Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6051

 1                           Tuesday, 12 May 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

12             Could we have appearances for the day, starting with the

13     Prosecution, please.

14             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon, April Carter,

15     and Ms. Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             And for the Defence.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and to

19     everyone in and around the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic is today represented

20     by Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec, Daniela Tasic, Gregor Guy-Smith, and

21     Novak Lukic.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.

23             Mr. Saxon.

24             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, Ms. Carter will call the next witness.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, good afternoon.

Page 6052

 1             MS. CARTER:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  The Prosecution calls

 2     Witness Milomir Kovacevic.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, sir.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you please make the declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You may be seated.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Madam Carter.

14             MS. CARTER:  May it please the Court.

15                           WITNESS:  MILOMIR KOVACEVIC

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                           Examination by Ms. Carter:

18        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, would you please introduce yourself to the Court.

19        A.   Milomir Kovacevic.

20        Q.   Can you please briefly describe for the Court your work

21     background.

22        A.   I was born in 1963 in Brekovo, Arilje municipality.  I completed

23     my primary school in Ruma and my secondary school in Zemun, Belgrade.  I

24     served the Yugoslav People's Army between the 6th of October, 1982 and

25     1983, in Capljina.

Page 6053

 1             Having served my military service I worked in Rumatrans until

 2     1988 when I transferred to department store company as a truck driver.

 3     When I left the JNA service, I was assigned to the reserve forces of the

 4     JNA, based on my wartime assignment.

 5             The situation and the events that transpired in the Socialist

 6     Federal Serbian Republic of Yugoslavia happened at the time when I was a

 7     truck driver for the department store company, and as soon as I received

 8     the summons I reported to my wartime unit in 1991.  My service followed

 9     there from, on the basis of my wartime assignment, and later on I was

10     transferred to the reserve forces of the MUP of Serbia.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down, sir.  Speak a little -- slowly.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MS. CARTER:

14        Q.   I'd like to highlight specifically, how were you employed in 1994

15     and 1995?

16        A.   In 1994, in -- or, rather, in earlier January 1992, or in the

17     month of December, I was transferred from the reserve forces of the JNA

18     to the reserve forces of the MUP of Serbia; to be specific, to the police

19     brigade of the MUP of Serbia.

20             However, I remained employed with the department store company in

21     Belgrade.  I would merely respond to all the calls from the MUP of Serbia

22     whenever they needed to engage me.

23             In late 1993 and early 1994 I was engaged as a member of the

24     reserve forces of the MUP of Serbia.  I was a member of a wartime unit in

25     Gorazde.  This part of my service lasted until the 14th of January, 1994,

Page 6054

 1     when my unit retreated from Gorazde.  Thereafter I was engaged at various

 2     check-points around Belgrade, as a member of the Serbian MUP.  This took

 3     place for fixed period depending on the assignments given by the MUP of

 4     Serbia.  When necessary I was also used as a driver for the purposes of

 5     the MUP of Serbia and of the army of Yugoslavia at the time.

 6        Q.   Now, you indicated that your service with the MUP ended on

 7     14 January, 1994.  Is it after that time that you became a driver for

 8     other activities for the MUP of Serbia and the army of Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   You misunderstood what I said.

10             On the 14th of January, 1994, I came back to Belgrade from the

11     field work in Gorazde.  I was then hired as a member of the MUP of

12     Serbia, manning check-points around Belgrade, and, when necessary,

13     working as a driver for the purposes of the MUP.  Therefore, I continued

14     being a member of the MUP of Serbia.

15        Q.   How long were you responsible for driving trucks?

16        A.   This happened between January 1994, until the 4th of August,

17     1995.

18        Q.   What took place on the 4th of August, 1995?

19        A.   On the 4th of August, 1995, to the best of my recollection, it

20     was a Saturday.  And I happened to be with my truck in a town called

21     Mrkonjic Grad.  The day before I had delivered goods to that town, and on

22     that day, the 4th of August, the goods were unloaded from the truck.  I

23     spent the night there.

24             On the morning of the 5th of August, 1995, news reached us of the

25     Croatian army having attacked the Knin Krajina.  It was in the course of

Page 6055

 1     the afternoon that the first refugees from the Knin Krajina started

 2     arriving.

 3             Thus, I stayed back in Knin -- or, rather, not in Knin, in

 4     Mrkonjic Grad because I was unable to work my way toward Banja Luka and

 5     our frontier since all the roads were blocked by the refugees retreating

 6     in the direction of Serbia.

 7        Q.   Let me be more precise in my question.

 8             What stopped you from working after the 4th of August, 1995, in

 9     your capacity as a truck driver?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But he hasn't said he stopped working.

11             MS. CARTER:

12        Q.   Sir, when did you stop working as a truck driver?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He hasn't said he stopped working.

14             MS. CARTER:

15        Q.   Sir, how long did you work as a truck driver?

16        A.   For the purposes of the MUP of Serbia, I worked from the 20th of

17     January, 1994, and the last trip I did was on the 4th of August, 1995.

18             I came back to Serbia from that particular trip only in

19     September, due to the border having been closed on account of the in-flow

20     of refugees.  So it was only in early September 1995 that I managed to

21     reach Serbia.

22             On my arrival, I returned my uniform and side-arms, and I was

23     assigned to civilian duties.

24        Q.   I would like to focus on the years of 1994 and 1995.

25             What options did truck drivers have in regards to work during

Page 6056

 1     those years?

 2        A.   In fact, I was a member of the reserve forces of the MUP of

 3     Serbia.  Since I was a professional driver, I was assigned to the duties

 4     of driver of trailer trucks.

 5             Previously, civilian trucks from civilian companies, be it

 6     private or socially owned, had been requisitioned for the purposes of the

 7     army of Yugoslavia and the MUP of Serbia.

 8        Q.   Now you indicate that civilian trucks from civilian companies had

 9     been taken in for the purposes of the army of Yugoslavia and the MUP of

10     Serbia.  Were civilian trucks allowed to be on the road for any other

11     reasons?

12        A.   The trucks that were requisitioned for the purposes MUP of Serbia

13     could travel only on the basis of a travel order received from the

14     command of the army of Yugoslavia and the MUP of Serbia.  And while they

15     were officially used for the purposes of either the VJ or the MUP, they

16     could not be otherwise utilized.

17        Q.   What purposes were the VJ and the MUP using trucks?

18        A.   The army of Yugoslavia and the MUP of Serbia used trucks to

19     secure supplies for the units in the field, to transport goods for the

20     Republika Srpska and the Serbian Republic of Serbian Krajina to therefore

21     bring in supplies of foodstuffs, fuel, petroleum, ammunition, mines and

22     explosives.  The trucks did whatever -- or transported whatever was

23     required by the MUP or the VJ.  The driver would simply carry out the

24     task he had been given.

25        Q.   I'd like to first focus on the transport of fuel.

Page 6057

 1             Were you a part of these types of transportation?

 2        A.   Yes, I was.

 3        Q.   How often were you a part of this type of transportation?

 4        A.   It so happened that certain -- or, rather, convoys would travel

 5     once a week, or twice, depending on the orders received, and on the needs

 6     that arose.

 7        Q.   Okay.  How often were you personally part of this transportation?

 8        A.   Most often, every other week a convoy would depart.  Depending on

 9     the situation, a convoy could also have travelled once a week.

10        Q.   Are you indicating that you personally served on these convoys

11     every other week, or, at times, once a week?

12        A.   Yes.  Sometimes I would travel every week; and sometimes every

13     other week.

14        Q.   Now, you indicated that when you were working in this role that

15     you transported whatever was required by the MUP of the VJ and that the

16     driver would simply carry out the task he was given.

17             I'd like to explore a bit with you the process in which you

18     carried out those tasks.

19             How did you first receive such an order or request?

20        A.   Since I had been assigned to a police brigade, pursuant to the

21     orders of my company commander, I was a part of a company within a

22     brigade, on the basis of the order, my first transport was to be with

23     just a regular trailer truck.  I was supposed to go to Kragujevac, to

24     Zastava the special purpose manufacturing company and that I would be

25     given goods to load right there on the spot.

Page 6058

 1             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I would ask the leave of the Court.

 2     I'm having difficulty with my knee, and I would ask for the leave of

 3     Court.  Can I please take this examination from a seated position.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, ma'am.

 5             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You should have mentioned that at the beginning.

 7     We would have arranged for that.

 8             We're sorry about it.

 9             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour, I appreciate it very much.

10        Q.   Sir, you had indicated that you were transporting goods.  I I'd

11     like to first focus on the fuel that you had mentioned at the -- earlier

12     in your testimony.

13             Can you please describe the process in which you -- you were

14     responsible for transporting fuel?

15        A.   The first job of work, the first trip of fuel, took place, if I'm

16     not mistaken, in the month of March 1994.  I received orders from my

17     superior to report to the Borovica Transport Company, in the --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name of the

19     place.

20        A.   {Previous translation continues]... where I would be assigned a

21     truck that had been requisitioned for the purposes of the MUP of Serbia.

22     As I reached Ruma where the company was --

23        Q.   Sir, if I can just interrupt you for just a moment.  You were

24     indicating a place name, specifically that you received orders to report

25     to the Borovic Transport Company.  Can you please tell the Court where

Page 6059

 1     that was located.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Where was that located?

 4        A.   I received orders in my unit and the Borovica Transport Company

 5     was in the town of Ruma which is 54 kilometres away from Belgrade.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Then you began to tell us for a truck that would be

 7     requisitioned for the MUP of Serbia.  And you ended your statement with,

 8     "as I reached Ruma where the company was ..."  Can you please move from

 9     there and describe the process.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that my learned friend

12     Ms. Carter has now misstated his testimony.  He was speaking about goods

13     that he was transporting; whereas, Ms. Carter now mentioned fuel.  He did

14     not get to that point or state anything about fuel.

15             Perhaps the question should be formulated in more precise terms,

16     if we're talking about Borovica Transport Company and Ruma, we should

17     specify how the vehicle belonged to.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, at page 8, line 8, Madam Carter said:

19             "Sir, you had indicated that you were transporting goods.  I

20     would like to first focus on the fuel that you had mentioned at the --

21     earlier in your testimony.  Can you please describe the process in which

22     you were responsible for transporting fuel."

23             So the discussion is around fuel.

24             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

Page 6060

 1             MS. CARTER:

 2        Q.   Sir, you indicated that you picked up your truck.  Then can you

 3     please tell what you did from there, when transporting fuel.

 4        A.   As I arrived in Ruma, and in the Borovica Transport Company

 5     itself, I reported to the individuals that I had been indicated as

 6     contact persons by my superiors.  I reported to that particular

 7     individual on the parking lot outside the company.  The individual took

 8     me over to the truck that I was supposed to sign for, and I did sign for

 9     that particular truck.  It was Mercedes 1735, the make, and the fuel tank

10     had the capacity of some 26 to 27.000 litres.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir, for that detail.

12             Who were you supposed to be transporting -- excuse me, where were

13     you supposed to transport fuel from?

14        A.   As I took over the truck, I drove it back to my unit, i.e., the

15     police brigade, which was stationed in what was formerly the JNA barracks

16     on Volgina Street at Zvezdara.  In the morning I received orders to take

17     the cistern truck, the tank truck and to take it to the refinery at

18     Pancevo.

19        Q.   Sir, you indicated that you went back to your unit that was at

20     the JNA barracks.  Can you tell us, what country were the JNA barracks

21     located in?

22        A.   That was formally JNA barracks that had been given to the MUP to

23     use it on Volgina Street at Zvezdara in the town of Belgrade, which was

24     at the time in Federal Serbian Republic of Yugoslavia.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And you indicated that you were transporting the fuel

Page 6061

 1     to the Pancevo area.  Can you please tell me, where is that located?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 3        A.   I did not transport --

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think we have a problem in

 5     transcript.  The witness said in -- on page 10, line 17, he said that the

 6     VJ had given the barracks to the MUP for its purposes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  So-and-so.  What's the problem, sir?  What

 8     is the problem now with the transcript?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The transcript did not reflect that

10     the barracks had been given to the MUP or deferred to the MUP by the VJ.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... line 17.  It

12     says, sir, that, "that was formally JNA barracks that had been given to

13     the MUP to use it on," and then names of streets are mentioned which

14     couldn't be caught.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But it does not follow from is --

16     from what is reflected in the transcript, that it was the army that gave

17     the barracks to the MUP.  And I felt that that was very important.  It is

18     for me.  That it was given by the VJ.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If it is not clear from that, okay, you have

20     clarified it now.  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.

21             Yes, Ms. Carter.  Sorry about that.

22             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Sir, you indicated that you received orders to take the tank

24     truck to the refinery at Pancevo.  Can you please tell me where the

25     refinery at Pancevo was located?

Page 6062

 1        A.   The Pancevo refinery is roughly 14 to 15 kilometres away from

 2     Belgrade.  It is situated along the Belgrade-Pancevo-Vrsac road.

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.  At any point of time -- for what purpose was the

 4     fuel being taken to Pancevo?

