Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4019

 1                           Thursday, 5 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Good afternoon, Your

 8     Honours.  Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.  This

 9     is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank

10     you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

12     today starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

14     everybody in and around the courtroom.  Barney Thomas, Salvatore Cannata,

15     and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas.  And for the

17     Defence.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, and all in the

19     courtroom and about the courtroom.  Milos Androvic, Daniela Tasic, Chad

20     Mair, Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith for the Defence.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do I call you, Mr. Thomas, or do I call

22     Mr. Cannata?

23             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, me.  Thank you.  Before Dr. Mandilovic

24     returns to continue with his testimony, there is a matter arising out of

25     his testimony yesterday which I would want to raise before Your Honours.

Page 4020

 1     First of all, I hope Your Honours don't mind hearing from me instead of

 2     Mr. Cannata who led Dr. Mandilovic.  I've made --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm just wondering why.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  I've made my peace with him about that, sir.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He's made his peace with you.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Well, that's yet to be determined, actually.  I hope

 7     we will get there.

 8             The issue concerns the basis upon which a number of exhibits were

 9     tendered.  Particularly the distinction, if any, to be drawn between the

10     ability to which or the extent to which Dr. Mandilovic could testify as

11     to the truth of the contents of certain medical records, as against the

12     ability of Your Honours to rely upon the contents of the medical records.

13             The -- Your Honours will recall that there were a number of

14     medical records admitted ultimately without objection and without --

15     without any conditions.  And that there then began a process of admitting

16     documents, medical records from medical facilities on certain conditions.

17     The first time that these conditions were alluded to was in response or

18     in the context of an objection made by my learned friend, and I'm

19     referring, Your Honours, to page 4013 of yesterday's transcript at line

20     16.  And if Your Honours don't have that available to you, I can read it

21     into the record.  Mr. Cannata attempted to tender as an exhibit 65 ter

22     number 8692 and then Mr. Guy-Smith objected, and I'm quoting now from the

23     transcript:

24              "With regard to 65 ter 8692, to the extent that the document is

25     being offered through this witness as an accurate reflection of records,

Page 4021

 1     there is no objection.  To the extent this document is being offered with

 2     regard to the truth of the contents that is contained within these

 3     records, there is an objection."

 4             The response of Mr. Cannata was:

 5             "Your Honours.  Yes, the Prosecution position is that

 6     Dr. Mandilovic is for these documents entitled to speak only to the -- to

 7     attest the accuracy and the validity and the fact that the documents, the

 8     medical records are authentic copies issued by the clinical centre.  He

 9     will not give evidence as to the contents of the documents."

10             And then my learned friend responds saying:

11             "Understanding that they are not being offered for that purpose,

12     I have no objection."

13             Now, the critical point of my submission is that the

14     Prosecution's position is that Mr. Mandilovic can't speak truth of the

15     contents of these documents, and of course that's obvious, he wasn't

16     involved in treating the patients concerned.  Within that it had a series

17     of documents being produced along largely formulaic lines such as my

18     learned friend suggesting, for example, the next time a document was

19     tendered for admission, and I'm quoting from line 17, page 4014:

20             "If this document is being proposed under the same conditions as

21     last document, there is no objection.  Once again, not to speak to the

22     truth of the contents contained in the document itself."

23             The Prosecution agrees, and we have a number of documents being

24     tendered in that way.

25             So it would appear that the basis, the understood basis - at

Page 4022

 1     least on the record that these documents are going in - is that they have

 2     been authenticated by Dr. Mandilovic, but he himself personally cannot

 3     attest to the truth of the contents.

 4             The difficulty arises with the admission of the very last

 5     document of the session.  And I'm quoting, Your Honours, from page 4017,

 6     beginning at line 8, and we are dealing with the final document of the

 7     day.  Mr. Cannata moved for its admission, and my learned friend

 8     responded as follows, and this is at line 11 on page 4017:

 9             "With the same condition as the previous documents, there would

10     be no objection, which is that he is not," and then he stopped and said

11     "these documents are not being offered for the truth of the contents

12     contained therein."

13             Now, the difficulty, sir, is that that's the first time this

14     formulation of these documents are not being offered for the truth of

15     their contents appears on the record.  There is a difference between

16     Dr. Mandilovic not being able to attest to the truth of the contents and

17     the documents themselves being evidence of the truth of their contents,

18     as a record properly admitted for Your Honours to consider.  It may be

19     that Your Honours consider that you can rely on these documents for the

20     truth of their contents, for demonstrating, for example, that a

21     particular person was treated at a particular facility on a particular

22     date.

23             So the reason why I raise this is because there appears to be a

24     conflict on the record in terms of the basis upon which these documents

25     are being tendered.  Because if they are being tendered on the basis that

Page 4023

 1     Your Honours simply can't consider them at all for the truth of their

 2     contents, then we have a difficulty because plainly that's not why they

 3     are being admitted.

 4             Also, this was not a formulation that appeared prior to the very

 5     last exhibit.  And I wouldn't want to be in a position where any party is

 6     operating on the basis that Your Honours are not entitled to place

 7     whatever weight you wish upon the contents of these documents on the

 8     bases that they are properly admitted through Dr. Mandilovic.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is Mr. Cannata's response to that last

10     formulation.

11             MR. THOMAS:  Same conditions as before, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you done?

13             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I believe that Mr. Thomas in his submission

16     both misapprehends and misunderstands what the transcript says.

17     Referring to the first time the objection came up, I say the following at

18     page line [sic].

19               "To the extent this document is being offered with regard to

20     the truth of the contents that is contained within these records, there

21     is an objection."

22             The next time I speak to it, which is at line 19, I say.

23             "Understanding that they are not being offered for that purpose,

24     the purpose being my original objection, the document being offered with

25     regard to the truth of the contents that is contained within these

Page 4024

 1     records."

 2             And finally, the last time, I say:

 3             "With the same condition as the previous documents, there would

 4     be no objection."  That is at page 417, which is that he is not, and then

 5     I say, as Mr. Thomas correctly points out "these document are not being

 6     offered for the truth of the contents contained therein."

 7             There is no difference between the meaning of with regard to the

 8     truth of the contents that is contained within these records, which is my

 9     very first objection, and the statement these documents are not being

10     offered for the truth of the contents contained therein; although, it is

11     not precisely the same language.  It's certainly is exact same objection

12     with the exact same intent and the Prosecution, in each and every time

13     this was raised, made their position clear which was they were not

14     offering the documents for the truth of the contents contained therein.

15             So I do not share Mr. Thomas's perception or apprehension with

16     regard to what was the Prosecution position with regard to the proffering

17     of these documents.  I recall that the Chamber at one point made it very

18     clear to me, and I don't have the exact line, but that I should not tell

19     the Prosecution how to prosecute its case.  And I won't.  But it's -- the

20     objection is clear, the intent was clear from the beginning to the end,

21     and the Prosecution agreed and made very clear what they were doing in

22     this regard.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any reply, Mr. Thomas.

24             MR. THOMAS:  Well, my learned friends is right if one looks at

25     his original objection and then the formulation which followed.  But he

Page 4025

 1     misses a step, and I'm not suggesting for a moment that he wasn't

 2     justified or he isn't justified in taking the position that he takes now,

 3     but in my submission what I'm trying to alert Your Honours to is that

 4     plainly there are two different interpretations now occurring of what --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But that's precisely what your learned friend is

 6     contesting.  He says that it's no different -- there are no different

 7     interpretations.  Can I just read those two, just the two times that he

 8     raised the objections, the first one and the last one.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you just read them as they stand in the text?

11     No, not now, there in that transcript that you have in your hands.

12             MR. THOMAS:  The first time.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What did he say?

14             MR. THOMAS:  He said:

15             "With regard to 65 ter 8692, to the extent that the document is

16     being offered through this witness as an accurate reflection of records,

17     there is no objection.  To the extent this document is being offered with

18     regard to the truth of the contents that is contained within these

19     records, there is an objection."

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

21             MR. THOMAS:  That's not where that exchange ends, however, Your

22     Honour, but I will go to the last objection.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But that's where that objection arises.  He says

24     to the extent they are being tendered for the truthfulness of the

25     contents there is an objection.

Page 4026

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what does the last one say?

 3             MR. THOMAS:  The last one says:

 4             "With the same condition as the previous documents, there would

 5     be no objection, which is that he is not -- these document are not being

 6     offered for the truth of the contents contained therein."

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what is the difference between that statement

 8     and the first statement?

 9             MR. THOMAS:  The difference between that statement and the first

10     statement is what happens immediately after the first statement, which

11     that the response of the Prosecution to that first objection was this:

12             "Your Honours.  Yes, the Prosecution position is that

13     Dr. Mandilovic is for these documents entitled to speak only to the -- to

14     attest the accuracy and the validity and the fact that the documents, the

15     medical records are authentic copies issued by the clinical centre.  He

16     will not give evidence as to the contents of the documents."

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fair enough.  Now, Mr. Cannata misaddresses

18     himself to the issue raised by the opposite side.  Now, must the opposite

19     side take blame for that?  He is addressing what in his understanding

20     Dr. Mandilovic can do.  The objection is against the truthfulness of the

21     contents of the documents.

22             MR. THOMAS:  I don't disagree with that, sir, but for the next

23     response from Mr. Guy-Smith which was:

24             "Understanding that they are not being offered for that purpose,

25     I have no objection."

Page 4027

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, yeah, now we are getting into semantics.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  The difficulty, yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The difficulty here is that he is now

 4     misunderstanding --

 5             MR. THOMAS:  Mr. Cannata --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata misunderstands him --

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- and he misunderstands Mr. Cannata to be

 9     agreeing with him.

10             MR. THOMAS:  Exactly.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where do we -- what relief do you ask for?

12             MR. THOMAS:  The relief I seek, sir, is that the Prosecution be

13     entitled to tender the documents on the basis that it thought it was

14     tendering them on.  And that if my learned friend has an objection to

15     that, that we hear argument on the objection and Your Honours rule.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me just read.  Mr. Guy-Smith, do you hear what

17     the relief sought is, do you have any response to that?  On the relief

18     sought, not on the objection?

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I would argue against the relief sought

20     because I don't share Mr. Thomas's -- what I consider to be Monday

21     morning quarterbacking here.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Monday morning?

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Monday morning quarterbacking.  It's an American

24     phrase dealing with -- there's always football game on Sunday, and on

25     Monday there's an examination of the game, which is what I think is going

Page 4028

 1     on here.

 2             I believe that the procedure that was followed here, the

 3     objection is made, the proffer made by the Prosecution particularly in

 4     light of -- now, I'm speaking about what happened in a prior proceeding

 5     since he is a 92 ter witness, and this issue had been discussed in the

 6     Milosevic matter, and I alerted the Court to the pages of it, that it's

 7     inappropriate to be rehashing evidentiary rulings as we go along.  There

 8     has to be some consistency of approach here.

 9             If we want to wipe the slate clean and start over again with the

10     testimony of this particular witness, there are a series of other

11     evidentiary issues that could have arisen --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry to interrupt.  Can you confine yourself

13     to the relief sought.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yeah, I object to it.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber has listened to arguments on both

18     sides, and has decided this is a matter that does not require any ruling

19     in the court by the Trial Chamber, and the Trial Chamber will attend to

20     and address the arguments of the parties and interpret the documents in

21     the light of the arguments that have been placed before it when it looks

22     at the papers at the appropriate time.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  In which case, we can have

24     Dr. Mandilovic brought in to continue his testimony.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May we please call the witness in.

