Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6516

 1                           Tuesday, 26 May 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             May we have the appearances for today, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. HARMON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

15     counsel.  Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.  My name is

16     Mark Harmon, appearing with me is Carmela Javier.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.

18             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And for the Defence.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

21     everyone in and around the courtroom.  Daniela Tasic, Chad Mair,

22     Milos Androvic, Eric Tully, Tina Drolec, Novak Lukic, and I'm

23     Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of the Defence.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Just before we proceed just to

25     place on the record that the Chamber is sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis

Page 6517

 1     this afternoon as Judge David is unavailable.  He is held up in the Lukic

 2     and Lukic matter.

 3             Mr. Harmon.

 4             MR. HARMON:  We would call Richard Butler, Your Honour, as our

 5     next witness.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, sir.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, sir.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Will you please make

11     the declaration.

12             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

13     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you so much.  You

15     may be seated.

16                           WITNESS:  RICHARD BUTLER

17                           Examination by Mr. Harmon:

18        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Butler.  Could you state your full name and

19     spell your last name for the record?

20        A.   Yes, sir.  My name is Richard Butler, last name B-u-t-l-e-r.

21        Q.   Mr. Butler, did you provide me with a revised curriculum vitae

22     while you were here in The Hague?

23        A.   Yes, sir, I did.

24        Q.   Could I have displayed on the monitor, Your Honours, document

25     identification 0649-8346, please.

Page 6518

 1             Mr. Butler on the monitor in front of you is a document that at

 2     the top of which it says curriculum vitae 1 February, 2009, and has your

 3     name on it.  Is this a copy of the revised curriculum vitae that you

 4     provided me with?

 5        A.   Yes, sir, it is.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, could that be given an exhibit number,

 7     please.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's given a number, and may it please be --

 9     that's admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2386.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. HARMON:

13        Q.   Mr. Butler, this is an extensive curriculum vitae.  It's six

14     pages long.  I would rather summarize your qualifications, which are set

15     out in this curriculum vitae.  I'm going to identify a number of facts

16     from it, and I'm going to ask you merely to affirm if what I have said is

17     accurate.

18             So, first of all, Mr. Butler, your current occupation is a

19     criminal research specialist at the United States Department of Homeland

20     Security Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and you have been holding

21     that position since 2004.  Is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, sir, that is correct.

23        Q.   You are a professional -- you have been a professional

24     intelligence officer for 27 years, having served in a variety of military

25     intelligence and civilian law enforcement intelligence positions.  You

Page 6519

 1     have received intelligence training at the Federal Law Enforcement

 2     Training Centre and at the US Army Intelligence Centre and school.

 3             Is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   In respect of the events that occurred in Srebrenica, you have

 6     prepared a number of reports at the request of the Office of the

 7     Prosecutor.  You also provided expert testimony about the events in

 8     Srebrenica in the Krstic case, the Blagojevic and Djokic case, the

 9     Popovic et al case, and in the Krstic appeal before this Tribunal.

10             Is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, sir, it is.

12        Q.   In addition, Mr. Butler, you have been qualified as an expert

13     witness beside this court in US federal district court and US immigration

14     courts and in the Special War Crimes Chamber of the state court of Bosnia

15     and Herzegovina.

16             Is that correct?

17        A.   Yes sir, it has.

18             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I have prepared hard copies of

19     Mr. Butler's expert reports, and I would ask that -- Mr. Butler be

20     provided with copies of those reports so he can refer to them during the

21     course of his evidence, with the Court's consent, and I have discussed it

22     with the Defence, and they have no objection.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you confirm, Mr. Guy-Smith?

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, you may.

Page 6520

 1             MR. HARMON:

 2        Q.   Mr. Butler, I'm going to identify the six reports that are going

 3     to be -- that have been admitted into evidence pursuant to a

 4     Trial Chamber decision of 4 March 2009.  Reports that you prepared, and I

 5     will identify them, first of all, by exhibit number and then by title of

 6     the report.  There's P2244; which is the VRS corps command responsibility

 7     report; Prosecution Exhibit 2245, which is the Srebrenica military

 8     narrative Operation Krivaja; 2246, which is Srebrenica military narrative

 9     revised, Operation Krivaja 95; 2247, chapter 8 analytical addendum to the

10     Srebrenica military narrative revised; P2248, VRS brigade command

11     responsibility report; and P2249, VRS Main Staff command responsibility

12     report.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speaker please slow down.

14             MR. HARMON:  All right.  I apologise to the interpreters.

15        Q.   Mr. Butler, did you prepare each of those reports?

16        A.   Yes, sir, I did.

17        Q.   Now, I would like to focus on what I will call the narrative

18     reports which are P2245, P2246, and P2247.  First of all, Mr. Butler, in

19     respect of P2245 and P2246, did you direct my attention to an error that

20     was in each of those reports?

21        A.   Yes, sir, I did.

22             MR. HARMON:  If we could, first of all, have on the screen,

23     P2245, and if we could turn to page 21 of the English, and page 23 of the

24     B/C/S.

25             Well, I -- I'm not sure in 2245 if that is the ... it's page 21

Page 6521

 1     of the English in P2245.

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             MR. HARMON:  I'm informed that's page 28 of e-court.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm just --

 5             MR. HARMON:  It's paragraph 4.6 in the English.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excellent, thank you.  Just briefly, since you

 7     mentioned it, he directed your attention to an error, I have not received

 8     any proofing notes.  Are there any?

 9             MR. HARMON:  I sent an e-mail to you yesterday, identifying the

10     -- Ms. Javier did, identifying the error, and there are no proofing

11     notes.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Apart from that?

13             MR. HARMON:  Yeah.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay, very well.  Thank you so much.

15             MR. HARMON:

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, I would like to direct your attention, if I

17     could, to paragraph 4.6 in this report.

18             Can you identify the error and tell us what correction you would

19     like to make in paragraph 4.6.

20        A.   Yes, sir.  In paragraph 4.6, the second to the last sentence

21     referring to the presidents of the civilian commissioner for Srebrenica

22     Mr. Miroslav Deronjic and Ljubisav Simic needs to be struck, as well as

23     footnote citation 105.  That is incorrect.

24        Q.   All right.  Mr. Butler, if we turn to the Prosecution

25     Exhibit 2246, again, referring to paragraph 4.6.  And I will give you the

Page 6522

 1     e-court page.

 2             MR. HARMON:  Pages 40 and 41, please.

 3        Q.   Mr. Butler, paragraph 4.6, it goes over to the next page as well,

 4     but do you see an error in paragraph 4.6, and would you like to correct

 5     it?

 6        A.   Yes, sir.  Again, the second to the last sentence in the

 7     paragraph discussing the presence of Mr. Deronjic and Mr. Simic, that

 8     sentence needs to be struck, as well as footnote citation 215.

 9        Q.   So the identical error appeared in both reports?

10        A.   Yes, sir.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             With that correction completed, Mr. Butler, I'd like to turn to

13     Prosecution Exhibit 2245 again.  And in the introduction to that report,

14     you identified the tasks, the primary objectives, that you had been given

15     in respect of preparing this particular report.

16             Could you just refer to the introduction of this report and in

17     the -- identify, if you would do so, Mr. Butler, what your primary

18     objectives were in respect of the preparation of this report.

19        A.   Well, as noted in the second and third paragraph in the

20     introduction, my objectives in this particular report were related to

21     proceedings of the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Krstic.  In that respect,

22     my first mission was to detail the linkage with respect to the

23     Drina Corps commander, his staff, his subordinate units with the criminal

24     acts as charged in the indictment.

25             The second objective dealt with the issue of the specific role

Page 6523

 1     and responsibilities of General Krstic within the framework of the army

 2     of the Republika Srpska.  First as the Chief of Staff and

 3     Deputy Commander of the Drina Corps, and later as the commander of the

 4     Drina Corps during the period of the crimes.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, you prepared a revised narrative, which is

 6     P2246, about two years later.

 7             Can you tell us what the objectives were in respect of P2246.

 8        A.   Yes, sir.  Those are laid out in the third and fourth paragraph.

 9     This revised narrative was in response to the trials of Vidoje Blagojevic

10     and Dragan Jokic, both of whom were individuals at the brigade level,

11     rather than corps level for the same crime base.  So my goal was to then

12     to examine in detail the issue of their particular roles and

13     responsibilities within the army of the Republika Srpska during the

14     period within the context of a brigade, as well as to determine what

15     linkage there was with respect to documents and other materials dealing

16     with the involvement of those particular brigades with the crime scenes

17     as charged.

18             The third component of this was also to continue to deal with the

19     issue of the ongoing appeal of General Krstic, and in that respect to

20     update information that had come in the possession of the Office of the

21     Prosecutor relating to issues that were active under appeal, particularly

22     with respect to the point in time that he assumed command of the Drina

23     Corps.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, in your introduction in Prosecution Exhibit 2246

25     on page 1V, middle of the page, you identify the methodology that you

Page 6524

 1     used as primarily a document based analytical approach.

 2             Was this methodology used in both reports?

 3        A.   Yes, sir, it was.

 4        Q.   Can you explain what you mean when you say a document based

 5     analytical approach?

