Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7190

 1                           Tuesday, 16 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.31 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.  And out there in New York.  I guess it's good morning to you.

 7             Madam Registrar will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     number IT-04-81-T, The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             May we have the appearances for today, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Good afternoon.  It's Carmela Javier, Lorna Bolton,

14     and Mark Harmon for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             And for the Defence.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon, Daniela Tasic, Chad Mair,

18     Milos Androvic, Kay Marshall, Novak Lukic, and I'm Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith,

19     on behalf of Mr. Perisic.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             Good morning once again, Mr. Sacirbey.  May I just remind you

22     that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of

23     your testimony to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing else but the

24     truth.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7191

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

 2             Madam Bolton.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  I understand that

 4     Mr. Guirguis had asked if he could be excused for day; and in his place

 5     if Ms. Corominas, the other counsel who attended yesterday, could sit in

 6     on today's session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess we had agreed on that yesterday, yeah.  I

 8     think we can get a replacement.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guirguis.

11             MR. GUIRGUIS:  I will be replaced by Ms. Corominas for the

12     remainder of the examination and I will return for the cross-examination,

13     with the court's permission.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             MR. GUIRGUIS:  Thank you.

16                           WITNESS:  MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]

17                           [Witness testified via videolink]

18                           Examination by Ms. Bolton: [Continued]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If we could please get the name of new counsel on

20     record.

21             MS. COROMINAS:  Your Honour, this is Annemarie Corominas, counsel

22     for Mr. Sacirbey.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             Madam Bolton.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

Page 7192

 1        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   If we could start off where we left off yesterday, which was at

 4     Resolution 771, which you will find in tab 9 of the 1992 binder, and it

 5     should be --

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   And for the Court, this is 65 ter --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry.  65 ter.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  65 ter 6571.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MS. BOLTON:

12        Q.   This is a resolution, sir, dated -- from the Security Council

13     dated August 13th, 1992.

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   And are you familiar with this resolution, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I am.

17        Q.   The third paragraph on the first page reads as follows:

18             "Expressing grave alarm at continuing reports of widespread

19     violations of international humanitarian law occurring within the

20     territory of the former Yugoslavia and especially in

21     Bosnia and Herzegovina, including reports of mass forcible expulsion and

22     deportation of civilians; imprisonment, and abuse of civilians in

23     detention centre; deliberate attacks on non-combatants, hospitals, and

24     ambulances; impeding the delivery of food and medical supplies to the

25     civilian population; and wanton devastation and destruction of property."

Page 7193

 1             We have already touched a bit on events from 1992 yesterday, but

 2     just for clarification the reference to the reports of mass forcible

 3     expulsion and deportation of civilians, imprisonment and abuse of

 4     civilians in detention centres, what events are those -- were those being

 5     referenced to in the Security Council?

 6        A.   There was originally a report from the Secretary-General that

 7     actually referred to such events as ethnic purification.  By this point

 8     in time we started, in fact, identifying them under the term

 9     "ethnic cleansing" and this refers, of course, to the expulsion of people

10     from their homes or sometimes the murder of people, that is, large groups

11     of people.

12             It also refers to what we have sometimes called

13     "elite-icide" [phoen] which is actually that -- that is the leaders of

14     societies of towns, of urban centres were usually murdered in some ways

15     in very public fashion while others were in fact forced from their homes

16     with what we believe was the notion to scare them to such a degree that

17     those people would never want to return to their homes.

18             In addition to that, cultural centres religious centres, were in

19     fact destroyed so that those people could not return to their homes.

20        Q.   Okay.  What you've just been describing --

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I may.  If the Chamber could direct the

24     witness to use the personal pronoun of "I" as opposed to the plural

25     pronoun of "we," I think it might be of some assistance to the record,

Page 7194

 1     because we're talking about a variety of different subjects.  And

 2     yesterday he oftentimes used the word "we" as opposed to "I" and --

 3     unless he can -- If we could have some kind of clarity as to when he's

 4     making these presentations whether he's speaking a collective position, a

 5     position that he is taking on behalf of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or whether is

 6     he talking about something which is specific unto himself.

 7             I think it would be of some assistance to the record as it

 8     stands, because of the fact that we are now also dealing with

 9     Security Council resolutions and reports.  So when one says, We believe,

10     the "we" is unclear.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  It's fine, I will clarify with the witness.

13        Q.   First of all, sir, when you were talking or using the word "we"

14     in answer to the question I just asked, on whose behalf were you

15     speaking?

16        A.   In this case I was speaking on behalf of the mission of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina to the United Nations, of which I was the permanent

18     representative.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  I appreciate that.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

21        Q.   My original question had been about -- what I wanted to

22     understand is what historical events were being referenced when we were

23     talking about the reports of mass forcible expulsion, et cetera.

24        A.   These events related to what we had already received reports on.

25     Generally initially the reports were mostly from the Drina river valley.

Page 7195

 1     By this time we also had reports from what is called the Krajina region

 2     of Bosnia which in particular includes the town of Prijedor which we

 3     believe suffered at that time almost 30.000 dead and was entirely

 4     ethnically cleansed of its non-Serb population.

 5             It also refers to the suburbs of Sarajevo which fell under the

 6     control of the Serbian forces, including -- particularly the suburb of

 7     Grbavica.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey, there was a request that you replace

 9     the preposition "we" with -- the pronoun "we," rather, with either the

10     BiH mission, or "I," if you are talking in the singular, if you're

11     talking about yourself; and if you're talking about the mission, say the

12     BiH embassy or whatever it's was called.  I don't know what it was

13     called.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour, I will reference that in

15     the future to the BiH mission.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

18             MS. BOLTON:

19        Q.   The -- if I could refer you to the same page of this resolution

20     sir, to numbered paragraph number 2?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   We see there the use of the term "ethnic cleansing?"

23        A.   That is correct.

24        Q.   Had that term been used in any UN resolution prior to this date?

25        A.   I'm actually not aware of it being used.  As I said, there was

Page 7196

 1     Secretary-General's report before that that referred to ethnic

 2     purification.  I believe that this is the first official use of that term

 3     in a UN Security Council resolution.

 4        Q.   And was there a discussion or agreement in the Security Council

 5     as to what kinds of activities that word would encompass or what that --

 6     the definition of that term was?

 7        A.   This term was interpreted by some as equating to "genocide."  By

 8     others it was equated to as "acts of genocide."

 9        Q.   I'm sorry, sir --

10        A.   And --

11        Q.   -- I'm going to interrupt.  I'm not interested in how it was

12     interpreted.  My question was:  Was there discussion or agreement?

13        A.   Yes, there was discussion on that term.

14        Q.   Okay.  Was there agreement on what it meant?

15        A.   Not necessarily to the precise -- to the precise degree.

16        Q.   Okay.  In the discussion that took place, what kinds of

17     activities were contemplated or discussed as falling within that rubric?

18        A.   Certainly the expulsion of the population.  Certainly the murder

19     of individuals, and groups of individuals.  "Elite-icide."  The

20     destruction of cultural and religious properties.  The type of activities

21     that somehow would compel that population, would instill terror into them

22     not to want to return to their homes.  That was generally agreed to.

23             The -- probably the major difference was one of whether this was

24     absolutely systematic and would be equated to genocide, or whether it was

25     something that was an act of genocide.  That was the general distinction

Page 7197

 1     maybe that existed in some countries' views.

 2        Q.   Okay.  There is an reference in this document to deliberate

 3     attacks on non-combatants, hospitals, an ambulances.  And that's in the

 4     paragraph that I've already read to you.  I'm wondering if those

 5     references relate to any historic events in particular.

 6        A.   Yes.  They occurred throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina from places

 7     like Mostar, to Sarajevo, to other areas.  They were most well documented

 8     by media and other sources though in Sarajevo, and there was significant

 9     evidence of civilians -- clearly civilians being targeted; those

10     civilians then being wounded or murdered; and those who would come to

11     assist them, including medical personnel being targeted.  There was also

12     attacks on hospitals, including the hospitals in Sarajevo.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'd like to turn to a different topic now.

14             Could you tell me -- the topic I'm going to be discussing with

15     you, sir, are the reports of the Special Rapporteur of the United

16     Nations -- the UNHCR.  Human Rights Commission?  HRC?  Do you ...

17        A.   There's a United Nations Human -- well there's a -- there's a

18     UN -- are you looking for my answer, Madam Bolton?

19        Q.   I am.  Sorry, yes.

20        A.   Yes.  There's, of course, the United Nations Human Rights

21     Commission, and there's also the United Nations Refugee Agency.  I

22     believe you're talking about United Nations Human Rights Commission.

23        Q.   Sorry, sir.  I neglected to ask that that last document we were

24     discussing be marked as an exhibit, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

Page 7198

 1     please be given an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2438.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry for the interruption, Mr. Sacirbey.

 5        Q.   What is the mandate of the United Nations

 6     Human Rights Commission?

 7        A.   It can, of course, be defined by the moment, but it is generally

 8     to address human rights issues, those that are consistent with standards

 9     of the international community, that is, the United Nations.  It may, in

10     fact, in instances then appoint Special Rapporteurs to view a particular

11     situation.

12        Q.   And what relationship does it have, if any, to the United Nations

13     General Assembly or the Security Council?

14        A.   Such reports then may be issued for review by the

15     General Assembly and/or Security Council, and they recommend that further

16     measures be taken by either one of those bodies.  Probably more likely

17     than not the UN Security Council.

18        Q.   Are you familiar with a series of reports that were authored by a

19     man named Tadeusz Mazowiecki during the war?

20        A.   Yes, I am.

21        Q.   And what was his post?

22        A.   He was, in fact, appointed as a Special Rapporteur to study the

23     violations or - let me be more accuracy on that - the situation of grave

24     violations of international humanitarian law in the former Yugoslavia,

25     particularly Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 7199

 1        Q.   Just for clarification, who would have appointed him as

 2     Special Rapporteur?

 3        A.   United Nations Human Rights Commission.  He may have been

 4     nominated by -- or he may have in fact selected as a potential

 5     Special Rapporteur by some other third party, but in fact it would be --

 6     he would be accountable to the United Nations Human Rights Commission.

 7        Q.   And where did he have his business offices, or office?

 8        A.   Well, the -- excuse me.  The United Nations Human Rights

 9     Commission is actually headquartered out of Geneva.

10        Q.   And did you know him prior to his appointment?

11        A.   No, I did not.  I knew of him.

12        Q.   What was his background?

13        A.   He was a former official in the post-communist government of

14     Poland.

15        Q.   Did you ever have a friendship or personal relationship with him?

16        A.   No, I had never met him before.

17        Q.   And with respect to his reports, I would you to turn to tab 10 of

18     the binder in front of you.  And what I'd like you to do is -- we're

19     going to go through each tab very quickly and just have you look at the

20     document and confirm for me whether it is, in fact, a report that he

21     authored, okay?

22             So the first tab --

23        A.   Absolutely.

24        Q.    -- is tab 10A.  And you should have before you 65 ter 5701

25     report dated 28th of August, 1992.

Page 7200

 1             Do you see that document, sir?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   I should indicate, sir, that sometimes we've reproduced the

 4     entire document, and sometimes we have reproduced only a portion of it.

 5             Do you recognise whether this is a true copy of the report that

 6     was authored by the Special Rapporteur?

 7        A.   Yes I do.  And it does certainly appear to be an authentic copy.

 8        Q.   Are these reports, sir, that -- sorry.  Are these reports, sir,

 9     that you would have read in your capacity as the ambassador?

10        A.   That is correct, and we may have recommended that, of course,

11     they be adopted as documents by the other United Nations agencies,

12     institutions.

13             MS. BOLTON:  If that document could be admitted as an exhibit,

14     please, Your Honour.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Your Honour, I believe this may well be a

16     document that was covered in your decision on application of Rule 73 bis

17     an amendment of indictment dated the 15th of May, 2007, specifically

18     footnote number 16.  Without further guidance from the Prosecution as to

19     the ostensible purpose of the use of this document, I would have to

20     object at this time based upon the ruling found in -- in that decision.

21     But if I have further understanding of what the Prosecution's purpose is

22     in seeking to admit this particular report, I may not be objecting.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know what those decisions mean.  Maybe you

24     do.  Can you respond?

25             MS. BOLTON:  I don't have a copy of the decision or the footnote

Page 7201

 1     that my friend's referring to at -- perhaps he could enlighten us as to

 2     what it says.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  This deals with the issue of leading a particular

 5     kind of evidence that we've discussed before, and I'm hesitant to mention

 6     that particular kind of evidence in front of the witness.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Given the particular situation we find ourselves

 8     in, do you mind walking across to find out what it is all about?

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't mind sharing with the Prosecution at all.

10             MS. BOLTON:  We may need a minute or two, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, okay.

12                           [Prosecution and Defence counsel confer]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm advised that if there is any need for further

14     discussion of the document without the witness hearing, the Registrar in

15     New York can press the mute button and we can talk.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, there's not.  We have resolved.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any response, Madam Bolton?

18             MS. BOLTON:  I'll just put on record that the Prosecution does

19     not intend to rely on the document for the prohibited purpose that is set

20     out in the document.  We intend to rely on it for other purposes.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's understood.  With regard to the specific

22     footnote and concerns that were made by the -- by this Chamber with

23     regard to that particular issue.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Then you may proceed then.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  If it could be given an exhibit number,

Page 7202

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  For the limited

 3     purposes that it is being tendered for.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I raise another concern about all of these

 5     documents.  Which is that to the extent that these documents contain

 6     within them unsourced hearsay information.  If they're being offered to

 7     prove the truth of the matter asserted, we interpose an objection at this

 8     time.  With regard to all of the documents that were produced by this

 9     particular gentleman.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  Naturally, the Chamber

11     is not in possession of that decision or doesn't even have an idea of

12     what kind of documents these are.  We will rely on you to remind us each

13     time such kind of document comes up.

