Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8861

 1                           Wednesday, 2 September 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.41 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon in

 8     and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor

 9     versus Momcilo Perisic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Could we have appearances

11     for the day, starting with Prosecution, please.

12             MR. HARMON:  Yes, good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

13     counsel, everyone in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata, and

14     Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  And for the Defence.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

17     afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic today is

18     represented by case manager, Daniela Tasic; our legal assistants,

19     Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec; and Gregor Guy-Smith, and Novak Lukic as

20     counsel.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.  And just start by

22     apologising for starting a little late.  We thought the swearing-in would

23     take only 15 minute, it took more than it should have.

24             Mr. Harmon.

25             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour.  Before we begin -- first of all,

Page 8862

 1     Mr. Cannata will lead the witness, but before we begin, there is a motion

 2     in limine before the Chamber, and it was filed last night.  I received a

 3     copy of it myself last night.  I frankly do not believe there are any

 4     issues that the Court needs to address in that motion.  The parties are

 5     agreed that the limits that relate to the agreement have been clearly

 6     defined in that agreement.  Those are that the --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me, are you responding to the motion?

 8             MR. HARMON:  No, I am -- I'm just saying the reason I'm not

 9     responding is because the parties have, first of all, discussed the

10     matter; two, there is not any issue as to the parameters of what the

11     Prosecution can lead in respect of the facts.  So I am giving

12     Your Honours an explanation as to why I have not responded in writing

13     from last night.  I do not believe at this point the Court needs to

14     decide anything on this motion.  That is a the first thing I'd like to

15     are inform the Court of.

16             The second thing I'd like to inform the Court of, is that in the

17     course of discussions that were stimulated by that filing last night,

18     counsel for the Defence and I met this morning and discussed or discussed

19     certain items that related to the agreement that related to Srebrenica.

20     There were certain facts that related to that specifically in relation to

21     the third fact that dealt with the busing of civilians from the --

22     Potocari.  We have reached, amongst ourselves, an additional agreement

23     that we will be submitting to the Court in writing and asking the Court

24     to adopt those -- the additional agreement.  The additional agreement

25     deals with the nature of the transfer, that is, it was forced.  And so we

Page 8863

 1     will be filing that.  The result of and the effect of that new agreement

 2     is it has narrowed the amount of evidence we intend to lead through

 3     certain witnesses who we have identified and will be calling including

 4     the first witness today.

 5             So I just will have a truncated examination today by virtue of

 6     that agreement that we have reached.

 7             Now, Mr. Cannata will lead the witness, Your Honour.  I have

 8     nothing further to add.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank Mr. Harmon.  Mr. Lukic.  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I've been asked to deal with this matter.  In

11     large measure that which Mr. Harmon has said is accurate, the motion

12     limine he filed was directed towards three witnesses.  The first witness

13     is the witness who will be testifying shortly, and, in that regard, I

14     believe that Mr. Harmon has accurately indicated that we have come to an

15     additional agreement which will be found and will be identified most

16     probably as 3.1(b) dealing with the issue of movement.

17             With regard to the remaining two witnesses, whose names I will

18     not mention at the present time because I'm unclear about their status as

19     to whether or not they will be protected or not protected, I believe that

20     we once again are close, if not in fact there, with regard to both of

21     those witnesses.  However, I'm hesitant to be quite as bold as Mr. Harmon

22     is with regard to there being no remaining issues whatsoever.  I think we

23     are probably 99 per cent there, but I'm not positive that we are a

24     hundred per cent there.  And I just wish to interpose a cautionary note

25     in the event that there are any unfortunate misunderstandings or

Page 8864

 1     differing views with regard to the extent of the evidence to be led now

 2     that we have worked out a number of matters that heretofore have not been

 3     worked out.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, you confirm that insofar as the

 5     witness who is about to testify is concerned, the parties are agreed and

 6     the Chamber need not give any decision on that issue?

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             Mr. Cannata.

10             MR. CANNATA:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Before I call the

11     next witness, I have a preliminary matter that I'd like to discussion in

12     private session.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

14             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8865











11 Pages 8865-8869 redacted. Private session.















Page 8870

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

 8             MR. CANNATA:  My apologies, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Sir, did you and your family at some point in time on the 11th of

10     July, 1995, flee from Kutezero?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Why did you flee?

13        A.   We fled from the Chetniks.

14        Q.   Where did you go when you and members of your family fled from

15     Kutezero?

16        A.   We went to a village called Vihor.

17        Q.   And where did you go afterwards?

18        A.   Potocari, on the following day, and that's where I spent the

19     night.  And that night I went down there.

20        Q.   Sir, when I asked you why did you flee from Kutezero, you told me

21     that you fled from the Chetniks.

22        A.   From the Chetniks because I know my village was attacked on the

23     3rd of May, 1992, anybody who came across in the village, they

24     slaughtered them, they slit their throats, that's why I escaped together

25     with the children.

Page 8871

 1        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  And just for the record, what

 2     ethnicity are you?