 6        A.   In describing it, it represents the fact that the material

 7     available that I used for my military analysis for the most part

 8     consisted of documents and other like information that was in the

 9     possession of the Office of the Prosecutor.  Those included military

10     records from the various military units of the Drina Corps.  We call

11     documents, but it -- somewhat separate is the intercepts of Bosnian Serb

12     army communications that were in transcript form that we had possession

13     of.  It included material derived from open source media.  Could be

14     newspapers, it could be videos, could be other types of information like

15     that.  What it does not include as a general rule is witness statements

16     or witness testimony, because I was cognizant obviously at the time that

17     it is the role of the Trial Chamber to ultimately hear that type of

18     testimony from the witnesses involved.  So where I do incorporate witness

19     testimony into these narrative reports, it is only for the purpose of

20     setting the context of the act as it occurred.  It is not for individuals

21     to rely on as either a definitive version of what happened or why.  It

22     just sets the context so that when I explain and lay out where the

23     documents and where intercepts and where other pieces of information fit

24     in context to that, the reader has the -- the ability to do that.

25        Q.   Now when you say open source, did that include military

Page 6525

 1     magazines?  Magazines from the VRS, for example?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I request that Mr. Harmon does not lead.

 3             MR. HARMON:  I'm trying to get through this element fairly

 4     quickly.  I will withdraw the question.

 5        Q.   Can you expand on what you mean by open source materials,

 6     Mr. Butler?  Be more detailed and more precise.

 7        A.   Yes, sir.  It would include print media from western sources.  It

 8     would include print media from Bosnia, print media from Serbia and the

 9     Republika Srpska.  It did include military magazines.  It included

10     civilian magazines.  It included video that was both broadcast on air as

11     well as private video that was taken from a number of sources.  It would

12     include that broader genre of information that's normally associated with

13     media reporting.

14        Q.   And, Mr. Butler, what selection criteria did you use when you

15     were going through this -- this group of documents that you considered?

16        A.   The selection criteria was only limited on the basis of the

17     actual conduct of the crime as charged by the Office of the Prosecutor.

18     It's not my goal in either of these reports to lay out either a

19     definitive history of East Bosnia or even the Srebrenica crime base.  So

20     to that respect, the initial goal as reflected by the early versions of

21     the narrative reflect the period of 1 through 30 July 1995 as the period

22     of the initial crimes related to Srebrenica and follow on through August,

23     September, October, because of the involvement of various units of the

24     Drina Corps in the process of concealing the crimes by exhuming and then

25     later reburying the victims of those crime.  It does not go into great

Page 6526

 1     detail into the events that occurred prior to that, only to set up

 2     context, or after that.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, you arrived at a number of conclusions in your

 4     report.  And let me, first of all, direct you to the paragraph 1218 which

 5     is in Prosecution Exhibit 2245.  In this conclusion, Mr. Butler, I'd like

 6     you to explain to the Trial Chamber what conclusions you reached in

 7     respect of the VRS Main Staff's involvement?

 8        A.   Can you repeat the paragraph, sir.

 9        Q.   Paragraph 1218 of Prosecution Exhibit 2245.

10        A.   Yes, sir.  The conclusion that I reached with respect to the

11     Main Staff was that they were a significant participant in the planning,

12     decisions, and execution of the events that were surrounding the criminal

13     acts as charged.

14             They issued orders.  Their officers were on the ground as these

15     orders occurred, in many cases.  The orders that they issued to their

16     subordinate formations, the Drina Corps, were acted upon and responded

17     to, either directly by the Drina Corps or by their subordinate

18     formations.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, what conclusions, Mr. Butler, did you reach in

20     respect of whether the Drina Corps members were active in the planning

21     and execution of the crimes committed during the time-frame you were

22     looking at?

23        A.   The same, sir.  The Drina Corps was part of this entire planning

24     and execution process.

25        Q.   And if I can direct your attention in that report to

Page 6527

 1     paragraph 13.23, is that where you set out your conclusions or a portion

 2     of your conclusions?

 3        A.   Yes, sir.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And did you come to any conclusions in this context about

 5     whether the chain of command in the Drina Corps to the Main Staff was

 6     functioning?

 7        A.   Yes, sir.  And, in fact, my conclusion was that during the period

 8     that the chain of command, as organised in the VRS along the former JNA

 9     lines was functioning as it was supposed to during the period.

10        Q.   Okay.  Now, Mr. Butler, did you after reviewing the documentation

11     that was available to you, come to any conclusions in respect of whether

12     the crimes that are described in -- in the Krstic indictment and the

13     Blagojevic indictment dealing with mass executions and dealing with the

14     forcible transfer of the population from Potocari, did you reach any

15     conclusions as to whether those crimes were planned and organised?

16        A.   Yes, sir, I did, and it was my conclusion that those crimes were,

17     in fact, planned and organised in a very sophisticated manner.

18        Q.   Now, just to enlighten the Trial Chamber, what when you say --

19     when you refer to your conclusion, "these were planned and organised

20     crimes," can you set forth the elements that led to you believe and what

21     -- led to you believe these were planned and organised crimes?

22        A.   Yes, sir.  The scope of the crimes involved, as well as the

23     variety of military units and staff officers and functions that were part

24     of them relates to just how wide the involvement of both the planning and

25     the execution was of the Drina Corps.

Page 6528

 1             For example, the widespread effort to gather the requisite

 2     transportation and the fuel that had to go behind both moving the

 3     civilian population out of Potocari, as well as then moving the prisoners

 4     who were detained in and around Bratunac to the execution sites.  The

 5     efforts of the military police as well as military units to escort these

 6     prisoners and then to guard them at various locations, schools in the

 7     Zvornik brigade area.  The efforts of various officers in attempting to

 8     find individuals who would be actually engaged in the execution of these

 9     individuals and to ensure that they were secured in the schools.  The

10     efforts of these same officers to organise the engineering equipment

11     necessary to bury the mass quantities of bodies on the battlefield -- or

12     not at the battlefield but at these execution sites, as well as later on

13     the efforts of these same officers, once the crimes had been discovered

14     by the international community and publicised to go in and re-exhume

15     these bodies and bury them in more remote locations.

16             So from a military perspective, when you have to look at the wide

17     variety of tasks that have to happen for a military organisation to

18     accomplish that, it is a fairly wide scope of the unit.  And then, of

19     course, when you have the intercept information, the intercepts confirm

20     that many officers who are key officers on the Drina Corps staff as well

21     as the Main Staff were actively involved in that process.

22        Q.   Now, in the course of the preparation of the Krstic report, did

23     -- was there an issue and did you consider the issue of when

24     General Krstic assumed command of the Drina Corps?

25        A.   Yes, sir, there was an issue, and I certainly did consider it.

Page 6529

 1        Q.   And what conclusion did you reach in respect of when

 2     General Krstic became commander of the Drina Corps?

 3        A.   My conclusion was that General Krstic became commander of the

 4     Drina Corps in the early evening hours of 13 July 1995.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, let's focus on the additional reports that you

 6     prepared, three reports.  I call them the command responsibilities

 7     reports.  P2244, which is the VRS corps command responsibility report;

 8     P2248, which is the VRS brigade command responsibility report; and P2249,

 9     which is the VRS Main Staff command responsibility report.

10             Can you, first of all, identify what your tasks were in respect

11     of these particular reports?

12        A.   The preparation of these reports actually predated the

13     preparation of the narrative reports.  As the foundational step, my task

14     in these particular cases were to, within the framework of the army of

15     the Republika Srpska, as well as the legal framework within the Republika

16     Srpska at the time, to identify the army, where it fit within the law, to

17     identify the doctrine that the army was using, in this case the former

18     doctrine of -- the doctrine of the former Yugoslav national army, to

19     determine that the VRS was still in fact using that doctrine as their --

20     the way that they operated in the battlefield, understanding the

21     hierarchy of the army of the Republika Srpska, how it went from the very

22     top echelons down to the lowest echelons, and then what the roles and

23     responsibilities were in practice as well as under law of the individuals

24     in question, whether they be a corps commander, whether they be a corps

25     Chief of Staff, a brigade commander, or any of the other various

Page 6530

 1     officers.

 2             So for me, that was the foundational step, before I could -- and

 3     understanding their roles and responsibilities within their own military

 4     forces before I could go to the next step of figuring out what their

 5     impact was with respect to the Srebrenica operation.

 6        Q.   Now, what methodology did you use in preparing these reports,

 7     Mr. Butler?

 8        A.   Again, primarily because it was all we had at the time, it was a

 9     documents-based approach, based on various military documents that we

10     had, based on translations of the former Yugoslav national army doctrinal

11     regulations for corps and brigades.  The same with their former manuals

12     for the functioning of the security service and the military police,

13     their command and staff manuals which explains how their staff processes

14     worked and how their officers were trained.  And then later on, although

15     not incorporated in my report, when we had access to a number of those

16     high ranking officers, the ability to go out, explain what my conclusions

17     were and to determine whether or not, you know, my thesis on how it

18     worked was in fact the way that they operated.  And they were able to

19     confirm that.

