Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7465

 1                           Friday, 19 June 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  And in the courtroom down in New York, good morning.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

10     number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             Can we have the appearances for today, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Mark Harmon,

15     Lorna Bolton, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks very much, Madam Bolton and for the

17     Defence.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Daniela Tasic,

19     Chad Mair, Kay Marshall, Novak Lukic, and I'm Gregor Guy-Smith, on behalf

20     of Momcilo Perisic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

22             Mr. Sacirbey, let's go through the ritual again.  You are still

23     bound by the declaration that you made beginning of your testimony to

24     tell the truth whole truth and nothing else but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]

Page 7466

 1                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes thank you very much.

 4             Madam Bolton.

 5                           Examination by Ms. Bolton: [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 7        A.   Good afternoon.

 8        Q.   If you just give me an indulgence, sir.  I don't seem to have any

 9     sound coming through my -- no, not -- my microphone from within the

10     courtroom.  Sorry, I'm just testing that, sir.  Thank you, that's --

11     thank you.

12             Sir, I just want to a bit of a housekeeping before we continue

13     our conversation about Sarajevo.  I want to go back to a couple of issues

14     that were discussed yesterday.  [Microphone not activated] ... I'm still

15     having problems with my headphones.

16             Sir -- sorry, I still have no sound of my -- from within the

17     courtroom.

18             I'm just testing the microphone here, sir.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can't we get the technicians to come and help?

20             MS. BOLTON:  I think we -- I think that fixes it.  Could --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, are you able to phone the

22     technicians?

23             MS. BOLTON:  I think we have it now, Your Honour.  That's fine.

24     Thank you.  Sorry, this one doesn't seem to be working.

25        Q.   Sorry about that, Mr. Sacirbey.

Page 7467

 1             Going to your testimony from yesterday at page 7381, I was asking

 2     you about a publication called "Borba," which you had indicated was a

 3     large published newspaper, a daily, and you told us it was published in

 4     Serbian.  What I neglected to ask you is where is it published?

 5        A.   I believe it's published in Belgrade.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  At page 7420 of your testimony from yesterday, I

 7     was asking you about the resourcing of the ICFY Monitor Mission, and I

 8     had asked you a question -- first I had indicated to you, read to you a

 9     paragraph 19 from their report, where they had indicated they didn't have

10     the -- the compatibility to monitor effectively the closure of the air

11     border.  And I had asked you if the situation had changed, and you gave a

12     response.  I wanted to ask if they ever received the resourcing that had

13     originally been recommended they receive?

14        A.   I'm not aware of, and one of the reasons for some of the

15     ambiguity is because this rose out of the London Conference.  I believe

16     it also fell -- it was part of the negotiations, that is, the negotiating

17     process, but it was also part of the United Nations system.

18        Q.   Thank you, sir.  During our conversation with respect to the

19     situation in Sarajevo in 1995, there were two documents that I intended

20     to refer you to and didn't.  So I wonder if I could take you to tab 4 of

21     the binder you have in front of you, where you should find 65 ter 8846.

22        A.   I do have that in front of me.

23        Q.   That's a letter dated -- actual letter is dated 15 April 1995.

24     And above it this is an second date or another date of 17 April 1995.

25             Can you explain why the date above doesn't match the date of the

Page 7468

 1     actual letter?

 2        A.   The letter itself probably was provided on April 15th.  But the

 3     time that, in fact, it was issued as a document of the Security Council,

 4     it was 17th of April.  I'm not sure why there may have been a day or two

 5     delay.  It could have been a weekend issue, holiday issue, or just

 6     bureaucratic issue.

 7        Q.   So when we look at other documents that date, at the top there,

 8     that would be the date that of -- that it's made a Security Council

 9     document?

10        A.   That is correct.  It seems to refer to the distribution time,

11     which is 17th of April, 1995.

12        Q.   Okay.  In the second paragraph of this document, which is

13     authored by yourself, there is an reference again to the border between

14     the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Federal Republic of

15     Yugoslavia as being porous.  And then later in that paragraph, you refer

16     to helicopter flights, bus loads of soldiers, and fuel transports, are

17     all evidence of this untenable situation.  And you then go on to say:

18             "We would like to express here our appreciation to the delegation

19     of the United States of America for having brought these facts to the

20     attention of the Security Council."

21             What were you referring to there?

22        A.   Up -- I was referring to, obviously, other sources of information

23     than those that were specifically mandated and solely mandated for that

24     purpose.  In other words, they were other national sources, I think I

25     mentioned yesterday, that were available.  They may have been satellite,

Page 7469

 1     they may have been overflights, or they may have been actual observers or

 2     other intelligence on the ground.

 3        Q.   When you're talking about the national source of the information

 4     you were referring to in this paragraph, what nationality did it come

 5     from?

 6        A.   The United States of America.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And was this information they conveyed to you privately or

 8     to a broader audience?

 9        A.   No.  This was conveyed to a broader audience.  That is it, the

10     audience of the Security Council and all of those who participated its

11     work formally and informally, I mean also in the context of the

12     antechamber of the Security Council.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

17     given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2500.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             MS. BOLTON:

21        Q.   Could you turn, sir, to the next tab in your binder, tab 5, where

22     you should find, as a first document, Prosecution Exhibit 853.

23             MS. BOLTON:  I need to go into closed session for this,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

Page 7470

 1             You want private or closed?

 2             MS. BOLTON:  No, closed session, please, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Closed session, please.

