Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10083

 1                           Thursday, 25 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar -- Madam Registrar, will you please call the

 7     case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have the appearances

12     for the day starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. SAXON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon, Mark

14     Harmon, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.  And for the

16     Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

18     afternoon to everyone participating in the proceedings.  Mr. Perisic is

19     represented today in the courtroom by Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, and

20     our assistant Boris Zorko.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.  Just for the

22     record, to note that the Chamber is still sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis

23     in Judge Picard's absence.

24             And good afternoon to you, Mr. Simic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and

Page 10084

 1     good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.  And, Mr. Simic,

 3     once again to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration you

 4     made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole

 5     truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 6             Mr. Lukic, sometime in the middle of yesterday's you had already

 7     used some five hours 20 minutes, and I am not quite sure how much you

 8     have used up to now.  Are you still going to be long?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am going to tell you shortly, Your

10     Honours.  I know how much time we have envisaged for this witness.

11     Actually, I would like to curtail the testimony of some other witnesses

12     by virtue of this witness.  Primarily by going through certain documents

13     today we are considerably going to shorten another evidence and hopefully

14     I will be finished by the end of the first session today.

15                           WITNESS:  MIODRAG SIMIC [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:  [Continued]

18        Q.   [Interpretation] General, good afternoon.

19        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have given the documents to the OTP

21     for them to review these documents.  The documents that I'm going to look

22     together with Mr. Simic today which will expedite the proceedings.  We

23     have given the binder in the B/C/S to the OTP but please can we have it

24     back to the witness.  We are going to follow the order of the documents,

25     and this is the first one.  Actually, we didn't manage to upload it

Page 10085

 1     because we have only received the translation today, and because of that,

 2     I have hard copies for all parties concerned.  It will probably be

 3     uploaded in the course of today and then we shall have it in e-court.

 4     All the other documents already have their English translations and are

 5     in e-court.

 6        Q.   General, we are going to continue with what we started yesterday.

 7     We are going to go through a number of documents relating to the work of

 8     the operations centre in certain relevant periods of times, and I will

 9     ask you some questions.  The first document that I would like to show

10     you, but for the time being we shall only see the B/C/S version on the

11     screen, that's 65 ter 01254D.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is this the one which you have just given us the

13     hard copy of?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's a report of the second

15     administration of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army strictly

16     confidential 189 of 9th July, 1995.

17        Q.   I am going to read only one portion which is going to be related

18     to the next document.  So if you look at this passage in the middle where

19     units of the 1st Corps are being mentioned, General, can you tell us

20     something about this which reads:

21             "Units of the first K and parts of the 3rd, 2nd, and 7th KMV"

22     et cetera.  What does that mean?

23        A.   Units of the 1st Corps and elements of the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th

24     Corps of the Muslim army continue preparation for the continuation of

25     offensive activities aimed at lifting the blockade of the Muslim quarter

Page 10086

 1     of Sarajevo.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please read the last sentence in this same

 3     passage.  It starts with "units."

 4        A.   "Units of the 28th Division from Srebrenica opened fire from the

 5     protected area with the support of the Dutch Battalion and they also used

 6     APCs of the Ukrainian battalion stationed in Zepa."

 7        Q.   Let us just remind ourselves that these are intelligence reports

 8     based on which the operations centre produces its own report.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would tender this document into

10     evidence but pending the English translation it will only going to be

11     MFI'd.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Document is admitted into evidence.  Marked for

13     identification.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00216 marked

15     for identification.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We see that this document was dated

18     9th of July, 1995, and this is important for our next document which is

19     65 ter -- Prosecution, excuse me, Defence Exhibit 00490D.

20        Q.   What we are looking at is a daily operations report from your

21     centre dated the 10th of July, 1995.  Can you tell me which period is

22     covered in this report?

23        A.   Yesterday, I said that daily operations reports covered 24 hours

24     starting from 0600 hours on the previous day until 0600 hours of the

25     current day.

Page 10087

 1        Q.   So this would be for the 9th of July?

 2        A.   This is the daily operations report recorded on the 10th because

 3     it was completed during that night, a new day started, and that is when

 4     it was logged in the operations centre, but it refers to the period of

 5     daylight and the night of the 10th of July.

 6        Q.   Can you please now look at paragraph 3, particularly its last

 7     part.  This sentence --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does it relate to the night of the 10th of July or

 9     the night of the 9th of July?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This refers to half of the night of

11     the 10th from zero hundred hours until 2400 hours, which means from 6.00

12     in the morning on the 9th until 6.00 in the morning on the 10th.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   We have read this sentence in the previous document, and now I am

16     going to ask you if this sentence contained in the operations report, has

17     it actually been copied or just slightly modified from that previous

18     document?

19        A.   I provided a detailed explanation yesterday of the methodology of

20     drafting reports, and when the shift meets at 2100 hours with duty

21     officers from intelligence and operations administration, they extract

22     from that report only those most relevant elements for the Chief of Staff

23     and you can see this same sentence here saying that units from the 28th

24     Division of Srebrenica opened fire from the protected area with the

25     support of the Dutch Battalion and used the APCs of the Ukrainian

Page 10088

 1     Battalion stationed in Zepa.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Simic, once again, we would like to finish

 3     quickly so can you just listen to the question really and just focus in

 4     answering the question.  Don't tell us what you told us yesterday, just

 5     say if the question was is this sentence mentioned here or just modified

 6     slightly, if it's yes, say yes, no, no.  Then we can move on.  Okay.

 7     Thank you, sir.  I am sure you'd like to go home quickly too.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honours.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   One more comment on this document, under item situation on the

11     state border it is mentioned that the UN monitoring mission visited

12     Zalvjne [phoen] border post of the 15th Battalion Bajina Basta and that

13     there were no remarks.  If the UN monitors had remarks, would those

14     remarks be included in the report that was to be sent to the General

15     Staff?

16        A.   By all means.

17        Q.   One more question relating to your testimony yesterday and the

18     day before yesterday, you mentioned border battalions in Bajina Basta

19     being part of the 1st Army.  To whom was the Uzice Corps of the Yugoslav

20     Army subordinated?

21        A.   In the Drina valley south of the Sava river we had the 15th

22     Border Battalion, 16th Battalion in Loznica and Bajina Basta.  This is

23     the line between areas of responsibility of the 1st and 2nd Army.  The

24     Battalion in Bajina Basta belonged to the Uzice Corps, and the Uzice

25     Corps was part of the 2nd Army of Podgorica.

Page 10089

 1        Q.   Have you ever heard of Rumenko?

 2        A.   General Rumenko Disovic was for a time --

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have exhibit number for

 4     this document.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  Yes,

 6     Mr. Saxon.

 7             MR. SAXON:  I don't object to the tendering of the document, just

 8     we are still waiting for an answer to the question.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It wasn't recorded precisely.  I

10     maybe put the interpreters in an awkward situation.  If you can please

11     repeat what you said about General Disovic.

12        A.   In this period General Disovic was commander of the Uzice Corps.

13     I can't tell you the exact dates from to.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  The document is admitted

15     into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00217.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document that I would like

19     the witness to see as well as the Chamber is 65 ter, Defence Exhibit

20     00682D.  It's an intelligence report of 10th July, 1995.

21        Q.   Was this report also submitted to your operations centre?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no questions relating to this

24     document, Your Honours.  I just would like to tender this document into

25     evidence.

Page 10090

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 2     number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00218.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document is also from the

 5     same group, 65 ter 00860D.

 6        Q.   I hope, General, that you have the documents in the right order,

 7     the way that I've been referring to them.  This is an intelligence report

 8     compiled on the 11th of July, 1995.  Again it's a document of the second

 9     administration.  I would like to ask you for your comment on the last

10     paragraph on the first page, General.  Just a moment, please, let me have

11     a look.  The English version.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It must be on the second

13     page.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have the second page

15     in English.  Yes.

16        Q.   Could we please have your comments with regard to this

17     information.  Was it noteworthy in terms of this report of the operations

18     centre, namely the Dutch aircraft to the south of Srebrenica?

19        A.   Most certainly, yes.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document as

21     well, please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

23     an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00219.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document that I would like

Page 10091

 1     you to have a look at is 65 ter 00683D.

 2        Q.   It is an intelligence report, also of the second administration

 3     dated the 12th of July, 1995, and I'd like to dwell on this document a

 4     bit longer.  As far as I can see, if we look at these intelligence

 5     reports if they are sent to the operations centre, well, whose forces are

 6     you interested in describing, whose activities in the reports of the

 7     operations centre?  Are you interested in the activities of the BH Army,

 8     the Muslim army, or the Army of Republika Srpska?  What is primarily the

 9     function of what is contained in the reports of the operations centre?

10        A.   The intelligence report is a report of the operations

11     administration, and it follows the other side, the adversary.

12        Q.   In the first two paragraphs we see that there's a detailed

13     description of the units of the BH Army and in the third sentence it

14     says:

15             "During the morning of the 12th of July, 1995, units of the Drina

16     Corps of the VRS entered Potocari."

17             Isn't that right?  And then there is further information about

18     the Croatian army.  This report of the 12th of July of the second

19     administration, when was it processed in your daily operations report?

20        A.   It should have been processed in the daily operations report of

21     the 13th.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First of all, could we please get a

23     number for this document.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

25     an exhibit number.

Page 10092

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00220.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now the next document that I would

 3     like to show is document that is marked 65 ter 00491D.

 4        Q.   This is now a report of the first administration, the operations

 5     centre.  The date is the 13th of July, 1995.  General, I'm glad that you

 6     have both documents in front of you so that you can compare them.  In the

 7     first part there is a reference to the activities of the armed forces of

 8     neighbouring countries.  Is there anything that was not included and

 9     where the report of the operations centre does not coincide with what the

10     intelligence report says?

11        A.   For the most part, the content is there, although it may have

12     been worded differently in the daily operations report because that is a

13     result of the sublimation of the material involved.

14        Q.   The sentence we read out a few moments ago from the intelligence

15     report and the third paragraph, namely:

16             "During the morning of the 12th of July, 1995 the units of the

17     Drina Corps entered the village of Potocari."

18             I do not see that in the daily operations report, right?  All the

19     rest is identical.

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry if this was a leading

22     question, but I thought that the content of the document cannot really be

23     challenged.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, that means that the

25     document is processed in terms of what is important for the Chief of

Page 10093

 1     General Staff to know and what is not.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Very well.  Could I please have your comments, we don't need to

 4     read it out loud, but could you give us your comments on the first two

 5     paragraphs of the second section, the situation at the state border.

 6     Could we just hear your comments because the activities of the monitoring

 7     mission are mentioned.