 5        A.   The fuel wasn't being taken to Pancevo.  Rather, I went to

 6     Pancevo in order to fill up a derivative that I was supposed to do, as

 7     ordered, so I went to the refinery at Pancevo for that reason.  So I went

 8     to Pancevo from Belgrade with an empty tank.

 9        Q.   Okay.  When you were in Pancevo, did you fill that tank?

10        A.   Yes.  When I arrived in Pancevo, and I can't recall exactly when

11     that was, I had to wait for a while, and the order that had already been

12     issued to the refinery in Pancevo, which derivative to pour into the

13     cistern or the tank.  When I arrived there, I received the order, the --

14     a company of the order, and I went to the pump where that derivative was

15     filled up.

16        Q.   Who issued that order?

17        A.   I cannot say that for sure.  I don't know who issued it, because

18     it had already been there when I arrived.  It had been ready.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm just a little confused.  We are talking now

21     you filling up a tank in Pancevo.  I don't remember, and I may be

22     mistaken, I don't remember hearing what became of the fuel you collected

23     from Borovic Transport Company.  Where was that delivered, sir?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that there was a

25     misunderstanding.

Page 6063

 1             I picked up an empty truck, fuel truck Borovica in Ruma, and with

 2     that truck, empty truck I came to my unit, to the barracks.  So there was

 3     no fuel in the truck.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And then you go to the barracks.  And what

 5     happened at the barracks?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived at the barracks I

 7     reported to the duty service of the Serbian MUP that I had returned from

 8     my assignment.  They told me to park the truck in a designated area, and

 9     I handed over the keys to the duty service and went home.  In the morning

10     when I got back to work at 6.00, I received the order to go to the

11     Pancevo refinery, where an order was waiting for me as to what was to be

12     loaded or filled in the truck.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  I'm sorry about that, but I

14     just didn't have that link.

15             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Sir, once you filled your tank in Pancevo, what happened next?

17        A.   When the fuel was filled up, when the tank was filled up, and the

18     order for that had already been sent to the refinery office in Pancevo,

19     when I -- on my way to Pancevo, namely, I was told at the unit that once

20     I filled up the truck I should go back to my units in Volga Street.

21        Q.   What type of order did you receive once you returned to your unit

22     at Volga Street?

23        A.   When I returned to my unit, I parked the truck in a designated

24     area.  I went back to -- I went to the duty service with the papers, and

25     handed the papers over.  And the duty officer told me that I could go

Page 6064

 1     home and that I should report in the morning to my unit, where I will get

 2     a further -- further instructions as to what I was to do next.

 3        Q.   What were your instructions?

 4        A.   When I came to the unit in the morning, and I think it was around

 5     7.00, when I went to work, I considered this to be my work because this

 6     was my wartime assignment, my wartime duty, and this was my daily duty

 7     that I had to report for.

 8             So I went to my unit.  I reported.  And I was told to wait,

 9     pending an order.

10             I went to the cafeteria there, had a cup of coffee.  I can't

11     recall exactly what time it was when a police officer came, and told me

12     to report to the duty service, to the duty officer.

13        Q.   Once you reported to that duty officer, what type of assignment

14     were you given?

15        A.   The duty officer told me that the fuel -- the fuel, petroleum

16     products had to be shipped to the territory of Republika Srpska and that

17     the convoy was organised to transport this petroleum product.  He told me

18     to prepare a truck, to check how much fuel I had in my own tanks, my

19     truck tanks and to take a travel papers and to await for further

20     instructions.

21             I did that, reported to the duty service again.  I said that I

22     had enough fuel in my tanks, that my tank was currently full.  He told me

23     to go to the cafeteria and wait for a while and that in about an hour or

24     two I will get further instructions.

25        Q.   Did you receive further instructions?

Page 6065

 1        A.   I received further instructions, to the effect that I was to

 2     leave at around 6.00 or 7.00 p.m. and take my truck to Sremska Mitrovica

 3     to the Srem Motel which was on the Belgrade-Zagreb highway near Sremska

 4     Mitrovica.

 5        Q.   When you arrived at the motel what did you do next?

 6        A.   I did not arrive at hotel Srem.  I parked in the parking lot

 7     outside the hotel Srem, and there were some other truck there, fuel

 8     trucks and also freight trucks and so on.

 9        Q.   How many trucks were there?

10        A.   I cannot recall exactly what the number of trucks was then, at

11     the time.  But as I sit here now, I think there were about 10 to 15

12     trucks there.

13        Q.   Were the other trucks MUP as well?

14        A.   No, they were not all MUP trucks.  When I arrived at the parking

15     lot, the trucks were already parked there.  There were some trucks that

16     were used that were actually confiscated for the need of the army, that

17     were waiting there.  And there were also some trucks from my unit - I

18     think there were three trucks from my unit - two fuel trucks and one

19     freight truck with a tarpaulin.

20        Q.   Who were responsible for driving these 10 to 15 trucks?

21        A.   Well, I cannot really say that.  I can't tell you who was

22     responsible for those 10 to 15 drivers.  We were all in civilian clothes.

23     No one wore any uniform, so I couldn't really tell who was a driver of

24     the Yugoslav army and which driver belonged to the Serbian MUP.

25        Q.   Now you are indicating that -- they didn't wear any uniforms but

Page 6066

 1     that they were Yugoslav army or Serbian MUP.  Why would you think that

 2     those would be the two types of drivers?

 3        A.   Well, I can say with certainty that there were three trucks from

 4     my unit, one of them was a freight truck and two fuel trucks.  Those were

 5     from my unit.

 6             Now, in a conversation with -- that I had with the other drivers,

 7     I concluded that they were working there for the need of the

 8     Yugoslav army, because their vehicles had been requisitioned by the army

 9     from various companies, just as the transport vehicle was -- from

10     transport company was requisitioned for the needs of the Serbian MUP.

11        Q.   How were the trucks marked?

12        A.   The only markings were the standard plates, and there was also a

13     white sheet of paper, a standard letter-sized paper, which had the word

14     "convoy" on it.  That was on the trucks.

15        Q.   Were any of the trucks -- could you tell that any of the trucks

16     were MUP or VJ, by looking at them from an outside observer?

17        A.   No, you couldn't tell that.  There was no way of knowing.

18     Besides, I can also say that, as a driver, as a member of the reserve

19     forces of the Serbian MUP, I had papers from travel documents or travel

20     orders from the MUP, and the other drivers had travel orders from the

21     units that they -- the trucks belonged to.

22             So that was the only way to find out, by checking the papers.

23     But just looking at the trucks you couldn't really tell.

24        Q.   What happened to those 10 to 15 trucks after the motel?

25        A.   When I arrived at the parking lot of the Srem motel in

Page 6067

 1     Sremska Mitrovica, the motel on the highway, the other trucks -- some of

 2     the other trucks were already there.  Maybe one or two trucks arrived

 3     after me.

 4             There were two transport vehicles of the Yugoslav army, or rather

 5     more specifically the MUP army, all terrain vehicles and --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters request that the witness

 7     repeat the last portion of his answer.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you are requested to repeat the last portion

 9     of your answer.  The interpreters didn't hear you properly.  Could you

10     please repeat yourself.  You just said, "There were two transport

11     vehicles of the Yugoslav army, or rather more specifically of the MUP

12     army, all terrain vehicles ..."

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there were two all terrain

14     vehicles of the Yugoslav army.  They were standard vehicles.  They bore

15     the plates of the Yugoslav army.  And there were four vehicles of the

16     Serbian MUP, MUP of the Republic of Serbia, bearing their marks.

17             And there were uniformed men sitting in these vehicles, the MUP

18     vehicles.  The men who sat in the MUP vehicles were police officers; and

19     in the military vehicles, there were some soldiers.  And there were -- if

20     I recall there was an officer and maybe a non-commissioned officer at

21     that point in time, but I'm not absolutely certain.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What actually happened to the 10 or 15 trucks that

23     you were with at the Srem hotel, sir?  I think that question hasn't been

24     answered here.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, when we got there, we remained

Page 6068

 1     there --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 3             THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... in the parking

 4     lot for about -- we remained there till about 11.00 or 12.00, 11.00 p.m.

 5     or 12.00.  After that we formed a convoy, a column of trucks.  There was

 6     an official MUP vehicle driving in front of us; we followed it.  And

 7     after three or four trucks there would be a military vehicle or a MUP

 8     vehicle, so that they escorted us along the highway towards Zagreb.  We

 9     got off the ramp for Kuzmin and Sid, the exits for Kuzmin and Sid.  We

10     drove along the official highway that led to the border crossing from

11     Yugoslavia towards Bosnia, towards Sremska Racma [as interpreted].  So

12     there was a road that went from Kuzmin, Bosa village, and Raca.

13             We drove along this road for some 5 or 6 kilometres, and then we

14     saw a MUP vehicle with the lights flashing.  They were on the right-hand

15     side of the road, and there was another vehicle on the left-hand side of

16     the road.  The barrier between the two lanes of the highway was removed

17     so that the trucks could take turns there.  And there we got off the

18     highway and onto a road that had been built and cut through the forest.

19     I can't remember if that was the Morovica or the Bosut wood.  And this

20     road was cut through that wood, and it was gravelled -- gravel was put

21     over it.  And we drove down this road, and we were told to shut the

22     lights off.

23             As we were getting off the highway onto this road, I noticed that

24     there was a large iron gate there, which was opened at the moment when we

25     got there.  And I noticed two soldiers who were standing near that gate,

Page 6069

 1     armed.

 2             MS. CARTER:

 3        Q.   You indicated there were two soldiers.  Can you tell me what type

 4     of soldier were they, for which government?

 5        A.   These were soldiers of the Yugoslav army.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And you also indicated that there was a -- this road was

 7     cut through the forest.  Are you aware who cut this road?

 8        A.   Well, I cannot say that with certainty.  That road had been cut

 9     with a big earth-moving machine, and it was gravelled.  But there was

10     also -- at the beginning of this road, there was this huge iron gate, and

11     there was a similar gate at the end of that road.

12        Q.   Who was responsible for securing this road?

13        A.   As I have already said, when we left Sremska Mitrovica up until

14     we got off and onto this road, we were escorted by a military and police

15     patrol.  The first vehicle that turned onto this other road was an all

16     terrain vehicle - a VJ vehicle - and it drove through the forest with the

17     lights off.

18        Q.   How far did you drive with the lights off?

19        A.   Well, I can't tell for certain how far this was.  This convoy

20     wasn't moving very fast; maybe 30 to 40 kilometres per hour.  We kept a

21     distance between the vehicles just in case there was a need to break

22     suddenly.  And I would say that this whole trip lasted about 30 to

23     40 minutes, up until we got onto the bridge reach Raca.  That's a bridge

24     crossing over the Sava river.

25        Q.   What occurred once you reached the bridge at Raca?

Page 6070

 1        A.   When we left the village, when we left Sremska Raca, once we

 2     cleared the forest we entered this village of Sremska Raca, and then we

 3     came to a road.  We took a turn for the bridge to the right, and then

 4     there was also a railway that we had to cross.  This was the

 5     Sid-Bijeljina railways.  So you had to cross the railway first, and then

 6     you would get onto the bridge and cross over the Sava river.

 7             The military -- all personnel -- all-terrain vehicles stopped

 8     there, and we -- they issued an order to us to cross over the bridge as

 9     soon as possible with our lights off.

10        Q.   Did you do so?

11        A.   Yes, we did, because we were told that from this bridge to the

12     official border crossing where the police of the Federal Republic of

13     Yugoslavia - or, rather, the Serbian MUP was, and also a post of the

14     customs services and the police.

15             At this time there were also monitors on border crossings in

16     Yugoslavia, monitors of the European Union, who checked all vehicles

17     leaving the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and going into Serbia and the

18     other way around.

19        Q.   Why were they checking these vehicles?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Leaving the

21     territory of the Republic of Yugoslavia into Bosnia and the other way

22     around.

23        A.   [Previous translation continues]... Now, I can't say for sure

24     why, but as far as I could hear from what the others were saying, these

25     European Union monitors were probably there pursuant to an agreement

Page 6071

 1     between -- an agreement with the Republic of Yugoslavia because at that

 2     time the sanctions were in place and certain goods could not be

 3     transported from Serbia into Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian

 4     Krajina.

 5             MS. CARTER:

 6        Q.   Did the European Union monitors check your vehicle?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Why not?

 9        A.   Well, I don't know why not.  I can't tell you that.  We received

10     our orders and acted on them.  All these other discussions, they must

11     have been made at a higher level, so I wouldn't know anything about that.

12     But I just know that our vehicle was not checked by the monitors.

13     Whereas I know that earlier, when I drove -- when I shipped some -- for

14     the Prehrana company when I shipped some medication and so on, we were

15     checked, our trucks were checked by the European Union monitors.  And

16     when they checked our vehicle they checked the entire vehicle, and then

17     would seal it -- they would place a seal of the European monitors, and

18     such trucks would then legally arrive at the border of the Republic of

19     Serbia.

20        Q.   In the case of this night-time convoy, what happened once you

21     reached or when you became near these check-points?