 4                           [Closed session]

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Page 7471











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Page 7501

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             Yes, Madam Bolton.

Page 7502

 1             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Sir, could you turn to tab 20 in the binder you have.  It should

 4     be 65 ter 8869.

 5        A.   Yes, I do have that, Ms. Bolton.

 6        Q.   Should be a letter dated 14th July, 1995, from Mr. Misic, to

 7     which was annexed the letter from the president of the Federation of

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 9             Can you indicate whether you recognise this document, sir.

10        A.   I do, Ms. Bolton.

11        Q.   And simply looking at the second page of the document.  There is

12     a reference at the bottom of the first paragraph to, "An attack against

13     the safe area of Zepa today."

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And could you just tell us very briefly what was happening in

16     Zepa area?

17        A.   Zepa was somewhat smaller enclave, even more isolated than

18     Srebrenica.  Based upon what I had stated in the past, that there was a

19     lot of pressure on us to exchange these enclaves for some other

20     territory, after the fall of Srebrenica, there continued to be that

21     pressure.

22             Zepa came under direct military attack.  At some point in time,

23     also during this period, President Izetbegovic, in fact, did sent a

24     delegation that met directly with General Ratko Mladic in the context of

25     the potential evacuation of Zepa.  All of this was happening around the

Page 7503

 1     same time.

 2        Q.   What happened to that delegation?

 3        A.   It was -- it was a team that, in effect, was to supposed to

 4     negotiate the potential evacuation of Zepa.  Only subsequent to that time

 5     and several months later, did I find out that that team, in fact, had

 6     disappeared.  The Serbian forces had reported to the International

 7     Committee of the Red Cross that, quote/unquote, Those delegation members

 8     had escaped.  Of course, they were never accounted for again.

 9        Q.   And just to clarify, when you indicate it came -- Zepa was under

10     military attack, it was under military attack from whom?

11        A.   It was under attack from Serbian forces, and it was a period soon

12     after the fall of Srebrenica.

13        Q.   And just to clarify what you mean by the word "Serbian forces"?

14        A.   As I have said in the past, I'm speaking of the forces of Serbia

15     and Montenegro, combined with their allies and/or agents within Bosnia

16     and Herzegovina.  Again it was not a distinction that I was able or did

17     make.

18             MS. BOLTON:  Could that letter be marked as the next exhibit,

19     please, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The letter is marked as an exhibit.  May it be

21     given an exhibit number.

22             As we do that, who are the allies of the Serbian forces in Bosnia

23     and Herzegovina, Mr. Sacirbey?

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, we understood, again to use

25     terminology that we have used during my testimony, the Pale Serbs to be

Page 7504

 1     allies and agents of Belgrade.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

 4     Exhibit P2504.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, madam.

 6             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 7             MS. BOLTON:

 8        Q.   If you could turn very briefly to tab 16, sir.  You should find

 9     two documents there, 65 ter 8864 and 8865.  And with respect to those

10     documents, I simply want you to indicate whether you can authentic them.

11        A.   Yes, I can.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Could those be tendered in evidence, Your Honour,

13     please.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's admitted.  May it please be given an

15     exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 8864 would become Exhibit

17     P2705.  And 65 ter 8865 will become Exhibit P2506.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

19             Yes, Madam Bolton.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   If you could turn, please, sir, to tab 24, there should be a

22     document, I think it's the second document in that tab, 65 ter 6780.

23        A.   Yes, I have that, Ms. Bolton.

24        Q.   And again, could you simply confirm whether this is, in fact, a

25     true copy of the statement of the president of the Security Council from

Page 7505

 1     25th July, 1995?

 2        A.   Yes, it is, Ms. Bolton.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please,

 4     Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be marked,

 6     Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2507.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MS. BOLTON:

10        Q.   Sir, could you please turn to tab 30.  You should have

11     Resolution 1019 of the Security Council, 65 ter 5014 before you?

12        A.   Yes, I do, Ms. Bolton.

13        Q.   And this resolution moves forward in time a bit to the 9th of

14     November, 1995.  This is a -- I'm going to refer you to specific

15     passages, sir.

16             It starts in the first two paragraphs, in particular, paragraph 2

17     with the expression of grave concerns of reports, including by the

18     representative of the Secretary-General of the United Nations of grave

19     violations of international humanitarian law and of human rights in and

20     around Srebrenica and in the areas of Banja Luka and Sanski Most,

21     including reports of mass murder, unlawful detention, forced labour, rape

22     and deportation of civilians.

23             And then looking at particular paragraphs 8 and 9, numbered

24     paragraphs on page 2 and 3, I should also include paragraph 2.  In

25     paragraph 2, there is a demand that the Bosnian Serb party give immediate

Page 7506

 1     and unimpeded access to representatives of the United Nations High

 2     Commission for Refugees and ICRC to persons displaced and/or detained or

 3     reported missing from Srebrenica, Zepa, and the regions of Banja Luka and

 4     Sanski Most.

 5             Was the United Nations Security Council or you -- well, was the

 6     United Nations Security Council, to the best of your knowledge, receiving

 7     any kind of explanation from the Bosnian Serbs as to the fate of the men

 8     who had been identified as missing in the previous statement of the

 9     Security Council?

10        A.   Yes, it was.  In most instances, it was saying that, in fact,

11     such persons had never been either in contact or taken prisoner by the

12     Bosnian Serb forces.  In other words, it denied that it ever had access

13     to those people and that presumably that had, somehow, left the territory

14     in question.

