Page 5958
1 Monday, 11 May 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom.
8 Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon Your Honours to everybody in and
10 around the courtroom. This is case number IT -- 04-81-T, the Prosecutor
11 versus Momcilo Perisic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. May we have the appearances
13 for today, starting with the Prosecution.
14 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dan Saxon, Mr. Harmon,
15 and Ms. Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. And for the Defence.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
18 afternoon to everybody in and around the courtroom. Today appearing on
19 behalf of Mr. Perisic, Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec, Daniela Tasic,
20 Gregor Guy-Smith, and Mr. Lukic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 Good afternoon, sir.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to warn you that you are still bound by the
25 declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony, to tell the
Page 5959
1 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
2 WITNESS: RADE RASETA [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered though interpreter]
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
9 Q. Mr. Raseta, good afternoon.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. I will now remind both you and myself to make a pause after my
12 questions and I will, after your answers, so that we do not overlap in
13 our questions and answers, okay?
14 A. Yes, I understand.
15 Q. On Thursday, on the 7th, we wrapped up with the analysis of some
16 parts of the rules of service in the security organs of the armed forces
17 of the SFRY, and I would like to just take a look at two other articles
18 that have to do with what you testified to during the
19 examination-in-chief.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 6063,
21 page, in B/C/S, 12, and of the English version, page 14, and I'm
22 interested in Article 31.
23 Q. I will read out slowly this Article and I will stress certain
24 portions of it and ask you to comment on them.
25 Article 31 reads:
Page 5960
1 "When there is information or reasonable grounds to suspect that
2 a member of the armed forces or a member of an organisation for NVO is
3 involved in intelligence-related or other hostile activity, or that such
4 much activity can be justifiably expected, and if the security organ
5 believes that, for the purposes of shedding light on this activity, one
6 of the levels of operative processing should be introduced for this
7 person and that other methods and means that security organs apply in
8 carrying out tasks within their competent should be applied, or that
9 other measures, in accordance with the provisions of these rule, should
10 be taken through a superior security organ, they request permission to
11 take these measures from the officer under item 17 of these rules."
12 Now, does this Article deal with the operative work and operative
13 measures that the Honourable Judge Moloto mentioned, using a simpler,
14 term, spying - and you used the word processing - so is this Article
15 related to measures that are taken such a member of a unit, if this is an
16 threat that he could pose to the armed forces?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then the request would be forwarded to an officer mentioned
19 in Article 17, and on Thursday, when we analysed this Article, we saw
20 that this was an individual who was authorised by the then secretariat
21 and we concluded that this person would be either the chief of the
22 Security Administration of the General Staff, or of the army commanders.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In reply to Mr. Saxon's question, you talked about the main tasks
25 of the security organs. Is one of the tasks of this organ to also
Page 5961
1 monitor of possible threats to a unit from within the unit itself or
2 activities of, let's call the subversive elements within the unit,
3 itself.
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. And these are the measures that are mentioned in this Article;
6 correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. While you were the security organ in the JNA and the VJ, if you
9 obtained information that certain operative measures should be taken
10 against any individuals, or member of a unit, you would then request
11 authority or approval from your superior officers, and once you received
12 that approval, you would take action; correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Now let's see what the situation was with the methods and means
15 applied when you were the security organ in the Serbian army of Krajina.
16 When these members of the army came through the 40th Centre to
17 the Serbian army of Krajina, I believe that for a certain number of them,
18 you received information that they were already under certain measures,
19 surveillance measures in the army -- from the former Army of Yugoslavia;
20 correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. You did not get approval from any institution or individual of
23 the VJ at that time to monitor that person, but you actually did that,
24 pursuant to this rule; correct?
25 A. That is correct.
Page 5962
1 Q. And then, based on this rule that you applied as a security organ
2 in the Serbian army of Krajina, you then proceeded to do the operative
3 processing, and then you would inform thereof the Security
4 Administration; correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And you did that, because, as you explained, you used and applied
7 the means and methods provided for in this Article; correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Now a general question, again, related to this area to this
10 field.
11 Are aware when you worked in the Yugoslav army as the security
12 organ if an officer was sent to a mission abroad and was -- and that
13 person who under these certain measures, surveillance measures, would
14 that person still be under surveillance while abroad?
15 A. I don't have any specific information about any such instances,
16 but I think such a person would not be appointed to a mission abroad.
17 Q. All right. Let's not speculate. But if you receive information
18 that a certain individual is already -- an individual who is already
19 there if you receive information that such an individual --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. --
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. -- should be submitted or subjected to such operative measures --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: I think this question calls for speculation, Your
25 Honour.
Page 5963
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. All right. Please do not speculate just tell me, if you know in
3 your experience of any such cases, if not, I withdraw my question.
4 A. I do not know of any such cases.
5 Q. I withdraw my question, Your Honour.
6 And I will -- I have another question regarding another Article
7 from this document. That's Article 57, subparagraph (2).
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This should be on page -- all right.
9 We have it on the screens now. Thank you.
10 Q. This is a chapter, entire chapter that deals with the Security
11 Administration and all I would like to take a look at is Article 57,
12 paragraph 2, which reads:
13 "The Security Administration provides specialist management for
14 security organs and JNA commands, units, and institutions according to
15 the provisions of these rules and organises and directs their work of
16 importance for security."
17 Is that right? Now, while you were in the security organ in the
18 Serbian army of Krajina did the Security Administration of the Yugoslav
19 army ever direct or manage your work?
20 A. No, never.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I propose -- in view of
22 this being a very long document, and I am aware of your guidelines, but I
23 propose that we tender into evidence just the paragraph that I showed
24 this witness on Thursday, and the ones that I showed the witness today.
25 I don't know what the Prosecutor's position is but this document was on
Page 5964
1 our 65 ter list.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution has a number of
4 questions to ask about this document. Perhaps it might be best to wait
5 after we see redirect examination, and then we may seek to tender the
6 entire document.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, I would
8 propose even now that we tender it now in its entirety, but then let's
9 wait for completion of the redirect and then we can see whether we should
10 tender the entire document or just the articles and their relevant
11 portions.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, how many pages is the entire document.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was just coming to that. This
14 document in B/C/S, is 52 pages long, or, rather, 96 rules or articles.
15 Personally I believe and let me say at the outset, Your Honour, I believe
16 that both Mr. Saxon and I will agree that we could tender certain
17 chapters that are relevant and that are of interest for this trial and
18 for the Trial Chamber; and in that sense, I think maybe we can reach a
19 joint position.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will admitted the pages that you have referred
21 to now, if Mr. Saxon has to add further pages we'll add those pages at
22 that time.
23 So the pages that are given to [indiscernible] are admitted into
24 evidence, may it please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, those pages will be Exhibit D89.
Page 5965
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if the interpreters have
3 any problems with my microphone.
4 THE INTERPRETER: No, the interpreters do not have a problem with
5 your -- with Defence counsel's microphone.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: They have no problem.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I whether try to keep -- to switch
8 off my mic after my question.
9 Q. Mr. Raseta, I have a few more questions about your relationship
10 with the Security Administration while you were in the Serbian army of
11 Krajina. But that, I would like to clarify a few matters that have to do
12 generally with the status of Serbian officers in the Serbian Republic
13 Krajina.
14 Would you agree with me that the Serbian army of Krajina was a
15 unified army with all the elements in a structure that are typical of an
16 independent army?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. It was established and it functioned on the basis of a special
19 law on the army of the Serbian Republic
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you're probably aware that this law was passed, based on the
22 constitution of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Members of the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina had their
25 task to defend the territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, which
Page 5966
1 was clearly defined.
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. That army had a clear chain of command which was defined in the
4 law; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That chain of command was based on the basic principles, on which
7 any army functions: The subordination, unity of command, and joint --
8 and singleness of command. Do you agree with what I'm saying?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And any violation of this principle of subordination and unified
11 command would actually affect the chain of command in any army, and that
12 would also apply to the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You've provided some testimony in the Martic case on the chain of
15 command, in the SVK, if you recall, when you answered questions about the
16 relationship between Martic and Celeketic, especially in relation to the
17 actual role that Martic had under the constitution.
18 You said then and this is page 3914 of the transcript in the
19 Martic case, that Martic was a de facto and de jure supreme commander of
20 the SVK.
21 Do you recall saying that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. There was also a Supreme Defence Council of the RSK as the
24 supreme organ for the command and control of the SVK; correct?
25 A. That's correct.
Page 5967
1 Q. And it comprised the president of the republic, Martic, at a
2 certain time, then the commander of the SVK, the minister of Defence and
3 the prime minister; correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And only Martic, as president of the republic, could issue orders
6 to Celeketic, his highest army commander; correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. The Main Staff of the SVK was in charge of the operational work
9 but the president of the republic approved and issued decisions on the
10 use of the armed forces.
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. The Serbian army of Krajina was a totally independent army, both
13 in its structure an organisation, independent from the Army of
14 Yugoslavia
15 A. Correct.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: I'm just wondering. Perhaps some foundation could be
18 laid. What is the basis of the witness's knowledge for such a question.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm quite sure. Is that an objection.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
21 MR. SAXON: [Microphone not activated] ... to give an opinion,
22 Your Honour, and I'm simply not sure what the basis for his ability to
23 give that opinion is.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do we determine that this is an opinion that
25 he is giving?
Page 5968
1 Is he giving -- are you giving an opinion, sir, or are you giving
2 an answer from your knowledge? I don't know. Let me defer to you
3 Mr. Lukic. There's an objection.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I can rephrase my question.
5 But this line of questioning actually arises from the questions that were
6 put to this same witness in the Martic case and also the questions that
7 the Prosecutor put to the -- the witness in his examination-in-chief.
8 And I can also give you references of those. But I can also rephrase the
9 question, as Mr. Saxon --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you want to rephrase the question, do so by all
11 means.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Raseta, you performed significant and responsible duties in
14 the SVK and you were the deputy commander of security and member of the
15 Main Staff; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All the questions that I have put to you, are they based on your
18 opinion or your experience in view of the positions that you held?
19 A. These were facts.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. When you testified on Thursday, on page 5881 [as interpreted],
23 line 19 of the transcript, you were -- you discussed -- or you talked
24 about your transfer from the Yugoslav army to the SVK, and you said then
25 that you were assigned for temporary duty in the SVK and that you were
Page 5969
1 released of your duty in the Army of Yugoslavia and that your deputies
2 were appointed to your post.
3 Have I understood that correctly?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And on that -- at that moment practically or factually your
6 duty -- your role in the chain of command in the Yugoslav army ended;
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Through the 40th Personnel Centre, certain status-related issues
10 and entitlements of yours were resolved, which you had previously enjoyed
11 in the VJ, and this is something that you've already testified about; is
12 that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When you crossed over to the chain of command of the Serbian army
15 of Krajina, the Chief of Staff Loncar was your superior -- or no.
16 Initially, you held the position of assistant chief of security for
17 operational -- or, rather, let me leave it to you to explain what it was
18 you were.
19 A. I was the head of the information an analysis section, and I was
20 subordinated to the chief of security of the Main Staff.
21 Q. Both in terms of the command line and the security line.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Let us clear this up.
24 Where a certain officer, as a security organ, was a member of his
25 own security structure, that person was subordinated to the superior
Page 5970
1 along the security chain of command; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was it Smiljanovic at the time.
4 A. Initially it was Vuk Dmitrovic and then it was Dusan Smiljanovic
5 afterwards.
