Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10600

 1                           Monday, 8 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus

12     Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Could we have the appearances for the day starting with the

15     Prosecution.

16             MR. THOMAS:  Good morning, Your Honours, General Nikolic,

17     everybody in and around the courtroom.  Carmela Javier, Barney Thomas,

18     and Dan Saxon for the Prosecution.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             And for the Defence.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

22     morning to all the parties to the proceedings in the courtroom and around

23     it.  I would also like to congratulate all the women in the courtroom and

24     around the courtroom because of the International Women's Day.

25             Mr. Perisic will be represented by Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith,

Page 10601

 1     Boris Zorko, and Tina Drolec.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic and particularly

 3     for noting the day.

 4             And good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to remind you that you are still bound by the

 7     declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

 8     truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11                           WITNESS:  STAMENKO NIKOLIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   On Friday we left off when we looked at a number of documents.

17     You remember that you analysed some of them.  We will deal with some more

18     documents in the course of this morning and then I will complete my

19     examination-in-chief.  But let me go back to something that you said,

20     something that you testified.  If you recall, we looked at P1872.  You

21     don't have to consult your folder.  It's the table that was submitted to

22     the Supreme Defence Council on the strength with two categories of people

23     who were in the Republika Srpska army who were already there and those

24     who was seconded there.  Do you recall that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10602

 1        Q.   Well, the second category, those who were sent to the SVK and

 2     VRS, where were they sent from?

 3        A.   I apologise, but my screen is not working.  But I can give you my

 4     answer.

 5             As you have said yourself, the second category of persons

 6     comprised persons who were sent from the territory of the

 7     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and were no longer part of the

 8     Yugoslav Army chain of command but became part of the chain of command of

 9     the Republika Srpska army and the Serbian Krajina army, the SVK.

10        Q.   In this chain of command of the VRS and the SVK, who assigned

11     them to their posts in the establishment?

12        A.   The assignment and the appointment and all the other issues

13     pertaining to their status in the service was regulated by their

14     superiors, superior officers, in line with their jurisdiction and powers

15     and in line with the laws of the VRS and the SVK.

16        Q.   General, do you know whether the Yugoslav Army, the officers from

17     the Yugoslav Army, have -- did they have any influence on their

18     appointments in the two armies, the VRS, the SVK?

19        A.   Absolutely not.

20        Q.   And was it important for the Yugoslav Army or for the authorities

21     of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia that paid the salaries of those

22     persons to know what posts these people had, what rank, and any other

23     categories that are relevant?

24        A.   Could you please repeat your question.  I didn't hear you.

25        Q.   Was it important for the Yugoslav Army and for other authorities

Page 10603

 1     of the FRY to know what posts, what ranks, what functions these people

 2     held?

 3        A.   Yes.  And I can give you additional explanations in this regard.

 4     This was very important for the following reason.  As I have already

 5     noted, the salaries of these people were determined on the basis of their

 6     rank, post, the military bonus, their length of service, and so on.  Any

 7     changes in their appointment, for instance, if they were no longer

 8     company commanders but became battalion commanders or if they were

 9     promoted to a higher rank, it affected their salary, their overall

10     remuneration.  And for this reason it was necessary to have this so that

11     they could, in line with the regulations in force at the time, exercise

12     all their rights pertaining to their status.

13        Q.   In line with whose regulations, what country?

14        A.   The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like us to look at

16     Prosecution Exhibit P1523, page 2.  [In English] 1523.

17     [Interpretation] Perhaps we could look at page 1 first.

18             I think you have this document in front of you.

19        A.   Could you please just give me the number.

20        Q.   P1523.  I think it's an extract from another lengthy Prosecution

21     exhibit.  It's an order from the chief of the personnel administration of

22     the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army dated the 15th of February, 1994,

23     affecting a large number of people.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at page 2 in the

25     B/C/S, and I believe it's also page 2 in the English version,

Page 10604

 1     Bogdan Sladojevic, yes, that's correct, and Milan Celeketic.  Yes, we

 2     have it in the English version.  It says that it's actually the 33rd page

 3     of this large comprehensive document.

 4        Q.   Have you found it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So please look at page 2 where Sladojevic and Celeketic are

 7     mentioned.  I think it's a good idea to look at this page because we have

 8     some typical information listed here?

