Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6475

 1                           Monday, 25 May, 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

12     the day, starting with the Prosecution, please.

13             MR. SAXON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon,

14     Lorna Bolton, Salvatore Cannata, and Ms. Inger de Ru for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Just before we call the next witness,

16     one small housekeeping matter.

17             I beg your pardon, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

19     afternoon to everyone taking part in this proceeding.  Today Mr. Perisic

20     is going to be represented by Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, Milos Androvic,

21     Daniela Tasic, and a young intern Katharine Marshall, and with your leave

22     she is here in the courtroom.  And my name is Lukic.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic, and I'm terribly

24     sorry for doing that.  I was just going to say before we start with the

25     calling the witness, just one little thing.  I want to believe that on

Page 6476

 1     the 20th of May, the Trial Chamber issued a confidential decision

 2     pursuant to the Rule 92 quater granting a motion by the Prosecution to

 3     admit 10 exhibits pertaining to an unavailable witness.  And that

 4     although the reasoning of the decision was confidential, the admission of

 5     those exhibits is a matter of public record.  Would you agree with me,

 6     Mr. Cannata, or Mr. Saxon?

 7             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  That being the case, then those exhibits

 9     ought to be made public, and it is so ordered that they be made public.

10     And those exhibits are, 65 ter number 09549 which is admitted as

11     Exhibit P2376, going right through to 65 ter number 09558 which is

12     admitted as Exhibit P2385.  All those in between those two numbers must

13     be admitted publicly.  If the Registrar will kindly do that for us.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Will do, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             Mr. Saxon.

17             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will call the next witness.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata.

19             MR. CANNATA:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to you, sir.

21             MR. CANNATA:  Prosecution calls Dragomir Vasic.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, sir.  Good afternoon.  Good

24     afternoon.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

Page 6477

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you please make the declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You may be seated now.

 5                           WITNESS:  DRAGOMIR VASIC

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

 8             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Cannata:

10        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

11        A.   Good afternoon.

12        Q.   Can you please state your full name, place, and date of birth for

13     the record.

14        A.   My name is Dragomir Vasic.  I was born on the 30th of October,

15     1964, in Tuzla, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'd like to turn your attention to the events in

17     Srebrenica in July 1995, and to do so, I'd like you to start by telling

18     us what was your profession in July 1995.

19        A.   I have a university degree in law.  And in 1995 I was the head of

20     the public security centre in Zvornik.  That centre covered eight

21     municipalities and the Birac region.

22        Q.   Can you please list the municipalities covered by the public

23     security centre in Zvornik?

24        A.   The seat was in Zvornik, so that would be the first municipality,

25     followed by Osmace, Sekovici, Vlasenica, Milici, Bratunac, and Skelani.

Page 6478

 1        Q.   I only count seven municipalities, where is the eighth?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata, who is testifying?

 3             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, the witness said that the Zvornik

 4     centre covered eight municipality.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did he say eight?

 6             MR. CANNATA:  Yes.  It's line --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I beg your pardon.

 8             MR. CANNATA:  18.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm so sorry.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My mistake, after the 12th of July,

11     the eighth municipality became Srebrenica.

12             MR. CANNATA:

13        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

14             Now, going back to the events in July 1995, where were you on the

15     evening of the 13th of July, 1995.

16        A.   The whole day of the 13th of July, 1995, I spent in the town of

17     Srebrenica.  My task was to establish a Public Security Station and to

18     protect the property from looting.  According to the minister's order,

19     that was my principal task.  I left at 10.00 a.m., and I returned

20     sometime at around 2000 hours to Bratunac.

21        Q.   And what did you do on the evening of the 13th July in Bratunac?

22        A.   After my return from Srebrenica, I went to the Bratunac police

23     station where I met with the head of the station, Miodrag Josipovic.

24     Josipovic informed me that a large group of Muslim prisoners from

25     Srebrenica had been brought to town who had previously surrendered to our

Page 6479

 1     forces on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.  Josipovic also told me that

 2     there was an order of the command of the VRS to put the prisoners in the

 3     school, at the stadium, and on buses.  He highlighted the problem of

 4     providing security for these men and said that the men fit for military

 5     service from Bratunac were being gathered together in order to provide

 6     assistance to the police for securing the prisoners.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, if you say -- when you say "people had

 8     previously surrendered to our forces."  Who is the "our"?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to the Army of

10     Republika Srpska and the police forces deployed on that particular road.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good.

12             MR. CANNATA:

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you belonged to the VRS?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a member of the police of the

16     MUP of Republika Srpska.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  MUP.  Thank you, Mr. Cannata.

18             MR. CANNATA:

19        Q.   And, sir, what did you do after the meeting with Josipovic?

20        A.   We both realised that we had a huge problem in Bratunac and then

21     I went to the office of Mr. Miroslav Deronjic, who at the time was an

22     acting civilian commissioner appointed by the president of the republic.

23     I wanted to inform him about the pending problem and ask him if it is

24     possible for him to communicate with someone from a higher level and try

25     to get some instructions as it to what was to be done with these men

Page 6480

 1     next.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  What time was it?

 3        A.   That was immediately after Josipovic briefed me, so I would say

 4     at around 8.30 in the evening.

 5        Q.   How long did you stay in Mr. Deronjic's office?

 6        A.   During my first visit, I saw Mr. Ljubo Simic, the president of

 7     the municipality in Mr. Deronjic's office, as well as Srbislav Davidovic

 8     the chairman of the executive committee and Mr. Deronjic himself.  The

 9     three of them were discussing this problem as well, and I saw that they

10     were concerned about the situation.  I spent there perhaps half an hour.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             You indicated that that was your first visit to Mr. Deronjic's

13     office.  What did you do there?

14        A.   I informed Mr. Deronjic, although he already knew about this

15     alarming situation in Bratunac and told him that it would be necessary

16     for him to consult either President Karadzic or someone else in order to

17     be told what to do next and how proceed.