14             The document is admitted into evidence, for that limited purpose.

15     May it please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2439.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Sir, maybe I will just ask you to take a few moments so we don't

20     go through each tab individually.  If you could take a few moments and

21     just look at the documents in each of the tab.  And if you can, the

22     question I will be asking you after you have done that is if your

23     satisfied that these are true copies of the reports that Mr. -- that were

24     released by the Special Rapporteur during the conflict.

25        A.   I would be happy to do that.

Page 7203

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just interject, Madam Bolton.  You want

 2     to share with the Chamber the purpose for which they are now being

 3     tendered.  If they're not tendered for the truthfulness of their

 4     contents.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  They're being tendered as a notice of the

 6     allegations that were being made against the Bosnian Serb forces at the

 7     time, which would then --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Whether or not those allegations are true.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  That's a separate issue as to whether they're true.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.

11             You may then proceed, Madam Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I'm just waiting for the witness to finish his

13     global review of the tabs.  It will probably just take him another minute

14     or to two, Your Honour.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Your Honours, it's a relatively large binder, so

16     it's going to take a second.

17             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, yeah, I'm trying to make sure I'm

18     complete because I'm looking at the areas the reports cover because I was

19     aware of those, and they have covered a large area.  I was also just very

20     briefly making sure that I took a look at the source for the report which

21     was also relevant, and I did see that as well.  So at least from the

22     first few documents, I'm quite comfortable that these are authentic.  I

23     will now go through the rest of them, and, just to be absolutely

24     complete, I will let you know once I have had an opportunity to read them

25     all.

Page 7204

 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Sacirbey.

 3             THE WITNESS:  This is the one that is very extensive here.

 4             The last report that I believe I'm at is one 21 February 1994.

 5     It is the sixth periodic report.  The documents seem to go into something

 6     else at that point in time.

 7             Am I accurate?

 8             MS. BOLTON:  There may be a tab that contains two reports, and

 9     I'll need your assistance with that.  There may also be a second report

10     in that tab, is there?

11             THE WITNESS:  In tab -- which letter?  I'm in tab E right now.

12             MS. BOLTON:  In tab E you should have 65 ter 5699, report from

13     5th May 1993.

14             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  I have -- oh from 1993, that would have been

15     a previous tab then.  I'm sorry, I'm looking at the wrong -- the document

16     at the top is labelled E, but in fact it is tab G, Madam Bolton.

17             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Just for the purposes of the

18     record, Your Honours, that is 65 ter 02058.

19             MS. BOLTON:  For tab --

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  So we don't go through this kind of confusion

21     because we unfortunately are like the Chamber, we don't have the tabbed

22     documents the same way that the Prosecution and the witness does.  If we

23     go through the exercise that the witness is going through right now,

24     which is reviewing the documents and confirming his position about them,

25     then I think we should start at the beginning and go through each tab so

Page 7205

 1     we know specifically which 65 ter number it is, what tab is attributed to

 2     it, and then they can move for its admission in whatever fashion they

 3     wish to do.

 4             I think it might be a little simpler than doing something halfway

 5     through.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  All right.  I do intend to clarify what's in each

 7     tab, and I can do it that way.  I was hoping to speed things up.

 8        Q.   But let's go through, sir, each tab just to confirm what's in it,

 9     okay?

10        A.   Okay.

11        Q.   So we have already dealt with tab A.  Could you go to stab B,

12     please, which is 10B and you should have 65 ter 5700.

13        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me, Ms. Bolton.

14        Q.   And that's got a date of 27th October 1992 on it?

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   And you have reviewed that report.  You have reviewed that tab?

17        A.   Yes, I have.

18        Q.   Okay.  And are you satisfied that that is a true copy of

19     Mr. Mazowiecki's original report?

20        A.   Yes, I am.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be tendered as the next exhibit, please,

22     Your Honour.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And with regard to the -- this exhibit and all

24     further exhibits, so I don't have to rise each time and take up more

25     time.  It's my understanding that the Prosecution's position remains the

Page 7206

 1     same as the reasons for which these particular reports are being

 2     tendered.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  If my friend means by "all future exhibits" the

 4     Special Rapporteurs reports, then, yes.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, I do.  I certainly wouldn't mean the

 6     thousands of exhibits that exist in the case.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And do you confirm?

 8             MS. BOLTON:  I do, yes, with respect to the Mazowiecki and

 9     Special Rapporteur report, yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Then 65 ter 5700 is admitted

11     into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2440.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             MS. BOLTON:

15        Q.   Could you look at tab C, please, sir, and you should have

16     65 ter 2168.  It should be a --

17        A.   I'm there.

18        Q.    -- report dated 17 November 1992 from the Special Rapporteur?

19        A.   Yes, it is, and I'm there.

20        Q.   And are you satisfied that it's a true copy of the original

21     report?

22        A.   Yes, I am.  This report speaks of the fear, ultimate goal of a

23     Greater Serbia.  I remember this one quite well.

24             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

25     Your Honour.

Page 7207

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2441, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 5             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 6             MS. BOLTON:

 7        Q.   Could you turn to tab D, please, sir.  You should have

 8     65 ter 2167 which is a report dated the 10th of February, 1993?

 9        A.   Yes, I'm there.

10        Q.   And is that the document in that tab?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   Okay.

13        A.   I just had a chance to look at it before, briefly.  That is -- I

14     believe this is also authentic.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Could it be introduced as the next exhibit, please,

16     Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

18     number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2442, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             MS. BOLTON:

22        Q.   Could you turn to tab E, please, sir.

23        A.   I am there.

24        Q.   You should have a report, 65 ter 5699, with a date of

25     5th May 1993 on it.

Page 7208

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   And, again, are you satisfied that that's a true copy of the

 3     original report issued by the Special Rapporteur?

 4        A.   Yes, I am.  This deals with the Drina river valley, particularly

 5     Srebrenica.  I'm familiar with this one as well.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be so marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2443, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, yes, Madam Bolton.

11             MS. BOLTON:

12        Q.   Turn to tab F, you may have more than one document in tab F; I'm

13     not sure.  If you could look at 65 ter 2059, report dated 26 August 1993,

14     the third periodic report.  Do you have that document?

15        A.   Yes, I do.  And I remember this one again because it speaks of

16     the use of basic utilities as a weapon of war.  That had become a

17     particular problem at that time.

18        Q.   And is that report only nine pages in length?

19        A.   One, two, three, four -- yes, it is.  It is -- yes, it is.

20        Q.   And is there another document in that same tab behind it?

21        A.   Yes -- no these are translations, excuse me.  No, there is not.

22     The next tab is tap G which is 21 February 1994.

23        Q.   Okay.  That's where your binder and my binder are going to

24     differ.

25             MS. BOLTON:  So let's just ask first that the document we've just

Page 7209

 1     been discussing be marked as exhibit, please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 2059 is admitted.  May it please be given

 3     an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2444, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

 6             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.

 8        Q.   So you say the next document that you have is a report dated what

 9     date?

10        A.   21st February 1994.

11        Q.   Okay.

12        A.   The Registrar, will be looking to see if anything has been

13     misplaced, but I don't think so, Madam Bolton.  At least not here.

14        Q.   Okay.  So exhibit -- or tab G you have a document, 65 ter 2058;

15     is that correct?

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   Okay.  And that document, in my copy, is pages 1 to 20 only of

18     that report.  Does that correspond with your copy?

19        A.   Yes.  Again, I remember this by one of the front titles which is

20     terrorisation of Muslims and Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serb-held

21     territory which was then becoming a big issue at that time.

22        Q.   Just for your information, sir, we aren't going to be discussing

23     acts of terror in these proceedings, okay?

24        A.   I was just reading the title of it.

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 7210

 1        A.   Yeah.

 2        Q.   Are you satisfied that that is an excerpt of a -- or a true copy

 3     of a portion of that report?

 4        A.   Yes, I am.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May it please be so marked.  It is admitted.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  The document will become Exhibit P2445,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             MS. BOLTON:

13        Q.   Looking at tab H Sir, you should have -- 10H, of course,

14     65 ter 2114.

15        A.   I think we -- wait a second.  Oh, yes, I do have it.  Yes,

16     thank you.

17        Q.   And that's dated the 4th of November, 1994?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   And it's a 60-page document?  If you would just flip to the back.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And again can you confirm whether that's a true copy of the

22     report issued by the Special Rapporteur?

23        A.   Yes.  This one -- again, a few familiar headings, including the

24     situation of detainees.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 7211

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May it please be given a number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2446, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             MS. BOLTON:

 7        Q.   The next tab, sir, tab IJ should be a report with a 65 ter number

 8     of 5009 dated 16 January 1995.  And that's a 31-page report, with

 9     annexes.

10        A.   Yes, I do have this.

11        Q.   And again can you confirm whether that's a true copy of the

12     report issued by Mr. Mazowiecki?

13        A.   Yes, I can.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MS. BOLTON:  That could be marked as the next exhibit, please,

16     Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

18     please be given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2447, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             MS. BOLTON:

22        Q.   Turning to tab K, sir, 10K.  You should have a report,

23     65 ter 2061, dated the 5th of July, 1995, and that is a report, 32 pages.

24        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this report.  I'd just like to point out

25     that, at this date, I had also assumed the post of the foreign minister

Page 7212

 1     of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   Did you continue to review Mr. Mazowiecki's reports after you

 3     assumed that post?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.  And I continued to hold a title of permanent

 5     representative.  At that time the mission was also directed at -- in my

 6     absence by my deputy, i.e., charge d'affaires.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Looking at the next tab, 10L, please.  You should have a

 8     report -- the 65 ter 5711.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you go to that one, what do you with 2061?

10             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be tendered, please, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is submitted.  May it please be given an

12     exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will become Exhibit P2448, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And what is the next 65 ter,

15     Madam Bolton?

16             MS. BOLTON:  5711, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MS. BOLTON:

19        Q.   That should be a document with the date of 22nd August 1995, sir.

20        A.   Yes.  I'm again very familiar with this report, as it was

21     something that was part of my responsibility as foreign minister, and I

22     should also add, as the agent for Bosnia-Herzegovina before the

23     International Court of Justice, so I had several reasons to review these

24     reports.

25        Q.   And just -- if I could ask you to turn to page 26 of this report.

Page 7213

 1     Sorry --

 2        A.   This is Annex 1.

 3        Q.   Yes.  What is that document in Annex 1?

 4        A.   It is A letter from Mr. Mazowiecki to the Chamber on the

 5     Commission of Human Rights.

 6        Q.   And what's the gist of the letter; do you recall it?

 7        A.   I believe that this is a point in time when Mr. Mazowiecki was

 8     critical of the fact that his reports had received inadequate action, and

 9     he was at the point of resigning.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MS. BOLTON:  Could that document be marked as an exhibit, please,

12     Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  --

14             THE WITNESS:  In particular I should add that there is an

15     emphasise here, of course, of what happened in Srebrenica and Zepa which

16     had occurred during that summer and was viewed as an unfortunate,

17     obviously lapse in -- in view of all the other previous reports that in

18     fact Srebrenica and Zepa had been allowed to happen by whatever reason.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

20     an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2449, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MS. BOLTON:

24        Q.   And the last tab you should have under 10 is tab 10M, and that's

25     a 65 ter 5010.  And you should have a report dated 7 November 1995.  And

Page 7214

 1     this report was authored by Elisabeth Rehn who was the new

 2     Special Rapporteur.  Do you have that report?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   And again is this a true copy of her report?

 5        A.   Please note at that time we were in Dayton involved in

 6     negotiations and this one might be just a little more ... -- yes, it is a

 7     true report.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be tendered as a document, please,

10     Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

12     number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  The document will become Exhibit P2450,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MS. BOLTON:

17        Q.   Could I ask you, please, sir, to turn back to tab 10A.

18        A.   Yes.  We have to --

19             MS. BOLTON:  And that is now exhibit P2439.

20        A.   Madam Bolton, I was having trouble hearing you in that moment.

21        Q.   Sorry that was for the court's assistance.  Just giving them the

22     exhibit number, sir.

23        A.   Okay, we're there.

24        Q.   If I could ask you to turn to paragraph 1 of the actual text of

25     the report.

Page 7215

 1        A.   Would this be under the title "Introduction."

 2        Q.   Yes, sir.

 3        A.   Yes, I'm there.

 4        Q.   Paragraph 1 purports to set out the task that he was given.  It

 5     indicates that his being appointed the Commission of Human Rights adopted

 6     resolution on the 14th August 1992 to appoint a Special Rapporteur and

 7     then I'll quote:

 8             "To investigate firsthand the human rights situation and the

 9     territory of the former Yugoslavia in particular within Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina; and to receive relevant and credible information on the

11     human rights situation there from governments, individuals,

12     intergovernmental and non-governmental organisations on a continuing

13     basis and to avail him or herself -- himself or herself of the assistance

14     of existing mechanisms of the commission on human rights."

15             My question for you, sir, is:  Did the government or the mission

16     of Bosnia-Herzegovina provide any information to the Special Rapporteur

17     in that regard?

18        A.   I believe we did.  But it was minimum.  Most of the information

19     that was provided to the rapporteur was one that was received on the

20     ground.  The Special Rapporteur frequently was actually in the territory

21     firsthand reviewing these facts.

22        Q.   Okay.  And apart from the minimal information you provided to the

23     Special Rapporteur, did you or anyone associated with your government --

24     were you involved in any way in the preparation of Mr. Mazowiecki's

25     reports?

Page 7216

 1        A.   I certainly was not, and -- nor am I aware that anyone from my

 2     mission.  Was and I have never heard of anyone from the government of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina involved in authoring the reports.  Undoubtedly there

 4     were individuals who were sources for information.

 5        Q.   Did you or anyone in your mission have any -- or in the

 6     government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the best of your knowledge have any

 7     influence over what reports of abuse he investigated?

