Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6929

 1                           Wednesday, 10 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.  I'll start again.

 8             Good morning to everybody in and around the courtroom.

 9             Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

11     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

12     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the

15     Prosecution, Mr. Harmon.

16             MR. HARMON:  Yes, good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

17     everyone in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Bronagh McKenna, and

18     Carmela Javier appearing for the Prosecution.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much Mr. Harmon.

20             And for the Defence, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

22     morning to everyone.  Representing Mr. Perisic today is Daniela Tasic,

23     Tina Drolec, Milos Androvic, and we have another intern with us,

24     Jason Keck, and by your leave, I would like to have him in the courtroom

25     here, and the Defence counsel Gregor Guy-Smith and Novak Lukic.

Page 6930

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 2             Good morning, Mr. Starcevic.  Again, Mr. Starcevic, you're still

 3     bound by the declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony

 4     to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 5             Thank you so much.

 6             Mr. Lukic.

 7                           WITNESS:  MIODRAG STARCEVIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Starcevic.

11             Today let us start and resolve the issue relating to the FRY

12     constitution and some of the articles that were in discrepancy.

13             In the meantime, we managed to upload the Official Gazette of the

14     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and, therefore, if we can look at

15     Exhibit 1D030105.  I can remind you that, so far, this document was

16     marked in e-court, P229.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said 1D03 ...

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 030105.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And that's P229.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] This is the first page.  And, Mr. Starcevic, can

22     you tell us what is this that you see in front of you?

23        A.   The constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry to interrupt again I realize that the

25     English side seems to be a book.

Page 6931

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  So the English

 2     version that can you see is still the document that has official

 3     translations because we did not manage to get official translations for

 4     ourselves, and together, with Mr. Harmon, I would like to see first how

 5     the -- how the front page look like and then we would send it for

 6     official translation.

 7             In the meantime, I would like to ask Mr. Starcevic just to read

 8     that particular article in which we are interested.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

10             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, you have read correctly, this the constitution of

12     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Can you tell us where the

13     constitution was published?  What is this kind of document?

14        A.   This is the Official Gazette of the Federal Republic of

15     Yugoslavia.  It's a publication where official texts of all laws,

16     constitutions, and other regulations are published.

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will, after all, have to leave this

19     topic until after the break, because I have just been told that only the

20     first page has been uploaded.  So until that happens, I will have to

21     address some other issues.

22             So can we please remove this from our screens, and we shall try

23     to solve this matter during the break.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, tell us that she sees 23 pages of

Page 6932

 1     this document.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I have been told,

 3     that is to say, that we don't have all the pages in the system, because

 4     the most important ones for us that speak about the army are somewhere in

 5     the latter part of the document, starting from Article 130.

 6             So once we manage to solve that, I think the things will run

 7     smoothly.

 8        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, yesterday, if you remember, we started discussing

 9     the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska.  We reviewed the articles which

10     defined the service in the Army of Republika Srpska, and the service

11     relations.

12             I would like, now, for us to discuss certain categories in the

13     service just like you did with Mr. Harmon, concerning the Law on VJ, and

14     I would like to do the same with this Law on the Army of RS.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Therefore, can we have on our screens

16     Exhibit P191, B/C/S page 15, English page 22, Article 153 of the Law on

17     the Army of Republika Srpska.

18        Q.   We are talking here about the status in the service, how

19     personnel are appointed, and the category that we referred to as the

20     service status; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Would you agree with me that this Article 153 of the Law on the

23     Army of RS provides similar definitions regarding the status in the

24     service concerning the appointments and other things, as does the Law on

25     the Army of the -- of Yugoslavia?

Page 6933

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Let us now turn to page 36 in B/C/S and page 54 in English,

 3     Article 370.  This article stipulates the responsibilities relating to a

 4     certain service status.

 5             So Article 370, and within the responsibility relating to

 6     status-related issues and adoption of other enactments it reads as

 7     follows:

 8             "The minister of defence an officers in certain units and

 9     institutions shall decide on:" --

10             And if we look at Item 4, which we are interested in, it reads:

11             "Appointment, transfer, and other status in the service of active

12     commissioned and non-commissioned officers to the rank of colonel ..."

13             Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, with one minor correction.  It says the minister of defence

15     and other and certain no not the Ministry of Defence.

16        Q.   So that in sense, this law differs from the Law on The VJ, is

17     that correct, in terms of designating the entity who appointed personnel?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   That's the difference, as far as I remember.  In the VJ army,

20     it's the chief of General Staff and the officers that he appoints.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll up this document

22     so that we can see, for a moment, Article 369.

23        Q.   Article 369 - and can you please remember this because we're

24     going to look at other documents - stipulates that the president of the

25     Republic shall decide on, and, then again, I'm interested in this part

Page 6934

 1     relating to appointments, that's point 3, and it reads:

 2             "Appointments, transfer, and other status in the service of the

 3     general ..."

 4             Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6        Q.   And this is a solution similar to those vested in the president

 7     of the Republic with regard to the VJ Army and generals in that army in

 8     particular.

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at document

11     P1731.

12             Can we please see the document 65 ter 361, page 8; page 6 in

13     English.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  We are getting lost.  I'm getting lost.

15     Are you abandoned P1731?

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no.  I'm looking for 65 ter 361,

17     page 8 in B/C/S and page 6 in English, and we can see both pages on our

18     screens now.

19        Q.   Can you please review this document, sir.

20        A.   Yes, I can see it.

21        Q.   If we can just scroll it down so that we can see who the author

22     of the document is.

23             So this an order issued by the minister of defence of Republika

24     Srpska, Mr. Dusan Kovacevic.

25             Can we again see the preamble, please.

Page 6935

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 2             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  This is a protected

 3     document.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

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Page 6936

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23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

Page 6937

 1             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  One moment, please.

 3                           [Defence counsel confer]

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to stay in closed session.

 5     May we please move into closed session because the document that I'm

 6     going to show comes from the group of documents under seal.  It's not on

 7     the 65 ter list, but I assume that I am correct in thinking that it's a

 8     document under seal.

 9             So if we can stay in private session, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please revert to private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

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Page 6938











11 Pages 6938-6944 redacted. Private session.















Page 6945

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17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at document

22     P1905.

23        Q.   You had an opportunity to discuss this document with Mr. Harmon

24     as well.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, just one moment.

Page 6946

 1        Q.   You have seen this document, and you gave your opinion,

 2     Mr. Starcevic.  This is a decree issued by the president of the Federal

 3     Republic of Yugoslavia on the 16th of June, 2001, according to which

 4     professional soldiers of the Yugoslav Army are being removed from the

 5     records, and under that, we have the list of names.

 6             If you look at number 7, we see the name of Krstic, Radislav; is

 7     that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And can we look at the date once again which is the 16th of June,

10     2001, which will serve as a basis for us to look at the next document,

11     which is 1D04-02111.  But before that, I think it would be advisable if

12     we moved into private session, and then I will check if we have

13     information about this document.

14             So first can we move into private session?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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Page 6947











11 Pages 6947-6952 redacted. Private session.















Page 6953

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Here we have a cover letter, to call it that, sent by the command

10     of the Slavonia and Baranja Corps, and this is a decree on early

11     promotion for Colonel Bogdan Sladojevic.  And can we look at -- but

12     before that, who was this sent to?

13        A.   There was sent to the accountants -- accounting centre of the

14     defence ministry of the Army of Yugoslavia.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go on and look at the

16     following page, please, which is page number 119 in B/C/S.  Document

17     number 65 ter is 7387, page number -- no.  Yes, this.  Yes.  I don't know

18     if we have an English translation.

19             Just a moment please.

20             1D03-0097.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Mr. Lukic is 1D03-0097

22     a page in 7387?  You've called two numbers now 65 ter 7387.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, all of that is part of the same

24     65 ter document, 7387.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

Page 6954

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we are showing the pages

 2     which are part of that one and the same document.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, I must understand what is happening.

 5             I'm advised that the B/C/S of the document on the screen is

 6     P1526.  The English version is a translation of that page which had not

 7     been part of the exhibit previously, so that, at the end, when you finish

 8     with this exhibit, you -- all you need really to do is to ask for the

 9     English version to be made part of P1526, in which case then, it seems to

10     me, as if 7387 and 1D03-0097 become redundant numbers which we can

11     scratch off.  Can we?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we've all had a

13     problem with the fact that parts of the large documents were already

14     introduced, and now we're trying to coordinate that with all the English

15     translations.  But I believe that we will be able to manage that

16     eventually.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  I'm also making sure that I'm able to

18     manage what I write here.  And, therefore, I want to know whether the

19     number 7387 has any meaning to me, or 1D03-0097 has any meaning, or

20     whether I should scratch them off.  Because the ruling number is P1526.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As the Registrar tells us, this is

22     P1526, and we are looking at the page to which we're going to attach its

23     English translation to be admitted as part of the document, if I'm not

24     mistaken.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, that's what she says.  Okay.  Thank you so

Page 6955

 1     much.

 2             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, this is a decree on earlier promotion for

 5     Colonel Bogdan Sladojevic, who was promoted to the rank of a

 6     major-general.  Based on what regulations was this decree issued; could

 7     you tell us?

 8        A.   Article 117 on the Law on Defence of the Republic of Serbian

 9     Krajina, as well as article -- I can't see the exact number of the

10     article.  However, it seems that something is missing.  It says 77,

11     paragraph 1, and a few articles of the Law on Service in the Armed Forces

12     of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

13        Q.   Yes, you're right.  It's not very legible.  The decision was

14     issued by the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, maybe it is

15     not very visible; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, that may well be the case, but I can't see the signature.

17        Q.   Even if we scroll down, it's still not make it very legible [as

18     interpreted].  You may try.