18             Mr. Deronjic told me that he was going to call President Karadzic

19     and ask for instructions as how to proceed further.  He suggested to us

20     to try and find or locate the men who were not available in order to

21     reinforce the security until he sees and decides how to proceed next.

22        Q.   Sir, my question was, what did you do after meeting the first

23     time with Mr. Deronjic?

24        A.   After my first meeting, I returned to the police station in

25     Bratunac to Mr. Josipovic's office.  During that evening, I went twice or

Page 6481

 1     three times back to Deronjic's office with the aim of finding out whether

 2     communication was established and what were instructions that he had

 3     possibly received.

 4        Q.   What happened during your last visit to Mr. Deronjic?

 5        A.   It was almost midnight when I went to Mr. Deronjic's office to

 6     hear the latest information.  I found in his office him and a man whom I

 7     didn't know at the time, Mr. Deronjic introduced him to me and said that

 8     that was Colonel Beara.  And he also introduced me as the head of the

 9     security centre of Zvornik.

10             I noticed that the two were arguing and there was a row between

11     them.  There were many people in the corridor, quite a crowd.  Deronjic

12     left his office for a short while because somebody wanted to see him, and

13     then I asked Mr. Beara about what was going on, what the problem was.  He

14     told me that he had come there on a mission and that he was entrusted

15     with the prisoners, and that he had received an order for all the

16     prisoners to be killed.

17             I asked him whose order it was, and he just replied, "it came

18     from the boss."  When I asked him which boss are you referring to, his

19     answer was, "General Mladic."  When Deronjic returned to the office,

20     their argument and quarrel continued.

21             That was the first time that I heard Deronjic establish a

22     telephone line with President Karadzic.  The president conveyed to him an

23     encrypted order which read "Miroslav, the commodity must be in the

24     warehouse."  Deronjic claimed that he had understood the message as an

25     order to move the prisoners from Bratunac to a prison facility.  And he

Page 6482

 1     insisted several times with Mr. Beara for that to be done pursuant to the

 2     order.  Eventually, Mr. Beara unwillingly said that he would comply.

 3        Q.   Sir, for the future, let me reminds you that I will like to

 4     receive short precise answers to my questions.  Is that understood?

 5             Now, I have a set of follow-up questions with what you just said.

 6     Let me start with Colonel Beara, you indicated that you never met him

 7     before.  How did he look like?

 8        A.   He was a big man, 190 centimetres tall with a big head and grey

 9     hair.  What I noticed about him was that he was in civilian clothes.  I

10     can't tell you for sure what kind of civilian clothes, but I'm sure they

11     were civilian clothes.

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.

13             Now, you also indicated that at some point Mr. Deronjic spoke to

14     President Karadzic.  Now, did you speak to President Karadzic that night?

15        A.   No, no, I didn't speak with President Karadzic, and I was not

16     present when Mr. Deronjic spoke with him.

17        Q.   And lastly, you said that you indicated that "eventually

18     Mr. Beara unwillingly said that he would comply."  Now, did he say that

19     to you personally?

20        A.   He said that to Deronjic, and I was present because the

21     conversation was between the two of them.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Cannata, but I thought earlier you had

23     indicated that you said something like that was the first time -- I can't

24     remember what you said, but telephone line with President Karadzic.  Can

25     you repeat that, the sentence on the transcript doesn't look complete.

Page 6483

 1     Earlier when you related that the boss had given instructions and that

 2     the boss was General Mladic, and you said when Deronjic returned to the

 3     office the argument and quarrel continued and then that was the first

 4     time that I, and then telephone line with President Karadzic.  Can you

 5     just explain that sentence.  Do you remember that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  It was not a good

 7     translation.  Mr. Deronjic said then that he had spoken on the telephone

 8     with President Karadzic and that at that time after he explained what the

 9     situation in Bratunac was, he received instructions from Karadzic in

10     code.  I didn't speak with Karadzic, but Mr. Deronjic did.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But what was happening the first time?  You said

12     "that was the first time that I telephone line with President Karadzic."

13     This is what is transcribed here.  I'm trying to get exactly what you

14     said earlier.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I didn't say the first

16     time.  It's possibly a translation mistake.  I heard from Mr. Deronjic

17     then.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             Sorry, Mr. Cannata, you may proceed.

20             MR. CANNATA:  Can I have one moment to check the transcripts,

21     Your Honour.  Just one second.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By all means.  If you want to check what I was

23     asking him about, that's page 7, line 18 to 19.

24             MR. CANNATA:

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, what did you do after meeting with

Page 6484

 1     Mr. Deronjic and Colonel Beara?

 2        A.   I went to the police station in Bratunac for a little while, and

 3     after that, since I was very tired, I went to sleep.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now we are coming to the next day, the morning of the

 5     14th of July.  Can you tell us --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am sorry.  There's something that I would like

 7     to know.  This witness had gone to Mr. Deronjic to get instructions on

 8     what to do with the prisoners.  What were you instructed to do with the

 9     prisoners, sir?  There's been a quarrel between these two gentlemen, they

10     interpreted the message differently.  What instructions were you given?

11     That's what you had gone there for, isn't it, what to do with the

12     prisoners?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't ask for any instructions

14     from myself personally.  I received -- didn't get any order in that

15     sense.  The instructions or the orders were to the army for all detainees

16     to be relocated from Bratunac, I went to see Mr. Deronjic because at the

17     time I was concerned, the town was full of prisoners, and there was

18     nobody to secure them.  That is why I went as an intermediary to get

19     something from Mr. Deronjic about this, his opinion.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have testified that when you first went to

21     him, you wanted him to phone somebody higher up who can give you guidance

22     on what to do.  And I'm just wanting to know what guidance were you given

23     when you left there now.  Were you given any guidance at all on what to

24     do, or were you not?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't receive any instructions

Page 6485

 1     about what I should do because that was not in my jurisdiction.  Military

 2     prisoners are in the jurisdiction of the army, but at the end, Mr. Beara

 3     said that he was going to do what Mr. Karadzic ordered Mr. Deronjic.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Mr. Cannata.