 8        A.   No we did not.  At least I don't believe we did, unless

 9     Mr. Mazowiecki, on his own or his staff chose to review submissions that

10     we had made to the Secretary-General, or to the General Assembly, or to

11     the Security Council, or to the Internation Court of Justice and then

12     basically use those submissions as a beginning source to further evaluate

13     the situation.  That could have happened.  But I'm not particularly aware

14     of any pattern of conduct in that way.

15        Q.   And was anyone in your mission or your government, to the best of

16     your knowledge, involved in authoring or influencing any of the

17     conclusions or recommendations he made in his reports?

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Objection.  Compound.

19             MS. BOLTON:

20        Q.   Was anyone involved, to the best of your knowledge, in

21     influencing any of the conclusions that he reached in his reports?

22        A.   I'm certainly not aware of that.

23        Q.   And how about the recommendations that he made?

24        A.   I'm certainly not aware of that.

25        Q.   Could you comment on how -- or to whom -- Mr. -- First, how were

Page 7217

 1     Mr. Mazowiecki's reports released?

 2        A.   They were released as documents generally of ECOSOC and the Human

 3     Rights Commission; but then at various points in time, they may have been

 4     made also documents of the General Assembly and/or Security Council.

 5     They may have been also issued as part of the Secretary-General's

 6     reports.  At various times, countries may have also made a particular

 7     allusion to certain elements of these reports in providing further

 8     communication to the Security Council and to the -- and to the

 9     General Assembly.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, I missed the acronym that the

11     gentleman used and apparently so did the court reporter.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, I also missed it.  I heard --

13        A.   Economic and Social -- Economic and Social Council, Your Honour,

14     of the United Nations.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

16             MS. BOLTON:  Do you recall whether these reports were ones that

17     you had to -- your mission had to actively seek out, or were they

18     circulated to you as a matter of course?

19        A.   No, we would not have to seek them out.  They were circulated as

20     a matter of course.  Certainly if it's circulated by the Economic and

21     Social Council and the Human Rights Commission, it would be circulated to

22     the entire membership of the United Nations, including, in this case, the

23     FRY, which was in fact privy to such circulation.

24        Q.   Were any of these reports discussed in the United Nations

25     Security Council?

Page 7218

 1        A.   Extensively and certainly to the extent that we felt that they

 2     were relevant to the considerations of Security Council, we, on numerous

 3     occasions made emphasis to them, because obviously they were indicating a

 4     rather grave situation consistent with the Security Council's mandate to

 5     address both the threat to international peace and security but also to

 6     the threat -- to the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey by "we" once again you mean the

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina mission?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Yes I thought I was a

10     little more precise, but I will endeavour again, Your Honour.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour, I lost my train of thought for a

13     moment.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

15             MS. BOLTON:  Please don't do that, Your Honour.  Just having a

16     little brain freeze for a moment.  Sorry I have lost whatever thought I

17     had.  So I will move on.  Oh, I know.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You were --

19             MS. BOLTON:  I remember now.   Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Were any of his reports referenced in any of the resolutions

21     adopted by the United Nations Security Council?

22        A.   Yes, I do believe they were.  And certainly they were referenced

23     by consideration.  What I mean by that, if not referenced by an action

24     paragraph, they were referenced by the fact that they were a basis for

25     the Security Council's actions.

Page 7219

 1        Q.   Okay.  You've indicated that you have, at some point in time,

 2     read the documents that are in tabs 10A to M.  If you read nothing about

 3     the conflict other than the reports of the Special Rapporteur, would you

 4     have been aware of the fact that there were allegations being levelled

 5     against the Serb forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina of targeting civilians

 6     in Sarajevo with shell and sniper fire?

 7        A.   Undoubtedly.  I believe the reports are even more extensive than

 8     the media reports that were available at that time.

 9        Q.   Would have you known that accusations were being levelled that

10     the Serbian forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina were engaging in acts of

11     ethnic cleansing including rape, summary executions, and forcible

12     transfers?

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Objection, leading.  At this point, it's leading.

14             THE WITNESS:  Um --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection is that are you leading,

16     Madam Bolton.

17             MS. BOLTON:

18        Q.   Can you tell us what kinds of issues -- you've told us what the

19     mandate of the Special Rapporteur's reports were.  Can you tell us what

20     kinds of issues he discussed in terms of any allegations that were being

21     levelled against the Bosnian Serb forces in his reports?

22        A.   Ms. Bolton, I only fear that I may leave something out.  But I

23     believe it was very comprehensive review that addressed matters of not

24     only physical harm to the population; that is, murder, rape, forced

25     deportation.  But it was also one of denial of access to water and basic

Page 7220

 1     necessities of like, medicine.  It was one also that spoke of the

 2     destruction of cultural and religious sites.  And then the continued

 3     punishment, if you would, I'm trying to avoid using a certain word.  Let

 4     me use the word trying to scare the population off that remained in some

 5     of these areas controlled by the Serbian forces.

 6             So we have from one end of actual physical harm being inflicted

 7     to the point of death and murder; another one, to the point that people

 8     were in fact being detained in camps, concentration camps, detention

 9     camps, whichever term you prefer; to the point of where individuals being

10     denied access to necessities of life, food, water, utilities; and

11     besieged, not being allowed to obviously move freely.

12             And as I mentioned even in those who were by some chance left

13     under the territories that were at that time occupied that their life

14     continued to be made very difficult so that they would in fact abandon

15     their homes.

16        Q.   I just have a couple more questions, and then it's going to be

17     time for the break, sir.

18             MS. BOLTON:  If I could have a two-minute indulgence,

19     Your Honour.  Is that all right, or --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have two minutes without indulgence.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Sir, was there any discussions to the best of your recollection

23     in the reports authored by the Special Rapporteur as to the

24     Geneva Conventions?

25        A.   Yes there was.  Of course, all the acts that I had mentioned to

Page 7221

 1     you would be violations of the Geneva Conventions as well as actually at

 2     this time what -- what is relevant to us, of course, relevant to the

 3     UN Security Council resolutions, which referenced the Geneva Conventions.

 4        Q.   And when you -- when you expressed an opinion there, that they

 5     would be violations of the Geneva Conventions, the acts that you have

 6     described, whose -- whose conclusion was that?  Is that your personal

 7     opinion?

 8        A.   Oh, no, no.  I was saying that the resolutions would, in fact,

 9     reference those.  So they would be, of course, a reference in the

10     Mazowiecki report.  And there would also a reference, therefore, in the

11     UN Security Council decisions or presidential statements -- most of UN

12     resolutions of that -- UN Security Council resolutions at that time were

13     under chapter 7.

14        Q.   Okay.  Do you have any reason to believe that representatives of

15     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia' mission at the United Nations ever

16     read the Special Rapporteur's reports?

17        A.   I do.  There was discussion on these points.  There was a

18     discussion regarding the specifics.  There were some responses.  And

19     certainly they were present there when these matters were addressed

20     either particularly within the Security Council or other bodies of the

21     United Nations.

22        Q.   What do you mean -- sorry, I should pause.

23             What do you mean by responses?

24        A.   First of all, they were informal responses.  At some point in

25     time there may have also been submitted responses in writing that were

Page 7222

 1     either explicit or implicit to the points outlined in the Mazowiecki

 2     report.

 3        Q.   And these are --

 4        A.   There was also --

 5        Q.   Sorry, sir.  Three's are responses --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers are kindly asked to make a

 7     considerable pause between question and answer for the benefit of the

 8     accused.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Interpreter.

10             MS. BOLTON:

11        Q.   These are responses, sir, being either written or orally coming

12     from whom?

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'd like -- that question is compound.  Written

14     responses or oral responses.  We need to break them down so we know what

15     we're referring to here.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, any response to the objection?

17             MS. BOLTON:  I will rephrase.

18        Q.   The oral responses you were referring to, from whom would they

19     come?

20        A.   I would, of course, like to be more precise.  First of all, at

21     that time I was involved also in negotiations regarding the situation in

22     Bosnia.  So these issues were also brought up during the negotiations

23     that I was involved in at various sites from Geneva to New York, to other

24     places.  And number 2 we also brought these issues up in our case of

25     which I was agent - that is, our case, that is the case of Bosnia and

Page 7223

 1     Herzegovina versus Serbia and Montenegro brought before the Internation

 2     Court of Justice.  In all of these instances as well as in my capacity as

 3     ambassador, that is, permanent representative of Bosnia and Herzegovina

 4     to the United Nations - I'll try to slow down for the translator.

 5             We brought these matters up either directly or indirectly, and

 6     these matters were responded to by the representatives in each one of

 7     those capacities, that is either the council on behalf of the FRY before

 8     the Internation Court of Justice, the negotiators on behalf of the FRY

 9     during the negotiations, or the permanent mission of the

10     FRY Serbia and Montenegro to the United Nations.

11             MS. BOLTON:  It is break time, Mr. Sacirbey, and we will come

12     back to this issue after the break.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We take a break and come back at 4.00 p.m.

16             Court adjourned.

17                           --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, before the break, you had mentioned in response to

22     a question I asked you about how you knew that the Federal Republic

23     of Yugoslavia had read -- or that that their mission had read the report.

24     You mentioned there were responses, and you mentioned some of them were

25     written.

Page 7224

 1             Who made written responses to the Special Rapporteur's reports?

 2        A.   At least I'm familiar with a couple of instances where the

 3     representatives of the mission of the FRY, that is Serbia and Montenegro

 4     to the United Nations, had responded.  And I believe those responses were

 5     to the Security Council, or to the president of the Security Council,

 6     more accurately.

 7        Q.   Was there any coverage of the Special Rapporteur's reports in the

 8     media?

 9        A.   Certainly in the media that I was familiar with, yes.  Quite

10     extensive, in the region and in international media.

11        Q.   Could we look at portions of exhibit -- sorry, of tab 10A for

12     you.  And it's exhibit 2439, Prosecution Exhibit.

13        A.   Yeah.  I'm there, I believe.

14        Q.   Okay.  This is the first of the Special Rapporteur's reports, I

15     believe; is that correct?

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   And if I could -- I'm going to turn your attention to a few

18     passages, and then I will have some questions for you, okay?

19        A.   Please.

20        Q.   If I could ask you to turn to numbered paragraphs 6 and 7.  Have

21     you found those passages, sir?

22        A.   Yes, I have.

23        Q.   Paragraph 6 indicates:

24             "Most of the territory of the former Yugoslavia, in particular

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina, is, at present the scene of massive and

Page 7225

 1     systematic violations of human rights, as well as serious grave violences

 2     of humanitarian law.  Ethnic cleansing is the cause of most such

 3     violations."

 4             Paragraph 7 continues:

 5             "The Special Rapporteur was able to collect credible testimony

 6     concerning the policy of ethnic cleansing and the methods applied to

 7     achieve its aim.  According to the testimony received, the policy has

 8     been openly pursued on the territory of those parts of

 9     Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia which are controlled by ethnic Serbs."

10             Were those sections or comments by the Special Rapporteur the

11     subject of any inform or formal discussions at the UN Security Council?

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Once again, the question is compound.  And I

13     think there needs to be a distinction between that which is informal and

14     that which is formal.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Again, it's up to me if I feel there needs to be

16     clarification, Your Honour, or --

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Fine.  Compound.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

19             MS. BOLTON:  My response is the same, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Will you please repeat

21     it just for the sake of clarity?

22             MS. BOLTON:  Certainly.

23        Q.   Sir, is there any discussion of the -- these sections of the

24     report in informal consultations of the Security Council, to which you

25     were privy?

Page 7226

 1        A.   Yes -- yes, there was.

 2        Q.   How much was it discussed?

 3        A.   Extensively.

 4        Q.   And do you recall whether or not there was a discussion in any of

 5     the formal sessions of the Security Council, the public sessions?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What significance did your government, if any, attach to these


 9        A.   Clearly they spoke of particular facts that constituted grave

10     violations of humanitarian law.  It, in fact, gave now new meaning -- I

11     shouldn't say new meaning.  It confirmed the notion of ethnic cleansing

12     and what it constituted and, of course, it spoke of these violations

13     being committed in the area controlled by, as it cites here, ethnic

14     Serbs.  We frankly would use the word "Serbian forces."

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By which you would mean?

16             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, we always understood that this term,

17     "Serbian forces" referred to the forces of Belgrade, the military force

18     of Belgrade, as well as those, in fact, that were their agents in Bosnia

19     and Herzegovina.  And I say "we," that is, the mission of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina to be again very clear on that point.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And if you had to distinguish between those two,

22     what terminology would you use?

23             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, we would refer maybe to the term

24     "Pale Serbs."  We were -- "we," again, the mission of Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina, and I believe the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina with

Page 7227

 1     its multi-ethnic makeup, was committed to preserving a multi-cultural,

 2     multi-ethnic state; and therefore we did not wish to see any of the

 3     population of Bosnia and Herzegovina be somehow branded in any fashion by

 4     its ethnicity.  We only wished to see political or ideological forces be

 5     branded for their actions within Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 6             While victims may have been identified by their religion or

 7     ethnicity, we did not wish to identify perpetrators by such.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And in this specific incident when you said

 9     "Serbian forces" you meant both the Pale forces and the Serbian forces as

10     in Serbia, or did you mean either of the two?

11             THE WITNESS:  We met both because it was "we," again, the mission

12     of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Your Honour it was difficult sometimes for us

13     to distinguish.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS:  We knew there was a free movement of goods and, of

16     course, men across the border.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Bolton.

20             MS. BOLTON:

21        Q.   One of the phrases that the Special Rapporteur used is the phrase

22     "systematic violations."  Did that have any interest to the government of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24        A.   Systematic violations would now go beyond individual acts that

25     may have been perpetrated, let's say in a moment of particular military

Page 7228

 1     action or one might even say in the heat of the movement.  In fact, these

 2     actions were not coincidental to the conflict, but in fact were the very

 3     purpose.  These actions were intended to drive the population.  So we --

 4     if we want to discuss gender-based crimes, of course, there was also rape

 5     of men.  But rape of women, enforced pregnancy; they were intended to in

 6     fact derive a result of genocide.

