Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10518

 1                           Friday, 5 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DAVID:  Good morning, all of you.  Please be seated.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you very much.  May we have the appearances

12     for today starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Good morning Your Honours.  Barney Thomas,

14     Carmela Javier, and Dan Saxon for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE DAVID:  And for the Defence?

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

17     morning to all.  On behalf of Mr. Perisic, Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith,

18     Tina Drolec, and Boris Zorko.

19             JUDGE DAVID:  Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.  I hope you had a very

20     rested night.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes,

22     indeed.

23             JUDGE DAVID:  I remind you that you are still bound by the oath

24     you have taken to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

25     truth.

Page 10519

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood, Your Honour.

 2                           WITNESS:  STAMENKO NIKOLIC [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic, please, you are yesterday just starting

 5     the summary of your case or you said something in relation to round up

 6     the case.

 7             I remind all of you that in the absence of Judge Moloto, we are

 8     sitting according to 15 bis today.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour

10     Judge David.

11                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:  [Continued]

12        Q.   In the last part of yesterday's session for the most part,

13     Mr. Nikolic, you were answering questions by the Judges.  All of that

14     followed from that draft decision, which is an exhibit.  I think this

15     is --

16        A.   I have it in front of me.

17        Q.   I will not be needing that exhibit for the time being.  P730,

18     just for the sake of the transcript, P730.

19             You were asked several questions by the Judges.  During today's

20     hearing, I'll probably be going back to those topics through a number of

21     other documents.  There are a couple of things I'd like to clarify with

22     you, specific answers, please.  All of this follows from our last subject

23     yesterday.

24             General, do you know from what point in time VRS officers and SVK

25     officers, former JNA officers were receiving salaries from the Federal

Page 10520

 1     Army of Yugoslavia.

 2        A.   Salaries of the professional members of the VRS, former JNA men

 3     and the soldiers of the SVK continually received salaries from --

 4        Q.   Just a minute.  From what point in time on.  The armies were

 5     established in 1992.  From what point in time on were these men receiving

 6     salaries from that source?

 7        A.   Well, they were receiving salaries even earlier on in 1991, and

 8     in 1992.  The cycle was never broken.

 9        Q.   The personnel centres were set up in November 1993.  Did these

10     men receive salaries even before the decision was taken to set those up?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Based on what decision?  Based on whose decision were they

13     receiving these salaries?

14        A.   Those men were receiving those salaries pursuant to a decision by

15     the supreme political body and supreme military command in the country.

16        Q.   What political body?

17        A.   Up until 1992, while the SFRY was still around, this would have

18     been the Presidency of the SFRY.  The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia then

19     came into being, and --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last part of

21     the witness's answer because he trailed off.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the federal government.  I do

23     apologise.  Because the federal government is in charge of defence

24     policies.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10521

 1        Q.   Thank you.  We talked yesterday.  We looked at that law, and we

 2     looked at all the elements that go to make up a salary.  We had the rank,

 3     the position, years of service.  We also looked at what all the other

 4     entitlements were that flow from one's status, professional status within

 5     the army.

 6             In order to be able to receive salaries as members of the VJ, do

 7     these men need to have their status formalised in any shape or form?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And had those men been members of the VJ would have taken a

10     special decision to regulate their status within the service?

11        A.   This applied to each member of the VJ.  In order for these men to

12     receive salaries, there has to be a document that is adopted regulating

13     their status within the service.

14        Q.   Where is that envisaged?  What regulation?

15        A.   The law on the VJ, earlier on it was called the Law on the Armed

16     Forces.

17        Q.   At those offices of the VRS and the SVK who were receiving

18     salaries even as early on as back in 1991 -- all right.  I'm going to --

19     at this point in time when the JNA -- maybe it's my mistake, well, I

20     don't know, it's when the JNA suddenly left the territory of the Croatian

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22             Had they been members of the VJ, would it have taken a special

23     decision to set up these personnel centres?

24        A.   Yes.  If I understand your question.  I do apologise.

25        Q.   If the law regulates their status within the service, these are

Page 10522

 1     your words, sir, would a special decision have been required for someone

 2     who --

 3        A.   No.  I'd --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  One speaker at a time,

 5     please.  Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Why was this necessary to formalise this?  Why did this require a

 8     decision by the supreme political body in the country for them to be able

 9     to exercise their entitlements, a special decision?

10        A.   The basic reason and the most important reason for such a

11     decision to be taken by the supreme political body and the Supreme

12     Command was to make sure there were records regarding each and every

13     member of the army, their whereabouts so that their status could be

14     ascertained.  No record, no man, no soldier.

15        Q.   Just a minute, please.  You mentioned these records.  I was

16     reading yesterday's transcript and then the questions by Judge Moloto and

17     Judge Picard.  I'll try to sum it up:  Why was it necessary to keep the

18     files of VRS and SVK army officers, yet there was no need to continued to

19     keep the records of those who had by now joined the Croatian Army or the

20     BH Army?

21        A.   The basic reason for records like that to be kept, which is also

22     a basis for regulating one's status within the service for the VRS and

23     the SVK, this stems from the highest-ranking political bodies for the

24     entitlements to continue within these two services in terms of their

25     status and in terms of everything else that flows from the service.  That

Page 10523

 1     was the basic reason.

 2        Q.   And you believe that there was a --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Would the speakers please

 4     be asked to observe a pause and may they please speak one at a time in

 5     order to ensure an accurate interpretation.  Thank you very much.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, we've been kindly asked by the interpreter to

 8     both ...

 9        A.   I understand.  I'll do my best.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Were you into politics at that time?  Were you actively involved

13     in politics?  Can you tell us here, without speculating, what the motives

14     might have been driving the politicians to adopt a decision like that?

15     Did you perhaps receive any information to that effect from your own

16     superiors, sir?

17             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, I may have missed an

18     answer, but if I missed an answer, then so did Madam Stenographer.  I

19     don't know if we ever got any answer to the questions about

20     General Nikolic's involvement in politics at the time.

21             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll withdraw the question until

24     later on.

25        Q.   Just a minute, please.  We'll be moving on to a different topic

Page 10524

 1     now and then later we'll be using some documents to return to what we

 2     have been speaking about now.

 3             Mr. Nikolic, let me start like this:  Do you know that Mr. Lilic

 4     and the political leadership eventually adopted a decision with regard to

 5     the problem that we've been discussing?  If so, when?

 6        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't hear you right.  When President Lilic came --

 7        Q.   Was any formal decision taken by the top-most political leaders

 8     in the country to regulate the status of those men?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Were you and your administration involved in any way in preparing

11     this opinion or proposal regarding that decision?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I would like to see another exhibit now, P1873, please, an OTP

14     exhibit.  This is a document comprising several documents.  I want to see

15     the letter written by Colonel Milos Kosic.

16        A.   I apologise.  Could someone please give me a hand.

17        Q.   General, it's marked as P1873.

18        A.   I've found it.

19        Q.   Page 1, please.  And you can -- you can manually go through the

20     other portions of the document.  That's what we'll be talking about.

21             What is this document?

22             Just for the record, this is document by the Federal Defence

23     Ministry, dated the 6th of October, 1993, to the office of the VJ Chief

24     of the General Staff.

25        A.   This is a document sent to the office of the VJ Chief of the

Page 10525

 1     General Staff dispatched by the Federal Defence Ministry, signed

 2     personally by General Kovac, the said chief.  This is an opinion of the

 3     administration for system status-related issues of the federal defence

 4     ministry in relation to a draft order adopted by the General Staff of the

 5     VJ, including a request to present our opinion on the amendments to this

 6     order, asking also whether they had our approval for certain amendments

 7     to the draft order that was presented.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much.  Next page, please.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in English,

10     too, please.  This is 16534 [In English] 6534 are the last numbers

11     because this is with ERN numbers in e-court.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] General, are you familiar with this document?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What is it that we see in front of us, and in what sense is this

15     document part of what you spoke about earlier?

16        A.   In this document the chief of the administration for system and

17     status issue in 1992 from whom I took over expresses his views and

18     suggestions concerning the order that was sent to us eliciting our

19     opinion on that.

20        Q.   I'm going to read to you paragraph 2.  I think that the English

21     interpreters will be able to follow:

22              "In this context and bearing in mind the responsibility of this

23     sector and existing regulations from that area, we believe that there are

24     no explicit legal grounds for such an order to deal with the issues

25     raised.  However, there is an apparent need for such a political decision

Page 10526

 1     to be made at the highest level of command and control, but it goes

 2     without saying that the possible implications that would result from

 3     this, especially from an international standpoint, will be assessed."

 4             At the time, you were in this administration but in a different

 5     sector; is that right?

 6             General, my question is:  Can you comment and tell us what

 7     Colonel Kosic meant by this, and did you take part in drafting this

 8     paragraph?

 9        A.   Colonel Kosic was the head the administration, and this was and

10     personal view of the administration that I myself drafted.

11        Q.   Now, when you say here there is no explicit legal grounds for

12     such an order, what did you mean by that?

13        A.   What we meant by that was that in the then regulations in force,

14     such as the Law on the Army and other bylaws, there was no valid or

15     explicitly defined legal ground for this proposed -- for the proposed

16     solutions contained herein.  If I may explain.

17        Q.   Yes.

18        A.   We sought to adapt the solutions with the existing provisions

19     from the law on the service in armed forces, and we primarily wanted to

20     use Article 4(2) --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slowly repeat the

22     numbers of the article.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Just a moment, please.  Can you please repeat the article numbers

25     slowly and the legislature that you're referring to.

Page 10527

 1        A.   I said that we tried to adapt these solutions to the existing

 2     provisions from the Law on the Service in Armed Forces, which was in

 3     force at the time.  Those were, particularly, Articles 271, 284, 493, and

 4     494 of the said law.

 5        Q.   What do these articles refer to?  What do they regulate?

 6        A.   Article 271 speaks about a possibility of sending or deploying

 7     personnel outside of the ranks of the JNA army.

 8             Article 284 similarly speaks about the sending and deployment of

 9     personnel outside of the JNA and the method for regulating their status

10     in these organs that do not belong to the JNA.

11             And Article 493 and also 494 stipulate the scope of

12     responsibility of people in charge to establish the situation and the

13     status in the service.

14             Article 493, it says that the status-related issues for the

15     people holding the ranks of General shall be regulated by the Presidency

16     of the SFRY, whereas Article 494 says that other instances are in charge

17     of regulating status-related issues for other personnel.

18        Q.   When you invoked these provisions in the Law on the Armed Forces,

19     also incorporated into the Law on the Army that was later adopted?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   We are going to go through some of the articles of that law, but

22     for now, I wanted to know what you meant by this second sentence where

23     you said:

24             "However, there is an apparent need for such a political decision

25     to be made at the highest level of command and control."

Page 10528

 1             This has to do with my previous question and the objection that

 2     came from Mr. Thomas.  So my question is:  Why did you include this

 3     particular paragraph in your letter?

 4        A.   Since the problems were piling up in the aftermath of the

 5     adoption of the decision to transform the JNA into the VJ and the

 6     decision to pull out the units from Bosnia-Herzegovina within a

 7     fortnight, we were faced with the most critical problem and that was how

 8     to put in order and update the records, primarily those referring to

 9     professional servicemen, what to do, if you allow me to say so, with the

10     basic database for those members of the army who either left the army or

11     joined other armies; and that is the so-called DPP2 file which served as

12     a database, like I said yesterday, for a centralised records of all army

13     members.

14             Also, one of the most sensitive questions that needed to be

15     resolved was the status of those members of the JNA who stayed behind in

16     those territories without having their status-related issues solved; and

17     we expressed confidence that there was need for this to be regulated but

18     that this, however, goes beyond the scope of responsibilities and

19     authority of the Chief of General Staff.

20             Therefore, we proposed that the Supreme Defence Council should

21     use its prerogatives enshrined in the constitution and pass a decision on

22     how to resolve the status-related issues of these particular type of

23     personnel.

24        Q.   When you say that a decision should be taken at the highest level

25     of command and control, which particular body did you have in mind?