 6             MR. CANNATA:

 7        Q.   Sir, we are now back to the 14th of July in the morning.  Can you

 8     tell us what did you do, what you did that day?

 9        A.   On the 14th at around 7.00 in the morning I arrived at the

10     Bratunac station because I had received information that the Minister of

11     Internal Affairs, Mr. Tomislav Kovac was going to visit Bratunac and

12     Srebrenica that day.  I had the intention to prepare for this visit.

13        Q.   And what happened when you arrived at the Bratunac station?

14        A.   I have to say that organisation was underway in terms of

15     organising vehicles by the army for the prisoners and to set up the

16     convoy which set off towards Zvornik.  And then at the time, again,

17     Colonel Beara approached me in front of the police station and that was

18     my second encounter with him.

19        Q.   What did he tell you?  What did Colonel Beara tell you?

20        A.   He repeated that on the next -- that the order of General Mladic

21     to him was to kill the prisoners, and he asked if I could set aside a few

22     trusty -- or trusted policemen who would be placed under his command in

23     order to carry out this task.

24             I said that I was not going to give any police officers,

25     policemen for that, and that as far as I understood, the order was not

Page 6486

 1     such and that I did not wish to participate in something like that.  He

 2     turned away angrily and left.

 3             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, sir.

 4             Your Honour, if I may have a moment to confer with my colleagues.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, sir.

 6             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MR. CANNATA:

 9        Q.   There is one minor point I wish to clarify with you.  When you

10     said -- you said that you answered to Colonel Beara by saying that the

11     order was not such, and you did not wish to participate in something like

12     that, and that's at line 23 and 24.  Now, whose order was this, the one

13     that you didn't want to participate to?

14        A.   It was the order from General Mladic.  I did not wish to take

15     part in the implementation of such an order.

16             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much, sir.

17             Your Honours, that concludes the examination-in-chief.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             Mr. Lukic.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic :

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vasic.  I'm attorney

22     Novak Lukic, and I am now I'm going to put some questions to you on

23     behalf of the Defence and Mr. Perisic.  Before I begin, I am going to ask

24     you to keep in mind that the two of us speak the same language, and we

25     understand each other.  And in order not to create problems for

Page 6487

 1     interpretations which I create frequently, for you to wait a little bit

 2     after my question before you put your answer, and I'm also going to wait

 3     a little bit after you answer before I start with my next question.

 4             First of all, I would like to clarify here.  I have what I

 5     received here regarding your statements to date.  You now, as far as I

 6     know, as far as I'm informed, are testifying before this Hague Tribunal

 7     in the capacity of a witness for the first time; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I have information that to date, you spoke with representatives

10     of The Hague Tribunal for a total of six times from the period of 2000

11     until 2003.  Is this more or less correct?

12        A.   More or less, yes.

13        Q.   So the most recent interview with representatives of The Hague

14     Tribunal was held in June 2003 here at the Hague Tribunal; do you recall

15     that?

16        A.   Yes, that is correct.

17        Q.   You also had proofing for this testimony of yours.  I received

18     notes about that, and I'm exclusively asking you about these so-called

19     interviews.

20             I also have a record of your interrogation at the public security

21     centre in Bijeljina in August 2003 in the capacity of a witness; do you

22     recall that?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Then you had an interview on the 19th of September, 2005, as a

25     suspect in proceedings before I assumed the Court for war crimes of the

Page 6488

 1     court in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  You were interviewed by Prosecutor

 2     Ibro Bulic; do you recall that?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4        Q.   And you were also interviewed in the capacity of a witness in

 5     proceedings before the court in Bosnia and Herzegovina versus

 6     Petar Mitrovic et al.  This was in January 2007; do you recall that?

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8        Q.   Did you provide any other statements perhaps, or is this all?

 9        A.   On the 9th of April of this year, I also testified before the

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina court in the case of Tomic and Vukovic.

11        Q.   What is this case about?

12        A.   It's about Kravica, also July 1995.

13        Q.   So it relates to the events in Srebrenica?

14        A.   Yes, that is correct.

15        Q.   When was this?

16        A.   On the 9th of April of this year, 2009.

17        Q.   Is that all?

18        A.   I also testified -- well, this has to do with Srebrenica.

19        Q.   Did you provide any other statements regarding Srebrenica?

20        A.   As far as I know, no.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   In other cases that have nothing to do with Srebrenica, do you

24     recall giving statements or testifying, and if so, when was this?

25        A.   Except for Srebrenica, I provided statements in relation to the

Page 6489

 1     events in Zvornik in 1992.  This was on four occasions.  The first time

 2     was, I think, in 2002 to Hague investigators; then to the cantonal

 3     Prosecutor's Office from Tuzla; then to the special Prosecutor in

 4     Belgrade since three of the accused from Zvornik are being tried there;

 5     and the fourth time I testified on the 5th of February of this year in

 6     Belgrade in connection with the trial of those two.  All of those things

 7     relate to events from 1992.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that I have a

 9     problem that, first of all, has do with the statement from April 2009,

10     which if it has to do with the same events, the Prosecutor should have

11     provided it to us.  I don't know if they have it.  But this would be then

12     in accordance with Rule 66, and I assume that any statement relating to

13     this witness could be useful regardless in which way.  It should have

14     been furnished to us by the Prosecution, I don't know.  If the Prosecutor

15     -- I don't have information if we ever received these statements.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know whether the Prosecution has this.

17     When I read the transcript it looks like this is a statement -- it's

18     testimony on the 9th of April this year in Bosnia-Herzegovina, not here.

