Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8007

 1                           Monday, 13 July, 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to -- I beg your pardon.  Good

 6     afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.  I guess we got to say

 7     good morning to the people in New York.  Where are they?  Can we see

 8     them?

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to you, Mr. Sacirbey, and to

11     everybody else in New York.

12             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Good morning.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you hear me?

14             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, we can, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are all looking at me like they can't hear

16     me.

17             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, we can, Your Honour.  Yes, I

18     can.  Can you hear us?  We are speaking back.  We can hear you.  We can

19     hear you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Good afternoon to you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Can

22     you hear us, though?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can now hear you.  Thank you so much.

24     Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

Page 8008

 1     everybody in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

 2     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, could we have appearances for

 4     the day, starting with Prosecution, please.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  It's Barney Thomas,

 6     Lorna Bolton, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  For the Defence,

 8     Mr. Guy-Smith.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon to all.  Milos Androvic,

10     Daniela Tasic, Chad Mair, Tina Drolec, Colleen Rohan, Novak Lukic, and

11     I'm Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Mr. Perisic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.  We go through

13     the ritual, Mr. Sacirbey, just to remind you that you are still bound by

14     the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

15     truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

16             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.  I

17     understand.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  If we could please have 65 ter 6076

20     up on the screen which will be tab number 80, Mr. Registrar.

21                           WITNESS:  MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]

22                           [Witness testified via videolink]

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith: [Continued]

24        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, I note that your lawyer is not in attendance, and I

25     therefore will not be asking you any questions which I believe could

Page 8009

 1     potentially impact upon those issues for which your lawyer is to be with

 2     you.  But could you tell me, please, if you know when your lawyer might

 3     be appearing.

 4        A.   Yes, thank you for that.  He is coming in just the next

 5     15 minutes.  He is coming from out of town.

 6        Q.   Thank you so much.  You previously had an opportunity to look at

 7     the first seven pages of this particular document that's 65 ter 6076,

 8     which were introduced into evidence and have become P2485.  What I would

 9     like you to do, if you could, please, sir, is take a look at the balance

10     of the documents that are contained within tab 80.  And I think it might

11     be more fruitful for you to take a look at them collectively before I ask

12     you any questions.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is this tab 80 what we see on the screen here,

14     Mr. Guy-Smith?

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Just a minute, Your Honour, I'll let you know.

16     Yes, it is.  And I don't know if you are getting static, I am.  Quite a

17     bit, as a matter of fact.  I don't know whether or not the Chamber is

18     experiencing the same thing as I am, it sounds like it's raining rather

19     hard.  It sounds like a Hague storm.  That occurred as a result of me

20     turning off my microphone.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Please turn your microphone off again then.

22             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Mr. Guy-Smith, I think I've reviewed

23     the written material rather quickly.  There is, of course, numerous

24     supporting material with charts.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:

Page 8010

 1        Q.   Exactly.  And with regard to that material, is this material that

 2     you've had an opportunity to see before today?

 3        A.   Again, I believe I've had the opportunity to see the contents, if

 4     not necessarily this exact draft.  At least some of the contents.

 5        Q.   And when you say you've had an opportunity to see some of the

 6     contents, I take it that, for example, if I were to refer you to those

 7     pages that deal with the individual trace analysis report, that is what

 8     you are referring to with regard to having had an opportunity to --

 9        A.   We can't hear you now, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10        Q.   I'm going to try something to see if this works or not.

11             Can you hear me now?  Mr. Sacirbey, can you hear me now?

12        A.   Completely gone.

13        Q.   Can you hear me now, Mr. Sacirbey?

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  All right.  I won't do any more of the Verizon

15     commercial again today.

16             Could I please get the assistance -- could I please have some

17     technical assistance, so I'm able to have a conversation with

18     Mr. Sacirbey.

19        Q.   Can you hear me now, Mr. Sacirbey?

20        A.   Yes, I can.

21        Q.   Good, let's see how this works.  I'd like you to take a look at

22     what would be in e-court page number 34 of 73.  For your purposes it will

23     be, if you look at the bottom of the pages, it would be 0172-1402, which

24     is Appendix 2 to Annex F, ICF inquiry dated 5 May 1995, trace serial

25     number 2.

Page 8011

 1        A.   The date was 5 May, 1995?

 2        Q.   That's correct, Mr. Sacirbey.

 3        A.   Yes, I have it in front of me.

 4        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the assessment of the trace, you'll note

 5     that there it says that the assessment of the trace is unexplained;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And with regard to the lion's share of the appendices that

 9     support the seven-page conclusion that you discussed previously with

10     Ms. Bolton, would it be fair to say, and I'm trying to do this rapidly,

11     that the lion's share of them indicate that the trace -- the assessment

12     of the trace is unexplained, that in those incidents that were

13     scientifically examined by the commission, the issue of border crossing

14     through scientific determination was unexplained?

15        A.   I can certainly see there's several of those explanations.  I

16     cannot make a quick assessment as to what is the dominant assessment of

17     the trace.  I see several different explanations.  But certainly

18     unexplained is on more than one and quite a few in fact.

19        Q.   And with regard -- and I thank you for that answer.  And with

20     regard to another explanation that's given with regard to the issue of

21     assessment of trace, there is the following determination.  For example,

22     if we could go to page 48 of the same document in e-court, which will be

23     0172-1416.  It's trace serial number 15.  The assessment of the trace

24     there is "insufficient data for analysis;" correct?

25        A.   Yes, there's at least one such that I'm looking at.

Page 8012

 1        Q.   If you were to look at the next page, which would be page 49

 2     which is trace serial number 16, you see the same entry, do you not, sir?

 3        A.   I'm trying to make sure I get to the right page.

 4        Q.   0172-1417.

 5        A.   Okay.  I am ahead of myself then.  Yes.

 6        Q.   Would you be willing to accept that between the entries of

 7     unexplained and insufficient data for analysis that covers the lion's

 8     share of those documents that you have just reviewed, with regard to the

 9     question --

10        A.   That seems like a --

11        Q.   With regard to the question of unexplained border crossings?

12        A.   Along with insufficient data for further analysis, that seems to

13     be by far the lion's share.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would move the admission of the remainder of

16     this particular exhibit which was previously given the number of P2485 as

17     Defendant's next in order, or it may make more sense to just make this

18     one entire exhibit.  I don't know what works best for the Chamber or for

19     the Registry.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It looks like what is best for the process is for

21     them to be made one big exhibit, part of 2485.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  Could we please have P201 up as the

23     next document I'd like to discuss with you, sir.

24             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Can we have the tab number,

25     Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 8013

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  This is Prosecution tab, this is Resolution 752,

 2     and I'll get it for you in second.  I believe, if I'm not mistaken, it's

 3     tab number 6 in the first Prosecution binder.  In the 1992 -- in the 1992

 4     Prosecution binder.

 5        Q.   And if I could direct you to paragraph 4 of that document.

 6        A.   Are we speaking of a UN resolution?

 7        Q.   We are.  We are speaking of Resolution --

 8        A.   Resolution 752?

 9        Q.   Correct.

10        A.   Okay.  Yes, I have that.

11        Q.   Excellent.  As I understand your testimony, it is your position

12     that at the time the JNA withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was

13     incumbent upon them to do one of two things under this resolution;

14     correct?

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   And it's your position that the resolution required that they

17     either turn the arms over to the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina as one

18     solution; correct?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Or they deliver the arms that were to be left, if at all, to the

21     international community; true?

22        A.   That's correct.  I would say there's obviously a third element

23     here which is to actually take the weapons out of the country along with

24     the troops.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I wanted to clarify that because I had not heard you

Page 8014

 1     give that particular response when you were testifying on direct with

 2     regard to this matter.  That there was a third potential opportunity.

 3     Now, the thing that you are -- if I understand, the matter that you were

 4     objecting to was the JNA leaving the territory.  By any chance could you

 5     tell us when that was, when the JNA actually left?

 6        A.   Well, as I think you know my testimony, I do not believe that

 7     they left.

 8        Q.   Okay.  With regard --

 9        A.   I believe --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  This is impossible to work

11     with.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:

13        Q.   Your opinion is that all that happened was there was a transfer

14     -- I'm sorry, I'm being told I need to do something.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith, the interpreters are

16     complaining that it's --

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Interpreter, what is impossible to work with?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  There was too much noise for us to hear either

20     the witness or Mr. Guy-Smith.  Thank you.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I'm speaking at this point, can all the

22     interpreters hear me?  Yes?  I'm okay all the way around?  Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I seem to hear you directly, Mr. Guy-Smith, and

24     not via the earphones.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Let me try here.  Do you hear me through your

Page 8015

 1     earphones, or do you hear me directly, Your Honour?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ask again.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Do you hear me here, or do you hear me directly?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Doesn't seem to be a difference.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  Well, I don't know exactly whether or not

 6     the matter is being recorded or not recorded.  I don't know how to best

 7     to proceed, because I don't know what the technical issues are as to

 8     whether or not -- if everybody can hear me, and Mr. Sacirbey can hear me,

 9     I am assuming we have at least a written record of these proceedings.  I

10     don't know whether we have an oral record of these proceedings.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe proceed, and if everybody else hears you,

12     then I'll see how to go through.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:

14        Q.   If I understand your testimony correctly, one, you believe that

15     there was never a withdrawal of the JNA; correct?

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   Could you tell us if you have any awareness of the killing of the

18     young soldiers leaving the Marshal Tito Barracks in June of 1992 --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt my friend's

21     question, but certainly at this point what we have heard of it, I will be

22     having a relevance objection to.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, there is testimony -- well, I'll wait.

24     We've previously heard testimony from at least one witness with regard to

25     the withdrawal of the JNA at or about June 5th, it may been before

Page 8016

 1     Ms. Bolton's entry into the case, in which there was, and I use the word

 2     killing as opposed to massacre, which is the word that had been used

 3     previously.  The massacre of some young soldiers who were leaving the

 4     Marshal Tito Barracks pursuant to the agreement that the JNA was to

 5     withdraw from the region.  And my question is whether or not he has any

 6     awareness of that particular matter and whether or not that would impact

 7     at all with regard to his opinion concerning the withdrawal of the JNA.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  I don't know what evidence my friend is referring

10     to.  It may have predated my time.  I, again, am not clear on what the

11     relevance is to -- of the massacre of the young soldiers to these

12     proceedings.  I am in Your Honours' hands.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you don't make any objection then Your Honour

14     doesn't have you in his hands.

15             MS. BOLTON:  I continue to object on the basis of relevancy,

16     Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:

19        Q.   Do you have my question in mind, Mr. Sacirbey?

20        A.   Yes, I do.  I believe you mentioned a date and you mentioned the

21     phrase massacre.  I am generally aware of the events.  I am not sure that

22     either the date or the reference to massacre is accurate.

23        Q.   Well, I had initially --

24        A.   Mr. Guy-Smith, that's been -- I'm --

25        Q.   I had initially used the word -- excuse me, Mr. Sacirbey.

Page 8017

 1        A.   I just want to also highlight to the Court --

 2        Q.   Excuse me Mr. Sacirbey.  There's no question pending.  I

 3     initially used the word killing, and my question is are you, based upon

 4     the answer you've just given, aware of an incident involving young JNA

 5     soldiers departing from the Marshal Tito Barracks in the month of June as

 6     a result of the agreement that the JNA would withdraw from the area and

 7     during the time that they withdrew they were killed?  Yes or no?

 8        A.   I am aware -- I am aware of JNA units withdrawing from the

 9     Marshal Tito Barracks in Sarajevo.  Again I question the time-frame that

10     you are highlighting here.

11        Q.   And by that you question the month of June?

12        A.   I believe so.  And I'm also -- I'm influenced by recent events

13     where Serbia has raised its own potential prosecution of individuals

14     involved with that particular incident.  So I'm obviously influenced by

15     the discussion of that in the media.

16        Q.   Okay.  And that is a recent influence that you have then?

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   Okay.

19        A.   That's been ongoing for about a month, month and a half now.

20        Q.   Now, you've answered most of my question, but you have not

21     answered the issue of whether or not you were aware of these young

22     soldiers being killed or not in the process of withdrawing.

23        A.   First of all you characterise young soldiers, I am aware that in

24     fact there were battles involved; that is correct.

25        Q.   So it's your testimony as you sit here that there were battles

Page 8018

 1     that occurred during the time that these soldiers were withdrawing from

 2     the Marshal Tito Barracks; right?

 3        A.   It is my testimony that when they were leaving Sarajevo, this

 4     occurred; that is correct.

 5        Q.   Not my question, sir.  You used the word "battles."  Because you

 6     used the word battles, we need to have an understanding about that.  Is

 7     it your testimony that there were battles that occurred during the time

 8     that these soldiers were withdrawing from the Marshal Tito Barracks, yes

 9     or no?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             I'm asking you to now go back into your memory as opposed to

13     dealing with those things that may have influenced you in the recent

14     press.  Do you recall that there was an agreement between the president

15     of Bosnia and Panic, and that would have been I believe Zivota Panic

16     concerning the withdrawal of JNA troops from Sarajevo and specifically

17     from the Marshal Tito Barracks?

18        A.   I am aware of that, yes.

19        Q.   And is it your testimony that subsequent to this agreement whilst

20     these troops were withdrawing, that's when these battles occurred?