6 Q. When you were pointed assistant commander for security of the
7 Serbian army of Krajina or let's just put it simply, security organ of
8 the SVK. In the chain of command the only person who was superior to you
9 was General Celeketic, was it not?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Under the specialist chain of command, you were the
12 highest-ranking officer of that particular chain; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Let us briefly look at a portion of the statement you gave to the
15 OTP, 1D00-9162.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have that on our screen,
17 please. Paragraph 82, which is at page 26 of the B/C/S version and page
18 18 of the English version. I'm interested in only one issue -- or,
19 rather, one short portion of the statement.
20 Wait for the English translation.
21 Q. Here you referred to a report, and I'm interested in the bottom
22 part of the paragraph, which starts with the following words:
23 "It was inconceivable."
24 The statement reads: "It was inconceivable that Celeketic issued
25 such an order without the prior approval of Milan Martic. I sent my
Page 5971
1 report to Celeketic and my counterpart in the VJ, Dimitrijevic, but I'm
2 not aware of any reaction from their side."
3 Do you still maintain the extent of what you said and that was
4 that Aleksandar Dimitrijevic as chief of security in the VJ was your
5 counterpart, you being in the SVK.
6 A. I think that this must have been an error in the interpretation
7 or I must have been misunderstood. I did send a report, but I could not
8 describe the relationship in terms of him being a counterpart. He was a
9 commander of the corps. Or maybe I misunderstood the question.
10 Q. I asked you a moment ago about the fact that the SVK was an
11 independent army, quite a separate entity from the VJ. You held the
12 highest security position in the SVK. Aleksandar Dimitrijevic, at the
13 time, held the highest position in the security organ of the VJ. There
14 was a relationship of cooperation and that -- between the two of you and
15 that's how I perceived you described your relationship by referring to
16 him as a counterpart of yours. In other words, there was not a
17 superior/subordinate relationship, in terms of -- of where the two of you
18 stood.
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Thank you. We don't need the document anymore.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we remove the document. At page 13,
22 line 19 to 20, Witness, you said -- talking about Mr. Dimitrijevic, that
23 he was a commander of the corps. Were you being -- did you -- were you
24 misinterpreted here or do you still say he was a commander of the corps,
25 now that you have clarified that he was head of security, not commander
Page 5972
1 of the corps?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This had to do with a report that
3 was send to General Dimitrijevic, and the report had to do with
4 Colonel Gacic, who was a corps commander.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry, sorry. I'm talking about how you
6 have been interpreted in the transcript today. I don't know whether you
7 can see and whether you do understand the English here. At page 13 of
8 the transcript, in front of you, at line 20, you say "he was a commander
9 of the corps."
10 You have just agreed now with Mr. Lukic that in fact he was your
11 counterpart, being head of the security in the VJ. I'm just saying,
12 which is which between those two? Were you being -- were you
13 misinterpreted or -- or did you make a mistake when you said he was a
14 commander of the corps? That's all I want to ...
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my report had to do
16 with Colonel Gacic, commander of the 39th Corps. The report had to do
17 with husband activity. And it was about him that I reported to
18 General Dimitrijevic. I reported to him about the conduct of the
19 commander of the 39th Corps, Colonel Gacic.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hear your answer, sir, but you're not answering
21 my question.
22 What I want to know is, was Mr. Dimitrijevic, was he your
23 counterpart at this time; or was he commander of the corps of the VJ?
24 Because you have given these two answers today. I just want to know
25 which is correct and which is not correct.
Page 5973
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Dimitrijevic was, at the
2 time, chief of the Security Administration of the General Staff of the
3 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: He was commander of the corps. Thank you so much.
5 You may proceed.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can see an error in the
8 interpretation of what you asked, Your Honour. I understood you to say
9 that he was not a commander of the corps.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, that's what I said, and, yeah, it is
11 misprinted here. It says it quotes me as saying he was a commander of
12 the corps, but he was not.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Let me ask you something about the reports you sent, when you
15 were in the JNA, VJ, and at a later date, in the SVK.
16 When you were the security organ of the 3rd Army of the VJ, and
17 in general, in the VJ, how often did you send reports to your superior
18 within the security chain of command?
19 A. Almost on a daily basis.
20 Q. In the SVK, you were from November 1993 up until August of 1995,
21 for almost two years, and it was my understanding that you sent two types
22 of reports to the Security Administration; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I'm getting lost because of the
25 question you put.
Page 5974
1 You're saying at line 3, page 16:
2 "When you were the security organ of the 3rd Army of the VJ, and
3 in general in the VJ," -- you were talking when he was in the army of the
4 VJ. My apologies.
5 MR. LUKIC: Just a second, Your Honour.
6 Q. [Interpretation] A group of these reports were reports about the
7 use of methods and means of operative processing, employed vis-a-vis the
8 officers that you monitored; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The second group of these reports were pieces of information
11 about certain events that you deemed necessary to inform
12 General Dimitrijevic of, and there were five or six such reports spanning
13 the entire period that you referred to; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In relation to the first group of reports, you said that there
16 were relatively few individuals who were subjects of operative
17 processing; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. At page 5922 of the transcript, line 20, and at pages 5923, 5924
20 and 5, you testified that Dimitrijevic did not seek reports from you
21 relating to the security situation, rather, you sent these reports based
22 on your personal assessment; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Likewise, in relation to reports on operative processing, you
25 sent those reports gratuitously and they were not solicited from him; is
Page 5975
1 that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can I then conclude that I sent these reports by way of a
4 relationship of cooperation between two friendly armies.
5 A. Yes. That would be the closest to explaining it.
6 Q. Let me ask you something about your transfer to the SVK.
7 In your testimony on Thursday, you described an episode which
8 preceded your departure for the SVK, and which had to do with your
9 superior officer, Kuzmanovic, and about the fact that he himself being --
10 hailing from the area of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, he should have
11 served as an example by going there first?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Am I right in understanding that you didn't mind the fact that
14 did he not particularly go, rather, the fact that he seemed to be so pro
15 activity about the entire issue without himself joining the other army.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember that under the law of the Army of Yugoslavia any
18 secondment of a soldier to another army had to be executed with the
19 individual involved being entitled to appeal the decision; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You did not appeal the decision, pursuant to which you were sent
22 to the SVK, did you?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. Let us look at another document you were shown in your direct
25 examination and which has to do with this topic.
Page 5976
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P1865, can we please have it on our
2 screens.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we have that on the screen, what do you
4 want to do with 1D00-9162.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will revert to my old practice,
6 where I will only read for the transcript a portion of a witness
7 statement without asking for it to be tendered. This is a part of the
8 statement that a witness gave to the OTP.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. The document you've already testified to will now appear on our
12 screens.
13 You've already had an opportunity to see the document and to
14 testify about it. This document dated 7th October 1994, which is roughly
15 a year following your departure for the SVK; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'm reading the preamble now:
18 "Pursuant to the order of the VJ chief of the General Staff,
19 strictly confidential number 3480 I, dated 4 October 1994, and after the
20 interviews held with professional officers and non-commissioned officers
21 with the VJ chief of the General Staff regarding transfer an appointment
22 to the 40th Personnel Centre ..."
23 The text follows from there.
24 Are you aware of such interviews having been held, although, at
25 the time you were, of course, in the SVK, that the officers that were
Page 5977
1 supposed to join the SVK spoke with officers and the chief of the VJ
2 General Staff about that transfer?
3 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
4 Q. Let us look at the text under item 8.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down, please.
6 Q. The text under 8 reads, and this part of the text refers to the
7 eight individuals mentioned above:
8 "For the above mentioned persons (I stress out)" -- "so for the
9 above mentioned persons again (I stress again) take written statements
10 and submit them by courier to the 3rd Army command at the latest on the
11 12th of October 1994."
12 Did you know that certain officers when asked to join the SVK,
13 had to give written statement, signing them stating that it was their
14 wish to go or not to go and join the SVK?
15 A. No, I was not aware.
16 Q. And just one last comment and let's see if you're aware of that?
17 Under 21, under this number, it says Roman II mention is made
18 that action should be taken for cancellation of service for these two
19 individuals under number 1 and 2, termination of their professional
20 military service. It says below that:
21 "On the meeting held with the chief of the general staff of the
22 VJ, the above mentioned persons stated that they would like to terminate
23 their professional military service with their right for retirement. The
24 above mentioned persons have to be called for an official interview
25 immediately and their request for termination of professional military
Page 5978
1 service should be forwarded to ..." and it says to whom.
2 Are you aware of the fact that some officers because they did not
3 wish to join the SVK or for some other personal reasons submitted their
4 own requests for release from service. Are you aware of that?
5 A. No, I'm not.
6 Q. You mentioned the case of a colleague Svilar, who refused for
7 personal reasons or family reasons to be transferred to the SVK, and he
8 was transferred to a different post. Did he retire soon thereafter, do
9 you know or did he remain in position?
10 A. He was in that new position for a very brief time, and in view of
11 the fact that he had already met one of the requirements for early
12 retirement he decided to retire and return to Macedonia.
13 Q. And in fact he submitted, on his own, a request to be retired;
14 correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When he decided not to go to the SVK, he was not proclaimed to be
17 a deserter and he remained within the VJ and then submitted his request
18 for retirement; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In your group, from the 3rd Army, if I remember what you said,
21 you mentioned that some 20 officers were transferred; correct?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: That some 20
23 officers left.
24 A. That's correct.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5979
1 Q. When you arrived there in the SVK at the time there were already
2 quite a number of officers who had stayed behind who were in the JNA
3 earlier; correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Do you know maybe -- although I think you didn't know the answer
6 to that question. Do you know overall how many officers and
7 non-commissioned officers were there in the SVK?
8 A. I cannot provide that information.
9 Q. You also know that the Yugoslav army was established after the
10 promulgation of the new constitution of the Federal Republic
11 Yugoslavia
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Under that constitution and the Law on The army, it protected --
14 this army protected a different territory, not the same territory that
15 was protected -- had been protected by the JNA.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. This was a new army, which had a different task, a different
18 territory to protect, as it were?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Just one more clarification I'd like to see if you were aware of
21 it.
22 Mr. Saxon asked you about the ethnic composition of the members
23 of the SVK and their ethnic background and you said Mr. Celeketic was
24 from Vojvodina. Do you recall saying that?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5980
1 Q. Do you know that his family actually hails from Lika?
2 A. Yes, I'm very well aware of that. His father, Petar, was from
3 Lika.
4 Q. And Lika was, at the time, in the Republic of Serbian Krajina
5 correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And a brief question regarding your Thursday testimony, when you
8 talked about the visits of Mr. Mrksic and General Velickovic. That's on
9 page 5907 of the transcript and when Velickovic addressed you and said
10 this was all the same sky, meaning the sky over Yugoslavia and the sky
11 over the Republic of Serbian Krajina; correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Tell us, please, during Operation Flash and Operation Storm,
14 because this was the same sky, did you receive any assistance from the
15 Army of Yugoslavia
16 A. No.
17 Q. All right. We'll move on to a different topic now and I will ask
18 questions about certain disciplinary measures that were taken and
19 disciplinary action.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.
21 Could we now please pull up on the screens the rule on the
22 Serbian army of Krajina. The last session, Your Honour, we only tendered
23 one article, and now I would like to take a look at another one. That's
24 65 ter 06367 and I would like Article 161. Unfortunately, it hasn't been
25 translated into English but as this is only one Article, I will read it
Page 5981
1 out here.