22        A.   Well, there were no check-points along these roads which we took.

23        Q.   Okay.  Can you please describe, then, how you crossed into

24     RS territory?

25        A.   As I already said, once we got off the highway and drove through

Page 6072

 1     the forest with no lights on, we also crossed the bridge with our lights

 2     off.  And when we crossed the bridge and into Republika Srpska, we were

 3     met there by the police and the army of Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   When they met you, what happened next?

 5        A.   Well, while we were crossing, they waited for us.  There was a

 6     vehicle driving in front of us.  I can't recall, I think it was a police

 7     vehicle.  And there was a vehicle of Republika Srpska also.  We crossed

 8     the border crossing of Republika Srpska where the police of

 9     Republika Srpska and the customs officer of Republika Srpska was.  There

10     were no controls.  We arrived in Dvorovi, that was close to Bijeljina.

11     And they were -- in our vehicles -- we parked our vehicles in the

12     Neskovic company parking lot.

13        Q.   From that company parking lot where did you take the fuel next?

14        A.   We stayed at this parking lot -- we arrived -- between 2.00 and

15     3.00 in the morning.  There were members of the army of Republika Srpska

16     and the police of Republika Srpska, and we stayed there for about -- till

17     about 6.00 or 7.00 a.m.

18             And then we were -- there we were issued orders as to where the

19     trucks were to go, each separately.

20        Q.   And where did your truck go?

21        A.   My truck went to Banja Luka, or, rather, to the Kozora barracks

22     of the Republika Srpska army.

23        Q.   Are you aware of where the other trucks went?

24        A.   One of my colleagues from the Serbian MUP who also had a fuel --

25     drove a fuel truck, he drove off to Brcko.

Page 6073

 1        Q.   And where is Brcko located?

 2        A.   Brcko is on the road to Bijeljina; it is about 60 kilometres from

 3     Bijeljina.

 4        Q.   Now you indicated that the route that you took through

 5     Sremska Raca.  Were there any other routes that you took on any other

 6     trip?

 7        A.   I went via Sremska Raca on a number of occasions, maybe 5 to

 8     6 times, and I also drove along another road between Mali Zvornik and

 9     Zvornik.

10        Q.   What road is this?

11        A.   Well, this road -- we went from Belgrade -- on the highway

12     Belgrade to Zagreb, and then we got off the road at the exit towards

13     Novi Sad and Sabac.  And from there to Loznica, Banja Koviljaca,

14     Mali Zvornik.  And then we crossed the official border crossing at the

15     Karakaj bridge and drove off towards Mali Zvornik where we got off onto

16     the road that went on to Ljubovija and Bajina Basta, where we then got

17     off into a quarry, that was actually a quarry in Mali Zvornik.

18        Q.   Which country is Mali Zvornik in?

19        A.   Mali Zvornik is in Serbia in the then Federal Republic of

20     Yugoslavia.  It was the -- the only thing between Mali Zvornik and

21     Zvornik was the river Drina.

22        Q.   When you crossed the Karakaj road, did you use the same

23     techniques in regards to concealing the trucks through turning off lights

24     and that type of thing?

25        A.   We did not use the official crossing across the bridge at the --

Page 6074

 1     at Karakaj.  We used the only Drina bridge which was closed for traffic,

 2     and there were no check-points and no controls there, either by the

 3     police of the Republic of Serbia or the police of the Serb -- of

 4     Republika Srpska.

 5             The trip also took some one to two hours, and the trips were made

 6     at night, as with the other route as well.

 7        Q.   Outside of the type of convoy that you're describing, are you

 8     aware of anybody else being able to use this bridge, this old bridge?

 9        A.   During the day, the bridge was used by pedestrians.

10        Q.   In the convoys that you participated in, you indicated that you

11     were carrying fuel.  Was fuel the only thing that was being transported

12     on those convoys?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   What else was being transported?

15        A.   Such convoys were also used to transport the goods that were not

16     allowed to go across the border.  There was a list of goods that were not

17     allowed across the border, which was kept by the European monitors.

18        Q.   What types of goods were not allowed to go across the border?

19        A.   If the European monitors allowed fuel to be transported, then it

20     would be, and only in cases where it was required for hospitals and

21     such-like.

22             Fuel was not allowed, ammunition, explosives, cement, cigarettes

23     and such-like.

24        Q.   Now, you indicated that such convoys were also used to transport

25     the goods that were not allowed to go across the border.  Are you

Page 6075

 1     indicating that the items that were also going across were ammunition,

 2     explosives, and that like?

 3        A.   Yes.  Ammunition, explosives, and similar items were also

 4     transported.

 5        Q.   Are you aware where that ammunition and explosives were coming

 6     from?

 7        A.   I can only speak for the instances where I was the driver.  I

 8     cannot make any assertions where other drivers were involved.  I can only

 9     talk about the instances where I drove the goods, and that I can speak

10     responsibly about.

11        Q.   Let's just focus on those.

12             Can you please tell me where you picked up ammunition and

13     explosives?

14        A.   There were instances where I loaded ammunition at the first

15     partisan company in Uzice.  There were instances where I loaded automatic

16     rifles and pistols at the specific purpose industry in Zastava in

17     Kragujevac.  There would be instances where I would also be loading

18     material and technical equipment for some depots.

19        Q.   Where were these locations located?  In which country?

20        A.   They were in Serbia.

21        Q.   And who -- who was responsible for the locations?

22        A.   I can't state who was responsible for the locations.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The question was not quite clear, as

25     it was formulated, and the witness himself said that he would be

Page 6076

 1     speculating.  I must admit, I didn't understand the question.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then the witness has told us he can't

 3     speculate.

 4             Shall we leave it there?

 5             You may proceed, ma'am.

 6             MS. CARTER:

 7        Q.   Sir, in regards to the instances where you said -- you indicated

 8     you loaded ammunition at the first partisan company.  Are you speculating

 9     about that, or are you aware that you loaded that ammunition?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How could that be speculation?

11             MS. CARTER:  I wasn't certain I understood Mr. Lukic's --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic said your question was speculative

13     because you asked who was responsible for that location.  That's where

14     the objection came.

15             MS. CARTER:  Okay.  Certainly, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Sir, what type of facility was the first partisan company?

17        A.   Prvi Partizan is a factory in Uzice which comprised several

18     manufacturing divisions, including an ammunition factory.

19        Q.   Who were they providing ammunition for?

20        A.   I can't claim with any certainty who it was they provided

21     ammunition for.  I was given orders to go to Prvi Partizan, and my duty

22     was to check what was being loaded onto the truck.  I had a specification

23     which clearly stated how many pallets of which type of items were to be

24     loaded.  I can't speak about who it was who ordered for the weapons or

25     ammunition to be loaded, where it was that the orders came, that the

Page 6077

 1     goods should be loaded for the purposes of Republika Srpska or the

 2     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Outside of the goods and the fuel that you transported

 4     across the border, were you responsible for transporting anything else?

 5        A.   It may have been the case that 6 to 7 times I would be

 6     transporting cigarettes.  That was -- that were then taken over by the

 7     Centreks company in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.

 8        Q.   Let's focus on the transport of April 1994.  What type of convoy,

 9     if any, were you responsible for in April of 1994?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Have we heard about the transport of April 1994

11     before?

12             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I'm trying to narrow him down to that

13     time-period.  He was indicating that he was already starting to

14     participate in that type of activity from March 1994 through August of

15     1995, so I'm trying to focus down to a specific time-period.

16        Q.   Sir, what type of work were you doing in April of 1994?

17        A.   In April of 1994, ever since I had started working and

18     participating in the convoys, the last convoy I took part was on the

19     2nd of August, and the goods were unloaded in Mrkonjic Grad on the 4th of

20     August, 1995.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  But, sir, I think you must listen to the

22     questions.

23             You are being asked about April 1994.  Now you're going to

24     August.  Can you tell us something about April 1994?  And don't tell us

25     about the last one in August.

Page 6078

 1             MS. CARTER:

 2        Q.   Sir, outside of tanker trucks what other type of vehicles did you

 3     drive across the border?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're abandoning your other question, madam.

 5             MS. CARTER:  I'm trying to focus the witness, Your Honour.

 6        A.   Save for tanker trucks, I drove trailer trucks or canvas or

 7     tarpaulin-covered trucks.  As I said, trailer trucks that had the

 8     capacity of 26 tons.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Sir, were you ever responsible for driving buses?

10        A.   It was once in March of 1994 that I was given the task from the

11     police brigade.

12        Q.   What task were you given in March of 1994?

13        A.   In March 1994, I was given an assignment from my unit to take a

14     bus.  We had normally three buses at our disposal within the unit, to

15     take the bus to the VJ barracks in Bubanj Potok.

16        Q.   Why were you taking the buses to the VJ barracks?

17        A.   I received orders to take the bus to the VJ barracks in

18     Bubanj Potok.  As I reached the barracks, I saw that there were several

19     buses there already.  It was in the barracks that I received further

20     instructions.

21        Q.   And what instructions were those?

22        A.   The instructions were that the personnel from the Bubanj Potok

23     barracks should be transported to the Republic of the Serbian Krajina,

24     specifically to Knin.  That was where I drove them.

25        Q.   Okay.  When you arrived at the barracks, you indicated that there

Page 6079

 1     were three buses at your disposal.  How many buses in total were there?

 2        A.   There were six or seven buses in all.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And the persons that you were set to transport, do you

 4     know who they were or what agency or organisation they belonged to?

 5        A.   The individuals who were supposed to be transported were

 6     able-bodied men, who had fled the territories of Republika Srpska and the

 7     Republic of Serbian Krajina, who had failed to respond to the call-ups

 8     from the armies of both the Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian

 9     Krajina, and who had found refuge in the territory of the Republic of

10     Serbia.

11        Q.   Outside of these person who fled, were anybody else on these

12     buses to be transported to Knin?

13        A.   What I can tell you with certainty is that there was this

14     individual with me who I knew earlier on from my civilian life.  My wife

15     hails from Backa Topola, and I knew a man called Tomasovic who worked in

16     the VJ barracks in Backa Topola.  Since he hailed -- or his origins were

17     in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, I don't know exactly how this

18     came about, but he was assigned to the army of the Republic of the

19     Serbian Krajina, in Knin, and he went along with me.

20             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, it is my understanding that it is time

21     for the break.  If this would be a convenient point.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is indeed, ma'am.

23             We will take a break and come back at 4.00.

24             Court adjourned.

25             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 6080

 1                           --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Carter.

 4             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Sir, before the break, you were indicating that some of the

 6     people that were awaiting the buses were individuals who had fled the

 7     territories of Republika Srpska and Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 8             Can you please tell me, if you know, how did they come to be at

 9     that VJ barracks?

10        A.   Upon the return from Gorazde, in January of 1994, I was assigned

11     for a while to man the check-point of the MUP of Serbia, which was on the

12     road from Belgrade in the direction of Susin, and its name was Kosa 4.  I

13     was assigned to that check-point, and had to carry out assignments given

14     to me, and the others, by the person in charge of that check-point and

15     his deputy.

16        Q.   Sir, how does that -- your work at the check-point relate to the

17     individuals that had fled the RS and RSK who were there at the VJ

18     barracks?

19        A.   There was a standing order at the check-point, whereby, pursuant

20     to a decree of the Republic of Serbia and the federal state, based on

21     which all the individuals who were not citizens of the FRY and had as

22     their place of residence, a town in Republika Srpska or the Republic the

23     Serbian Krajina, regardless of whether they hold the refugee status or

24     not, if they are able-bodied men, they should be detained on the spot and

25     taken to the nearest police station.  Alternatively, duty police patrol

Page 6081

 1     could be summoned, which would then take them from there.

 2        Q.   How did they find themselves from the nearest police station to

 3     the VJ barracks?

 4        A.   They weren't staying at the VJ barracks.  Those of us who manned

 5     check-points would stop such individuals and inform the police station

 6     that had the competence for that particular check-point, for instance,

 7     the Kosa 4 check-point had as its competent police station the one that

 8     was located in New Belgrade, Novi Belgrade.  In our case, therefore, we

 9     would be getting in touch with the police officers from the police

10     station at New Belgrade and tell them to come and pick up any such

11     individuals we found.

12        Q.   Once you arrived at the VJ barracks, how did those individuals

13     appear?  What type of clothing were they wearing?

14        A.   They wore the old uniforms; that's to say, the uniforms of the

15     former JNA; olive-grey uniforms.

16        Q.   What happened to them while they were there at the VJ barracks,

17     if anything?

18        A.   As far as I know, the persons who were detained were -- would

19     first be taken to our seat at Volgina, on Volgina Street, where they

20     would be subjected to medical checks, whereupon they would be transported

21     to Bubanj Potok.

22        Q.   What occurred at Bubanj Potok?

23        A.   When I was given the assignment to drive a group of these

24     individuals to Knin by bus, by the time I saw them, they were already in

25     uniform and armed.  What had happened previously, I don't know.  Were

Page 6082

 1     they undergoing training or something of the sort, I can't tell you that.