 8        A.   The monitoring mission observed the border and the situation at

 9     the border and also the observance of the border regime.  We see here

10     that they inspected a bridge that had been taken out and that was not

11     being used.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all microphones

13     please be switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you remember whether this was an every-day activity?

16        A.   I cannot say that it was an every-day activity, but it was

17     frequent.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have this document

19     admitted into evidence, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

21     number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00221.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the interpreters request that when the

24     witness is speaking, all other microphones be switched off, so if you

25     would please remember that.

Page 10094

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Certainly.  Could we now please have

 2     a look at the next document, and that is 65 ter 00690D.  It's a Defence

 3     document.

 4        Q.   This is an intelligence report of the second administration dated

 5     the 13th of July, 1995.  And I would like you to have a look at the first

 6     paragraph, General.  Because of the relevance of the documents that are

 7     yet to come, I'm going to read it out loud.

 8             The first paragraph reads as follows:

 9             "Units of the Army of Republika Srpska have routed the 28th PD" -

10     I assume it's infantry division - "of the Muslim army from Srebrenica.

11     In this area, the M/V forces," probably the Muslim army forces, "are no

12     longer putting up an organised defence.  The routed elements of the 28th

13     infantry division (5.000 to 6.000 men) made during the night of the 12th

14     and 13th of July an unsuccessful element to break through in the

15     direction of Kladanj and Tuzla.  The largest group was surrounded in the

16     sector of Kamenica and the village of Siljkovici and was given an

17     ultimatum to surrender.  In the fighting so far, about 500 members of the

18     M/V, Muslim army, have been taken prisoner.  From the Srebrenica area, so

19     far about 50 per cent of the Muslim residents have been evacuated.  The

20     evacuation of the remaining residents is impeded by shortage of

21     vehicles."

22             General, for you at the operations centre, was the movement of

23     the 28th Division of the Muslim army an important military movement at

24     the time?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10095

 1        Q.   Why?

 2        A.   We know that Zepa is near the border, sorry not Zepa, Srebrenica,

 3     I do apologise.  It is near the border with the Federal Republic of

 4     Yugoslavia, and these forces that I described here during their

 5     withdrawal and during their attempted break-through, part of them could

 6     have headed across the border towards the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 7     Therefore, it was important to take measures of heightened security along

 8     the state border so that such armed persons would not cross the border,

 9     or rather, even if they were to cross the border, that we act in

10     accordance with the border service rules.

11        Q.   And what is the border service rule, if such persons cross the

12     border of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

13        A.   I explained yesterday that in the border belt that is the capture

14     and surrender of these persons, the disarming, and their hand over to the

15     organs of the Ministry of the Interior.  At that point our authority over

16     those persons ends.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could I please tender

18     this document into evidence, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

20     number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00222.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So that was the report of the 13th of

23     July.  Could we now look at Defence document 65 ter 00492D.

24        Q.   You are going to have the report of the operations centre of the

25     first administration from the next day, the 14th of July, 1995.  I don't

Page 10096

 1     want to read it, but I'm just going to ask you whether the third

 2     paragraph in your daily operations report which corresponds to the third

 3     paragraph of the English version, does it faithfully reflect what we read

 4     out a few moments ago from the intelligence report on this particular

 5     topic, if I can put it that way?

 6        A.   In view of the importance of the information involved, this was

 7     fully reflected in the daily operations report for the 14th of July,

 8     1995.

 9        Q.   I am going to ask you for another brief comment.  Actually, we

10     don't really need to deal with it now.  I was thinking of a comment

11     regarding the state border, but it's actually similar to what we've

12     already heard.  Or actually, let it not appear that I'm trying to skip

13     something.  Your comment regarding the monitoring mission, it says here

14     what they were supposed to do.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is section number

16     2 of this document.  Situation on the state border.  The first paragraph.

17        Q.   I don't want to read it, I'd just like to hear the witness's

18     comment.

19        A.   What can be seen here is that the members of the monitoring

20     mission were allowed to enter the border belt and to monitor the regime

21     along the border.  And what is written here is what they actually did,

22     what they observed.  Also, there were no violations of the border regime.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have a number for this

25     document.

Page 10097

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 2     number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00223.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please now have Defence

 6     document 00691D.

 7        Q.   This is an intelligence report now dated the 14th of July, 1995.

 8     I would like to draw your attention, Mr. Simic, to a particular paragraph

 9     that is towards the end, Your Honours.  The last two paragraphs in the

10     English version, I don't really need to have to read out into the

11     transcript.  But could you please give us your comment.  It has do with

12     two particular pieces of information received by the intelligence

13     administration.

14        A.   Yes.  And it also says that the crushed parts of the 28th

15     Division are continuing towards Kladanj and Tuzla and they are trying to

16     get out of --

17        Q.   The term used is they are trying to avoid being destroyed by the

18     VRS.  Is that customary usage, this particular word in military

19     terminology?

20        A.   Yes, absolutely.  And one more thing should be added, that is

21     what happens if they are asked to surrender and they put up resistance

22     rather than surrender.

23        Q.   We also have some information on Zepa here.  That was an

24     ultimatum that was not honoured, and then the offensive against Zepa

25     started.  Was this an information that was important for being entered

Page 10098

 1     into your operations report?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not hear the

 3     answer at all.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have a number for this

 5     document.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreter said they could not hear the

 7     answer at all, so we don't have it interpreted.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I'll repeat the question, General.  Was this information

10     customarily used in military terminology, destroying enemy units?

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  The document is admitted into

13     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

14             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Saxon.

16             MR. SAXON:  I'm not objecting to the admission of the document,

17     but Mr. Lukic actually asked for an answer to a question that had been

18     answered.  The question that was not answered is at line -- begins at

19     line 17 of page 15 of the LiveNote.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may have a minute, please.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Just to be sure what you are talking about,

22     Mr. Saxon, line 17 is the middle of an answer which starts at line 16 on

23     my screen yes, yes, absolutely, and one more thing should be added, that

24     is, what happens if they are asked to surrender and they put up

25     resistance rather than surrender.

Page 10099

 1             MR. SAXON:  I beg the Court's pardon, Your Honour, the question

 2     is on page 15, lines 21 to 22:

 3             "Was this an information that was important for being entered

 4     into your operations report?"  Then the interpreter says, "We could not

 5     hear the answer at all."

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, okay.

 7             MR. SAXON:  I don't believe that question --

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, now I've found it.

 9        Q.   My question referred to Zepa, and I asked about this piece of

10     information relating to Zepa and, please, General, repeat your answer.

11     What is written here in relation to an offensive on Zepa, was that a

12     piece of information deemed important enough to be entered into the

13     report of the operations centre?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Have we given it a number?  May it

16     please be given an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00224.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter Defence

20     document 00493D.

21        Q.   That's an intelligence report of the first administration

22     operations centre of the 15th of July.  General, please focus on the

23     middle part where it says, The broken up parts, et cetera.  I'm not going

24     to read it.  But what is written here by the operations centre completely

25     corresponds to what we read a minute ago in the report from the second

Page 10100

 1     administration?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

 5     into evidence, please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 7     number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00225.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have on our screens

11     00692D, Defence document.  That's a report produced by the second

12     administration on the 15th of July, 1995.

13        Q.   I'm going to read out only paragraph 3, which reads:

14             "Elements of the units of the 2nd Corps."  General I'm reading

15     full names and you correct me if these abbreviations do not correspond to

16     the expansions.  "(254th and 255th Brigade) mounted unsuccessful attacks

17     on mount Majevica and along the Kalesija-Memici axis.  Their aim was to

18     bring in routed elements of the 28th Division from Srebrenica who have

19     been trying to break out of the encirclement in the direction of Tuzla.

20     Small elements of this division managed to get through to Zepa."

21             According to you was this information also necessary to be

22     included in the daily report?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I have a number for this document

25     as well, Your Honours, please.

Page 10101

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

 2     an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00226.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I now have document 65 ter

 6     00494D.  It's a Defence document.

 7        Q.   This is now a daily operations report for the 16th of July, 1995

 8     covering the period stated beneath the title on the document.  Tell me,

 9     General, in this daily operations report, is the information that I read

10     to you from the intelligence report contained in this report as well, the

11     information relating to the 28th Division, et cetera?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Can you please comment on a different subject.  Can you please

14     read it to yourself, and I will draw the attention of the Trial Chamber

15     what is stated in chapter 2 entitled "The situation at the state border."

16     So, General, please can we have your comment of this whole chapter?  Or

17     actually, in the first and second paragraphs?

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we see the chapter in the English version,

19     please, on the screen.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's probably page 2 in

21     English.  It begins at the bottom of the first page and then goes on to

22     the second page.  Can you please scroll down a bit more.  Yes, that's it.

23     This is where it starts.  And the next paragraph is on the next page.  So

24     just give some time to the Judges to read it.

25        Q.   General, can you comment this information about the situation at

Page 10102

 1     the state border?

 2        A.   In a nutshell, it says here that members of the MUP captured two

 3     members of the Muslim army with the weapons, and they passed on this

 4     information to the border troops and that they had come in Mali Zvornik

 5     which was in their area of responsibility.

 6        Q.   Also important to include in this daily report was this piece of

 7     information about Resid Simonovic who got wounded and the intelligence

 8     that he conveyed.  You can see that at the beginning of page 2, and it

 9     also relates to MUP activities.  No, sorry, the army.  This is the

10     intelligence obtained by the border units.  You don't have to read all of

11     it.

12        A.   They captured Resid Simonovic --

13        Q.   You don't have to read it.  So it was the border units who

14     obtained this intelligence?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please switch off the

17     microphone while the witness is speaking.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a number for this

19     document.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we give it a number, the interpreters once

21     again ask that you switch off your microphone when the witness is

22     speaking.  May we please have a number for this document.  It is admitted

23     into evidence.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00227.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 10103

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have on our

 2     screens document 65 ter 00693D.

 3        Q.   That's an intelligence report of the second administration of the

 4     16th of July, 1995.  It's a Defence document.  Towards the bottom of page

 5     1, we can see the paragraph which begins with "forces of the 2nd Corps."

 6     I'm particularly interested in this paragraph, and it reads:

 7             "Forces of the 2nd Corps of the Muslim army are continuing

 8     without success to lift the blockade of the forces of the 28th Division

 9     who were routed in the Srebrenica enclave and are encircled in the

10     general area of Zvornik."

11             Was this piece of information in view of the previous pieces of

12     information also important enough to be included in this entire report?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have a number for this

15     document.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

17     a number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00228.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document is Defence document

21     00696D.