19        A.   No, but I can see it -- or I might be able to see it in English.

20        Q.   Would you say that this is Hadzic, perhaps?

21        A.   Yes, can I see it in the English version.  It says president of

22     the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Goran Hadzic, yes.

23        Q.   Very well.  It arises from this document that Bogdan Sladojevic

24     was exceptionally promoted as a member of the Army of the Republic of the

25     Serbian Krajina by the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in

Page 6956

 1     keeping with the president's authorities; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I would like the English translation to be attached to the

 4     original under number P1526, as we have already said this will -- would

 5     happen?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May it please be so added, Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document with ID number

 8     1D03-0097 will be added to Exhibit P1526.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we can stay in open

11     session.

12             Can the Court please produce P741.  P741.

13        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, you've already reviewed this document, and you

14     already provided comments on it during the examination-in-chief.  This

15     was signed by the chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia,

16     Mr. Momcilo Perisic.

17             Could you please look at the date when the document was issued

18     and then we will move on to some other documents in relation to this one.

19     We've already heard testimonies to this effect.

20        A.   It was on the 22nd of March, 1994.

21        Q.   Yes, you're right.  And can we now look at the following page,

22     please.  The following page, please.

23             It says under 5 that this decision makes a null and void decision

24     that was issued on the 18th of February of the same year, under number

25     245-1.

Page 6957

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   So we have a decision which was issued on the 22nd of March,

 3     1994.

 4             And can the Court now please produce P1810, which you also

 5     reviewed during your examination-in-chief.

 6             The previous document was decision on determining tasks and

 7     territories where service is performed under aggravated conditions, and

 8     now we are on the same ground, so to speak, with regard to the contents

 9     of the document.  The document refers to the recognition of certain

10     rights arising from serving under aggravated conditions.

11             As you already saw during examination-in-chief, the document was

12     issued by Military Post 3001, Belgrade; am I right?

13        A.   Yes, you are.

14        Q.   And it says it was issued on the 12th of May, 1994.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And now, as you're reading the document, you will see that the

17     decision applies to Ratko Mladic, lieutenant-general.  And under B, it

18     says the basis for issuing this decision by Military Post 3001 is a

19     decision of the commander of Military Post 3001, Belgrade confidential

20     number 21/32-21, am I right, dated 3rd of February, 1994?

21        A.   Yes, you're right.

22        Q.   And if we scroll up a little to see the statement of reasons.  Go

23     on, show the bottom part, please, in English as well.

24             It says in the statement of reasons that the basis for issuing

25     this decision is a decision of Military Post 3001 - please retain the

Page 6958

 1     date - the date is 3rd of February, 1994, and the number of the decision

 2     is 21/32-21; am I right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And can we now please look at document P2046?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you want to look at that document or do you

 6     want to do it after the break?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Please, let's look at it now.  It

 8     will only take me a minute.  There's a logical connection between the two

 9     documents.  Maybe the break can spill over a little bit, but I believe

10     that it will be beneficial if we look at the document now, that we ...

11        Q.   What I just showed you was the basis for the previous decision is

12     the decision that bears the number that you can now see in this decision

13     and the date as can you see in this decision.  However, it was not issued

14     by Military Post 3001.  It, rather, says here Military Post 7572,

15     Sarajevo; am I right?

16        A.   You are.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now scroll down a little to

18     show the stamp and who issued the document.  The stamp is of Military

19     Post Sarajevo, which is part of the Army of Republika Srpska; am I right?

20        A.   Yes, you are.

21        Q.   And secondary -- is General Ratko Mladic; however, it says

22     Milovanovic here, as far as I can see.  That's the signature.

23        A.   Yes, you're right.

24        Q.   This document recognises the rights of Ratko Mladic to serve

25     under aggravated conditions pursuant to a document that was issued by the

Page 6959

 1     Army of Republika Srpska.

 2        A.   Yes.  Actually, he, himself, issued it.

 3        Q.   Yes, you're right.  And this is the basis for the decision that

 4     we just saw a little while ago.  If you look at its date and the number.

 5        A.   Yes, that decision refers to this one as its basis.

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is a good time for our first

 8     break.  This document has already been admitted.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We'll take a break and come

10     back at a quarter to 11.00.

11             Court adjourned.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now try and solve the problem

16     of the constitution.

17             Ms. Javier helped all of us, the Defence and the Prosecution, by

18     informing us that there is already the constitution admitted into

19     evidence as Exhibit P1186.  So that's an Official Gazette, in which the

20     constitution was published.

21             So if we can see this document on our screens, please.

22        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, let us go back to the Official Gazette of the

23     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, dated 27th April, 1992; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   Where the constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is

Page 6960

 1     published; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And this is an official document that contains a law which has to

 4     be publicised; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move to page 10 in B/C/S

 7     and page 27 in the English version.  That's all right now.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   I'm going to read now, Mr. Starcevic, Article 135 of the

 9     constitution, which reads:  In wartime and peacetime, the Yugoslav Army

10     is under the command of the president of the Republic, in accordance with

11     the decisions of the Supreme Defence Council.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now the English says "pursuant."

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just had a conversation with our

14     interpreters about that, and what Mr. Starcevic explained to us

15     yesterday, and in our view, still constitutes a difference between the

16     two terms.

17             And now our interpreters - and I'm not saying that it was my

18     suggestion - have literally translate what happened I read.  Therefore, I

19     would propose, because we have an official document in B/C/S, that only

20     this page or, rather, the provisions that refer to the Yugoslav Army be

21     sent to the CLSS for translation, again, of this page and to say that it

22     is particularly important for them to focus on this term "in accordance

23     with the decisions," because we deem that to be extremely important.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We should then -- I know that yesterday we changed

25     the status of an exhibit into a MFI exhibit, which would then mean that

Page 6961

 1     we would have to do the same with this one?

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right, and I would suggest

 3     that this document be MFI'd, and since this is an official document in

 4     B/C/S, it should be sent for another translation for additional checking,

 5     and that after that, it will be acceptable.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, will be please change the status

 7     to P1186 to a marked for identification document, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that document will be marked for

 9     identification.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have to go into private session

12     again, please.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6962











11 Page 6962 redacted. Private session.















Page 6963

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6964

 1        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, I have some general questions.

 2             We have seen a number of documents that deal with the status in

 3     the service of members of the Army of Republika Srpska; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And these documents were adopted on the basis of the regulations,

 6     laws, and by-laws of Republika Srpska and the Serbian Republic of

 7     Krajina.

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're saying that the documents from the Serbian

10     Republic of Krajina were also regulating the status of service in the

11     Republika Srpska?

12             Look at the two questions.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes, that's right.  I will

14     be more accurate; I stand corrected.

15        Q.   Certain documents indicate that they regulated the status of

16     members of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Krajina in accordance with

17     the laws and regulations of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And these documents also indicate that these individual status

20     was regulated in the Army of Republika Srpska, and the Army of the

21     Serbian Republic of Krajina was regulated by superior officer, from top

22     to bottom; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   These documents also indicate that at the time of their issuance,

25     these particular individuals, members of the VRS and the SVK, were

Page 6965

 1     members of these armies?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And that they were serving in those same armies respectively?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Service implies carrying out military duties; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, more or less, but also some other duties that are part of a

 7     military service under certain regulations.

 8        Q.   This is stipulated by the law.  We needn't go into specific

 9     articles.

10             The status in the service as we discussed yesterday and today is

11     the relationship between the subordinate and the superior officers or

12     personnel?

13        A.   Yes.  We were discussing these type of relationships.

14        Q.   In your testimony, you also, as well as in the one month ago and

15     today, you have insisted on a difference between an order and a command

16     that the army issues; is that right?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   Based on your interpretation and your testimony, I understand

19     that in order --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  That a command is a

21     specific instruction given by the commander for a specific task to be

22     carried out.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in general term, that would be

24     the case.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6966

 1        Q.   Whereas an order governs the status in the service, and it is not

 2     related to the command function.

 3        A.   That's correct.  An order regulates the status in the service,

 4     but, at the same time, an order can also constitute a general enactment

 5     that governs some general issues and areas, not that affect not only

 6     individuals but the army as a whole [as interpreted].

 7        Q.   If an individual is not allowed to give a command to another

 8     individual, or if an individual has -- is not duty-bound to carry out

 9     that command, it would mean that he is not within his chain of command;

10     is that right?

11        A.   Yes, in principle that would be the case.

12        Q.   This is the main principle of the function of any military force,

13     command, issuing commands, and carrying out commands?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And now let's move on to a different topic and let us go back to

16     the Law on the Army of Yugoslavia.  P197 is the document that I would

17     like to look at, pages 14 and 39 B/C/S and English, respectively.  This

18     is the Law on the Army.  154.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Article 154 speaks about certain documents, including documents

22     that regulate the service status, promotion, transfer, and so on and so

23     forth.

24             I'm interested in the second paragraph where it says:

25             "The appeal of a professional service member against documents on

Page 6967

 1     assignment and transfer, putting on stand-by and removal from duty, shall

 2     not postpone their implementation."

 3             Is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, it is correct.

 5        Q.   This means that every member of a military, when issued with such

 6     a document, is entitled to exercise his free will and to provide his

 7     opinion on the decision.  There is an legal remedy which can he use,

 8     based on his free will, to appeal against any such decision or document.

 9        A.   Yes.  He has the right to appeal.

10        Q.   And if that person does not use the right to appeal, that means

11     that of their own free will, that they have accepted the document as

12     valid and that they're prepared to implement it?

13        A.   They have to implement the decision even if they appeal; however,

14     if they don't appeal, that shows the acceptance thereof.