15             In a few instance, there might have been commentary about

16     fighting units, but by and large, there was denial that such individuals

17     were ever taken prisoner.

18        Q.   Turning to paragraph 8, there is a demand that all states, "In

19     particular areas" -- sorry:

20             "In particular, those in the region of the former Yugoslavia and

21     all parties to the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, comply fully and in

22     good faith with the obligations contained in paragraph 4 of Resolution

23     827 (1993) to cooperate fully with the international tribunal ..."

24             It goes on from there.

25             And then paragraph 9:

Page 7507

 1             "Demands that all parties, and, in particular, the Bosnian Serb

 2     party, refrain from any action intended to destroy, alter, conceal or

 3     damage any evidence of violations of international humanitarian law and

 4     that they preserve such evidence."

 5             Based on the information you were receiving with respect to the

 6     Security Council, had the Security Council been receiving any information

 7     that the Bosnian Serb party had, up to that point in time, destroyed,

 8     altered, or concealed or damaged evidence?

 9        A.   Ms. Bolton, the resolution that you referring to, and the passage

10     that you have read, are actually dealing, I think, with two related but

11     separate items.  One of them is, of course, concealing evidence of crimes

12     or concealing, in fact, the very existence of the individuals who had

13     left the enclaves and/or who may have been, in fact, taken prisoner by

14     the Serbian forces, and, of course, the fate of those forces.

15             The second point was also a particular point of discussion at

16     Dayton.  I remember this was during the time of Dayton, which it appeared

17     that, actually during the negotiation itself, ethnic cleansing, in fact,

18     had been reinvigorated in some areas under the control of the so-called

19     Bosnian Serb or Pale Serb forces.  And it seemed and the reason, of

20     course, this is memorable is because it seemed that while there was a

21     discussion of the territorial delineation of Bosnia, that is the internal

22     territorial delineation of Bosnia, there seemed to be an effort to

23     consolidate certain areas where ethnic cleansing had been commited into

24     what, in effect, would be defined as Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   Okay.  I don't think you answered my question with respect to

Page 7508

 1     whether the Security Council had been receiving any information about the

 2     concealment of evidence or damage of evidence.

 3        A.   Yes, it had.  Certainly starting with the satellite photographs

 4     and then we actually started to receive information, that is we, let me

 5     emphasize that again, the mission to Bosnia and Herzegovina and, in this

 6     case, the UN Security Council of, in fact, graves being moved, mass

 7     graves being relocated, or in some ways disturbed.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Could that document be marked as the next exhibit,

10     please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

12     given an exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2508.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

15             Yes, Madam Bolton.

16             MS. BOLTON:

17        Q.   Finally, sir, I'd like to turn to Dayton, which we have talked

18     about to some extent, so I don't have too many questions.

19             First of all, I think you already answered this question, but

20     I'll ask it again:  Whether you participated directly in those

21     discussions?

22        A.   I participated in Dayton as well as to the events, that is

23     negotiations leading up to Dayton.

24        Q.   And dealing with just Dayton, could you tell us whether the

25     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia participated in those talks?

Page 7509

 1        A.   Yes, they did, Ms. Bolton.

 2        Q.   Who was their representative?

 3        A.   The head of the delegation which represented both the FRY, that

 4     is Serbia and Montenegro, but also the Pale Serbs, was

 5     Slobodan Milosevic.

 6        Q.   Were either General Ratko Mladic or Radovan Karadzic in

 7     attendance?

 8        A.   No, they were not, Ms. Bolton.

 9        Q.   Was any explanation offered as to why neither the commander of

10     the Main Staff of the Bosnian Serb Army or the president of the RS were

11     in attendance [sic]?

12        A.   There seemed to be two considerations --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The question as presently framed assumes that

15     there was some inquiry with regard to why they were not present.  Whoever

16     was at the meeting, was at the meeting.  In the absence of a question

17     that directs that there may have been such an inquiry, it assumes either

18     a fact not in evidence, which if there was an inquiry, or, alternatively,

19     this is an question with regard to its relevance.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

21             MS. BOLTON:

22        Q.   Could you answer the question, sir?

23        A.   Yes.  There were two considerations.  One of them was that, in

24     fact, there was agreement reached by, as I have referred to Serbian

25     forces, in this case let's speak of the Pale Serbs in Belgrade, that, in

Page 7510

 1     fact, the -- that the position of the Serbian force, as a whole, would be

 2     represented by Slobodan Milosevic.

 3             Number two, at the time, we also had, of course, the issue of the

 4     war crimes that were being committed and -- and the positions taken by

 5     the ICTY first probable and then actual indictments.

 6        Q.   Had either of those men been indicted by the ICTY at that time?

 7        A.   Yes, they had.

 8        Q.   You have already averted to the fact that there was some

 9     discussion, I believe, about the war crimes commission, the ICTY, at the

10     Dayton.  Can you tell me what position the representatives - sorry - of

11     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Mr. Milosevic in particular, took on

12     that issue at Dayton?

13        A.   Yes, Ms. Bolton.  We were informed by Ambassador

14     Richard Holbrooke that, in fact, President Milosevic and his delegation

15     wished to, in fact, discuss the potential immunity, amnesty.  We're not

16     exactly sure what terminology would be applicable here for acts committed

17     during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18             We -- at least I personally rejected that as member of that

19     delegation.  The -- the issue appeared for several days during the

20     discussions and then, in fact, under, I believe, even the direct

21     intervention of the ICTY, was removed from the agenda.