 7             So this was not just a coincidental measure or element of the

 8     war; in fact, it was the intended purpose.

 9        Q.   And when you're speaking there, again, are you expressing your

10     personal views, or those of your government, or someone?

11        A.   I'm actually expressing there the views -- and particular, of

12     course, the mission of Bosnia and Herzegovina, because we had an

13     opportunity to evaluate this information and try to address it in the

14     context of our responsibilities vis-a-vis various institutions of the

15     international community.

16             I also actually -- that context could address it in terms of our

17     efforts before the Internation Court of Justice, as I said, while I was

18     an agent, I could also address that in the context of negotiation where I

19     was one of the negotiators on behalf of the government of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina.  So it was actually in all of those capacities.

21        Q.   Could you turn to paragraph 17 and 18 of this document, please?

22        A.   I am there.

23        Q.   Could I just have you confirm for me what is being discussed in

24     paragraphs 17 and 18.

25        A.   We are speaking here of the siege, as -- as it very much focuses

Page 7229

 1     now also on tactics that are intended, or strategy if you would really,

 2     that are intended to deprive the population of essential goods, but also

 3     obviously the tactic of directly inflicting harm, that is, through

 4     shelling and sniping.

 5             Paragraph 18 brings us to this term and -- that I would, of

 6     course, I would uses a different term in today's world, but it is one

 7     that is meant to threaten and scare the population --

 8        Q.   Okay.  Sir, I'm going to cut you off there, okay?

 9        A.   Yeah.

10        Q.   I don't want to discuss that issue.

11             And, again, did you have any -- anyone from your mission or you

12     personally have any influence on the conclusions that the

13     Special Rapporteur reaches in paragraph 17, for example, that -- sorry,

14     that snipers, for example, shoot innocent civilians?

15        A.   No, I did not.  Not that I'm aware of, any way, of course.

16        Q.   Could you turn to just the last section of the report which is

17     the recommendations section, and it starts at page -- sorry, at

18     paragraphs 58 and following.

19        A.   Yes, I have that.

20        Q.   One of the recommendations made in this document is that a

21     commission be established to investigate specific cases and determine

22     whether prosecution is warranted.  Do you recall that recommendation?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Was that acted upon?

25        A.   UN Security Council resolution way adopted which then established

Page 7230

 1     a commission of experts which in fact then brought about the birth of the

 2     International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, and our

 3     mission to the United Nations strongly endorsed all of those steps.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And if I could just ask you in that regard.  You mentioned

 5     two things:  The commission of experts, and the establishment of the

 6     Tribunal.

 7             Could you turn to tab 11, please.

 8             This is it 65 ter 6572.

 9        A.   Are we there?  We're just having a little difficulty getting

10     through the papers.  Thank you.

11        Q.   Okay.  I don't what is worse electronics or binders.

12        A.   We're there.

13        Q.   Resolution 780?

14        A.   Actually, tab 11 is not that document.

15        Q.   Okay.

16        A.   What was the resolution number?

17        Q.   Resolution 780.  Should be --

18        A.   Yes.  I have Resolution 781 in front of me.  And tab 80 is a

19     different document.  Let me see if I can help.

20             I do not have Resolution 780 at least in that location.  But I'm

21     sure if you wish me to speak about it, I am familiar with those.

22        Q.   Okay.  We have it in electronic form.  Let me just read you

23     the -- the -- well, first, do you recall what that accomplished,

24     Resolution 780?

25        A.   If I believe -- if I'm -- Ms. Bolton, I would prefer that you

Page 7231

 1     always give me the subject matter so that I'm just not -- this was the

 2     time, of course, that we did have the -- the UN resolution adopted

 3     regarding the commission of experts.

 4        Q.   That's fine, sir.

 5        A.   That was one of --

 6        Q.   Sorry.  I don't want you to guess.  Let me -- I will read you the

 7     pertinent passage.  I'm reading to you, sir, from Resolution 780

 8     paragraph 2, document reads:

 9             "Request the Secretary-General to establish as a matter of

10     urgency an impartial commission of experts to examine and analyse the

11     information submitted pursuant to Resolution 771, 1992, and the present

12     resolution together with such further information as the commission of

13     experts may obtain through its own investigations or efforts of other

14     persons or bodies pursuant to Resolution 771 with a view to providing the

15     Secretary-General with its own conclusions on the evidence of grave

16     breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other violations of international

17     humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia."

18             Now that I have read that passage to you, sir, does that refresh

19     your memory as to what Resolution 780 achieved?

20        A.   Yes it does.  It was also a particular point of discussion during

21     the London Conference.

22        Q.   What did Resolution 780 achieve, sir?

23        A.   It was the first step in evaluating the methodology by which an

24     international crime Tribunal would be established.  And also the

25     commission of experts did in fact bring about a lot of documentary and

Page 7232

 1     other evidence regarding the types of violations of international

 2     humanitarian law that were happening on the territory.

 3             I actually reviewed a lot of that evidence personally, and it did

 4     leave an impact upon me.

 5        Q.   Did the -- was a commission of experts in fact established?

 6        A.   Yes, it was.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  I'm going to ask that 65 ter -- that the document

 9     we've been discussing, 65 ter 6572 be marked as an exhibit, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is submitted.  May it please be given

11     an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

13     Exhibit P2451, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             MS. BOLTON:

16        Q.   Just -- the binder that you were just looking at, sir, did it

17     have a --

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.    -- label on it of a year?  Because it should have been in a

20     binder marked "1993."

21        A.   Ah, okay.  Well, we were looking at a binder called -- labelled

22     "1992."  And that's where tab 11 was.

23        Q.   Okay.  Just take a moment, if you wouldn't mind, just turn to

24     tab 11 in that binder number 2 to see if is in fact there.

25     Resolution 780?

Page 7233

 1        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...  I see what you're saying.  I did not

 2     understand your comment.  No, it is not.

 3        Q.   It's not in the 1993 binder?

 4        A.   No, 1992 we were looking at.  I'm sorry, there is no -- is there

 5     a tab 11?

 6             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  The 1993/1994 binder,

 7     Your Honours, starts at tab 14.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.  All right.  If you would give Mr. Sacirbey

 9     the tab 14, the binder 1993.  And if you would turn to tab 14.  The other

10     issue we were discussing was -- you mentioned the establishment of the

11     Tribunal.  And you should have at tab 14 Resolution --

12     65 ter number 4928.  Which is Resolution 808.

13        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.

14        Q.   Okay.  And there, there is a reference on the first page in the

15     last paragraph to the Security Council having considered an interim

16     report of the commission of experts.  And the commission --

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   "And the commission having observed that the decision to

19     establish an ad hoc international Tribunal in relation to events in the

20     territory of the former Yugoslavia would be consistent with ... its

21     work."

22             And then on the next page, it would appear there was a decision

23     to establish an international Tribunal.  Is that a fair summary of what

24     this resolution accomplished, sir?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 7234

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

 4     an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

 6     Exhibit P2452.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, madam.

 8             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 9             MS. BOLTON:

10        Q.   And if could you turn in that 1993 binder, sir, to tab 16.

11        A.   Will this be also within 1993?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   We may be having a little difficulty again identifying this

14     document.

15             Could you identify the resolution number?  Maybe we can find it

16     that way.

17        Q.   Resolution 827.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  We have tab 15.

19             MS. BOLTON:  16.

20             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  We don't have tab 16 here.

21             THE WITNESS:  Ms. Bolton, I was able to read the screen before,

22     so maybe we could employ that method again.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Oh all right.  You were able to see it

24     electronically?

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes I was.

Page 7235

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at it electronically then if that's working for

 2     us.

 3        A.   Yeah.  It was quite clear.

 4        Q.   So the 65 ter number is 5001.  And the -- Madam Registrar is

 5     going to display it for you, I think.

 6        A.   Yes.  I -- I can make it out pretty well.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   Please proceed.

 9        Q.   Yes.  And how did -- sorry, this is also a resolution that

10     discusses --

11        A.   We were able to now find tab 16 in another book, and it, as you

12     mentioned, Resolution 827.  So we can go back to whatever you prefer.

13        Q.   Okay.  Properly easier for you to read the paper form.  And --

14        A.   Yes, it is.  Thank you.

15        Q.   And I just want to -- to confirm that this is a true copy of

16     Resolution 827 passed on the 25th of May, 1993?

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   And this makes reference again to the establishment of an

19     international Tribunal for the prosecution of persons responsible for

20     violations of international humanitarian law.

21             And my question is:  Do you recall what position the

22     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia took with respect to the establishment of

23     said Tribunal.

24        A.   While Bosnia and Herzegovina urged the establishment of this

25     Tribunal, remember we met with significant opposition from the

Page 7236

 1     representatives of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we do -- thank you so much.  Thank you

 4     so much.  It's admitted.

 5             What 65 ter number is it?

 6             MS. BOLTON:  5001, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  It's admitted.  May it please

 8     be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be exhibit number P2453, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             MS. BOLTON:  If we could please go back to Exhibit P2439.

12        Q.   Which, for you, sir, was tab 10A, the first Mazowiecki report in

13     the 1992 binder.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And I apologise.  I know it is cumbersome to have all these

16     binders.

17        A.   No problem at all.  I certainly understand the significance of

18     the Court's work here.

19             I'm there.

20        Q.   Paragraph 31 of the report.

21        A.   Thank you.  I'm there.

22        Q.   About two thirds of the way through the paragraph, it starts by

23     talking about the fact that the leadership of the Federal Republic of

24     Yugoslavia does not openly endorse the policy of ethnic cleansing.  And

25     then there's a sentence about two thirds of the way down that says:

Page 7237

 1             "However, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Serbia clearly

 2     exercise very great influence on the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina which without their cooperation would be completely cut off

 4     from the rest of the world."

 5             Was there any discussion at that time as to what the alleged

 6     cooperation was?

 7        A.   Yes, there was.  Of course, from the level of military to the

 8     political, in particular, as you noted, this paragraph also speaks of the

 9     notion of cantonization.  Actually as early -- as May of 1992 there's a

10     reference in the Secretary-General's report that the policy of ethnic

11     purification was being pursued in the context of a desire toward

12     cantonization.

13             So here we have speaking of military action that is in fact meant

14     to bring about that result and meant to bring about ethnically pure

15     cantons, and then such cantons being in effect realized through some

16     political or negotiated process.  That is being legitimatised through

17     that process.

18        Q.   Sir, I'm finished with that document.  I want to deal briefly

19     with the second report that was released by the Special Rapporteur which

20     you'll find at tab 10B and which has been marked as Exhibit 2440,

21     Prosecution Exhibit.

22        A.   I'm there.

23        Q.   If you'd turn to --

24             MS. BOLTON:  Brief indulgence.

25        Q.   Paragraph 6 of that report.

Page 7238

 1        A.   I see that.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   There, in that report, that paragraph begins by the sentence:

 3             "The Special Rapporteur shares the view of other observers that

 4     the principal objective of the military conflict in Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina is the establishment of ethnically homogenous regions.

 6     Ethnic cleansing does not appear to be the consequence of the war, but

 7     rather, its goal.  This goal to a large accident has already been

 8     achieved through killings, beatings, rape, destruction of houses, and

 9     threats.  Such practices have intensified in recent weeks, and there is

10     less and less resistance on the part of the non-Serbian population,

11     increasing numbers of whom are ready to abandon everything and to flee

12     their home land.  Recent events observed in the region of Prijedor,

13     Doboj, and Kotor Varos prove that Serbian leaders in Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina are not ready to desist in their plans."  And then it

15     continues on from there.

16             I would like to know to what extent if any this statement in

17     particular, this statement that "ethnic cleansing wasn't a consequence of

18     the war but it's goal" was the subject of the discussion at the

19     United Nations Security Council firstly in any private consultations?

20        A.   It was in fact a crucial point of discussion in the private

21     discussions as well as public.

22        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us what action, if any, it spurred on the

23     part of the United Nations Security Council?

24        A.   Keeping in mind that the goal was ethnic homogenization of

25     regions, of course, that would intend to also impact on the issue of what

Page 7239

 1     the solutions would be to the conflict.  Of course, initially the entire

 2     point would be to discuss not only the fact that these crimes were

 3     occurring, but also that they were systematic with an intended goal.  And

 4     then, of course, one would also have to discuss them in the context of

 5     the political solution to the conflict.

 6             Part of that political solution, in my view - that is, the view

 7     of the mission of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I believe in the view of

 8     the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a whole, which, as I

 9     mentioned, had many members of -- of ethnic groups other than Muslim or

10     Croat for that matter - was that these policies, since they were the

11     objective, would have to be reversed as part of any political solution.

12     And, therefore, that allowing people to return to their homes, rather

13     than having them resettled, was the desired solution.

14             During the discussions within the UN Security Council, the

15     General Assembly, but particularly during negotiations, the Serbian

16     side - and here I refer to both Belgrade and Pale - representatives, were

17     in fact committed to preserving the status quo created by the conflict.

18     That is, the consequences of ethnic cleansing.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.

20             Are aware of whether the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia received

21     a copy of that report?

22        A.   As other reports, it would have been made available to them

23     directly, that is, being forwarded to them as on the distribution list.

24        Q.   And in terms of the discussions you've told us about taking

25     place, you said both public and private with respect to the

Page 7240

 1     Security Council, do you recall to what extent, if any, the

 2     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia participated in those discussions on this

 3     issue?

 4        A.   They did.  In both -- at least at that time in the -- in the

 5     context of private discussions.  I do not believe that at that moment the

 6     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Serbia and Montenegro spoke directly in a

 7     public forum of the UN Security Council.

 8        Q.   Okay.  There is not obviously time to discuss each of these

 9     report, sir, so I'm going to turn to another topic.  And going back

10     chronologically now with events in 1992, I just want to turn to a couple

11     of other developments.

12             The first issue I just wish to establish is if you would look at

13     tab 12 in the 1992 binder.  It will be Prosecution Exhibit 471.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that an exhibit?