15        Q.   The appeal does not delay the implementation, of course, you're

16     right, and everybody has the right to appeal.

17             Let's go on then.  We no longer need this particular law.  We

18     will need some other laws or maybe even this one, later on.

19             I'm going to open another topic and shed some light on some other

20     issues.

21             The Law on the Army of Yugoslavia envisages a possibility for

22     members of the army to be out of the command chain of the army and still

23     enjoy the same rights as if serving in the army.  I believe this was your

24     position in the ministry effectively, and I would like to say something

25     about that.

Page 6968

 1             Is it true that the Law on the Army envisages such a

 2     possibility --

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please produce Article 8,

 4     paragraph 2, of this document, pages 2 and 3 in B/C/S and English

 5     respectively.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which document?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P197 the same document.  I apologise.

 8     The same one that we were looking at a minute ago.

 9        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, you were serving in the federal Ministry of

10     Defence; am I right?

11             Could you please state that for the record.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   The federal Ministry of Defence was an institution, a state

14     institution, which was part of the state administration but not part of

15     the armed forces of Yugoslavia; am I right?

16        A.   Yes.  The Ministry of Defence was part of the so-called executive

17     power in the classical division of powers, and it represented an organ of

18     state administration.

19        Q.   Nobody from the armed forces could give you orders or command

20     you.  Your superior was the minister of defence or somebody below him,

21     but you were, in any case, a part of another chain of command?

22        A.   Yes.  As a member of the Ministry of Defence, I was not

23     subordinated to anybody outside of the Ministry of Defence.  Yesterday,

24     we already spoke about that.  In my chain of command, there was the chief

25     of sector that my administration belonged to, as well as the federal

Page 6969

 1     minister of defence.

 2        Q.   Similar status was enjoyed by members of the armed forces who

 3     worked in some other industries or some other state organs, pursuant to

 4     Article 8, paragraph 2.  In other words, they could be serving outside of

 5     the chain of command of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 6        A.   Yes, one could say so, although that was not the case across the

 7     board [Realtime transcript read in error "border"].  There were also

 8     people who were army personnel who represented the armed forces and were

 9     appointed to some organs an organisations which were not part of the

10     armed forces.  However, in principle, I can say yes.  People who were

11     appointed to serve in some other bodies and organs also belonged to some

12     other chain of command at the same time.

13        Q.   While you were working in the Ministry of Defence, what mattered

14     to you was that once you returned to the Army of Yugoslavia, you were

15     entitled to all the benefits and rights that you enjoyed while you were a

16     member of the Ministry of Defence, social benefits, seniority, deadlines

17     for promotion, and all the other benefits that would have applied if you

18     had served in the Army of Yugoslavia all the time.

19        A.   Of course.  We all thought that that was important, but this was

20     regulated by the law, so it was construed that in terms of those rights

21     and benefits, serving in the Ministry of Defence equalled serving in the

22     armed forces pursuant to the law.

23        Q.   Article 8, paragraph 2?

24        A.   Yes, precisely.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 40, line 14, the witness said

Page 6970

 1     yes one can say so.  However, the witness didn't say, "... that was not

 2     the case across the border."  No border came into play.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Today I have not mentioned any

 4     borders.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes the phrase used was this

 6     was not applied across the board.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I should stop there, line 14, page

 8     40, I believe your answer stopped at "yes, one" -- "one could say so,"

 9     and then ...

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   It's very good when we have a witness who actually understands

13     and speaks English.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why do you want to cut off the rest of what he had

15     said?  Why do you say his answer should stop at "Yes, one could say so"?

16     He did continue to say, "... although that was not the case across the

17     board."

18             Didn't you say so, Mr. Starcevic?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please have another look at

20     line 14 on page 40.

21             I said that this was the case in principle.  However, there were

22     some soldiers who were sent by the Army of Yugoslavia to other organs,

23     hence they remained in the command chain of the Army of Yugoslavia.  What

24     I was talking about was whether I belonged to another parallel chain of

25     command, and the answer was yes, we, in the Ministry of Defence belonged

Page 6971

 1     to another chain of command and so did people who were sent to some other

 2     organs of state administration or companies.  However, there are also

 3     professional soldiers from the Army of Yugoslavia who were sent to

 4     certain organs and remained in the chain of command of the army.

 5             This was the essence of my answer.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Let's move on, and we will come back to this relationship

 8     referred to in Article 8, paragraph 2.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce P363.

10        Q.   I believe you have reviewed this document with Mr. Harmon, that

11     you're familiar with it.

12             You remember that you already reviewed this document and provided

13     comments upon it.

14        A.   Yes, I believe so.

15        Q.   In the last part of this document it says that:

16             This is a certificate which was issued for the person, and it

17     says here that he was wounded on the 2nd of January, 1994, while caring

18     out combat activities, i.e., securing the state border; is that correct?

19     And the person in question is Milan Popovic.

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go into private session

22     for a moment.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 6972











11 Page 6972 redacted. Private session.















Page 6973

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   A few questions arise from your examination-in-chief on the

22     regulations of duplication of the international law on war in the armed

23     forces of the SFRY.

24             Can we please look at P3204.  Firstly can we please look at --

25     have I misspoke?

Page 6974

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have.  We haven't reached the 3.000 of

 2     exhibits yet.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P2304, and the pages are 10 and 8 in

 4     B/C/S and English, respectively.  I apologise, B/C/S, 10; English, 6.

 5             I apologise, can we have the previous page in B/C/S?  I need the

 6     order on the application -- no, the page is okay.  I believe that

 7     Mr. Starcevic will be familiar with the document.

 8        Q.   This is actually what precedes to the instruction on the

 9     regulation on the application of the international law on war in the

10     armed forces of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia.  This is

11     an order, therefor, which was signed by the president of the Presidency

12     of the SFRY, and this is an order on the application of the rules of the

13     international law on war in the armed forces of the Socialist Federative

14     Republic of Yugoslavia, and now what we can see on the screen is the

15     B/C/S version, the continuation of the order.  We don't have to.  And I'm

16     interested in Article 2.

17             I apologise for skipping parts.  It says that the federal

18     secretary for national defence is hereby authorised to prescribe the

19     instructions for application of the international laws of war in the

20     armed forces.

21             This was issued in the armed forces.  I apologise.  This was

22     issued on 13th of April, 1988?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And what ensues is the instruction which was signed, I suppose,

25     let me not speculate.  Do you maybe know who sign it?

Page 6975

 1        A.   I believe that it was the time of either Admiral Mamula and

 2     General Ljubicic.  I'm not sure.

 3        Q.   This is the instruction that you asked questions posed by

 4     Mr. Harmon and specifically concerning this order; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you see -- you see the capital letters

 7     on the screen?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was first asking questions about

 9     the order, but now we are going to move to something that we need to look

10     into, and that is Article 1.  That's on page 8 in English and page 10 in

11     B/C/S.  That's Article 1 of the instruction.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But all I'm saying is pause between question and

13     answer.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we have two pages in

15     B/C/S.  Therefore, it should be page 10 but only the second portion of

16     the page.  I'm interested in the right-hand side of the screen.

17        Q.   It reads in the preamble, or introductory provisions, Item 1:

18             "Content and application of instructions.  The provisions of

19     these instructions contain the principles and rules of international laws

20     of war in armed conflicts of an international nature and prescribe the

21     manner of application of those rules in the armed forces ..."

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have next page in B/C/S.

23        Q.    "... of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (the

24     Yugoslav People's Army and Territorial Defence) in an armed conflict in

25     which the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (herein after:  The

Page 6976

 1     SFRY) participates."

 2             The next paragraph reads:

 3             "If the SFRY is not participating in an international armed

 4     conflict, the armed forces of the SFRY shall apply the provision of Part

 5     One (chapter 12), Part Two (chapters 3 - Items 328 and 336 and chapter

 6     6), and Part Three (chapter 8) of these instructions when so ordered by

 7     the Supreme Command of the armed forces of the SFRY (hereinafter referred

 8     to as the Supreme Command)."

 9             As I read this document, the application of this instruction is

10     limited under Item 1 to an armed conflict in which the SFRY is involved;

11     is that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   There were certain orders, I think, issued by the JNA General

14     Staff issued in 1991 which had a bearing on the implementation of these

15     provisions to the conflict that was -- that was being carried out in

16     Yugoslavia at the time and in which the SFRY was involved.

17        A.   Yes.  But one has to bear in mind that the then SFRY undertook an

18     obligation to implement all the four Geneva Conventions, the first

19     Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions, the customs of war by

20     virtue of a special memorandum on understanding signed by many parties,

21     including the then armed forces of Croatia, the SFRY, the competent

22     organs of Serbia, and, among other things, on the basis of this, the

23     chief of General Staff issued two orders requiring the adherence to the

24     provisions of the international law.  I think it took place within the

25     span of one or two months.  We had two orders regulating this area, and I

Page 6977

 1     think one of those orders was even published in the media.

 2        Q.   This is what you spoke about in your interview with the

 3     Prosecution a few years ago.  That is what the situation was at the time,

 4     given that the JNA was involved in an armed conflict that was being waged

 5     in -- within the SFRY.

 6        A.   Yes.  Because this was not an international conflict.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, could the witness please

 8     repeat his answer.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry.  The interpreters ask that the

10     witness repeat the last part of the answer.  They didn't hear.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since this was an internal conflict

12     in the territory of the state of the SFRY, there was no obligation to

13     apply all the rules of international humanitarian law.  Since the

14     conflict was of such intensity that it made it necessary for nearly all

15     international law regulations to be applied, the solution was found in

16     the form of the memorandum that I mentioned, in which the parties'

17     signatories committed themselves to applying all those rules that are

18     otherwise applicable only in international conflicts.  And that was done

19     by making reference to the Geneva Conventions, which allow for a

20     possibility for such covenants and agreements to be concluded, and this

21     had no bearing on the nature of the conflict itself.  It didn't change

22     its nature.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   It seems that we are in your favourite realm of expertise.

