Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7811

 1                           Thursday, 2 July 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  And good morning, Your Honours.  This

10     is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             And may we have the appearances for today, please, starting with

13     the Prosecution.

14             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon and Inger

15     du Ru for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And for the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning to all.  On behalf of the Perisic Defence, Tina Drolec, Daniela

19     Tasic, Milos Androvic, Colleen Rohan, Gregor Guy-Smith, Novak Lukic.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

21             Good morning sir.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you please make the declaration.

24             Can somebody please help the witness.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 7812

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.  You may proceed.

 5             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             Your Honour, before I begin my examination, I have one request

 7     for the Trial Chamber.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Carry on.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Something that I've already discussed with the

10     Defence.  It's simply this.  Mr. Nikolic will be testifying today

11     pursuant to Rule 92 ter, and I would respectfully request formal leave of

12     the Trial Chamber to give a Rule 65 ter number to a supplementary

13     statement of Mr. Nikolic which was produced just two months ago for the

14     Popovic Trial Chamber, and the statement is dated the 16th of April,

15     2009.  So because it was only produced recently it was not previously

16     placed on the Prosecution's 65 ter list.  It was admitted during

17     Mr. Nikolic's testimony in the Popovic case as court exhibit number 2.

18     So I would respectfully seek leave of the chamber to add this

19     supplementary statement to the Prosecution's Rule 65 ter list so that it

20     can be part of his 92 ter package.  I've discussed this with the Defence,

21     and they do not object to my request.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Saxon.

23             Just a little oversight on the part of the Bench, may the record

24     please show that we're sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis today as Judge

25     David is not available, busy in another case.  Thank you very much.

Page 7813

 1             Mr. Lukic, do you confirm.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.  I'm in a

 3     position to confirm.  We agree for this document to be marked as a 65 ter

 4     document and become part of the 92 ter package.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 6             You may.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Then Mr. Nikolic's

 8     supplementary statement dated the 16th of April, 2009, will be given the

 9     65 ter number of 09558.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.  You may proceed.

11                           WITNESS:  MOMIR NIKOLIC

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Examination by Mr. Saxon:

14        Q.   Good morning, sir.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   For the record, is your name Momir Nikolic?

17        A.   That's right, Momir Nikolic.

18        Q.   And were you born in the municipality of Bratunac, Republika

19     Srpska, what is now Republika Srpska, on 20 February 1955?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.

21        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, in April of this year, did you testify in the trial

22     of Vujadin Popovic, case number IT-05-88-T, at this Tribunal?

23        A.   That's right.

24        Q.   And during the past several days with the assistance of an

25     interpreter, have you had the opportunity to review portions of your

Page 7814

 1     testimony and related exhibits?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right.

 3        Q.   And during your review of portions of that prior testimony, did

 4     you observe some mistakes in the English language -- in the English

 5     transcript?

 6        A.   Yes.  There were a number of minor errors, for the most part, in

 7     relation to the translation.

 8        Q.   I'm go to go over those errors with you right now to correct

 9     them.

10             MR. SAXON:  If we could please call up 65 ter 9556, please, which

11     contains portions of the transcript of Mr. Nikolic's testimony from 21

12     April 2009.  And if we could turn to page 18 in e-court.

13        Q.   On this page of the English --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Saxon, please.

15             MR. SAXON:  I apologise.

16        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, at this point in your testimony, you were describing

17     some of your activities of the 11th of July, 1995.  And on this page,

18     which is page 32914 of the transcript, on --

19             MR. SAXON:  If we could scroll down, please, to the bottom of the

20     page.

21        Q.   And starting at line 24, you were asked a question by counsel.

22     It says:  "And just briefly, sir, who was the member of your command?

23     Because you had orally informed a member of your command on the evening

24     of the 11th about the number of Muslim men in Potocari?"

25             And starting in line 25 of that page.

Page 7815

 1             And then if we can continue on to the next page, you said:  "That

 2     evening, I informed members of the command who were present in the

 3     Bratunac Brigade HQ, these are staff officers who were part of the corps

 4     command."

 5             And I'm stopping on line 2 of page 32915.

 6             Mr. Nikolic, that reference to the corps command, is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   No.  In this context, this statement is false.  We are talking

 9     about the officers of Bratunac Brigade and we're talking about the

10     command of the Bratunac Brigade.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.

12             MR. SAXON:  Can we please move now to page 23 in e-court, which

13     should be, yes, page 32919 of the transcript.

14        Q.   And, Mr. Nikolic, on lines 2 through 7 on this page, you are

15     describing a conversation that you had with Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric

16     after the meeting at the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac on 13th of July, 1995.

17             And then, from lines 8 to 16, you say the following:

18             "One more thing happened at that time is the following, but, of

19     course, it took place after the meeting, and that is that I had a

20     conversation with two officers from the Dutch battalion.  They asked me,

21     'Mr. Nikolic, what is going to happen next?'  I told them, 'Everything is

22     settled, everything is regulated, the buses will be here, and you go back

23     to Potocari and wait for the buses.'  This would be briefly the summary

24     of my conversation with Mr. Popovic."

25             And then in the next -- beginning of the next sentence on line 14

Page 7816

 1     it begins:

 2             "Before the meeting, Mr.  Petar Sumljic was also present there,"

 3     and Sumljic in the transcript is spelled S-u-m-l-j-i-c.  Is the last name

 4     Sumljic on line 14 correct, Mr. Nikolic?

 5        A.   No, it's not.

 6        Q.   What is the correct name that should be there?

 7        A.   Uscumlic.

 8        Q.   And for the record that name is spelled U-s-c-u-m-l-i-c.

 9             Can we move to page 36 in e-court, and this should be page 32932

10     of the transcript.

11             Mr. Nikolic, in lines 2 to 5 of this -- on this page, counsel is

12     asking about a lawyer named Zlatan Celanovic, who is attached to the

13     Bratunac Brigade military police platoon.  And then counsel asked you to

14     tell a little bit about Mr. Celanovic's position and his duties?

15             Starting at line 6 and continuing on to line 10, in the beginning

16     of your response, you say:  "I can.  The light infantry brigade, that is

17     to say, my brigade, was a light infantry brigade.  In terms of

18     establishment it had two functions:  The intelligence and security one.

19     And there were war [sic] organs respectively."

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't see the word "war."

21             MR. SAXON:  I stand corrected.  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

22     You're correct.

23        Q.   "And there were organs" -- I'm sorry I should have said:  "And

24     there were organs respectively.  Under law, I, as the person representing

25     the intelligence organ in a light infantry brigade was not an authorised

Page 7817

 1     official."

 2             Mr. Nikolic, is this part of the English transcript correct?

 3        A.   In principle it is.  There is something here, a piece of phrasing

 4     that I heard in my language which might be slightly inaccurate.  But the

 5     essence is there.

 6        Q.   Is there something you wish to correct?

 7        A.   Well, no.  I would just like to be given an opportunity to

 8     briefly say what exactly that was in relation to.  I may have put it this

 9     way myself but there you go.

10             So I was an officer of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade in

11     Bratunac.  In that brigade, in addition to the other officers and the

12     other duties, I was the officer who was in charge of the -- the head of

13     the intelligence and security organ, within that brigade.  Two functions

14     came together in my organ.  The intelligence function -- there are two

15     functions and the other function would be the security function.  Both

16     these functions were performed by a single organ, by a single officer,

17     that was me.

18             In the light infantry brigade during the war and for as long as I

19     was assigned to that brigade there was no separation between the two

20     functions.  I was intelligence and security organ and, as such, I was not

21     an authorised official.  That is the gist.

22        Q.   Okay.  And who would draft criminal reports, if criminal reports

23     needed to be drafted then?

24        A.   In my light infantry brigade throughout the war, for as long as I

25     was there, which means up to the end of the war, Zlatan Celanovic was the

Page 7818

 1     person who was in charge of preparing criminal reports which were later

 2     signed by the commander.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. SAXON:  Can we move, please, to page 57 in e-court.

 5             And if we could scroll towards the bottom of the page, please.

 6     This is page 32962 of the transcript.

 7        Q.   And in this portion of your testimony, Mr. Nikolic, you were

 8     describing how the reburial operation of men who had been killed in or

 9     near Srebrenica took place in September and October 1995.  And you're

10     describing how it required a lot of people and resources.

11             And then, in the last sentence on this page, at lines 22 to 25,

12     you say this:  "And, finally, all the tasks given to me, primarily to

13     take care of the fuel, I supported by provided books to the Bratunac

14     Brigade showing all the quantities of fuel used, and we were obliged to

15     replenish those" -- excuse me, "these quantities that were used."

16             Is that comment at the end of that sentence, that you were

17     obliged to replenish quantities of fuel, is that correct?

18        A.   I don't remember formulating that in such a way, or indeed saying

19     anything to the effect of what has now been interpreted to me.  Our duty

20     was to account for any fuel used, any fuel received, and then we had to

21     account for it to the commander of the Drina Corps who secured this fuel

22     for us.  It wasn't for us to replenish or get new supplies, that much is

23     true.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And now the last correction on this portion of your

25     testimony.

Page 7819

 1             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to page 58, please, in e-court.  This

 2     will be page 32963 of the transcript.

 3        Q.   And this is the following page.  And in lines 1 and 2, continuing

 4     on with -- with your response, Mr. Nikolic, you said:

 5             "After the operation was over, I packed up all these books and

 6     sent it to the brigade?"

 7             Is the word "brigade" at the end of that sentence correct?

 8        A.   I didn't or, rather, in the simplest of terms, the word "brigade"

 9     should not be at the end of that sentence.

10        Q.   And what or words should be at the end of the sentence?

11        A.   It should be that I sent those reports, and the word "report" is

12     in relation to fuel, usage of fuel.  I got the reports from Drina Corps.

13     I packed them all up following the completion of Drina operation, and I

14     forwarded them -- or, rather, sent them to the commander of the Drina

15     Corps.  I sent the originals to them and I left photocopies of these

16     documents with the Bratunac Brigade.  That is the whole truth.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Nikolic, with these corrections, does your

18     testimony from the 21s of April, 2009 accurately reflect what you said at

19     that time?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And, Mr. Nikolic, if you were examined today on the same topics,

22     would your answers be the same?

23        A.   Yes, they would.

24             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, at this time I would ask to admit 65 ter

25     number 09556 and after that, I have some related exhibits that I will

Page 7820

 1     seek admission of.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  09556 is admitted.  May it please be given an

 3     exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be exhibit number 2511.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar, P2511.

 6             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would also seek the admission of what

 7     is 65 ter 04557.01.  This is Mr. Nikolic's statement of facts and

 8     acceptance of responsibility dated the 6th of May, 2003.  And it was

 9     Exhibit P4489 in the Popovic trial.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you waiting for any response from me?

11             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry.  Yes.

13             MR. SAXON:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon.

15             Are you tendering it into evidence.

16             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay fine.  It is admitted into evidence.  May it

18     please be given an exhibit number.

19             I thought you wanted to go through it.

20             MR. SAXON:  No, Your Honour, I said I would also seek the

21     admission of --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I beg your pardon.

23             MR. HARMON:  No problem, Your Honour.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 2512.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

Page 7821

 1             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 2             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would also ask for the admission of 65

 3     ter number 09558.  This is the supplementary statement of Mr. Nikolic

 4     which he provided to the Popovic Trial Chamber dated 16th of April 2009,

 5     and it was court exhibit number 2 in the Popovic trial.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 7     number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be exhibit number P2513.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

10             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would seek the admission of 65 ter

11     number 04557.03, which is the joint motion for consideration of plea

12     agreement between Momir Nikolic and the Office of the Prosecutor, dated

13     the 7th of May, 2003, and this was Exhibit P4527 in the Popovic trial.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

15     number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2514.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

18             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, I would seek the admission of 65 ter

19     number 04557.02, and this is tab B to the joint motion for consideration

20     of plea agreement between Momir Nikolic and the Prosecutor, dated the 6th

21     of May, 2003, and it was Exhibit P4485 in the Popovic trial.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

23     number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P2515.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

Page 7822

 1             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 2             MR. SAXON:  And I would seek the admission of 65 ter number

 3     7207215.  These are the Bratunac Brigade minutes of meetings from 28

 4     June 1995 through the 16th of October, 1995, and this was Exhibit P219 in

 5     the Popovic trial.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are admitted.  May it please be given an

 7     exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit P2516.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

11        Q.   MR. SAXON:  And now, briefly, I believe you have two corrections

12     to make to a portion of your testimony from the 22nd of April, 2009.

13             MR. SAXON:  Can we please call up on e-court 65 ter 9557.  And if

14     we can turn, please, to page 14 in e-court.  And this should be the page

15     32992 in the English transcript.  And it is.

16        Q.   And, Mr. Nikolic, in lines 2 to 3 at the top of that page you're

17     being asked a question, and in the record the first sentence begins:

18             "Sir, you've testified previously about a meeting of the Krivaja

19     95 combat group commanders, which took place in the Bratunac Brigade

20     command ..."

21             My question for you, is that phrase Krivaja 95, is that correct?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   What should that phrase read?

24        A.   In this context, Krivaja, we are talking about the Krivaja 95

25     plan?

Page 7823

 1        Q.   And for the record, it is spelled K-r-i-v-a-j-a?

 2             MR. SAXON:  Can we please turn to page 23 of the e-court, please.

 3     This should be page 33002 of the transcript; it is.

 4        Q.   And in lines 11 to 20 of this page, Mr. Nikolic, you're

 5     explaining the flow of the Srebrenica operation, the way it developed,

 6     and you're explaining that you wanted to explain the way the attack took

 7     place and how it came about that people began leaving Srebrenica and

 8     forcibly transferred to the Muslim-controlled territory.

 9             And then at line -- beginning at line 16 there is a sentence

10     going on, and the sentence read this:

11             "The final goal was to have the enclave empty and all documents,

12     if you look at them, starting with the director from the Main Staff and

13     the information of Commander Ognjenovic points to the fact that this was

14     the goal of the attack on the enclave?"

15             And my question for you there is:  In the English transcript we

16     see the word "director" at line 18.  Is that word correct?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   What should that word be?

19        A.   It should be "directive."

20        Q.   Okay.  Now, Mr. Nikolic, with these corrections did your

21     testimony from the 22nd of April, 2009, accurately reflect what you said

22     at that time?