 2     My assignment was to take the bus to the barracks, and when I reached the

 3     barracks, they were already in uniform and had already -- and had already

 4     been issued with weapons.

 5        Q.   So you are indicating while they were on VJ barracks, they were

 6     issued with weapons?

 7        A.   Yes.  When I got there, they had already been issued with

 8     side-arms.

 9        Q.   Outside of these individuals who were wearing the old JNA

10     uniforms, were there anybody else, any other type of soldier present

11     there at the VJ barracks?

12        A.   Probably those were regular members of the army of Yugoslavia.  I

13     don't know whether among them there were volunteers who wanted to go

14     there of their own volition.  I don't know.  There were various stories

15     circulated.  I can only tell you what I personally saw.

16        Q.   Taking into account what you personally saw, why do you think

17     that some people were regularly -- regular members of the army of

18     Yugoslavia?

19        A.   The individuals who were going to the battlefield were not

20     regular members of the army of Yugoslavia.  Rather, from what I gleaned

21     among those present in the VJ barracks who stayed behind in the barracks,

22     were members of the army of Yugoslavia who were assigned there and

23     performed their regular duty there.

24        Q.   Okay.  Once the individuals were loaded onto buses, were there

25     only the members in the old JNA uniforms, or were there anybody else?

Page 6083

 1        A.   These persons wore JNA uniforms.  The only thing I can tell you

 2     with certainty is that there was this major there who belonged to the

 3     army of Yugoslavia, who I knew from before, who hailed from the area of

 4     the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  I don't know why he was there, whether

 5     it was on orders or of his own accord.  When I got there with my bus, he

 6     told me that he was going to the Republic of the Serbian Krajina for a

 7     period of one year.

 8        Q.   Are you aware what position this man held after that year in the

 9     Republic of Serbian Krajina?

10        A.   As far as I know, this individual, who I continued socializing

11     with, we were on visiting terms, he rejoined the army of Yugoslavia upon

12     his return.  He then went to join the army of Republika Srpska, spent

13     there some while.  He was in Trebinje, I believe.  Currently, he is a

14     retired colonel of the VJ.

15        Q.   Moving back --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.

17             Do we understand you clearly, sir.  This man went to the Republic

18     of Serbian Krajina for a year, joined the army there, came back to the

19     VJ, and then went to the Republika Srpska.  Is that what you are saying?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And when he went to the Republika Srpska, what did

22     he go and do there?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He served in the VRS garrison in

24     Trebinje.  He was with the army of the Republika Srpska.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please approach the

Page 6084

 1     microphones.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are being requested to get closer to the

 3     microphone when you speak, sir.

 4             Thank you, Madam Carter.  You may proceed.

 5             MS. CARTER:

 6        Q.   Moving back to the buses themselves.  What happened once you --

 7     you left the barracks?  Who came with you?

 8        A.   Major Tomasevic, the one I referred to, came along with me.  He

 9     was seated with me throughout that time, and there were others.  We

10     crossed the border in the same manner we did that in the convoy.  We went

11     through the wood, across the bridge, into the Republika Srpska, to a

12     place called Dvorovi.  There, the buses parted ways.  Each went their own

13     way.

14        Q.   Starting with the travel between Serbia and Republika Srpska, can

15     you please tell me, how were the buses marked?

16        A.   The bus I drove had police licence plates.  On our arrival in

17     Sremska Mitrovica, these plates were replaced by civilian plates.

18        Q.   What plate was yours changed to?

19        A.   I don't know which particular town the plate was marked with, but

20     it was a civilian plate.

21        Q.   Okay.  And you've indicated that your bus was en route to Knin.

22     How many other, if any, buses went to Knin with you?

23        A.   My bus and another bus.

24        Q.   What -- where did the other buses go?

25        A.   Some buses left the column near Bijeljina, went to Zvornik.  Some

Page 6085

 1     went with us, all the way to Banja Luka.  So I can't really know for

 2     sure.  But I know that some buses parted ways in Bijeljina, and some

 3     continued with me to Banja Luka.  And I also know that, in Prijedor,

 4     there was another bus that went another way.  And when we arrived there

 5     were only two buses.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where did you arrive?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived Knin, in the

 8     Republic of Serbian Krajina, the town of Knin.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, I think we are getting absolutely confused

10     here, and I would like both you and counsel to please be specific with

11     your questions and answers.

12             Madam Carter, if you look at page 33, line 9, you started this

13     discussion that we are now on by saying:

14             "Moving back to the buses themselves.  What happened once you

15     left the barracks?  Who came with you?"

16             He told you that this Major Tomasevic came with him.  They went

17     through the wood, crossed the bridge into Republika Srpska.  Now -- to a

18     place called Dvorovi.

19             Now, I'm not quite sure, is this en route to Knin, or is Dvorovi

20     the destination at that stage?

21             MS. CARTER:  Okay.

22        Q.   Sir, can you please describe the route that you took from the VJ

23     barracks to Knin.

24        A.   We left from the barracks in Bubanj Potok, drove on the highway,

25     the Belgrade-Zagreb highway that we had to take through Belgrade across

Page 6086

 1     the bridge, across the Sava.  Then we went to Ruma and Sremska Mitrovica.

 2     At Sremska Mitrovica the convoy was formed, and we continued on the same

 3     road towards Zagreb.  When we passed the Kuzmin and Sid exit, some 5 or 6

 4     kilometres after that exit where that forest road was, we got off the

 5     highway and we drove through the forest.  We crossed the bridge in the

 6     same way as we did before, without any lights on.  We were escorted by

 7     the police and the military.  We crossed the Sava bridge to the Bosnian

 8     side, to be more precise, to Republika Srpska.  The border crossing was

 9     at Bosanska Raca, that's the name of the place, and then from

10     Bosanska Raca on the way to Bijeljina we went to Dvorovi which was the

11     first bigger town on the way to Bijeljina.

12             After Bijeljina we went towards Brcko via the corridor that had

13     been cut through Semberija.  And from there we got on to the road

14     Bosanski Samac-Modrica.  I drove to Modrica.  At Modrica we crossed the

15     Bosna river.  And at a place called Bare, we got on a regional road from

16     Slavonski Brod to Bosanski Brod, towards Doboj and Zenica.  And from

17     there we split and went -- drove to Drventa - all the these territories

18     were under the control of Republika Srpska army - and from there we went

19     to Prnjavor and the place called Vlasnica where I took a left turn, went

20     through Trn, Zalozani.  And at Banja Luka, we went towards Prijedor,

21     Bosanski Novi, Martin Brod, and from there I drove to Knin.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MS. CARTER:

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, Knin, that is in the Serbian Krajina; is

25     that correct?

Page 6087

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And you said your bus, as well as some others, went into

 3     the RSK; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, and another bus.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And you had indicated that others had gone to

 6     Banja Luka.  Can you please tell me, where is Banja Luka?

 7        A.   Banja Luka is in Bosnia, or to be more precise, in

 8     Republika Srpska on the Vrbas river.  You can get do Banja Luka if you're

 9     travelling through Croatia via Bosanska Gradiska, this is the direct

10     route along the highway, Belgrade-Zagreb.  But you could also take the

11     route that was under the control of the Republika Srpska army, where they

12     were in control.  And as I explained, that was Drventa, Prnjavor,

13     Klasnice, Banja Luka, those were the places we went through.  And from

14     Banja Luka we went to Mrkonjic Grad, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc,

15     et cetera, Kotor Varos, and so on.

16        Q.   How many people were on each bus?

17        A.   My bus was full.  This was a SANOS 415 bus.  The capacity was 53

18     plus 2, meaning 53 people on the bus and the driver and the co-driver.

19        Q.   Were the other buses on this convoy full?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Outside of Vladimir Tomasevic, were there any other individuals

22     that were VJ officers?

23        A.   On my bus, as far as I could observe, maybe there was one --

24     maybe there were one or one non-commissioned officers wearing camouflage

25     uniforms.  All the others were wearing the old JNA uniforms.  And as far

Page 6088

 1     as I could observe, one of those had a staff-sergeant rank.  And the

 2     other one, I think, was -- had the rank of Warrant Officer.

 3        Q.   Were there any other individuals on any other bus that appeared

 4     to be commissioned or non-commissioned VJ officers?

 5        A.   Well, I cannot claim anything.  I can't claim that there were

 6     officers in other buses.  Each driver was responsible for his own bus.

 7             The only thing I can claim with certainty is that each bus had as

 8     escort either an officer or a non-commissioned officer of the

 9     Yugoslav army.

10        Q.   You indicated that some of these buses were MUP buses.  Who owned

11     the other buses?

12        A.   One or two buses had markings of the Yugoslav army; and I think

13     these were TAM buses, TAM 190.  And there were 3 or 4 buses from civilian

14     transport companies.

15        Q.   Okay.  Sir, I thank you for your answers.

16             MS. CARTER:  And I pass the witness.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Carter.

18             Mr. Lukic.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacevic, good afternoon.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   My name is Novak Lukic, and I will now put some questions to you

23     as Defence counsel as Mr. Perisic, and because you and I speak in the

24     same language, please slow down a bit when you answer the question and

25     make a short break, between my question and your answer so that the

Page 6089

 1     interpreters can interpret the entire answer.  And I will also try and

 2     make a pause between your answer and my question.

 3             Mr. Kovacevic, you gave a statement to the OTP representatives in

 4     2003; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Other than this statement of 2003, did you have any other

 7     meetings with the OTP representatives where you discussed any of the

 8     subjects, relevant subjects other than when you arrived in The Hague now

 9     to testify?

10             So did you have occasion to meet with OTP representatives and

11     discuss these issues?

12        A.   Well, I was in Belgrade twice; in March 1993 and in April 2003.

13     And after that until I came to The Hague to testify, I did not give any

14     statements.

15        Q.   It says here, and I suppose that that's what you said also.  You

16     said in March 1993, but you probably meant March 2003.

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... you say he

19     meant March 2003, well, he said March 1993 and April 2003.

20             So is it the correct thing supposed to be March 2003 and

21     April 2003?

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right.  That's right.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did you ever have any conversations, or were you interviewed by

Page 6090

 1     any other official organs regarding the matters that you discussed with

 2     the Prosecutor, the ICTY Prosecutor?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Are you still a member of the reserve corps of the police?

 5        A.   No.  Since 1999, I'm no longer with the reserve forces.

 6        Q.   Has your wartime assignment been removed?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... pause between

 9     question and answer, sir.

10             MR. LUKIC:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacevic, throughout the period, and we

12     will briefly review all those facts that you discussed with the

13     Prosecutor, but, in fact, you discussed with them the facts that you knew

14     about, beginning with the year of 1991 up until 1999, the war in Kosovo.

15             Did you, throughout this period, make any notes for yourself?

16     Did you sort of have any diary or -- of sorts?

17        A.   Well, yes, I did make notes of places I visited, the persons that

18     I met and worked with.  I also made some notes about the convoys and the

19     documents and so on.

20        Q.   Did you use your notes, or did you review them, before you had

21     the interview with the Prosecutor in 2003?

22        A.   I did review my notes, and the OTP representatives, in Belgrade,

23     asked that I draw these two sketches of the way the convoys travelled

24     that I described here.

25        Q.   Did the OTP Prosecutor ask you to review your notes?

Page 6091

 1        A.   Not in Belgrade.

 2        Q.   Do you still have those notes with you?

 3        A.   Yes, I do, at home.

 4        Q.   When you provided -- when you were interviewed by the OTP

 5     representative in March 2003, I assume that your memory or recollection

 6     of the events that you were talking about was better then than it is

 7     today; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You had two interviews with the Prosecutor, on two occasions, two

10     days each.

11        A.   Well, yes.  The first time the -- the first interview lasted two

12     days, and the second one, three.

13        Q.   And the interviewers, the OTP representatives, they did not try

14     in any way to speed up the whole process.  They gave you enough time to

15     remember and to tell them about all the events; correct?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   They were interested in certain topics, and in that sense they

18     put to you questions, specific questions relating to those subjects;

19     correct?

20        A.   Yes.  They were interested in certain subjects and topics, and

21     they asked me about them, and about the events that I participated in.

22     In some cases they did not go into detail regarding some events.

23        Q.   Among other things, they wanted to know what you knew about the

24     role of the Yugoslav army in the convoys that you were a part of, the

25     convoys that Ms. Carter asked you about today and to which you testified

Page 6092

 1     in 1994 -- about the events in 1994 and 1995; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   During the proofing sessions, you had occasion to review your

 4     statement; correct?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   And on that occasion, during the proofing session with

 7     Ms. Carter, you entered certain alterations that relate to several

 8     paragraphs, specifically the paragraphs 95, 102, and 103 of your

 9     statement.

10             As for the rest, you completely agreed with what you signed in

11     2003 as a correct statement.

12        A.   Ms. Carter in paragraph 102 and 103 said that my statement of

13     2003 was perhaps such that it would not be quite clear to the

14     Trial Chamber.  And she asked me not to go into detail too much.

15        Q.   Well, you had some minor changes in those paragraphs.  But as for

16     the rest, you stand by what you said then, correct, in every other

17     respect?

