1 Thursday, 19 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have the appearances
12 for the day. Starting with the Prosecution.
13 MR. THOMAS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
14 everybody in and around the courtroom. Mark Harmon, Barney Thomas, and
15 Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the Defence.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and to
18 everyone in the courtroom. Mr. Perisic is represented today in the
19 courtroom by Milos Androvic, Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, Novak Lukic, and our
20 case manager, Daniela Tasic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much Mr. Lukic. Good afternoon, sir.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you have a good rest last night?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do you feel today?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not bad, thank you. Better than
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. As and when you feel like you
4 need a break, don't hesitate to ask. Okay?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, I understand.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Once again I remind you that you are still bound
7 by the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS MP-014 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we begin,
14 Mr. Thomas and I agreed about two documents yesterday, that they can be
15 given numbers. So perhaps we can tender them now and then begin. We had
16 some problems that had to do with translation, and in the meantime we
17 agreed on two documents. And I think Mr. Thomas is going to tell you
18 which two documents this pertains to and perhaps then we can give these
19 documents exhibit numbers and then continue.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
21 Mr. Thomas.
22 MR. THOMAS: Yes, and I'm grateful for the assistance of my
23 learned friend in this regard. The first document is P593 which was
24 marked for identification. It was marked for identification on the
25 basis, and perhaps it should come up in e-court, Your Honour, because
1 there is something that should go into the record about this document.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's come up. You say it's P593. So it is an
3 admitted document?
4 MR. THOMAS: It was given a number and marked for identification,
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
7 MR. THOMAS: And if we could scroll to the bottom of both
8 versions of the document, please. Now, sir, Your Honours may recall if
9 we look at box 36
10 Latin characters to BCP
11 correctly translated as VSR
12 Serbian Republic
13 Prosecution accepts, Your Honour, that that -- that VSR does not stand
14 for Army of the Serbian Republic
15 the basis that effectively Your Honour should not take any notice of that
16 particular reference.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what must the Chamber make of the abbreviation
19 MR. THOMAS: On the face of the document, I don't believe there's
20 been any testimony about what that abbreviation means, but what it does
21 not mean is Army of the Serbian Republic
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Army of Serbian Republic is VRS.
23 MR. THOMAS: Yes, exactly.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you confirm, Mr. Lukic?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Then that P593 marked for
2 identification will be admitted into evidence as P593 subject to what
3 Mr. Thomas has said.
4 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour. The second document should
5 also come up in e-court, that was also given an exhibit number marked for
6 identification P610.
7 Now, if we look at the English translation, Your Honours, in the
8 section of the document that shows the addressees, Your Honours will see
9 the reference to the command of the 35th POB Logistics Base. There was
10 some confusion yesterday, the witness was not able to identify because of
11 the quality of the reproduction on the screen whether the same reference
12 existed in the B/C/S version. We have retrieved the original copy and
13 shown it to my learned friends where they are in agreement that the
14 reference does exist in the B/C/S version, and so we're agreed that the
15 document can be tendered on the basis that the English translation is an
16 accurate translation of the B/C/S version.
17 We do have the original available if that is ever needed to be
18 cited at any stage but because it has been retrieved from the vault for
19 the purposes of this examination I think we are satisfied. Well,
20 certainly the parties are happy to leave the scanned versions as they are
21 so long as Your Honours are happy with that correction on the record.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I did have the
23 opportunity to look at the original document and to compare, and I agree
24 that the document in this form is difficult to read in the B/C/S, but the
25 English translation is quite adequate.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. In that event,
2 then P610 will be admitted into evidence and removed from being marked
3 for identification.
4 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'm afraid
7 that I'm going to spend the bulk of today's cross-examination in private
8 or closed session, and in any case as soon as I have begun I would like
9 now to ask to move into private session.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
11 [Closed session]
11 Pages 3673-3700 redacted. Closed session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honours, for the record we are
7 in open session.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, ma'am, thank you so much. I jumped the
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First, I drew attention to the date
11 because there will be a series of these documents now with the same or
12 similar date, that was my first intention, but in fact I'm interested in
13 this information in box, I think it's box 13 where it says GS VJ.