 9        A.   Yes, I can see it.

10        Q.   General, so pursuant to an order of the chief of the personnel

11     administration, as we have seen on the previous page, let me read this

12     out and you can tell me whether this is correct.

13             It is stated that Bogdan Sladojevic is in fact appointed to the

14     General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, the 40th Personnel Centre,

15     11th Corps; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The first question is:  Do you know whether the 11th Corps

18     actually existed in the Yugoslav Army at that time?

19        A.   From 1970 until the end of my military career in the

20     Yugoslav Army, the 11th Corps was never part of the Yugoslav Army.

21        Q.   To the right we have the date, the 10th of November, 1993.  Do

22     you see that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   What does this date signify; do you know that?

25        A.   This is a date code.  This was the date when the president of the

Page 10605

 1     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Lilic, issued his order regulating

 2     certain issues that pertained to those categories of persons.  And it's

 3     the order of the 10th of November, 1993.

 4        Q.   We can see the same date for the other person here on this page,

 5     that's Milan Celeketic, here where it says "date," the 10th of November?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Very well.  The Belgrade garrison is mentioned here.  Perhaps we

 8     could scroll down a little bit so that we can compare.  We can see here

 9     for Milan Celeketic, it's similar to what it says above for Sladojevic.

10     He is assigned to the Yugoslav Army General Staff to the

11     18th Corps of the 40th Personnel Centre.  I have the same question for

12     you:  Did the 18th Corps exist in the Yugoslav Army; do you know that?

13        A.   Never.

14        Q.   Let me ask you one more question.  The Belgrade garrison is

15     mentioned as regards to both of these people, and we have two different

16     codes, 683 and 669; do you see that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you know by any chance what is the meaning of those codes;

19     what do those figures or numbers represent?

20        A.   That's not the Belgrade garrison.  It's the place where the

21     corps command is located.  683, that's for the 11th Corps; and for the

22     18th Corps, we can see again that it says Belgrade garrison, but the code

23     now is 669.  These are in fact locations where the corps command -- corps

24     commands were located.

25        Q.   In what army?

Page 10606

 1        A.   In the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, because this is

 2     the 40th Personnel Centre.  I can add --

 3        Q.   Let me just ask you one more question.  For Sladojevic it says

 4     under the peacetime establishment he taught tactics in the school -- in

 5     the Petar Drapsin School.  We have some abbreviations here.  You are

 6     probably better placed to understand them.  And from the

 7     21st of February, 1993, the Banja Luka garrison.  That's what it says.

 8             Now, my question is whether you know at the time where this

 9     decision was taken, the 10th of November, 1993, do you know if Sladojevic

10     at that time was already in the Serbian Army of Krajina at the post of

11     the commander of the 11th Corps; do you know that by any chance?

12        A.   To my knowledge, he was transferred to the Serbian Krajina army

13     even before this date.  And in my opinion this date - the

14     10th of November, 1993, and you can see that in the code that you

15     mentioned a little while ago, 101193 - and what this means is that the

16     chief of the personnel administration has to and is duty-bound to bring

17     previous orders in line with the order of the president of the FRY of the

18     10th of November, 1993.

19             And in my opinion, those persons had been seconded or transferred

20     there before, but under the law on the service in the armed forces

21     invoking Article 271 or in some orders 284, indicates that people were

22     transferred even before this date.

23        Q.   Just a moment, please.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a correction for the transcript.

25     At page 6, lines 23/24, the witness said in the Serbian Krajina army,

Page 10607

 1     because it says the 40th Personnel Centre.  Probably he meant because

 2     that's what is written there.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I don't understand you, Mr. Lukic.  That's

 4     what he said, read it at lines 23.  In the Army of Republic of

 5     Serbian Krajina, because this is the 40th Personnel Centre.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  No, because this is the 40th Personnel Centre -- in

 7     first draft, and now it's better because it says -- only a small

 8     correction because he read it in the document.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   Did you want to add something regarding this document, because I

12     have dealt with it.  I don't have to explore it any longer.  Can we

13     please now look at 65 ter document, it's a Defence document, 00417D.

14     I don't know if you can see the document.

15        A.   00417D.  Okay.  Yes, I can see it.

16        Q.   Can you tell us, what is this document, who issued it, and

17     pursuant to what regulations?