2 Q. Mr. Raseta, as you can see this is part of the Law on Army of the
3 Serbian Krajina which was published in the Official Gazette of the
4 Republic of Serbian Krajina and I would just like to take at -- a look at
5 Chapter 13 where disciplinary responsibility and action is discussed and
6 Article 161 reads and you tell me if I have read this correctly.
7 "As a breach of military discipline, any act of a military
8 person" -- "any act of a military person will be considered a breach of
9 military discipline in keeping with the rules of service and other" --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Defence counsel please make sure that
11 the proper article is on the screen for the interpreter's sake.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, there's a request from the interpreters
13 that you make sure that the proper article is on the screen. I see
14 Article 161 on my screen. I don't know whether the interpreters do or
15 not see it.
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do see it now. Thank you,
17 Your Honour. But it was being scrolled while the text was being read
18 out.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Can we not scroll it down while it is it
20 being read.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If necessary, yes, I probably just
22 read out first the entire title of this chapter, but for the
23 interpreter's benefit I will now read just this article, Article 161.
24 And we haven't had this translated, unfortunately.
25 "Any military person who takes action which is contrary to the
Page 5982
1 duties of military service as provided for in the Law, shall be
2 considered to be in breach of military discipline," so any actions that
3 in contravention of the law, the rules of service and other provisions,
4 orders and other enactments of superior officers which have to do with
5 the service and especially."
6 And then a whole number of different items mentioned, but I will
7 only read number 2:
8 "Absence without leave from a unit or institution or from
9 service."
10 I assume that you were aware of this regulation, Mr. Raseta;
11 correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Those individuals who left the Army of the Serbian Krajina
14 without leave and returned to the units of the Yugoslav army were not
15 subject to disciplinary procedure in the Army of Yugoslavia; is that
16 right?
17 A. That's right.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON: It hasn't been established that the witness is aware
20 of any such individuals, Your Honour, that I'm aware of.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right. Let's be more precise.
23 Q. Mr. Raseta let's just talk about what the -- the things that you
24 know.
25 Now, do you know whether, in the Army of Yugoslavia, any
Page 5983
1 proceedings would be instituted for a deserter from a member of the army
2 of the Serbian Krajina?
3 A. I do not know of that.
4 Q. And do you know whether individuals who left without leave - a
5 unit - were subjected to military proceedings in the SVK?
6 A. Yes. All individuals who left or who were absent without leave
7 from the SVK were subjected to proceedings and a request was forwarded to
8 the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia for such individuals to be
9 returned to the SVK.
10 I don't know of any instances nor I do recall that any such
11 individual was returned to the SVK.
12 Q. Well, just to be clear, I was asking you about the proceedings
13 within the SVK itself. But you are talking about the requests submitted
14 to the Yugoslav army for those individuals to be returned back to the
15 SVK; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would there be previously disciplinary proceedings undertaken so
18 that -- against such individuals and then, following that, there would be
19 a request to the Army of Yugoslavia to return those individuals; correct?
20 A. Of course.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see document P1147,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. Well, I propose, like last
25 time for only this page or this Article, rather, to be tendered into
Page 5984
1 evidence.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't have it in English, sir. [Overlapping
3 speakers] ...
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I also propose then that we
5 tender it as a MFI
6 Article 116 to be translated into English.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON: That last point was my concern, and it has been
9 clarified. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That it be MFI
11 MR. SAXON: [Microphone not activated]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: 06367 is admitted into evidence and marked for
13 identification. May it please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D90, marked for identification,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Raseta, I don't know if you had occasion to see this document
19 already. If not, you can take a look at it, please?
20 A. Do you mean the document that is before me on the screen?
21 Q. Yes, that one.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just scroll it down a little
23 bit so that the witness can see the signature.
24 A. I have read it, and this is the first time that I see this
25 document.
Page 5985
1 Q. Well, I will only have two questions for you.
2 So this is a document from the Main Staff of the SVK sent, on the
3 14th of December, to RC RMO of the Yugoslav. Do you recall what this
4 means?
5 A. Yes, this is the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence of
6 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia [Realtime transcript read in error
7 "Yugoslav army"] I think that is what it refers to.
8 Q. Did you receive your salaries via this accounting centre, and the
9 salaries were actually deposited in your accounts in Yugoslavia?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you know of instances where individuals would be absent
12 without leave and that they would still be receiving pay for that?
13 A. I don't have such information, but there probably were such
14 instances; otherwise this document would not exist.
15 Q. This Colonel, Colonel Krnjajic, do you know this person. He was
16 involved in personnel; correct?
17 A. Yes, correct. Now you have helped me read out the name because
18 it wasn't very clear this is was Dusan Krnjajic, and he was the personnel
19 officer in the Main Staff of the SVK.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I move to tender this document into
21 evidence. Oh no, I apologise, it is already an exhibit.
22 I would just like to clarify something because I think there is
23 an error here on page 27, line 11.
24 Q. You said the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence but you
25 didn't say of the Yugoslav army because those are different institutions?
Page 5986
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. This letter was sent, to be more precise, to the accounting
3 service of the Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. When an officer from the SVK submitted a request to return to the
6 Yugoslav army, he would have to submit that request to his superior
7 officer in the SVK; is that right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And on page 5927 you said that requests submitted by officers,
10 whose tour of duty or term of duty had expired, that their request to
11 return were discussed at the collegium of the Main Staff of the Republic
12 of Serbian Krajina; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And if the collegium of the Main Staff or the officer in charge
15 did not provide such an approval and that person left, that would
16 actually be desertion that would be absence without leave; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you began your duty in the SVK, your post, your formation
19 post, was established by your superior officer or the competent officer
20 in the Serbian army of Krajina; correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And that information, as to what position you were posted to, was
23 sent by their personnel service to the 40th Personnel Centre, in order to
24 take care of the status-related issues; correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5987
1 Q. During that one year, when you went to work in that army, other
2 army, you said that Celeketic had talked to Dimitrijevic, who had told
3 him that they did not find an adequate substitute for you, and that,
4 therefore, you had to remain performing your duty there.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you not have any objections to make on that decision; is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And later on, when you held the position on which you were able
10 to speak to Mr. Dimitrijevic on a par, you did not tell him that you
11 objected against his statement that he should -- you should carry on your
12 duty in the army.
13 A. No. Because he told me that he would find an adequate substitute
14 for me.
15 Q. In the mean time, you continued with duties in the SVK and
16 gradually were promoted to a position that was higher to any of the
17 positions that you held in the VJ.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And your establishment post was higher than the post that you
20 left in the VJ when you went to join the SVK?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let us discuss now another document you talked about on Thursday,
23 and that's P2333, which is Celeketic's letter, sent to General Perisic,
24 in relation to certain SVK officers.
25 Certain information is provided about the whereabouts of all of
Page 5988
1 individuals listed in this letter; is that right? Or rather not the
2 whereabouts but which positions and establishment posts they held.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Among others under number 3, the commander of the 39 Corps is
5 mentioned. Then also the 21st Corps is mentioned, the 18th Corps, the is
6 15th Corps, and finally the 7th corps.
7 Tell us, all the corps mentioned here were, in fact, various
8 titles for the SVK Corps; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Corps bearing such titles did not exist in the Yugoslav army, VJ,
11 did they?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Under number 1 there is an individual mentioned who you referred
14 to, but let us look first at the date. This is it a document dated 10
15 December 1994; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Under 1, the individual by the Dusan Loncar, son of Mitar is
18 mentioned, and he is the Chief of Staff -- he is a Deputy Commander as
19 well, and he is an OMJ colonel?
20 A. It is not that he occupies the position of the chief of the
21 Main Staff of the SVK; rather, he is being nominated to that post.
22 Q. Very well. This nomination to the post of the Chief of Staff,
23 his rank, which should be verified in the VJ, is that something that
24 matters to him a great deal on account of his salary?
25 A. Of course, definitely.
Page 5989
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
2 MR. SAXON: I don't know how this witness can speak -- well, the
3 answer has been given but I don't know how this witness can be ...
4 [Microphone not activated].
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure whether you spoke; when you
6 spoke, your mic was on or not.
7 MR. SAXON: The witness has given his answer, Your Honour. I
8 withdraw it.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
10 Proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness testified to
12 this position of theirs which later on reflected itself on their
13 status-related rights, and I think this is something that he talked about
14 on the direct. I may be mistaken, but I will withdraw the question, yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is withdrawn, sir.
16 MR. SAXON: To be fair to Mr. Lukic he is absolutely right, and I
17 am withdrawing my objection.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is withdrawn, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I suggest
20 that we take our break now.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.
22 Court adjourned.
23 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
Page 5990
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Raseta, we will stay with this document for
3 another moment.
4 The document reads in respect of Dusan Loncar, "duty" -- let me
5 be precise:
6 "Duty, Chief of Staff, and, at the same time, Deputy Commander,
7 at the Main Staff of the VJ 40th Personnel Centre."
8 In view of your recent answer, I put it to you, and we will have
9 a look at another document, I don't know if you will agree with me or
10 disagree with me, at the point when this document was composed on the
11 10th December, he already held the position of the Chief of Staff, but
12 this position of his had only to be acknowledged by the VJ.
13 Would you agree with me and could you confirm for me whether he
14 was already the Chief of Staff at the time?
15 A. I can't confirm that because I am not familiar with it.
16 Q. We'll look at another document, but let's just keep in mind the
17 date of this document, namely, the 10th of December, 1994; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Let us now call up document D87.
20 Have a look at the document and I will have a couple of questions
21 for you.
22 A. I've read it.
23 Q. This is a decision, issued by the President of the Republic of
24 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Mr. Milan Martic, concerning exceptional
25 promotion of Mr. Loncar, and it's the same Dusan Loncar we referred to
Page 5991
1 earlier; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. As you see, the date of the document is only six days after the
4 earlier document; namely, the date is the 16th of December.
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. And by virtue of this decision he is promoted to the rank of the
7 major-general. And will you agree with me that at the time he was
8 already chief of the SVK -- or, rather, Chief of Staff, on the position
9 of the Chief of Staff?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
12 MR. SAXON: Simply a request. If counsel and the witness could
13 slowdown just a little bit and perhaps pause between question and answer,
14 because at times -- Mr. Lukic is already on his next question, but I even
15 hear the English translation and does not give me an ability, if I can or
16 need to, to respond or make an objection.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
18 But, Mr. Lukic --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The fact that -- the fact that this document is
21 dated the 16th of December, 1994, a date after the 10th of December, it
22 doesn't say anything about whether or not he was already Chief of Staff
23 on the 10th of December. If it predated the 10th of December, I would
24 understand. But I'm not quite sure whether it is serving your purposes.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness was unable to
Page 5992
1 answer either my earlier question or this one, I will not insist on this.
2 I hoped, perhaps that the document would refresh his memory, but,
3 evidently the witness is not familiar with the details.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Another brief question, in relation to your Thursday testimony.
7 I think it was at page 5930 of the transcript that you talked
8 about the fact that Martic gave you a task concerning an amount of fuel
9 that was supposed to arrive from Yugoslavia
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. You received this task directly from Milan Martic; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. At the time when he gave you this task, he was already the
14 president of the republic, was he not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You don't know if the fuel was purchased in the Federal Republic
17 of Yugoslavia
18 Pancevo. You don't know by which means they obtained the fuel.
19 A. No. I only know where it was that I waited for the column to
20 arrive.