25        A.   It seems so.

Page 6978

 1        Q.   Let us go back to the instruction that were asked about by

 2     Mr. Harmon, and you gave answers to Mr. Harmon about Articles 20, 21, and

 3     37.

 4             Article 1 of this instruction is applicable if the SFRY is one of

 5     the parties involved in a war conflict.

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   You are not aware that the SFRY has ever declared to be at war

 8     until 1999 and the Kosovo war.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Let us move on.

11             Another thing which is related, in a way, to the answers you gave

12     to Mr. Harmon relating to the provisions from Article 21 of the

13     instruction on the implementation of international law, and this

14     specifically refer to command responsibility.

15             Mr. Starcevic, do you agree with me that the Criminal Code of the

16     former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Criminal Code of

17     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia did not provide in their regulations

18     the existence of command responsibility as a form of criminal

19     responsibility?

20        A.   Yes.  This is not my area of expertise any longer, but I cannot

21     fully agree with you.  There was no provision that governed the command

22     responsibility that would explicitly contain the notion and the term

23     "command responsibility."  However, there were provisions in the

24     Criminal Code that very much resembled, by their essence and substance,

25     the notion of responsibility for the acts committed by one's

Page 6979

 1     subordinates.  Of course, at this moment, I cannot remember all of these

 2     provisions, but let me give you an example.

 3             This is an provision which says that an act of omission to

 4     undertake certain measures, in order to prevent the commission of a

 5     crime, very much resembles the concept that we all know nowadays as

 6     command responsibility.  Of course, this does not apply to the full

 7     extent and it is not as precise -- precisely defined as it is today.

 8     Nevertheless, I believe that some form of such or similar responsibility

 9     did exist at the time.

10        Q.   There was a lot of debate among professionals, not only in Serbia

11     but also in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, when this court decided to

12     defer certain cases to their domestic courts about whether these notions

13     actually exist in the domestic law or not.

14             [No interpretation]

15        A.   Yes, there was such a debate.

16        Q.   At any rate, the way the command responsibility in Article 21 is

17     formulated is not formulated in the same way in the Criminal Codes; is

18     that right?

19        A.   Yes, I can agree with that.

20        Q.   We'll leave it at that.

21             Mr. Starcevic, you know that Republika Srpska had a military

22     judiciary, military courts, and military prosecutors' office which were

23     all regulated by the law?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   One of the tasks of every prosecutor's office, including a

Page 6980

 1     military prosecutor's office, and, of course, the prosecutor's office of

 2     Republika Srpska, is to monitor the changes and developments in society

 3     and to include all the deviations and the anti-social behaviour in the

 4     regulations.

 5        A.   Yes, I believe that is the role of the prosecutor's office.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see document D106.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   If you look at the first page of this document, Mr. Starcevic,

10     you will see that this is a document produced by the Main Staff of the

11     Army of Republika Srpska, the military prosecutor's office, entitled:

12     Guidelines for determining the criteria for criminal prosecution.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we can scroll it down to see the

14     date of the document.

15        Q.   1992; is that right?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

17             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, before Mr. Starcevic is asked questions

18     about this document, I would ask that there be a connection established

19     between Mr. Starcevic and this document.  If we're going to ask opinions

20     about this, I don't believe Mr. Starcevic was the author of this

21     document.  I'm not sure he has seen this document before.  So I would

22     object at this point unless a proper foundation is laid.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think they already

25     established the foundation by asking Mr. Starcevic what, according to his

Page 6981

 1     knowledge, was one of the tasks of the military prosecutor's office, and

 2     he said that this was monitoring the changes in society, as one of their

 3     tasks.

 4             Since we are talking here about criminal offences that have a

 5     reflection on the international humanitarian law, I don't see the grounds

 6     for objection.  I think that on the basis of the fact, and the

 7     professional experience of Mr. Starcevic and what he did in the Ministry

 8     of Defence, is familiar with how the military prosecutor's office

 9     operated and on which guidelines it operated.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

11             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, this is it a document that is not a VJ

12     document.  It's a document of the VRS.  It's a document from a different

13     country.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Mr. Starcevic

15     answered Mr. Harmon's questions about the Army of Republika Srpska.

16     Amongst other things, Mr. Harmon asked Mr. Starcevic about the six

17     strategic goals of Republika Srpska and asked for an answer about

18     decision, political decision, of the political leadership of

19     Republika Srpska, and Mr. Starcevic said what he did.

20             However, it was Mr. Harmon who asked Mr. Starcevic to provide

21     questions [as interpreted] about Republika Srpska, and I believe what is

22     relevant about this document is what concerns crimes about which

23     Mr. Starcevic talked when he answered Mr. Harmon's questions about

24     criminal and disciplinary responsibility of the members of the Army of

25     Republika Srpska.

Page 6982

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you remind me, I may have forgotten, did

 2     Mr. Harmon tender an exhibit on the strategic objectives of the

 3     Republika Srpska through this witness?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... questions.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... we have a

 9     document, which has already been made an exhibit, and I'm in the same

10     situation as Mr. Harmon.  I have shown him an exhibit, a Defence exhibit,

11     and I'm asking him questions.  And if you remember, Mr. Harmon asked him

12     about the Posavina corridor, and it was then when he asked a question

13     that transpired from the document, and he wanted to hear his knowledge

14     about the facts concerning Republika Srpska.  And this is what Mr. Harmon

15     was asking him.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You say this is already an exhibit?  It does seem

17     as if your objection is unfounded, Mr. Harmon.

18             It is D106, in fact, so you may proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the Court please produce B/C/S

20     page 6 -- I apologise, page 5, and page 2 in the English version.

21        Q.   This is a lengthy document, but we're going to look at just a few

22     paragraphs, and I will ask for your opinion, or, rather, your answer with

23     regard to the factual basis for this document.

24             Before I ask you anything about document, let us establish

25     something as the basis for my future questions.  While you were a member

Page 6983

 1     of the JNA and a member of the Army of Yugoslavia, you actively

 2     participated in the negotiations and talks with the representatives of

 3     Croatia, if I remember well, with regard to the elucidation of some

 4     crimes, actually facts concerning the events in Vukovar.  In other way

 5     [as interpreted], you were familiar and you participated in the work of

 6     the commission which was set up to establish the origins of war crimes?

 7        A.   Not exactly.  I participated in the work of a joint commission

 8     that searched for missing persons.  In other words, we were not there to

 9     establish the existence of any crimes.  We just tried to determine the

10     destiny of the persons who had been reported as missing.

11        Q.   Very well.  However, as a member of the commission, you received

12     information from the other side when they had suspicions about certain

13     crimes that resulted in certain persons missing.

14        A.   Yes, in principle, the factual basis or the -- what preceded the

15     disappearance of some persons were crimes, according to what the other

16     side told us.  And the same applied to our side, in our -- in our

17     requests upon the Croatian side.

18        Q.   When you say "our side," you mean the JNA?

19        A.   Yes, of course, I mean the JNA.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, we can all sing together at the same

21     time.  We should not all speak at the same time.  Thank you.

22             Give each other a chance.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   And now let's go back to the document, page 2.  Can we scroll up

25     a little?  I say page 2, because, actually, well ...

Page 6984

 1             A little bit further up for the B/C/S page.  Thank you.

 2             I would like to start reading there.  Very well, "expressing our

 3     opinion," I'm going to read this:

 4             "Expressing our opinion on the danger that certain types of

 5     criminal offences constitute a society at the time present time.  And a

 6     fierce battle for the survival of the certain people of the Republika" --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, slow down.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "When a fierce battle for the

 9     survival of the Serbian people of the Republika Srpska and its citizens

10     is being fought, we warn of the increased danger posed to society by

11     perpetrators of the following criminal offences ..."

12             Under 1:  "The criminal offence of failure to respond to military

13     call-up and avoidance of military service ..."

14             Could you please turn to the following page in B/C/S.

15              "... pursuant to Article 214 of the Criminal Code."

16             Under 2:  "The criminal offence of wilfully absenting oneself

17     from one's post and desertion from the armed forces pursuant to

18     Article 217 of the Criminal Code."

19             Under 3:  "The criminal offences against humanity and

20     international law pursuant to Chapter 16 of the Criminal Code."

21             According to this document and according to the military

22     prosecutor's office, they point to this group of crimes that should be

23     paid particular attention to; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And now, since the document is a lengthy one, let's look at the

Page 6985

 1     B/C/S, page 29, and page 8 in the English version, paragraph 3.

 2             These are guidelines provided by the military prosecutor.  It

 3     says:

 4             "It follows from the above that officers in all units must accept

 5     the obligation to draft reports on all incidents which might be regarded

 6     as criminal offences, regardless of whether they have been committed by

 7     members of the Army of Republika Srpska or by members of the enemy side,

 8     and to report to the command any information learnt about previous

 9     incidents.  This these cases, the commands have a duty to inform, amongst

10     others, the military prosecutor's office, which will, after making an

11     assessment, take appropriate action in keeping with the law and the

12     prosecution policy."

13        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, given the seriousness of the crimes that fall

14     under the chapter of crimes against the international humanitarian law,

15     did the military prosecutor have the right to focus on these crimes, if

16     that military prosecutor's office was within the system of a state that

17     was involved in an armed conflict?

18        A.   Yes, I believe that it was only normal for the military

19     prosecutor's office to point to the danger arising from this type of

20     crimes and to step up activities against such crimes, which necessarily

21     increase under the circumstances of war.

