Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5958

 1                           Monday, 11 May 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon Your Honours to everybody in and

10     around the courtroom.  This is case number IT -- 04-81-T, the Prosecutor

11     versus Momcilo Perisic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  May we have the appearances

13     for today, starting with the Prosecution.

14             MR. SAXON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon, Mr. Harmon,

15     and Ms. Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  And for the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

18     afternoon to everybody in and around the courtroom.  Today appearing on

19     behalf of Mr. Perisic, Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec, Daniela Tasic,

20     Gregor Guy-Smith, and Mr. Lukic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22             Good afternoon, sir.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to warn you that you are still bound by the

25     declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony, to tell the

Page 5959

 1     truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  RADE RASETA [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered though interpreter]

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

 9        Q.   Mr. Raseta, good afternoon.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   I will now remind both you and myself to make a pause after my

12     questions and I will, after your answers, so that we do not overlap in

13     our questions and answers, okay?

14        A.   Yes, I understand.

15        Q.   On Thursday, on the 7th, we wrapped up with the analysis of some

16     parts of the rules of service in the security organs of the armed forces

17     of the SFRY, and I would like to just take a look at two other articles

18     that have to do with what you testified to during the

19     examination-in-chief.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 6063,

21     page, in B/C/S, 12, and of the English version, page 14, and I'm

22     interested in Article 31.

23        Q.   I will read out slowly this Article and I will stress certain

24     portions of it and ask you to comment on them.

25             Article 31 reads:

Page 5960

 1             "When there is information or reasonable grounds to suspect that

 2     a member of the armed forces or a member of an organisation for NVO is

 3     involved in intelligence-related or other hostile activity, or that such

 4     much activity can be justifiably expected, and if the security organ

 5     believes that, for the purposes of shedding light on this activity, one

 6     of the levels of operative processing should be introduced for this

 7     person and that other methods and means that security organs apply in

 8     carrying out tasks within their competent should be applied, or that

 9     other measures, in accordance with the provisions of these rule, should

10     be taken through a superior security organ, they request permission to

11     take these measures from the officer under item 17 of these rules."

12             Now, does this Article deal with the operative work and operative

13     measures that the Honourable Judge Moloto mentioned, using a simpler,

14     term, spying - and you used the word processing - so is this Article

15     related to measures that are taken such a member of a unit, if this is an

16     threat that he could pose to the armed forces?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And then the request would be forwarded to an officer mentioned

19     in Article 17, and on Thursday, when we analysed this Article, we saw

20     that this was an individual who was authorised by the then secretariat

21     and we concluded that this person would be either the chief of the

22     Security Administration of the General Staff, or of the army commanders.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In reply to Mr. Saxon's question, you talked about the main tasks

25     of the security organs.  Is one of the tasks of this organ to also

Page 5961

 1     monitor of possible threats to a unit from within the unit itself or

 2     activities of, let's call the subversive elements within the unit,

 3     itself.

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   And these are the measures that are mentioned in this Article;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   While you were the security organ in the JNA and the VJ, if you

 9     obtained information that certain operative measures should be taken

10     against any individuals, or member of a unit, you would then request

11     authority or approval from your superior officers, and once you received

12     that approval, you would take action; correct?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   Now let's see what the situation was with the methods and means

15     applied when you were the security organ in the Serbian army of Krajina.

16             When these members of the army came through the 40th Centre to

17     the Serbian army of Krajina, I believe that for a certain number of them,

18     you received information that they were already under certain measures,

19     surveillance measures in the army -- from the former Army of Yugoslavia;

20     correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   You did not get approval from any institution or individual of

23     the VJ at that time to monitor that person, but you actually did that,

24     pursuant to this rule; correct?

25        A.   That is correct.

Page 5962

 1        Q.   And then, based on this rule that you applied as a security organ

 2     in the Serbian army of Krajina, you then proceeded to do the operative

 3     processing, and then you would inform thereof the Security

 4     Administration; correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   And you did that, because, as you explained, you used and applied

 7     the means and methods provided for in this Article; correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   Now a general question, again, related to this area to this

10     field.

11             Are aware when you worked in the Yugoslav army as the security

12     organ if an officer was sent to a mission abroad and was -- and that

13     person who under these certain measures, surveillance measures, would

14     that person still be under surveillance while abroad?

15        A.   I don't have any specific information about any such instances,

16     but I think such a person would not be appointed to a mission abroad.

17        Q.   All right.  Let's not speculate.  But if you receive information

18     that a certain individual is already -- an individual who is already

19     there if you receive information that such an individual --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. --

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   -- should be submitted or subjected to such operative measures --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

24             MR. SAXON:  I think this question calls for speculation, Your

25     Honour.

Page 5963

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   All right.  Please do not speculate just tell me, if you know in

 3     your experience of any such cases, if not, I withdraw my question.

 4        A.   I do not know of any such cases.

 5        Q.   I withdraw my question, Your Honour.

 6             And I will -- I have another question regarding another Article

 7     from this document.  That's Article 57, subparagraph (2).

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This should be on page -- all right.

 9     We have it on the screens now.  Thank you.

10        Q.   This is a chapter, entire chapter that deals with the Security

11     Administration and all I would like to take a look at is Article 57,

12     paragraph 2, which reads:

13             "The Security Administration provides specialist management for

14     security organs and JNA commands, units, and institutions according to

15     the provisions of these rules and organises and directs their work of

16     importance for security."

17             Is that right?  Now, while you were in the security organ in the

18     Serbian army of Krajina did the Security Administration of the Yugoslav

19     army ever direct or manage your work?

20        A.   No, never.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I propose -- in view of

22     this being a very long document, and I am aware of your guidelines, but I

23     propose that we tender into evidence just the paragraph that I showed

24     this witness on Thursday, and the ones that I showed the witness today.

25     I don't know what the Prosecutor's position is but this document was on

Page 5964

 1     our 65 ter list.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, the Prosecution has a number of

 4     questions to ask about this document.  Perhaps it might be best to wait

 5     after we see redirect examination, and then we may seek to tender the

 6     entire document.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, I would

 8     propose even now that we tender it now in its entirety, but then let's

 9     wait for completion of the redirect and then we can see whether we should

10     tender the entire document or just the articles and their relevant

11     portions.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, how many pages is the entire document.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was just coming to that.  This

14     document in B/C/S, is 52 pages long, or, rather, 96 rules or articles.

15     Personally I believe and let me say at the outset, Your Honour, I believe

16     that both Mr. Saxon and I will agree that we could tender certain

17     chapters that are relevant and that are of interest for this trial and

18     for the Trial Chamber; and in that sense, I think maybe we can reach a

19     joint position.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will admitted the pages that you have referred

21     to now, if Mr. Saxon has to add further pages we'll add those pages at

22     that time.

23             So the pages that are given to [indiscernible] are admitted into

24     evidence, may it please be given an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, those pages will be Exhibit D89.

Page 5965

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if the interpreters have

 3     any problems with my microphone.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  No, the interpreters do not have a problem with

 5     your -- with Defence counsel's microphone.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They have no problem.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I whether try to keep -- to switch

 8     off my mic after my question.

 9        Q.   Mr. Raseta, I have a few more questions about your relationship

10     with the Security Administration while you were in the Serbian army of

11     Krajina.  But that, I would like to clarify a few matters that have to do

12     generally with the status of Serbian officers in the Serbian Republic of

13     Krajina.

14             Would you agree with me that the Serbian army of Krajina was a

15     unified army with all the elements in a structure that are typical of an

16     independent army?

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   It was established and it functioned on the basis of a special

19     law on the army of the Serbian Republic of Krajina?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you're probably aware that this law was passed, based on the

22     constitution of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Members of the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina had their

25     task to defend the territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, which

Page 5966

 1     was clearly defined.

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   That army had a clear chain of command which was defined in the

 4     law; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   That chain of command was based on the basic principles, on which

 7     any army functions:  The subordination, unity of command, and joint --

 8     and singleness of command.  Do you agree with what I'm saying?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And any violation of this principle of subordination and unified

11     command would actually affect the chain of command in any army, and that

12     would also apply to the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You've provided some testimony in the Martic case on the chain of

15     command, in the SVK, if you recall, when you answered questions about the

16     relationship between Martic and Celeketic, especially in relation to the

17     actual role that Martic had under the constitution.

18             You said then and this is page 3914 of the transcript in the

19     Martic case, that Martic was a de facto and de jure supreme commander of

20     the SVK.

21             Do you recall saying that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   There was also a Supreme Defence Council of the RSK as the

24     supreme organ for the command and control of the SVK; correct?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 5967

 1        Q.   And it comprised the president of the republic, Martic, at a

 2     certain time, then the commander of the SVK, the minister of Defence and

 3     the prime minister; correct?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   And only Martic, as president of the republic, could issue orders

 6     to Celeketic, his highest army commander; correct?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   The Main Staff of the SVK was in charge of the operational work

 9     but the president of the republic approved and issued decisions on the

10     use of the armed forces.

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   The Serbian army of Krajina was a totally independent army, both

13     in its structure an organisation, independent from the Army of

14     Yugoslavia; correct?

15        A.   Correct.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

17             MR. SAXON:  I'm just wondering.  Perhaps some foundation could be

18     laid.  What is the basis of the witness's knowledge for such a question.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm quite sure.  Is that an objection.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

21             MR. SAXON:  [Microphone not activated] ... to give an opinion,

22     Your Honour, and I'm simply not sure what the basis for his ability to

23     give that opinion is.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do we determine that this is an opinion that

25     he is giving?

Page 5968

 1             Is he giving -- are you giving an opinion, sir, or are you giving

 2     an answer from your knowledge?  I don't know.  Let me defer to you

 3     Mr. Lukic.  There's an objection.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I can rephrase my question.

 5     But this line of questioning actually arises from the questions that were

 6     put to this same witness in the Martic case and also the questions that

 7     the Prosecutor put to the -- the witness in his examination-in-chief.

 8     And I can also give you references of those.  But I can also rephrase the

 9     question, as Mr. Saxon --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you want to rephrase the question, do so by all

11     means.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Raseta, you performed significant and responsible duties in

14     the SVK and you were the deputy commander of security and member of the

15     Main Staff; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   All the questions that I have put to you, are they based on your

18     opinion or your experience in view of the positions that you held?

19        A.   These were facts.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   When you testified on Thursday, on page 5881 [as interpreted],

23     line 19 of the transcript, you were -- you discussed -- or you talked

24     about your transfer from the Yugoslav army to the SVK, and you said then

25     that you were assigned for temporary duty in the SVK and that you were

Page 5969

 1     released of your duty in the Army of Yugoslavia and that your deputies

 2     were appointed to your post.

 3             Have I understood that correctly?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And on that -- at that moment practically or factually your

 6     duty -- your role in the chain of command in the Yugoslav army ended;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Through the 40th Personnel Centre, certain status-related issues

10     and entitlements of yours were resolved, which you had previously enjoyed

11     in the VJ, and this is something that you've already testified about; is

12     that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When you crossed over to the chain of command of the Serbian army

15     of Krajina, the Chief of Staff Loncar was your superior -- or no.

16     Initially, you held the position of assistant chief of security for

17     operational -- or, rather, let me leave it to you to explain what it was

18     you were.

19        A.   I was the head of the information an analysis section, and I was

20     subordinated to the chief of security of the Main Staff.

21        Q.   Both in terms of the command line and the security line.

22        A.   Right.

23        Q.   Let us clear this up.

24             Where a certain officer, as a security organ, was a member of his

25     own security structure, that person was subordinated to the superior

Page 5970

 1     along the security chain of command; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Was it Smiljanovic at the time.

 4        A.   Initially it was Vuk Dmitrovic and then it was Dusan Smiljanovic

 5     afterwards.

 6        Q.   When you were pointed assistant commander for security of the

 7     Serbian army of Krajina or let's just put it simply, security organ of

 8     the SVK.  In the chain of command the only person who was superior to you

 9     was General Celeketic, was it not?