21        A.   I'm not exactly sure of the time-frame, but I knew in fact that

22     there was fighting involved.

23        Q.   Well, when you say you knew there was fighting involved, are you

24     attributing the battles to this particular incident, Mr. Sacirbey?

25        A.   Yes, I am.  And most of my knowledge was obtained over subsequent

Page 8019

 1     time-frame.

 2        Q.   When you say most of your knowledge was obtained over subsequent

 3     time-frame, from whence did you obtain that knowledge?  Was it obtained

 4     from your president, from your military commanders or from the press?

 5        A.   Actually, much of it was also obtained from UN officials.

 6        Q.   With regard to your president, did you obtain the information

 7     from your president with regard to the issue of these battles that you

 8     have alleged occurred?

 9        A.   A limited -- limited.

10        Q.   When you say limited, what do you mean by that, sir?

11        A.   My most extensive knowledge of this issue came up during a visit

12     to Zagreb, Croatia, in the spring of 1993, when I was supposed to go to

13     Srebrenica with the UN delegation.  I spoke with then the UN military and

14     the UN head civilian commander and this matter came up.

15        Q.   When you say you spoke with the UN military and UN civil head

16     commander, who did you speak with?

17        A.   General Nambiar in part, and also the civilian commander and his

18     name always escapes me, but he was replaced by Mr. Akashi subsequent to

19     that time-frame.

20        Q.   Is it my understanding it's your testimony that you received the

21     information from these two individuals with regard to the issue of their

22     being battles that occurred at the time that these soldiers were

23     withdrawing pursuant to the agreement that existed between your president

24     and Zivota Panic?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 8020

 1        Q.   We haven't covered the issue of your military.  Did you receive

 2     any information from your military with regard to that same issue?

 3        A.   No, I did not.

 4        Q.   And with regard to the press.  Did you receive information from

 5     the press which characterised this situation?  And by that I'm talking

 6     about the same withdrawal as being a battle?

 7        A.   Most likely I did.  But my greatest source of information and

 8     influence is on the basis of those conversations in Zagreb in the spring

 9     of 1993.

10        Q.   How many conversations did you have?

11        A.   It was at least one conversation, and I remember it was a

12     UN headquarters.  It probably lasted for half an hour to an hour because

13     it related to other events around that time-frame.

14        Q.   With regard to the issue concerning the weapons that were left

15     behind, you were aware of the fact that at that time there was a

16     contention that those weapons did not belong to Bosnia-Herzegovina as

17     you've asserted; correct?

18        A.   That is correct.  Mr. Guy-Smith, let me correct the Court, I do

19     remember that gentleman's name, it was Cedric Thornberry, who was the

20     chief UN civilian commander, the other individual I had those

21     conversations with.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey, we have frozen video now.

23             While we are waiting, for your information, Ms. Bolton, I'm going

24     to be going to the articles that I had sent over there which had come

25     from the green light report which had heretofore been illegible in the --

Page 8021

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Will they be tabbed?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, there are a series of them, but most of

 3     them are going to be from, I believe it's going to be tab 82.  There will

 4     be a series of them, and there will be another place where they are, I'll

 5     get them to you as we go along.  I can assure you they are all in

 6     e-court.  The first one will be, for purposes of everybody's edification,

 7     65 ter 4564, which is an article dated August 23rd, 1992.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we connected?

 9             Can you hear us, Mr. Sacirbey?

10             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I can, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Mr. Guy-Smith.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Can you hear me, Mr. Sacirbey?  Am I good with everybody?

15        A.   Yes, I can.

16        Q.   Yes, I'm good?  Thank you.

17             You might recall that we, the last time we met, we were

18     discussing a series of newspaper articles which you candidly said, and I

19     understand why you could not read, they were illegible, they were part of

20     the Iran green light report.  Do you recall that?

21        A.   I believe I recall that.

22        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to at this point in time go through a number of

23     those articles with you.  The first one is 65 ter 4564.  I'm sorry,

24     that's 1D03 65 ter 4564.  I said it backwards I think.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It doesn't have a P number?

Page 8022

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It does not have a P number, no.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, the screen is frozen again.  We can

 3     hear you just fine, but the screen is frozen.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, it looks like we are going to have to take a

 5     break and see if the technicians can help us because we just can't go on

 6     like that.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a short break.  When we are

 9     reconnected, you will be called.  Thank you.

10                           --- Break taken at 2.55 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 3.18 p.m.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Testing, testing, Mr. Sacirbey, can you hear us?

13             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I can, thank you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             Mr. Guy-Smith.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you so much.  If we could have 1D03-4564

17     available on screen and also available to Mr. Sacirbey, which I believe

18     is the first document in the packet that was delivered sometime a week or

19     so ago.

20        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, you've discussed with us that you read a number of

21     news periodicals.  I take it one of the news periodicals you read, not

22     only privately but also in your capacity as the ambassador for

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina was the "New York Times," was it not?

24        A.   Yes, it was.

25        Q.   And this is one of the articles that was contained in the

Page 8023

 1     document that we were discussing a couple of weeks ago, that being the

 2     Senate subcommittee report concerning various arms being moved into,

 3     among other places, Bosnia-Herzegovina, called the Iran green light

 4     report.  With regard to the first document in front of you, dated August

 5     23rd, 1992, I'd like to know first of all whether or not you are familiar

 6     with this newspaper article.

 7        A.   Yes, I am.

 8        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to the second page of the

 9     article in which there is the following discussion.  It says "Government

10     Admits Effort.  Ejup Ganic vice-president of Bosnia and Herzegovina

11     acknowledged in an interview that his government is trying to raise money

12     in the Middle East for weapons purchases."  Do you have that in front in

13     front of you?

14        A.   Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm there.

15        Q.   With regard to the statement made, is that something that was

16     discussed while you were at the United Nations building with some of your

17     colleagues concerning the violation of Resolution 713?

18        A.   Again, you are speaking of violation of Resolution 713.  We

19     certainly did discuss assistance to provide the necessary resources for

20     the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to defends itself.

21        Q.   Okay.  I understand the euphemism you are using here, sir.  What

22     I'm asking you is really very simple.  I appreciate the fact that as far

23     as you were concerned, 713 did not apply to Bosnia-Herzegovina.  You've

24     made that quite clear.  What I'm now driving at and trying to understand

25     is whether or not there was a discussion with other members at the you

Page 8024

 1     United Nations concerning the fact that the purchase of weapons would be

 2     on its face a violation of Resolution 713, which would have been --

 3     something would have been a concern to you as the ambassador of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina because you would have had to take a position on this

 5     issue.  So my question is with regard to the information contained in

 6     this article, is that something that you discussed with your colleagues

 7     at the United Nations, irrespective of your position with regard to

 8     whether or not you had the right to purchase weapons or not?

 9        A.   To be very accurate, the issue of the purchase of weapons did not

10     come up.  The issue of weapons or other necessary resources coming in to

11     defend Bosnia did come up.

12        Q.   If you could turn to the bottom of that page where it says:

13             "Help from Arab Relief Groups."

14             "There are also persistent rumours that arms dealers from the

15     Middle East are at work on behalf of Bosnia and Herzegovina, out-gunned

16     military forces.  General Armin Pohara?"

17             Do you know who that is, sir?

18        A.   I know the name.

19        Q.   He is not one of the individuals that you had contact with in

20     terms of what was going on, on the ground during your tenure as

21     ambassador; is that correct?

22        A.   Not that I recall.

23        Q.   Okay.  "... confirmed that 180 mujahedeen from the Middle East

24     have joined the Bosnian ranks."

25             Do I take it that it was your position that not only were you

Page 8025

 1     entitled to purchase arms in order to defends yourself, but you also were

 2     entitled to have foreign nationals, by that I mean individuals from

 3     outside of your country, come into your country in your defence?

 4        A.   The issue of foreign fighters did come up.  And one can classify

 5     them into two categories.  One is mercenaries, the other one would be

 6     so-called volunteers.

 7        Q.   And by volunteers you mean --

 8        A.   Frankly, we took the view at the UN mission --

 9        Q.   Go ahead.

10        A.   We took the view at the UN mission that any foreign forces coming

11     to Bosnia were not welcome.  And we frankly discouraged them at least

12     from the UN mission.  As to their legality, I never took a position on

13     that point.

14        Q.   With regard to -- with regard to the information that's contained

15     in this particular article, one with which you are familiar, did you have

16     conversation with your president or any military leaders back at home

17     concerning the fact that you were having foreign nationals fighting for

18     you?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   Okay.

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   Was that also a conversation that you had with some of your

23     colleagues at the United Nations?

24        A.   Yes, it was.

25        Q.   Is this also a matter that you had some concern about, and by

Page 8026

 1     concern I mean when you had mentioned to us the other day that there was,

 2     I believe, leakage in your government, that this kind of information is

 3     the kind of information that would be of --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour, again, sorry, I'm not getting

 6     any sound.  Oops.  Sorry to interrupt, again I'm not seeing the relevance

 7     of this line of question to any of the issues that were raised during

 8     either examination-in-chief, Your Honour, or the issues that are before

 9     this Tribunal in terms of the Defence.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Notice.  Common discussion between all that were

12     going -- common discussion between all during the period of time that the

13     issues that are germane to these proceedings were being discussed, the

14     resolutions, the violations of the resolutions, how they were being

15     interpreted, and general understanding of what information was available

16     upon which all --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Notice to?

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Notice to who?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  To our client.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Overruled.

23             Mr. Guy-Smith.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, could the Chamber kindly informed me as to

25     when we are going to stop because I'm happy to go as long as I can.

Page 8027

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see.  Can we just -- I'm not quite sure how much

 2     longer we can still go on the tape, but may I suggest that you go on,

 3     let's --

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Absolutely until somebody tells me to stop, very

 5     good.

 6        Q.   Do you have my last question in mind with regard to your concern

 7     about leakage within the government?

 8        A.   Yes, I do, and actually, this is not a point of concern that I

 9     had regarding leakage.

10        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we please now have 1D03-4569.  Which would

12     be, I believe, the next document.  Once again this is a "New York Times"

13     article, dated September 10th, 1992Iran said to sends arms to

14     Bosnians.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, what should the fate of ID --

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Can I please have that admitted into evidence as

17     Defendant's next in order, please, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  ID03-4564 is admitted into evidence.  May

19     it please be given an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given

21     Exhibit D136.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:

24        Q.   Have you had a chance to look at the document, sir, the article?

25        A.   Yes, I have.  Yes, I have.

Page 8028

 1        Q.   Good.  First of all, I'd like to understand something if I could.

 2     Is it your position that arms being sent to Bosnia-Herzegovina could be

 3     sent in any fashion whatsoever including as relief for humanitarian aid,

 4     and that was legitimate?

 5        A.   Certainly if something was labelled as a humanitarian mission,

 6     then we owed it, I think, to the institution that was providing the

 7     humanitarian assistance to make sure that the humanitarian assistance did

 8     in fact come through and not something else.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So then I take it that by the answer you've given, you

10     would say that if in fact you -- by you I'm saying Bosnia-Herzegovina

11     were receiving arms under another guise, that that would be illegitimate;

12     correct?

13        A.   Certainly one of the concerns that I had regarding the arms

14     embargo is that it could in fact corrupt a whole system of delivery.

15        Q.   Well, as a matter of fact you know that it did corrupt the whole

16     system of delivery.  And let's take a look at this article.

17        A.   I've heard --

18        Q.   In the first document:

19             "'Evidence of military support by an Islamic country to the

20     Muslim-dominated government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatian officials

21     have intercepted a planeload of Iranian arms and personnel,' western

22     officials said today."

23             Going to the second paragraph:

24             "Its ostensible mission was to deliver relief supplies for

25     overland delivery to Bosnia and Herzegovina.  But when the plane was

Page 8029

 1     inspected, Croatian officials discovered 4.000 guns, more than a million

 2     rounds of ammunition, and 20 to 40 Iranians huddled in the back."

 3             You would agree with me, sir, would you not, that those items are

 4     not humanitarian or relief aid?

 5        A.   If the story is accurate, you are correct.

 6        Q.   Is this a story that you were aware of?

 7        A.   I was aware of the story, but I must say that I was never aware

 8     of any Iranians that were fighting on the side of the government.

 9        Q.   Well, were you aware of some 20 to 40 Iranians huddled in the

10     back of a plane trying to sneak into Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   Certainly am not on that occasion.

12        Q.   Continuing with the article:

13             "'While there have been unconfirmed reports that Islamic

14     countries have been providing military aid to Bosnian Muslims, the

15     seizure of the Iranian shipment represents the first tangible evidence,'

16     Bush Administration officials say."

17             You were discussing this issue of the arms embargo with

18     Bush Administration officials, were you not?

19        A.   Yes, I was.

20        Q.   You, as a matter of fact, discussed this very incident with him,

21     did you not?

22        A.   Quite possibly, but I don't recall the discussion if that's what

23     you are referring to.

24        Q.   Are you telling us that this particular discussion escapes your

25     memory at this time?

Page 8030

 1        A.   I don't recollect it specifically.  One did take place.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I please have this moved into evidence

 3     Defendant's next in order.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 5     number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given

 7     Exhibit D137.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  1B03-4610 [sic], I believe this document -- this

10     is a publication from the "Los Angeles Times."

