Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9621

 1                           Wednesday, 4 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

12     today, starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning counsel,

14     everyone in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Lorna Bolton and Carmela Javier

15     for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And for the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning to everyone in the courtroom.  Appearing for Mr. Perisic today,

19     Ms. Tina Drolec; Chad Mair; our intern, Alex Fielding; and Novak Lukic,

20     counsel.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

22             Good morning, Mr. Krayishnik.  Just to remind you that you are

23     still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your

24     testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the

25     truth.

Page 9622

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  May the record show in -- I

 3     think we didn't say so yesterday, that we are still sitting pursuant to

 4     Rule 15 bis and we have been doing so since Monday.  At least for this

 5     week.

 6             Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           WITNESS:  NED KRAYISHNIK [Resumed]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:  [Continued]

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krayishnik, I don't know if your head set is

11     set to Serbian?

12        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, they are.  I can hear you.

13        Q.   All right.  Then we'll continue as yesterday with the same

14     caution, please wait a few seconds after my question.  Please follow the

15     text on the screen.  When you see the typing has finished, you can start

16     with your answer.

17             I stopped yesterday because Ms. Bolton objected to my presenting

18     a prior statement of the witness, that's where we left off.  I was about

19     to present the witness an answer he gave to the Prosecution in his first

20     interview.  Let me just refresh your memory a little.

21             Yesterday, we discussed the fact that in your first interview,

22     you had not had the opportunity to review all the notes and photographs

23     and video footage that you saw before the second interview, and in the

24     first interview, I mean in August this year, you said certain things that

25     you later corrected, things that you stated to the best of your

Page 9623

 1     recollection based only on your memory.  And then you said on that

 2     occasion you did not travel with Colonel Salapura and then you corrected

 3     that later.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will now read out part of this

 5     answer, Your Honours.  I will be reading this part that begins with this

 6     page in line 9, and in English it begins in line 20.  Ms. Bolton's

 7     question reads --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Lukic, when you say beginning with this

 9     page, which page?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's the page, to be precise, in

11     B/C/S 15, and in English it's page 21.  I'm starting to read from

12     line 20.  We will also later turn the page.

13        Q.   So, do you see in English line 18, Ms. Bolton's question?  It's

14     in front of you, Witness.  The transcript reads --

15        A.   [Interpretation] I am sorry, I don't see this number 18.

16        Q.   In Serbian it's line 9.  I will read, you don't need to look at

17     the screen.

18             "Q.  We were talking earlier about some of the people you met

19     over there and your impressions of them.  Do you recall meeting a Serbian

20     general called Momcilo Perisic?"

21             Your answer:

22             "Yes, I met him once.

23             "Q.  Where was that?"

24             Your answer:

25             "That was in the headquarters with Mladic, yes, but only during

Page 9624

 1     the lunch hour, I think, and we had lunch there and we were on our way

 2     down to Pale.

 3             "Q.  Did you speak much with him or ...?"

 4             Your answer:

 5             "No, actually I didn't talk to him at all.  They were talking.

 6     They were sitting," and then something unintelligible, "and they were

 7     able to -- Ratko and all these important officers were behind our backs.

 8     I didn't have any conversation directly with them. "

 9             So this is a passage from the first statement you gave to

10     Ms. Bolton in August, when you had not had the opportunity to see the

11     photographs that later refreshed your memory; correct?

12        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

13        Q.   And during that first interview with Ms. Bolton --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Just one correction.  Obviously my friend is reading

16     from the B/C/S version and it's being translated into Court.  The

17     original interview was in English, and the wording of what was said about

18     Ratko Mladic was slightly different in the actual English version.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It was important, not -- "big" not "important."

20             MS. BOLTON:  No, it was also:  "... and Ratko and all those big,"

21     that was different, "army officers were all at our back."  So it's a

22     little different than:  "They were sitting with their backs to us."

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, these are the problems we often

25     have here.  I agree with Ms. Bolton, the official version is in English.

Page 9625

 1     I read the official, or rather, the draft translation.

 2        Q.   So when you saw these photographs, you talked to Ms. Bolton again

 3     a month later in September, that's what I call the second interview, and

 4     when you saw the photographs, you remembered exactly how you were sitting

 5     and then you made the corrections you told us about yesterday; correct?

 6        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

 7        Q.   Yesterday, asked by Ms. Bolton on page 9573, line 20 of the draft

 8     transcript of yesterday's session --

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's page 43, line 16, if the

10     Judges are looking at the same.

11        Q.   You said that you didn't remember who Perisic was accompanied by

12     when you first saw him outside that facility in Crna Rijeka; is that what

13     you said to Ms. Bolton?

14        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

15        Q.   And then Ms. Bolton read out to you yesterday in court part of

16     your statement of September when, on page 9575, line 25, you said he was

17     with General Mladic and General Gvero.  Do you remember saying that

18     yesterday?

19        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

20        Q.   Now, this statement of September 2009 that Ms. Bolton read out to

21     you, is not a statement that you gave to just anyone ten years ago, you

22     gave it less than two months ago?

23        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

24        Q.   And I noticed that speaking to the Court yesterday, you had

25     forgotten what you had said to the Prosecutor two months ago, and the

Page 9626

 1     Prosecutor had to remind you; right?

 2        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

 3        Q.   Could that have happened maybe because after 14 years you don't

 4     remember all these details what exactly happened, where you were, who

 5     exactly you talked to, what was said?

 6        A.   [Interpretation] That is true.  That happened a long time ago.

 7     Since then I have not been thinking about it.  I haven't revisited that.

 8     I did not imagine that I would have to go back to these events in my life

 9     that I had mostly forgotten.

10        Q.   These days you have been shown several video-clips, I'm talking

11     only about what was done in the courtroom, and you were shown them at

12     least on two occasions -- two more occasions, first in September, and

13     then during proofing here in The Hague?

14        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

15        Q.   These video-clips were shown to you and you were asked to say to

16     the best of your recollection whether during those days there had been

17     any discussion about Srebrenica and the military operation around

18     Srebrenica.  The Prosecutor asked you that; correct?

19        A.   [Interpretation ] Yes.

20        Q.   And we saw yesterday when this video footage was shown to you of

21     17 July 1995 in Han Pijesak --

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me remind everyone that's the

23     video-clip when Mladic is reading the list, the long list of names of

24     donors.

25        Q.   At one point - that's page 12 of P2807, that's B/C/S transcript -

Page 9627

 1     he mentions that that was the day of the liberation of Srebrenica, the

 2     17 of July, and he mentions the painter Milic od Macve?

 3        A.   [Interpretation] I don't remember the reference to Milic od Macve

 4     or anything like that but I -- yes, that's the -- that is the place.

 5        Q.   This event, the liberation of Srebrenica, is also mentioned in

 6     that video footage that shows your visit with Krajisnik and Karadzic of

 7     the 18th of July.  One of the speakers then says they realise very well

 8     how important that event is, the liberation of Srebrenica, and how these

 9     people, Krajisnik and Karadzic, must be busy with all these activities.

10        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

11        Q.   These two video-clips were shown to you both in September, in

12     your second interview with Ms. Bolton, and here in The Hague over the

13     weekend?

14        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

15        Q.   And yesterday, on page 46 of the draft unrevised transcript, I

16     couldn't identify it in the official one, Ms. Bolton read out to you part

17     of your statement of September 2009 where you said that Mr. Mladic and

18     Mr. Gvero, during this encounter outside that facility in Han Pijesak,

19     sitting on those benches, were talking about Srebrenica in Perisic's

20     presence.  Do you remember the Prosecutor reading that passage to you

21     yesterday?

22        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

23        Q.   However, Ms. Bolton did not read out to you the proofing note of

24     the 1st of November.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now place on the screen the

Page 9628

 1     document marked OTP Info Report 01112229.  That's how it's marked in

 2     e-court.  Those are the notes.  Just a second.  Ms. Drolec is helping us

 3     out as Case Manager today, to the best of her ability.  I beg the Court's

 4     indulgence.

 5        Q.   Before we get this document on the screen, during the interview

 6     Ms. Bolton had with you on the 1st of November, she made a note and you

 7     signed it.  I'd like it to read out to you what the note says.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.  Can we call it up on

 9     the screen when we get the document.

10        Q.   You see here in the third paragraph, that's the note made by

11     Ms. Bolton:

12             "[In English] Contrary to his information report of

13     18 September 2009 and his audio interview on the 9th of August 2009,

14     today, the witness advised that he is not sure that the conversation

15     about Srebrenica on 18th of July took place at the picnic area.  It may

16     have taken place in the boardroom."

17             [Interpretation] Now, this is the note made by Ms. Bolton just a

18     few days ago.  She showed you that interview to which she referred

19     yesterday in the courtroom and this note says that a few days ago you

20     were not sure whether Srebrenica was discussed at all while they were

21     sitting on those benches; correct?

22        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

23        Q.   So regardless of the fact that she presented to you your

24     interview of September 2009 where you said that you had thought

25     Srebrenica was discussed in that area with benches, where the photographs

Page 9629

 1     were made, just a few days ago, you told her you were not sure after all?

 2        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.  I said that Madam Bolton reminded me that

 3     I signed the document, and I said I have a much better recollection of

 4     things that happened 20 or 30 years ago than things that happened two

 5     weeks or a month ago.  And I feel that in my work; if I don't make a note

 6     of something, I forget it.

 7             That's why I keep in my cell phone a reminder of all the things I

 8     have to do, on which day, in order not to forget, because I did begin to

 9     forget.  I don't know if it's age, probably is.

10        Q.   You probably realise, Witness, that facts are very important to

11     us here, and if you say that something happened, it's very important that

12     you stand by it.  And if you don't remember something, it's better to

13     say, I don't remember it.  That's very important in these proceedings.

14     And I'm asking you once again, let's try to be as precise as possible.

15     Do you remember --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, I thought my -- before my friend moves on, I

18     just want to correct part of the question that my friend asked at

19     lines 10 to 13 of the transcript.  He suggested there that what the

20     witness said in his September 2009 statement was that he thought there

21     had been discussion of Srebrenica, and the portion of the statement I put

22     to him did not indicate -- was not equivocal, it indicated there was

23     discussion.  There was no use of the word that he "thought" it was

24     discussed.  So just indicating that I object to the suggestion that he

25     was equivocal in his -- in paragraph 12 of that statement.

Page 9630

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me understand you.  You are objecting to the

 2     use of the word "thought"?

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   In your interview of September 2009 that Ms. Bolton read out

 7     yesterday you said that during that encounter, and let's be precise, I'm

 8     interested in the period when Mr. Perisic was present, that was 18 July,

 9     on the benches outside the building known as Javor.  You said Mladic and

10     Gvero discussed Srebrenica.  That's written in paragraph 12 of the

11     statement Ms. Bolton presented to you not only yesterday but during

12     proofing a few days ago?

13        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

14        Q.   And then you said to Ms. Bolton what I just read out, that you

15     don't remember whether there was a discussion of Srebrenica on the

16     benches or perhaps it was discussed in the boardroom?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated].

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You saw on video that Srebrenica was mentioned in that room?

21        A.   [Interpretation] Correct.

22        Q.   I'll ask you to answer with a yes, no, maybe, or I don't

23     remember.  At the time when you were sitting with Mr. Perisic --

24             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

Page 9631

 1             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, I don't think it's appropriate for my

 2     friend to be telling the witness how he has to answer a question.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think I only said something that is

 5     frequently said in courtrooms, that there are three answers to be

 6     expected from the witness.  I don't see anything unusual about it.  We

 7     always did that, especially when we wanted the witness to be concise.  I

 8     really don't see a problem with telling the witness that he can answer

 9     yes, no, I don't know, or I don't remember.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you remember that at that time when you were sitting with

13     Mr. Perisic you heard discussion of Srebrenica?  Yes, no, I don't

14     remember, or I don't know.