 3        A.   I'm a Muslim.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, let's go back to the answer that you gave

 5     me.  You told me that you went to Potocari and you spent the night there.

 6        A.   Yes, two nights in Potocari.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, I'm talking about the first night.  Where did you

 8     spend the night in Potocari?  Is there a particular location where you

 9     were at the time?

10        A.   In the factory called Cinkara, the zinc plant.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, apart from yourself and members of your

12     family, were there any other people gathered at Cinkara, the zinc

13     factory?

14        A.   There were thousands of people there.  Thousands and thousands.

15        Q.   Can you tell us what do these people look to you?

16        A.   Which people, the ones that were with me?  They were all

17     civilians, both familiar faces and unfamiliar faces, women, children,

18     young people, people of all ages.

19        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  Now, I'd like to draw your attention

20     to a particular episode on the 12th July, 1995.  And I'm referring to the

21     killings that took place in the area between the Cinkara, the zinc

22     factory, and Aljo's house.  Can you tell the Court what you saw that day.

23        A.   On that day, the situation became calmer, and we came out of

24     Cinkara, people were in the woods above Cinkara.  I sat with Dzemal Karic

25     from Kasaba.  There were a lot of us, and then we saw Chetniks.  We

Page 8872

 1     started hiding under --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.  The

 3     interpreters could not follow at this pace.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you please speak slowly, because as you

 5     speak, some people -- just hold on, please.  Just hold on.  I'm still

 6     talking.  As you speak, some people are interpreting to us what you are

 7     saying because we do not understand your language, so you got to give

 8     them an opportunity to translate what you are saying before you say --

 9     you go on further to speak.  Thank you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people fled to Cinkara and then

11     Chetniks followed them with the guns.  Dzemal Karic and I, we hid by the

12     shed and he came with four men and he took them to the house, to Alija's

13     house where the fence was broken down, and they made a raft and then the

14     Chetniks were there.  He took one of them by the hands, the other one by

15     his hands as well, they put their heads down and they cut off their heads

16     with axes, and they did the same thing with the two other people and the

17     other men came back carrying his rifle above his head and they proceeded

18     in this fashion and then one of them had an empty cigarette pack,

19     Sarajevo Drina --

20        Q.   Sorry, let me stop you here so that we can follow better your

21     account, your story.  Okay.  I just need you to pause, and I will ask you

22     to clarify a few points, then you can carry on with your story, but we

23     need to, first of all, allow the interpreter to interpret your words,

24     otherwise we can not follow you.

25             Now, having said that, let me stop you here and let me ask you a

Page 8873

 1     few questions about what you just said to us.  Okay?  First of all, you

 2     mentioned that at some point Chetniks arrived there?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, what kind of clothes these individuals were wearing?

 5        A.   Camouflage uniform, multicolour one, military.

 6        Q.   Are you able to tell us to which army they belonged to?

 7        A.   Serbian.

 8        Q.   Do you mean the Bosnian Serb Army?

 9        A.   Uzice Corps was there.  They had crossed nearby Nabasta [phoen].

10     There were people from Serbia there, a lot of them.

11        Q.   I'm referring to the people who did the killings at Alija's

12     house, were they -- were they wearing --

13        A.   The uniform was a camouflage one.  I don't know whether they were

14     from Bosnia or from Serbia.  I didn't come close to them.  They were

15     young people, clean shaven, and they had multicoloured camouflage

16     uniform.  I didn't know where they had come from.  I didn't come close to

17     them, and I couldn't tell.

18        Q.   Very well.  Fair enough, Mr. Witness.

19             Secondly, if I can have a moment to stop the transcript and see

20     if I have a moment, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do have a moment, sir.

22             MR. CANNATA:

23        Q.   Sir, you also mentioned you were not alone, but you were with a

24     man by the name of Dzemal Karic?

25        A.   Yes, yes, Dzemal, yes.

Page 8874

 1        Q.   So what did you and Mr. Karic do when the Chetniks, as you

 2     defined them, entered the Cinkara compound?

 3        A.   Well, we hid by the shed up there, and we watched what they were

 4     doing.  We watched from there.

 5        Q.   And what did you observe from your point of view from the shed

 6     where you were hiding?

 7        A.   We saw the Chetnik who was behind us and who chased the people

 8     from the woods.  He had four people in front of him and he took them to

 9     Alija's house, and we watched what they were going to do.  We saw that

10     they put some planks together to resemble a raft, and there was six,

11     seven, maybe up to nine soldiers in a camouflage uniform.  And then the

12     two that were down there, they took two men, they took them by their arms

13     and then the third one grabbed their hair and they put their heads down

14     on rafts and chopped their heads off.  And then they started throwing the

15     heads on a pile and ordered the other one to do the same with the bodies,

16     and then the first man came back and bringing new people and they just

17     kept repeating this.

18             A truck came and then it had a tarpaulin cover and they would

19     kill two men and then kill another two men, and they would pile up the

20     bodies.  And then they started putting hay on top of it, and then the

21     truck drove away and came back again.

22     Dzemal had a pack of Sarajevo Drina cigarettes, and he had a small pen,

23     and he said to me, Why don't you add this up, I can't write anymore.