22        Q.   This document is in the form of guidelines.  How or to what

23     extent is it binding on units at all levels?

24        A.   I believe that the document is particularly binding upon the

25     prosecutors who were subordinated to the military prosecutor's office and

Page 6986

 1     the military prosecutors shall take this as a binding instruction.  I

 2     believe that you understand this better than me.

 3             A prosecutor's office is entitled to issue a binding instructions

 4     upon its subordinated prosecutors.  It is just an instruction for all the

 5     other units who should bear in mind that the prosecutor's office will pay

 6     special attention to the activities that lead to the prosecution of

 7     persons charged with having committed such crimes or --

 8        Q.   Officers in such units are duty-bound, should they learn of

 9     crimes having been committed by members the their units to inform the

10     prosecutor's office, and the prosecutor's office should then proceed in

11     accordance with the law and prosecute in accordance with the law.

12        A.   Yes.  In a certain way, this just -- just emphasised the command

13     responsibility of every commander.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Very well.  And all this applies to the Army of

15     Republika Srpska.  The document applies to the Army of Republika Srpska

16     and the guidelines that were provided by the prosecutor's office of the

17     Army of Republika Srpska; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   Let's move on to a different topic, just briefly before our next

20     break.  P197.  B/C/S, 60; in English, page 45.  Article 181 of the Law on

21     the Army of Yugoslavia.  This is what we're looking at.

22             Article 181 deals with bringing the perpetrator of disciplinary

23     offence before a military disciplinary court.

24             A distinction is made between the person who is authorised to

25     bring -- to -- instituting disciplinary proceedings.

Page 6987

 1        A.   Yes, this is the authority for starting disciplinary proceedings.

 2        Q.   In the federal Ministry of Defence, given the fact that this

 3     state organ is not in the command chain of the Army of Yugoslavia, this

 4     authority falls within the purview of the federal minister or the

 5     commanding officer subordinated directly to him; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   And it says here that the commander of the army or an equal or a

 8     higher position -- why is there a distinction being made here as to who

 9     is entitled to starting -- disciplinary proceedings?  Is it because the

10     members of the Army of Yugoslavia who are in the federal Ministry of

11     Defence were not in the command chain of the army?

12        A.   Yes.  This is precisely the reason for making such a distinction,

13     because military discipline is just one of the elements of command and

14     control.  So any decision with regard to military discipline should be

15     taken and should be in the hands of the one who is also a member of the

16     same chain of command.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is a good time

18     for our next break, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We will take a break and

20     come back at half past 12.00.

21             Court adjourned.

22                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, let us say that

Page 6988

 1     Ms. Colleen Rohan has joined us in the courtroom.  She is our legal

 2     consultant.

 3             And now let's move to a different topic, still talking about the

 4     same exhibit, P197; 13 in the B/C/S version and 37 in the English

 5     version, Article 1501 [as interpreted] on both pages.  151 is the article

 6     number.

 7        Q.   You have already provided answers to my learned friend,

 8     Mr. Harmon, about that.  Let shed some more light on the same part of the

 9     law.

10             The provisions of Article 151, 152, and further on are part of

11     the chapters speaking about the authority to decide on service relations

12     and issue of other documents.  Is that the case?  This is at least what

13     it says here.

14        A.   Yes, of course.

15        Q.   I believe that you have already mentioned that the president of

16     the Republic, pursuant to Article 151, is -- shall deal with promotions

17     to the rank of general; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   According to Article 152, the chief of the General Staff and the

20     commanding officers of units or institutions designated by him shall

21     promote professional officers to lower ranks than that; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I have noticed that you have been referring to a document.  Could

24     you please provide a further explanations?  You have been referring to

25     the order on authorities.

Page 6989

 1             Did you mean by that the order on determining authorities and

 2     powers of officers to deal with service-related matters in the Army of

 3     Yugoslavia?

 4        A.   Yes that's exactly what I meant.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm in the hands of Trial Chamber.  I

 6     have not disclosed a document to Mr. Harmon.  It's a document that I have

 7     come across which was published in the Official Gazette as an official

 8     document.  I believe that in the course of this trial it will be an

 9     important and useful document.  At the moment, I don't have its English

10     translation, maybe --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, carry on.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document is three pages long.

13     It's not a short document.  Maybe I could put some general questions to

14     Mr. Starcevic without putting the document on the ELMO; or,

15     alternatively, with your approval and the approval of Mr. Harmon, we

16     could put the entire hard copy of the document on the ELMO and read some

17     of its parts.  But I want to play fair, vis-a-vis the Prosecutor, I don't

18     want Mr. Harmon to object.  Can I put questions without showing the

19     document to the witness.

20             Why did occur to me?  Because yesterday while Mr. Starcevic was

21     providing his answers, I could hear him referring to this order on

22     responsibilities and authorities, and I made sure that I found the

23     document.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

25             MR. HARMON:  Well, certainly if there are going to be any

Page 6990

 1     questions about the document I'd like to get a copy of it.  I'd like to

 2     see it.  I would like to have it translated, so I can, if necessary, ask

 3     Mr. Starcevic some questions about.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, do you have -- the document needs

 5     translation?

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I don't have a

 7     translation and that is the problem.  I have a translation only in B/C/S.

 8     I currently have two hard copies of the document.  The document is three

 9     pages long.  I can show it to Mr. Harmon to show him that this was

10     published in the official military gazette.  I'm sure that Mr. Harmon

11     will want to have the English translation of the entire document, and I

12     believe it would take too much time for us to read the whole document in

13     the original in the courtroom and have it translated by the interpreters.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the thing.  But even before we get to that

15     stage, Mr. Harmon must have read it and understood and decided that he

16     agrees.

17             So it does look as if you were not able to use the document.

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that at a later stage of this

21     trial it will be much easier for the parties to introduce this document.

22     However, I'm going to ask Mr. Starcevic, since in his

23     examination-in-chief and yesterday he made reference to this order, to

24     tell us what this document is about in order to facilitate its

25     understanding at a later date.

Page 6991

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm going to do my best.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 3             MR. HARMON:  I would like a copy in -- in the Serbian language,

 4     so perhaps by tomorrow, I can get it translated, and in light of the

 5     answers that Mr. Starcevic will be giving, I will be in a better position

 6     to either clarify or respond so ...

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you agree so far.

 8             Are you done with the document that's on the screen, sir?  You

 9     want to move to [Overlapping speakers].

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] Yes, yes, I

11     am.

12        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, I presume that you are familiar with this order

13     and it needn't be shown to you.  I'm going to ask you a few questions

14     about this document.

15             Can you tell us what is governed by this document, by this order,

16     and I'm going to repeat, once again, that this is an order on determining

17     responsibilities and authorities of officers in solving service-related

18     issues and relations in the Army of Yugoslavia, issued by

19     Momcilo Perisic, lieutenant-general, on the 25th of April, 1994.

20        A.   I will do my best, but I think that my response would be better

21     understood if we -- if we still had the documents on the screen that we

22     had been looking at before.

23        Q.   We can solve this technical issue.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So, please, can we have Article 152

25     back.  This is P197, English, page 38 and B/C/S, page 13.

Page 6992

 1             So if we can have this on the screen.  And it's Article 152.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order that we are discussing is

 3     a by-law, which serves for the implementation of the authorities

 4     enshrined in paragraph 1 of Article 152.

 5             As we can see from this Article, the chief of the General Staff

 6     is responsible for solving these relations, as well as the officers of

 7     units or institutions designated by him.

 8             And below that, we have a whole range of status-related issues

 9     and relations that are subject to -- to being solved.  Some of them are

10     resolved and determined directly by the chief of General Staff.  However,

11     for a majority of them, he entrusts these tasks to his subordinate

12     officers, and if I remember correctly, or that was at least how it was

13     while I was there, the basic criterion for the distribution of

14     responsibilities were ranks and positions held by professional soldiers.

15             In order for everyone to understand what I'm talking about, let's

16     say when it comes to promotion of non-commissioned officers, the

17     responsibility and the authority lies with the officers who hold the post

18     of army commander or an equal one.  When it comes to promoting officers

19     up to the level or rank of major, I think it is again the army commander

20     or an officer with equal position and rank.  When it comes to promotion

21     up to the level of colonel, the chief -- the chief of General Staff is

22     authorised to do that.

23             So this is what the order speaks about, and in each individual

24     case listed here under Item 1 to 7 in Article 152.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6993

 1        Q.   Precisely so.  In addition to determining the responsibilities

 2     and authorities stipulated by this order, I'm going to put to you a

 3     general question, because I don't want you to have this order in front

 4     you.  We shall provide copies for the Chamber later, for everyone here.

 5             It was possible to launch the procedures that precede the

 6     issuance of certain documents, so, therefore, these kind of procedures

 7     could have been entrusted to the officers in subordinate units.

 8        A.   Yes.  This was how it was done in principle.  This order also

 9     provides a description or the procedure, according to which these

10     authorities are exercised.

11        Q.   If this article says the chief of General Staff and the officers

12     mentioned here designated by him are acting in these aspect according to

13     the law.

14        A.   Yes, that's right.  They are dealing with these relations and

15     providing solutions independently.

16        Q.   Very well.  Just a moment, please.

17             Let us now look at a similar document.  Actually, I would like to

18     look at Article 156 of this law.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's on page 13 and 14 in B/C/S and

20     page 39 in English.

21        Q.    "If a law or other regulation issued in accordance with the law

22     does not stipulate the authority of another organ to decide on

23     administrative matters in the first instance, the individual responsible

24     is the commander of the unit or institution holding a position of

25     commander of independent battalion ... or regiment commander - brigade,

Page 6994

 1     or the commander of a unit or institution holding an equal or higher

 2     position for which the rank of lieutenant-colonel or higher rank is

 3     designated.

