Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7291

 1                           Wednesday, 17 June, 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.40 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon Your Honours.  This is case number

 8     IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             May we have the appearances for today, starting with the

11     Prosecution.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, Your Honour, it's Lorna Bolton, Mark Harmon,

13     and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.

15             And for the Defence.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon.  Daniela Tasic, Chad Mair,

17     Milos Androvic, Kay Marshall, Novak Lukic, and I'm Gregor Guy-Smith on

18     behalf of Mr. Perisic.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.  Before we

20     start, just for the record, we sit in pursuant to Rule 15 bis this

21     afternoon.  Judge David is finish in Lukic and Lukic trying to finish up

22     before the other judge leaves the Tribunal.

23             Madam Bolton, will you call your witness, please.

24             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  Mr. Sacirbey, good afternoon or good morning

25     to you.

Page 7292

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to you, Mr. Sacirbey.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  I was looking for a witness in court

 4     here, that's why I said call your witness, I forgot you were far away.

 5     Mr. Sacirbey, just to remind you that you are still bound by the

 6     declaration you made on the beginning of your testimony to tell the

 7     truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness testified by videolink]

10             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, and I remain close to those words,

11     Your Honour.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             It has come to the notice of the Chamber that the room you are in

14     is very warm and that, at some stage, you might prefer to take off your

15     jacket, we will understand.

16             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour I understand that it's very important

17     to try to get through all the material and give Defence counsel the

18     opportunity for cross, so I have tried to endeavour to go through this

19     even under some rather stuffy conditions here.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

21             THE WITNESS:  In the interest of justice, I hope you will allow

22     that.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you want to take off your jacket feel free.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 7293

 1             Madam Bolton.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 3                           Examination by Ms. Bolton:  [Continued]

 4        Q.   Sir, I'm going start today by just clarifying a few things that

 5     you've said in your testimony to date, and just want to remind you at the

 6     outset of the need for you to be succinct in your answers as we have a

 7     great deal of material to cover.  Okay?

 8        A.   Thank you.  Yes.

 9        Q.   Sir, on the first day of your evidence and this is at page 7148

10     of the transcript, you referred to something you called UN TV?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   What does UN TV broadcast?

13        A.   Of course I can mostly speak from the time when I was at the

14     United Nations as ambassador.  It would tend to have sometimes

15     independent broadcasting including panels, but most critically, I believe

16     to what we have testified to, it would broadcast all the meetings of the

17     UN Security Council and the General Assembly.

18        Q.   And when you say all the meetings, are we talking about the

19     public meetings or the private consultations you've discussed or both?

20        A.   We are only speaking of public meetings, and I can only say all

21     to the extent that I am aware.  Of course there may be situations that

22     I'm unaware of where that did not occur.

23        Q.   So did you physically have to be in the either the Security

24     Council Chamber or the General Assembly Chamber to be keeping track of

25     the proceedings?

Page 7294

 1        A.   No, you did not.  And frequently, I actually might keep track of

 2     these proceedings from my offices, that is the BiH mission to the

 3     United Nations.

 4        Q.   Turning to a different issue, sir, when I was asking you

 5     questions at page 7149 of the transcript about the arms embargo and --

 6     imposed by Resolution 713, you told us that Bosnia had been deemed to be

 7     subject to it, and I neglected to ask if anyone else was also subject to

 8     that order?

 9        A.   Yes, the entire territory of the former Yugoslavia ultimately was

10     deemed to be subject to it as it was a transitional situation.  The first

11     reference was to Yugoslavia.  Subsequent references seemed to expand its

12     application to the entire territory of the former Yugoslavia.

13        Q.   Thank you.  On another issue sir, or related issue, if I could

14     ask you to turn to the binder from 1993, I think will have tab 21 in it.

15     This is 65 ter 8820.  Sorry, it's the very last document in that tab that

16     contains several other documents.

17        A.   The Registrar is helping me here.

18        Q.   Do you have the document in front of you now?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   It should be a document titled letter dated 22nd April, 1993 from

21     the "Charge d'affair of the Permanent Mission of Yugoslavia," is that the

22     right document, sir?

23        A.   Yes, I have that.

24        Q.   And yesterday in the context of discussing the fact that there

25     were sometimes calls for the lifting of the arms embargo, and reaction

Page 7295

 1     from the FRY, is this an example of such a letter, sir?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.  The letter refers, once again, an attempt was made,

 3     obviously implying that it was numerous.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be tendered as the next exhibit,

 5     please, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 7     given an exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

 9     Exhibit P2463.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             Madam Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

13        Q.   You also gave evidence yesterday, sir, and this was at page 31 of

14     the provisional transcript, that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia's

15     mission sometimes made written responses to the Special Rapporteur's

16     reports, and I wonder if Mr. Haider could assist, please, by giving you

17     the 1994 binder.  It may be the same binder.

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   Should be tab E, please.

20        A.   What I have in front of me is, in fact, the 5 August, 1994

21     report, "Commission on human rights."

22        Q.   Sorry, the document I'm looking at as a title "Note Verbale,"

23     midway down the page, dated 28th July, 1994.  Sorry it's 65 ter 8835.

24             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] We have 8835 here.  And that's the

25     5th, August, 1994.

Page 7296

 1             MS. BOLTON:

 2        Q.   Okay.  That's the date, and midway through the page, the first

 3     page, sir?

 4        A.   Ms. Bolton you are now breaking up, I could not hear that very

 5     well.

 6        Q.   I'll try speaking closer to the microphone, is that of any

 7     assistance?

 8        A.   I believe it is.  We are getting interference.  That's like a --

 9     not a buzz but it's like a beep, and it seems that it's coming from your

10     end, we've been able to ascertain.  It's gone now.

11        Q.   It's gone now?

12        A.   Yeah, it seems to be gone.  Thank you.  If you don't mind

13     repeating your question, we did not hear you.

14        Q.   I'm just waiting for the Registrar to finish with the binder?

15             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] We are on 65 ter 08835,

16     Ms. Bolton.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Are you on the first page of that document?

18        A.   We were, and it's again Note Verbale.

19        Q.   It's titled "Note Verbale," dated 28th July 1994 from the

20     permanent mission of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  And if you could turn the page, please.

23        A.   Yes, I'm on page 2.

24        Q.   And you will see at the top of the page there's another title,

25     and it should indicate comments of the government of the Federal Republic

Page 7297

 1     of Yugoslavia on the sixth periodic report on the situation of human

 2     rights, I'm summarising now, submitted by Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki; is that

 3     correct, sir?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   And if you would -- first, is this an example of the kind of

 6     document or written response that you were referring to in your testimony

 7     yesterday?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9        Q.   Looking at paragraph 1, there's an indication that they are

10     including or attaching as part of their comments --

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, at this time I'm going to object to

12     the Prosecution -- I'm getting phenomenal sound in my ears.  I don't know

13     if anybody else got that.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are all there.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Feedback, yes.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I hope that didn't happen at the New York end.

17     I'm going to object to the Prosecution reading this document.  If there

18     is a question to be posed at this point, the Prosecution is describing

19     what the document is and the previous question that -- if this was an

20     example of the kinds of documents that Mr. Sacirbey had seen, I don't

21     know whether or not this is a way of avoiding some of the strictures of

22     the guide-lines with regard to guide-line 27 or not, whether there's some

23     other intent here with regard to what the Prosecution is doing.  But at

24     this point, I would make the objection basically on the grounds of

25     leading and testifying.

Page 7298

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour, what I wish to do is to direct

 2     the witness to a portion of the report, read the portion, and then I have

 3     a question about the passage I'm going to be asking about and just

 4     directing the witness to something that's written in the report.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With that as an understanding, then I'll withdraw

 6     my objection.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             MS. BOLTON:

 9        Q.   Sir, what I was going to direct your attention to is that partway

10     down the first paragraph, the -- there's an indication that also attached

11     are the comments on the part of the report on Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And it

12     says paragraphs 5 to 79 of the government of the Republic of Srpska,

13     which I know I didn't pronounce correctly, and my question is, sorry,

14     I'll just have you confirm if you would, if you would turn to page 15 of

15     the document, there should be a section there which says, is titled:

16     Comments of the government of Srpska on aspects of - and I'm

17     summarising - the sixth periodic report.  My question for you is whether

18     the Republic Srpska had the right to circulate documents to the Security

19     Council?

20        A.   The government of the Republic of Srpska did not have recognition

21     and did not have the right to circulate any documents within the

22     United Nations.  They may have obviously had the opportunity to

23     communicate with Mazowiecki and other officials of the United Nations on

24     the ground.

25        Q.   Under the United Nations protocols, procedures, and rules, was

Page 7299

 1     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia under any obligation to --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, I apologise.  I now cannot hear Ms. Bolton

 4     through the earphones.  I can hear Mr. Sacirbey through the earphones,

 5     but I can't hear the questions as they are being made.  I can read it,

 6     but I can't hear it but there's a some kind of a disconnect.  I don't

 7     know if anybody else is having the same problem, and now I'm getting the

 8     other lovely sound.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My problem is of a different nature, I hear

10     Madam Bolton not with the earphones very loudly and I don't hear Mr.

11     Sacirbey at all.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We seem to be having a technical conundrum.  I

13     don't know if there is a way of fixing this or not.

14             MS. BOLTON:  I suggest we break.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's take a short adjournment and see if the

16     technicians can help us.

17             Mr. Sacirbey can you say something?  Let's see if we can hear

18     you.

19             THE WITNESS:  One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,

20     and --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can hear you now.  Although there's still the

22     background noise.  Madam Bolton, can you say something.

23             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] This is the Registrar, we don't

24     have any backgrounds noise at the moment.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, it looks like you've transferred your

Page 7300

 1     problem to us which you had with the last two days, now we have the

 2     background noise now.

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] Sincerest apologies for that,

 4     Judge.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  A, B, C, D, E, F, G.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, I hear you there with the background.