19     I don't know whether this Prosecution has it, the transcript.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Because I received his testimony from

21     the Prosecutor before the court in Bosnia and Herzegovina about these

22     events from 2007 when I was receiving witness statements from other cases

23     conducted before domestic courts that touched upon cases that are also

24     being tried before this Tribunal, I received that statement too.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you saying that the witness made a statement

Page 6490

 1     on the 9th of April, 2009?  Or which statement is this that you are

 2     saying you don't have?  And on the same.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] His testimony -- his testimony before

 4     the court in Bosnia-Herzegovina from April of 2009 regarding events, as

 5     he said now, in Kravica.  I don't have that record.  I have the record

 6     from 2007, however, where he also testified evidently before that

 7     Tribunal relating to the events in Srebrenica.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, what is your problem?  Your problem is you

 9     don't have that statement.  I don't know whether your colleague has it.

10     It was not in this court.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Exactly.  It's not before this Court,

12     but I assume that the Prosecutor was obliged to provide us what that

13     statement.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would he know about it?

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata, are you able it to answer to these

17     questions, I don't know whether you do know or don't know what happens in

18     other courts.

19             MR. CANNATA:  Certainly, Your Honour.  The Prosecution has no

20     possession of these transcripts, otherwise we would have disclosed them

21     as we did with the remaining and the other proceedings concerning this

22     witness.  So I haven't seen these transcript as well, so we don't have it

23     either.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  There you go, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the Prosecutor pursuant

Page 6491

 1     to Rule 66 and 68 is obliged to provide us with all statements of a

 2     specific witness when he comes to testify.  I cannot now accept

 3     circumstances that if the Prosecution has no knowledge about that and the

 4     witness did give --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In a long time I haven't read both Rule 66 and

 6     Rule 68, but I want to believe that the Prosecution can only give that

 7     which he has possession of.  If he doesn't have it, he doesn't have it.

 8     And if he doesn't know anything about it, he doesn't know anything about

 9     it.

10             Now, let me read you, sir, if you will, Rule 66(a)(ii) says:

11             "Subject to the provisions of Rule 53 and 69, the Prosecutor

12     shall make available to the Defence in the language which the accused

13     understands, 2, within the time-limit prescribed by the Trial Chamber or

14     by the pre-trial judge appointed pursuant to Rule 65 ter copies of the

15     statement of all witnesses whom the Prosecutor intends to call to testify

16     at trial and copies of all transcripts and written statements taken in

17     accordance with Rule 92 bis, Rule 92 ter, and Rule 92.  Copies of

18     statements of additional Prosecution witnesses shall be made available to

19     the Defence when the decision is made to call those witnesses."

20             Now, I don't know whether the Prosecution is expected to find all

21     statement that is this witness has made to all courts in the world.  He

22     says he doesn't know anything about it.  How can he avail to you if he

23     doesn't have it?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that actually

25     it is in accordance with any bona fide action, that if somebody is

Page 6492

 1     bringing a witness to testify together with the witness, that party needs

 2     to find out whether he testified previously and where.  And this is part

 3     of the practice of this court and other courts.  And usually during

 4     proofing it is customary to ask the witness if he testified and where he

 5     testified.

 6             I understand if we are talking about a traffic or a car accident;

 7     that's understandable.  But if you are preparing a witness to testify in

 8     a trial such as this, I mean, I don't know how I can find out about

 9     something like this.

10             I understand, Your Honours, that what this witness testified

11     about based on what I saw in the records, the witness testified about

12     facts which were also the topic of the interview by the investigators of

13     the Prosecutor's Office.  So it's perhaps natural if they spoke with the

14     witness on six occasions that they would also know and find out from the

15     witness if he testified in other cases as well.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When was the last they spoke to him, before

17     proofing him for testimony today?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In 2003 is the interview that I have.

19     In 2003.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And then the witness testified this year, last

21     month, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  How would they know if they interviewed

22     him in 2003 that he was going to testify on the 9th of April, 2009?

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I assume they could have asked him

24     when they got in touch with him, when they brought him here to testify.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, Mr. Cannata, did you ask him whether he

Page 6493

 1     testified on the 9th of April?

 2             MR. CANNATA:  No, I did not, sir.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If they had reason to ask, they would ask.  If

 4     they don't have reason to ask, they don't ask.  And if he doesn't

 5     volunteer, he doesn't volunteer.  The fact of the matter is from what I

 6     hear from Mr. Cannata, he is as ignorant about this testimony as you are.

 7     So he is not using that testimony in this case.  If you want to use, it's

 8     up to you if you want to use it.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I could use it.  I don't have

10     those records.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Neither does the Prosecution.  My problem is how

12     do you expect the Prosecution to give you that which they don't have?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the Prosecution, with

14     all due diligence should always establish before the arrival of a witness

15     if that witness can provide something more.  That is how I understand

16     that the parties to the proceedings should act.

17             I will continue, Your Honours, I have just found out from the

18     Prosecution that they don't have this statement, and I acknowledge that.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Let's clarify these things, Mr. Vasic.  I think this was not

22     heard before the Tribunal, but I have that from your previous statements,

23     the transcript is clear here and your position.  Since when did you --

24     when did you begin to perform the duty of the chief of the public

25     security centre?

Page 6494

 1        A.   I received the decision by the Minister of the Internal Affairs

 2     as chief of the station on the 27th of April, 1994, and I performed those

 3     duties until the 11th of March, 1998.

 4        Q.   At that post?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You said earlier in answering Mr. Cannata which municipality your

 7     centre covered, so as I understood -- how many Public Security Centres

 8     were there in Republika Srpska at the time?

 9        A.   Nine.

10        Q.   Your centre was centre number 5?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   As part of these municipalities covered by your centre, there was

13     a difference between a police station and a Public Security Station, what

14     was this difference?