15             MS. BOLTON:  It's already in evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 471.

16        A.   I believe I'm there.  Is this Resolution 781?

17        Q.   It is, sir.

18        A.   Great.

19        Q.   And I'm interested, if you'd look at the numbered paragraphs on

20     page 2 ...

21        A.   I'm there.

22        Q.   This is a decision in paragraphs 1 and 2 I just wish to ask you

23     about.

24             The first paragraph indicates that there's to be established a

25     ban on military flights in the air space of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

Page 7241

 1     that's not to apply to UNPROFOR flights.

 2             And the second paragraph:  A request that the United Nations

 3     Protection Force monitor compliance with the ban on military flights,

 4     including the placement of observers where necessary at air fields in the

 5     territory of the former Yugoslavia.

 6             First, could you tell us what -- whether there was any particular

 7     event or events that spurned or caused the Security Council to pass this

 8     resolution?

 9        A.   There were several.  Number one, there were, of course, reports

10     of military flights, and what I mean by that is it not only in the

11     context of reinforcement of supplies but also in actual attacks.

12        Q.   Originating from where?

13        A.   Originating from what we believe is Serbia and Montenegro.  And

14     also this was -- this was a particularly intense --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey.

16             THE WITNESS:  -- point of discussion at the London Conference.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.

18             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Unfortunately I was not quick enough on my feet.

20     I object to the question unless there is personal knowledge with regard

21     to where the flights were originating from.  There is some indication of

22     the basis of the knowledge.  Otherwise, it's speculation.

23             MS. BOLTON:  I'm asking the witness to explain the context of the

24     resolution which specifically mentions the placement of observers where

25     necessary air fields in the territory of the former Yugoslavia.  So I'm

Page 7242

 1     asking him to explain what information was available to the

 2     Security Council that resulted in them using that language.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I can also help on this point if I --

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, there is an objection pending, sir.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard to the question asked, that

 7     question -- that may well have been the Prosecutor's intent, but that

 8     question as it is framed does not indicate such an intent.  And if that's

 9     the question being asked, then I have no objection at this time.  But

10     think -- once again, this is why I've been trying to get some kind of

11     specificity and focus with regard to the questioning and the answer,

12     otherwise, we're -- we really are running amock.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, can you phrase the question as you

14     have phrased it laterally.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, sir.

16        Q.   If you recall then, sir, could you tell us what information the

17     Security Council had available to it that caused it to use the language

18     or to want to place observers at air fields in the territory of the

19     former Yugoslavia?

20        A.   Ms. Bolton, this question came -- this issue came in particular

21     focus at that time because during the London Conference there was

22     tremendous discussion of the violations of Bosnian air space by military

23     flights.  And in fact this was part of the negotiation -- discussions

24     during the London Conference, which was -- which was attended by the

25     Secretary-General and in his reports where these issues were addressed to

Page 7243

 1     the Security Council.  And as a consequence of those discussions -- at

 2     the London Conference and the reports of the Secretary-General, then in

 3     fact this relation was adopted.

 4        Q.   When was the London Conference?

 5        A.   It was at the end of August 1992 [Realtime transcript read in

 6     error, "1993"]

 7        Q.   And who --

 8        A.   They were -- excuse me.  They were independent reports before and

 9     after then but in fact these reports were very much addressed and if you

10     would confirm during the discussions in the London Conference.

11        Q.   Sir, I just asked you -- but I have to interrupt.  There's an

12     error in the transcript, Your Honour, at line 16.  The witness indicated

13     "August 1992" and it reads "August 1993."

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's noted, yeah, it should be 1992.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   And, sorry -- the London Conference was a meeting of whom, sir?

17        A.   It was a meeting called by the two primary negotiating bodies for

18     the region, one is the United Nations, and the other one would be the

19     Europe Union.  And the London Conference was chaired by the prime

20     minister of the United Kingdom, at the time, Mr. John Major and by the

21     Secretary-General of the United Nations.  It was also attended by

22     representatives of the United States, the Organisation of the Islamic

23     Conference.  If I'm not mistaken, there were about 50 other countries

24     besides the representatives of the countries in the region, including

25     Serbia and Montenegro, that is, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

Page 7244

 1     Croatia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as others.

 2        Q.   And at the London Conference you indicated there was discussion

 3     of the violations of Bosnian air space by military.  Was there any

 4     discussion of where the flights were originating?

 5        A.   Yes, there was.  The information was at least some of the flights

 6     were originating from the territory of Serbia and Montenegro.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.  If I could ask you to turn to tab 13 in that

 8     same binder.  You should have before you document 65 ter 2189, Resolution

 9     787.

10        A.   I do have that in front of me.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Brief indulgence.

13        Q.   The resolution, looking at the second page midway through,

14     notes -- there's a paragraph starting with:  "Deeply concerned ..." and

15     it says about reports of continuing violations of the embargo imposed by

16     Resolution 713 and 724.  And then the next paragraph expresses deep

17     concern of reports of violations of the measures imposed by

18     Resolution 757.  We've already discussed those resolutions.

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   Can you remind us what Resolution 713 accomplished.  If you know?

21        A.   Resolution 713 was an embargo upon -- what was then termed

22     Yugoslavia in the territory of the former Yugoslavia of military goods.

23        Q.   And the measures that were imposed by Resolution 757?  What were

24     we talking about there?

25        A.   Those actually now differentiated between Serbia and Montenegro

Page 7245

 1     that is the FRY, and Bosnia and Herzegovina, and imposed sanctions upon

 2     the FRY for violations of the international border with Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina, including, of course, violations of military goods and

 4     personnel.

 5        Q.   This resolution in paragraph 9 prohibits the transshipment --

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   -- of a number of items, including -- and this is a transshipment

 8     through the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia -- crude oil, coal, iron,

 9     steel, et cetera, you can read what's before you.

10             I want to know when this resolution was discussed what the reason

11     was for including those particular materials.

12        A.   This actually is in large part again borne out of the London

13     Conference.  During the London Conference under the leadership of

14     Prime Minister Milan Panic, at that time.  The Federal Republic of

15     Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro had committed itself to numerous

16     measures from refraining attacks on Bosnia and Herzegovina or at least

17     having its territory used for such attacks from violations of that

18     international border, in terms of men and goods, and, of course, from

19     specific actions within Bosnia in terms of continuing attacks upon

20     population centres.

21             Unfortunately, those commitments were not heeded, and one would

22     recall the Prime Minister Milan Panic soon challenged

23     President Slobodan Milosevic for the Presidency of Serbia lost and

24     resigned, and, of course, with the failure of those provisions of the

25     London Conference meant to if not stop the conflict at least defuse it.

Page 7246

 1     This resolution in fact did come out.  And it was meant to heighten the

 2     pressure upon Serbia to comply with those elements and to, of course,

 3     impose further sanctions for the fact that Serbia had not met those

 4     commitments.

 5        Q.   I don't think you answered my question, sir, which was my why

 6     these particular materials were singled out?

 7        A.   Because they had military value.

 8        Q.   Was there any information available to the Security Council at

 9     that time to suggest, as you have indicated, that there had not been

10     compliance on the part of the the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia with the

11     commitments that had been made at the London Conference?

12        A.   Yes there was.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The extent to which the questions are

14     increasingly becoming leading and the Prosecution is testifying is

15     becoming troublesome and if the witness wishes to testify that's fine.

16     If the Prosecution wishes for the witness to testify, I would object on

17     the grounds of it being leading.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton do you have any response?

19             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  In respect of this question, I'm not leading.

20     I think I'm following up on what the witness has already told us.  I can

21     rephrase if Your Honour wishes.  I don't want to slow down any further,

22     if you feel I should rephrase, I will rephrase.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think, yes -- sorry.

24             I think the witness has testified to this fact.  Failure to

25     comply, Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 7247

 1             MS. BOLTON:

 2        Q.   Could you answer the question then, sir?

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, is that all right, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If that be the case then the witness is

 6     testifying, then I guess I would have another objection which would be

 7     asked and answered.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  See, the witness has testified to the existence of

 9     failure to comply not to the extent ... oh, I see.

10             If it has been answered.  I don't know, I don't know what you're

11     asking here for in addition to the fact that you comply.  Madam Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  My question is the witness has said that there was a

13     failure on the part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to comply, and

14     I'm now asking what evidence the Security Council had of that failure to

15     comply with the commitments that it made.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I certainly wouldn't object to that question as

17     propounded.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             Then you are allowed, Madam Bolton, to put the question.

20             MS. BOLTON:

21        Q.   Sir, my question then is:  What evidence the Security Council had

22     of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia's failure to comply the time that this

23     resolution was discussed, if you can recall?

24        A.   At the London Conference there was also a decision to deploy

25     additional monitors on the border, and also from the existing

Page 7248

 1     UN Protection Force and other monitoring forces, in fact, that was the

 2     information that was being provided.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.

 4             Again, with respect to the next paragraph that resolution,

 5     paragraph 10, there's a special sanction that specifically relates to

 6     vessels operating from or in which there's a majority controlling

 7     interest in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 8             What was the information available to the Security Council at

 9     that time with respect to how vessels were being used by the federal --

10     or by -- how was this -- what was this contact?

11        A.   Without going into any sort of geography details here.  There are

12     lakes, there are water -- that is, there is sea and there is also rivers

13     that in fact surround the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  The border in

14     particular between the FRY and Bosnia and Herzegovina is by river.

15             And we were receiving information that particularly energy

16     supplies were being delivered to the FRY and then we were also receiving

17     information - we that is I should emphasise here for the Court' benefit

18     that is not only the mission of Bosnia and Herzegovina but the Security

19     Council was receiving information - that vessels were being used to

20     transport goods across the river from Serbia and Montenegro into Bosnia

21     and Herzegovina.

22             These vessels would then presumably be able to avoid the monitors

23     that were in most instances specifically focussed on the bridges across

24     the river.

25        Q.   You said in your answer that you had information that

Page 7249

 1     particularly energy supplies were being delivered to the Federal Republic

 2     of Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   That is correct.  And then also such supplies being delivered as

 4     well as military supplies, that is, direct weapons and ammunition as well

 5     as men from the FRY to Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So, I'm sorry.  Was the Security Council concerned about

 7     energy supplies being delivered to Yugoslavia as well weapons and

 8     ammunition coming from Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   To the extent that those were in violation of Resolution 757.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does Resolution 757 prohibit any exports into FRY?

11             THE WITNESS:  It -- it -- in fact, if those supplies are seen as

12     part of the war effort within Bosnia and Herzegovina, it does,

13     Your Honour.  And this was -- this was a continuing point of discussion

14     through the conflict.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure you have answered my question

16     very directly.

17             My question is --

18             THE WITNESS:  Very directly.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question is:  Did that resolution forbid any

20     exports into Serbia itself, or did it forbid exports into

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22             THE WITNESS:  There was a prohibition of the supply of goods to

23     Serbia and Montenegro in that resolution, which in fact could include and

24     did include under the -- there was -- Your Honour, to be very clear on

25     this, the UN Security Council then would establish what was called a

Page 7250

 1     commission to review the sanctions regime.  And this commission, of

 2     course, would, over time, deal with not only various new resolutions that

 3     would be meant to either amend or supplement previous resolutions, but

 4     they would also deal with the interpretation of whether or not certain

 5     resolutions were being violated.

 6             As an example, there was at various points in time a discussion

 7     whether flights over Bosnia and Herzegovina involving helicopters purely

 8     as supplies rather than being involved in attacks whether that was a

 9     violation of the no-fly zone.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey --

11             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- may I please, with respect, stop you.  My

13     question is very simply.  Did Resolution 775, or 757 - I can't remember,

14     prohibit the importation of supplies into Serbia and Montenegro.  I think

15     if you say yes or no then I would be happy.

16             THE WITNESS:  The mission of Bosnia and Herzegovina understood it

17     as yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And this imports were allegedly coming from?  Was

19     it a worldwide embargo?

20             THE WITNESS:  The information was that the imports were coming

21     from neighbouring countries, as well as over the international

22     water-ways.  That is the Adriatic Sea.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I'm also asking:  Was this a worldwide embargo

24     imposed by the Security Council or by the UN?

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes it was.

Page 7251

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And was it voluntary or mandatory?

 2             THE WITNESS:  It was under chapter 7 which means it was

 3     mandatory.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             Madam Bolton.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Thanks.  I will move on from here.

 8             Just one moment, please.

 9        Q.   You had started your answer by indicating that the intention was

10     to put heightened pressure -- intention of this resolution was to place

11     heightened tension or pressure on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

12             What was putting pressure on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

13     through the imposition of economic sanctions going to achieve?

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, at this juncture, that would call for

15     speculation on the part of this particular witness.  He is being called

16     as a fact witness.

17             MS. BOLTON:  I will reword.

18        Q.   In terms of the discussions that were taking place within the

19     Security Council, either publicly or in informal consultations, what was

20     putting economic pressure or heightened pressure on the Federal Republic

21     of Yugoslavia hope to achieve?

22        A.   By a denial of both goods that had economic value as well as

23     military value, clearly the economy of Serbia and Montenegro would

24     suffer.  Those, of course, could include anything from a commercial goods

25     to -- as we even discussed here, energy supplies.  The idea would be of

Page 7252

 1     course that this would compel Serbia and Montenegro to comply with its

 2     earlier commitments now which numbered over several events starting with

 3     UN Security Council resolutions, and as I mentioned, the

 4     London Conference I believe up to this point in time.

 5        Q.   Was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia officially a party to this

 6     war at the time this sanction was imposed?

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well that may well call for a legal conclusion on

 8     the part of this witness.

 9             MS. BOLTON:

10        Q.   What was position was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia taking

11     as to whether it was part of the war at the time of this resolution?