14 Q. I wanted to ask, witness, if he thought that that was the same
15 handwriting, if the whole document is written in the same handwriting?
16 A. It seems to be the same handwriting. Probably the handlers were
17 filling in the list of receipt, so probably they filled it in.
18 Q. I cannot hear you through my headphones, I can only hear you like
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to look at Exhibit 845.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we leave this, exhibit, Mr. Lukic, you're
22 comparing handwritings and you are saying the handwritings are the same.
23 I'd like to know which handwritings you are comparing, and I'd like to
24 know from the witness on what basis he says that they are written by the
25 same person.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I went too fast.
2 Q. This document, sir, that we have just looked at, the information
3 on the sender should be filled in by the sender as a rule; is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that is what should be read in column, I don't see it very
7 well, I think it's column 13 where it says GS VJ, that is that
8 information, and also the military post, all of that should be filled in
9 by the sender; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All these boxes of the sender are empty except for the one where
12 it says GS VJ Kremna?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, if I may interrupt. I'm advised that at
15 some stage the witness spoke while your microphone was on, Mr. Lukic, and
16 the suspicion is that his voice might have gone out. I'm not quite sure
17 how we resolve the problem of the voice that has already gone out.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The Registrar will resolve that. Thank you
20 very much. You may proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. The senders column that you were explaining to us that should be
23 filled in by the sender, this is -- only the terms "GS VJ" and "Kremna"
24 are filled in, there is no date, there is no military post, there is no
25 seal or stamp or the signature of the sender; is that correct?
1 A. [No interpretation]
2 Q. And you would agree with me that the recipient who filled in the
3 other boxes including the evidence number, the date of receipt, and the
4 stamp of the receiver is the person who also filled in the information of
5 the dispatcher or the sender of the items?
6 A. If the Court would allow me to give a broader explanation, a
7 couple of sentences more.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Answer as you wish, sir.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the handler, and there was such
10 similar cases later about ammunition that came from Yugoslavia, if you
11 would only get one copy and that copy would usually stay in a
12 higher-ranking unit, specifically here we are talking about the Drina
13 Corps, the handler would -- when he made a record of receipt, he would
14 copy that from the list, then he would copy the right side, enter that
15 into the log-book, and the person who received the goods would sign for
17 However, in this list, if he did have the list, on the left side
18 he also would need to fill in the precise details as to which military
19 post these items came from. What most probably happened was that on the
20 list there was an order of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia,
21 and perhaps for some reason he was lazy or he didn't put anything on the
22 left side - I'm not going to go into the reasons - all he did was he
23 wrote the GS VJ abbreviation, meaning that he did have some order from
24 the General Staff, and then he would then additionally write the origin
25 of the ammunition.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can we make it so that the witness can see the entire document,
3 and then he can tell us where exactly he sees this GS VJ abbreviation?
4 A. There's nothing specifically in this document.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now can we show the witness a
6 document; 585, exhibit.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I've been trying to follow you, and I've
8 not followed you clearly. But on the question comparing handwritings, I
9 don't know when you talk about the left-hand side or the right-hand side
10 how far you go to the left and how far you go to the right. But if you
11 go to the B/C/S document that's before us, you'll see where the materiel
12 is being listed, where we talk of 7.62 millimetre and then explain the
13 materiel. Look at how that 7 is written, and go to the next column to
14 the right, which has just got figures, and look at the 7s there. The 7s
15 on that side have got a cross in the middle which the 7s on the left-hand
16 side do not have. And if you look at the 7 on the right-hand top corner,
17 the second from the end, 2117 is exactly the same -- well, not exactly
18 the same, but it is similar to the 7s on the left. Similarly when you
19 look at 7111.
20 So I would like to know the basis on which it is being said that
21 this form was filled in by one and the same person from beginning to end?