18        A.   Yes.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MR. LUKIC:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] In my questions, I will mainly focus on the

22     topics that we've mentioned today; but, for now, I would like to see, on

23     the screens, your statement, 1D01-0103.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please pull them up on the

25     screens, specifically pages 2 of the B/C/S, and 2 of the English

Page 6093

 1     versions.

 2             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Carter.

 4             MS. CARTER:  May we briefly go into private session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6094











11 Page 6094 redacted. Private session.















Page 6095

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

Page 6096

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we just see the bottom of the

 3     page so that can I ask the witness to confirm that what is presented here

 4     is, indeed, his signature.

 5        Q.   Is this your signature in the left-hand corner, in the bottom

 6     left-hand corner?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you please just wait for me to put the entire question to

 9     you.

10             At paragraph 4, it is stated as follows:

11             "I have been under investigation after a traffic accident.  In

12     1998, I was charged and convicted, but the appeals court overturned the

13     conviction.  Other than that, I have never been under investigation.  I

14     have never undergone treatment in any mental health institution."

15             My question in relation to the information you provided to the

16     OTP is as follows.  Is what you stated here back in 2003 still true

17     today?  In the meantime have there been no criminal proceedings or

18     investigations?

19        A.   Well, at the time my statement was true, but since that period,

20     there was -- there were criminal proceedings instituted against me.

21        Q.   Are you sure that up until that period of time there had been no

22     proceedings?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Had there not been any criminal proceedings against you before

25     2003?

Page 6097

 1        A.   I only gave a statement in one particular case.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the counsel and witness please make a

 3     pause.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, please make a pause between your

 5     question and answer, the two of you.

 6             MR. LUKIC:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Before 2003, was ever a conviction rendered

 8     against you by any court in Serbia or the FRY?

 9        A.   I was convicted for some deeds, but this dated before 2001.

10        Q.   Therefore, what you stated in paragraph 4 was untrue when you

11     stated it.

12        A.   Yes, it was untrue.

13        Q.   In other words, this was a falsehood that you stated to the OTP

14     representatives at the time.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   After 2003 were any final decisions to convict you rendered in

17     respect of you?

18        A.   Yes.  The charge had to do with weapons and ammunition.

19        Q.   Can you explain for the Trial Chamber what it meant, what sort of

20     crime was this?

21        A.   Unlawful possession of weapons and ammunition.

22        Q.   Had you ever been convicted for fraud?

23        A.   That was back in 2002.

24        Q.   In other words, this had also transpired before the date on which

25     you gave your statement to the OTP; is that right?

Page 6098

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   How many times were you convicted for fraud?

 3        A.   Only once.  There was only one sentence passed against me.

 4        Q.   Very well.  But one sentence, but for how many crimes or acts of

 5     fraud were you convicted?

 6        A.   Two.  But a single sentence was passed against me.

 7        Q.   Were you ever charged with economic crime or forgery of official

 8     documents?

 9        A.   Well, there was -- this one case where in my own company, I was

10     charged with driving a truckload of goods without adequate documentation.

11        Q.   At the time -- can you tell us precisely which period of time

12     this was when these unlawful deeds were charged against you?

13        A.   Sometime in 1999.

14        Q.   And before that?

15        A.   Well, the forgery of documents and the transportation of cement.

16     Is that what you're referring to?

17        Q.   No.  Were there any other charges brought against you for fraud

18     before 1999.

19        A.   No, there were none.  Not before 1999.

20        Q.   Did you keep notes of these issues as well?

21        A.   Yes.  I have documentation to that effect.

22        Q.   Were you ever reported for fraud to the SUP Zvezdara in Belgrade?

23        A.   No, there was a criminal report citing me, but I provided them

24     with information, and this was never followed up on.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Lukic please re-put his question.

Page 6099

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you re-put your question and please break --

 2     take a break in between question and answer, please.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My apologises, Your Honour.  I'm

 4     doing my best to follow your guidance.

 5        Q.   Do you remember -- can we have your answer, and please pause,

 6     because it is very important for us to have everything reflected in the

 7     transcript.  I will repeat my question, and you wait a while before

 8     answering.

 9             Do you recall a criminal report having been filed against you for

10     fraud to the SUP of Cukarica on the 26th of May, 1996?

11        A.   Yes.  There was a criminal report filed against me which involved

12     a company --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you begin to

14     answer even before the counsel has finished his question, let alone the

15     interpretation.  There are people interpreting at the back there.  We

16     want to hear what they are saying, so when you start talking while

17     they're interpreting, we don't hear what they say.

18             Can you, please, just pause a little bit.

19             Can you put the question again, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacevic, my question is this.  Do you

22     recall that a criminal report had been filed against you to the SUP of

23     Cukarica on the 24th of May, 1996, for the crime of fraud?

24        A.   Yes.  A report was filed against me which had to do with my work

25     for a company in Republika Srpska.  However, the court dismissed the

Page 6100

 1     charges.  This involved the company called Prontes from Teslic.

 2        Q.   Do you recall that a criminal report had been filed against you

 3     on the 20th of March, or, rather, the 25th of March, 1996, to the police

 4     station of Stari Grad in Belgrade?

 5        A.   I don't remember that.  But I explained to you that the reports

 6     had been dismissed and that I had been tried for only one crime at the

 7     time.

 8        Q.   On the 10th of May, 1997, again, in Belgrade, the Zemun police

 9     station, another criminal report was filed for unlawful material gain.

10     Fraud 3; do you recall that?  Fraud, Article 3.

11        A.   Yes.  But this was not in Zemun.  I gave a statement to another

12     police station in Belgrade for that same particular case.  That was the

13     29th November police station.

14        Q.   Again, in 1996, in the month of June, crime 1, and that was again

15     to the SUP of Cukarica in Belgrade?

16        A.   That was that same particular instance you were referring to

17     earlier.  You are confusing things.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we please place the

19     document on the ELMO.  We received the document today, and could we

20     please call up 1D01-0292.  We -- we translated the document into English

21     today, and Madam Carter has been informed of it.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... what do you

23     want to us do with 1D00-0103?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Nothing else.  I only showed part of

25     it to the witness.

Page 6101

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             Yes, Madam Carter, please do sit down, and you may talk, now that

 3     we have recognised you.

 4             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would object to

 5     cross-examination on basis of relevance for any charge that has not

 6     resulted in a conviction as the witness is clearly stating and as the

 7     document - once we see the second page - will indicate that this

 8     individual, while has certainly given statements or has been a part of

 9     previous proceedings, has not been convicted of those proceedings.  This

10     would be unfair for the witness to -- and irrelevant for him to be

11     cross-examined on such issues.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we please bring back 1D01-0103 paragraph 4.

13             Madam Carter, look that paragraph and read what the witness says.

14     He doesn't talk about convictions; he talks about investigations.

15             MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour.  I have been now advised.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Objection overruled.

17             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have on our screens

19     1D01-0292.

20             Can we scroll down in the B/C/S?

21        Q.   Sir, let me not repeat myself.  You'll see that all the various

22     criminal reports bear different dates, don't they?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I started from item 8, and then went upwards, as I was putting

25     questions to you.

Page 6102

 1             At any rate, this particular letter states that six criminal

 2     investigations were conducted against you before you gave your statement

 3     to the OTP; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes, but some criminal offences were dismissed in that

 5     process.

 6        Q.   In 2003, perhaps you stated this of your own will without the

 7     Prosecutor asking you about it, you did state, however, that up until

 8     2003 there had been no investigations conducted against you.

 9        A.   No, I simply said at that time there had been no investigations

10     going on against me.

11        Q.   Well, let me read out what you said in your interview for the

12     Prosecutor, in paragraph 4.

13             "Other than that I have never been under investigation."

14             You said that and signed that statement.  Several days ago, when

15     you reviewed your statement, did you not feel compelled to correct this.

16        A.   Well, no.  Nobody asked me about it.  We started from number 92

17     and went through to paragraph 108.

18        Q.   Let's see what the statement says about convictions.

19             In 2000 you were convicted by the 2nd Municipal Court of Belgrade

20     to a sentence of imprisonment of one year.  Do you remember what crime

21     was involved in this conviction?

22        A.   The crime of fraud.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What paragraph are you reading from this document,

24     sir?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What have I been reading now is the

Page 6103

 1     second set of paragraphs, under number 1.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Which are the convictions rendered

 4     against him pursuant to a final decision.  This was in 2000.

 5        Q.   Therefore, three years before your statement to the OTP; is that

 6     right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you serve the sentence?

 9        A.   All the four convictions were served as a single sentence.  And,

10     yes, I served it.

11        Q.   And this is something that you omitted to inform the OTP of.

12        A.   Nobody asked me about it.

13        Q.   The district Court of Subotica, in 2003, after you gave your

14     statement to the OTP, passed a sentence of four months of imprisonment

15     against you.  Do you recall what crime was involved here?

16        A.   This was illicit trade, I think.  But any rate the four

17     convictions were -- I was punished for the four convictions by serving a

18     single term of imprisonment, so I don't know why you keep going back to

19     the various convictions.

20        Q.   Well, I'm doing this simply because I wanted to know what crime

21     was involved.  This isn't what the document states.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to the next page,

23     under 3.

24        Q.   We have the Backa Topola municipal Court issuing judgement,

25     whereby a sentence of imprisonment was rendered again.

Page 6104

 1        A.   Yes, that was for the possession of weapons.

 2        Q.   15th of October, 2004, the Municipal Court of Ruma, term of

 3     imprisonment of ten months; do you recall what this was?

 4        A.   Yes.  This was the time when I drove cement for the Borovica

 5     Transport Company when we were caught transporting cement at the time

 6     when there was a ban on the transportation of such items to

 7     Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   When was this?

 9        A.   I was a driver in the company, and I was carrying out orders of

10     my superiors.  Since the cement works in Beocin owed a great amount of

11     money to the company I worked of -- I worked for, we engaged in illicit

12     trade of cement.

13        Q.   Very well.  The document also states that you were -- your

14     behaviour is scornful, bullyish, that you are prone to fighting.  What do

15     you have to tell us about that?

16        A.   Well, I was involved in a bar Brawl where I had to act in

17     self-defence.  Would you not do the same if you were in my shoes?

18        Q.   I will not be commenting on what you're asking me.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now tender this into evidence.

20     We have a draft translation which could perhaps be MFIed for the time

21     being.  And in the meantime, we will procure an official version of the

22     translation which could then be admitted into evidence.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence and marked

24     for identification.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D92, marked

Page 6105

 1     for identification.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   All right.  Now let us go back to what this Trial Chamber -- or

 5     this Court would like to hear about.

 6             I just have one more question about the period preceding your

 7     testimony.

 8             Did you report, or did you call The Hague Tribunal or

 9     Prosecutor's office, or did they actually seek you out?

10        A.   The first interview, in 2003, I was with a colleague who was in

11     the reserve, he was called by a representative of the OTP.  He mentioned

12     me in his interview, after which I also went and had a -- an interview

13     with the representative of the OTP.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you went and had the interview with the

15     representative of the OTP, did you go of your own volition, or did he

16     call you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As my colleague had already been

18     called in, and this had to do with a case where he was cited as the -- as

19     a suspect, or an accused, he asked me to come and make a statement, and I

20     did, voluntarily, and made a statement.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] All right.  Now I will go through your statement

25     chronologically and specifically about your testimony in answering the

Page 6106

 1     questions of Ms. Carter regarding the transport of these men to the

 2     Republika Srpska in the spring of 1994.

 3             And maybe it would be best if we can have on the screens your

 4     statement; document 1D01-0103, page 18 of the B/C/S, and 19 of the

 5     English version.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 92.  That's where you begin

 7     your account of that episode.  And in the third line -- third sentence

 8     you say:

 9             "It should be noted that at that time the decision of the

10     government of the Republic of Serbia to bring in all men fit for..."  --

11     let's pause a bit.

12             MR. LUKIC:  So again paragraph 92, if we may pull that up,

13     please.

14        Q.   So you can see in paragraph 92 the sentence that I was reading:

15             "It should be noted that at the time the decision of the

16     government of the Republic of Serbia was in effect to bring in all men

17     fit for military service, aged 18 to 65 from the RS and the RSK

18     regardless of whether they had refugee status."

19             Now, mentioned some of this a little earlier to Ms. Carter.  And

20     you said that at the check-point where you were, you had a dispatch from

21     the MUP I assume?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And from this telegram or dispatch you learned that this was a

24     decision by the government of the Republic of Serbia; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6107

 1        Q.   The witness, on page 55, line 11, said yes, and mistakenly it --

 2     the answer seems to be in the negative.  I can repeat the question if

 3     that is necessary.