Page 4029

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, Dr. Mandilovic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may please sit down.  Doctor, just to remind

 5     you, first of all, let me apologise to you for keeping you waiting until

 6     this time.  We had said we will start at quarter past, but due to

 7     unforeseen circumstances and administrative matters that had to be

 8     attended to, we had to ask you to wait a little bit.  Thank you very

 9     much.  I see you are nodding.

10             Just to remind you again that you are still by the declaration

11     that you made at the beginning of your testimony yesterday to tell the

12     truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.  Thank you.

13             Mr. Cannata, is it you or is it?  Are we in cross?

14             MR. CANNATA:  Yes, Your Honour, it's Mr. Guy-Smith.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith, that's you.  Thank you very

16     much.

17                           WITNESS:  MILAN MANDILOVIC [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I wasn't sure whether

20     there were any last remarks Mr. Cannata wanted to make before I started

21     based by the way we -- when we ended yesterday, I wasn't sure whether

22     there were any last remarks or questions that Mr. Cannata had, but

23     apparently I'm up.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are up.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

Page 4030

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, Doctor.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   As I understand your testimony, you are a specialist in a

 4     particular type of medicine; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, you are right.

 6        Q.   And that is ENT; correct?  And I'm going to ask you what ENT

 7     stands for?

 8        A.   Yes, correct.

 9        Q.   And what does ENT stand for, sir?

10        A.   ENT is ear, nose, throat.  I am a surgeon, I've been a surgeon

11     for a long time, specialising in head and neck surgery, and to be more

12     specific, I specialise in the surgery of ear, nose, and throat.

13        Q.   Before the war started, that was also your specialty; correct?

14        A.   Yes, correct.

15        Q.   And before the war started, did you work at the State Hospital?

16     I'm sorry, you seem to have jumped to the microphone, so did I miss

17     anything?

18        A.   No, I'm okay.  I'm perfectly okay.  And I am all ears.  I'm

19     listening to your question.

20        Q.   And before the war started, did you work at the state hospital?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   Before the war started, was the State Hospital a civilian

23     hospital or a military hospital?

24        A.   Before the war started, it was a military hospital.

25        Q.   And whilst you were working at the hospital before the war

Page 4031

 1     started, while it was a military hospital, were you working at the

 2     hospital as a civilian doctor or as a military doctor?

 3        A.   I was a military doctor.

 4        Q.   And was that a military doctor with the JNA or with some other

 5     military service?

 6        A.   I was with the JNA.

 7        Q.   Did there come a point in time when you left the JNA before the

 8     war started?

 9        A.   Yes.  I left the JNA.

10        Q.   And when did you leave the JNA?

11        A.   On the 2nd of May, 1992.

12        Q.   And when you left the JNA on the 2nd of May, 1992, did you have a

13     particular rank at that time?

14        A.   Before that time I had a rank -- I apologise.  I don't think you

15     have phrased your question very well.

16        Q.   Well, then my apologies to you, let me rephrase my question.  And

17     I thank you for the correction.

18             On the 2nd of May, 1992, when you left the JNA, what rank did you

19     have in the JNA, if any?

20        A.   I was a major.

21        Q.   And when you left the JNA on the 2nd of May, 1992, as a major,

22     did you have any difficulties in leaving the JNA?  And by that I mean,

23     did your commanding officer attempt to bar you from doing so?

24        A.   No.  I had no problem, none whatsoever.

25        Q.   Did there come a point this time when the military hospital

Page 4032

 1     became a civilian hospital in May of 1992?

 2        A.   The military hospital was transformed into a civilian hospital on

 3     the 10th of May, 1992.

 4        Q.   At the time that the military hospital was transformed into a

 5     civilian hospital on the 10th of May, 1992, were the supplies that were

 6     at the hospital taken from the hospital by the JNA?  I'm sorry, that's

 7     assuming something that I perhaps should not assume.

 8             On the 10th of May, 1992, when the hospital transformed into a

 9     civilian hospital, did the JNA militarily leave the hospital?

10        A.   The JNA did leave the hospital but they did not take any medical

11     supplies, equipment, or prescription drugs.

12        Q.   I take it by that it would be fair to assume that when the

13     hospital metamorphised from a military hospital into a state hospital, it

14     was in such a state as to continue engaging in medical work; correct?

15        A.   It's a fairly complex question.  There was equipment, certain

16     material because equipment, supplies in the medical sense, replenished

17     periodically.  We can't claim that when the JNA left the hospital that it

18     didn't take anything with it, that's correct, but we didn't have many

19     supplies.  There were supplies only for a certain period of time, so we

20     could conditionally say that the newly transformed hospital continued

21     with its work, but it couldn't work with the existing supplies for a

22     lengthy period of time.

23        Q.   Understood.  When the JNA left the hospital and the hospital

24     transformed into a civilian hospital, did you remain in essentially the

25     same position that you had been in while the hospital had been a military

Page 4033

 1     hospital?  And by that I mean the head of the department of the ENT?

 2        A.   In professional terms I maintained the position that I had.

 3     However, not in medical terms --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  If the interpreter heard the witness correctly.

 5        Q.   Would it be fair to say that in medical terms what occurred is --

 6     would it be fair to say what occurred in medical terms is that your

 7     duties were expanded?

 8        A.   My duties, I'm talking about my professional duties, were

 9     expanded.  With time the war escalated, there were more wounded and sick

10     people, and therefore my medical duties were expanded.  That's the case

11     in every war.  I was no longer just a specialist, surgical specialist for

12     ENT.  I had to become involved in other medical duties as well.  I wasn't

13     just an ear, nose, and throat specialist.

14        Q.   Did your duties include maintaining hospital records?  And by

15     that I mean, did you personally maintain hospital records for the entire

16     State Hospital?

17        A.   No, no.  I had absolutely nothing to do with the records

18     maintained.

19        Q.   Did you continue to be the head of a department which maintained

20     records within the hospital administration?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was he ever the head of a department which

22     maintained records?

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, perhaps I got ahead of myself.  I'll ask

24     the question, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Were you ever the head of a department which maintained records,

Page 4034

 1     and I perhaps in that regard --

 2        A.   Never.  I'm an ear, nose, and throat surgeon.  I was the head of

 3     the ward that was involved exclusively in treating ear, nose, and throat

 4     illnesses.

 5        Q.   Did you maintain as the head of the department for ear, nose --

 6     as an ear, nose, and throat surgeon particular protocols with regard to

 7     the activities that you performed at the State Hospital?

 8        A.   Absolutely.  Absolutely.

 9        Q.   Were you the custodian of those records, sir?

10        A.   Yes, for one year.  Later, these records were handed over to the

11     archives.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, with regard to the records that you have testified

13     about here, are those records that you brought with you when you

14     testified in the very first case that you came to testify to, and by that

15     I mean did you bring those records physically with you?

16        A.   Sir, I didn't have any --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry, sorry, Doctor.  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

18             MR. CANNATA:  Yes, can I have a qualification.  Those records --

19     well, Dr. Mandilovic testified about documents which were tendered in the

20     Dragan Milosevic case, and I take that my learned friend referred to that

21     -- his testimony in the Galic case, when he says at page 16, line 5 when

22     he says, "You testified in the very first case."  Now, can I have

23     clarification --

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm more than happy to clarify.

25        Q.   With regards to the records that you testify to concerning the

Page 4035

 1     Milosevic case, are those records that you brought with you when you came

 2     to testify in the Milosevic case?

 3        A.   No, absolutely not, I didn't bring any documents with me.  It

 4     wasn't even possible for me to obtain those medical documents.

 5        Q.   The documents that you testified to in the Milosevic case, and

 6     the documents that you have testified to in this case came from, as I

 7     understand it, two separate hospital entities; is that correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   One hospital entity was the State Hospital where you worked;

10     correct?

11        A.   Absolutely.

12        Q.   And the other hospital entity is a hospital where you did not

13     work; correct?

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   Now, with regard to the issue of records, am I correct in my

16     understanding that records are contained in what could be called a

17     hospital book?

18        A.   Yes, hospital protocol, that's what we call it.

19        Q.   And am I correct also that the -- one of the hospital that you

20     mentioned in your testimony yesterday went by another name and that is

21     the name Kosevo Hospital; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, the Kosevo Clinical Centre.

23        Q.   Okay.  And with regard to the medical records from the Kosevo

24     Hospital, you testified in a prior proceeding in the Milosevic case, I

25     refer the Court and counsel to page 577, lines 1 through 4 as follows to

Page 4036

 1     the following question asked by you -- asked of you by the Prosecution:

 2             "Q. And with respect to hospital medical records from the Kosevo

 3     Hospital, did you ever have occasion to see such records?"

 4             And your answer was:

 5             "Of course, very often.  I don't mean their actual hospital books

 6     and records, but I did see on many occasions their medical reports and

 7     findings by their physicians."

 8             Do you maintain that testimony as you sit here today?

 9        A.   I stand by that testimony.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have -- if we could have I think it's

12     65 ter 09244 up on the screen, please.

13        Q.   And while that's coming up, during the period of time that you

14     were working as a doctor in Sarajevo, were you aware of the fact that

15     there was a tunnel that existed by which people could leave the city?

16        A.   That tunnel, if you have the tunnel beneath the airstrip in mind,

17     that tunnel was constructed in the course of the war.  You say that

18     people were able to leave the town, but the tunnel was under strict

19     control.  It wasn't easy to pass through the tunnel.  It was used for the

20     army, the Bosnian army.  They could pass through the tunnel and supplies

21     could be taken through the tunnel, but private individuals couldn't use

22     the tunnel.

23        Q.   I see.  My apologies, I understand.  The tunnel that existed when

24     you say it was under the control of the army, is -- did you ever -- first

25     of all, did you ever go to this tunnel?

Page 4037

 1        A.   Never.

 2        Q.   Did you, in your position at the hospital, receive any medical

 3     supplies from the army that came through the tunnel, to your knowledge?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of that.  I don't know how the hospital found

 5     medical supplies, how it obtained those supplies.  I can't be certain,

 6     but I think that to a large extent the French Battalion, the French

 7     forces under UNPROFOR that were in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time

 8     provided them with supplies.  As for the tunnel, well, I really don't

 9     know.  I'm not familiar with those details, I wasn't involved in that.

10        Q.   Would it be fair to say that during your tenure at the hospital,

11     during the war years - and I'm referring to the war years - that you did

12     receive supplies from UNPROFOR from -- no matter whether they be French

13     or other parts of UNPROFOR, and by that I mean other nationalities who

14     are part of UNPROFOR?

15        A.   I understand your question, but although I have all the goodwill

16     that is needed, I can't answer your question.  I didn't involve myself in

17     that field.  I didn't have such authority and I wasn't involved in that.

18     I was only involved in professional matters.

19        Q.   Very well.  If we can't take it any further, we shan't take it

20     any further.

21             If you could take a look at the map here, and I know it's kind of

22     small and if we need to make it bigger, I'm happy to do that.  Looking at

23     this map can you, first of all, recognise this as being a map of, what I

24     would say is Sarajevo and central Sarajevo?

25        A.   Yes, this is a map of Sarajevo, but it's not very clear.

Page 4038

 1        Q.   Looking at the map in its present condition, can you identify on

 2     the map where the State Hospital is that you worked at, or would it be

 3     better if it was enlarged, because we can enlarge the map?

 4        A.   I'd be grateful if you could enlarge it.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Without enlarging it in gross, is there some specific

 6     portion of the map that would be helpful to be enlarged?  And you'll

 7     notice there are a number of longitudinal and latitudinal lines on the

 8     map also which create boxes.  So starting on the left-hand side of the

 9     map, if we count the number of box, would it be helpful to enlarge some

10     particular part of it for you, sir?