Page 10529

 1        A.   In the draft of the Law on the Army and in the constitution of

 2     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as well, which was promulgated on the

 3     27th of April, 1992, this issue is regulated in that the army in

 4     peacetime shall be commanded by the president of the Federal Republic of

 5     Yugoslavia pursuant to decisions taken by the Supreme Defence Council.

 6             In the next article, it says that as for the engagement of army

 7     and use of army shall be subject to a decision by the chairman of the

 8     Supreme Defence Council but in accordance with the Law on the Army.

 9        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, this is not a criticism.  What you told me, you

10     could have just put it in one sentence, and I'm telling this for the sake

11     of time.

12        A.   The highest organ in this instance was the Supreme Defence

13     Council and Commander-in-Chief.

14        Q.   When I'm asking you a specific answer -- question, I'm expecting

15     a specific answer.

16             Now, can you please comment on the last portion of this

17     paragraph.  Why did you write the following:

18              "... possible implications that would result from this,

19     especially from an international aspect will be assessed."

20             What did you mean by this?

21        A.   Well, bearing in mind that the then Yugoslavia was both under the

22     sanctions and under various pressures, there was a tendency -- or,

23     rather, we assumed that this approach might produce some political

24     implications at that particular period of time.

25        Q.   Thank you.  That's all I wanted to hear.  We shall now move on to

Page 10530

 1     the next document.  The subject is the same.  Can we have, please, P1872

 2     on our screen.  It is actually a document that contains multiple

 3     documents, and I'd like that General and I go through all of those.  Let

 4     us just wait for it to appear on our screens.

 5        A.   Please, can you tell me again what the number of the exhibit?

 6        Q.   It's P1872.

 7        A.   Yes, I have found it.

 8        Q.   First we have the covering letter, and it says five attachments.

 9             Can you tell me more about the whole set of documents that we are

10     going to discuss now?

11        A.   On page 1 of this document, as it was customary, there was a

12     communication between various chiefs, and here we have the Federal

13     Ministry of Defence is being informed that the General -- the Chief of

14     General Staff had approved a certain draft order provided by the

15     administration for system and status-related issues of the Federal

16     Ministry for Defence, and it goes on to say that some of the remarks had

17     been accepted and then some were not.

18        Q.   Can we now who have to page 2 in both versions, please.  This

19     document has three pages in total.  General, can you tell us what this

20     document represents?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The English translation should be

22     ERN -- yes, we have it.  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you yourself pointed out that

24     this document contains three pages and an attachment, I see this as a

25     preparation or a speaking note for the Chief of General Staff for the

Page 10531

 1     Supreme Defence Council that is expected to adopt a certain decision.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Paragraph 1.  I'm not willing to read it all together, but I

 4     would like you to comment upon it for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

 5        A.   In paragraph 1 of this document, the Chief of General Staff would

 6     like to inform the Supreme Defence Council about the fact that following

 7     the decision to rename the JNA to the Yugoslav Army and the returning of

 8     its members in the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the

 9     open -- or the matter unresolved was the legal position and personal

10     status of all active JNA servicemen, civilians, who have remained in the

11     Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of Serbian Krajina, and he provided

12     figures for both of these armies.

13        Q.   Can we please look at page 2 in English, and I think it's also

14     page 2 in B/C/S -- or, rather, the next page.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, can you please look

16     paragraph 5.  I'm going to read it out to the witness and then ask him to

17     comment upon it.

18        Q.   General, I'm reading at the bottom of page 2, and it reads as

19     follows:

20             "The relevant office of the Yugoslav Army would make all these

21     persons available and send them to a special organ of the Yugoslav Army

22     General Staff (Personnel Administration) based in Belgrade.  Further

23     procedure to organise and implement the departure of these persons and

24     resolve their status in service while they're outside of the

25     Yugoslav Army will be taken over by the authorised organs of the

Page 10532

 1     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska or the Republic of Serbian

 2     Krajina.  All the rights of these active servicemen and civilians would

 3     be enjoyed in the same manner and scope as for other professionals in the

 4     Yugoslav Army."

 5             So could you please comment on what the document says.  Is that a

 6     fair translation and does it tally with what we were talking about a

 7     minute ago in terms of looking for a solution to this problem?

 8        A.   Yes.  May I comment, please?

 9        Q.   By all means.  Go ahead.

10        A.   They are referring here to these persons at the Belgrade

11     Garrison, and they're saying that an administrative body shall be set up,

12     an organisational unit, to put these men together and send them to the

13     VRS and the SVK.  This is associated with the Personnel Administration,

14     meaning that any further steps taken after these men were dispatched

15     would be entirely for the VRS and the SVK.  Chief of the General Staff

16     emphasises, though, in terms of protecting the entitlements and rights of

17     these men, the same status will be given to them as those in the VJ.

18        Q.   Does this also refer to persons who, at the time this document

19     was produced, had long been serving in the VRS?

20        A.   Yes.  Paragraph 1 tells you exactly about what categories of

21     persons we are looking at here.

22        Q.   Can we now please go to a chart that we can find on the following

23     page.

24             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Thomas.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Sorry, Your Honours.  A clarification, please for

Page 10533

 1     that answer.  Is the witness referring to paragraph 1 of the page as it

 2     presently appears on the screen, or is he referring to paragraph 1 of the

 3     actual document?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   General, when I asked you about the categories of persons that

 6     this draft decision is in relation to, and I asked you about persons who

 7     were at that time already members of the VRS, can you give us a reference

 8     for that?  What exactly in this document tells us that the category

 9     includes these men?

10        A.   It's about regulating the personal status of all active-duty

11     military personnel from the JNA who now remained in the VRS and in the

12     SVK.  It is also in relation to those persons being sent to those areas

13     at some later stage.

14        Q.   Where does it say that?

15        A.   When the Chief of the General Staff first takes the floor, he

16     goes on to speak about that.  Paragraph 1.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.  Can we now please go to the chart or the

18     table with is on page 5 in the B/C/S document and page 6 in the English.

19        A.   I've got it.

20        Q.   General, all right.  Thank you.  What is this information that

21     we're looking at?

22        A.   This is an attachment to what the Chief of the General Staff of

23     the Supreme Defence Council said.  It gives you an overview of the

24     numbers of active-duty servicemen in the VRS and the SVK.  Should I

25     continue to comment?  Thank you.

Page 10534

 1             Look at this overview or list, we see exactly under Article 271,

 2     that was discussed a minute ago, how many men were sent and how many men

 3     were found in terms of those who remained in the area following the

 4     withdrawal of the JNA.  Those were former JNA members who had joined the

 5     VRS.  Similar information also applies to the SVK.

 6             The last thing we see is the total.  If you want me to comment on

 7     the figures, please say so.

 8        Q.   This is a document dated the 8th of October, 1993.  Based on this

 9     chart or table, can you tell us how many members were in the VRS, those

10     whose status needed regulating on the day the chart was drafted, and how

11     many of these men were in the SVK?

12        A.   In the VRS, 2.630 men.  As for the SVK, a total of 982 men.  In

13     total, 3.612 men for both these armies.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I'm done with this document and would now like to

15     move on, finally, to Prosecution Exhibit P731.  This is President Lilic's

16     order dated the 10th of November, 1993.

17             General, are you familiar with this document, and how does that

18     compare to everything that we've been talking about?

19        A.   Yes.  This is an order by the supreme commander, the president of

20     the Supreme Defence Council.  In its preamble, you can see that it

21     invokes a basis for an order like this to be adopted.

22             Should I add anything?

23        Q.   The basis is stated here, and it's all in evidence already.

24     Therefore, there's no need to dwell on this.

25             Could you please read paragraph 1 of this order.  It's an order;

Page 10535

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What does this order mean to the Chief of the General Staff?

 4        A.   To the Chief of the General Staff, this order is a basis and also

 5     an obligation to act accordingly, to act on this order.  His tasks are

 6     set out here telling him what he should do in terms of regulating the

 7     status and entitlements of active-duty servicemen.

 8        Q.   Paragraph 1 states:

 9             "The General Staff of the VJ shall organ keep a special record on

10     active-duty servicemen, contract servicemen, and civilian employees of

11     the former JNA who remained in the territory of Republika Srpska and the

12     Republic of Serbian Krajina, and profession servicemen and civilians

13     employed in the Yugoslav Army who were born in the former SFRY republics

14     of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina and were admitted to military

15     schools or joined the JNA from these republics."

16             We talked about this yesterday, and even today you talked with

17     these records.  Does this have anything to do with the problem regarding

18     these records?  Is there a task being issued here in relation to these

19     records?

20        A.   As I've said a number of times in answer to your questions, the

21     records were the fundamental problem being faced at the time.  Finally,

22     the president of the Supreme Defence Council, the Commander-in-Chief,

23     which I think is something of an unusual gesture for him to take on the

24     responsibility to say exactly what this order regulates.  So he states

25     right at the outset that one must organise and keep special records.

Page 10536

 1     This is one of the fundamental criteria set out in this record.  Special

 2     records, and I'm not going to read again what you just read.  He also

 3     defines the categories of persons that this applies to.

 4        Q.   Paragraph 3, the second part of paragraph 3:

 5             "Throughout this period, these individuals --" and probably means

 6     the people's whose records are kept -- or rather, I won't paraphrase

 7     this, no.  Let me take a minute to read it.

 8             Where -- what -- which body is being established here pursuant to

 9     this order?

10        A.   A body to regulate these issues that you quoted in paragraph 3,

11     and the bodies named in paragraph 4 of this document.  The president of

12     the republic, the Commander-in-Chief, talks about the implementation of

13     these plans to do with special, and then he goes on to emphasise

14     personnel centres, not command centres, personnel centres.  As for your

15     question, sir.

16        Q.   It says -- I'm reading Article 3, the latter portion.

17             "... these individuals shall retain all the rights pertaining to

18     their rank and qualification, retain the salary that they had in the post

19     they occupied before the current assignment, or they shall receive the

20     salary envisaged for the new post, whichever is more favourable for the

21     individual."

22             What is this in relation to in terms of the reasons for the

23     establishment of these personnel centres?

24        A.   When the president of the republic specifies that throughout

25     the -- this time these persons would be keeping their entitlements

Page 10537

 1     according to their rank, and we talked about that yesterday.  What does

 2     that mean?  It's a salary that is rank based.  There are a number of

 3     points that is awarded, and the salary is then calculated, and then the

 4     position within a group that the person was assigned to before they were

 5     ever dispatched or after they were dispatched, just incase this person

 6     suffers no detriment whatsoever and this person is now appointed to a

 7     different duty in terms of the salary that is due him under the law.

 8             What this does, in practical terms, is to protect all these

 9     persons to make sure they can exercise their rights and entitlements as

10     defined here.

11        Q.   Are formal conditions created here for their rights and

12     entitlements to be exercised that they had from earlier on?

13        A.   Yes, and that's exactly what this order means.

14        Q.   Paragraph 4, sir.  Tasks are specified here for the Chief of the

15     General Staff in relation to these personnel centres.  What I want to

16     know is your comment on the last task set out here, the method of dealing

17     with the status in the service and protecting the rights from their

18     remaining service of these members and their families.

19             Is that not one of the tasks for the personnel centre?

20        A.   Paragraph 4 of the order talks about that.  It particularly

21     points out for the implementation on certain plans for the work of these

22     personnel centres, and there's a list of what they should do, and then

23     hereby authorise the Chief of the General Staff to deal with such and

24     such issues.  And then finally where it goes on to say, this is the last

25     sentence, the procedure to regulate their status within the service and

Page 10538

 1     to protect the rights and entitlements of these persons and their

 2     families.  That is the fundamental tasks that the personnel centres are

 3     now facing.

 4        Q.   General, in your own words what did you understand these

 5     personnel centres to be and what did you understand their work to be?

 6        A.   By virtue of this order, the tasks and activities are defined

 7     that the personnel centres would be in charge of.  That is why I said

 8     this order was peculiar - I do apologise for the expression - in the

 9     sense of being different from the other documents.  This order gives the

10     Chief of the General Staff a very say -- sound basis for regulating a

11     whole number of other issues.

12             The fundamental task and function of this order on personnel

13     centres would be twofold if you asked me.  The fundamental function, the

14     decisive function, is to keep special files covering certain categories

15     of persons as defined here.  The other function would be to regulate

16     their situation within the service in terms of their status, rights, and

17     entitlements under the rules of service.