15        A.   The difference was in that the police stations were run by a

16     person who was a police station commander, and they were usually

17     established in small places like Osmaci and Skelani; whereas other

18     municipalities had Public Security Stations led by the head of the Public

19     Security Station.  In addition to him, this station had also commander of

20     the station.

21        Q.   Who was your superior in the MUP, your immediate superior?

22        A.   According to the functional line, the head of the public security

23     department was the next according to the rank.  At the time that was

24     Milan Kokarasik [phoen].  Besides him -- or next to him was the minister

25     of the interior.

Page 6495

 1        Q.   That was Tomislav Kovac at the time; right?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   During your day-to-day work to whom did you submit reports?

 4        A.   In the course of my day-to-day duties, the reports were for the

 5     most part addressed to the public security department and the office of

 6     the minister.  The situation was such that because due to the war, the

 7     cabinet of the minister was very often in Pale, and the ministry of

 8     public security were in Bijeljina, and therefore, we had to send reports

 9     to both entities.

10        Q.   Can you tell us, now you explained to a Prosecutor a little, but

11     you needn't go into too many details.  Can you explain how come that you

12     happen to be in Bratunac and Srebrenica on the 12th of July?

13        A.   Pursuant to Mr. Kovac's order the minister of the interior,

14     number 40755, dated 12 July, I was given a task to form a Public Security

15     Station in Srebrenica for the purpose of providing protection of the

16     property of enterprises.  Acting according to this order, I went to

17     Bratunac.

18        Q.   You had known Mr. Miroslav Deronjic from before, or had you only

19     heard of him?

20        A.   I met Mr. Deronjic after the security centre had been formed,

21     which would be sometime in May 1994 because that was my first visit to

22     Bratunac because Bratunac was under this centre.  I went there to consult

23     with the local authorities relating to the election of a managerial post,

24     and that was the first time that I met Mr. Deronjic.

25        Q.   Were you aware that he was a well-established person within the

Page 6496

 1     SDS, that he was a high-ranking official of the SDS?

 2        A.   Yes, I was.

 3        Q.   Were you aware at the time, that is to say on the 12th of July

 4     when you arrived in Bratunac and Srebrenica, that he had been appointed

 5     civilian commissioner for Srebrenica by Mr. Karadzic?

 6        A.   In one item of that dispatch, it was written that I should

 7     establish cooperation with Mr. Deronjic, and upon my arrival in the

 8     field, I was informed that he had been appointed civilian commissioner.

 9        Q.   As mentioned in your interviews, you were also present at the

10     meeting in the Fontana hotel on the morning of the 12th of July.  Can you

11     please explain how it came about for you to be in that meeting, and who

12     else was there.

13        A.   The head of the station Josipovic had received an invitation to

14     attend the meeting, and as the highest superior officer after him, I

15     joined him and went to that meeting.  The meeting had been set up,

16     although I learned that later, so the meeting had been set up on the

17     evening of the 11th with representatives of the Dutch UNPROFOR and with

18     the civilian delegation of the Srebrenica Muslims.  Also present at that

19     meeting were the military leadership of VRS, that is to say,

20     General Mladic and General Krstic.  Representatives of the civilian

21     authority or the civilian leadership were Mr. Miroslav Deronjic and

22     Ljubo Simic, and also there was a three-member delegation of the civilian

23     population of Srebrenica, and finally there were representatives of the

24     DutchBat.

25        Q.   With regard to Mr. Deronjic and this meeting, did you conclude

Page 6497

 1     that he was acquainted with these Muslim representatives who attended the

 2     meeting?

 3        A.   Judging by the way how he talked with the lady who was sitting

 4     opposite him, I concluded that they had known each other from before.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us just look at one portion of

 6     your statement.  Can we please see 1D0207 on the screens.  Page 12 in

 7     English and 11 in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   I suppose that you had an opportunity to review your previous

 9     statements during proofing, and I also assume that you had no objections

10     to your statements, otherwise we would have heard from the OTP.

11             I'm going to read quite a short portion.  This is a your

12     interview given on the 9th of July, 2000.  I'm going to read the central

13     part of your description of this meeting where you say the following:

14             "... so the active part of that meeting took Miroslav, and I

15     noticed that he addressed very correctly towards Muslim representatives

16     and I realised, noticed that they knew each other from before the

17     conversation they had."

18             Do you remember stating this?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which line is this?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll tell you immediately.

22     That's line 12 in the English.  [In English] No, no, sorry, sorry, sorry.

23     [Interpretation] I think that this is a wrong page in English.  The B/C/S

24     page is correct, but I may have given you a wrong page in English.  It

25     could be the previous one.

Page 6498

 1        Q.   "And General Mladic and this Dutch colonel took part in that."

 2             What I would like to highlight from this meeting was that Mladic

 3     wanted to know where the army was; he wanted the army to surrender their

 4     weapons, while Miroslav was addressing mainly the civilian requests, that

 5     is to say, the women and children assembled in Potocari to state their

 6     wishes and to say whether they wanted to stay where they were or whether

 7     they wanted to be evacuated.

 8             Do you remember these words uttered by Deronjic?  Was there any

 9     mention in his conversation with the representatives of the civilians

10     that he made an offer for them to stay or go, according to their wishes?

11        A.   I remember that part of the conversation, and that is how it

12     exactly went.  He said that he had been authorised to offer them these

13     two options, to stay or to go.

14        Q.   Very well.  Now, let's move to another topic for awhile.  You

15     said that you spent most of the day on the 13th in Srebrenica.  This is

16     what I deduced from your previous testimony; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   On that day, the 13th, where were you in Srebrenica?  Were you in

19     town or which locations?

20        A.   We went around the town and we spent most of the time in the

21     building that before the war was the headquarters of the public security

22     station.

23        Q.   On that day, did you see any traces of any crimes, killings

24     committed in Srebrenica, or any other crime for that matter?