11        A.   It would be useful if we could zoom in and enlarge the central

12     part where there is a lot of black, a little further to the left, just

13     the central part of the town.  A little lower down.  No, no, no.

14        Q.   Would you like to go the other way?

15        A.   Yes.  About here.  No, here.  I think you've gone too far aware.

16     Try and enlarge this part.  Stop there.  Could you scroll a bit to the

17     right, this is not the area.  No, to the other side.  Stop there.

18        Q.   Looking at this part of the map, is -- are you able to identify

19     using this map where the State Hospital would be?

20        A.   Here it is.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Can we get assistance from the usher now, then.

22     I'm going to have the usher --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's here.  It's about here.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:

25        Q.   If you could mark the area where the hospital is with an H for

Page 4039

 1     hospital.  Great, you circle and if you mark, make it an SH for State

 2     Hospital.  Good.  H will work.

 3        A.   SH, SH.

 4        Q.   State Hospital.

 5        A.   [In English] State Hospital, yes.

 6        Q.   Perfect.  Now, with regard to the position of the State Hospital,

 7     between September of 1992 and spring of 1993 using this particular map,

 8     can you -- can you help us with where the confrontation lines were to the

 9     east of the hospital, assuming that I'm accurate with regard to there

10     being confrontation line east of the hospital?

11        A.   [Interpretation] I don't think you are right, sir.  The main

12     problem for the State Hospital came from the south.  That's from the

13     Trebevic mountains, the Jewish cemetery, Grbavica, from that direction.

14     That was the main problem, the limits, the borders to the east, the lines

15     to the east were quite far away.

16        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

17        A.   If I may add something?

18        Q.   Sure.

19        A.   In the context of what I have said, you could also make use of --

20     some photographs of the hospital would show that the destruction was

21     greatest south of the hospital, and the destruction was not that

22     significant on the other sides, in the other directions from the

23     hospital.

24        Q.   Let me ask --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

Page 4040

 1             MR. CANNATA:  I am sorry to interrupt.  Can I have a correction

 2     on the transcript, maybe we can re-ask the same question to the witness.

 3     Page 21, line 2, I understood from the translation that it was Mount

 4     Trebevic page 21, line 2.  And that it not accurately reported in the

 5     transcript, can we have it clarified, please.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We'll have to go back to the audio, because I'm

 7     not positive that Mr. Cannata is accurate.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Line 2, as I read it says:

 9             "I don't think you are right, sir --"

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon.

12             "I don't think you are right, sir.  The main problem for the

13     state," that's line 2.

14             Then line 3 continues:

15             "Hospital came from the south, that's interest the Trebevic," and

16     then something is missed, and then "... mountains, the Jewish cemetery,"

17     and then something is missed, "... that was the problem."

18             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, I have page 21, line 2, and my point

19     is that the mountains, Trebevic, is not the correct interpretation.  At

20     this stage if it cannot be clarified, I would ask the audiotape to be

21     checked.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, it can be clarified.  The question can be put

23     back to the witness and he can answer.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If it's a point of a need of clarification, I'm

25     happy to do it.

Page 4041

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I believe you can just ask the question again, let

 2     the witness answer.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 4        Q.   Doctor, there seems to be some confusion with regard to the issue

 5     of the mountain.  Could you kindly tell us which mountain it is?

 6        A.   Naturally, of course.  The Trebevic mountain, the slopes of the

 7     Trebevic mountain.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, if we could have this map as the

 9     defendant's next in order.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The map is admitted into evidence.  May it please

11     be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  That document shall be given

13     Exhibit number D59.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  I'm done with that map at this time.  We

16     can take it off the screen.

17        Q.   I'd like to see whether or not the following is correct because

18     perhaps I'm misunderstanding your testimony, sir.  And I'm referring the

19     Court and counsel to page 1014 and 1015 of the Galic trial.  Starting at

20     line 19 --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do we have the Galic trial transcript?

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I trust that you do.  I'm going to read it

23     verbatim.  You don't?  Great.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, was it distributed?  Was it disclosed to us?

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.  It was and it is P632.  It's P632.

Page 4042

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P632.  P632, are you calling that exhibit?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yeah, that's right, because you asked whether you

 3     had it or not, and I'm noting it's P632.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, okay.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Page 1014, which I believe is page 8 of 26 in the

 6     electronic version.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So that's the exhibit you are calling, P632?

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   You were asked the following question and gave the following

10     answer, and that's with regard to issue of the confrontation to the east,

11     which is:

12             "Q. Were there any other confrontation lines in that -- well,

13     close to the hospital, say on the east, the west, or the north?

14             "A. Yes, of course there were.  Yes, because the city of Sarajevo

15     is not a large city in terms of space, and these were mostly in the old

16     part of town, the centre of town, and parts closer to the old part of

17     town so that in practical terms, towards the east is the end of town

18     which is encircled by the mountains.  And so quite certainly towards the

19     east of the hospital there were military conflicts going on."

20             First of all, just with regard to the directional issue:  Is the

21     statement that you made in the Galic trial in response to a question by

22     the Prosecutor concerning conflicts accurate, that there were military

23     conflicts east of the hospital?

24        A.   Well, look, there's something I would like to explain to you,

25     sir.

Page 4043

 1        Q.   Excuse me, sir, you are more than welcome to explain any answer

 2     that you wish to give, but I have a specific question with regard to your

 3     prior testimony in a proceeding before the Tribunal when the issue of the

 4     direction and the confrontation lines came up.  So my first question is,

 5     is this testimony accurate, the answer that you gave in the Galic case an

 6     accurate answer?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, I understand that you wish to explain something.  Is

 9     what you wish to explain with regard to the issue of direction, by that I

10     mean north, south, east, or west?

11        A.   That's right, with your leave, of course.

12        Q.   Absolutely, I have no desire to inhibit your testimony.

13        A.   Thank you very much.  Thank you very much.  Sir, in one of your

14     previous questions you asked me where the most frequent --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness didn't end the sentence.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already said that Sarajevo

17     is fairly small town surrounded by mountains.  It was fully encircled and

18     there was fighting ongoing on all sides.  There's no dilemma about.

19     However, if you ask me where the most frequent attacks on the hospital

20     came from, then the answer is from the south.  If you have photographs

21     from prior -- previous periods from other trials that you can see those

22     photographs that show the destruction, terrible destruction on that side.

23     The building is a 12-floor building, and naturally it was hit by shells

24     from other directions since it was totally encircled, but the southern

25     side was the most exposed side.  That's what I wanted to say.

Page 4044

 1             I didn't participate in the fighting, you know.  I didn't plan

 2     the fights either.  There was ongoing fighting on all sides.  There was

 3     fighting when we tried to overcome the enemy and so on and so forth.  So

 4     there was the hospital devastation that shouldn't be confounded or mixed

 5     up with the fighting that was ongoing to the east, to the west, to the

 6     south, in relation to the hospital.

 7        Q.   My question -- and I appreciate your answer, thank you for that.

 8     My question is, with regard to confrontation lines, was there a

 9     confrontation line east of the hospital, and if I understand your

10     testimony, the answer to that question is, Yes, there was.

11             I'll follow that up with the following question, which is:  Could

12     you tell the Chamber -- excuse me, could you tell the Chamber about how

13     far in distance from the hospital that confrontation line was to the east

14     in the time-period of 1992 through 1993?  Can you give us that

15     information, sir?

16        A.   I can't be really very precise, but I can put it this way, sir.

17     The eastern confrontation line was relatively far from the hospital.  I'm

18     talking about the eastern confrontation line.

19        Q.   And when you say "relatively far," could you give us an estimate

20     in metres?  Was it 200 metre, 300, 400 metres?

21        A.   No, no, no, no, no, sir.  It was much further.  What we are

22     talking about, what I testified about earlier was the frontline in the

23     south direction which was some 3- or 400 metres as the crow flies, and as

24     for the eastern frontline, it was several kilometres away from the

25     hospital.

Page 4045

 1        Q.   Very good.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Doctor.  Are you able to

 3     estimate how many kilometres to the east the frontline was?  If you are

 4     not able to, you are not able to.  But if you say it's in kilometres,

 5     it's got to be sort of in kilometres rather than metres, then we also

 6     understand that.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, not in metre.  It was

 8     certainly several kilometres in the direction east.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you say 10 kilometres?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, less, less.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you say 7?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 3 to 4.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But that's just what I think.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just what you think.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:

17        Q.   With regard to --

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are welcome.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:

21        Q.   With regard to the confrontation line that was south of the

22     hospital, that confrontation line, if I understand your testimony

23     correctly, was some 3- to 400 metres from the hospital; correct?

24        A.   As the crow flies, yes, and that would be my free estimate.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 4046

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we have 65 ter 09244 back up on the screen.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm always concerned when you put up the map when

 4     it's been drawn on.  I never know which way to go.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I made the mistake.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

 7        Q.   Once again looking at this map here, can you draw, with the

 8     assistance of the usher, where the confrontation line was south of the

 9     hospital that you indicated was some 3- to 400 metres south of the

10     hospital?

11        A.   Yes, I can, providing you blow up that section of the map.

12        Q.   Okay.  I'll see what we can do for you in that regard, sir.

13        A.   It's the same zone that I was supposed to mark just a couple of

14     minutes ago.  [In English] Can I?

15        Q.   And is the area that you have marked with a circle, the area that

16     you were telling us was where the confrontation line was?  Or is that

17     where the hospital was?  I think the circle is where the hospital is?

18        A.   [Interpretation] No, no, no, no.  No, you're mistaken.  The

19     hospital is more to the north from that.  I can also draw the place or

20     mark the place where the hospital was.  May I do that?

21        Q.   Great.  Could you mark the top circle with an SH for State

22     Hospital.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   And could you mark that, the bottom circle, with a CL for

25     confrontation line, please.

Page 4047

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  Could we have that admitted as

 3     Defence next in order.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The exhibit is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given

 7     Exhibit number D60.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you very much for your time, sir.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you as well.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, did I ask that it be marked?  D60.

12             Are you done, Mr. Guy-Smith?

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I am, I am.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm so sorry --

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I apologise, I said, "Thank you very much for

16     your time, sir."  I should have said, I'm completed.  I do apologise.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, you did say but I was talking to the Judge on

18     this side.  Any re-examination, Mr. Cannata?

19             MR. CANNATA:  No, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Judge?

21                           Questioned by the Court:

22             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] I have a question, Doctor.  It

23     seems to me that you said in your testimony that the shots came from the

24     Jewish cemetery of Sarajevo which is on the other side of the river with

25     regard to the hospital.  And now on the map that you have just marked and

Page 4048

 1     showed the confrontation line, you put the confrontation line on the same

 2     side as the hospital, so I'm a bit lost with regard to that.  I may be

 3     mistaken, I don't know.  Could you please clarify?

 4        A.   I believe I didn't.  I made sure to do everything properly.

 5     There is another confrontation line, and where I marked was the place

 6     where the Jewish cemetery was, and the river is still between the two.

 7     And if the cross does not denote the Jewish cemetery, then I'm mistaken,

 8     but I thought that the cross on the map denotes the Jewish cemetery and

 9     that's what I went by.  I must tell you that the distances on the map are

10     really very very small.  It's a small place.

11             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] So if I understand you properly,

12     the confrontation line was on the other side of the river vis-a-vis to

13     the hospital?