11        Q.   Do you have that document in front of you, Mr. Sacirbey?

12             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Can we have the tab number,

13     Mr. Guy-Smith.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Surely.  It's tab number 84.  Sorry,

15     Mr. Registrar.  That would be in the new batch.

16             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We've got it.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excellent.

18             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I have the document.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:

20        Q.   Is this a document that you are familiar with, this particular

21     publication, this particular article, I should say?

22        A.   I'm not sure I'm familiar with the article, although of course

23     I'm familiar with the publication and the subject matter.

24        Q.   With regard to the subject matter, referring your attention to

25     the second paragraph which says:

Page 8031

 1             "The shipment was one of the most brazen efforts yet to

 2     circumvent a year old UN arms embargo in the region.  It has intensified

 3     concern that Iran and other nations could fuel an already explosive civil

 4     war by giving new firepower to the Bosnian Muslims who are battling

 5     Serbian forces for control of the former Yugoslav republic."

 6             Now, is that a matter that was discussed between you and your

 7     colleagues at the United Nations?  And by that I'm talking about the

 8     particular concern here, the shipment could fuel an already explosive

 9     civil war?

10        A.   Certainly again the issue of weapons shipment was discussed.

11        Q.   And you were told, were you not, as it says, for example, in this

12     article, going down three paragraphs:

13             "'We don't need more weapons in Bosnia,' one US official said.

14     'More arms are not going to help reduce the level of tension and violence

15     and bloodshed.'"

16             You were told that, were you not, by concerned individuals and

17     your colleagues at the United Nations?

18        A.   Yes, certainly something of a similar sentiment.

19        Q.   And when you say "certainly something of a similar sentiment," I

20     take it what you mean --

21        A.   It's whole issue --

22        Q.   I take it what you mean by that --

23        A.   Please go ahead.

24        Q.   I take it what you mean by that is that you were told in no

25     uncertain terms that more weapons would exacerbate the situation and that

Page 8032

 1     your decision, and by that I mean Bosnia-Herzegovina's decision, to

 2     obtain weapons outside of the embargo was inappropriate and ill-advised?

 3        A.   The words inappropriate and ill-advised depends on whose

 4     perspective you were looking at.  Bosnia was already badly out-gunned,

 5     and in fact much of its population was already on the run, and

 6     cosmopolitan areas were under siege.

 7        Q.   So your position was being a member state of the United Nations

 8     at that point in time that you would interpret 713 in a manner that you

 9     deemed most appropriate for what you believed to be the benefit of your

10     country; correct?

11        A.   We were under aggression; there was genocide; and there were

12     already weapons in Bosnia.

13        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey, please listen to my

14     question.

15             Your position was being a member state of the United Nations at

16     that point in time that you would interpret 713 in a manner that you

17     deemed most appropriate for what you believed to be the benefit of your

18     country; correct?

19        A.   What we believed most legal and consistent with our obligation,

20     yes.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I please have that as Defendant's next in

22     order.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Its admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

24     number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

Page 8033

 1     Exhibit D138.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 5        Q.   Now, with regard to the issue of relief, and by that I mean

 6     relief supplies being in these shipments, what was actually going on, and

 7     you were aware of the fact that it was going on, is that arms were being

 8     sent to your country under the guise of humanitarian aid, were they not?

 9        A.   Not that I am aware of.  Not at least of specific situations.

10        Q.   And I take it by that, that you have difficulty, then, with the

11     accuracy of the article that we just discussed?

12        A.   We are talking about the "Los Angeles Times" article?

13        Q.   That's correct.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

16             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, I thought the question to the witness was

17     about his knowledge.  And now my friend has asked him a question about

18     the accuracy of an article.  I don't think the witness is in a position

19     to comment on the accuracy of the article.  He'd had no firsthand

20     knowledge.  He has told us he hadn't read the article until today.  I

21     just don't think it's appropriate for him to be commending on whether the

22     article is or isn't --

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Not a problem, I'll withdraw the question.  I can

24     do this in a entirely different way and would be more than happy to.

25     Could we have 1D03 -- I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I'm just trying to move as

Page 8034

 1     quick as I can because I'm worried about breakdown.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we have 1D03-4574.  Which I believe,

 4     Mr. Registrar, should be the third document in the first package.  This

 5     is an article from the "Washington Times."

 6             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 8        Q.   Is this one of the articles that you were reading during the

 9     period of time?

10        A.   Reading the first few lines, I'm at least aware of some of the

11     contents of this, that's correct.

12        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the second paragraph, it says:

13             "'We'd seen various aid shipments go in independent of the UN and

14     had raised our concerns with the Croatian government and said you might

15     want to check these things out,' said a senior US official who asked not

16     to be identified."

17             Now, with regard to the issue of various aid shipments, were you

18     aware of the fact that your country was receiving, and I use the term

19     euphemistically, various aid shipments which in fact turned out to be

20     arms in violation of Resolution 713?

21        A.   If that was the case, at best I know only as isolated incidents.

22     My biggest concern, frankly, at that time was to what extent

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina controlled at borders.  And we were concerned, at

24     least I was concerned, about in fact what could be coming through those

25     borders in the form of either illegitimate supplies or men.

Page 8035

 1        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the -- with regard to the answer you've

 2     just given, it says, and I want to make sure we are on the same page, I

 3     was concerned about in fact what could be coming in through those borders

 4     in the form of either, is it illegitimate supplies, or is it -- thank

 5     you.

 6        A.   That's correct.  That's the term I used.

 7        Q.   Fine.  The transcript said something slightly different.  I just

 8     wanted to double-check.

 9             Now with regard to your concern about there being illegitimate

10     supplies, I take it this is something that you voiced to your president

11     or other members of your government while you were in New York, working

12     on behalf of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

13        A.   That's correct, we would have discussions on these issues.

14        Q.   And with regard to the diplomatic dance you were going through at

15     the time you had to deal with the reality on the ground as well as make

16     sure that you kept a certain level of diplomatic, shall I say, validity

17     while you were at the United Nations; correct?

18        A.   I wouldn't say that's correct.  My focus was on two things.

19     First of all, in any way undermining the flow of humanitarian supplies

20     which I certainly perceived as being essential, so any sort of corruption

21     of that system would be very troubling.  And certainly, number 2, I would

22     be concerned about the flow of men into the country, which would very

23     much undermine what I understood to be Bosnian's ideological goal in

24     terms of preserving a secular multi-ethnic state.

25        Q.   I take it that what you did because of those concerns when you

Page 8036

 1     received the information like the information we are discussing here

 2     because of the potential impact it would have, the negative impact it

 3     would have, that you wrote to your government and said, Stop this from

 4     happening.  Do not let this occur.  Right?

 5        A.   I certainly had those types of discussions with my government;

 6     that is correct.

 7        Q.   Did you write to them about it?  Did you memorialize it?

 8        A.   Certainly the first point would be try to verify if there was any

 9     such information.

10        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, my question to you is, Did you memorialise these

11     concerns that you had discussions about in the same fashion that you've

12     memorialised so many other things?

13        A.   If I did memorialise it, I don't have the specific recollection

14     of that document.

15        Q.   Curious.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we please have --

17             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, if my friend could refrain from making

18     inappropriate sarcastic remarks on the record, I would appreciate it.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do apologise.  Tab 41, please, 1D03-0792.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you want to do with this one first?

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I have it moved into evidence.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

23     number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given

25     Exhibit D139.  Thank you.

Page 8037

 1             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I'm reviewing that document.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 3        Q.   Good.  Do you recognise this document?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   This is a letter that you wrote on 18th of May, 1993; correct?

 6        A.   It actually reflects a letter from President Izetbegovic, yes.

 7     It introduces it.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  This is a letter that was distributed; correct?  In

 9     the general distribution?

10        A.   That is --

11        Q.   This is a letter --

12        A.   Yes, I believe it has been.

13        Q.   And this is a letter that indicates that the current mandate --

14     and I'm going to the second full paragraph.  It says:

15             "We believe that the current mandate of the United Nations forces

16     in our republic is inadequate."

17             Correct?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   And in the first paragraph, once again, there's a discussion

20     about voiding the arms embargo; correct?

21        A.   That is correct.

22        Q.   Now, with regard to the mandate that your president is indicating

23     is inadequate, are you referring to the mandate coupled with the rules of

24     engagement that existed at that time for self-defence by UNPROFOR forces?

25        A.   The view was that in fact there needed to be a clear mandate to

Page 8038

 1     confront attacks upon the republic and, of course, its citizens and

 2     territory.

 3        Q.   And when you say there needed to be a clear mandate, it was your

 4     position, was it not, that UNPROFOR at that time should be acting in a,

 5     what I would call, a proactive fashion as opposed to a peacekeeping

 6     defensive fashion; correct?

 7        A.   If I may, I think the word you would want to say peacemaking

 8     versus peacekeeping.  There was no peace to keep at that time.

 9        Q.   Well, we certainly agree about that.

10        A.   So obviously you need to make the peace to keep it.

11        Q.   Okay.  And it was your position that what should occur - when I

12     say your, I'm talking about your position as the ambassador for

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina - is that UNPROFOR should engage in active military

14     activity in order to make peace; right?

15        A.   Again, depending on the environment.  If we are talking about

16     delivery of humanitarian assistance, they should ensure that is

17     delivered.  If we are talking about attacks upon the country and

18     particularly the population, then in fact those attacks could be --

19     should be confronted.  We are now talking about that critical phase in

20     time when the safe areas resolution was being adopted.

21        Q.   And are you limiting your answers to those two areas as being

22     what your position was concerning what the UNPROFOR mandate should have

23     been?

24        A.   With all sincerity, that's a difficult qualification.  I think

25     what we are saying is there is no peace to keep.  Before there can be a

Page 8039

 1     peace to keep, you must make sure that in fact there is a peace, and of

 2     course at the same time you must make sure that the civilian population,

 3     the population as a whole is in fact adequately fed and taken care of and

 4     protected from attack.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could that be marked as Defendant's next in

 7     order.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So marked.  May it please be given a number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

10     Exhibit D140.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could please have tab 47, Mr. Registrar.

13     That's 1D03-0806.

14             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that in front of me.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:

16        Q.   UNPROFOR was comprised of a number of different member states

17     including Russia; correct?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   This letter is a letter in which you are indicating, and by that

20     I mean your president is indicating that you do not approve of the

21     arrival of additional Russian troops to Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

22        A.   Under the conditions that existed, that's correct.

23        Q.   Well, the conditions that existed was apparently there was, as I

24     understand the letter, looking at the first paragraph, there was some

25     disapproval of the manner in which the Russian soldiers behaved on their

Page 8040

 1     arrival to Sarajevo which raised discontent among the Sarajevo citizens

 2     and harmed the reputation of the United States mission; right?

 3        A.   I believe United Nations mission you were referring to, not

 4     United States, correct?

 5        Q.   Yes, thank you so much.

 6        A.   That is correct.

 7        Q.   Now, in this letter, you are attributing -- I am sorry, by that I

 8     mean President Izetbegovic is attributing behaviours to the Russian

 9     UNPROFOR troops that they were in support to the aggressor; right?

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   And that would -- the aggressor being the troops of

12     General Mladic; right?

13        A.   That is correct.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I have this marked as Defendant's next in

15     order, please.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's so marked.  May it please be given an exhibit

17     number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

19     Exhibit D141.  Thank you.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we please have tab number 48.  1D03-0808.

21             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I'm familiar with the letter.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:

23        Q.   This is a letter that you penned; correct?  That is not a letter

24     that comes from your president; right?

25        A.   The information I believe did come from several sources,

Page 8041

 1     including Sarajevo, but that is correct.

 2        Q.   And in this letter you are, if I'm not mistaken, looking at the

 3     very -- the second to last paragraph before you asked for it to be

 4     circulated:

 5             "It appears this is arrangement may be rescinded under pressure,

 6     nonetheless I'm saddened to inform you that the government of the

 7     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina by this act and other more recent

 8     behaviour of certain United Nations related personnel..."

 9             And I take it there so we're clear you are referring to Mr.

10     Akashi; correct?

11        A.   To be very honest with you, I'm not sure who the reference to is.

12        Q.   We'll get to that then.

13        A.   I just don't know.

14        Q.   We'll get to that; it's fine.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where are you reading?

16             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I do remember the incident, that's

17     correct.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, sorry, Your Honour, again I'm not clear on the

20     relevance of this document to my friend's line of questioning,

21     particularly what particular individuals Bosnia-Herzegovina had an issue

22     with or, for example, on the last document, the behaviour of Russian

23     peacekeepers.  Again I don't see how either of those issues relate to

24     live issues in these proceedings.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm still trying to find out where you were

Page 8042

 1     reading, Mr. Guy-Smith.  Maybe if I can see that, I can see whether

 2     there's any relevance or not.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.  In order for you ultimately to make an

 4     assessment with regard to our client's mens rea, you are going to be

 5     looking at a series of documents and publications that all went into

 6     various determinations that were made.  And the totality of the picture

 7     is something that I believe the Chamber is going to need in order to

 8     determine what was done, why things were done, why things were not done,

 9     and what the positions were.  And clearly, clearly, the kinds of

10     diplomatic give-and-take that was occurring at the United Nations is

11     something that is of import to your ultimate determination.