18        Q.   President Lilic invokes the Supreme Defence Council and one of

19     its meetings in the preamble to this order.

20        A.   Yes, that is true.

21        Q.   President of the republic or his -- does the president of the

22     republic have a military cabinet?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Does this military cabinet have some sort of legal service that

25     is its component?

Page 10539

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What exactly does this legal service or legal team do?

 3        A.   I never studied their rules, the rules of their work.

 4     Nevertheless, their job would have been to prepare documents for the

 5     supreme commander, the president of the Supreme Defence Council, in

 6     keeping with the laws and the constitution, and, of course, in keeping

 7     with its own powers.  Any document sent by the General Staff, the

 8     government, a ministry, or any other federal organ must, of course, be

 9     reviewed, co-ordinated, and agreed upon.

10        Q.   General, do you know, after the issuing of this orders -- order,

11     if the personnel centres were set up and who issued this specific order?

12        A.   Pursuant to the order of the Commander-in-Chief and, by his

13     authority, the Chief of General Staff within the scope of responsibility

14     conferred on him by the president of Yugoslavia, set up these personnel

15     centres.  The -- President Lilic's order did not specify the personnel

16     centres.  However, what he established were the 30th and the 40th

17     personnel centres.  These centres, pursuant to the order of the Chief of

18     General Staff, became part of the personnel administration of the sector

19     for system and status-related issue of the General Staff of the VJ.

20        Q.   Later, in 1995, you went to the General Staff.  We'll talk about

21     it later, but let's just mention this thing at this point.  When you went

22     to visit those centres, can you tell me how many people you saw working

23     there?  Can you just illustrate the situation for us?

24        A.   When I assumed the duty of the chief of the personnel

25     administration, as I said yesterday, and that took place on the 31st of

Page 10540

 1     December, 1998, I only had one personnel centre, the 30th Personnel

 2     Centre, as part might have administration, because the 40th Personnel

 3     Centre had already been disbanded at the time.  The composition of that

 4     personnel centre, because I was in charge of administrative issues that

 5     were coming from the General Staff, actually amounted to 10 to 12

 6     persons.  As far as I remember, there were four to six officers, three to

 7     four non-commissioned officers, and the rest were civilians.

 8             I'm not talking here about the personnel who were given the

 9     function of commanding, but, rather, leading and directing people in

10     terms of performing the tasks given to them, and that is what we

11     mentioned a while ago, was to keep records and resolve status-related

12     issues.

13             If you would allow me, I would like to say that these were people

14     within the general VES, which is the military speciality, i.e., people

15     who were versed in finances or other areas or people who simply dealt

16     with personnel issues.

17             Non-commissioned officers were mainly involved in information

18     technology work.

19        Q.   Do you know the name of the person who was at the head of the

20     30th Personnel Centre?  Who was his direct superior?

21        A.   Colonel Biga, Milan, was at the head of this department, if I

22     remember correctly.  This personnel centre actually had only one

23     department and one general sector, and I said that it numbered -- the

24     staff numbered 10 to 12 people.

25        Q.   His post was called chief?

Page 10541

 1        A.   Yes.  He was chief of the personnel centre.  And another person

 2     who was a lieutenant-colonel was the chief of the centre, and, as I said,

 3     the total number of posts in the centre was between 10 and 12.

 4        Q.   And to whom was the chief of the personnel centre answerable to

 5     directly?

 6        A.   He was directly responsible to the chief of the personnel

 7     administration.

 8        Q.   Let us now look at -- no.  Before that, while we still have this

 9     document on the screen, item 5 of President Lilic's order reads as

10     follows:

11             "For the implementation of all the assignments from this Order

12     that fall within the competence of the Federal Ministry of Defence,

13     ensure full co-ordination and co-operation between the General Staff of

14     the Yugoslav Army and this Ministry."

15        A.   When we spoke about the responsibilities and competence of the

16     Federal Ministry of Defence, inter alia, we said that one of its duties

17     was to provide financial means and to codify certain issues.  In that

18     sense, president, as the Commander-in-Chief, requires co-ordination to be

19     established and that it be implemented in practice by all these involved

20     within their respective domains.

21        Q.   Thank you, General.  Let us now move to another document, which I

22     also think is important for this topic.  That's P734.  It's an

23     instruction on how the personnel centres are going to function and

24     operate.

25             While we're waiting for the document, which is dated the 8th of

Page 10542

 1     December, 1993, I will first go through a number of items that I think

 2     were important, but before that, can you tell me who passed this document

 3     and what is its significance?

 4        A.   Pursuant to an order issued by the Chief of General Staff, which

 5     was harmonised with an order of the chairman of the Supreme Defence

 6     Council and the Commander-in-Chief, the Chief of General Staff issued a

 7     task to the personnel administration to adopt, as soon as possible,

 8     instructions on the functioning and programme of activities of special

 9     personnel centres.  And in the preamble, you can see on the basis of

10     which laws and which orders these instructions were issued.

11        Q.   This is a relatively long document.  It's made up of several

12     parts.  The first part is called "General work principles."  Then we have

13     the next chapter, "Record-keeping."  Third chapter is "Secondment and

14     transfer."  Chapter 4, "Special procedures for relating status-related

15     issues and other rights."  And the fifth and last chapter is

16     "Repatriation and -- of professional soldiers and their transfer from the

17     personnel centres."

18             Now, my question, General, is, because I think that the first

19     item explains the underlying reason for adopting this particular

20     document.  I'm not going to read it, but can you tell me this:  Was it

21     necessary to draft such a long instructions if -- to secure a proper

22     functioning the army?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I probably put a too complicated question to you.  So for the

25     purpose of regulating status and keeping records on members of the VJ,

Page 10543

 1     was this kind of instruction necessary?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Can you please comment, but I'm not going to ask you to comment

 4     number 1, which I think is quite clear, but, rather, your comment on item

 5     4, and I'm going to read it.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  You can see, Your Honours, item 4 in

 7     English, and it reads:

 8             "For people in the KC service of professional soldiers and

 9     civilians from entering into professional military service, resolving

10     service status, promotion, exercising other service rights, and until

11     cessation of professional military service shall be regulated in line

12     with procedure and pursuant to the regulations relating to the

13     Yugoslav Army."

14        Q.   Can you tell me why was it important to say a thing like this

15     explicitly in item number 4 of these instructions?

16        A.   It's been emphasised here a necessity, or, rather, an obligation

17     of high-ranking officers; and it refers to the Army of Republika Srpska

18     and the Army of Serbian Krajina whose duty was to regulate the service

19     status of professional servicemen in these armies respectively and to

20     follow up the procedures that pertain to the Yugoslav Army, the main

21     reason being for them to be able to exercise their rights that they are

22     entitled to as members of these army.

23        Q.   But where are these members of the VRS and the SVK exercising

24     these rights?

25        A.   Through the 30th and the 40th Personnel Centres in Belgrade.  I

Page 10544

 1     don't know if I was clear, if you need any additional information.

 2        Q.   What institution specifically enabled them to exercise those

 3     rights?  You said the personnel centre, but they were part of what?

 4        A.   Every order relating to status-related issues, a copy of that

 5     order is provided to the financial and computing centre on the basis of

 6     which the person exercised these rights.  If it's something to do with

 7     the salary, if you do with some financial matters, it goes there.

 8     However, if it has to do with some medical issues, it is sent to a

 9     department where this fund is going to provide solutions for these

10     problems, and this department was part of the Federal Ministry of

11     Defence.

12             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Thomas.

14             MR. THOMAS:  I'm not certain.  It might be an answer to the

15     question, but the question that was posed was:

16             "What institution specifically enabled them to exercise those

17     rights?  You said the personnel centre, but they were part of what?"

18             So at present, the record shows that the witness's answer was an

19     answer to the question.  If that's what my learned friend was attempting

20     to do then he needn't do anything more, but I just make that observation,

21     Your Honours.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  May I have a minute to look at it,

23     Your Honours?

24             JUDGE DAVID:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  First of all, I think that something

Page 10545

 1     was omitted from the answer, so I think the best approach would be for me

 2     to repeat the question.

 3        Q.   General -- well, maybe it's not even necessary.  Just a moment.

 4     Just a moment.  I'll try to be as simple as possible.

 5             Which institutions -- in which state, in which country, did these

 6     people exercise those rights?

 7        A.   That was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Army of

 8     Yugoslavia.

 9        Q.   You mentioned the computing centre?

10        A.   Yes.  That was an executive body attached to Federal Ministry of

11     Defence.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, maybe this is a good

13     time for us to take a break.

14             JUDGE DAVID:  [Microphone not activated] court is adjourned we

15     will return at 10.45.  Court is adjourned.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

18             JUDGE DAVID:  Please be seated.

19             Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Sir, Exhibit 191, the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have that on our

23     screens, and we shall no longer be requiring the present document.

24        Q.   I'm not sure if you have that in front of you, P191.  I'll be

25     asking you a number general questions and not covering the document as a

Page 10546

 1     whole.  What we see on our screens is the Law on the VRS, published in

 2     the Official Gazette of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the

 3     1st of June, 1992.  You commented on this article, actually, on day one

 4     of your evidence.  This is Article 337, towards the very end of this

 5     document.  I'm not sure about the ERN page number.

 6             JUDGE DAVID:  Just a second.  We don't have the transcript

 7     functioning in my ...

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can you hold it a minute there

 9     because we're waiting for the LiveNote to start operating.

10             JUDGE DAVID:  Registry informed me that we will take a minute or

11     two to restart the transcript.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask a question?

13             JUDGE DAVID:  We are ready now to start.  Mr. Lukic, continue,

14     please.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, no need for you to be looking at the document, just

17     listen to my question, please.

18             JUDGE DAVID: [Microphone not activated] informed that you should

19     repeat the beginning of your questioning because nothing has been

20     incorporated into the transcript.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.  Thank

22     you.

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I asked for Exhibit P191, it's on our screens.  This

24     is the Law on VRS, published in the Official Gazette of the Serbian

25     People of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 1st of June, 1992.  I'm not sure

Page 10547

 1     if you have a hardcopy in front of you, sir.

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let us move on to Article 377, the B/C/S reference is

 4     37 and the English reference is page 55.

 5        A.   Article 377, all right.

 6        Q.   I'll read this back to you.  You just try and listen so there is

 7     no need for you to even look for it.  After all, it's right in front of

 8     you on the screen.

 9        A.   Oh, yes.

10        Q.   We are looking at the transitional and final provisions of this

11     Law on the VRS.  It says:

12             "On the day this law enters into force active commissioned

13     officers, junior officers, and army personnel of the Yugoslav People's

14     Army, citizens of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina will become

15     active-duty officers and NCOs of the VRS.  Those who are its citizens, as

16     all the citizens of the other countries that were components of the

17     former Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, those who wish to

18     serve in the VRS and whose service is required."

19             Let me ask you, first of all, if you are familiar with the Law on

20     the VRS.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What exactly does this article of the law regulate?

23        A.   Article 377, transitional and final provisions, specifically

24     regulates that on the day the law enters into force the specified groups

25     of persons, and I'm not going to be repeating that because you've read it

Page 10548

 1     back to us already, under these conditions can now become active-duty

 2     officers, professional members of the VRS under certain conditions.

 3        Q.   Fine.  All right.  My next question:  Does this mean that from

 4     this moment on the Law on the VRS shall be applied in their cases as

 5     well?

 6        A.   Yes, that's what it means.

 7        Q.   What about the Law on the VRS specifically?  Did it have among

 8     it's provisions something regulating their status as servicemen and the

 9     relationships within the VRS?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   The officers specified in Article 377, and I'm here focusing on

12     the former JNA members remaining, who assigns them to particular posts,

13     gives them certain duties or promotes them, for example, under the Law on

14     the VRS?

15        A.   That depends on each person's rank, establishment position, the

16     group they belonged to and how their position within the service is

17     regulating.  For example, if you have someone holding the rank of

18     general, under the law of Republika Srpska, it would have been the

19     Commander-in-Chief or the president of the republic who was in charge of

20     that.  And our solution was quite similar too.  As for all other

21     officers, the defence minister would have been in charge of those.  In

22     keeping with the law, he would have had the power to transfer his power

23     to other persons, the Chief of the Main Staff of the VRS and the corps

24     commanders.