24     How many are they there?  He said 83. And I knew a lot of (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 8875

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted) him.

 3        Q.   Sir, let me stop you here.  I will need a redaction of page 14,

 4     line 17 and 18, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why?

 6             MR. CANNATA:  Because that name, which is not transcribed but it

 7     will be, I guess, at a later stage, might concur to identify the witness

 8     identity.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On mine --

10             MR. CANNATA:  I see syncrony [sic] problems, Your Honours, I

11     think you --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see that line.  Is it line 19?

13             MR. CANNATA:  Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May that be page 14, either line 17, 18 or 19, can

15     it be redacted, please, where the name appears.  I would like you to

16     clear some of the problems that come from your witness's testimony, you

17     know, and I'll give you an example.  That very part that you are

18     referring to.  He says:

19             "Dzemal had a pack of Sarajevo Drina cigarettes and he had a

20     small pen and he said to me, Why don't you add this up, I can't write

21     anymore, how many are they there?  He said 83."

22             Now, if he is asking how many are they there, it can't be him

23     answering that 83.  Okay.  So can you clear who is asking what and who is

24     answering.

25             MR. CANNATA:

Page 8876

 1        Q.   Sir --

 2        A.   No, you did not understand me right.  It wasn't him counting.  He

 3     just said to me that he wanted me to add up how many people had been

 4     taken away, and he took the cigarette pack and a pencil, and he added up

 5     and he said 83 had been expelled.  And then he had nothing else to write

 6     on.  We stopped counting and the Chetniks continued chasing Muslims; is

 7     it clear now?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is clear except that you now say 83 had been

 9     expelled.  I don't know, what does expelled mean in context?  Because I

10     thought we were talking about people who had been killed and been loaded

11     in a truck.  Now, you don't expel a corpse.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of them kept driving people out

13     of the Cinkara compound to the slaughter site where they killed them,

14     four, five, six, seven at the most.  He kept driving them out to the

15     slaughtering spot.  Just like they slaughter cattle, this is how the

16     Serbian soldiers kept slaughtering the old people, the infirm people, and

17     so on.  Is it clear now?

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Relatively.

19             MR. CANNATA:

20        Q.   Sir, let me remind you of one thing that we need to ask you,

21     okay.  We work by the interpretation, and we do need time to have the

22     interpretation carried out to us, and so, therefore, we need you to speak

23     slowly and possibly to make short statements.  That would make our life

24     much easier in court.  Can you do that?

25        A.   Yes, please.

Page 8877

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, coming back to the question asked by

 2     His Honour Judge Moloto, when you said expelled, do I understand you

 3     correctly that you mean the dead bodies were expelled, were taken out of

 4     the Alija's house through the track; is that what you are saying?

 5        A.   Not from Alija's house.  They were within the Cinkara compound

 6     and then the scaffolding, this raft, it was between Alija's house and

 7     Cinkara.  And then from the corn field, you couldn't see it either from

 8     the Cinkara side or from Alija's house.  I was on the side and this is

 9     how I was able to see.  They were driven out of Cinkara.  They were taken

10     out.  Any way you wish to understand this.  One of them was chasing them,

11     driving them out, and the others were there slaughtering them.  Not from

12     the Alija's house, but from Cinkara.

13        Q.   Now that's clear to me at least, Your Honour.

14             And these people we are talking about, I mean, those who were

15     taken out of the Cinkara, were they civilians?

16        A.   All civilians.

17        Q.   Now, you told us that at some point the -- let me rephrase that.

18             Did you eventually kept count of how many people were killed

19     there?

20        A.   No.  Because my friend added up to 83 and there were several more

21     batches, but we stopped counting.  So there was more than 83.  There were

22     maybe additional two batches, but it became dark soon.

23        Q.   And how did this adding up process work?  How did it add up?

24        A.   Well, it was happening in front of us.  There was just a fence

25     between us.  We were hiding in the grass and they were chasing them,

Page 8878

 1     driving them out and we just used our fingers.  You can count any which

 2     way you want.

 3        Q.   Let me re-ask you the question.  You said that you and your

 4     friend added up to 83 bodies and then you stopped counting.

 5        A.   We didn't count all the time.  First they had the first batch and

 6     there were four them.  My friend took a pen and wrote down four and then

 7     there was five and then there was six, so the smallest batch had four

 8     people and the largest batch had seven people.  He wrote down with a pen

 9     on the cigarette pack the numbers, and then his pen stopped writing and

10     he said, I want to add up how many were driven out altogether.  And he

11     started adding up the figures and the total was 83.

12             We stopped counting.  We stopped writing after that, and they

13     kept on driving people out.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, do you remember what the men doing the

15     killings were dressed like?

16        A.   Camouflage uniforms.  Military clothes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I stopped you a few minutes ago when you were

18     talking about the last batch of people being slaughtered.  Can you start

19     again your account of what happened from this moment on.