10        A.   That's right.

11        Q.   Under the specialist chain of command, you were the

12     highest-ranking officer of that particular chain; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Let us briefly look at a portion of the statement you gave to the

15     OTP, 1D00-9162.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have that on our screen,

17     please.  Paragraph 82, which is at page 26 of the B/C/S version and page

18     18 of the English version.  I'm interested in only one issue -- or,

19     rather, one short portion of the statement.

20             Wait for the English translation.

21        Q.   Here you referred to a report, and I'm interested in the bottom

22     part of the paragraph, which starts with the following words:

23             "It was inconceivable."

24             The statement reads:  "It was inconceivable that Celeketic issued

25     such an order without the prior approval of Milan Martic.  I sent my

Page 5971

 1     report to Celeketic and my counterpart in the VJ, Dimitrijevic, but I'm

 2     not aware of any reaction from their side."

 3             Do you still maintain the extent of what you said and that was

 4     that Aleksandar Dimitrijevic as chief of security in the VJ was your

 5     counterpart, you being in the SVK.

 6        A.   I think that this must have been an error in the interpretation

 7     or I must have been misunderstood.  I did send a report, but I could not

 8     describe the relationship in terms of him being a counterpart.  He was a

 9     commander of the corps.  Or maybe I misunderstood the question.

10        Q.   I asked you a moment ago about the fact that the SVK was an

11     independent army, quite a separate entity from the VJ.  You held the

12     highest security position in the SVK.  Aleksandar Dimitrijevic, at the

13     time, held the highest position in the security organ of the VJ.  There

14     was a relationship of cooperation and that -- between the two of you and

15     that's how I perceived you described your relationship by referring to

16     him as a counterpart of yours.  In other words, there was not a

17     superior/subordinate relationship, in terms of -- of where the two of you

18     stood.

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Thank you.  We don't need the document anymore.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we remove the document.  At page 13,

22     line 19 to 20, Witness, you said -- talking about Mr. Dimitrijevic, that

23     he was a commander of the corps.  Were you being -- did you -- were you

24     misinterpreted here or do you still say he was a commander of the corps,

25     now that you have clarified that he was head of security, not commander

Page 5972

 1     of the corps?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This had to do with a report that

 3     was send to General Dimitrijevic, and the report had to do with

 4     Colonel Gacic, who was a corps commander.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry, sorry.  I'm talking about how you

 6     have been interpreted in the transcript today.  I don't know whether you

 7     can see and whether you do understand the English here.  At page 13 of

 8     the transcript, in front of you, at line 20, you say "he was a commander

 9     of the corps."

10             You have just agreed now with Mr. Lukic that in fact he was your

11     counterpart, being head of the security in the VJ.  I'm just saying,

12     which is which between those two?  Were you being -- were you

13     misinterpreted or -- or did you make a mistake when you said he was a

14     commander of the corps?  That's all I want to ...

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my report had to do

16     with Colonel Gacic, commander of the 39th Corps.  The report had to do

17     with husband activity.  And it was about him that I reported to

18     General Dimitrijevic.  I reported to him about the conduct of the

19     commander of the 39th Corps, Colonel Gacic.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hear your answer, sir, but you're not answering

21     my question.

22             What I want to know is, was Mr. Dimitrijevic, was he your

23     counterpart at this time; or was he commander of the corps of the VJ?

24     Because you have given these two answers today.  I just want to know

25     which is correct and which is not correct.

Page 5973

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Dimitrijevic was, at the

 2     time, chief of the Security Administration of the General Staff of the

 3     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He was commander of the corps.  Thank you so much.

 5             You may proceed.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can see an error in the

 8     interpretation of what you asked, Your Honour.  I understood you to say

 9     that he was not a commander of the corps.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, that's what I said, and, yeah, it is

11     misprinted here.  It says it quotes me as saying he was a commander of

12     the corps, but he was not.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Let me ask you something about the reports you sent, when you

15     were in the JNA, VJ, and at a later date, in the SVK.

16             When you were the security organ of the 3rd Army of the VJ, and

17     in general, in the VJ, how often did you send reports to your superior

18     within the security chain of command?

19        A.   Almost on a daily basis.

20        Q.   In the SVK, you were from November 1993 up until August of 1995,

21     for almost two years, and it was my understanding that you sent two types

22     of reports to the Security Administration; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I'm getting lost because of the

25     question you put.

Page 5974

 1             You're saying at line 3, page 16:

 2             "When you were the security organ of the 3rd Army of the VJ, and

 3     in general in the VJ," -- you were talking when he was in the army of the

 4     VJ.  My apologies.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Just a second, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] A group of these reports were reports about the

 7     use of methods and means of operative processing, employed vis-a-vis the

 8     officers that you monitored; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The second group of these reports were pieces of information

11     about certain events that you deemed necessary to inform

12     General Dimitrijevic of, and there were five or six such reports spanning

13     the entire period that you referred to; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In relation to the first group of reports, you said that there

16     were relatively few individuals who were subjects of operative

17     processing; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   At page 5922 of the transcript, line 20, and at pages 5923, 5924

20     and 5, you testified that Dimitrijevic did not seek reports from you

21     relating to the security situation, rather, you sent these reports based

22     on your personal assessment; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Likewise, in relation to reports on operative processing, you

25     sent those reports gratuitously and they were not solicited from him; is

Page 5975

 1     that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can I then conclude that I sent these reports by way of a

 4     relationship of cooperation between two friendly armies.

 5        A.   Yes.  That would be the closest to explaining it.

 6        Q.   Let me ask you something about your transfer to the SVK.

 7             In your testimony on Thursday, you described an episode which

 8     preceded your departure for the SVK, and which had to do with your

 9     superior officer, Kuzmanovic, and about the fact that he himself being --

10     hailing from the area of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, he should have

11     served as an example by going there first?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Am I right in understanding that you didn't mind the fact that

14     did he not particularly go, rather, the fact that he seemed to be so pro

15     activity about the entire issue without himself joining the other army.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you remember that under the law of the Army of Yugoslavia any

18     secondment of a soldier to another army had to be executed with the

19     individual involved being entitled to appeal the decision; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You did not appeal the decision, pursuant to which you were sent

22     to the SVK, did you?

23        A.   No, I did not.

24        Q.   Let us look at another document you were shown in your direct

25     examination and which has to do with this topic.

Page 5976

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P1865, can we please have it on our

 2     screens.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we have that on the screen, what do you

 4     want to do with 1D00-9162.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will revert to my old practice,

 6     where I will only read for the transcript a portion of a witness

 7     statement without asking for it to be tendered.  This is a part of the

 8     statement that a witness gave to the OTP.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   The document you've already testified to will now appear on our

12     screens.

13             You've already had an opportunity to see the document and to

14     testify about it.  This document dated 7th October 1994, which is roughly

15     a year following your departure for the SVK; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   I'm reading the preamble now:

18             "Pursuant to the order of the VJ chief of the General Staff,

19     strictly confidential number 3480 I, dated 4 October 1994, and after the

20     interviews held with professional officers and non-commissioned officers

21     with the VJ chief of the General Staff regarding transfer an appointment

22     to the 40th Personnel Centre ..."

23             The text follows from there.

24             Are you aware of such interviews having been held, although, at

25     the time you were, of course, in the SVK, that the officers that were

Page 5977

 1     supposed to join the SVK spoke with officers and the chief of the VJ

 2     General Staff about that transfer?

 3        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

 4        Q.   Let us look at the text under item 8.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down, please.

 6        Q.   The text under 8 reads, and this part of the text refers to the

 7     eight individuals mentioned above:

 8             "For the above mentioned persons (I stress out)" -- "so for the

 9     above mentioned persons again (I stress again) take written statements

10     and submit them by courier to the 3rd Army command at the latest on the

11     12th of October 1994."

12             Did you know that certain officers when asked to join the SVK,

13     had to give written statement, signing them stating that it was their

14     wish to go or not to go and join the SVK?

15        A.   No, I was not aware.

16        Q.   And just one last comment and let's see if you're aware of that?

17             Under 21, under this number, it says Roman II mention is made

18     that action should be taken for cancellation of service for these two

19     individuals under number 1 and 2, termination of their professional

20     military service.  It says below that:

21             "On the meeting held with the chief of the general staff of the

22     VJ, the above mentioned persons stated that they would like to terminate

23     their professional military service with their right for retirement.  The

24     above mentioned persons have to be called for an official interview

25     immediately and their request for termination of professional military

Page 5978

 1     service should be forwarded to ..." and it says to whom.

 2             Are you aware of the fact that some officers because they did not

 3     wish to join the SVK or for some other personal reasons submitted their

 4     own requests for release from service.  Are you aware of that?

 5        A.   No, I'm not.

 6        Q.   You mentioned the case of a colleague Svilar, who refused for

 7     personal reasons or family reasons to be transferred to the SVK, and he

 8     was transferred to a different post.  Did he retire soon thereafter, do

 9     you know or did he remain in position?

10        A.   He was in that new position for a very brief time, and in view of

11     the fact that he had already met one of the requirements for early

12     retirement he decided to retire and return to Macedonia.

13        Q.   And in fact he submitted, on his own, a request to be retired;

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   When he decided not to go to the SVK, he was not proclaimed to be

17     a deserter and he remained within the VJ and then submitted his request

18     for retirement; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In your group, from the 3rd Army, if I remember what you said,

21     you mentioned that some 20 officers were transferred; correct?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  That some 20

23     officers left.

24        A.   That's correct.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5979

 1        Q.   When you arrived there in the SVK at the time there were already

 2     quite a number of officers who had stayed behind who were in the JNA

 3     earlier; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   Do you know maybe -- although I think you didn't know the answer

 6     to that question.  Do you know overall how many officers and

 7     non-commissioned officers were there in the SVK?

 8        A.   I cannot provide that information.

 9        Q.   You also know that the Yugoslav army was established after the

10     promulgation of the new constitution of the Federal Republic of

11     Yugoslavia, in the spring of 1992.

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Under that constitution and the Law on The army, it protected --

14     this army protected a different territory, not the same territory that

15     was protected -- had been protected by the JNA.

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   This was a new army, which had a different task, a different

18     territory to protect, as it were?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Just one more clarification I'd like to see if you were aware of

21     it.

22             Mr. Saxon asked you about the ethnic composition of the members

23     of the SVK and their ethnic background and you said Mr. Celeketic was

24     from Vojvodina.  Do you recall saying that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5980

 1        Q.   Do you know that his family actually hails from Lika?

 2        A.   Yes, I'm very well aware of that.  His father, Petar, was from

 3     Lika.

 4        Q.   And Lika was, at the time, in the Republic of Serbian Krajina;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And a brief question regarding your Thursday testimony, when you

 8     talked about the visits of Mr. Mrksic and General Velickovic.  That's on

 9     page 5907 of the transcript and when Velickovic addressed you and said

10     this was all the same sky, meaning the sky over Yugoslavia and the sky

11     over the Republic of Serbian Krajina; correct?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Tell us, please, during Operation Flash and Operation Storm,

14     because this was the same sky, did you receive any assistance from the

15     Army of Yugoslavia?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   All right.  We'll move on to a different topic now and I will ask

18     questions about certain disciplinary measures that were taken and

19     disciplinary action.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

21             Could we now please pull up on the screens the rule on the

22     Serbian army of Krajina.  The last session, Your Honour, we only tendered

23     one article, and now I would like to take a look at another one.  That's

24     65 ter 06367 and I would like Article 161.  Unfortunately, it hasn't been

25     translated into English but as this is only one Article, I will read it

Page 5981

 1     out here.