14        A.   Yes, yes.  If I can follow up on your question and the statement

15     by the lawyer, I'm not happy with the "confrontation line," with that

16     term.  It's actually the position of the troops of the Army Republika

17     Srpska from which one part of the city was controlled.  I believe that

18     this would be a better definition.  I'm sorry if I have offended somebody

19     with proffering my definition, but I think that the term is much better

20     and much clearer.

21             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] I am sorry, now I don't

22     understand what you are saying.  I apologise.  I just wanted to clarify

23     things, I was a bit confused.  So according to you, the confrontation

24     line was on the other bank of the river which is [indiscernible] by the

25     hospital.

Page 4049

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] Because on the map, the way you

 3     marked you put the confrontation line on the same bank as the hospital,

 4     so I suppose that you just made a little mistakes.  And I agree with you

 5     that the plan is very small, that the map is small.

 6        A.   If I made a mistake, I apologise.  The map is indeed small, but

 7     as I've already tried to explain, I was governed by the mark of the cross

 8     which represented the Jewish cemetery and that is on the southern bank --

 9     bank of the river.  There is no dilemma about that at all.

10             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I believe

11     that now the matters are absolutely clear.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any questions arising from the Judge's questions,

13     Mr. Cannata?

14             MR. CANNATA:  No, Your Honours.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I only, for purposes of clarification, I perhaps

16     am a bit confused.  I don't know if it's of any help to the Chamber to

17     have the map redrawn or not.  I am happy to do that if that's something

18     that the Chamber believes would be of assistance, but if the Chamber is

19     satisfied with the testimony as it stands, then I'll just leave it.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't decide for you when you ask questions

21     arising.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, then I have no further questions, then.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You can -- every once in awhile you can help me

25     out a little.

Page 4050

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, I can, but not how to conduct your trial.  I

 2     beg your pardon, Doctor, thank you so much for taking the time from your

 3     very busy schedule to come and testify at the Tribunal.  This brings us

 4     now to the conclusion of your testimony.  You are now excused.  You may

 5     stand down, and please travel well back home.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata, you think you can finish the next

 9     witness in the next three minutes?

10             MR. CANNATA:  I will because I'm not leading the next witness,

11     Your Honours.  Mr. Thomas will call the next witness.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas, would that be an appropriate time?

13             MR. THOMAS:  I would say, yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.  Court

15     adjourned.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.28 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

19             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I call Mr. Vejzagic,

20     please.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mister?

22             MR. THOMAS:  Vejzagic.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it a mister?

24             MR. THOMAS:  Mister, sir, yes.  Who is also a 92 ter witness,

25     Your Honour.

Page 4051

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, sir.  Will you please make the

 3     declaration.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I

 5     solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

 6     nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

10             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, sir.

11                           WITNESS:  NEDZAD VEJZAGIC

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Examination by Mr. Thomas:

14        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  Are you comfortably settled there?

15        A.   Good afternoon.  Thank you, yes, I am quite comfortable.

16        Q.   Could you begin, sir, by telling us your full name and date of

17     birth?

18        A.   My name is Nedzad Vejzagic, I was born on the 2nd of July, 1948

19     in Sarajevo.

20        Q.   And what is your current occupation?

21        A.   I am a currently a retired former employee of the Ministry of

22     Interior Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23        Q.   And are you a forensic scientist investigator by trade?

24        A.   I spent my whole career as a forensic expert in the laboratories

25     of the Ministry of Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 4052

 1        Q.   Sir, do you recall giving an interview to myself and other

 2     members of the Office of the Prosecutor in April of last year?

 3        A.   I remember that very well.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, could we please have 65 ter 09400 on

 5     the screen, please.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise, sir, the -- that is the statement that you gave

 7     to us at that time?

 8        A.   Yes, I recognise the document that I signed on the 25th of April,

 9     2008.

10        Q.   And is that your signature which we see on the bottom of the

11     document?

12        A.   Yes, that is indeed my signature.

13        Q.   Have you had the opportunity over the last few days to review

14     that statement?

15        A.   Yes, I've had the opportunity to do that.

16        Q.   Are the contents of the statement true and correct?

17        A.   It's the statement that I signed on the 25th of April, 2008.

18        Q.   Are the assertions you've made in that statement true and

19     correct?

20        A.   The assertions that I made at the time, I believe, are true and

21     correct.

22        Q.   And if I asked you the same questions today that you were asked

23     during that interview, would your answers be the same?

24        A.   I would adhere by the same words.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If the statement could

Page 4053

 1     please be admitted as an exhibit.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so admitted.  May it please be given an

 3     exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P645, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours, Madam Registrar.

 7        Q.   Sir --

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, the statement includes a schedule of

 9     around 50 documents which were reviewed for the purposes of the statement

10     which have also comprised the 92 ter -- or the exhibits to be tendered as

11     part of the 92 ter package.  No comment is required in respect of those

12     exhibits other than one or two matters of clarification which I can deal

13     with generally following the tendering of those exhibits.

14             I've discussed both with the madam case officer and my learned

15     friends whether there is a way we can do this without calling up each

16     exhibit individually in court, and I'm told that if I signal -- that one

17     option, depending on how Your Honours wish to proceed, is that we can

18     simply instruct Madam Registrar to assign P number to the exhibits listed

19     in the 92 ter package, except in the case of two or three where some

20     further comment is required.  If Your Honours are prepared to proceed on

21     that basis, we avoid the process of having to assign P numbers to all 50

22     of those Exhibits during the sitting of the Court.  But I'm in Your

23     Honours hands as to that.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Their Honours are in your colleague's hands on the

25     opposite side.

Page 4054

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That is the agreement that Mr. Thomas and I

 2     worked out with regard to this specific witness and these particular

 3     exhibits, all of which I believe Mr. Thomas would acknowledge are

 4     unscheduled incidents in terms of -- one of the meanings that we have for

 5     unscheduled incidents in terms of this case.  And by that I mean they are

 6     not found in the indictment.  I may be incorrect, there may be one that

 7     is found in the indictment, but apart from that -- apart from that

 8     issue --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Without characterising the nature of the exhibits,

10     what is the position of the Defence with regard to the admissibility as a

11     batch?

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Apart from that issue that I just mentioned, I

13     have made an agreement with Mr. Thomas with regard to these documents,

14     and they can all be assigned a P number as suggested by Mr. Thomas.  If

15     the Chamber wishes to proceed along those lines as opposed to -- as

16     opposed to -- excuse me, you know what, I just understood in a different

17     fashion precisely what your question is, and I'm going to answer

18     precisely what your question is.

19             I agree with Mr. Thomas, and I would suggest to the Court what we

20     do in this instance is we assign P number to each and every one of the

21     documents at the convenience of the Registrar without further adieu.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may proceed.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  In which case the record

24     should probably reflect that P numbers be assigned as per the 92 ter

25     package except for 65 ter 08320.01, which is in the package but which the

Page 4055

 1     Prosecution does not seek to tender.  Also a P number does not need to be

 2     assigned to 07200.  That has already been assigned an exhibit number of

 3     P468.  And in respect of 65 ter 08320.13, the Prosecution wishes to

 4     tender only pages 19 and 20 of the B/C/S version, and the attached three

 5     page English translation.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, at the convenience of the

 7     Registrar outside court hours, can you please assign Exhibit numbers to

 8     all those documents according to the suggestion of Mr. Thomas as

 9     mentioned in that paragraph.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Will do, Your Honours.  Internal memoranda will

11     be distributed to the parties.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours, Madam Registrar, and thank

14     you to my learned friends.

15             Sir if I may be permitted at this strategic read a very brief

16     summary of Mr. Vejzagic's statement.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, Mr. Vejzagic is forensic scientist,

19     now retired.  From 1974 until 2006, he worked in that capacity for the

20     Federal Ministry of the Interior for Bosnia and Herzegovina and Sarajevo,

21     which was responsible for investigating serious crimes including shelling

22     incidents.  He was head of the forensic department from 1999 until 2001,

23     and was engaged in that capacity in Sarajevo throughout the war.

24             Mr. Vejzagic describes the method of investigation and the manner

25     of preparation of investigation reports.  He reviewed a number of reports

Page 4056

 1     related to shelling incidents where 120 millimetre mortar shells landed

 2     and exploded in ABiH held parts of the city.  The reports detail, inter

 3     alia, the recovery of shell fragments from the impacts sites.  These

 4     fragments bear the markings of the manufacturer and the dates of

 5     production.  The manufacturer was the Krusik factory in Valjevo, Serbia,

 6     and the period during which the components concerned were manufactured

 7     was 1993 to 1995.  Mr. Vejzagic also comments upon periods of every day

 8     shelling and incessant sniping of civilians by forces of the Bosnian Serb

 9     army positioned on high ground surrounding the city.

10             And finally, Your Honour, there are some matters of clarification

11     arising from his statement and the exhibits referred to which I would

12     like to go through briefly with Mr. Vejzagic.

13        Q.   Sir, many of the reports you reviewed related to components of a

14     120-millimetre mortar shell.  Do you recall that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you also refer in your statement to a manual which depicts,

17     among other things, a 120-millimetre mortar shell and its various

18     components, do you recall that?

19        A.   I remember that, yes.

20        Q.   I'd like to ask to you just describe in general terms what a

21     120-millimetre mortar shell is and what it is comprised of.  And if it

22     assists you, I'd like to provide you with the corresponding page from the

23     manual --

24             MR. THOMAS:  -- which, if we could have on the screens, Your

25     Honour, is 65 ter number 08747.  Page 2 of the original B/C/S version,

Page 4057

 1     please, and page 3 of the English.

 2        Q.   Sir, you should have on the screen there a diagram of an

 3     artillery shelf some description.  Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Either with reference to that diagram, if it assists you, or

 6     otherwise, could you please describe to Their Honours the various

 7     components of a 120-millimetre mortar shell?

 8        A.   I wouldn't be able to call myself an expert for this type of

 9     shells; however, I am familiar with certain things because during my

10     service in the JNA I became familiar with such tools.  For in general

11     terms here, I can see that this shell consists of a body.  There is a

12     detonator, and then the bottom part is also known as the shell tail with

13     some openings and wings, which stabilise the shell during its trajectory.

14             And as far as I can remember, within the body of the mine, there

15     is the explosive charge, and on its top is a detonator which is impact

16     prone, and when the shell falls on a hard service, it is detonated and

17     shell explodes, i.e., the charge that is within the body of the shell

18     explodes.

19             The bottom part of the shell is also known as the shell tail.

20     There are stabilising wings, and something which you don't see on the

21     image, there is another charge that detonates the gunpowder that propels

22     the shell through the barrel.

23             The shell is detonated when the -- when a member of the crew puts

24     the shell in the barrel.  It travels through the barrel, it hits the

25     detonator, and then the gunpowder is ignited and jets the shell out of

Page 4058

 1     the barrel.

 2             The range of these shells depends on the angle of the barrel from

 3     which the shell is propelled.  The bigger the angle, the shorter the

 4     range.  The smaller the angle, the further the range, and it also depends

 5     on the quantity of the gun part charge.  This is as much as I can see on

 6     the image, helped with what I can remember.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas, just before you proceed and just for

 8     the record, can we just clarify the capacity in which the witness is

 9     coming.  He described himself as not an expert in these things.  I see

10     according to the witness list that he is a crime base witness, but we

11     have been given his CV, which suggested to me he is coming as an expert.

12     I'm also confused.  I would like to know exactly what his status is.

13             MR. THOMAS:  His status, Your Honour, is this something you'd you

14     want to hear from me answer or get some clarification --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know what witness you called in him.  Did

16     you call an expert witness or did you call a crime base witness.