18        A.   This is a decree by the president of the Republic of

19     Serbian Krajina, Milan Martic, on the fast-track promotion of

20     Milan Celeketic, colonel of the SVK.  He was fast-tracked to the rank of

21     major, and Article 78, paragraph 1, item 5 is invoked here specifically

22     of the Constitution of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  And -- The

23     microphone appears to be off.

24        Q.   No, no, no.  It's fine.

25        A.   Article 46, paragraph 1, Article 153, paragraph 1, item 2 on the

Page 10608

 1     Law on Defence, these are laws and regulations of the Serbian Krajina.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have an exhibit

 3     number for this document, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be

 7     assigned Exhibit D257.  Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 00277D, 65 ter D.

 9        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, 277D for you.

10        A.   I've got that.

11        Q.   The header reads Military Post 7572-6, Sarajevo.  The preamble

12     reads Military Post 3001 Belgrade, signed by Colonel-General

13     Ratko Mladic.  The military post in the header, what army's associated

14     with that?

15        A.   3001, that is the 30th Personnel Centre.

16        Q.   What about the stamp right above, do you know anything about

17     that?

18        A.   That is the command of the Main Staff of the VRS, at least that's

19     what I think, signed by the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.  That

20     leads me to that conclusion.

21        Q.   Where it says "decision," and then on the right-hand side,

22     "verified by controller 4," there is some sort of a date there as well.

23     Who is this controller or supervisor, the stamp that you can see on the

24     right-hand side?

25        A.   Earlier on in my testimony, I spoke about the way salaries and

Page 10609

 1     compensations and benefits were paid, and this was done by the

 2     accountancy centre of the federal defence ministry.  It appears here that

 3     there was a controller who found this document to be accurate and gave

 4     the go-ahead for the salaries to be paid, which means in practical terms

 5     that this person can now receive his salary under the regulations then in

 6     force and applied throughout the VJ.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we pull this up a little just to

 8     see who it was addressed to.

 9        Q.   At the bottom of this page there is an order to deliver.  I see

10     that it's there in the English but not in the Serbian.

11        A.   This was delivered to the accountancy centre of the defence

12     ministry, and a copy was sent to the archives where all of the records

13     were kept.  That's DPD 1 and DPD 2, the files we discussed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted, may it please be given an exhibit

16     number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document shall be

18     assigned Exhibit D258.  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document is also a

20     Defence 65 ter document, 00141D.

21        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, that's number 141D for you.

22        A.   I've got it.

23        Q.   Can you tell us what it is and who produced this document?

24        A.   In actual fact, this document confirms what I said a while ago,

25     the service situation for the VRS members and the SVK members.  In this

Page 10610

 1     specific case, it is a decree by the president of the Republika Srpska on

 2     the cessation of professional military service and dismissal from duty of

 3     General Novica Simic.  If you look closely at this document, you can see

 4     that the vice-president, Dragan Cavic, invokes Article 106 of the

 5     Constitution of Republika Srpska and Article 115, paragraph 1, item 3 of

 6     the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Actually, I won't be asking this

 8     question.  May this please be received.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

10     please be given an exhibit number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

12     Exhibit D259.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Another document very much like this

16     one from the Defence 65 ter list.  00368D --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  One speaker at a time,

18     please.  We couldn't get the number.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, Mr. Lukic, the interpreter couldn't get the

20     number because it was not one speaker at a time --

21             MR. LUKIC:  368D --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- sorry, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, the interpreter

23     warns precisely against more than one person talking at the same time.

24     Thank you so much.

25             368D.

Page 10611

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've got it.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   General, what is this document and who produced it?

 4        A.   This document was produced by Military Post 7572 Banja Luka,

 5     specifically Chief of the General Staff of the VRS, Novica Simic, a

 6     lieutenant-general by rank.  This is a decision in relation to the

 7     dismissal from duty Of Lieutenant-General Bogdan Sladojevic.  He's now no

 8     longer a professional military serviceman.

 9        Q.   There are several institutions stated as addressees, but what

10     about RS SMO, is that the account centre of the federal defence ministry?

11        A.   You could see that it was delivered to DPD 1, that is the central

12     archives.  There was a receipt.  The SOVO fund, military social

13     insurance, and can I explain why?