 2        Q.   Mr. Raseta, as you can see this is part of the Law on Army of the

 3     Serbian Krajina which was published in the Official Gazette of the

 4     Republic of Serbian Krajina and I would just like to take at -- a look at

 5     Chapter 13 where disciplinary responsibility and action is discussed and

 6     Article 161 reads and you tell me if I have read this correctly.

 7              "As a breach of military discipline, any act of a military

 8     person" -- "any act of a military person will be considered a breach of

 9     military discipline in keeping with the rules of service and other" --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the Defence counsel please make sure that

11     the proper article is on the screen for the interpreter's sake.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, there's a request from the interpreters

13     that you make sure that the proper article is on the screen.  I see

14     Article 161 on my screen.  I don't know whether the interpreters do or

15     not see it.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters do see it now.  Thank you,

17     Your Honour.  But it was being scrolled while the text was being read

18     out.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Can we not scroll it down while it is it

20     being read.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If necessary, yes, I probably just

22     read out first the entire title of this chapter, but for the

23     interpreter's benefit I will now read just this article, Article 161.

24     And we haven't had this translated, unfortunately.

25              "Any military person who takes action which is contrary to the

Page 5982

 1     duties of military service as provided for in the Law, shall be

 2     considered to be in breach of military discipline," so any actions that

 3     in contravention of the law, the rules of service and other provisions,

 4     orders and other enactments of superior officers which have to do with

 5     the service and especially."

 6             And then a whole number of different items mentioned, but I will

 7     only read number 2:

 8              "Absence without leave from a unit or institution or from

 9     service."

10             I assume that you were aware of this regulation, Mr. Raseta;

11     correct?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Those individuals who left the Army of the Serbian Krajina

14     without leave and returned to the units of the Yugoslav army were not

15     subject to disciplinary procedure in the Army of Yugoslavia; is that

16     right?

17        A.   That's right.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

19             MR. SAXON:  It hasn't been established that the witness is aware

20     of any such individuals, Your Honour, that I'm aware of.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right.  Let's be more precise.

23        Q.   Mr. Raseta let's just talk about what the -- the things that you

24     know.

25             Now, do you know whether, in the Army of Yugoslavia, any

Page 5983

 1     proceedings would be instituted for a deserter from a member of the army

 2     of the Serbian Krajina?

 3        A.   I do not know of that.

 4        Q.   And do you know whether individuals who left without leave - a

 5     unit - were subjected to military proceedings in the SVK?

 6        A.   Yes.  All individuals who left or who were absent without leave

 7     from the SVK were subjected to proceedings and a request was forwarded to

 8     the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia for such individuals to be

 9     returned to the SVK.

10             I don't know of any instances nor I do recall that any such

11     individual was returned to the SVK.

12        Q.   Well, just to be clear, I was asking you about the proceedings

13     within the SVK itself.  But you are talking about the requests submitted

14     to the Yugoslav army for those individuals to be returned back to the

15     SVK; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Would there be previously disciplinary proceedings undertaken so

18     that -- against such individuals and then, following that, there would be

19     a request to the Army of Yugoslavia to return those individuals; correct?

20        A.   Of course.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see document P1147,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Oh, yes.  Well, I propose, like last

25     time for only this page or this Article, rather, to be tendered into

Page 5984

 1     evidence.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't have it in English, sir. [Overlapping

 3     speakers] ...

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I also propose then that we

 5     tender it as a MFI document, and then we will request for this entirely

 6     Article 116 to be translated into English.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 8             MR. SAXON:  That last point was my concern, and it has been

 9     clarified.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That it be MFI'd.

11             MR. SAXON:  [Microphone not activated]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  06367 is admitted into evidence and marked for

13     identification.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D90, marked for identification,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Raseta, I don't know if you had occasion to see this document

19     already.  If not, you can take a look at it, please?

20        A.   Do you mean the document that is before me on the screen?

21        Q.   Yes, that one.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just scroll it down a little

23     bit so that the witness can see the signature.

24        A.   I have read it, and this is the first time that I see this

25     document.

Page 5985

 1        Q.   Well, I will only have two questions for you.

 2             So this is a document from the Main Staff of the SVK sent, on the

 3     14th of December, to RC RMO of the Yugoslav.  Do you recall what this

 4     means?

 5        A.   Yes, this is the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence of

 6     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia [Realtime transcript read in error

 7     "Yugoslav army"] I think that is what it refers to.

 8        Q.   Did you receive your salaries via this accounting centre, and the

 9     salaries were actually deposited in your accounts in Yugoslavia?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you know of instances where individuals would be absent

12     without leave and that they would still be receiving pay for that?

13        A.   I don't have such information, but there probably were such

14     instances; otherwise this document would not exist.

15        Q.   This Colonel, Colonel Krnjajic, do you know this person.  He was

16     involved in personnel; correct?

17        A.   Yes, correct.  Now you have helped me read out the name because

18     it wasn't very clear this is was Dusan Krnjajic, and he was the personnel

19     officer in the Main Staff of the SVK.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I move to tender this document into

21     evidence.  Oh no, I apologise, it is already an exhibit.

22             I would just like to clarify something because I think there is

23     an error here on page 27, line 11.

24        Q.   You said the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence but you

25     didn't say of the Yugoslav army because those are different institutions?

Page 5986

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   This letter was sent, to be more precise, to the accounting

 3     service of the Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   When an officer from the SVK submitted a request to return to the

 6     Yugoslav army, he would have to submit that request to his superior

 7     officer in the SVK; is that right?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   And on page 5927 you said that requests submitted by officers,

10     whose tour of duty or term of duty had expired, that their request to

11     return were discussed at the collegium of the Main Staff of the Republic

12     of Serbian Krajina; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And if the collegium of the Main Staff or the officer in charge

15     did not provide such an approval and that person left, that would

16     actually be desertion that would be absence without leave; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   When you began your duty in the SVK, your post, your formation

19     post, was established by your superior officer or the competent officer

20     in the Serbian army of Krajina; correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And that information, as to what position you were posted to, was

23     sent by their personnel service to the 40th Personnel Centre, in order to

24     take care of the status-related issues; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5987

 1        Q.   During that one year, when you went to work in that army, other

 2     army, you said that Celeketic had talked to Dimitrijevic, who had told

 3     him that they did not find an adequate substitute for you, and that,

 4     therefore, you had to remain performing your duty there.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And did you not have any objections to make on that decision; is

 7     that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And later on, when you held the position on which you were able

10     to speak to Mr. Dimitrijevic on a par, you did not tell him that you

11     objected against his statement that he should -- you should carry on your

12     duty in the army.

13        A.   No.  Because he told me that he would find an adequate substitute

14     for me.

15        Q.   In the mean time, you continued with duties in the SVK and

16     gradually were promoted to a position that was higher to any of the

17     positions that you held in the VJ.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And your establishment post was higher than the post that you

20     left in the VJ when you went to join the SVK?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Let us discuss now another document you talked about on Thursday,

23     and that's P2333, which is Celeketic's letter, sent to General Perisic,

24     in relation to certain SVK officers.

25             Certain information is provided about the whereabouts of all of

Page 5988

 1     individuals listed in this letter; is that right?  Or rather not the

 2     whereabouts but which positions and establishment posts they held.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Among others under number 3, the commander of the 39 Corps is

 5     mentioned.  Then also the 21st Corps is mentioned, the 18th Corps, the is

 6     15th Corps, and finally the 7th corps.

 7             Tell us, all the corps mentioned here were, in fact, various

 8     titles for the SVK Corps; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Corps bearing such titles did not exist in the Yugoslav army, VJ,

11     did they?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Under number 1 there is an individual mentioned who you referred

14     to, but let us look first at the date.  This is it a document dated 10

15     December 1994; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Under 1, the individual by the Dusan Loncar, son of Mitar is

18     mentioned, and he is the Chief of Staff -- he is a Deputy Commander as

19     well, and he is an OMJ colonel?

20        A.   It is not that he occupies the position of the chief of the

21     Main Staff of the SVK; rather, he is being nominated to that post.

22        Q.   Very well.  This nomination to the post of the Chief of Staff,

23     his rank, which should be verified in the VJ, is that something that

24     matters to him a great deal on account of his salary?

25        A.   Of course, definitely.

Page 5989

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 2             MR. SAXON:  I don't know how this witness can speak -- well, the

 3     answer has been given but I don't know how this witness can be ...

 4     [Microphone not activated].

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure whether you spoke; when you

 6     spoke, your mic was on or not.

 7             MR. SAXON:  The witness has given his answer, Your Honour.  I

 8     withdraw it.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

10             Proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness testified to

12     this position of theirs which later on reflected itself on their

13     status-related rights, and I think this is something that he talked about

14     on the direct.  I may be mistaken, but I will withdraw the question, yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection is withdrawn, sir.

16             MR. SAXON:  To be fair to Mr. Lukic he is absolutely right, and I

17     am withdrawing my objection.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection is withdrawn, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I suggest

20     that we take our break now.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.

22             Court adjourned.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:   Yes, Mr. Lukic.

Page 5990

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Raseta, we will stay with this document for

 3     another moment.

 4             The document reads in respect of Dusan Loncar, "duty" -- let me

 5     be precise:

 6             "Duty, Chief of Staff, and, at the same time, Deputy Commander,

 7     at the Main Staff of the VJ 40th Personnel Centre."

 8             In view of your recent answer, I put it to you, and we will have

 9     a look at another document, I don't know if you will agree with me or

10     disagree with me, at the point when this document was composed on the

11     10th December, he already held the position of the Chief of Staff, but

12     this position of his had only to be acknowledged by the VJ.

13             Would you agree with me and could you confirm for me whether he

14     was already the Chief of Staff at the time?

15        A.   I can't confirm that because I am not familiar with it.

16        Q.   We'll look at another document, but let's just keep in mind the

17     date of this document, namely, the 10th of December, 1994; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Let us now call up document D87.

20             Have a look at the document and I will have a couple of questions

21     for you.

22        A.   I've read it.

23        Q.   This is a decision, issued by the President of the Republic of

24     the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Mr. Milan Martic, concerning exceptional

25     promotion of Mr. Loncar, and it's the same Dusan Loncar we referred to

Page 5991

 1     earlier; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   As you see, the date of the document is only six days after the

 4     earlier document; namely, the date is the 16th of December.

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   And by virtue of this decision he is promoted to the rank of the

 7     major-general.  And will you agree with me that at the time he was

 8     already chief of the SVK -- or, rather, Chief of Staff, on the position

 9     of the Chief of Staff?

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

12             MR. SAXON:  Simply a request.  If counsel and the witness could

13     slowdown just a little bit and perhaps pause between question and answer,

14     because at times -- Mr. Lukic is already on his next question, but I even

15     hear the English translation and does not give me an ability, if I can or

16     need to, to respond or make an objection.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

18             But, Mr. Lukic --

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The fact that -- the fact that this document is

21     dated the 16th of December, 1994, a date after the 10th of December, it

22     doesn't say anything about whether or not he was already Chief of Staff

23     on the 10th of December.  If it predated the 10th of December, I would

24     understand.  But I'm not quite sure whether it is serving your purposes.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness was unable to

Page 5992

 1     answer either my earlier question or this one, I will not insist on this.

 2     I hoped, perhaps that the document would refresh his memory, but,

 3     evidently the witness is not familiar with the details.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Another brief question, in relation to your Thursday testimony.

 7             I think it was at page 5930 of the transcript that you talked

 8     about the fact that Martic gave you a task concerning an amount of fuel

 9     that was supposed to arrive from Yugoslavia.  Do you recall that?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   You received this task directly from Milan Martic; is that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   At the time when he gave you this task, he was already the

14     president of the republic, was he not?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You don't know if the fuel was purchased in the Federal Republic

17     of Yugoslavia, perhaps it had been refined in the -- at the refinery in

18     Pancevo.  You don't know by which means they obtained the fuel.

19        A.   No.  I only know where it was that I waited for the column to

20     arrive.

21        Q.   At any rate, you did not receive the task from Celeketic but

22     directly from the president; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Let us now briefly discuss your reports, i.e., the reports sent

25     to the Security Administration, and which you testified about.

Page 5993

 1             Let's look at document 2334?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that a P document, or do you --

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P.