17             MR. THOMAS:  No.  I called an investigator to tender

18     investigation reports, Your Honour.  So I'm simply because the reports

19     refer to certain components, I simply wish to provide some assistance

20     through him of --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just wanted -- indeed.  I just wanted to know

22     now that he put a caveat at the beginning, he said that he doesn't call

23     himself an expert in these things.

24             MR. THOMAS:  I understand, sir.  It wasn't an intention to lead

25     that as expert testimony.  More as background information for Your

Page 4059

 1     Honours.

 2        Q.   Sir, there are just a couple of things I would like to ask you

 3     about what you've just told us.  You mentioned the tail-fin of the shell,

 4     and you also later on mentioned the stabilising fin.  Are these the same

 5     thing or different things?

 6        A.   At the tail of the shell, the cylindrical part with the holes,

 7     you have these fins and that's called a stabiliser, you know -- stabilise

 8     the shell stabiliser.

 9        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  There is reference in the reports to the

10     stabiliser, and there's also reference in the reports to what is known as

11     the basic charge or primary charge.  Where we see those references, what

12     would that refer to?

13        A.   To the gunpowder charge in the shell.  If you want a greater

14     range, you add gunpowder and that thereby increases the shell's range.

15             MR. THOMAS:  Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter number 47 -- 87 --

16     I'll start again.  08746 on the screen, please.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I take it 08747, page 3, has therefore already

18     been tendered --

19             MR. THOMAS:  It has.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO: -- in that batch?

21             MR. THOMAS:  It has, sir.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

23             MR. THOMAS:

24        Q.   Now, sir, you will recognise this as a photograph attached to one

25     of the reports that you reviewed for the purposes of your statement?

Page 4060

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   Can you identify for us the two items that we see on the

 3     left-hand side of the image?

 4        A.   We can see the shell tail and the stabilising fins and below we

 5     can see -- well, we can see an opening on the tail.  And this part should

 6     have been there, that is the detonator cap.  You can see that a pin was

 7     used to fire this.  The parts to the right, metal pieces from the shell,

 8     and there are other parts that should have filled in the tail of the

 9     shell and should have plugged it in.

10             MR. THOMAS:  I wonder if I can ask for the assistance of

11     Mr. Usher, please.

12        Q.   With the assistance of this pen, sir, can you please draw a

13     circle around the item that you describe as the detonator cap.

14        A.   So this part is placed here.  So this is the cap.  It's at the

15     bottom of the shell.  When the shell is put into the barrel, this cap is

16     then ignited here.  This is where it is ignited by the pin at the bottom

17     of the barrel.  These parts here are the felt plugs that are inside the

18     shell, and inside that cartridge you also have the charge, the gunpowder

19     charge, which is covered by these felt plugs.

20        Q.   All right.  Just pause for a moment.  You mentioned that the

21     charge is inside the cartridge.  Where is the cartridge?  Do we see it or

22     any part of it in the photograph?

23        A.   This cap has a lower part that is missing.  It's similar to the

24     cartridge used for a hunting rifle.  So it's between 7 and 10 centimetres

25     long usually, then you have a gunpowder charge inside the felt plugs in

Page 4061

 1     at the top, and they prevent the gunpowder charge from spilling out.

 2     Here you have the cap, you have the cap, when it's hit by the firing pin,

 3     a flame is created and this sets fire to the gunpowder charge through the

 4     hole that we saw awhile ago, or from that hole the gunpowder gas can come

 5     out, and they in fact discharge the shell from the barrel and fire it

 6     over a certain range.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It seems that the witness is being called to

 9     testify at this point as an expert, not as a fact witness with regard to

10     investigation reports, and I would object on those grounds at this time.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why do you say he is being called as an expert?

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Because he is explaining to us a series of

13     matters that certainly are beyond the ken of someone who is a forensic

14     investigator but are dealing now specifically with the specific

15     discipline of artillery and firing.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Well, first of all, sir, he is not giving any sort

18     of opinion.  So that's point number one.  The second point, sir, is that

19     the weight to be attached to the testimony that is he now giving is a

20     matter for Your Honours.  This is evidence that's within his experience.

21     It's -- it should be taken for what it is.  The observations of an

22     investigator whose experience is limited to investigating in the manner

23     described in the statement.  Of course he can't testify as to how shells

24     are fired in the same way that an artillery expert could testify, but he

25     is trained in the collection of evidence, and all I'm attempt tempting to

Page 4062

 1     do, for Your Honours, is to give names to the fragments that are found

 2     and referred to in the reports.  And that is the reason for this evidence

 3     and that is the only extents to which the evidence can reasonably be

 4     taken.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I reiterate what the witness said right at the

 6     beginning, that he doesn't regard himself as an expert in this and,

 7     indeed, that's how I was viewing his testimony.  However, my concern,

 8     which is slightly different from Mr. Guy-Smith's concern, is that the

 9     witness is now drawing new parts instead of describing the parts that are

10     photographed.  That's my concern.  And I was just wondering whether the

11     part he is drawing, don't you have it in subsequent pictures where he can

12     talk about that there.  And I would have expected you to stop him from

13     drawing but rather just to tell us what these things are because that was

14     your question.

15             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, I understand, sir.  I thought --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That was my concern.

17             MR. THOMAS:  That's fine, sir.  And in fact I propose that he

18     redraw.  I thought that the evidence would still be of some assistance to

19     Your Honours, but I can limit it to what's on the screen.  And we'll

20     start again which I was --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I would imagine or I would expect that what he

22     draws you do have in picture for him in some other exhibit, and you'll

23     get to that exhibit and he can tell us that instead of drawing it here.

24     And if you don't have it, then so be it.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.  All right.  Madam Registrar, can we

Page 4063

 1     please have a clean version of that exhibit up on the screen, please.

 2        Q.   Mr. Vejzagic, can you please just draw a circle around the item

 3     that you have identified as the detonator for the charge, please?

 4        A.   That's the detonator.

 5        Q.   Can you draw a line from there straight down towards the bottom

 6     of the picture and mark a D next to that line, please.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Can you draw a circle around the remnants of the charge that you

 9     have described, please.

10        A.   This should be a, what's it called, the cartridge, the cardboard

11     cartridge, and the length should be about 10 centimetres.  It's similar

12     to the cartridge used for a hunting rifle.

13        Q.   Sir, just pause.  We understand that.  Please just draw the

14     circle around the remnants of the charge.  And if you've completed that,

15     just say so.

16        A.   That's it.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you draw a C next to that marking, please.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Could you then draw an arrow pointing to that part of the

20     stabiliser which the charge is inserted into?

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   And finally, sir, the reports mention markings that are found on

23     the charge or on the stabiliser throughout the reports that you reviewed,

24     can you just draw a line or indicate in some way where you would see

25     those markings in this photograph?

Page 4064

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   And could you please put an arrow head at the end of the line

 3     where you see the markings?

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Mr. Usher.  Your Honours, can we please

 6     tender that as an exhibit.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The picture is it admitted into evidence.  May it

 8     please be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P646.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour, Madam Registrar.  Thank you,

12     Mr. Usher.

13        Q.   Sir, now, I just want to clarify some language that is used in

14     some of the reports.  The reports refer to the aggressor or the

15     aggressor's positions.  Which force is denoted by the term "aggressor,"

16     or whose positions are denoted by the terms "aggressor's positions"?

17        A.   The term "aggressor" or "aggressor positions" refer to the

18     positions of the VRS.  The Army of Republika Srpska.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And finally there are a number of locations

20     referred throughout the reports that I'd just like you to identify for

21     us.

22             MR. THOMAS:  And, Your Honours, if we could please have Exhibit

23     P370 on the screen.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P?

25             MR. THOMAS:  370.  Well, we don't want the marked map, Your

Page 4065

 1     Honour, and my apologies if that's a marked map.  Then, can we please

 2     have 65 ter number 09244 on the screen.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   First of all, sir, do you recognise that as a map of Sarajevo and

 4     its surrounds?

 5        A.   I can see that this is Sarajevo.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, if we could please tender the blank

 7     map as an exhibit.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The map is admitted.  May it please be given an

 9     exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P647, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours, Madam Registrar.

13        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you to just identify some locations on this

14     map.

15             MR. THOMAS:  And it might assist if we zoomed in a little bit,

16     please, Madam Registrar, on the more populated part of the map.  And

17     perhaps scrolled a little bit to the left.  Sorry, other way.  Thank you.

18        Q.   Sir, the first location I want to you indicate for us is the area

19     described in some reports as Sarajevo Centar or centre?

20        A.   Sarajevo Centar refers to the municipality of Sarajevo.  It's the

21     central part of town.

22        Q.   Again with Mr. Usher's assistance, I'm going to ask you to mark

23     that part of the map, please.

24        A.   Roughly speaking, this would be the surface covered by the Centar

25     municipality of Sarajevo.  It's this part, the central part of the town.

Page 4066

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  If you could draw or write, please, an SC next

 2     to that circle?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   The next location I want you to identify for us, please, is

 5     Bolnicka Street?

 6        A.   That's the street that leads to the Sarajevo hospital.  It's in

 7     the Kosevo area, and it would be approximately in this area.

 8        Q.   Could you just draw a B next to that line, please?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Some of the reports refer to just the town centre, where would

11     that be, and is it -- well, is it any different from Sarajevo Centar?

12        A.   What I have just delimited is the area covered by the Centar

13     municipality in Sarajevo.  If you are talking about the centre of the

14     town, that includes the buildings and the features that are actually in

15     the central part of town.  The central part of town, strictly speaking,

16     this would be this area here.

17        Q.   Just below the circle you've drawn, could you please put the

18     letters TC?

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Thank you.  The next location I'm interested in is Nikola Tesla

21     Street?

22        A.   I can't remember where that street is located.  I think it's in

23     the territory of the Novi Grad area or Novi Sarajevo, but I don't know

24     where it is exactly.

25        Q.   Could you mark for us, please, the area of Novi Grad.

Page 4067

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Could you mark for us the area of Novo Sarajevo.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Could you also mark for us the Bulevar Mese

 5     Selimovica Street?

 6        A.   Bulevar Mese Selimovica is the central street that leads from

 7     Sarajevo in the direction of Ilidza.  This would be the street here.

 8        Q.   Can you mark that please with BMS.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could you mark, please, for us, the area of Stari

11     Grad?

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   With an SG.  Thank you.  Can you just indicate for us now,

14     please, the areas of -- or the streets Kosevo and Tin Ujevic streets?

15        A.   This is the part called Kosevo, and there's a street called

16     Kosevo that runs to the central part of town from here.  There's a

17     street, Tin Ujevic Street, that runs to the Kosevo Hospital, that's about

18     here.

19        Q.   Okay.  The circle that you've just drawn, could you draw a line

20     away from that circle up to a -- a blank part of the map up near the top,

21     and could you please mark that with TU?

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Thank you.  The next area, please, is Sokolovici?

24        A.   Sokolovici is here.  The map should be shifted a bit.

25        Q.   We'll pause there for a moment.  I won't move the map just yet,

Page 4068

 1     sir.  We'll come back to Sokolovici.  And finally, for this map, Jajacka

 2     Street?

 3        A.   I don't know where that street is exactly.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Finally, sir, just in relation to this map and the areas

 5     that you've marked on it, which force or forces held these parts of the

 6     city?

 7        A.   The central part of town inside all of these circles.  It would

 8     look like this more or less.  So this part of town was, roughly speaking,

 9     under the ABiH.  These marginal areas were covered by the units of the

10     VRS.

11        Q.   Can you draw a line from that inner circle that you've drawn up

12     to the top of the map and put ABiH, please?