22        Q.   And how about the ICJ case, was it discussed at all?

23        A.   That was discussed even more extensively, presumably because it

24     was something within the authority of Bosnia and Herzegovina to undertake

25     on its own.  And there was a demand by President Milosevic, Slobodan

Page 7511

 1     Milosevic, that the case, in fact, be terminated in order for him to

 2     proceed with the signing of the Dayton Accord protocols.

 3        Q.   And you've already told us that that case proceeded beyond

 4     Dayton.  I take it you didn't agree to -- to that demand?

 5        A.   That was a rather testy moment and continued for -- it was, in

 6     fact, the last point of the discussions, and at one point in time, that

 7     is the -- I was under pressure personally, as well as delegation of

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina to, in fact, drop the case.  Ultimately,

 9     Mr. Milosevic had to be pressured once we, in fact, stood firm to drop

10     his demand as a precondition to the signing of the Dayton protocols.

11        Q.   Could you tell us whether there were any members of the military

12     in attendance at Dayton?

13        A.   I would not be 100 percent certain, but I believe there were.

14     There were no uniforms, if I remember correctly, being worn, which was --

15     this was a military base at the United States of America that the talks

16     were being held at.  So I do not remember specifically whether uniforms

17     were being worn, but I believe there were members of the military.

18        Q.   Do you know if there were members of the VJ or the Bosnian Serb

19     forces --

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Objection, leading.

21             MS. BOLTON:

22        Q.   Sorry.  Do you know what military, what army they were members

23     of?

24        A.   I recall no members of the Republika Srpska military being

25     present.

Page 7512

 1        Q.   Okay, sir.  We had talked about the -- just changing topics

 2     slightly here, sir, about the removal of the remaining sanctions against

 3     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and you told us -- you already

 4     identified for us one of the resolutions by which that was accomplished.

 5     And I just wished to show you another resolution of 1021, which is 65 ter

 6     6781.  You should find it at tab 31 of your binder?

 7        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  6781.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, 6781.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             You have the indulgence, ma'am.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, that's the document, sir.

13        Q.   Again, can you just confirm, sir, that this is a true copy of a

14     resolution passed by the Security Council on the 22nd November, 1995?

15        A.   Yes, it is, Ms. Bolton.

16             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.

17     Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May it please be given an

19     exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2509.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

22             Madam Bolton.

23             MS. BOLTON:

24        Q.   Going back to Dayton, sir, was there any discussion of the

25     alleged massacres that had taken place at Srebrenica at Dayton?

Page 7513

 1        A.   Yes, there was, Ms. Bolton, and, of course, this came on several

 2     occasions, both in the context of its human, that is implications for

 3     international humanitarian law, and also in its context of the

 4     territorial delineation within Bosnia and Herzegovina.  At the very

 5     beginning, we were told that any efforts to preserve Srebrenica and Zepa

 6     within the territory of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina would be

 7     deemed to be, in effect, an end to the talks.

 8        Q.   Can you tell me, sir, you indicated there was some discussion of

 9     the events at Srebrenica.  Apart from the discussion you've just told us

10     about, were there any other discussions at Dayton about what had

11     allegedly happened at Srebrenica?

12        A.   Yes.  There were, of course, discussions about what happened and

13     how it occurred.  But most importantly, the focus was to deal with the

14     individuals that, in fact, may have been unaccounted for.

15             Again, Ms. Bolton, I emphasise for even many months after Dayton,

16     we continued to receive reports that maybe there were survivors of

17     Srebrenica, and that were held within various areas within Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina, but also within Serbia and Montenegro.  So our focus there

19     was very much for a complete accounting of those individuals and

20     particularly also the individuals from Zepa, which I should not neglect

21     to mention here.

22             As to -- actually the events of -- of Srebrenica, in the context

23     of looking back how it came about, I certainly took the position that

24     Srebrenica should continue to be dealt with as a safe area, with all the

25     rights and obligations considered that safe area until, in fact, we had a

Page 7514

 1     full accounting and until, hopefully, Srebrenica had been restored to its

 2     original inhabitants and population.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry to interrupt, Madam Bolton.  Just before

 4     there screen disappears.

 5             Mr. Sacirbey, you said in answer to a previous question, I am

 6     referring you to page 46, line 25, you said:

 7             "At the very beginning, we were told that any efforts to preserve

 8     Srebrenica and Zepa within the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina would

 9     deemed to be, in effect, an end to the talks."

10             Who told you?

11             THE WITNESS:  Ambassador Richard Holbrooke.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what did he mean by, "an end to the talks"?

13             THE WITNESS:  He meant that that was an unacceptable condition

14     for the Dayton process to continue, and I assume, but again, I have no

15     firsthand knowledge that he was relaying the views of President

16     Slobodan Milosevic, but it may have been otherwise.  We engaged in -- if

17     Your Honour doesn't mind, I would also like to emphasise it was a very

18     lengthy and very difficult discussion about how to retain Gorazde, which

19     was a third enclave within the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20     That was one, of course, of first delineation but also practical

21     considerations because there was a view as to maybe how roads would

22     connect that enclave with the rest of the Federation of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Bolton.

25             MS. BOLTON:

Page 7515

 1        Q.   Sir, could I refer to tab 33 of the binder before you, please, 65

 2     ter 8877.

 3        A.   I think I'll there, Ms. Bolton.

 4        Q.   And, sir, this is a letter that appears to have been sent by

 5     Vladislav Jovanovic, charge d'affaires, to Sergey Lavrov, president of

 6     the Security Council, in New York on 18th December, 1995.