 4              "The commander of the unit or institution immediately superior

 5     to the commander who issued the decision in the first instance shall

 6     decide on appeal against the decision of the commander from paragraph 1

 7     herein."

 8             Which means that there's a two-tier system when it comes to

 9     appeals and it is provided by the law which is the highest instance that

10     is going to have a final decision on this document?

11        A.   Yes, this article has a dual meaning since this is what we, in

12     our legal system, call administrative matters.  That is to say, taking

13     decisions that affect obligations and rights of individuals.  In order to

14     establish their responsibility in full, it is possible -- it necessary to

15     establish the actual responsibility which means a specific duties to be

16     done, and this is regulated by the order that we mentioned before.

17             However, this is not sufficient because it is necessary also to

18     determine the territorial jurisdiction, because there are a lot of

19     officers who hold the identical position and the law demands to know who

20     precisely is going to act in every single instance.  And this is what is

21     regulated by this article by saying that the territorial jurisdiction is

22     granted to one of the commanding officers within the unit where the

23     person about whose rights are being determined is serving.  And, in that

24     way, you also have a procedure for the second instance proceedings,

25     because the one who is directly responsible to decide can also be

Page 6995

 1     responsible to decide on the appeal.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document P882 [as

 3     interpreted], please.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, P822.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You have already had an opportunity to see this document, and you

 7     commented on it in examination-in-chief.

 8             This is a judgement rendered by the Second Municipal Court, in

 9     Belgrade, which is a civilian court, based on the charges filed by --

10     charges brought by the plaintiff, Dragomir Milosevic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's page 2 in the English, I think.

12        Q.   Let us first, for administrative matters, move to the area of

13     civil law.

14             This was a litigation that was conducted by a municipal court; is

15     that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   We saw on page 1 that the judgement and the form of it was

18     consistent to the ones passed in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and

19     the judgement is passed in the name of the people, and it is a public

20     document.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Nowhere in this judgement can one see that the public was

23     excluded during the proceedings instituted by Mr. Milosevic against the

24     state of Yugoslavia?

25        A.   As far as I had the time to go through the judgement, I don't see

Page 6996

 1     anything like that anywhere.

 2        Q.   Would you agree with me --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have lost me when you say, No one can see that

 4     the public was excluded during the proceedings.

 5             What do you mean by that, that it doesn't happen in closed

 6     session?  What do you mean?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  There are certain

 8     provisions in the law under litigations that provide for the possibility

 9     to exclude the public from the hearing, but then it is stated in the

10     judgement.

11        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, when a judgement is rendered in litigation

12     process, then this judgement has to list all the evidence on the basis of

13     which the court has established certain facts, and these facts are

14     evaluated.  This ordinary and customary way of writing a judgement; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   Yes.  The factual status is the foundation for the judgement.

17        Q.   And in the record of the hearing contains all the evidence read

18     out by the panel of judges, if these are written evidence [as

19     interpreted]?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What you see on page 2 is a list of evidence presented in these

22     proceedings before the Second Municipal Court.  You cannot find any

23     document that originated [as interpreted] from the Army of Republika

24     Srpska; is that correct?

25        A.   No, I don't.

Page 6997

 1        Q.   That means that the final part of the judgement, the conclusions,

 2     means that the judgement was rendered, based on the evidence presented by

 3     both parties, which generated exclusively from the Yugoslav organs.

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   And among this evidence presented before the court, were certain

 6     elements that were decisive in the process of reaching judgement and the

 7     conclusion, but there is no claim to the effect that

 8     Mr. Dragomir Milosevic was, at any time, a member of Army of Republika

 9     Srpska?

10        A.   No, one cannot deduce that from this judgement.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have finished with this document.

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like just to correct one

15     mistake in the transcript, which is due, I suppose, my speed of speech.

16             On page 67, line 24, I said one cannot see from this document

17     that there was a single document that generates from the Army of

18     Republika Srpska.

19             We are going to address now a very short topic, and we're going

20     back to P197, which is the Law on the Army.

21             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, just to -- to for the benefit of

22     Mr. Lukic while Mr. Starcevic is here, I have just been informed that the

23     OTP does possess an English translation of the document that Mr. Lukic

24     passed me a few minutes ago, the order on establishing the

25     responsibilities and powers of officers regarding service-related issues

Page 6998

 1     in the VJ.

 2             So I have no objection to Mr. Starcevic being given a copy of

 3     this and shown this, and I will look at it after court today to be in a

 4     better position then.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

 6             Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, it would be fine

 8     if we could go back in order to finish the discussion about the order on

 9     the responsibilities.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're only able to go back if Mr. Harmon is able

11     to upload for us the English version, because, otherwise, you're going to

12     be speaking alone, and we won't be having the English version.

13             MR. HARMON:  It can be done, Your Honour.  It will take about 15

14     minutes, so perhaps Mr. Lukic could defer his re-examination on this

15     topic, and I will inform Your Honours when it is uploaded.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we shall continue, and then we

18     will come back to that topic.  And in the meantime, let's go back to the

19     document that I called a minute ago, which is P197, pages 4 and 9 in

20     B/C/S and English, respectively, Article 37 of the Law on the Army.

21        Q.   I believe that you have already reviewed this, Mr. Starcevic, but

22     now I am going to ask you for your additional comment.

23             In paragraph 1, it says that a professional soldier must carry

24     out the orders issued by superior officers regarding the service except

25     if the carrying out of the order would be a criminal act.

Page 6999

 1             I believe this is very clear.

 2             I'm interesting in the following -- I apologise.  I am interested

 3     in paragraph 4.

 4             If he receives an order, the carrying out of which would

 5     represent a criminal act, a service member must immediately report such

 6     order to a superior commanding officer or an officer of a higher rank

 7     than the officer who issued the order.

 8             Or a service member must require that a senior officer who issued

 9     such an order repeat it in written form.

10             There is it distinction between a crime and a violation of a law.

11     Why is that the case, and what the consequences of an order which

12     violates law?

13        A.   The consequence -- the distinction is very intentional because a

14     violation of law does not have to be such a serious matter, and it does

15     not have to entail criminal responsibility.  However, it may entail some

16     other type of responsibility.  For example, it may entail a compensation

17     for damages.

18             For example, in such cases, when a violation of law has been

19     established, when it, indeed, exists, but an execution of an order would

20     not constitute a crime, then a subordinate is not in a position to refuse

21     to carry -- carry out an order.  He has to execute the order, but he has

22     the right to request from the person who issued the order in the first

23     place to repeat that order in a written form.

24             Why?  To be exculpated from a possible future responsibility that

25     might arise from that violation of that law.

Page 7000

 1        Q.   However, the order which violates the law does not give him the

 2     right not to execute the order.

 3        A.   You're right.  He has to do it.  He has to obey the order.

 4        Q.   We will have to go into private session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 6     Before we do that.  I have a question based on what you were just asking.

 7             Is it correct to interpret violation of the law here not only to

 8     encompass a violation that is not a crime but also a crime?

 9             I think the word "violation of the law" is broad enough to

10     include a misdemeanour and a crime.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  This is not implied.  The two

12     paragraphs that we are discussing, we have just discussed paragraph 4,

13     which speaks of a violation of the law.  However, in the following

14     paragraph as the so-called lexis specialis, in this respect, you have a

15     provision according to which there are cases in which an order might

16     constitute a crime or a criminal act.  In such cases, the person who was

17     issued the order must not carry out the order.  It is his duty to refuse

18     to carry out the order and it is also his duty to immediately report such

19     an order to a superior commanding officer.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  [Previous translation

21     continues] ... [Microphone not activated].

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move into private session,

23     please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

25             [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

Page 7001

1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we shall talk about some

 5     documents that Mr. Harmon showed you yesterday, and most of them were

 6     discussed in private session.  We will stick to that.

 7             Can the Court please produce P2413, under seal.  P2413.

 8        Q.   You saw this document yesterday for the first time,

 9     Mr. Starcevic.  I would like to show it to you again in order to show you

10     yet another document, and what I can see in the document is an order

11     where a distinction is made between two categories of persons or

12     individuals:  Those who are not under any suspicion that they committed a

13     disciplinary breach, and those for whom there is reasonable doubt to

14     suspect -- or reasonable suspicion that they committed a breach of

15     discipline.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The basis for this order is Article 6, paragraph 1, of the Law on

18     the Army of Yugoslavia, at least that is what it says here.

19        A.   Yes, this is a list mentioned as the basis.

20        Q.   I would like to us stay in private session, although this is a

21     public document, but I would like us to stay in private session just for

22     a moment to remind the Trial Chamber of the contents of Article 6.  I

23     would like to call document number P197, page 2 in B/C/S, please, as well

24     as in English, I believe.

25             We will look at the basis for issuing the previously shown order.

Page 7002

 1             It says:

 2             "In order to implement documents issued by the president of the

 3     Republic and the duties of a commanding in the army" -- yes I'm reading

 4     too fast.

 5             Article says as follows:

 6             "In order to implement documents issued by the president of the

 7     Republic and the duties of commanding the army, as well as the duties

 8     stipulated by this Law, the chief of General Staff shall issue rules,

 9     orders, commands, instructions, and other documents."

10             This would be the basis of the documents that I showed you

11     previously.

12             And now let us look at the document P708, under seal.

13             Kindly read the document slowly, Mr. Starcevic.  I don't think

14     you've had an opportunity to see it or read it before.  It is a two-page

15     long document.  Read it slowly.  Alert us at the moment when you have

16     reached the end of the first page.  We'll move on to the next then.  Yes.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please speak into the microphone.