12             We've heard again and again and again and again about the

13     resolutions that were passed and the about the statements that were made

14     by various members of either the General Assembly or the Security Council

15     with regard to various issues.  This is as critical and as much a part of

16     what we are talking about as that is.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, I was asking you where you were

18     reading from this document so that I can --

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry.  It appears, I'm looking at the second

20     to last paragraph.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which starts with "it appears this ..."

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  "It appears that this arrangement may be

23     rescinded under pressure," yes.  And it goes on which is -- I had

24     indicated that I thought it could be Mr. Akashi, but it goes on:

25             "The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has lost all confidence in

Page 8043

 1     these individual's actions to promote the United Nations mandate and an

 2     overall peace settlement in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             Yes, Madam Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  If I could respond to my friends's comments.  Again

 6     I don't see any link in terms of the mens rea with this document.  The

 7     issue of the mens rea is in part depending on whether on 7-1 or 7-3 would

 8     be, for example, did he have notice of the fact that there were

 9     allegations of crimes on the part of the Bosnian Serb army?  That has

10     nothing to do with the contents of this letter, the contents of the

11     previous letter.  So any relationship, as far as I can see, the mens rea

12     is non-existent.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What I understand Mr. Guy-Smith to be saying is

14     that what his client did he did in response to some of the things that

15     are being said here, and that therefore he wants the mens rea of his

16     client to be looked at against the background of what had come to his

17     knowledge about the activities of the opposite number in the war zone.

18             Now, that's how I understand him.  Am I misunderstanding you,

19     sir?

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You are not, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For that reason, then we will not allow your

22     objection.  I'm sorry, Madam Bolton.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:

24        Q.   With regard to the statement that is made there, when you

25     indicate that you have lost all confidence in these individuals' actions,

Page 8044

 1     was that a matter that was discussed, first of all, amongst your

 2     colleagues at the United Nations?

 3        A.   In fact, there was an assault ongoing upon Gorazde and weapons

 4     were being moved from Sarajevo in furtherance of that assault, and we saw

 5     this as a direct help to the Serbian forces by allowing them to take

 6     weapons out of the exclusion zone in Sarajevo and move them upon an

 7     assault on another exclusion zone which was the safe area of Gorazde.

 8        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey, once again I'd appreciate if you

 9     answer my question.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before he does so, can I just get clarity,

11     Mr. Guy-Smith.  When you say discussed with your colleagues, who do you

12     mean?  His office mates in the Bosnia-Herzegovina mission or in the

13     United Nations?

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I've been using that as form for in the

15     United Nations, Your Honour.  And I'll be clearer.  And I understand your

16     question; I'll be clearer.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But I'll tell you now what I find a little putting

18     -- it's like you are putting the cart before the horse, because my

19     understanding of this letter is that he is tabling it before the

20     United Nations and saying, Let's discuss.  He didn't discuss it before he

21     wrote the letter.  He is asking it to be discussed.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not sure whether that's the case or not; I'm

23     trying to find that out.  You may well be right, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:

Page 8045

 1        Q.   Having His Honour's concern in mind, first of all, is this a

 2     letter in which you were requesting that the matter be discussed by

 3     members of the Security Council?

 4        A.   Yes, it was.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]... read that last

 6     paragraph, the one sentence.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.  And I'm referring -- would you like me to

 8     read that again?

 9        Q.   And I'm referring to:

10             "It appears this is arrangement may be rescinded under pressure,

11     nonetheless I'm saddened to inform you the government of the Republic of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina by this act and other more recent behaviour of certain

13     United Nations related personnel in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

14     has lost all confidence in these individuals' actions to promote the

15     United Nations mandate and an overall peace settlement in the Republic of

16     Bosnia and Herzegovina."

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was referring to the very last paragraph.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:

19        Q.   "May I ask for your kind assistance in circulating this letter as

20     a document of the Security Council."

21             And was that done, sir, to your knowledge?

22        A.   Yes, it was.

23        Q.   And as a result of that being done, was there a discussion with

24     regard to the concerns that you have raised in the second to last

25     paragraph?

Page 8046

 1        A.   That is correct, in the context of the elaboration I gave a

 2     couple of answers earlier.

 3        Q.   And with regard to --

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I have this as Defendant's next in order

 5     then.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 7     please be given an exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

 9     Exhibit D142.  Thank you.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:

11        Q.   And with regard to the issue contained in the second to last

12     paragraph of Exhibit D142, all confidence in these individuals' actions,

13     if we could please have tab 42.  That will be for you, which will be

14     1D03-0794.

15        A.   This is a letter of 6 May 1994?

16        Q.   That's correct.  That, I believe, would be the day after the

17     letter we were just discussing, which was the 5th of May.

18             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, if I could just beg my friend's indulgence.

19     The tab 42 in my binder that was provided doesn't match, and I'm just

20     trying to find this document.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It would be 1D03-0794.

22             MS. BOLTON:  I'll just try to follow it on e-court, thank you.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:

24        Q.   Have you had a chance to look at this document?

25        A.   Yes, I have.

Page 8047

 1        Q.   Now, first of all, this document was circulated; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, I believe it was.

 3        Q.   And in this document, once again, I'm going back to, for a

 4     moment, the individual that was being discussed on May 5th.  Looking at

 5     the letter, it says:

 6             "The Secretary-General special representative for the former

 7     Yugoslavia, Mr. Yasushi Akashi has destroyed all the confidence which our

 8     government has placed in him and which was the basis for any form of

 9     cooperation."

10             Correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   Goes on to say that:  "Methods have been witnessed," in

13     paragraph 2, "that can only be described as counter-productive in

14     handling the critical issues of war and peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

15             Right?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   The next paragraph goes directly to the matter that you were

18     raising concerning Gorazde in which you take the position that Mr. Akashi

19     acted in obvious contradiction with relevant Security Council resolutions

20     and decisions of NATO Council; right?

21        A.   That's correct, particularly Resolution 752 and 757 requiring

22     that Serbian heavy weapons either be placed in the hands of the

23     international community or be surrendered to the government of the

24     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  In this case, those weapons in fact

25     were allowed to move freely through the exclusion zone and in fact toward

Page 8048

 1     an attack on another safe area.

 2        Q.   What you are referring to is the Serbian tanks that were being

 3     complained about in the previous exhibit; correct?

 4        A.   That is correct.

 5        Q.   Now, with regard to the position that Bosnia-Herzegovina took as

 6     it related to the United Nations representative, you took the position

 7     that Mr. Akashi has practically placed himself on the side of the

 8     aggressor.

 9             "I am convinced that very few well-meaning individuals including

10     his closest associates can comprehend or explain Mr. Akashi's actions."

11             And then the letter concludes with the following paragraph which

12     is:

13             "I'm obliged to inform you that for the above-stated reasons, the

14     government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina can no longer

15     cooperate with Mr. Akashi."

16             Correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   Now, when you took this position that your government would no

19     longer cooperate with Mr. Akashi, I take it by that, that you felt you

20     were no longer bound by considerations that existed under the various

21     resolutions that we have been referring to; correct?

22        A.   That's not correct.

23        Q.   Independent of 713, of course.

24        A.   That's not correct.  That's actually not correct.  Let me make

25     sure I clarify why it's not correct.  Number one, I certainly did not

Page 8049

 1     take that position.  And second of all, I am not referring to -- this

 2     letter does not refer to UN Security Council resolutions.  But in fact as

 3     my explanation before, in fact we are concerned that Resolution 752 and

 4     757 is being violated by allowing weapons to be employed which were

 5     previously either in exclusion zones or under international control.

 6        Q.   Okay.  First of all, so we are clear, when you say I certainly

 7     did not take that position, are you saying that in your capacity as the

 8     ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina you did not take the position that is

 9     stated in this letter by your president, President Izetbegovic, is that

10     what you are telling us?

11        A.   No, I should be clear on that.  The point is, this is a view that

12     President Izetbegovic took, and of course that view at some point in time

13     did at least change to some degree.

14        Q.   Apart from that which is something we may well get to, what I'm

15     asking, the point in time that you circulated this letter, are you

16     telling us that you said, I'm circulating this letter on behalf of my

17     president, my colleagues on the United Nations Security Council, but this

18     is not my position?

19        A.   No, that's not true.  I'm saying that in fact this is a position

20     taken by President Izetbegovic, and it certainly did not reflect our

21     position on UN Security Council resolutions.

22        Q.   Well, with regard to the issue of -- with regard to the issue of

23     UN Security Council resolutions, you say on page 42 at line 1:

24             "And second of all, I'm not referring to -- this letter does not

25     refer to UN Security Council resolutions."

Page 8050

 1             Well, my question to you is this:  As a matter of fact, as I read

 2     the letter, it very specifically discusses UN Security Council

 3     resolutions in paragraph 3 where it says:

 4             "His conduct and decisions regarding the crisis around Gorazde

 5     are, in our opinion, in obvious contradiction with the relevant

 6     Security Council resolutions and decisions of the NATO Council."

 7             Right?

 8        A.   That is correct.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   I believe I've I'm consistent on that point, Mr. Guy-Smith, I am

11     not sure where you believe the inconsistency exists.

12        Q.   Well, you make assumptions, sir.  You make assumptions.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Can I have this admitted as the Defendant's next

14     in order.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an

16     exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given

18     Exhibit D143.  Thank you.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we please have 1D03-4576, which will be I

20     believe, Mr. Registrar, tab number 4 in the original packet of newspaper

21     articles.

22             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I'm reviewing the article, and

23     I'm familiar with its contents.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:

25        Q.   Okay.  When you say you are familiar with its contents, let's see

Page 8051

 1     if we can figure out in terms of time a couple of different issues.

 2     First of all, I take it we would agree that the article comes from the

 3     "Washington Post," and its date is the 13th of May, 1994?

 4        A.   That is correct.

 5        Q.   It's discussing an Iranian air force transport plane loaded with

 6     60 tonnes of explosives and other raw materials for weapons production,

 7     landed in Zagreb last week as part of a deal between Croatia and Bosnia

 8     to renew military cooperation against the Serbs, western and Bosnian

 9     sources say.

10             And I take it some of those Bosnian sources that asserted this in

11     this May 13th article are individuals who you spoke with or had

12     information from concerning this particular transport plane?

13        A.   I really don't know who those Bosnian sources are, but I'm

14     familiar again with the article.

15        Q.   The next thing is:

16             "The May 4th arrival," next paragraph, "of the Boeing 747 cargo

17     plane in Croatia's capital marked a conspicuous violation of the arms

18     embargo imposed by the UN Security Council on Yugoslavia and its former

19     republics in September 1991."

20             Right?

21        A.   Yes, I read that.

22        Q.   With regard to the information that is contained here, you were

23     aware of the fact that on May 4th, the day before the letter was written

24     on May 5th, that there had been a shipment of explosives and other raw

25     materials for weapons productions that were seized for the benefit of

Page 8052

 1     your country, were you not?

 2        A.   Are you referring to personally I was aware?

 3        Q.   I'm referring to whether or not you had that information, yes.

 4        A.   I don't recall.  I certainly don't recall getting that

 5     information for quite some time.

 6        Q.   To your knowledge -- to your knowledge was your president who

 7     wrote the letter on May 5th which you had circulated at the

 8     United Nations aware of this particular seizure?

 9        A.   I'm not aware of that.

10        Q.   With regard to --

11        A.   I really don't know.

12        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the next paragraph it says:

13             "Velayati," who I understand to be the Iranian foreign minister

14     "presented Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic with a check for

15     $1 million and a chit for 10.000 tons of diesel fuel.  Izetbegovic

16     responded with what appeared to be a thinly-veiled statement of thanks

17     for Iran's military support."

18             Now, these were matters which you were aware of, weren't you?

19        A.   I'm certainly aware of this article.  I don't remember having

20     discussed this particular event with President Izetbegovic, but I'm

21     certainly aware of the article.

22        Q.   Was this article and the information contained in this article a

23     matter of conversation with you and your colleagues at the United Nations

24     General Assembly or Security Council?

25        A.   I don't remember if the article was, but again, the subject

Page 8053

 1     matter was.

 2        Q.   And the subject matter being the fact that you were continuing to

 3     receive, by that I mean Bosnia-Herzegovina, was continuing to receive

 4     armaments that caused concern in the international community in relation

 5     to the prohibitions of Resolution 713; correct?

 6        A.   Without the characterisations, correct.

 7        Q.   And the characterisation being the prohibition of 713 which you

 8     dispute; right?

 9        A.   Yes, and the word "concern."

10        Q.   Concern.  You do not believe -- it's your testimony that the

11     shipment of armaments in May of 1994 was not of concern to the

12     international community?

13        A.   No, I'm saying first of all, as you've pointed out that it was

14     not a violation, and the word concern I think reflects only one element

15     of the discussion.

16        Q.   Now, sir -- so you and I disagree there.  I contend it was a

17     violation; I am acknowledging that you -- that it's your position that it

18     was not.  I have no doubt about what Resolution 713 says, as far as I'm

19     concerned, but I'm not the judge of that.

20        A.   That's correct, I think in both of our instances.

21        Q.   If we could turn to -- if we could turn to the third page of this

22     article.  I'm sorry, it would be the second page:

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could go back a page, Mr. Registrar.  Thank

24     you so much.  And go down to the bottom of the page.