 4        Q.   This is your report dated the 2nd of May, 1995; is that right?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   Am I right if I say that the gist of this report, why it was

 7     sent, was the emergency situation in which the territory of the Republic

 8     of Serbian Krajina found itself in the aftermath of Operation Flash?

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   When you look at the first part of the document, in many

11     respects, it seems to me to be a combat report, because it refers to the

12     situation in the theatre of war, more of a combat report than an

13     intelligence report, and you will correct me if I'm wrong.

14        A.   No, you're right.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 3 of the B/C/S

16     version, and 5 of the English version.

17        Q.   There's one sentence that I find interesting, and I'd like to

18     have your comment on it.

19             You referred here to a meeting which was held by the Supreme

20     Defence Council in its extended, enlarged form; and you say there, all

21     the participants in the discussions and in their proposals agreed not to

22     cave in to the Ustashas.  However, there are different approaches on how

23     to resolve the situation.  Except for Martic, Celeketic and the narrow

24     corps of the Main Staff, all the other ones were in favour of a peaceful

25     solution to the newly arisen situation and that as a precondition they

Page 5994

 1     suggest that the 18th Corps commander sign a cease-fire agreement with

 2     the commander of the opposing side which would mean, which would imply, a

 3     surrender and a capitulation of this part of the territory."

 4             Mr. Raseta, you were probably familiar at the time with the fact

 5     that the leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was in favour

 6     of a peaceful solution of any sort of conflict in the territory of the

 7     Serbian Republic of Krajina?

 8        A.   Yes, that's right.

 9        Q.   Yes, we have to have an audible answer from you.

10             In your view, this piece of information which shows what line of

11     thinking of the strict political and military leadership of the RSK was

12     important to be conveyed to the federal leadership [as interpreted], in

13     order to clearly see what their attitude towards the conflict was, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In other words, what you were doing as a security organ --

16             MR. SAXON:  I'm sorry, but I believe that question calls for

17     speculation, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Right.

20        Q.   Let me put the question this way.  Or, rather, Your Honour, what

21     I'm seeking from the witness is a comment, in other words let me put this

22     question to the witness.

23             Why did you believe that you needed to convey this part of your

24     report about the attitude that various individuals had toward the

25     conflict?  Why did you feel it important to be sent to the Security

Page 5995

 1     Administration?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 3             MR. SAXON:  The problem with -- the problem with that question is

 4     that because of the previous question, the witness has effectively been

 5     given an answer, so I don't know what weight could be given to a

 6     response.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do agree it's a question of weight this time.

 8             MR. SAXON:  I agree, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             Proceed, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Raseta, can you answer my question?

13        A.   This is my answer:  A lot of time has passed in the meantime.  I

14     know that President Martic and Celeketic were not in favour of a peaceful

15     solution to the problem.  They wanted to return with -- to return fire.

16     The other participants were of the opinion as described in the document,

17     that through negotiations and through peaceful means, a resolution to the

18     problem should be sound.

19        Q.   In your view, the information, when conveyed to the federal army,

20     about what the resolution of the conflict situation would be, would that

21     be important to them?

22        A.   Of course.  That's why I informed the Security Administration

23     thereof.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I take it up on your behalf.

25             Mr. Lukic, that question had just been objected to a little

Page 5996

 1     earlier and you rephrased it in an acceptable manner, but for the fact of

 2     weight.  I don't know now why you abandon the acceptable question and go

 3     back to the objectionable question.

 4             You had asked the question, sir, why did you find it important to

 5     report this difference of opinion by Martic and Celeketic to the

 6     leadership in -- in Serbia.  That was the question.  He can tell you what

 7     went on in his mind at that time.  But now you're asking him about why

 8     you think it is -- why he should think it's important for the Serbians to

 9     get this report.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't think that this constitutes

11     speculation.  I suppose that this was a sort of information a security

12     organ should convey, and I believe that that's how the witness sees the

13     situation, and I don't think this calls for speculation on the part of

14     the witness.  What is specific about this witness, perhaps we can ask him

15     to leave the courtroom and then we can discuss the matter.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  There is no need for him to leave the courtroom.

17             When you say "in your view," that's how you started your

18     question, you're seeking an opinion.  But when you say, Why did you send

19     this report?  Why did you find it important to send this report; you're

20     asking him about what happened in his mind.  The way you are putting the

21     question, you want him to tell us what happened in the mind of the people

22     to whom he was sending the report, and that is speculation.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mm-hmm.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you see the difference?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do.  I'm trying to rephrase the

Page 5997

 1     question now.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do, sir.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   According to you, at the time when you sent such reports, was it

 5     important that you do convey information to the allied [Realtime

 6     transcript read in error "applied"] army?

 7        A.   Of course.  Because this was a very delicate situation, the

 8     situation in which some elements of the SVK found themselves, and that's

 9     why I thought it important to inform my chief of the administration about

10     it.  The chief of the specialist department of my corps was killed.  This

11     is something that is not mentioned in here and that's why it was very

12     important for me to convey the information.

13        Q.   So that would have been important, because the corps -- the chief

14     that particular section was sent through the 40th Personnel Centre; is

15     that why?

16        A.   No.  But he had held the rank of lieutenant-colonel; that's why.

17        Q.   In your view, the information was information -- was important --

18     at the time you compiled this report, you felt that it was important for

19     the information to be perceived as important for the security of the

20     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

21        A.   Precisely.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're waiting for me.  I have nothing to say.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can you answer the question, please?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question has been answered.

Page 5998

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Oh, yes, right.  I didn't

 2     see it in the transcript.  Sorry.  Very well.

 3        Q.   Let us look at another report and that is P1018.

 4             This is another interim report, one of the group of reports which

 5     dealt with the situation; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   It was sent on the 3rd of August of 1995, at the time of the

 8     commencement of Operation Storm, in the territory of the RSK; is that

 9     right?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to page 2, please, of the

12     B/C/S version, and page 2 of the English version.

13        Q.   In the first paragraph two acronyms are mentioned.  And can you

14     tell us what they stand for, HIS and SOS of -- of the Western countries.

15     Do you see that in the second paragraph.  HIS or SOS of the western

16     countries?

17        A.   SOS is the foreign intelligence services, and HIS, that's short

18     for Croatian intelligence service.  I can't give you the exact title.  S

19     stands for security in Croatian.

20             At any rate, it is the Croatian intelligence service and foreign

21     intelligence services of the west.

22        Q.   In the next paragraph you say:

23             "It was ascertained that over 80 percent of the disinformation

24     was sent through UNPROFOR.  In most cases through liaison officers and

25     various friendly relations, but in both cases making sure that the

Page 5999

 1     disinformation reaches the highest levels (commanders of brigades),"

 2     et cetera.

 3             Could you explain or interpret this.  What is this about?  What

 4     type of disinformation are you talking about here?

 5        A.   Well, I cannot remember the specifics right now.  I know that

 6     there was -- there were such instances and I know that we verified that,

 7     but I cannot recall at this point what they were about.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, according to you, was it important at this time,

 9     in terms of security of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, to know how

10     the UNPROFOR functioned in view of the negotiations that were under way

11     where the Yugoslav role was significant?

12        A.   Of course.  They to be significant.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We can remove this document.  And

14     could we now please pull up --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do so, sir.  I have been to trying

16     desperately to find the acronym, SOS, on the English version of this

17     document and I'm not seeing it.  Can I see it on the B/C/S version.

18     Maybe I'm missing something somewhere.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You're absolute right, Your Honour.

20     In English it says western security and intelligence services and that's

21     probably the full name of the -- actually the development of the acronym.

22     And that's the same problem that we've had before with the translation

23     service, where the acronym is missing, and I agree with you there is no

24     mention -- there is no acronym SOS appearing in the English translation.

25             SOS means foreign intelligence services, and it was correctly

Page 6000

 1     translated --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, sir.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up

 4     Exhibit P2336.

 5        Q.   You have already testified in relation to this document.  This is

 6     a report prepared by you that was sent on the 26th of May, 1995, but it

 7     was sent to the commander of the SVK; is that right?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   And my understanding, as to the contents of this document, is

10     that you -- that it is to be checked why the order that was issued by

11     General Celeketic, the order to shell the Sisak refinery, why it was not

12     carried out; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now let's take a look at the date of this document.  It's dated

15     26th of May, 1995; right?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   In fact, you're sending this report to the new commander of the

18     SVK, who was appointed on the 18th of May, 1995, General Mrksic?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   All right.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just bear with me a moment.  I will

22     have a few questions about the dismissal of -- or replacement of

23     General Celeketic and we should try and remember this date.

24        Q.   But, in any case, as claimed in the indictment, General Mrksic

25     was appointed as the commander of the SVK on the 18th of May, 1995.  If

Page 6001

 1     you don't recall the date, I won't insist on it.

 2        A.   I'm not sure of the exact date.  But it was in May, that's for

 3     sure.

 4        Q.   Well, I have to note, as you read the entire report, to me, it

 5     seemed illogical that this was sent to General Celeketic where in fact

 6     you are discussing General Celeketic in the report itself.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   The information that you related to the commander of the SVK on

 9     26th of May, that Gacic did not carry out the orders, you did not submit

10     this report to the Security Administration; is that correct?

11        A.   That's right.  I did not.

12        Q.   And now just a few questions regarding the daily situation

13     reports that were sent by the command of the Main Staff of the SVK to,

14     among others, the General Staff of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

15     and the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and the president of

16     Serbia.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now, could we please pull up

18     document 1023 --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  P or 5?  The interpreter is not sure.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What does P or 5 mean, sir?  This document 1023 is

21     it an exhibit already.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.  Exhibit P1023.

23        Q.   This is the order by General Mile Novakovic when he was a

24     commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Krajina.  You've already

25     testified to this.  You said that he assumed but you weren't sure that

Page 6002

 1     VSO meant the Supreme Defence Council of the federal republic and it

 2     says:

 3             "In order to achieve full and high quality drawing up of combat

 4     reports and their timely submission to the VJ GS ..."

 5             Correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And then you list a number of bits of information that -- and

 8     reports that are to be drawn up, such as the movement of enemy forces and

 9     so on.  You are aware and you're familiar with this type of information;

10     correct?

11        A.   That's correct.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up another

13     document, Exhibit P1617.

14        Q.   I don't know if you have already seen this document, so I will

15     give you a chance to see it now and read it.

16             If you've read through this document let me ask you this:  This

17     document is dated 6 February, 1993.  Before you left, you were

18     transferred to the SVK, now, do you agree when you read this document and

19     see what the purpose of this request, as it is stated here, and when you

20     compare it to the previous document, that, in fact, the purpose or the

21     goal, the end is the same.  The request refers to the same goal.

22        A.   Well, since I did not take part in the drafting, and I wasn't

23     there at the time I could not really give you an answer.  Have I my

24     opinion about it, but --

25        Q.   No, no.  Let's not go there.  But would you agree with me in

Page 6003

 1     terms of what type of information is requested here, it is similar to the

 2     one that we've seen earlier sent by General Novakovic?

 3        A.   Well, yes, in essence, it's about the same.

 4        Q.   And mention is also made in this document, this request, that

 5     these reports be submitted that they should also be sent to the SVK.

 6             Now let me ask you:  Did you -- was there in place a system of

 7     exchange of information with the VRS, both in terms of security and

 8     operative information?

 9        A.   Well, I can say almost none.

10        Q.   Well, that's what you said in your report.  But do you know

11     whether intelligence and combat operation -- information was exchanged in

12     such reports?

13        A.   I couldn't answer that question.

14        Q.   Mr. Raseta, are you aware of the systems of communications that

15     existed in the former JNA, that existed on the entire territory of the

16     former Yugoslavia, that it was not broken up, that it remained in place?

17        A.   I know very little about that.  I don't know exactly what it is

18     that you would like me to tell you.