21 Q. At any rate, you did not receive the task from Celeketic but
22 directly from the president; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let us now briefly discuss your reports, i.e., the reports sent
25 to the Security Administration, and which you testified about.
Page 5993
1 Let's look at document 2334?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that a P document, or do you --
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P.
4 Q. This is your report dated the 2nd of May, 1995; is that right?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Am I right if I say that the gist of this report, why it was
7 sent, was the emergency situation in which the territory of the Republic
8 of Serbian Krajina found itself in the aftermath of Operation Flash?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. When you look at the first part of the document, in many
11 respects, it seems to me to be a combat report, because it refers to the
12 situation in the theatre of war, more of a combat report than an
13 intelligence report, and you will correct me if I'm wrong.
14 A. No, you're right.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 3 of the B/C/S
16 version, and 5 of the English version.
17 Q. There's one sentence that I find interesting, and I'd like to
18 have your comment on it.
19 You referred here to a meeting which was held by the Supreme
20 Defence Council in its extended, enlarged form; and you say there, all
21 the participants in the discussions and in their proposals agreed not to
22 cave in to the Ustashas. However, there are different approaches on how
23 to resolve the situation. Except for Martic, Celeketic and the narrow
24 corps of the Main Staff, all the other ones were in favour of a peaceful
25 solution to the newly arisen situation and that as a precondition they
Page 5994
1 suggest that the 18th Corps commander sign a cease-fire agreement with
2 the commander of the opposing side which would mean, which would imply, a
3 surrender and a capitulation of this part of the territory."
4 Mr. Raseta, you were probably familiar at the time with the fact
5 that the leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was in favour
6 of a peaceful solution of any sort of conflict in the territory of the
7 Serbian Republic
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Yes, we have to have an audible answer from you.
10 In your view, this piece of information which shows what line of
11 thinking of the strict political and military leadership of the RSK was
12 important to be conveyed to the federal leadership [as interpreted], in
13 order to clearly see what their attitude towards the conflict was, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In other words, what you were doing as a security organ --
16 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry, but I believe that question calls for
17 speculation, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Right.
20 Q. Let me put the question this way. Or, rather, Your Honour, what
21 I'm seeking from the witness is a comment, in other words let me put this
22 question to the witness.
23 Why did you believe that you needed to convey this part of your
24 report about the attitude that various individuals had toward the
25 conflict? Why did you feel it important to be sent to the Security
Page 5995
1 Administration?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: The problem with -- the problem with that question is
4 that because of the previous question, the witness has effectively been
5 given an answer, so I don't know what weight could be given to a
6 response.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do agree it's a question of weight this time.
8 MR. SAXON: I agree, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 Proceed, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Raseta, can you answer my question?
13 A. This is my answer: A lot of time has passed in the meantime. I
14 know that President Martic and Celeketic were not in favour of a peaceful
15 solution to the problem. They wanted to return with -- to return fire.
16 The other participants were of the opinion as described in the document,
17 that through negotiations and through peaceful means, a resolution to the
18 problem should be sound.
19 Q. In your view, the information, when conveyed to the federal army,
20 about what the resolution of the conflict situation would be, would that
21 be important to them?
22 A. Of course. That's why I informed the Security Administration
23 thereof.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I take it up on your behalf.
25 Mr. Lukic, that question had just been objected to a little
Page 5996
1 earlier and you rephrased it in an acceptable manner, but for the fact of
2 weight. I don't know now why you abandon the acceptable question and go
3 back to the objectionable question.
4 You had asked the question, sir, why did you find it important to
5 report this difference of opinion by Martic and Celeketic to the
6 leadership in -- in Serbia
7 went on in his mind at that time. But now you're asking him about why
8 you think it is -- why he should think it's important for the Serbians to
9 get this report.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't think that this constitutes
11 speculation. I suppose that this was a sort of information a security
12 organ should convey, and I believe that that's how the witness sees the
13 situation, and I don't think this calls for speculation on the part of
14 the witness. What is specific about this witness, perhaps we can ask him
15 to leave the courtroom and then we can discuss the matter.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: There is no need for him to leave the courtroom.
17 When you say "in your view," that's how you started your
18 question, you're seeking an opinion. But when you say, Why did you send
19 this report? Why did you find it important to send this report; you're
20 asking him about what happened in his mind. The way you are putting the
21 question, you want him to tell us what happened in the mind of the people
22 to whom he was sending the report, and that is speculation.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mm-hmm.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you see the difference?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do. I'm trying to rephrase the
Page 5997
1 question now.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do, sir.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. According to you, at the time when you sent such reports, was it
5 important that you do convey information to the allied [Realtime
6 transcript read in error "applied"] army?
7 A. Of course. Because this was a very delicate situation, the
8 situation in which some elements of the SVK found themselves, and that's
9 why I thought it important to inform my chief of the administration about
10 it. The chief of the specialist department of my corps was killed. This
11 is something that is not mentioned in here and that's why it was very
12 important for me to convey the information.
13 Q. So that would have been important, because the corps -- the chief
14 that particular section was sent through the 40th Personnel Centre; is
15 that why?
16 A. No. But he had held the rank of lieutenant-colonel; that's why.
17 Q. In your view, the information was information -- was important --
18 at the time you compiled this report, you felt that it was important for
19 the information to be perceived as important for the security of the
20 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
21 A. Precisely.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're waiting for me. I have nothing to say.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Can you answer the question, please?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question has been answered.
Page 5998
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Oh, yes, right. I didn't
2 see it in the transcript. Sorry. Very well.
3 Q. Let us look at another report and that is P1018.
4 This is another interim report, one of the group of reports which
5 dealt with the situation; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It was sent on the 3rd of August of 1995, at the time of the
8 commencement of Operation Storm, in the territory of the RSK; is that
9 right?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to page 2, please, of the
12 B/C/S version, and page 2 of the English version.
13 Q. In the first paragraph two acronyms are mentioned. And can you
14 tell us what they stand for, HIS and SOS
15 Do you see that in the second paragraph. HIS or SOS of the western
16 countries?
17 A. SOS
18 for Croatian intelligence service. I can't give you the exact title. S
19 stands for security in Croatian.
20 At any rate, it is the Croatian intelligence service and foreign
21 intelligence services of the west.
22 Q. In the next paragraph you say:
23 "It was ascertained that over 80 percent of the disinformation
24 was sent through UNPROFOR. In most cases through liaison officers and
25 various friendly relations, but in both cases making sure that the
Page 5999
1 disinformation reaches the highest levels (commanders of brigades),"
2 et cetera.
3 Could you explain or interpret this. What is this about? What
4 type of disinformation are you talking about here?
5 A. Well, I cannot remember the specifics right now. I know that
6 there was -- there were such instances and I know that we verified that,
7 but I cannot recall at this point what they were about.
8 Q. All right. Now, according to you, was it important at this time,
9 in terms of security of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, to know how
10 the UNPROFOR functioned in view of the negotiations that were under way
11 where the Yugoslav role was significant?
12 A. Of course. They to be significant.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We can remove this document. And
14 could we now please pull up --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do so, sir. I have been to trying
16 desperately to find the acronym, SOS, on the English version of this
17 document and I'm not seeing it. Can I see it on the B/C/S version.
18 Maybe I'm missing something somewhere.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You're absolute right, Your Honour.
20 In English it says western security and intelligence services and that's
21 probably the full name of the -- actually the development of the acronym.
22 And that's the same problem that we've had before with the translation
23 service, where the acronym is missing, and I agree with you there is no
24 mention -- there is no acronym SOS
25 SOS
Page 6000
1 translated --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, sir.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up
4 Exhibit P2336.
5 Q. You have already testified in relation to this document. This is
6 a report prepared by you that was sent on the 26th of May, 1995, but it
7 was sent to the commander of the SVK; is that right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And my understanding, as to the contents of this document, is
10 that you -- that it is to be checked why the order that was issued by
11 General Celeketic, the order to shell the Sisak refinery, why it was not
12 carried out; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now let's take a look at the date of this document. It's dated
15 26th of May, 1995; right?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. In fact, you're sending this report to the new commander of the
18 SVK, who was appointed on the 18th of May, 1995, General Mrksic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just bear with me a moment. I will
22 have a few questions about the dismissal of -- or replacement of
23 General Celeketic and we should try and remember this date.
24 Q. But, in any case, as claimed in the indictment, General Mrksic
25 was appointed as the commander of the SVK on the 18th of May, 1995. If
Page 6001
1 you don't recall the date, I won't insist on it.
2 A. I'm not sure of the exact date. But it was in May, that's for
3 sure.
4 Q. Well, I have to note, as you read the entire report, to me, it
5 seemed illogical that this was sent to General Celeketic where in fact
6 you are discussing General Celeketic in the report itself.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The information that you related to the commander of the SVK on
9 26th of May, that Gacic did not carry out the orders, you did not submit
10 this report to the Security Administration; is that correct?
11 A. That's right. I did not.
12 Q. And now just a few questions regarding the daily situation
13 reports that were sent by the command of the Main Staff of the SVK to,
14 among others, the General Staff of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,
15 and the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and the president of
16 Serbia
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now, could we please pull up
18 document 1023 --
19 THE INTERPRETER: P or 5? The interpreter is not sure.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does P or 5 mean, sir? This document 1023 is
21 it an exhibit already.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is. Exhibit P1023.
23 Q. This is the order by General Mile Novakovic when he was a
24 commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Krajina. You've already
25 testified to this. You said that he assumed but you weren't sure that
Page 6002
1 VSO meant the Supreme Defence Council of the federal republic and it
2 says:
3 "In order to achieve full and high quality drawing up of combat
4 reports and their timely submission to the VJ GS ..."
5 Correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And then you list a number of bits of information that -- and
8 reports that are to be drawn up, such as the movement of enemy forces and
9 so on. You are aware and you're familiar with this type of information;
10 correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up another
13 document, Exhibit P1617.
14 Q. I don't know if you have already seen this document, so I will
15 give you a chance to see it now and read it.
16 If you've read through this document let me ask you this: This
17 document is dated 6 February, 1993
18 transferred to the SVK, now, do you agree when you read this document and
19 see what the purpose of this request, as it is stated here, and when you
20 compare it to the previous document, that, in fact, the purpose or the
21 goal, the end is the same. The request refers to the same goal.
22 A. Well, since I did not take part in the drafting, and I wasn't
23 there at the time I could not really give you an answer. Have I my
24 opinion about it, but --
25 Q. No, no. Let's not go there. But would you agree with me in
Page 6003
1 terms of what type of information is requested here, it is similar to the
2 one that we've seen earlier sent by General Novakovic?
3 A. Well, yes, in essence, it's about the same.
4 Q. And mention is also made in this document, this request, that
5 these reports be submitted that they should also be sent to the SVK.
6 Now let me ask you: Did you -- was there in place a system of
7 exchange of information with the VRS, both in terms of security and
8 operative information?
9 A. Well, I can say almost none.
10 Q. Well, that's what you said in your report. But do you know
11 whether intelligence and combat operation -- information was exchanged in
12 such reports?
13 A. I couldn't answer that question.
14 Q. Mr. Raseta, are you aware of the systems of communications that
15 existed in the former JNA, that existed on the entire territory of the
16 former Yugoslavia
17 A. I know very little about that. I don't know exactly what it is
18 that you would like me to tell you.