15        A.   [Interpretation] When I was sitting with General Perisic and

16     talked, I don't remember that we discussed, the two of us, I don't

17     remember we discussed Srebrenica.

18        Q.   All right.  In view of what you had said to Ms. Bolton that I

19     just read out --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Krayishnik, the question to you was:

21             "When I was sitting with General Perisic and talked, I don't

22     remember" -- I beg your pardon.  "Do you remember that at that time when

23     you were sitting with Mr. Perisic you heard discussion of Srebrenica?"

24             Now, hearing a discussion of Srebrenica is one thing; you

25     discussing with Mr. Perisic is another.  The question is not whether you

Page 9632

 1     did discuss with Mr. Perisic.  Did you hear a discussion about Srebrenica

 2     while you were sitting there, or don't you remember?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understood your

 4     question but the question that was asked of me was whether I discussed

 5     with Mr. Perisic, and I answered I don't remember whether -- I don't

 6     remember that we discussed it, General Perisic and I.  As to conversation

 7     around us --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Look at page 10, line 24.  Question by Mr. Lukic.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question in Serbian or in

10     English?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's in English, sir.  The transcript before you

12     is in English.

13             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page 10, line 24.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need assistance to find my way.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I maybe read it in English?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I read it in English.  He doesn't -- I would

18     like him to see it himself because I read it out.  He doesn't ...

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember whether I heard

20     conversation, when I was sitting with Mr. Perisic, about Srebrenica.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Krayishnik.  Thank you so much.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Krayishnik, I won't take much longer, but I have to ask you a

24     few more questions that follow from your evidence yesterday.  You can't

25     remember with certainty when, on the 17th of July, you arrived at

Page 9633

 1     Han Pijesak.  You said yesterday -- you said so yesterday on page 9538,

 2     line 20, of yesterday's transcript.

 3        A.   [Interpretation] Right.

 4        Q.   You don't know who organised vehicles for that journey, do you?

 5        A.   [Interpretation] I don't.

 6        Q.   Neither do you know whether General Mladic mentioned Srebrenica

 7     several times -- several times those days when you were with him?  That's

 8     on page 9551, line 1.

 9        A.   [Interpretation] Correct.

10        Q.   You don't remember what part of day it was, that footage when

11     your group was handing over the medication and spare parts for cars in

12     Crna Rijeka?

13        A.   [Interpretation] I don't remember what time it was.

14        Q.   It was on the 18th of July.  That's not in dispute.  But you said

15     yesterday, on page 9557, line 8, that you don't know what part of day it

16     was?

17        A.   [Interpretation] Right.

18        Q.   And you can't remember either whether this video-clip about the

19     hand-over of medication and spare parts was before or after your

20     encounter with Mr. Perisic?

21        A.   [Interpretation] That's right.

22        Q.   You can't remember where you spent that night of the

23     17th of July, you said that on 9557, line 17.  You don't know where

24     exactly in the area of Han Pijesak or Crna Rijeka.  Your recollection of

25     that day, 18 of July, 1995, is generally poor.  It was 14 years ago and

Page 9634

 1     you can't remember much except what was shown you on photographs and

 2     video footage --

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, is my friend testifying about indicating that

 4     his memory is generally poor.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your friend's testifying, did you say?

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I think my friend is testifying.  He can ask a

 7     question if his memory is generally poor, but to be making the statement

 8     as part of his questions -- he says:

 9             "Your recollection of that day, 18 July, is generally poor," and

10     then he goes on with a second question.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.  That is the problem with compound

12     questions, with many sentences in one question.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, but before that, after my

14     question on page 13, line 12, the witness's answer has not been recorded.

15     No, sorry.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness's answer has not been recorded

17     precisely because Madam Bolton objected.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I apologise.

19        Q.   Witness, apart from what you saw on photographs and video about

20     the 18th of July, you can't remember other details because it was a long

21     time ago and you don't have a good memory of that period long ago?

22        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honour, I'd like to show

24     the witness another witness statement according to your guide-line 12,

25     but we have to ask the witness to leave the courtroom for a moment

Page 9635

 1     because I have to tell you about the author of the text that I want to

 2     show the witness according to your guide-line 12.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You don't have to tell us about the author.  Go

 4     ahead and ask the witness without telling him the author.  You will tell

 5     us the author later.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see, I see.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead, don't tell him who the author is, just

 8     ask him.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Okay then, I'll do that later.  But I

10     thought I would perhaps put it on e-court for you so you could follow the

11     passage I show the witness without the witness looking at it, because in

12     that passage we can see whose talking.  I have exact references in

13     e-court of the pages I want to read to the witness.  There are three

14     references.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you have -- on the exact pages you want to

16     read, is the name of the witness mentioned there?  Of the author?

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  In the header of each page you

18     can see the name of the witness, and that's why I thought we could switch

19     off the screen before the witness for awhile.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Before my friend does this, may I just have a brief

21     indulgence to check something?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By all means, Madam.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Krayishnik, once again you are being asked to

25     excuse us for a short while.  If you can step out for a short while.

Page 9636

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So in keeping with your guide-lines,

 4     paragraph 12, I would like to show the witness now three brief passages

 5     from a statement Mr. Milan Lesic gave to Ms. Bolton on the 7th of August,

 6     2009.  These pages are in e-court and I can tell that you it's 213, 217,

 7     and 208.  Those are the page numbers.  I believe there's one more page,

 8     but these are the page numbers in e-court.  The problem is -- it's easy

 9     to show it to you in e-court, but according to your guide-lines, you need

10     to know exact references in the statement.  Those pages have two numbers

11     because the interview took two days.  I would like to give you the

12     reference for e-court.  That would be the most precise way to go about

13     it.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.  And in fact, better still than

15     giving us the reference, you can just show us the page.

16             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, could my friend -- I have the print versions

17     and could he tell me what pages he is referring to in the print versions

18     of those documents?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, and we were having trouble

20     with that.  That would be page 87.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, August 6th?

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, second day, 7th August.

23     Page 84 from line 15 to line 5 on page 85.  Then on page 86, your

24     question beginning with line 10 -- sorry, no, no, we are not going to

25     take that one.  Page 87, your question beginning on line 5 through

Page 9637

 1     line 30.  Page 88, lines 10 through 15.  And finally, page 79, lines 15

 2     through line 5 on page 80.  All this was in English.

 3             And now in e-court --

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry to interrupt.  This is the August 7th

 5     transcript?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, yes, yes.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since there is a name on each page, I

 9     think that the witness shouldn't be allowed to see the screen.  I think

10     we can call the witness back into the courtroom.  And as for e-court, I

11     would like to call document 1D04 --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you do that, Mr. Lukic, the document

13     that has just disappeared from the screen, 01112229, what is supposed to

14     become of that?

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Nothing, Your Honours.  1D04-0571.  I

16     would first like to have on the screen page 213 in English, and 215 in

17     B/C/S.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you said the witness might come in in the

19     meantime?

20             Mr. Usher.

21             MS. BOLTON:  And we're -- I take it the decision is that his

22     screen is going to be turned off?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know how Mr. Lukic is proposing to go

24     about it.  I thought now that you know that hard copy pages, he is going

25     to be telling him what he said, what the other witness said, without

Page 9638

 1     showing the thing on the screen.  I don't know.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Is that what -- I'm just a little confused.  We are

 3     not displaying the pages; is that right?  Okay.  Thank you very much.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the page is displayed right in front of me

 5     right now with the name of the author.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we just switch off the witness's

 7     monitor or just to turn it the other way?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Turn off the witness's monitor, please.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to put a screen saver on it.

10             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, can we do that before the witness sees the

11     monitor?

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   I'm going to read the English version and, Mr. Witness, you

16     should remain on the same channel as before.  I'm going to put to you

17     what another person said about this same event who claims to have been

18     present during this interview with Mr. Perisic.  I'm going to first read

19     to out to you and then I'm going to put some questions to you.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Line 15, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the President, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we zoom in a little bit on the English.  We

24     can't see line 15.  Okay.  That's better.

25             MR. LUKIC:

Page 9639

 1        Q.   Question, starts a little bit somewhere between line 10 and 15:

 2             "You said that General Perisic was there for maybe two to three

 3     hours and that General Mladic told him that he had guests.  Is that

 4     conversation you overheard?"

 5             Answer --

 6             [Interpretation] No, no, please, I'm reading to you what this

 7     other person had to say, so please listen very carefully and my questions

 8     will follow.

 9        A.   [Interpretation] There's some confusion on the channels and I'm

10     hearing both the English and the B/C/S.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Change the channel to English, please.

12        Q.   So I'm now reading in English and you are listening following my

13     reading in English, okay?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   This is the part of the testimony -- of the interview with other

16     person who now have to -- who now speaks about the same events which you

17     testified, right?  And I will, at the very end, when I finish reading

18     this part of his interview, I will pose you some questions, okay?

19             "Q.  You said that General Perisic was there for maybe two to

20     three hours, and that General Mladic told him that he had guests.  Is

21     that conversation you overheard?"

22             "A.  No.  We were there sitting and he must have told him, he

23     says:  I'm having a guest, come on over.  So he met all of us, as it

24     shows in the tape."

25             Ms. Bolton -- sorry, question:

Page 9640

 1             "So does General Perisic then call ahead and he says 'I have

 2     guests, come over,' or does he show up, drive up, and ...

 3             "A.  I don't know that happened.

 4             "Q.  Okay.  So you just see him, and he is nearby with

 5     General Mladic and he being introduced?

 6             "A.  No.  We were sitting there, and the phone comes or

 7     something, and he just told us, Oh, General Perisic is coming over.

 8             "Q.  And it was General Mladic who told you General Perisic is

 9     coming over?

10             "A.  Well he told -- not me, he told all of us.

11             "Q.  Yes.

12             "A.  Sitting there.  And then he arrived, and then we are all

13     introduced to him and that's how it was.

14             "Q.  Okay.  And how long was it from the time he says

15     General Perisic is coming over until he arrived?

16             "A.  Twenty minutes, ten minutes.  Just having coffee and ..."

17             This is the first part I read.  Now I will read you the second

18     part.

19             MR. LUKIC:  E-court, Your Honour, English page 219, line 1.  I am

20     starting to reading.  B/C/S 218.

21             Question -- 216, English, pardon.  Just a second.  Yes, thank

22     you.  From the very top.

23        Q.   "Q.  Okay.  I assume that General Perisic and General Mladic --

24     was this just a social call, did he not have any time alone with

25     General Mladic to discuss any business?

Page 9641

 1             "A.  Not in my presence there that I remember.

 2             "Q.  Okay.  Was General Mladic with you the whole time that day?

 3             "A.  Not all day.  This time when the pictures were taken and

 4     when we were sitting there.  But he had his other agenda, the jobs to do.

 5     I wasn't with him all day.

 6             "Q.  Okay.  He obviously had other jobs to do.  He is the

 7     general; right?

 8             "A.  Other things to attend, not only me.

 9             "Q.  Okay.  Can you recall whether or not at any point in the

10     time then he and General Perisic were absent from the table together?

11             "A.  I don't remember.  I don't recall.  I don't think they did

12     in our presence.

13             "Q.  Okay.  I know in your presence you're saying you don't think

14     they did, but just so I'm clear --

15             "A.  Yes.

16             "Q.  I'm asking you to remember something obviously that it's

17     fourteen years ago now.

18             "A.  Yes.

19             "Q.  Would you be able to say you are a hundred per cent sure

20     that the two of them never had the opportunity to speak privately that

21     day?

22             "A.  That day I don't know, but not during my being there that I

23     have seen them talking privately, no."

24             Next -- on this page, my reference is now on line 10.

25             "Q.  And you don't recall there being a meal together or anything

Page 9642

 1     with General Perisic that day?