25        A.   While walking around the town in the vicinity of the demolished

Page 6499

 1     mosque, the only thing that we noticed --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear what

 3     the witness saw.  Can he please repeat.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness is requested to repeat himself, the

 5     interpreters didn't hear what he was saying.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While walking around the town in

 7     the vicinity of a demolished mosque in the town, we saw a dead body of a

 8     woman.  Apart from that, we didn't see any other victims or casualties in

 9     Srebrenica.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   On that day did you hear any stories in Srebrenica about any

12     crimes?

13        A.   No, I didn't.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I would now like to move to an entirely new topic, so

15     therefore with your leave, I would suggest that we take a break now so

16     that can start this new topic after the break.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very well then.  We'll take a break and come back

18     at 4.00.  Adjourned.

19                           --- Recess taken at 3.28 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23        Q.   Just a few short questions relating to these meetings on the 13th

24     and the 14th.  When you arrived at Deronjic's office, and I'm talking

25     about the meeting that took place around midnight, these two gentlemen

Page 6500

 1     were already there in Deronjic's office; is that right?

 2        A.   [No interpretation]

 3        Q.   Before you enter Deronjic's office, there's another office, do

 4     you remember that?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the witness answered your previous

 6     question, but the interpreters probably didn't hear it.  Could you --

 7     could the witness please answer that question first.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Sir, can you please wait awhile before you give your answer.  I'm

10     going to ask you again.  When you arrived late on the 13th on Deronjic's

11     office, when you arrived again around midnight, you saw Deronjic and

12     Beara there, they had already been there; is that correct?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   Only these two men were in the office at that moment; is that

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   Do you recall since you went there several times that the --

18     before that office there is another office that leads to Deronjic's

19     office?

20        A.   I don't remember that honestly.

21        Q.   Very well.  Do you remember that on that night when you arrived,

22     do you remember seeing Momir Nikolic there?

23        A.   I'm certain that Momir Nikolic was not there.

24        Q.   This is what I found in your statements, only I wanted that to be

25     confirmed.  By the way, you did know him at the time?

Page 6501

 1        A.   No, I didn't know him, nor have I met him at any point in July

 2     1995.

 3        Q.   But when you say that you were so sure that he was not there, you

 4     knew how he looked like, that's why you are saying that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were there more than two people in this office

 7     when you got there?  Was it more than Deronjic and Beara only?  Was there

 8     any other person?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only saw Deronjic and Beara at

10     that time.  I don't remember, or rather, I don't know if there had been

11     anyone there before I arrived.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you got there, how many people did you find

13     in the office?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat, I found only Deronjic and

15     Beara.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You have just described to us your conversation with Beara that

18     took place on the morning of the 14th when he asked for the men, and you

19     told us what reply you gave to him.  Later on when you met Minister

20     Kovac, did you relate your conversation with Beara, and we know that

21     Minister Kovac came to Bratunac that morning; is that right?

22        A.   Immediately after the minister's arrival, Minister Kovac's

23     arrival, I informed him about my meeting and the content of the

24     conversation and the content actually of what I heard from Beara.

25        Q.   Did he react at all?

Page 6502

 1        A.   The minister said that the military prisoners were under the

 2     jurisdiction of the army, that that was not our job, and that we

 3     shouldn't interfere with these matters.

 4        Q.   Do you know that in 1996 President Karadzic ordered an

 5     investigation to be conducted relating to all the circumstances

 6     concerning the events in Srebrenica?

 7        A.   I know that a sort of commission was involved in that and that I

 8     think that one -- a member of that commission was from the Ministry of

 9     Interior.

10        Q.   As far as I know, this is what was said publicly by Mr. Karadzic,

11     that is that he wanted all the circumstances surrounding Srebrenica to be

12     investigated; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   From your superiors in the MUP, you received no task concerning

15     the investigation, the facts relating to Srebrenica throughout the period

16     that you occupied that post?

17        A.   No, I didn't.

18        Q.   You were also never contacted with regard to the work of that

19     commission in terms of asking you to make any statements or do any -- or

20     make any other contributions?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   After these few days that you spent in Bratunac and Srebrenica,

23     you went back to Zvornik, and until 1998 you occupied the post of the

24     head of the Zvornik public security centre; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6503

 1        Q.   And all these police stations in Srebrenica, Bratunac, and others

 2     that you had mentioned remained under your jurisdiction; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   During the whole period while you held this office, did you

 5     receive from your superior any task to carry out any investigation

 6     regarding Srebrenica until the end of your office term?

 7        A.   I didn't receive any task of that nature.

 8        Q.   These police stations that existed in the territory covered by

 9     your centre, had each a separate crime investigation service whose duty

10     and responsibility was to investigate criminal offences; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, there were services within each station, public security

12     station, that were involved in detecting, so to speak, regular crime,

13     white-collar crime, public disorder, et cetera.

14        Q.   Very well.  I think that the same question was put to you in an

15     interview, and if necessary we can call up this particular page.  But

16     tell me this:  Did you hear anything about reburial from primary graves

17     in the autumn of 1995?  Tell me first, did you receive any official

18     contact with that regard or not?

19        A.   Nobody has ever sent any request to me concerning this issue, and

20     I was not involved in that, and I claim that with full responsibility.

21        Q.   At the time when this was going on, you knew nothing about that?

22        A.   No, I didn't.

23        Q.   I'm going to put a couple of questions now that are not directly

24     related to what you testified about, but which are of interest to me in

25     my Defence in view of the post that you were performing.

Page 6504

 1             We heard from you that from 1994, is that correct, you were the

 2     chief of the public security centre in Zvornik; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes, from the 27th of April.

 4        Q.   And there was a border crossing in Zvornik, it was a bridge

 5     dividing or separating the Republika Srpska from the Federal Republic of

 6     Yugoslavia; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  And it's still that way today.

 8        Q.   And on one side it's Zvornik, and then on the Serbian side there

 9     is Mali Zvornik, and you had the police and the border services there at

10     the border crossing; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, they were then, and they are there now.