 4             So Witness, at this check-point where you were, you were

 5     mobilized as a reserve policeman.  Is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And that's where you saw this telegram.  And you concluded on the

 8     basis of that telegram that this was a decision issued by the government

 9     of the Republic of Serbia to bring in all men fit for military service;

10     is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.  At this check-point, Kosta 4, to be more precise, and I

12     have already explained where there was, because there were a lot of

13     check-points around Belgrade, each road leading to and out of Belgrade

14     had a check-point.  The Belgrade-Zagreb way, the Novi Sad road, the

15     Ibarski [indiscernible] road.  There were check-points on every road, and

16     the leader, the check-point commander, brought this telegram.  It was

17     underlined in red ink and we were warned as to what we were to look for

18     and to pay attention to.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I ask you once again, sir, to please just

20     pause for a short while.  Let the interpreters finish interpreting the

21     lawyers words, okay?  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we just scroll up the document a

23     bit?  I need to see the bottom part.

24        Q.   When you testified today, describing this episode, I understood

25     that to mean that you only drove one such convoy, transporting people;

Page 6108

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you say here in the last line:

 4             "These buses were escorted by the Serbian MUP."

 5             Correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You make no mention at all here that there were any military

 8     vehicles there.  Do you recall that during this interview with the

 9     relevant representatives of the OTP, you never mentioned any military

10     vehicles?

11        A.   I only said that the Republika Srpska MUP escorted us to the

12     Morovica forest where we were taken over by the Yugoslav army escort

13     because these were the border troops of the Yugoslav army.

14        Q.   All right.  So am I correct in saying that this entire trip you

15     were escorted by the MUP escorts, and then at the Morovica wood you were

16     met by the army of Yugoslavia, and you were escorted through the wood,

17     and on the other side by the army of Yugoslavia; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And after you left the forest, you said, in your descriptions,

20     that there were no more military escorts; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And the Morovica forest is on the border very close to the border

23     with Republika Srpska, or, rather, Bosnia and Herzegovina; correct?

24        A.   Well, the Morovica forest is on the river Sava, and it is on the

25     border with the Republic of Bosnia.  And at the other end where the Bosut

Page 6109

 1     river is, there was also the border with Croatia.

 2             So this was precisely at the tri-border area between Serbia,

 3     Bosnia, and Croatia.

 4        Q.   You testified today that on the bus where you transported these

 5     individuals from Bubanj Potok, there was also Lieutenant-Colonel

 6     Tomasevic whom you knew from before the war.

 7        A.   At this time he was a major, and he lived in Backa Topola where

 8     he was married and had a child and an apartment where they lived.  As I

 9     already mentioned before my wife was from Backa Topola, so we were good

10     friends, we were close friends.

11        Q.   And you testified today that he was in Bubanj Potok when the bus

12     left off for Knin.

13        A.   Yes.  And he road with me to Knin because he hails from around

14     Vojnici in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

15        Q.   All right.  Very well.  Can we just see the next page, please, in

16     the B/C/S version, the same paragraph, 93.  And as for the English

17     version, we can see that portion on this page already.  It's toward the

18     end of the paragraph.

19             You said when you provided your statement to the Prosecutor that:

20             "There were three buses, including mine, left for Knin.  Two

21     buses remained in Banja Luka, and two buses left for Prijedor.  On my

22     return to Belgrade, I brought along about 25 officers and

23     non-commissioned officers of the Yugoslav army whose shift had ended.

24     This group included VSK Colonel Vladimir Tomasevic whom I had known from

25     Vukovar."

Page 6110

 1        A.   Well, this means that he -- well, what I said was that he went to

 2     Knin with me, but he did not return.  So this part of the statement of

 3     2003 is incorrect.  And I knew this man from the Vukovar battlefield

 4     because he was there then because the barracks in Backa--

 5        Q.   I have to interrupt you.  You have already explained this, and I

 6     don't think that your acquaintance with him is not really that relevant.

 7     I see there is a discrepancy between what you said in your statement and

 8     what you have testified to today, and you, yourself, could see this.

 9             Now my question is this:  You told us a minute ago that the

10     Prosecutor showed you the relevant paragraphs of statement, that you

11     occasion to read them and correct them before you began your testifying

12     today.  Correct?

13        A.   Yes.  I can only tell you that on the way back for Belgrade,

14     there was some 20 to 25 officers and non-commissioned officers.  I don't

15     know exactly what the ratio was, but they returned with me to Belgrade.

16        Q.   But in your statement of 2003, you also said that in that group

17     that went from Knin to Belgrade, Colonel Tomasevic was in the group as

18     well; correct?

19        A.   Yes.  But in fact he remained -- remained in the army of the

20     Serbian Krajina up until the end of 1994, and after that, he went to a

21     command of the army of Republika Srpska in Trebinje, where he retired

22     from.

23        Q.   So this part of your statement is mistakenly interpreted, and you

24     failed to observe that error while you reviewed it; correct?

25        A.   Well, the Prosecutor didn't really pay much attention to that and

Page 6111

 1     neither did I.  But it is true that 25 officers and non-commissioned

 2     officers returned to Belgrade with me.  Now I don't know exactly the

 3     ratio.  And I apologise, if I can just add one thing.  You can see from

 4     my personnel file that -- or, rather, from the personnel file of

 5     Colonel Tomasevic, can you easily establish exactly when he was in the

 6     army of the Serbian Krajina and when he returned.

 7        Q.   Sir, would you please just stick to my questions and try to

 8     answer my questions.  Please try to focus on what I am asking you about

 9     exactly and do not go beyond that.

10             Now my next question is this:  On this occasion, if I understood

11     this correctly, there were three MUP vehicles, buses.  Correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you recall -- can you recall the names of the other drives,

14     the drivers who went with you?  Can you tell us?

15        A.   I can only remember one name, a member of MUP, but I can't

16     remember the other name.

17        Q.   Could we have his name, please.

18        A.   Milan Markovic.

19        Q.   He was also a reserve policeman in the brigade?

20        A.   No, he was an active duty policeman in the Serbian MUP, and he is

21     still on duty.

22        Q.   Very well.  Now, do you know any of the names of the military bus

23     drivers?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Do you know any of the names of the non-commissioned officers or

Page 6112

 1     officers that escorted that bus?

 2        A.   Well, on my bus, there was Major Vladimir Tomasevic, but as for

 3     the other buses, I wasn't really there contact with them, and I didn't

 4     know the names.  But the drivers who drove those buses did know their

 5     names.

 6        Q.   So are you trying to tell us here that Major Tomasevic was your

 7     military escort on the bus?

 8        A.   He was the escort, and there were two other military officers.

 9     If I recall correctly one of them was a staff-sergeant, and the other one

10     was a warrant officer.

11        Q.   All right.  And just one last question.

12             So as an escort, being the escort on the bus, he remained in

13     Knin.  He didn't return?

14        A.   Yes, he did not return.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this is a good

16     time for a break.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is indeed.

18             We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.

19             Court adjourned.

20                           --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

24             [Interpretation] Can we have the witness's statement back on our

25     screens.  I'm interested in paragraph 94, and can we turn to the next

Page 6113

 1     page in the English version, please.

 2             I will put several questions to you that I don't think were asked

 3     of you in the examination-in-chief and are very important to present

 4     things.

 5             In paragraph 94, you state:

 6             "I returned to my firm in early April 1994 and stayed there until

 7     December 1994, when I left my firm because it had gone bankrupt.  I

 8     started working for the Partnertrans company from Novi Sad, owned by

 9     Nenad Mandic," et cetera, et cetera.

10             You continued to say that this individual had connections at the

11     ministry of transport and the Ministry of Defence.  What you described

12     for us earlier was the period while you were mobilized into the reserve

13     force of the police, while you manned the check-point you described for

14     us, and you also did the [indiscernible].

15             But then from April to December 1994 as transpires from your

16     statement, you went back to the department store company in Belgrade;

17     right?

18        A.   Yes.  But, you see, the department store company went bankrupt,

19     and so I worked for this other transportation company.

20        Q.   In the period between April and December 1994, on how many

21     occasions were you mobilized into the reserve police force, if you were

22     mobilized there at all?

23        A.   Throughout the seven months, I worked at the company.  Since we

24     did not receive any salaries, I went back to the police reserve force for

25     several months and then went to work for Partnertrans.  However, you see,

Page 6114

 1     the Partnertrans company had its trucks requisitioned for the purposes of

 2     VJ, and that's where they were used in fact.

 3        Q.   Very well.  In the period you worked as a driver for the

 4     Partnertrans company, you were not mobilized for the MUP of Serbia, were

 5     you?

 6        A.   No.  I was a driver for the Partnertrans company.  However, the

 7     truck that I drove was requisitioned and used for the purposes of the VJ.

 8        Q.   Very well.  You state that this individual Mandic had connections

 9     in the ministry of transport and the Ministry of Defence, right?  I

10     suppose you're referring to the ministries of the Republic of Serbia or

11     of the FRY?

12        A.   Well, those were ministries of the FRY at that time.  Mandic is

13     the president of the association of hauliers in the ministry of transport

14     of Serbia today.

15        Q.   Very well.  Let me ask you this:  Under whose orders did you

16     drive trucks at the time when you worked for the -- for this particular

17     transport company?

18        A.   Under the orders of the army of Yugoslavia.

19        Q.   And who, from the army of Yugoslavia, gave you assignments?

20        A.   I was assigned to the unit 2418.  There are travel orders to that

21     effect, in all the other documentation.

22        Q.   Do you recall the name of any of the persons who told you to do

23     these trips when you drove trucks in that period of time?

24        A.   I recall several individuals.  One of them was a major who is now

25     a retired lieutenant-colonel of the VJ, Jukic.

Page 6115

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter missed the first name.

 2             MR. LUKIC:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] You were not mobilized into a unit of the VJ at

 4     the time, were you?

 5        A.   No.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the interpreter says she missed the

 7     first name of Mr. Jukic, who I see on the transcript is written as

 8     "Vukic."

 9             MR. LUKIC:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you slowly repeat the first and last name of

11     the major who issued orders or assignments to you.

12        A.   Zarko Sljukic.

13        Q.   Which unit was Zarko Sljukic a member of, of MUP or VJ?

14        A.   Of the VJ.  He was a VJ major, and now he is a retired

15     lieutenant-colonel of the VJ.

16        Q.   Can you tell us the unit he belonged to -- which unit he belonged

17     to at the time?

18        A.   I was a member of the unit 2418.  I don't know the unit he

19     belonged to.  He was my superior.

20        Q.   Can you tell us where this particular unit was stationed?

21        A.   The unit was headquartered at the military post of Ruma.

22        Q.   And that's where the Partnertrans company was, or was it

23     Borovica?

24        A.   The Partnertrans company was in Novi Sad; whereas, the Borovica

25     transport company was located in Ruma.

Page 6116

 1        Q.   In that period of time, on how many occasions did you report to

 2     Major Sljukic, and on how many occasions did you drive the truck on his

 3     orders?

 4        A.   As I would come back from an assignment that I completed, I would

 5     get further assignments either by him or his deputy.

 6        Q.   My question was:  On how many occasions back in 1994, at the time

 7     you worked for the Partnertrans company in Novi Sad did the VJ approach

 8     you with a request to drive for their purposes.

 9        A.   Roughly 10 to 15 times.  The truck was assigned to that

10     particular unit and did trips as required by the unit.

11        Q.   This individual Mandic who was the owner of Petratrans --

12        A.   Partnertrans.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... did he provide his trucks for

14     the purposes of the VJ simply because he would get certain benefits for

15     that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The vehicle that you used and in respect of which you received

18     orders, was it in fact used for the purposes of the Ministry of Defence?

19        A.   I can't say clearly whether it was used by the Ministry of

20     Defence or by the VJ.  I know that the -- that sanctions were imposed on

21     the Republic of Serbia.  Companies could not send their vehicles abroad,

22     and they had to make due in order to conduct their business.

23        Q.   The route you described in order to traverse the crossing of

24     Raca, you said that the EU monitors were present at the border crossing

25     at Sremska Raca, in the territory of the FRY.

Page 6117

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   As you went round the border crossing, reached the bridge, and

 3     got into the Republika Srpska, there was also a border crossing there

 4     which was called Bosanska Raca?

 5        A.   Yes.  And it was within the jurisdiction of the Bosnian police

 6     and customs officers.

 7        Q.   And you claim that no European monitors were present there;

 8     right?

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   The transportation of fuel you referred to, you repeatedly

11     participated in these convoys, did you not?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You give quite a transparent testimony of these events at page 21

14     of the B/C/S; page 24 of English, paragraph 107.

15             I will read out the relevant part of your statement.  I quote:

16             "The oil transport was organised by Dusan Borovica through his

17     firm, Borovica Transport, headquartered in Ruma.  I personally took part

18     in the transport of fuel from Bulgaria to the Republika Srpska via

19     Serbia.  This began in 1992, but I personally took part that this

20     operation in 1994."

21             A moment ago we heard that you had worked for that company owned

22     by the gentleman from Novi Sad in 1994.

23        A.   Yes, Nedjo Mandic.  And I worked there up until October of 1994.

24        Q.   Very well.  What I'm interested in next is the shipment of oil

25     from Bulgaria.  Who was your employer at the time?