12        A.   The mission of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the government of

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina certainly was of the view that --

14        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ...  Sir, -- I'm sorry, sir -- I have to

15     cut you off.  I'll interested in the position the Federal Republic of

16     Yugoslavia was taking as to whether it was a party to the war.

17        A.   I'm sorry I did not understand you.  They, in fact, claimed not

18     to be a party to the conflict.

19        Q.   So within the context of the discussions that took place at the

20     Security Council, what good was it going to do to impose economic

21     sanctions on a country that wasn't part of the war?

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, that question is certainly highly

23     speculative and has been the subject matter of a myriad of tomes

24     concerning the whole viability of sanctions, how to use sanctions, what

25     is the appropriateness of them.  This is certainly not an appropriate

Page 7253

 1     question for this particular witness.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  The question is phrased within the context of

 4     the discussions that took place at the Security Council, I'm trying to

 5     get at if there were discussions about what good -- what -- what they

 6     were hoping to achieve by imposing the sanctions against the

 7     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're asking it as a position by the FRY.  Now he

 9     is not from the FRY.  He is from Bosnia and Herzegovina.  You can ask him

10     about the position of the -- of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11             MS. BOLTON:  My --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What did you, as Bosnia-Herzegovina, together with

13     the Security Council, hope to achieve by what you did?

14             MS. BOLTON:  What I was actually trying to get, and my wording is

15     perhaps incorrect, is -- and -- actually, I'm fine with the witness

16     answering Your Honour's question.

17             THE WITNESS:  The view of Bosnia and Herzegovina was that greater

18     pressure on Serbia and Montenegro, that is, the government in Belgrade,

19     would bring about their withdrawal of direct and indirect support for the

20     conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21             MS. BOLTON:

22        Q.   And was that strategy something that you shared with the

23     Security Council at any time?

24        A.   Yes, it was.  And it was also something that we would share with

25     the special commission, the sanctions committee of the Security Council.

Page 7254

 1        Q.   And how was that strategy received by the Security Council?

 2        A.   It was, I think --

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It's -- no, it's okay.

 4             THE WITNESS:  And I want to be very precise here.  It was the

 5     Security Council I think who shared the same view or at least a very

 6     similar view.  There may have been member states that were more hesitant

 7     as indicated in the vote of the Security Council, but the Security

 8     Council position, I think, was clear on this point.  And these

 9     resolutions were adopted.

10             MS. BOLTON:

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Just moving forward in time.  Going to leave

12     that resolution.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Court's indulgence.

14             If that could be marked as an exhibit number, please,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

19     Exhibit P2454.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MS. BOLTON:

22        Q.   With respect to the next document in that same tab, sir, for you,

23     it is 65 ter 6765.  It's -- it should be right behind the resolution we

24     were just discussing.

25        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 7255

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   We have it.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   And with respect to this document, all I want you to do is look

 4     at it and confirm for me whether it is a copy of an actual document

 5     released by the United Nations.

 6        A.   Yes, I am familiar with it, and it is.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 9     please be given an exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be exhibit number P2455, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

12             Yes, Madam Bolton.

13             MS. BOLTON:

14        Q.   Sir, I want to move forward in time to 1993.  And I would just

15     ask to you if you can try to keep your answers to my questions as

16     succinct as possible.

17             Could you tell me what the state of peace negotiations or peace

18     talks was at the beginning of 1993?

19        A.   This was the Owen-Vance Plan, or -- I'm sorry, the

20     Vance-Owen Plan is the more accurate description, and at that time it was

21     about to be presented, and it was then to be -- continued to be discussed

22     in New York.

23        Q.   Okay.  And at that point in time, in terms of the territory of

24     Eastern Bosnia, do you recall how much of the territory of Eastern Bosnia

25     was in the control of the Serbian forces?

Page 7256

 1        A.   Overwhelmingly with the exception of enclaves such as Srebrenica

 2     and Gorazde that held out.  There were other enclaves as well which were

 3     soon overrun.

 4        Q.   Could you tell us what was happening then in the spring of 1993

 5     in Eastern Bosnia, according to the reports that were being received?

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm going to observe to that question as vague.

 7     By who?  Who is receiving these report?  Are we speaking about his

 8     delegation, are we speaking about the United Nations, are we talking

 9     about the Special Rapporteur?  Are we discussing, for example, sanctions

10     committee?

11             MS. BOLTON:  I'll clarify.

12        Q.   According to the reports that were being received at the

13     United Nations Security Council and General Assembly, what was happening

14     in Eastern Bosnia in the spring of 1993?

15        A.   I would define into two separate elements.  One is ongoing

16     military action that was meant to inflict direct harm.  The second one is

17     with the denial of necessities of live, including food.  And at that

18     point I was particularly involved because I had requested from the

19     US Pentagon that they undertake air drops, which I do understand were

20     undertaken at some time.

21        Q.   I'm going to ask you to turn to tab 15C in the binder for 1993.

22     65 ter numbers 8817, and it should be a document dated 5th April 1993.

23     Do you have that document before you?

24        A.   I do.

25        Q.   And it purports to be signed by Muhamed Sacirbey.  Can you

Page 7257

 1     confirm whether you did in fact author and sign this letter?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   What was your purpose in bringing to the attention the contents

 4     of this -- bringing to the attention the President of the Security

 5     Council the contents of this letter?

 6        A.   The Vance-Owen Peace Plan at that time had been in fact rejected

 7     by the Serbian forces and the intensity of the attacks and denial of

 8     necessities of life had significantly intensified.  Besides, of course,

 9     the very direct issues here that are addressed in terms of the military

10     actions and the shelling.

11             As -- as the focus of this area, of course, is the Drina river

12     valley, again in particular Srebrenica.

13        Q.   The last sentence you write in document is:

14             "May I request your kind assistance in circulating this letter as

15     a document of the Security Council?"

16             What does it mean if you ask a document to be circulated in that

17     manner?

18        A.   It means that it becomes an official document of the

19     Security Council and then is circulated to all members of the council but

20     also in fact all the United Nations member states, including, in this

21     case, the FRY, Serbia and Montenegro delegation.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

25     please be given an exhibit number.

Page 7258

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  The document will become exhibit number P2456,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

 4             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  A brief indulgence, Your Honour.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Sir, was there ever an occasion when you asked that a document be

 9     circulated as a document of the Security Council when it wasn't

10     circulated in that -- in that manner?

11        A.   One occasion.  And that was very early on in 1992.

12        Q.   Okay.

13        A.   I'm only aware of one occasion, and that was a particular point

14     of discussion.

15        Q.   Okay.

16        A.   All others I'm quite aware that they were circulated.  We

17     confirmed that exactly because of that one situation.

18        Q.   Very briefly, that one document that wasn't circulated, what

19     did -- what was the subject matter of that document so we can identify if

20     for the record.

21        A.   I'm not sure we would have it in the record here, but it was a

22     document relating to what we perceived as a re-definition of the conflict

23     by some writing of the secretariat.

24        Q.   Okay.  Approximately what -- can you tell us the month and year

25     of that document?

Page 7259

 1        A.   Yes, I can.  It occurred in late June or actually more like

 2     mid-June of 1992.

 3        Q.   Okay.  In the same tab that you were just in, there should be a

 4     second document with 65 ter number 4996, which is --

 5        A.   Yes, I do have that.

 6        Q.   Okay.  It should be titled letter dated 15 April 1993 from the

 7     charge d'affaires of the permanent mission of Turkey; is that correct?

 8        A.   That is correct.

 9        Q.   And it starts by indication in the second paragraph that the only

10     side that had not accepted the Vance-Owen Peace Plan up to that juncture

11     was the Bosnian Serb side.  Is that correct, sir?

12        A.   Again, yes, it is, keeping in mind my qualification about the use

13     of the word Bosnian Serb.

14        Q.   In the last paragraph there's talk of delay on the adoption of a

15     draft resolution of the Security Council designed to strengthen sanctions

16     against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   Are you aware of -- first was there in fact a delay on the

19     adoption of a draft resolution as described by the Turkish

20     representative?

21        A.   Yes, there was.

22        Q.   Were you aware at the time as to why those -- the adoption had

23     been delayed?

24        A.   Yes, I believe I am.

25        Q.   And what did you understand to be the reason for the delay?

Page 7260

 1        A.   The -- the presumed or the stated desire of Belgrade authorities

 2     to try to get the Pale Serbs to accept the Vance-Owen Plan.  I should, of

 3     course, highlight at this point in time that we did not see any

 4     distinction between those two forces.

 5        Q.   Sir, I was just looking at the clock, and it's time for the next

 6     recess.  And we will come back to this issue after the break, okay?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  We will take a break and come

 9     back at quarter to 6.00.

10             Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   I apologise, Mr. Sacirbey.  Both yesterday and today we have been

16     having some delays caused by the equipment.  But if can you recall where

17     we were before the break, we were discussing a letter authored by the

18     Turkish representative.

19             Do you still have that document in front of you, sir?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Okay.  Is this a document that you received during 1993, or is

22     this the first time you're seeing this document, or what's the situation?

23        A.   I had -- no, this is a document that I had seen at that time.

24        Q.   Okay.  He referred to a draft resolution, and I wonder if could

25     you just briefly -- we are going return to this document.  But if you can

Page 7261

 1     just return to the next tab in your binder.  You should have 65 ter 5000?

 2        A.   Yes, I'm there.

 3        Q.   This is titled the draft resolution dated 8th April 1993?

 4        A.   That is correct.

 5        Q.   And can you tell whether or not this is the resolution that the

 6     Turkish representative was referring to as being a draft resolution to

 7     strengthen the sanctions and being delayed in adoption?

 8        A.   I believe it is, Ms. Bolton.  As all of these document refer to

 9     draft resolutions which does not necessarily show the final form that

10     they're adopted in, but I believe, actually, there is the one we're

11     talking about.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's 5.000?

15             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  5.000 is admitted as an exhibit.  May it please be

17     given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2457, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             MS. BOLTON:

21        Q.   And if you could, sir, please, just flip back from the document

22     from the Turkish representative being 65 ter 4996.

23        A.   Right.

24             MS. BOLTON:  If I could just ask at this juncture that that be

25     marked as an exhibit, Your Honour.

Page 7262

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it be given an exhibit number

 2     too.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  It will become exhibit number P2458,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             MS. BOLTON:

 7        Q.   Sir, could I ask you to turn to --

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Should be 15E of the same binder.

 9        Q.   And I think you should have 65 ter 8818 in front of you; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   We're not sure.

12        Q.   It should be a letter from --

13        A.   What is the title of --

14        Q.   Letter dated 16 April 1993.

15        A.   No.  That -- it is a -- it is a Security Council resolution.  So

16     we'll try to see if we can identify it.

17        Q.   Sorry.  I think, then, if you would check tab F.

18        A.   Is this the -- is this the letter of 16 April from

19     Muhamed Sacirbey?

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   Yes, I have that now.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

25             MS. BOLTON:  I must have excellent hearing.  I can hear.

Page 7263

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 2             MS. BOLTON:

 3        Q.   Dealing with this document, sir, you refer -- and again the date

 4     is 16 April 1993.  First paragraph, to the horrifying situation in

 5     Srebrenica that is so well documented by the media around the world and

 6     confirmed by the United Nations personnel on the ground.  And then in the

 7     next paragraph you used the words "ongoing massacre."

 8             What information was the -- were you receiving as the

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina representative as to what was unfolding in Srebrenica

10     at that time?

11        A.   At that time, the United Nations force had sent in a military

12     convoy to evaluate what was going on.  I believe that was the convoy led

13     by then-Commander General Morillon.  And he in fact reported a very

14     dramatic situation.  And we did actually at that time also receive some

15     television or video film if you would that showed that the population was

16     being shelled.  And what I mean by "shelled," there were many refugees in

17     Srebrenica besides the residents of Srebrenica who were living in open

18     areas so the shells that came in frequently hit -- population did not

19     even have the benefit of being protected by walls.

20             We also had firsthand evidence of some refugee, particularly

21     children being evacuated by UN personnel, I believe, at that time, who

22     had sustained difficult injuries some of which -- some of them which did

23     not survive.  And the question really was not what was going on.  It was

24     clearly a massacre inflicted mostly by heavy weapons, to some extent by

25     sniper-fire, a population weakened by the humanitarian situation, but the

Page 7264

 1     question really was what to do about it, since in fact the UN force at

 2     least had -- apparently had a mandate to protect the civilian population.

 3        Q.   When you talk about the information -- we started talking about

 4     what information had you available to you.  To what extent was the

 5     information you've outlined made available to the United Nations

 6     Security Council?

 7        A.   In certain instances actually as strange as it may seem we were

 8     able to receive direct communication from some of these enclaves.  That

 9     communication came either through satellite phone or through some other

10     form of communication, actually came directly into our office.  So we had

11     information.  Sometimes it came to us directly, sometimes came from the

12     authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina - that is, the government which I

13     represented - and sometimes came in from the UN personnel on the ground.

14             In all of those instances, I think we every endeavored and did

15     convey that information in the form of UN documents whether it was a

16     document to the president of the Security Council, or a document to the

17     Secretary-General, which then was relayed to the entire membership.

18        Q.   So in this specific case, how much of the information you started

19     off telling us about the television reports, the firsthand reports of

20     refugees for example, how much of that information, if any, was made

21     available or available -- was available, sorry, to the UN Security

22     Council?

23        A.   I believe all of it was.  Although, of course, I received my

24     information continuously, and that's the way it remains in my mind.

25        Q.   You indicated that General Morillon was involved in this

Page 7265

 1     incident, or this occurrence.  Can you tell me what response the

 2     United Nations Security Council took to this situation?

 3        A.   There were several sources of information coming in about General

 4     Morillon's presence.  One, of course, was to the media; the other one was

 5     to the UN Secretariat; and the third one was actually through the

 6     representative of France to the Security Council, at that time Ambassador

 7     Jean Bernard Mery May.  As far as I know, all or most of this information

 8     came into the UN Security Council through these three sources and was

 9     made available.