20        Q.   Mr. Butler, could you briefly describe --

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, if I might interject.  I'd appreciate

22     if the witness confines his answers to the questions asked and not go

23     astray from those questions.

24             MR. HARMON:

25        Q.   Mr. Butler, can you briefly describe the conclusions you reached

Page 6531

 1     on the basis of the work that you performed?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.  The conclusions that I reached on the basis of those

 3     command responsibility reports was that in almost all respects the army

 4     of the Republika Srpska operated in the same manner that the officers

 5     were trained under the former JNA.  They used the same operating guidance

 6     and same methodologies, and that their units, be them of corps or brigade

 7     or lower levels, were in large part organised in accordance with the way

 8     that the JNA manuals had described.

 9        Q.   Now, in your report P2245, just to orient --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you.

11             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just wanted to take you back to the point you

13     made a little earlier on.

14             On what basis did you come to the conclusion that Radoslav Krstic

15     became commander of the Drina Corps some time in the early evening of the

16     13th of July, 1995?

17             THE WITNESS:  Well, sir, in that particular context when you look

18     at the initial version of the narrative and the corps command report, our

19     basis of knowledge from the orders that are signed by him reflect the

20     fact that he is signing orders as the corps commander sometime -- at, I

21     believe, 2000 hours on 13 July 1995.

22             General Krstic, of course, his position was that even though it

23     said that he wasn't the commander, he was in fact some other form of

24     commander.  As the years went on investigative ly, the OTP was able to

25     obtain additional documents that in fact show the formal change over of

Page 6532

 1     command, and also I understand that there has in fact been witness

 2     testimony that reflects that that change of command occurred roughly

 3     1900 hours, 2000 hours on 13 July.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what is the date of the formal change of

 5     command?

 6             THE WITNESS:  13 July, sir.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  13 July.

 8             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I intend to introduce that document in

 9     the course of Mr. Butler's evidence, just for your information.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You may then proceed.  I'll stop

11     there.

12             MR. HARMON:

13        Q.   In your report, Mr. Butler, Prosecution Exhibit 2245, and in

14     chapter 2 of that report you identify the units of the Drina Corps and

15     the VRS Main Staff and the key person nationalities associated with each

16     of those units.  And at the end of that report, you prepared four

17     organigrams showing the structure of the VRS Main Staff, the Drina Corps,

18     the Zvornik Brigade, and the Bratunac brigade.  And you identified --

19     populated that organigram with the personalities associated with each of

20     those positions.  Correct?

21        A.   That is correct, sir, based on my knowledge at the time.

22        Q.   Now let me -- let's turn, if we can, Mr. Butler, to the attack

23     that took place on the UN Safe Area of Srebrenica.  You refer to those in

24     your -- in Prosecution exhibit 2246 in chapter 3 of the report.

25             Mr. Butler, what was Operation Krivaja?  What was it?

Page 6533

 1        A.   Krivaja was the code-name of a VRS military operation whose

 2     initial goal was to reduce the size of the safe haven around Srebrenica

 3     to a very small area, almost within the urban environs of the town of

 4     Srebrenica.

 5        Q.   Did that change -- did that plan change?

 6        A.   Yes, sir, based on the unanticipated success that the military

 7     units were having, some time on the evening hours of 9 July 1995, the

 8     plan changed, and it then became the capture of the town of Srebrenica.

 9        Q.   Can you identify which VRS units participated in the attack on

10     Srebrenica?

11        A.   Yes, sir.  A variety of units participated.

12        Q.   Okay.

13        A.   They would include a tactical group form from the Zvornik

14     Infantry Brigade, Drina Corps; a tactical group from the Birac Infantry

15     Brigade, Drina Corps; tactical group from the 2nd Romanija Motorised

16     Brigade, the Drina Corps asset; it would include troops from the

17     surrounding military unit, the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, it's a

18     Drina Corps asset; elements of the Drina Corps artillery were involved;

19     as well as elements of the Milici Light Infantry Brigade; and the Skelani

20     separate battalion, both also Drina Corps units.

21        Q.   What role, if any, did the 10th Sabotage Detachment play in the

22     events?

23        A.   Once the decision was made to actually go into the urban area of

24     Srebrenica, the 10th Sabotage Unit as well as some other special police

25     units were brought in to perform that function.  They were placed under

Page 6534

 1     the control of the Drina Corps for that operation, and in fact they were

 2     one of the lead units that actually went into the town of Srebrenica.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, what we're going to do and the way we're going

 4     to progress through a large part of your evidence today is we're going to

 5     be taking a look at film footage from the events surrounding the takeover

 6     of Srebrenica and the forcible transfer of persons from that enclave as

 7     well as the capture and detention and killings of people who had

 8     surrendered to the VRS.

 9             Now, you mentioned earlier in your evidence that you had

10     considered film footage from various open sources.  In the course of

11     looking at this evidence, we're going to see the source of some of this

12     footage that will be identified --

13             MR. HARMON:  For counsel's benefit and for Your Honour's benefit,

14     will be identified in the portions of the film that identify what the

15     theme is of the ensuing film.  Now, one of those, Your Honours, will say

16     Petrovic footage.  And I want to clarify with Mr. Butler.

17        Q.   First of all, Mr. Butler, are you familiar with Petrovic footage?

18     Can you explain to the court who Petrovic was.

19        A.   Yes, sir, I am familiar it.  It was one of the pieces of material

20     I actually used in my report.  Zoran Petrovic was a reporter, an

21     independent reporter from Belgrade.  On the day of 13 July 1995, he was

22     permitted to accompany Republika Srpska special police commander

23     Borovcanin in and around the area of Potocari as well as along the road

24     from Bratunac to Kravica, to Sandici, towards the Konjevic Polje.  During

25     his period accompanying him on 13 July, he videotaped a good deal of the

Page 6535

 1     events that were occurring in those locations on that day.  Those

 2     videotapes identify locations where individuals were detained.  They

 3     identify one location where individuals were executed, and they show in

 4     some degree of detail the actual separation process that occurred in the

 5     town of Potocari on 13 July 1995.

 6        Q.   Mr. Butler, what other sources of video footage that we will be

 7     looking at can you identify for the Court?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.  Other sources would include video footage of -- or

 9     that was taken by members of the VRS themselves.  There was a video crew

10     there from the VRS Main Staff that was taking video that ultimately ended

11     up on Republika Srpska television, so there's a good deal of video from

12     that.  There's also one small piece of video that is from an independent

13     Dutch production crew that obtained that video footage sometime after the

14     war, which shows some scenes related to Potocari and also Sandici.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say obtained sometime after the war, what

16     do you mean?

17             THE WITNESS:  The video footage was in a Dutch documentary that I

18     believe came out, if I recall correctly, sometime in 1999.  I know that

19     the investigation team has the full background on the process of how they

20     obtained the video and where.  I don't recall the details of that at this

21     time.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  It is that detail that I wanted.

23             MR. HARMON:  Now, Your Honours, what I intend to do is show a

24     series of videos.  I will stop it at various points.  I will note the

25     timer number on it because there are some portions that I'd ask

Page 6536

 1     Mr. Butler to identify.

 2             If we could take a look at the first clip.  It 65 ter 4459I --

 3     4559I.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. HARMON:  We have stopped -- we have stopped this at 53.--


 7        Q.   Mr. Butler, even though this is the backside of this individual's

 8     head, can you identify who this individual is?

 9        A.   Yes, sir, that is Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, the commander of the

10     Zvornik Infantry Brigade in July of 1995.

11             MR. HARMON:  And for reference, Your Honour, the paragraph he's

12     referred to in chapter 2, and he is -- identified in paragraph 3.2 and

13     other parts of the narrative.

14             If we could continue, please.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

17             MR. HARMON:  Sorry, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we be told where this place is.

19             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

20        Q.   Mr. Butler, can you identify -- you have seen this footage

21     before.  Can you identify where this is taking place, Where this footage

22     is.

23        A.   Yes, sir.  This is on the road from Zeleni Jadar moving towards

24     Srebrenica.  It's actually a downhill grade, so the main axis of attack

25     went down this particular road, down the valley towards Srebrenica.

Page 6537

 1        Q.   And what day is this, approximately?  Do you have any idea of

 2     dating this particular film footage, or a range of dates when this was

 3     taken?

 4        A.   This film footage, I believe, all comes from the day that

 5     Srebrenica was captured.  This would be the morning/early afternoon hours

 6     of 11 July 1995.

 7        Q.   All right.  Now, if we could -- if that is satisfactory,

 8     Your Honour, we can continue.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, that's fine.

10             MR. HARMON:  All right.  Thank you.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. HARMON:  We've stopped the film at

13        Q.   Mr. Butler, can you identify this individual, please?

14        A.   Yes, sir.  That is Captain Milan Jolovic.  He is the commander of

15     the Drina Wolves unit of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

16        Q.   And what was the Drina Wolves units?

17        A.   The Drina Wolves were a rather elite combat formation.  They were

18     considered the assault battalion of the Drina Corps, although they were

19     normally subordinate to the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.  This particular

20     unit made up some of the best-trained and fittest soldiers of the

21     Drina Corps.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. HARMON:

24        Q.   Mr. Butler, first of all, before we ask you some more questions

25     on that --

Page 6538

 1             MR. HARMON:  Could that be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 3     given an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2387.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. HARMON:

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, at the time this film footage was occurring,

 8     were there members of the Bosnian army in the enclave, the -- the Bosnia

 9     -- army of the government of Bosnia, ABiH is what I refer to it commonly

10     and what is referred in your report.