19 Q. Well, simply do you know of instances of any army, including VRS,
20 SVK, JNA, the Croatian Army, the HVO, the BiH Army, that they could
21 actually use that same system, communications systems that it remained
22 from the previous, the former Yugoslavia
23 use it, if they were trained properly?
24 A. I can't give you an answer to that question.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up document
Page 6004
1 P2335.
2 Q. You've testified to this document in the examination-in-chief.
3 Can I ask you this: What is the meaning of these numbers that are added,
4 that are handwritten. We see the 15th, 11th, 21st, 39th, 18th K.
5 A. This means that this same report was submitted to the commanders
6 of the 15th, 11th, 21st, 39th and 18th Corps of the Serbian army of
7 Krajina.
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 3 in the
10 B/C/S version, and 4 in English, the portion referring to the security
11 situation.
12 Q. In the second paragraph it says:
13 "UNPROFOR members and members of other international
14 organisations continue to perform intelligence work against the RSK. In
15 this period, the following activities of these organisations have been
16 registered."
17 And then it goes on. Now the same question that I asked before.
18 At the time when these reports were drafted and some members of your
19 organ, as you said, participated in the drafting, did you consider that
20 sending this information regarding the UNPROFOR was important?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Very well. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about
23 your testimony regarding the shelling of Zagreb in May 1995.
24 You testified in detail in the Martic case regarding this matter.
25 Do you remember?
Page 6005
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you also provided some information in this respect in your
3 statement to the OTP, and I assume that you had occasion to see this
4 statement during the prepping for this appearance in court?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D00-9162, pages 21
7 in B/C/S and 15 in English. Paragraph 70 of your statement to the OTP,
8 your 2005 statement.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said it is 1D00-9162.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. 1D00-9162.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Well, I will read this because I see that it carries on, onto the
14 next page but I'm reading the first sentence in B/C/S:
15 "Based on my information as head of the security organs of the
16 SVK, Martic and Celeketic were the only ones who knew about the location
17 of the Orkan MBRL and who was in charge of" --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Saxon, I'm sorry.
19 MR. SAXON: Very sorry to interrupt. It's just that in the
20 original English version of the statement the sentence that Mr. Lukic
21 just read is quite different if I'm reading the correct sentence. In the
22 English version it says:
23 "Based on my information as head of the security organs of the
24 SVK," and I'm wrong because I'm reading the wrong line.
25 I apologise for the interruption.
Page 6006
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mm-hmm. Perhaps I should read it in
4 English that would be best.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: I'm just very sorry, it's simply so the record is
7 clear. It's just that Mr. Lukic referred to the first sentence and is he
8 referring to the first sentence at paragraph 70.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, sir.
10 MR. SAXON: Okay. Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] To be as precise as possible, I will
12 read the relevant part in English, since the English version is the
13 official version.
14 Q. In that paragraph of your statement you say: [In English]
15 "Based on my information as a head of security organs of the SVK
16 Martic and Celeketic were the only ones to know about the location of the
17 Orkan MBRL and who was in charge of protecting them. Martic and
18 Celeketic were also the only ones who could decide about the use of
19 Orkan ..."
20 [Interpretation] This is what the statement says and you do stand
21 by the statement today, don't you?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Paragraph 73 --
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we pull it up, please. I'm
25 interested in the third sentence. Can we turn to the next page in
Page 6007
1 English.
2 Q. Here you state: [In English]
3 "As I said earlier in my understanding that -- it is my
4 understanding that the only Martic Celeketic were involved in the
5 decision making protest to shell Zagreb
6 [Interpretation] You still stand by that statement today, don't
7 you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I will not seek to have the relevant portions admitted, since we
10 have them in the transcript.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we pull up document P496, please.
12 Q. I suppose you're familiar with the document?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This is the classic combat order issued by the commander; is that
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The date is the 1st of May, 1995 when it was sent to whose
18 command exactly?
19 A. Of the 7th, 21st Corps and Battalion of the military police of
20 the Main
21 Q. And nobody else?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Mr. Raseta, you did not see a single document report or piece of
24 information where Celeketic or Martic informed anyone in the
25 Yugoslav army, in the VJ, about this order.
Page 6008
1 A. No, I haven't.
2 Q. Thank you. I will now turn to the answers you gave in relation
3 to your retirement.
4 In your testimony on Thursday, page 5946, you said that you went
5 back to the VJ upon a prior approval from General Mrksic. Do you recall
6 this?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. At the time, General Mrksic was your superior officer in the
9 Serbian army of Krajina; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You went back to the VJ, or, rather, into the territory of the
12 FRY without his approval based on what we read from the provisions of the
13 Law on Army, in other words, you wilfully left the ranks of the army; is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you joined the Yugoslav army, or rejoined the Yugoslav Army,
17 there was no post available corresponding to your position or rank, and
18 that's why you applied for retirement.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. You submitted your application to the relevant unit that was your
21 home unit before you left the army for the SVK.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. I still have several questions for you on a different subject.
24 You attended the collegium of the Main Staff of the SVK when
25 Celeketic showed you his written resignation, that he intended to submit
Page 6009
1 and he held the position at the time of -- of the commander.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you personally saw the document and the -- and Celeketic
4 explained to you what it was about.
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Do you recall General Celeketic telling you or anyone else
7 earlier on that he would resign if any part of the territory of the RSK
8 came to be occupied or ended up in the hands of the Croatian army?
9 A. Yes, that's what he said at the collegium of the commanders.
10 Q. And following Operation Flash, a certain portion of the RSK was
11 no longer in the hands of the Serbian army of Krajina; in other words, it
12 was occupied, captured, or re-taken, depending on the side viewing the
13 situation.
14 A. That's right.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in 65 ter document
16 6103.
17 Q. I'm not sure whether you're familiar with the document. Have a
18 look at that time, and I'll have a couple of questions.
19 The document is self-explanatory. The date is 18th of May, 1995.
20 I asked you earlier when it was that Commander Mrksic was appointed, but
21 you weren't sure of the date.
22 Did you know that, at the time, the Assembly of the RSK carried a
23 decision to release General Celeketic from the duty of the commander of
24 the SVK?
25 A. This is the first time I see the document. I didn't know
Page 6010
1 anything about it.
2 Q. Tell me, have you heard of Rajko Lezaic and did you know that he
3 was the president of the Assembly at the time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can I have this document admitted, Your Honour. Is it one of the
6 documents from the 65 ter list?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D91.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move into private session
12 for a couple of my questions, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
14 [Private session]
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 6011
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Page 6011 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 6012
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 May you close your cross-examination in open session, please,
20 Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 Your Honour, I have no further questions for the witness. Thank
23 you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 Yes, any re-examination, Mr. Saxon.
Page 6013
1 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. If I may have but a moment to set
2 up the podium.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before Mr. Saxon starts, I have to
5 make two corrections of the transcript.
6 Page 38, line 1, and page 36, line 19, I used the term allied
7 army, army of allies and I think something else was recorded.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 38, line?
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 38, line 1, and page 36, line
10 19.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: My page 38 doesn't refer to any allied thing.
12 MR. SAXON: If I can assist, Your Honour, I have that term on
13 page 39, lines 13 to 14.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. I can see that at line 14. You say in line
15 14 should read allied and not applied.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the other.
18 MR. LUKIC: 36, line 19, federal leadership.
19 [Interpretation] I said allied and not federal.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it a correction that you want to put. Thank
21 you so much.
22 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
23 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel.
Page 6014
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. I would like to ask you some questions --
3 MR. SAXON: If we can --
4 Q. About a document that my colleague also showed you today.
5 MR. SAXON: This would be 65 ter 6063.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's now D89. If you can refer to it by its
7 exhibit number.
8 MR. SAXON: Let me ...
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I'm told only seven pages were tendered.
12 MR. SAXON: That's correct.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I apologise.
14 MR. SAXON: We'll see if, perhaps administratively, at the end of
15 this examination, what would be the best way to deal with this document.
16 If we can turn, please, to Article 21 at this time, which will be
17 on page 10 in the English version and page 9 in the B/C/S version.
18 If we could --
19 Q. If you can take a look at Article 20, Colonel -- excuse me,
20 Article 21.
21 A. Can I see it.
22 Q. Which refers to:
23 "An active duty serviceman who was sent according to service
24 requirements to work in another state organ, organisation of associated
25 labour or other organisation."
Page 6015
1 MR. SAXON: Actually, I would like to move from this article, if
2 I may, please, to Article 30, on page 14 and page 12 of the B/C/S.
3 Q. And we see in the -- I believe my colleague showed this article
4 to you during his cross-examination. And this article talks about
5 sending reports to the following parties concerning data gathered and the
6 results of checks conducted.
7 And the second paragraph refers to:
8 "Other officers of commands, units, institutions, and staffs of
9 the armed forces, concerning other data that is important for the
10 security and combat readiness of these commands, units, institutions and
11 staffs."
12 Was it pursuant to this article that you continued to monitor
13 persons, officers from the VJ, certain officers from the VJ, who had been
14 sent for -- for service in the SVK?
15 A. This is quite a different matter. This has to do with the
16 verification of certain information from the field of security,
17 information sent to the organs competent to take charge of security
18 issues. That's number one.
19 Number two, if the situation dictates that some other senior
20 officers be informed of certain information, then the information will be
21 conveyed to such officers as have the competence to act upon the
22 information.
23 So this is quite separate from the other matter that you put to
24 me about the surveillance conducted in respect of certain individuals who
25 were members of the SVK.
Page 6016
1 Q. Just so the record is clear, then, would this paragraph give you
2 an obligation, for example, while you were serving in the SVK, to provide
3 information, for example, to the Security Administration of the VJ
4 General Staff.
5 A. Yes. If methods and means normally employed the security organ
6 are, indeed, applied.
7 So the answer is yes.
8 Q. Very well.
9 MR. SAXON: If we can turn to page 18 in the English and page 15
10 in the B/C/S version. This is in chapter IV, which is entitled the
11 powers and obligations of officers in security organs in performing their
12 duties. And if you could turn your mind -- actually, I may have erred
13 because I want to look at Article 43 which may be on the next page of the
14 B/C/S version.
15 Q. If could you direct your attention to Article 43 for a moment,
16 Colonel Raseta.
17 A. Yes, I'm following you.
18 Q. While you were serving in the SVK, between 1993 and 1995, did
19 this Article give you the authority to arrest a person and deliver him to
20 a military court or a military institution of the Army of Yugoslavia?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I did discuss the document with the
23 witness, but I did not touch upon this subject. I think that Mr. Saxon
24 has gone beyond the scope of my cross-examination.
25 Had he wanted to examine the witness on these issues, he could
Page 6017
1 have used the document from his list. In none of my questions did I
2 touch upon criminal prosecution in the army.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: Well, that may be, Your Honour, except what Mr. Lukic
5 did touch upon and the whole tenor of his use of this document were the
6 witness's powers and authority pursuant to this document, particularly
7 while he was serving in the SVK, and it seems to me I should be able to
8 explore that with this document on re-examination.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Quite briefly, I think that this is a
11 very broad interpretation of my cross-examination. I touched upon very
12 specific and clear topics arising from the document. This does not in
13 any way touch upon my cross-examination.
14 MR. SAXON: Well, for one thing, he discussed officers who
15 deserted, Your Honour. That was one topic of his cross-examination.