23        A.   Yes, it did.

24        Q.   And, Mr. Nikolic, if you were examined today on the same topics,

25     would your answers be the same?

Page 7824

 1        A.   Yes, they would.

 2             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, at this time I would seek to admit 65

 3     ter 09557.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 5     number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit P2517.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, may have I the court's permission to

10     read a summary of the evidence of Mr. Nikolic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do.

12             MR. SAXON:  Momir Nikolic confirms the statement of facts that

13     was filed with his plea agreement on the 6th of May, 2003, with the

14     qualifications that he provided in his additional statement of facts that

15     he filed with the Popovic Trial Chamber on 17 April 2009.

16             During July 1995, Mr. Nikolic was the chief of intelligence and

17     security of the Bratunac Brigade of the army of the Republika Srpska, or

18     the VRS.  Much of Mr. Nikolic's evidence concerns events in Srebrenica

19     and the Bratunac municipalities on the 11th, 12th, and 13th July 1995.

20     Mr. Nikolic also discusses certain activities that occur later in time,

21     such as efforts in September and October 1995 to rebury Bosnian Muslim

22     males who were executed after their capture in or near Srebrenica in

23     July of that year.

24             On the evening of the 11th of July, 1995, Mr. Nikolic was present

25     at two meetings at the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac.  Present at the first

Page 7825

 1     meeting was General Ratko Mladic, General Radislav Jankovic, and members

 2     of the Dutch battalion.  The second meeting was attended by General Ratko

 3     Mladic, General Radislav Krstic, and other members of the VRS, Colonel

 4     Karremans of the Dutch battalion, and a Bosnian Muslim representative

 5     named Nedzib Mandzic.  On the morning of 12 July, Mr. Nikolic was present

 6     outside the Hotel Fontana shortly before a third meeting began.  For

 7     several minutes, Mr. Nikolic spoke with VRS Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic.

 8     Mr. Popovic informed Mr. Nikolic that the Bosnian Muslim women, children,

 9     and men not fit for military service would be transported to

10     Muslim-controlled territory.  With respect to the fate of the able-bodied

11     Bosnian Muslim men, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic told Mr. Nikolic:  "All

12     the balija have to be killed."

13             After the meeting finished that morning, Mr. Nikolic received

14     very similar information from VRS Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric.

15     Subsequently, Mr. Nikolic and members of the Bratunac Brigade military

16     police assisted in the operation to transport Bosnian Muslim civilians

17     away from Potocari and to separate the able-bodied Muslim men from the

18     rest of the persons gathered there.

19             On the 13th of July, 1995, Mr. Nikolic had a conversation with

20     General Ratko Mladic and asked Mladic what would be done with a group of

21     captured Muslims.  General Mladic simply drew his hand across his chest

22     in a gesture that indicated to Mr. Nikolic that the captured Muslims

23     would be killed, which is what happened to those captured persons.

24             On the evening of 13 July 1995, VRS Colonel Ljubomir Beara

25     ordered Mr. Nikolic to convey an order to Mr. Drago Nikolic, the

Page 7826

 1     assistant commander for security of the VRS Zvornik Brigade.  The order

 2     was that the captured Bosnian Muslim men, then detained in Bratunac,

 3     would be transported to Zvornik, and Drago Nikolic's task was to prepare

 4     the facilities and men in Zvornik who would receive these prisoners.

 5     Colonel Beara also told Mr. Nikolic that the Muslim prisoners should be

 6     detained in Zvornik and executed.

 7             Mr. Nikolic's evidence describes how, on the evening of 13 July,

 8     he accompanied Colonel Beara to the offices of the SDS party in Bratunac.

 9     Mr. Nikolic waited in an outer office while Colonel Beara spoke with

10     Miroslav Deronjic, then the president of the SDS party in Bratunac, and

11     Miroslav Vasic, the chief of the police in Bratunac, in another office.

12     During that conversation, Mr. Nikolic overheard Mr. Deronjic and Colonel

13     Beara argue about the captured Muslim prisoners then detained in

14     Bratunac.  Mr. Deronjic wanted all of the prisoners to be transported

15     away from Bratunac, and he opposed the idea that any of the men be

16     executed in Bratunac.  Colonel Beara stated that he had very different

17     instructions.

18             And finally, Mr. Nikolic's evidence describes how the goal of VRS

19     forces was to have the Srebrenica enclave empty of Muslims.

20             Your Honour, may I have the Chamber's permission to clarify or

21     highlight several points in the prior testimony of the witness?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

23             MR. SAXON:

24        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, at page 32917 of your testimony in trial of

25     Mr. Popovic and others, beginning at line 8 and continuing to page 32918,

Page 7827

 1     line 17, you describe how you had a conversation with Lieutenant-Colonel

 2     Popovic in front of the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac on the morning of 12th

 3     July 1995.

 4             Do you recall that testimony?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   And on page 32919 of the transcript, from lines 2 to 7, you

 7     describe how, after that meeting, you had a similar discussion with VRS

 8     Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric.

 9             Do you recall that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I'd like to show you a -- a short video clip.  I see you have

12     your glasses with you.

13             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, this will be the start of Exhibit P438.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. SAXON:  Can we stop it there.  Thank you.

16        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, can you -- can you --

17             MR. SAXON:  We've stopped, Your Honour, at -- the timer says


19             Mr. Nikolic, can you identify the persons in the video where

20     we've stopped it here?  Perhaps starting from left to right, as we see

21     it?

22        A.   Yes I can.  The first on the left is Momir Nikolic; that is me.

23     The one next to me is Colonel Jankovic.  The person standing in the door,

24     I don't know exactly his name but I know that he was from the security

25     detail of General Mladic, and to the far right is Lieutenant-Colonel

Page 7828

 1     Vujadin Popovic.

 2        Q.   And --

 3        A.   Excuse me, and the location where this shot was made is in front

 4     of Hotel Fontana in Bratunac.

 5        Q.   And when was this shot taken, this video footage taken?

 6        A.   This footage was made on the 12th of July, 1995, approximately

 7     immediately prior to the meeting -- the third meeting that was convened

 8     to be held on the 12th of July, 1995, at 10.00 at Hotel Fontana.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. SAXON:  Can we continue for just another few seconds.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12        Q.   We've stopped here -- oh, well -- we've stopped here at


14             Mr. Nikolic, there is one person in the foreground with his back

15     to the camera but there are two persons facing the camera.  There is a

16     man on the left, a rather tall, thin man, and there is a man more towards

17     the right facing with us a bald head and a moustache.

18             Can you identify those men, please?

19        A.   The man on the left is Mr. Karremans, the DutchBat commander, who

20     were in Potocari at the time, and the man with the moustache, the bald

21     person, is Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric, who was the chief of the

22     intelligence department with the Drina Corps command.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. SAXON:  And can we run the tape just a bit more, please.

25     Stop there.

Page 7829

 1        Q.   Now the man who previously had his back to us has turned to face

 2     the camera, and this is at  Can you identify the man who is

 3     now looking at the camera on the left side of the screen, Mr. Nikolic?

 4        A.   Yes.  That's Mr. Vujadin Popovic, chief of the security

 5     Department of the Drina Corps.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. SAXON:  We can leave that video-clip now.

 8        Q.   Continuing with Mr. Kosoric, who you speak about -- who you spoke

 9     about in your prior testimony.

10             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness what is 65 ter 9507,

11     please.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say 9570?

13             MR. SAXON:  I apologise, Your Honour, I thought I said 9507.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  9507.

15             MR. SAXON:  Nothing is coming up on my screen.  I don't know

16     about other persons in the courtroom.  Here we are.  Here we are.

17        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, this is a document dated the 23rd of May, 1995, from

18     the Republika Srpska Army Main Staff.

19             Do you recall that I showed you this document a couple of days

20     ago?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   What is this document?

23        A.   This is a document issued by the Republika Srpska Army

24     Main Staff, and it concerns the secondment or the request for secondment

25     of officers pursuant to Article 58 of the Yugoslav army law, specifically

Page 7830

 1     two officers to be sent to the Army of Republika Srpska.  Of course, you

 2     can read what it concerns in detail.  You can see yourself.  I don't need

 3     to read it.  This is a request for two officers to be sent.

 4        Q.   Okay.  The first officer mentioned is Svetozar Kosoric.  Do you

 5     see that?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   At some point in 1995, did you become aware that Svetozar Kosoric

 8     became a member of the VRS Drina Corps?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   And can you recall approximately when that was and the position

11     of Mr. Kosoric?

12        A.   Yes, I remember how the Drina Corps was being manned and how the

13     recruitment was done for the Drina Corps at that time, which was sometime

14     before the Operation Srebrenica, and from this document one can see when

15     this exactly occurred and when this request was forwarded.  So it might

16     have been sometime in June when Mr. Kosoric joined the Drina Corps

17     command and he assumed the duties of chief of the intelligence department

18     of the Drina Corps.

19        Q.   And did you meet Mr. Kosoric at that time?

20        A.   I really cannot tell you at this moment when was it that when I

21     met him for the first time, but I know it was that the gentleman from the

22     intelligence and security department were active at the time, that they

23     used to come and visit the brigade, but I honestly cannot tell you the

24     exact date.

25             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document,

Page 7831

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 3     number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit P2518.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. SAXON:  The Court's indulgence.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have it.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I have been notified that I made two

 9     errors when I read out the summary of the witness's evidence, and I would

10     like to correct them please.  Both of them involve names.

11             At line 21 [sic] of today's LiveNote, I made a reference to

12     General Radislav Jankovic.  That should actually read General Radislav

13     Krstic.

14             And --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say at line 21 of today's LiveNote, what

16     page are you referring to?

17             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm referring to page 14.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. SAXON:  And then on page 16, Your Honour, line 6, I referred

20     to Miroslav Vasic and I should have used the name Dragomir Vasic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. SAXON:

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, at page 32915 of your testimony, starting at line 5

24     through page 32916, line 2, you testify about a Colonel Radislav

25     Jankovic, a Main Staff intelligence officer from the VRS, who, during the

Page 7832

 1     time of the events in Srebrenica in July 1995, shared an office with you.

 2             Do you recall that portion of your testimony?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4             MR. SAXON:  Can we please show the witness 65 ter 0949.

 5        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, this is a document dated the 25th of April, 1995.

 6     Do you recall seeing this several days ago?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   And just briefly, what is this document?

 9        A.   Well, it's similar to the previous one.  It is another request

10     sent by the VRS Main Staff to the General Staff of the Yugoslav army to

11     the effect that they asked for the below-named officers from the

12     intelligence department to be sent, and under number 2, we see the name

13     of the officer who shared an office with me during the period that we are

14     discussing, and that is Lieutenant-Colonel Radislav Jankovic.

15        Q.   And do you recall how you first -- or when you first met Radislav

16     Jankovic, and the circumstances?

17        A.   Yes.  I met him the first time, that is Mr. Radislav Jankovic, on

18     the 8th of July, 1995, when General Mladic arrived and he was accompanied

19     by a group of officers from the Main Staff, among them was Colonel

20     Jankovic.

21             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would ask that this document be

22     admitted, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

24     number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit P2519.

Page 7833

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. SAXON:

 3        Q.   And, finally, the last topic, Mr. Nikolic, starting at page 32963

 4     of the -- of your testimony in the Popovic trial, at line 18 and

 5     continuing to page 32964, line 10, you describe the resources that were

 6     used in the reburial operation during September and October 1995.  And on

 7     page 32964, at line 6, you make a brief reference to "the number of

 8     labourers who were engaged to work."

 9             Mr. Nikolic, where did these labourers come from?

10        A.   If I remember correctly, and I think I do, I believe that I was

11     talking about all those who were involved in the reburial operation and

12     the burial of the remains of the Muslims who had been buried in a grave

13     in Glogova.

14             These labourers came and I was referring to them.  They came from

15     various quarters.  So within the whole operation, involved were members

16     of the Bratunac Brigade, members of the Drina Corps, members of the

17     Bratunac public security stations, members of the Srebrenica public

18     security station, then Bratunac and Srebrenica municipal civilian

19     authorities, and work organisations or companies that had among their

20     resources machinery and those were work organisations from the territory

21     of Srebrenica and Bratunac, and another participant was an engineer

22     battalion of the Drina Corps and the Bratunac utility company.

23             So I was referring to all these men who came from all these

24     sources and who were involved in this operation that was dubbed in my

25     brigade as asanacija, or clear-up operations.

Page 7834

 1        Q.   And you mentioned the utilities company from Bratunac.  What did

 2     the members of the Bratunac utility company do?  What was their

 3     participation?

 4        A.   The workers from the utility company, and I believe that it's

 5     clear to everyone what a utility company does in a town, they had

 6     machinery and trucks and their workers were mainly involved in the work

 7     in the grave itself.  That is to say, digging up the grave in Glogova.

 8        Q.   And do you know where this reburial operation in Srebrenica and

 9     Bratunac was planned?

10        A.   Do I know where it was planned?

11        Q.   That's my question, yes.

12        A.   Yes.  All I know --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Carry on.

14             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] With a great degree of certainty I

15     can say that this operation had not been planned at a local level.

16     According to what I know and based on all the information that I have

17     received to date, indicate that this operation had been planned at the

18     level of the Main Staff and that is how it was presented to the brigade,

19     to my brigade, that is to say, and I testified to this effect in the

20     previous trials.

21             MR. SAXON:

22        Q.   And just so the record is clear, when you refer to the

23     Main Staff, is that the Main Staff of the VRS?

24        A.   Yes.  I was referring to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika

25     Srpska.

Page 7835

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

 2             MR. SAXON:  I have no further questions at this time, Your

 3     Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

 5             Mr. Lukic.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

 8        A.   Good morning, Mr. Lukic.

 9        Q.   Have you counted the times you answered questions for the benefit

10     of various Defence counsels so far?

11        A.   No, not really.

12        Q.   I'm asking because you probably know that we both must speak

13     slowly and we must make a pause between each of the questions and answers

14     and vice versa in order to ensure an accurate transcript.  I've noticed

15     that you have a tendency to speak fast.  So do I.

16             Let's do our best to try and help the interpreters and keep the

17     transcript accurate.

18        A.   I'll try to keep track of this, and I hope that everything goes

19     fine.