20        A.   The last group was not slaughtered.  I recognised (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     All of sudden there was a lot of noise from the slaughtering spot.  All

23     of them came back.  There were seven in that batch, in that group.  They

24     entered Cinkara.  We got up and we went down to the Muslims, to the

25 civilians.  I found (redacted) there, he was holding his child in his arms

Page 8879

 1 and I told him, I thought that you had been killed, you had been slaughtered,

 2     and he said, No, he didn't, An officer took me out, saved me.  He

 3     mentioned the name, but I forgot the name, and this officer came and he

 4     chased the Chetniks away.  He told them, What are you doing to these

 5     people?  And these people were then taken back to Cinkara.  That's what

 6     he told me.

 7             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, sir, first of all --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that that officer

10     had admonished the Chetniks or attacked the Chetniks, could he please

11     confirm that, I don't think that this was recorded.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he admonished them.  We -- he

13     heard noise and (redacted) told us that the officer had admonished the

14   soldiers.  (redacted) even told me his name.  I forgot, but the officer was

15     cross and wanted to know what they were doing with all those people.

16             MR. CANNATA:

17        Q.   Sir, did you see that officer yourself?

18        A.   No, I didn't.  Because as soon as --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO: (redacted).  He didn't see this.

20             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Can I also point

21     Your Honours' attention to another redaction needed.  It is at page 14,

22     line 19 to 20.  Once again, a relative of this witness has been

23     identified.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, while talking about that, there are a few

25     other names that have been mentioned.  You don't want them redacted?

Page 8880

 1             MR. CANNATA:  If I can take advantage of the next break,

 2     Your Honour, to go through the transcript and see whether it would be

 3     safe to have them --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That will be too late.

 5             MR. CANNATA:  That will be too late, I guess.  I kept an eye on

 6     it and I don't believe we need any redaction.  There's only --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When he first mentioned his brother-in-law, the

 8     brother-in-law's name was spelled starting with an H, and the next time

 9     he mentioned it, it started with an R.  And I'm not quite sure what is

10     happening.

11             MR. CANNATA:  I think it might have been corrected meanwhile.  I

12     may be wrong, are we talking about the same page, 14, line 19.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  May we then, for the sake of precaution, we

14     have got only four minutes to break, can all those pages where those

15     names are mentioned please be redacted, Madam Registrar.

16             Okay, you may proceed, sir.

17             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Sir, let me ask you a follow-up question --

19             MR. CANNATA:  Actually, can we go into private session.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are in open session.  May the Chamber please

21     move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8881

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

10             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, just to find out what the time-frame

11     will be for this session --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just so that we go back to normal time, we'll have

13     to break at --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the presiding Judge, please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Just so we go back to normal time, I'm

16     going to suggest we break at half past 3 and come back at 4.00.

17             MR. CANNATA:  I think that will be a convenient time then,

18     Your Honour, before I move to the next --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can't use those three minutes remaining?

20             MR. CANNATA:  I can, yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

22             MR. CANNATA:

23        Q.   Sir, what -- after -- when you -- okay.  Let me rephrase the

24     question.  You told us that once the killings have stopped, you went to

25     see somebody at Cinkara, the survivors at Cinkara factory.  What happened

Page 8882

 1     to those who committed the killings?  What happened to them?

 2        A.   They disappeared.  They didn't come to where we were at Cinkara.

 3     As to where they went, I don't know.  But there were others in Cinkara.

 4     They were just walking around.

 5        Q.   And can you tell us what these others -- other individuals were

 6     wearing at the time?

 7        A.   Camouflage uniforms as well.  Military camouflage uniforms.

 8        Q.   Same camouflage uniforms as those who committed the killings?  If

 9     you know.

10        A.   Yes, same.  Yes.

11             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much.  Your Honour, I know that I

12     didn't use all my three minutes, but, before I move to my next topic, I

13     think it would be a convenient time.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.  Court

15     adjourned.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.28 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

19             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  Can I have doc

20     ID 0051-0346 on the e-court, please.

21        Q.   Sir, have you brought your reading glasses today with you?

22        A.   Yes.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Reading glasses?

24             MR. CANNATA:  Reading glasses, yes.

25                      [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 8883

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm told that under that number there are two

 2     documents.  One is the witness's statement and some other document.

 3     Which one do you want?

 4             MR. CANNATA:  I'm looking for the photograph, and to be precise,

 5     the witness statement, I think, is 0346 letter A.  But anyway, I'm

 6     looking for the photo, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Sir, can you look at your monitor and tell me whether you see a

 8     photo there?

 9        A.   Yes, I can see Alija's shed where I was.  And I can see it even

10     without my reading glasses.

11        Q.   And just to be perfectly clear, is that the shed where you were

12     hiding while observing the killings taking place?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much, sir.  Can I -- I am sorry,

15     Your Honour.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MR. CANNATA:

18        Q.   Sir, the Usher will provide you with a pen, and I would like you

19     to mark, if you can, on that picture where you were hiding behind the

20     shed, roughly.

21        A.   I was here.

22             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much, sir.  That's enough.  Can I

23     tender this document into exhibit, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

25     please be given an exhibit number.  Do you want it under seal, sir, or do

Page 8884

 1     you want it just like that?