16 And, for example, such a topic might fall within the purview of this
17 article in this document.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be a topic -- would that be conduct
19 that would be justiciable within a military court or would that be a
20 disciplinary inquiry.
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I don't want to testify; it seems that
22 would be a question for the witness.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you put that question to the witness.
24 MR. SAXON:
25 Q. Would conduct, for example, such as desertion in the army of the
Page 6018
1 Republika Srpska Krajina, would such conduct be referred to a military
2 court, or would it be referred to some kind of a disciplinary inquiry, or
3 both?
4 A. I understand. This paragraph, quite unambiguously, places the
5 obligation about the security organs to proceed as regulated in this
6 article. However, the military judiciary in the SVK was non-existent.
7 In other words, we were unable to apply these provisions. Had it been
8 possible we would have dealt with the problems of desertion, incitement
9 to mutiny and other conduct which constitutes a threat to security upon
10 the request of the prosecutors' offices and the military courts of the
11 FRY did not have jurisdiction over the SVK, or, rather, the RSK
12 territory.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Raseta, quite independently of this document
14 here, the question simply is: Would desertion constitute a crime
15 justiciable, in the military courts, or would it be a matter for
16 disciplinary inquiry? Can you just answer that question?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This does not fall within my
18 competence. It falls within the competence of the courts. I think it
19 does fall under criminal prosecution; the desertion, that is.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what you think. That is not fact. The
21 correct answer is it doesn't fall under your competence, so you don't
22 know. Then, of course, you added an opinion.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, I don't know.
Page 6019
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I must rule you out of order -- I must have
2 sustained the objection by Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. SAXON: Can we turn, please, to what is Article 48, which is
4 on page 19 of the English version and page 16 of the B/C/S version.
5 Q. And if you could review, Colonel Celeketic [sic], please,
6 Article 48?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Review, Colonel Celeketic?
8 MR. SAXON: I'm very sorry, I should have said Colonel Raseta.
9 Q. Have you seen Article 48?
10 A. I can see it.
11 Q. Article 48 -- on cross-examination my colleague asked you about
12 the position you held in the VJ, before you went to the SVK and the fact
13 that you were promoted while you were serving in the SVK.
14 This particular article describes the obligations of an
15 authorised officer of the security organ to carry out tasks within the
16 competence of the security organ assigned to him. Regardless of whether
17 or not these tasks are covered by the work that is regularly conducted in
18 their establishment position.
19 My question for you is: While you were serving in the SVK --
20 let's maybe -- step by step. When you first went to the SVK in
21 October 1993, what establishment position did you hold in the
22 40th Personnel Centre?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Saxon please speak into his
24 microphone.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My duties were twofold. My first
Page 6020
1 duty was that of a chief of the information analysis department of the
2 security department of the SVK Main Staff, and the second duty was of the
3 chief of the security Department of the SVK Main Staff.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. And were these duties reflected as your establishment positions
6 in the 40th Personnel Centre?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I see the time. Would this be the
9 appropriate time to take the second break.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] indeed, it is. We will
11 take a break and come back at a quarter to 6.00.
12 Court adjourned.
13 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 5.50 p.m.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Colonel Raseta, during his cross-examination, my colleague,
18 Mr. Lukic, at page 16, lines 12 to 15, asked you whether the Security
19 Administration of the VJ General Staff ever directed or managed your work
20 while you served in the SVK, and your answer was no.
21 I'm wondering whether you could take a look at Article 95 of
22 these rules of service, which would be on page 31 in the English version,
23 page 26 in the B/C/S version, the chapter entitled: Work of security
24 organs in exceptional circumstances in imminent threat of war and in war.
25 I see Article 95 moves over onto the next page. If you could
Page 6021
1 read the first part of it, Colonel, and then perhaps we could go to the
2 next page in the B/C/S version.
3 MR. SAXON: The same with the English version.
4 Q. This article:
5 "Authorises the chief of the Security Administration to prescribe
6 specialist instructions on, inter alia, the work of security organs in
7 gathering information on security checks and on individuals, and on the
8 work of security organs, on their preparations for work in war, an
9 imminent threat of war and other exceptional circumstances."
10 My question for you is: During the time that you served in the
11 SVK, did you receive any - to use the term here - specialist instructions
12 from the chief of the Security Administration of the General Staff of the
13 VJ?
14 A. No, other than the individuals that were under operative
15 processing, in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, who were later
16 transferred to the army of Serbian Krajina.
17 Q. Does that mean you received some instructions about these
18 individuals from the chief of the Security Administration?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And can you recall what those instructions were?
21 A. Well, we were to monitor their activities during their stay in
22 the -- or service in the army of the Serbian Krajina.
23 Q. And, again, just so the record is clear, did these individuals
24 come from the Army of Yugoslavia to the army of Serbian Krajina?
25 A. That's correct.
Page 6022
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would seek to tender the
2 articles that I have shown to the witness, at this time, from this
3 document.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those articles are admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The pages tendered by the Prosecution now will be
9 added to the exhibit that constitutes the pages that were tendered by the
10 Defence, and they will come under one exhibit number.
11 And I think that was Exhibit D89.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. And, Colonel, just to follow up on my last question, these
16 instructions that you received from the chief of the Security
17 Administration to -- to monitor the activities of these individuals
18 during their service in the SVK, were you obliged to follow these
19 instructions?
20 A. I was certainly obliged to follow these instructions, because
21 their activities that they were already engaged in, in the
22 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were assessed to -- the possibility was
23 foreseen that they might continue to engage in the same kind of activity
24 in the army of the Serbian Krajina, which would then threaten the army,
25 and this is the reason why we had to monitor them.
Page 6023
1 Q. And when you say that "the possibility was foreseen that they
2 might continue to engage in the same kind of activity in the army of
3 Serbian Krajina, which would then threaten the army," in that response
4 when you used the phrase, "the army, which would threaten the army,"
5 which army are you referring to?
6 A. The Serbian army of Krajina.
7 Q. Okay. So needed to report to the chief of security of the -- of
8 the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia regarding these individuals
9 who might do something that would threaten the army of the Serbian
10 Republic of Krajina
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this was not the
13 wording that the witness used, and I think this -- there was an error in
14 interpretation, or, rather, the Prosecutor phrased or framed this
15 question in a different manner, and I would request that he use the
16 proper wording.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which is the proper wording?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I wouldn't want to give any of
19 my comments because that may be perceived as leading question. But I
20 think that the Prosecutor should not actually draw his own conclusions as
21 to what the witness had said, but, rather, pose a question. And if he
22 wishes to refer to what the witness actually said and draw conclusions
23 therefrom, then he should point out the exact words of the witness.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, do you have any response to that
Page 6024
1 objection?
2 MR. SAXON: Quite frankly, no -- no, Your Honour. In my mind, it
3 is a proper question. The witness can answer yes or no.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's just look at the question as you had put it.
5 Actually, that question seems to be a repetition of what the
6 witness had just answered to.
7 MR. SAXON: Then I will withdraw it, Your Honour, and I will move
8 on.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But just let me make sure that -- you asked him
10 previously from page 64, line 25 and when you say that "the possibility
11 was foreseen that they might continue to engage in the same kind of
12 activity in the army of Serbian Krajina, which would then threaten the
13 army." In that response, when you used the phrase "the army," "which
14 would threaten the army," which army are you referring to?
15 And he said: "The Serbian army of Krajina."
16 Then you asked the same question again.
17 MR. SAXON: Well, in my mind, Your Honour, it was not the same
18 question because I was simply trying to clarify exactly with a was
19 happening.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. What is the difference?
21 MR. SAXON: I will move on, Your Honour. I -- I cannot enunciate
22 a clear difference, so I will move on.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Move on.
24 MR. SAXON: We can now leave this document.
25 Q. Colonel Raseta, during his cross-examination today - and this is
Page 6025
1 at page 10, lines 1 to 3 - you agreed with my colleague's question that
2 the SVK was totally independent of the VJ.
3 Do you recall that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I'd like perhaps to explore this area with you a little bit.
6 Was the SVK dependant on VJ officers to make up the Main Staff of
7 the SVK?
8 A. I did not understand your question.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is a leading question,
11 Your Honour.
12 MR. SAXON: A leading question, Your Honour, suggests an answer
13 that should be given. This is a question that could be answered yes or
14 no. It is not leading.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled.
16 MR. SAXON:
17 Q. Well, you had testified earlier today that the SVK was completely
18 independent of the VJ, and so I want to explore that.
19 Maybe I can step back for a moment. While you were serving in
20 the SVK Main
21 Main Staff assigned to, vis-a-vis the VJ, if anywhere?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand your question either. What do
23 you mean by "vis-a-vis the VJ"?
24 MR. SAXON: I will rephrase my question.
25 Q. While you were in the SVK Main Staff, did you and your -- were
Page 6026
1 you and your colleagues member of the 40th Personnel Centre of the VJ?
2 A. We were members of the Main Staff of the Serbian army of Krajina.
3 And as for the 40th Personnel Centre, that was the centre via which we
4 were transferred to and later on returned to the Federal Republic
5 Yugoslavia
6 Q. Okay.
7 MR. SAXON: Can we show -- I want to actually --
8 Q. First of all, I will ask you about some names.
9 While you were in the -- serving in the SVK, did you know a man
10 named Stojo Spanovic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon already put this question
13 during his examination-in-chief, and the witness answered it.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
15 MR. SAXON: Well, yes, Your Honour, but in a different context.
16 During --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you mean -- is that a context in which you
18 wouldn't know him? If he did know him in any context at all.
19 MR. SAXON: No, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I was not clear.
20 I simply wanted to explore with the witness the numbers of
21 officers who were sent from the 40th Personnel Centre.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, ask about the number of personnel. Don't
23 ask about the person that he already answered to.
24 MR. SAXON: Well --
25 Q. Do you know how many -- while you were serving in the SVK
Page 6027
1 Main
2 40th Personnel Centre of the VJ?
3 A. How do you mean "attached"? I don't understand. Do you know
4 mean subordinated or ...
5 Q. Were they temporarily assigned to the SVK through the
6 40th Personnel Centre, if you know.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness what is P -- Exhibit P875,
10 please.
11 Q. If you can take a look at this document, Colonel Raseta. You see
12 it's from the 14th of May, 1994, from the Main Staff of the SVK to the
13 Yugoslav army General Staff. And it says:
14 "In order to replenish RSK aviation units, we require the
15 following officers ..."
16 And then there is an long list.
17 Was the SVK dependant on the Army of Yugoslavia to man its
18 aviation units?
19 A. As far as personnel is concerned, I have already explained on
20 several occasions, that they were actually manned -- the units were
21 manned by officers from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, including
22 pilots and everyone else.
23 Q. And were these officers sent under orders of the -- sent to serve
24 in the SVK under orders of the Army of Yugoslavia, if you know?
25 A. This is the first time that I see this list, and I don't know
Page 6028
1 whether this request was actually granted.
2 Q. I'm sorry, Colonel Raseta, it is completely my fault. My
3 question wasn't clear.
4 You had mentioned earlier, a moment ago, that the SVK units were
5 manned by officers from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, so I was
6 referring to those officers that were sent to serve -- well, that served
7 in the SVK. Were those officers ordered or sent to the SVK under orders
8 by the VJ, if you know?