20        Q.   I would first like to go through the chronology, if I may call it

21     that, of your status.  A number of questions about that, although a

22     number of things can be gleaned from the documents that have now been

23     exhibited, above all I'm referring to the joint agreement on facts.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Judging by the speed at which the interpreter is

25     going, two seconds after your warning.

Page 7836

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Uh-huh.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Your indictment was published in March 2002,

 3     right?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreter didn't hear the answer to the

 6     question, Mr. Nikolic.  Will you please answer again.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You were arrested on the 1st of April, 2002.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You were charged with genocide, involvement in genocide,

12     extermination, persecution all within the joint criminal enterprise.  Do

13     you remember that?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   About a year after your arrest you drew up an agreement with the

16     OTP to plead guilty.  Pursuant to that agreement, you plead guilty before

17     the Tribunal, guilty of persecution.  That was on 7th of May, 2003.  Do

18     you remember that?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   Pursuant to that agreement, the sentencing ruling was deferred

21     until the close of your number in the Blagojevic case; is that right?

22     And Jokic too.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Your conviction came on the 2nd of December 2003, right?

25        A.   I don't remember the exact date, but I will take your word for

Page 7837

 1     it.

 2        Q.   Another thing that I have come across is that nearly two and a

 3     half years later on the 8th of March, 2006, the final judgement came, the

 4     20-year prison term which you are now serving.  That was the final

 5     sentence, right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can we look at your -- B/C/S page 4, the English page is 7.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hear the interpreter telling us pages, but he's

 9     not telling us pages of what.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is exhibit -- and I think my

11     note is right, P2514.  This is it a joint plea agreement annex; the B/C/S

12     page is 4, and the English page is 7.

13        Q.   I want to know about paragraph 9.  Yes, that's right.

14             This is the plea agreement that you entered into with the

15     Prosecutor of this Tribunal.  It reads that, in actual fact, you were

16     willing to cooperate with the Prosecutor and to furnish truthful and

17     complete information whenever so required.

18             Is that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   Above all, this is in reference to your knowledge about the

21     events surrounding Srebrenica.

22             The next sentence reads that you agreed to be truthful and candid

23     and to freely answer all questions put to you by members of the Office of

24     the Prosecutor.  Also, you agreed to testify at their request in any

25     trial before this Tribunal.

Page 7838

 1             Is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You have so far not refused any contact or conversation with

 4     The Hague Prosecutor or indeed to appear as a witness before this

 5     Tribunal.

 6        A.   No, I've never refused that.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next page, please, paragraph 11.

 8        Q.   It reads here that both you and the Prosecutor agree for all

 9     information and testimony provided by you to be absolutely truthful,

10     meaning you must neither minimise your own actions nor fabricate anyone

11     else's involvement.

12             Is that right?

13        A.   Yes.  You're stating that and what would be the question in it

14     for me?

15        Q.   My question, you personally signed this agreement, right.

16             Can you just respond for the transcript?

17        A.   That's right I signed the agreement.

18        Q.   When you signed the agreement and afterwards as well, when you

19     provided statements to the OTP and when you appeared as a witness before

20     the Trial Chamber, you were fully aware of your obligations under

21     paragraph 11 of this agreement were you not?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You were also aware of the fact that you were in no way to

24     minimise your own involvement or indeed fabricate anything at all about

25     other people's involvement.

Page 7839

 1        A.   Yes, that's right.

 2        Q.   And that was what you did.  You consistently acted in that way

 3     after you signed this agreement, right?

 4        A.   Yes.  I consistently acted like that, to the extent that I could

 5     intellectually or indeed in any other way.

 6        Q.   I fully understand your response, sir.

 7             During your negotiations with the OTP, surrounding your plea

 8     agreement, at one point in time you felt that the Prosecutor - at least

 9     based on how you felt - was not happy with the information provided by

10     you during those interviews.  It therefore crossed your mind that you

11     might be expected to offer something more as opposed to what you had been

12     saying up until that point in time.

13             You testified about that a number of times as far as I remember?

14        A.   Yes, indeed.

15        Q.   Is that right?

16        A.   Can you please ask your question.  Try to ask questions.  I do

17     have to say this, respectfully.  I'm trying to be fair.  I wish to answer

18     any and all your questions, but can you please start asking questions and

19     then I start answering.  You keep making statements and declarations

20     asking me to confirm.  I'm not sure I'm willing to go along with that.

21     Just ask the questions and I'll try to answer all of them.

22        Q.   I do believe that that was a question.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  One speaker at a time, please.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   One question -- at one point during your negotiations with the

Page 7840

 1     OTP, you personally felt or thought that any information that you have

 2     been providing up to that point was not sufficient in order to reach an

 3     agreement with the OTP.  You therefore offered to give them something

 4     more, more than you had been giving up until that point in time.

 5             Is that right, sir?

 6        A.   No.  My answer to your question is at one point in time, and I've

 7     testified to this fact countless times so far, at one point in time,

 8     there was a moment when negotiations became gridlocked in relation to one

 9     particular incident, which I can explain if you would like me to.

10             After the Prosecutor was adamant that I should be there, at one

11     point I became unsettled.  That was towards the end of our talks.  I'd

12     given them everything that I knew.  I told the Prosecutor about

13     everything.  And at one point a question came from the Prosecutor, were

14     you involved in that crime?  And I said yes.  I ordered this and that.

15     After that, and I'm talking about Kravica, the Kravica case, I realised

16     immediately what I had done.  I had told an untruth.  I asked that the

17     talks cease immediately.  We spoke -- I spoke to my lawyers, I told them

18     immediately, "Gentlemen, I actually told an untruth.  I want to apologise

19     to the OTP and I want to press on with the talks."  That's what happened.

20             And just to be perfectly clear about this, both the Prosecutor

21     and my lawyers, with my consent, needless to say, drew up a statement

22     detailing everything that it said about me telling an untruth about my

23     own involvement in that incident.  I apologised to the OTP and we

24     continued with our talks.

25             As talks continued -- or at least I -- I hope, to the extent that

Page 7841

 1     I was able, I talked about my crimes, I talked about my own involvement

 2     in these crimes and the involvement of other people.  I believe I ended

 3     up telling the complete truth at least as based on my knowledge and based

 4     on my vision of what might -- my experience of what happened.  So that's

 5     about my additional statement and about any untruths that I may have

 6     told.

 7        Q.   It's easy for both of us to understand what we're talking about.

 8     Probably, I'm not sure that the Chamber is aware of all these facts that

 9     we are now discussing specifically.

10             Can we please clarify this one thing at a time.

11             As far as I understand, or, rather, let me try to tackle it this

12     way.  At one point in time you told the Prosecutors something that was

13     not a truthful and accurate fact, something do with the Kravica incident;

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   As far as I understand your last answer, you said this on the

17     spur of the moment, you were revolted because you thought that your talks

18     with the OTP were not proceeding in the right direction.  You were in

19     a -- peculiar emotional state and that's why you said it.  It wasn't

20     something that was a result of any calculations on your part.  You were

21     simply thinking that the Prosecutor was trying to get something more from

22     you as opposed to what you had said up to that point, that was my first

23     question.  And then you provided this exceptionally broad answer, just to

24     be perfectly precise.  This inaccurate fact or false fact that you then

25     shared with the OTP, was that a result of any calculations that you may

Page 7842

 1     have made during your talks with the OTP or was that simply a result of

 2     your peculiar emotional state at the time, your revolt?

 3        A.   I will answer that question and I'll be perfectly clear about

 4     this.  The fact remains what I said a while ago.  Nevertheless, I have to

 5     admit because of the truth.  The talks with the Prosecution were nearing

 6     the natural end, and I had said up to that point whatever I'd had to say,

 7     and I was perfectly clear about this.  I said everything that I knew.

 8     Any withdrawal from these talks would have been fatal for me, because I'd

 9     already given them everything that I knew, and I had said that in my

10     previous testimony.  My assessment was that I would not have any avenues

11     open in terms of withdrawing from the talks or stopping the talks,

12     putting a stop to the talks.  My assessment was I had to be there.  I had

13     to stick with it.

14             I had to remain in these negotiations, and given the situation

15     that I was, that would have been optimal solution for me, so please try

16     not to interrupt that as some form of calculation or speculation.  I

17     thought it was the best decision for me at the time and the fairest

18     decision, too.  I hope you understand the situation that I was in.

19             Nevertheless, I assumed this responsibility.  I never accused

20     anyone else.  I apologise.  I did make a mistake.  I did tell an untruth.

21     I apologised and we continued the talks.

22        Q.   You see this capital letters on the screen, sir, you see these

23     capital letters?  That's about you and me.  That's about us slowing down,

24     right?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it's a very good time for a

Page 7843

 1     break, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... and come back

 3     at a quarter to 11.00.

 4             Court adjourned.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes -- yes, Mr. Saxon, I see you are on your feet.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             May we move briefly into private session, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7844

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

Page 7845

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 2             Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, A question in relation to your last

 5     answer.  At page 32, line 12, you say that had the talks stopped this

 6     would have been a fatal development for you.

 7             Why would that have constituted a fatal development for you, as

 8     you say, if the talks between you and the OTP had stopped or ground to a

 9     halt?  Briefly, if you can.  Thank you.

10        A.   First of all, I'm no lawyer myself.  Obviously, this was the

11     first time in my life I was facing a prosecutor or, indeed, an

12     indictment, the first time I've ever stood accused of anything at all.  I

13     had no idea at the time, and I took far too long finding my feet, as it

14     were, in this situation.  I'm only talking about my own personal

15     conviction.  I believed that I had said everything.  I was entirely open

16     and forthright about my involvement.  This was towards the end of the

17     talks, and I believed at that time that I had run out of arguments

18     defending myself because I had told the Prosecutor everything already

19     about myself, about my involvement, the mode of my involvement.

20             Again, this was my call, my personal assessment.  I believed that

21     I would find myself in an unenviable situation.  After all these talks

22     and after all information that I provided to the OTP, I believed that I

23     would find myself in a very difficult situation.  That was my assessment

24     at the time.

25        Q.   If you had remained in your status as an accused, the amount of

Page 7846

 1     information had you already provided would have been detrimental to your

 2     Defence; is my understanding correct?

 3        A.   Yes, that was my understanding, too.  Was I right or wrong I

 4     don't know.  I'm not a lawyer.  As I said, it was the assessment that I

 5     made at the time.

 6        Q.   During the talks with the OTP, you wanted to get at the truth

 7     about any facts that you were aware of.  You wanted to make all this

 8     available to the public.  That was the ambition behind your admission of

 9     guilt; right?

10        A.   During the talks, I did my best to tell the OTP the truth, the

11     truth that I remembered from back then, the period in relation to which I

12     stood indicted and in relation to the area where -- in which I was

13     deployed to that particular unit.

14        Q.   Can we please just look at this, the portion of your testimony in

15     the Blagojevic case, an answer you provided to Mr. Karnavas.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please draw up document, it's

17     part of the transcript that's in e-court from the Blagojevic trial.  This

18     is 1D03-2995, page 65.  This is 2143 in the official transcript of the

19     Blagojevic case.

20        Q.   What is about to come up on our screens will be in English,

21     Mr. Nikolic.  It's about the subject matter that we have been discussing

22     right now, what you termed your assessment, your estimate at the time,

23     the assessment that was behind your decision to tell an untruth about a

24     particular fact.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The transcript page is 65; in

Page 7847

 1     e-court, 2143, if our information is accurate.

 2        Q.   Starting with line five, Mr. Karnavas' question.

 3             [In English] "Okay.  But getting back to what I said, the false

 4     information in this story relates to Nikolic, and Nikolic stood to gain

 5     the most from the story that Nikolic himself had created and served to

 6     the Prosecution [sic]."

 7             [Interpretation]

 8             "Answer:  [In English] I did not, Mr. Karnavas, at that point in

 9     time think along those lines as to what I would gain and what I will

10     lose.  Just then I had decided, since the Prosecution and I were in

11     advanced stage, and since I had conveyed ... the Prosecution everything

12     that I had done and I had been involved in, I simply felt that the

13     agreement should be signed with the Prosecution and that that agreement

14     should be reached, that I should confess my guilt and plead guilty.  And

15     within that framework, I made this error, and that is all I can say now."

16             [Interpretation] Do you stand by these words that I have just

17     read back to you, the words you uttered in the Blagojevic case on the

18     29th of September, 2003.

19        A.   I will take your word for it.  I'm not receiving any

20     interpretation in my language, but I take your word for it.  I stand by

21     it and it is the gist of what I said.  I do apologise, just for the Trial

22     Chamber and generally speaking, there is one thing that I'd like to say.

23             I am unable to quote my previous testimonies every time I appear

24     again.  But I would like to say that what I said today and what I said in

25     my previous testimony, in my first testimony, that remains the gist.  I

Page 7848

 1     wanted to reach this agreement, that is true, and I wanted to share with

 2     the OTP the truth that I knew.  I wanted to share with them what I saw

 3     and what I investigated at the time.  That was my intension then, as now.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go on, Mr. Lukic.  Part of the

 5     answer by the witness is that he is not getting any translation in a

 6     language he can understand.

 7             Are we having any problem with the B/C/S booth.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  No, Your Honour, we did interpret.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

10             MR. SAXON:  I'm wondering perhaps whether it's a question of

11     which channel the witness is tuned into?  I don't know.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we help the witness, please.  I think it is

13     crucially important --

14             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's crucially important that the witness

16     [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that what

18     happened was something to do with his interpretation.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... we can all

20     sing; we cannot all talk at the same time.  You're talking, the

21     interpreter is talking, I was trying to talk.  I was trying to deal with

22     this problem, and I was trying to say it is crucially important for the

23     witness to hear his previous testimony for him to be able to answer you

24     candidly.

25             And can you reread that passage from that testimony, and can we

Page 7849

 1     have the interpretation for the witness being made so that he hears

 2     exactly what was said.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Certainly.

 4        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, he wants to say something.

 5             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Your Honours --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 7             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] -- I am receiving interpretation

 8     in my headphones.  Maybe I wasn't accurate and precise enough.  I

 9     expected that next to the English version I would see on the screen a

10     translation in my language.  That is the problem.  If that is not

11     supposed to happen, then there is no problem.  I heard the interpretation

12     and I understand the gentleman and I trust the interpretation that I have

13     received.  I heard everything through my headphones.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.  Now, unfortunately, you

15     not see the interpretation in the language that you understand on the

16     screen.  You will only hear it here, okay?  So if you hear it, that's

17     fine.  Thank you very much.