10             At that time, these are very memorable moments, not only because

11     of the horrific events unfolding, but we had a midnight sessions

12     including one on -- over a weekend.  And I remember on this occasion, but

13     some others, well after midnight we were all, of course, not only waiting

14     for what further information might come but also what in fact consensus

15     might be reached either on a resolution or a presidential statement.  Of

16     course, UN Security Council resolutions did not have to be adopted by

17     consensus, but it was desirable that especially in these situation there

18     is would be a significant if not absolute consensus.

19        Q.   And was there ultimately any kind of a resolution or a statement

20     agreed upon?

21        A.   Yes.  There were several steps undertaken.  Resolutions that in

22     effect declared what was a relatively new concept declaring Srebrenica a

23     safe area, and also from this was borne the mission of the UN Security

24     Council team to actually visit Srebrenica.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 7266

 1             MS. BOLTON:  If that document we've been discussing could be

 2     marked as the next exhibit, please.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 4     number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

 6     Exhibit P2459.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             MS. BOLTON:

 9        Q.   Could you turn to the next tab in the binder you have before you,

10     sir.  You should have 65 ter 5003, and that is actually a report of the

11     Security Council mission.

12             Do you see that document, sir?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Okay.  I'm interested in pages 2 and 3.  We only have reproduced

15     the portions of the report, sir, that contain Resolution 819 from the

16     Security Council.  So --

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.    -- if you turn to page 2 of that document, please.

19        A.   I believe I'm there.

20        Q.   Okay.  There's three aspects of this resolution I'm going to be

21     asking you about, sir.

22             First aspect I want to talk about, sir, is -- let me just read

23     you a portion of the script, sir.  It's page 3 at the top of the page in

24     the English version.  There's an indication that aware -- starts with the

25     word:  "Aware that a tragedy humanitarian emergency has already developed

Page 7267

 1     in Srebrenica and its surrounding areas as a direct consequence of the

 2     brutal actions of Bosnian Serb paramilitary units, forcing the large

 3     scale displacement of civilians, in particular women, children and the

 4     elderly."

 5             And then there are references in a text to three things.  The

 6     first is a reference on the first page of the resolution, the

 7     paragraph that starts with the words:  "Taking note."

 8             And that paragraph refer to the International Court of Justice in

 9     its order of 8th April 1993 in the case concerning application of the

10     convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide.

11             So I want to ask you about that case.  Is that something that

12     you're familiar with?

13        A.   As agent of Bosnia and Herzegovina, before the International

14     Court of Justice on this case, I'm very familiar with it.

15        Q.   Who were the parties to that action?

16        A.   The government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina had brought

17     action against the government of Serbia and Montenegro, the Federal

18     Republic of Yugoslavia, that is.

19        Q.   And what was the nature of the -- first, what were you alleging?

20        A.   We were alleging that in all the events, the horrific events that

21     we have enumerated here - and I don't think the Court needs me go through

22     those events - that these, in fact, did constitute not only systematic

23     violations of international humanitarian law but in fact did constitute a

24     breach of the convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of

25     genocide.

Page 7268

 1        Q.   What relief were you seeking from the Court, sir?

 2        A.   Well, the first and most important step here which this

 3     paragraph refers to is provisional measures which would be a form of

 4     injunctive relief, i.e., the government in Belgrade should immediately

 5     cease and desist from all direct and indirect actions that in fact were

 6     part of the genocide.

 7             That meant, of course, military action directly involving the

 8     forces of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro,

 9     other forces, and, of course, all supplies and or political actions

10     consistent with that.

11        Q.   How did you start this cause of action?

12        A.   It was initiated with a filing, if I'm not mistaken, in very late

13     March, and we wished to make sure that in fact any peace agreement that

14     might have been signed at that time, including the Vance-Owen Peace Plan,

15     would not somehow estop the government but particularly the victims from

16     pursuing remedies consistent with those remedies that victims of genocide

17     would be entitled to.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, I would -- appreciating, of course,

19     the Chamber's ruling with regard to answers that are given, I would

20     appreciate it if the Prosecutor could kindly direct the witness to answer

21     the questions asked as opposed to going off on relatively long

22     discussions that are outside of the area.  If the Prosecutor wishes to

23     get those kinds of answers too, that should follow by way of question and

24     answer as opposed to the narrative form as many of these questions have

25     been taking.

Page 7269

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have any, response, Madam Bolton?

 2             MS. BOLTON:  With respect this question, I actually think the

 3     witness's answer was responsive to the question that was asked which was

 4     how the action started, and he told us when and that started with a

 5     filing in the Court.  So I take my friend's point, and I have asked the

 6     witness to try to be as succinct as possible, and I'll remind him of that

 7     again.  But I think that's as far as I can go, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You go a little further.  You can stop

 9     him.

10             MS. BOLTON:  I'll try, I find with the videolink it's hard.

11        Q.   But we will continue on this note, sir.

12             You talked about there being a filing and the letter refers --

13     sorry.  You talked about there being a filing.  I'm going suggest it was

14     by way of an application to the court.  Is that fair?

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   Was service of your application or notice of your application in

17     some form given to anyone from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

18        A.   It was, and the authorities of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

19     did appear in court.

20        Q.   Okay.  Who was -- who was responding on behalf of the

21     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; do you recall?

22        A.   Yes, I do.  I want to make sure I'm correct, though, in

23     responding because there were several events before the Court.  At that

24     time it was their diplomatic representative in The Hague and also, if I'm

25     not mistaken, representative of their Ministry of Justice.  At some point

Page 7270

 1     in time, and I believe I cannot be precise on this, there was also

 2     outside counsel that was retained by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 3     Whether he appeared actually on that date, I just -- for some reason I'm

 4     having a problem recalling that accurately.

 5        Q.   Could you look at tab -- the last -- well, I think it's tab 21 in

 6     my binder.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you go to tab 21, what do you want to do

 8     with 5003?

 9             MS. BOLTON:  I'm going to be coming back to the resolution, sir,

10     so I'm not going to ask that we tender that yet.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.

13        Q.   Do you have before you -- should have before you a copy of

14     document "International Court of Justice" is the first line, and it's

15     65 ter 6638.

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Okay.  This is an order of 8 April 1993.  Are you familiar with

18     this document?

19        A.   Yes, I am.

20        Q.   If I could direct you, please, sir, to paragraph 7 of the

21     judgement -- or 7 of the order.

22        A.   Okay.

23        Q.   And that starts --

24        A.   I think I have it.  It starts right at the very bottom of page --

25     is it -- it's not a page.  I think it's -- it starts at the very bottom

Page 7271

 1     of --

 2             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] The ERN number, Your Honours, here

 3     is 0342-3751.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  A brief indulgence.  Just hold on.

 5             If you could just turn to the next page, sir.  The 3242-3753 is

 6     the ERN number.

 7        A.   Yes, we have that.

 8        Q.   We have a bunch of bullet points starting with one from the

 9     murder summary execution, et cetera.  What are these bullet points

10     referring to?

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, at this point I'm going object unless --

12     first of all, as best evidence.  The document itself is the best evidence

13     of what we referred to.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, any comment?

15             MS. BOLTON:  I don't wish -- I'll try to be -- my friend is

16     content, I guess, that it's -- that the document is authentic.  If there

17     is no issue with respect to that, then I can move on from this area of

18     questioning.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I certainly wouldn't take a position other than

20     it's authentic.  I wouldn't believe that the Prosecution would be

21     submitting a filing that would be in front of an International Court of

22     Justice if it was not authentic.

23             MS. BOLTON:  All right.

24        Q.   If we could turn -- or I'll just direct you.  I'll tell you, sir,

25     that there is at paragraph 40 a reference to a -- a subsequent document

Page 7272

 1     entitle "A Supplementary Submission," which according to paragraph 40

 2     included accounts of military and paramilitary activities, including the

 3     bombing and shelling of towns and villages, forced migration of

 4     civilians, allegations of executions, torture, rape.

 5             And my question is:  That supplementary submission containing

 6     those accounts, in addition to being filed with the court, was a copy

 7     ever provided to the representatives of the Federal Republic of

 8     Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   Yes, it was.

10        Q.   And what was the source of the accounts or sources of the

11     accounts that were included in that document?

12        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Is this question within the personal knowledge of

16     the witness?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We can find out.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

19             MS. BOLTON:

20        Q.   Sir, do you know what the source or sources of the accounts that

21     were included in that document were?

22        A.   Yes.  They were both, as one might say, international sources,

23     independent sources, as well as sources of the government of the

24     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25             I believe, to be more accurate, I believe most of it in fact was

Page 7273

 1     independent sources or international sources as one would put.

 2             We -- we, I believe, also submitted some of the documents which

 3     we have referred to in the testimony today, including reports of

 4     Mr. Mazowiecki.

 5        Q.   And was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia given an opportunity

 6     to respond to your application and materials?

 7        A.   Yes, they were.

 8        Q.   And what was the nature of their response to your application?

 9     What position were they taking?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, once again, since we're dealing with a

11     series of legal documents, the best evidence of the response would be the

12     document itself.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But do we have the response in the document

14     itself, or is the document filed by the plaintiff?

15             MS. BOLTON:  The document we have is the order, Your Honour.  We

16     don't have available to us the response, so I'm asking the witness.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, then, I mean, there's a problem because now

19     the witness is being asked to interpret a legal document which is once

20     again potentially outside of his ken, it's not what he was called --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He is not being asked to interpret a legal

22     document.  He is being asked to say what the response of the FRY was to

23     the allegations that were put.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The question was what was the nature of the

25     response to your application, what position were they taking.

Page 7274

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, what position were they taking.

 2             Were they admitting or denying the facts, not the law.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  Well, I'm guided by the -- our guidelines,

 4     number 36, which deals with the best evidence.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  The -- there is no documentary evidence of

 6     the response from the FRY.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I appreciate that, Your Honour.  The best

 8     evidence of the response of the FRY is documentary evidence, which they

 9     have -- they have at this point chosen not to put forth.  It is

10     inappropriate for this witness to be discussing what their response is.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The best --

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I can tell what you the response was.  You can --

13     anybody in the world can tell what you the response was if they've read

14     the document.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  Now, the best evidence rule does say if

16     the document is there, tender the document.  If the document is not

17     there, obviously the next best evidence is what we accept.  That's what

18     the rule says.  And if there is no documentary evidence of their response

19     and this witness is aware of the response, can he tell us.  And if it is

20     disputed, it is own to the Defence to dispute that response.

21             Objection overruled.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Sir, could you tell us then what the response was of the

24     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to your application?

25        A.   One, was to challenge jurisdiction on several grounds, including

Page 7275

 1     succession issues; number 2, they, in fact, was a denial that they were a

 2     party to the conflict.  In some instances there was -- in many instances

 3     there was a denial of the actual facts, and, if you would, allegations

 4     outlined therein.  And in fact at one point in time the FRY did file a

 5     counteraction on behalf of what they claimed to be, quote/unquote, the

 6     Bosnian Serbs.

 7        Q.   Were you successful in obtaining the application you sought, sir?

 8        A.   With respect to the provisional measures, we did obtain that.

 9     And there was a subsequent ruling.  As to the eventual outcome of the ICJ

10     case, there was a ruling issued in February of 2007, if I'm not mistaken,

11     which did conclude that at least on some of the territory of the

12     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time that in fact genocide did

13     occur.  I'm not sure if I want me to go into any further detail.

14        Q.   No, sir.

15             MS. BOLTON:  With respect to the document then that we have been

16     discussing, 65 ter 6638, could I move for it to be admitted in evidence

17     at this point, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted, may it please be given an exhibit

19     number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours --

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Is that being offered for notice again, or is

22     that being offered for the proof -- for the truth of the matter of the

23     allegations contained in the document?  Now we have a legal pleading, and

24     the purpose for which is being offered is of some moment.

25             MS. BOLTON:  It's being offered for the purpose of the notice

Page 7276

 1     that it served us.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.  Understanding its limitation, there's

 4     no objection.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 6638 will become

 7     Exhibit P2460.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

 9             Yes, Madam Bolton.

10             MS. BOLTON:

11        Q.   In that same tab, sir, right after the order that we've been

12     discussing, you should find a one-page document, 65 ter 6638.02.  It's a

13     Security Council document with a date of 29th April, 1993?

14        A.   29th?

15        Q.   29th.

16        A.   Yes, I have that there for me.

17        Q.   This was a letter addressed to the president of the

18     Security Council from Boutros Boutros-Ghali.  The text indicates they're

19     transmitting the official text of the order.

20             My question is:  Once a document is sent to the president of the

21     Security Council -- sorry.  Let me just change my question.

22             Was the -- was the order -- the subject of -- sorry -- discussion

23     or circulation within the Security Council?

24        A.   Yes, it was.

25        Q.   I did ask a compounded question there.  First, was it circulated?

Page 7277

 1        A.   Yes, it was.

 2        Q.   All right.  To whom?

 3        A.   It was circulated once again, pursuant to the rules of documents

 4     being circulated, which is to all the members, including the FRY.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And in terms of the discussion that --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Madam Bolton, all the members of?

 7             THE WITNESS:  All the members of the United Nations including the

 8     FRY in view of its status at that time.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By the United Nations, you mean the members of the

10     General Assembly?

11             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, that's a --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Members of the United Nations, okay.

13             THE WITNESS:  That's a more difficult situation.  That's a fair

14     enough --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's just that -- the question had -- the question

16     had said was it circulated to members of the Security Council, and now

17     you say to all members of -- all members including the FRY.

18             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers] ... that is correct.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS:  That is correct.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Bolton.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, sir.  If document 6638.02, if that could

23     be marked as an exhibit, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

25     please be given an exhibit number.

Page 7278

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

 2     Exhibit P2461.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MS. BOLTON:

 5        Q.   We were discussing or you were indicating that the order was the

 6     subject of discussion in the Security Council.  And can you tell us

 7     anything further in that regard?  What was the impact on the Security

 8     Council?

 9        A.   Well, the most important element of this discussion would be how

10     the Security Council in fact might have the order provisional measures to

11     be enforced.  Of course, and to some extent, they were self-enforcing,

12     one would say, but in fact the Security Council itself could take further

13     measures to ensure enforcement, including under chapter 7.