25        Q.   And who was the President of Republika Srpska, or, for that

Page 10549

 1     matter, the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS?

 2        A.   I do.

 3        Q.   And that would be?

 4        A.   Following the establishment of Republika Srpska, the supreme

 5     commander at the time, as far as I remember, was Radovan Karadzic.

 6     Following a meeting of the Assembly, I think he was followed by

 7     Ms. Plavsic and after that Sarvic, as far as I remember.

 8        Q.   And the commander of the Main Staff?

 9        A.   There was an Assembly meeting that was held deciding that the

10     post should be filled by colonel-general at the time, Ratko Mladic.

11        Q.   Did the Republic of Serbian Krajina have it's own supreme

12     commander and commander of the Main Staff as well?

13        A.   Yes, it did.

14        Q.   Do you know who these people were?

15        A.   Yes.  I'm aware of who they were at one point in time.  I can't

16     remember the exact date though.  For a while this was Martic, and then

17     there was Babic for a period of time as well.  As for the first commander

18     of the SVK, it was General Milan Novakovic.

19        Q.   Let us please now go back to the instructions that we --

20     guidelines that we discussed a while ago concerning the work of the

21     special personnel centres.

22        A.   I'm sorry, I'll probably have to take a minute to find it.

23        Q.   Is there any reference in this document to the service of these

24     persons in the VRS or the SVK, how they were appointed, how they were

25     promoted, what their careers were like in these two armies.

Page 10550

 1        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't hear your question.

 2        Q.   The guidelines on -- on the functioning and work of the special

 3     personnel centres.  If you go back to that, you look at it, does it say

 4     anything about the way these persons are now appointed to their posts or

 5     promoted or how their careers should evolve now that they are members of

 6     the VRS or the SVK?

 7        A.   Yes, but there's an additional explanation, if I may.  The

 8     guidelines regulate, generally speaking, the status of all men in the VRS

 9     and the SVK.  All men.  No exception.

10        Q.   But that wasn't my question.  That wasn't my question.  My

11     question is, and please listen carefully, do these guidelines mention

12     anything or refer to how they should be moving about within the -- their

13     service in the VRS or the SVK?

14        A.   All right.  Sorry.  I didn't understand that the first time

15     round.

16        Q.   It may have been my fault.  I'm sorry.  Who regulates their

17     movement within the service and their status within the service

18     specifically in the VRS and the SVK?

19        A.   Anything that happens in terms of their careers within these two

20     armies, the VRS and the SVK, is within the sole remit of the relevant

21     officers who are in charge, and they have to do this in keeping with the

22     regulations that applied to both the VRS and the SVK, and it all has to

23     be in keeping with their laws and constitutions.

24        Q.   The relevant officers of which army?

25        A.   Like, for example, we said a while ago --

Page 10551

 1        Q.   Which armies?

 2        A.   In the VRS, it would have been the supreme commander, the

 3     president of the republic for anyone holding the rank of general.  For

 4     everyone else, the person responsible would have been the defence

 5     minister who, however, transferred his powers or his powers to other

 6     persons.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  One correction in the transcript.

 8     Page 33, line 6.  When I asked the witness a question, he said no, which

 9     was not recorded in the transcript.  And then later on he gave an answer.

10     That was page 33, line 1, as a matter of fact.  Part of the witness's

11     answer.  I asked him a question.  The witness said, "No."  If need be, I

12     can repeat my question, but I think everyone heard it loud and clear.

13        Q.   When we spoke about the drafting of solutions for regulating

14     status-related issues of these personnel and about record-keeping, you

15     mentioned that adaptations were made in order to put in line these issue

16     with certain regulations and later with the Law on Yugoslavia.  What did

17     you mean by that?  In what way were the status-related issues of these

18     personnel adapted to the solutions provided in the law?

19        A.   I had in mind the provisions of the Law on the Yugoslav Army that

20     govern what is considered to be a military service, what is considered to

21     be service outside of the JNA or the VJ, what is considered the system of

22     salary payments.  I was referring to responsibilities.  I was referring

23     to the conditions that someone has to fulfil to become a professional

24     active serviceman.  I was referring to the time required to spend in a

25     certain post with a certain rank to become eligible for promotion.  I was

Page 10552

 1     referring to specify characteristics of one military service in a

 2     specific army, and I was referring to the VRS that can affect on the

 3     overall military service.  I was referring to the method of applying

 4     certain regulation that define the right to salary under the Law on the

 5     VJ, and I analysed the provisions of this law that you just mentioned.  I

 6     found that the solutions were almost identical.

 7        Q.   Just one more question to make it all clear.  We have seen the

 8     table pertaining to October 1993, which shows the number of the so-called

 9     former JNA who became members of the VRS and SVK either from the

10     beginning or was sent later.  Did these men, did all members of the VRS,

11     or did all officers of the VRS, or only specific categories, received

12     their salaries through the personnel centre?  If you can say which

13     particular categories, if that would be your answer.

14        A.   I'm going to try and give you two answers, because there are two

15     questions in your question.

16             According to what I know, the numerical strengths of the VRS was

17     between 200 and 250.000 troops, including military personnel, i.e.,

18     around 15.000 commissioned officers and 15.000 non-commissioned officers.

19     I'm sorry, I'm not sure about the exact figure.  However, from this table

20     we saw that the minimum number was given who were entitled to receive

21     salaries.  The total number concerning the whole period varies between

22     4.000 and 4.700, including the civilians in the -- that were payable by

23     the VJ, and the Army of Serbian Krajina never exceeded the figure of

24     4.000.  So if you compare the overall number of personnel in the army,

25     this is really a minimum number of servicemen entitled to receive this.

Page 10553

 1                           [Defence counsel confer]

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Page 35, line 8, you said 4.000 and 4.700, including the

 4     civilians, and you mentioned the VRS.

 5        A.   Yes.  I was speaking only about the VRS.  And the total number of

 6     the Army of the SVK never exceeded 4.000.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the numbers of

 8     the VRS army.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation] [In English] 65 ter 00470D.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] I don't know, General, if you will be able to

11     find it in your binder.

12        A.   Yes, I've found it.

13        Q.   General, I don't know how the Chamber will be able to deal with

14     this translation of the document, because we don't have figures in the

15     translation, but first of all, tell us something about this document.

16     Are you familiar with it?

17        A.   This document was produced by the administration for system and

18     status-related issues of the federal MOD, which was under my

19     jurisdiction.  I remember these figures, and I remember exactly when this

20     table was typed, and I can tell you that this table was produced at the

21     request of the chairman of the Supreme Defence Council for the purpose of

22     regulating the rights that I spoke about earlier.  And it says precisely

23     here in the title "Numerical strength of professional soldiers ..."

24        Q.   For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, we have to say that we here

25     have certain categories, and underline 16, and I'm going to read for the

Page 10554

 1     record the figure under column 7.

 2             However, my question is:  When was this numerical strength

 3     recorded?

 4        A.   In May 1995.

 5        Q.   I'm going to read the figures which says that in May 1992 [as

 6     interpreted], in the 30th Personnel Centre, there were recorded

 7     2generals, 1.252 officers, which means a total of 1.264.  Then we have --

 8     no.  My mistake, 12 generals.  My mistake.  Commissioned --

 9     non-commissioned officers, 1.012, and that translates into the necessary

10     funds.

11             I apologise to the interpreter.  We have to correct.  I said May

12     1995.  Page 36, line 16.

13             So is this the number of active-duty officers who received

14     salaries through the 30th Personnel Centre in May 1995?

15        A.   You mentioned the figure of 2.276 members, but you have to add

16     the soldiers on contract to this figure.

17        Q.   I'm trying to make a comparison between this category and --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The speakers are

19     overlapping.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the next page

21     of this document which pertains to the 40th Personnel Centre.  Next page,

22     please.  That's number 3 in B/C/S.  And we have actually the first page

23     uploaded twice.

24        Q.   And the format is similar, so I'm going to read some figures from

25     the table, and you will tell me if I am correct or not.  And says that in

Page 10555

 1     May 1995, in the 40th Personnel Centre and for monthly net funds, there

 2     were, on record, 4 generals, 487 officers, which makes a total of 491

 3     officers, and 434 non-commissioned officers, which makes a total of 925.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we have this document admitted

 6     into evidence, Your Honours, please.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the President, please.

 8             JUDGE DAVID:  [Microphone not activated] Registry, let's give a

 9     number to -- [microphone not activated]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be

11     assigned Exhibit D246.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   General, given that you were working at this particular

15     administration at the time, do you know whether during certain periods

16     after salaries had started being paid to these members of the VRS and SVK

17     through the ministry, were there any suspensions in these payments?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we now see document P1870.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, 27 --

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   No.  It's 1870.  Do you have it on your screen?  Can you see it,

23     General?  If not, we shall wait for you to find the hard copy.

24        A.   I found it.  1870?

25        Q.   That's right.  What do you know about this document?  Let me just

Page 10556

 1     say that this came from the Chief of General Staff, Zivota Panic, dated

 2     22nd of June, 1993.

 3        A.   I can tell you that I know a lot, because I had some personal

 4     problems owing to this document.  The decision of the Supreme Defence

 5     Council whose session was attended by Zivota Panic, the then General

 6     Chief of Staff on the 22nd of June, 1993, was to suspend all payments to

 7     this category of people.

 8        Q.   What kind of category?

 9        A.   Well, you can read it under item number 1, and it says, "People

10     in the service of the Army of Republika Srpska."

11             If I can give my opinion why this happened.

12        Q.   Don't give us your opinion.  Tell us what you know.

13        A.   That was the result of the refusal to accept the

14     Vance-Stoltenberg Plan by the political leadership of Republika Srpska.

15        Q.   Under item 1, it is said that they shall be rendered invalid, and

16     then they mention documents of the SSNO of the 6th of May and the 17th of

17     May.  Were these documents the basis for the payment effected to these

18     particular servicemen?

19        A.   Since I was, in 1992, in the administration for system and

20     status-related issues, I didn't look at these particular documents, but I

21     suppose that these documents served as a kind of transitional solution

22     for effecting payments in order not to -- in order to maintain

23     continuation.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we now have document 65 ter

25     01258D.

Page 10557

 1        Q.   General?

 2        A.   Yes, I have found it.

 3        Q.   Can you please wait for it to appear on the screen.  The document

 4     we've just seen was dated the 22nd June.  This one was produced a little

 5     more than a month later.  What can you tell us about this document?  Are

 6     you familiar with it?

 7        A.   Yes, I am.  After the Supreme Defence Council decided to suspend

 8     all payments to the listed categories of people, the Deputy Chief of the

 9     General Staff, Colonel-General Dragoljub Simonovic, personally addressed

10     the Supreme Defence Council and asked that for the sake of the existence

11     and -- of these people for this ban to be lifted.

12        Q.   I would like to go to paragraph 2 of this document, which reads:

13             "Due to the grave consequences vis-a-vis the financial situation

14     of the families of these men and as approved by the FRY Supreme Defence

15     Council at a session held on the 19th of June, 1993, the federal defence

16     minister, pursuant to his authority, decided to make advance payments of

17     salaries to these men as compensation in the amount of 70 per cent."

18             What's your comment on that, sir?

19        A.   When I said that I was facing a great deal of difficulty as head

20     of the administration for the status-related issues - and I'm sorry I'm

21     expanding on this - I said that I was facing a great deal of trouble

22     because families kept coming looking for solutions.  There was a certain

23     amount of pressure.  The administration of the system and status-related

24     issues in the General Staff of Yugoslavia initiated a meeting of the

25     Supreme Defence Council several days later, and the federal defence

Page 10558

 1     minister was ordered to make a decision, and the compensation amounted to

 2     70 per cent as stated here.  Furthermore, in the following paragraph, if

 3     I may, the deputy commander of the Chief of Staff of the VJ, in view of

 4     the galloping inflation that we discussed yesterday, asked for salaries

 5     to be brought up to a certain level and that was the spirit in which he

 6     addressed the Presidency of the FRY.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  May we please have an exhibit number

 9     for this document.