 2             "A.  No, he did not eat with us that I remember it."

 3             And finally, I'm just wondering if you can put from the e-court

 4     for the others participating in the courtroom, the page English 280 --

 5     208 in the e-court.  B/C/S 210, line 15.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, could we just --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  This is page 79.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Question -- it's line 20 is when the question

10     starts:

11        Q.   "Q.  Can you tell me, do you remember when General Perisic

12     arrived at Javor?  Did he spend the night on the 17th?

13             "A.  No.  No, he didn't.  He arrived, it was 2 or three hours

14     with us and he was gone.

15             "Q.  Okay.  What time of the day was it that he arrived?

16             "A.  It was, I would say, in the afternoon in my recollection.

17             "Q.  Was there a meal or anything that he was present for or

18     just ...?

19             "A.  No, he was just there to say hello to General Mladic, and he

20     says, I have some visitors.  And then first time I saw him and the last

21     time I saw him.  General Perisic, Momcilo Perisic."

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will now go back to Serbian, could

23     we set the witness's head set to channel 6.

24        Q.   As Ms. Bolton refreshed your memory with photographs and

25     documents, I want to ask you something about what you just heard.  As you

Page 9643

 1     could see, this was an interview between a certain person and the

 2     Prosecution about the same matters that have been discussed here.  I want

 3     to know several things.  Is it correct that you were sitting there with

 4     that group?  Further, that Mr. Perisic joined you on those benches,

 5     three, that he sat with you?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  One question at a time.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Please.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] You heard what this person said?

10        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

11        Q.   Is it possible that this entire encounter happened in this way,

12     that you were sitting there and then Mr. Perisic joined you on those

13     benches; is that a possibility?

14        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, that's a possibility.  As I said earlier,

15     and as I have to say again, it was a long time ago.  Obviously my memory

16     has deteriorated in the past four or five years.  That's why I asked

17     Ms. Bolton to let my wife accompany me here because I keep forgetting

18     things.  I forget to take my medicine, and if I don't take it regularly,

19     I have real health problems.  These are the facts.  It's reality.

20             Some things I remember, some things I forget, but obviously that

21     witness has a better memory.  He recalls these events better than I do.

22        Q.   That witness -- you didn't say that yesterday, but it was shown

23     to you through references to previous interviews, that witness says that

24     it was no luncheon, that you were just sitting talking?

25        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, it's possible.  Now that I heard part of

Page 9644

 1     his evidence, I keep thinking and I can't remember whether we had lunch

 2     there or at Pale, or whether we had lunch at all.  And I don't remember

 3     the exact time when that happened.

 4        Q.   Except on that occasion you have never seen General Momcilo

 5     Perisic either before or after that?

 6        A.   [Interpretation] Correct.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Krayishnik.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

 9     cross-examination.  I don't wish to tender the part I read out as

10     evidence because we have it in the transcript.  We can keep it as a

11     reserve until the witness appears in the courtroom with regard to your

12     instructions.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

14             Madam Bolton, any re-examination?

15             MS. BOLTON:  I will have some re-examination, Your Honours.  I

16     see it's 10.00.  I wonder if we could take the break earlier so that I

17     can locate in the transcript some of the things -- questions Mr. Lukic

18     asked today?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We'll do that.  We'll take a break, then

20     come back at quarter to.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, that would be plenty of time.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23                           --- Recess taken at 9.57 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10:45 a.m.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

Page 9645

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:

 3        Q.   Hello again, Mr. Krayishnik.

 4        A.   Hello, Madam Bolton.

 5        Q.   Today you told us that you take some medication, and I'd like to

 6     know what the medication you take -- what conditions it's to control?

 7        A.   I'm taking for diabetes [Realtime transcript read in error

 8     "arthritis"] and the cholesterol and some natural medication for all kind

 9     of body function.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said diabetics, not arthritis.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, as well, arthritis as well.

12             MS. BOLTON:

13        Q.   So diabetes, arthritis and cholesterol; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.  And the fish oil, like for memories and stuff like that.

15        Q.   Omega 3, that kind of preventative stuff?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.  Do you take any medication for any kind of cognitive

18     condition or psychiatric condition?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Any medication for your memory?

21        A.   I believe that there is some of these medication for retaining

22     memories.

23        Q.   What medication do you take to retain your memory?

24        A.   I think it's glucosamine, or something like that.

25        Q.   Glucosamine?

Page 9646

 1        A.   Yes, and some other, I can't remember what the name.  It's in a

 2     bottle.

 3        Q.   Glucosamine is not a prescription medication; correct?

 4        A.   It's a natural doctor's prevent -- yeah.

 5        Q.   It's something you can buy in the drugstore; correct?

 6        A.   No, actually I buy it at the doctor's office.

 7        Q.   You buy it at the doctor's office.  Have you ever been diagnosed

 8     with any kind of a memory problem by any physician, sir?

 9        A.   No, I haven't, but I haven't been checked either.

10        Q.   Are you still employed, sir?

11        A.   I'm semi-retired.

12        Q.   When you say you are semi-retired, who do you work for?

13        A.   I have an insurance agency and I am in association with insurance

14     brokerage firm called Financial Horizon.

15        Q.   Do you have employees, sir?

16        A.   Part-time, yes.

17        Q.   How many?

18        A.   One.

19        Q.   And how many different companies, insurance companies do you

20     represent in your business?

21        A.   There's about 29 company in the list, but I deal about five, six

22     companies, occasionally from time to time.

23        Q.   How many days a week do you currently work, sir?

24        A.   A couple of days a week.

25        Q.   Two days a week?

Page 9647

 1        A.   Two, three, depends on the need.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Any idea what your annual revenues are for your company?

 3        A.   The -- from the insurance agency approximately around 30.000.

 4        Q.   And you --

 5        A.   But I also have income from my dealerships, silent partner.

 6        Q.   You also have another business, then.  A silent partner in a

 7     dealership of what?

 8        A.   A dealership of vehicle, cars.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say annual revenues of about $30.000?

11     Annual?

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

13             MS. BOLTON:

14        Q.   And what would you bring in from your car dealership partnership?

15        A.   About $50.000.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, my friend suggested to you, during questioning today,

17     that essentially you have no memory of the discussions around July 16th,

18     17th and 18th except to the extent that your memory has been refreshed by

19     the videos.  Do you recall that line of questioning, sir?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You've also conceded that the first time that you spoke to the

22     Office of the Prosecutor in August 2009, that at that point in time your

23     memory hadn't been refreshed by any video-tapes; correct?

24        A.   I think so.  I think you had a couple of pictures or something

25     like that.

Page 9648

 1        Q.   But no video-tapes; right?

 2        A.   Yeah.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4        A.   As far as I remember, I don't think we had video.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And I want to remind you, sir, then, what your memory was

 6     before it was refreshed from the video-tapes about this discussion and

 7     meeting with Momcilo Perisic.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  I'm looking at the transcript of that audio

 9     interview, which is ID number 1D04-0476.  If we could look at page --

10     what I have as page 21.  If that could be displayed, please.  So page 21

11     in the English version, please.  Could you --

12        Q.   You see at the bottom, I want to read you the following passage

13     starting in e-court at line -- line 18.  I asked you:

14             "We were talking earlier about some of the people you met over

15     there and your impressions of them.  Do you recall meeting a Serbian

16     general called Momcilo Perisic?"

17             And you responded:  "Yes, I met him once."

18             I asked:  "Where was that?"

19             You responded:

20             "And that was in a headquarters with Mladic, yeah, but only with

21     the lunch hour, I think, and we had lunch there and we were on our way

22     down to Pale."

23             And I asked:

24             "Did you speak much with him or ...?"

25             And you started and said:

Page 9649

 1             "No, actually" - if we could turn the page please - "I didn't

 2     talk to him at all.  They were talking -- they were sitting up," then

 3     there's something we can't hear, "and they could -- and Ratko and all

 4     those big army officers were all at our back.  I didn't have any

 5     conversation directly with them."

 6             And I said:

 7             "Okay.  Do you remember which trip this was or ...?"

 8             And you said:

 9             "I think that was 1995, when they liberated the Srebrenica."

10             Second passage I want to put to you is in that same transcript --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Please slow down.

12             MS. BOLTON:  My apologies.  If we could have page 31.  Could I

13     have -- my pages aren't the same as in e-court, could I have page 32,

14     please.  If we could scroll to the bottom of the page, please.

15        Q.   Okay.  We are talking earlier on the page about Naser Oric and

16     the raiding parties, and then starting at approximately line 27 in

17     e-court, Mr. Nicholls was asking you questions.  And he said:

18             "And were they discussing that at the lunch that" --

19             MS. BOLTON:  Actually, I'm sorry, could we scroll up?  I need to

20     start this passage a little earlier to give it context.  Yes, thank you,

21     that's fine.

22        Q.   This is what you said:

23             "Well, apparently it was a major victory for them because

24     apparently there were soldiers going over constantly.  They were going

25     and shooting the Serbian villagers and Serbian people that were," THEN

Page 9650

 1     there's something inaudible, "they were -- that group was never kind of

 2     safe."

 3             Mr. Nicholls said:  "Naser Oric?"

 4             And you said:  "Yeah."

 5             I said:  "Raiding parties of Srebrenica?"

 6             And you said:  "Yeah, yeah, yeah.  And ..."

 7             And Mr. Nicholls said:  "And so ..."

 8             And you said:

 9             "That was it.  But I thought that they were, like, much more safe

10     then," and there's something indiscernible.

11             Mr. Nicholls said:

12             "And were they discussing that at that lunch that, you know, now

13     it's over, that problem?  I mean, it's liberated, that problem is done?"

14             And you said:

15             "Yeah, and they did say that they liberated and they were -- but

16     I -- they didn't spend very much time on it.  They were -- I don't think

17     they had time at all.  They just -- lunch" --

18             MS. BOLTON:  If we could turn the page.  If we could scroll up.

19     In English.  If we could scroll to the top of the page, please.  Thank

20     you.

21        Q.   "Yeah, and they did say -- and that's what I said.  I think I saw

22     General Perisic was there as well, and I think that he didn't spend time

23     with him much except lunch.

24             "Do you recall who was talking about Srebrenica that time or ...?

25             "Well, Gvero, Mladic, and they were laughing about it, that they

Page 9651

 1     liberated," something inaudible.

 2             I asked:  "Was General Perisic there to hear about that?"

 3             You said:  "I think he would hear it because they were all

 4     there."

 5             So, sir, before your memory -- you had any opportunity to view

 6     the videos, when first mention was made of General Perisic, you

 7     immediately said you remember that the occasion that you met him was on

 8     the liberation of Srebrenica, and then you went on to say there was

 9     discussion of Srebrenica at that lunch in the presence of

10     General Perisic.

11             Do you recall that conversation, sir?

12        A.   With you.  Yes, I do recall the conversation with you.

13        Q.   Yes.  All right.

14        A.   Okay, and Mr. Nicholls.

15        Q.   Correct.  Now, you then gave a signed statement to the Office of

16     the Prosecutor dated September 10th, 2009.

17             MS. BOLTON:  And this is 1D04-0461.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All these IDs are not being tendered?

19             MS. BOLTON:  They have not been tendered as yet, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And they are not intended to be tendered?

21             MS. BOLTON:  I am not intending to tender them, Your Honour.

22        Q.   You then --

23             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, if I could have the English version, and I'll

24     be looking at paragraph 21.  If we could focus in a little bit, it's a

25     very hard to read.  Thank you.

Page 9652

 1        Q.   You then gave a statement in September 2009 that you've already

 2     told us you read before signing, where you indicated:

 3             "We were with Generals Mladic, Perisic, and Gvero at the picnic

 4     table for a couple of hours.  As I stated in my previous statement,

 5     Generals Gvero and Mladic were discussing the liberation of Srebrenica at

 6     lunch.  They did not spend much time on it.  General Perisic was present

 7     to hear this conversation.  There were no signs of disagreement between

 8     the generals.  There was a lot of joking around at lunch."