 7             Mr. Guy-Smith.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could you continue your alphabet, please.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  I don't know the rest of.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could you do it again.

11             MS. BOLTON:  A, B, C, D, E, F, no?

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't hear.  Fortunately, I can read lips.

13     I've tried it at loud, soft.  I've done all of that.  Do you mind trying

14     one more time, my apology.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Sure.  We are testing 1, 2, 3, here on this end.

16     Nothing?  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey, we are having problems.  Is there another

17     set of headphones, Mr. Guy-Smith, could try.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm happy to try that.

19             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sure this is going to be a very interesting

20     transcript for someone to read where I'm reciting the alphabet.  Any

21     luck?  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.  I should note that Mr. Harmon was having

22     some problems with his headphones and hearing Mr. Guy-Smith.  I don't

23     know if that problem is resolved.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Now, I'm hearing one of the interpreters in the

25     background which is a gentleman, I believe, is speaking Serbian.  But I

Page 7301

 1     did not hear Ms. Bolton.  This is somewhat like a Philip Glass

 2     composition, I think.  It's very abstract, but I guess there's some music

 3     involved here.  If you would be so kind again.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Is that any better?

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Again please.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Something coming through at all?  Sorry, am I coming

 7     through at all?

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm hearing your voice.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Not through the head phones.  I seldom have the

10     complaint, certainly not at home, that people can't hear me.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's try Mr. Sacirbey.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Microphone not activated] ... I'm lucky as it is

13     in that people can hear me at home, but here my voice drops.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's see if we can hear Mr. Sacirbey.

15             THE WITNESS:  Give me the opportunity just to make sure the

16     pronunciation of my name is correct, which is Mr. Sacirbey.  Think of

17     being shocked, Mr. Sacirbey.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sacirbey.  Thank you very much, Mr. Sacirbey, my

19     apologies for mispronouncing it.

20             THE WITNESS:  I take no offence.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You are very kind.  I can hear

22     him very clearly, and I don't have any background noise.  I'm happy.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I can hear Mr. Sacirbey perfectly.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you are still lip reading Madam Bolton.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, I'm still lip reading Ms. Bolton.

Page 7302

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you want to carry on lip reading?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'll give it a go.  I'll try and see if it works.

 3     I'll try and see.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Madam Bolton, sorry about that

 5     interruption.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Yes, thank you, sir.  The question I was by asking was whether

 8     under a United Nations rules, protocols, and procedures, whether the

 9     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was under any obligation to include the

10     RS's comments in its response to the Special Rapporteur?

11        A.   It was not.

12        Q.   I'd like to go back to discussing the resolution we were

13     discussing at the end of yesterday's session, which was Resolution 819,

14     and you should find that in tab 15F of, I think, the same a binder.

15             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] Could Ms. Bolton please repeat --

16             THE WITNESS:  819 of the Security Council.  We did have it before

17     so ...

18             MS. BOLTON:

19        Q.   Sorry, it may cause you confusion in that the front page, if you

20     will recall, is the report on Resolution 819, it's a letter of

21     transmittal, 65 ter -- sorry, now, it's Exhibit --

22        A.   We have that.  We have that, Ms. Bolton.

23        Q.   And exhibit number is 2462, I believe.  And it was, you'll

24     recall, the second page onward of that document.  Okay.  So the final

25     aspect I want to discuss with you, sir, is numbered paragraph 1 on page

Page 7303

 1     3, and that's the part where the Security Council demands that all

 2     parties and others concerned treat Srebrenica and its surroundings as a

 3     safe area which should be free from any armed attack or any other hostile

 4     act.  I want to ask first who sponsored this resolution, if you recall,

 5     or this aspect of the resolution, if you recall?

 6        A.   If I remember correctly, it had significant support including

 7     from Ambassador Diego Arria, of Venezuela to the French ambassador to the

 8     United Nations, Jean Bernard Merrimee.  I believe as would probably -- if

 9     we had the resolution in front of us, we would see it had very wide

10     support at that time.

11        Q.   When you are talking about support, is that the same as saying

12     that they sponsored it or proposed it?

13        A.   Ms. Bolton, I am afraid I don't remember exactly the -- all the

14     countries that sponsored it, but I do remember there were many countries

15     that did, and that it certainly had very wide support, other resolutions,

16     of course, were more contentious.

17        Q.   What was Bosnia-Herzegovina's position on this resolution?

18        A.   We felt that -- we, that is the mission of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

19     under the instructions of the government in Sarajevo, believed that we

20     needed to do everything and anything that we could to stop the killing at

21     that time, to stop the attack upon the city, and we supported it

22     urgently.

23        Q.   You've told us that your thinking was that this would help, I

24     guess, stop the killing, and that is why you supported it, were there

25     other rationales advanced in the -- well, first, did you raise that issue

Page 7304

 1     in the Security Council discussions, either the consultations or any

 2     public discussions?

 3        A.   Yes, we did.  Most importantly we raised the issue, of course, in

 4     the letters that we forwarded to the president of the Security Council,

 5     and in various informal meetings that we had with Security Council

 6     members including the none-allying group, which Mr. Diego -- Ambassador

 7     Diego Arria was a member of.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do apologise, Ms. Bolton, but I, perhaps, am

 9     behind both you and Mr. Sacirbey with regard to the question, which is

10     the issue at hand being, the resolution itself or the killings that were

11     occurring.  There are two potential issues that existed with regard to

12     the questions you asked.  I'm not clear as to which issue you are

13     referring to.

14             MS. BOLTON:  I'll clarify.

15        Q.   My last question wasn't well worded, sir.  You've told us what

16     your rationale was for being in favour of this resolution, and what I

17     intended to ask with my last question was whether you shared your

18     reasoning with the Security Council members?

19        A.   Ms. Bolton, the concern about the safety and the condition of the

20     Srebrenica citizens and the other refugees in the area was the primary

21     concern, and I think it was, and I'm quite certain it was also the

22     concern of most of those who supported this resolution, and who, in fact,

23     were involved in the debate, as we call it, in the United Nations

24     regarding this resolution.

25        Q.   Other than the rationale concerning the safety and condition of

Page 7305

 1     the citizens of Srebrenica, were any other rationales advanced in the

 2     Security Council in support of this resolution?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  By who?  The question, By who?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  I'm going to answer my friend's question.  My

 6     question is open on purpose in that I'm asking if anyone was putting

 7     forward any other rationale for this resolution?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I.e., members of the Security Council, I suppose.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, if any other rationales were advanced.

10             THE WITNESS:  Ms. Bolton, I'm unaware of any other rationale that

11     rose to the level of anything similar to the first priority.

12             MS. BOLTON:

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Could I ask that we move into closed session,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Please.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7306











11 Page 7306 redacted. Private session.















Page 7307

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             MS. BOLTON:

14        Q.   One of the issues that we were discussing in our conversation

15     yesterday was the fact that there had been a delay of voting on a

16     proposed resolution to strengthen sanctions, and yesterday, you

17     identified for us that draft resolution.  My question is, was there

18     eventually a vote held with respect to resolution to strengthen sanctions

19     against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

20        A.   Yes, there was.

21        Q.   Could I ask you to turn to the next exhibit in your binder, which

22     should be tab H, and that's Prosecution Exhibit 209, Resolution 820.  Do

23     you have that document before you, sir?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   At the bottom of the first page, sir, there is a paragraph that

Page 7308

 1     begins with the words:

 2             "Expressing its condemnation of all the activities carried out in

 3     violation of Resolutions 757 (1992) and 787 (1992), between the territory

 4     of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Serbian Montenegro, and Serb

 5     controlled areas in the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia

 6     and Herzegovina."

 7             And then continuing on to -- if you turn the page, we are

 8     followed by a reference on the next page at paragraph 3 to the fact that

 9     there has been a refusal by the Bosnian Serb party to accept an agreement

10     on interim arrangements and the provisional provincial map.  What is that

11     agreement and provisional provincial map a reference to?

12        A.   The Vance-Owen Peace Plan.

13        Q.   The --

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, before you go any further, just for

15     purposes of the record, it's a refusal by the Bosnian Serb party to

16     accept not "an" but "the," in its, initial caps, Agreement on; initial

17     cap, Interim; initial cap, Arrangements.  So it's identifying a very

18     specific and particular document, which doesn't show up in the record.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  My friend has correctly read out the

20     text.

21        Q.   We'll call it the meat of the resolution seems to start on

22     paragraph B on page 3, which it preceded by the words, "Determined to

23     strengthen the implementation of the measures imposed by its earlier

24     relevant resolutions."  And then there's a whole series of paragraphs

25     that followed.  The contents of the actual sanctions that are imposed, I

Page 7309

 1     don't wish to go into any great detail, but can you just tell us very

 2     briefly first, who are they aimed at?

 3        A.   They are aimed at ... [Overlapping speakers]

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If ever there was an ... [Overlapping speakers]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If ever there was an example of best evidence,

 7     this certainly is one.  You have the resolution before you.  The resident

 8     motion is clear on its face.  There's no need for the witness to tell us

 9     what the the resolution says, to interpret it, or to read or become a

10     reader with regard to its impact, its purpose, or the object of the

11     sanctions contained therein.

12             MS. BOLTON:  That's fine, Your Honour.  I can move on to my next

13     question.

14        Q.   Could you turn to paragraph 31, sir.

15        A.   I'm there.

16        Q.   Before you go -- we go on to paragraph 31, why was there a need

17     to strengthen the sanctions?

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, excuse me, objection.  This particular --

19             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, I will re-word the question.

20        Q.   Based on the discussions that you were privy to, are you able to

21     indicate what was discussed in terms of the perceived need to strengthen

22     the sanctions?