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   To make sure that he got all of his pension and disability

16     benefits.  The accounting centre for his salaries to be calculated, the

17     unit in which he happened to be, and DPP 2, which is the basic unit,

18     keeping all of the records to do with this person who is the subject of

19     this document.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

22     given an exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

24     Exhibit D260.  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is another

Page 10612

 1     Defence 65 ter list document, 00407D.

 2        Q.   This is from Military Post 9000, the 14th of February, 1995, 9000

 3     is from Knin, and this was sent to 4001 in Belgrade, another military

 4     post number.

 5        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 6        Q.   First of all, sir, what does this document say?  What is this

 7     military post code?  Which army is that?  Who are they sending this to?

 8     And finally, why?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right.  I apologise.  It's a

11     complex question.

12        Q.   What is this military post up in the header 9000 from Knin, which

13     army does that code belong to?

14        A.   4001, Belgrade, that's the 40th Personnel Centre, and that is the

15     SVK.

16        Q.   Just a minute.  I wasn't asking about that one.  It was actually

17     addressed to 4001, the 40th Personnel Centre, but who is the body

18     dispatching this document or sending it?  Who is the sender?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we pull this down, please.

20        Q.   You see the header up left, military post code.  It's got a -

21     wait a minute, please, sir - 9000, and then document number, date, and it

22     says Knin.  What army are we looking at here?

23        A.   9000, military post of the SVK.

24        Q.   And they are writing to?

25        A.   The 40th Personnel Centre in Belgrade.

Page 10613

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we pull this down just a little,

 2     please -- or rather, pull it up, up.  I said it wrong, down.

 3        Q.   There is a round stamp down there towards the bottom of the

 4     document.  Which army is that, and who signed the document, sir?

 5        A.   The stamp is from 9000 Knin.  And if I may just add something

 6     about this document --

 7        Q.   My idea was -- this is my third question - to ask you what the

 8     reason is for this military post to be addressing the

 9     40th Personnel Centre, why was this sent?

10        A.   At the beginning of the document, it says that in the attachment

11     they would be forwarding some decisions in relation to professional

12     servicemen.  Article 24, paragraph 3, official military gazette, 3893.

13     The decisions were adopted by the authorised officer, and they relate to

14     service in conditions of hardship.  If you look at the last part of this

15     document, Colonel Krnjaic is here submitting a request for these

16     decisions to be verified and forwarded to the accounting centre, whereas

17     single copies is to be returned to the Main Staff of the SVK so that it

18     could be filed and archived.

19        Q.   Why are these decisions here forwarded to the accounting centre

20     and just whose accounting centre?

21        A.   These decisions are forwarded to the accounting centre so that

22     certain salaries and benefits may be calculated and paid.

23        Q.   I asked whose, the defence ministry?

24        A.   The accounting centre.  It doesn't say exactly.  It was stated

25     clearly earlier on.  The accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence.

Page 10614

 1     This accounting centre, as I said earlier on, was subordinated to the

 2     administration for the funding and budget of the defence ministry.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 5     given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 7     Exhibit D261.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Registrar.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm done with my examination, but I

10     do have a correction to make in the transcript, page 13, lines 9 and 10,

11     when he was reading and then it says -- the witness said that's the

12     40th Personnel Centre -- I don't wish to be appearing to lead the

13     witness.  The 40th Personnel Centre, that is the SVK.

14        Q.   When you were reading the document, what exactly did you mean by

15     the "40th Personnel Centre"?

16        A.   The 40th Personnel Centre is attached to the personnel

17     administration of the General Staff of the VJ.

18        Q.   So members of what army are we talking about here in this case?

19        A.   Members of the SVK.

20        Q.   Thank you very much, General Nikolic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

22     examination of the present witness.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

24             Mr. Thomas.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If I could just have a

Page 10615

 1     brief moment to organise myself.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thomas:

 4        Q.   General, good morning.  My name is Barney Thomas.  I'm a lawyer

 5     for the Prosecution.  I have the opportunity at this stage in the

 6     proceedings to ask you a few questions about the testimony that you have

 7     given over the last few days.  I ask you, please, to listen carefully to

 8     my questions; your answers are important.  If you do understand any of my

 9     questions, please let me know and I'll ask them for you in a different

10     way.

11             Do we understand each other, sir?

12        A.   Yes, and good morning to you too.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to start just very briefly with a matter of

14     clarification on a document that we have just been looking at, please,

15     and that is D259.

16             MR. THOMAS:  If we could have that on the screen.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I can't see it on the

18     screen.  Can I have a hard copy of this document because I can't really

19     see it.