 7             Could you tell me whether you received a copy of this document or

 8     your mission received a copy of this document at that time?

 9        A.   I'm not sure.  I would probably need to review it a little more

10     carefully since I don't see a distribution mark, and I haven't had a

11     chance to review the contents of it, Ms. Bolton.

12        Q.   If you would take a moment then and review it, please.

13        A.   Thank you.

14             Yes, I am now familiar with this.

15        Q.   When you say you're now familiar with it, can you tell me whether

16     this is the first time you've read this document?

17        A.   No, I'm familiar with the contents of these -- of the references

18     made to on the second and third page.

19             I cannot recall whether I have seen this information exactly in

20     this form through this report, to be very honest with you.

21        Q.   Just looking at the first page of the document, there's --

22     appears to be written on letterhead that says permanent mission of the

23     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to the United Nations.

24             Can you tell me, Mr. Jovanovic is he somebody that you knew at

25     the federal republic mission in the United Nations?

Page 7516

 1        A.   I believe he had, within a few previous months, taken over as the

 2     "charge" of the permanent mission of the FRY Serbia and Montenegro to the

 3     United Nations in New York.

 4        Q.   Dealing with page 2, numbered paragraph 3, there's a indication

 5     that the events in Srebrenica, I'm looking first at paragraph 12 and by

 6     inference then incorporating those into paragraph 3.  The events at

 7     Srebrenica attracted the attention of the world media, and then further

 8     in the paragraph, there's reference to news agencies from CNN, CBS, BBC,

 9     RAI, Paris Match, Reuters, AFP, France, Antenna 2, and Dutch TV, and

10     others having reports on Srebrenica.

11             Can you confirm whether that's true?

12        A.   First of all, I'm not aware at all of how much access any of

13     these media houses had to Srebrenica.  In fact, quite to the contrary.

14     All I recall is one propaganda film of General Ratko Mladic and his

15     forces.

16             What -- the reason I remember this document is the particular

17     emphasis that, number one, this was propaganda and also, actually, in

18     paragraph 1 where it refers to some sort of presumed negotiation between

19     the quote/unquote Republika Srpska forces and the local Muslim

20     authorities.  Certainly no negotiations, as far as I am aware of, were

21     held by any representatives of the local population unless they, somehow,

22     were made de facto representatives at the moment.

23        Q.   And the statement that the paragraph begins with, that -- to the

24     effect this propaganda ploy, referring to the previous paragraph,

25     attracted the attention of the world media.

Page 7517

 1             Can you comment on whether that was accurate?

 2        A.   Yes.  We took great exception to this -- to this proposition that

 3     did not just come out in this letter but came out through several

 4     communications, including right into Dayton, that, in fact, what we were

 5     dealing with here was not a mass murder but that we were dealing with,

 6     somehow, some sort of staged disappearance of people.

 7        Q.   Okay.  You're getting a little ahead of me, sir.  My question

 8     was:  Was there coverage in the world media of the -- what you described

 9     as the mass murder at Srebrenica?

10        A.   Yes, there was.

11        Q.   And now if we could look at paragraph 2 which says:

12             "Immediately before the takeover of Srebrenica by the Army of the

13     Republika Srpska, disorders and conflicts within the Bosnian Muslim Army

14     in that enclave erupted.  In the clashes that ensued, those units which

15     wanted to continue fighting were mercilessly killing those who wanted to

16     surrender and were in favour of cease-fire.  Since the units of the Army

17     of Republika Srpska did not have access to those areas at that time, it

18     was only after the fall of the enclave, that the bodies of Muslim

19     fighters and civilian who died as a result of the infighting, were

20     discovered.  This situation was abused by the Bosnian Muslim government

21     to further its propaganda campaign on the alleged mass killings and

22     disappearances of the Muslims from the area."

23             My question for you, sir, is:  During the Dayton negotiations had

24     President Milosevic or anyone else associated with Mr. Milosevic's

25     delegation ever suggested that the men of Srebrenica had killed each

Page 7518

 1     other in infighting?

 2        A.   I want to be very accurate on this point.  There were numerous,

 3     numerous, discussions during Dayton.  They were both public, and I say

 4     public in the sense that they were more formal sessions.  Let me make

 5     sure I'm -- public is not the accurate word.  There were formal sessions

 6     and there were informal sessions.

 7             During the more formal sessions, such assertions, as contained in

 8     this paragraph, had been made.  I very much remember this particular

 9     point being emphasised in the time-frame immediately following

10     Srebrenica.  To be more accurate, August, September.

11             In the context of Dayton, in fact, I believe that

12     President Milosevic, himself, was not as inclined to pursue this line of

13     reasoning, obviously knowing that there were representatives of the

14     United States and other western allies which had direct evidence to the

15     contrary.

16        Q.   And was any evidence presented at Dayton to suggest that, in

17     fact, the men of Srebrenica had been killed through infighting?

18        A.   None whatsoever.  And to be fair, President Milosevic's whole

19     focus seemed to be on gaining access of these two enclaves.