11        A.   Yes, sir.  In fact, despite the UN presence, the enclave was

12     never disarmed, and the military formation of the ABiH 2 Corps was the

13     28th Infantry Division that had a sizeable presence inside Srebrenica and

14     the surrounding enclave.

15        Q.   And can you describe the arms that was available to them.

16        A.   Mostly what we would consider light arms, individual weapons,

17     pistols, rifles, machine-guns, small crew-served weapons, heavier

18     machine-guns and mortars.  Given the fact that they could not supply

19     themselves under normal circumstances, that they had to smuggle weapons

20     and ammunition in, either through known smuggling corridors or, you know

21     surreptitious helicopter flights, or by other means, they couldn't have

22     and didn't have any particularly heavy weapons.  But they did have a

23     considerable number of light arms.

24        Q.   Did they have heavy weapons?

25        A.   There were some heavy weapons that existed prior to the

Page 6539

 1     establishment of the safe area, but those particular weapons were in the

 2     UN weapons storage area and under UN control.  They were not part of this

 3     July 1995 fight.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You referred to surreptitious helicopter flights.

 5     How surreptitious were these, and how often were they?

 6             THE WITNESS:  They're -- from the readings of the VRS documents,

 7     they were aware that on at least a biweekly basis that Bosnian Muslim

 8     military forces would fly helicopters to the enclaves to drop off

 9     ammunition to pick up individuals or to deliver high-ranking or

10     high-value individuals, occasionally take out a seriously wounded

11     individual.  They were aware they were doing that, and took active

12     measures in order to try and prevent that.  I think in one particular

13     case in either January/February 1995, they were successful in shooting

14     down one of those helicopters.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And did they see the contents of the helicopter?

16             THE WITNESS:  I don't know the answer it that, sir.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know how they came to the conclusion of --

18     the conclusion about the mission of these helicopters?

19             THE WITNESS:  How the Bosnian Serbs did?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  You say from the documents of VRS, this is

21     how you came it that conclusion.  From the reading of those documents,

22     how did they come to the conclusion about the mission of those

23     helicopters?

24             THE WITNESS:  Well, sir, they -- they, like everyone else, they

25     had intelligence means that were involved.  They had sources of

Page 6540

 1     information inside the enclave.  It -- while it was done clandestinely,

 2     it was common knowledge within military circles that this was happening.

 3     So they were aware that these helicopters were coming in.  And in fact in

 4     some cases their ability to track them was highlighted by the fact that

 5     they would get radar information from the VJ and through their own air

 6     defence early warning network so that these were coming at various points

 7     in time.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can understand being aware of the helicopter

 9     coming.  I'm sure, even by the naked eye, if are you in the vicinity you

10     might be able to see.  What I'm trying to find out is how the mission of

11     the helicopter and the contents of the helicopter were determined.

12             THE WITNESS:  Again, sir, it was -- I can only tell you what the

13     documents say, that it was common knowledge to them.  I believe that in

14     the course of the Office of the Prosecutor's investigation into this,

15     they have also been able to confirm what those flights were about.  So I

16     don't -- you know, the fact that I can't tell you exactly how they knew

17     of this, but can I tell that, you know, as time went by, they were

18     correct.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just asked these questions because we have just

20     heard testimony about this part of the case, which goes against what you

21     are saying.

22             THE WITNESS:  I understand, sir.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You understand.  Thank you so much.

24             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to ask a

25     question.

Page 6541

 1             We heard another witness who told us that it was impossible that

 2     helicopter flew into Srebrenica.  They could not go into the enclaves in

 3     Srebrenica without the UNPROFOR people realizing it.  This witness worked

 4     for the United Nations and told us he was the spokesperson, and he said

 5     that he did not see any report to that effect mentioning, for instance, a

 6     helicopter or a flight of a helicopter arriving into one of the enclaves.

 7             How is that possible?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Again, I certainly can't vouch for that individual.

 9     I can tell that you they happened.  Certainly with respect to the

10     Srebrenica enclave, it was a well-known fact that the Bosnian Muslim

11     forces, the 28th Infantry Division --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Butler, I would like to you be very clear.

13     You can tell us it happened, or you can tell us that you read VRS

14     documents stating that it happened.

15             THE WITNESS:  Sir, I can tell you it happened.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It happened.  You saw it.

17             THE WITNESS:  No, I did not --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not being an eye-witness.

19             THE WITNESS:  No, sir, I'm not trying to do that.  But what I'm

20     saying is that approximately a month and a half before Srebrenica that

21     the entire Command Staff, for the most part, of the 28th Division left

22     the Srebrenica enclave and ended up in Tuzla where they were part of --

23     where they were 2 corps undergoing training and some other types of

24     issues.  They flew out.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I must ask you this question.  About a month

Page 6542

 1     before the taking of Srebrenica, you were in that area?

 2             THE WITNESS:  No, sir.  Again what I'm --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you see, I'm concerned about the way you are

 4     testifying.  You're testifying like an eye-witness.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I understand, and I don't mean to, sir.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, don't then.  If are you not an eye-witness,

 7     don't testify like that.  If you have heard or if you've read about it

 8     somewhere, say this is what you read.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Again, sir, I can tell you that the VRS understood

10     that these helicopter flights were occurring.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't want to know at this stage what the VRS

12     understood.  I want to know what you understand.

13             THE WITNESS:  Sir --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you testifying to something that you saw?  Are

15     you testifying to something that you read about?  Are you testifying to

16     something that you were told?

17             THE WITNESS:  Sir, I'm testifying to the information that I read

18     about in the VRS reports, and I --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can only say the VRS reports state.

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  But the other portion of that is that it

21     an attempt to -- in analysing this, to verify these, the investigation

22     did look at these issues, and our understanding from the ongoing

23     investigation is that the VRS information in this regard was accurate and

24     that these flights were taking place.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

Page 6543

 1             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Is it possible, then, Witness, and

 2     this is my question:  Is it possible that the UN observers, the UN

 3     military observers, hadn't seen anything?  It is not such a huge space,

 4     Srebrenica.

 5             How is it possible that they hadn't heard anything, they hadn't

 6     seen the helicopters?  How is that possible?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Ma'am, as a component of the Srebrenica

 8     investigations and three trials, a large number of Dutch officers who

 9     were in the enclave during that period testified, and they made it very

10     clear that their ability to move around the enclave completely and have

11     full freedom of movement was severely restricted by the forces of the

12     28th Infantry Division.  They openly acknowledge that there was a large

13     part of the enclave that they never had access to, because that is where

14     the military formations of the 28th Division operated.

15             It is it entirely possible that United Nations observers, and in

16     fact as the Dutch report, in their own reporting, there are large parts

17     of the enclave that they were not able to observe and were not able to

18     know what type of activity was happening there, ma'am.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Even with the help of radars, they could not

20     detect anything?

21             THE WITNESS:  Ma'am, the Dutch did not have any air defence early

22     warning radars in and around the Srebrenica area, as far as I'm aware.

23     While I'm sure NATO had radar coverage of that area, I have no way of

24     knowing how much information was shared by the NATO deny-flight missions

25     with the United Nations on that basis.  I -- frankly, I guess I

Page 6544

 1     apologised in so much as I didn't believe that that would possibly be a

 2     disputed fact.  I thought that was pretty much common knowledge that

 3     those flights were occurring.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  The only point, sir, is that you're called

 5     here as an expert witness, and what we ask -- what we expect of you is

 6     opinion evidence, not fact evidence, unless you say, These are the facts

 7     that I have been given to operate on.  But not facts that you claim to

 8     have seen or observed somewhere.  Because you're not coming in that

 9     capacity.

10             THE WITNESS:  Agreed, sir, and certainly I do not want to ever

11     leave that impression.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We happen to have that impression.

13             THE WITNESS:  My apologies, sir.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:

16        Q.   Mr. Butler, did the members of the 28th Division resist the

17     advance of the VRS into the enclave?

18        A.   No, sir, not particularly heavily.  Their strategy was, in part,

19     to have the United Nations defend the enclave, so what would happen is

20     that when they were contacted by the VRS forces, they would withdraw back

21     behind the United Nations, the Dutch troops, and put the Dutch in a

22     position where they would have fire on the Serbs or essentially have

23     their positions overrun.

24        Q.   What actions did the members of the 28th Division take in the

25     face of the VRS invasion into the safe area?