10             JUDGE DAVID:  [Microphone not activated]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  This document shall be assigned Exhibit 247,

12     Your Honours.  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Sir, do you know if at any point over the following period

15     salaries were no longer paid to these persons and for what reason?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   When did that occur, and what can you tell us about that?

18        A.   There was a similar situation that occurred, and I hope you don't

19     mind me not being able to remember the exact date, I think it was

20     sometime in August 1994.  Again, because of the non-acceptance of the

21     peace plan by the Contact Group, the Supreme Defence Council decided that

22     the salaries and all payments being made to these categories of persons

23     should be stopped.  This agony went on for a full five months, and I had

24     never in my life faced a crisis as severe as that.

25        Q.   Because of all the contact with the families?

Page 10559

 1        A.   The families kept coming to the ministry and wanting to speak to

 2     whoever was in charge of the salaries.  They thought I was in charge of

 3     all of that.  I apologise for saying it like this, but it was really a

 4     very hard time for me.

 5        Q.   65 ter Defence list 00829D.

 6        A.   I've got that.

 7        Q.   This is a decision of the federal Defence minister,

 8     Pavle Bulatovic, dated the 6th of February, 1995.  What can you tell us

 9     about this, sir?

10        A.   This decision of the federal defence minister, as you pointed out

11     yourself, was adopted on the 6th of February, 1995.

12             In the preamble he refers to his own powers, talks about

13     Article 87 on the Law on the Yugoslav Army and Article 29 on the Law on

14     the Financing on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  This is the

15     relevant ministry that has the power to pass such decisions and to

16     regulate all the salaries and the salary system for professional members

17     of the army.  This decision is on the entitlement and amount of financial

18     assistance for the family, and I have to stress that, of a professional

19     member of the Yugoslav -- or professional members of the Yugoslav Army

20     assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre, meaning of the VRS.

21             May I comment on this decision?  It prescribes the exact amount

22     of financial aid to these families.  Their survival was at stake.  Their

23     livelihood was at stake.  Professional members of the army, professional

24     soldiers or civilian employees of the army working at the 30th Personnel

25     Centre.

Page 10560

 1             If you go to paragraph 2, it talks about personal earnings and

 2     salaries that a professional member of the Yugoslav Army and based on

 3     which the aid may be granted to their families under the Law on the Army,

 4     salary according to rank, according to position under the establishment,

 5     military supplement, and all the other elements that made up a soldier's

 6     salary.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.  We might as well use this as a good example

 8     to clarify something that you said earlier on and that I don't think

 9     tallies in its entirety with what it says.  You said the reference here

10     is to the members of the VRS; although in Article 1, we see mention there

11     of the VJ.  My question is:  Why is the term "VJ" being used here in

12     reference to who you think are members of the VRS, as a matter of fact.

13     Can you please elaborate on that, sir?  Slowly, please.

14        A.   The persons in question are people whose files are in the

15     30th Personnel Centre.  The men who following the withdrawal of the JNA

16     remained in Republika Srpska.  These men were assigned and were awarded

17     posts in the VRS, whereas their families remained in the territory of the

18     FRY.

19        Q.   Why does this document make no reference in its title to the VRS?

20        A.   The reason we don't see any reference there is also the fact that

21     such information needed to be secret.

22        Q.   Thank you very much.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  May this document be received,

24     please.

25             JUDGE DAVID:  Let's accept this document as evidence.  Please,

Page 10561

 1     Registry, give them a number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours this document shall be assigned

 3     Exhibit D248.  Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   What about active-duty officers of the JNA?  What was their

 6     situation vis-a-vis their entitlements to housing and accommodation, and

 7     then later professionals working for the VJ, and who made these

 8     decisions?

 9        A.   I'm sorry, I just didn't understand your question.

10        Q.   Who -- who was in charge of taking decisions regarding the

11     tenancy or housing rights of the officers of the JNA and then later the

12     VJ?

13        A.   This question warrants a somewhat brief answer, which is exactly

14     what I'll try to do.  The regulations governing such issues as housing

15     would have been under the defence ministry, specifically the

16     administration for status-related issues and system issues.  As for any

17     loans that are granted, flats that are awarded and the appropriate

18     records reflecting that, that would have been under the garrison command.

19     This sort of thing would have been down to the garrisons of the VJ.

20        Q.   What does that mean?

21        A.   That means that flats were distributed and all of this was

22     planned within these garrisons.  And it went on like that up until 1995.

23     That was one way.  When the Chief of the General Staff realised how

24     complex the situation was, and this is something that we explained

25     yesterday, we talked about the mishaps, the hardship and the

Page 10562

 1     circumstances surrounding all of this, and in order to leave everybody on

 2     a legal footing in a legal sense, give everyone the same right, he

 3     decided to change tack and deal with these issues in the VJ in a

 4     completely new way.  He, therefore, issued an order in 1995, establishing

 5     the administration for housing issues which was attached to the General

 6     Staff of the VJ.  There was this new system of dealing with housing

 7     issues, and I sort of sensed that that is what you want to hear from me.

 8     This new system was entirely different from the old one.  Perhaps you'd

 9     like me to go on explaining this.

10             The administration for housing issues of the General Staff of the

11     VJ is an independent administration within the General Staff.  It is

12     directly subordinated to the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ.  The

13     Chief of General Staff's idea was to see fewer complaints in the future

14     being voiced by the "down and outs," as I called them yesterday.  And

15     also to make sure that there was more fairness and justice in the way

16     housing issues were resolved.

17             One thing I can tell you, during the three years that we grappled

18     with these issues and tried to resolve them in this way, we managed to

19     dampen the blow, soften the blow, lessen the impact of these problems and

20     also to put the entire thing on a more equal footing legally, giving

21     people fair treatment.

22             What were the main principles behind this, and what were the

23     criteria confirming what I've been telling you?

24        Q.   I don't think we need to go into that right now, sir.  I just

25     wanted you to tell me about the general framework, how it worked before.

Page 10563

 1     You said the Chief of the General Staff.  Who was the chief of the

 2     General Staff at the time when the administration was established?  Part

 3     of the General Staff of the VJ?

 4        A.   General Momcilo Perisic.

 5        Q.   What about members of the VRS who went through the 30th Personnel

 6     Centre pursuant to General President Lilic and exercised their rights,

 7     did they have any access to this new housing system?

 8        A.   Yes, indeed.  That was a right associated with their status in

 9     the army.

10        Q.   Thank you very much.  When did the personnel centres cease to

11     operate?

12        A.   My previous answer I talked about the 40th Personnel Centre,

13     saying that it ceased to operate when I became chief of the Personnel

14     Administration.  According to my knowledge and my records, the 40th

15     Personnel Centre was abolished at a meeting of the Supreme Defence

16     Council.  It has been 20 years, after all.  My memory is not at fresh as

17     it used to be, but I believe this was sometime in late 1995.  The final

18     decision came in 1997 concerning the personnel centre.

19             The abolition of the 30th Personnel Centre was passed by the

20     president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Dr. Kostunica, on the

21     28th of March, 2001.

22        Q.   You went to the General Staff in late December 1995.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, can we please go back

24     to D200 MFI.  This is something that we did with General Simic, the order

25     on the competence of the organisational units of the General Staff, and

Page 10564

 1     then we went through this with General Simic concerning his own sector.

 2     And I think now we have a good witness here to briefly go through this

 3     sector.  Page 19 in the B/C/S.  The English translation that we've got --

 4     it's in e-court by the way.  1D11/0310.

 5        Q.   Do you have that document, sir?

 6        A.   Which number did you say?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters couldn't hear counsel.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I have the Usher's

 9     assistance, please.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   It's towards the very end.  It's a somewhat lengthy document.

12             Have you got that sir, General?

13        A.   Now I heard rules and actually it says "Order."

14        Q.   Yes, that's my mistake.  I'm sorry.  Let's go straight to item 21

15     sector for recruitment for mobilisation and system-related issues.  Have

16     you got that, General?

17        A.   No, not yet.  There's quite a bit to wade through.  What page

18     number did you say, sir.

19        Q.   32.  The legibility's poor, unfortunately.

20        A.   I know the sector.  I'm sure I'll track it down eventually.

21        Q.   You'll find the sector under Article 21.

22        A.   All right.  I've got that, but I can't see a thing, to be honest.

23     I'm, indeed, sorry, Your Honours.  Please go ahead.

24        Q.   This is from 1992.  My question is:  Was this, in fact, the case

25     in 1995?  What about the sector for recruitment, mobilisation, and

Page 10565

 1     system-related issues because that's what it was called at that time.

 2     Was the name kept later on in 1995?

 3        A.   My apologise, and I don't mean to be offensive, but this is an

 4     order on the competencies, dated 1994.  What I've got --

 5        Q.   Yes, yes, you're quite right, sir.  So what was the sector called

 6     at the time you arrived?

 7        A.   The same thing you see here in this document.  The name never

 8     changed.

 9        Q.   Did it have a personnel administration at the time?  The third

10     administration, a legal administration, and a department for IT support.

11        A.   Yes, it did.

12        Q.   Let me just ask you this.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Sorry, Your Honours.  Sorry to interrupt, Counsel.

14             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Thomas.

15             MR. THOMAS:  Just a matter of clarification.  The question was:

16             "Did it have a personnel administration at the time?"

17             That's at line 19, Your Honours, and I'm just not certain what

18     time my learned friend is referring to.  We've got -- if you go up two or

19     three questions, we're talking about 1992, 1995, and the order dated

20     1994.

21             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Yes, yes.  I'm grateful to my

23     learned friend, Mr. Thomas.  I'll be more accurate.

24        Q.   General, when you came to the General Staff, you were at first in

25     the housing administration, and then towards the end of 1995 and then

Page 10566

 1     onwards, whilst you were in the General Staff, did this sector has --

 2     have these parts that I already mentioned, i.e., the personnel

 3     administration, the third administration, the legal administration, and

 4     the IT support sector?

 5        A.   Concerning 1995, 1996, and 1997, my answer is yes.  When I came

 6     at the head of the personnel administration in 1998, it was still called

 7     the sector for recruitment, mobilisation, and system issues.  However, in

 8     early 1999, the housing department was attached to this -- the housing

 9     administration was attached to this sector.  I just wanted to clarify

10     this.  But the name was still the same.

11        Q.   Can you just tell us briefly what were the functions of the

12     personnel administration, in particular with respect to what they say,

13     elaboration of basic principles of personnel policy.  What was this

14     administration doing, actually, and, in fact, with regard to this?

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I think it's on the next page in

16     English, and this is for the benefit of the Bench.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to give you the shortest

18     possible answer because there are lots of tasks and functions involved.

19     So in a nutshell, the personnel administration had the following

20     functions:  It's basic and main function was to provide personnel support

21     of the VJ, and it is part of the General Staff of the VJ.  That meant

22     that the personnel administration was a tactical wielder of the highest

23     order in terms of providing and recruiting personnel.  When I say

24     recruiting personnel, that means recruiting professionals to join the

25     army, organising education system and deciding where students are going

Page 10567

 1     to go, to which academies and schools, then announcing vacancies for

 2     teachers, then for students.  And this is very important.  They were

 3     expected to prepare plans for annual or six-month plans for personnel

 4     training and education.  After people finish academy, it is their duty to

 5     assign them and deploy them to the units and institutions of the VJ.

 6             It was in charge of providing and running an information system

 7     for recruitment, which was called PERCEVIC [phoen].  That's an acronym

 8     which stands for personnel records.  And that would be all.

 9        Q.   What was the legal administration involved in?

10        A.   The legal administration of the General Staff of the VJ is a

11     professional organ that carries out duties within the scope of

12     responsibilities of the Chief of General Staff that refer exclusively or,

13     in general, to the following issues:  Their duty was to harmonise certain

14     enactments, training rules and all other enactments that, under the

15     Article 5 on the Law on the VJ, fall under the jurisdiction of the Chief

16     of General Staff.  They were also responsible for preparing solutions,

17     second-degree solutions, in -- according to the Law on General

18     Administrative Order Proceedings, and these were signed by the General --

19     by the Chief of the General Staff.