18             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.  You don't have to reread.

19             MR. LUKIC:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, whenever I put to you portions of

21     your previous testimonies, if you wish to have the reference page, the

22     only way we can do this is to read from the English transcript and then

23     have your comments, and that is similar to the procedure that you had

24     when you had your sessions with Mr. Saxon.

25             Let us now be precise, you did say that you stand by what I read

Page 7850

 1     out to you today?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please speak off the

 4     microphone while the witness is speaking.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you hear that, Mr. Lukic?  When the witness is

 6     speaking, switch off your mic.  You are going to speak; you can have it

 7     on now.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   At one point during your negotiations, you offered to the OTP an

10     untrue fact in order to remedy your status that you thought was, at the

11     time, unfavourable.

12             This is my brief conclusion.  Just tell me do you agree or not.

13        A.   I already answered that.

14        Q.   Very well.  I'm not going to insist on this any further.

15             From the point of your arrest and you were afforded the rights of

16     an accused, you continuously received material from the OTP in your

17     capacity of an accused.

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   This is the material that is incriminating or exonerating.  At

20     any rate, you have received an abundance of material relating to the

21     events that you are testifying about today; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   And these documents, materials, statement, video footage, these

24     photographs served, among other things, to refresh your memory of the

25     events that happened seven or eight years ago; is that correct?

Page 7851

 1        A.   Well, you may put it that way.

 2        Q.   And most probably, this material helped you to draw certain

 3     personal conclusions about some of the events that you were not aware of

 4     at the time, but thanks to the material provided to you, you were able to

 5     draw these conclusions concerning people who were involved in those

 6     events.  To put it simply:  After you've seen certain video footage, you

 7     establish a connection with what you remember about that and that enables

 8     you to draw conclusions?

 9        A.   I wouldn't say so.  I knew a lot, even without those materials

10     and statements and documents.  And whenever I testified, it, for the most

11     part, referred to what I personally saw or was participant to.  So we can

12     agree that the usage and reading of certain statements, orders, or

13     documents helped me just to reinforce and confirm my knowledge.

14             So you can -- you can say that, and that would be my answer to

15     your question, in this particular context.

16        Q.   At one point, you had an opportunity to see a photograph taken on

17     the Sandici site, and you thought for a moment that you were in that

18     photograph.  Therefore, I assume that, based on that original fact, you

19     tried to remember whether you actually were in Sandici at the time.

20     Later on, with the assistance of your counsel, you established that it

21     wasn't you.

22             Is that correct?

23        A.   Both you and I know what this photograph relates, but let me make

24     it clear.  The photograph that I was shown, it was taken out of a set and

25     the person depicted in the photograph resembled me.  Without the checking

Page 7852

 1     done by my counsel on the ground, I initially didn't know where this

 2     photograph had been taken.  As soon as I was told that this was taken in

 3     Sandici I expressed my doubts, because they told me also the period.  I

 4     knew for a fact that at that period I was not in Sandici and that made me

 5     doubtful.

 6             After, I expressed these doubts.  But, yes, at the beginning I

 7     did say, yes, this man, this soldier in the photograph resembles me or I

 8     resemble him.  After an investigation conducted on the ground, my counsel

 9     found the man who was in the photograph.  He confirmed that himself.  And

10     then the assertion that it was me in the photograph was rebuked.

11             As for the declaration of guilt, was provided to the OTP later

12     on.

13        Q.   This is what I actually asked you a while ago, as an example.

14     After seeing an OTP document, you made an effort to try and remember

15     whether there was any connection between you and their documents, so you

16     tried to think back whether you were in Sandici or not.

17             What I wanted to say is that certain documents supplied to you by

18     the OTP helped you to draw certain conclusions about certain events.

19             Is that correct?

20        A.   I wouldn't say that.  That's not correct.  Any document provided

21     to me -- or this particular document did not serve me to establish that I

22     won't -- that I wasn't in Sandici.  As soon as I was given information

23     about the area where the photograph was taken, I said, No, I wasn't in

24     Sandici at that time.  I did pass through Sandici, but I was in a car and

25     nobody could have taken a photo of me in that pose.  And nobody could

Page 7853

 1     claim otherwise, because I wasn't in Sandici.

 2        Q.   Let's move on.

 3             You were also on the OTP list of witnesses in the Popovic case;

 4     is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And during the proofing, you were interviewed by Julian Nicholls

 7     from the OTP when you were visited in detention unit or, rather, in

 8     prison in 2007; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You didn't appear in these proceedings as the OTP witness, but,

11     rather, you were summoned as a court witness in April of this year; is

12     that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see another portion of the

15     transcript from this trial, which is not part of the 92 ter package.

16     That's 1D03-4218 in e-court, page 33101, and page 48 in e-court.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, Mr. Lukic, what do you wanted

18     to do with 1D03-2995?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm not tendering it into evidence

20     because I have put only one portion of the transcript, and the transcript

21     is already in evidence.  I'm only relying on your guidance and your

22     guidelines, and I think that's sufficient.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] This has been read out to you when you

Page 7854

 1     testified.  This is page 33101 from that same trial.  You can't see this

 2     on this page.  It's actually page 17398.  And that's the day when

 3     Mr. McCloskey on behalf of the OTP provided certain information to the

 4     Trial Chamber and -- which reads as follows.  Line 3:

 5             "[In English] Mr. President, as I think you are aware, about two

 6     weeks ago we had a proofing session with Momir Nikolic.  Julian Nicholls

 7     met with him and from that proofing session it has arisen that

 8     Momir Nikolic has become adverse to Prosecution [sic] case.  Adverse to

 9     the Prosecution case.  He made statements at the proofing session that we

10     don't believe are credible, and in reviewing his overall situation, we

11     have decided, on a balance, to withdraw him as a witness."

12             [Interpretation] You are familiar with this, because this was

13     read out to you during your testimony.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   At that point when this interview was conducted with you in

16     prison, you were prepared to appear as an OTP witness in the Popovic

17     case.

18        A.   Yes, I was.

19        Q.   You didn't put forward any preconditions concerning the OTP 's

20     intention to bring you as an OTP witness.

21        A.   I never opposed the OTP's intention, because I understand what my

22     obligations are under the agreement that I signed with the Prosecution.

23        Q.   During the proofing session, did the representative of the OTP

24     show you some documents that you hadn't seen before?  Do you remember

25     that?

Page 7855

 1        A.   No.  As far as I remember, no.

 2        Q.   During that interview, were you asked to write new information

 3     that you hadn't provided previously?  Did they ask you some new

 4     questions?

 5        A.   No, they didn't seek any additional information.

 6        Q.   Did the OTP representative tell you at the time that there is

 7     contradiction between your present and previous statements and that they

 8     were dissatisfied with what you have provided in terms of facts?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic.  I'm getting a bit lost

10     here.  In terms of the witness's agreement with the OTP, he did not

11     undertake this plea bargain.  Did he not undertake to testify in favour

12     of the OTP or to testify in support of the OTP case.  He undertook to

13     testify truthfully.

14             This passage here does not say that they are dropping him as a

15     witness because he is now contradicting his prior statement.  It says he

16     is now giving adverse testimony to the Prosecution's case.  If it's

17     truthful, so be it.  That's what he has undertook to do.

18             Now, I don't know whether somewhere else in this transcript there

19     is a proposition that he is contradicting his prior statement, but based

20     on the transcript before us, there is no allegation of inconsistent

21     statements.  There is an allegation of adverse testimony.

22             I'm not sure whether the question you are putting on is based on

23     this or is based on some other excerpt from this testimony.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] With the Court's indulgence, may I

25     have a minute, please.

Page 7856

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do have a minute, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what you asked me

 3     about, this is only fact that I read from the transcript that was stated

 4     by Mr. McCloskey concerning their position why they were unwilling to

 5     call this witness.  I wanted to check with this witness whether something

 6     new occurred during the proofing session without going at all into

 7     whether his statement and previous testimonies were truthful or

 8     untruthful.

 9             This is important for me because of the credibility of this

10     witness, and I'm going to ask some more questions about that later.  I am

11     wondering about how interested he was to make the Prosecution satisfied

12     with his testimony.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand, Mr. Lukic.  But my problem is once

14     you now suggest that he is -- his current statement at the time was

15     inconsistent with a prior statement he had made, then you are

16     mischaracterising the transcript as it stands.  The transcript as it

17     stands does not allege an inconsistent statement, a prior statement.  It

18     alleges adverse testimony to the case of the Prosecution.  The

19     Prosecution -- the Prosecution here just feels that because he is saying

20     something that hurts them, therefore he must be dropped.  They are not

21     saying he is untruthful.  They are not saying it contradicts a prior

22     statement.  This is my problem.

23             So when you talk of inconsistent prior statement, I find that a

24     mischaracterisation of the testimony that is before us.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  If I -- just to be -- if I said

Page 7857

 1     that there was a discrepancy between his statement and his previous

 2     testimony then I made a mistake.  That is not what I was trying to talk

 3     about.  I did not go into the truthfulness of any allegations made at

 4     that interview at all.  That was not my intention.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... from page 44,

 6     lines 25 up to page 45 line 2.

 7             "Did the OTP representative tell you at the time that there this

 8     is a contradiction between your present and previous statements and that

 9     they were dissatisfied with what you have provided in terms of facts?"

10             That was your question.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will clarify that right now.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... or did you

13     make a mistake when you said so?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to rephrase that

15     question.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] During a number of different interviews that you

19     had with the OTP over a long period of time, did you ever face a

20     situation where someone from the OTP presented to you a conclusion about

21     your evidence, in terms of saying, "We believe you" or "We do not believe

22     you" in relation to a fact, any fact?

23        A.   That is a difficult question.

24        Q.   Just briefly, please.

25        A.   Briefly?  I can't do this briefly.

Page 7858

 1        Q.   Let me first please check whether my question is all right by the

 2     Trial Chamber.  That's just what I -- the only thing that I wanted to

 3     know.  If this question is not perfectly proper, then I will try and

 4     change it again.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My problem is, I don't see the basis for that

 6     question.  If -- if the basis for your question is the testimony here,

 7     then again you are slightly embellishing the testimony here.  They don't

 8     say they disbelieve him.  They say he is adverse to their case.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, to suggest at some stage the Prosecutor might

11     have said to him, "I don't believe you," is to take it a step further.  A

12     legitimate question would be, Did at some stage the Prosecutor say to

13     you, "Your answer is hurting our case"?  That's what the Prosecutor said

14     to the Court.

15             Okay, I beg your pardon.  I must withdraw my statement.

16             I must withdraw.  There is a passage to that effect; I'm awfully

17     sorry.  I only remembered what you had put to the witness, but I see on

18     reading further there is something.  My apologies.

19             That last question -- [Microphone not activated].

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?

21             MR. LUKIC:

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   If I understand your question correctly, I will try to provide an

24     answer.

25             The Prosecution and I had countless conversations.  There was

Page 7859

 1     never a single conversation in which we had the exact same opinions, me

 2     on the one hand and the OTP on the other, about a whole range of

 3     different issues.  I had my convictions, my opinions which I freely

 4     stated to the OTP.  Believe me, whenever I talked to the OTP I never

 5     tried to say what I believed they wanted to hear.  I always tried to say

 6     what I thought was the truth.  I always tried to provide my understanding

 7     of whatever problem the Prosecution wanted to know about.

 8             Along these lines, I think our talks were extremely fair.  I

 9     never had anyone from the OTP making any complaints about me.  They

10     didn't praise me either, but they didn't have any particular objections

11     to raise to what I was saying or the way in which I was putting it.

12     That, in principle, would answer your question.

13             As to what I was actually talking about, what we were talking

14     about during the proofing in Finland played into the OTP's hands or not.

15     The manner in which I explained certain problems, now that is not

16     something that I can say.  The OTP never told me what you asked me about

17     or what you suggested:  "Mr. Nikolic, this is adverse to the OTP's case,"

18     they never said.  Nor indeed did they express an opinion to the effect

19     that anything I was saying was favouring their case.  They just told me

20     that I had to say whatever I felt I had to say.  This, in the briefest

21     possible terms, would be an answer to your question.

22        Q.   What you heard in court when it was read back to you, what

23     Mr. McCloskey had previously told the Trial Chamber, I bet you didn't

24     like it when you heard that assessment of the OTP when they said why they

25     chose not to call you; right?

Page 7860

 1        A.   That's right, I didn't like it.  I said then - and I think when I

 2     eventually appeared towards the end of my testimony I had another

 3     opportunity to reiterate that I simply said that I had never refused to

 4     appear.  I also said there was nothing adverse in terms of my disposition

 5     towards the OTP, nothing hostile.  I had no problem with that.  I was

 6     perfectly willing, in keeping with my duties and obligations under the

 7     agreement, to appear as a witness whenever summoned by the OTP.  That was

 8     my answer in court, the last time I appeared, and it still is today.  I

 9     can only repeat that.  I'm willing to appear as a witness whenever

10     summoned by either of the parties, and all I will be talking about all my

11     evidence will be about the truth as I know it.

12        Q.   What you really care is for the truth to be established about

13     what occurred in Srebrenica; right?

14        A.   Of course I do.  I am trying to contribute to that.  I'm trying

15     to help get at the truth about what happened, about the crime, within my

16     powers and to the best of my knowledge.

17        Q.   You would also like to see established the involvement of each

18     and every individual in those events, right?  Briefly.  Let's try to

19     speed things along a little.

20        A.   Yes, I do care about that too.

21             I admitted my on responsibility, and I would like for the

22     responsibility of everyone else who was involved to be established as

23     well, and obviously I know about those too.

24        Q.   Yet you refused to appear as a witness before the national court

25     in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in relation to these same events; isn't that

Page 7861

 1     right?

 2        A.   That is not right.  I appeared there twice, as a matter of fact.

 3        Q.   But you refused to go there to testify because you believed that

 4     that wasn't part and parcel of your agreement with the OTP; isn't that

 5     right?

 6        A.   Again, you appear to have been misinformed.  Nobody asked me to

 7     go to Sarajevo.  They wanted me to testify via videolink from Helsinki,

 8     which is exactly what I did.  The first time around I refused to appear

 9     as a Prosecution witness simply because I had been given no documents at

10     all, nothing apart from the summons to appear as a witness.