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, we will ask the question to
23 clarify, Your Honour. Perhaps I was imprecise. What I would like to
24 know in order to prove or to present my case is the facts that are
25 entered under "Sender." Perhaps it's my mistake because I did not focus
1 on the numbers. But what I am putting to the witness is that the
2 information on the sender and the receiver was filled in in this
3 particular case by the receiver?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which one is the sender and which one is the
5 receiver? I can see sender, name and address of sender GS VJ. Which one
6 is receiver?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The left-hand side of the form where
8 it says GS VJ, that should be the sender. The receiver is box number 14
9 where it says "Command of the Drina Corps Tisca." So it is my case or my
10 argument that this particular portion was filled by the same person. In
11 other words, that the receiver filled in the date of receipt, as you can
12 see top right there is the date 25/11/1993
13 number under which these items were recorded, 2117-2-95 in Han Pijesak.
14 All of this in the right upper corner, and also the military post of the
15 receiver, 7111, and that this person actually filled also in the
16 information for the sender, GS VJ. That is what I am put together the
18 I assume that the handlers or the administrators who were
19 handling the ammunition, maybe two of them were working on it and one of
20 them was filling out the quantities and so on. This in itself is not of
21 great importance to me. What is important and what I'm trying to show
22 here is that this was in fact filled out by the receiving party.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe we will talk more about it at the time of
24 argument. That's fine. You may proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. All right. Witness, do you agree with me that this was -- that
2 this name of the sender, GS VJ, was actually filled out by the receiving
3 party, by the person who received the items?
4 A. We should focus on the top of the list, where it says "materiel
5 list for" and then it says "receipt." If ammunition was sent to someone,
6 then here in this heading it should say "materiel list for sending." In
7 other words, the materiel list would have been filled in by the sending
8 party. Here, whenever we see "receipt" it means that was filled in by
9 the handler who received the items. And if we have both sides filled
10 out, then that means that the list is the original list, the original
12 Q. I agree. My next question is very short. Was the receiving
13 party authorised to fill in the boxes that are meant for the sending
14 party? Just answer yes or no?
15 A. I cannot answer with just yes and no.
16 Q. I would like to hear your answer just in brief. And if you'd
17 like to explain further, Mr. Thomas may want to put the questions to you
18 in redirect.
19 Now, I'm just asking you under the rules is the receiving party
20 authorised to fill out any boxes meant for the sending party, yes or no?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
22 MR. THOMAS: I am sorry, Your Honour, the witness has made it
23 very clear that the answer cannot be given by a straightforward yes or
24 no, and it's not an appropriate response to say if there's any
25 qualification, we'll save it for re-examination. The witness has been
1 very clear that he can't answer the question in that way. He should be
2 permitted to answer it in the way which he considers it needs to be
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree.
6 Q. Sir, you may give us an answer but be careful we are in open
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... of that
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, we are just discussing this in
11 general, so I think it wouldn't really be necessary.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The administrator when he drew up
13 this delivery sheet for receipt had to fill in the field where it says
14 where the origin of the ammunition is from. So he did have the right or
15 the authority to fill out -- to indicate where the ammunition had
16 originated so that he would have this information about where the
17 ammunition had come from, but this list is not clear. We've discussed
18 this already yesterday, the GS VJ, it should have been noted at the
19 bottom as a note, a comment.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Another question. The handler or administrator, was he
22 authorised to receive, to accept the materiel list that wasn't filled out
23 by the issuing party?
24 A. Well, of course he was allowed to because all he wanted to make
25 sure was that the issue corresponded to what was written on the paper.
1 So he just had to justify whatever he had in stock, that had to
2 correspond to what was on the paper. The handler really nobody
3 authorised him for anything else nor asked him to do anything else.
4 Q. Yes, but if the materiel list is blank, then he wouldn't know
5 where the materiel had come from?
6 A. Well, if the materiel list was blank, he couldn't know where the
7 materiel or ammunition had come from unless he was told by one of his
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right. Now, let's take a look
10 at P594 MFI
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I resume? Could we see now
13 briefly the following document, 577.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I got no translation.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Could we now briefly see document P577 on the screens. So
17 let's -- just briefly, can you see an order from the Chief of General
18 Staff anywhere on this form?
19 A. No, you cannot see the number of such an order anywhere on this
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just scroll this a bit to
22 the right so the date appears.