9 A. I don't know that.
10 Q. Okay. You had testified previously, including today, about how
11 after a year -- your first year of service in the SVK, you requested
12 permission to return to the VJ. Do you recall that testimony?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. And eventually that request was denied by General Dimitrijevic,
15 first, and then that was passed -- that message was passed down --
16 MR. SAXON: I withdraw -- I anticipate the objection and I will
17 rephrase my question.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you do anticipate one, rephrase immediately.
19 MR. SAXON: Absolutely.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
21 MR. SAXON: Absolutely.
22 Q. That request was denied; is that right, eventually?
23 A. Yes. But not quite like that. General Dimitrijevic said that he
24 did not have suitable replacement for me, so he did not really deny my
25 request, but once the possibility opened, he would actually look at it.
Page 6029
1 Q. Thank you, and I stand corrected. And that's because --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic, you object to him standing
3 corrected?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no. It's rather the
5 interpretation of this portion of the testimony, page 70, line 24, the
6 witness did not say he would actually look at it. He worded it
7 different, that it would be; he didn't say who. But here, it appears
8 that, as if Dimitrijevic was the one who said that; whereas, that is not
9 what the witness said.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you repeat the question to the witness,
11 please, Mr. Saxon.
12 MR. SAXON:
13 Q. My question simply was -- and all we need is a yes or no answer,
14 the request -- your request to return to the VJ after one year was
15 denied. That's right?
16 A. No.
17 MR. SAXON: Now I'm a little bit confused.
18 Q. Your request -- I thought that when you requested to return to
19 the VJ after one year eventually that request was denied. Am I wrong
20 about that?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ...
22 A. You are not wrong about it, no.
23 MR. SAXON: I just want the record to be clear.
24 Q. And you had specialist skills for which General Dimitrijevic did
25 not have a replacement at that time; is that right?
Page 6030
1 A. Yes, not Vasiljevic; it was Dimitrijevic.
2 Q. I'm sorry, I said Dimitrijevic but perhaps you heard Vasiljevic.
3 And those specialist skills, your specialist skills, were also
4 needed in the SVK; is that right?
5 A. Well, it's not that I was not replaceable or that I was so
6 indispensable but there was not an adequate replacement for me, and the
7 commander said that I should stay until I was replaced. I don't know if
8 I made myself clear.
9 Q. And that replacement was supposed to come from the VJ?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. So was the SVK Main Staff, then, at least with respect to
12 your post, chief of the security department, was it dependant on the VJ
13 to fill that post?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the question calls for
16 speculation.
17 MR. SAXON: Well the witness was serving there at the time. He
18 was -- he was -- he is and was intimately aware and involved of the
19 situation. Perhaps we can ask him if can he answer the question.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to answer the question, sir?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that a question addressed to me?
22 MR. SAXON:
23 Q. Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. That is ...
25 Do you know at all whether the SVK Main Staff depended on the VJ
Page 6031
1 to filled post that you were occupying in the SVK?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. The post should have
3 been occupied by an experienced officer who had performed all the duties
4 I had performed who had adequate schooling. That sort of personnel was
5 not available in the army of the -- of the Republic of the Krajina.
6 MR. SAXON:
7 Q. What about fuel? Was the SVK dependant on the VJ for receiving
8 adequate fuel supplies, if you know?
9 A. I already answered that question in the affirmative. The
10 priority was to look for fuel and lubricants and to seek these from the
11 General Staff of VJ.
12 As far as the command and control was concerned, the SVK
13 Main Staff was independent of the General Staff of the FRY.
14 Q. Okay. Can a modern army operate in war without sufficient fuel?
15 A. Well, of course, it cannot.
16 Q. Where did the SVK get its laws and rules of service from? Did it
17 draft all of them by itself?
18 A. I don't know which laws and rules of service you have in mind.
19 Q. Well, all right. For example, the rules of service that you've
20 seen here today and on Thursday, the rules of service of security organs
21 in the armed forces of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
22 Were those rules of service then used in the SVK?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can accept the question as it
25 stands now. It was the earlier question that was formulated differently
Page 6032
1 which I had a problem with.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did I answer the question?
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. No, I don't think you did -- yes, you should answer the question,
5 please.
6 A. The rules and instructions of the administration -- of the
7 Security Administration of the FRY were used by the security organs of
8 the SVK. We did not have our own instructions in the SVK. All the
9 instructions we used were the instructions of the Security Administration
10 of the General Staff of the army of the FRY.
11 Q. Are you aware whether the RSK Law of Defence adopted provisions
12 of the Law of Defence of the FRY or the SFRY?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that this is too technical a
15 question for the witness. I think Mr. Saxon should first ask the witness
16 whether he is familiar with the laws, whether he knows when the laws were
17 adopted and only then should he proceed to ask the witness to infer any
18 sort of a conclusion. The question as put now I think is too demanding
19 of the witness.
20 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, my colleague discussed the RSK Law
21 of Defence with the witness during his cross-examination, so it would
22 appear to me that the Defence at least believes that the witness is
23 competent to deal with this law. But I can rephrase my question, if
24 Your Honour so desires.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, how do you know what is in the mind of
Page 6033
1 the witness? Or how do you come to the conclusion that the question is
2 too technical for the witness?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I proceeded in the
4 following way. I first showed the witness the laws and then asked him
5 certain matters related to the command and control and to the fundamental
6 principles underlying the army. Those were my questions.
7 Now, Mr. Saxon --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question is how do you know that the question
9 is too technical for the witness? Why can't the witness tell us if the
10 question is too technical for him and say, I can't answer that question
11 because it is too technical.
12 How do you know the mind of the witness?
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I accept your guidance, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may put your question, Mr. Saxon.
15 MR. SAXON:
16 Q. Do you know, Colonel, whether the RSK Law of Defence adopted
17 provisions from the Law of the Armed Forces of the SFRY or the Law of
18 Defence of the SFRY?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The questions I put to the witness
21 had to do with the Law of Governing the Army alone and not one of my
22 questions had to do with the Law on Defence.
23 MR. SAXON: I will rephrase my question then to address the Law
24 of the Army.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do so, Mr. Saxon.
Page 6034
1 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry, I was under the misperception that it was
2 the RSK Law of Defense.
3 Q. Do you know, Colonel, whether the law of the SVK, or the Law of
4 the Army of the RSK adopted provisions from the Law of the Armed Forces
5 of the SFRY or the Law of the Army of Yugoslavia?
6 No, excuse me, I will rephrase my question.
7 Do you know whether the Law of the SVK or the Law of the Army of
8 the RSK adopted provisions from the Law of the Armed Forces of the SFRY?
9 A. I don't know about that.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. SAXON: We can move this exhibit now, please.
12 Q. Were the SVK officers who were assigned to the 40th Personnel
13 Centre dependant on the Army of Yugoslavia for their salaries?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I didn't put a single question about
16 salaries. Can Mr. Saxon please reference the relevant portions.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, Mr. Saxon's argument was and still is
18 that you asked the witness whether the SVK was completely independent of
19 the VJ, and he is trying to show dependance of the SVK on the VJ. He is
20 not talking about salaries per se. He is talking about dependance, okay?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since I don't have the transcript in
22 front of me, if I remember correctly my question was whether the SVK,
23 under its organisation and structure, was a fully independent army. I
24 think that I was very specific in the questions I put.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I also don't have the transcript before me. I do
Page 6035
1 not remember you talking about structure and organisation, but I stand
2 corrected.
3 MR. SAXON: May I proceed then?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: If -- if I'm not sure whether we are able to
5 ascertain -- to find out where -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... page 8,
7 lines 4 through 6, if Mr. Saxon can give us some other reference, if he
8 has one. That was my question I gave you the reference for.
9 MR. SAXON: I have a different reference, Your Honour, and I
10 think the next reference which I was depending on and which I referred to
11 earlier puts a slightly different gloss on the issue.
12 At page 10 beginning at line 3, question was:
13 "The Serbian army of Krajina was a totally independent army, both
14 in its structure and organisation, and then independent from the Army of
15 Yugoslavia
16 Answer was: "Correct."
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 10.
18 MR. SAXON: Page 10, Your Honour, starting at line 3. And it's
19 that last part of the sentence that I am exploring and have I been
20 exploring with the witness.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then Mr. Lukic is right. He was talking about
22 structure and organisation. Whatever structure an organisation mean, I
23 don't know.
24 MR. SAXON: Well, structure an organisation can refer to
25 personnel; it can refer to salaries and benefits; it can refer to laws
Page 6036
1 which govern how an army was structured and organised.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
3 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you will have noticed my
5 earlier questions and the line where they were heading. I was
6 concentrating on the principles underlying an army and that was the
7 question as I formulated it for this witness. I was interested in the
8 fundamental principles of an army.
9 You will remember that the entire line of questioning had to do
10 with precisely those fundamental principles of the army. The question
11 that was referenced here was also very specific. I believe that
12 Mr. Saxon is touching upon topics that go well beyond the scope of my
13 cross-examination. I took your guidance on board, but what is being
14 referred to here was not the subject of my cross-examination.
15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if Mr. Lukic had wanted to limit his
16 question, he could have stopped his question this way: "The Serbian army
17 was Krajina -- the Serbian army of Krajina was a totally independent army
18 both in its structure and organisation." He did not do that. He then
19 continued, "independent from the Army of Yugoslavia."
20 Which is the critical point of that question, Your Honour, which
21 I should be allowed to explore and clarify on redirect.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Saxon, then the objection is
23 overruled.
24 MR. SAXON:
25 Q. Colonel Raseta, going back to my question, which was were the
Page 6037
1 officers that were serving in the SVK who were assigned to the 40th
2 Personnel Centre of the VJ, were they dependant on the Army of Yugoslavia
3 for their salaries?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And, in fact, such officers received extra pay for serving in the
6 SVK?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Were the SVK officers who were assigned to the 40th Personnel
9 Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia dependant on the Army of Yugoslavia for
10 their retirement benefits?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, I'll tell you, I have a little problem
13 with your re-examination. It's re-hashing the examination-in-chief.
14 That's my only problem. We've heard -- all these questions we have heard
15 before, they depended on the VJ for personnel, salaries, for fuel.
16 That's my only problem.
17 MR. SAXON: I will leave this topic now, Your Honour. I will
18 move on.
19 Q. At page 17 of today's transcript, lines 14 to 16, you described
20 the relationship between you and General Dimitrijevic of the Security
21 Administration of the VJ General Staff, as a relationship of cooperation.
22 Do you recall that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But there were at least certain areas where -- certain areas of
25 your work where you actually had a duty to communicate with
Page 6038
1 General Dimitrijevic; is that right?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. SAXON: If I can have the Court's indulgence for a moment
5 please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. SAXON: Okay.
9 Q. And, for example, these areas included communications related to
10 persons from the VJ, who were serving in the SVK, who might be subject to
11 operative processing?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Number one, the witness already
14 answered the question; and, number two, this is leading again.
15 MR. SAXON: I will move on, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON:
18 Q. During cross-examination today, your testimony was that the
19 individuals who were absent without leave from the SVK were subjected to
20 proceedings and a request was sent to the General Staff of the VJ for
21 such individuals to be returned to the SVK.
22 Do you know -- are you aware of instances where this occurred?
23 A. You mean am I aware of instances of individuals wilfully leaving
24 the ranks of the SVK and moving on to the FRY? Do you know -- are you
25 referring to that category of officers?
Page 6039
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. No, I'm referring to that --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that here, at page 25, line
6 18, you can find the witness's answer to that question.
7 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much.