18     Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Counsel, when you speak next time, please --

20     you're asked to speak into the microphone.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will do that, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Mr. Starcevic, first of all, the date.  30 August 1995 is the

23     date on this document.  And these are the minutes of the 43rd Session of

24     the Supreme Defence Council which was held in August 1995.  The document

25     was signed by President Zoran Lilic.  The first thing that is stated on

Page 7003

 1     page 1 of this document is this:  Mr. Lilic says the RSK defence ceased

 2     to exist, so the Supreme Defence Council concludes that there is no

 3     longer grounds to keep on assisting the armed forces of the RSK.

 4             Let's put things in temporal context.  This is after Operation

 5     Storm and after the exodus of the Serbian population at the beginning of

 6     August 1995; would that be correct?

 7        A.   Obviously, yes.

 8        Q.   The Supreme Defence Council, pursuant, and on the basis of

 9     certain facts reaches a conclusion to the effect that the Serbian Army of

10     Krajina had ceased to exist; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.  This would be exactly that.

12        Q.   The Supreme Defence Council --

13             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:  I don't see the first page.  And there's testimony

16     about the first page of this document, and the English version on the

17     screen is the second page.  I merely ask that the first page be displayed

18     while we're having questions about it.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

20             Could we have the first page, please.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I need page 2 in B/C/S, please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters are asking for something.  Can

23     you repeat the request, please, the interpreter?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreting Mr. Lukic's words.  Mr. Lukic is

25     asking for page 2.

Page 7004

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   What the Supreme Defence Council concludes in paragraphs 1, 2,

 4     and 3, is the fact that there is a difference between the two categories

 5     of the members of the 40th Personnel Centre, those who committed a

 6     disciplinary or a criminal act, and those who didn't, or, rather, there

 7     is no suspicion that they did; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And in paragraph 4, it says that those for whom there is no

10     suspicion can selectively be assigned to a -- the units of the RSK or to

11     the 30th Personnel Centre.

12             Do you agree that these conclusions of the Supreme Defence

13     Council are the basis based on which Mr. Perisic issued his order in view

14     of the -- these conclusions and in view of the contents of that order.

15        A.   I agree.  This is just repetition of the conclusions that we see

16     here.

17        Q.   Very well.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we can go back to open

19     session, and we can try to achieve something in this courtroom with the

20     help of the other party to the proceedings.

21             Can we now please see 65 ter --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was waiting for the interpretation.  I must now

23     move us into open session as you asked.

24             May the Chamber please move into open session.

25                           [Open session]

Page 7005

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 3             Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 8815 is the document that I

 5     would like to call.

 6             MR. HARMON:  To this document, Your Honour, Mr. Lukic is calling

 7     up is the English translation of the previous document that he had -- for

 8     which we had not identified an English translation existing.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh.  This is not an English translation?

10             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So we do have it now.  And what is on the

12     right-hand side?  That's -- on right-hand side, we don't have the

13     document that we didn't have a translation for.  It is some other

14     document?

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, it's one and the same.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you are going back to it [Overlapping

17     speakers].

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm going back.  Just a small

19     correction before that, correction in the transcript on page 75 line 15,

20     the answer starts but it has been attached to the question.  The witness

21     said I agree.  This is the beginning of the witness's answer.  It is not

22     part of the question.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down a little to see

25     the date -- no, no, no.  This is how we're going do it.  This is it an

Page 7006

 1     order on establishing the responsibilities and powers of officers

 2     regarding service-related issues in the Yugoslav Army.  This is the order

 3     that you have already testified about.  In very general terms, you have

 4     referred to the order on responsibilities and this is the document that

 5     had in mind every time you did that.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go to page 3 in B/C/S to

 8     see who issued the order.  I suppose that the page will be the same in

 9     the English version as well.

10        Q.   The order was issued by the chief, Colonel-General Momcilo

11     Perisic, on the 25th April, 1994, and it was published in the official

12     military gazette on the 5th of May, 1994, as you can see in the upper

13     left corner.

14             Mr. Starcevic, I don't know how to proceed.  The document has

15     three pages.  Do you want to look at everything or maybe I could proceed

16     in the following way:  I could ask you this and do things in this way.

17             In this document, this order has eight bullet points or articles

18     in which it specifies certain categories of units and institutions and

19     then in subparagraphs it gives them certain responsibilities and powers.

20             Let's go back.  It was very difficult for me to follow the

21     numbers, but let's go back to page number 1.  And let me look at the

22     English translation, if I may, at the same time.  Yes.

23             Under number 1 -- no, no, no.

24        A.   I apologise, what I'm looking at is the book of rules on

25     education.

Page 7007

 1        Q.   Yes.  Under number 1?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, could the usher please make sure that

 3     Mr. Starcevic is looking at the correct document.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's correct now.  We have it on

 5     the screen.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Let's read about the first category.  It says:

 8             "The commander of an independent battalion or division and the

 9     commanding officer of an independent military unit or military institute

10     with establishment rank of major, lieutenant-colonel, or higher, is

11     authorised to ..."

12             And then he is authorised according to certain bullet points, the

13     last being number 3.  These are the responsibilities arising from

14     service.  I'm not going to read everything, but what they deal with is

15     appointment, dismissal, and so on and so forth?

16        A.   Yes, this is the general approach from a lower unit to a higher

17     unit, from a lower rank to a higher rank.

18        Q.   The following category is under number 2.  Again, bullet points

19     under number 2, pertaining to that rank, unit, or institution.

20             And then the following page, please.

21             Number 3, I don't want to keep on reading, you can see that the

22     order that is followed is from the lowest ranking to the highest

23     ranking -- or, rather, I would kindly ask for page -- for the following

24     page in B/C/S to be placed on e-court.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the lower part of

Page 7008

 1     that page, where we see number 7, the right-hand side column.

 2             Under number 7, we arrive at the chief of General Staff,

 3     personnel administration is hereby authorised to do whatever he is given

 4     to do as specified in the following bullet points; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see the following page in

 7     both English and B/C/S versions.

 8             Can we scroll up the page just a little, please.  And after

 9     number 17, there's bullet-point 8, which I would like to zoom in on,

10     after number 17, that's the 17th responsibility pertaining to the

11     previous category.  And then we come to number 8, the highest category

12     and its responsibilities and powers.  And it says here:

13             "This is the assistant chiefs of General Staff, chief (at the

14     same time chief inspector) of the chief army inspectorate, chief of the

15     General Staff Security Administration, and chief of the General Staff

16     information and psychological propaganda administration are authorised to

17     executed duties ..." and then it says from item 5, paragraph 1.

18             Can you please look at that.  And what I would like to repeat is

19     what I asked you previously, has to do with the following article,

20     Article 10.  The following articles apply to all the collective articles

21     to put it that way, Article 10.  Pursuant to Article 10, all the

22     authorisations from items 1 through 8 include procedures which precedes

23     the processing or issuing of the relevant enactments; is that correct.

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   This order clearly and precisely determines the responsibilities

Page 7009

 1     of all personnel in the Yugoslav Army.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3                           [Defence counsel confer]

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I said the status in the service.  In

 5     my last question, let us be more precise.  My apologies to the

 6     interpreters.

 7        Q.   This order clearly and precisely determines responsibilities for

 8     resolving the status of all personnel in the Yugoslav Army; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And it provides in a precise terms who makes decisions about

12     certain categories with respect to their position and rank.

13        A.   That's correct.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to offer this document

15     to be admitted into evidence.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

17     given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D124.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have to go back again to the

21     prior -- to a private session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

23             [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

Page 7010

1             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have document P2424

 3     under seal, marked for identification.

 4        Q.   We've seen this personnel chart of one of the officers.  I'm

 5     putting this on the screen just to lead us to the next document.  It says

 6     here that on the 9th of May, 1995, the professional service was

 7     terminated, due to five days of leave of absence from work; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see document P2425, MFI,

11     on the screen.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please speak into his microphone.

13     Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You saw this document yesterday as well, where it says that this

16     is a document issued by the Drina Corps command.  You will remember when

17     we scrolled the document down that this document was issued by the

18     Army of Republika Srpska; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   And it was signed by Radislav Krstic.  It bears the stamp of the

21     Army of Republika Srpska, and in the -- in the bottom left corner you

22     have an incoming stamp which means this is the stamp of the recipient; is

23     that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And that is the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Page 7011

 1             Now in the statement of reason, the second sentence reads that it

 2     has been established that the above-named will not return to the unit

 3     which he wilfully abandoned; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

 5        Q.   Without interpreting the meaning of this, can we please scroll

 6     down the document, and I would ask you for another comment.

 7             There are some notes made by hand, and I noticed that the English

 8     translation does correspond to what is written in the Serbian language,

 9     so I'm going to read it out to you and then ask for your opinion.

10             It says, handwritten, wait for the reply from the GS Main Staff

11     of the 30th Personnel Centre; is that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And then beneath, it says submitted the request for PPVS.

14             I'm asking you what does this PPVS stand for; do you know?

15        A.   This is a very unusual acronym.  I can only try to -- to decipher

16     it.  I believe that it might mean early termination of military service.

17        Q.   In any case, it says that an individual has submitted a request

18     for PPVS, and in that term, it seems that it was not translated properly

19     into English, because I don't think that it tallies with what this

20     acronym might mean.  Therefore, this what is provided by the translation

21     unit doesn't stand to reason.  Anyway I'm going to ask the witness again.

22             In the English translation, it says that PPVS means recognition

23     of the entitlement for double length of service.

24        A.   I can hardly understand this to mean that.  I don't even

25     understand what it means in English.