23        A.   The failure --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  This is now calling for a particular

Page 7310

 1     interpretation --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I don't hear you now, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Can you hear me now?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can hear you now.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Is that coming through the microphone,

 6     Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, you are coming directly.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm coming directly.  Okay.  Well, I have an

 9     objection, and my objection is that this is now calling for a particular

10     interpretation by the witness as to the perceived need.  The witness can

11     testify as to facts, if there are facts that he is aware of.  But now we

12     are getting into an interpretation of discussions as opposed to the facts

13     that were discussed, and he is, therefore, rendering an opinion.  He has

14     not been qualified for those purposes, and it is inappropriate for him to

15     testify in that fashion.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Well, I was an eye-witness to the discussions,

18     Your Honour, and I'm asking him to tell us what was proposed, what were

19     the context of those discussions.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess, Madam Bolton, the objection is the use of

21     the word -- is against the use of the word perceived.  Maybe if the

22     question was:  Based on the discussions that you were privy to, are you

23     able to indicate what was discussed in terms of the need to strengthen

24     the sanctions?

25             MS. BOLTON:

Page 7311

 1        Q.   Could you answer His Honour's question, Mr. Sacirbey, please.

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honour, there was undoubtedly a consensus that the Pale

 3     Serbs had, in fact, failed to accept the peace agreement.  There was a

 4     discussion, to what extent either as a direct party or a direct party

 5     Belgrade, in fact, was also responsible for not accepting that peace

 6     agreement.  A direct party in the sense that they, in fact, would have

 7     actually been there to directly encourage, if you would, or direct the

 8     Pale Serbs to sign, indirect to the extent that they continued to support

 9     the Pale Serbs in view of their failure to accept what was then perceived

10     as a huge chance for peace.

11        Q.   And looking at the text of paragraph 31, sir, under what

12     circumstance did you understand the measures against Federal Republic of

13     Yugoslavia would be lifted?

14        A.   At such time that Belgrade and/or Pale, in fact, did accept the

15     peace plan.

16             MS. BOLTON:  I see it is 3.30, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We still have four minutes.

18             MS. BOLTON:  I'm done with this document and about to move on to

19     another one, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which will take you beyond the four minutes.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.  Court

23     adjourned.

24                           --- Recess taken at 3.27 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

Page 7312

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  I think we've worked out our technical

 3     difficulties.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

 5             MS. BOLTON:

 6        Q.   Sir, if we could ask you to turn in you binder to tab 15IJ,

 7     please.  And this is --

 8        A.   We are there, Ms. Bolton.

 9        Q.   This is exhibit already -- Defence Exhibit 31 in these

10     proceedings.  You should have before you Resolution 821, Exhibit 31.

11        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.

12        Q.   Yes, sir, this is resolution, I'll direct you to a couple of

13     passages.  It recalls on the first page Resolutions 757, which was the

14     resolution and -- sorry, Resolution 777, which then goes on to say was

15     the resolution that decided that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

16     Serbia Montenegro, should apply for membership in the United Nations and

17     that it shall not participate in the work of the General Assembly.

18             And then turning the page, this resolution goes on at numbered

19     paragraph 1 to reaffirm that principle that it can't continue

20     automatically the membership of the Socialist Federal Republic, and the

21     portion I want to ask you about is that it then goes on it recommend that

22     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia not participate in the work of the

23     Economic and Social Council.  What is the work of the Economic and Social

24     Council?

25        A.   It is one of the more important bodies of the United Nations.  It

Page 7313

 1     relates to economic, social, and, frankly, sometimes also political

 2     considerations; and, at that time, there was a issue as to whether or not

 3     that was covered under Resolution 777.

 4        Q.   And how would it affect a state to be excluded from the work of

 5     the Economic and Social Council?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, that is outside of the ken of this

 8     particular witness's testimony.  He is not an expert.  He a fact witness.

 9     He is now being asked to comment on how something would effect the state,

10     which requires a particular kind of expertise and opinion -- improper

11     opinion testimony.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

13             MS. BOLTON:  I'm asking for the witness to clarify.  I can reword

14     it.  What advantages, based on his observations and the knowledge of the

15     work that is done by the Economic and Social Council, there may be to

16     having an ability to participate in that work.  That's not asking for an

17     opinion, Your Honour.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It's a thinly disguised attempt to not ask for an

19     opinion, but it's still asking for an opinion.  If it says, What

20     advantages, you know, that makes -- there's a determination made by the

21     witness as to what is an advantage, as to what is not.  It's also --

22     there's -- well, I'll stop there for a minutes, because I know you don't

23     like it when I sequentially engage in objections, I'm going to stop for a

24     minute.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What I don't understand, Mr. Guy-Smith, is this is

Page 7314

 1     based on observations and knowledge of the work of this commission or

 2     council because he been working -- I suppose because he has been working

 3     closely with it.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't think we've had -- but then we have a

 5     lack of foundation.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

 7             MS. BOLTON:

 8        Q.   Are you familiar with the work that is done by the Economic and

 9     Social Council, sir?

10        A.   Yes, I am.

11        Q.   Did you have the opportunity while you worked there to -- no,

12     that's my foundation question, Your Honour.  I don't intend to ask

13     another one.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Then, sir, based on your familiarity with the work that's done,

17     your observations, what advantages -- my friend.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Same objection.  Based upon his familiarity, what

20     advantages requires an opinion on his part.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But it also --

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If he is being qualified as an expert on the

23     functions of the United Nations, if that is what is being sought here,

24     then let's pronounce that as what is going on.  If that's not what is

25     going on, then he shouldn't be answering these kinds of questions.  And

Page 7315

 1     so far, I've allowed a fair amount to go on, but we've been pretty far

 2     afield.

 3             THE WITNESS:  You were, maybe I can help --

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, there's an objection pending.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.  Mr. Sacirbey, when an

 6     objection is being dealt with by the Court, you, as a witness, are

 7     supposed to keep quiet until the objection is resolved.  And, then of

 8     course, counsel will direct himself or herself to you.

 9             Madam Bolton, I don't know whether you want to lay further

10     foundations for this question that you want to raise or you want to deal

11     with it some other way.  It's up to you.

12             MS. BOLTON:

13        Q.   Maybe you could give us some examples of the kind of work that

14     the Economic and Social Council does?

15        A.   Ms. Bolton, I hope I will be responsive.  Within the United

16     Nations work, there are various groupings, including something called the

17     Eastern European Group, and the Eastern European Group will, then in

18     fact, have several of its member that will be privileged to directly

19     participate, that is to be a member of the Economic and Social Council.

20             Some other reasons that this resolution, in fact, came up that

21     there was some understanding that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

22     might even, in fact, become a candidate for the Economic and Social

23     Council.  There was also, of course, a view that, in fact, it would

24     participate in other ways in the work of the Economic and Social Council,

25     and, in fact, that this was already prohibited under Resolution 777; but

Page 7316

 1     to the extent that that was lacking in clarity, and there was -- there

 2     was a view that Resolution 777 was intentionally ambiguous that, in fact,

 3     this particular point was to drive that ambiguity out of the question.

 4     So that, in fact, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia would not be able to

 5     participate in all the economic -- particularly economic and other social

 6     political considerations of the work of the work of ECOSOC Council.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey - I see Mr. Guy-Smith is on his

 8     feet - but, yes, you are right, you were not responsive to the question.

 9     The question was:  Could you give some examples of the work that the

10     Economic and Social Council does.  If you can just tabulate two, three,

11     four, or whatever number that you can remember of the kind of things that

12     it provided or the work that it did.  But before you do so,

13     Mr. Guy-Smith.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Now, Your Honour has guided the witness.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just don't hear you.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry.  I said, Now, Your Honour, Your Honour

17     has guided the witness, I was going to be making a different kind of

18     suggestion, but I'm satisfied and there's no reason to go any further.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             Okay, Mr. Sacirbey.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  As an example, the issue might

22     have to deal with regional economic concerns.  That is, some issues of

23     development.  Development was a particularly big issue within the

24     Economic and Social Council.  That is economic development or something

25     related to economic development.  It may also have sometimes to do with

Page 7317

 1     the condition of particular population groups.  I believe those are

 2     probably the best examples that I can provide right now.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Sacirbey.

 4             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no more questions on that exhibit,

 7     Your Honour.  I did neglect earlier in the proceedings we were discussing

 8     65 ter 8835, and I apparently neglected to ask that it be tendered as an

 9     exhibit?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  8835?

11             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, this was before the break, early on, and it was

12     the Note Verbale we were discussing from the permanent mission of the

13     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  65 ter 8835, madam, is

15     admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2464, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

18             MS. BOLTON:

19        Q.   Sir, sorry for the interruption, if you could turn now, please,

20     to tab 15K, you should have the full report of the Security Council

21     mission.  The full report is 65 ter 5003 of the, sorry, Security Council

22     mission, pursuant to Resolution 819.  Do you have that document, sir?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   I want to direct you to certain passages of this document, sir.

25     If you could turn to page 5.

Page 7318

 1        A.   I believe I'm there.

 2        Q.   Before I go too far, I should ask what the mandate of this

 3     mission was?

 4        A.   It was one that, in fact, was given by the United Nations

 5     Security Council as a whole to obviously go to the specific locations

 6     within Bosnia, but also in the region.  And the mission, in fact, did

 7     visit Zagreb, did visit Bosnia-Herzegovina, and actually did also stop in

 8     Belgrade.  And then, of course, to report to the Security Council as a

 9     whole and potentially provide recommendations.

10        Q.   Okay.  And the composition of the mission, who was part of the

11     mission?

12        A.   I believe we had the list from before --

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  We seem to be falling

14     back into the same problems again here.  The document has been admitted.

15     The evidence of who was complemented -- complements the mission is in the

16     document.  Best evidence is before us.  There is no purpose in having

17     Mr. Sacirbey be a reader unless it's for the purpose of attempting to

18     enhance his credibility.  But otherwise, it is absolutely irrelevant for

19     this particular witness to be engaging in this particular function.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess it's only repetitive, not irrelevant.  It

21     is Exhibit P2462, you are aware, madam?  65 ter 5003.