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Now, you will recognise the locations I have described as

15     municipalities relating to impact sites contained in the various reports

16     that you reviewed; is that right?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   Were the impact sites and the reports that you reviewed in the --

19     in that part of Sarajevo controlled by the ABiH?

20        A.   On site investigations could only be carried out in territory

21     under the control of the ABiH.

22        Q.   All right.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.  Your Honours, could this marked map

24     please be tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This marked map is admitted into evidence.  May it

Page 4069

 1     please be given an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P648, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours, Madam Registrar.  And when

 5     that's done, could we please have P647 back up on the screen again.  And

 6     if we could zoom out so that we have -- I am sorry.  I'm sorry, Your

 7     Honours, if we could please have P439 on the screen.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Sir, do you recognise that map as an area of Sarajevo and its

 9     surrounds?

10        A.   Well, you can recognise the silhouette of the surface covered by

11     the town of Sarajevo, and you can also recognise the surrounding places.

12        Q.   I'm going to ask you to note some more locations.  If you find

13     that we need to go zoom in closer to the map to do that, please let us

14     know.

15             MR. THOMAS:  In fact, I wonder if we could begin just by zooming

16     in maybe to about 80 per cent of the coverage of the map, please, Madam

17     Registrar.  That's fine.  Thank you.

18        Q.   The first location I want you to mark, sir, is -- and please

19     excuse my pronunciation, is Grdonj?

20        A.   Grdonj.  Grdonj is a hill above Sarajevo approximately here.

21     However, it seems to me that the previous map depicted the names of the

22     hills and other features much better than this one, it seems to me.

23             MR. THOMAS:  All right.  Well, Your Honours, could we please go

24     to P647.  And if we could enlarge, please, the top right-hand third of

25     the map.  Thank you.

Page 4070

 1        Q.   Sir, do you see the area of Grdonj on there?  If you could mark

 2     that for us, please.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Which forces held that hill?

 5        A.   Facing the town it was the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Facing

 6     the northern side of the hill, it was the Army of Republika Srpska.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  If you could just mark a G inside that circle,

 8     please.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   The next location, please, is Mrkovici.

11        A.   Mrkovici.

12        Q.   And you could mark an M within a circle, please.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And which forces held that area?

15        A.   That area was held by the forces of the Army of Republika Srpska.

16        Q.   Thank you.  The next location, please, is Mount Trebevic.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And if you could mark that with a T.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And which forces held that area?

21        A.   Again, the slopes towards the town were held by the army of

22     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  However, almost the entire area of Trebevic

23     mountain was held bit forces of the Army of Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   Thank you, the next location please is Vojkovici?

25        A.   We have to scroll up a little.

Page 4071

 1        Q.   All right.  Before we do that, sir, because we will lose your

 2     markings if we do that, let me go through some other locations in case

 3     they can be marked on this map.

 4             Gavric Brdo.

 5        A.   Yes, Gavric Brdo is here.  Approximately here in the direction of

 6     the airport.

 7        Q.   And which forces held that area?

 8        A.   Gavrica Brdo was held by the forces of the Army Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   Biosko?

10        A.   Biosko, yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And which forces held that area?

12        A.   Again the forces of the Army of Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Doglodi?

14        A.   This is Doglodi.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And which forces held that area?

16        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   The next location is Vraca.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Marked with a V, thank you.  And which forces held that area?

20        A.   That area facing the town, that's where the line was and closer

21     to the town was the area held by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And

22     the hill slopes again were held by the Army of Republika Srpska.

23        Q.   Ilidza.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Thank you, if you could mark that with an I.

Page 4072

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Which forces held that area?

 3        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   The next location, please, is Vidikovac.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Perhaps with a VK.

 7        A.   This is Vidikovac.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And which forces held that area?

 9        A.   That area was actually one of the peaks of Mountain Trebevic

10     directly overlooking the town and that's the area that was also held by

11     the Army Republika Srpska.

12        Q.   And finally on this map, please, Lukavica.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   If you could mark that with an L.  Thank you.  And which forces

15     held that area?

16        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska.

17             MR. THOMAS:  That you have.  Your Honours, if that map could

18     please be admit as an exhibit.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P649, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Madam Registrar.  And could

23     we please have one more time P647 on the screen, please.

24        Q.   There was one location which we weren't able to -- or you weren't

25     able to identify, sir, on the zoomed in version of the map that we've

Page 4073

 1     just had on the screen, that was Nedzarici can you see it here.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Mr. Usher -- thank you, I'm sorry.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas, it looks like the usher is trying to

 4     get your attention.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Mr. Usher.  We need to zoom in?  Maybe on

 6     the top left-hand third of the screen.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are welcome.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I think that we should

 9     scroll up a little.  No, no, scroll down rather.  Go on.  Go on.  Well,

10     that's it.

11             MR. THOMAS:

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And which forces held that area?

13        A.   That area was held by the Army of Republika Srpska.

14             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Usher.  Your Honours, if

15     that could please be tendered as an exhibit.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

17     number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P650, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours, Madam Registrar.  Your

21     Honours, that concludes the matters I wish to raise with this witness.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             Mr. Guy-Smith.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

25             If I could ask Madam Registrar a quick question, if I bring up an

Page 4074

 1     exhibit that has been previously marked on and wish to put new markings

 2     on that exhibit and give it a new Exhibit number, will that offend the

 3     original exhibit?  Great.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7        Q.   I'd like to start off by asking a -- one very brief question with

 8     regard to your statement in the interview process that you went through

 9     with Mr. Thomas in giving that statement.  When you gave the statement to

10     Mr. Thomas, did you engage in a series of questions and answers at that

11     time?  Did he ask you a specific question to which you gave him a

12     specific answer which was written down?

13        A.   I had been given a number of documents which I reviewed, and then

14     I provided explanations about the documents, what they contain, how they

15     were produced, and what were the usual and customary procedures to be

16     used in the drafting of such documents.

17             I also knew some people who had been involved in the drafting of

18     those documents and I put that in my statement.  And there were no other

19     questions with this regard.

20        Q.   The reason I ask you is because Mr. Thomas asked you if you were

21     asked the same questions today, would you give the same answers, and in

22     going through your statement, I don't see there to be any questions --

23     or, rather, it is -- I suppose it's answers.  So I just wanted to make

24     sure that I understood the process that you'd gone through when you had

25     the interview with Mr. Thomas, which I now understand better.  And it

Page 4075

 1     would be fair to say -- it would be fair to say that reviewing your

 2     statement, as you look at your statement, you view your statement to be

 3     correct with regard to the informations contained therein?

 4        A.   I had been given a series of documents.  I asked what my task

 5     was, and then I was told that I would be asked to provide explanations

 6     about each of the documents.  In any case, what you can read in my

 7     statement is what I wrote at the time when the statement was issued and

 8     that is that.

 9        Q.   And the statement that you made during the interview process, I

10     note that you speak, it says here, Languages used during -- in the

11     interview, both English and Bosnian.  Am I to understand that you are

12     fluent in both of those languages, sir?

13        A.   I don't know whether this could be described as fluent but, yes,

14     I can express myself in English.  I can understand English.  If I am not

15     familiar with a particular word, I ask for explanation.  Providing the

16     explanation is given, then I can understand everything.

17        Q.   Excellent.  That could be of some help to me in future depending

18     on the way that we go.

19             In your statement, you draw a distinction, as I understand it,

20     between the forensic, what I'm going to call department, and the KDZ

21     department; correct.

22        A.   [No interpretation]

23        Q.   And your function was in the forensic aspects of the

24     investigation true?

25        A.   That's true.

Page 4076

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess we can get an explanation of what KDZ is.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.

 3        Q.   With regard to the forensic --

 4        A.   KDZ is the anti-bomb squad.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  With regard to the forensic department, your duties,

 6     your department's duties were to collect evidence from a scene of an

 7     incident, true?  You were not engaged in analysis at that time?  Let me

 8     back up, because I've actually asked you two questions in one and I don't

 9     mean to do that.

10             It was your function to collect evidence from the scene; correct?

11        A.   I was the chief of that department.  In my department I had

12     experts for various jobs, and there are also people who were looking for

13     traces of explosives and explosive devices.  What I'm saying is that

14     there were people in my department who were experts and could be called

15     experts for certain things.  I was the one who would assign those men to

16     particular crime scenes, and I, myself, was not the one who would go to

17     the crime scene to collect evidence.

18        Q.   Understood.  Understood.  Now, apart from your team, there was

19     also the KDZ team; correct?

20        A.   When we were dealing with explosions, we always sent a KDZ team.

21     My people would rarely go to such crime scenes.  It would mostly be the

22     KDZ men who would be sent to such places.

23        Q.   And I think you've explained to the Chamber, but since we are now

24     dealing with the KDZ men, what was the KDZ team's function?  What were

25     they to do?  Are they particular with regard to dealing with explosions?

Page 4077

 1        A.   In the first part of my written statement you will find a

 2     description of the function of the Ministry of Interior and its

 3     organisational units.  And there, I explain that within the police

 4     administration there was an independent department for KDZ, and there was

 5     another independent department for forensics.  I was the chief of that

 6     department for forensics, and our task - according to rules of service of

 7     the public security - we had to investigate grave crimes which involved

 8     the killing of more than one person, and we also were involved in the

 9     investigation of crime scenes where major material damage was inflicted

10     or where the perpetrator was an unknown person.

11             That was the forensics department.  Whereas the KDZ department

12     functioned in the following way:  They had to find and deactivate or

13     remove any explosive devices or mines.  In the course of the war when

14     there were a large number of explosions happening in Sarajevo, the KDZ

15     took over the role that they could -- they were only ones to perform and

16     that was to investigate such explosions.  Based on the information on the

17     collected particles of the explosives, they were charged with identifying

18     the types of explosives.  And based on the traces on the crime scene,

19     they were tasked with determining the direction from which the explosive

20     had been fired.

21        Q.   Okay.  You state in your statement at paragraph 14 the following,

22     "At the local level (CSB)," what does that stand for?

23        A.   This is the security services centre, a service that was at a

24     lower level than the Ministry of the Interior, and it covered the city of

25     Sarajevo.  Within that area there were some 15 municipalities, each with

Page 4078

 1     its own police service.  The republican Ministry of Interior was in

 2     charge of the entire territory of the former republic of Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina and was involved in investigating only the gravest of crimes;

 4     whereas, the security services centre was involved in investigating only

 5     minor crimes.

 6        Q.   I think it would behoove you as well as the questioning process

 7     if you would pay attention to the question asked, answer that question,

 8     if you need to expanded that answer, that's fine with me, but I'd asked

 9     you a specific question about the CSB.  There are a number of other

10     things you say here, so just so we can get an understanding of what each

11     one of these acronyms mean it can be of some help.  The next you say is.

12     "... and SJB."  What does SJB stand for?

13        A.   Public security station.  Or a police station.

14        Q.   Thank you.  There were also forensic and KDZ technicians, and I

15     believe that you described to us and explained to us what the letters KDZ

16     mean.  Now, you say the following:

17             "...  who were trained to carry out some easy forensic

18     investigations."

19             And I'd like to focus on that to understand what you mean by easy

20     forensic investigations.

21        A.   CSB or Security Services Centre was responsible for a territory

22     that consisted of 15 municipalities.  Under the law, they were tasked

23     with investigating any security incidents that take place in their

24     territory.  If such an incident involved more than one dead, if there was

25     a killing perpetrated by an unknown perpetrator, or if the incident

Page 4079

 1     involved a major damage or if the incident involved a foreigner, then

 2     they would inform the Ministry of Interior, which would be my forensics,

 3     and then my people would be sent to the crime scene.