 9             So again in that statement, sir, you were unequivocal about the

10     fact that there had been this discussion in General Perisic's presence on

11     July 18th.  And I'd like to know, sir, why it is now, today, in

12     responding to questions from Mr. Lukic that you are now no longer sure?

13     What has happened in the last month and a half?

14        A.   Because I have heard all kind of and seen all kind of pictures

15     and because this was so long and going back and forth refreshing my

16     memories and discussions, and I seen that I may assume some of these

17     things through my memory.  And even at that time, like I said, that I

18     wasn't sure of a lot of these things.  And also --

19        Q.   Well, could --

20        A.   -- Mr. Lukic suggested those pictures did refresh some of my

21     memories.  And even here you show me more picture than I didn't see it

22     before.

23        Q.   Sorry, first of all, yesterday you testified that there was this

24     discussion.  So what have you seen between yesterday and today in terms

25     of photographs or videos that have changed your mind?

Page 9653

 1        A.   It's not I changed my mind.  When we were talking about the

 2     lunch, I actually meant when we were sitting at the table where we had

 3     the lunch before, and I am not sure if we had lunch that day there or

 4     not.  I cannot recall exactly and say that I'm a hundred per cent sure.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6        A.   But I do remember that table outside in the picnic area, that we

 7     were sitting there.

 8        Q.   So it's the fact that you are not sure whether or not you had

 9     lunch that's changed your mind as to whether or not this conversation

10     about this major victory at Srebrenica in the presence of a Serbian army

11     general took place?

12        A.   Not only that, but also I think those pictures, I think all these

13     pictures that different people sitting at different places and sitting

14     with different people, that made me kind of more confused and unsure of a

15     lot of these things.

16        Q.   But those pictures were shown to you yesterday before you were

17     asked the questions about the conversation at Srebrenica and then

18     yesterday you indicated that that conversation did take place?

19        A.   That's why I'm saying, after seeing these pictures that you show

20     me in the last four days and some pictures that you show me on, I

21     believe, was September 9th, these pictures, they were refreshing some of

22     my memories and confusing me at the same time.

23        Q.   So what pictures have you been shown here that you weren't shown

24     before you signed your statement in September 2009?

25        A.   Well, I think it was -- yesterday was shown a lot of pictures

Page 9654

 1     that I don't remember seeing them before.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3        A.   Sitting outside and inside and General Mladic on the telephone,

 4     and the pictures that you were showing me these, I believe, was the last

 5     picture with brother Rakanovic in the room that also refreshed my memory

 6     that I wasn't there at all.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So that footage with Gorazde is something that you

 8     remember not seeing before.  The photographs at the picnic table, are you

 9     saying that you did not see those during proofing or -- sorry, when we

10     met in September, and those are the photos at the picnic area from

11     July 19th, 1995?

12        A.   That's correct.  I don't remember did I see all of those pictures

13     or not when I was meeting with you in Milton on September 9th.

14        Q.   Okay.  If I could refresh your memory, sir, from paragraph 15 of

15     this statement.

16             MS. BOLTON:  If we could go back.

17        Q.   You'll see a list of --

18             MS. BOLTON:  If I might just have a brief indulgence,

19     Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do.

21             MS. BOLTON:  If I could start with Prosecution Exhibit 02805,

22     please.  Sorry, I was looking for Prosecution Exhibit 2805.  I think this

23     is 65 ter 2805 that's on display.

24        Q.   All right.  So you'll see there's a four-digit number on that

25     photo which was entered into evidence yesterday, and it reads 0548-7248.

Page 9655

 1     And I'm going to --

 2             MS. BOLTON:  If I could have next P2800, please.

 3        Q.   You'll see there's a number on the corner there, sir, 0548-7234?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  If we could have P2799, please.

 6        Q.   Again you'll see there's a number 0548-7236 on that document?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  If we could have P801, please.  Sorry, P2801.

 9        Q.   You'll see again, sir, there's a number there 0548-7238?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MS. BOLTON:  If we could have P2802, please.

13        Q.   You see there, sir, there's a number 0548-7240, do you see that?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15             MS. BOLTON:  If we could have P2798.

16        Q.   You'll see there's an ERN -- or a number there 0548-7242, do you

17     see that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19             MS. BOLTON:  If we could have P2803, please.

20        Q.   You'll see there, sir, there is an ERN 0548-7244?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   And then there was a series of three photographs that were in

23     black and white you were shown yesterday.

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. BOLTON:  I don't know if Mr. Registrar can assist us in

Page 9656

 1     bringing up that exhibit.  We are looking for the number but I haven't

 2     found it yet.  This is something we dealt with in private session and

 3     need to, again, go into private session for.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 5     [Private session]    [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber] 

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Mr. Harmon thinks it was P2705.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             MS. BOLTON:  If we could move forward to the next photograph,

11     please.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             MS. BOLTON:  My apologies.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you move to the next photograph, you don't

15     want to announce that number on the photograph.

16             MS. BOLTON:  One moment, Your Honour.  Yes, I see the number.

17     The number that appears in e-court for this photo is 06394035.  However,

18     I have a copy that is stamped under a different ERN that is not the copy

19     that is in e-court.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess we are working with a copy that's in

21     e-court.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  Okay.  So leaving aside, then, this exhibit,

23     since the ERNs are different, we could leave that document and go back,

24     please, to 1D04-0476 to paragraph 15.  And once this photo is no longer

25     displayed, we can go back into open session, please, Your Honour.

Page 9657

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Wait for the photograph to disappear.  May the

 2     Chamber please move into open session.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  If we could go back to paragraph 15, please.  I am

 4     sorry, Your Honour.

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Madam Bolton.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  My apologies, Your Honour, I got ahead of myself.

 9     If I could have the next page of paragraph 15, please, in the English

10     version.

11        Q.   Sir, then --

12             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, paragraph 15.  We've skipped a page.  All

13     right.

14        Q.   You acknowledge now, sir, that seven of those photographs at

15     least were shown to you during proofing in -- or our meeting in

16     September 2009?

17        A.   I don't recall that you show me all of them but I remember you

18     were showing me a lot of pictures.  How many, I don't know.

19        Q.   Okay.  So then if you had seen the photos before you gave your

20     statement in September, then what is it that has changed your mind to

21     today?

22        A.   Changing my mind on what?

23        Q.   Well, you were previously in two statements, one on audiotape and

24     one signed, unequivocal in saying that this conversation at the picnic

25     table about the victory at Srebrenica took place in the presence of

Page 9658

 1     General Perisic.  You then suggested maybe it was seeing the photographs

 2     that changed your mind, made you doubt that that was true, but we've now

 3     established you'd seen seven of those photographs --

 4        A.   I said I don't know how many.  I saw some photographs that you

 5     show me.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, I've just shown you seven photographs that were

 7     entered as exhibits that you signed a statement saying that you had seen

 8     in September, so we've now established that you saw the photographs.  So

 9     that explanation can't be true as to what made you --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection but I would like

12     to ask for the witness to leave the courtroom.  I do apologise but it's

13     about something that I mentioned in my cross-examination what the OTP are

14     putting forward, and I wouldn't like the witness to hear what I have to

15     say.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Krayishnik, will you please excuse us for a

17     short while, please.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I literally need half a minute.  He

19     doesn't have to go far.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I merely think that it would be fair

23     if Ms. Bolton, asking the witness these questions, could remind him that

24     on the 1st of November in the proofing that he had before giving evidence

25     in this courtroom, also said that he wasn't sure about these events in

Page 9659

 1     Srebrenica.  Even when he had before him both transcripts and the

 2     photographs, even then he said, and that's what I asked him in the

 3     cross-examination, that he wasn't sure that there was this conversation

 4     in Srebrenica, that it really took place.  It would be fair to put this

 5     to the witness now too, as in the previous two interviews.

 6             If you remember, I read part of the note drafted by Ms. Bolton on

 7     the 1st of November to the witness:

 8             "[In English] Contrary to his information report of the

 9     8th of September and his audio interview of the 9th of August, today the

10     witness advised that he is not sure that the conversation about

11     Srebrenica on 18 of July took place at the picnic area.  It may have

12     taken place in the boardroom."

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

14             MS. BOLTON:  I don't think there's anything unfair.  It is

15     clearly in evidence that he has said something in September, something in

16     October that was consistent.  My friend led in cross-examination that he

17     wasn't sure on Sunday, but then he came to court and he testified under

18     oath that this conversation happened.  So -- and now today he is again

19     recanting, and I'd like to know what happened last night.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I merely think it would be fair to

21     put this fact to the witness too.  I don't want to go into what he said

22     to the OTP on Sunday about the same topic.  This is confusing to the

23     witness and why avoid putting to him what he said to the Prosecutor

24     during the proofing on Sunday, the 1st.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My problem, Mr. Lukic, is that you are standing up

Page 9660

 1     to object and I don't see a ground of objection.  If your opposite number

 2     puts questions to a witness in a way that puts your case out of kilter,

 3     that's precisely the purpose of the match.  You know.  Now to say, No,

 4     no, no, don't ask the question.  You are in combat with somebody and you

 5     say, No, no, no, don't shoot me on the head, shoot me on the arm.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just think I'm ready to fight,

 7     Your Honours, that's not the issue.  But this way, I believe she is

 8     creating confusion.  My objection is that she is putting two statements

 9     to him without doing the same with the third and that is the reason why

10     I'm objecting.  Nothing more.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the problem.  You see, you have your agenda

12     when you examine the witness.  She has her agenda when she examines the

13     witness.  Now, when while she is examining you say, No, no, no, don't do

14     it that way, do it this way, you want her to do it your way.  And the

15     whole purpose of this whole game here is that that's why she leads, you

16     cross-examine, she re-examines.  When she leads, she asks according to

17     her wishes.  When you cross-examine, you do so according to your wishes.

18     When she re-examines, she clarifies what she saw as misconceptions during

19     your thing, according to her wishes.

20             Now, for you to want to take over the re-examination because when

21     you say, No, don't ask it that way, ask it this way, you're actually

22     saying, Ask it the way I would like you to ask it.  And I haven't found

23     this to be a ground of -- I'm meeting this for the first time in this

24     Tribunal that this is a ground of objection, and if it is at all.  It's

25     uncomfortable for you because yes, she's undoing your case, or it was

Page 9661

 1     uncomfortable for her because you were undoing her case.  It's not for me

 2     to say, Ask the question the way Mr. Lukic want the question asked.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understand your position,

 4     Your Honour.  When I cross-examine the witness and I -- if I put forward

 5     my case, the OTP also object because they don't want me to confuse the

 6     witness with my questions.  We all want to learn some facts from the

 7     witness based on his memory.  I believe that in proceeding this way, the

 8     witness is being confused.  It isn't about having the witness say what we

 9     want him to say, but it's about eliciting accurate information from him

10     for the benefit of all of us.  And then --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you saying -- are you saying the questions as

12     put by the Prosecutor now are an embellishment of the witness's evidence

13     to the extent of confusing the witness?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then you must say so.  You must say, You are

16     embellishing the witness -- you are embellishing the evidence because

17     that's not what the witness said.  You are saying the witness said A, but

18     the witness said B.  And you've got to show the embellishment.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is what I wanted to say.  Maybe

20     I didn't state it the way you wanted.  I believe --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not the way I want it, the way it's got to be

22     done.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you see, I hope you can understand the

25     difference between what I'm suggesting and what you are saying.