25        Q.   At the bottom of the page, starting with the paragraph that says:

Page 8054

 1             "Cooperation was strengthened further in late April when Croatian

 2     prime minister Nikica Valentic led a delegation to Iran to take Iran and

 3     sign an agreement with Iran to facilitate the delivery of 'humanitarian

 4     and technical assistance to the Bosnian people.'"

 5             Were you --

 6        A.   I'm sorry.  I'm just trying to find the -- oh, I see it.  It's at

 7     the top of page 3 here.  I have that.

 8        Q.   Top of page 3 of the hard copy.  That's correct.

 9             Now, were you privy to this particular agreement to which you

10     were the beneficiary -- I'm sorry, to which your country was the

11     beneficiary, that's the delivery of "humanitarian and technical

12     assistance to the Bosnian people"?

13        A.   I was aware of it but I was not privy to the specific terms of

14     the agreement.

15        Q.   Okay, and with regard to technical assistance, I take it that

16     what we were referring to was armaments, are we not, among other things,

17     weapons?

18        A.   I did understand is as that.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             Now, looking at the very last paragraph, it says, and I quote:

21             "'This is the first weapons-related convoy from the highest level

22     since the war began,' said a Bosnian military source.  'It's a

23     groundbreaker.  We are hoping for more.'"

24        A.   Yes, I read that.

25        Q.   Now, is that particular quote attributed to somebody who you

Page 8055

 1     know, first of all?

 2        A.   Not that I am aware of.  I frankly don't know who it refers to.

 3        Q.   And with regard to the attitude that's contained therein, is

 4     that, is that in fact the position that you were taking at the

 5     United Nations concerning the importation of arms to Bosnia-Herzegovina

 6     in 1994, in May of 1994?  That you were hoping for more?

 7        A.   I'm certainly don't -- I'm not aware of who made this quote.  And

 8     second of all, I think I would be reading too much into that.

 9        Q.   Did you endorse that position in your capacities as ambassador

10     for Bosnia-Herzegovina in May of 1994, Mr. Sacirbey?

11        A.   To the extent that in fact additional assistance was needed for

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina to defend itself, its country, territory and

13     population, I would endorse it.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could that be marked as Defendant's next in

16     order.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

18     number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

20     Exhibit D144.  Thank you.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we have 1D03457 -- 4579.  Page 4, please.

22     Which I believe will be, Mr. Registrar, I believe that it's going to be

23     tab number 5 in the first packet of information.

24        Q.   Now, what I'm referring to is page number --

25             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] I'm --

Page 8056

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sorry I missed that.

 2             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] I'm just wondering, is it one of

 3     these articles -- or is it from the binder?

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It's one of the articles, Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 7        Q.   And I'm referring to page number 4 which starts off with "Iran

 8     said to violate embargo."  And I'm specifically referring to not the

 9     issue of Iran but the second paragraph which indicates:

10             "The Bosnian army also received" -- you are going to have to go

11     to page 4, Mr. Sacirbey, otherwise we won't be working with each other.

12        A.   Okay, I see it.

13        Q.   Okay.  The second paragraph which says:

14             "'The Bosnian army also received a large shipment of anti-tank

15     rockets delivered to Croatia by a Brazilian ship,' said the official,

16     speaking on condition of anonymity."

17             Were you aware of the fact that your country was receiving

18     anti-rockets sent through a Brazilian ship?

19        A.   To that specific question, no.

20        Q.   With regard to this particular newspaper article, which is also

21     dated the 13th of -- sorry, not also dated -- yes, it's also dated the

22     13th of May, are you familiar with any information concerning Brazilian

23     ships smuggling weapons for the benefit of your country?

24        A.   Not that I specifically recall.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 8057

 1        A.   I am, of course, aware of the need for anti-tank weapons.

 2        Q.   Different issue.  With regard to the next paragraph, which is:

 3             "Four convoys carried the rockets and explosives to central

 4     critical Bosnia in the last few days after Bosnian Croats took a

 5     one-third cut of arms, he said."  Is that something that you were privy

 6     to, a deal between your county and the Bosnian Croats, whereby you would

 7     split up the weapons that were being smuggled in so that you could use

 8     them for those purposes you deemed appropriate?

 9        A.   I am aware of agreements between the Republic of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia.  As to any other

11     arrangement, it may have fallen into the agreements with the Federation

12     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13        Q.   With regard to those agreements that you've just told us you were

14     aware of, those agreements were something that you made common knowledge

15     of to the international community of the United Nations, did you not?

16        A.   Are you speak of me personally?

17        Q.   I'm speaking about you in your capacity as ambassador for

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina, that your country made it known that you and Croatia

19     were involved in a deal whereby you would split up arms that is would

20     come into your country, you would get some of them and Croatia would get

21     some of them.

22        A.   I don't believe I did that personally, although I'm quite certain

23     that that information was available.

24        Q.   Well, when you say available, is this the kind of information

25     that you published, as you've published other information, or is this

Page 8058

 1     information that you are telling us you believe was out on the

 2     grape-vine?

 3        A.   The latter statement is more accurate than the former.

 4        Q.   Considering the position that you took, Mr. Sacirbey, with regard

 5     to your right to self-defence, can you explain to the Chamber why you did

 6     not at that time make public to the world that you were involved inside

 7     arms deals whereby you would be obtaining weapons for the benefit of your

 8     nation which you believed to be appropriate?

 9        A.   I believe, Mr. Guy-Smith, most countries do not make public

10     information regarding receipt or even manufacture of weapons.  We

11     certainly took the view that in fact weapons were entitled to come;

12     that's correct on that point.

13        Q.   Did you take the view that you were entitled thereby to have

14     weapons come from another nation such as -- or another nation state such

15     as Croatia, who is also subject to 713, Mr. Sacirbey?

16        A.   Yes and whose territory at that time was also occupied, that's

17     correct.

18        Q.   So it's the your position that not only Bosnia-Herzegovina but

19     also Croatia, to the extent it was occupied, also was not bounds by the

20     strictures of 713; correct?

21        A.   It was primarily for Croatia to make that determination but I

22     think your conclusion is more accurate than not.

23        Q.   That was your position, sir, is what I'm asking.  I'm not asking

24     what Croatia did, that was your position.  That Croatia --

25        A.   If Croatia --

Page 8059

 1        Q.   That Croatia too --

 2        A.   Please go ahead.

 3        Q.   Sure.  That Croatia as well --

 4        A.   Well, Mr. Guy-Smith, first Croatia would have to --

 5     Mr. Guy-Smith, first of all, Croatia would have to take its own

 6     position -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 7        Q.   I'm not interested in that, Mr. Sacirbey.  I'm interested in your

 8     position as a diplomat in front of an international body fighting for

 9     your country where you have a side agreement with another nation state in

10     order to obtain weapons that have been deemed illegal under 713.

11        A.   I think the cart comes ahead of the horse here, Mr. Guy-Smith.

12     Croatia, first, has to make that determination, and only then could I act

13     upon that determination.

14        Q.   Once Croatia has made that determination, then, Mr. Sacirbey, I

15     take it, it was your position that this certainly was not information

16     that you wanted out in the public, and by that I mean that you would

17     publicly acknowledge that you were doing this, this being illegally

18     bringing weapons into the country?

19        A.   That's not correct.  In fact, we did acknowledge that weapons

20     were coming in and other necessary resources for defence.  We took that

21     position firmly on by 1994.

22        Q.   Just so we are clear because I certainly don't -- my

23     understanding is you are aware of the information that is contained

24     within this particular newspaper article, but you are not aware of the

25     article itself; correct?

Page 8060

 1        A.   You took me all the way to the back, so I haven't read the

 2     beginning of it.  I think I'm actually -- I think I am aware of the

 3     article, but I was reading right from the back so it didn't jog my

 4     memory, but, yes, I am aware of the contents.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well, could I have that then marked as

 6     Defendant's next no order.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 8     number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

10     Exhibit D145.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry to interrupt, Your Honours, but I do note the

13     time.  We've now being going for another hour and 25 minutes or so.  For

14     both my sake and perhaps the sake of the witness, I wonder if we could

15     have a break.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam.  I've been trying to do mental

17     arithmetic how to divide the remaining time.  I was coming to that, but

18     now that you are asking before I even get my answer.  We'll take a break

19     and come back at 10 past 5:00.  Court adjourned.

20                           --- Recess taken at 4.38 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 5.10 p.m.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  This will be tab number 8 in the original packet.

24     It's 1D03-4589.  This is a "Washington Times" article dated June 2nd,

25     1994.

Page 8061

 1             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that in front of me,

 2     Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   The article starts out indicating that:

 5             "Up to 400 Iranian Revolutionary Guards have been sent to Bosnia

 6     to organise terrorist groups among Muslims in the region, according to

 7     United States intelligence sources."

 8             Correct?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   The next paragraph discusses the arrival of the guards and

11     shipments of arms and explosives in May; right?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   And we were earlier discussing before the break the seizure of

14     shipments of explosives as well as the discovery of Iranian guards in the

15     month of May, 1994; true?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   And that was something that you were aware of, as I understood

18     your testimony?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now, what I would like to do is I'd like to turn to what I

21     believe is your page 2.  And it seems that information is now being

22     received that expands the fighters, the international fighters from those

23     of being only from Iran to including now fighters from Egypt,

24     Saudi Arabia, and Syria.  And I am going to ask you a series -- I'm gonna

25     talk about the article for a moment and ask you a series of questions

Page 8062

 1     rather than talk about each one of these things.

 2             The next paragraph indicates:

 3             "'The Saudi government has supplied several hundred million

 4     dollars' worth of arms to the Bosnian Muslims,' US officials said."

 5        A.   Yes, I see that.

 6        Q.   The next paragraph:

 7             "The activities of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards in Bosnian

 8     could complicate efforts to reach a peace settlement between Bosnian

 9     Serbs and Muslims."

10             I want to stop here for a moment, with regard to the information

11     that is contained within this article dated June 2nd, 1994, in your

12     capacity as the ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina, first of all, were you

13     aware of the fact that fighters from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria were

14     in Bosnia as reported in this article?

15        A.   I was aware of fighters from other countries including

16     Middle East, that is correct.  As well as countries like Romania, Greece,

17     but also from the Middle East; that is correct.

18        Q.   Okay.  And when you say from the Middle East, so we are clear, I

19     take it that you were indicating that you were aware that they were

20     fighters, from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and I take it from your answer

21     other member states of the United Nations?

22        A.   To be more precise, they would have been referred to as Arab

23     origin.

24        Q.   Okay.  Once again we seem to be --

25        A.   I'm not sure about the -- sorry go ahead.

Page 8063

 1        Q.   We seem to be talking at somewhat cross purposes.  I understand

 2     that you were aware that there were fighters from the Middle East.  Were

 3     you aware of the fact that there were fighters being supplied to

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina from Egypt, yes or no?

 5        A.   No.  You are saying fighters being supplied, which seems to

 6     emphasise that, in fact, these fighters were being somehow channelled

 7     through a regular means.  I am aware that there were a lot of fighters of

 8     Muslim background, particularly many Arabs, and many of them came from

 9     western Europe as well as the Middle East.

10        Q.   With regard to the fighters that came that are mentioned in this

11     particular paragraph, and I understand your particular concern, that you

12     do not want to answer the question to say that these were state

13     sanctioned fighters, my question is, Were you aware that there were

14     fighters who came from Egypt?

15        A.   Again, I'm only aware that fighters came of Arab origin or Muslim

16     origin from many places, the Middle East as well as western Europe.

17        Q.   So then your answer would be you do not have specific information

18     that fighters came from Egypt; correct?  Is that your testimony?

19        A.   That is correct.  That is correct.

20        Q.   I take the same would be true for Saudi Arabia, is that your

21     testimony?

22        A.   That is correct.  I'm -- it seems very likely that they came from

23     those countries, but I don't have any specific name to associate or any

24     specific group to associate with those countries.

25        Q.   With regard to Syria, I take it you would give the same answer,

Page 8064

 1     which is that you do not have any specific information that there were

 2     fighters that came from Syria who were fighting in Bosnia?

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   Now, with regard to the assertion made here, that there were

 5     fighters from the Middle East who were coming to Bosnia and that the

 6     Saudi government had supplied several hundred million dollars worth of

 7     arms to the Bosnian Muslims, this was a matter that was of concern to you

 8     as the ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina in representing the interest of

 9     that country before the United Nations General Assembly and

10     Security Council, was it not?

11        A.   To the extent that there were foreign fighters on any

12     quote/unquote side.  Or to the extent they were particularly mercenaries,

13     that would be a real concern.

14        Q.   Above and beyond that, you a specific concern, because such

15     reportage that there were quote, and I'm using the term in a generic

16     sense now, following your lead, that there were Muslim fighters, was

17     defining the problem in a way that you specifically did not want the

18     problem defined, and by that I mean along ethnic lines; correct?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   Armed with this information, Mr. Sacirbey, is this a matter that

21     you raised with your colleagues in the United Nations in these

22     discussions you had on the record and off the record, that they were not

23     to be concerned about the fact that there were Muslim fighters and Muslim

24     assets and Muslim money being given to Bosnia to help in your war effort?