23 Q. I will just read this out for you and you will tell us. This was
24 received by the command of the Drina
25 is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see document P578,
4 Q. Would you agree with me that this is an identical document that
5 the command of the Drina Corps received on the same day, at least that's
6 what it says here, from the VJ, from Bogovadja, something, and that the
7 same person filled out this form, the portion at least where the issuing
8 party is mentioned; is that correct?
9 A. That's correct, but it doesn't say the Chief of General Staff, it
10 just says the Yugoslav Army.
11 Q. That's right.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see document
14 Q. A day before on the 21st of -- on the 22nd of November, 1994 [as
15 interpreted], the same command, the Drina Corps, confirms that it had
16 received this ammunition, and as the issuing party mention is made of GS
17 VJ, the General Staff, Lunjevica, and the same person filled out both the
18 sender and the receiver part of the document; is that correct?
19 A. That's correct. Most of these lists were filled out by the same
20 handler or administrator, the ones we've seen so far.
21 Q. And you can confirm that there is no mention made here of any
22 order by the Chief of General Staff?
23 A. Yes. There is no confirmation anywhere that this was issued by
24 the orders of the Chief of General Staff. All it says is GS VJ.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Another document, P572. Exhibit 572.
1 Q. The same question for you, sir. The date here -- if we can just
2 scroll it to the right a bit so we can see the date. The Drina Corps
3 command, the 22nd of November, 1993; in other words, the same date as the
4 previous document. There is also no order from the Chief of Staff of the
5 General Staff anywhere in this document; correct?
6 A. No order is mentioned, but the list that we can see now, as we
7 can see the dates are all similar or maybe even the same, which means
8 that if we have the same lists dated on the same day and coming from
9 different military posts, this means that on the same day ammunition was
10 received from various warehouses, various military posts.
11 Q. But in none of these documents did we see the military post of
12 the issuing party; is that correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And again we see that the same person filled out both sides, the
15 issuing party side and the receiving party side.
16 Can we just scroll it now a bit to the left to compare.
17 A. Well, this is standard. The same person filled out this list and
18 completed this form.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a correction in
20 the transcript. Page 42, line 11. 1994 is mentioned as the year, but in
21 fact from the documents we could see that it was 1993, and I apologise to
22 the interpreters.
23 Q. I won't go through the documents. There are three remaining
24 exhibits here, I won't go through them all with the witness, but I do
25 have a question for you, Witness, regarding these documents. Just a
1 moment, please.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please move into private
3 session, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
5 [Closed session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. We saw in these documents a little earlier that practically they
25 all were compiled on the same date or thereabouts. They were all from
1 the 22nd from the 25th of November in 1993, and they were all received by
2 the Drina Corps; correct?
3 A. This is how it's stated in the documents.
4 Q. Yesterday, or the day before yesterday as well, you confirmed
5 that supplies and deliveries from Yugoslavia
6 there were more offensive activities or intensified conflict in a certain
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recall that at the end of 1993 there was intensive
10 fighting in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps?
11 A. I think it was around the area of Skelani in Srebrenica, but I'm
12 not quite sure.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let's see P594, page 2,
14 please. Could it be retrieved on the screen. And the previous --
15 preceding page in the B/C/S version, please, I'm sorry.
16 Your Honours, this is the linguistic problem that you used to
17 have, so I'd like to clarify it with the witness, and I've discussed this
18 with the interpreters, and I hope that we are going to find a common word
19 for the word "discharge," "razduzenje."
20 Q. Witness, it says here --
21 A. I remember this document from yesterday, and I remember what it
11 Pages 3714 redacted.
5 [Closed session]
11 Pages 3716-3749 redacted. Closed session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. At the beginning of today's
4 session I omitted to mention that Judge David is still indisposed and
5 that we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis. May the record show that we
6 are still sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis today for the same reasons.
7 Mr. Thomas.
8 MR. THOMAS: I'll defer to Mr. Harmon in terms of the
9 arrangements for next week, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'll need to go into private session to
12 discuss the arrangements for next week.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 3751-3753 redacted. Private session.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned sine die at
13 6.56 p.m.