22             MS. BOLTON:  I am sorry, you are right.  Yes, thank you,

23     Your Honour.  That's the correct document.  In terms of my friend's

24     objection, I'm trying to not to lead the witness because when I put to

25     him the names of the witness, or I refer the witness to it, he has been

Page 7319

 1     objecting on the basis that I'm leading, and if I don't, he is objecting

 2     on the basis that it's the best evidence.  So I can't win one way or

 3     another, but I'll now go to my second way of dealing with it which is to

 4     suggest that the list of people who were part of the mission can be found

 5     on the first page of this document.

 6        Q.   Would you agree with that Mr. Sacirbey?

 7        A.   Yes, I would, Ms. Bolton.

 8        Q.   One of the members was from Russia?

 9        A.   That is correct.  I actually should point out for the Court that

10     I actually flew with this mission to Zagreb itself.

11        Q.   In terms of political loyalties or alliances in the Security

12     Council, are you able to comment on where Russia's loyalties typically

13     lay?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. --

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think that question is highly improper.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't hear you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  Is there

17     something wrong with my connection to Mr. Guy-Smith's microphone?

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I said, I believe that the question is highly

19     improper, but --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you going to tell us why it's improper.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, it calls for an opinion for which there is

22     no foundation.  It involves a form of speculation for which there is no

23     foundation, and it takes it -- it places in question an entire can of

24     play of considerations for which this witness has no information we've

25     been presently told about as of yet.

Page 7320

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the question is are you able to comment on

 2     where Russia's loyalties -- Madam Bolton.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Loyalties to what?  Loyalties to --

 4             MS. BOLTON:  I can rephrase.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  She's going to rephrase.

 6             MS. BOLTON:

 7        Q.   Sir, based on your observations of dealings with the Security

 8     Council, both the public meetings and your knowledge of the informal

 9     consultations that took place, when matters pertaining to the conflict in

10     Bosnia arose, who did Russia typically support in those discussions,

11     whose views?

12        A.   Well, I believe --

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  Excuse me.  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.

14             That assumes, among other things, facts that are not in evidence

15     with regard to views to be taken.  It seems to me that what is occurring

16     now is Mr. Sacirbey is being used by the Prosecution as an interpreter of

17     the debate of the conflict between 1992 and 1995, which is not an

18     appropriate function for this particular witness.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me just say that as I understand ...

20     [Microphone not activated].

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not on the microphone.  Sorry, can I repeat

23     myself?  Rather let me ask you, Madam Bolton, to respond to that

24     objection.  Maybe --

25             MS. BOLTON:  I'm asking the witness for his observations.  He is

Page 7321

 1     a fact witness.  I'm not asking him to interpret anything.  I'm asking

 2     him to tell us when issues arose, who did -- what views did Russia take

 3     and how did those compare to the views taken or expressed by other

 4     countries.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What are you talking about a specific topic that

 6     was being discussed, specific meeting, specific incident?

 7             MS. BOLTON:  No, I'm asking globally what matters.  My questions

 8     were to global matters pertaining as the conflict in Bosnia arose.  And

 9     my question was:  "Who did Russia typically support in those discussions,

10     whose views?"

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think the objection is overruled.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Could you answer my question, please?

14        A.   Yes, Ms. Bolton.  The delegation, first of all, I believe, was

15     representative of the full spectrum, and second of all --

16             MS. BOLTON:  I'm not hearing anything.  Was I the only person

17     that couldn't hear anything.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I could hear.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey, if you could start again.

21     Madam Bolton didn't hear you.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Again, in effort to be responsive, I believe

23     the delegation represented a spectrum of sympathies.  And number two,

24     Russia certainly was most sympathetic to the objections that Belgrade

25     authority -- especially as it applied to the issue of sanctions.

Page 7322

 1             MS. BOLTON:

 2        Q.   If I could ask you to turn the page again then, sir, to where we

 3     were to page 5.  There's a heading "Situation on the ground," a

 4     subheading "Srebrenica," and I want to read a few passages or refer you

 5     to a couple of passages.  And then have some questions for you, okay?

 6        A.   Okay.

 7        Q.   Looking first, sir, at paragraph 7, reads:

 8             "Srebrenica, which used to be a spa resort today has a population

 9     of approximately 20 to 28.000 people, of whom between 8.000 and 10.000

10     are locals.  The rest are displaced persons from surrounding villages

11     that were destroyed by Serbs.  The whole enclave today holds 70.000

12     people."

13             And then continuing at paragraph 12:

14             "Before the agreement of 18 April, 1993, the town had been under

15     intense shelling.  It was surrounded and totally isolated.  The situation

16     forced the local Srebrenica authorities to agree to a settlement by which

17     only the Muslim side was to disarm under the supervision of UNPROFOR.

18     That agreement was subsequently concluded by the Bosnian commander,

19     General Halilovic at Sarajevo."

20             Continuing at paragraph 14:

21             "The council should note that when it was discussing Resolution

22     819 (1993 ), it did not know that negotiations involving the force

23     commander of UNPROFOR had been taking place and that UNPROFOR had

24     participated actively in the drafting and in the process of convincing

25     the Bosnian commander to sign the agreement.  The alternative could have

Page 7323

 1     been a massacre of 25.000 people."

 2             Continuing at paragraph 16:

 3             "Srebrenica arrangement cannot be a model but should inspire

 4     action by the Security Council to prevent the fall of further enclaves

 5     and territories such as Gorazde, Zepa, and Tuzla, which demands immediate

 6     action.  We know enough today about the conditions prevailing in these

 7     towns, notwithstanding Dr. Karadzic's assurance to the mission that his

 8     forces would not attack Gorazde or Tuzla."

 9             Finally continuing at paragraph 17:

10             "There's no doubt that had this agreement not been reached, most

11     probably a massacre would have taken place..."

12             My first question for you, sir, is:  Are the facts that I've read

13     to you consistent with your understanding, firstly, of the agreement --

14     sorry, let me rephrase.  Were you aware of this agreement concluded by

15     General Halilovic?

16        A.   Only subsequent to the vote of the Security Council.  We knew

17     there were discussions going at different levels, Ms. Bolton.

18        Q.   And could you tell me, in terms of this report, to whom -- who

19     would have received copies of this report, sir, within the UN context?

20        A.   I believe this document was made a document of the Security

21     Council, and, therefore, it would have been, once again, available it to

22     all member states of the United Nations as well as the Federal Republic

23     of Yugoslavia, Serbian Montenegro.

24        Q.   Did anyone from your mission or to your knowledge, your

25     government, have any influence over the contents of this report?

Page 7324

 1        A.   I don't believe that would be accurate.  As I said, I flew with

 2     the mission to Zagreb, the mission flew thereafter on its own and came

 3     back on its own and on authored this report on its own without my input.

 4        Q.   How many missions had the Security Council established of this

 5     nature prior to this one?

 6        A.   This was a rather unprecedented situation, and in my experience,

 7     it was the first one that I had seen at that time, in my experience.

 8        Q.   Can you comment on how much attention this report was given

 9     within the UN context, either the General Assembly, the Security Council,

10     or even in formal discussions between countries?

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Once again the wide language of the question is

12     what causes me concern:  How many attention, as compared to what?  There

13     are no standards that allow for an answer upon which this Trial Chamber

14     can make a reasoned decision in terms of what is being discussed.  How

15     much attention?  It's a meaningless question.

16             MS. BOLTON:  I'll rephrase.

17        Q.   Was this report the subjects of discussions, sir, in the UN

18     context?

19        A.   Yes, it was, Ms. Bolton.  And it continued to be for several

20     weeks and months.

21        Q.   And can you comment on whether there was any press coverage of

22     this report?

23        A.   Yes, there was, Ms. Bolton.

24        Q.   How long was the press coverage for?

25        A.   It was extensive and for several days at least.  The debate on

Page 7325

 1     the issue of safe areas, as you know, continued for several months.

 2     Actually, I believe for at least another month.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Brief indulgence.

 4        Q.   I'm going to turn to a separate topic now, sir.  I'd like you to

 5     look at tabs -- first tab L in your binder.  And this is 65 ter 8823, I

 6     believe.

 7        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.

 8        Q.   And that should be a letter dated the 4th of May, 1993, from the

 9     permanent representative of Bosnia; is that correct?

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   And it purports, at the bottom, to be signed by yourself.  Can

12     you confirm that this is a document you authored?

13        A.   That is correct.

14        Q.   And just generally related to what was happening in, is it Zepa,

15     Jepa, I know I'm not pronouncing it correctly.

16        A.   There should be, like, a little sign indicating Zepa.

17        Q.   And sorry, is that correct, that's the subject matter of the

18     letter?

19        A.   That's correct.

20             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be tendered as the next exhibit,

21     please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Its admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

23     number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2465, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 7326

 1             MS. BOLTON:

 2        Q.   If you would turn to the next tab in your binder, sir, you should

 3     have 65 ter 8825.  Do you have a document there, sir, 5th May, 1993?

 4     Another letter that purports to have been authored by yourself to the

 5     Security Council?

 6        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me and that is an authentic copy.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  If I could have that tendered as the next exhibit,

 8     please, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Its admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

10     number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2466.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

13             MS. BOLTON:

14        Q.   If you would turn, please, to the next tab, sir.  Tab NO should

15     have 65 ter 8826.

16        A.   I have that in front of me, Ms. Bolton.

17        Q.   And this is another letter from yourself to the Security Council

18     dated the 6th May, 1993; is that correct?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   Is this an authentic copy?

21        A.   Yes, that is correct.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

23     Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Its admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

25     number.

Page 7327

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  The document will become Exhibit P2467,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 4             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:

 6        Q.   If you could turn to tab R, please, in that same sequence.  You

 7     should have 65 ter 8829 in front of you.

 8        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.