 2             MR. CANNATA:  I'll have it under seal, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under seal, ma'am.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P02687, under

 5     seal.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MR. CANNATA:  I'm reminded that, for clarity of the record, I

 8     would like to state that the X marked by the witness indicated where he

 9     was standing at --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where he was hiding.

11             MR. CANNATA:  Yes, where he was hiding.

12             Can I now have doc ID 0041-3588.

13        Q.   Sir, do you see the picture here in front of you?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   Do you see the -- Alija's house?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't think that's how you should ask the

17     question.  You should ask him what is it he sees.

18             MR. CANNATA:  I'll rephrase the question, Your Honour.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MR. CANNATA:

22        Q.   Sir, can you tell us what you see in this picture?

23        A.   I wouldn't say that this is Alija's house.  Alija's house is more

24     to this side.  And this is Cinkara.  On the left-hand side there was a

25     shed, and on the left there were corn fields.  The fence was broken.  And

Page 8885

 1     through the fence you could see the corn fields, and left to the corn

 2     fields there was Alija's house.  And this seems to be below Cinkara.

 3     There's asphalt, I'm not clear what it is, what this is.  It should be

 4     left to the Cinkara.  I'm really not clear what I see here.

 5             There should be a broken fence here where you can go through

 6     the -- to the corn field.  A shed is to the left, Cinkara is to this side

 7     here, and Alija's house is even further to the left.

 8             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, sir.  Let me then show you another

 9     picture.  Maybe it could be of assistance to you.  It's doc ID --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to raise prematurely,

12     but I believe for the record, this photo should be admitted into evidence

13     and it should also be stated that the witness was pointing with his left

14     hand the directions on -- with regard to this photo.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His house is to the left from

16     Cinkara.

17             MR. CANNATA:  I was about to deal with this document after the

18     next document I called, so if I can carry on with my own examination, I

19     would be grateful.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may do so, sir.

21             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much.

22             Now, can I have -- is the document that I called on the screen?

23     No.  Can I have document ID 0041-3587.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, counsel.

Page 8886

 1             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Sir, can you tell us what you see in this picture?  Do you

 3     recognise anything here?  If you can.

 4        A.   The only thing I recognise is the Cinkara, and I can see a fence,

 5     but it should be broken on this side, but again, I'm not clear about the

 6     thicket here.  Alija's house is on the left, above the house is the

 7     property border, and I don't know where the shed is.  Can you bring back

 8     the photo depicting the shed?  This is the Cinkara, and to the left is

 9     Alija's house, but I can't see it in this photo.  It should not be

10     covered by anything, so Alija's house, I can't see it.  But again I can

11     see the broken fence.  I'm really not clear what I'm seeing in this

12     photo.

13        Q.   Sir, that will be enough.  You say that you see the broken fence.

14     Can you, again, mark it with the pen and an X.  Thank you.

15        A.   This is the broken fence here.  Here you can see where the fence

16     is broken and through here you could get to Alija's house.  Through here.

17        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

18        A.   This is where it was broken.

19        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

20             MR. CANNATA:  And for the record, the witness marked where the

21     fence was broken.  Can I tender this document into evidence, under seal,

22     Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness also said he can see the Cinkara.

24     Don't you want him to mark the Cinkara?

25             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 8887

 1        Q.   Sir, are you able to mark in this picture the Cinkara?

 2        A.   The Cinkara should be here, and these trucks are outside of the

 3     Cinkara perimeter.  Cinkara should be here, more towards me.  What can I

 4     see here?  Some iron.  This is where the Cinkara should be located.

 5        Q.   Can you mark it with the letter A, if you can.

 6        A.   Well, this is the Cinkara here.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 8     please be given an exhibit number, under seal.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2688, under

10     seal.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. CANNATA:

13        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  Now, let me take you back to what

14     happened on the -- on the -- on July 1995.  Now --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do that, you promised that you were

16     going to go back to document ID 0041-3588 once you have guided the

17     witness through this one.  Are you still going to come back to it?

18             MR. CANNATA:  May I have a moment to consult, Your Honour?  Thank

19     you.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MR. CANNATA:  All right.  Let's see.  Can I have that document

22     again, which is doc ID 0041-3588.

23        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you to take again and look at the photo and

24     tell me whether --

25        A.   What we can see here is the perimeter of the Cinkara where you

Page 8888

 1     can see the -- this object.  This is the Cinkara.  And now I can't see

 2     the broken fence.  I was there only once under the [indiscernible], and I

 3     don't remember it well.  And from it there is the Cinkara, to the left

 4     you went through the fence, through the corn field towards Alija's house.

 5     Here is where the asphalt is, where is the Cinkara, then the fence, the

 6     corn fields, the fence was broken, on the left-hand side; and then there

 7     was the corn field, there was the massacre here, and Alija's house was on

 8     the left.  And this is the Cinkara, but I can't see the broken fence

 9     which led towards Alija's house, and it was, indeed, broken.