8 Q. You talked briefly during cross-examination about what happened
9 after your first year in the SVK and your request to return to the
10 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
11 Why did you request to return to the VJ after that first year?
12 A. Because that is what the order stated; that's to say, the order
13 seconding me to the SVK for a period of up to a year. Since the one-year
14 period was about to expire, I intended to submit an application for my
15 return to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
16 Q. Okay. During his cross-examination, you and my colleague,
17 Mr. Lukic, discussed the fact that eventually you -- when you were in the
18 SVK, while you were serving in the SVK, you were promoted to a higher
19 post within the SVK than the post that you had left in the VJ.
20 Do you recall that exchange?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. My question, then, is - if you know - after you received this
23 promotion, while you were serving in the SVK to a higher post, was your
24 personnel file in the 40th Personnel Centre amended to reflect that fact?
25 A. Yes.
Page 6040
1 Q. So, to use the terms of some of our documents, in your file in
2 the 40th Personnel Centre, did you receive a higher establishment post?
3 A. I received a higher level duty and a higher post, yes. Of
4 course.
5 Q. And commensurate with that, did you begin to receive a higher
6 salary while you were still serving in the SVK?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. SAXON: May I have the Court's indulgence for one moment,
9 please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do, sir.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness Exhibit P2336.
13 And can we scroll down in the English version, please.
14 Q. You'll recall, I believe you mentioned on cross-examination that
15 you had tried to check, as you put it, why the order to shell the Sisak
16 refinery was not carried out.
17 Do you recall that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And, indeed, it was your belief that the -- that Colonel Gacic
20 had not carried out the order of General Celeketic; right?
21 A. That's right.
22 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness, please, document
23 ID 0639-8938.
24 If we can just take a look at the first page, please, that the
25 head line and underneath the head line.
Page 6041
1 Q. This is a newspaper called "Vjesnik, Croatian Political Daily."
2 Dated Zagreb
3 Are you following me?
4 MR. SAXON: Perhaps we could zoom in on the B/C/S on the date,
5 please. It's very small.
6 Q. Can you see that now?
7 A. It is not very legible.
8 MR. SAXON: Can we zoom in more on the date, please. A bit more.
9 Q. Can you read it now?
10 A. I can read "Zagreb
11 Q. How about if I give you a hard copy of this article. Would that
12 help you perhaps, if it's a better copy?
13 MR. SAXON: Could the usher please assist me, please. This is a
14 hard copy of the same page. Can we show it to the Defence, please.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ma'am, can you show it to the Defence, please.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I have two problems with this
17 document, Your Honours. This document was not on the 65 ter list, as my
18 associates inform me; and, on the other hand, I really can't see -- of
19 course, Mr. Saxon hasn't asked the question yet. But I don't see and I
20 would call him -- call upon him to tell us which portion of my
21 cross-examination he is linking up to. I don't see how this document is
22 in any way linked to my cross-examination.
23 And this is the first time that I see this document.
24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
Page 6042
1 MR. SAXON: Let me take the second point first. This -- during
2 cross-examination, my colleague showed the witness both a paragraph from
3 his statement, which -- and asked him questions related to the fact
4 whether this particular order to shell Sisak was carried out; and he also
5 showed the witness an exhibit which we have just seen, 2336, and the
6 witness talked about part of the purpose of his work in getting this
7 order was to find out why the order to shell Sisak -- shell the Sisak
8 refinery was not carried out.
9 So, if I can, this document deals with the events at Sisak,
10 Your Honour, which -- and I would like to explore that with the witness.
11 It's true this was not op our 65 ter list, but I could not anticipate the
12 line of cross-examination, yeah, from my colleague.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Please speak into the microphone. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a problem with this because I
16 still think that my portion -- I still have a problem with this position
17 of Mr. Saxon's because it is my claim that the topic that I touched upon
18 in cross-examination, referring to Sisak and not the shelling of Sisak
19 itself, and Mr. Saxon had opportunity in his examination-in-chief to ask
20 questions about this.
21 Now, if you recall my questions had to do with the chain of
22 command and who received what information. My cross-examination, with
23 regard to his report to General Mrksic of the 26th of May had exclusively
24 to do with whom the report was sent to and whether it had been sent to
25 someone from the Army of Yugoslavia. And if Mr. Saxon wants to touch
Page 6043
1 upon those topics by using this document that can then arise from my
2 cross-examination, but, otherwise, no.
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I want to clarify a topic that the
4 witness raised in response to questions posed by counsel during his
5 cross-examination, and I can't think of a more basic purpose of redirect
6 examination.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the trouble is we don't know what topic you
8 want to clarify, number one. Number two, I'm sitting here and wondering
9 if that topic arose out of a discussion of an order within an army how
10 that gets clarified by a newspaper. This is my -- I'm just wondering --
11 I mean, what does the newspaper got to do with what is happening inside
12 the army?
13 MR. SAXON: The newspaper has to do with whether a particular
14 event occurred or not, Your Honour, which is directly related to --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But your colleague says he never concerned himself
16 with whether or not an event occurred. All he concerned himself with was
17 to whom that report was made.
18 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. But the witness concerned himself
19 with that point, whether the event occurred or not. That is my point.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, there you are, Mr. Lukic. He says the
21 witness did refer to an event that occurred.
22 MR. SAXON: Or did not occur.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Or did not occur.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Bear with me a moment, Your Honours.
25 The only thing that I can find, Your Honour, about this document
Page 6044
1 was on page 42, line 10, where the witness discusses and says that he
2 doesn't know the date of -- of this event. And I think that Mr. Saxon is
3 now here seeking to obtain answers to the questions that he failed to
4 pose during his examination-in-chief. This is not something that was
5 included in any of the answers of the witness that now need to be
6 clarified.
7 Re-examination -- the purpose of re-examination is to clarify
8 issues that arise from cross-examination and the questions that the
9 Prosecutor asked had nothing to do with the cross-examination, and the
10 Prosecutor is now seeking to re-examine this witness in
11 examination-in-chief.
12 MR. SAXON: Well, actually, Your Honour, I misspoke a moment ago
13 because I said that this topic arose from a response from the witness.
14 That was incorrect. The topic arose from a question of my colleague.
15 If you take a look at page 42, lines 14 to 17.
16 "Q. And my understanding as to the contents of this document is
17 that you, that it is to be checked why the order that was issued by
18 General Celeketic, the order to shell the Sisak refinery, why it was not
19 carried out; is that right?
20 "A. Yes."
21 I want to explore that, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, I understand that. And as I say, are you
23 not able to explore that using that order or using his knowledge? Are we
24 now going to -- I'm not quite sure how this newspaper comes into it.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the next page of this newspaper
Page 6045
1 addresses the matter that was raised in this question, and that is what I
2 want to explore with the witness.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And why is that matter not raised in the documents
4 of the army? Why do we now go out of the documents of the army to find
5 out what happened in the army from a newspaper?
6 Any way we don't know the question. Just go ahead and everybody
7 will be listening to what you are going to be asking.
8 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
9 Can the usher please show the witness the hard copy of the
10 document to see if he can read the date, please.
11 Q. Can you read the date now?
12 A. The 2nd of May, 1995.
13 Q. All right.
14 A. [No interpretation]
15 MR. SAXON: Can we turn to the next page, please, in both
16 languages.
17 And it's very difficult to read. Can -- there is an paragraph in
18 the third column. Can we focus or zoom in on the third column, please.
19 Q. Are you able to read -- I cannot read that first word. It looks
20 like "nirim."
21 Are you able to read that paragraph or where that bullet point is
22 there, Colonel?
23 A. I'm unable to. It's really illegible.
24 Q. Okay. Are you --
25 MR. SAXON: Can we zoom in any more on that bullet point on that
Page 6046
1 column?
2 Q. Do you see the word "Sisak" there?
3 A. "The town of Sisak
4 Q. Are you able to read about what it says about the town of Sisak
5 A. It is really illegible.
6 Q. How about now?
7 A. "The town of Sisak
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: "Or was."
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the rest is completely
10 illegible.
11 MR. SAXON:
12 Q. Very well. Thank you.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, and I see the time. I have no further
14 questions.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I have one or two questions for
19 the witness. I hope it won't be too long.
20 I too -- make it short. If I understood you correctly, when you
21 were asked to go to the SVK, you didn't do it on a voluntary basis; it
22 was not your idea to go.
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Were you forced to go or did you
25 just obey your orders?
Page 6047
1 A. I simply obeyed the order that I was issued.
2 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. I have another
3 question for you.
4 Do you know what is the percentage of officer of the Serb army
5 that went to the -- to the SVK. So the VJ officer what is the percentage
6 of VJ officers who is went to the SVK?
7 A. I do not have any knowledge of that percentage.
8 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] What I would like to know is not
9 the percentage of the officers of the VJ who went to the SVK, but I would
10 like to know what is the percentage of the VJ officers serving in the
11 SVK, with respect to the amount of officers in general. In other words,
12 amongst the SVK officers there were 50 percent of officers compared to
13 the VJ, 60 percent, more or less?
14 A. Well, it's a bit difficult to give you an answer to that. But
15 mainly what I can say is that most key positions were occupied by
16 officers from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and I mean command
17 posts.
18 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. I have another
19 question for you, and I hope that we can be brief.
20 You said that there was a good cooperation between your services
21 within the RSK and the VJ, right, which explains the reports. This is
22 why you were sending your reports to the VJ. Was it also the same the
23 other way around? Would you receive regularly VJ reports?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So it was not really -- it did not
Page 6048
1 really go both ways. It was not really good cooperation.
2 A. If you mean orders, I did not receive such documents. But if you
3 mean exchange of information, I did receive that. So I did not receive
4 orders, but from time to time, we exchanged information.
5 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] No. But what I wanted to know is,
6 did you receive or would you receive reports from the VJ on the military
7 situation, for instance, in the former Yugoslavia?
8 A. No, I did not.
9 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You were sending reports, and did
10 you also get reports from the Serb Republic
11 A. I've already answered that question. Very seldom; almost not at
12 all.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well. That's all. Thank you very much. I
14 have no further questions for you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you going to have any questions arising,
17 Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you, Mr. Lukic?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one.
21 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Raseta, the Honourable Judge Picard asked
23 you about exchange of information. When you contacted Mr. Dimitrijevic
24 did you receive from him some information as to what the positions of the
25 political leadership of Yugoslavia
Page 6049
1 their positions and their opinions were in connection with the situation
2 in Serbian Krajina?
3 A. Well, maybe there were some mention of them but not officially.
4 Maybe we did exchange information just unofficially, but -- but through
5 reports, no.
6 Q. Well, I mean in your being counterparts and when you had direct
7 communications, did he sometimes relay information that was relevant to
8 you of intelligence interests?
9 A. Well, yes, sometimes that would happen, but it was not -- they
10 were not orders. They were really exchanges of operative information in
11 the sense of exchange of information.
12 Q. In the sense of cooperation?
13 A. Yes, cooperation.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just apologise to everybody for having gone
18 beyond the time. Just trying to get done with the witness.
19 Thank you, sir. That brings us to the end of your testimony.
20 You are now excused. You may stand down and please travel well back
21 home, and thank you so much for coming to testify.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Due to the lateness of the hour, the Chamber
25 stands adjourn until tomorrow, 2.00 in the afternoon, in Courtroom I --
Page 6050
1 I'm told Courtroom II, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.
2 Court adjourned.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of May,
5 2009, at 2.15 p.m.
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