25        A.   That they were not to be concerned?

Page 8065

 1        Q.   Precisely.

 2        A.   No, I don't think I would use the word that they were not to be

 3     concerned.  These were matters of certainly consideration.

 4        Q.   And when you say they were matters of consideration, as a matter

 5     of fact, they were more than matters of consideration, they were matters

 6     of some great moment, because the presence of these assets and these

 7     individuals in Bosnia was furthering, according to some, the war?

 8        A.   In my opinion, the presence of these people could in fact further

 9     what you were just speaking of earlier, which is the notion that this was

10     a religious conflict and that in fact it was just a pure civil war.  In

11     fact, I never saw it as either a religious conflict or as a civil war.

12     And obviously the motivation for these individuals coming to Bosnia could

13     be very different than the motivation of the Bosnian citizens and

14     soldiers who were just defending their country, in effect defending

15     themselves, and of course defending the territory, and defending against

16     genocide.  I think there were in fact potentially two counter-purposes.

17        Q.   One of the things that you objected to repeatedly, if I'm not

18     mistaken, and we heard it in your direct evidence, was when you were

19     identified as being a Muslim nation or a Muslim side; correct?

20        A.   That is correct.

21        Q.   So with regard to this particular issue, is this an issue that

22     you attempted, and by that I mean, the informations contained here that

23     you attempted to diminish in your capacity as an ambassador for

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina?  And by diminish, I'm referring to discussions had

25     with people at the United Nations, your colleagues at the United Nations,

Page 8066

 1     of various member states, to be very clear.

 2        A.   I'm not sure that's -- I'm not sure that's accurate.  Certainly,

 3     I did attempt to discuss this material with President Izetbegovic and

 4     others who I had contacts with in Bosnia.  Addressed its concern at least

 5     from the perspective of Bosnia's ideological and other positions at the

 6     United Nations.  And to the extent that it did come up at the

 7     United Nations, I am not sure I would dwell on it, but I'm not sure I

 8     would be evasive about it either.

 9        Q.   Well, with regard to the manner in which you presented your

10     arguments in front of the United Nations Security Council and to the

11     General Assembly, you made it very clear that there was a Bosnian side,

12     did you not?  A Bosnian Serb side?

13        A.   Your question is not clear to me.  I think you -- is it a

14     two-part question?

15        Q.   What I'm getting at is this, Mr. Sacirbey.  You very clearly

16     identified your perception of who the various players were in this

17     conflict.  One of the players in the conflict --

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   One of the players in the conflict was the Bosnian Serb side, as

20     far as you were concerned; right?

21        A.   Well, if you recall my testimony, I referred to it as the Serbian

22     side in almost every communication.  I think there are some exceptions to

23     that.  Or Pale Serbs.

24        Q.   And you consistently rejected the notion or the perception or the

25     identification of a Muslim Bosnian side, did you not?

Page 8067

 1        A.   Yes, I did.  Except in one instance, and that is to the extent

 2     that Muslims were identified as targets for genocide.

 3        Q.   I understand that.  But Muslims as being identified as

 4     individuals who were fighting on behalf of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that was

 5     something you rejected.

 6        A.   I did not -- that was not something as I viewed favouring the

 7     cause of Bosnia-Herzegovina or its, obviously, definition in the future

 8     as a multi-ethnic pluralistic state of all its citizens; that is correct.

 9        Q.   When you say it's something that you did not view as favouring

10     the cause of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it's a fact that you diminished in

11     public, the extent to which --

12        A.   Again I --

13        Q.   The extent to which Bosnia-Herzegovina was receiving aid and

14     assistance from a particular group, and by that I mean the Muslims?

15        A.   I don't think that's accurate.  I think you can receive aid from

16     Muslims without identifying yourself as somehow being part of a greater

17     Muslim cause or Jihad, if you would.

18        Q.   I'm sure that may be the case, sir, but with regard to the

19     concerns that were being voiced, if we might, and I refer you to the same

20     article that you are looking at -- and I refer you to the same article

21     you are looking at, if you go down --

22        A.   Right.

23        Q.   One after the indication, the activities the Iranian

24     Revolutionary Guard in Bosnia could complicate efforts, if you go down 1,

25     2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 paragraphs where Mr. Katzman is talking, and he says,

Page 8068

 1     "they don't are have to be that fervor," Mr. Katzman said of the recruits

 2     sought by the guards.  "The guards are like a virus, they get into a

 3     country and replicate themselves leaving a militia behind."

 4        A.   If you are asking me to comment on this overall article, first of

 5     all I do not believe there were 400 Iranian Revolutionary Guards in

 6     Bosnia, nor do I believe that they were fighters.

 7             And seconds of all, there was always a fundamental contradiction

 8     between the -- if you would, the Shiite Muslim Iranian Revolutionary

 9     Guard and the Sunni Muslims.  That contradiction existed throughout the

10     world.

11        Q.   Mr. Sacirbey, I think that you and I may, at another point in

12     time, have a conversation over the difference between Sunni and

13     Shiite Muslims, but I don't think now is necessarily the time or the

14     place, because what I'm dealing with is the perception here, the

15     perception that now we have voiced by Mr. Katzman, a Middle East

16     specialist with a Congressional Research Service which is found in the

17     same article, discussing the dilemma of the Revolutionary Guards on your

18     soil.

19        A.   And how would you like me to comment on that.  I'm sorry.  I do

20     read that.

21        Q.   My question is to you, this is a matter that you attempted to

22     diminish and to avoid.

23        A.   Again I --

24        Q.   I'm sorry.  Are you getting instruction?

25        A.   No, no, I was listening.  I was waiting to hear your question.

Page 8069

 1        Q.   I don't know if you are getting instruction or not.  I heard

 2     another voice, so --

 3        A.   No, no.

 4        Q.   -- I thought you might be getting instruction.

 5        A.   No, not at all.

 6        Q.   Whether this was something that you were avoiding in your

 7     capacity as the ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina to diminish the Muslim

 8     issue.

 9        A.   I was not trying to diminish the issue of whether or not Bosnia

10     was receiving assistance from Muslims or Muslim states.  I was trying to

11     in fact present a Bosnia in the context of one that was not committed to

12     a Muslim state but in fact committed to secular pluralistic state.  I

13     hope I'm answering your question.

14        Q.   You are doing the best you can.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Can we have that marked as Defendant's next in

16     order.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Just I assume my friend, as with the previous

18     exhibits, is proffering it not for truth of its contents but for a state

19     of mind, since the witness has agreed he does not agree with the accuracy

20     of the contents of this article, for example.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.  Don't mind that at all, not on this one.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  The document is then admitted into

23     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number for that purpose.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

25     Exhibit D146.  Thank you.

Page 8070

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I take it we are referring to 456, correct, the

 4     last exhibit?  Okay.  Fine.

 5             Can we please have 4592.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does it also start with ID03?

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  That would be, I

 8     believe, this would be number 9, Mr. Registrar, I believe.

 9        Q.   I believe that's an article dated the 24th of June, 1994.

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   Okay.  "Iranian weapons sent via Croatia aid to Muslims get US

12     wink"?

13        A.   That is correct.

14        Q.   Okay.  And I'd like you to look at the very bottom of this

15     article, where it says:

16             "Pentagon officials are concerned the Iranian arms, while helping

17     Muslims defends themselves, complicate peace efforts, which appear to be

18     foundering due to widespread violations of a June 10th truce agreement."

19        A.   Yes, I see that.  Actually, at that time it seemed that is the

20     truth was most effective.

21        Q.   At that time it seemed that the truth was most effective, is that

22     what you said?

23        A.   Yes, the middle of that summer in 1994.

24        Q.   Okay.  Do I take it, then, with regard to the statement made here

25     concerning there being widespread violations of that agreement, is that

Page 8071

 1     something that you take issue with?

 2        A.   If you remember my direct testimony, I believe I was asked what

 3     was the status of the truth in the summer of 1994, and I think I

 4     indicated that it was probably at its most effective in terms of at least

 5     the civilian population and what was happening to them.

 6        Q.   All right.  I'd like to turn to the next page of this article.

 7     And I'd like to go down 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 paragraphs to the paragraph which

 8     starts with "Kenneth Katzman ,"I believe the gentleman we were speaking

 9     about in the last article, "a specialist on Iran with the Congressional

10     Research Service, said Iran has offered to send 10.000 troops to Bosnia

11     as part of a UN force, but the world body does not want them there."

12             Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes, I see that.  Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Now is that something that was a matter of discussion within the

15     halls either formally or informally at the United Nations, that Iran

16     had --

17        A.   Iran --

18        Q.   That Iran had offered to send 10.000 troops to Bosnia at a time

19     when the truce was holding, according to you?

20        A.   Iran in fact had offered to send peacekeepers.  The number and

21     the times spanned the range of this conflict.

22        Q.   And when you use the term "peacekeepers" --

23        A.   It was only in the context of UN peacekeepers that I am aware of.

24        Q.   When you use the term "peacekeepers," is it is your testimony

25     that the 10.000 troops that Iran offered to send were going to be sent

Page 8072

 1     through the United Nations?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   I see.  Now, with regard to the issue of the lifting of the arms

 4     embargo, something that you were a great proponent of, if I'm not

 5     mistaken?

 6        A.   That is correct.

 7        Q.   I would like you to go down further in the article where it says:

 8             "On Capitol Hill, defence officials from Britain, France, Spain,

 9     and Denmark testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee

10     yesterday that a unilateral lifting of the arms embargo against Bosnia by

11     the United States would intensify the conflict."

12             I continue --

13        A.   Yes, I see that.

14        Q.   "'We believe that the lifting of the arms embargo would have the

15     effect of pouring gasoline on fire and mean an all-out war,' said Danish

16     undersecretary for Defence Anders Troldborg."

17             Mr. Troldborg appeared along with Jean Claude Mallet, the

18     director of strategic policy at the French Defence ministry; General Juan

19     Martinez Ezparza, a deputy undersecretary at the Spanish defence

20     ministry; and Major-General Rupert Smith, director of strategic policy at

21     the British Defence ministry?

22             Now my first question to you with regard to part of the article

23     is you were aware, were you not, that there were hearings in front of the

24     United States Senate arms services committee in June concerning the

25     lifting of the arms embargo?

Page 8073

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   And this is actually something that we actually discussed the

 3     other day with regard -- and I'm asking you the question, with regard to

 4     the private conversation that you had with Mr. Holbrooke to back off of

 5     Senator Dole; right?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   And just to refresh all of our recollection, Mr. Holbrooke told

 8     you that if you backed off pushing the United States Senate for lifting

 9     of the arms embargo, that you would get arms by other means; correct?

10        A.   As he put it, from any source including Iran.

11        Q.   I see.  Now, with regard to this statement here made by Danish

12     undersecretary for defence Anders Troldborg concerning pouring gasoline

13     and fire and mean an all-out war, could you tell us, please, what was

14     your position on the cessation of hostilities agreement as it related to

15     lifting of the embargo?

16        A.   It was positive.

17        Q.   It was positive.

18        A.   On the cessation of hostilities, we were certainly positive

19     because it provided the Bosnian citizens with certainly some greater

20     security as well as further assistance.  I must point out again, though,

21     that this comment here, I'm not sure what anyone believes Bosnia had been

22     undergoing for the previous two plus years, if it was not an all-out war.

23     It was not only an attack on the country from one end to the other, but

24     in fact the civilian population had been targeted and as I have said --

25        Q.   I understand your position there.

Page 8074

 1        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2        Q.   I understand your position there.  And you've said it the same

 3     way they vote in Chicago early and often, and I understand your position.

 4     But with regard to this particular concern being voiced by one of the

 5     members -- a representative of one of the members of the United Nations

 6     that would have the effects of pouring gasoline on the fire, did you take

 7     that in consideration when you were pushing for a lifting of this

 8     embargo?

 9        A.   Actually, we did.

10        Q.   And the position that you took was in the face of such a

11     statement that it was your position that the embargo should be lifted;

12     correct?

13        A.   No, it was actually our position, if in fact the international

14     community was not capable of suffocating the war, that in fact the

15     Bosnian government and its people should be allowed to defend themselves.

16     Clearly there was not either a will, perhaps maybe there was not a means,

17     but certainly there was not a will suffocate that war, put out the fire.

18        Q.   I'd like you to turn to the next page of this document, if you

19     could, sir.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Looking at the last paragraphs, it says:

22             "Meanwhile, leaders of the United States, Russia, and Europe are

23     expected to endorse a peace plan dividing up Bosnia at an economic summit

24     meeting next month as senior administration officials said."

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that what we have on the screen?

Page 8075

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not sure, Your Honour.  The page breaks are

 2     different, so we are going to have to go back a page.  It will be the

 3     very last paragraph.  And if we could now go on to the next page after

 4     everyone has had an opportunity to look at that page.

 5        Q.   "'The plan calls for giving Muslims and Croats 51 per cent of

 6     Bosnian territory, while Bosnian Serbs would get 49 per cent.  The Serbs

 7     currently control about 72 per cent of Bosnia.  The Bosnian government

 8     has reacted negatively to the plan and will eventually resort to military

 9     action to obtain more territory by force rather than through

10     negotiations,' US officials said."