20        Q.   General, throughout your cross-examination we will be referring

21     to documents on the screen.  They will take a moment or two to appear on

22     the screen, as I call for them.  They can always be enlarged, portions of

23     them can be enlarged.  So if you counter, as we discuss any documents,

24     any portions which you have difficulty reading, please let me know and I

25     will arrange for a particular portion to be enlarged.  All right?

Page 10616

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This document -- well, the General

 2     has it in his binder.

 3             141D, sir.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it on the screen.

 5             MR. THOMAS:

 6        Q.   Now, General, we looked at -- or you looked at a couple of such

 7     documents this morning, decrees on the cessation of professional military

 8     service, and this one relates to General Simic.  What is the effective

 9     date of termination of his service?

10        A.   Sir, according to the text of the decree, we can conclude

11     unequivocally that this person's service is terminated on the

12     29th of October, 2002.

13        Q.   And we see, General, that the decree itself was issued on

14     1 November 1992; is that right?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas, you said November 1992?

16             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, 2002.  My apologies, Your Honour.

17     Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the bottom left-hand corner it

19     says number 02-111-775/02.  02, that's the designation of the year, and

20     the location is Banja Luka.  The date is the 1st of November, 2002.  That

21     means that at that time that this document was logged at the time in that

22     command.

23             MR. THOMAS:

24        Q.   All right, General, I will need your assistance here, then,

25     please.  Is there anything on the document apart from that logging of the

Page 10617

 1     document which assists in determining what day the decree was issued?

 2        A.   Below this number that I read out, in my opinion, because this is

 3     the -- a document from Republika Srpska, from the president of the

 4     republic, so in my opinion it was logged in the military office.  And the

 5     internal number is 01-229302, the 1st of November -- well, we can't see

 6     the year here, but I think it's 2002 in my opinion.  There's no year.  It

 7     says just the 1st of November.

 8        Q.   All right, General.  Let me ask it this way.  Is it fair for us

 9     to assume that this decree was issued on or about the

10     1st of November, 2002?

11        A.   I'm sorry, sir, but it would not be proper for me to interpret

12     whether this is a document of Republika Srpska, the president of the

13     republic, the military office, the way in which it is logged, and all the

14     rest.  Any interpretation on my part would perhaps be less than valid.

15     But I told you what was written here, where it was logged, and who logged

16     it, and when this person's service was terminated.  And you can also see

17     where this person was relieved of his duty.

18             And, sir, if you look at this decree, this person was relieved of

19     his duty as of the 11th of November, 2002; and immediately after that,

20     the dismissal followed.  The date is the 11th of November, 2002, which

21     means 11 days after the end of the service, the termination of the

22     service.  And there was a special procedure for the dismissal.  This is

23     what I can read from this decree.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but, Mr. Nikolic, thanks for that long

25     explanation, but it doesn't answer the question put to you.  The question

Page 10618

 1     is:  Is it fair to assume that this document was issued on the

 2     1st of November, 2002?  You can either say:  Yes, no, or I don't know.

 3     Very short answer.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

 6             Yes.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Thank you, General.  And that means that the decree was issued

 9     after the agreement on special parallel relations was concluded between

10     the FRY and the Republika Srpska; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you, General.  I just want to -- I've finished with that

13     document now.

14             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   And, General, I just want to go back to some background matters

16     that you spoke about last week.  And particularly, sir, I want to discuss

17     the relationship or the workings of the Ministry of Defence of the FRY

18     and the General Staff of the VJ following the restructuring which

19     occurred prior to General Perisic becoming Chief of the General Staff.

20     All right.

21             Do you follow me, sir?

22        A.   Absolutely.

23        Q.   Do you agree, sir, that under the new system the only source of

24     financing for the Army of Yugoslavia was 100 per cent from the federal

25     budget?

Page 10619

 1        A.   I'm sorry.  Do you mean the funds from the federal budget

 2     allocated for the army?

 3        Q.   Yes, I do, sir.  Did that constitute the universe of funding for

 4     the Army of Yugoslavia?