11             On the other hand, I believed that I should be given information

12     or an indication as to what I would be testifying about.  I believed that

13     this required some proofing, and I also believed that since under my

14     agreement with the OTP I had no obligation to appear before a court in

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina, which, by the way, didn't even exist at the time.

16     I believed it was the duty of the BiH prosecutor to at least come over

17     and ask me whether I was willing to participate in those trials.

18             On the other hand, I did not wish to not appear at all and then I

19     asked to be the court's witness.  And that is the capacity in which I

20     appeared in the first trial there.

21             As for the second trial, they told me what I would be testifying

22     about.  I was provided documents, and in that second trial I eventually

23     appeared as a Prosecution witness.

24        Q.   My information suggests that you were not willing to testify

25     because that wasn't in the terms of your agreement with the OTP.  Your

Page 7862

 1     agreement with the OTP was only about appearing before this Tribunal.

 2             Do you remember ever saying anything like that?  Yes or no,

 3     please.

 4        A.   I think that is true.  But what I'm telling you now is that, as a

 5     matter of fact, I did appear as a witness there.

 6        Q.   That was never in doubt.

 7        A.   Fair enough then.

 8        Q.   The statement that has been exhibited - and, Your Honours, I'm

 9     talking about Exhibit P2513 - is a statement that you hand-wrote in

10     Finland, in prison before appearing in the Popovic case.

11             If I understand correctly, the substance of that statement is

12     about your clarification of certain facts from your admission of guilt.

13     You drew up this statement in order to adjust certain statements or the

14     allegations made in your previous admission, right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You know that each time one appears as a witness before a court

17     one testifies under oath, and perjury has certain consequences.  You

18     handwrote this statement, despite which you are prepared and willing to

19     bear any consequences as if the handwritten statement had been provided

20     under oath, right?

21        A.   Yes, I understand what you are saying and I agree.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's not intention of the Defence to tender

23     1D03-4218?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, same as before.

25        Q.   Let us go through a couple of things.  Can we have page 2 in the

Page 7863

 1     B/C/S and the English page is right there at the bottom, Prosecution

 2     Exhibit P2513.

 3             That is your statement.  What shall I call it?  Yeah, that's

 4     probably the best.  Handwritten statement to be perfectly accurate;

 5     right?

 6             What I want to know about is when as a matter of fact you explain

 7     paragraph 1 of the admission statement and here you go on to say:  "The

 8     intentions of the VRS, the first intention was to" --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just direct us exactly on the page where you are

10     reading.

11             Okay, I can see now.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Halfway down the page, roughly

13     speaking.

14        Q.   "To physically separate two enclaves, the enclaves of Zepa and

15     Srebrenica, to liberate the Zeleni Jadar-Jasenovac-Milici road and, in

16     phase 2, to reduce the Srebrenica enclave to the town area.  The forcible

17     removal of the entire Muslim population from Srebrenica was the result of

18     the fall of the enclaves and subsequent decisions."

19             I assume, since you provided a clarification, that -- and let me

20     try to be accurate.

21             When the operation was launched, Krivaja 95, that's what we'll be

22     calling it; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   This was the plan.  What you said here, that was the original

25     plan for that operation; right?  Meaning to physically separate the two

Page 7864

 1     enclaves, and in stage two to reduce the Srebrenica enclave to the area

 2     of the town itself, the restricted area of the town itself.

 3             Is my understanding correct, when Krivaja 95 began that was the

 4     principle objective and only after the fall did all the other things --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could counsel please speak

 6     up, speak directly into the microphone.  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] That is what I wrote.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, just read what the interpreter has just

 9     said.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Fine.

11        Q.   At the time the attack was launched on the enclave, you will

12     agree with me that there was no talk of a forcible removal of the

13     population or any crimes when the attack on the enclave started, when the

14     objective was to do what you just said, to separate the enclaves and to

15     reduce the Srebrenica enclave to the area of the town itself; right?

16        A.   Sir, you're asking me as if I had been involved in the planning

17     of this operation.  I can only tell you about my level.

18        Q.   That's what I'm asking you.

19        A.   You're asking about my level, my level, my brigade, my organ, we

20     were not discussing the issue that you just raised.  Was this perhaps

21     discussed at a level higher up?  I don't know.

22        Q.   And then what you go on to state about the intention of the VRS,

23     these are facts that you had at your level, the brigade level, right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   At the brigade level, you were not receiving any information from

Page 7865

 1     higher up about any further consequences of the attack on the enclave.

 2        A.   I don't know what you have in mind.

 3        Q.   When the attack on the enclave began at your level, the Bratunac

 4     Brigade, you did not receive any information from higher up receiving

 5     something, for example, from the corps, intelligence organ, information

 6     that there would be a forcible removal of the population when the attack

 7     began.  You did not receive any information like that, did you?

 8        A.   You can't have any information like that at a moment when the

 9     operation is already under way.  To be perfectly clear, please, these

10     issues are subject to assessments; the results and consequences of an

11     attack carried out in a certain area.  There are assessments that are

12     made prior to an attack as to what might happen.  You can't expect

13     someone to inform you to provide reliable facts as to what would perhaps

14     happen.  You make an assessment.  Every time you make an assessment you

15     must make certain allowances or predictions knowing what forces will be

16     deployed, knowing what the objective of the operation is, you have to try

17     and envisage the possible consequences.

18             What I wrote here, what eventually happened after the actual

19     combat that was part of the operation.  There was another part of the

20     operation which was the forcible removal.  Forcible removal was a result

21     of decisions taken following the combat part.  That is what I tried to

22     explain, to make that perfectly clear to everyone.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at a document, which

25     is 65 ter 2529.

Page 7866

 1        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, you're going see it shortly and the screen, but I

 2     think that Mr. Saxon has already shown this document to you during

 3     proofing.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 6     I think it's placed under seal.  [Microphone not activated].

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 7867

 1             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] We shall first look at page 1 and then look at

 4     the last page, and we will just briefly comment on this document.

 5             This is from the Drina Corps command, entitled an order for

 6     active BD, which I believe stands for combat activities, dated the 2nd

 7     July 1995.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the last page

 9     first to see who signed the document and then we will go back to page 1.

10        Q.   Do you recognise this signature and do you know this individual,

11     Mr. Nikolic?

12        A.   I know who the corps commander was at the time.  Therefore, I

13     know who signed it.

14        Q.   It was General Zivanovic, right?

15        A.   Of course.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go back to page 1, please.

17        Q.   Let's read number 1.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can you please scroll the document

19     down a bit, please, so that we can see who the recipient is, and this is

20     right beyond the title.

21        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, was this order sent to your Bratunac Light Infantry

22     Brigade as well?

23        A.   Yes, it was.

24        Q.   Mr. Zivanovic says in this first part, I'm reading the

25     paragraph under the paragraph numbered 1.

Page 7868

 1             "We believe that in the forthcoming period that in -- the enemy

 2     will intensify offensive activities ... in the area of responsibility of

 3     the DK."

 4             DK is the Drina Corps?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   "Mainly in the Tuzla-Zvornik and Kladanj-Vlasenica axis with

 7     simultaneous activity by the 28th PD," I suppose that stands for

 8     "infantry division,"  "... from the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa in

 9     order to cut the DKZO," I suppose which stands for area of responsibility

10     of the Drina Corps, in two, and linking the enclaves with the central

11     part of the territory of the former B and H held by the Muslim forces.

12             The next paragraph.  "During the last few days, the Muslim forces

13     from the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica were particularly active."  They

14     are infiltrating DTG, which stands for sabotage and terrorist groups?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   "Who are attacking and burning unprotected villages, killing

17     civilians and small isolated units around the enclaves of Zepa and

18     Srebrenica.  They are persistently trying to persistently trying to link

19     up the enclaves and open a corridor to Kladanj" and so on and so forth.

20     This is a rather long document.  On the next page we can see what the

21     intelligence organs' tasks were.

22             After looking at this document with the OTP, do you remember

23     whether there was any discussion in your command about this order to

24     launch an attack which was as part of a Krivaja 95 operation,

25     particularly the part pertaining to your brigade?

Page 7869

 1        A.   This is an order to -- for active operations.  You can see who it

 2     is addressed to, and the Bratunac Brigade indeed received this order too.

 3     Actually, I'm confirming that based on what I see on the screen.

 4             Before I came to The Hague and before I was given documents by

 5     the OTP, I had never seen this order before.

 6             Following this order, and that is a standard procedure, combat

 7     documents have to be drawn up.  So after this order had been received,

 8     the Bratunac Brigade did not draw up complete combat documents for the

 9     operation in Srebrenica and its participation concerning its role.

10     Therefore, what I know is that an order was prepared by the Bratunac

11     Brigade, I think for active combat operations, that laid down the tasks

12     of the Bratunac Brigade units, mainly infantry battalions.  So the

13     Bratunac Brigade commander decided to issue tasks in that way.

14     Concerning this order for active combat operations, as I said, I hadn't

15     had an opportunity to see it before.

16        Q.   Now given that you were an intelligence officer at the time, you

17     are familiar with the facts that I just read and that Mr. Zivanovic makes

18     reference about the situation in the enclaves.

19        A.   Well, these are typical facts and typical language used in these

20     kind of orders, so I'm familiar with these things.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

22     into evidence, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May it please be given an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit D134.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 7870

 1             Are you going to move away from this topic?  It's just that I

 2     have a question for the witness.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, please, ask the question.  Feel

 4     free to interrupt me.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Nikolic, at page 54 in today's transcript, you

 6     said, and starting from line 9, "You're asking about my level, my level,

 7     my brigade, my organ.  We were not discussing the issue that you just

 8     raised.  Was there perhaps discussed an a level higher up?  I don't

 9     know."

10             Now, this is after you have said -- after had you been shown your

11     statement that you wrote from Finland, in which you told the intentions

12     of the VRS.  My question to you is:  At your level, at your organ, at

13     your brigade, where did you get the information that you wrote in your

14     statement, in the statement that you made in Finland?  As to the

15     intentions of VRS.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think I already answered

17     this question, but I will endeavour to give you an answer in the best

18     possible way I can.

19             The intentions of the Army of Republika Srpska, or, rather, the

20     intentions underlying the attack on Srebrenica, at the time, I primarily

21     understand, as intentions concerning the -- the enclave of Srebrenica.

22     Immediately before the attack on the Srebrenica enclave, the Bratunac

23     Brigade was visited by the then corps commander, General Zivanovic, who

24     was en route to some other destination.  That happened about two weeks

25     before the attack.  That was not an official meeting.  He actually came

Page 7871

 1     to his native village.  He just dropped by to the brigade and he spoke on

 2     that occasion about what was going to happen in the forthcoming days.

 3     And he said that these two enclave, Zepa and Srebrenica, had to be

 4     separated physically and that had to be done urgently, that Srebrenica

 5     had to be reduced to an urban area, and these were the arguments that I

 6     knew about at the time.

 7             When the counsel asked me about that, I said that I never

 8     understood and realized that objective of the VRS was as I stated in the

 9     statement.  I was talking about the information that I had available to

10     me two weeks prior to the operation, and this is indeed what happened in

11     the days after the commencement of the operation.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             Is your -- your question -- your answer to my question that you

14     got this information from Commander -- I forget his name.  The commander

15     of the ... sorry.  Zivanovic.

16             Is that your short answer?  Is that what Zivanovic told you two

17     weeks prior to the attack as what the intentions of the VRS were?  A yes

18     or no will help.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the information I had and

20     that was the first time I heard about what was going to happen.  Yes, I

21     heard it for the first time from General Zivanovic about the intentions

22     concerning Srebrenica.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And those intentions are as you put them in your

24     statement in Finland, your written statement?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The intention was to separate

Page 7872

 1     the two enclaves and also everything else that I put in my statement.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             Yes, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.  I'm sorry about that.

 4             MR. LUKIC:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] We are now going to discuss your encounter

 6     with -- or rather the events that took place outside Hotel Fontana on the

 7     12th.  Your encounter with Mr. Popovic and the conversation that you had

 8     which you have described and which has now become -- became -- become a

 9     part of the transcript of this Tribunal, happened sometime before the

10     10.00 meeting which was held in Hotel Fontana; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   This conversation of yours with Popovic lasted, according to you,

13     five, seven, ten minutes at the most.

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look now at page -- just a

16     moment.  Page of the transcript, which is not part of the 65 ter package.

17     And that's document 1D03-4058, page 4.

18               I gave the wrong number of the page.  It seems I gave the wrong

19     page number.  What I actually need is transcript page, official

20     transcript page, 32918.  It is possible, after all, that this is part of

21     the document P52512.  Yes, we have it.

22        Q.   This is your testimony, Mr. Nikolic, and you say the following,

23     about what Popovic told you.  I'm going to read it.  I'll start from line

24     1:

25             "[In English] [Previous translation continues] ...  he also said

Page 7873

 1     that so-called screening would be carried out in order to separate

 2     able-bodied men, to identify those who had committed or who are suspected

 3     of committing war crimes, et cetera.  However, at this point in time I

 4     really have to provide an additional information.

 5             "After all this, something happened that was absolutely never

 6     planned nor did I grasp from my conversation with Mr. Popovic that

 7     something could happen.  Expect in the first convoy, our -- not only

 8     able-bodied men were separate, but all, all men who were in Potocari were

 9     separated from their families and put on bus -- actually, first detained

10     in Potocari.

11             "Therefore, I asked Mr. Popovic what was going to happen to these

12     men ..."

13             [Interpretation] I'm not going to read any further.

14             What I'm interested in is the following.  When did you find out

15     with respect to this conversation with Popovic that you had, that all men

16     from Potocari would be separated?

17        A.   I found out that morning, then, what, roughly speaking, would be

18     happening, what the next tasks were, and what would become of the men who

19     were still in Srebrenica.

20             At this point for the first time officially, I believe,

21     Mr. Popovic was officially my superior.  If you look at the chain of

22     command.  This was the first time I found out about what in the roughest

23     of terms would be happening.  Even prior to this conversation I assumed

24     what would be happening to those people there, that they would be leaving

25     the enclave, but this was the first I heard of what you have just been

Page 7874

 1     asking me about.

 2        Q.   Therefore, you had not found out about the separation of all men

 3     before you talked to Popovic, right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   My reading of the transcript of your evidence is this.  I see you

 6     asking Popovic what would become of those men because you had just found

 7     out that all the men were being separated.