20             MS. BOLTON:  I have no further questions for the witness,

21     Your Honour.  Except could this document please be marked as the next

22     exhibit.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

24     please be given an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document will become

Page 7519

 1     Exhibit P2510.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 3             Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, Your Honour.  I made a request to be able to

 5     commence my cross-examination, I believe at the next sitting, which would

 6     be, as I understand it, Monday, the 29th.  I have taken a look at the

 7     schedule and understand that we have further sittings by video-conference

 8     for the 29th, 30th and 1st of July.  And I request that I be allowed to

 9     commence my cross-examination on that Monday (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I am asking as a matter of a couple of things,

13     first of all, I would like to be able to have my cross-examination in one

14     continuous session so that we're focussed on all of the matters.  And,

15     secondly, I would be in a position, I think to be -- quite frankly I

16     would be in a position to have a tighter and crisper examination if I get

17     the time to be able to deal with this -- the last proceedings of the day.

18             MS. BOLTON:  May be heard on this issue, Your Honours?

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

21             MS. BOLTON:  The Prosecution is opposed to my friend's

22     suggestions for a couple of reasons.

23             First is that counsel is in attendance in New York to assist him

24     and we should make use of their time.  Second is that, obviously, there

25     are costs associated with having the videolink, and we actually have a

Page 7520

 1     working videolink today.  For the first time in the proceedings, we

 2     haven't been interrupted by it.  We should take advantage of it.

 3             Thirdly, my friend has taken -- has had ample notice of when

 4     Mr. Sacirbey would be attending because of the -- sorry.  Because of the

 5     manner in which he was going to be attending, the videolink issue, and so

 6     should have a crisp cross-examination ready at this point.

 7             The other issue, Your Honour, if in fact -- well, regardless of

 8     whether he is going to start today or not is this:  We know he has put us

 9     on notice that he intends to cross-examine Mr. Sacirbey on allegations

10     that have been made against him in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The -- in the

11     decision in Krstic, there had been a ruling that you can't -- there has

12     to be some substance to the allegations.  There has to be something more

13     than unsubstantiated hearsay, and at this point, we don't have any

14     information, the Prosecution doesn't have any information that would rise

15     above that level.  If my friend has documents that he wants to put to

16     Mr. Sacirbey, in particular on that issue, we would like the opportunity

17     to see those documents beforehand, and I'm going to need to consult with

18     his counsel, because I don't know -- I don't have access to any of the

19     materials in relation to those allegations and wouldn't be in a position

20     to know when to object, unless I have the opportunity to review those

21     documents and speak to his counsel.

22             I understand there were issues in the extradition proceedings,

23     with respect to some documents that were tendered, and, again, I can't

24     answer any of that without the opportunity to speak to Mr. Sacirbey's

25     counsel.  Not suggesting, obviously, any communication with the witness

Page 7521

 1     on these issues, but simply his counsel and, of course, in the manner of

 2     cross-examining in any event, I need to have a copy of the documents so I

 3     know if it is being fairly put to the witness and can follow along.  My

 4     friend had indicated previously he would provide us with documents on

 5     Monday.  We have yet to receive those documents, and I'm sure he intends

 6     to stand by his indication, but I would like to ask that those be ordered

 7     to be provided to us now.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me understand where are you going,

 9     Madam Bolton.

10             What you have now been telling us about the allegations against

11     Mr. Sacirbey and the need for -- by the Prosecution to have documents

12     that are going to be used for cross-examination and the need for

13     Prosecution to consult with Mr. Sacirbey's counsel, all that seems to go

14     against your opposition to your postponement because if he starts doing

15     that now, you haven't had the opportunity to look at those documents, to

16     consult with counsel in New York.  So your two points --

17             MS. BOLTON:  I understand.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- that opposes the first point that you made

19     about saving time, technology working, and what have you.

20             MS. BOLTON:  I would be asking that he not be permitted to go

21     into those areas in cross-examination today because we have not received

22     the documents as of yet.  But, surely, he has told us he is going to be

23     approximately two days in cross-examination.  He can start his

24     cross-examination on the other areas that he intends to ask him about.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have any response, Mr. Guy-Smith?

Page 7522

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think there are a number of different questions

 2     that have been raised by the Prosecution's response.

 3             The Prosecution will obtain and receive those documents that I

 4     intend to use to cross-examine Mr. Sacirbey in advance of the

 5     cross-examination.  I have no difficulty getting them those documents and

 6     giving them those documents.

 7             With regard to the consultation as between the Prosecution and

 8     counsel in New York, I'm not sure that that necessarily flows from the

 9     order that the Chamber has made with regard to this matter, unless the

10     Prosecution now is standing in the shoes of Mr. Sacirbey's counsel.  They

11     would have, quite frankly -- they would have, quite frankly, no interest

12     with regard to that particular issue to the extent that there are any

13     concerns, Mr. Sacirbey is well-represented by his counsel.  That's why he

14     has counsel.  That's why the Court made the decision that he, unlike any

15     other witness in this trial, would be afforded the opportunity to have

16     counsel present with him so that his rights could be protected with

17     regard to any incrimination that he may engage in, if such a thing

18     occurs.

19             So I think there's a bit of a both logical conceptual as well as

20     legal disconnect between the argument that has been just made by

21     Ms. Bolton with regard to that particular question.  And the reality of

22     the situation we're in and the purpose for which Mr. Sacirbey has counsel

23     present and the [indiscernible] purpose for which the Prosecution is here

24     which is independent of Mr. Sacirbey, none of us - neither party - has

25     any property in the witness, and since his rights can be obviously ably

Page 7523

 1     represented and looked after by counsel, I don't think that is really an

 2     appropriate concern.