19        Q.   Well, simply do you know of instances of any army, including VRS,

20     SVK, JNA, the Croatian Army, the HVO, the BiH Army, that they could

21     actually use that same system, communications systems that it remained

22     from the previous, the former Yugoslavia that they were in a position to

23     use it, if they were trained properly?

24        A.   I can't give you an answer to that question.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up document

Page 6004

 1     P2335.

 2        Q.   You've testified to this document in the examination-in-chief.

 3     Can I ask you this:  What is the meaning of these numbers that are added,

 4     that are handwritten.  We see the 15th, 11th, 21st, 39th, 18th K.

 5        A.   This means that this same report was submitted to the commanders

 6     of the 15th, 11th, 21st, 39th and 18th Corps of the Serbian army of

 7     Krajina.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 3 in the

10     B/C/S version, and 4 in English, the portion referring to the security

11     situation.

12        Q.   In the second paragraph it says:

13             "UNPROFOR members and members of other international

14     organisations continue to perform intelligence work against the RSK.  In

15     this period, the following activities of these organisations have been

16     registered."

17             And then it goes on.  Now the same question that I asked before.

18     At the time when these reports were drafted and some members of your

19     organ, as you said, participated in the drafting, did you consider that

20     sending this information regarding the UNPROFOR was important?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Very well.  Now I would like to ask you a few questions about

23     your testimony regarding the shelling of Zagreb in May 1995.

24             You testified in detail in the Martic case regarding this matter.

25     Do you remember?

Page 6005

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you also provided some information in this respect in your

 3     statement to the OTP, and I assume that you had occasion to see this

 4     statement during the prepping for this appearance in court?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D00-9162, pages 21

 7     in B/C/S and 15 in English.  Paragraph 70 of your statement to the OTP,

 8     your 2005 statement.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said it is 1D00-9162.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  1D00-9162.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Well, I will read this because I see that it carries on, onto the

14     next page but I'm reading the first sentence in B/C/S:

15             "Based on my information as head of the security organs of the

16     SVK, Martic and Celeketic were the only ones who knew about the location

17     of the Orkan MBRL and who was in charge of" --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Saxon, I'm sorry.

19             MR. SAXON:  Very sorry to interrupt.  It's just that in the

20     original English version of the statement the sentence that Mr. Lukic

21     just read is quite different if I'm reading the correct sentence.  In the

22     English version it says:

23             "Based on my information as head of the security organs of the

24     SVK," and I'm wrong because I'm reading the wrong line.

25             I apologise for the interruption.

Page 6006

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mm-hmm.  Perhaps I should read it in

 4     English that would be best.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

 6             MR. SAXON:  I'm just very sorry, it's simply so the record is

 7     clear.  It's just that Mr. Lukic referred to the first sentence and is he

 8     referring to the first sentence at paragraph 70.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, sir.

10             MR. SAXON:  Okay.  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] To be as precise as possible, I will

12     read the relevant part in English, since the English version is the

13     official version.

14        Q.   In that paragraph of your statement you say:  [In English]

15             "Based on my information as a head of security organs of the SVK

16     Martic and Celeketic were the only ones to know about the location of the

17     Orkan MBRL and who was in charge of protecting them.  Martic and

18     Celeketic were also the only ones who could decide about the use of

19     Orkan ..."

20             [Interpretation] This is what the statement says and you do stand

21     by the statement today, don't you?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   Paragraph 73 --

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we pull it up, please.  I'm

25     interested in the third sentence.  Can we turn to the next page in

Page 6007

 1     English.

 2        Q.   Here you state:  [In English]

 3             "As I said earlier in my understanding that -- it is my

 4     understanding that the only Martic Celeketic were involved in the

 5     decision making protest to shell Zagreb with Orkan?"

 6             [Interpretation] You still stand by that statement today, don't

 7     you?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I will not seek to have the relevant portions admitted, since we

10     have them in the transcript.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we pull up document P496, please.

12        Q.   I suppose you're familiar with the document?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   This is the classic combat order issued by the commander; is that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The date is the 1st of May, 1995 when it was sent to whose

18     command exactly?

19        A.   Of the 7th, 21st Corps and Battalion of the military police of

20     the Main Staff of the SVK.

21        Q.   And nobody else?

22        A.   Right.

23        Q.   Mr. Raseta, you did not see a single document report or piece of

24     information where Celeketic or Martic informed anyone in the

25     Yugoslav army, in the VJ, about this order.

Page 6008

 1        A.   No, I haven't.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I will now turn to the answers you gave in relation

 3     to your retirement.

 4             In your testimony on Thursday, page 5946, you said that you went

 5     back to the VJ upon a prior approval from General Mrksic.  Do you recall

 6     this?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   At the time, General Mrksic was your superior officer in the

 9     Serbian army of Krajina; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You went back to the VJ, or, rather, into the territory of the

12     FRY without his approval based on what we read from the provisions of the

13     Law on Army, in other words, you wilfully left the ranks of the army; is

14     that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   When you joined the Yugoslav army, or rejoined the Yugoslav Army,

17     there was no post available corresponding to your position or rank, and

18     that's why you applied for retirement.

19        A.   Right.

20        Q.   You submitted your application to the relevant unit that was your

21     home unit before you left the army for the SVK.

22        A.   Right.

23        Q.   I still have several questions for you on a different subject.

24             You attended the collegium of the Main Staff of the SVK when

25     Celeketic showed you his written resignation, that he intended to submit

Page 6009

 1     and he held the position at the time of -- of the commander.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you personally saw the document and the -- and Celeketic

 4     explained to you what it was about.

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   Do you recall General Celeketic telling you or anyone else

 7     earlier on that he would resign if any part of the territory of the RSK

 8     came to be occupied or ended up in the hands of the Croatian army?

 9        A.   Yes, that's what he said at the collegium of the commanders.

10        Q.   And following Operation Flash, a certain portion of the RSK was

11     no longer in the hands of the Serbian army of Krajina; in other words, it

12     was occupied, captured, or re-taken, depending on the side viewing the

13     situation.

14        A.   That's right.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in 65 ter document

16     6103.

17        Q.   I'm not sure whether you're familiar with the document.  Have a

18     look at that time, and I'll have a couple of questions.

19             The document is self-explanatory.  The date is 18th of May, 1995.

20     I asked you earlier when it was that Commander Mrksic was appointed, but

21     you weren't sure of the date.

22             Did you know that, at the time, the Assembly of the RSK carried a

23     decision to release General Celeketic from the duty of the commander of

24     the SVK?

25        A.   This is the first time I see the document.  I didn't know

Page 6010

 1     anything about it.

 2        Q.   Tell me, have you heard of Rajko Lezaic and did you know that he

 3     was the president of the Assembly at the time?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can I have this document admitted, Your Honour.  Is it one of the

 6     documents from the 65 ter list?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 8     please be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D91.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move into private session

12     for a couple of my questions, please.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6011











11 Page 6011 redacted. Private session.















Page 6012

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             May you close your cross-examination in open session, please,

20     Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

22             Your Honour, I have no further questions for the witness.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Yes, any re-examination, Mr. Saxon.

Page 6013

 1             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.  If I may have but a moment to set

 2     up the podium.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before Mr. Saxon starts, I have to

 5     make two corrections of the transcript.

 6             Page 38, line 1, and page 36, line 19, I used the term allied

 7     army, army of allies and I think something else was recorded.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page 38, line?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 38, line 1, and page 36, line

10     19.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My page 38 doesn't refer to any allied thing.

12             MR. SAXON:  If I can assist, Your Honour, I have that term on

13     page 39, lines 13 to 14.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  I can see that at line 14.  You say in line

15     14 should read allied and not applied.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What was the other.

18             MR. LUKIC:  36, line 19, federal leadership.

19             [Interpretation] I said allied and not federal.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it a correction that you want to put.  Thank

21     you so much.

22             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

23             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Colonel.

Page 6014

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   I would like to ask you some questions --

 3             MR. SAXON:  If we can --

 4        Q.   About a document that my colleague also showed you today.

 5             MR. SAXON:  This would be 65 ter 6063.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's now D89.  If you can refer to it by its

 7     exhibit number.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Let me ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I'm told only seven pages were tendered.

12             MR. SAXON:  That's correct.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I apologise.

14             MR. SAXON:  We'll see if, perhaps administratively, at the end of

15     this examination, what would be the best way to deal with this document.

16             If we can turn, please, to Article 21 at this time, which will be

17     on page 10 in the English version and page 9 in the B/C/S version.

18             If we could --

19        Q.   If you can take a look at Article 20, Colonel -- excuse me,

20     Article 21.

21        A.   Can I see it.

22        Q.   Which refers to:

23             "An active duty serviceman who was sent according to service

24     requirements to work in another state organ, organisation of associated

25     labour or other organisation."

Page 6015

 1             MR. SAXON:  Actually, I would like to move from this article, if

 2     I may, please, to Article 30, on page 14 and page 12 of the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   And we see in the -- I believe my colleague showed this article

 4     to you during his cross-examination.  And this article talks about

 5     sending reports to the following parties concerning data gathered and the

 6     results of checks conducted.

 7             And the second paragraph refers to:

 8             "Other officers of commands, units, institutions, and staffs of

 9     the armed forces, concerning other data that is important for the

10     security and combat readiness of these commands, units, institutions and

11     staffs."

12             Was it pursuant to this article that you continued to monitor

13     persons, officers from the VJ, certain officers from the VJ, who had been

14     sent for -- for service in the SVK?

15        A.   This is quite a different matter.  This has to do with the

16     verification of certain information from the field of security,

17     information sent to the organs competent to take charge of security

18     issues.  That's number one.

19             Number two, if the situation dictates that some other senior

20     officers be informed of certain information, then the information will be

21     conveyed to such officers as have the competence to act upon the

22     information.

23             So this is quite separate from the other matter that you put to

24     me about the surveillance conducted in respect of certain individuals who

25     were members of the SVK.

Page 6016

 1        Q.   Just so the record is clear, then, would this paragraph give you

 2     an obligation, for example, while you were serving in the SVK, to provide

 3     information, for example, to the Security Administration of the VJ

 4     General Staff.

 5        A.   Yes.  If methods and means normally employed the security organ

 6     are, indeed, applied.

 7             So the answer is yes.

 8        Q.   Very well.

 9             MR. SAXON:  If we can turn to page 18 in the English and page 15

10     in the B/C/S version.  This is in chapter IV, which is entitled the

11     powers and obligations of officers in security organs in performing their

12     duties.  And if you could turn your mind -- actually, I may have erred

13     because I want to look at Article 43 which may be on the next page of the

14     B/C/S version.

15        Q.   If could you direct your attention to Article 43 for a moment,

16     Colonel Raseta.

17        A.   Yes, I'm following you.

18        Q.   While you were serving in the SVK, between 1993 and 1995, did

19     this Article give you the authority to arrest a person and deliver him to

20     a military court or a military institution of the Army of Yugoslavia?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I did discuss the document with the

23     witness, but I did not touch upon this subject.  I think that Mr. Saxon

24     has gone beyond the scope of my cross-examination.

25             Had he wanted to examine the witness on these issues, he could

Page 6017

 1     have used the document from his list.  In none of my questions did I

 2     touch upon criminal prosecution in the army.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

 4             MR. SAXON:  Well, that may be, Your Honour, except what Mr. Lukic

 5     did touch upon and the whole tenor of his use of this document were the

 6     witness's powers and authority pursuant to this document, particularly

 7     while he was serving in the SVK, and it seems to me I should be able to

 8     explore that with this document on re-examination.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Quite briefly, I think that this is a

11     very broad interpretation of my cross-examination.  I touched upon very

12     specific and clear topics arising from the document.  This does not in

13     any way touch upon my cross-examination.

14             MR. SAXON:  Well, for one thing, he discussed officers who

15     deserted, Your Honour.  That was one topic of his cross-examination.

16     And, for example, such a topic might fall within the purview of this

17     article in this document.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would that be a topic -- would that be conduct

19     that would be justiciable within a military court or would that be a

20     disciplinary inquiry.