Page 6118

 1        A.   The Borovica transport company, owned by Dusan Borovica.

 2        Q.   This particular job of work you did had nothing to do with your

 3     engagement in MUP, had it?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   You go on to say, and I quote:

 6             "The drivers were given cash for their daily expenses, for

 7     bribing customs officers, and for buying fuel."

 8             Is that right?  Is that what it says?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Who gave you -- the money to you as a driver as you went to do

11     this shipment?

12        A.   I was given the money by the -- by the owner of the company,

13     Dusan Borovica, or from his brother.

14        Q.   You go on to explain the procedure, and you say, I quote:

15             "The tanker trucks would normally be taken to the parking lot,

16     and as we would be doing that there would be -- while the fuel was being

17     pulled over, a DB unit Sremska Mitrovica or Ruma would come there."

18             Is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   From this portion of your statement, which you had occasion to

21     read, it follows that you were hired by a private businessman,

22     Dusan Borovica.  He gave you the money; you went to Bulgaria, purchased

23     oil; you transported it to his parking lot, from where it was transported

24     to Republika Srpska or Republic of Serbian Krajina, in an organised

25     fashion.

Page 6119

 1             Is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You continued to say in 108, paragraph 108:

 4             "20 percent of the invoiced amount" -- invoiced amount probably

 5     meaning the amount that was received from the sale of oil "was paid to

 6     the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Trade."

 7             Do you remember this?

 8        A.   The oil and oil products that were imported were imported on the

 9     order of the Centreks company registered by the government of

10     Republika Srpska.  The representatives of Centreks company,

11     Slobodan Beatovic, would be waiting for us at the border as well as

12     Branko Sutalo, who still today works for the Republika Srpska government.

13     Government.

14        Q.   And in your -- according to you a percentage went to the Ministry

15     of Defence and the Ministry of Trade of the Republika Srpska?

16        A.   All the cash flow went through the accounts of that company.

17     Some of the fuel was set aside for the purposes of the VRS, and other

18     funds were deposited into the accounts of the Ministry of Defence of

19     Republika Srpska.  And the remaining portions were divided by -- or were

20     taken by those who provided escort for the convoy.  They had a share that

21     they took.

22        Q.   As you said, it was the state security of Serbia that provided

23     escorts.

24        A.   Yes, that's right.  The SDB provided escorts as well as

25     Arkan's Men.  Arkan came to the premises of Borovica Transport Company or

Page 6120

 1     Arkan's Men came to Borovica Transport Company on several occasions, and

 2     they would be the ones doing the job as well.

 3        Q.   Based on what you have just stated and what you have just

 4     confirmed, in this whole process of purchasing oil from Bulgaria, in none

 5     of these elements does the army of Yugoslavia feature, does it?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   You also mentioned that fuel was purchased from Romania, and that

 8     it was actually smuggled across the Danube; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And in -- in none of that does ever the army of Yugoslavia

11     feature, does it?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Let us only clarify, this fuel was purchased illegally in the

14     market of Romania and then -- and was then illegally transported to

15     Republika Srpska and the RSK?

16        A.   Yes.  It was illegally purchased from certain individuals, and

17     the transportation of fuel would be escorted all the way to the Borovica

18     forest.  Let me only state that this section of the road through the

19     Borovica forest was at all times under the control or escort of the army

20     of Yugoslavia.

21        Q.   You have already told us this.  Let me ask you one other thing.

22     At one point in your statement, you said that for a while you

23     participated in the smuggling of cigarettes.  I have a very simple

24     question:  Do you know whether the assets originating from the smuggling

25     of cigarettes, some of the assets ended up in the budget of the RSK and

Page 6121

 1     the RS?

 2        A.   Yes, all the goods imported into the RS went through the Centreks

 3     company which was registered and founded by the government of the RS, and

 4     then they distributed these goods.

 5        Q.   And who did you receive orders regarding this smuggling activity?

 6        A.   Well, it was the owner of the company, because I was an employee

 7     of the Borovica company.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's now go back to another issue, and it has to do

 9     with the transport of ammunition that you mentioned today.

10             My question is this:  You described today, during your testimony,

11     that, on several occasions, you transported ammunition and military

12     equipment from the plants of Kragujevac factory, the military in

13     industry, or rather, from the military industry manufacturers from

14     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   During the proofing that you had with the Prosecutor, and it

17     reads as follows in English, as Ms. Carter said, or interpreted your

18     statement and you have signed it.  It reads as follows.  Let me just see

19     if I can find that portion.  That's in paragraph 15 of the proofing notes

20     and the information report dating a few days ago, or yesterday.  [In

21     English] [Previous translation continues] ...  carried out, came from

22     weapons factory and warehouses in Serbia.  The factories were

23     Zastava Kragujevac, Milan Blagojevic in Lucani, Prvi Partizan in Uzice,

24     Sloboda in Cacak, Trajal Krusevac, and Krusik in Valjevo, and Prva Iskra,

25     Baric.

Page 6122

 1             [Interpretation] Now, as I've read this, does this jog your

 2     memory, which of these manufacturers did you go to, to transport the

 3     ammunition and materiel?

 4        A.   I went to Zastava, then to Prvi Partizan, and the military depot

 5     in Gorjani near Uzice, and the military depot near Gornje Milanovac

 6     called Brdjani.  And once I also took goods from a depot near Vrnik

 7     [phoen], and once from Grmec.  I can't recall exactly what type of goods.

 8        Q.   You further say in the report [In English] [Previous translation

 9     continues] ...  "includes 4 July barracks in the Belgrade garrison, the

10     barracks in Bubanj Potok, a military warehouse in Gorjani, a military

11     warehouse Vrnik near Novi Sad, Paracin and Brdjani near Gornje Milanovac,

12     among others."

13             [Interpretation] In the next paragraph you say as follows -- or,

14     rather, the Prosecutor says in his notes [In English] [Previous

15     translation continues] ...  "due to his previous work he worked for the

16     department store which sold weapons and ammunitions.  He has also been

17     previously deployed with the MUP and VJ."

18             [Interpretation] This report that I have just read out to you

19     makes no mention that you went to these military depot, but, rather, that

20     you knew of them from before, while you used to work for the department

21     stores.

22        A.   No.  I went to Zastava and the Pari Partizan in Uzice, Gorjani,

23     Brdjani, and Vrnik.  And Ms. Prosecutor just wanted me to clarify how it

24     was that I knew anything about the military industry from earlier on, in

25     Krusik and Prvi Partizan.  And because I was a driver for the department

Page 6123

 1     stores, Rovnik Kucik [phoen] company, they had also departments that sold

 2     weapons, side-arms, and that's how I came to go there.

 3        Q.   That's what I understood, too, based on your statement to

 4     Ms. Carter, but you never said to Ms. Carter that you actually went to

 5     those military depots.

 6        A.   Actually, I did tell her that I went to Gorjani, Brdjani, and

 7     once in Tovarnik.  I know that my colleagues also went to Paracin, but I

 8     never went there, nor did I ever go to Prva Iskra, but I know that some

 9     of my colleagues did.

10        Q.   Now once you get to the military depot, do you remember, did you

11     actually receive transportation papers, including a bill of lading which

12     would list all of the goods that have to be loaded?

13        A.   Yes.  We would get a bill of lading with all the items that we

14     were loading, and then we would also hand in the documents and the goods

15     on the border, where Ranko Sljukic and Slobodan Beatovic met us, and then

16     they would tell the trucks where to go to download this.

17        Q.   Let me just ask you this.  Once you arrived to the site where

18     you're supposed to unload your truck, would anyone sign for the reception

19     of this load or these items?

20        A.   Well, no.  There were always people from Republika Srpska or from

21     the Centreks company, and they would check all of this.  They would join

22     us, they would join us, get on our trucks in Dvorovi, and then they would

23     go to the place where these -- where the truck would be unloaded.

24        Q.   Well, was there any document, any paper trail as to what happened

25     with these items, where they were unloaded?

Page 6124

 1        A.   Well, the individual who escorted us, he would receive the bill

 2     of lading, on the spot, and sometimes this would be a representative of

 3     the Centreks company and sometimes a representative of Republika Srpska.

 4     They would receive all the papers and keep them.

 5             So the entire documentation was kept by Republika Srpska or by

 6     the Centreks company, because they would receive all of that.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Now, the Centreks company, is, if I remember, a

 8     company that was actually established by the authorities of

 9     Republika Srpska; correct?

10        A.   That's correct.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up -- or

12     show paragraph 103 on the screens.  So if we can go back a few pages.

13        Q.   Now in paragraph 103 it says:

14             "The truck drivers were civilians, but they were attached to the

15     VJ or the Ministry of Defence.  In principle, they worked for the

16     Ministry of Defence.  Nedjo Mandic and Dusan Borovica provided transport

17     services to the Ministry of Defence and received certain benefits from

18     the ministry."

19             Correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you did not have a military assignment while you were working

22     at the Borovica company; correct?

23        A.   Well, I did have my military assignment at the time was at the

24     MUP of Serbia, but I was not called up to do any military exercises or

25     anything of that sort.

Page 6125

 1        Q.   Well, maybe I wasn't precise enough.  But you didn't have an

 2     assumed in the army of Yugoslavia.

 3        A.   No.  But while I was driving the trucks, I worked for the

 4     Ministry of Defence and for the army because they worked together with

 5     the drivers.

 6        Q.   But as you mentioned here, they were all with the Ministry of

 7     Defence; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  They were assigned to the Ministry of Defence, and they

 9     received all the -- issued all the orders and forwarded them to us,

10     telling us what to transport and where to, et cetera.  There were also

11     other trucks from Autotransport in Valjevo and Juga Ekspres from

12     Leskovac.

13        Q.   Just a moment, please.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You've got a moment.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Just a moment.  There's another portion of your statement that I

17     would like to put to you.

18             While we were discussing the transport of oil products, you said

19     that one of the sources where you obtained the fuel was from Bulgaria and

20     Romania.  But do you recall that crude oil was sent from Djelatovac to

21     the refinery in Pancevo?

22        A.   Yes.  But the crude oil was transported to Pancevo by Sidtrans

23     from Sid and --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the second company

25     from Sid.

Page 6126

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters didn't hear the name of the

 2     second company from Sid.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you please repeat slowly.

 5        A.   Sidtrans.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, we've got Sid transport already in the first

 7     answer.  Is it -- is it Sid Transport or Sidtrans?  What are the two

 8     companies, sir?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was Borovica transport and

10     Sidtrans from Sid.  In addition there were also tanker trucks owned by

11     Zeljko Raznjatovic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

15        Q.   Dzeletovci were in Srpska Krajina?

16        A.   Yes, Djeletovci was on the territory of the Republika of Srpska

17     Krajina.

18        Q.   And that is where the plants for the refining of crude oil were;

19     correct?  Or, rather -- that were later sent to Pancevo for refining.

20        A.   Yes.  That is where the crude oil was obtained, and then it was

21     sent for refining to the Pancevo refinery.

22        Q.   And you don't know what the arrangements were between the

23     Republic of Serbian Krajina, who owned these plants, and the Pancevo

24     refinery, what type of financial arrangements.  You don't know anything

25     about that?

Page 6127

 1        A.   I don't know anything about that.  I just know that the sources

 2     were under the control, including the ones in Dzeletovci of the Skorpions

 3     units, these units were established by the security service of the

 4     Republic of Serbia, and a portion of those -- a portion of those sites

 5     were also secured by Arkan's units.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

 8     questions for this witness.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

10             Any re-examination, Madam Carter?

11             MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you may remain seated.

13             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           Re-examination by Ms. Carter:

15        Q.   Sir, at page 55 today you were discussing how you learned about

16     the decision by the government to bring in the able-bodied men who were

17     from the RS and the RSK.  Do you recall such testimony?

18        A.   Yes.  When I returned to the MUP unit I was assigned as I've

19     already mentioned to the check-point at Kosa 4.  The check-point

20     commander at the time - if you like, I can give you his name - he was the

21     commander of this check-point and our superior officers.  He brought,

22     that morning, a telegram, and then he underlined in red ink the portions

23     that we were supposed to pay special attention to.

24             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, based upon the cross-examination of

25     this witness on this point, I would like to present a couple of documents

Page 6128

 1     to the witness, two of which there are on our 65 ter list, one of which

 2     we just received from Serbia pursuant to a RFA that's included on our

 3     eighth supplement list.  These were not listed as -- or excuse me, as

 4     documents to be used in this examination.  But due to the fact that this

 5     issue was brought up on cross-examination, we would ask leave of Court to

 6     be able to use them now.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a problem

 9     specifically, because I received this document for the first time now,

10     while my cross-examination was under way.  This document was not

11     discovered to us, and I don't object to any document that was on a 65 ter

12     list to be used if they were disclosed earlier, but this document was

13     disclosed to me in the course of my cross-examination, which means that

14     it was added to the 65 ter list during my cross-examination, and I think

15     this is not the procedure that we should follow.

16             I don't think we should put to the witness a document that we had

17     -- knew nothing about before our cross-examination began.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you talking about -- when you say "this

19     document," is that the document that Madam Carter refers to as recently

20     received as a result of an RFA?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is what she has just said, and I

22     have no information as to when she received this document.  I don't know

23     anything about that.  It's quite possible that it is the way you put it.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, what document did you give to this

25     gentleman?