 9        Q.   And a letter dated 7th May, 1993.  Can you confirm whether you

10     authored this document?

11        A.   Yes, I have.

12        Q.   In the second paragraph of this document, there's an allegation

13     that Serbian artillery units arrived yesterday from two towns and took up

14     positions on hills around Zepa.  In what republic or what country are

15     those two towns located?

16        A.   To be very clear, we were describing Serbian artillery units that

17     were coming from the region.  I cannot confirm to you that, in fact,

18     those were either coming directly from Bosnia or from Serbia proper.

19     Zepa, itself, is on the border of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On which side of the border?

21             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, to try to remember this situation at

22     that time, we were not always sure if, in fact, they had come from one or

23     the other side of the border.  We would be very specific --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt.  May I interrupt you.  The

25     question was --

Page 7328

 1             THE WITNESS:  Please, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question was:  On which side of the border was

 3     Zepa.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Zepa is on the side of the border of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be tendered as the next exhibit, please,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

10     number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2468, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MS. BOLTON:

14        Q.   Could I ask you, sir, to turn to tab, should be, 10E - sorry -

15     which is in evidence as Exhibit P2443, should be the report of the

16     Special Rapporteur from the 5th May, 1993.

17             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] Ms. Bolton, please confirm the 65

18     ter number, please.

19             MS. BOLTON:  5699.

20        Q.   Sorry, have we located that document or --

21        A.   I believe we have.  That's the report of the Economic and Social

22     Council, Commission on Human Rights.

23        Q.   Okay.  We've already described this document as having been one

24     of the reports authored by the Special Rapporteur, and if I could ask you

25     turn to paragraph 87.

Page 7329

 1        A.   Yes, I have that.

 2        Q.   We have there an indication that:

 3             "... massive and repeated violations of the Geneva Convention of

 4     1949 were perpetrated in recent combat in Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 5     They were carried out by Serb forces in Srpska, Konjevic Polje, and

 6     Srebrenica, in attacking and ambushing civilians attempting to flee their

 7     encirclement, in attacking the villages themselves, in refusing to allow

 8     humanitarian aid to enter, and in refusing to allow the evacuation of the

 9     wounded, and in attempting to link the above issues to the independent

10     question of freedom of movement for Serbs in Tuzla."

11             And then referring you quickly to paragraph 94C.  We have a

12     recommendation that the safe area concept be expanded and applied to

13     other areas of Bosnia and the Special Rapporteur indicates this should

14     immediately be the case with Gorazde and Zepa.

15             My question is, whether that recommendation was discussed at the

16     United Nations Security Council.

17        A.   Yes, it was, as some of these enclave that are mentioned here

18     actually did fall during that period of time, and the refugees then were

19     concentrated in Srebrenica, in particular, and Gorazde and Zepa to some

20     extent.

21        Q.   Can you tell me what the -- Bosnia's position was on this

22     recommendation of expansion of the concept of safe areas?

23        A.   Actually, at this point in time, we took a contrary view.  We

24     believed that if, in fact, only certain sections of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

25     I'm saying we, let me emphasise again for the Court's benefit, this was

Page 7330

 1     the view of the government of President Izetbegovic, who communicated to

 2     me, as well as the mission of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that the expansion of

 3     the safe-area concept to some, but not the whole territory of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina, would, by definition, then leave parts of the country

 5     as being unsafe areas and somehow open to continuing attack and abuses.

 6     We felt that there needed to be now a comprehensive resolution regarding

 7     not only, of course, peace but particularly that moment, the safety of

 8     the population.

 9             The -- ultimately the designation of just some areas, safe areas,

10     as I said, would leave others as being, in effect, unsafe.

11        Q.   Not withstanding your opposition was the Special Rapporteur's

12     recommendation acted upon by the Security Council?

13        A.   The Security Council did eventually adopt a resolution with six

14     designated safe areas, and we then proceeded, that is the government of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Presidency, proceeded to request that, in

16     fact, those methods of ensuring that these are safe areas be firmly

17     outlined; and that, in fact, this would be something more than just a

18     symbolic declaration.

19        Q.   Did you ever succeed in getting a firm outline of what those

20     methods would be?

21        A.   That continued to be a rather dynamic issue.  Eventually, NATO

22     was called upon to declare these areas also as protected zones.  And to

23     the extent that, in fact, NATO would engage in protecting the civilian

24     population, or, ultimately, as some said, it was only limited to the UN

25     forces within, again that was a rather dynamic discussion.

Page 7331

 1        Q.   We'll come back to that issue then, sir.  With respect to the

 2     fact, you said, that there was eventually adoption of resolution

 3     declaring safe areas, can I call your attention, please, to tab 15, I

 4     think it's P, which is already in evidence in these proceedings as

 5     Exhibit P212, should be a copy of Resolution 824.  Could you work off the

 6     electronic copy?  Is that e-court visible enough to you, sir?

 7        A.   It was yesterday, maybe we can try that.  According to my

 8     colleague, the Registrar here, it stops at M.  We don't have P in our

 9     binders.

10        Q.   I thought we just dealt with R in that same tab?

11        A.   I will endeavour to review what is on screen, and I'll let the

12     Registrar take his time to evaluate what is going on with the

13     documents --

14        Q.   Thank you.

15        A.   -- with the tabs.  I cannot see that yet.  It's just too far

16     away, and I can try to move closer to the screen.  Oh, here.

17        Q.   Let me tell you the issue I'm interested in.  It may be something

18     you don't need to refer to the document to answer.

19             The resolution --

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Ms. Bolton, if it's of any help and you wish to

21     read something to him because of the situation, I have absolutely no

22     objection.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

24        Q.   What I'm interested in, sir, is that the resolution declared at

25     paragraph 3, the capital city of --

Page 7332

 1        A.   We believe -- Ms. Bolton, we believe we have that.  Is this tab

 2     15, it's Resolution 824, 6 May, 1993?

 3        Q.   Yes, yes.

 4        A.   Okay, we have that here.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Just looking at numbered paragraph 3, we have description of the

 6     cities that are being designated as safe areas, and those cities are:

 7     Sarajevo, Tuzla, Zepa, Gorazde, Srebrenica, and Bihac.  And we've just

 8     been discussing what was happening in four of those cities, and I'm

 9     wondering if you could comment on the inclusion of Sarajevo and Bihac as

10     safe areas?  Could you tell us what, first, was going on in Sarajevo

11     historically at that time?

12        A.   Sarajevo, at that time, had been encircled for approximately,

13     well, actually, at that time, more than a year.  It had been denied

14     essential necessities of life, that is from food and water and medicines,

15     and had been under intense shelling and sniping.  The civilian

16     population, in particular itself, had been under attack.  Bihac is in the

17     north-west part of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It is a very significant

18     town, and it had been also surrounded, besieged from several directions,

19     including from the so-termed Croatian Serbs, or the Serbs of the Krajina

20     region of Croatia, as well as the Serbian forces within

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The conditions were quite similar to those in

22     Sarajevo in terms of denial of essentials of life as well as military

23     action directed at the population.

24        Q.   Can you just clarify by what you meant when you said it was a

25     significant town?

Page 7333

 1        A.   At least 100.000 population.  And I believe that was inflated by,

 2     again, a large number of refugees coming from what is called the Krajina

 3     region of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which by then had been largely ethnically

 4     cleansed of its non-Serb population.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I want to turn, if I could, please, your attention to the

 6     contents of tab 17 in that same binder.  The first document there should

 7     be 65 ter 8830, a letter from 1st June, 1993.

 8        A.   Yes, I have this.

 9        Q.   The resolution we were just dealing with was Resolution 824 from

10     the 6th May, 1993.  Reviewing the text you have in front of you, and, of

11     course, any independent memory you have, did you recall whether the

12     declaration of those six cities as safe areas brought an end to attacks

13     by the Serb forces in Bosnia?

14        A.   It did not.

15        Q.   Can you confirm that you authored the letter that's before you,

16     sir?

17        A.   Yes, I can.

18        Q.   The second page of that correspondence is an annex, that purports

19     to be a letter from President Izetbegovic.  Is that who authored this

20     letter, sir?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's so marked.  May it please be given an exhibit

24     number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

Page 7334

 1     Exhibit P2469.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 3             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 4             MS. BOLTON:

 5        Q.   Before we leave this letter, sir, there is an indication by -- in

 6     this letter at paragraph 1 that an allegation that the Bosnian Serb

 7     forces were reinforced by forces from the Republic of Serbia.  Do you

 8     have any recollection of where that information came from?

 9        A.   This information came from President Alija Izetbegovic.  As to

10     his sources, I frankly do not recall that.

11        Q.   If you could look at the next document in that same tab, sir.  It

12     should be 65 ter 8831.  A letter from the 2nd of June, 1993, and this one

13     authored from yourself?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And here you are indicating that you've received an update

16     directly from Gorazde once again, then you set out what is happening.

17     How would you receive information directly from Gorazde at that time?

18        A.   It was possible for the residents and/or the leadership, that is

19     political and/or military leadership, to try to contact us either via

20     telephone or short-wave that would connects into telephone.  When I say

21     telephone, I believe in most instances it, in fact, was satellite

22     telephone.  I know that they were both -- that is both telephone

23     connections and some short-wave connections.

24             And the contacts were made to my mission, which means that at

25     some times I was actually receiving that information directly, or members

Page 7335

 1     of my staff were receiving that information directly.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  And finally -- if that could be moved, sorry,

 3     Your Honour, as the next exhibit.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 5     number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2470.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

 8             MS. BOLTON:

 9        Q.   Final document on that tab should be 65 ter 8832, sir, should be

10     a letter from the 2nd of June, 1993 from yourself attaching a letter from

11     the president?

12        A.   That is correct.

13        Q.   And can you just confirm that that is a true copy of the original

14     correspondence?