 3             I would say the same thing I've said before, and I would greatly

 4     appreciate to be able to engage my cross-examination in a single,

 5     continuous session or sessions, as the Prosecution has been able to

 6     engage in, in their direct of this gentleman, in a continuous session.  I

 7     don't believe that anybody foresaw that his testimony would take the

 8     period of time that it took.  I understand there were some difficulties

 9     technically.  I understand there were some difficulties technically that

10     arose.  However, I did not expect that I would be, on a Friday afternoon

11     at this late hour, all of a sudden beginning my examination of

12     Mr. Sacirbey.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you --

14             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, may be permitted to speak, please?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm afraid no, Mr. Sacirbey.  Just hold on.  You

16     might, maybe, a little later but not just now.

17             Do you have any submissions to make on Madam Bolton's point that

18     you are on notice, technology is working today for the first time, there

19     is a need to save time, there's a question of costs, that is not to take

20     into account to set up all there.

21             Do you have any response to those?

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I have no way -- I don't have any idea, to

23     be perfectly honest with you, how appropriately to respond to the issues

24     of cost whatsoever because we will be engaging in an expenditure of cost

25     by virtue of the fact that we will be having further videolinks, which

Page 7524

 1     have now been scheduled for three days, so I don't know whether or not,

 2     by virtue of being able to stop right now, we may be well saving costs.

 3     I don't know.  I have no idea.  I just don't know.  I don't know, but I

 4     have no idea -- I don't know what the costs are that are involved.

 5             With regard to the fact that it is technically working today for

 6     the first time, I understand that the glitches are worked out, and we are

 7     now in a situation where it is going to proceed appropriately and

 8     properly.

 9             I really -- I'm really asking for the Chamber to seriously

10     consider my request.  I think that it will make for a much better record,

11     trial, and situation; and I don't think it really offends, really, in any

12     fashion whatsoever, the speed with which things are going, the economy of

13     time, or the usage of time.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

15                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, I just was -- since October, each

17     time the Prosecution has requested that we accommodate them, no matter

18     what it may be, we have.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey, you -- you wanted to say something?

20     It's an exceptional circumstances.  Ordinarily, I shouldn't be hearing,

21     but I would like hear to you have to say.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, first, I would like to ask that

23     my counsel, Peter Guirguis, be allowed to enter the room because we are

24     now crossing into the issue of cross-examination.  Second of all, is that

25     permitted, Your Honour?

Page 7525

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you want him to come in, in the place of

 2     Madam Corominas.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Ms. Corominas.  That would be fine, although for

 4     this brief period, if it is possible for them to be here, both, that's

 5     fine.  If you otherwise insist on only one, then it should be

 6     Mr. Guirguis, since we are now crossing into cross-examination issues.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Whatever is easiest for the Chamber.  At this

 8     time, we have no objection to both being in the room at this time.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may call Mr. Guirguis in, Mr. Sacirbey.

10             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour, and I will try to

11     be brief on the rest of it.  I understand the urgency on the matter.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, there are some presumptions that are

14     being made as to why I would like to have counsel here, and they may be,

15     in fact, prejudicial to the issue; and second of all, I have been advised

16     on numerous occasions that I should not appear before this Court period

17     because it can only serve against my interest.  So if I wish to avoid any

18     sort of incrimination or, in any way, some sort of other unfavourable

19     result for myself, I should not have appeared in the first place.  I

20     would like the Court to know that, in fact, I'm here very much as a

21     willing witness, and believe it to be a part of my responsibilities to

22     this Court, to justice, and to the victims, as well as the positions that

23     I have served in the past.  And if I may, I will just read very briefly a

24     short statement that I made on this point.

25             Your Honours, during my initial appearance and, of course, today

Page 7526

 1     before the Court, I was surprised by the opposition so raised by Defence

 2     counsel to the presence of my legal counsel along my side --

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't know whether this is necessarily an

 6     appropriate submission considering the issue at hand.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Can you just hold on.

 8             I did say it is exceptional, he shouldn't have been heard, but I

 9     would like to hear him.

10             Yes, Mr. Sacirbey.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, as the Court is aware, I had hoped the

12     opportunity to actually testify viva voce in The Hague and be responsive

13     to this Court's direct request for my appearances in The Hague.  My

14     counsel's presence in the Court and viewing gallery, at that time, could

15     have also been accommodated, consistent with the rules. (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19     obstructions to my appearances before the Court have a political and

20     legal character in which my counsel has been engaged --

21             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour --

22             THE WITNESS:  So a long and complex set of procedures --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.

24             MS. BOLTON:  Mr. Sacirbey, we are now into issues that should not

25     be happening in public.  We're going need to redact the record, and if he

Page 7527

 1     is going to go on, on this note, then we would need to go into closed

 2     session.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't understand why that is being raised

 4     unless there is something that we -- since I initially thought that this

 5     was an appropriate thing to be done notice first place, but since he is

 6     giving a statement, I don't understand why Ms. Bolton is rising, at this

 7     point in time, in the absence of there being something that the Defence

 8     knows nothing at all about, and by that I mean nothing at all about.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What issues are these that require us to go into

10     private session?

11             MS. BOLTON:  These would be issues -- Court's indulgence.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MS. BOLTON:  These are issues that were the subject of

15     confidential filings, Your Honour.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, did you say something, Madam Bolton.

18             MS. BOLTON:  My concern was about issues in confidential filings,

19     Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

21             Mr. Sacirbey --

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, Your Honour once again perhaps I'm

23     missing a point here.  I know of no confidential filings as they relate

24     to Mr. Sacirbey.  There may well be, but I don't know of them.  The only

25     filing that I know of, with regard to Mr. Sacirbey, happens to be the

Page 7528

 1     Prosecution's motion for advance filing on the scope of permissible

 2     cross-examination which was a public filing.  Apparently, there is some

 3     other documentation that is being referred to.  I don't know what it is.