22        Q.   An intelligence report of the second administration dated 17th of

23     July, 1995.  I'm going to read paragraph 1 starting from the second

24     sentence:

25             "Forces of the 2nd Corps of the ABH army carried out an attack of

Page 10104

 1     lesser intensity in the area of the corridor and on several axes on mount

 2     Majevica.  In the area of Baljkovica and Memici, they managed to

 3     penetrate the VRS defence and enable the pulling out of the routed forces

 4     of the 28th Division from Srebrenica."

 5             Is this information important enough to be included into an

 6     operations report?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

 8             MR. SAXON:  No need, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were you just tired of sitting down?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I tender this document into

11     evidence.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  It's admitted.  May it please be given

13     an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00229.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So that was the report of the 17th of

17     July.  The next document is 00495D, 65 ter.  That's a report of the

18     sector for operations of the General Staff.  It's a daily operations

19     report dated 18th July, 1995.

20        Q.   Can you see in this document the sentence that I read out to you

21     from the previous report?  Has it been inserted into this daily

22     operations report?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Entirely as we have read it?  Yes?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10105

 1        Q.   With respect to this daily operations report, I would like you to

 2     comment regarding the situation at the state border, particularly

 3     sentence 1.  Does it correspond or is it consistent with what you

 4     described to us taking place at the border?

 5        A.   Yes.  We can see that two persons, armed persons were captured at

 6     the border, and it says that he was going to be handed over to the MUP in

 7     Loznica.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I have a number for this

 9     document, please, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  The document is admitted.  May it please be

11     given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00230.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to skip the next document,

15     that is P2603.  So there's no need for us to have a look at it.  I'm

16     going to ask the witness to move on to the next document.  That is a

17     report of the operations centre on the 19th of July, 1995.  And the

18     document is marked 00496D.

19        Q.   This document does not contain information about what we focused

20     on earlier on, but I'm going to put a general question to you.  When

21     looking at this document, can other important actions be seen happening

22     in the area at the time, not only in the territory of Croatia, but also

23     in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Could you please tell me in

24     general terms?

25        A.   Yes, absolutely, and at other borders as well that intensified

Page 10106

 1     activity can be seen.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Could we please have this

 3     document admitted.  I have no further questions of this witness with

 4     regard to this document.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  It's admitted.  May it

 6     please be given an exhibit number.

 7             Sorry, Mr. Harmon.

 8             MR. HARMON:  May I just clarify one previous testimony, it was in

 9     respect of the document.  I'm sorry, bear with me for just a minute.  It

10     deals with the 65 ter 495, it's referred to on line -- page 22, line 13,

11     and I just am having difficulty locating it in particular document, a

12     reference that Mr. Lukic made.  Page 23, line 1 where it says:  "Yes, we

13     can see two person, armed persons were captured in the border."  And it

14     says:  "He was going to be handed over to the MUP in Loznica."  And I was

15     wondering if he could refer me to where the reference is to armed persons

16     in that document.  I'm just having difficulty locating it.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you are probably going to have to

18     recall Exhibit D230.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, the document that is

20     Exhibit D230 now, 495 was its 65 ter number.  It's on the first page in

21     B/C/S, and I believe that is the case in English too.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess --

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Situation at the state border --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Recall it on the screen, sir, so that Mr. Harmon

25     can see it.

Page 10107

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have to go back to the previous

 2     document, yes.  D230, and could we please have the English version on the

 3     screen as well.  And do you see the situation at the state border?

 4     [English] First paragraph, last sentence.

 5             MR. HARMON:  My concern is in the text of the transcript, maybe

 6     it was not interpreted properly, but at page 23, line 1, it says:  "We

 7     can see two persons, armed persons, were captured at the border," and

 8     that's what I read in the first paragraph is that there is some -- a

 9     single person without weapons who was captured.  So that's my confusion.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess it's in the next page, Mr. Lukic.  I saw

11     something like -- somebody and the lieutenant, and the lieutenant had a

12     gun on him on the document.  Can we go to the next page, please.

13     Mr. Lukic is not listening.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right.  The next paragraph,

15     another person is being referred to.  However, this second piece of

16     information does not pertain to the same border crossing.  Therefore,

17     there will not be a mistake in the transcript.  The witness mentioned two

18     persons and one had to do with one particular incident, and the other one

19     is a completely different incident at the Montenegrin border.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, sir, the important thing is that the

21     Prosecution wants to see that passage on the exhibit.  They are asking to

22     be directed to the paragraph that relates to that story.  I thought it

23     was on this page, but it is not.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I just have a look, please, at

25     the transcript, Your Honours, so that I can find the reference.

Page 10108

 1             MR. HARMON:  Page 23, line 1.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Simic, lest there be any misunderstanding, could you please

 4     give us your comment in view of what the transcript says.  We are talking

 5     about this information on the situation at the state border.  Which

 6     incidents -- at which locations -- you don't have to describe them.  We

 7     just have to know exactly what the case is because there's bit of

 8     conclusion?

 9        A.   "In the area of Banja Koviljaca a Muslim soldier was caught

10     Selimovic, Sead without any weapons.  Borne --"

11        Q.   You don't have to read it out.

12        A.   "-- wearing civilian clothes.  He denies that he was a member of

13     the armed forces, he was handed over to the organs of the Ministry of the

14     Interior of Loznica."

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Simic, please listen to your lawyer when he

16     talks to you.  He says you don't have to read that.  He wants you to

17     comment.  Now you have read it to us, can you comment?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   The second piece of information in the next paragraph, what

20     location, what border crossing does that refer to?

21        A.   It refers to the 10th Border Battalion, Ulcinj, if that's the

22     area.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether we've clarified

24     the matter now in view of the sentence that was originally recorded in

25     the transcript.

Page 10109

 1             MR. HARMON:  Well, I think it has been clarified because the

 2     sentence at page 23, line 1, isn't reflected in the exhibit.  So what the

 3     general read was the first part of the situation at the state border that

 4     refers to a single individual who was captured without weapons.  So I

 5     think if that's the reference that the general was relying upon when he

 6     answered your question at -- in his answer at 23, then it has been

 7     clarified.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] But at line 23 -- at page

 9     23 he is talking of two persons but here it's one person.

10             MR. HARMON:  That's correct.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I've seen on one of the exhibits where there's

12     mention of two persons, one of whom was a lieutenant and in whose

13     possession what gun was found.

14             MR. HARMON:  I think that was one of the previous exhibits, Your

15     Honour, but it's not this particular exhibit.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not this particular.

17             MR. HARMON:  No sir.  In fact, I'll see if I can find it.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For me this comment seems to be appropriate to

19     that piece of evidence.

20             MR. HARMON:  Well, I read that --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The reference to two persons here at line 1, page

22     23.

23             MR. HARMON:  Well, it may well be.  That's how the witness

24     interpreter it, Your Honour, but the way the questioning has been going

25     sequentially by document by document, at page 22, line 12, Mr. Lukic

Page 10110

 1     started by referring to this particular document which is dated the 18th

 2     of July, and he asked a series of quick questions relating to it.  And he

 3     says, with regard to this daily operations report, which was 65 ter 495

 4     I'd like you to comment on the situation at the state border, and the

 5     witness then gave an answer referring to two armed men who were captured.

 6     And what I was having difficulty with was trying to locate that reference

 7     in this particular document.  I think the situation has been clarified at

 8     this point.  I think the witness is referring to the first paragraph

 9     under the situation at the state border that refers to one unarmed

10     person.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Harmon.  Did we give a

12     number to 00496D?  May it please be given a number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00231.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, please.  Could I just

16     have a look at the number, please.  Now, 496, that's the 65 ter number.

17     That's the document that we've just given a number, right?  Thank you.

18     Now we are looking at a Prosecution exhibit.  [English] 2604.

19     [Interpretation] I would just like to inform my friends of the

20     Prosecution that 698 was our 65 ter number for this document as well.

21     Maybe we should point that out for them, but this is a Prosecution

22     exhibit now.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you are calling P2604?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P2604.

25        Q.   This is yet another intelligence report.  The date is the 19th of

Page 10111

 1     July, 1995.  A brief question, General.  I would be interested in the

 2     information contained in paragraph 2 concerning the Ukrainian Battalion

 3     of UNPROFOR.  In your view was this information also relevant for

 4     inclusion in the daily operations report?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have a number --

 7     sorry, sorry.  It is a Prosecution exhibit already.  My next document is

 8     yet another Prosecution Exhibit, P32605.  We also have it on our 65 ter

 9     list, 699 is our number for it.

10        Q.   I'd just like a brief comment from you, General.  It has to do

11     with what we've been following all along.  Towards the middle it says:

12             "The routed remains of the 28th Muslim division (Srebrenica) are

13     trying to get into the area of Kladanj and Tuzla in groups."

14             In your view is this information relevant?

15        A.   I've lost continuity, Mr. Lukic, in terms of following the

16     numbers.  496D is the next document that I have.

17        Q.   I see.  Look at the second document after that dated the 20th of

18     July.  Look at the dates and you can find your way more easily that way.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Around the middle of the page you will see the sentence that I

21     read out.  "The routed remnants of the 28th Muslim division (Srebrenica)

22     are attempting to get through to the areas of Kladanj and Tuzla in

23     groups."  In your view, is this also relevant for inclusion in the

24     report?

25        A.   I cannot answer with an explicit yes because I don't have the

Page 10112

 1     report of the 21st, the daily operations report of the 21st, so I cannot

 2     see that.  At any rate, it should be relevant.

 3        Q.   Yes, well, that's my question.  If I had it, it would be easier

 4     for me too.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at one more

 6     document before the break.

 7        Q.   Please skip two documents, General.  Look at the daily operations

 8     centre report of 22nd of July, 1995.  And the 65 ter number is 660D.  Let

 9     us just wait for the document to appear on the screen.

10             General, I would just be interested in your brief comment in

11     relation to the second section.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could it please be shown to the Court

13     as well.  That is the situation on the state border.  So it's probably

14     page 2 in the English version.  And in the Serbian version as well.

15        Q.   You see that the members of the mission have no objections, but

16     right in the middle it says:

17             "On the 21st of July, information was received from Ljubovija,

18     et cetera, and this gives specific information about a convoy."

19             Is that important information?  Rather, I assume that -- oh, yes,

20     yes, this was my question.  Sorry about that.  This information was

21     received from the border battalion, right?  I do beg your pardon.

22        A.   This information was received from the report of the army

23     commander.

24        Q.   In whose area of responsibility?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10113

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not an answer to the question, Mr. Simic.