12        Q.   You are probably aware that the leadership of the Federal

13     Republic of Yugoslavia from August 1994 imposed sanctions on

14     Republika Srpska.

15        A.   Yes, I am aware of that.

16        Q.   And I assume that you are aware that the sanctions caused quite a

17     lot of dissatisfaction in Republika Srpska among the political

18     leadership, as well as among the population; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And on the Republika Srpska side of the border crossing, were

21     there any observers of the international community there when the

22     crossing was set up?

23        A.   I think that there were.  I really cannot say which period this

24     was in, but I think that after the border crossing was established, there

25     were foreign observers there, yes.

Page 6505

 1        Q.   I assume that as chief of the public security centre you received

 2     regular daily information in that period after the sanctions were

 3     imposed, and these were reports from, let's say, subordinate police

 4     units, and the border crossings?

 5        A.   Yes, there were reports about events that had happened the

 6     previous three or four hours.

 7        Q.   Did you receive any information in that period that the Army of

 8     Yugoslavia violated the embargo, in any way participated in the violation

 9     of the embargo introduced by the FRY towards [Realtime transcript read in

10     error "by the"] Republika Srpska?

11        A.   I didn't have information like that.  I never heard of anything

12     like that.

13        Q.   Did you get any information that representatives of international

14     institutions --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This last question that you asked, I'm not quite

16     sure if you look at page 31, line 11, it ends off introduced by the FRY

17     by the Republika Srpska, I'm not sure which is which between the FRY and

18     the Republika Srpska.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no, I think that it's probably

20     wrong.  The embargo imposed by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia towards

21     Republika Srpska in 1994.  I think that the witness and I understood each

22     other, so.

23        Q.   Do you recall if you received any information that international

24     observers had any complaints or objections in terms of this embargo?

25        A.   No, I never received information of that sort.

Page 6506

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much,

 2     I've completed by cross-examination of this witness.

 3             Sir, thank you very much.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata.

 5             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have a minor point at

 6     page 20, line 4, of today's transcript.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Cannata:

 8        Q.   Sir, you have been asked at line 20 by my learned friend that:

 9             "When did you begin to perform the duty of the chief of the

10     public security centre?"

11             And your answer was at line 3:

12             "I received the decision by the ministry -- the Minister of

13     Internal Affairs as of the chief of the station on the 27th of April

14     1994."

15             Do I have to understand that you meant the chief of the centre?

16        A.   A decision on the appointment to the post of chief of the centre

17     was issued by the Minister of Internal Affairs, because he was the only

18     one authorised to sign such decisions.

19        Q.   So what post did you -- were you assigned to with the decision on

20     the minister of interior on the 27 of April, 1994, for clarity of the

21     record?

22        A.   It's the post of the chief of the public security centre in

23     Zvornik.

24             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much, sir.

25             I don't have any more questions, Your Honour.  Thank you.

Page 6507

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2                           Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] I would like to ask one or two

 4     questions, Witness.

 5             According to your testimony on the 13th of July in the evening,

 6     you found out when you met Beara that he intended to kill all the

 7     prisoners according to the order received by Mladic; is that right?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] When you found out about it, who

10     were you with?  Were you with Deronjic?

11        A.   Mr. Beara and I were in the room, but after Mr. Deronjic

12     returned, the conversation continued along those lines.

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] The conversation that Mr. Deronjic

14     had with Karadzic, was that before or after?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The conversation that Deronjic had

16     with President Karadzic was done before.  I don't know exactly when the

17     conversation took place, but I know that the conversation took place

18     before.

19             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And according to your memory, and

20     if you don't remember tell us, do you know if Deronjic talked to Karadzic

21     to tell him that Mladic intended to kill all the prisoners?

22        A.   Deronjic called President Karadzic to inform him about a large

23     number of prisoners that were brought to Bratunac, and to ask him for

24     instructions about that.  I don't have information that he talked about

25     what you are asking me about.

Page 6508

 1             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, but according to you, did

 2     Deronjic already know when he came to talk to you after Beara told him

 3     what Mladic's orders were?

 4        A.   Deronjic knew that.

 5             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  I have another

 6     question, and please tell me if you do not know the answer, please tell

 7     us.

 8             This order that Mladic took to kill all the prisoners was not a

 9     very confidential thing.  It was not a strictly confidential decision

10     because you were told, Deronjic was told about it, and you, yourself,

11     were not even in the army.

12        A.   I cannot comment on whether it was confidential, of a

13     confidential nature, and when General Mladic said this to Beara, all I'm

14     conveying is -- and that I know is correct is that I heard from Beara.

15             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] But Beara didn't tell everyone

16     obviously, but he was informing other people as well, not only the

17     members of his army, the military men of his army.  Very well.  Thank you

18     very much.  That's all I wanted to know.

19             JUDGE DAVID:  At page 27 of the transcript, when responding to

20     questions by Mr. Lukic of the Defence, he asked you:

21             "You have just described to us your conversation with Beara that

22     took place on the morning of the 14th when he asked for the men and told

23     us what reply you gave to him.  Later on when you met Minister Kovac, did

24     you relate your conversation with Beara, and we know that Minister Kovac

25     came to Bratunac that morning; is that right?"

Page 6509

 1             My question is, did you refer to Minister Kovac all the details

 2     and the content of your conversation with Beara in an explicit manner?

 3        A.   Yes, I did precisely, the complete conversation.  In the evening,

 4     and in the -- in the morning and in the evening I conveyed to

 5     Minister Kovac.

 6             JUDGE DAVID:  Second question, Mr. Lukic asked you at page 28,

 7     line 2:

 8             "Did he react at all?"

 9             And your answer was:

10             "The minister said that the military prisoners were under the

11     jurisdiction of the army, that that was not our job, and that we should

12     not interfere with these matters."