15        A.   Yes, I can.

16             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please,

17     Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

19     given an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2471.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

22             MS. BOLTON:

23        Q.   With respect to the letters we've been dealing with, certainly

24     the first and second letter, actually all three, you asked that they be

25     circulated as a document of the Security Council.  To the best of your

Page 7336

 1     knowledge were they circulated?

 2        A.   Yes, they were, Ms. Bolton.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  If we could turn to tab 18, please.

 4        Q.   You should have 65 ter 2184 in front of you, UN Resolution 836.

 5        A.   Yes, I have that.

 6        Q.   We've been dealing with the question or the fact that despite the

 7     previous declaration of certain areas as safe areas, you've told us

 8     attacks continued, and you've documented some of those through letters.

 9     And you've also told us that there was a dynamic situation with respect

10     to what a safe area was.

11             Did Resolution 836 clarify to any extent what the UN response was

12     going to be to attacks on the safe area?

13        A.   Yes, if I may just correct; one, I think we all had a pretty good

14     idea what a safe area was supposed to be.  The question was:  What were

15     the mechanisms by which that would be ensured.

16        Q.   Did this resolution address that issue at all?

17        A.   Yes, it did.

18        Q.   Looking at paragraphs 9 and 10, there is discussion in paragraph

19     9 to authorisation for UNPROFOR carrying out its mandate to act in

20     self-defence or acting in self-defence to take the necessary measures,

21     including the use of force, in reply to bombardments against the safe

22     areas.  Then at paragraph 10, a reference to member states acting

23     nationally or through region organisations authorizing them to take all

24     necessary measures through the use of air power to support UNPROFOR.

25             The reference to regional organisation, was there any specific

Page 7337

 1     organisation or organisations that were contemplated at the time this

 2     resolution was passed?

 3        A.   Clearly NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

 4        Q.   And from the perspective of your government, based on the wording

 5     of this resolution, what were you expecting UNPROFOR and NATO would do if

 6     attacks continued on safe areas?

 7        A.   With the indulgence of the Court --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.  Yes, Mr Guy-Smith.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  By virtue of some of the testimony we've already

10     heard during this trial, I would appreciate it --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you give us a reference.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would appreciate it if the question asked was

13     not compounds with regard to what UNPROFOR and NATO would do because we

14     have heard from various members of UNPROFOR that their duties and

15     responsibilities were distinct from those of NATO.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

17             MS. BOLTON:  I'm actually asking a separate question, which is

18     what his country's expectations were, which is independent of what

19     representatives of UNPROFOR may have testified to in these proceedings as

20     to their understanding of their obligations.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.  If once again I would ask that the

22     question asked not include both organisations.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Split them.

24             MS. BOLTON:

25        Q.   If you could comment on -- if you can comment on those

Page 7338

 1     organisations separately?

 2        A.   At least as the situation evolved, there was what was called a

 3     dual-key approach.  That, in fact, these two institutions would act in

 4     conjunction to an attack upon the safe area.  The bigger question,

 5     frankly, was under paragraph 9:  What did it mean under self-defence.

 6     And our major focus was that, in fact, an attack upon the population, in

 7     the safe area itself, would trigger response from UNPROFOR and NATO at

 8     that time.

 9             The two institutions, in fact, that is the UN protection force

10     and NATO, were supposed to act in conjunction, and sometimes that lack of

11     coordination or maybe lack of shared views on the matter, was the one

12     that created the most difficulty in the context of this resolution.

13        Q.   You said that your position was that acting in self-defence

14     included an attack on the population.

15        A.   That is correct, Ms. Bolton.

16        Q.   Was that view universally held or only held by

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18        A.   It was not a universal position.  At some point in time, the

19     mandate was drawn so narrowly that, in fact, the United Nations

20     Protection Force, itself, would have to say that it was under attack in

21     order to trigger the first key and then the seconds key.  The first key

22     being the UN Commanders key; the second key being the NATO Commanders

23     key.

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.

25        A.   Thank you.

Page 7339

 1        Q.   We talked earlier about the fact that -- or some of the rationale

 2     that was advanced in terms of the declaration of Srebrenica as a safe

 3     area.  Was the rationale that was advanced for the declaration of these

 4     other five cities or towns any different than what had applied to

 5     Srebrenica?

 6        A.   In only matters of urgency and time.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  If I could have -- I think that's not yet an exhibit

 8     in these proceedings.  Yes, if that could be marked as the next exhibit,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 2184 is admitted.  May it please be given

11     an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2472.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             Yes, Madam Bolton.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Sir, if you could turn to tab 19 in the binder.  You should have

17     Resolution 838, which is 65 ter 2183, resolution dated the 10th of June,

18     1993, from the Security Council?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   I am interested in the second page primarily of this resolution.

21     There is a paragraph that starts with the words "bearing in mind,"

22     reference says:  Resolution 757, concerning the prevention by all states

23     of imports into their territories of all commodities and products

24     originating in or exported from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; and a

25     further reference to paragraph 12 of Resolution 820 concerning

Page 7340

 1     transshipment; and then numbered paragraph 1 indicates that the

 2     Secretary-General is being requested to provide a report on options for

 3     the deployment of international observers to monitor effectively the

 4     implementation of the Security Council resolutions.

 5             Was there any information available to the Security Council that

 6     you were privy to -- sorry, what information that you were privy to led

 7     to the conclusion or the recommendation that there was a need for

 8     deployment of international observers to monitor the compliance with the

 9     Security Council resolutions.

10        A.   Actually already within the London Conference of August of 1992,

11     there was a call for the deployment of what, here, is called monitors.

12     Actually Bosnia-Herzegovina had been asking for effectively control of

13     the border.

14             Subsequent to that time-frame, there was consistent information

15     that the border, in fact, was being violated, in particular by men and

16     military goods, that is military personnel and goods.  And, as I believe,

17     in one of your brief documents, there is -- they had also noted the

18     reports of Mr. Garakan [phoen] who, was the Secretary-General

19     representative on the issue, and who would issue reports to Security

20     Council members.  We would sometimes get also -- we would also receive

21     those reports.  And if we did not receive them directly, then they would

22     be conveyed to us by member states of the Security Council who would then

23     brief us outside in the UN Security Council anti-Chamber.

24             Finally, there was also, of course, discussion of these points

25     throughout the whole conflict through the sanctions committee of the

Page 7341

 1     Security Council.

 2        Q.   Just for clarification, you said in your answer that there were

 3     reports of Mr. Garakan on the issue, and what issue were you referring

 4     to?

 5        A.   The issue as a whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Those reports would

 6     also include reports by the Secretary-General, generally emanating from

 7     the -- presumably emanating from the sources on the ground.  With respect

 8     to any element of the mandate of the United Nations in Bosnian,

 9     everything from, of course, the UN Protection Force to the issue of

10     violations of Security Council resolutions pertaining to sanctions and,

11     in effect, the closing of that border to military personnel and goods.

12        Q.   You have mentioned that information would sometimes come from

13     UNPROFOR on the issue.  Were there any other United Nations associated

14     entities before the border -- before this resolution who were tasked with

15     monitoring for violations?

16        A.   There had been present within Bosnia the -- what was then the

17     European Commission Observer Mission they, in fact, may have worked in

18     conjunction with the United Nations.  I believe, and this is a very

19     difficult question because we saw them all as coming basically from the

20     United Nations, generally I think what I want to emphasise is the

21     information coming from any UN source was generally filtered through the

22     Secretariat, that is the Secretary-General's office.  So we were not

23     always privy as to what was the actual source on the ground.

24        Q.   Okay.  Was this recommendation that there be monitors acted upon?

25        A.   As I understand it was.  Again, the details and the intensity of

Page 7342

 1     that were something that was dynamic and developed over time.

 2        Q.   Were those individuals given a particular title or how would we

 3     know who was appointed pursuant to this resolution?

 4        A.   I am testing my memory here, but if I'm not mistaken, and I wish

 5     to be sure that I'm clear I'm not absolutely sure, I believe, in fact,

 6     these individuals did have a separate designation from the UN Protection

 7     Force.  They, in fact, were called the monitoring mission or something to

 8     that degree.  I'm -- I believe there's a slightly different title there

 9     with the UN word in front of it.

10             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

11     Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May it please be given an

13     exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P2473, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MS. BOLTON:  I want to move to a different topic, sir, although

17     we've touched on this briefly, and that is -- and this is again we are

18     still in 1993.  We've talked a little bit about the situation in

19     Sarajevo, and I want to ask you about two documents, but we need to ask

20     for a private session for these -- for one document actually, sir.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7343











11 Pages 7343-7344 redacted. Private session.















Page 7345

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  We are in open session.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, we were having microphone problems there,

 7     again, Your Honour, but it looks like it's time for the second break in

 8     any event.  Perhaps we can address the technical issues at the break.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.  We'll come

10     back at quarter to 6.00.  Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For the record, Judge David is back now, we are no

14     longer sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis.  It's a normal session.

15             Madam Bolton.

16             MS. BOLTON:

17        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, I think we have only one document left in this

18     binder to discuss, and it should be found at tab 20, 65 ter 6621,

19     Resolution 859 from the 24th of August, 1993.

20        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.

21        Q.   There's a couple of passages I'll refer you to and then I'll have

22     just a few questions.  On the first page about halfway down, there's a

23     paragraph that starts with the word "condemning" says:

24             "Condemning, once again, all war crimes and other violations of

25     international humanitarian law, by whomsoever committed, Bosnian Serbs or

Page 7346

 1     other individuals."

 2             Further on that same page, the Security Council expresses concern

 3     about the continuing siege of Sarajevo, Mostar, other threatened cities.

 4             Turning the page, if you would, sir, there is then, as underneath

 5     the actual resolution section, numbered paragraph 5 where there's a

 6     reference to:

 7             "Noting with appreciation the Secretary-General's letter, stating

 8     that the United Nations has now the initial operational capability for

 9     the use of air power in support of UNPROFOR in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

10             Was that air power utilized at that time?

11        A.   Not prior to this date, but subsequent to this date it was.

12        Q.   Can you be any more exact in terms of 1993, can you recall

13     whether, tell me if you can't, whether there was any use of the NATO air

14     power at that point?