11        A.   I believe that statement is very inaccurate.

12        Q.   First of all, let's talk about this plan.  The plan that calls

13     for giving about 51 per cent of Bosnian territory to Muslims and Croats

14     and 49 per cent to the Serbs.  Now, is that a plan that you were familiar

15     with?

16        A.   Yes, I was.

17        Q.   And who was the author of that plan, if you know?

18        A.   The Contact Group, which consisted of five countries as well as

19     the United Nations.

20        Q.   Okay.  And with regard to -- with regard to the plan itself, is

21     it your position that this is a plan that was endorsed by

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23        A.   Yes, it was, and the plan also -- this article seems to imply

24     that we are talking about a partition of Bosnia.  In fact it was only an

25     internal --

Page 8076

 1        Q.   There was only an -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2        A.   There was no partition ever -- there was no partition that was

 3     proposed by this plan.  In fact it was only an internal delineation.

 4        Q.   An internal deviation or -- Mr. Sacirbey, hold on.

 5        A.   Delineation.

 6        Q.   Delineation is what you said.

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   Fine.  Okay.  Thank you.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would like to have it this marked as

10     Defendant's next in order with an understanding, once again, because

11     Mr. Sacirbey has taken issue with certain aspects of it, and I think

12     specifically with "the Bosnian government has reacted negatively to the

13     plan," that particular statement is not being offered for the truth of

14     the matters -- contained in the document.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

16     please be given an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document should be given

18     Exhibit D147.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we please have -- this would be tab 82 in

22     the new batch, which would be 1D03-6495.  July 2nd article from Reuters.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While it's coming, Mr. Guy-Smith, are we likely to

24     finish with this witness today?

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't think so, Your Honour.

Page 8077

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't think so.  But we certainly will not take

 3     all of tomorrow, I can assure you of that.

 4        Q.   Now, this article deals with tonnes of military equipment are

 5     landing at a tiny air strip on the island of Krk, and the weapons are

 6     taken by road or boat for eventual delivery in Bosnia.  Is this part of

 7     the route by which your country was receiving arms?

 8        A.   Are you again asking for personal knowledge at the time or?

 9        Q.   At this moment I'm asking for personal knowledge, yes.

10        A.   I was not personally aware of this, no.  I was aware of,

11     obviously, all the reports of shipments coming in from Croatia.

12        Q.   Okay.  Were you aware -- referring to the same article again:

13             "United Nations cannot stop the flights, even though it knows the

14     arms are bound for Bosnian Muslims, because Croatia is outside the scope

15     of the arms embargo ...  There is nothing we can do except watch these

16     arms being delivered," it quoted United States spokesman Paul Risley as

17     saying.

18             Did you ever speak to Mr. Risley about this issue?

19        A.   I don't remember that I did.

20        Q.   You know who Mr. Risley is though?

21        A.   Actually, it escapes me right now, I must admit, although the

22     name sounds familiar.

23        Q.   With regard to the next paragraph:

24             "Arms are being flown to Croatia and Slovenia by private

25     companies, some of them British, lured by promises of big cash payouts.

Page 8078

 1     Some of the supplies appear to be coming from Ukraine and Iran..."

 2             Well, in your capacity as the ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 3     were you aware of the fact that private British companies were engaged in

 4     merchandising the weapons of war?

 5        A.   Not specifically, no.

 6        Q.   When you say not specifically, is this something that you had --

 7     is this general knowledge?

 8        A.   I certainly was aware that there were many institutions from

 9     several countries, and it would not surprise me that many of them would

10     come from non -- traditionally non-Muslim countries, including

11     Western Europe and others.

12        Q.   And I take it we could agree that British -- British company

13     would be a European -- would be a company in a European nation which is

14     non-Muslim; right?

15        A.   I think we can agree on that, yes.

16        Q.   I think we can also agree on the fact that the United Kingdom is

17     a member state of the United Nations; correct?

18        A.   That is correct.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I have this as Defendant's next in order.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

21     number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

23     Exhibit D148.  Thank you.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:

25        Q.   With regard to weapons that you -- your country was receiving,

Page 8079

 1     you knew, did you not, that you were getting weapons including the

 2     Red Arrow 8s from the People's Liberation Army of China, which are guided

 3     missiles; right?

 4        A.   On that point, no, not specifically.

 5        Q.   Well, you were aware, were you not, that your country was

 6     receiving RPG22 anti-rockets that were made in Russia, were you not?

 7        A.   I was aware that anti-tank weapons were a very important element

 8     of the defence, and I assumed they were being received.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And for the first one you said specifically, and by that

10     I'm referring to the latest wire-guided missiles.  Were you aware of the

11     fact during your tenure as ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina that your

12     country was receiving missiles from China?

13        A.   No, I was not.

14        Q.   Were you aware in the same capacity that your country was

15     receiving RPG22 anti-rockets that were made in Russia?  And that may go

16     back to the discussion we had before with regard to the Russian diplomats

17     that you met in the hallways of the United Nations.

18        A.   Again, I'm not specifically aware of any such designated weapon.

19     I'm only aware of anti-tank weapons having been received by Bosnia.

20        Q.   And of the anti-tank weapons that you are aware of, are you aware

21     of their genesis, since apparently you are not aware of their specific

22     type, are you aware that Bosnia-Herzegovina received weapons from both

23     China and Russia?

24        A.   I was aware that weapons did come from the former Soviet block.

25        Q.   That takes care of one of the two.  What about China, sir?

Page 8080

 1        A.   I think I answered that I really wasn't aware, or maybe it just

 2     slips me, but I don't think I was aware of that report.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Tab 50, please, which is 1D03-0816.

 5        Q.   This is a letter, I believe, that you authored which you asked to

 6     be circulated in the Security Council on the 18th of August, 1994?

 7        A.   Yes, I am familiar with this.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, with regard to the issue of -- with regard to the

 9     issue of the truce agreement that we were talking about before, perhaps

10     you can be of some assistance.  Looking at paragraph 2, it says:  "The

11     8 June 1994 and 12 July 1994 cease-fire agreement has expired without

12     being renewed."

13        A.   Yes, this was the negotiations regarding the Contact Group plan.

14        Q.   Right.

15        A.   Which in fact was presented in Geneva by the Contact Group at the

16     US embassy, I was actually present at that meeting.  And

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina accepted this plan; the Serbian side rejected it.  And

18     obviously at that time the status quo on the ground was Bosnian city is

19     still besieged and intermittent fighting.

20        Q.   Right.  Now, with regard to what you've just said, you said the

21     Serbian side rejected it, right, that's what you just told us?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   I'd like to take a look at paragraph 3 here, and you were quite

24     specific with regard to who rejected this plan, were you not, what you

25     said was in your letter --

Page 8081

 1        A.   I was.

 2        Q.   -- "the Republican Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina accepted

 3     the Contact Group peace plan.  The Karadzic forces have rejected the

 4     plan, and have demanded terms and conditions that are totally

 5     inconsistent with the territorial, constitutional, and human rights

 6     standards envisioned by the Contact Group's plan.  The Karadzic forces,

 7     in fact, have effectively proposed the status quo as their basis for a

 8     political settlement and therefore would favour a freezing of the current

 9     situation."  Right?

10        A.   That is correct.  That is the mouth from which the rejection was

11     coming.

12        Q.   Excuse me, that's what you wrote, sir; right?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   And this was unacceptable to you at that time; right?

15        A.   In the context of this letter, that's correct.

16        Q.   Now, within the context of this letter, you go on to say:

17             "The government and the army of the Republic of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina are undertaking measures entirely consistent with the terms

19     and spirit of the Contact Group's peace plan.  Any attempts to cite the

20     army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina explicitly or implicitly as

21     violating a cease-fire, A, are factually incorrect because there is no

22     longer a cease-fire agreement in place ..."

23             And I want to stop there for a minute.  And go to the first

24     paragraph of this letter, sir, in which you say:

25             "Upon the instructions of my government, I would like to clarify

Page 8082

 1     a recent matter that has been a source of confusion in the deliberations

 2     of the Security Council."

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   What are you claiming was the source of confusion at that time?

 5        A.   I cannot recall the specific incident, but I can only surmise

 6     that it had to do with --

 7        Q.   If you can't recall, I'm not asking you to speculate.

 8        A.    -- reports of -- no, I cannot recall.

 9        Q.   Going to the bottom of page 1, you indicate:

10             "The government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina could

11     not be blamed for interpreting any Security Council statements that are

12     inconsistent with the Contact Group peace plan and associated course of

13     action as being a rejection of that peace plan and consequent course of

14     action."

15             Now, with regard to the statement that you made there -- and

16     perhaps we should go to the next page so that you have your full

17     paragraph, which is:  "This would be --

18        A.   Yes, I have that.

19        Q.   -- "especially tragic and indefensible, since four members of the

20     Contact Group are also permanent members of the Security Council."

21             When you say on the first page that you could not be blamed for

22     interpreting any Security Council statements, are you referring to

23     resolutions?

24        A.   I don't believe so because we are speaking of statements coming

25     either informal or formal from the Security Council.

Page 8083

 1        Q.   Are you referring to any presidential notes?

 2        A.   That could be the case.  I just don't specifically recall.

 3        Q.   With regard to this language, interpreting any Security Council's

 4     statements, would it be fair to say -- and I'm asking for your assistance

 5     here, would it be fair to say that what you are discussing here are the

 6     oral statements and opinions made by some member during a

 7     Security Council meeting?

 8        A.   I just don't recall.  Obviously, I remember what the motive is

 9     and what the purpose is; I just don't recall what triggered it,

10     Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could I have this letter as Defendant's next in

12     order then.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The letter is admitted into evidence.  May it

14     please be given an exhibit number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be given

16     Exhibit D149.  Thank you.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could go to -- it's going to be number 11

18     in the first package, Mr. Registrar, which is 1D03-4597.

19             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:

21        Q.   And I'd like you to go down on the very first page and see

22     whether -- whether or not you recall this:  First of all, so we are

23     clear, and I do apologise to the Chamber, this is an article dated

24     September 4th, 1994, from the "Washington Times."

25        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.

Page 8084

 1        Q.   Okay.  The second paragraph says:

 2             "The Bosnian army has nearly completed a buildup of 200.000

 3     troops and asked the Iranian government, through its embassy in Zagreb

 4     Croatia, to provide the military support as part of the next weapons

 5     shipment from Iran, according to sources."

 6             And then I would like to drop down 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 paragraphs

 7     to where it says:

 8             "Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic has said recently that

 9     lifting the embargo is not necessary because of his country's successful

10     military buildup."

11             You see that?

12        A.   Yes, I do.  And I don't agree with several paragraphs in this

13     article.

14        Q.   Well, I'm only asking you about these couple for the moment.

15     Moving on to the next page --

16        A.   Okay.

17        Q.   Moving on to the next page:

18             "Officials have said weapons originated in sites including Iran,"

19     which we've talked about before, "Iraq, and Lebanon.  And the circuitous

20     delivery routes have been used to avoid tracking by western intelligence

21     agencies.

22             "Still the shipments have been followed from the Middle East

23     through," and now we have two new countries, "Malaysia and turkey and

24     into Croatia."

25             First of all, before we go my further, to your knowledge, is

Page 8085

 1     Turkey a member state of the United Nations?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   And what about Malaysia?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   And what about Lebanon?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   Okay.  In your capacity as an ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 8     were you aware of the fact that both Malaysia and Turkey had committed

 9     troops to work with UNPROFOR?

10        A.   Yes, I was.

11        Q.   With regard to the information that's contained in the paragraph

12     that we have spoken about first of all, which is the Bosnian army has

13     nearly completed a buildup of 200.000 troops, had you been informed by

14     your president or your military that such was the case by September 4th,

15     1994?

16        A.   That in fact Bosnia had nearly 200.000 troops under its command

17     at that time, yes.

18        Q.   Were you made aware of the fact by your president that lifting of

19     the embargo was not necessary because of your country's successful

20     military buildup?

21        A.   I don't believe that statement is accurate.

22        Q.   Okay.

23        A.   Even its attribution to President Izetbegovic.  Actually, to be

24     complete, President Izetbegovic did make a somewhat similar statement

25     before the UN General Assembly after the discussion that I cited with

Page 8086

 1     Mr. Holbrooke.  But I do not -- I do not believe that this particular

 2     time and this particular reference is accurate.  And also the first

 3     paragraph speaks of a major offensive against the town of Gorazde.  Well,

 4     at least it's sloppy writing because Gorazde in fact was under the

 5     control of the Bosnian government.  So how can you have an offensive led

 6     by the Bosnian government against the town that it holds?

 7        Q.   Let me ask you this, Mr. Sacirbey, with regard to the issue of

 8     the troop buildup, are you in a position to tell us what the troop

 9     strength was in Sarajevo at that time?

10        A.   Region by region, no.  Region by region, no.

11        Q.   Was that information that was given to you in your capacity as

12     the representative of Bosnia-Herzegovina during your tenure at the

13     United Nations?

14        A.   It could have been, but I don't recall it.

15        Q.   Let me ask you this question:  I believe it's going to be page 2

16     of the same document.  It says -- and I'm going down eight paragraphs, it

17     says:

18             "'The Bosnian Muslims have launched numerous grounds attack using

19     special tactics that have given them advantages over the better-armed

20     Serbs,' the officer said.  'They have shown a great ability to move on

21     the ground, to move at night, very innovative.'  The officer said the

22     tactics do not reflects Russian or Iranian training but appeared to have

23     been developed by the Bosnian Muslims themselves."