13             When you said that he told you not to interfere with these

14     matters, what you understood at the time, could you elaborate on this,

15     was not your job, that you should not interfere with these matters?

16        A.   I understood that what the minister wanted to say was that the

17     military prisoners were under the jurisdiction of the military and not

18     under the jurisdiction of the police.  I can also add that it was his

19     opinion that because of tense relations between himself and Mr. Mladic,

20     and between the army and the police, it was important for us that we were

21     not authorised, or that the prisoners were not under our jurisdiction,

22     and that it was not really our concern what was going on, and not to

23     interfere.

24             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you very much.  No questions.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Judge.

Page 6510

 1             Just to follow up on the question by the Judge, am I right, did

 2     the military have their own police, what are called military police?

 3        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska did have military police within all

 4     of its units at the level of battalions and the level of corps and

 5     brigades.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.  You said at page 24, lines 22

 7     to 24, you said:

 8             "We went around --" or let me just -- the question put to you

 9     was:

10             "On that day, the 13th, where you were in Srebrenica, were you in

11     town or which locations?"

12             And you said:

13             "We went around the town, and we spent most of the time in the

14     building that before the war was the headquarters of the public security

15     station."

16             Do you remember that answer?

17        A.   Yes, correct.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just clear me in case I didn't hear you well.

19     Earlier today when you were asked by Mr. Cannata, I thought you had said

20     that the public security station in Srebrenica was established around or

21     just after the 12th or 13th of July?  Didn't you say so?

22        A.   Precisely.  The station was informed on the 12th of July, 1995.

23     That day, management team was allocated and a group of policemen were

24     assigned who were from that area to be part of that station.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  So the station was established after the

Page 6511

 1     12th of July?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What I don't understand is how do you then say

 4     that on the 13th you were in a building that used to be the headquarters

 5     of the public security station before the war if there hadn't been a

 6     public security station before the war?  How could there be a

 7     headquarters building?

 8        A.   Before the war, the police station was located in that building.

 9     Srebrenica had its own police station.  The police station is still

10     located in the same place now.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then there's something I don't understand.  If

12     there was a police station in Srebrenica before the war, why do you have

13     a establish a police station on instructions that you receive on the 12th

14     of July, 1995?  Are you duplicating police stations, or am I missing

15     something?

16        A.   Before the war, the police station operated in Srebrenica, and it

17     was a multi-ethnic one.  During the war there was a station that mainly

18     comprised the Muslim population, because the Serbs had been expelled.

19     After the departure of all Bosniak Muslims from Srebrenica, the station

20     was left empty, and I was given the assignment, because this was now the

21     territory under the control of the centre to form practically a new

22     public security station there.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By the 2th of July the Muslims had departed from

24     Srebrenica, is that your testimony?

25        A.   The civilian population was still in Potocari, but the evacuation

Page 6512

 1     was underway.  In the town itself there was no one.  There were no

 2     citizens.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Hence the instruction that you establish a police

 4     station?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  At page 20, lines 14 to 22,

 7     you were asked a question at line 14:

 8             "As part of these municipalities covered by your centre, there

 9     was a difference between a police station and a public security station.

10     What was this difference?"

11             And you said:

12             "The difference was in that the police stations were run by a

13     person who was a police station commander, and they were usually

14     established in small places like Osmaci and Skelani; whereas other

15     municipalities at public security stations led by the head of the public

16     security station, in addition to him, this station had also commander of

17     the station."

18             I still don't understand the difference between these two.  Did

19     these two, a police station and a public security station, perform the

20     same functions, or is there a difference in the functions they performed,

21     or in the department under which they fall?

22        A.   These are stations that perform the same work, but because of a

23     larger population and more problems, in larger cities additional

24     functions were introduced for the chief of the station who is the head of

25     the commander of the police station, the head of the criminal

Page 6513

 1     investigations unit, the communications units, and the legal

 2     administrative department.  So it's just another person in comparison to

 3     police stations where the volume of work is smaller and where the

 4     komandir is the one who actually leads or is at the head of the service.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would I be right to say what you are saying is a

 6     public security station is much bigger than a police station and has got

 7     greater responsibility?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, you could say that.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And the head of the public security station is

10     somebody who is called head of the public security station who is above a

11     commander, and the commander is the head of the police station; is that

12     it?

13        A.   Precisely.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             Any questions, Mr. Cannata?

16             MR. CANNATA:  Yes, Your Honour.  Just for the record the last

17     question asked by her honour Judge Picard was, indeed, answered by the

18     witness but not recorded on the transcript.  And, actually, it's at page

19     34, line 16.  Actually, line 15.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't see a question in that statement by the

21     Judge.  The Judge seems to be commenting, and she is not putting a

22     question to the witness.

23             MR. CANNATA:  I take the point.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, also no question but small intervention

Page 6514

 1     for transcript.  Page 37, line 21, you posed the question by the 12th of

 2     July.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page 37, line?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Line 21.  The transcript says 2nd.  12th, 12th.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 6             MR. LUKIC:  12, yes, 12.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that all?

 8             Thank you so much.

 9             Sir, that brings us to the end of your testimony.  Thank you so

10     much for coming to testify at the Tribunal.  You are now excused.  You

11     say stand down, and please travel well back home.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata?

15             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

16             MR. SAXON:  If I may, Your Honour, I note the time.  The next

17     witness, Mr. Butler, scheduled to begin tomorrow, he is presently in the

18     middle of a meeting with Mr. Harmon.  Would it be possible to adjourn

19     until tomorrow at 2.15 to start his evidence?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It will indeed be possible, sir, if you so ask.

21             MR. SAXON:  Yes, sir.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  We then stand adjourned to

23     tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, in courtroom II.  Court

24     adjourned.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.38 p.m.

Page 6515

 1                   to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of May, 2009, at

 2                           2.15 p.m.