21             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I don't want to testify; it seems that

22     would be a question for the witness.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you put that question to the witness.

24             MR. SAXON:

25        Q.   Would conduct, for example, such as desertion in the army of the

Page 6018

 1     Republika Srpska Krajina, would such conduct be referred to a military

 2     court, or would it be referred to some kind of a disciplinary inquiry, or

 3     both?

 4        A.   I understand.  This paragraph, quite unambiguously, places the

 5     obligation about the security organs to proceed as regulated in this

 6     article.  However, the military judiciary in the SVK was non-existent.

 7     In other words, we were unable to apply these provisions.  Had it been

 8     possible we would have dealt with the problems of desertion, incitement

 9     to mutiny and other conduct which constitutes a threat to security upon

10     the request of the prosecutors' offices and the military courts of the

11     FRY did not have jurisdiction over the SVK, or, rather, the RSK

12     territory.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Raseta, quite independently of this document

14     here, the question simply is:  Would desertion constitute a crime

15     justiciable, in the military courts, or would it be a matter for

16     disciplinary inquiry?  Can you just answer that question?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This does not fall within my

18     competence.  It falls within the competence of the courts.  I think it

19     does fall under criminal prosecution; the desertion, that is.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what you think.  That is not fact.  The

21     correct answer is it doesn't fall under your competence, so you don't

22     know.  Then, of course, you added an opinion.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, I don't know.

Page 6019

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I must rule you out of order -- I must have

 2     sustained the objection by Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn, please, to what is Article 48, which is

 4     on page 19 of the English version and page 16 of the B/C/S version.

 5        Q.   And if you could review, Colonel Celeketic [sic], please,

 6     Article 48?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Review, Colonel Celeketic?

 8             MR. SAXON:  I'm very sorry, I should have said Colonel Raseta.

 9        Q.   Have you seen Article 48?

10        A.   I can see it.

11        Q.   Article 48 -- on cross-examination my colleague asked you about

12     the position you held in the VJ, before you went to the SVK and the fact

13     that you were promoted while you were serving in the SVK.

14             This particular article describes the obligations of an

15     authorised officer of the security organ to carry out tasks within the

16     competence of the security organ assigned to him.  Regardless of whether

17     or not these tasks are covered by the work that is regularly conducted in

18     their establishment position.

19             My question for you is:  While you were serving in the SVK --

20     let's maybe -- step by step.  When you first went to the SVK in

21     October 1993, what establishment position did you hold in the

22     40th Personnel Centre?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Saxon please speak into his

24     microphone.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My duties were twofold.  My first

Page 6020

 1     duty was that of a chief of the information analysis department of the

 2     security department of the SVK Main Staff, and the second duty was of the

 3     chief of the security Department of the SVK Main Staff.

 4             MR. SAXON:

 5        Q.   And were these duties reflected as your establishment positions

 6     in the 40th Personnel Centre?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I see the time.  Would this be the

 9     appropriate time to take the second break.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] indeed, it is.  We will

11     take a break and come back at a quarter to 6.00.

12             Court adjourned.

13                           --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 5.50 p.m.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

16             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Colonel Raseta, during his cross-examination, my colleague,

18     Mr. Lukic, at page 16, lines 12 to 15, asked you whether the Security

19     Administration of the VJ General Staff ever directed or managed your work

20     while you served in the SVK, and your answer was no.

21             I'm wondering whether you could take a look at Article 95 of

22     these rules of service, which would be on page 31 in the English version,

23     page 26 in the B/C/S version, the chapter entitled:  Work of security

24     organs in exceptional circumstances in imminent threat of war and in war.

25             I see Article 95 moves over onto the next page.  If you could

Page 6021

 1     read the first part of it, Colonel, and then perhaps we could go to the

 2     next page in the B/C/S version.

 3             MR. SAXON:  The same with the English version.

 4        Q.   This article:

 5             "Authorises the chief of the Security Administration to prescribe

 6     specialist instructions on, inter alia, the work of security organs in

 7     gathering information on security checks and on individuals, and on the

 8     work of security organs, on their preparations for work in war, an

 9     imminent threat of war and other exceptional circumstances."

10             My question for you is:  During the time that you served in the

11     SVK, did you receive any - to use the term here - specialist instructions

12     from the chief of the Security Administration of the General Staff of the

13     VJ?

14        A.   No, other than the individuals that were under operative

15     processing, in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, who were later

16     transferred to the army of Serbian Krajina.

17        Q.   Does that mean you received some instructions about these

18     individuals from the chief of the Security Administration?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And can you recall what those instructions were?

21        A.   Well, we were to monitor their activities during their stay in

22     the -- or service in the army of the Serbian Krajina.

23        Q.   And, again, just so the record is clear, did these individuals

24     come from the Army of Yugoslavia to the army of Serbian Krajina?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 6022

 1             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, at this time I would seek to tender the

 2     articles that I have shown to the witness, at this time, from this

 3     document.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Those articles are admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The pages tendered by the Prosecution now will be

 9     added to the exhibit that constitutes the pages that were tendered by the

10     Defence, and they will come under one exhibit number.

11             And I think that was Exhibit D89.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   And, Colonel, just to follow up on my last question, these

16     instructions that you received from the chief of the Security

17     Administration to -- to monitor the activities of these individuals

18     during their service in the SVK, were you obliged to follow these

19     instructions?

20        A.   I was certainly obliged to follow these instructions, because

21     their activities that they were already engaged in, in the

22     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were assessed to -- the possibility was

23     foreseen that they might continue to engage in the same kind of activity

24     in the army of the Serbian Krajina, which would then threaten the army,

25     and this is the reason why we had to monitor them.

Page 6023

 1        Q.   And when you say that "the possibility was foreseen that they

 2     might continue to engage in the same kind of activity in the army of

 3     Serbian Krajina, which would then threaten the army," in that response

 4     when you used the phrase, "the army, which would threaten the army,"

 5     which army are you referring to?

 6        A.   The Serbian army of Krajina.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So needed to report to the chief of security of the -- of

 8     the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia regarding these individuals

 9     who might do something that would threaten the army of the Serbian

10     Republic of Krajina.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this was not the

13     wording that the witness used, and I think this -- there was an error in

14     interpretation, or, rather, the Prosecutor phrased or framed this

15     question in a different manner, and I would request that he use the

16     proper wording.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which is the proper wording?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I wouldn't want to give any of

19     my comments because that may be perceived as leading question.  But I

20     think that the Prosecutor should not actually draw his own conclusions as

21     to what the witness had said, but, rather, pose a question.  And if he

22     wishes to refer to what the witness actually said and draw conclusions

23     therefrom, then he should point out the exact words of the witness.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, do you have any response to that

Page 6024

 1     objection?

 2             MR. SAXON:  Quite frankly, no -- no, Your Honour.  In my mind, it

 3     is a proper question.  The witness can answer yes or no.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's just look at the question as you had put it.

 5             Actually, that question seems to be a repetition of what the

 6     witness had just answered to.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Then I will withdraw it, Your Honour, and I will move

 8     on.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But just let me make sure that -- you asked him

10     previously from page 64, line 25 and when you say that "the possibility

11     was foreseen that they might continue to engage in the same kind of

12     activity in the army of Serbian Krajina, which would then threaten the

13     army."  In that response, when you used the phrase "the army," "which

14     would threaten the army," which army are you referring to?

15             And he said:  "The Serbian army of Krajina."

16             Then you asked the same question again.

17             MR. SAXON:  Well, in my mind, Your Honour, it was not the same

18     question because I was simply trying to clarify exactly with a was

19     happening.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  What is the difference?

21             MR. SAXON:  I will move on, Your Honour.  I -- I cannot enunciate

22     a clear difference, so I will move on.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Move on.

24             MR. SAXON:  We can now leave this document.

25        Q.   Colonel Raseta, during his cross-examination today - and this is

Page 6025

 1     at page 10, lines 1 to 3 - you agreed with my colleague's question that

 2     the SVK was totally independent of the VJ.

 3             Do you recall that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I'd like perhaps to explore this area with you a little bit.

 6             Was the SVK dependant on VJ officers to make up the Main Staff of

 7     the SVK?

 8        A.   I did not understand your question.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is a leading question,

11     Your Honour.

12             MR. SAXON:  A leading question, Your Honour, suggests an answer

13     that should be given.  This is a question that could be answered yes or

14     no.  It is not leading.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection is overruled.

16             MR. SAXON:

17        Q.   Well, you had testified earlier today that the SVK was completely

18     independent of the VJ, and so I want to explore that.

19             Maybe I can step back for a moment.  While you were serving in

20     the SVK Main Staff, where were you and the other members of the SVK

21     Main Staff assigned to, vis-a-vis the VJ, if anywhere?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand your question either.  What do

23     you mean by "vis-a-vis the VJ"?

24             MR. SAXON:  I will rephrase my question.

25        Q.   While you were in the SVK Main Staff, did you and your -- were

Page 6026

 1     you and your colleagues member of the 40th Personnel Centre of the VJ?

 2        A.   We were members of the Main Staff of the Serbian army of Krajina.

 3     And as for the 40th Personnel Centre, that was the centre via which we

 4     were transferred to and later on returned to the Federal Republic of

 5     Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Can we show -- I want to actually --

 8        Q.   First of all, I will ask you about some names.

 9             While you were in the -- serving in the SVK, did you know a man

10     named Stojo Spanovic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon already put this question

13     during his examination-in-chief, and the witness answered it.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

15             MR. SAXON:  Well, yes, Your Honour, but in a different context.

16     During --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you mean -- is that a context in which you

18     wouldn't know him?  If he did know him in any context at all.

19             MR. SAXON:  No, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I was not clear.

20             I simply wanted to explore with the witness the numbers of

21     officers who were sent from the 40th Personnel Centre.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, ask about the number of personnel.  Don't

23     ask about the person that he already answered to.

24             MR. SAXON:  Well --

25        Q.   Do you know how many -- while you were serving in the SVK

Page 6027

 1     Main Staff, whether the corps commanders of the SVK were attached to the

 2     40th Personnel Centre of the VJ?

 3        A.   How do you mean "attached"?  I don't understand.  Do you know

 4     mean subordinated or ...

 5        Q.   Were they temporarily assigned to the SVK through the

 6     40th Personnel Centre, if you know.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Can we show the witness what is P -- Exhibit P875,

10     please.

11        Q.   If you can take a look at this document, Colonel Raseta.  You see

12     it's from the 14th of May, 1994, from the Main Staff of the SVK to the

13     Yugoslav army General Staff.  And it says:

14             "In order to replenish RSK aviation units, we require the

15     following officers ..."

16             And then there is an long list.

17             Was the SVK dependant on the Army of Yugoslavia to man its

18     aviation units?

19        A.   As far as personnel is concerned, I have already explained on

20     several occasions, that they were actually manned -- the units were

21     manned by officers from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, including

22     pilots and everyone else.

23        Q.   And were these officers sent under orders of the -- sent to serve

24     in the SVK under orders of the Army of Yugoslavia, if you know?

25        A.   This is the first time that I see this list, and I don't know

Page 6028

 1     whether this request was actually granted.

 2        Q.   I'm sorry, Colonel Raseta, it is completely my fault.  My

 3     question wasn't clear.

 4             You had mentioned earlier, a moment ago, that the SVK units were

 5     manned by officers from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, so I was

 6     referring to those officers that were sent to serve -- well, that served

 7     in the SVK.  Were those officers ordered or sent to the SVK under orders

 8     by the VJ, if you know?

 9        A.   I don't know that.

10        Q.   Okay.  You had testified previously, including today, about how

11     after a year -- your first year of service in the SVK, you requested

12     permission to return to the VJ.  Do you recall that testimony?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   And eventually that request was denied by General Dimitrijevic,

15     first, and then that was passed -- that message was passed down --

16             MR. SAXON:  I withdraw -- I anticipate the objection and I will

17     rephrase my question.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you do anticipate one, rephrase immediately.