 5        A.   In my answers I stressed in particular that all the funds that

 6     the Army of Yugoslavia had at its disposal were obtained through the

 7     federal budget and only from the federal budget.  That was a joint

 8     budget, but it was called the military budget --

 9        Q.   Just pause, please, General.  As I indicated to you at the

10     beginning of my questions to you, please listen very carefully to my

11     question, answer only my question.  All right?  I only asked you if the

12     funding came exclusively from the federal budget.  We will move on to

13     those other matters.  Please just answer the question I've asked you.

14     Okay?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, this financing or this funding was based on an

17     annual budget; is that right?

18        A.   I'm not receiving interpretation.

19             Yes.

20        Q.   That process would begin with the General Staff of the VJ

21     preparing a combined plan of all the needs of the VJ for the upcoming

22     period; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   These would include such things as war reserves and salaries as

25     well as all other matters required for the operation of an army; correct?

Page 10620

 1        A.   By way of additional explanation, you talk about war reserves.  I

 2     don't know what you mean by that.

 3        Q.   Well, an army has war reserves, correct, stockpiles and stocks of

 4     ammunition and weapons and so on?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And the Yugoslav Army had such stocks?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   For the purposes of preparing the annual budget, they would

 9     submit a proposal or they would assess their own needs to either maintain

10     or increase existing war reservist; is that correct?

11        A.   Absolutely, yes.

12        Q.   And any expenditures considered necessary for that purpose would

13     be included in this plan prepared by the VJ General Staff?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   As would salaries for all VJ officers?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And is it correct that by far the largest expenditure was on

18     salaries for VJ officers?

19        A.   Yes.  Can I say approximately how much?

20        Q.   By all means, sir.

21        A.   The salaries and pensions took up 60 to 67 per cent of the

22     overall military budget.

23        Q.   At the stage of drafting a plan for its needs, at the stage of

24     the VJ General Staff drafting this plan for its budgetary needs, the MOD

25     would have no role to play of influence in terms of what it put into its

Page 10621

 1     plans, did it?

 2        A.   No, but if I may I would like to supplement my answer.

 3        Q.   Certainly, General.

 4        A.   I said in my answers that there was an absolute co-ordination in

 5     the effort to draft the plan for -- and the draft budget of the army in

 6     the Ministry of Defence, but the defence ministry, or rather, the defence

 7     minister is the one that makes the decision, the final decision, at that

 8     level.  The needs of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army were always

 9     presented in larger figures than the --

10        Q.   Just pause there, General --

11        A.   -- actual capabilities allowed.

12        Q.   General, once again my question was directed only towards the

13     preparation of the plan.  All right?  Your comments are related to the

14     process that followed.  Could you please, once again, keep your answers

15     limited to the question that I ask you.  All right?  We don't want to

16     keep you here longer, sir, than we need to.

17             Once the General Staff of the VJ had prepared its plan, its

18     budgetary plan, it then required the SDC to endorse this plan or approve

19     this plan; correct?

20        A.   No, but I have to give you an additional explanation here.  Sir,

21     may I?

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   You used the term -- you asked whether the

24     Supreme Defence Council approved that plan.  No.  The budget was approved

25     exclusively by the Federal Assembly at the proposal of the federal

Page 10622

 1     government.

 2        Q.   General, before the VJ presented its plan to the MOD for the

 3     MOD's input, it first went to the SDC; correct?

 4        A.   No.  Once again, I think there has been a misunderstanding here.

 5     May I try and explain?

 6        Q.   Yes, by all means.

 7        A.   You keep talking about the Supreme Defence Council.  Here we're

 8     talking about financial means, the budget, as you stressed yourself.  The

 9     defence ministry as the line ministry in the federal government is

10     duty-bound to draft the military budgetary plan in co-ordination with the

11     General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, as I have already said.  And this

12     plan or draft plan is submitted to the federal government.  And later on,

13     the federal government in turn submits the plan or the draft plan for the

14     budget for the current year to the Federal Assembly, which then decides

15     on the budget.  It's not the Supreme Defence Council that does that.

16        Q.   General, once again, listen to my question and perhaps I'm not

17     being clear.  I'm not suggesting that the SDC approved the budget.  What

18     I am suggesting, however, is that the SDC approved the plan created by

19     the General Staff prior to the plan being submitted to the MOD; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Well, the question doesn't seem clear to me.  The

22     Supreme Defence Council, in line with its powers, approves the

23     development plan for the army; and if there are any additional funds

24     there, the General Staff will bear that in mind when the budget is being

25     proposed to the federal government.