 2     The question is in whose area of responsibility?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is in the area of

 4     responsibility of the command of the 1st Army.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not received directly from

 7     the border people, but the --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

 9     sentence.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters didn't hear the end of your

11     sentence.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Lukic's microphone please be switched

13     off.  There is a lot of background noise.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The report was not received from

15     the border people but from the report of the commander of the 1st Army in

16     whose area of responsibility that border unit is.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.

18             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would suggest that we take the

20     break now.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you deal with this 0060D?

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have it admitted into

23     evidence, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

25     given an exhibit number.

Page 10114

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00232.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  We'll take a break and come back at

 3     4.00.  Court adjourned.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] General, we are going to skip a

 8     couple of documents and move to a report of the operations centre of 26th

 9     August, 1995.  It's 65 ter 00661D.

10        Q.   I would kindly ask you just to comment the first paragraph in

11     chapter 2, the situation at the state border.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's on the next page in English.

13     No, no.  Yes.  The first paragraph, Your Honours, on this page.

14        Q.   I would just like to hear your comment on the first sentence in

15     this paragraph.

16        A.   It has been noted here that organs of the state border service

17     have found a raft on the river.  There were no persons on the raft, and

18     that they were -- they took it to the border post.

19        Q.   Why did they do that?  What was their duty in this particular

20     situation?

21        A.   Since this was a means for illegal crossing the border, they did

22     it in order to prevent such kind of crossings and for that purpose they

23     took the raft to the border post.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a number for this

25     document.

Page 10115

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

 2     an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00233.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document from this group is

 6     65 ter 662D.

 7        Q.   It's a report by the operations centre of the 30th of August

 8     1995, and I'm particularly interested in paragraph 4.  I'm going read the

 9     first sentence.

10             "After the latest artillery attack on the centre of Sarajevo, the

11     situation in the former BH has become even more complicated.  Because of

12     the allegedly obtained evidence that the Serbs are guilty of the massacre

13     of civilians, a decision was taken at the level of the commanders of NATO

14     for south Europe theatre of war and of UNPROFOR, a decision was taken to

15     launch aerial attacks on PVO systems, KM, command posts, weapons and

16     military equipment depots, and VP."  I suppose this is military

17     installations?

18        A.   This is firing positions.

19        Q.   Firing positions of the VRS.  Do you know what this information

20     refers to, and can you explain this particular part of the sentence which

21     reads "allegedly obtained evidence."  Could you comment on this, please.

22        A.   This intelligence was received from the intelligence service.

23     The word "allegedly" was used because they didn't know where this

24     information had come from, but it turns out that they already decided who

25     the culprit was and that they should be punished.

Page 10116

 1        Q.   Can you be more precise, please, in your answer.  Who received

 2     this information from whom about culpability, and who should punish whom?

 3     Could you please be more specific?

 4        A.   This intelligence was received from the intelligence

 5     administration through its intelligence organs.  It was passed on here.

 6     Those who were on the spot and on the ground where they collect this

 7     intelligence from their operatives on the ground say that UNPROFOR and

 8     NATO had accused the Serbs for committing this massacre in Sarajevo and

 9     that a decision had already been taken to launch strikes on Serbian

10     positions.  Even more specifically, the positions of the Army of the

11     Republika Srpska.

12        Q.   General, have you heard about the incident at the Markale

13     marketplace?

14        A.   Yes.  That was extensively covered by the media.

15        Q.   Do you remember what reports were said in the media about who

16     caused this incident?

17        A.   The print press mainly alleged that the Serbs were to blame for

18     this incident, and that it was caused by fire from mortars, and that the

19     result was a large number of civilians who were either killed or wounded

20     by this mortar shell.

21        Q.   Did you find this information convincing at the time?

22        A.   I personally didn't.

23        Q.   Why?

24        A.   The newspapers wrote about how these people got wounded.  The

25     most wounded people suffered wounds in the lower extremities.  However,

Page 10117

 1     during disintegration, a mortar shell causes injuries in the upper part

 2     of the body because it explodes in the form of a fan, and that would

 3     effect only the people who were in close proximity to the place of

 4     impact.

 5        Q.   Can you please look down in this document where it says "units of

 6     the --"

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

 8             MR. SAXON:  I didn't object at the time, and I know that we've

 9     had a ruling from the Chamber that opinion evidence is permissible.  It

10     had to do with General -- Mr. Starcevic and his evidence, if you recall,

11     Your Honour.  That ruling said, if I'm recalling correctly, that as long

12     as its within the knowledge of the person who is testifying, and I'm just

13     raising this now because I haven't heard any foundation, for example,

14     that Mr. Simic is aware of how artillery works, how mortar shells work,

15     et cetera, et cetera.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that what Mr. Saxon is saying

17     now is something completely different.  With Mr. Starcovic you decided

18     that he is allowed to give his expert opinion on certain subjects.  I

19     asked Mr. Simic about his personal opinion that he had at the time based

20     on the information that he had irrespective his profession.  He did

21     provide some additional information based on his military experience, and

22     he explained what kind of injuries are caused by a mortar shell, and this

23     was the basis for his answer.  I think this is completely permissible.  I

24     just asked him about what he thought at the time about the information

25     that he had available.  I didn't seek his expert opinion.

Page 10118

 1             MR. SAXON:  Well, Your Honour, it's my understanding that the

 2     witness spent most of his career in planning.  He was a planner.  He

 3     worked in --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are learned colleague says it's his personal

 5     opinion he is seeking, not his professional opinion.

 6             MR. SAXON:  Then very well, Your Honour.  I'll leave it at that.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   General, can you please just comment this because we are going to

10     deal with this as a last subject.  The Croatian army is mentioned here in

11     the last paragraph, and, Your Honours, it is also the last paragraph in

12     the English.  What does this information pertain to, and why is it

13     important for an operations report?

14        A.   It says here that the third military district of the Croatian

15     army in Osjek despite the signed truth is in the process of intensive

16     preparations and provocations for an aggression against Baranja, Eastern

17     Slavonija and Western Srem, so it stems from that that an aggression

18     should be anticipated.

19        Q.   Why is this territory important for the security of the Federal

20     Republic of Yugoslavia?

21        A.   Geographically speaking, this area is immediately next to the

22     border with the FRY and any deterioration of the situation in the area

23     will inevitably threaten the security of the Federal Republic of

24     Yugoslavia.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have a number for this

Page 10119

 1     document.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

 3     an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00234.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at Defence

 7     Exhibit D164.  And this leads me to the last topic of my examination of

 8     General Simic.  You won't need this binder any longer, sir.

 9        Q.   While we were waiting for the document to be appear on the screen

10     tell me, have you heard of the 11th Corps of the Serbian army of Krajina,

11     and can you tell us how important it was in terms of the army of the

12     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and its border?

13        A.   It was important because in the zone of the 11th Corps, the land

14     border with the Republic of Croatia is situated, more specifically, in

15     the province of Vojvodina.  So this is the zone of the 11th Corps, and to

16     the east it borders with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   Did this corps have any territorial links with other parts of the

18     Republic of Serbian Krajina?

19        A.   The 11th Corps was in an exceptionally disadvantageous strategic

20     position in the entire Serbian Army of Krajina.

21        Q.   Just a second, General, I'm going to interrupt you.  Please,

22     General, don't mark anything by yourself.  I would just like to ask you

23     to circle the territory or the zone of responsibility of the 11th Corps,

24     but please wait.  Yes, you can do it now.  You have experience with this

25     gadget from the previous case, so please encircle the area of

Page 10120

 1     responsibility of the 11th Corps.

 2        A.   One can clearly see it on the map, but I am not very good with

 3     this implement.

 4        Q.   And on the right-hand side, can you please point the border of

 5     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or mark it.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Very well.  Please put number 1 next to it, or better still, 11,

 8     which signify the 11th Corps.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First, can we tender this document

11     into evidence before we lose the image, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

13     please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00235.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   One more question, General.  In terms of territory, is it a

17     mountainous area, and to what extent is the type of terrain important for

18     security?

19        A.   This is mainly a plain criss-crossed by roads that can easily be

20     used by armoured forces, and they can easily and quickly reach the border

21     of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Prosecution

23     document P1621 on our screens.

24        Q.   And I'll try to provide a copy for you, General.  That's

25     Prosecution document, and I would like to hear just a brief comment from

Page 10121

 1     you.  This is a document produced by the first administration of the

 2     General Staff of the Yugoslav Army dated the 11th of August, 1994, and it

 3     is addressed to the Main Staff of the RSK.  I think you will have to look

 4     at the screen after all.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is being advised that this

 7     document is marked for identification pending a review by the Defence.

 8     It is not yet admitted into evidence.  I am rather taken aback.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are now going to contribute, but I

10     have to admit, I did think that it was a Prosecution exhibit, but we are

11     now make a contribution will lead to admitting this document into

12     evidence.  We have a witness here who will probably confirm something

13     that is necessary in order to have the document explained.

14        Q.   Mr. Simic, tell me, this is a document of your administration.

15     It was signed by Mr. Kovacevic, the head of sector.  My question is:  Why

16     is it important or is it important for the security of Yugoslavia to have

17     bridges at Bezdan secured, and why are we addressing the Main Staff of

18     the Serb army of Krajina because of that?

19        A.   Through the intelligence administration information was received

20     that from the territory of Hungary incursions may be expected of sabotage

21     terrorist groups using the Danube river with the probable objective of

22     destroying the bridge at Bezdan and assassinations of certain persons in

23     the Novi Sad corps because in that area, or rather, these persons were in

24     that area.  It is very important for the bridges not to be destroyed

25     because if there were to be an aggression, there would be no land

Page 10122

 1     connection with the 11th Corps.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  DTG, that means sabotage terrorist group, right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence no longer

 5     objects to this document and agrees to having it admitted because it's a

 6     Prosecution exhibit.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  May the status of marked for

 8     identification be removed from the document, please.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to give the general

10     another set of documents now.  I'd like him to have them in front of him

11     so we can deal with them as quickly as possible.  For the most part these

12     are Prosecution exhibits, and I would like to hear his comments about

13     these documents.  May I please have on our screens document P2714.

14        Q.   General, the document before you is dated the 5th of May, 1995;

15     isn't that right?  It's an order issued by General Perisic.  It is the

16     first document.  Do you have the right order in your binder?

17        A.   P2175 is the first document I have.

18        Q.   Is that General Perisic's order dated the 5th of May?

19        A.   The documents are in the reverse order.

20        Q.   But you have found it?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  First, I'm going to ask you the following:  The 5th

23     of May, 1995.  Is the date this document bears.  Do you remember what

24     happened around that time, the beginning of May 1995, and if you can

25     remember, can you tell us why it is relevance for the safety and security

Page 10123

 1     of the FRY?