 8        A.   No, that is a misreading.  If that is your understanding of my

 9     evidence, I think that is false.  I had asked Popovic beforehand.  A

10     meeting took place before any operation to do with this transport even

11     began.  The operation itself began between 1.00 and 2.00 p.m. and the

12     meeting outside the Fontana Hotel was held at about 10.00 a.m. that same

13     day.  The conversation occurred before any transport at all occurred.

14             Any knowledge I had about their status and what else would be

15     happening as part of this operation was from about the -- was from before

16     the 10.00 meeting.

17        Q.   What was your reason for asking Popovic what would become of

18     those men, if you had received no information at all about that prior to

19     this?

20        A.   I asked Mr. Popovic what would be the next steps taken about the

21     men, because there were between 25.000, 40.000 persons in Potocari.  That

22     was my evidence.  If it reads otherwise then it must be about

23     translation.

24             I asked Mr. Popovic what steps would be taken next, about the

25     people who were in Potocari, between 25.000 and 30.000 of them, including

Page 7875

 1     men.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel kindly speak into the microphone,

 3     thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...

 5     of which the portion of the --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... speak into

 7     the microphone, and I'm asking you to also try and find a convenient

 8     moment.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In a minute, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

12        Q.   You looked through a portion of the transcript with Mr. Saxon.

13     You entered certain corrections.  I'm reading what you see in the

14     transcript.  I don't think any corrections were made in relation to that

15     portion.  If I'm wrong, I'm sure Mr. Saxon can put me right -- [In

16     English] [Previous translation continues] ...  what was going to happen

17     to these men because, to be honest, not even then I couldn't understand

18     why these men were being set aside.

19             [Interpretation] This is a sentence that you actually uttered and

20     never corrected.  It's in the transcript.

21        A.   I can only say one thing.  I know exactly what I said.  I know

22     exactly what happened.  If an error was made in the transcript, I didn't

23     read the transcript myself.  There was an interpreter who read it for my

24     benefit.  The interpretation that I received was accurate.  And it

25     amounts to this.  After the meeting with Popovic and during our

Page 7876

 1     conversation I asked what the next steps would be that would be taken in

 2     Potocari.  He then told me that all the women and civilian -- that's what

 3     I said, and I can only repeat it now.  And that was my evidence.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I move that we now take a break.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  We will take a break and come back at

 6     half past.

 7             Court adjourned.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] We were talking about your meeting with

13     Mr. Popovic outside the Fontana Hotel, before the meeting, on the 12th of

14     July.

15             As far as I understand your conversation with Kosoric, you said

16     the substance of that conversation was more or less the same as the one

17     with Kosoric but that one occurred after the meeting, again outside the

18     Fontana Hotel.

19        A.   Yes, I talked to Kosoric as well when we met on the plateau

20     outside the Fontana Hotel.

21        Q.   Some questions about your meeting with General Mladic on the 13th

22     of July as you were on the way to Konjevic Polje, right?  That was

23     sometime about noon, 12.30 p.m. to be more accurate, right?

24        A.   I said in my evidence that I arrived Konjevic Polje at about

25     12.30 and the meeting with General Mladic occurred some 40 or 45 minutes

Page 7877

 1     later.

 2        Q.   You reached that location and you expected that General Mladic

 3     would be there.  You went there of your own accord, and then you found

 4     out that he would be taking a shortcut; right?

 5        A.   Yes.  I went there, because I was the head of the intelligence

 6     and security organ.  Among my other tasks, my task was also to check that

 7     the roads to be taken by General Mladic was safe.

 8        Q.   Can we please go back to your statement of facts?  This is P2512,

 9     B/C/S page is 4 and the English page is 4.  The paragraph number is 9 of

10     the agreement.

11             That is where you describe the event?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not going to tender 034058?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.  No.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's part of the transcript.

16             P2512.  There we have the English; and the Serbian, page 9.

17        Q.   Can you please read this slowly to avoid reading everything.

18        A.   What exactly?

19        Q.   I want to know about the facts.  You arrived Konjevic Polje and

20     then what did you state exactly in your agreement on facts?  It's the

21     last portion of this page, and then we can flip the page and read what it

22     says on the next page, how you describe your meeting with General Mladic.

23        A.   Yes, I've read it.  I've read the portion that you said.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to the next page in

25     B/C/S, please.

Page 7878

 1        Q.   You go on to describe what happened.  I'm not interested in that.

 2     Right?

 3             My question:  The agreement concerning facts, you describe your

 4     meeting with General Mladic.  You never mentioned the gesture that he

 5     made, that indicated to you that he was saying that the people would be

 6     killed.  It's not anywhere to be found -- it's nowhere to be found in

 7     this agreement; right?

 8        A.   Yes, that's right.

 9        Q.   At the time that he were talking to the OTP did you simply forget

10     about this and then you remembered this detail later on, or perhaps you

11     did you not want to share this detail with the Prosecutor at the time,

12     considering it to not be important.

13        A.   I don't know exactly why this is not in the facts.  I do believe

14     that I mentioned the gesture in all of my evidence.  My lawyers drew up

15     the facts.  I don't know why that was not included.  It wasn't me who

16     drew this up.

17             I didn't make any suggestions to the effect that it should not be

18     included.  I do believe we discussed this gesture when we talked prior to

19     the signing of the agreement.  I think it was raised.

20        Q.   Do you agree with me that this information is exceptionally

21     important.  Your understanding of what Mladic said would happen to those

22     people.  You were asked about this each and every time you testified at

23     trial.  You were asked about this fact; right?

24        A.   I believe that all the facts that I'm talking about exceptionally

25     important, including this one.

Page 7879

 1        Q.   A while ago we talked about why you mentioned to the Prosecutor

 2     this untruth about your involvement in the Kravica incident.  You talked

 3     about that.  But you didn't think to offer to the Prosecution this fact

 4     so that this fact too might become a part of your agreement on facts, how

 5     exactly Ratko Mladic gestured to you with his hand.  You were not adamant

 6     that your lawyers should talk about that too, right?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 8             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, the witness has already responded to

 9     this question.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to be as precise as

12     possible, and then the Chamber might be of the opinion that I'm repeating

13     myself.

14        Q.   Were you adamant when talking to your lawyers that this fact

15     should make the agreement?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic, there is an objection on the

17     table.  You have got do respond to the objection.

18             Question asked and answered, is the objection.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

20             I was about to rephrase the question so the Chamber would not

21     have to rule on the objection.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But an objection must be ruled upon, Mr. Lukic.

23     You've got to explain why you want to rephrase, if it has been asked and

24     answered.  What's unclear about the question and answer?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please, Your Honours.

Page 7880

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have a minute.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll just drop the question and press

 3     on.

 4        Q.   So when you spoke to General Mladic, the two of you were standing

 5     alone.  Mladic's body-guards were not paying attention to your

 6     conversation, were they?

 7        A.   I don't know if the body-guards were paying attention or not.  I

 8     do not know that.  What I do know is what happened -- what transpired

 9     between me and General Mladic, or, rather, what I as a soldier did.  I

10     know that.  There were many body-guards with him, were they listening,

11     were they looking, did they hear what we said, I really don't know.

12        Q.   Let's look at your answer in the Blagojevic case.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please 1D03-3116, page 46.

14     The transcript page in the Blagojevic case is 2245.

15             If we could please scroll down to line 20.  Thank you.

16        Q.   I'll read back to you what you stated at the time.

17             "Q. [In English] And it was just you and him having this

18     conversation at the time?

19             "A. Yes.  I was reporting to him, and they -- then just the two

20     of us continued the conversation about this.

21             "Q. But I guess what I'm trying to make sure that we all

22     understand, there was nobody else there to hear this supposed

23     conversation that took place between you and General Mladic.  That's the

24     question.  There was no one there to verify that this conversation did,

25     indeed, take place."

Page 7881

 1             Answer --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If can you scroll down, please.  Let's see the

 3     answer.

 4             MR. LUKIC:

 5             "A. Mr. Karnavas, no one could have been in the immediate

 6     vicinity of me and General Mladic.  I've already told you that around us

 7     there were security people at a distance, which is normal.  They weren't

 8     close to us.  They weren't listening to our conversation.  And it is not

 9     customary for them to be there.  They were at a normal distance.  There

10     were several of them, several soldiers who were securing the spot where

11     the two of us were standing."

12        Q.   [Interpretation] That's -- testimony under oath in the

13     Blagojevic.  That's what you said at the time, that no one was listening

14     to your conversation.

15        A.   Mr. Lukic I stand by everything that I've said.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

17             MR. SAXON:  Once again, Your Honour, asked and answered at page

18     69, lines 15 through 22.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] He provided a different answer as

20     opposed to what his evidence was some minutes ago.  I am confronting the

21     witness with his previous testimony.  I'm confronting him with what he

22     said earlier on, and this is in keeping with your guidelines, Your

23     Honours.  There is a discrepancy.  When he testified now he said that

24     there were people who were or were not listening and previously he said

25     something that was completely different.  That is what my question is

Page 7882

 1     about.

 2             MR. SAXON:  I -- I will accept Mr. Lukic's point, that there is a

 3     distinction.  However, what Mr. Lukic just said, that the witness --

 4     when -- where he testified now, he said that there were people who were

 5     or were not listening.  What the witness said a few minutes ago is that

 6     he does not remember if the body-guards were paying attention or not.

 7     That is the much smaller distinction, Your Honour.  This is at page 69,

 8     line 18.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

10             MR. LUKIC:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] So you realise what you stated then and what you

12     state now; how you observed Mladic's body-guards, and then you stated

13     what I have just quoted.

14        A.   I understand, Mr. Lukic.  I understand.  May I just be allowed to

15     answer that question?

16             The gist of what I said the first time around and all of the

17     subsequent times and today, it's all the same to me.  To me, and I know

18     what actually was happening on the ground.  I know what the situation

19     was.  You asked me - or at least that was interpreted in the

20     interpretation that I received - did I know, was I aware, whether

21     Mladic's security men heard this, the people who were around him, and my

22     answer was I don't know if they heard.  Were they there, I explained.  I

23     know exactly where they were.  Were they paying attention?  I believe

24     not.  That was my impression.  I think that they were mindful of other

25     things at the time.  My opinion was they weren't paying attention, but

Page 7883

 1     that doesn't rule out the possibility that some of them might have

 2     overheard something.  I don't know that for a fact.  But everything that

 3     I said in my response to Mr. Karnavas is exactly the same thing as I'm

 4     telling you now.  General Mladic came.  There was a military police squad

 5     from the Bratunac Brigade there.  His personal security body-guards were

 6     there were, and it's not that they were standing two steps away from the

 7     General.  They took up their standard positions as one does in a

 8     military.

 9             I assume, I believe, that they weren't listening at all or indeed

10     heard any portion of our conversation.  That is my opinion.

11        Q.   That's fair enough, and I agree that you now accept your evidence

12     from the Blagojevic case; right?

13        A.   If I may just add something else for the sake of completeness, to

14     have a complete truth.

15             As I said at the outset, I'm not able to quote with precision

16     something that I said five years ago in my evidence.  I'm simply unable

17     to do that.

18        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I know what you're trying to say.

19        A.   But the gist, I'm trying to convey the gist of a truth that I put

20     forward the first time around.

21        Q.   No one hears expects you to provide exact quotes or to repeat

22     things.  I'm just confronting you with certain things.  I think it's only

23     fair that I should remind you of stuff you said earlier on.  No one here

24     believes that you should offer a word perfect rendition of something you

25     said five years ago, but if you tell us now something that seems to be a

Page 7884

 1     discrepancy in relation previous transcripts, I have to confront you with

 2     that.

 3        A.   Needless to say, Mr. Lukic, I am perfectly willing to provide any

 4     additional discrepancies that may or may not arise in terms of bits of

 5     phrasing and so on and so forth.  I do hope, nevertheless, that I was

 6     always saying the same thing and that I'm still saying the same thing.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Hold it.

 8             Mr. Nikolic, will you please pause a while after the question to

 9     allow interpreter to interpret, and when you start to speak, try to speak

10     slowly.  I heard the interpreter almost breaking his neck trying to catch

11     up with you.  Okay?  Thank you so much.

12             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I will do my best, Your Honour, to

14     comply with your request.

15             MR. LUKIC:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] In the briefest of terms, please describe for

17     the Chamber what happened involving the Kravica crime or incident that

18     occurred on the afternoon of the 13th; right?

19             Okay.  Let's not go into dates here.  What exactly did you hear?

20     How did that come about.  What happened there?  Briefly, please.  You

21     were later provided information about this.  I would like the Chamber to

22     hear what you heard as to how the crime at Kravica had occurred.

23        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't there.  I was not a witness to the

24     Kravica crime.  I found out at a later date what had occurred on the 13th

25     of July, 1995, in Kravica.  Based on such information, as I came by,

Page 7885

 1     there were captured Muslims at Kravica, who had surrendered or been

 2     arrested, captured, along that road and in the general

 3     Kravica-Sandici-Pervane area at the time, within that general area.

 4     Those captured were taken to this facility owned by the farming

 5     cooperative of Kravica.  They were detained there.  This is it a hangar,

 6     a co-op hangar such as they were at the time, concrete hanger.

 7        Q.   Just please describe how the incident came about, because the

 8     Chamber knows everything about everything else.

 9        A.   The information that reached me was as follows.  There had been

10     an incident between those securing the prisoners and the prisoners.  One

11     of the prisoners seized a rifle from a person who - my information

12     suggests that it was one of the soldiers or officers securing them.  This

13     person then used this rifle to fire at one of the security men there,

14     killing one and wounding another, apparently.

15             Following this incident, there was an act of revenge by this

16     unit, the unit that the man who had apparently been killed belonged to.

17     I don't know if that was true or not.  My task, the task that I was given

18     in relation to this incident was as follows.  To establish whether any

19     members of the Bratunac Brigade, my unit, were involved and quite simply

20     to try and find out which body was responsible for this crime.  I did

21     just that and I duly informed the corps command.

22        Q.   All right.  Let's discuss your evidence about the meeting with

23     Mr. Beara and Mr. Deronjic on 13th of July.

24             There were two meetings, as a matter of fact.  The first meeting

25     with Mr. Beara at about 2000 hours, unless I'll wrong, in the centre of

Page 7886

 1     Bratunac; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And then just before midnight or about midnight, again, another

 4     meeting in the SDS office in Bratunac with Deronjic and Vasic in

 5     attendance; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   This is something you clarified in this trial, and it's now part

 8     of your evidence.  You were not actively involved in their conversation.