Page 10623

 1        Q.   All right.  And once the plan has been prepared by the

 2     General Staff of the VJ, it is provided then at that point to the

 3     Ministry of Defence; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, on the basis of the plan submitted by the

 6     Chief of General Staff of the VJ, the Ministry of Defence would then

 7     prepare a draft budget on behalf of the entire MOD for inclusion in the

 8     annual budget of the FRY; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And this budget or the MOD component of the budget would

11     effectively be comprised of the needs of the VJ contained in the plan

12     submitted by the General Staff and the needs for the internal workings of

13     the MOD, such as the equipment and salaries necessary for the MOD staff;

14     is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is it a fair assessment that this combined budget, this was

17     effectively made up of 95 per cent funding for the VJ and about

18     5 per cent funding for the MOD?

19        A.   This is a unified draft plan.  So -- of the ministry and the

20     army.  And this draft plan cannot be submitted to the federal government

21     before it is approved by the defence minister.  As regards the second

22     half of your question, what percentage went to the army and what

23     percentage went to the defence ministry, I cannot tell you at this point.

24     But to the best of my knowledge, I think that almost 85 to 90 per cent

25     went to the army, to meet its needs; and the rest went to the defence

Page 10624

 1     ministry.

 2        Q.   Now, these two budgets put together or these two plans put

 3     together, the VJ plan and the MOD plan, were these known as the national

 4     defence plan?

 5        A.   Let me repeat once again.  These are not different plans.  It's a

 6     unified draft plan, which is called the military budget.  It's not called

 7     the budget of the defence ministry.  Please.

 8        Q.   All right, General.  I think we're losing something in

 9     interpretation.  Nevertheless, let me approach it from this direction.

10     The combined MOD/VJ plan would then be reviewed by the MOD to determine

11     whether the amounts sought by the VJ, for example, were realistically

12     possible; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Once the MOD had settled on what it considered to be a realistic

15     budget, that proposed budget would be sent to the minister of defence for

16     his approval; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Was it often that the VJ asked for more money than it was

19     possible to give in the opinion of the MOD?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And on these occasions would there be discussions between the

22     General Staff of the VJ and the MOD staff responsible for preparing the

23     joint budget as to what amendments to the budget -- or the VJ plan,

24     rather, could be made; is that right?

25        A.   Yes.  But, sir, allow me to provide additional explanation.

Page 10625

 1     May I?  Thank you.

 2             At the beginning of your cross-examination I said that the

 3     relevant organisational units of the General Staff co-ordinated their

 4     efforts; in this specific case the 5th Administration of the

 5     General Staff co-ordinated its efforts with the administration for the

 6     funding and budget of the federal defence ministry.  And until they are

 7     able to agree on the terms, they do not submit the document to the

 8     defence minister for his signature.  So first they co-ordinate their

 9     views, those two institutions.

10             But let me draw your attention to the following:  The draft plan

11     of the budget is done on the basis of the guide-lines and the parameters

12     issued by the federal government, and which issues it before the budget

13     plan is actually done.

14        Q.   General, once the MOD approves this combined budget, it is then

15     submitted by the minister to the federal government for inclusion along

16     with all the other ministerial budgets and to the FRY annual budget; is

17     that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And ultimately the annual budget is -- or an annual budget is

20     approved by the federal government; correct?

21        A.   No.  But allow me to explain, please.

22        Q.   Please do, sir.

23        A.   At the outset I said the government does not approve the federal

24     budget.  The Federal Assembly does.  And the Federal Executive Council

25     must square everything with them.  The federal government establishes a

Page 10626

 1     final budget proposal, which is then submitted to the Federal Assembly

 2     for approval.

 3        Q.   All right.  Thank you, General.

 4             Now, once the annual budget is approved, effectively funds are

 5     transferred to all the ministries who form part of the annual budget for

 6     them to disburse against their own individual plans; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And so, any funds spent by or on behalf of the VJ are credited

 9     against that portion of the MOD budget that was agreed with the VJ in

10     accordance with the plan submitted by the Chief of the General Staff, was

11     it not?

12        A.   No.  May I additionally explain?  The question actually contains

13     several sub-questions.  May I explain?

14        Q.   General, let me ask the question a different way.  This might be

15     simpler.  The annual budget approved by the Federal Assembly details the

16     expenditures to be made on behalf of each federal ministry; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   In terms of the expenditures to be credited against the

19     Ministry of Defence, the annual budget details what is to be spent on the

20     VJ and what is to be spent on the Ministry of Defence; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   On the basis of that, expenditures are then made; correct?