 2        A.   Relevant indeed.  The attack on Western Slavonija and the

 3     population being expelled from the area.

 4        Q.   In the second paragraph under number 2, it says:

 5             "Immediately send an expert report," -- or rather -- "immediately

 6     send POLO Battery 2 -- or 9p133 BRDM with men from the 12th MBRB to the

 7     area of the bridge near Bezdan ready for crossing of the Danube according

 8     to the special order."

 9             My question is the following:  When we spoke of the duties of the

10     Chief of General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia the other day, when you

11     explained to us that the Chief of General Staff does not have a command

12     function in terms of the use of units, can you give us your comment in

13     respect of this order?  Is this order within the scope of his authority

14     in terms of what you discussed the other day?

15        A.   Yes, fully.

16        Q.   Who can issue an order?  Here it says on a special order --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

18             MR. SAXON:  Very sorry to interrupt.  It's just that what is

19     coming across in the transcript does not appear to be reflected in the

20     document itself, and that's what is causing the confusion.  If I could

21     have a moment, please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, it's not supposed to be 2175, it's

23     supposed to be 2174.  I'm sorry for reading your lips.

24             MR. SAXON:  That's what we've been looking at, Your Honour, and

25     we are not finding what is reflected in the transcript in the document,

Page 10124

 1     and that's what is causing our confusion.  Page 40, starting at line 18,

 2     something about a POLO battery, if you see it, we don't see that.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you look at paragraph 2, command of the 1st

 4     Army, can you see that heading?

 5             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go to the next paragraph, I think that POLO must

 7     have been a misinterpretation, Immediately sent -- POLO armoured

 8     personnel carrier, battery 9p133.

 9             MR. SAXON:  We've found it.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Who can issue an order for a transfer to --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought the witness answered that question.  He

14     said it was perfectly within General Perisic's power to issue this order.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot hear Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 41, 77 --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, look at page 41, line 3:

19             "Is this order within the scope of his authority in terms of what

20     you discussed the other day?"  "Yes, fully."

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but that has to do with the

22     order.  But this is another question.  This is my next question.  It has

23     to do with the transfer.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My apologies.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10125

 1        Q.   So, is this order in accordance with the powers for the unit to

 2     act?  Is it from that point of view in accordance with the powers of the

 3     Chief of General Staff for the units to prepare to be used?

 4        A.   It is fully in keeping with his powers, fully.  He uses the units

 5     all the way up until the moment when the units are to be used, and the

 6     actual use is approved by the supreme commander.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Could we have the next document now,

 8     please.  This is P21755.  This is also a document of the Chief of General

 9     Staff dated the 13th of May, 1995 sent to the commander --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I didn't think we have that many

11     exhibits already, P21755.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 2755.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That document I'm told is under seal.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we then please move into

16     private session.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

18 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   We are going to wait for the document to appear on our screens.

23     Do you have the document in front of you, General?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   The document is self-explanatory, but I would like us to look at

Page 10126

 1     paragraph 3 where it says:

 2             "The engaged forces of the corps of special units and the

 3     subordinated units should be deployed on the request of the commander of

 4     the 11th Corps and with my approval."

 5             General Perisic, the Chief of General Staff, can he issue an

 6     order on the use of these units on his own, or does he need someone

 7     else's order and if so, whose?

 8        A.   He cannot.  He needs a decision by the supreme commander, and

 9     that is why he has this proviso on my special order.

10        Q.   It says approval here.
















Page 10130

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   We will see the document in a minute on our screens, Mr. Simic.

10     Can you tell us what this is and why this order was issued and signed by

11     General Perisic?

12        A.   Mr. Lukic, you've told the Honourable Chamber the number in

13     English, and I can't really follow you.

14        Q.   I apologise, that's P2761, a document from the first

15     administration dated the 21st of June, 1995.

16        A.   Yes, I can see it now.

17        Q.   Could you please just tell us briefly, this was produced by your

18     administration.  It was signed by the Chief of the General Staff.  Tell

19     us, please, why was your administration involved in the drafting of this

20     document, and what is the function of this order?

21        A.   As I said earlier, the first administration was responsible for

22     the security of the Yugoslav Army.  And as such, it proposed this and the

23     Chief of the General Staff accepted it.  The proposal was since there was

24     no mobilisation, that then we should establish combat groups from parts

25     of trained units and forces and deploy them in certain areas close to the

Page 10131

 1     border.

 2        Q.   What borders is this in view of the localities mentioned here,

 3     Rudo Priboj?

 4        A.   This is the border with Republika Srpska along the valley, the

 5     Dina Valley.

 6        Q.   Why was it important to establish this combat groups, and tell

 7     me, please, just in general terms for the Trial Chamber, how -- what was

 8     the manpower of these combat groups based on the information that we see

 9     before us?  So what was -- what were the manpower levels of those units?

10        A.   Combat groups are established on an ad hoc basis as needed, and

11     as a general rule, there is no rule as to their manpower levels.

12     Depending on the needs, they could be a strengthened infantry company or

13     a strengthened artillery -- or tank company, so it could be from 150 to

14     200 men and the equipment that those units have at their disposal.

15        Q.   In paragraph 3 it says that these groups that are being

16     established are to be deployed in this sector pursuant to an approval

17     from the Chief of the General Staff.  Is this in keeping with the

18     authority of the Chief of the General Staff and what his authority was in

19     terms of use of units?

20        A.   Mr. Lukic, yes, but I would like to correct something you said.

21     Not by permission or by approval of, but by order of the Chief of the

22     General Staff.

23        Q.   Here we see the use of this unit that had only to do with

24     preparations and their deployment along the border, and not their use in

25     combat?

Page 10132

 1        A.   I perfectly understand what you are saying, and that's what I'm

 2     saying, the preparation of units for their use --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters request that the witness

 4     repeat his answer.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters request that you repeat your

 6     answer, Mr. Simic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is within the competence of

 8     the chief of the General Staff.  He can take steps and measures in order

 9     to prevent any surprises as he assesses as to where they might occur, and

10     the document for the use of units in combat has to be issued by the

11     supreme commander.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The last document that I would like

13     to have the witness see is a 65 ter document, 01059, a Defence document.

14     Could we just move briefly to private session for the purposes of this

15     document.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10133











11 Pages 10133-10136 redacted. Private session.















Page 10137

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Court Officer.  There are

14     the papers.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Are these copies for me to keep, or

16     should I be looking through them?

17             MR. SAXON:  These are copies for the witness to use.  We were not

18     able to prepare by the start of today binders for the Defence.  We have

19     sent a list to the Defence of the materials that we will probably be

20     using on cross-examination.

21             If I can just explain to the Chamber why there are three binders.

22     One binder contains Prosecution exhibits.  Another binder contains

23     exhibits that have not been admitted but are on the Prosecution 65 ter

24     list.  And then there is a binder that contains some new material which

25     we will explain to the Chamber when we get to it.

Page 10138

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, Your Honour, if I might, with regard

 2     to any evidence that could be categorised as fresh evidence under

 3     pre-existing case law and jurisprudence at the Tribunal, if we could be

 4     notified well in advance so that any kind of arguments with regard to the

 5     admission of fresh evidence is something that can be handled prior to any

 6     questions being asked of the witness.  In the absence of knowing

 7     specifically what documents there are, I'm sure Mr. Saxon is well aware

 8     of the litigation that is going on with regard to the use of fresh

 9     evidence in examination by the Prosecution.

10             MR. SAXON:  Perhaps at the next break, Your Honour, I can explain

11     to the Defence what the new or fresh evidence that is included in our

12     material is.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  During the break?

14             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard to that particular issue, that may

16     require legal argument because there are certain very definite standards

17     that exist with regard to the Prosecution's use of fresh evidence in

18     their cross-examination.  But until we see what they are suggesting, we

19     are not in a position to respond.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you wait for the break and maybe we might be

21     able to respond after the break once you first talked to the Prosecution?

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe so.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

24             Are you happy with the binders, Mr. Lukic?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In as much as I'm able to peruse it

Page 10139

 1     quickly, I can agree for them to be given to the witness.

 2             MR. SAXON:  Perhaps in order to make a little bit more room for

 3     the witness and the binders, I think there's a binder of what were

 4     Defence exhibits on the ELMO.  Perhaps if that could be given back to the

 5     Defence.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you give this one, Mr. Usher.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon:

 8        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Simic.

 9        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor.

10        Q.   Preliminarily I'd like to take you back, please, to your

11     testimony on Tuesday and the discussion that you had with Mr. Lukic on

12     the powers of the Chief of the General Staff to engage units of the Army

13     of Yugoslavia in combat, in war.  And on Tuesday, and this was at pages

14     9926 through 9928 of the transcript, you describe the rights and powers

15     of the Chief of the General Staff to engage units of the Army of

16     Yugoslavia in the use of force.  And you explained at page 9927, lines 3

17     to 6, and at page 9932 that when it comes to the use of force, the Chief

18     of the General Staff does not have the right to engage army units for

19     that purpose because it is within the exclusive purview of the supreme

20     commander.  And as well on page 9926, you explained that the Chief of the

21     General Staff can only engage VJ units in the use of force with the prior

22     decision of the supreme commander.  That is the president.  Do you recall

23     that testimony?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   My question is, if at some time while he was Chief of the General

Page 10140

 1     Staff, General Perisic had engaged units of the VJ in combat without a

 2     prior decision or order of the supreme commander, General Perisic would

 3     have been operating outside of the law of the Federal Republic of

 4     Yugoslavia; isn't that right?

 5        A.   He would always step his authorities granted to him under the

 6     law.

 7        Q.   Then the answer to my question would be a yes; is that right,

 8     sir?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   On Tuesday, this is at page 9936, lines 15 to 20 of the

11     transcript, you were discussing what became Exhibit D199 with the

12     witness.  I'm wondering if we can see that on the screen, please, and if

13     perhaps -- excuse me.  So there is a binder in front of you that says

14     "admitted exhibits".  Perhaps the usher can help you find that.  It says

15     "D and P Exhibits" on the label.  And if you could turn to the tab that

16     says D199.

17             And could we please go to the next page, please.  We need to see

18     Article 5 on the screen.

19        Q.   Mr. Simic, are you able to find Article 5 where it says:

20             "Command in terms of this order represents the function of

21     integrated control of subordinated commands, units, and institutions."