Page 9662

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully understand.  I don't want to

 2     suggest anything.  I don't want to even to oppose the Prosecution case

 3     this way.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Then if Madam Bolton has

 5     embellished the witness's testimony, show her and the Court where she did

 6     so.  You've got to say, Here, Madam Bolton, you are wrong, that's not

 7     what the witness said.  This is what the witness said.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me be as brief as I can.  I think

 9     that's what I meant to say.  Ms. Bolton put to the witness two of his

10     prior statements where he cited certain facts and now she want him to

11     explain why he changed that statement, but she did not put to him his

12     third statement where he says otherwise.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you see, you are still not saying what I'm

14     saying.  You want her to put the versions that you want to put to him.

15     You are not suggesting to her that she is changing the witness's answers,

16     which is what I mean by embellishment.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think -- let me try again.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, it's already on the record, Mr. Lukic, it is

19     on record that you put several versions it to the witness.  You read

20     three statements to the witness which you said are not consistent.  Okay.

21     It doesn't matter whether Madam Bolton puts only one or two of those

22     statements.  It is on the record.  We will see it.  We will see what you

23     put to him, we will see what she puts to him.  But when you now interfere

24     with her re-examination, we can only get into this lengthy discussion and

25     not solve anything.

Page 9663

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I really don't want to take more

 2     time, but if she wants a general answer to a question without putting

 3     everything that is relevant to that answer, then I believe she is

 4     creating confusion in his mind.  She wants him to give a general answer

 5     why he changed his mind, putting two of his prior answers to him without

 6     putting the third and that can confuse the witness.  That's my point.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, do you want to answer this?  The

 8     objection is you've only put two versions to the witness instead of

 9     three.

10             MS. BOLTON:  I haven't misstated anything to the witness,

11     Your Honour.  And I'm --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not the objection.  The objection is not

13     that you misstated, the objection is -- you've been hearing me trying to

14     say to him he must show where you embellished the evidence.  He is not

15     saying so.  He is saying the witness has given three versions.  You are

16     putting only two instead of three to him.  Well, if you say four then --

17     yeah.  But that's his -- that's the --

18             MS. BOLTON:  That's not a legal objection.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You've been hearing me talk to him.

20             MS. BOLTON:  I have, Your Honour, and --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm just asking you to -- is that your response?

22             MS. BOLTON:  My response is that is not a --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not an objection.

24             MS. BOLTON:  -- legal objection.  I have a right to ask

25     questions.  Unless I misstate the evidence to the witness, there is then

Page 9664

 1     there's no proper basis for an objection.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am afraid, Mr. Lukic, I must overrule your

 3     objection.  May the witness come in, please.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             MS. BOLTON:

 6        Q.   Sir, I'm sure by now you've long forgotten my question, so let me

 7     go back to it.  We've established, sir, that you gave a statement on

 8     August 9th, 2009, in which you indicated that General Perisic was present

 9     for a discussion at the picnic table area of the victory of Srebrenica

10     that was taking place between Generals Mladic and Gvero.  We've

11     established that you gave a signed statement on September -- signed on

12     September 10th, 2009, to the same effect.  We know that yesterday during

13     your testimony you again confirmed that that conversation took place.

14     And then today you gave a different response under oath than what you

15     gave yesterday, that you indicated you were not sure if it's true, and

16     when I asked for an explanation you suggested it was perhaps seeing the

17     photographs that changed your mind.  And we've now established that the

18     photographs of the picnic area had been shown to you before you signed

19     your statement back in September.

20             So is there any other explanation you can offer as to why you are

21     now unsure?

22        A.   Because I noticed through my statements from August and on that

23     my memory wasn't serving me properly, and that I, like I mentioned, being

24     confused to some of these pictures and questions, and that is my answer.

25        Q.   Sir, did you have any communication with anybody from Canada last

Page 9665

 1     night?

 2        A.   I only had a call from my daughter last night around 10.00.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Are you and Mr. Lesic still friends?

 4        A.   I don't know what you mean by that.  I see him from time to time.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Do you socialise --

 6        A.   We are not house friends.  We are not visiting each other at

 7     homes or anything like that.

 8        Q.   Do you see him from time to time in social gatherings?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   How close to one another do you live?

11        A.   I don't know, maybe 20 miles.

12        Q.   When did you last speak to him?

13        A.   I think a week before I came here.

14        Q.   And what did you speak about?

15        A.   We were talking about some church stuff that we are involved in

16     parishes and diocese.

17        Q.   Have you talked to him at all about the fact that you had been

18     interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor?

19        A.   Yes, I did mention to him.  Actually he told me that he spoke to

20     you before and I think I told you that at the Sunday that you called me

21     to meet you in Etobicoke, that he -- that we were together on some picnic

22     in Hamilton, close by Hamilton, and he mentioned that he was interviewed

23     by you.

24        Q.   Okay.  So you were aware that he had been interviewed, and did

25     you make him aware of the fact that you had also been interviewed?

Page 9666

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Did you discuss your evidence?

 3        A.   No, I did not.

 4        Q.   Did he discuss his evidence?

 5        A.   No.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know how this has anything to

 8     do with my cross-examination, this whole line of questioning.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

10             MS. BOLTON:  I would indicate that I was investigating what

11     contact the witness may have had last night and what contact he has had

12     since he gave his original statements.  And we know he has vacillated

13     from his original statements, so it's relevant to that issue.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But he has given you an explanation why he has

15     vacillated, and I don't know how what you are now asking about relates to

16     his explanation.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Well, I'm entitled, am I not, to probe the

18     explanation that he has given, Your Honour?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are quite entitled to probe his explanation.

20     However, I just don't see the link between his explanation and the

21     present probing.  He attributes his change of evidence to the confusion

22     that arises from -- there were lots of questions that he has got, the

23     many interviews that he has had, the various photographs that he has been

24     shown, the videos that have been shown, which obviously give him a

25     slightly different picture from what he remembered from his own memory,

Page 9667

 1     unassisted by all those aids.

 2             Now, the probing seems to suggest in fact that the reason for his

 3     change of behind is much beyond that, but by some factor outside what he

 4     has said caused the confusion.  That's why I say I don't see the link.

 5     And before Mr. Lukic stood up, I was almost asking you where are we going

 6     with all that but I said, well, let me keep quiet.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Your Honour, I think I understood your explanation

 9     of the witness's answer more clearly than I understood the witness.  I

10     can indicate with respect to this line of questioning, I don't intend to

11     pursue it any further, but I do wish to change my mind on a position I

12     took earlier which was now that the witness has raised the issue of

13     suggesting that he was confused in the previous interviews and what he

14     was shown, I do think, then, I am going to be seeking to tender portions

15     of the September and August interviews to the Court for the --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The statements?

17             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, the previous statements.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's up to you.

19             MS. BOLTON:  With respect to the statement of 8th September 2009,

20     I would be seeking to tender -- this is 1D04-0461, paragraphs 10, 14, 15,

21     16, 18, 20, 21.  Those are all paragraphs in which there is discussion of

22     what he is shown.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you done?

24             MS. BOLTON:  I'm just double-checking, Your Honour.  I'm sorry.

25     Yes, those are the paragraphs, Your Honour.

Page 9668

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  ID -- I beg your pardon,

 2     Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's not an objection, Your Honour,

 4     but since this is an exception, generally speaking, in keeping with your

 5     guide-lines we don't normally admit parts of statements, but I would in

 6     this case ask for his proofing note of the 1st of November to be admitted

 7     as well in its entirety.  Although for me personally what is on the

 8     record is quite sufficient, but I don't mind -- I don't object to the

 9     admission of those passages the Prosecutor is tendering.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we do things one step at a time.  If you want

11     to tender the proofing note, can you wait and tender it -- okay.

12             1D04-0461, all those paragraphs, are admitted into evidence.  May

13     that please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  This document becomes Exhibit P2810.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  2810.

16             Yes, Madam Bolton, you are going to tender something else.

17             MS. BOLTON:  I am, Your Honour.  If I may just have a moment to

18     locate the passages.  I apologise, I need about two minutes here.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not a problem.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While you are doing that, Mr. Lukic, would you

22     like to tender something?

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like to tender the

24     record of the interview -- rather, the proofing note of the 1st of

25     November marked OTP Info Report 01112009.  And let me avail myself of

Page 9669

 1     this opportunity to suggest something else, namely to admit a short

 2     video-clip, 65 ter 9559 from 00 until 00.21 seconds.  That's yesterday's

 3     page 96, if you remember the luncheon, the plates.  9615 is the

 4     transcript page from yesterday.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's just confirm, the first document you want

 6     admitted is 01112009.  It's not 01112229?  Okay.  That is admitted into

 7     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document becomes

 9     Exhibit D193.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Now, Mr. Lukic, you also

11     want to have admitted into evidence 9559 from 0 minutes to .21 minutes.

12             MR. LUKIC:  No, sorry, Your Honour, 65 ter 9599.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  99.  Okay.

14             MR. LUKIC:  From 00 to 021 seconds.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  Okay.  That's 65 ter 9599 from

16     0 minute to .21 minutes, it's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

17     given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That becomes Exhibit D194, thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Madam Bolton, are you ready?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon?  Sorry?  Madam Bolton, are you

22     ready?

23             MS. BOLTON:  I think so.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You may go ahead.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Dealing with the transcript of 9th August 2009,

Page 9670

 1     which is 1D04-0476, if we -- if I could have -- and I apologise because

 2     my print pages don't correspond with e-court, could you display again for

 3     me, please, page 20 of the English transcript.  Sorry, I'm looking for

 4     page 20 still.  I'm sure -- Mr. Registrar looks like he is having

 5     problems.  There we have it.  Could you scroll down, please.  Could you

 6     go to page 21, please.  Okay.  Starting at line 18, then, of page 21, if

 7     you could continue to page -- yeah, of page 21.  Could you continue to

 8     page 22, please.

 9             If we could tender just up to line 11 there, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  From where?

11             MS. BOLTON:  Page 20 -- sorry, we are on 22, aren't we?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say tender up to line 11, where did you

13     start?

14             MS. BOLTON:  From the previous page, the line number I had

15     indicated which was page 21, line 18, to page 22, line 11.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Those pages are tendered in.  May they be,

17     please, given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

19     Exhibit P2811.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MS. BOLTON:  And then if we could go, please, again in e-court to

22     page 31.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of the same statement?

24             MS. BOLTON:  Same statement, yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you just mention all pages of the same

Page 9671

 1     statement like you did with the previous exhibit, and then we can admit

 2     them all under 2811.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Oh, yes, I will.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do that.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go through them and tell them to the Registrar.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  And I just -- I'm sorry, I can't do this based on

 8     the print transcript because it doesn't correspond.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  But go through all your pages and then --

10             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I will.  Sorry, are we on page 31 now?  32,

11     please try.  Okay.  Going to start at line 5 on page 32, continue to

12     page 33, please.  To the end of that page, please, which is page 33,

13     line 33.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, which between the B/C/S and English

16     is the original here?

17             MS. BOLTON:  The English is the original, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Those are the only segments I'm seeking to have

20     admitted, thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They have been given Exhibit number P2811.  Thank

24     you so much.  That's it?

25             MS. BOLTON:  Court's indulgence, Your Honour.  Thank you for the

Page 9672

 1     indulgence, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.  You are still on your

 3     re-examination.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  I am, thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Move on to another area, sir.  Did you ever physically see

 6     General Perisic get in a car or a helicopter to leave Han Pijesak -- or

 7     Crna Rijeka on the 18th of July, 1995?

 8        A.   No, I didn't.

 9        Q.   My friend when he was asking you about the timing of the exchange

10     on July 18th of the motorcar parts, he suggested you weren't sure if that

11     happened before or after -- he said you can't remember either whether

12     that video-clip about the hand-over of medication and spare parts was

13     before or after your encounter with Mr. Perisic.