 4     But this filing is a public filing and is the only filing I know with

 5     regard to Mr. Sacirbey.  If there are confidential filings that we're not

 6     privy to, then I would appreciate, before proceeding any further, to have

 7     some notice of what those may be.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Sacirbey, I'd like to just say something to

 9     Mr. Sacirbey before I come back to you.

10             I had anticipated that you were going to talk about this -- how

11     your situation would affect whether we can carry on with the case now or

12     whether we should postpone.  But you seem to have a prepared statement

13     there which you want to make, which doesn't seem to have any relevance

14     whatsoever to the request for a postponement.

15             Now I will give you an example of what I thought you were going

16     to contribute to this debate about -- something about your own

17     availability, depending on your commitments that side.  And I do not

18     think that that statement that you're wanting to read is apposite to the

19     issues before us right now.  But right now, we want to talk about whether

20     to postpone or to go on with the cross-examination.  I'm sorry.  I have

21     given you a false hope, but I think I must stop you here.  I hope you do

22     understand.

23             MR. GUIRGUIS:  Your Honour, Your Honour, this is Peter Guirguis,

24     returning into the room, with the Court's permission now, and if I may

25     address the Court on the availability issue.  I understand that the

Page 7529

 1     court's next sitting will be on June 29th through 1st of July.  And I

 2     wanted to let the Court know that I will not be available on those dates.

 3     I tried to free myself on those dates upon hearing that the testimony

 4     would continue, but I'm actually going to be travelling for a hearing on

 5     the 1st of July on the West coast of the United States and must prepare

 6     for that and travel to that, so I don't know if the Court is planning --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             MR. GUIRGUIS:  [Overlapping speakers] ... the following week of

 9     July --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guirguis, the Court cannot make accomodation

11     to that extent.  Obviously, if you are not available, there is another

12     counsel sitting next to you, if not so, if Mr. Sacirbey needs two

13     counsel, he can engage in other counsel.  I don't think that even in your

14     domestic jurisdiction a situation like this would be taken into account,

15     taking into account your availability and not the availability of the

16     witness for purposes of the programme of the Court.

17             So I'm sorry, I cannot take that into account, I'm sorry.

18             I think we should go back to addressing the question of

19     postponement.  Have parties finished with their submissions?

20     Madam Bolton are you finished?

21             MS. BOLTON:  The only thing I wanted to address was the issue

22     that my friend raised about, first of all, indicating that he does intend

23     to give us the documents.  I would like to know when.  And secondly, the

24     issue with respect to communicating about those documents with counsel.

25     I had understood Your Honours' previous ruling to be that Mr. Sacirbey's

Page 7530

 1     counsel wouldn't have any standing before this Court.  And they wouldn't

 2     be, therefore, raising objections.  It would be incumbent on me to raise

 3     those objections, and if what is the case, then that's why I would like

 4     the opportunity to speak to them.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did the Court say it is incumbent for you to raise

 6     those objections?

 7             MS. BOLTON:  What you had said is in previous discussions with

 8     Mr. Guirguis that he had no standing before the Court and so --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

10             MS. BOLTON:  -- that's what I understood from it, and maybe I

11     misunderstood what Your Honour meant.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did I say that you are going to raise objections

13     on his behalf?

14             MS. BOLTON:  No, but if -- somebody has to.  If there is

15     something objectionable asked about the documents, I'm not going to be in

16     a position to make an objection.  I'm not understanding, Your Honour.

17     I'm sorry.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I haven't been told why they are next to Mr.

19     Sacirbey.  They said they would like to be allowed to sit there, that's

20     fine.

21             MS. BOLTON:  No --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They're not asking for any standing.  I thought

23     that they are to give Mr. Sacirbey legal advice, as and when he needs it.

24     We have heard today, and we've heard before, even in the motions, about

25     these allegations against Mr. Sacirbey and his right to -- to not

Page 7531

 1     self-incriminate, and I thought that's the reason for their presence.

 2     And all they have to is to say, You don't have to answer that question.

 3     That's it.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  I have misunderstood, I think then, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  But I just wanted to emphasise that I

 6     never, ever, said that you may ask the questions that Mr. Guirguis would

 7     have asked because, indeed, he doesn't have any standing before this

 8     Court.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  No, I think I -- I understand --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You sort of extended my --

11             MS. BOLTON:  I think I misunderstood the effect of Your Honour's

12     ruling, and now you've clarified it for me, and I apologise.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are most welcome.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Request is --

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

18             We are going to postpone now.  Mr. Sacirbey, I am going to

19     repeat, particularly now that we are going to be postponing for a fairly

20     lengthy time.  I'm going to repeat the ritual that I have been repeating

21     to you every day:  You may not discuss the case with anybody during the

22     period of postponement.  The case is going to stand postponed to the 29th

23     of June, we'll have to make arrangements -- quarter past 2.00 in the

24     afternoon, same time as you have been coming.  You will be advised of the

25     courtroom.

Page 7532

 1             Court adjourned until the 29th of June --

 2             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, just the issue of redaction

 3     I have raised --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, I'm sure they will give me something to

 5     redact.  I'll give you something sign, sorry.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Okay, thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             Court stands adjourned until 29th of June, in the afternoon,

 9     quarter past 2.00.

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.28 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of June,

12                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.