Page 7012

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 2             MR. HARMON:  I think the record should be clear -- I mean, that's

 3     not an assertion, there's a question mark before that.  The translation

 4     that is offered on this exhibit has a question mark.  There is no

 5     certainty that that's what the interpreter intended or the translator

 6     intended.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What then do we do with this exhibit?  I see it's

 8     an exhibit.  It is not marked for identification.  Shall we mark it for

 9     identification?

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What I suggested earlier about some

12     documents, simply what appears in the documents as acronyms shouldn't be

13     expanded and should -- this expansion should be disregarded because the

14     original documents contain only acronyms.  I am in favour of sending this

15     back to the translation unit, but I don't think we should burden them

16     with a request that was provided only as a comment from the translation

17     unit.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm told it is marked for identification already

20     any way.  But I do think in response to what you are saying, sir, if we

21     are now going to put acronyms only in the English version without

22     telling -- expanding them, then we are lost.

23             So we want a full -- a full translation.

24             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

25             MR. HARMON:  I think the proper way to deal with this particular

Page 7013

 1     expansion would be to disregard the translator's question mark,

 2     recognition of entitlement for double length of service, and leave it at

 3     that.  Because neither Mr. Starcevic knows what that expansion means, nor

 4     did the language assistants who translated that, so obviously the proper

 5     way to do this is just disregard this particular expansion for the

 6     purposes of this exhibit.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that is the best solution.

 9             At any rate, the acronym PPVS could mean that the individual has

10     submitted a request for --

11             MR. HARMON:  I object to that.  That's not --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can take the oath and take over.  [Overlapping

13     speakers] ... [Microphone not activated] You are now testifying on that

14     issue that we have not been able to resolve.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mm-hmm.  All right.

16        Q.   If we suppose, Mr. Starcevic, that a certain individual decides

17     to leave the Army of Republika Srpska and does not join the

18     Yugoslav Army, is this individual eligible for receiving the salary

19     and/or other benefits and fringe benefits due to him or should all the

20     payments be suspended?

21        A.   If, on the basis of all the enactments of the Yugoslav Army, he

22     is appointed to a certain position including in the Army of Republika

23     Srpska - I'm not going into the issue of whether that was legal or

24     illegal - then that creates a basis for his receiving all the payments

25     and fringe benefits.  If he is not carrying out his duties, then he

Page 7014

 1     cannot receive the -- the pay and the fringe benefits.  However, a

 2     declaratory act or a document has to be issued in which the fact shall be

 3     stated that he has abandoned his duty and that he was not discharging the

 4     duties for which he had been assigned to a certain post.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look now at document P2420, MFI.  Mr. Harmon

 6     asked you some questions about this document too.

 7             You saw this document yesterday, and you will remember that we

 8     decided that this was a judgement of the Military Disciplinary Court of

 9     the Army of the Republika Srpska; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   We spoke about the second co-accused.  We see his personal

12     details here, Nedeljko Vujic, a major from VP 7272, Banja Luka, then

13     there are some other personal details.  And then it says currently

14     residing at an unknown address, a Serb, joined the VRS on the 4th of

15     March, 1993.  This judgement was rendered on 20th September, 1995; is

16     that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hear that he joined on the 4th of March, 1993.

19     Okay, now we've got the relevant date.  Thank you so much.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   So in the judgement rendered on the 20th of September, 1995, the

22     court established that the major's address is unknown?

23             Let us now look at document 2421, under seal, another document

24     that you saw yesterday.

25             If you remember, you saw a document admitted by

Page 7015

 1     Ljubisa Velickovic yesterday, and you said that this is a document by the

 2     command of the anti-aircraft defence of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And the date is 29 January, 1996.  Under number 1, you see a

 5     reference to Nedeljko Vujic, who now holds the rank of lieutenant-colonel

 6     in the Army of Yugoslavia; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What I find interesting - can the document be scrolled up - is

 9     what Mr. Velickovic says in this document that he writes to the command

10     of the air force and anti-aircraft defence.

11             Says here that officer under number 1, i.e., Nedeljko Vujic, and

12     under number 4, are serving in the Army of Yugoslavia and have been

13     serving there for other two years and are achieving very good and

14     excellent results.  So a possible confirmation of this measure would be a

15     pure loss for the RV and PVO of the VJ.

16             From this document it arises, and I am sure you will agree with

17     me, that this person, Nedeljko Vujic, who according to the previous

18     judgement was residing in an unknown place in May, was serving in the VJ

19     all that time, and he was even promoted.  Isn't that so?

20        A.   Yes, that's exactly how it looks, according to this.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just let's clear something up.  Did I not hear

22     that the previous document judgement was rendered on the 20th of

23     September, 1995.  And this one is dated ...

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] January 1996.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  29 January 1996.  And in January 1996, they're

Page 7016

 1     saying he has been in the VJ for two years, which goes beyond 20th --

 2     yeah, okay.

 3             [Microphone not activated] you're right.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And now let's look at another document that Mr. Harmon showed you

 6     yesterday.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P2422, under seal.

 8        Q.   And let's bring this Vujic story to an end.  On the 12th of

 9     October, 2005, his professional military service was discontinued.  He

10     held the rank of colonel; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And the reason for termination was his 30 years of seniority or

13     active military service?

14        A.   Yes, 30 years of active military service and his service was

15     discontinued.

16        Q.   Does this mean or would you agree with me that the Army of

17     Yugoslavia, when this person fled from the Army of Republika Srpska, and

18     pursuant to the previous document, joined the Army of Yugoslavia, and was

19     there all that time, did not want to act on the decision of the Army of

20     Republika Srpska, because he remained in the VJ until he was pensioned

21     off and he was even promoted.  He went up through the ranks; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do you know that the reason for him leaving

25     was because he did not want to serve in the Army of Republika Srpska?

Page 7017

 1             I don't know the reason why he left.

 2             How do you know the reason he left?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, and I have never

 4     mentioned any reasons.  I'm just mentioning facts.

 5             Mr. Lukic asked me whether this mean that the Army of Yugoslavia

 6     did not want to accept the decision of the Army of Republika Srpska with

 7     regard to this person, Vujic.  And my answer to that was yes, the Army of

 8     Yugoslavia did not accept that particular decision.  Why he had left, why

 9     the army did not accept the decision, I never spoke about that because I

10     don't know anything about that.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I misheard -- sorry, I misheard your

12     question.  Sorry.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Yes.  All I want is to clarify this.  Pursuant to the decision of

15     the Military Disciplinary Court, which is document P2420, pursuant to

16     that decision issued by the Army of Republika Srpska, it was established

17     that he was a deserter from the Army of Republika Srpska; and that this

18     happened on the 20th of May, 1993, at least according to the judgement.

19             Could we call it a day, Your Honours, at this moment, but let's,

20     before that, go into open session.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

22             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. --

24             MR. HARMON:  I just want to read the transcript and clarify one

25     thing.

Page 7018

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 2             MR. HARMON:  Yes.

 3             Mr. Lukic says that it was established that he was a deserter

 4     from the army, and this happened on the 20th of May, 1993.  First of all,

 5     I'm not sure what Mr. Lukic is referring to when he says it was

 6     established he was a desert on 20 May 1993.  I don't think that

 7     accurately states the facts.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I read this, and we have to go

10     back into private session for me to answer this.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are in private session.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The decision of the Military

13     Disciplinary Court, number P2420, MFI, in the statement of reasons, it

14     says on page 1, on the 20th of May, 1993, Nedeljko Vujic, and before that

15     he said that he wilfully, without the knowledge and approval by the

16     superior organs, left his post and duty.  This is what the court

17     established and put on paper on the first page of its judgement.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't have this on the [Overlapping speakers].

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It says in the decision they are

20     guilty.  The numbers is 2420.  If we can bring the document back on the

21     screen, you will see it.

22             MR. HARMON:  I want to correct, Your Honour.  What the English

23     translation that I have says that Mr. Vujic absconded from his unit on

24     29th of May, 1993.  The record reflects the 20th in the transcript, the

25     20th of May, 1993.  I was merely trying to correct what -- an error --

Page 7019

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The date.

 2             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You agree the 29th, not the 20th because we don't

 4     have the document on the screen.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the original, I read 20 May, 1993.

 6     Can you see it in the B/C/S version.  It may be a mistake in the English

 7     translation.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which paragraph in the B/C/S?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] After the three paragraph under

10     different numbers, where particulars are provided for the individual, it

11     says they are guilty.  And then in the middle, if you are following, it

12     says Nedeljko Vujic on 20th of May, 1993.  Your Honours, this is in B/C/S

13     line 6 --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you able to just tell us where to look at on

15     the screen, sir?  Because --

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the middle of the screen after the

17     words "are guilty."

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But ... [Microphone not activated]

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And in B/C/S, it is "Krivisu,"

20     underneath that, line 5, you will see it says, Vujic, Nedeljko, and what

21     follows is the date, 20th of May, in the B/C/S version.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And in English, it says 29th of May.

23             MR. HARMON:  We will get that remedied, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say that?

25             MR. HARMON:  We'll resubmit this and -- we can either do it one

Page 7020

 1     of two ways, Your Honour.  We can either resubmit this English

 2     translation and get it corrected, or we could correct it now orally on

 3     the record and just note that this date is wrong and be satisfied.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And which date shall we go by?

 5             MR. HARMON:  I would insert -- I think both parties agree we

 6     would insert the corrected date from the original, which would be 20 May,

 7     1993, instead of 29 May, 1993.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine it is so corrected.

 9             Thank you so much.

10             MR. HARMON:  Okay.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             We -- Mr. Starcevic, the usual warning.  You don't discuss while

16     you are still in the witness stand.  The matter stands adjourn to

17     tomorrow, tomorrow the 11th of June, at quarter past 2.00, Courtroom I.

18             Court adjourned.

19                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of June,

21                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.