14             MS. BOLTON:  I'd like to display 65 ter 9606 to see if it

15     refreshes your memory.  And the page numbers, I guess once you get there,

16     I'll assist with you the page numbers.  In B/C/S it's page 93, and in

17     English it's page 42.

18        Q.   You see, sir, that there is an indication in this document of

19     18 July 1995, Ned Krayishnik with the delegation, 1410 to 1600 hours.  I

20     didn't take you to page 1 of this document, but this is an excerpt of

21     Radovan Karadzic's diary.

22             Did you meet with Dr. Karadzic at the scheduled time or not?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24        Q.   You don't remember.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.  I'm done.  If that just one page could be

Page 9673

 1     tendered into evidence, please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 3     given an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  This document becomes

 5     Exhibit P2812.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  I haven't much further to go, Your Honour, but it is

 8     noon.  Do you wish to take the break?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How much further do you have to go?

10             MS. BOLTON:  I think about 5 minutes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  There is some housekeeping that the Chamber would

12     like to raise with the parties.  It might take another 10.  We can either

13     go for another 15 minutes and then break for good, or come back for

14     another 15 minutes after.

15             MS. BOLTON:  If we could have just a few minutes, Your Honour,

16     that would be my preference at least.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Go ahead.

18             MS. BOLTON:  I am sorry, by that I meant -- by that I meant if we

19     could take the break for a few minutes, that would assist me.  I'm not

20     being very clear, I'm sorry.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's take the break and come back at the normal

22     time, half past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

23                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

Page 9674

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Last area, sir.  When Mr. Lukic was questioning you the other

 3     day, he asked you if you'd had the opportunity, in Canada, to follow the

 4     reporting of various media organisations about what was going on in the

 5     former Yugoslavia during the war.  And he then suggested to you that

 6     based on the information you received, personally or from your friends or

 7     through the Serbian media, that you formed an opinion that the western

 8     media was partial and that they favoured the Croatian Muslim sides and

 9     the Serbs were to blame for everything.  And you agreed with that

10     suggestion.

11             Do you recall that line of questioning, sir?

12        A.   Yes, I do.  And I still agree.

13        Q.   I want to ask you, sir, if there were reports in the western

14     media to the effect that there had been thousands of Muslim men and boys

15     murdered in Srebrenica after it was liberated?

16        A.   Would you repeat the question, please.

17        Q.   Were you aware of reports in the western media that there were

18     thousands of Muslim men and boys murdered in Srebrenica after it was

19     liberated?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you consider the reporting of those killings of Muslim men at

22     Srebrenica to be biased or inaccurate?

23        A.   Yes, I believe it was biased and inaccurate.

24        Q.   What did you believe?

25        A.   I believe it and I come to the conclusion when they were looking

Page 9675

 1     for the mass graves and all this, that they were led by the Muslim

 2     organisation to the graves, mass graves.  And my opinion was, how would

 3     they know where those mass graves were if they were not there?  And my --

 4     in Serbian media is believe that those was mass graves Serbs who was

 5     killed by Naser Oric during the four years war, and that they led them to

 6     those mass graves.  From that hearing and on the news and people, I

 7     believe that was possible.

 8        Q.   So you believed that the mass graves that were uncovered in the

 9     area of Srebrenica were actually mass graves of Serbs who had been

10     killed; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Is that a belief you still hold, sir?

13        A.   I do.

14        Q.   And you said that was based on what you saw on the news and

15     people, what people told you that?

16        A.   Well, the people that they were watching more news and watching

17     the war more than I did.

18        Q.   Who was that?

19        A.   Well, in the general conversation with the -- whenever you meet

20     or talk to the people.  That was the people's opinion.

21        Q.   Okay.  The people being whom?

22        A.   The Serbian people to Canada and the States.

23        Q.   Okay.  Do you believe, sir, that there were thousands of Muslim

24     men and boys killed at Srebrenica then at all?

25        A.   I believe they was killed, but I believe there were more killed

Page 9676

 1     in action.

 2        Q.   You believe there were some killed, but you don't believe there

 3     were mass executions of civilians; is that fair?

 4        A.   Right.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Bolton.

 7                           Questioned by the Court:

 8             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Just wait for the interpretation

 9     to end.  A few questions to ask, Witness.  You are from Bosnia, of the

10     area of Sarajevo, aren't you?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Have you returned there since you

13     left in the 1960s, except during the war?

14        A.   I return first time 1972, and then I was imprisoned by the

15     Yugoslav government for a week.

16             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And after that you returned during

17     the 1990s?

18        A.   I return -- my second return was 1985 when my sister passed away

19     in Sarajevo.

20             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Right.  So you kept some ties,

21     some important ties with Bosnia, very close ties?

22        A.   I didn't keep close ties because second return, when I went to

23     the funeral of my sister, two days after funeral, I was again detained

24     and put in jail for a few days.  And on the intervention of the Canadian

25     government, through the Canadian embassy, I was let go.

Page 9677

 1             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Right.  Going to the ties you have

 2     with Bosnia, in view of these ties, I suppose you followed closely the

 3     events during the war in the former Yugoslavia?

 4        A.   Yes, I was watching the news whenever I had the time.

 5             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] When you left to Belgrade to bring

 6     the scanner, you left on what day, on the 15th or the 16th of July, 1995?

 7        A.   You mean if I left -- when I left Canada for Yugoslavia?

 8             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

 9        A.   I believe I left on the 14th of July.

10             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So you left -- I think we were

11     already speaking about the Srebrenica events in all medias, on all medias

12     in the world, so you knew what was going on at the time there.

13        A.   I didn't because I had no access to media, those --

14             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] In Canada?

15        A.   In Canada and on my trip, on the way to Yugoslavia.

16             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You don't have television in

17     Canada?

18        A.   I have a television in Canada, but I didn't have the time to

19     watch it because we were preparing to --

20             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And you didn't read the newspapers

21     either?

22        A.   No, I didn't.

23             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] For somebody who comes from Bosnia

24     and knowing that there is a war on and knowing that you are going there

25     to bring humanitarian aid, isn't it a bit strange that you be so ignorant

Page 9678

 1     of the events which were going on in this specific place, specific part

 2     of the world?

 3        A.   Well, that's the way it was, so it's -- there's only so many

 4     hours and so many things to be done.  I rarely read the papers because I

 5     don't have the time.  And when I watch the news, it would be in the

 6     evening, depends how long days I had and hours working.

 7             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Therefore, in fact you were

 8     practically completely ignorant of the events in former Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   I was so upset with the previous Yugoslavian government, when

10     they announced that they were going to have a free election like they did

11     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I was happy to see the communist regime will fell

12     and I expect that anything that comes out would be better than what it

13     was when I left the country.

14             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] This was not my question, but I

15     understand your point of view.  Therefore, you are telling us that when

16     you left on the 14th of July to Belgrade, you had no idea of what was

17     going on in Bosnia at the time?

18        A.   I knew there was war there, but I didn't know where was the major

19     war or where was the major fighting, that is true.

20             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You know that coming from Bosnia

21     to go from Belgrade to Han Pijesak one has to go through the enclave of

22     Srebrenica, don't you?

23        A.   When I arrived in Belgrade, we had a couple of days that we were

24     not able to get the scanner to arrive to Belgrade, and we waited for a

25     couple of days for scanner to arrive from Bulgaria to Belgrade, and we

Page 9679

 1     were preoccupied with those things.  And I really didn't know that was a

 2     fight against Srebrenica.

 3             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] This I understood, that you were

 4     ignorant of everything that was going on in Bosnia, but what I wanted to

 5     know is that do you know that -- you knew that Srebrenica was a Muslim

 6     enclave, that was no news to you?

 7        A.   I didn't know that was an enclave.  I didn't know that it was --

 8     it wasn't liberated before until I arrived into Belgrade when we had

 9     the -- when we met -- not Belgrade, but Han Pijesak, when we met with

10     General Mladic.

11             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I'm reverting to my former

12     question.  You know that to go from Belgrade to Han Pijesak one has to go

13     through the enclave of Srebrenica, liberated or not?

14        A.   I never went to Srebrenica to Han Pijesak.

15             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I'm not talking about the town,

16     I'm talking about the enclave.

17        A.   Yeah, but my answer is that -- are you asking me did I go to

18     Srebrenica to Han Pijesak, I said no.  I never did go to enclave of

19     Srebrenica to Han Pijesak.

20             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You know a bit of geography, don't

21     you?  So you have some notion, you know Bosnia.  You know what are the

22     ways to go to Han Pijesak.  You know the roads pass by the area of

23     Srebrenica, don't you?

24        A.   Very little I knew geography of Yugoslavia, and to be honest, I

25     don't remember even hearing the name of the Srebrenica until I heard it

Page 9680

 1     was liberated.

 2             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So you continue to affirm that to

 3     go from Belgrade to Han Pijesak you did not notice anything, you didn't

 4     see any combat, you didn't hear firing, people were not stressed because

 5     there was no problem, as if you were travelling in a free country --

 6     peaceful country?

 7        A.   We -- I went to that area a few times previously and there was no

 8     different this time than what it was before.  We were never stopped

 9     anywhere on the way to Han Pijesak and Pale through Zvornik, Bijeljina

10     and -- Bijeljina, Zvornik and Vlasenica.

11             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] All right.  I'll ask a question on

12     another topic.  When you were in Han Pijesak, General Perisic came on the

13     18th of July, didn't he?  I mean, it's not a question, it's an

14     affirmation.  Do you think that he came to see you at Han Pijesak or for

15     other reasons?

16        A.   Definitely not me, and for what reason he came, I didn't know.

17             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] He came to meet General Mladic and

18     the other generals from Bosnia, didn't he?  He didn't come to meet the

19     Canadian delegation which just a few days before was in Belgrade?

20        A.   Your Honour, could you repeat the question.

21             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] This is my question:  Do you think

22     that General Perisic came to meet the Canadian delegation in Han Pijesak

23     on July 18th or whether he came to meet General Mladic and the other

24     Bosnian generals?

25        A.   You are asking for my opinion why did he came?  I said I don't

Page 9681

 1     know why did he came and I only assume that he come to see [overlapping

 2     speakers] --

 3             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] For tourism?  He didn't go for

 4     tourism, he didn't go there to see you?

 5        A.   That's right, so that's why I'm saying, why was he there?  He

 6     must have been there to see Mladic -- General Mladic and his associates.

 7     So I assume that.  But I never asked him -- I never asked anybody why was

 8     he there or what was he doing there or anything like that.

 9             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And you never saw them talking

10     together during the entire time you spent there?

11        A.   You mean General Ratko Mladic and General Momcilo Perisic?

12             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] For example, yes, those two?

13        A.   I didn't see them that they were standing and talk together.  I

14     didn't see them.

15             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I have no other questions.  Thank

16     you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Judge.  Am I right, sir, I'm not quite

18     sure I'm absolutely right, that a few minutes ago when Madam Lorna was

19     asking you about the western media, you said that yes, the western media

20     was biased and inaccurate?

21        A.   Yeah.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You saw this media?

23        A.   I saw the media from time to time whenever I had --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, sure, but you did see the media --

25        A.   Yeah.

Page 9682

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- you did read the media --

 2        A.   Yeah.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- and you came to the conclusion in fact that

 4     your analysis of how they were reporting was incorrect?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you actually came to the conclusion that lots

 7     of people that are said to have died in Srebrenica are the 4.000 people

 8     that were killed by Naser Oric?

 9        A.   Your Honour, could you repeat the question, I didn't hear it.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You also came to the conclusion that the mass of

11     people who were found in graves, that you say were found in graves, must

12     have been people who were killed by Naser Oric, the 4.000 Serbs that were

13     killed by Naser Oric, because according to you, you just said --

14        A.   Yeah, that was my --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- how would they know otherwise if they were the

16     victims?

17        A.   That was my conclusion, yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  And am I right also in saying that you've

19     just been answering the Judge's questions and you are saying that you

20     didn't see the media, you had no access to media when you were in Canada

21     and you knew nothing about what was happening in Srebrenica?