15        A.   Yes, there were several instances, and the dates would really be

16     now a little bit more difficult for me to remember, although the

17     locations would not be:  One of them would be events related to Sarajevo;

18     another one would be to events related to Bihac; a third one, if I'm not

19     mistaken, would be events related to the eastern enclaves, particularly,

20     if I'm not mistaken, around Gorazde.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Can I ask that that be marked as the next exhibit,

22     please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

24     number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2474.

Page 7347

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MS. BOLTON:

 3        Q.   Sir, I want to turn to 1994, and as I indicated I think at the

 4     beginning of the proceedings, there obviously isn't time to speak about

 5     every development in the war, so I want to focus our discussions for 1994

 6     on three areas:  First is going to be Sarajevo; second is going to be the

 7     commission of experts final report; and the third will be two resolutions

 8     from the Security Council.

 9             So continuing on the theme or talking about Sarajevo, could I ask

10     you to turn in the 1994 binder -- you have that binder in front of you?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  Tab A, please.  That would be 65 ter 6770, document

13     titled "Note by The President of the Security Council."

14        A.   No, I have "Provisional verbatim record of the 3201st meeting of

15     the Security Council."

16        Q.   What year is that document you are looking at, sir?

17        A.   April 19, 1993.

18        Q.   We should have a different binder with 1994, I think.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Court's indulgence.

20             THE WITNESS:  This binder is entitled 1993/1994.

21             MS. BOLTON:

22        Q.   I'm told there is a divider, sorry, between the 1993 section and

23     the 1994 section in that binder.

24             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] Could Ms. Bolton please repeat the

25     65 ter number.

Page 7348

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, 6770.

 2             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] Under 6770, Ms. Bolton, I have a

 3     document dated the 19th of April, 1993.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Court's indulgence.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, are you sure they heard you when you

 6     said there was a divider between 1993 and 1994.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I think I may have the wrong 65 ter number for

 8     this exhibit, so I am just going to take a moment and check that.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't believe you do.  If you do, so do I.

10             MS. BOLTON:  Okay, well, it's 6770.

11             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] That is correct, Ms. Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Right.  Brief indulgence.

13        Q.   Can we try bringing that up on e-court.  It's not a long

14     document.  It's already -- can you see it in the electronic form,

15     Mr. Sacirbey?

16        A.   We can now.

17        Q.   This is not a lengthy document.  In paragraph 2 of this document,

18     let me just refer to you a passage:

19             "The Security Council condemns any hostilities in the United

20     Nations designated safe areas, especially in the Sarajevo area.  In

21     particular, it strongly condemns the continuing military pressure on and

22     the relentless bombardment by Bosnian Serb forces of the capital city,

23     Sarajevo.  It demands the immediate end to attacks against Sarajevo,

24     which have resulted in a high number of civilian casualties, seriously

25     disrupted essential services, and aggravated an already severe

Page 7349

 1     humanitarian situation."

 2             And it continues from there.

 3             We had been talking in 1993 in August about the situation around

 4     Mount Igman.  I neglected to ask if that situation had resolved itself by

 5     January 1994?

 6        A.   It had not.  The situation continued to be volatile and

 7     militarily active until, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere in the spring of

 8     1994.

 9        Q.   And this paragraph by the Security Council, does that accurately

10     reflect your understanding based on the information you were receiving

11     from Sarajevo?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.

13        Q.   Sorry, sir.  Thank you.

14        A.   Yes, that is correct.

15        Q.   And we have discussed this kind of document before, to some

16     extent, and my question is in order -- before a note is issued by the

17     president of the Security Council, is it voted on?

18        A.   There is no formal vote.  In fact, it does have to be, though,

19     agreed to by consensus.

20        Q.   And is that consensus, does that have to be all 15 members or

21     just the five permanent members or some combination thereof?

22        A.   Consensus would be all 15 members.

23             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next be exhibit,

24     please.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

Page 7350

 1     number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2475.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 4             MS. BOLTON:

 5        Q.   Under what circumstances would the Security Council issue a

 6     statement as opposed to passing a resolution?

 7        A.   Honestly, here was a matter almost of appearance.  There had been

 8     so many resolutions passed respect of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and some of the

 9     resolutions, of course, were repeating --

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would beg Ms. Bolton to control the witness

13     when a question like that is asked and an answer like this is given.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith.  I don't know what you are

15     saying.  I don't understand what the basis of your objection is.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm just asking Ms. Bolton to control the

17     witness.  "Under what circumstances would the Security Council issue a

18     statement as opposed to passing a resolution?"

19             Apart from the fact that I did not jump to my feet to argue that

20     this is, once again, an inappropriate questioning as this particular

21     gentleman because of the lack of foundation, when the response comes as

22     this response comes, this a very specific question.  This is an abstract

23     question.  And the answer that she's been given clearly does not follow

24     from the question she's asked.  She has commented yesterday that she

25     cannot control the witness.  She can intercede when this occurs.

Page 7351

 1             It is a highly, highly, improper and prejudicial way to proceed

 2     during a trial to have a witness run amuck.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Sir, sorry, you were beginning to answer the question that was

 6     posed, and just to refresh your memory, you had started to say, "Honestly

 7     here was a matter almost of appearance ...," and you were talking about

 8     the number of resolutions that had been passed, and if you could just

 9     continue if you have anything to add to that?

10        A.   The resolutions already dealt with factors that were presumably

11     necessary to bring about the desired results.  Because the desired

12     results were not being, in fact, delivered, then the presidential

13     statement would be brought about to emphasise the need to comply with

14     previous resolutions or to emphasise acts on the ground that were

15     occurring that were inconsistent with previous resolutions.

16             In the case of Bosnia-Herzegovina there was a unprecedented

17     number of resolutions and, in fact, the Security Council increasingly

18     relied upon presidential statements to recall its previous actions in

19     terms of resolutions to emphasise the need for compliance of those

20     resolutions as well as to bring to the forefront matters, issues, actions

21     that were inconsistent with performance under those resolutions.

22        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to return to January or February of 1994 and

23     events in Sarajevo.

24             MS. BOLTON:  Could I ask that we move into private session,

25     Your Honour.

Page 7352

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7353











11 Pages 7353-7356 redacted. Private session.















Page 7357

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 9             MS. BOLTON:

10        Q.   We were talking about a marketplace shelling, and we were talking

11     about a situation in Sarajevo.  How was -- what happened or how was the

12     situation resolved in the wake of the marketplace shelling that you've

13     talked about?  What happened -- sorry my question is not clear.  Strike

14     that last question.

15             What was the situation after February 1994 in Sarajevo?

16        A.   For a period there, the shelling was so frequent that probably

17     every other day there were very significant numbers of casualties in

18     Sarajevo from shelling and, of course, continued sniping.  When I say

19     significant number, we would have an incident that would cause the death,

20     let's say, of maybe five to ten people, and that almost became an

21     every-day affair as one would put it callously.

22             After this period of time, the heavy weapons began to be, in

23     fact, deposited into containment areas, and in fact, the threat of NATO

24     air action presumably was taken more seriously; and, therefore, the

25     intensity, the frequency of these attacks certainly became less.  And

Page 7358

 1     even the ability of humanitarian assistance to come into the towns was

 2     more frequent.  Let me put it that way.

 3        Q.   We'll clarify this, sir, by looking at a document.  If I could

 4     ask you to look at 65 ter 5048, which is tab -- that same tab for you.

 5     Should be behind the document we were just discussing --

 6        A.   Right.

 7        Q.   -- and it's Resolution 900 of the Security Council.

 8        A.   Right.

 9        Q.   And there is a reference on the first page of that resolution, in

10     the paragraph that starts with the word "taking note," to a cease-fire

11     agreement of -- reached on the 9th of February, 1994.

12        A.   Yes, I have this.

13        Q.   Could you tell us if there was -- you've already started to

14     allude to this, was there any change in the living conditions for the

15     civilian population in Sarajevo following the negotiation of that

16     cease-fire agreement?

17        A.   First of all, from secondhand reports there certainly was, and

18     from my own personal observations, since I had travelled to Sarajevo

19     before then and after then, there was a very significant change in the --

20     both in terms of the attacks upon the civilian population as well as the

21     ability of humanitarian assistance to reach that population.

22        Q.   And when we are talking about a very significant change, are you

23     talking about a change for the better or change for the worse?

24        A.   I'm sorry, I was not clear.  There was a significant change for

25     the better.

Page 7359

 1        Q.   And how long did that improved situation in Sarajevo last?

 2        A.   Ms. Bolton, I'm being asked to just let you know, as the

 3     Registrar here with me, the -- we are hearing you very poorly, but,

 4     nonetheless, I can proceed; so just in case we need to ask you to repeat

 5     the question, you'll understand why.

 6             And to now respond to your direct question, that situation

 7     continued until, I think it's fair enough to say, the late summer of

 8     1994.

 9        Q.   Did there appear to be any particular event that resulted in the

10     deterioration or the -- yeah, the deterioration again of the situation in

11     Sarajevo?

12        A.   It was, in fact, a rejection of what then was called a contact

13     group peace plan which was issued to the parties in the early part of

14     that summer in 1994.  The rejection came from the Serbian side.  By then

15     I should emphasise that the Bosnian government was also representing as

16     the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which, in fact, was a way for the

17     so-called Bosnian Croat party as well as the government of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina to reach agreement.

19        Q.   Okay.  During that period we've just been talking about, roughly

20     February to the end of the summer of 1994, did the incidents of shelling

21     ever stop completely?

22        A.   No, they did not, Ms. Bolton, but frankly as I said, the

23     situation was dramatically different.