24             Do you agree with that particular assertion made in this article?

25        A.   Again, without specifically knowing what the tactics that they

Page 8087

 1     are referring to, I think in fact there was of course a need for greater

 2     innovation and courage.

 3        Q.   Well, is this something -- is this something that you discussed

 4     with your president, that in face of --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   That in face of the kinds of weapons, that you had to come up

 7     with, innovative tactics, and in fact you were successful in that regard?

 8        A.   To some extent, but, frankly, I think we were more successful in

 9     stemming the tide rather than reversing it.  I think in fact there was --

10        Q.   Well --

11        A.   Please go ahead.

12        Q.   Well, my question really is, is this something that you agree

13     with this particular statement contained in this article?

14             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry to interrupt, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

16             MS. BOLTON:  My friend this last few questions just seems to be

17     by asking for the witness's opinions on various subjects, the current

18     subject being military tactics.  He is not a specialist or expert in

19     military tactics.  His opinions on any matter, really, are of absolutely

20     no import to the Tribunal, and I object on that basis.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well ...  I'll move on based upon the assertion

23     just made by Ms. Bolton.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess by that you are saying you accept the

25     objection, and therefore you'll move away from --

Page 8088

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I accept the objection based upon her analysis of

 2     what she says in her objection.  That's fine.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard to this specific issue.  This

 5     specific document.

 6             If I could have -- and I believe it's going to be tab 52.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would move its admission.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

10     number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

12     Exhibit D150.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, just with respect to that last exhibit, I

14     take it again since the witness took exception to great amount of the

15     contents of the document that that will just be noted on the record.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess you accept that, Mr. Guy-Smith.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understand that, yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  It is admitted for those purposes.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have tab 52, which is going to be

20     1D03-0822.

21             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I'm there.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:

23        Q.   Have you had a chance to look at the document, Mr. Sacirbey?

24        A.   It's the 17th of --

25        Q.   I apologise, I mispronounced your name, Mr. Sacirbey.

Page 8089

 1        A.   This is 17th of October, 1994?

 2        Q.   That's correct.  This is a four-page document, which I believe is

 3     a letter that was written by you that you asked to have circulated as

 4     part of the Security Council.

 5        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.  It's a long letter, but I'm

 6     prepared for you to ask whatever question you feel is appropriate.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to start off with the assertion that you make

 8     that there is now a new mandate which you call a rogue mandate attributed

 9     to UNPROFOR.

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   And as I understand your objections, your objections are that

12     this rogue mandate, as you call it, gives the Bosnian Serbs a military

13     advantage over Sarajevo; correct?

14        A.   I think it's best summarised by the last paragraph in the first

15     page.  It appears that UNPROFOR had adopted the Bosnian Serb view that

16     the siege of Sarajevo and status of its civilian population as hostages

17     were legitimate military countermeasures.

18        Q.   Now, with regard to -- with regard to this particular position

19     that you've taken, could you tell us, if you recall, who was the head of

20     UNPROFOR at this time in October of 1994?

21        A.   I believe it was still General Rose.  I think it's still a little

22     time before General Rupert Smith would come in.

23        Q.   Mm-hmm.  And I know that you have a very definite view about

24     General Rose which we may get to, but --

25        A.   As I do about General Rupert Smith, and the views are quite

Page 8090

 1     contradictory as to those two individuals.

 2        Q.   Yes, I understand that.  I'm well aware of that.  With regard to

 3     this issue here concerning that UNPROFOR has adopted the Bosnian Serb

 4     view of the siege of Sarajevo, is it my understanding that when you wrote

 5     this letter, what you were suggesting and what you believed at the time

 6     was that UNPROFOR was, I use this term, which I think you'll understand,

 7     was pitching for the Bosnian Serbs by virtue of the manner in which

 8     General Rose was acting?

 9        A.   That's a pretty sharp characterisation.  I think UNPROFOR was

10     taking a position of not only neutrality, but favouring the status quo,

11     which in fact I think would very much further the Bosnian Serb position,

12     in particular in their rejection of the Contact Group peace plan.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  Could you help us here on page -- it's

14     page 2 in the hard copy, and I'm not sure it's going to be page 2 in the

15     electronic copy, but I'll let the Court know in a moment.  Yes, it is.

16        Q.   If we could go down to paragraph number 3, you state:

17             "To justify in morally and legally flawed policy more

18     effectively, it would also be appropriate to delegitimize the status and

19     objectives of the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The

20     army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, therefore, must be

21     projected as being more or less on the same moral and legal level of the

22     'Bosnian Serbs.'  For this reason, while certain UNPROFOR officials are

23     conspicuously silent in their criticism with respect to numerous

24     opportunities offered by the actions of the Bosnian Serbs, they have,"

25     going on to the next page, "been all too eager to find blame, real or

Page 8091

 1     fabricated, with respect to the army of the Republic of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina."

 3        A.   Yes, I believe the matter was one of reprisal.  The army of the

 4     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina did not engage in any reprisals, while

 5     in fact there were many documented events and would continue to be of

 6     reprisals against UN forces by the Serbian military.

 7        Q.   And with regard to the certain UNPROFOR officials who were

 8     conspicuously silent in their criticism here, are you attributing this

 9     silence to the likes of General Rose?

10        A.   I believe at that time I am.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.

12             Yes, Madam Bolton, I didn't hear you.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, again this entire questioning with respect to

14     this document, the views of this witness with respect to other persons in

15     this case, General Rose, I don't see the relevance.  Again it's his

16     opinion on --

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It might be something if somebody else penned the

18     document, but this is his document.  These are his thoughts, his words,

19     and this is something that was published to the United Nations

20     Security Council.  So I think we find ourselves in a slightly different

21     position than we've been in before.  If my -- if my opponent is taking

22     the position that Mr. Sacirbey's opinions are of no consequence

23     whatsoever in any respect whether he penned the document or as held forth

24     here on a particular subject or not, then I have to reconsider my

25     examination.  If that's the position that the Prosecution is taking.

Page 8092

 1     That Mr. Sacirbey's opinions in terms of things that he says himself are

 2     of no consequence, of no moment, and have no weight with regard to the

 3     Chamber's determination of any of the matters that are before you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  I never fall into the trap of speaking in absolutes.

 6     I can indicate that with respect to the opinion -- my friend is asking a

 7     question here, it seems to be, that calls for Mr. Sacirbey's personal

 8     opinion.  With respect to this calling for the witness's personal

 9     opinion, my view, it's prohibited under the guide-lines that we've

10     adopted where opinions are generally limited to expert witnesses.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To the extent that Mr. Sacirbey is the author of

12     this document, don't you see the question as seeking a clarification of

13     what he meant when he said -- when he wrote what he wrote?

14             MS. BOLTON:  Not if it doesn't have some relevance beyond -- what

15     is the relevance of what he wrote?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know what the relevance is, but the point

17     of the matter is that your objection is based on the fact that your

18     opposite member is seeking opinion evidence from the witness.  And I'm

19     saying if this is a document written by the witness himself, isn't that

20     seeking clarification of what he actually meant so that maybe at a later

21     stage he is able to say, Well, the man wrote this, and I asked him what

22     he meant by this, and this is what he said he meant.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Well, I should have been clearer in my objection.

24     It's based part on the fact that he is calling for an opinion.  But it's

25     also based on the fact that he is calling for an opinion on an issue that

Page 8093

 1     has no relevance in and of itself.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, the Chamber has sort of ruled to admit these

 3     documents simply because of the explanation that was given that they go

 4     to notice to Mr. Perisic of what he knew and how he reacted to what he

 5     knew.  To that extent, we still would not agree with your objection on

 6     that ground, but to the extent that what you call opinion evidence sounds

 7     to me to be seeking a clarification of what the man meant when he wrote

 8     what he wrote.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:

12        Q.   With regard to what you wrote, Mr. Sacirbey, could you kindly

13     explain to the Chamber, first of all, with regard to the certain UNPROFOR

14     officials who were conspicuously silent in their criticism, who you were

15     referring to in your letter?

16        A.   It would be fair to say that one of them would have been

17     General Rose; the other one would have been Mr. Akashi.

18        Q.   You go on in your letter to say, and this will be on the next

19     page, sir.  At the very bottom paragraph:

20             "Once again we wish to express our appreciation to the

21     overwhelming majority," and you continue.  Thank you.  You say here:

22             "Nonetheless, unless corrective steps are undertaken urgently,

23     the overall United Nations mandated actions within the Republic of Bosnia

24     and Herzegovina will be subverted and become consumed by the consequences

25     of an unauthorised mandate.  Sustaining the unacceptable status quo is

Page 8094

 1     not the same as preserving the neutrality of UNPROFOR, in fact, quite the

 2     opposite.  Those responsible for acting outside," next page, please, "and

 3     in contradiction to Security Council resolutions must be brought into

 4     line or appropriately addressed.

 5             "For our part, the government of the Republic of Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina will continue to maximise cooperation with UNPROFOR and other

 7     mandated efforts.  Similarly, those who act in contravention to

 8     Security Council mandates cannot continue to enjoy the privileges and

 9     legal status associated with service in furtherance of United Nations

10     mandates."

11             Now, my question here to you, sir, is, as I understand it, you

12     are asking in this letter for, not to put too blunt a point on it, for

13     the removal of General Rose, are you not?

14        A.   Well, I think you read the paragraph yourself.  The first point

15     is to bring him in line with the Security Council resolutions.  I think

16     paragraph 4 here, and it's an extensive paragraph, addresses the

17     corrective measures we would like to see.  To the extent that these

18     individuals or commanders are unable to live up to their mandate as

19     provided by the Security Council, then the Security Council should

20     consider taking further steps including removing them potentially, yes.

21        Q.   You've used the plural of them, so I want to be fair here to you

22     and certainly don't want to misstate anything.  When you say "them," am I

23     correct in my understanding that this letter includes not only

24     General Rose but also Mr. Akashi as being the individuals you are

25     concerned as being outside of acting appropriately?

Page 8095

 1        A.   The letter is oblique purposely because, of course, I cannot make

 2     a direct determination as to who is responsible.  But you are asking me

 3     for my opinion before, and my personal opinion was with respect to

 4     Mr. Akashi and General Rose.  Whether upon further examination, the

 5     Security Council would agree with that conclusion, and whether the facts

 6     would actually bear that out, of course, remain to be seen.

 7        Q.   Understood.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  First of all, I'll like this marked as

 9     Defendant's next in order.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Its admitted into evidence.  May it please be

11     given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This becomes Exhibit D151.

13     Thank you.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:

15        Q.   And now, with regard to what you've just said which is a

16     relatively strong position, I take it that this is something that you

17     discussed with members of the Security Council informally and formally,

18     did you not?  And by that I mean, you identified both General Rose and

19     Mr. Akashi as being individuals who, in your opinion, were engaged in a

20     rogue mandate?

21        A.   Formally by identifying them, I'm not sure of that.  Informally,

22     yes.  I don't recall any situation where -- I certainly had references to

23     some direct elements of their performance and how they in fact undertook

24     their mandate.  But again, I think this letter stands on its own, and it

25     is intentionally oblique as to naming individuals.

Page 8096

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Excuse me, Mr. Sacirbey.  My screen has stopped.

 2     There's no typing, there's no movement of my screen.  Half your answer

 3     was not typed; the entire answer is not on the screen.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm suffering the same dilemma, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Might be a technical problem we are having

 6     somewhere.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Your Honour, we are entirely good at

 8     this end.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Should we take a five, ten minute break?  Or do

10     you want to hold -- whatever you want to do, Judge.  I'm happy to do

11     whatever you want to do.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I want to make sure first that we can capture your

13     question and the answer to it, if that's possible.  If not, maybe we

14     might ask you to re-state the question.  But first of all we got to find

15     out what is the reason for this.

16             The stenographer says hers is working properly, so at least we've

17     got the record with her, but we don't have it here.

18             Yes, Madam Bolton.

19             MS. BOLTON:  I have the same experience, this monitor is working,

20     and this monitor is not working.  I don't know why that would be.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, the one that is working is the one that we up

22     here -- or at least me who is computer illiterate.  I use that for

23     exhibits, not for transcript, because otherwise I'm not able to pull out

24     my exhibits on my own side.

25             MS. BOLTON:  I was going to say that's the same problem I have.

Page 8097

 1     I can't watch the witness and the exhibit and follow the transcript.  So

 2     I would ask that we correct this problem before we continue.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Ms. Bolton and I are in agreement.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, fine.  We take the agreement between the two

 5     parties that this problem be resolved, and given the length of time we've

 6     been sitting, I think we might take the break for the day and come back

 7     tomorrow at that point in time in the afternoon at quarter past 2.00.

 8             Let me just make sure that Mr. Sacirbey hears me.

 9             Mr. Sacirbey, we have a technical problem.  It's late in the day.

10     We are going to take a break and come back tomorrow in the afternoon

11     again, morning for you.  The warning stands, no discussions until you are

12     excused from the witness-stand.

13             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.  Understood.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Court adjourned.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.29 p.m.

16                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of

17                           July, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.