 4        Q.   Excuse me --

 5        A.   If the situation was different --

 6        Q.   I appreciate your answer, but your answer is really

 7     non-responsive to the question that I've asked.

 8             The question that I asked you was what you mean by "easy forensic

 9     investigations," since you say in your statement they were trained to

10     carry out some easy forensic investigations.  That's all I'm asking you

11     at the moment.  What do you mean by that statement?  What is the

12     distinction between easy forensic investigations and hard forensic

13     investigations.  I guess.  I'm guessing because I obviously don't know,

14     that's why I'm asking the question.

15        A.   For example, if we are talking about a burglary, or if two

16     persons were involved in a physical fight, if the perpetrators were known

17     and the consequences of the events minor, then we would call this minor

18     or easy incidents.  In any case, the perpetrators have to be known for an

19     incident to be qualified as "easy," as it were, incidents, and as a rule

20     they were under the jurisdiction of the CSB.

21        Q.   Okay.  With regard to KDZ technicians, KDZ technicians as you've

22     explained it to us were technicians who were involved in what I would

23     call explosive incidents; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   That is not a simple burglary, now, is it, that is something a

Page 4080

 1     bit more complex; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, you are right.

 3        Q.   So with regard to the KDZ technicians that are contained in your

 4     explanation at paragraph 14, I take it that what you had, and correct me

 5     if I'm wrong, what you had was you had a merging of your forensic

 6     technicians to work with the KDZ technicians with regard to what I will

 7     term "explosive incidents"?  The two departments worked together for

 8     those purposes?

 9        A.   In the ministry, there were two independent departments.  The

10     first one was the forensic department and the other one the KDZ

11     department.  However, in a CSB there was a single department which merged

12     the two, both the forensic department and department for KDZ.  That was

13     just one department.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  We'll take a break and

15     come back at quarter to 6.00.  Court adjourned.

16                           --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Mr. Vejzagic, I'd like to give you a gentle thought.  Court

21     concludes today at 7.00, and I would like to do my best to be able to

22     finish my examination of you today so that you are not inconvenienced.

23     So if you will listen to my questions and answer the question that I've,

24     asked I'd appreciate.  I think it might go a bit quicker, also, of

25     course, if you need to explain any of your answers, please feel free to

Page 4081

 1     do so.  Okay?

 2             You've indicated to us that you are not an expert when it comes

 3     to issues concerning artillery shells; is that a fair statement?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us by any chance, how many charges there are in a

 6     120-millimetre mine before its fired, if you know?

 7        A.   I really wouldn't know.

 8        Q.   And when I said "mine" I was referring to the mortar shell.

 9        A.   A mine, okay.

10        Q.   I want to make sure that we are using the same language.  Have

11     you personally learned the science of azimuth in terms of the arc and

12     range of mortar shells?

13        A.   I served in the JNA.  I went to the school of reserve officers,

14     and part of our training dealt with that.  I don't remember that I had

15     some specific training in ranges and arcs and things like that.

16        Q.   So we are clear, you'd indicated that with regard to the range of

17     an artillery shell, you've indicated, I believe it's page 38, lines 23 to

18     25, that the smaller the angle the farther the range; is that correct?

19        A.   Well, I know that from physics.

20        Q.   Okay.

21        A.   That the range is very much influenced by the quantity of the

22     charge, and the angle of the barrel.

23        Q.   And with regard to the answer that you gave to Mr. Thomas

24     concerning the angle, I take it that as far as you understand, that's an

25     accurate statement, which is the smaller the angle, the farther the range

Page 4082

 1     in terms of its trajectory?

 2        A.   The smaller the angle, no, the range is not shorter.  No.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I take it it would be the larger the angle, the farther

 4     the range?

 5        A.   The smaller the range, no, no, no.  If your angle is anything

 6     from 0 to 90 degrees, then the biggest range should be at the angle of 45

 7     degrees, and if the angle is even wider, then the range is smaller.  But

 8     that will also depend on the force of the charge, how many -- how much

 9     gases will develop when the shell is fired, and things like that.

10        Q.   And with regard to the information that you have about the

11     reports that you looked at which show what I'd say are fragments of a

12     mortar shell, you can't tell us as you sit here today what the force of

13     any of those charges was, can you?

14        A.   I am not an expert in the area.  Really, I'm not.

15        Q.   Okay.  In your statement at paragraph 55, you discuss markings on

16     shells, and you state:

17             "Approval for production was issued by the Federal Secretariat

18     for National Defence."

19             Now, my question to you is, is do you know when you are

20     discussing the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, would that have

21     been the Ministry of Defence, or would have that have been some other

22     organ of the government?

23        A.   I claim this based on what I remember from 1972 when I served in

24     the JNA.  At that time, we were told about the procedures applied to the

25     designing and obtaining technical data, and then the -- we were also told

Page 4083

 1     that the Federal Secretariat for National Defence would eventually grant

 2     approval for production.

 3        Q.   And the Federal Secretariat for National Defence was an organ of

 4     the government in the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   I believe so.

 7        Q.   Once that particular state ceased to exist, do you know who was

 8     responsible for approval of production of these particular items?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the Krusik factory, which is the factory

11     that you have indicated in paragraph 56 of your statement, you indicate

12     that you believe that they still produce military equipment for Serbia.

13     And you refer the reader to a website in your statement.  Do you recall

14     that?

15        A.   Yes.  I remember that, yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  First of all, are you aware of the fact that the website

17     that you referred us -- that you refer the reader to is a website for a

18     private company that presently produces springs, and by that I mean metal

19     springs?

20        A.   No, when I remember that it was Krusik Valjevo, I searched the

21     internet, and it seems to me that when I found the web page I saw that

22     mines and explosives were still on their product range.

23        Q.   Now, during the period of the war, do you know whether or not the

24     factory, the Krusik factory, was a government factory or a private

25     factory?

Page 4084

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   Well, we can't take that any further.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Now, could we please have P649 up on the screen.

 4        Q.   Now, what I'd like to do, first of all, if we could, is with the

 5     help of the usher and using a different colour, you mentioned on a number

 6     of occasions where the ABiH was in terms of what side of the slope they

 7     were on.  I think the first place you mentioned that was in the area that

 8     you've designated as G, in which you indicated that the ABiH was on one

 9     side of the slope and that the VRS was on the other side; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   And could you -- I hope we are using a different colour, I hope

13     we are using red now.  Could you mark in red on which side of the circle

14     in which there's a letter G the ABiH was stationed?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And could you put an ABiH underneath that, please.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that you indicated there were -- there was

19     another place where, once again, the ABiH was stationed.  Do you see any

20     other places on the map as it presently exists where there were ABiH

21     military?

22        A.   The BiH Army forces were deployed along the whole length of the

23     narrow stretch of the town of SarajevoSarajevo is in a valley, and the

24     forces of the Army Republika Srpska were on the hill slopes around

25     Sarajevo, and the forces of the army Bosnia-Herzegovina were within the

Page 4085

 1     city.  For example, they were on -- at the foot of Vidikovac, those were

 2     actually the slopes, and this is facing the town, and this is the top of

 3     this mountain called Trebevic.

 4             From Vidikovac a view extends of the whole city of Sarajevo.  You

 5     have it like in the palm of your hand.  And at the foot of that,

 6     Vidikovac, there was the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also on Vraca

 7     which is a hilltop very close to Sarajevo.  That's also where the BiH

 8     Army forces were stationed.

 9        Q.   Moving towards your left on this particular document, could you

10     indicate to the Chamber where else the you would find the forces of the

11     ABiH stationed?

12        A.   I must say that I was never on a single frontline during the war.

13     I never inspected the forces of any of the army.  However, in view of the

14     stories and while I resided in Sarajevo, I could see where fire was

15     coming from because you could see fire.  When bullets were fired, you

16     could see the tracing bullets as if it was a guided missile.  You could

17     see that, you could see smoke after a missile was fired, and based on

18     that information I'm providing my information.  I know that you could not

19     pass through a certain areas of town because you would be targeted by the

20     fire mines of the Army Republika Srpska.

21             So in rough outlines, I would say that this was the central part

22     of the town, and maybe we could also say that fighting was taking place

23     on a hilltop called Zuc.  Zuc was eventually taken.  So this was the

24     area, roughly speaking.  And the rest was all under the control of the

25     Army of Republika Srpska.  This is a very rough sketch because I'm not

Page 4086

 1     really very familiar with the lines.  I suppose that your military

 2     experts would provide you with better information.  I'm providing my

 3     information as a common citizen who lived in the town who was targeted,

 4     who was observing the smoke to see where the fire came from, who was

 5     listening to the stories about the sniper fires for which you could not

 6     pass through certain parts of the city and so on and so forth.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you please slow down, Mr. Vejzagic.  If I

 8     may just ask, if you don't mind --

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Absolutely not, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You seem to be saying, sir, that you are

11     determining the lines occupied by the ABiH by the smoke of the fire that

12     you used to see.  My question to you is how did you know that particular

13     smoke from fire came from an ABiH and not from a VRS gun or whatever

14     machinery?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a citizen who lived

16     in Sarajevo at the time could quite clearly see from the surrounding

17     hills or could see shooting from the surrounding his.  If there were

18     tracer bullets, then you have a light signal, you can see where the

19     bullets is coming from.  When you fire, you can also hear the sound.  You

20     can see a flame.  You can see smoke, and you can see where a shell

21     impacts.  So it's very clear, you can see which locations are being used

22     to fire on Sarajevo from.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that.  I understand that.  My

24     question is slightly different from that.  My question is, when you see

25     that fire, when you see that smoke, how do you determine that that smoke

Page 4087

 1     comes from a VRS army shell and not from an ABiH army shell?  You just

 2     see fire.  And the reason I'm asking you this question is because in your

 3     answer to Mr. Guy-Smith's question, you said you determined the lines

 4     occupied by the ABiH by the fire that came out.  Now, when fire comes --

 5     if that is the only criterion you are using, my question then is:  How do

 6     you know that this smoke that I see is from a VRS machine-gun and not an

 7     ABiH machine-gun?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the smoke is identical

 9     regardless of the weapon that it comes from.  This would just be a

10     conclusion on the basis of logics.  The flame that you can see faces

11     Sarajevo.  The ABiH directed its weapons at the hills, so we couldn't see

12     those weapons and the flashes from those weapons.  If there was -- if

13     there were trace of bullets that were used, then you could see that these

14     bullets were coming from Vidikovac from the hill and not from the

15     positions of the ABiH which were hundred metres -- or several hundred

16     metres below that position.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:

18        Q.   Looking at the map, can you see the area that says Kobilja Glava,

19     which is?

20        A.   Yes, I see it.

21        Q.   Is that a -- first of all, is that an area that has some

22     elevation above the town of Sarajevo?

23        A.   Yes, that's the area above Sarajevo.  It's a hill.

24        Q.   And was that hill controlled by the ABiH during the war period?

25        A.   To be quite frank, I don't know.  But I think that the lines were

Page 4088

 1     somewhere around here in the vicinity of Kobilja Glava, but I never

 2     passed through that.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Can we have this marked as Defence next in order.

 4     I'm sorry, could we have this moved into evidence as Defendant's next in

 5     order, not marked.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Can we mark -- this map is admitted

 7     into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D61, Your

 9     Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:

12        Q.   Now, I'd like to understand something if I could, and perhaps you

13     could be of some assistance to us.  You have identified your

14     investigations as areas where there were crime scenes; correct?