22        A.   I was watching the media but I -- from time to time.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking you -- I'm not asking -- that's not

24     my question.  I'm not asking you if you were watching the media.  I'm

25     asking you if, am I right that you have just been answering questions

Page 9683

 1     from the Judge and saying to her that you didn't see the media, you

 2     didn't know anything about what was happening in Srebrenica during that

 3     time?

 4        A.   No, that's true.  That is correct, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, of these two versions, the one that you told

 6     Madam Lorna and the one that you are telling this Judge, which is true?

 7        A.   Truth is, when I was watching the news from time to time, we -- I

 8     had a conclusions that --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But that's not -- that's not the version you have

10     given.

11        A.   [Overlapping speakers] --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not the version you have given, sir.  You

13     said to Madam Lorna, you watched the news, you analysed the news and you

14     came to certain conclusions.  You say to the Judge you never watched the

15     news because you had no access to the media.

16        A.   I meant that I never watched the news when I was on the way from

17     Canada to former Yugoslavia.  That's what I meant.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of course you are not going to watch the news when

19     you were on your way to Canada.

20        A.   That's what I meant, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Judge actually asked the question:  "In

22     Canada?"  Do you remember that?  And the interpreter said:  "In Canada,

23     question mark?"  Did you hear him say that?  She asked you about the TV,

24     television you had --

25        A.   Yeah, she asked me about --

Page 9684

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- in Canada, asked you about the newspapers.

 2        A.   Yes, she asked me about newspapers.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  Now surely she's not asking you

 4     about TV and newspapers in a plane coming to Srebrenica.  She is asking

 5     you about when you were in Canada.

 6        A.   But, Your Honour, she asked me about did I heard anything about

 7     Srebrenica, did I know about the enclave of Srebrenica.  I don't recall

 8     that I heard any special news about Srebrenica or anything or

 9     [overlapping speakers] -- the wars and stuff like that.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  She asked about the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

11     in --

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- Srebrenica, events in former Yugoslavia.

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you said you had no access to the media?

16        A.   I meant access to media when I was on the plane.  I didn't mean

17     the access to the media when I was in Canada.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I have no further questions to you.

19             Madam Lorna, any questions arising from the Bench's questions.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Two questions, Your Honour.

21                           Further Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:

22        Q.   When Justice Picard was asking you a question, sir, about your

23     travel to Han Pijesak from Belgrade on July 17th, 1995, you indicated

24     that there was nothing remarkable about the journey.  It was no different

25     than previous trips you had made.  And I want to remind you of the

Page 9685

 1     answer, the information you gave in your statement, your audio statement

 2     of August 9th, 2009.  I'm at page at 28 in the print copy and I'll just

 3     read it to you.  Mr. Nicholls was asking you:

 4             "On this July 1995, do you remember that you had to take a

 5     certain route because there was still Muslim soldiers from Srebrenica who

 6     were in the woods?  They were --"

 7             And then you said:

 8             "They did say that there was a road that they -- that they were

 9     taking a road -- that they -- that cannot go there because it's unsafe

10     with the Srebrenica soldiers.  Muslim soldiers were dispersed all over

11     the place.  And that he says like hijacking anybody were, you know,

12     shooting on the spot.  So they took some different route.  I don't

13     remember that -- that they were talking, but I didn't know which road

14     they took."

15             Do you recall being asked that question and giving that answer in

16     August, sir?

17        A.   I recall some questions that you put but I don't recall all this

18     answer that you are saying that I said.  I recall the answer that you

19     were putting to me, did you go to Bratunac, and I replied that I -- that

20     we went to the usual road that we went through Zvornik and Vlasenica,

21     that I don't think that --

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MS. BOLTON:  If I could see page 28, please, of ID 1D04-0476,

24     please.  Could you go in e-court then to the following page --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 9686

 1             MS. BOLTON:  My apologies.  Could you go to page 29 in e-court,

 2     please.  The passage I've just read to the witness appears at

 3     lines 8 to 23 of the transcript that's before the Court, and I'd ask that

 4     that be marked in evidence.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted in evidence.  May it please be given

 6     an exhibit number.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you sure this paragraph is not one of those

 9     that you've already tendered, ma'am?

10             MS. BOLTON:  I am -- no, I don't believe I've tendered this, sir.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  Then this paragraph will be added to

12     P2811.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   And finally, sir, do you recall attending a proofing session on

15     the 1st November 2009 with myself and Mr. Harmon at the Office of the

16     Prosecutor?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MS. BOLTON:  And if I could have information report, I understand

19     it's 02112009, if that document could be brought up, please.  It

20     should --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it 0211?

22             MS. BOLTON:  I'm told it's OTP Information Report 02112009.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It is D193, for the record.  Thank you.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

Page 9687

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, it can't be.  D193 is 01112009.  You are

 2     calling for 02112009.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, thank you.

 4             Could you, please, Mr. Registrar, go to the second page of this

 5     document.

 6        Q.   You recognise the signature on that page, sir?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Did you review this document before you signing it, sir?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   Okay.  And sir, I'm going to suggest with you that when we met

11     with you on the weekend that you indicated that you believed when you

12     left Belgrade in 1995, you crossed over into Bosnia at Zvornik and

13     eventually travelled through Konjevic Polje to Vlasenica?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And is that true, sir?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MS. BOLTON:  I have nothing further.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Mr. Lukic?

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you start, Mr. Lukic, do you want to

21     do anything with that document, ma'am?  Madam Bolton?

22             MS. BOLTON:  Court's indulgence, please, Your Honour.  It's just

23     that one passage that I wanted to rely on and I've read it into the

24     record, Your Honour.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 9688

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to switch the

 2     witness's sound to channel 6.

 3                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 4        Q.   I hope that this is my last question to you, Witness.  I only

 5     have one.

 6             Witness, you answered Judge Picard that you didn't follow the

 7     media before leaving on the trip, that you say that you departed on the

 8     14th of July before the events at Srebrenica.  Then Judge Moloto put

 9     the -- put your statement to you that it was your opinion that the mass

10     graves found around Srebrenica, in fact, contained the bodies of the

11     victims of Naser Oric?

12        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

13        Q.   So you were actually confronted with your own statements.  If the

14     first information about mass killings were -- appeared in the western

15     media in August of 1995, is it possible that you received that

16     information after returning to Canada?

17        A.   [Interpretation] I don't remember.

18        Q.   But throughout these years you -- you followed the information

19     about the mass killings at Srebrenica from the western media and various

20     media?

21        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

22        Q.   And from that information you arrived at the conclusion that you

23     formulated in your opinion about these mass killings?

24        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have no further

Page 9689

 1     questions.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir, that brings us to the end of your

 3     testimony, sir.  Thank you so much for coming to testify at the Tribunal.

 4     You are now excused.  You may stand down.  Please travel well back home.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are welcome.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  A few housekeeping matters.

 9             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know whether

11     for the record we should note what I have read out with regard to your

12     guide-lines from Article 12, that these are based on the statements of

13     witness Milan Lesic, because according to Rule 12, we must refer to the

14     witness and the witness statement when mentioning such information.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess that's it.  You did mention -- we did see

16     when you put it on the ELMO -- on the screen who it was.  Thank you so

17     much, Mr. Lukic.

18             A few things that we probably need to raise for purposes of

19     planning.  I guess we are nearing the close of the Prosecution case from

20     the messages that we have been getting and that raises the question what

21     the plans are from the Defence side for the near future.  And I just

22     don't want to mention certain stages; I would like them to be mentioned

23     by you first, before I mention them.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Speaking about the near future, I

25     suppose that you expect me to state my position to what is at the

Page 9690

 1     disposal of the Defence until the end of the OTP case, and whether we are

 2     to apply Rule 98 bis, that's what I understand to be your first question.

 3             Unfortunately, today I'm not yet in the position to give you my

 4     final answer but I will very soon.  These days I have talked a lot with

 5     Mr. Perisic and I mentioned this topic too.  Mr. Guy-Smith isn't here,

 6     but he will return soon and I would like to consult him.  But next week

 7     we'll probably have a witness for a day or two and then I will give you

 8     the final position of the Defence with regard to Rule 98 bis, if that is

 9     indeed your first question.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic, on that.  You read

11     me correctly.  Past that we -- there's going to be some disclosures that

12     I have to come from the Defence to the Prosecution, you know, witness

13     summaries and witness lists and what have you.  About how soon do you

14     think this may be forthcoming?

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Am I to state my opinion now?  I

16     must --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can state your plans to the extent that they

18     are --

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.  I have a small

20     reservation because today we received the fourth application from the OTP

21     for a bar table motion.  It is the OTP case, too, also that affects our

22     plans.  We must formulate our reply to the bar table motions of the OTP

23     and this requires certain consultation.  If I'm required to state my

24     intention as to the submission of a list of witnesses, or rather,

25     drafting a pre-Defence brief that includes a list of witnesses and the

Page 9691

 1     documents we intend to use during the Defence case, I would kindly ask

 2     for the dead-line to be the 15th of December.

 3             Once the OTP case is completed, that we may have 30 days to draft

 4     that submission.  I hope that the Chamber will agree with that because it

 5     is intended for this trial to be continued after the 18th of January, so

 6     the Defence will have time enough to submit its evidence.

 7             Two things matter to us.  In the forthcoming period, we must

 8     interview witnesses that the Defence had contacted in the pre-trial stage

 9     through a longer period of time.  But Mr. Guy-Smith and I have to talk

10     about that.  You know when Mr. Guy-Smith joined the Defence team, it was

11     at the beginning of the trial, and we want to have a joint decision about

12     each and every witness of ours who is to be put on the list.  I believe

13     we cannot do that unless we are in the field less than 30 days together.

14             But after such a period, we can submit that list and then the OTP

15     will have time to prepare once we start with the Defence case after the

16     court recess.  I don't know -- that is, I know that the recess will not

17     really be a vacation time either for us or the OTP, but I am afraid that

18     cannot be avoided.

19             I'm being very realistic now, I'm not asking for more hoping to

20     get a little less.  We now have to work very actively and we have to make

21     a joint effort to achieve results.  And one more thing.  A large number

22     of documents has been sent to be translated and we are still waiting for

23     the translations.  We can submit a list of documents, but unless they are

24     officially translated by the time when the OTP can begin getting

25     acquainted for them, then, I don't know.  So we'll try to have the

Page 9692

 1     translation service to be completed as soon as possible.  99 per cent,

 2     approximately, of these documents are in Serbian, so we need the English

 3     translations.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have raised a number of issues.  You have made

 5     certain assumptions and you have revealed certain information, so can I

 6     hold you to what you just said about the start of the Defence case, which

 7     I hadn't asked yet, that it will be as we come back from the recess?

 8     Irrespective of whether or not there's going to be a 98 bis, or whether

 9     or not the summaries and witness lists are ready, we will start the

10     Defence case when we come back from recess?  Can I hold you on to that?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That seems to matter to you most.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It does matter -- well, what matters to me is

13     finishing the trial.  So if you -- when I get a date that is sweet in the

14     mouth, I want to hang on to it.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I also want to -- this trial to

16     finish and without major interruptions, and you have my word that on the

17     18th of January we can start with the Defence case.  If next week we

18     finish and if the period for deciding under Rule 98 bis -- I don't expect

19     a longer period to be attributed to us or granted to us under Rule 98

20     bis, and it's in these --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I appreciate that very much.  In fact, I

22     usually -- 98 bis shouldn't take more than five minutes actually.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have experience with that.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In my tradition.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In my tradition there is no such

Page 9693

 1     thing, I learned it -- I learned about this here in this Tribunal.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just skip it, if you don't know it.

 3             Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic, I really do appreciate that start

 4     of the Defence case time that you give.