Page 6545

 1        A.   While there was some token resistance.  For the most part the

 2     forces of the 28th Infantry Division just continued to withdraw towards

 3     the town of Srebrenica and to the hills to the west of it.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I notice we're a little bit early from

 6     the break time, but the next clip I'm going to show is going to carry

 7     over.  It will be -- it will either take us past the break by a few

 8     minutes, or we can break now and we can reconvene, and I can start

 9     afresh.  I'm in your hands.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What are you asking?

11             MR. HARMON:  I think it is better to break, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will take a break and come back at 4.00.

13             Court adjourned.

14                           --- Recess taken at 3.27 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

17             MR. HARMON:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Mr. Butler, in a moment, we're going to look at some film footage

19     from the town of Srebrenica that was taken on 10th of July, 1995.

20             Before we look at that film, can you tell me what the distance,

21     approximate distance is between the town of Srebrenica and the town of

22     Potocari, both of which were located in the Srebrenica enclave.

23        A.   I believe, sir, that, by road, it's approximately 4 to

24     5 kilometres, maybe a little less.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 6546

 1             MR. HARMON:  So if we could play 65 ter 4459.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're sure it's 4459?

 3             MR. HARMON:  No, I'm not.  I've been corrected once again, Your

 4     Honour.  I have been corrected once again.  It's 4559J.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. HARMON:

 7        Q.   Mr. Butler, we've stopped the film at

 8             Can you identify the type of weapon that is being fired in this

 9     particular frame?

10        A.   Yes, sir, I believe that's --

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, there's no foundation for an expertise

12     with regard to that issue.

13             MR. HARMON:  I'll refrain -- I'll lay the foundation then,

14     Your Honour.  I mean, I think you've --

15        Q.   Mr. Butler, how long did you serve in the United States Army?

16        A.   Twenty years, sir.

17        Q.   Did you participate in weapons training and weapons usage?

18        A.   As part of my role as an intelligence warrant officer, I was

19     required to be familiar with the weaponry of less the United States

20     forces but more so of the former Soviet Union Warsaw Pact and

21     adversaries.  So a knowledge of those types of weapons is what I'm

22     trained to do.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm satisfied.

24             MR. HARMON:  Mr. Butler, then are you in a position to tell what

25     kind of a weapon is being fired in this particular frame?

Page 6547

 1        A.   Yes, sir, that is a mortar.  I believe from the size,

 2     82-millimetres.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And where are we?

 4             MR. HARMON:  At the beginning of the clip, Your Honour, the clip

 5     identified the town of Srebrenica, so -- and I identified at the

 6     beginning of Mr. Butler' evidence, we were now going to go to look at

 7     footage from the town of Srebrenica.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 9             MR. HARMON:  And can I ask, if Your Honour wishes, because we can

10     locate this quite easily in the rest of this film, but if you're

11     satisfied, Your Honour, I will proceed, or ...

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, sir.

13             MR. HARMON:  All right.

14        Q.   Mr. Butler, at the time this weapon is being fired, what -- on

15     the 10th of July, in respect of the town of Srebrenica, can you put this

16     footage in context with the events?

17        A.   Sir, I believe this footage is actually the 11th of July,

18     approximately the middle morning hours.  This is the last rear guard

19     elements of the 28th Division.  What happens is -- the next component is

20     this is where all of the civilians, particularly the women and the

21     children, are congregating around the United Nations Dutch Bravo company

22     compound that was actually located in Srebrenica town.

23        Q.   Well, Mr. Butler, at this point, this clip has been identified as

24     the 10th of July.  I want to explore that with you because we are going

25     to be looking at a clip that is dated the 11th of July where we will be

Page 6548

 1     looking at the town of Srebrenica and civilians.

 2             What is it that makes you conclude that this is the 11th of July,

 3     as opposed to what was on the caption of the film, the 10th of July?

 4        A.   Again, sir, it's been a few years since I have seen a lot of this

 5     footage.  I always see in the same streaming portion associated with the

 6     11th of July.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll --

 8             MR. HARMON:  Let's continue then.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. HARMON:

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, we've stopped the film at

12             Can you identify the building that says "UN Srebrenica" on it?

13     What is that building?

14        A.   Yes, sir.  That is the Bravo company compound of the Dutch

15     battalion.

16        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

17             MR. HARMON:  Let's continue.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. HARMON:

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, we've stopped this film at, and in

21     the left-hand corner of this footage, one can see the date, 10/7/1995.

22        A.   Yes, sir, that is correct.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. HARMON:  If we could continue then, please.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 6549

 1             MR. HARMON:

 2        Q.   Mr. Butler, I'm going to ask you to -- we're going to look at

 3     some film footage from the 11th of July, 1995, and to put this footage

 4     into context, can you just inform the Court what was happening in the

 5     enclave on the 11th of July, based on your review of the documents and

 6     other materials available to you.

 7        A.   At this particular time, the Bosnian Serb army forces, the

 8     Drina Corps, are located in the heights around the town.  The Bosnian

 9     Muslim leadership in the enclave has made the decision that they're going

10     to abandon the enclave.  And what ends up happening is you have two

11     separate routes out of the enclave, one large group of civilians,

12     primarily women, children, elderly men, elect to accompany the Dutch

13     Bravo company forces out of the town.  Another group, the military-aged

14     men, or those believed to be, you know, within the military age group,

15     start assembling at a series of villages, Susnjari, Jaglici, near

16     Potocari, and they begin to make an overland trek from the former enclave

17     area to what they considered to be free territory near Tuzla.

18             MR. HARMON:  And if we could play this particular footage that's

19     entitled:  Srebrenica Town, 11 July 1995.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. HARMON:

22        Q.   Mr. Butler, we've stopped the film at

23             Can you tell us what this particular portion of the film depicts?

24        A.   Yes, sir.  This depicts one portion of what we generally refer to

25     as the column of military-aged men that's assembling and beginning to

Page 6550

 1     move towards the ABiH 2 Corps lines near Tuzla.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, could 65 ter 4559J be given an exhibit

 4     number, please.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And just for purposes of my own record keeping,

 6     that includes two separate clips, one on the --

 7             MR. HARMON:  The 10th of July and the 11th of July.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you so much.

 9             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what's the provenance of this film?

11             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I would have to go back and -- I can

12     check on that.  It would say at the -- probably at the beginning of the

13     film.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

15             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, the provenance of that film is Muslim

16     -- it's Muslim civilian footage.  It's footage that was taken in the

17     enclave by somebody who was in the enclave at the time.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'd like to know who that somebody is.  That's

19     what I mean by provenance.

20             MR. HARMON:  I'll see if I can find that out for you,

21     Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Madam Registrar, would you please

23     assign an exhibit number to that clip so it can be admitted into

24     evidence.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2388.

Page 6551

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             MR. HARMON:

 3        Q.   Mr. Butler, based on your review of the documents and materials

 4     available and with you -- that were available to you, can you just

 5     generally describe the column, the direction of travel of the column, and

 6     what happened to the column, in general terms?

 7        A.   In general terms, the column formed up at the villages of

 8     Susnjari and Jaglici through the evening hours of 11th July and -- or

 9     through the evening hours of 10 July to 11 July and began to move almost

10     in single or double file, because of the extensive minefields around the

11     enclave, down known smuggling routes by which the ABiH had actually been

12     bringing in the weapons.  The Bosnian Serb military and police forces

13     knew where those routes were and, as a result, they were able to set up

14     ambushes throughout the course of this column, moving from that location,

15     the former enclave, to their destination.

16             Starting the evening of the 12th and running from the 13th, 14th,

17     15th, 16th, there was a good deal of combat activity that occurred

18     between the armed members of the column, as well as the Republika Srpska

19     police and the Republika Srpska military units that were trying to block

20     that column.

21             One of the unique aspects about that that comes from through from

22     the military and police documents is that the army leadership and, to a

23     lesser degree, the police leadership under estimated the size of the

24     column as well as potential military threat that that column faced

25     towards the Zvornik municipality.  So as time goes on and as the times as

Page 6552

 1     these leaders recognise the size and the potential threat of this column,

 2     one sees a great deal of reallocations of military and police forces from

 3     other areas on the battlefield in order to deal with it.

 4             Ultimately on the 16th of July, because of the combat that is

 5     occurred and because of the situation in the Zvornik brigade, the Zvornik

 6     brigade military commander Colonel Pandurevic, makes a decision that

 7     allows for a large portion of that column to pass through his lines and

 8     ultimately make it to friendly territory.  That cease-fire lasted for

 9     24 hours.  Afterwards the Zvornik brigade and other forces there moved in

10     to close that off, and then the remainder of the column is systematically

11     tracked down and either captured or killed.

12        Q.   Based on your review of the documents, Mr. Butler, were you able

13     to ascertain the composition of the column in terms of what approximate

14     percentage of members of the column were armed members of the 28th

15     Division, which portion were civilians?

16        A.   Yes, sir.  Again, the documents reflect that the Bosnian Serb

17     leadership was aware -- the Bosnian Serb military leadership there was

18     aware that both military and civilians were in the column.  Their general

19     view was that approximately one third of the column was armed; the

20     remainder were not.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. HARMON:  I'd like to look -- I'd like to have 65 ter 4559K

23     shown next.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. HARMON:

Page 6553

 1        Q.   Mr. Butler, can you enlighten us as to what was depicted on that

 2     film?