 9     You were as a matter of fact in another room, in an adjacent room,

10     listening to what was going on.  I'm talking about the conversation that

11     occurred at midnight on the SDS premises with Deronjic and Beara; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You gave evidence to the effect that Mr. Beara asked you to come

14     with him to this meeting with Deronjic, simply because he didn't know

15     where the SDS premises in Bratunac were located.

16        A.   I said what I said in that particular context.  Mr. Beara asked

17     me to take him to the SDS office.  I assume that, at the time, I also

18     said that he either didn't know the way there or was not willing to go

19     alone.  He asked me to accompany him, which is just what I did.

20        Q.   The office is this in that same square in the centre of Bratunac

21     where had you previously met Beara at about 2000 hours; right?

22        A.   Yes.  That office and all the other offices are there in that

23     square, because that is the only square there is.

24        Q.   My understanding was that throughout the 13th of July you were

25     moving about all the time.  So that evening, following Beara's request,

Page 7887

 1     you took that macadam road and went far away in the direction of the

 2     command post of the Zvornik Brigade in order to convey to Drago Nikolic

 3     the information that Beara had asked you to convey to him; right?

 4        A.   I think this -- you weren't really accurate when you talked about

 5     this.  You are --

 6        Q.   I'm trying to not to be confused about this myself.  At about

 7     2000 hours, you say you are meeting Beara in the Bratunac square; right?

 8        A.   8.30 p.m., to be more specific, on the 13th of July.  Colonel

 9     Beara summoned me and I reported to him at the specified location in the

10     centre of Bratunac.

11        Q.   So he goes on to tell you that the prisoners would be moved to

12     Zvornik municipality, and you should inform Drago Nikolic about this; is

13     that right?

14        A.   Again, I have to set this right.

15             He ordered me to do something and specified what it was.  I

16     received his order to go to Zvornik and inform Drago Nikolic to tell

17     Drago Nikolic, to convey to him, Mr. Beara's order about the fact that on

18     that day, the transfer of prisoners from Bratunac to Zvornik municipality

19     would commence.

20        Q.   All right.  That was my understanding.  That's why I was confused

21     for a while then you said I misunderstood.  All right.  You left and then

22     you returned, how much later?  How long did you take to complete this

23     journey and return to Bratunac?

24        A.   Well, all right.  8.30 p.m., about 15 minutes to reach Zvornik,

25     spending some time at Zvornik Brigade HQ, and then travelling back I

Page 7888

 1     would have made Bratunac again sometime before midnight or about

 2     midnight, or thereabouts.

 3        Q.   All right.  You're back and Beara again summons you to take him

 4     to see Deronjic in the SDS office; right?

 5        A.   Once I was back it was my duty to report to Colonel Beara about

 6     completing the mission and carrying out his order.  I went to see him and

 7     I reported to him, "Colonel, sir, I have carried out your order.  I am

 8     now back from Zvornik, and I conveyed to the other person what you had

 9     asked me to."

10        Q.   And then he asked you to go with him.  Where was that place where

11     you reported to him?

12        A.   In the Fontana -- the Hotel Fontana.

13        Q.   And how far is that from the SDS premises?

14        A.   About 100 metres at the most.  Maybe not even that much.

15        Q.   If necessary we can put this on the screen.  But I assume that

16     you remember your agreement of facts, and let's not risk any error.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But can we please look at

18     P2P12 [as interpreted], B/C/S page 5.  English, I think it's paragraph

19     10, actually, so it's probably five in the English as well.

20        Q.   And this is where you talk about this meeting at the SDS offices

21     around midnight in Bratunac on the 13th of July.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  [Previous translation continues] ...

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P2512, agreement of the facts,

24     statement of facts.  Page 5, I think, in the B/C/S.  In any case,

25     paragraph 10 of the statement of facts.

Page 7889

 1             I think it's the following page, actually, in the B/C/S; I

 2     apologise.  It's marked paragraph 10.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Both on -- okay.  Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So it's two pages or three pages

 5     more.  Unfortunately, we're seeing both pages in English now, but,

 6     anyway, it's the correct page in the English.

 7             Can we just scroll up the B/C/S part I'm interested in --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 9             MR. SAXON:  I was just going to offer my hard copy of the B/C/S,

10     but it's on the screen right now.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   Here, in the statement of facts you refer to this meeting and you

14     say, I'm reading the last paragraph where you say --

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the last

16     paragraph and here it starts:  "To deal with the situation..."

17        Q.   "To deal with this situation it was -- this created an unstable

18     situation around Bratunac town.  To deal with this situation," --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Lukic the last paragraph starts in the

20     English "at that time the Bratunac town was ..."

21             I don't know where you are reading.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I -- yes, I tried to skip

23     that first part.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... tell us which

25     sentence you're starting at now.  It was late.

Page 7890

 1             MR. LUKIC:  To deal with this --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, okay.

 3             MR. LUKIC:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] "To deal with the situation, Colonel Beara, M,

 5     Deronjic, (the civilian commissioner appointed by Karadzic to deal with

 6     the Muslim civilians issues) Dragomir Vasic and myself met in the SDS

 7     office in Bratunac.  Deronjic was concerned that the prisoners in the

 8     town created a security risk and did want the killing of these prisoners

 9     to be carried out in Bratunac and around Bratunac.  The killing operation

10     was openly discussed at the meeting and all participants indicated that

11     they had been reporting to their various superior commands.  Logistics,

12     transportation, and security support were also discussed," and so on and

13     so forth.

14             This document that you signed, and I see that, as it states here,

15     you were a participant in this meeting.  In all your subsequent testimony

16     you said that you were not, that your level was not such that you would

17     take part in this meeting but that you were in the next office or in the

18     office next door.

19             My question is, why is then the statement of fact -- fact like

20     this and why is this a part of it?

21        A.   Well, I have to answer that not every word was really taken into

22     account and because of that I told the Trial Chamber when I received the

23     statement or the order --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the date.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- to write things I way I thought

Page 7891

 1     they should be, and then I specified exactly my own position and it was

 2     very important to me to do that, because of my overall responsibility, to

 3     make it known exactly what I did, what I was responsible for, and where I

 4     had been.  Specifically and precisely.  Please, I am -- I'm obliged to

 5     answer.  So I was at the SDS premises, I was in the area where the

 6     meeting was held on those premises, and I did see the participants of the

 7     meeting who were at some three to five metres away from me, but I was not

 8     an active participant in the meeting, and this is what I wanted to the

 9     specify.  And when you read this passage, paragraph 10, then you need to

10     read the passage together with the supplemental statement where I made

11     another correction.  Now what you read it -- well, to avoid

12     misunderstanding, the participants of the meeting - I don't know whether

13     they sent reports to their superior commands after the meetings - but in

14     discussing the fate of the captured Muslims in Bratunac and what was to

15     happen with them subsequently, they referred to instructions they

16     received from their superiors.  In the conversation, and this is

17     something that I talked about, and this is now what you read.  This is my

18     clarification and this is my answer.

19        Q.   When you were negotiating with the OTP and when you drafted the

20     statement of facts, you wanted to present yourself as having a higher

21     position than you actually did in the events; is that correct?

22        A.   Mr. Lukic, nobody intelligent or normal would do something like

23     that.  They would not exaggerate their own role in relation to the

24     position that they held.  I mean, this is not a happy end we're talking

25     about.  These are criminal indictments for serious crimes, where I am

Page 7892

 1     charged for something that I did not participate in.  It was not

 2     something that even occurred to me to present myself as someone occupying

 3     a higher post than I actually did.  I both in the statement of facts and

 4     in my subsequent testimony, and now I wish my position to be known

 5     precisely and accurately in that operation at the time this operation

 6     Srebrenica was taking place, nothing more than that.

 7        Q.   Well, you often said in your testimony that this is what you want

 8     and this is also part of your statement of facts, that you wished for

 9     your precise place in the events to be known.  And when you were entering

10     into a plea bargain with the Prosecution, you said that nobody

11     intelligent would do something like that, and I am saying that you

12     perhaps had an interest in presenting yourself in a more important light

13     to receive a more favourable agreement; is that correct?

14        A.   Well, I know you would like me to just answer with a yes or a no,

15     but you really need to hear the truth.

16        Q.   I'm not stopping you.

17        A.   My lawyers who were drafting this at the time, in my estimate,

18     and I testified, did not do the job the way it should have been done, and

19     they were not actually working completely in my interest, and my lawyers

20     admitted - after everything had happened and after the first instance

21     ruling - they admitted that they did not specify my position in the

22     entire picture and that they had made a cardinal mistake in terms of my

23     position and my status in this -- these entire events, and so I didn't

24     really want -- I tried in the supplemental statement to say that I was

25     unjustly placed and positioned as a high-ranking officer which I actually

Page 7893

 1     never was.

 2        Q.   I think that it does not state anywhere you were highly -- high

 3     ranking officer.  It says, and I'm interpreting, that at the time you

 4     said that you were a participant in this conversation, and before you

 5     signed it you read this statement, did you not, in your own language?

 6        A.   The statement of facts you are thinking of?  Yes, did I read it,

 7     and I did, as far as the complete statement is concerned and the

 8     accompanying documents, I had one day to cover them.  I received it on

 9     the 6th, we worked for three hours, and then on the 7th the statement --

10     actually, on the 6th I was supposed to state my position on it before the

11     Trial Chamber.  And you can believe me, I'm speaking most sincerely, had

12     I had time to analyse all of this, I would have made all the corrections

13     which I actually made later in order to have the truth manifested.

14        Q.   All right.  Very well.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. LUKIC:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] One more clarification.

18             Earlier, and I understood your testimony in those terms anyway.

19     That was that Beara, around 2000 hours in the evening was sending you to

20     the Zvornik territory to convey information that the prisoners would be

21     transferred to the Zvornik area during that night later; is that correct?

22     Why was there a discussion then between him and Deronjic who, as you

23     said, did not accept to have these prisoners in their territory?

24        A.   Well, I know you cannot understand that and I was not able to

25     understand that as well.  Believe me, there are two things and that is:

Page 7894

 1     He was sending me to Zvornik, for the prisoners to be transferred to

 2     Zvornik, then I returned -- I mean, I conveyed this order from Beara, and

 3     then there was a conflict between Beara and Miroslav Deronjic.  I

 4     absolutely agree with you that this is absurd, but at the same time

 5     believe me that in that time-period, that evening on the 12th, the 13th,

 6     that there was such confusion and that simply orders and decisions were

 7     changing from hour most probably.  I explained that in my previous

 8     testimony.  Probably what happened was that there was a change in the

 9     decision, probably somebody was asking Colonel Beara to --

10        Q.   Well let us not go into that.

11        A.   Anyway, what I'm say is that is how I understood it.  It is

12     absurd, but this is actually what truly happened.

13        Q.   I'm asking what you actually know.  I'm not asking you to

14     speculate, but all right.

15             Mr. Beara was in uniform was he not?

16        A.   I always saw him in uniform.  He was in uniform on that occasion

17     as well.

18        Q.   He was in uniform that evening.  That is how you testified to

19     date.  One witness before this Trial Chamber here said that Mr. Beara

20     that evening at that meeting was actually wearing civilian clothing, and

21     I'm referring now, Your Honours, to transcript of the 25th of May of this

22     year, page 6482.

23        A.   All I can do is confirm the following.  When I saw Colonel Beara,

24     the first time as well and next time that evening, too, Colonel Beara was

25     always in uniform as well as all the other officers.  I did not see any

Page 7895

 1     single officer in that period of the operation in civilian clothes, and

 2     it would have been inappropriate for anyone in the middle of the

 3     operation to be wearing civilian clothing.  I cannot accept that as

 4     truthful.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.

 6        Q.   When you testified in the cases before the Bosnia and Herzegovina

 7     court, you said that you received certain documents.  Are you aware that

 8     Mr. Dragomir Vasic testified there?  Did you receive statements by him on

 9     that event?

10        A.   No, I didn't have the opportunity.  I had the opportunity to read

11     Vasic's statement that he provided to the OTP investigators.  I did not

12     have any access to any other statements.

13        Q.   Well, he is also stating that you were not present at the

14     meeting, and you two know each other; don't you?

15        A.   We don't actually know each other.  Before the Srebrenica

16     operation we had never seen each other.  We never met one another, but I

17     know very well who Vasic is.

18        Q.   He was the head of the public security centre in Zvornik.  I'm

19     thinking of him; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes, he was the chief of the Zvornik public security centre.

21        Q.   And you never had any disagreements; did you?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Mr. Miroslav Deronjic was your son-in-law was he not?

24        A.   Well, you could say that.  My sister -- actually, brother-in-law.

25     My sister, even though she was not married to Deronjic, was his partner,

Page 7896

 1     so you could put it like that, brother-in-law.

 2        Q.   So here in the DU of The Hague Tribunal you spoke, among things,

 3     about what he knows about the -- those events in that meeting on the 13th

 4     in the evening and your attendance at the meeting.  The two of you did

 5     discuss that?

 6        A.   Yes, I think so on one occasion, and very briefly.

 7        Q.   And you know, because this was stated in the Popovic case when

 8     you testified, that when he testified that he said that he cannot

 9     remember but he also was a witness in your sentencing hearing, he said

10     that he did not recall seeing you at that meeting or in the room next

11     door; do you recall that?

12        A.   No, it's not quite like that.  He did not rule out the

13     possibility that I had been there, but in any event I understand why he

14     would say something like that.  He did not absolutely rule out the

15     possibility that I had been at the -- or, rather, in the premises where

16     the meeting was held.

17        Q.   Now we're going to look at -- oh, never mind.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment.

19             We are now going to look at 1D03-4298, page 58.

20             Your Honours, this is the testimony of 33191, that is the

21     transcript page, and it is testimony in the Popovic case.

22        Q.   This is the testimony of Mr. -- or the reading of the testimony

23     of Mr. Deronjic from the proceedings conducted in your sentencing

24     hearing.  I'm reading the first part:

25             [In English] [Previous translation continues] ...  "I reiterated

Page 7897

 1     my position that I did not recall whether Mr. Nikolic was present at the

 2     meeting or not, but I did leave a theoretical possibility, more in the

 3     [indiscernible] or theory, that perhaps he could have been present, but I

 4     did not register that or remember that."