Page 6129

 1             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, the document has a 65 ter number of

 2     0647-6864.  Ms. Javier is looking right now to see exactly when it was

 3     disclosed to the Defence.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that the same document, sir?

 5             Mr. Lukic, does it have the same 65 ter number.

 6             MS. CARTER:  Apologies, Your Honour, that is an ERN number, not a

 7     65 ter number.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does it have the same ERN number?  You called it a

 9     65 ter number.

10             Are you getting no translation, Mr. Lukic?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am getting translation,

12     Your Honour, but I can't ...

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone

14     not activated] [Overlapping speakers] ...

15             What is the ERN number of that document, sir?

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The ERN number of this document that

17     I have in my hand now, if that is the document that Ms. Carter would like

18     to use, is 0647-6864.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MS. CARTER:  And, Your Honour, that document was disclosed.  We

21     received the translation.  It was disclosed on May 8th, and it's part of

22     the Prosecution's eighth supplemental 65 ter.  Specifically, we gave it

23     the preliminary number, and we'd the Court to give it the final number of

24     65 ter 9534.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, when you say it was disclosed on the 8th,

Page 6130

 1     disclosed to the Defence, or is it listed in your eighth supplemental 65

 2     ter list?

 3             MS. CARTER:  It was disclosed to the Defence on May 8th -- excuse

 4     me, on April 9th, and then a part of the eighth supplemental request

 5     which was on May 8th, 2009.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Apparently, the document is alleged to have been

 7     disclosed to you on the 9th of April, sir.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I've just been informed that the

 9     document was disclosed to us on the 9th of April, and in that sense, I

10     can just try and clarify what I've said earlier.

11             Since we have not responded to the supplementary list, nor has

12     the Trial Chamber ruled on that, irrespective of that in view of the fact

13     that Ms. Carter would like to put it the witness now for the first time

14     and that we did not receive any information regarding this document, I

15     think we should have the right to also question the witness about this

16     document, once Ms. Carter has done that, because we did not receive

17     information that she will use the document during the examination.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  You are referring to 8th of May when the

19     supplemental 65 ter list was being filed.  The document is supposed to

20     have been disclosed to you a month earlier, on the 9th of April.  That's

21     -- and you have confirmed that.  You have confirmed that just now.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I'm not confirming that.  Maybe

23     there is just a confusion with the dates.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... look at

25     page 78, line 2, sir.  That's you speaking there.

Page 6131

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document was disclosed to us on

 2     the 9th of May.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam, now, I don't know what your -- Madam Carter

 4     said it was disclosed to you on the 9th of April; it was included in the

 5     65 ter -- the eighth 65 ter supplemental list on the 8th of May.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, I -- could you please just --

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  My apologies, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Lukic, I'm saying to you, just look at what Madam Carter

11     said, and can you respond to that?  She says you were -- this document

12     was disclosed to you on the 9th April, and on 8th of May it was put on

13     the supplemental list that still has to be ruled upon.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have been informed by my case

15     manager, Your Honours, that this document was disclosed to us in

16     batch 315, and that it was disclosed on the 8th of May.  In other words,

17     on Friday, a few days ago.  That it was disclosed on the 8th of May.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's your word against Madam Carter's on that

19     point.  But this changes the position from the initial position that you

20     put.  It was not disclosed to you for the first time during your

21     cross-examination of this witness.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The information --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... what's your

24     argument now against Madam Carter's desire to use that document, given

25     that it was disclosed to you on the 8th of May and not during your

Page 6132

 1     cross-examination today?

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My argument is as follows.  I do not

 3     object to Ms. Carter using the document.  However, in view of the fact

 4     that you have not ruled on whether this document will be admitted, based

 5     on the 65 ter list of the 8th, I think the Defence should have the right

 6     to question, to put some additional questions to this witness if it so

 7     wishes after Ms. Carter has finishing questioning him.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very well, then, Mr. Lukic.

 9             Do you have any response on that very last point, Madam Carter?

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour.  The Prosecution would have no

12     objection to the Defence having additional cross-examination on that

13     limited purpose with regards to that specific document.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very well.  Then you may proceed and put the

15     documents that you want to put to the witness, ma'am.

16             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   I would first like to call up 65 ter 3311.

18             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, we're appearing to have some technical

19     difficulties, that it needs to be released.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, for -- it appears that 65 ter 3311 has

22     not been uploaded into e-court.  We do have hard copies of the document.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's this document that's on the screen?

24             MS. CARTER:  That would be 65 ter 3311, Your Honour.  I do

25     apologise.

Page 6133

 1        Q.   Sir, in your testimony at page 55, you indicated that your order

 2     actually came from the Republic of Serbia.  The document that we have

 3     before us that -- that is from the Republika Srpska indicates that a

 4     meeting took place between a -- or a meeting was to take place between a

 5     representative of Yugoslav army General Staff, MUP, Serbia, MUP Republika

 6     Srpska, the minister of Defence of Republika Srpska, as well as the head

 7     of the administration of the army of the Republika Srpska Main Staff.

 8             Sir, were you aware that the VJ was also involved in the rounding

 9     up of able-bodied men to send them back to the RS and the RSK?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I cannot see in what way the document

12     has anything to do with the issue.  If the Prosecutor wanted to suggest

13     to put a leading question to the witness, she could have done so without

14     showing the document to the witness, who is not aware of it.

15             I think that by formulating her question thus, Madam Carter has

16     in fact suggested the answer to the witness.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your objection is that the -- Madam Carter is

18     asking a leading question.

19             Madam Carter.

20             MS. CARTER:  Respectfully, Your Honour, a leading question by

21     definition implies that an answer is being suggested.  I'm simply asking

22     the witness, is he aware that the army of Yugoslavia was also involved in

23     a decision --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, if you put a document on the screen

25     which tells him the answer before you put the question, you're putting a

Page 6134

 1     leading question to the witness.

 2             MS. CARTER:  I am guided, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Objection sustained.

 4             MS. CARTER:  Okay.

 5        Q.   Sir --

 6             MS. CARTER:  We can remove the document from the screen.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             MS. CARTER:

 9        Q.   Sir, were you aware of who made the decision to round up the

10     able-bodied men to send back to the RS and the RSK?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.  I know what you're going to say.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness was shown a portion of

13     the statement, and he provided a specific answer to that question.  The

14     government of the Republic of Serbia.  It is not me testifying now.  I'm

15     merely reminding my learned friend of his answer.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already said in my statement that

17     a telegram had reached the check-point.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  Sir, when the counsel are arguing between

19     themselves, stay out of it until you -- they address themselves to you.

20             Anyway, what the nub of your argument is what he is saying.  The

21     question has been answered.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  He provided the answer.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... the answer

24     has been given.

25             MS. CARTER:  If I may have just a moment to consult with counsel.

Page 6135

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do.

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             MS. CARTER:

 4        Q.   Sir, are you aware of any commendations to the participants in

 5     the roundup of the able-bodied men by the Republika Srpska?

 6        A.   In my statement, I said that a telegram had reached the

 7     check-point which had the -- the dispatch had been issued by the Ministry

 8     of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia, pursuant to the instructions

 9     issued by the government of the Republic of Serbia to the effect that the

10     able-bodied men from the RS and the RSK should be rounded up at certain

11     locations, i.e., police stations, from where they were transported either

12     to the VJ barracks.  In our case, they were transported to the police

13     station where they were subjected to a medical check and transported

14     onwards.

15        Q.   Yes, sir, I understand that that is what happened at the

16     inception of this process.

17             Are you aware of any commendations or any comments on this

18     roundup after the fact?

19        A.   That's something that I cannot speak about.  What the sort of

20     cooperation existed between the government of the Republic of Serbia and

21     the governments of the RSK and RS.  I only know that the decree was being

22     followed.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sir, please do listen to the question.

24     You're not being asked anything about cooperation between the

25     Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbia.  You are being asked whether

Page 6136

 1     you aware of any commendations to the participants in the rounding up of

 2     these able-bodied men.

 3             If you don't understand the question, ask the lawyer to repeat

 4     himself or reformulate it.  Don't give an answer that is not an answer to

 5     the question.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm not clear on is where

 7     would they be arriving from, the commendations.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, that's for you.

 9             MS. CARTER:

10        Q.   Sir, are you aware of any commendations from any source, for the

11     men who participated in the roundup?

12        A.   I know that when we were manning check-points, we had to, at the

13     end of your shifts, make a list of the individuals that were taken in,

14     and -- and the events that happened.  Whether any of our superiors

15     received commendations from higher levels is something I'm not aware of.

16        Q.   Thank you, sir.

17             At page 65 today, you were discussing with Defence counsel, the

18     pass at Bosanska Raca, specifically whether European commission monitors

19     were present.

20             MS. CARTER:  I would ask that your statement be brought up.  I'm

21     sorry, I don't have the Defence exhibit number of that.  At paragraph 99,

22     specifically at paragraph 20.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's 1D01-0103.  It has not been tendered.

24             MS. CARTER:  Okay.  Let me try it this way.

25        Q.   Sir, you indicated that there were no custom officers present --

Page 6137

 1     I'm sorry, no European monitors present at that time.  Were European

 2     monitors anywhere near that bridge?

 3        A.   No.  The monitors were present at the border crossing itself,

 4     where the police of the Republic of Serbia and the customs service of the

 5     FRY were present.  That was at the Sremska Raca border crossing itself.

 6        Q.   Sir, were the European monitors aware of the crossing at the

 7     bridge?

 8        A.   The European monitors could not have been aware of the crossing

 9     at the bridge, because the border crossing was 3 kilometres away from the

10     bridge.

11        Q.   Outside of the distance of the bridge, were any other measures

12     taken to prohibit the European monitors from knowing that the crossing

13     was occurring?

14        A.   Since the crossings would take place at night, between 1.00 and

15     3.00 a.m., the volume of traffic was quite low, and it was on the Serbian

16     side near Kuzmin where the police of Serbia would stop the traffic;

17     whereas, in Republika Srpska, the Republika Srpska police would stop all

18     traffic on the section of the road between Dvorovi and the point where

19     the border was crossed.

20        Q.   Was anything else done?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm -- I -- I object the fact that

23     the witness is being shown his statement while the questions are put to

24     him.  I would like the statement to be taken off the screen while he is

25     answering questions.

Page 6138

 1             MS. CARTER:  I have no objection, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the statement please be removed from the

 3     screen.

 4             Yes, Madam Carter.

 5             MS. CARTER:

 6        Q.   Sir, at the border crossing -- excuse me.  In relation to the

 7     European monitors, were there -- outside of the methods that you have

 8     already described, were any other methods used to avoid detection of the

 9     convoy?

10        A.   In my statement from 2003, I enclosed a sketch of the

11     Sremska Raca-Bosanska Raca border crossing and the route taken by the

12     convoys.  There, the border was clearly depicted as well as the location

13     of the Serbian police, customs officers, European monitors, including

14     stalls selling audiocassettes with music.  There were cafes there as

15     well.  There was a cafe on the border crossing on the Serbian side, as

16     well as on the other side of the border to the right; there was another

17     cafe there.

18             I said that the bridge was some 3 kilometres away from the border

19     crossing itself.  The road went up the hill, and the trucks in the convoy

20     would switch their lights off so that the European monitors would not be

21     able to observe them.  At the same time, in order to drown out the sound

22     of the engines, the stalls selling audiocassette would play loud music.

23        Q.   Who was manning these stalls?

24        A.   Civilians.  Persons who owned these stalls.

25        Q.   How would these civilians know to begin the music at that time?

Page 6139

 1        A.   They were informed by the police deployed at the border crossing.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 3             And, finally, at page 72 of today's transcript, you were asked

 4     about who was responsible for the convoys, and specifically it was

 5     suggested that the Ministry of Defence was the sole responsible party.

 6             Sir, when drivers were attached to VJ or MUP vehicles, who paid

 7     their salaries and benefits for the time in which they served on those

 8     convoys?

 9        A.   In my case specifically, I received my salary from the MUP of the

10     Republic of Serbia, both my salary and daily allowance.

11             As for those who were on the convoys for the VJ, it must have

12     been the VJ that paid their salaries, or their home companies, depending

13     on what the arrangement was.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I appreciate your answers, and I pass the

16     witness.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             Mr. Lukic, are you happy?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since the document was not involved,

20     I don't have any further questions.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, that brings us to the conclusion of your

22     testimony.  Thank you so much for taking your time to come and testify at

23     the Tribunal.  You are now excused; you may stand down, and please travel

24     we will back home, okay?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 6140

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon, I see you rising.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             Your Honour, the next witness is a closed session witness.  I

 5     note the time.  I believe he is still speaking with a colleague of mine.

 6     Could we adjourn until 2.15 tomorrow and begin the witness at that time?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  The Chamber stands adjourned to tomorrow,

 8     2.15 in the afternoon in Courtroom I.

 9             Court adjourned.

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.51 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of May,

12                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.