22             Have you found that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you explained on Tuesday that this means that the Chief of

25     the General Staff can command his subordinate, give them duties and

Page 10141

 1     tasks, request reports on information about the carrying out of duties

 2     assigned to them.  And the question I wanted to ask you was whether -- if

 3     Momcilo Perisic as the Chief of the General Staff wanted to order someone

 4     to give him a report, he could only issue such an order to one of his

 5     subordinates; is that a fair statement?

 6        A.   In item five of "General Provisions" it stipulates that command

 7     function is part of the General Staff.

 8        Q.   I understand that, Mr. Simic.  I'm moving beyond Article 5 now,

 9     I'm following up on the comment that you gave to Mr. Lukic when he was

10     discussing Article 5 with you.  And I want to know whether if General

11     Perisic wants to order someone to give him a report, if he is the Chief

12     of the General Staff, he could only issue such an order to his

13     subordinates; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I see the time.  Perhaps this would be a

17     good time to take the second break, and I'll discuss a few things with my

18     colleagues as well.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I do think it is a good time indeed.  We'll take a

20     break and come back at quarter to 6.00.  Court adjourned.

21                           --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.  Have you been able to resolve

24     your differences with your colleagues?

25             MR. SAXON:  I would say we've been able to discuss our

Page 10142

 1     differences, and we will ventilate them perhaps further at the

 2     appropriate time with the Trial Chamber.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 4             MR. SAXON:

 5        Q.   Mr. Simic, we were looking at what is now Exhibit D199, and I'm

 6     wondering if we could turn to section 13, and that's on page 7 of the

 7     English version and page 5 of the B/C/S version.  Page 5, Mr. Simic,

 8     about five lines from the bottom.

 9             MR. SAXON:  I'm wondering if we could increase the size of the

10     English a bit.  Thank you.

11        Q.   Mr. Simic, you'll see that section 13 there is a provision that

12     says, in terms of the functions of the office of the chief of the General

13     Staff in terms of commanding, it says that it:

14             "Prepares orders for business trips abroad for professional

15     officers, non-commissioned officers, and civilian persons, and sends them

16     for signing to the Federal Ministry of Defence."  Do you see that?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   It is about five provisions up from the bottom of what I believe

19     is page 5.

20        A.   I can see page 5, last paragraph is illegible in this copy.  It

21     begins with "commands directly subordinate units and institutions --

22        Q.   Mr. Simic, about of halfway between the word "commanding" and the

23     bottom of the page, there's a provision that says:  "Prepares orders for

24     business trips abroad..." Do you see that provision?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Simic, if you look at that heading that you

Page 10143

 1     were read, commanding, there are bullet points down there, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,

 2     number 6, the 6th bullet point, can you read that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             MR. SAXON:

 5        Q.   Do you see that it says:  "Prepares orders for business trips?"

 6        A.   I'm really sorry for taking so much time, but I'm looking at the

 7     wrong page.  This is on page 6, actually.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, it's on page 6, Mr. Simic, we are very sorry.

 9             MR. SAXON:

10        Q.   I apologise.  Do you see that provision on page 6?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I'd like to explore this with you for a moment, please.  These

13     orders for business trips abroad.  For example, for a business trip

14     abroad for the Chief of the General Staff, who prepares these orders?

15        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, you are quoting an order which is within the

16     purview of the office of the Chief of General Staff that provides

17     services for the Chief of General Staff.

18        Q.   So your answer is, if I understand you, officers who work in the

19     office will be preparing these orders for business trips; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And what do the preparations entail?  What would be contained

22     within such an order?

23        A.   I cannot give you a full answer to that.  What would this order

24     would contain because this is beyond my scope of responsibilities.  The

25     Chief of General Staff in addition to his office had an administration

Page 10144

 1     for liaison with international organisations, and then probably these two

 2     bodies co-ordinated these kind of activities.  I, myself, never wrote

 3     such an order.

 4        Q.   All right.  Do you know if -- do you know where records of such

 5     orders might be kept?

 6        A.   According to the rule governing official correspondence and

 7     depending on the relevance of the document, a period for its safekeeping

 8     is determined.  Specifically when it comes to this kind of order, I

 9     cannot give you this period of time.  All documents are kept in the

10     archives.

11        Q.   Very well.  One more question on this topic.  In 1993, 1994,

12     1995, if General Perisic had left the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

13     made a business trip to one of the former republics over to another

14     country, would there be security travelling with him?

15        A.   Depending on the destination and the task.  Again, I cannot give

16     you any more details about this because, as I said, this is beyond the

17     scope of my responsibilities.

18        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

19             MR. SAXON:  We can remove this document from the screen.  And can

20     we please see what is now Exhibit D202.

21        Q.   And in that binder that you've got in front of you, Mr. Simic,

22     you should see at -- one of those red tabs should say D202 on it.

23             MR. SAXON:  And in e-court --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             MR. SAXON:  Scroll down, please, in the B/C/S, and if we can

Page 10145

 1     enlarge the English just a little bit.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Simic, this is one of the documents that Mr. Lukic discussed

 3     with you on Tuesday, and at page 9970, starting at line 19 through page

 4     9971 to line 8, you explain that with the exception of item 22 on this

 5     list --

 6             MR. SAXON:  And can we please turn the page in both versions so

 7     we can see item 22.  I think we are going the wrong way in B/C/S.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Stay on the first page in the B/C/S.  Thank you.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

10        Q.   You said that with the exception of -- with the exception of item

11     22 on the list, which is the Federal Ministry of Defence, you said that

12     this document was, and I'm quoting you:

13             "Distributed to all organisational units of the VJ General Staff

14     and those immediately subordinated to the chain of command directly

15     subordinated to the Chief of the General Staff, that is."

16             Do you recall that testimony?

17        A.   Yes, but I added the Ministry of Defence under 22 because you can

18     see the whole list of the recipients.

19        Q.   That's right.  Can you please take a look at item 21 on the

20     distribution list.  It has the letters KSJ.  Can you tell us what those

21     letters stand for in the Army of Yugoslavia, what they stood for?

22        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, this stands for the Special Unit Corps.

23        Q.   And, Mr. Simic, can you recall, for example, in 1993 and 1994

24     what were the names of the units of the brigades that made up the Special

25     Unit Corps?  Was one of them the 72nd Brigade?

Page 10146

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Can you recall the names of the other units in the Special Unit

 3     Corps?

 4        A.   There should have been the guard's brigade, the 72nd Special

 5     Brigade, and the paratrooper Brigade.

 6        Q.   And the Special Unit Corps were also directly subordinated to the

 7     chief of the General Staff; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And when Momcilo Perisic became the Chief of the General Staff in

10     August 1993, were the Special Unit Corps at that time, were they also

11     directly subordinated to him; if you recall?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. SAXON:  Can we please take a look at what is now Exhibit

14     D195.

15        Q.   And hopefully you've got a red tab there, Mr. Simic, that says

16     D195.

17        A.   It's hard for me to find my way.  I have to be quite honest about

18     that, Mr. Prosecutor.  The markings are difficult.

19        Q.   I'm very grateful for your patience.  Maybe the usher can assist

20     you?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While the usher is assisting him, Mr. Saxon, I saw

22     them trying to enlarge these charts here to the best of their ability

23     with the two-page division, and I still don't see -- but I can't see what

24     is in there.

25             MR. SAXON:  Well, the question that I'm going to ask may not

Page 10147

 1     require necessarily great visual acuity at this time, but I'll let you be

 2     the Judge of that.

 3        Q.   Mr. Simic, we don't see the Special Unit Corps anywhere in this

 4     organogram.  It's from June 1993.  Why is that; if you know?

 5        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, you cannot see the Special Unit Corps because it

 6     is not an organisational unit of the General Staff, rather, it is at a

 7     lower level in the first chain of command at army rank.

 8        Q.   I see.  So in other words, the special corps units were directly

 9     subordinate to the Chief of the General Staff, but not an organisation

10     unit of the Chief of the General Staff; is that a fair statement?

11        A.   General Staff is a staff and it has a structure of its own.  At a

12     lower level, there are commands of the armies, of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Army,

13     the command of the RV and the PVO, the navy command, the command of the

14     Special Unit Corps.

15        Q.   Very well.

16        A.   That is why, that is why the organogram cannot represent that as

17     well.  Perhaps if a line were drawn and then you would show the first

18     chain of subordination.

19        Q.   Thank you very much, that explains it.

20             MR. SAXON:  We can remove D195 now, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Simic, I would like you to turn your mind now back to the

22     Drina plan, which you discussed at length with my colleague yesterday.

23     And I have some questions that I'd like to ask you about that.  And you

24     explained yesterday that what we know as the Drina plan was actually a

25     piece of strategic camouflage, it was produced in order to deceive the

Page 10148

 1     enemy.  Do you recall your testimony?

 2        A.   Absolutely.

 3        Q.   You mentioned yesterday that in addition to the members of the VJ

 4     General Staff taking part in the preparation of the Drina plan, General

 5     Novakovic from the SVK Main Staff participated, as well as General

 6     Milanovic from the VRS Main Staff.  My question for you is this:  If the

 7     Drina plan had actually been an authentic genuine plan, what would Ratko

 8     Mladic, General Milovanovic, and others from the Army of the Republika

 9     Srpska have done to elaborate its own plans so that the Army of Republika

10     Srpska could implement the Drina plan?

11             Let's forget for a moment, to use your term, that this was a

12     strategic deception or camouflage.  If this was a general plan, what

13     would the Main Staff of the VRS have done?

14        A.   Had this been a complete plan of use and had extracts been

15     provided to the Main Staffs, they would have to elaborate plans for their

16     own units including a more detailed operationalisation in terms of

17     carrying out the said tasks.

18        Q.   And when you say the Main Staffs, so -- would have had to

19     elaborate plans for their own units, so does that mean, for example,

20     plans at the corps level?

21        A.   I have to give a bit of a broader explanation.  If he received an

22     extract from the directive that we saw that was signed by the president

23     of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, then they, as the Main Staff, they

24     had to elaborate their own complex plan like this.  And then from that

25     plan, they should have provided extracts for the respective corps where

Page 10149

 1     the tasks of specific corps would be spelled out in even greater detail.

 2     The corps should issue orders to their brigade command and then it is set

 3     exactly who does what where and with who in the field.  That is the

 4     methodology that is customary in the elaboration of such plans.

 5        Q.   So I imagine during this lengthy and complex process, orders are

 6     issued by superiors to their subordinates to produce plans, right?

 7        A.   I did not understand the question fully.

 8        Q.   Well, you'd expect to see during this process, for example, an

 9     order from a corps commander to his staff saying produce a particular

10     plan for a particular part of the Drina plan?