10        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  Now, you said this is the Cinkara.

11     Can you mark it in this photo?

12        A.   Yes, you can see all the materials that are piled up here in the

13     Cinkara.  This object, the materials that are piled up, this is within

14     the perimeter of the Cinkara.  That's what I've been telling you.  The

15     scaffolding here is also the Cinkara, and this is also the Cinkara.

16     Everything is Cinkara here.

17             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much, sir.  Now, for the record, all

18     the markings marked by the witness do represent what the Cinkara is in

19     this picture.  May I tender this document into evidence under seal,

20     Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Except that the marking of the pile is pile of the

22     things that are on the Cinkara.  The document is admitted into evidence.

23     May it please be given an exhibit number, under seal.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2689, under

25     seal.

Page 8889

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. CANNATA:

 3        Q.   Sir, did you at some point in time during the morning of 13th

 4     July, 1995, manage to leave Potocari?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And how did you manage to do that?

 7        A.   The massacre lasted all night.  Zoran Dimitrijevic told me to

 8     spend the night there, everything from Cinkara across the asphalt in the

 9     perimeter of the transport firms.  Zoran Dimitrijevic from Bratunac told

10     me to go to the centre of that transport company because there would

11     be -- and we all crossed over.  The Cinkara remained empty.  There was

12     blood all over the place.  We went to the Cinkara.  All the night there

13     were rapes going on, slaughter, and then it dawned and I --

14        Q.   Sir.

15        A.   -- went down there to wash my face in the river.

16        Q.   Sir, please.  Let me repeat again what I asked you before.  Now,

17     I asked you a specific question.  What I'm asking you to do is two things

18     actually:  Listen to my question and answer to my questions.  My

19     questions was about the morning of the 13th and the way you managed to

20     leave Potocari; and secondly, when answering my questions, please speak

21     slowly and preferably make short sentences.  Okay?

22        A.   It dawned in the morning.  I set out.  There was a rope there.

23     The Serb Army was separating people.  They lifted the rope and then they

24     separated the men.  Then they tightened the rope.  I ducked under the

25     rope, I went through, nobody stopped me, and I got on a bus.

Page 8890

 1        Q.   What happened then when you got into the bus, on to the bus?

 2        A.   The driver waited for the bus to be full, and when the bus was

 3     full we started moving towards Bratunac down there.

 4             MR. CANNATA:  Can we please move into private session,

 5     Your Honour, briefly.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8891

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  May I just ask one little

 8     question.  Sir, who were in the bus apart from yourself?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Women and children.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were you the only adult male in the bus?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was also Adem Mekranic

12     and Mehmed Zuhric as well.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You may proceed, counsel.

14             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Was Luke the final stop of your travel?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And from Luke, did you manage to get to the territory controlled

18     by the BiH Army?

19        A.   Three to 4 kilometres from there, there were Serbs.  We went all

20     the way to the Serbian Army controlled area to the tunnel and that's

21     where our own people took us over.

22             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, if I may have a second to consult

23     again.  Thank you very much.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MR. CANNATA:

Page 8892

 1        Q.   Sir, how did you manage to get through the Serbian controlled

 2     area?

 3        A.   The Serbian Army tried to get on the bus, but Raco wouldn't let

 4     them.  And they somehow made him, they didn't want to force their way.

 5        Q.   Is there anything that Raco said to any particular individual

 6     about you?

 7        A.   He only asked me where my sons were, and I told them that they

 8     had left across the woods.  Then he said, That's not good.  The Serbian

 9     Army set up ambushes, that they would be killed, and that there is

10     killing going on among the Muslims themselves.  And he only wished that

11     they were able to cross the woods alive.

12        Q.   But, sir, let me -- maybe there was an interpretation or

13     something that -- a glitch.  But I asked you whether is there anything

14     that Raco said to somebody else about you?  Not to you, it's about you,

15     to let you through the Serb territory?

16        A.   When we arrived in Luke, when we arrived in Luke, when we got off

17     the bus, Raco stood up and told me to stand up myself.  He took out a

18     litre of cognac and two kinds of food, and he said, Take these, put it in

19     some woman's bag.  If I thought I'd find you here, I would have some

20     German marks on me to give you.  I only have Serb marks and they won't do

21     you any good.

22             There was a man standing by the door wearing a camouflage uniform

23     and some markings of an officer, and Raco told him, Vojvoda, allow our

24     colleague to go through the ranks of your army, he says, He will, nobody

25     will touch him, then I started walking and Vojvoda asked me to escort a

Page 8893

 1     sick woman.  She couldn't walk herself -- on her own and I helped her

 2     walk.  That's how it was.

 3        Q.   And did you help her through the BiH controlled territory?

 4        A.   I did, yes.

 5        Q.   And, sir, coming back to your evidence, the officer is that Raco

 6     spoke to, what army, as far as you can tell, did he belong to?

 7        A.   The Serb Army.

 8             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much, sir.  I have no further

 9     questions.  That completes my direct examination.  Thank you very much.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Cannata.