20             They also supplied opinions and suggestions regarding proposals

21     and drafts for certain enactments that were within the jurisdiction of

22     the Ministry of Defence and the General Staff that were drafted in this

23     administration in order to elicit certain opinions from other

24     administration regarding certain issues.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, I don't know how

Page 10568

 1     technically it would be best to enter this into evidence.  I think it

 2     would be better if we link it with the existing document, and we should,

 3     on the other hand, maintain the MFI designation, because we haven't

 4     received all the translations yet.

 5             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Thomas.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  That sounds like a sensible proposal, Your Honours.

 7     And in any event, I would defer to the opinion of our Legal Officer, the

 8     Court Legal Officer, on that point.

 9             JUDGE DAVID:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I would then propose for the English

11     translation of this part of the document that exists in B/C/S to be

12     attached to the existing translation and that it maintains number D200

13     MFI, because it hasn't been translated in full yet.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  [Previous translation continues] ... [overlapping

15     speakers]

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   General, we are now going to -- back to the period when you were

18     serving in the General Staff of the VJ and when you were at the head of

19     the personnel administration and when the 30th Personnel Centre was

20     disbanded.  Do you know what were the consequences for the people who had

21     exercised certain rights through the 30th Centre after the centre was

22     disbanded and how they managed to exercise they -- their rights in the

23     aftermath of that?

24        A.   One should bear in mind one fact here, and that is that you have

25     an organisational unit which used to live and then it ceased to live.  To

Page 10569

 1     form a personnel centre, a decision from the highest level of command and

 2     control of Yugoslavia was required.  This decision was taken by the

 3     President, Lilic, as the Commander-in-Chief.  His successor was

 4     Dr. Kostunica.  As president and Commander-in-Chief, he passed a decision

 5     to disband the 30th Personnel Centre.  As I said before, I think that

 6     took place on the 28th of March, 2001.  So this is when the life of the

 7     personnel centre ended.

 8             You asked me what happened next.  Since we are talking about the

 9     Army of Republika Srpska, solutions were sought at the highest political

10     levels of different countries, that is to say the FRY, Republika Srpska,

11     and their respective ministries and General Staffs of -- the Main Staff

12     of the VJ and the VRS and the defence ministry of Yugoslavia.

13        Q.   Were you involved by virtue of your position in that process and

14     do you know what happened next?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I am going to put a document on the screen, and then I'll ask you

17     what happened next.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  So can we please have Defence

19     document 0064D.

20        Q.   It's an agreement of 12th July 2001, relating to the settlement

21     of status-related issues of members of the military forces.

22        A.   I have found it.

23        Q.   I'll ask you to comment on this as soon as we have the document

24     on our screens.

25             MR. LUKIC:  For the record, the documents which I'm calling now

Page 10570

 1     is 65 ter for Defence 00643D.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] General, what can you tell us about this

 3     document?  What do you know about it and what effects it produced?

 4        A.   This is an agreement on the manner of resolving status-related

 5     issues of members of the 30th Personnel Centre and on the financial aid

 6     of the Federal Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

 7     to the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.  Since you mentioned the

 8     effects, the effect was that an order was issued by the president of the

 9     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to abolish the personnel centres.

10             In the preamble of this agreement, it is specified on the basis

11     of which documents this agreement was concluded.  I'm going to say that

12     that was based on the agreement on establishing special parallel

13     relations between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Republika

14     Srpska, concluded on the 5th of March, 2002.  And as I already said, it

15     was done in keeping with the order of the president of the Federal

16     Republic of Yugoslavia on the abolishment of the 30th Personnel Centre.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we please have an exhibit number

18     for this document.

19             JUDGE DAVID:  The document is accepted into evidence.  Please,

20     Registry, give it an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

22     Exhibit D249.  Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   General, who gives approval on behalf of the Federal Republic of

25     Yugoslavia for this kind of agreements?  And do you know who gave

Page 10571

 1     approval for this particular agreement?

 2        A.   The approval was given by the federal minister for defence,

 3     Slobodan Krapovic.  And on behalf of Republika Srpska, it was their

 4     minister of defence, Slobodan Bilic.

 5        Q.   They signed the agreement, but I asked you about the approval.

 6     Do you know anything about that?  What institution?

 7        A.   The federal government and the Government of Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   That's what I wanted to hear.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we have now on the screen 65 ter

10     01026D.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  10 --

12             MR. LUKIC:  1126.

13             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic, I believe it's time to adjourn.  We

14     shall return at 12.30.  We shall be returning at 12.30.  The court

15     adjourns now.  Thank you.

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

18             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic.  Are we ready to continue the

19     examination?

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

21        Q.   General, before the break, I asked you about this agreement, who

22     approved it.

23             Can we please have 65 ter Defense Document 01126D.  It's marked

24     1126D.  It's a short document.  It's a meeting of the federal government

25     held on the 5th of July, 2001.

Page 10572

 1        A.   Thank you.

 2        Q.   Can we please look at page 2 in e-court, which is actually page

 3     20 in the official document of the federal government of the FRY.  I am

 4     particularly interested in item 34.  I'm not going to read it out, but

 5     I'm going to ask you if what is mentioned in item 34, does that refer to

 6     this previous agreement?

 7        A.   Yes, it does.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we please have an exhibit number

10     for this document.

11             JUDGE DAVID:  Let's accept this document into evidence.  Please,

12     Registry, give the exhibit a number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  This document shall be

14     assigned Exhibit D250.  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   General, I asked you a while ago if you were, in any sort of way,

17     involved in these talks and this procedure when these issues were

18     resolved after the closure of the personnel centres.  Do you know if any

19     representatives from abroad or international organisations were privy to

20     these talks, and were there any meetings held with such representatives,

21     and I'm particularly referring to the US.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   What do you know about that?

24        A.   After the conclusion of this agreement and after approval had

25     been given by both governments, that is to say the FRY government and the

Page 10573

 1     Government of Republika Srpska, and once the agreement came into force,

 2     the former US ambassador, I don't know his name, I think it's Montgomery,

 3     asked for a meeting with the minister of defence.  And this meeting was

 4     held, as far as I can recall, at the federation palace as it was called

 5     at the time.  It's now called the Palace of Serbia in New Belgrade.  On

 6     the premises of the Ministry of Defence.

 7             During that meeting -- actually, the main reason for that meeting

 8     was discuss this agreement to a certain extent and to discuss how certain

 9     needs would be funded or how certain financial aid would be provided for

10     Republika Srpska.  I know about that meeting, and we were informed about

11     this by the minister in the form of a written information.

12        Q.   Just a minute, please.  Defence document 00646D.

13        A.   I've got that.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  In e-court, we would like to have

15     page 1 displayed to begin with.

16        Q.   Is this the note from the talk that I asked you about a minute

17     ago?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Could we please go to B/C/S page 2.  The English reference is

20     page 3.

21             There's a single sentence that I'd like to look at, and I'd like

22     to have you comment on it, sir.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, it's paragraph 2 that

24     I'm about to read.  It's the page you have on your screens.

25        Q.    "The ambassador stressed that the situation in Southern Serbia

Page 10574

 1     and in Macedonia showed the need for strong armed forces.  Macedonia does

 2     not have them and will have difficulty overcoming the problems it now

 3     faces."

 4             And now please pay close attention to the following portion:

 5             "As for Croatia, they gave much higher pay to their officers in

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina (which they have now terminated - the amount

 7     ranged up to 300 million dollars).  However, those payments were made

 8     with the full knowledge of representatives of the international

 9     community, so that it is -- so that it is allocated and how much it will

10     be next year."

11             I have a problem here.  Obviously that's a portion of the text

12     missing in the B/C/S.  Nevertheless, I'd like to know about what I've

13     just read out to you, sir.  Were you informed regarding that meeting

14     about what the US ambassador said about the financing and what the

15     international community knew about those salaries?

16        A.   Yes, I knew about that.

17        Q.   Please just allow me to complete my question.  The salaries of

18     the Croatian officers in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you know about that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you know whether at the time when this agreement was reached

21     the international community had any objections to the way the agreement

22     was being implemented at the time?

23        A.   You mean between the FRY and --

24        Q.   Yes, yes.

25        A.   Yes, but there were no objections, none at all.  There were no

Page 10575

 1     objections, and no one stepped in to say anything.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  May this document be received,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE DAVID:  Document accepted into evidence.  Please, Registry,

 6     give an exhibit number to it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 8     Exhibit D251.  Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Another document for us to look at.  As a matter of fact, this

11     one was part of a large document from the OTP's 65 ter list.  We marked

12     it as 1D10-0610.  I'll repeat.  I'll repeat.  1D10-0610.  For the benefit

13     of my friends from the OTP this is page 4 of the 65 ter document from the

14     Prosecution 1285.

15        A.   I can't seem to be able to find this one.  Could the Usher please

16     give me a hand.  I can't see it on my screen.

17        Q.   We'll just wait half a second.  No problem at all.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  There's a chance the witness doesn't

19     have it.  Perhaps 1285.  That number needs checking.

20        Q.   It's an order by President Mirko Sarovic, President of Republika

21     Srpska.

22        A.   It's all right.  I've got it now.  Thank you, Usher.  Thank you.

23        Q.   It's an order by the president of Republika Srpska,

24     Mirko Sarovic, dated the 16th of October, 2001.  I'll just read paragraph

25     1 of this order:

Page 10576

 1             "Transfer members of the VRS who are entered in the records and

 2     have resolved matters of status in the 30th Personnel Centre of the VJ to

 3     the records of the VRS and appoint them to the corresponding positions

 4     and establishment posts in accordance with the requirements of the

 5     service from the date 1st of January 2002."

 6             Sir, is this document familiar and what exactly does it tell us?

 7        A.   Yes, this document is familiar, and what it tell us is this:

 8     This document is a consequence of an order by the president of the FRY on

 9     the abolishment of the 30th Personnel Centre.  One of the paragraphs

10     states that all members of the VRS, whose records are still being kept by

11     the 30th Personnel Centre, should now have their files removed, at the

12     latest 30 days after the day the agreement was signed.  In keeping with

13     the agreement, as it was, the President of Republika Srpska adopted this

14     order on how to proceed in terms of regulating the status of those

15     persons whose records were kept by the 30th Personnel Centre.

16        Q.   If you look at this order, how were these persons handled?  How

17     were they defined?  They were members of which army precisely, sir?  What

18     does the document seem to suggest?

19        A.   If you look at paragraph 1 of this order, it follows quite

20     unambiguously.  If you look at the very first sentence that these men are

21     members of the VRS.

22        Q.   Thank you very much.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  May this document be received as

24     well.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE DAVID:  Let's accept this document into evidence.  Please,

Page 10577

 1     Registry, give it an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 3     Exhibit D252.  Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I'd like to move on to an altogether different topic.  Actually,

 6     the legal provisions of both laws, the law on the VJ and the Law on the

 7     VRS.  I've those two ready.  I chose not to include the Law on the SVK

 8     because that has been exhibited already.  Can we please have the

 9     following on our screens, Exhibit P197, the Law on the VJ.

10             General, I believe you've got that, and I believe you're familiar

11     with many provisions ever this law, off by heart as it were.

12        A.   I've got that.

13        Q.   What kind of statuses are there under the law within the service

14     in the VJ.  Without going to the law itself, could you please explain,

15     sir, in very general terms.

16        A.   The following statuses are envisaged by the Law on the VJ:

17     Persons appointed to a duty, persons doing an Stadj [as interpreted] with

18     the army, persons who are available, persons who are being trained, and

19     persons on sick leave and receiving treatment, medical treatment.  Also,

20     persons who were dismissed from their duty post.

21        Q.   Are these same solutions envisioned by the Law on the VRS?

22        A.   Yes, that's right.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Just a minute, please.  There's

24     something we need to check.

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 10578

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  That's fine.  I do apologise to the

 2     interpreters.  We shall be studying some legal provisions now, and I wish

 3     to be very specific about this.  I will be invoking legal provisions.

 4     Page 60, line 1, the witness said "status within the service."  And I

 5     think that's what the law states as well.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, I don't understand where

 7     that takes us in relation to the -- if I could just pause the transcript

 8     for a moment.