11        A.   Corps commanders elaborate orders for their command.  An order is

12     a lower level of ordering when compared to a directive.  The directive

13     was elaborated by you see who and they issue orders.

14        Q.   And you would expect, for example, you would expect those orders

15     to be signed, you would expect them to be sealed, right?

16        A.   Document is considered to be valid if it is logged, signed, and

17     verified by the authorised commander.

18        Q.   All right.  And again during this process, you would also expect

19     to see plans being sent up, for example, to a corps commander for the

20     corps commander's approval, wouldn't you?

21        A.   Could we please clarify one matter.  A directive for the use of

22     armed forces that is being elaborated before combat activities has to

23     contain all its integral parts.  During the combat activities themselves,

24     orders elaborate what had been planned in the directive.

25        Q.   And the different component parts of the plan need to be

Page 10150

 1     approved, for example, if it's at a corps level by the corps commander;

 2     is that right?

 3        A.   A corps commander issued an order to his subordinates.  Before

 4     his subordinates make a decision on the implementation of that, the corps

 5     commander should be informed of the decision.  The decision is the fourth

 6     item in the order, and I para-phrase this, it says:

 7             "I have hereby decided to use the main forces along such and such

 8     an axis, main axis, auxiliary axis, et cetera."

 9             And then the corps commander approves or supplements or amends

10     that or simply gives his approval.  That is considered to be the process

11     involved.

12        Q.   Very well.

13        A.   Thank you.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. SAXON:  At this time we have another binder that I'd like to

16     give to General Simic.  Perhaps for now those three binders can be

17     cleared away from his desk because he won't be looking at them for

18     awhile.  I've already shown this particular binder, the next binder, to

19     Mr. Lukic.  He doesn't have a problem with it.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You confirm, Mr. Lukic?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that I have had a look at

22     these documents.  I saw them during the break.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             MR. SAXON:  Perhaps if we could pull up on the screen what is

25     P1555.

Page 10151

 1        Q.   If you open that binder, Mr. Simic, and just turn to tab 1.  What

 2     you should see in front of you is a document entitled "Extract From the

 3     Directive For the Use of the Republika Srpska Army."  Do you see that?

 4     Just the very first page, if we can look at the first page for now.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And I think you'll also notice, if you can follow me, Mr. Simic,

 7     up at the top of that page, just the first page for now, it says at the

 8     top "National Defence State Secret R Drina.  Copy Number 1."  Then below

 9     we see "December 1993".  Are you following me?

10        A.   December 1993.

11        Q.   Right.  Okay.  And I'd now like to direct your attention, please,

12     to the very last page.  And you see on the very last page we see the

13     signature of General Ratko Mladic and the seal of the VRS Main Staff?

14        A.   Yes, I've found it.

15        Q.   And up above the signature it says:  "Date when directive comes

16     into effect" and then it says:  "The directive shall come into effect on

17     28 December 1993."

18             So this would indicate actually that an extract from the Drina

19     plan was actually sent to the Army of Republika Srpska, doesn't it?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Can you explain why you say no?

22        A.   I can.  This is an extract.  The commander of the Main Staff sent

23     it to his subordinate units and that extract is from the Federal -- or

24     rather, had it been from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia then it would

25     have been registered with a stamp and seal of the Federal Republic of

Page 10152

 1     Yugoslavia.  That's why I'm saying, that's not an extract from that

 2     directive that we had discussed.

 3        Q.   Point taken, thank you for clarifying that.  But what this does

 4     show is that at some point in time, obviously, General Mladic became

 5     aware of the Drina plan, right?

 6        A.   I never denied that, because his Chief of Staff along with a

 7     group of officers was present during the elaboration of that plan at the

 8     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, and that is how he received

 9     information from his Chief of Staff, Manojlo Milovanovic.

10        Q.   Very well.

11             MR. SAXON:  If we could remove that document from the screen.

12        Q.   And if you turn to tab -- to the next tab, Mr. Simic, we'll be

13     looking at what is P2158.  I just want to focus on the first page,

14     please.

15        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, are you referring to the same binder?

16        Q.   Yes, I am.  Just the very next tab.  And if you look at the

17     document there, you'll see in the upper right-hand it says:  "People's

18     defence state secret 'Drina'.  Attachment number 13, copy number 2."  Do

19     you see that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And then we see the title of the document "Logistical Support,

22     Attachment to the Republika Srpska Army Main Staff Directive."  And if

23     you look at every page in the original, Mr. Simic, you'll see that every

24     page is stamped with the seal of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika

25     Srpska; is that right?

Page 10153

 1        A.   That's right.

 2        Q.   So this would have been an attachment, and I'm very sorry, if you

 3     go to the last page, you'll also see that it's signed by commander

 4     General Ratko Mladic with the seal there.  So just so that I understand

 5     it, this would have been an attachment to the directive for the Drina

 6     plan produced by the VRS Main Staff; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Very well.

 9        A.   However, if you allow me, Mr. Prosecutor, the methodology of

10     verifying documents says that he is supposed to sign the directive.

11     These are attachments.  Attachments are signed by his assistant

12     commanders.  In this specific case, this is an attachment for logistical

13     support, and it was supposed to be signed by his assistant commander for

14     logistics.

15        Q.   Very well, thank you for that.  If you turn to the next tab,

16     General.

17             MR. SAXON:  And if we could see what is Exhibit P1554 on the

18     ELMO.

19        Q.   And actually, you'll see this document is entitled --

20             MR. SAXON:  Perhaps if we could zoom in on the English, please,

21     because otherwise our judges will be handicapped.  Perhaps a bit more so

22     they can read the title.  Thank you.

23        Q.   So we see this is a plan of logistics support for operational

24     formations and units of the Army of Republika Srpska.  We see in the

25     upper left-hand corner, and maybe we could zoom -- thank you.  That it's

Page 10154

 1     been approved by the commander Ratko Mladic.  And on the right side it

 2     says:  "National defence state secret Drina."  And if you direct your

 3     attention, Mr. Simic, to the bottom right-hand corner of the first page,

 4     you'll see that it was signed just like, I believe you referred to a

 5     moment ago, by General Mladic's assistant, his assistant commander for

 6     logistics base, General Major Djordje Lukic.  I'm sorry, I've just been

 7     informed that the name should be Djukic, not Lukic.  Are you able to see

 8     that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So this particular plan would have been produced by General

11     Djordje Djukic and then approved by his commander Ratko Mladic; is that

12     right?  That's how it works?

13        A.   That's right.  However, this document is an integral part of the

14     previous logistics support.  This is its operationalisation in greater

15     detail, and it didn't have to be approved to that extent.  Ratko Mladic

16     was supposed to approve that logistics support, and Djukic was supposed

17     to sign this.

18        Q.   Could you turn -- thank you for that.  Could you turn, let's see,

19     in your version it would be -- on the first page, it's a bit difficult to

20     read because we see columns running vertically and columns running

21     horizontally, at least in the Serbo-Croat version, but about a quarter of

22     the way down the page in your version, Mr. Simic, we see a reference to

23     "TRZM Kragujevac."  And I'm sorry for my mispronunciation.  Are you able

24     to see that?  It's actually in a column that's running vertically, so

25     it's a bit awkward to read.  First it says TRZ Hadzici, RZ Kosmos?

Page 10155

 1        A.   [B/C/S spoken] that is what the abbreviation says.  It is

 2     technical and overall institution.

 3        Q.   Is that an institution that is part -- at least at that time was

 4     part of the Army of Yugoslavia?

 5        A.   Which one do you mean, sorry?

 6        Q.   TRZM Kragujevac.

 7        A.   No, no.  It was in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia within the

 8     authority of the Ministry of Defence.

 9        Q.   Very well.  And if you could go down a little bit further in

10     those vertical rows, a few lines further down, and again I apologise

11     sincerely for my poor pronunciation, but there's a line that begins with

12     the number 14 and in the middle of that line we see the number 608.  You

13     see that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you explain what that number 608 is referring to?

16        A.   608 logistics base of the Army of Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   Very well.  If we can turn away from this document now, and,

18     Mr. Simic, if you could turn the page, go to the next tab, which should

19     be number 4.

20             MR. SAXON:  And if we can see, please, what is P1557.

21        Q.   You will see, Mr. Simic, this says:  "National defence state

22     secret - R Drina copy number 1.  Communications order number 1."  And

23     then the first section there refers to communication centres.  Can you

24     tell us the purpose of this document?  Just briefly, a summary.

25        A.   The purpose of this document is in its title.  It's an order

Page 10156

 1     relating to communications.

 2        Q.   And if you turn to the last page.  Excuse me, I'm sorry,

 3     Mr. Simic.  In your version it's the penultimate page where you'll see

 4     the signature of General Manojlo Milovanovic and the stamp of the VRS

 5     Main Staff, and it's also signed by chief of communications Colonel

 6     Prole.  Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And why is such an order important for a directive like the Drina

 9     plan?

10        A.   It is extremely important because it governs the command post,

11     the location of communication centres at these command posts, how

12     communications are maintained, and other things of that nature.

13        Q.   So this would actually be a pretty sensitive document if the

14     information is correct; is that right?

15        A.   All the attachments that go with the directive have the same

16     level of secrecy.  Therefore, in each one of them, the relevance of the

17     document is determined because by that, it operationalisation what is

18     given in the directive in its textual part.  Let me be even clearer, and

19     attachment to the directive cannot be at a lower level of secrecy than

20     the very source or the original document.

21        Q.   Thank you.  If you could turn to the next tab, please, tab 5.

22             MR. SAXON:  And if we could see the document that is P1558,

23     please.

24        Q.   You'll see, Mr. Simic, this document is entitled "Chart of the

25     Republika Srpska Army's Daily Analogue Radio Relay Communications."  Are

Page 10157

 1     you with me?

 2        A.   I can see this chart in English.

 3        Q.   You don't have a copy in your language?

 4        A.   No, but there's no problem.

 5        Q.   Well, I can give you a copy.

 6        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I said it's no problem because what was written

 7     in the previous document is now graphically presented here, the

 8     communications order.  That's why I said it's no problem if it is in

 9     English only.

10        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.  In the upper right-hand corner we see

11     it says:  "National defence state secret Drina, supplement number 2, copy

12     number 1."  And in the middle of the page, there is a stamp, which has

13     been translated as general stamp [sic] of the army, and if you could

14     focus your attention right now, Mr. Simic, on the far right-hand side of

15     this chart, up towards the right-hand top corner, we see a circle and the

16     word "Belgrade," do you see that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And what this appears to show, appears to show the analogue radio

19     links between Belgrade, and we see the word "Avala."  What does Avala

20     mean?