 5             [Interpretation] That is what he said at your sentencing hearing.

 6     You remember that; right?

 7        A.   Yes, of course, I do.

 8        Q.   You were also confronted with Mr. Deronjic's testimony -- oh, by

 9     the way, do you know happen to know who Ljubisa Simic is?

10        A.   Of course, I do.  Of course.

11        Q.   He was is municipal president.

12        A.   The chairman of the municipal assembly of the Bratunac

13     municipality.

14        Q.   You know that Deronjic claims he was at the meeting too.  Did you

15     see him there?

16        A.   When I was there in that room, Simic was not there.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please go to a different

18     page from the same portion of evidence -- or, rather, it is the same

19     page.  Just a minute, please.

20             Can we please move this up a little.  There.

21        Q.   The portion of the transcript is little complicated because

22     Defence counsel is quoting Mr. Deronjic said.  And then he shows who this

23     is in reference to.  But in order to simplify, I will ask you like this.

24     If need be, we will read this.

25             Do you remember being confronted with Deronjic's statement that

Page 7898

 1     -- to the effect that you told him that you had not been at that meeting

 2     and that you only heard about the meeting from Mr. Beara?

 3        A.   I don't know if Deronjic said that.  I don't know when I was

 4     shown this or confronted.  I'm not doubting what you are putting to me at

 5     all.  What I'm telling you is that these are blatant lies.  That is all I

 6     can say.  The insinuation that I --

 7        Q.   I will have to read this back to you with this portion as quoted

 8     to you by Mr. Ostojic when he was examining you:

 9             [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... "then

10     Mr. Deronjic goes on to say, I will try to quote him, you, Mr. Nikolic,

11     as much as he, meaning you, Mr. Nikolic, said, Well, I wasn't there.  I

12     wasn't present in the office.  I was really confused ... said

13     Mr. Deronjic ... so how could you have talked about the conversation that

14     was conducted at the office, and he said ..." meaning, you, Mr. Nikolic,

15     "... that the details and the gist of the conversation ... learned

16     directly from Mr. Beara."  That's what you said.

17             [Interpretation] I knew this would confuse you somewhat, but my

18     question is a simple one.  Did you ever tell Mr. Deronjic that you were

19     not at that meeting and that you heard about that meeting from Mr. Beara?

20     As simple as that.

21        A.   I did say that I was not in the office in which they were.  That

22     is true.  The only truth about the whole thing that you have just read

23     back is I was not in that office, in the same office where the meeting

24     was in progress.  It is, however, true that I was in that building, the

25     SDS HQ, in a hall that is adjacent to the office in which they were

Page 7899

 1     holding this meeting.  They were talking, quarrelling, and so on and so

 2     forth.  That much is true.

 3        Q.   You were also confronted in an earlier statement by Mr. Deronjic

 4     in the Popovic trial.  Deronjic said it would have been easier to track

 5     down Henry Kissinger than you in Bratunac?  Do you remember him saying

 6     that?  Do you want us to go back to that portion?

 7        A.   No.  No, thank you.  I know this by heart.  I don't have this

 8     read back to me; I know Deronjic's statement by heart.  Let me tell you

 9     this, however.  Since you insist on having my opinion, Miroslav Deronjic

10     was defending himself.  I understand that.  I sympathize.  In any event

11     Miroslav Deronjic was 50 times as responsible and as well informed about

12     everything as I was.  That what it was about.

13        Q.   May I ask you something.  Why is then that you know

14     Mr. Deronjic's statement by heart?

15        A.   I know that portion because it is very typical.  Of course, I

16     didn't mean that literally.  I may actually know about 2 percent of this

17     statement, but the portion that I read, I simply refuse to believe that

18     this man could state anything like that at all, as if I have been the

19     vice-president of the SDS, not him.  I was a reserve captain, no more

20     than that.  Miroslav Deronjic was the vice-president or deputy president

21     of the SDS, and he was in charge of all the of the civilian population in

22     Potocari and Bratunac.

23        Q.   Fine.  I will ask you some questions now, briefly, about that

24     part of your testimony that relates to the graves being dug up, as we

25     call it.

Page 7900

 1             You were given your part of the task by Mr. Popovic, right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   When he imparted this task to you, you two were alone in that

 4     room, were you not?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Who was it who told that you the operation was a secret one?

 7        A.   Well, its very nature and everything that was going on at the

 8     time indicated to me that it would be a secret operation.

 9        Q.   So you acted on that.  You treated this as a secret operation,

10     you personally.

11        A.   Yes, I did.  But that had nothing to do with secrecy or whatever.

12        Q.   We have that part of your testimony.

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   Just a couple of questions about something that I think you

15     talked about in the Blagojevic trial.

16             You talked about what I shall call a peculiarity, a minor

17     peculiarity in terms of how the Bratunac Brigade was bank-rolled.  You

18     said that the municipality provided materiel and logistical systems to

19     the brigade?  Quite often, actually.  Do you remember saying that?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Would that imply that the municipality in some way financially or

22     materially provided support in terms of weapons, equipment, uniforms for

23     the purposes of the brigade; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did you perhaps know that the same kind of situation prevailed in

Page 7901

 1     other areas in Republika Srpska where brigades were linked to a certain

 2     territory.  Municipal authorities and, perhaps, economic authorities in

 3     certain municipalities provided support for those brigades.

 4        A.   What I know about this, about relations between brigades and

 5     municipalities is this:  In most municipalities the situation was similar

 6     depending on materiel resources.  But it was similar all over the place.

 7     That's as much as I know.

 8        Q.   You told Mr. Saxon in-chief a while ago about the procedure for

 9     initiating criminal proceedings against someone.  You said there was

10     lawyer in the brigade who was dealing with such matters as these

11     throughout.

12             Firstly, you will agree me that within the VRS, there was some

13     sort of judicial system in place.  There were military courts, military

14     prosecutors, military disciplinary bodies; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I think you will also agree, although you are no lawyer myself

17     [as interpreted], but you must agree that a criminal complaint can be

18     filed by any citizen against any other citizen; right?

19        A.   That's simply not something that I would do.

20        Q.   Fair enough.  But the intelligence organ and security -- you in

21     your capacity as intelligence organ and security organ and an officer of

22     the VRS, as any other officer, you find out about a fact, about a crime

23     that occurred, you're supposed to inform whoever is in charge of putting

24     this into a legal perspective in that unit and forwarding the matter, if

25     need be, to the military police or the relevant prosecutor.

Page 7902

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   As far as I remember you, yourself, took some pre-investigative

 3     steps over the preceding period, in the sense of carrying out an on-site

 4     investigation, I'm not sure what to call that.

 5        A.   I did exactly what was ordered to do in my brigade.  I never said

 6     here that I did not collect information or evidence about any crimes that

 7     were committed if, indeed, I knew that something like that was going on

 8     in the are of responsibility of my brigade or in my brigade itself.

 9     Nevertheless, specifically, in my brigade, having collected evidence,

10     information, reports, having taken statements and so on and so forth, the

11     person in charge of that in my brigade was the lawyer who did that and

12     that alone.  Why was the situation like that?  I was the intelligence and

13     security organ myself.  For the most part, I'm talking about what my

14     commander required me to whilst to be involved in intellegence work,

15     which would have amounted to 80 percent of my involvement.  As for the

16     security aspect, only far as concerned the command and staff security,

17     protecting one's own unit; that's it.

18     JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry.  I do apologise.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may continue, sir.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my brigade, as far as security

24     work was concerned, I was in charge of securing the equipment, the

25     weapons, the units, their security.  In my brigade, it's my brigade I'm

Page 7903

 1     talking about, in my brigade alone, as for the other component to do with

 2     criminal reports within interrogating people would collecting evidence,

 3     our lawyer was in charge of that.  He was gathering all of this; he was

 4     documenting all of this.  He would then draw up a criminal report and

 5     submit it to the brigade commander to be signed, which the brigade

 6     commander in turn would sign and hand over to the -- the military courts,

 7     military judicial officers.  That was the procedure followed in my

 8     brigade.

 9        Q.   I do understand that.  Nevertheless, you as an intelligence

10     officer, for example, learned that someone stole fuel, that someone

11     deserted their position in a unit.  You don't just sit pretty on that

12     information; you forward this information to someone, and further action

13     is then taken, right?

14        A.   This is a very ordinary situation that you're quoting here;

15     desertion or positions.  It is it not really a crime.  It's a

16     disciplinary infraction or whatever, I'm not sure how that is classified.

17     It is not really a crime.  Nevertheless, you are quite right when you

18     suggest that whatever information reaches me is not something that I keep

19     to myself.  I pass it on to those in charge, and I inform those that I'm

20     duty-bound to keep up-to-date on matters such as these.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move on to 65 ter 7125.

23        Q.   I assume you're familiar with this document.

24        A.   Yes, I've seen this document.

25        Q.   In general terms this is in reference to you; right?

Page 7904

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   This is an earlier period.  This is 1987.

 3             Do you know if there were any pre-criminal proceedings in

 4     progress together Jovanovic Dragoljub [phoen] and Muminovic Nazif

 5     [phoen], criminal proceedings against you?

 6        A.   I can explain anything that you'd like me to about this.

 7        Q.   I don't want to go very far into this.  But do you know that

 8     there were proceedings under way?  It's that simple.

 9        A.   This is about a foreign currency infraction.  These were not

10     proceedings proper.  The reason this was done, I can explain, if you'd

11     like me to do.  But it's not a crime that we're looking at; it is a

12     simple infraction involving foreign currency.

13        Q.   I'm merely reading what it sayings.  It says Article 167,

14     paragraph 1 of the Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

15     Based on what I see, based on information presented here, there was a

16     criminal case under way against you, a pre-criminal, if you like,

17     preliminary criminal investigation for a crime involving foreign currency

18     a crime nevertheless, an offence, if you like.  It was an offence?

19        A.   If the president could please allow me to explain this -- sorry,

20     Mr. Lukic, I don't want to leave it like this.  Let's get out into the

21     open and then hash out all the details, if you like.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... let him

23     answer.

24             Please answer, sir.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed.  Thank you.

Page 7905

 1             I'm trying to answer.

 2             Mr. Lukic you're showing me this document, and you extrapolate

 3     based on what you like, and I'm reading to you the truth. [Indiscernible]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down.  The interpreter actually through his

 5     hands in the air and got exasperated.  Remember he doesn't have that

 6     document before him.

 7             Do you have in Mr. Interpreter?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Indeed, I do, Your Honour, but it is still

 9     impossible to even read from the document at this break-neck speed.

10             Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you please slow down, gentlemen.

12             Thank you very much.

13             Read slowly Mr. Nikolic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

15             "Nikolic Momir, son of Vaso, born the on 20th of February, 1955,

16     in the locality of Ranca, SO Bratunac, is not filed in the criminal and

17     misdemeanour's records.

18             And then what follows is what Mr. Lukic was talking about.  I

19     don't wish to take up your of your time.  I am not reading that, but I

20     will explain what it is about.

21             Never in my life was I punished for a criminal offence or

22     sentenced, convicted.  And you can tell, if you look at this document.

23     This is an offence or a misdemeanour involving foreign currency from 1987

24     involving this.  Nazif Muminovic is a former pupil of mine working in

25     Switzerland.  I purchased from him an amount of 500 Swiss francs.  At the

Page 7906

 1     time, 500 Swiss francs, an amount such as that, constituted an offence.

 2             Two or three months later, the presiding person, Lazar Mojsov

 3     [phoen] adopted a decree or a law, lowering the threshold, according to

 4     which 500 Swiss francs was no longer a criminal offence but, rather, a

 5     misdemeanour, at which point the public security station dropped their

 6     charges and gave up pursuing this as an offence but, rather, declared it

 7     to be a misdemeanour.  But the complaint never got off the ground, and

 8     the Srebrenica court threw this out.  I never actually faced a court of

 9     law.  The charges against me were never formally brought and I never

10     stood accused of anything like this or, indeed, convicted.

11        Q.   I'm just asking -- let me ask you my following --

12        A.   The objective of this criminal report being filed was to get me

13     out of the way at the time, because I was on my way to becoming commander

14     of the public security station in charge of all regional traffic.  They

15     wanted me sidelined out of the way, and that is why they tried to set up

16     this criminal case against me.  That was the only objective, and they

17     achieved their goal because my nomination failed.  That's the whole

18     truth.  I was supposed to become commander of the regional traffic public

19     security station in Zvornik.

20        Q.   I just wanted to ask you a simple question about this document.

21             Do you know anything about what is written here?  How this file

22     or this document went missing under circumstances that were never

23     explained.  Can you tell us anything about that?

24        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't working with the MUP.  Have you to go to

25     them and ask them how the document disappeared.

Page 7907

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I move that this be admitted into

 2     evidence, Your Honour.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Well, Your Honour, the Prosecution would object to

 4     the admission of the -- of the document, given that the -- the defendant

 5     -- excuse me, not the defendant, the witness has just explained that

 6     these were false charges brought against him to keep -- to prevent him

 7     from obtaining a professional position.

 8             In our mind, then, the reliability and probative value of this

 9     document is so little, it should not be admitted.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm not responding at all.  I think

12     the objection is entirely unfounded, any which way we look at it.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I agree with Mr. Lukic, Mr. Saxon.  It's tendered.

14     He has given his explanation.  And it stands as it stands.  It never went

15     to court.  Documents that are tendered into court here support the one

16     side or the other, and any other side can say, This really is not on my

17     side, therefore, it must be thrown out.

18             So the objection is going to be overruled.

19             May the document please be admitted and be given an exhibit

20     number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit D135.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm checking the time.

24     I do have a brief topic to come, but I would like to do it in one piece.

25     SO I think it might be a good idea for us to break now and then press on

Page 7908

 1     tomorrow.  I'm not sure about our schedule tomorrow.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The schedule for tomorrow is that we will be

 3     sitting in the afternoon at quarter past 2.00 in the same courtroom.  So

 4     we stand adjourned.  But before we do so, I'm going to warn you, sir,

 5     that until you excused from the witness stand, you are not allowed to

 6     speak to anybody about the case, now since you have taken the stand.

 7     Okay.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Court adjourned until tomorrow.

10                           -- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of July,

12                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.