15        A.   The documents I reviewed, well, I've confirmed that these were

16     documents that would be drafted if you went to carry out an onsite

17     investigation.

18        Q.   My question to you is, considering the fact that you have shown

19     us now on two separate maps where the ABiH army was, did you have an

20     agreement with the army with regard to what would be considered to be a

21     zone of warfare as opposed to what would be considered to be a crime

22     scene where your jurisdiction began and their jurisdiction ended, or

23     vice-versa?

24        A.   I don't know whether there was such an agreement.  But I know

25     that the rule was as follows:  If there were any incidents in the area of

Page 4089

 1     the frontlines, then the military police would be responsible for that.

 2     The regular police was never present at those first -- at those

 3     frontlines.  This was something for the military police to deal with.  As

 4     to whether there were any agreement, I don't know.

 5        Q.   And when you say "frontlines," was that an area that was defined

 6     in terms of distance as to what a frontline would be?  How was that

 7     defined, the frontline?  And by that I'm referring really to the depth in

 8     terms of metres or kilometres that defined the frontline.

 9        A.   I don't know.  I couldn't say.

10        Q.   The incidents, the reports that you reviewed, in large measure

11     cover a period in the summer -- I should put it this way, the late spring

12     and early -- in summer of 1995; correct?

13        A.   That's probably correct.

14        Q.   During that period of time, during the late spring and early

15     summer months of 1995, that was a time when there was relatively active

16     fighting between the VRS and the ABiH; correct?  It was one of the more

17     intense periods?

18        A.   I don't know how I would assess it.  We were under fire every

19     day, so I don't know whether it was more or less intense at the time.

20     There was ongoing fighting at all times.

21        Q.   There was a point in time when the ABiH actually gained territory

22     in 1995, true?

23        A.   I don't know.  I remember that the lines in 1992 and 1995 didn't

24     change until the very end of the war.  In 1992 in the town, well, the

25     places that were dangerous to pass through in 1992 and 1993 were also

Page 4090

 1     dangerous to pass through in 1995.

 2        Q.   Okay.  With regard to those times that there were victories

 3     obtained by the ABiH, did you hear of those through the news media?

 4        A.   As far as I can remember, there were victories outside of

 5     Sarajevo, some territory was taken outside of Sarajevo, the frontlines

 6     were moved in those areas, but as for Sarajevo itself, I don't remember

 7     the lines being moved at all.  I don't remember any such victories.  On

 8     the whole, this is information I obtained from the media.

 9        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the investigation of any explosive site,

10     using the same term, I think I said explosive incident, I apologise,

11     explosive incident site, the teams that would arrive to investigate were

12     both civilian teams, that you've mentioned before, and by that I'm

13     talking about your forensic team as well as the KDZ; correct?

14        A.   I've already provided you a detailed explanation of the procedure

15     followed.

16        Q.   Sure.  To your knowledge, were on occasion international teams

17     also present at the explosive incident sites?

18        A.   I know that an international team was involved when there was an

19     explosion in which over 60 people were killed on one occasion.  The next

20     event or incident concerned 68 individuals more or less who were killed

21     in Markale 2.  I know about this for sure because I participated, and

22     another team cooperated with this international team, but from colleagues

23     who were on the site I heard that sometimes international monitors also

24     became involved in onsite investigations, onsite investigations that

25     concerned incidents in which fewer people were killed.

Page 4091

 1        Q.   With regard to the Markale incident that you referred to, did you

 2     hear in the media that there was some, initially, confusion with regard

 3     to who was considered to be responsible for the Markale incident?

 4        A.   I heard about that, I saw the news on television.  I was shocked

 5     by the fact that such news was relayed.  They said that Bosnian soldiers

 6     had brought in dead, that they had used puppets or dolls, that the

 7     explosion had been staged and so on and so forth.

 8        Q.   I'm sure you were shocked by that.  Did you ever hear any

 9     criticism of the conclusions that were raised concerning Markale 2 in

10     terms of who was responsible for Markale 2 in the media?  And

11     specifically by any international individual or entity that had engaged

12     in an investigation of Markale 2?

13        A.   In that case, it was said that ABiH forces had deliberately

14     shelled Markale as a result of which a number of people were killed, but

15     with the assistance of international monitors who were active at the

16     time, and they actively observed the artillery positions of both sides.

17     With their assistance, it was established that there was no shelling by

18     the ABiH at the time.  It was established that there was shelling by the

19     VRS, and with their assistance it was established that the shelling was

20     from their side and that was relayed by the media, too.

21        Q.   I see.  So with regard to information that was relayed by the

22     media, there were in fact conflicting reports concerning who was

23     responsible for this shelling that were relayed by the media?

24        A.   The Republika Srpska media stated that the Muslims were firing on

25     themselves, were shelling themselves.  That's how it was.

Page 4092

 1        Q.   Now, do you know whether with regard to those incidents in which

 2     international teams were invited to investigate, whether or not any teams

 3     were invited to investigate from Serbia with regard to what had happened?

 4        A.   I don't remember anyone from Serbia or from the VRS participating

 5     in the onsite investigations into such incidents.

 6        Q.   And with regard to -- independent of Serbia, with regard to the

 7     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia do you recall any invitations being made

 8     to them to come to investigate issues concerning explosive incidents?

 9        A.   When onsite investigations were carried out, well, I know that no

10     one from that side was invited to participate in the investigation.  The

11     judge who carried out the onsite investigation decided on who would

12     participate in the incidents.  Whether anything was subsequently done,

13     whether any other subsequent procedure was followed by others, I don't

14     know.

15        Q.   And when you say that the Judge made the determination who would

16     investigate or who was invited to investigate the onsite, that judge was

17     a judge who was a part of the ABiH entity; correct?  The political

18     entity?

19        A.   I don't know what you mean by a political entity.  But at the

20     time the judiciary was functioning and the court had territorial

21     jurisdiction, and they carried out onsite investigations as they did in

22     other areas.

23        Q.   And the territorial jurisdiction, what I was referring to -- what

24     I meant -- when I said "political entity," I was referring to -- to what

25     I would call that part of what was considered to be Bosnia as a political

Page 4093

 1     state at that time.  That was the functioning court system; correct?  I

 2     mean, admittedly there was a war going on, but there was a functioning

 3     court system within the state of Bosnia; right?

 4        A.   The state was called the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the

 5     court functioned within that state.

 6        Q.   Okay.  To your knowledge during the period of the war, were any

 7     invitations made at any time to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to

 8     come investigate those matters that were being investigated by a judge

 9     from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   I never heard anything about such things.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I could have a moment.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  As always, thank goodness for Mr. Mair.

15        Q.   One last area which is, with regard to the markings that are

16     found on the shells, the fragments, you had mentioned in your statement

17     that there were a series, one of the markings may have indicated a series

18     from which they came.  And I take it when you said that you meant a

19     production series?  Are you following me?

20        A.   I said that I'm not an expert on that field.  I was the head of

21     the department in which there were experts on that field.  They used

22     information obtained from the books and documents that they had.  These

23     were documents that were also from the former JNA, and then on the basis

24     of those document, they made certain claims.  I would sign the relevant

25     documents to state that competent individuals had carried out the work.

Page 4094

 1     They were educated individuals, they knew what they were doing, and they

 2     were authorised to act in this way.

 3        Q.   And I take it when you say they were competent and they were

 4     educated, those individuals would be in a position to inform us with

 5     regard to what role the Ministry of Defence had, if any, in the

 6     production of these particular items?

 7        A.   I don't.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:

10        Q.   The Ministry of Defence of Serbia.

11        A.   I don't think anyone mentioned the Ministry of Defence of Serbia

12     then, they just mentioned the markings that were interpreted on the basis

13     of the information obtained from documents issued by the Ministry of

14     Defence of Yugoslavia.

15        Q.   I see.  So the situation is is that the markings established the

16     situs of the production of the item and nothing more?  I'm sorry, I don't

17     mean to be that limiting because there was more than that, there was also

18     a year on it.  I don't want to be limiting here.

19        A.   Yes, and the production series too.

20        Q.   With regard to the production series, my question is, did the

21     individuals that you were dealing with who were experienced in this

22     regard have any further information concerning what the significance was

23     of any particular production series, whether it be a 3 or a 9 or a 7?

24        A.   Well, I don't know what that would mean exactly in the case of

25     shells, but if something is produced in a series, then the series has

Page 4095

 1     been authorised on the base of the technical documents that are created

 2     for the given series.  The type of material is specified, and this

 3     determines the product, gives it a certain -- certain individual

 4     characteristics, a certain amount of material is used to create certain

 5     equipment.  That's a series.  When you have new material, then you have a

 6     different series of products.  I don't know what the exact meaning of

 7     these series is, but that is how one acted.  That is how this was done in

 8     technological terms.

 9        Q.   And you can't tell us, as you sit here today, if there's any

10     relationship between a series run - and by that I mean a production of a

11     particular series - and the entity that approved that particular series

12     run, can you?

13        A.   The information concerns information from documents that date

14     back to 1971.  They are copies of those documents that were used.  So no

15     one said which entity authorised the production of a given series.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  I thank you for your time.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

18             Any re-examination, Mr. Thomas?

19             MR. THOMAS:  No, Your Honours, thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Vejzagic, we've come to the conclusion of your testimony now.

22     I thank you very much for taking the time to come and testify.  You are

23     now excused, you may stand down, and please travel well back home.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 4096

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  That concludes the evidence for today, Your Honours.

 3     There is one minor administrative matter which I would like to raise and

 4     deal with regarding the allocation of an exhibit number relating to some

 5     previous testimony, but other than that, Your Honours, I have no other

 6     matters to raise today.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  You may deal with that administrative

 8     matter, sir.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, sir.  During the course of MP-014's

10     testimony, there was one exhibit that was comprised of four separate

11     photographs.  There was no objection to the admission of two of those

12     photographs, and the remaining two were MFI'd.  The -- we understand that

13     the position is that the two photographs which were admitted were given

14     an exhibit number of P599 and that we had to effectively reload the two

15     MFI'd photographs with a new 65 ter number to which needs to be

16     attributed a different exhibit number.

17             So I'm in a position, Your Honours, simply to identify that the

18     pages 3 and 4 of P599, which were marked for identification only, have

19     been uploaded again as 65 ter Exhibit number 08234.02.  And in respect of

20     that exhibit, I seek that they be admitted and marked for identification

21     and given an exhibit number as one exhibit number.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you still want them marked for identification?

23             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.  Yes, sir.  I think the reason why they had to

24     be separately uploaded was because we effectively had to split an exhibit

25     into the part that was entered into evidence without objection, and the

Page 4097

 1     part of the exhibit which was objected to.  They couldn't both go --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under one number.

 3             MR. THOMAS:  Under one number.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, I believe you followed that.  The

 5     last two pages of Exhibit 599 had been marked for identification together

 6     with the first two pages.  Now, the request is to split the two, the

 7     admitted part and the marked for identification part.  Can we mark the

 8     last two pages which are marked for identification, give them an exhibit

 9     number, and still mark them for identification under 65 ter 08234.02.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, those two photographs will be

11     Exhibit P651 marked for identification.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Was that all, Mr. Thomas?

13             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.  I've just received confirmation that

14     that's all.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In that event, that brings us to the conclusion of

16     today's session and we stand adjourned to Monday, the 9th of March, at

17     9.00 in the morning in Courtroom I.

18             Court adjourned.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.29 p.m.

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of March

21                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.