21        A.   Avala is a mountain to the south of Belgrade.

22        Q.   Very well.

23        A.   And on this mountain, the communication equipment was located, or

24     more precisely, the repeaters.

25        Q.   Very well.  And if you direct your eyes down the page from Avala,

Page 10158

 1     further down we see the word, I don't know how it to pronounce this, I'll

 2     give it a try, "Cigota."  What was Cigota?

 3        A.   It is on the mount Zlatibor.  It is close to the border with

 4     Republika Srpska.  It's a high hill or a high ground, I don't know how to

 5     call it.

 6        Q.   It's close to the border, but it's within Serbia; is that right?

 7        A.   Absolutely.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And then we see the connections go towards the centre of

 9     the page.  In the centre of the page we see a circle next to the word

10     "Pale," and above that we see "Sarajevo-Romanija Corps."  Would these be

11     the locations of radio relay repeaters in the area of the Army of

12     Republika Srpska?

13        A.   I'm sorry, Mr. Prosecutor, I can't find my bearings.  Can you

14     please repeat your last question.

15        Q.   Sure.  Maybe if this will help you, if you look at the stamp in

16     the middle of the page, and if you look, say, to around 4.00 or 5.00 down

17     from that stamp, first you see "Sarajevo-Romanija Corps" and then you see

18     the word "Pale."  You see that?

19        A.   Yes, yes, now I see it.

20        Q.   And then moving up towards the right at about 2.00, we see the

21     Main Staff of the Republika Srpska Army at Han Pijsak, are you with me?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So these would have been analogue relay stations controlled by

24     the Army of the Republika Srpska?  I'm sorry, I've asked you this

25     question already.  I don't need to repeat it.  If you move -- if you look

Page 10159

 1     at the stamp in the middle of the page, and you move up about 10.00 we

 2     see relays in the town of Banja Luka.  And above that there's a relay on,

 3     we see the word "Kosara."  Is that Kosara mountain?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And then from Banja Luka, if you look down to around 7.00 to the

 6     left we see a reference to the Serbian army of the Republic of Serbian

 7     Krajina, next to a triangle with the word "Knin."  You see that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So this attachment to the Drina plan, the -- it -- this

10     demonstrates the analogue radio connections between the Army of

11     Yugoslavia, the Army of Republika Srpska, as well as the Serbian Army of

12     Krajina.  Is that a fair statement?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. SAXON:  I'm grateful to Mr. Harmon.  There appears to be

15     either I misspoke or there's an error in the transcript at page 74, line

16     24.  That should say General Staff of the army.  Not general stamp of the

17     army.  If that could be corrected, please.

18        Q.   Mr. Simic, could you turn to the next tab, please.  It should

19     be --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I'm a little slow.  You said page 74.

21             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Line?

23             MR. SAXON:  Line 24.  I should have said General Staff of the

24     army, not general stamp of the army.  That's what the English translation

25     said.

Page 10160

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. SAXON:

 3        Q.   General Simic, if you could turn to what is tab 6 in your binder.

 4             MR. SAXON:  And if we could see P1559 on the screen.

 5        Q.   General, you'll see this document is entitled "Intelligence Plan

 6     for Execution of Defensive and Offensive VRS operations."  On the

 7     right-hand side at the top it says:  "National defence state secret

 8     Drina.  Enclosure number 5, copy number 2."

 9        A.   Yes, I can see it.

10        Q.   On the upper left-hand side we see -- we see that it says "I

11     approve."  And then it says:  "Main Staff of the Army of Republika

12     Srpska."  Signed and stamped by General Ratko Mladic.  So this is an

13     example of the kind of plan that Ratko Mladic would have to approve as

14     part of the Drina plan for the Army of Republika Srpska, isn't it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   If you could turn to the next tab, tab 7.

17             MR. SAXON:  And if we could see Exhibit P1560 in e-court, please.

18        Q.   General, you'll see that this document is entitled "Plan of Moral

19     and Psychological Activities and Information Work of the Army of

20     Republika Srpska."  And on the upper right it says:  "National defence

21     state secret - R, Drina, attachment number 11, copy number 2."  And in

22     the upper left-hand side, we see it's been approved by the commander

23     Ratko Mladic.  We see the stamp there, the Main Staff, and if you could

24     go to, let me see, in your version it would be the third page, you'll see

25     that there's a stamp that's pretty much illegible and a signature.  Have

Page 10161

 1     you been following me?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   However, if you go to the very last page in your version, which

 4     is page 7.

 5             MR. SAXON:  The last page in the English version, please.

 6        Q.   What we see at the very end of this plan is that it's signed by

 7     Major-General Milan Gvero, who at that time was the assistant commander

 8     for moral guidance and religious and legal affairs.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In which army?

10             MR. SAXON:  Well, this is a document from the VRS, Your Honour.

11     That's the best I can -- I can ask the witness.

12        Q.   If you can tell us in late 1993, if you know, early 1994, where

13     Milan Gvero was serving, do you know?

14        A.   Well, in the Army of Republika Srpska, and it's all written here.

15     And this previous signature that you say is illegible, it's also Milan

16     Gvero's signature.

17        Q.   I see.  Thank you for that.  If you could turn back to page 1 of

18     the document, General Simic, please.

19             MR. SAXON:  If you go back to page 1 in the English.

20        Q.   And if you could focus on the paragraph that is entitled

21     "Objectives."  The paragraph after the word "objectives" begins with

22     "first".

23        A.   I can see it.

24        Q.   And about halfway down that paragraph we see "... and our firm

25     determination to take all available measures to prevent other peoples

Page 10162

 1     from creating and rounding up their states at the expense of

 2     traditionally Serbian territories and the Serbian population, and instead

 3     continue to create conditions for the liberation and unification of all

 4     Serbian territories in one state."  Do you see that?  Do you see that

 5     language?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. SAXON:  If we could leave this language -- this document for

 8     a moment and go to what is P215.  And if Mr. Usher could assist General

 9     Simic to find the tab in the P and D binder that says P215, please.  I've

10     just been told that document might be there -- excuse me, might not be

11     there.  Let's see if we can do this using the screen.

12             If we can go, please, to page 7 in both languages.  And to assist

13     General Simic, yes, could we blow up what is there.

14        Q.   And are you able to see, General, there's large title Called "Use

15     of Armed Forces."  Are you able to see that at the top?

16        A.   Yes, I can.

17        Q.   And below that we see the phrase "general objectives" and

18     followed by two paragraphs.  And the second paragraph says the following,

19     in part:

20             "Defend the territorial integrity of the Serbian states west of

21     the Drina and Danube rivers and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

22     protect Serbian people from genocide, liberate parts of Serbian

23     territories with Serbian majorities," and then it says "create conditions

24     for the establishment of a single state of the Serbian people ..."

25             Were you able to follow with me?

Page 10163

 1        A.   Yes, fully.

 2        Q.   So we see there similar language about the creation of a single

 3     Serbian state that we saw a moment ago in the plan -- from the Drina plan

 4     from the Army of Republika Srpska.  Would you agree with me on that?

 5        A.   If I were able to read where it's written.  I cannot follow you,

 6     I'm sorry, Mr. Prosecutor.  We are going backwards and forwards, it's

 7     difficult for me to follow.  I would really like it to do so.  I read it

 8     and that's what it says.

 9        Q.   There's no need to apologise, it's my fault because I should have

10     brought a hard copy.  It's completely my fault.  I will move on.

11             I actually have a hard copy of this page from the Drina plan,

12     what was P215.  Do you see that in the second paragraph about the "create

13     conditions for the establishment of a single state of the Serbian

14     people"?

15        A.   Yes, I saw that on the screen too.

16        Q.   And if you take a look now at tab 7 in your binder.  The first

17     page.  Under "objectives" it also talks about "to continue to create

18     conditions for the liberation and unification of all Serbian territories

19     in one state."  Would you agree that these objectives are similar?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. SAXON:  Thank you.  If we could remove that document, please.

22        Q.   And could you please turn to tab 8 in your binder, Mr. Simic?

23             MR. SAXON:  And if we could see Exhibit P1561 on the screen.

24        Q.   You see this document is entitled "The Use of Anti-Aircraft

25     Defence and Air Support Forces."  You see that?

Page 10164

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   PVO stands for anti-aircraft defence; am I right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And in the upper right we see "People's defence, state secret,

 5     Drina, attachment number 12, copy number 2."  And if you look in the

 6     bottom of the --

 7             MR. SAXON:  On the screen can we please see the bottom of the

 8     page in B/C/S, please.

 9        Q.   We see on the bottom of that page, we see a stamp of the Army of

10     Republika Srpska Main Staff.  So -- and it talks about at the start of

11     this document the first phase of the operation.  So would this be part of

12     a plan?  Can you explain to us how this document would fit into a

13     directive like the Drina plan?

14        A.   In the same manner as the one that we saw before, the attachment

15     to logistical support, only in this instance it refers to the air force

16     and anti-aircraft defence.

17             MR. SAXON:  Very well.  Your Honour, I note the time, shall we

18     stop for the day?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We shall if you are ready to stop.

20             Yes, sir.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I can ask, although I asked

22     Mr. Saxon during the break, can he tell me now the plan for

23     cross-examination.  It is important for me with a view to calling the

24     next witness.  I would very much appreciate if I would have the weekend

25     to work with the witness because I wouldn't like to have a new witness

Page 10165

 1     being brought into the courtroom late tomorrow afternoon.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You want Mr. Saxon to tell you his plan of

 3     cross-examination?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             MR. SAXON:  It's always difficult to be precise, as everyone

 6     understands, and it may depend on certain discussions or arguments that

 7     occur tomorrow on subsequent materials, but I believe I would take two

 8     sessions, perhaps a bit more tomorrow.  But approximately two sessions.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In that case, I would kindly ask the

12     Trial Chamber if there could possibly be some redirect that I would be

13     given some time to work with the next witness over the weekend?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand your request, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we finish fully with Mr. Simic

16     tomorrow and if we have only a little bit of time left before the end of

17     our working day, could I kindly ask you to allow me not to bring in the

18     next witness if we only have that little bit of time left at the end of

19     our work tomorrow so that I could work with the witness over the weekend.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  If Mr. Saxon is going to take at least

21     two sessions, you have redirect to do, there may be questions from the

22     Bench, there may be questions arising from the questions from the Bench,

23     so.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to remind you once again, Mr. Simic, that you

Page 10166

 1     may not talk to anybody and in particular to your lawyers about the case.

 2     You shall come back here tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

 3     The case stands adjourned to quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in

 4     Courtroom II.  Court adjourned.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.

 6                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of

 7                           February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.