 3        A.   Yes, sir.  I mean, that's just another depiction of the column as

 4     it was travelling out.  You'll notice the single file that they were

 5     going over the track.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, I'd like to change and refocus our attention on

 7     Potocari on the 11th of July.

 8             You indicated in your report, Mr. Butler, that the Muslim

 9     population that went -- part of the Muslim population went to Potocari.

10     That's referenced in your executive summary, paragraph 7, and 3.22 of

11     your revised report.

12             What was the general composition of the group of people who went

13     from Srebrenica town to Potocari?

14        A.   The Dutch and UN observer reports reflect the fact that most of

15     the people that accompanied the UN were women, children, and elderly.

16     They note the fact in their own reporting that there are very few

17     individuals that they could identify as soldiers.

18        Q.   All right.

19             MR. HARMON:  Could we go to Prosecution Exhibit 385, please.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do that, what do you want to do with --

21             MR. HARMON:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Could that be given an exhibit

22     number, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

24     given an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2389.

Page 6554

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             Now you want --

 3             MR. HARMON:  Yes.  Can we have on the screen and play Prosecution

 4     Exhibit 385.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. HARMON:

 7        Q.   Mr. Butler, I want to now direct our attention to a different

 8     region within the enclave.  You mentioned in your --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What were we supposed to see on that?

10             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, what I have attempted to do is show you

11     what was happening on the day of the 11th.  I have taken you to, first of

12     all, the area of the column, where the column departing from.

13     Mr. Butler, in his report, indicated that in one of his paragraphs of his

14     report, he said the other portion of the civilian population went to

15     Potocari.  We've seen parts of that.  And now we're going to go to a

16     third geographical region within the enclave which is -- which I'll ask

17     Mr. Butler about it right now.

18        Q.   Mr. Butler, you indicated earlier in your evidence and in your

19     report that on 11th of July, the enclave fell.  In identifying persons in

20     your report from the VRS Main Staff and in the corps level and below who

21     participated in the attack on the enclave, did you rely on certain -- to

22     a certain extent, film footage?

23        A.   Yes, sir, I did.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, I'm going to play a portion of film that was

25     taken on the is 11th of July.  We're going to stop this, Your Honours and

Page 6555

 1     counsel, many times so we can identify certain people who are referred to

 2     in Mr. Butler' report.

 3             MR. HARMON:  So if we could put on the screen, 65 ter 4559L.  If

 4     we could play that, please.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. HARMON:  We've stopped the film at

 7        Q.   Mr. Butler, can you identify who this -- the individual is at the

 8     right side of this frame and his position at the time this film was

 9     taken?

10        A.   Yes, sir.  This is General Major Milenko Zivanovic, and at the

11     time this was taken he is the commander of the Drina Corps.

12        Q.   All right.

13             MR. HARMON:  Please continue.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. HARMON:  And we've stopped the film again at

16        Q.   The individual at the far left of this image is who?

17        A.   That is Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, the commander of the Zvornik

18     Infantry Brigade.

19             MR. HARMON:  If we could continue, please.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. HARMON:

22        Q.   Mr. Butler, the third individual from the left at this particular

23     point in the film, which is, who is that individual?

24        A.   The individual in question is General Major Radislav Krstic.  At

25     this time, he is the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps.

Page 6556

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MR. HARMON:  Please continue.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. HARMON:

 5        Q.   Mr. Butler, we've stopped this footage at

 6             And you will see next to General Krstic, who is at the far left

 7     of this film, you will see two individuals who are dressed in black.

 8     Were you able to identify which unit those members belonged to?

 9        A.   Yes, sir.  Those are members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

10        Q.   And based on your review of the documents, what role did members

11     of the 10th Sabotage Detachment play, if any, in the mass executions?

12        A.   Again, in this particular case while I am aware of the role of

13     the 10th Sabotage, it's not on the basis of the VRS documents itself.

14        Q.   Okay.  Well, let me -- do you refer in your report to the

15     10th Sabotage -- members of this unit, participating in executions?

16        A.   Yes, sir, I do.

17        Q.   And which executions did members of this unit participate in?

18        A.   They were involved in the executions that occurred at the

19     Branjevo farm on 16 July 1995.  That is in the northern area of the

20     Zvornik municipality.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. HARMON:  And those references, Your Honour, are found in

23     Mr. Butler`s report, paragraphs 7.36 to 7.42.

24             If we could continue, then, playing this film.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 6557

 1             MR. HARMON:

 2        Q.   We've stopped the film at

 3             Mr. Butler, who is the man on the left-hand side of this image?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.  That is Colonel Mirko Trivic.  He is the commander of

 5     the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade; it's a Drina Corps unit.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 7             MR. HARMON:  If we can continue.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. HARMON:  We've stopped the film at 00.30.30 -- 35.9.

10        Q.   And on the left-hand side of this image there is a man in a brown

11     T-shirt.  Can you identify who that person is and what his position was?

12        A.   Yes, sir.  That is Colonel Vujadin Popovic.  He is the chief of

13     security for the Drina Corps command, or otherwise known as the assistant

14     commander for security.

15        Q.   All right.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. HARMON:

18        Q.   Mr. Butler, we`ve stopped this film at  And in the

19     upper right-hand corner, there is a logo, are you able to identify what

20     the logo is?

21        A.   Yes, sir.  I understand that that's the logo for Serb Radio and

22     Television.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.

24             MR. HARMON:  Let's continue.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 6558

 1             MR. HARMON:

 2        Q.   Again, if we can -- Mr. Butler, we have stopped at

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do apologise, Mr. Harmon.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard to the last comment made by the

 6     witness and when he said it was a logo for Serb television, is that for

 7     Republika Srpska Television or for some other -- I just -- I think it

 8     might be good to have it clarified within the context of the -- the video

 9     itself.

10             MR. HARMON:  I agree.

11        Q.   Can you answer, Mr. Butler, that logo that we just saw on the

12     film clip where General Mladic is addressing, making a speech, that logo

13     is from --

14        A.   It's Republika Srpska, sir.

15        Q.   Thank you very much.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While we're on that comment, Mr. Harmon, I've seen

17     in previous -- I don't know whether we do it with clips.  Don't we sort

18     of mark what we identify and preserve those?

19             MR. HARMON:  I'm sorry?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't we usually mark what we identify on the clip

21     with a electronic pen and -- or is it not with the -- clips?

22             MR. HARMON:  [Microphone not activated] In terms marking the

23     still images, Your Honour, is that what you're --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, yeah.

25             MR. HARMON:  [Microphone not activated] I've tried to identify --

Page 6559

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2             MR. HARMON:  -- identify the actual timing the numbers so we can

 3     go back and stills can be made from these.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Okay.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, again, this is -- we have seen some of these

 7     figures before, but on the -- we've stopped it at  The man,

 8     second figure from the left with a cigarette his mouth, who is that?

 9        A.   Again, sir, that's General Major Radoslav Krstic.

10        Q.   The man to his left in a brown T-shirt?

11        A.   I'm sorry, left or right?

12        Q.   To his left.  To Krstic's left-hand side.

13        A.   That would be Colonel Popovic.

14        Q.   And I know there's an arm there, and you can't identify on the

15     basis of the arm.  But you have seen this footage before.  Are -- and

16     we'll see a face shortly.  Can you identify who that person is?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we wait until we see the face, then we'll

18     know.

19             MR. HARMON:  Okay, then would you stop the -- Carmela, in just a

20     minute.

21        Q.   We stopped at  The second man from the left in a

22     camouflage uniform, who is that, sir?

23        A.   That is Colonel Pandurevic.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. HARMON:  If we could carry on.

Page 6560

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MR. HARMON:  Okay.  We've stopped the film at

 3        Q.   And the man at the left-hand side of this image, can you identify

 4     him, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.  That is Colonel Svetozar Andric.  And at the time of

 6     this film he is the commander of the 1st Birac Brigade of the Drina

 7     Corps.

 8        Q.   What position did he take up after -- shortly thereafter?

 9        A.   When General Krstic was appointed as the commander of the

10     Drina Corps, Colonel Andric was subsequently promoted from the command of

11     the Birac Brigade, and he subsequently assumed the position of Chief of

12     Staff of the Drina Corps.

13        Q.   All right.  If we could carry on.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. HARMON:

16        Q.   Mr. Butler, we've stopped at, and the man on the

17     right-hand side of this image wearing a black T-shirt and camouflage

18     pants, can you identify him?

19        A.   Yes, sir.  He is Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis.  He is the commander

20     of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

21        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. HARMON:  Could that be given an exhibit number, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

25     number.

Page 6561

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2390.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. HARMON:

 4        Q.   Mr. Butler, in your report, chapter 4 of your report, you

 5     describe a series of meetings and decisions that occurred following the

 6     fall of Srebrenica, including three meetings at the hotel fontana.  The

 7     first meeting at the hotel Fontana is described in paragraph 4.3 to 4.5

 8     of your report.  And I'd like to you please put this first meeting into

 9     context, with what was happening at the time, what was known by the VRS

10     in respect of the location of the 28th Division, and other relevant

11     elements.