11             Mr. Lukic.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   I'm Novak Lukic, and I'm going to have some questions for you.

16        A.   Go ahead.

17        Q.   I would just kindly ask you to answer as slowly as possible and

18     wait a little bit after my question, that will give you time to think.

19     Everything needs to be translated really well.  I'm also going to try to

20     speak slowly.  Please wait a little bit.  After my question, I'll do the

21     same after your answer, sir.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think we should move into private

23     session just for a brief moment, if we may.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

25                           [Private session]

Page 8894











11 Page 8894 redacted. Private session.















Page 8895











11 Page 8895 redacted. Private session.















Page 8896

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do you remember when you gave your first statement, I'm not going

14     to give any more details about when and to whom because we are in open

15     session, that that statement was taken in such a way that you gave your

16     story to the inspector and then he wrote it down, or rather, dictated it?

17        A.   Do you mean the one in Milici?

18        Q.   Just a second.  No, I mean the first statement.  You don't need

19     to tell me where it was, but the first statement you gave after the

20     events in Srebrenica.

21        A.   To the SUP representatives in Tuzla.  Yes, I remember.  There

22     were a lot of us there in that room.  There were five of us and a girl

23     was there, and I think that they were drunk.  And all of them started

24     putting questions and when they asked me to sign, then they read it out

25     for me first.  But he didn't even put my year of birth there.

Page 8897

 1        Q.   Just a minute.  I'm asking you very specifically, that statement,

 2     when you gave it, was it given in such a way that inspector put questions

 3     to you, you replied, and then he dictated the record to the typist?

 4        A.   No, no.  He wrote it down on a simple piece of paper.  There were

 5     five or six of us there.  And then when he read out to me, it was not

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  We will have to do some redacting,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you want redacted, Mr. Lukic?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] He gave his personal information

12     here, page 36, line 13.  If you don't object to that remaining there, I

13     don't have a problem with it.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May we have that redacted, Madam Registrar,

15     please.

16             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   So there before him you signed the statement?

19        A.   Yes.  He told me --

20        Q.   No, no, I'm asking you this first, just to be as specific as

21     possible.  Did you sign the statement there in front of him?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, this statement that was before you, and you said that you

24     had problems with how it was compiled?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8898

 1        Q.   Did he dictate the statement to a woman, a typist, who was typing

 2     there?

 3        A.   No, there was no typist there.

 4        Q.   But what you signed was typed on a typewriter?

 5        A.   No, the inspector who questioned me, he wrote down my answers on

 6     a plain piece of paper.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go back into

 8     private session.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8899











11 Pages 8899-8901 redacted. Private session.















Page 8902

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, for the record, we are back in open

15     session.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Just one more question to explore things that happened in the

19     past.  I assume that you served in the Yugoslav People's Army a long time

20     ago?

21        A.   Yes, in 1955 and 1956.

22        Q.   And following that, you were in reserve forces?

23        A.   No.  I was a member of the Auto Unit in the army and nobody ever

24     called me up.

25        Q.   All right.  But your sons had wartime assignments?

Page 8903

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And your sons also served in the JNA?

 3        A.   Yes, they did.

 4        Q.   Now, those two nights and two days while you were in

 5     Srebrenica -- rather, in Potocari, I apologise, I understood that you

 6     were on the 12th in the main area of Cinkara, in the main compound?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   But I also understood that you were able to leave the Cinkara

 9     compound and move about?

10        A.   Yes, up until 10.00, and then at 10.00, they put the ropes around

11     and they said, Don't go anywhere, the Serb Army is around.

12        Q.   You said that at some point later in the afternoon before this

13     incident happened that people went out into a meadow in front of Cinkara?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.  It was above the shed or the stable.

15        Q.   So it is outside of the compound itself?

16        A.   Yes, yes, correct.

17        Q.   You said that you found yourself in that area, that you showed on

18     the photograph near Alija's house.  You had fled there from Cinkara?

19        A.   Well, when I was above the stable and there were people further

20     up from me and then the Chetniks came from above and they all rushed

21     (redacted)  And the

22     rest of the people, they all went down to Cinkara.

23        Q.   In your first statement that you gave -- just a bit of patience

24     please and we will have it on our screens.  These people that were

25     executed in that incident in front of Alija's house, you said that some

Page 8904

 1     of them were familiar to you by sight?

 2        A.   Yes, and I don't remember their names.

 3        Q.   You also stated this at the police station?

 4        A.   Most likely, but I can't remember, it was a long time ago.

 5        Q.   Did anybody at the police station or did anybody from the OTP

 6     show to you photographs of the missing people so that you could try to

 7     recognise some of them among those photographs?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Did the OTP investigators suggest to you to go with them to the

10     site, to the actual location, to show it to them there?

11        A.   No, they didn't.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will have to go into private

13     session again.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please go into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8905











11 Pages 8905-8908 redacted. Private session.















Page 8909

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may say so now in open

13     session, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I've finished my cross-examination

15     and I would like to thank the witness.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  In open session, Mr. Cannata

17     do you have any re-examination.