24        Q.   And how about sniping incidents, did they end entirely, and I

25     mean by the Bosnian Serb forces in this case?

Page 7360

 1        A.   No, they did not.  But again it was a very dramatic change.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  If this document could be marked as an exhibit,

 4     please, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 6     number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2476.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MS. BOLTON:

10        Q.   I just want to ask you to turn, please, in the binder you have

11     before you to tab H.  You should have 65 ter 8836 before you.

12        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.

13        Q.   Should be a letter dated the 15th November, 1994?

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15        Q.   In which you are complaining --

16        A.   Ms. Bolton, am I screaming back at you?  Because as I hear you,

17     as I'm able to hear you less, I might be screaming back or is the volume

18     here at this end okay?  I ask you and, obviously, His Honour and Defence

19     counsel.

20             MS. BOLTON:  I'm able to hear you without difficulty and

21     His Honour is nodding that the volume is all right for him as it is for

22     Defence counsel.  You are not shouting at us.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

24             MS. BOLTON:

25        Q.   If I could just ask again, sir, if you could confirm that this is

Page 7361

 1     a letter that you authored?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   And again, you asked that it be circulated as a document of the

 4     Security Council?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   And again, to the best of your knowledge, was that done?

 7        A.   Yes, it was.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

 9     Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

11     number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that document will become

13     Exhibit P2477.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             Yes, Madam Bolton.

16             MS. BOLTON:

17        Q.   Turning to the next tab in your binder, sir, tab J, you should

18     have 65 ter 8837.  Again, if you could just confirm for me, it should be

19     a letter from yourself dated 17th November, 1994.  Could you confirm that

20     you did, in fact, author it?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   Again it ends by asking it be circulated as a document to

23     Security Council.  To the best of your knowledge was that done?

24        A.   That is correct.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

Page 7362

 1     Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May it please be given a number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2478, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 5             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Sir, I'd like to move on now from Sarajevo to the second issue

 8     that I said I'd like to discuss with you with respect to 1994, and that

 9     is the release of the final report from the commission of experts, which

10     you should find at tab B, I think, in 1994.

11             MS. BOLTON:  Court's indulgence.  It's Exhibit P1536, and I may

12     have the wrong tab.  If we could just hold for a minute, please.

13             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] We have it, Ms. Bolton.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

15        Q.   And it should be, for the record, I think the first -- the date

16     on it is date of 27th May, 1994.

17        A.   Yes, I have that.

18        Q.   And we have a reproduced -- you should, I think, have pages 1 to

19     84; is that correct?

20        A.   I believe I do.

21        Q.   Again, I'm going to refer you to a couple of passages and then I

22     have some questions for you.

23        A.   Okay.

24        Q.   If I could refer you first -- I believe there's a cover letter at

25     the very first page, and that is a letter dated 24th May, 1994?

Page 7363

 1        A.   Yes, I have that.

 2        Q.   That's a letter authored, I believe, from Boutros Boutros-Ghali

 3     to the president of the Security Council?

 4        A.   That is correct.

 5        Q.   Looking at paragraph 4, Mr. Boutros Boutros-Ghali indicates:

 6             "On the basis of the information gathered, examined, and

 7     analysed, the commission has concluded that grave breaches of the

 8     Geneva Conventions and other violations of international humanitarian law

 9     have been committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia on a large

10     scale and were particularly brutal and ferocious in their execution.  The

11     practice of so-called ethnic cleansing and rape and sexual assault, in

12     particular, has been carried out by some of the parties so systematically

13     that they strongly appear to be a products of a policy, which may also be

14     inferred from the consistent failure to prevent the commission of such

15     crimes and to prosecute and punish their perpetrators."

16             Was this letter received by yourself?

17        A.   Yes, it was, Ms. Bolton.

18        Q.   And the text of the actual report?

19        A.   I did review the report.

20        Q.   And is that a document that you had to seek out?

21        A.   I'm just looking for the document right now, and I was going to

22     see if it was made a document of the Security Council.  I don't see that

23     designation, but we did receive this report, and I do remember it very

24     well.

25        Q.   Looking at the first page of the document, of the letter we were

Page 7364

 1     discussing, there's letterhead that looks like Security Council, does

 2     that mean anything in terms of its circulation?

 3        A.   Yes.  I was noting that because it shows it as distribution

 4     general, which means the general membership.  And it appears to be a

 5     document of Security Council.  What I didn't see is the Secretary-General

 6     anywhere asking for it to be distributed as such, which I guess he didn't

 7     have to, it was distributed as such.

 8        Q.   Okay.  If I could refer you to paragraph 129, which is page 33 of

 9     the English version.  At paragraph 129 in the first section of it, there

10     is discussion of the term "ethnic cleansing" in both -- they are citing

11     from an interim report.  And we had been discussing earlier in our

12     exchange whether there had been a definition of ethnic cleansing ever

13     adopted by the Security Council.  Can you tell me, was there agreement as

14     to whether this is the definition of ethnic cleansing?

15        A.   I believe this comes as close as there is to consensus.

16        Q.   Looking at paragraph 131, there is a reference with respect to

17     the practices by Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it then says:

18             "Ethnic cleansing is commonly used as a term to describe a policy

19     conducted in furtherance of political doctrines relating to Greater

20     Serbia?"

21             Can you assist us in what those -- when we have reference to the

22     political doctrines, what is that a reference to?

23        A.   That is in reference, in particular, to the very broad notion of

24     Greater Serbia.  That notion was applied with the strategy, plan, if you

25     would, of incorporating any area that was deemed to be somehow a part of

Page 7365

 1     the territory that Serbs did or had occupied to be part of, in effect, a

 2     redefined Serbia, an enhanced or expanded Serbia.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Brief indulgence, sir.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Ms. Bolton, it really is extremely annoying, the

 5     noise that we are getting at this end.  So please excuse me that my

 6     concentration is being rattled.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Are you able to hear me clearly, sir, or is it such

 8     that you can't understand what I'm saying?  Are we breaking up?

 9             THE WITNESS:  I'm able to hear you with quite great

10     concentration, so my answers are, to some extent, distracted by the focus

11     on hearing you.  Continue, I'll try to do the best that I can here.

12             MS. BOLTON:  You are breaking up a little bit on this end but not

13     too badly.  Just a moment, sir.

14                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Registrar in New York suggests maybe we take a

16     short break and try to re-establish connection.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.  We are going to try to re-establish, sir.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a short break.  We will be called.

19                           --- Break taken at 6.31 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 6.50 p.m.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, had you got an answer to your

22     question or had you --

23             MS. BOLTON:

24        Q.   I just want -- can you hear us now, sir, or how are things on

25     that end?

Page 7366

 1        A.   They are about the same, maybe even slightly worse, but as I

 2     understand, it's for another 15 minutes, and I'll try to maintain my

 3     concentration.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, if I may just interrupt --

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- given the noise in the background, if we

 7     adjourned now, would everybody be available to sit tomorrow morning.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  The problem is --

 9             THE WITNESS:  We cannot hear, Your Honour

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am sorry, I guess my suggestion has just been

12     shot down.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Three in the morning is a little early for --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Three in the morning is a little early.  What I

15     said was, Could we switch tomorrow morning.

16             THE WITNESS:  I don't have any problem with that.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no, but tomorrow morning, it will be 3.00 in

18     New York, 3.00 in the morning, so we can't sit.

19             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, Your Honour, I'm willing to be here.

20     I'm willing to be here if I can be allowed to come into the building.  I

21     will not object.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the problem, I don't know whether the

23     Registrar next to you there or Madam Corominas would be willing to be

24     there at 3.00 in the morning, so I would hate.

25             MS. COROMINAS:  Your Honour, that --

Page 7367

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Madam --

 2             MS. COROMINAS:  Your Honour, Madam Corominas here, that would be

 3     fine with me to be here at 3.00 in the morning.  The building is open.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is the building open?  And Mr. Registrar?

 5             MS. COROMINAS:  Yes, it is, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Let's check out with the

 7     people here then.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Your Honour --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- having lived for awhile as a child in New

12     York, I know that New Yorkers are tough people, and you know, they can

13     stay up all night.  But I'm not sure that this is necessarily an

14     effective way of doing things, because if we have a transmission problem

15     tomorrow, I don't know whether all the rest of the staff that's involved

16     in the technical aspects of this particular kind of video transmission

17     are also going to be available.  I think we need to make sure about that

18     too.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's actually what the Registrar was raising

20     with me, and it does look like it's logistically a little difficult to

21     arrange a sitting tomorrow morning.  We may just have to adjourn to

22     another date.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, Your Honour, I agree.  I agree, I have no

24     difficulty with adjourning to tomorrow, Your Honour, and I think there

25     would be a number of logistical issues with trying to start at 3.00 in

Page 7368

 1     the morning, New York time, including the fact that we haven't booked the

 2     time for the videolink for that --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Aren't we scheduled to sit in the afternoon

 4     tomorrow anyway?

 5             MS. BOLTON:  We are sitting in the afternoon tomorrow, starting

 6     at --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, well, why don't we postpone until tomorrow

 8     afternoon.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Okay, yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Somehow I had it in my mind that something else

11     was happening in the afternoon.  Sorry.  Okay, then let's adjourn to

12     tomorrow.  This time it will not be half past 2.00, it will be quarter

13     past 2.00.  Is that okay?  Courtroom I for people in the Netherlands,

14     right where you are there in New York.

15             Mr. Sacirbey, I must warn you again, you don't talk to anybody

16     until you are excused from testifying -- talk to anybody about the case.

17     You can talk to other people, to everybody about anything else.  Thank

18     you so much.

19             THE WITNESS:  I believe I heard Your Honour's -- Your Honour's

20     words.  I believe I have heard them correctly and has to do with me

21     speaking to anyone else regarding the case.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Sacirbey.  Have a good day

23     and we'll meet tomorrow.  Court adjourned.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.

Page 7369

 1                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of June,

 2                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.