12        A.   Well, sir, at this point in time this meeting takes place at

13     roughly 2000 hours on the 11th.  Srebrenica is in Bosnian Serb military

14     hands.  And at this juncture, one of the first things that General Mladic

15     is attempting to do is to try to arrange for what he believes is going to

16     be the surrender of the 28th Infantry Division.  One of the unique

17     aspects of this operation here is that the VRS, as is apparent through

18     the documents and the military intercepts of their communications, they

19     are unaware of a decision by the Muslim forces to try to break out of the

20     former enclave.  So, as a result, the VRS still believes that they are

21     somewhere in the enclave and is in part trying to arrange for their

22     surrender.

23             MR. HARMON:  Could we have 65 ter 4559M on the screen.  This

24     film, Your Honour, may take us past the break.  I'm satisfied to break at

25     the normal time and continue, if -- all right.

Page 6562

 1             If we could play this film.

 2        Q.   This, Mr. Butler, is the first meeting at the Hotel Fontana on

 3     11th of July, 1995.

 4             Again, we're going to stop this, and I'm going to ask you to

 5     identify certain participants in it right away.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. HARMON:  We've stopped this almost immediately, Mr. Butler,

 8     at  And going from left to right, can you identify the

 9     individuals depicted in this image, and their positions.

10        A.   Yes, sir.  Obviously the first person on the left is

11     General Ratko Mladic, the commander of the VRS.

12             The next individual is Colonel Radoslav Jankovic, who is an

13     officer who is assigned to the intelligence directorate of the Main Staff

14     of the VRS.  The third person, person in the middle, the white-haired

15     gentleman is in fact Colonel Karremans; he is the commander of the Dutch

16     battalion of Srebrenica.

17             The next individual to his right is then Sergeant Major Brave.

18     And the find individual whose face is partially cut off at the end of the

19     screen is Major Boering.  Both of those individuals are also members of

20     the Dutch battalion.

21        Q.   All right.

22             The find individual whose face is partially cut off at the end of

23     the screen is Major Boering.  Both of those individuals are also members

24     of the Dutch battalion.

25        Q.  All right.

Page 6563

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2     MR. HARMON:  Mr. President, I have stopped the film.  We can continue

 3     playing this if you wish, but this goes on for another 20 minutes, and

 4     I'm at your disposal, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We're five minutes beyond the time.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will take a break and come back at quarter to.

 8             Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.21 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

12             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, just for the record we had stopped the

13     film at, and we're now going to start the continuation of that

14     Film at that particular timing mark.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. HARMON:  Could that film, Your Honour, be given an exhibit

18     number.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

20     number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2391.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. HARMON:

24        Q.  Mr. Butler, at the end -- toward the end of that film,

25     Colonel Karremans asked General Mladic if he could ask him a personal

Page 6564

 1     question:  Could he have a talk with his soldiers.  And in your report,

 2     at P2246, paragraph 3.12, page 30 of your report, you discuss the

 3     takeover of observation posts in and around the enclave.  Can you just

 4     briefly explain to the Court what those observation posts were and what

 5     happened to the persons who -- the Dutch soldiers who occupied those

 6     posts?

 7        A.  Yes, sir.  On the outside or on the perimeter of the enclave

 8     itself, the Dutch, the UN, had established observation posts so they

 9     could monitor activity to some degree.  As the VRS forces advance towards

10     Srebrenica, they overran a number of these observation posts, as they

11     were blocking that particular route.  The Dutch soldiers who were manning

12     them were given the option of either trying to withdraw back towards UN

13     bases in Srebrenica or Potocari; or, depending on the fighting, they were

14     given the option of placing themselves in the custody of the VRS

15     soldiers.  Those that did, and for the most part most of the of the OPs

16     did, were taken to the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac where they remained.

17        Q.  Based on your review of the documents and the materials available

18     to you, hadd any threats been made in respect of those soldiers?

19        A.  Yes, sir, on 11 July 1995.

20        Q.  What threats?

21        A.  Following the attack by NATO F-16 aircraft where several bombs

22     were dropped on the advancing VRS soldiers, the Dutch report that they

23     received over their radio networks a broadcast that said that if the

24     bombing not stop, that Dutch soldiers being held by the Serbs would be

25     harmed, in fact, would be killed.

Page 6565

 1             Shortly thereafter that, orders were given for NATO to stop

 2     bombing those positions.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Could we have 65 ter 4559N on the screen, please.

 4     And play that.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. HARMON:

 7        Q.  While this is being played, you have seen this clip before.  Could

 8     you identify for the Trial Chamber what this clip is going to depict.

 9        A.  Yes, sir.  This is a clip showing a number of the Dutch

10     peacekeepers that were held at the Hotel Fontana.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  It's hard to hear of the witness because of the

12     Background noise.

13             MR. HARMON:  Why don't you stop the film for just a minute there.

14        Q.  Let me just ask you to repeat what I just asked you, Mr. Butler.

15     We are we looking at this particular film.  What does depict?

16        A.  Again, sir, it depicts Dutch soldiers that are being -- or that

17     are at the Hotel Fontana on 11 July.

18        Q.  All right.

19             MR. HARMON:  If we could continue with the film.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21     MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, could this film clip be given an exhibit

22     number.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will do that.  Are these the soldiers that

24     Colonel Karremans was asking to talk to?

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, that is correct.

Page 6566

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know whether he actually did talk to them?

 2     It doesn't appear to seem like that on the clip.

 3             THE WITNESS:  No, sir, he did address them.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He did?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, he did.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  4559N is admitted.  May it please be given an

 7     exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2392.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MR. HARMON:  May we, Your Honour, go into private session for

11     just a moment.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6567











11 Page 6567 redacted. Private session.















Page 6568

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:  Could I have Prosecution Exhibit 437 on the monitor,

16     Please.

17             Your Honours, this film clip is about 24 minutes or 25 minutes

18     long.  I think when Your Honours see this clip, it will -- you will

19     recall what this clip relates to.  The purpose of my showing it to

20     Mr. Butler is to have him identify certain persons in there, and I -- at

21     some point in time, if the Court wishes, we can stop this clip after I

22     have advised you that the persons I want identified in the clip have been

23     identified.

24             So I just inform you of that, and we can proceed, first of all,

25     with the Prosecution Exhibit 437.

Page 6569

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. HARMON:  We've stopped the film at

 4        Q.  Mr. Butler, can you identify the individual depicted in this

 5     frame?

 6        A.  Yes, sir, that is Colonel Radoslav Jankovic.

 7        Q.  All right.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. HARMON:  We stopped at film at

10        Q.  Can you identify the individual in this particular frame,

11     Mr. Butler?

12        A.  Yes, sir, that's General Major Radoslav Krstic.

13        Q.  All right.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm -- I've completed with this

16     particular film in identifying the relevant persons in this particular

17     film.  And with the Court's permission, I will move to a different

18     exhibit at this point.  We'll stopped the film at

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may move on to the next film, sir.

20             MR. HARMON:  All right.  Thank you.

21             If we could move to Prosecution Exhibit 438.

22        Q.  Mr. Butler, we're going to be looking at the film of the third

23     Hotel Fontana meeting.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 6570

 1             MR. HARMON:

 2        Q.  Mr. Butler, we've stopped the film at

 3             Can you identify the soldier in the camouflage uniform on the

 4     right-hand side of this image?  He has a dark black mustache, and he is

 5     bald.

 6        A.  Yes, sir.  That is Lieutenant-Colonel Svetozar Kosoric.  He is the

 7     chief of intelligence for the command of the Drina Corps on this

 8     particular day.  This is 13 July 1995

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. HARMON:  Identify these people, if we could, from left to

11     right in the frame that is stopped at

12        A.  The far left you have General Major Krstic.  The figure closest is

13     obviously General Mladic.  The young individual wearing the civilian

14     shirt, I believe his name is Petar, and I won't pronounce his last name,

15     I can't pronounce it.  He is the interpreter.  Then, of course,

16     Colonel Karremans.

17        Q.  All right.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. HARMON:

20        Q.  Now, from the person who is sitting next to Colonel Karremans on

21     the same side of the table, who is that?

22        A.  That I believe is Major Boering, sir, from the Dutch battalion.

23        Q.  And the next three people in order, do you know who they are?

24        A.  I am aware of the female.  I believe her name is Camilla Omanovic.

25     I do not know who the next person is down the line there.  I don't know

Page 6571

 1     who the next -- the young person is.  I don't know whether soldier or

 2     civilian.  And just at the edge of the frame, partially cut in half, is

 3     Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric.

 4        Q.  All right.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. HARMON:  I wasn't fast enough to ask us to stop.  There was a

 7     gentleman who quickly went out of the frame to the right.  He was wearing

 8     a -- it looked like a multi-coloured shirt.  He had a beard.  We were at

 9     0 --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we go back to where the picture is?

11             MR. HARMON:  Yeah, there we are.

12        Q.  Mr. Butler, are you able to -- we're at

13             General Mladic is to the right-hand side of that frame.  Who is

14     the man who is to the right of General Mladic and is obviously smoking?