18             MR. CANNATA:  Yes, one minor point, but I need to do that in

19     private session.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)  

Page 8910











11 Page 8910 redacted. Private session.















Page 8911

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 9             Just to repeat what you said, to say thank you very much, sir.

10     This brings us to the end of your testimony.  You are now released to go

11     home.  Thank you so much for coming to testify at the Tribunal.  You may

12     now stand down and please travel well back home.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And I'd like to thank

14     you as well.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Shall we be in private session for the witness to

16     leave the court?

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted) 

Page 8912

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 4             Mr. Cannata.

 5             MR. CANNATA:  I think we have no other witnesses for today,

 6     Your Honour.  I think next witness is scheduled for next week, but I

 7     leave Mr. Harmon to address the --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.  I recognise you, Mr. Lukic, I'll come

 9     back to you.

10             Mr. Harmon.

11             MR. HARMON:  I'm informed, Your Honour, there are no additional

12     witnesses this week and the next witness will be scheduled for Monday.

13     That's what I had been informed.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you had something to say.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to use the next couple

16     of minutes to tender into evidence some document that have just recently

17     been translated and also a document that I owe you from last week.  Maybe

18     we could do it in the next five minutes, if you don't mind.

19             The first document is D55 MFI.  The translation is marked as

20     1D00-8906.  And I would like it to be tendered into evidence and not to

21     be marked for identification any more.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

23             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I've not seen the translation yet.

24     I've not been provided with a copy of it.  So at this point, I would ask

25     that it remain MFI'd, and I will, of course, look at it very quickly and

Page 8913

 1     obviously if it's -- there are no problems, I have no objection to the

 2     MFI being removed.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We sent it ten days ago, but I

 4     understand Mr. Harmon's objection.  I'm going to give it the numbers of

 5     the documents.  D55, D57, I'm not going to give you the e-court numbers.

 6     D76, D85, and D42.

 7             I don't know if Mr. Harmon can check the translation based on

 8     these numbers or does he need any additional information, but I would not

 9     like to burden the Trial Chamber any further.  I will clear it up with

10     Mr. Harmon.  There's just one document that is contestable still, but for

11     that document we have to go into private session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, now, all these, are these all MFI'd?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Well, so what are you saying?  Are you

15     saying --

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We merged all the English

17     translations, and the lack of translation was the only reason why they

18     were MFI'd.  Now that we have the official translation, Mr. Harmon can

19     check those and then they can be tendered into evidence.  There is just

20     one document, if you remember, which was offered last week, but for that

21     document to be discussed we have to go into private session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, fine.  Mr. Harmon, you will tell us next

23     week whether you have seen the translations and then we can remove the

24     MFI at the time.

25             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

Page 8914

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  May the Chamber please move

 2     into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

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Page 8915

 1   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back into open session.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Harmon, it looks like we are losing a lot of time with

12     postponements as a result of lack of witnesses, and last week I spoke to

13     the team to try and ask how much time we have lost by way of this, and I

14     was surprised and actually shocked to find that we have lost more hours

15     than we have spent in court.  I won't give you the numbers but those are

16     the number that I got that the postponement time is more than the time we

17     have spent in court.

18             Is there a way we can solve this problem?

19             MR. HARMON:  I need to get back to you on that, Your Honour.  I'm

20     not sure there is --  we have a handful of witnesses that remain.  We

21     have and application before the Court for another witness, and we'll be

22     making one additional application.  So I cannot give you a solution as I

23     stand here now.

24             What I can tell you is that we will work, you know, consciously

25     quite frankly, to get these witnesses here as soon as possible.  Many of

Page 8916

 1     the problems that exist, for example, there are travel document problems

 2     with the witness, I was told, for Monday.  So while we had him scheduled,

 3     there appear to be some difficulties in securing the proper travel

 4     documents.  I have no control over that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It all depends on how much in advance of the

 6     witness testifying all these arrangements are made.  It's a logistical

 7     problem which needs proper planning.

 8             MR. HARMON:  I agree with that, Your Honour.  And the recent

 9     problems, not the past problems, we've had a significant number of past

10     problems that relate to that, most recent problems are relating to

11     witnesses who have been generated as a result of the new agreement.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought those are the three --

13             MR. HARMON:  There are three and then there's been problems in

14     terms of securing the attendance of a witness, I believe he goes by the

15     pseudonym MP-11, where we had to go to foreign governments to attempt to

16     secure a person's attendance.  He had been scheduled many times in the

17     past.

18             I'm not trying to make excuses, Your Honour.  I've found this

19     trial to be exceptionally frustrating in securing the attendance of

20     witnesses and travel difficulties with witnesses in this case.  I can't

21     offer any explanations.  I can't -- I'm not here to offer excuses.  I can

22     only offer my sincere undertaking that we will attempt to get them here

23     as quickly as we can and as efficiently as we can.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

25             Okay.  We'll then stand adjourned to next Monday, at 2.15 in the

Page 8917

 1     afternoon.  Courtroom II.  Court adjourned.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.12 p.m.

 3                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of

 4                           September, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.