14        Q.   Was the case raised in any other context outside of the

15     United Nations -- sorry, was it raised with anyone from the

16     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia outside of the United Nations Security

17     Council?

18        A.   Yes, it was.

19        Q.   In what context was it raised?

20        A.   It was raised in the context of negotiations, and it was, of

21     course, raised in the context of the actual, if you would, litigation

22     itself.  I'm sure that answer is not full.  I'm sure that there were

23     other areas, but those were two areas that I'm very much aware of.  It

24     was raised in the context of Dayton --

25        Q.   We'll come back to --

Page 7279

 1        A.   -- and all negotiations before that.

 2        Q.   Okay.  We'll come back to Dayton at a later point in time.

 3             I want to return to Resolution 819 which was 65 ter 5000[sic].

 4     Do you still have that available to you in the binder, sir, or do you

 5     need the tab number again?

 6        A.   Let me just make sure.

 7             Yeah, I think we need the tab number, if you don't mind.

 8        Q.   I think it's 15F.

 9        A.   Yes, it is ...

10        Q.   Do you have the --

11        A.   This is it the -- this is the delegation to Srebrenica, the

12     Security Council delegation to Srebrenica.

13        Q.   All right.  And, sorry, I think we were looking at pages 2 and 3

14     of the document, and that's where I think you should find the text of the

15     resolution, is that correct, or are you looking at a different document?

16        A.   I believe -- I believe I'm there.

17        Q.   Okay.  The second aspect of the order I wanted to discuss with

18     you is numbered paragraph 3, which you'll find on the second page.

19        A.   No, I think we're now -- there's some -- are we talking about

20     the -- the Registrar, and I are a little bit confused.  I want to make

21     sure -- are we talking about the report on Security Council mission

22     established pursuant to Resolution 819 or are we speaking of something

23     else, Ms. Bolton?

24        Q.   No, we are talking about the report and we're looking at

25     pages 2 and 3 of the actual report which reproduced the resolution.

Page 7280

 1        A.   I have that.  And you're talking about point number ...

 2        Q.   Points number 3, numbered paragraph.  The ERN on the page ...

 3        A.   Okay.

 4        Q.   You've got that?  Okay.

 5        A.   I believe so.  It starts with:  "Demands that ..."

 6        Q.   Yes.  All right.  So the wording there is -- this is the Security

 7     Council obviously:  "Demands that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

 8     Serbia and Montenegro" --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  Only for purposes of making sure that

11     we have a correct record, this is 65 ter 5003, not 5000.  5000 is now an

12     exhibit which is a the draft Resolution 819.

13             MS. BOLTON:  I thought I had said 5003, but I apologise if I

14     misspoke.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think you did miss speak, Madam Bolton.

16             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, that's correct it is 5003.

17        Q.   And the paragraph we're dealing with reads as follows:

18             "Security Council demands that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

19     Serbia and Montenegro immediately cease the supply of military arms,

20     equipment, and services to the Bosnian Serb paramilitary units in the

21     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

22             The Security Council included the word "cease" there.  Do you

23     recall what information the Security Council had available to it as to

24     what military arms, equipment, or services had been provided up and to

25     that point in time?

Page 7281

 1        A.   In addition to the information I think that we have already

 2     discussed, the delegation that we speak of here under the leadership of

 3     Ambassador Diego Arria had actually also visited Belgrade and in fact

 4     then provided some firsthand information related to this resolution.  And

 5     number 2, it was also related to the decision, that is, the provisional

 6     measures of the International Court of Justice.

 7             I hope I'm being responsive to that.

 8        Q.   I don't think you are, sir.  My question, if I could repeat it

 9     for you, was:  The Security Council demanded that the Federal Republic of

10     Yugoslavia Serbia and Montenegro immediately cease the supply of military

11     arms, equipments, and services.  And my question was:  What information,

12     if you can recall, the Security Council had received up to that point in

13     time as to what military arms, equipment, or services had already been

14     provided.

15        A.   I would like to be just as complete about this answer.

16             There is a sanctions committee at the Security Council that may

17     provide information that I would not be privy to, but the other public

18     information that has been made available to the Security Council would

19     consist of all the reports and the letters filed by member states,

20     including myself, and also the reports of the Secretary-General.  There

21     were reports of the Secretary-General that in fact indicated that there

22     was still an ongoing flow of weapons and men.  There were also letters

23     written by member states also indicating that this had been occurring.

24     There was also the report of this particular -- formal and informal

25     report of this particular Security Council investigative body that was

Page 7282

 1     established just for the purpose of this trip, and then there was the

 2     information that was submitted to the International Court of Justice.

 3             I believe this provision is also responsive to that case or to

 4     that application to the International Court of Justice.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  You mentioned the sanctions committee.  What did

 6     the sanctions committee do?  What was its job.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That question was clearly --

 8             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That is a question, clearly, that has been asked

10     and answered previously.  So the sanctions committee was discussed by

11     this witness sometime ago, I believe, it our first section.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you give us a reference?

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm trying to get there.  I'm trying to get

14     there.  I got up because I didn't want to miss the question.

15             MS. BOLTON:  While my friend's locating the reference, I just

16     want to remind the witness not too speak quickly because the court

17     reporter is transcribing.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Since I'm not finding it immediately, why don't

21     we proceed.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             You may put the question, madam.

24             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Sir, could you tell us what was the role was of the sanctions

Page 7283

 1     committee?

 2        A.   The sanctions committee generally was led by one or more members

 3     of the Security Council, one of the permanent representatives on the

 4     Security Council.  It -- it did have assistance of other staff or may

 5     have as the need required.  Of course, it dealt with the -- with an issue

 6     that was rather fluid or dynamic at the time which was what in fact

 7     sanctions were being applied, how those sanctions were being defined, in

 8     terms of their breadth and depth, and, of course, any reports as to the

 9     violation of the sanctions.

10             The work of the sanction committee was not necessarily in open

11     meetings of the Security Council.  Quite possibly it was at -- a part of

12     the Security Council's work, but it was not in open session.  And

13     generally the sanctions committee might call upon the relevant

14     representatives of member states, including myself, and/or the

15     representative of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, to provide either

16     some insight or to answer some questions or potential allegations.

17             I -- I frankly am not sure what kind of record consists of all

18     the work of the sanctions committee.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.

20             Who actually would have drafted the resolutions that proposed

21     sanctions?

22        A.   The drafting usually started with one or more countries who had a

23     like view on the position.  At that time, they might in fact engage other

24     countries to become as we use the word "sponsors."  But all the sponsors

25     generally -- generally were members of the UN Security Council.

Page 7284

 1             Because the sponsorship might be limited let's say to three,

 2     four, five, six countries, it did not mean that reflected the support for

 3     the resolution.  There would then be a separate vote where countries

 4     would say vote in favour, or would vote opposed, or would abstain.  Of

 5     course, it was a P5 member, Permanent 5 member, then a vote against would

 6     in fact be a veto and the resolution would not be adopted.

 7             So all the resolution we have in front of us were adopted by

 8     majority with potential abstentions and votes against.

 9        Q.   So you indicated there was a sanction committee that studied the

10     sanctions and you told us what work they did.  What would they do with --

11     you know, when they reached conclusions or had findings?  What would

12     happen to that information?

13        A.   Of course, there could be some dispute or at least disagreement,

14     lack of clarity, about what issues the resolution might affect.  At that

15     time, the sanctions committee might try to provide some clarity or might

16     in fact ask the UN Security Council itself to provide some clarity.  This

17     was a very delicate and rather frequent task of the diplomatic officials

18     at the United Nations.  To deal with those that they understood to be

19     involved in the work of the sanctions committee.  But that's why I think

20     we also do have so many elements -- so many times that the Security

21     Council addressing sanctions.

22        Q.   What -- what I'm not understanding, sir, is you have a committee

23     that is studying the issue of sanctions and then we have resolutions

24     adopted that impose sanctions, and I'm trying to understand what role, if

25     any, the sanctions committee has in the process of either -- of -- that

Page 7285

 1     results in the actual resolutions.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  Excuse me.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think there's a series of difficulties with the

 5     question posed, not the least of which is the witness has already

 6     informed us that information that -- that was created by the sanctions

 7     committee was, at times, given to the Security Council in his absence.

 8             So he -- I don't know whether he's really in a position

 9     foundationally to be able to speak to the question asked, since he was

10     not a member of the Security Council.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, it must have missed me that point,

12     that part of evidence.  Can you ...

13             MS. BOLTON:  I'll try to clarify.

14        Q.   What I'm trying to understand, sir, is --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is the question that is being objected to.

16             Mr. Guy-Smith says the witness told us that some of this

17     information was given to the Security Council in his absence.  I'm saying

18     that bit of evidence missed my attention --

19             MS. BOLTON:  No.  Sorry.  Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt,

20     Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Hmm.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Perhaps we should locate the portion of the

23     transcript because what I thought I understand the witness to say was

24     that the Security Council was sometimes -- this committee was sometimes

25     privy to information that he didn't -- he wasn't privy to.  So we're -- I

Page 7286

 1     think we need to find the actual --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe Mr. Guy-Smith can help us where he said the

 3     Security Council decided in his absence.  I don't know whether he said

 4     the Security Council or he said the committee.  Some of this information

 5     was given to the Security Council in his absence.  I'm saying that bit

 6     evidence missed my ...

 7             Yeah, Mr. --

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, if I might, I was taking my lead from

 9     page 88, line 22.  I would like to be just as complete about this answer.

10     "There is an sanctions committee at the Security Council that may provide

11     information that I would not be privy to."

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  So not -- not that he was absent.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I -- the -- and then further, page 90 line 17:

14     The work of the sanctions committee was not necessarily in open meetings

15     of the Security Council."

16             So I took the liberty of using the word "in his absence"

17     predicated on those two particular assertions made by the witness.

18             And if I was bold, in my --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page 90, line ...

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  17.  And if I was bold in my assertion, I do

21     apologise to the Court.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  Except that if you read that paragraph at

23     line 17 he goes on to say:

24             "Quite possibly it was at -- a part of the Security Council's

25     work, but it was not in open session.  And generally the sanctions

Page 7287

 1     committee might call upon the relevant representatives of member states,

 2     including myself, and/or the representative of the Federal Republic of

 3     Yugoslavia, to provide either some insight or to some answer some

 4     questions or potential allegations."

 5             So there does seem to be sometimes when he is actually

 6     participating in the --

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  He may well be -- and perhaps we need

 8     clarification.  That is what I understood based upon the answers that he

 9     has given.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  But now we realize that at times he was

11     there.

12             MS. BOLTON:  If I could --

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think that is it part of the difficulty that

14     presents itself in the manner in which much of this testimony has been

15     adduced because there is no date, no time, it expands a period of three

16     years.  So it leaves us in some what of a difficult position to make a

17     determination of how to even test any of this information, let alone rely

18     upon it.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, and I do think that's too detailed to

20     require a mind of a human being to remember, but if can he remember the

21     issues that he discussed in this committee, on whatever date, he can tell

22     us, can't he?

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, you know, I mean, there are many ways I can

24     respond to that.  Yes, he can.  What memory does is a whole other issue,

25     and I'm not going to have a discuss with you at this time.  Certainly

Page 7288

 1     because of the lateness of the hour, because I don't think that would be

 2     profitable.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             Madam Bolton, to the extent that we have that prior answer to

 5     the -- that question, if you are able to solicit what you can solicit

 6     within the confines of the answer that he gave, you may do so.  If you're

 7     not able to, you're not able to.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  No, I think I want to go back to the answer he gave

 9     initially just for clarification.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And we stop dead at 7.00 today.

11             MS. BOLTON:  We're stopping dead at 7.00 because Your Honour's

12     been going all day, I know.

13        Q.   So the question -- the original answer that you had given, sir,

14     you indicated there was a sanctions committee at the Security Council

15     that may provide information that I would not be privy to, but the other

16     public information made available to the Security Council would consist

17     of all the reports and letters filed, and then you continued on.

18             I just wanted to make sure that I understand, when you're saying

19     that the sanctions committee at the Security Council would provide

20     information that you may not be privy to, who were they providing that

21     information to?

22        A.   The information would be received from the UN representatives on

23     ground or other reliable sources that they feel they can rely upon, and

24     the information then would be provided to the other members of the UN

25     Security Council in preparation for votes on these types of resolutions

Page 7289

 1     or presidential statements.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  I'm going to end questioning there for the day, sir.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you end your questioning, ma'am, what do we

 5     do with 65 ter 5003?

 6             MS. BOLTON:  We could tender it now.  I will be coming back to

 7     it, but I don't know if it's possible -- I am going to be coming back to

 8     actual report at a later date, but as for this exhibit is it possible to

 9     just have the first pages 2, 3, and 4 filed?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would ask that we tender the entire report at

11     this time because it is going to be a subject matter of some

12     conversation.  It makes more sense to have the entire report in under the

13     document --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How many pages is the report?

15             MS. BOLTON:  There is no issue that the whole report will be put

16     before you, it was just for clarification of the record.  I think the

17     whole report is -- I have to locate it, Your Honours.  It's not that

18     long, it is ...

19                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, I've got an answer.  The

21     report, 65 ter 5003 is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

22     number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

24     Exhibit P2462.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 7290

 1             Mr. Sacirbey, I know I mentioned this to you yesterday.  I'm

 2     duty-bound to mention it to you again.  You are reminded that you may not

 3     talk to anybody during the time that the -- during the adjournment about

 4     the case, and until you are excused from testifying.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS:  I understand, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now the case stands adjourned again until

 9     tomorrow, half past 2.00 in the afternoon, same venue, Courtroom II.

10             Court adjourned.

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Wednesday the 17th day of

13                           June, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.