 9             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I said I still don't

11     understand what is currently recorded as the answer on line -- on page

12     60, line 1.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  We're dealing with some terms here

14     that need to be very specific.  I asked the witness about the statuses

15     within the service.  I didn't ask the witness to actually explain what it

16     means, status within the service.  I'm not sure if the interpreters are

17     managing.  It's quite complicated the terminology is exceedingly

18     complicated.

19             MR. THOMAS:  That clarifies that matter, Your Honours, but I

20     wonder if I could have the assistance of my learned friend on what should

21     be on page 60, line 2.

22             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Sir, Witness, what statuses in service or within the service does

25     the Law on the VJ envisage?  Could you please explain.

Page 10579

 1        A.   The Law on the VJ regulates the statuses as follows:  Appointment

 2     to duty, military trainees, sick leave and medical treatment, training

 3     and education, and dismissed from duty.  I may have missed that one the

 4     first time around.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can we please have Article 52 of the law displayed on

 6     our screens now.  In the B/C/S this is page 5.

 7             Just a minute, please, sir.

 8        A.   Which article did you have in mind, sir?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  It's page 13 in the English,

10     Your Honours.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which article for me?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Fifty-two.  I will not be reading this article out loud, but I do

14     wish a concept or two clarified.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, I wanted to have this

16     displayed also for the benefit of the interpreters to see what the

17     translation appears to be here.

18             Paragraph 6 talks about the statuses in the service of

19     professional officers and non-commissioned officers, or service status.

20     The English that we have in this document is "service status."  Another

21     important thing that needs clarifying.

22        Q.   Witness, sir, General Nikolic, what exactly is "service status"?

23     What is "service status" as opposed to "service situation" or

24     "condition"?

25             We seem to be facing a certain amount of confusion with the

Page 10580

 1     English again.  I'm not blaming the interpreters at all.

 2             General, could you please explain in your own words and then

 3     we'll move on to the actual legal provisions.

 4        A.   The situation in service, briefly, means that each person, member

 5     of the army, the VJ in this case, must be in one of these situations or

 6     conditions in the service in order to be able to exercise their

 7     entitlements under the rules of service that apply to that army.

 8             By way of an example, what exactly does this mean, this service

 9     situation?  Appointment to duty, for example, or assignment to duty.

10     Every professional officer or NCO is assigned to a unit or an

11     institution, appointed to a particular duty or an establishment post

12     which is envisaged for that establishment post under the establishment

13     and envisaged for that rank.

14             What elements does their salary depend on?  We heard that that

15     depends on these persons being assigned to a particular position.

16        Q.   Under the law, what are the relations, the service relations,

17     that exist?

18        A.   With regard to the relations in the service, according to the

19     law, is the relation between a subordinate and a superior.  A superior is

20     an individual who is in command of a unit or an institution in which his

21     subordinate is deployed or assigned.  So he's in command of a unit or an

22     institution where certain individual is assigned to and is subordinated

23     to him.  That would be the briefest possible explanation without

24     resorting to the law.

25        Q.   Is it possible for any individual in the service to be in two

Page 10581

 1     chains of command at the same time?

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, there is not a single country in the world, as far as

 3     I know, and I read a lot, I mean not a single army in the world can have

 4     an individual who will have two superiors.  Each individual is

 5     exclusively in a single chain of command, and he can only have one single

 6     superior.  This provides to secure the principles of the unity of command

 7     and subordination, subordination.

 8        Q.   Let us look together at Article 8, paragraph 2 of the Law on the

 9     Yugoslav Army.  That's page 2 in B/C/S and page 3 in English.

10        A.   Yes, I can see it.

11        Q.   Let's just wait for it to appear on our screens.  Article 8

12     reads:

13             "Service in the army shall mean the carrying out of military and

14     other duties in the --"

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The translation in English

16     does not correspond with what Mr. Lukic is reading.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   When we discussed this article, we discussed an example, and we

19     would like to use your example to explain to the Trial Chamber the

20     meaning of this.  You were a colonel in the Army of Yugoslavia while you

21     worked in the Ministry of Defence.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   While you were in the ministry, were you in the Army of

24     Yugoslavia or were you outside of the Army of Yugoslavia, pursuant to

25     this particular article of the law?

Page 10582

 1        A.   Paragraph 2 of Article 8 is extremely precise in its definitions.

 2     You asked me about my case.  In 1984, I left the chain of command of the

 3     VJ, and I entered the ministry, which was called at the time SSNO.  From

 4     that moment on until my return, my direct superior was Milos Kosic,

 5     Zunic, and the minister of defence.  All the orders I carried out in this

 6     ministry, including all --

 7        Q.   Just slowly.  We will take it step-by-step.  Did you exercise

 8     your rights as if you were a member of the VJ?

 9        A.   Yes, entirely.

10        Q.   In the period while you worked in the Ministry of Defence, and

11     you mentioned who your superiors were, who was the only one to appoint

12     you, to dismiss you, or to transfer you?

13        A.   Exclusively my superior in line with the rules about the

14     competencies of the Ministry of Defence.

15        Q.   When you say "my superior," you mean the minister of defence.

16        A.   Yes, within the chain of command of the minister of defence.

17        Q.   According to the Law on the Army, was it possible for you to

18     rejoin the VJ without the consent of the minister of defence or your

19     direct superior within the chain of the Ministry of Defence?

20        A.   When I was supposed to be assigned to the General Staff of the

21     VJ, the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ had to ask approval from the

22     minister of defence for me to be transferred to the General Staff.  Once

23     this approval was given, only then could I be assigned to the VJ and

24     reinstated into the chain of command of the VJ.

25             By the way, if you may add, all my grades while I worked for the

Page 10583

 1     ministry, which is one of the elements for resolving service-related

 2     issues in terms of promotion, advancement, additional training,

 3     et cetera, depended exclusively on my superiors from the ministry of

 4     defence while I worked there.  And it was minister of defence himself who

 5     wrote grades for me and my performance.

 6        Q.   Has there been any suspicion of you having committed some

 7     disciplinary infringement while you were in the Ministry of Defence?

 8     Whose duty was it to institute disciplinary proceedings against you?

 9        A.   According to the Law on the Yugoslav Army, only minister of

10     defence could have done that.

11        Q.   Can you tell us specifically which article of the law on the VJ

12     provides for the jurisdiction for disciplinary procedures against people

13     who are outside the VJ?

14        A.   I can't give you a precise answer, but we can look from

15     Article 160 onwards.

16        Q.   I know that you're already tired, and if I help you, I hope that

17     the Prosecutor won't mind.

18             Can you please look at Article 158, and could you comment on it.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  And for the benefit of the

20     Trial Chamber, it's page 14 in B/C/S and page 39 in English.

21     Article 158.

22        Q.   It's linked to Article 152, but there is no need for us to look

23     at it.  It contains some general provisions.  However, I'm interested in

24     this particular article.  Can you tell us what it says?

25        A.   Article 158 of the Law on the Yugoslav Army says that the

Page 10584

 1     authorisation from Article 152 that has the chief of -- the Chief of

 2     General Staff of the VJ and which pertain to resolving service relations

 3     of professional soldiers and civilians assigned to the federal ministry

 4     of defence and units and institutions subordinated to it shall be carried

 5     out by the federal minister of defence only or a commander authorised by

 6     him.

 7             If I may clarify this further.  In Article 152, paragraph 1 --

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we please go back one page so

 9     that the Trial Chamber can follow.  We'll have to wait for a moment.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11        A.   Article 152 stipulates the authorities and powers of the Chief of

12     General Staff.  So I'm reading -- or, rather, interpreting item 2, 4, 6,

13     and 7.  Number 2 reads:

14             "Promote professional and reserve non-commissioned officers and

15     officers up to and including the rank of colonel."

16             What does that mean?  That means that all members of the VJ who

17     are serving with the Ministry of Defence up to and including to the rank

18     of colonel are subject to promotion by the federal minister of defence.

19             Item 4, Chief of General Staff:

20             "Appoints and transfer professional non-commissioned and

21     commissioned officers up to and including the rank of colonel and issue

22     decision on their service."

23             Which means that it has been explicitly provided that all the

24     situations in the service shall be decided by the minister of defence up

25     and including the rank of colonel.

Page 10585

 1             Next item 6, which refers to -- which is being referred to in

 2     Article 180 -- 58:

 3             "Decide on the termination of service in the army of professional

 4     non-commissioned and commissioned officers up to and including the rank

 5     of colonel."

 6             And Article 153 pertains to civilian employees of the army.

 7        Q.   So to recap, all these situations have been very precisely listed

 8     in Article 152 and to which Article 158 refers, all these authorities are

 9     given to the minister of defence or, rather, delegated to the minister of

10     defence instead of to the Chief of General Staff.

11             I asked you about disciplinary procedures, and, in that respect,

12     can we look at Article 181.  Yes.  181.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]   I'm grateful to the Registry for

14     being quicker to find their bearings than I can.  So let us wait for the

15     English version to appear.

16        Q.   So towards the bottom of the page you can see it.  General, who

17     is authorised to institute disciplinary proceedings against employees of

18     the Ministry of Defence?

19        A.   Here we have the mention of the --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer

21     slowly, if possible.  Thank you very much.

22             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

23             JUDGE DAVID:  No interpretation of the -- please.  I don't see

24     interpretation for the last sentence of the witness.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10586

 1        Q.   General, the interpreters are a little bit tired, and you are

 2     getting faster and faster.  Can you please repeat your whole answer to my

 3     question:  Who was authorised to institute disciplinary proceedings for

 4     the employees of the Ministry of Defence as provided by in article.

 5        A.   That was within authorisation of the Ministry of Defence.

 6        Q.   While you were in the Ministry of Defence, if God forbid you

 7     committed a disciplinary breach, was anyone else allowed to institute

 8     these proceedings?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Can you tell me where these organs were conducted, these

11     proceedings were?  Were they part of the Ministry of Defence?

12        A.   In order to -- to bring the perpetrator of a disciplinary breach

13     before the military disciplinary court, it is up to the minister of

14     defence and commanding officers of the organisational units that we

15     mentioned yesterday.

16        Q.   General, what we have read, these provisions in the law, were

17     these solutions also a form of adapting the provisions that pertain to

18     VRS and SVK officers when we talked about the personnel centres?

19        A.   No.  Maybe I didn't understand your question correctly.  Whether

20     they were adjusted or adapted, yes, because there were military

21     disciplinary courts.

22        Q.   General, we are not going to go into the issue of military

23     disciplinary courts.  Let me repeat my question.

24             We have went through a number of articles that pertain to the

25     mode of regulating certain issues for the persons outside of the VJ.

Page 10587

 1     Whether the solutions based on which an order was issued to establish the

 2     personnel centres, have these provisions in mind or were they based on

 3     these provisions?  Why were these people part of the VJ or were they not

 4     part of the VJ?

 5             Let us just for the record say that witness replied by saying,

 6     "Yes."  Page 69, line 9, the witness said, "Yes."

 7        A.   I'll repeat if that's what it takes.

 8        Q.   No.  No need.

 9        A.   If my understanding of the question is correct, you said, Why.

10     Over the course of my evidence, I explained why.  It was for the person

11     in question to remove any obstacles to resolving his own status and

12     status-related issues within the VJ.  What does that mean?  If the

13     competent authorities took certain decisions, the procedure was in place

14     and this person was now facing a disciplinary court, thus presenting an

15     obstacle to that person's promotion or appointment to a post higher up.

16        Q.   I'm sorry, but that was not at all my question.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Can the witness please be

18     asked to, before we proceed, to face the make phones so that we can

19     actually hear him.  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Carefully, General, please, brief answers.  I know you're

23     probably very tired.  About what the officers of the VRS and the SVK?

24     Were they part of the VJ's chain of command from the moment they joined

25     those other armies on?

Page 10588

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   In order to have some of their rights and entitlements

 3     recognised, rights -- the same rights as if they were members of the VJ,

 4     was their status likened or compared to those who were outside the VJ yet

 5     still enjoyed certain entitlements under the law?  That was my question.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  Right.  I do apologise.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, I'd simply request my learned friend

 8     not lead on this topic, please.

 9             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Just a minute, please.  Let me have

11     a look.  I'm receiving suggestions that there is a problem with the

12     interpretation and also there is an objection by Mr. Thomas.  I think the

13     best idea might be for me to rephrase my question.