19             MR. SAXON:  Absolutely.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

21             MR. SAXON:  Absolutely.

22        Q.   That request was denied; is that right, eventually?

23        A.   Yes.  But not quite like that.  General Dimitrijevic said that he

24     did not have suitable replacement for me, so he did not really deny my

25     request, but once the possibility opened, he would actually look at it.

Page 6029

 1        Q.   Thank you, and I stand corrected.  And that's because --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic, you object to him standing

 3     corrected?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no.  It's rather the

 5     interpretation of this portion of the testimony, page 70, line 24, the

 6     witness did not say he would actually look at it.  He worded it

 7     different, that it would be; he didn't say who.  But here, it appears

 8     that, as if Dimitrijevic was the one who said that; whereas, that is not

 9     what the witness said.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you repeat the question to the witness,

11     please, Mr. Saxon.

12             MR. SAXON:

13        Q.   My question simply was -- and all we need is a yes or no answer,

14     the request -- your request to return to the VJ after one year was

15     denied.  That's right?

16        A.   No.

17             MR. SAXON:  Now I'm a little bit confused.

18        Q.   Your request -- I thought that when you requested to return to

19     the VJ after one year eventually that request was denied.  Am I wrong

20     about that?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

22        A.   You are not wrong about it, no.

23             MR. SAXON:  I just want the record to be clear.

24        Q.   And you had specialist skills for which General Dimitrijevic did

25     not have a replacement at that time; is that right?

Page 6030

 1        A.   Yes, not Vasiljevic; it was Dimitrijevic.

 2        Q.   I'm sorry, I said Dimitrijevic but perhaps you heard Vasiljevic.

 3             And those specialist skills, your specialist skills, were also

 4     needed in the SVK; is that right?

 5        A.   Well, it's not that I was not replaceable or that I was so

 6     indispensable but there was not an adequate replacement for me, and the

 7     commander said that I should stay until I was replaced.  I don't know if

 8     I made myself clear.

 9        Q.   And that replacement was supposed to come from the VJ?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  So was the SVK Main Staff, then, at least with respect to

12     your post, chief of the security department, was it dependant on the VJ

13     to fill that post?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the question calls for

16     speculation.

17             MR. SAXON:  Well the witness was serving there at the time.  He

18     was -- he was -- he is and was intimately aware and involved of the

19     situation.  Perhaps we can ask him if can he answer the question.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you able to answer the question, sir?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that a question addressed to me?

22             MR. SAXON:

23        Q.   Yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  That is ...

25             Do you know at all whether the SVK Main Staff depended on the VJ

Page 6031

 1     to filled post that you were occupying in the SVK?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.  The post should have

 3     been occupied by an experienced officer who had performed all the duties

 4     I had performed who had adequate schooling.  That sort of personnel was

 5     not available in the army of the -- of the Republic of the Krajina.

 6             MR. SAXON:

 7        Q.   What about fuel?  Was the SVK dependant on the VJ for receiving

 8     adequate fuel supplies, if you know?

 9        A.   I already answered that question in the affirmative.  The

10     priority was to look for fuel and lubricants and to seek these from the

11     General Staff of VJ.

12             As far as the command and control was concerned, the SVK

13     Main Staff was independent of the General Staff of the FRY.

14        Q.   Okay.  Can a modern army operate in war without sufficient fuel?

15        A.   Well, of course, it cannot.

16        Q.   Where did the SVK get its laws and rules of service from?  Did it

17     draft all of them by itself?

18        A.   I don't know which laws and rules of service you have in mind.

19        Q.   Well, all right.  For example, the rules of service that you've

20     seen here today and on Thursday, the rules of service of security organs

21     in the armed forces of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

22     Were those rules of service then used in the SVK?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can accept the question as it

25     stands now.  It was the earlier question that was formulated differently

Page 6032

 1     which I had a problem with.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did I answer the question?

 3             MR. SAXON:

 4        Q.   No, I don't think you did -- yes, you should answer the question,

 5     please.

 6        A.   The rules and instructions of the administration -- of the

 7     Security Administration of the FRY were used by the security organs of

 8     the SVK.  We did not have our own instructions in the SVK.  All the

 9     instructions we used were the instructions of the Security Administration

10     of the General Staff of the army of the FRY.

11        Q.   Are you aware whether the RSK Law of Defence adopted provisions

12     of the Law of Defence of the FRY or the SFRY?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that this is too technical a

15     question for the witness.  I think Mr. Saxon should first ask the witness

16     whether he is familiar with the laws, whether he knows when the laws were

17     adopted and only then should he proceed to ask the witness to infer any

18     sort of a conclusion.  The question as put now I think is too demanding

19     of the witness.

20             MR. SAXON:  Well, Your Honour, my colleague discussed the RSK Law

21     of Defence with the witness during his cross-examination, so it would

22     appear to me that the Defence at least believes that the witness is

23     competent to deal with this law.  But I can rephrase my question, if

24     Your Honour so desires.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, how do you know what is in the mind of

Page 6033

 1     the witness?  Or how do you come to the conclusion that the question is

 2     too technical for the witness?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I proceeded in the

 4     following way.  I first showed the witness the laws and then asked him

 5     certain matters related to the command and control and to the fundamental

 6     principles underlying the army.  Those were my questions.

 7             Now, Mr. Saxon --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question is how do you know that the question

 9     is too technical for the witness?  Why can't the witness tell us if the

10     question is too technical for him and say, I can't answer that question

11     because it is too technical.

12             How do you know the mind of the witness?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I accept your guidance, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may put your question, Mr. Saxon.

15             MR. SAXON:

16        Q.   Do you know, Colonel, whether the RSK Law of Defence adopted

17     provisions from the Law of the Armed Forces of the SFRY or the Law of

18     Defence of the SFRY?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The questions I put to the witness

21     had to do with the Law of Governing the Army alone and not one of my

22     questions had to do with the Law on Defence.

23             MR. SAXON:  I will rephrase my question then to address the Law

24     of the Army.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do so, Mr. Saxon.

Page 6034

 1             MR. SAXON:  I'm sorry, I was under the misperception that it was

 2     the RSK Law of Defense.

 3        Q.   Do you know, Colonel, whether the law of the SVK, or the Law of

 4     the Army of the RSK adopted provisions from the Law of the Armed Forces

 5     of the SFRY or the Law of the Army of Yugoslavia?

 6             No, excuse me, I will rephrase my question.

 7             Do you know whether the Law of the SVK or the Law of the Army of

 8     the RSK adopted provisions from the Law of the Armed Forces of the SFRY?

 9        A.   I don't know about that.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MR. SAXON:  We can move this exhibit now, please.

12        Q.   Were the SVK officers who were assigned to the 40th Personnel

13     Centre dependant on the Army of Yugoslavia for their salaries?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I didn't put a single question about

16     salaries.  Can Mr. Saxon please reference the relevant portions.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, Mr. Saxon's argument was and still is

18     that you asked the witness whether the SVK was completely independent of

19     the VJ, and he is trying to show dependance of the SVK on the VJ.  He is

20     not talking about salaries per se.  He is talking about dependance, okay?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since I don't have the transcript in

22     front of me, if I remember correctly my question was whether the SVK,

23     under its organisation and structure, was a fully independent army.  I

24     think that I was very specific in the questions I put.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also don't have the transcript before me.  I do

Page 6035

 1     not remember you talking about structure and organisation, but I stand

 2     corrected.

 3             MR. SAXON:  May I proceed then?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If -- if I'm not sure whether we are able to

 5     ascertain -- to find out where -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... page 8,

 7     lines 4 through 6, if Mr. Saxon can give us some other reference, if he

 8     has one.  That was my question I gave you the reference for.

 9             MR. SAXON:  I have a different reference, Your Honour, and I

10     think the next reference which I was depending on and which I referred to

11     earlier puts a slightly different gloss on the issue.

12             At page 10 beginning at line 3, question was:

13             "The Serbian army of Krajina was a totally independent army, both

14     in its structure and organisation, and then independent from the Army of

15     Yugoslavia; correct?"

16             Answer was: "Correct."

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page 10.

18             MR. SAXON:  Page 10, Your Honour, starting at line 3.  And it's

19     that last part of the sentence that I am exploring and have I been

20     exploring with the witness.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then Mr. Lukic is right.  He was talking about

22     structure and organisation.  Whatever structure an organisation mean, I

23     don't know.

24             MR. SAXON:  Well, structure an organisation can refer to

25     personnel; it can refer to salaries and benefits; it can refer to laws

Page 6036

 1     which govern how an army was structured and organised.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

 3             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you will have noticed my

 5     earlier questions and the line where they were heading.  I was

 6     concentrating on the principles underlying an army and that was the

 7     question as I formulated it for this witness.  I was interested in the

 8     fundamental principles of an army.

 9             You will remember that the entire line of questioning had to do

10     with precisely those fundamental principles of the army.  The question

11     that was referenced here was also very specific.  I believe that

12     Mr. Saxon is touching upon topics that go well beyond the scope of my

13     cross-examination.  I took your guidance on board, but what is being

14     referred to here was not the subject of my cross-examination.

15             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, if Mr. Lukic had wanted to limit his

16     question, he could have stopped his question this way:  "The Serbian army

17     was Krajina -- the Serbian army of Krajina was a totally independent army

18     both in its structure and organisation."  He did not do that.  He then

19     continued, "independent from the Army of Yugoslavia."

20             Which is the critical point of that question, Your Honour, which

21     I should be allowed to explore and clarify on redirect.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon, then the objection is

23     overruled.

24             MR. SAXON:

25        Q.   Colonel Raseta, going back to my question, which was were the

Page 6037

 1     officers that were serving in the SVK who were assigned to the 40th

 2     Personnel Centre of the VJ, were they dependant on the Army of Yugoslavia

 3     for their salaries?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And, in fact, such officers received extra pay for serving in the

 6     SVK?

 7        A.   That's right.

 8        Q.   Were the SVK officers who were assigned to the 40th Personnel

 9     Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia dependant on the Army of Yugoslavia for

10     their retirement benefits?

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, I'll tell you, I have a little problem

13     with your re-examination.  It's re-hashing the examination-in-chief.

14     That's my only problem.  We've heard -- all these questions we have heard

15     before, they depended on the VJ for personnel, salaries, for fuel.

16     That's my only problem.

17             MR. SAXON:  I will leave this topic now, Your Honour.  I will

18     move on.

19        Q.   At page 17 of today's transcript, lines 14 to 16, you described

20     the relationship between you and General Dimitrijevic of the Security

21     Administration of the VJ General Staff, as a relationship of cooperation.

22             Do you recall that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   But there were at least certain areas where -- certain areas of

25     your work where you actually had a duty to communicate with

Page 6038

 1     General Dimitrijevic; is that right?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MR. SAXON:  If I can have the Court's indulgence for a moment

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MR. SAXON:  Okay.

 9        Q.   And, for example, these areas included communications related to

10     persons from the VJ, who were serving in the SVK, who might be subject to

11     operative processing?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Number one, the witness already

14     answered the question; and, number two, this is leading again.

15             MR. SAXON:  I will move on, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

17             MR. SAXON:

18        Q.   During cross-examination today, your testimony was that the

19     individuals who were absent without leave from the SVK were subjected to

20     proceedings and a request was sent to the General Staff of the VJ for

21     such individuals to be returned to the SVK.

22             Do you know -- are you aware of instances where this occurred?

23        A.   You mean am I aware of instances of individuals wilfully leaving

24     the ranks of the SVK and moving on to the FRY?  Do you know -- are you

25     referring to that category of officers?

Page 6039

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. SAXON:

 3        Q.   No, I'm referring to that --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that here, at page 25, line

 6     18, you can find the witness's answer to that question.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Thank you very much.