15        A.  That's Mr. Davidovic, the local SDS chairman for Bratunac.

16        Q.  And to his right in, apparently, a yellow or green shirt, who is

17     that?

18        A.  Mr. Simic who, I believe, at this time is the mayor of Bratunac.

19             MR. HARMON:  Okay, if we could continue.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. HARMON:  We have stopped at

22        Q.  To the right of Mr. Simic, the second person from the right

23     wearing a camouflage uniform, who is that?

24        A.  That's Dragomir Vasic.  He is the head of the security centre for

25     Zvornik.

Page 6572

 1        Q.  And to his right in a blue -- it looks like a blue blazer?

 2        A.  Miroslav Deronjic.  At this time he is the civilian commissioner

 3     for Srebrenica.

 4        Q.  And to his right, the far left of the image, he has a moustache

 5     and it looks like a camouflage vest?

 6        A.  That is Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, sir.

 7        Q.  All right.

 8             MR. HARMON:  If we could continue.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10        Q.  We've stopped at

11             Are you able to identify the person to the right of

12     Colonel Popovic?  Colonel Popovic at this time has a glass to his mouth.

13        A.  No, sir.

14        Q.  Okay.  And the person seated at the end of the table on the left,

15     who is that?

16        A.  That person is Colonel Jankovic.

17        Q.  Okay.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe that the language on the bottom will

22     also be part of the record.  And I noticed that when Colonel Karremans

23     was talking, he says, Is it suitable for a meeting.  And the language is

24     not contained in the actual written part right -- as here.  I don't know

25     whether or not that makes a difference or not with regard to the record.

Page 6573

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 2             MR. HARMON:  I -- we'll listen to this again.  I accept my

 3     colleague's observation.  It doesn't make any difference in terms what

 4     this film portrays.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought that language was written in the centre

 6     of the -- of the clip as they interpret.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You may be well -- you may well be right,

 8     Your Honour.  It's just as I was listening to Colonel Karremans talk, I

 9     heard him say, Is it was suitable.  And I didn't see that particular

10     language.  I was just raising the issue, but ...

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you just scroll.  Can you rewind a little bit,

12     please.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Maybe I missed it.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             Oh, yes, I see what you're saying.  Yes, it is there, yes.

16             MR. HARMON:

17        Q.  Mr. Butler, based on your review of the documents and the

18     materials available to you, do you know what time this meeting ended, and

19     do you know what happened shortly after this meeting, in Potocari?

20        A.  The meeting ended at approximately 1130 hours.  And shortly

21     thereafter, many of the VRS officers who were at this meeting, as well

22     as, of course, the Dutch, returned to Potocari.  And then shortly after

23     that, a number of buses and trucks start showing up in Potocari to begin

24     moving the civilian population out of the area.

25        Q.  Do you know how many Muslim civilians were in Potocari on that

Page 6574

 1     day, approximately?

 2        A.  Reports tend to vary from what the VRS reports versus what the

 3     United Nations reports.  I think the total number or generally accepted

 4     number is about 35.000 people were there.

 5        Q.  Okay.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Could we have 65 ter 4559O on the monitor.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. HARMON:  We've stopped at

 9        Q.   Are you able to identify which units these soldiers belonged to?

10        A.  Yes, sir.  These are individuals who are members of the

11     2nd Sekovici Special Police Unit, that is a member of the Republika

12     Srpska special police brigade.

13        Q.  And under whose command were they on this date?

14        A.  They were directly commanded by the Deputy Commander of the

15     special police brigade, Ljubo Borovcanin.

16        Q.  And under whose command was he operating?

17        A.  He was operating under military control, so it would have been

18     General Krstic.

19             MR. HARMON:  Okay.  Can we continue.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. HARMON:

22        Q.  Let me ask this question to clarify your last answer, Mr. Butler.

23             This film is taken in the morning of the 13th of July.

24     Would those soldiers have been under the command at that particular point

25     in time of General Krstic or General Zivonovic, or do you know?

Page 6575

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  Perhaps I'm mistaken.  When we

 3     started this film, it indicated that it was the 12th of July.

 4             MR. HARMON:  12th of July.  I meant the 12th of July.  That's

 5     correct.  Thank you, counsel.  12th of July.

 6        Q.  Mr. Butler, would these soldiers have been under the command of

 7     General Krstic who I understood was the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps

 8     at that time?

 9        A.  Yes, sir and General Zivonovic remains the corps commander, but

10     shortly after this period, General Zivonovic goes back to his command

11     post in around the Vlasenica area.  General Krstic is the senior officer

12     of the Drina Corps who remains on the ground at the time, so they are

13     under his control.

14             So I guess you could call it they are still under

15     General Zivanovic's command, but General Krstic is actually in charge of

16     the particular operation.

17        Q.  All right.  Thank you.

18             MR. HARMON:  If we could continue.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. HARMON:  We've stopped the film at

21        Q.  And in the image on the right-hand side you can see two DutchBat

22     soldiers, blue helmets and carrying rifles.

23             Mr. Butler, are you able, based on that image with those soldiers

24     and those weapons they're carrying, to put an approximate time on this

25     particular film clip on the 12th of July?

Page 6576

 1        A.  It would be the early afternoon hours, noon, 1300, maybe 1400 at

 2     the latest.  One of the things that the Dutch report is that as soon as

 3     Bosnian Serb military and police forces start entering the compound at

 4     Potocari, one of the things that they do is begin to systematically

 5     disarm the Dutch soldiers.

 6             So by the late afternoon hours on 12 July 1995, the Dutch have

 7     effectively been disarmed by the Republika Srpska police and military

 8     forces that are there.

 9        Q.  All right.  Thank you.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12             MR. HARMON:  We're going to replay -- play this for just a

13     minute.  I want to identify one person.

14        Q.  Okay, if you, Mr. Butler, I'd like you -- we've stopped the film

15     at  And there's an individual who appears to be throwing

16     something toward the children.  He is on the left-hand side of this

17     image; he's wearing a camouflage uniform.  Can you identify him?

18        A.  Yes, sir.  That is Ljubisav Borovcanin.  He is the deputy

19     commander of the Republika Srpska special police brigade.

20        Q.  Okay.  Thank you.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. HARMON:  We've stopped the film at

23        Q.  Mr. Butler, in the upper left-hand corner there's a logo.  Are you

24     able to identify that logo?

25        A.  Yes, sir.  Same symbol as before.  That's Serbia Radio and

Page 6577

 1     Television.

 2        Q.  All right.  Thank you.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4                 MR. HARMON:

 5        Q.  Mr. Butler, this is stopped at

 6             The soldier in the middle of this image with his arm, his right

 7     arm on his hip, who is that?

 8        A.  Again, sir, this is it General Major Radislav Krstic.

 9        Q.  And Do you know where this film clip was taken?

10        A.  This film clip was actually taken at Potocari.  As it pans along,

11     you will see one of the buildings there located in Potocari as well as

12     the buses going by.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. HARMON:  We have stopped the film at

15        Q.  And General Krstic is the individual in the middle of this image.

16     To his left in the background there is a figure who is walking in

17     General Krstic's direction.  Can you identify that individual, please?

18        A.  That, sir, is Colonel Popovic.

19        Q.  Colonel Vujadin Popovic, who we have seen in other film clips?

20        A.  Yes, sir.  The assistant commander for security for the Drina

21     Corps.

22        Q.  All right.

23             MR. HARMON:  Continue, please.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. HARMON:

Page 6578

 1        Q.  Now we have a new interview that is taking place.  We've stopped

 2     the film at  And the person being interviewed, the second

 3     individual from the left wearing a camouflage uniform, who is he, and

 4     what is his position?

 5        A.  He is Mr. Zoran Kovakovic.  He is the company commander of the 4th

 6     Infantry Company of the 2nd battalion of the Bratunac Light Infantry

 7     Brigade.

 8        Q.  Over his left soldier, appearing directly over his left soldier is

 9     a bald man with a black moustache.  Who is that?

10        A.  Yes, sir.  That is Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric, the chief of

11     intelligence of the Drina Corps.

12        Q.  And can you tell me where this interview is taking place?

13        A.  Also in Potocari, sir.

14        Q.  All right.

15             MR. HARMON:  Please continue.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, could this film clip be given an

18     exhibit number and admitted into evidence.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The film clip is admitted.  May it please be given

20     an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2393.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, this should be an appropriate time to

24     break.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Butler, unfortunately, we have not been able

Page 6579

 1     to finish with you today, so you are going to have to come back tomorrow

 2     at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in the same courtroom.  I believe

 3     you have been testifying here several times.  You must be knowing the

 4     procedure, but it is my duty it repeat it to you.  While you are on the

 5     witness stand, you may not discuss the case with anybody, not even with

 6     Mr. Harmon or anybody from the Prosecution.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I understand.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 9             The matter stands adjourned until tomorrow, at quarter past 2.00

10     in the afternoon, Courtroom II.

11             Court adjourned.

12                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of May,

14                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.