14        Q.   A minute ago I asked you a question about whether those men were

15     in the chain of command of the VJ.  You said no; right?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Can you please listen to my question:  Under the law on the VJ,

18     there were certain persons who were not within the framework of the VJ.

19     Were the relations -- their service relations regulated as if they were

20     members of the VJ?

21             MR. THOMAS:  Objection, Your Honour, leading.

22             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Were there certain persons -- listen to the question, General.

25     There were certain persons who were outside the VJ, not members.  Were

Page 10589

 1     their service relations regulated in the same way as if they were members

 2     of the VJ or not?

 3             MR. THOMAS:  Objection, Your Honour, leading.  Same objection,

 4     sir.

 5             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I don't think this is leading.  I

 7     gave the a witness choice between two possible answers.  I said, Yes or

 8     no.  I'm not leading at all, Your Honours.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Thomas.

11             MR. THOMAS:  I maintain that the question is leading,

12     Your Honours, because he is providing all the signals to the witness as

13     to how he should approach the answer to the question, how he should liken

14     these individuals to others, for example.

15             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, I think we'll just

17     keep confusing the witness.  It's best for me to rephrase the question.

18     I really think my question is not leading, but I'm afraid this might lead

19     to further confusion on the part of the witness, which is certainly

20     something that I'm trying to avoid.  Just a minute, please.

21        Q.   Under the Law on the VJ, were there certain categories of persons

22     who were outside the army, not members of the army, and yet they had --

23     and yet they had the same entitlements as though they were actual members

24     of the army?  Yes or no?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10590

 1        Q.   Just a minute, please.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Just for the record, Your Honours, that's another

 3     leading question.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I think not, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honour, we have read that

 7     article of the law.  We went through it with the witness.  We all know

 8     what this is about.  I don't think this is in any way leading.

 9             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Thomas has expressed that you are giving

10     certain tips to answer the question in the way you expect.  Is there a

11     way to formulate the question in the most simple and direct manner

12     without anticipating or indicating any answer to the witness?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I understand the witness's

14     allegations in the light of the witness not being offered a choice in

15     terms of answering.  I think my questioning was proper.  I actually

16     offered two choices and the witness gave an answer.

17        Q.   Witness, sir, during the previous session we talked about the

18     personnel centres and all that.  You mentioned the word "assimilation" or

19     "harmonisation."  What exactly did that word refer to, harmonisation of

20     laws?

21             I hope that this is a proper way to put the question.

22        A.   Assimilation and harmonisation means that entitlements owing to

23     someone's status can be exercised.  This Article 53, paragraph 2, of the

24     Law on the VJ.  This is entirely unambiguous as it states the following:

25             "Professional officer or NCO assigned outside the army has all

Page 10591

 1     the entitlements and obligations incumbent upon a professional officer or

 2     NCO assigned to a post within the army, unless otherwise stipulated by

 3     this law."

 4             I'm not sure if that answers your question in a satisfactory way.

 5        Q.   Indeed, General.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have the B/C/S page 5

 7     and the English page 13 pulled up on our screens so we can look at what

 8     you've just told us in your explanation.  Article 53, paragraph 2 of the

 9     Law on the VJ.

10        Q.   We talked about harmonisation or assimilation.  Can you tell the

11     Court what you mean exactly?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  My apology to the interpreters.  I

13     have been receiving suggestions, and I would propose a different word for

14     "podobrivenje [phoen]" in relation to what was actually written in

15     paragraph 5, line 16.  I think the term "recognising" was used

16     previously.

17             Mr. Guy-Smith is telling me that the interpretation is okay and

18     that it works in English.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This means that this person has all

20     of the entitlements.  This person, whose rights are recognised, any

21     entitlements of a professional officer or NCO.  The right to a salary,

22     the right to accommodation, the right to various supplements and benefits

23     and any other right and entitlements that this person enjoys under the

24     law on the VJ.

25             As for the obligations, this person must display the conduct of a

Page 10592

 1     professional officer.  As an officer, this doesn't mean that he can do

 2     anything else.  He must, at all times, act in the spirit of a

 3     [indiscernible] as a professional military officer, in the briefest of

 4     terms.

 5        Q.   A while ago we talked about service situations.  Let me ask you

 6     about something else.  We were looking at the provisions of the law on

 7     the VJ.  Do you perhaps know whether these issues and terms were

 8     regulated in a different way in the Law on the VRS and the Law on the

 9     SVK?

10        A.   They are entirely identical.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we have Defence document 65 ter

12     00389D?

13        Q.   General, can you find a hardcopy of this document?  It's marked

14     389D.  It's an order on the appointment of Manojlo Milovanovic.

15        A.   I can't find it.  I've found it with the assistance of the Usher.

16        Q.   This is a decree of Radovan Karadzic, president of Republika

17     Srpska, of 16th December 1992.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   On appointment as per peacetime and wartime establishment of

20     Manojlo Milovanovic, can you tell me what is this decision based on?

21        A.   One can see from the preamble what the basis was to issue such a

22     decision by Radovan Karadzic, president of Republika Srpska, which reads

23     decree number this and that, the date, and then it reads:

24             "Pursuant to Articles 11 and 369 of the Law on the Army of

25     Republika Srpska (Official Gazette of Republika Srpska, number 7/92)."

Page 10593

 1        Q.   According to this document, Manojlo Milovanovic was member of

 2     which army?

 3        A.   Since he has been promoted by the person envisaged in the Law of

 4     Republika Srpska, I would say that he was a member of the Army of

 5     Republika Srpska.

 6        Q.   Is it possible for one and the same individual to be in two

 7     armies concurrently?

 8        A.   May I make a joke about this?

 9        Q.   Please don't.

10        A.   It is not possible for any single individual to be in two armies

11     at the same time.

12        Q.   There is mention here of some numbers on the right side.  I know

13     this was produced by the army, but, generally speaking, can you tell us

14     once an individual receives this kind of decision on appointment, what do

15     these figures signify?  Could he occupy a number of establishment posts

16     or could we have multiple persons occupying the same post?

17        A.   Each order on appointment contains it's basic elements which are

18     listed as kind of code numbers on the right-hand side, and that is

19     whether he or she's being appointed or is he going to act as a stand-in;

20     to which unit is he being appointed to; his rank per establishment; next

21     his position group in order to give him an entitlement to certain salary,

22     a military speciality, which is a prerequisite for appointing someone to

23     a certain post; current duty, rank establishment and position group; and

24     finally the duty station.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we please have an exhibit number

Page 10594

 1     for this document.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry.

 3             JUDGE DAVID:  Please accept -- sorry.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, the general has just referred to the

 5     current post and current garrison from which General Milovanovic is being

 6     transferred in this particular order, but we can't see that on our

 7     screen, and I'm just wondering if Mr. Registrar or Mr. Usher could please

 8     scroll down so that we can see the garrison and the location, please.

 9             JUDGE DAVID:  Registrar.

10             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I think that we can see now the

13     general has read.  I would suggest that this document be admitted into

14     evidence.

15             JUDGE DAVID:  Let's accept the document into evidence.  Please,

16     Registry, let's give it an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document had been assigned

18     Exhibit D253.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE DAVID:  Thanks.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I had some objections to the record,

21     but let's leave it until later.

22             Can we now look at Defence document 65 ter 00275D.

23        Q.   General, it's 275.  It's an order issued by the commander of the

24     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska on the 27th of August, 1995.

25        A.   Yes, I've found it.

Page 10595

 1        Q.   Where -- whereby Novica Simic is being assigned as stand-in.

 2             General, based on this document, can you tell us the member of

 3     which army was General Novica Simic at the time when this document was

 4     produced, that is to say in August 1995?

 5        A.   One can deduce that from the language and the reference to a

 6     specific article which is 156 of the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska,

 7     Official Gazette of Republika Srpska number 7/92, which means that he was

 8     a member of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   I have a question with relation to paragraph 4, with which reads:

10             "At present, according to the MF," which stands for peacetime

11     establishment, "commander of the corps of the land army of the

12     30th Personnel Centre of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, FCHE [as

13     interpreted] which is an establishment rank, Major General PG 07, as of

14     16th of August, 1991, Belgrade Garrison."

15             General, do you know whether in 1991 the 30th Personnel Centre of

16     the General Staff of the GA [as interpreted] existed?  Just say, Yes or

17     No.

18        A.   I'm not receiving any translation.

19        Q.   It says here that General Simic at the time was commander of the

20     corps of the land army of the 30th Personnel Centre of the General Staff

21     of the Yugoslav Army, as of the 16th of August 1991.  I'm asking you was

22     the 30th Personnel Centre in existence on the 16th of August, 1991.

23        A.   No.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Mr. Guy-Smith is suggesting that we

25     be very precise.  We are talking about General Novica Simic.  When I said

Page 10596

 1     General Simic, I wasn't referring to the witness, General Simic, who was

 2     here last week.

 3             Could I please have an exhibit number for this document.

 4             JUDGE DAVID:  Let's accept the document into evidence.  Please,

 5     Registry, assign an exhibit number to it.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be

 7     assigned Exhibit D254.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE DAVID:  Thanks.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Let us now take a look at document 65 ter Defence 00192D.  So

11     this document is marked 192D.

12        A.   00192?  I have found it.

13        Q.   It's a decision of the commander of the Serbian Army of Krajina

14     of the 27th of September, 1993, whereby Milan Celeketic is appointed as a

15     stand-in in the Western Slavonija Corps.

16             My first question is based on this document:  At the time when

17     this document was passed, the member of which army was Milan Celeketic?

18        A.   There is no doubt that on the basis of this document, he was an

19     officer of the Army of the Serbian Krajina.  And this is additionally

20     confirmed by the foundation for issuing this kind of decision, which is

21     Article 54 of the Law on the Army of Serbian Krajina.

22        Q.   You see -- you said that there's reference to certain articles of

23     the Law on the Army of the Serbian Krajina, but a little bit below it

24     says that temporarily assigned by the order of the chief of personnel

25     administration under Article 271 on the Law on Service in the Armed

Page 10597

 1     Forces.  We see that this document is dated 27th September 1993.  Was

 2     that a standard format for the officers who are being dispatched

 3     before -- dispatched to the VRS and the SVK before the personnel centres

 4     had been established?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can this document please be given an exhibit number.

 7             JUDGE DAVID:  Let's accept this document into evidence.  Please,

 8     Registry, assign an exhibit number to it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the document -- this document shall

10     be assigned Exhibit D255.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DAVID:  Thanks.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  There's another document that I

13     would like to look together with the witness.  It's 65 ter 00178D.  It's

14     a decree issued by the President of Republika Srpska.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have this document.  It's

16     still says Celeketic.

17        Q.   No, there should be exceptional promotion for Novica Simic.

18        A.   Excuse me, which number?

19        Q.   178.

20        A.   I'm sorry.  Now I have it.

21        Q.   So we have a decree issued by the President of Republika Srpska

22     of the 26th of July, 1993, on exceptional promotion of Major General

23     Novica Simic.  What is the foundation for this decision, General?

24        A.   The foundation for adopting this decision were Articles 36, 40,

25     and 369 of the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska.

Page 10598

 1        Q.   General Novica Simic, at the time when this decision was taken,

 2     was a member of which army?

 3        A.   One can deduce from the document that he was an officer in the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we please have an exhibit number

 6     for this document?

 7             JUDGE DAVID:  Let's accept the document as in evidence, and

 8     please, Registry, assign a number to it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

10     Exhibit D256.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DAVID:  Thanks.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, I don't have too many

13     documents left, but I would suggest that we adjourn for the day.  I will

14     take some time for chief -- examination-in-chief on Monday, and then I

15     will hand over the witness to the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you very much.

17             General.  General, you are still expected to continue to testify

18     on Monday.  Until then, we shall adjourn, and please let me remind you

19     that you are still bound by the oath and do not interact, especially with

20     the lawyers of Mr. Perisic.  No communication is --

21             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

22             JUDGE DAVID:  We are now ready to adjourn and to continue our

23     sittings on Monday, the 8th March, in the same courtroom, at 9.00 a.m.

24     Have, all of you, a nice weekend.

25             Court adjourned.

Page 10599

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day

 3                           of March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.