 5             Let's just find out, Mr. Harmon, Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Lukic is asking

 6     for the 15th of December to give you the summaries of statements and

 7     witness lists, and he has already indicated that we are starting when we

 8     come back from recess.  That's enough for you to prepare your

 9     cross-examination?

10             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, that is a generous offer of Mr. Lukic

11     to offer the 65 ter obligations that are found in 65 ter (G), which are

12     quite extensive, three days or four days before the beginning of the

13     holiday season when we will have nobody here essentially, because people

14     will be away and we will be considerably disabled in terms of staffing.

15     So, in our view, in order to prepare sufficiently, December 15th seems to

16     be a little bit far out for us.  In fact, we will be quite limited and

17     our preparations will be limited, because we have to obviously do

18     enormous preparations.

19             On the other -- to put it on the other foot, the Defence received

20     from the Prosecution a witness list, an exhibit list, a summary --

21     witness summaries, probably a year ahead of time, so to ask us to be

22     prepared adequately in light of two holidays that will take place

23     following the 15th, the Christian holiday and the Orthodox holiday, when

24     we will be understaffed in this office, really quite seriously restricts

25     us.  And in our view, Your Honour, between now, the Defence has had a

Page 9694

 1     considerable amount of time to consider their Defence.  We've had

 2     considerable number of gaps in the case due to the Prosecution, which I

 3     regret, but nevertheless, that has afforded the Defence considerable

 4     opportunity to prepare these submissions which they knew were coming.  In

 5     our view, Your Honour, the submissions under 65 ter (G) should be given

 6     to the Prosecution well before the 15th of December.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think we are perhaps going too deep

 8     into the matter.  Maybe the Chamber did not want this much detail, but it

 9     is even theoretically impossible for us to write the brief in less than

10     30 days from the end of the Prosecution case.  It's completely

11     impossible.  If we tried, it would end up with us writing a brief, a

12     pre-Defence brief, I mean, including the list of witnesses and the list

13     of exhibits, and the summaries, 65 ter summaries which we are supposed to

14     submit in the form of pre-Defence brief.  We have to make decisions, we

15     have to talk to people, and we have to prepare the documents.

16             Mr. Harmon says -- I'm happy actually to hear that.  You will

17     remember the beginning of the trial when the Defence said we needed four

18     days to prepare and there were certain hitches, and there were certain

19     windows within the trial that gave us time to prepare, but we did not

20     have them.  Even court recesses and holidays did not exist for this

21     Defence team.  I think these past three weeks when we did not have court

22     sessions were the first time I had the opportunity to work in the field.

23     And I will not be able to celebrate Christmas or any other holiday.  Now,

24     but that's life.  It's just coincidence that the end of the Prosecution

25     case falls at Christmas or just before Christmas, but I think the end of

Page 9695

 1     recess is after the new year.  They will have another three weeks after

 2     the holidays -- they will have another three weeks to prepare after the

 3     15th of December, I think if Mr. Harmon receives documents on the

 4     15th of December, he will still have ample time to prepare, and they will

 5     at least be able to prepare for the first witnesses.  That's what we did.

 6     Of course we didn't prepare for all the witnesses in advance.  We

 7     prepared for the first batch of witnesses.

 8             Our team, such as it is, cannot prepare a good quality, complete

 9     pre-Defence brief in less time.  We have to make certain 65 ter

10     submissions, and we have to make decisions, to be economical.  I really

11     mean it when I say that we cannot do to any earlier.  Perhaps we could

12     start with our case a week later, if that week would mean enough to the

13     Prosecution.  We could perhaps make opening statements and hold the

14     pre-Defence conference, but if we are to start on the 15th of January,

15     then we need at least a month.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I hear what -- no, you may sit.  I hear

17     what you say.  I actually do find it a little difficult to understand

18     that anybody comes into court to defend a case and hear Prosecution

19     version of the case and that person is not ready at the close of the

20     Prosecution case to call his witness, if he has any to call.  What I'm

21     trying to say is, I don't expect that only after the close of the

22     Prosecution case are you only going to interview witnesses; I expect this

23     work should have been going on all the time.  Even before the case

24     started, that you should be having certain witnesses that you have lined

25     up, at least your major witnesses, that you can reveal to the Prosecution

Page 9696

 1     much earlier with their summary statements and what have you.  If nothing

 2     else, at least to enable them to prepare for the first few witnesses.

 3     And I'm sure that you should be able to give those before the 15th.  Even

 4     if it's not the full list because, otherwise, unless you were coming to

 5     this case expecting an acquittal at the close of the Prosecution case,

 6     then I understand if you say, I don't have any witness at this stage.

 7     But if you are expecting that there is a case to meet and you may have to

 8     call witnesses, then I expect by the time you say, I accept your brief,

 9     Mr. Perisic, I'm going to defend you, you are having in your consultation

10     with him at that time, you have already found out from him who are the

11     witnesses that he can line up for himself, and you go and see those

12     witnesses and find out what they can say.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me tell you straightaway,

14     Your Honour Judge Moloto, we are in -- even back in the pre-trial stage,

15     I completed interviews with a great number of witnesses, in the pre-trial

16     stage when we had holidays.  But now I have to re-interview these

17     witnesses in a completely different way in view of the great number of

18     documents that have been exhibited here.  You have seen how many new

19     documents have been added to the 65 ter list since the beginning of the

20     trial.  It is not in dispute that these are very important documents.

21     And I can't now just leave it at the first interview when I had a

22     completely different picture back then about our case, about the matters,

23     and not re-interview these people now when I have a completely different

24     picture and knowledge about a great number of other documents.

25             Of course I have a number of people whom I want to put on the

Page 9697

 1     list certainly, and I can make available to Mr. Harmon a certain number

 2     of names to begin with, but that will not be meeting with the

 3     requirements, the complete 65 ter list and the complete list of witnesses

 4     and exhibits.

 5             My problem is that right now, my investigator, myself and my

 6     associates who know the Serbian language can go -- have to go through

 7     certain documents that have in the meantime been provided -- sorry, to

 8     decide whether to send them for translation or not.  That's a great

 9     amount of work.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm going to close the discussion.  Two points I

11     want to make with you.  One, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't

12     re-interview your witnesses.  You can -- you are perfect entitled to

13     re-interview them after all the documents you've seen.  Re-interviewing

14     them, does it interfere with your decision whether you are going to call

15     them or not?  If you have decided you are going to call them, you have

16     decided you are going to call them.  You can give the list to Mr. Harmon,

17     say, I'm going to be calling these witnesses.  All you need to do is just

18     to go and re-interview them, but you know who they are, they are the

19     witnesses.  So you can give the list.  You can give, I don't know, maybe

20     you might say the re-interview might interfere with the witness

21     summaries, depending on what topics they are likely to cover, given what

22     you are still going to talk to them that's new to them, but a witness

23     list and a witness summaries are things that change all the time as the

24     case goes on.  They have been doing it.  So as time goes on, you are

25     going to be adding, particularly they know in the beginning that you

Page 9698

 1     haven't given the full list.  You've given them the first few witnesses.

 2     Then they expect more witnesses to come later and what have you.  That's

 3     all I'm asking for, just so that we can get the case started.  Is that

 4     okay?  So then we are agreed on that.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's fine.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I ask one last point.  And I know it depends

 7     again on the number of witnesses that you are going to be calling, and I

 8     know that you may not have the full number right now, ball-park figures,

 9     what do you estimate the length of the Defence case to be?  One witness

10     and then you close?

11             MR. LUKIC:  No.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I really -- I really can't answer

14     this question.  I don't know how much I would commit myself and give you

15     a stick to beat me with later.  Anyway, we won't ask for the same number

16     of hours as you gave to the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I hold to you that one?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will not be asking -- I think over

19     300 hours have been approved to the Prosecution, I don't know how much

20     they asked for.  Let's not beat, possibly.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Possibly?  You are not able to give an idea?  Are

22     you able to give a figure, an idea --

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Several months.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Several months, whatever "several" means.

25     12 months would be several months?

Page 9699

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I really have to be very cautious.

 2     With a lot of reservation, I'm saying that if we work five days a week,

 3     if we don't make as many long breaks as the Prosecution made, because

 4     it's our aim also to finish the trial as soon as possible because of the

 5     pressure on Mr. Perisic as well, I think four or five months.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks for the idea.  We will not hold you to it.

 7     Thank you, but it gives us an idea.

 8             Mr. Harmon, are we likely to rest the Prosecution case next week?

 9             MR. HARMON:  Yes, subject to decisions on certain outstanding

10     motions, Your Honour.  But in terms of the calling of witnesses, yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This is the last witness who is coming?

12             MR. HARMON:  Yes, the next witness will be the last witness.  And

13     I have informed the Court Officer that we are going to review the

14     evidence of this witness in relation to the proposed evidence of the next

15     witness and we will make a decision -- I will inform Your Honours and

16     counsel as to whether we will proceed with that witness.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  So for now we can adjourn to Monday on the

18     understanding that we may or may not sit depending on your decisions?

19             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I guess we've dealt with all the issues.

21     Are there any issue that the parties would like to raise.

22             Mr. Harmon?

23             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, there is one issue that needs to be

24     addressed at some point.  There are a number of MFI exhibits that are

25     still in the record.  Obviously the Prosecution's position is those MFIs

Page 9700

 1     should be reserved.  The Defence has taken a certain position in respect

 2     of those.  That's a matter that still needs to be resolved.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  And I guess that's a matter that

 4     you would like to resolve before you rest.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Yes, in the technical sense absolutely, Your Honour.

 6     And we have been having -- we have been engaged in some discussions in

 7     terms of those MFIs, we continue to and will continue to be engaged in

 8     those discussions and we want to resolve this.  I think there will be a

 9     certain number of those exhibits for which there's no agreement and we

10     then will have to make submissions to the Trial Chamber.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now let me -- I've been putting pressure on

12     Mr. Lukic.  Let me see if I can put some pressure on you.  Do you think

13     you can come up with a suggested resolution of those MFIs by Monday so

14     that whether or not we have a witness on Monday, we can resolve that on

15     Monday, sit and resolve those things?

16             MR. HARMON:  I think we can resolve some others, assuming there's

17     time to sit down and discuss with the Defence what is outstanding.  I

18     think we will identify a certain number of those documents for which

19     there will be no agreement whatsoever, and I think we will get probably

20     the 85 per cent solution by Monday.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the Chamber is not sitting tomorrow and

22     Friday.  Can you use that time to do that?

23             MR. HARMON:  Of course, Your Honour.  Our view is we've asked

24     that those -- all of those documents be admitted.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I know you have.

Page 9701

 1             MR. HARMON:  Obviously, the Defence has certain objections as to

 2     them to formulate those.  Our submission was, at the time, that they be

 3     admitted into evidence.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't argue the admission now.

 5             MR. HARMON:  No, I'm not.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Try to resolve that and let's see if we can

 7     talk about it on Monday.

 8             Any issues on your side, Mr. Lukic?  Nothing.  Thank you very

 9     much.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just say that we are indeed

11     having talks about these MFIs.  I believe we'll resolve some of them this

12     week.  And let me also say that there are some other MFIs that cover

13     groups of documents to which the Defence has a general objection.  We'll

14     probably have to have arguments in the courtroom.  Part of these

15     documents were dealt with by Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, part of them I did

16     myself, but perhaps at the end of next week we can find one day to solve

17     it in the courtroom.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  You probably could find a

19     day even earlier than the end of next week if we are having only one

20     witness who is likely not to testify, we don't know.  And you have two

21     days in this week.

22             Okay.  Thank you for that.  Then we'll stand adjourned to Monday

23     the 9th of November at 2.00 in the afternoon.  Courtroom II.  Court

24     adjourned.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.32 p.m.

Page 9702

 1                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of

 2                           November, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.