 8        Q.   You talked briefly during cross-examination about what happened

 9     after your first year in the SVK and your request to return to the

10     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

11             Why did you request to return to the VJ after that first year?

12        A.   Because that is what the order stated; that's to say, the order

13     seconding me to the SVK for a period of up to a year.  Since the one-year

14     period was about to expire, I intended to submit an application for my

15     return to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

16        Q.   Okay.  During his cross-examination, you and my colleague,

17     Mr. Lukic, discussed the fact that eventually you -- when you were in the

18     SVK, while you were serving in the SVK, you were promoted to a higher

19     post within the SVK than the post that you had left in the VJ.

20             Do you recall that exchange?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   My question, then, is - if you know - after you received this

23     promotion, while you were serving in the SVK to a higher post, was your

24     personnel file in the 40th Personnel Centre amended to reflect that fact?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6040

 1        Q.   So, to use the terms of some of our documents, in your file in

 2     the 40th Personnel Centre, did you receive a higher establishment post?

 3        A.   I received a higher level duty and a higher post, yes.  Of

 4     course.

 5        Q.   And commensurate with that, did you begin to receive a higher

 6     salary while you were still serving in the SVK?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. SAXON:  May I have the Court's indulgence for one moment,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do, sir.

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness Exhibit P2336.

13             And can we scroll down in the English version, please.

14        Q.   You'll recall, I believe you mentioned on cross-examination that

15     you had tried to check, as you put it, why the order to shell the Sisak

16     refinery was not carried out.

17             Do you recall that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And, indeed, it was your belief that the -- that Colonel Gacic

20     had not carried out the order of General Celeketic; right?

21        A.   That's right.

22             MR. SAXON:  Can we show the witness, please, document

23     ID 0639-8938.

24             If we can just take a look at the first page, please, that the

25     head line and underneath the head line.

Page 6041

 1        Q.   This is a newspaper called "Vjesnik, Croatian Political Daily."

 2     Dated Zagreb, Tuesday, 2nd of May, 1995.

 3             Are you following me?

 4             MR. SAXON:  Perhaps we could zoom in on the B/C/S on the date,

 5     please.  It's very small.

 6        Q.   Can you see that now?

 7        A.   It is not very legible.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Can we zoom in more on the date, please.  A bit more.

 9        Q.   Can you read it now?

10        A.   I can read "Zagreb," but I cannot figure out the rest.

11        Q.   How about if I give you a hard copy of this article.  Would that

12     help you perhaps, if it's a better copy?

13             MR. SAXON:  Could the usher please assist me, please.  This is a

14     hard copy of the same page.  Can we show it to the Defence, please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ma'am, can you show it to the Defence, please.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I have two problems with this

17     document, Your Honours.  This document was not on the 65 ter list, as my

18     associates inform me; and, on the other hand, I really can't see -- of

19     course, Mr. Saxon hasn't asked the question yet.  But I don't see and I

20     would call him -- call upon him to tell us which portion of my

21     cross-examination he is linking up to.  I don't see how this document is

22     in any way linked to my cross-examination.

23             And this is the first time that I see this document.

24             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

Page 6042

 1             MR. SAXON:  Let me take the second point first.  This -- during

 2     cross-examination, my colleague showed the witness both a paragraph from

 3     his statement, which -- and asked him questions related to the fact

 4     whether this particular order to shell Sisak was carried out; and he also

 5     showed the witness an exhibit which we have just seen, 2336, and the

 6     witness talked about part of the purpose of his work in getting this

 7     order was to find out why the order to shell Sisak -- shell the Sisak

 8     refinery was not carried out.

 9             So, if I can, this document deals with the events at Sisak,

10     Your Honour, which -- and I would like to explore that with the witness.

11     It's true this was not op our 65 ter list, but I could not anticipate the

12     line of cross-examination, yeah, from my colleague.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Please speak into the microphone.  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a problem with this because I

16     still think that my portion -- I still have a problem with this position

17     of Mr. Saxon's because it is my claim that the topic that I touched upon

18     in cross-examination, referring to Sisak and not the shelling of Sisak

19     itself, and Mr. Saxon had opportunity in his examination-in-chief to ask

20     questions about this.

21             Now, if you recall my questions had to do with the chain of

22     command and who received what information.  My cross-examination, with

23     regard to his report to General Mrksic of the 26th of May had exclusively

24     to do with whom the report was sent to and whether it had been sent to

25     someone from the Army of Yugoslavia.  And if Mr. Saxon wants to touch

Page 6043

 1     upon those topics by using this document that can then arise from my

 2     cross-examination, but, otherwise, no.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I want to clarify a topic that the

 4     witness raised in response to questions posed by counsel during his

 5     cross-examination, and I can't think of a more basic purpose of redirect

 6     examination.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the trouble is we don't know what topic you

 8     want to clarify, number one.  Number two, I'm sitting here and wondering

 9     if that topic arose out of a discussion of an order within an army how

10     that gets clarified by a newspaper.  This is my -- I'm just wondering --

11     I mean, what does the newspaper got to do with what is happening inside

12     the army?

13             MR. SAXON:  The newspaper has to do with whether a particular

14     event occurred or not, Your Honour, which is directly related to --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But your colleague says he never concerned himself

16     with whether or not an event occurred.  All he concerned himself with was

17     to whom that report was made.

18             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.  But the witness concerned himself

19     with that point, whether the event occurred or not.  That is my point.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, there you are, Mr. Lukic.  He says the

21     witness did refer to an event that occurred.

22             MR. SAXON:  Or did not occur.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Or did not occur.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Bear with me a moment, Your Honours.

25             The only thing that I can find, Your Honour, about this document

Page 6044

 1     was on page 42, line 10, where the witness discusses and says that he

 2     doesn't know the date of -- of this event.  And I think that Mr. Saxon is

 3     now here seeking to obtain answers to the questions that he failed to

 4     pose during his examination-in-chief.  This is not something that was

 5     included in any of the answers of the witness that now need to be

 6     clarified.

 7             Re-examination -- the purpose of re-examination is to clarify

 8     issues that arise from cross-examination and the questions that the

 9     Prosecutor asked had nothing to do with the cross-examination, and the

10     Prosecutor is now seeking to re-examine this witness in

11     examination-in-chief.

12             MR. SAXON:  Well, actually, Your Honour, I misspoke a moment ago

13     because I said that this topic arose from a response from the witness.

14     That was incorrect.  The topic arose from a question of my colleague.

15             If you take a look at page 42, lines 14 to 17.

16             "Q.  And my understanding as to the contents of this document is

17     that you, that it is to be checked why the order that was issued by

18     General Celeketic, the order to shell the Sisak refinery, why it was not

19     carried out; is that right?

20             "A.  Yes."

21             I want to explore that, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, I understand that.  And as I say, are you

23     not able to explore that using that order or using his knowledge?  Are we

24     now going to -- I'm not quite sure how this newspaper comes into it.

25             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, the next page of this newspaper

Page 6045

 1     addresses the matter that was raised in this question, and that is what I

 2     want to explore with the witness.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And why is that matter not raised in the documents

 4     of the army?  Why do we now go out of the documents of the army to find

 5     out what happened in the army from a newspaper?

 6             Any way we don't know the question.  Just go ahead and everybody

 7     will be listening to what you are going to be asking.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Very well, Your Honour.

 9             Can the usher please show the witness the hard copy of the

10     document to see if he can read the date, please.

11        Q.   Can you read the date now?

12        A.   The 2nd of May, 1995.

13        Q.   All right.

14        A.   [No interpretation]

15             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to the next page, please, in both

16     languages.

17             And it's very difficult to read.  Can -- there is an paragraph in

18     the third column.  Can we focus or zoom in on the third column, please.

19        Q.   Are you able to read -- I cannot read that first word.  It looks

20     like "nirim."

21             Are you able to read that paragraph or where that bullet point is

22     there, Colonel?

23        A.   I'm unable to.  It's really illegible.

24        Q.   Okay.  Are you --

25             MR. SAXON:  Can we zoom in any more on that bullet point on that

Page 6046

 1     column?

 2        Q.   Do you see the word "Sisak" there?

 3        A.   "The town of Sisak."

 4        Q.   Are you able to read about what it says about the town of Sisak?

 5        A.   It is really illegible.

 6        Q.   How about now?

 7        A.    "The town of Sisak is ..."

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: "Or was."

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the rest is completely

10     illegible.

11             MR. SAXON:

12        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

13             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, and I see the time.  I have no further

14     questions.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I have one or two questions for

19     the witness.  I hope it won't be too long.

20             I too -- make it short.  If I understood you correctly, when you

21     were asked to go to the SVK, you didn't do it on a voluntary basis; it

22     was not your idea to go.

23        A.   [No interpretation]

24             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Were you forced to go or did you

25     just obey your orders?

Page 6047

 1        A.   I simply obeyed the order that I was issued.

 2             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  I have another

 3     question for you.

 4             Do you know what is the percentage of officer of the Serb army

 5     that went to the -- to the SVK.  So the VJ officer what is the percentage

 6     of VJ officers who is went to the SVK?

 7        A.   I do not have any knowledge of that percentage.

 8             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] What I would like to know is not

 9     the percentage of the officers of the VJ who went to the SVK, but I would

10     like to know what is the percentage of the VJ officers serving in the

11     SVK, with respect to the amount of officers in general.  In other words,

12     amongst the SVK officers there were 50 percent of officers compared to

13     the VJ, 60 percent, more or less?

14        A.   Well, it's a bit difficult to give you an answer to that.  But

15     mainly what I can say is that most key positions were occupied by

16     officers from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and I mean command

17     posts.

18             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  I have another

19     question for you, and I hope that we can be brief.

20             You said that there was a good cooperation between your services

21     within the RSK and the VJ, right, which explains the reports.  This is

22     why you were sending your reports to the VJ.  Was it also the same the

23     other way around?  Would you receive regularly VJ reports?

24        A.   No, I did not.

25             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So it was not really -- it did not

Page 6048

 1     really go both ways.  It was not really good cooperation.

 2        A.   If you mean orders, I did not receive such documents.  But if you

 3     mean exchange of information, I did receive that.  So I did not receive

 4     orders, but from time to time, we exchanged information.

 5             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] No.  But what I wanted to know is,

 6     did you receive or would you receive reports from the VJ on the military

 7     situation, for instance, in the former Yugoslavia?

 8        A.   No, I did not.

 9             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You were sending reports, and did

10     you also get reports from the Serb Republic of Bosnia?

11        A.   I've already answered that question.  Very seldom; almost not at

12     all.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very well.  That's all.  Thank you very much.  I

14     have no further questions for you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you going to have any questions arising,

17     Mr. Saxon.

18             MR. SAXON:  No, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you, Mr. Lukic?

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one.

21                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Raseta, the Honourable Judge Picard asked

23     you about exchange of information.  When you contacted Mr. Dimitrijevic

24     did you receive from him some information as to what the positions of the

25     political leadership of Yugoslavia was -- were, with reference to what

Page 6049

 1     their positions and their opinions were in connection with the situation

 2     in Serbian Krajina?

 3        A.   Well, maybe there were some mention of them but not officially.

 4     Maybe we did exchange information just unofficially, but -- but through

 5     reports, no.

 6        Q.   Well, I mean in your being counterparts and when you had direct

 7     communications, did he sometimes relay information that was relevant to

 8     you of intelligence interests?

 9        A.   Well, yes, sometimes that would happen, but it was not -- they

10     were not orders.  They were really exchanges of operative information in

11     the sense of exchange of information.

12        Q.   In the sense of cooperation?

13        A.   Yes, cooperation.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just apologise to everybody for having gone

18     beyond the time.  Just trying to get done with the witness.

19             Thank you, sir.  That brings us to the end of your testimony.

20     You are now excused.  You may stand down and please travel well back

21     home, and thank you so much for coming to testify.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Due to the lateness of the hour, the Chamber

25     stands adjourn until tomorrow, 2.00 in the afternoon, in Courtroom I --

Page 6050

 1     I'm told Courtroom II, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

 2             Court adjourned.

 3                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of May,

 5                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.