23        A.   On the basis of that, the defence minister adopts a decision on

24     the expenditures for the VJ and a special decision concerning the

25     organisational units of the defence ministry, meaning he adopts a

Page 10627

 1     decision on expenditures.

 2        Q.   In accordance with the annual budget approved by the

 3     Federal Assembly; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, the VJ for its own ability to function needed funds which it

 6     could spend in accordance with that annual budget; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And these funds were transferred to the VJ almost daily to enable

 9     it to function; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Specifically they were sent to the accounting centre at the

12     General Staff of the VJ; correct?

13        A.   The accounting centre calculated and paid out salaries which was

14     a segment of the overall budget.  The accounting centre was also in

15     charge of making actual payments to what we called suppliers for the food

16     that was sent to the army, for the beds, for example, and all the other

17     equipment.

18        Q.   General, pause, please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... when a time is

20     convenient.

21             MR. THOMAS:  Now would be an appropriate time, sir.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  We'll take a break and come

23     back at quarter to 11.00.  Court adjourned.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

Page 10628

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   General, would there be occasions when large disbursements on

 4     behalf of the VJ, for example, for large construction projects or the

 5     purchase of large amounts of ammunition would be made on behalf of the

 6     VJ by the MOD?

 7        A.   Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, with all due respect, given the fact that

 8     these are questions that exceed my competence, I can hardly be expected

 9     to answer questions about logistics, because these are questions to do

10     with the more logistical aspects.  Any answer that I might provide

11     concerning issues such as these might be no more than very general

12     answers and not sufficiently valid, I suspect, for the Trial Chamber to

13     take into consideration.

14        Q.   All right.  No, I understand.  Nevertheless, you would be able to

15     answer this question for me I think, that it was the army who controlled

16     its own war reserves?

17        A.   The answer is both yes and no.

18        Q.   Can you explain, sir?

19        A.   The VJ had control over the equipment and weapons that it was in

20     the actual possession of and whatever it was using.  As for whatever the

21     federal defence ministry was using, they were in charge of that, and they

22     were controlling those reserves.

23        Q.   So the VJ's own war reserves were under the control of the

24     VJ General Staff; correct?

25        A.   For the most part, yes.

Page 10629

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  I wonder, Your Honours, if we could please go into

 3     private session just for a moment.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 5     [Private session]  [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             Yes, Mr. Thomas.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             Could we please have Exhibit P1009 on the screen.

11        Q.   General, as this document appears, if you would just give it a

12     moment, but when it appears you will see that it is an order issued by

13     President Lilic in 1994 on supplying the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres

14     with weapons and military equipment; you see that?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that in the B/C/S document

17     which -- we should have the following page, which what I think is a cover

18     letter.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  I see a cover

20     letter there on my screen.

21             MR. THOMAS:

22        Q.   Just pause for a moment, General.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Registrar, do we have the next page in B/C/S?

24     Sorry, page 3.  Thank you, and I'm indebted to counsel, Your Honours.

25     Thank you.

Page 10630

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. THOMAS:

 3        Q.   So, General, again to repeat my question.  You see this as an

 4     order of President Lilic on supplying the 30th and 40th Personnel Centre

 5     with weapons and military equipment.  Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you'll see that he orders that it is the Chief of the

 8     General Staff who was responsible for reconciling requests with the means

 9     of the army to fill them; do you see that?

10        A.   Yes.  Based on what it says here, yes.

11        Q.   Would it follow then, General, that this is an order to the

12     supply the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres from the war reserves

13     controlled by the army?

14        A.   Sir, the order to supply the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres from

15     the war reserves in terms of equipment and weapons is something that

16     never could have happened, for the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres to be

17     in this situation.  These units numbered between 10 and 12 men each,

18     maybe enough to fill one or two offices.  Imagine there was a rocket

19     system arriving in one of these offices, not feasible.  Most probably

20     what they say about these supplies to the 30th Personnel Centre, this is

21     probably a security thing.  It says the 30th -- the association here is

22     probably with the Main Staff of the VRS and the Main Staff of the SVK.

23             Again, I was head of the personnel administration, and this unit

24     was part of my administration, the 30th Personnel Centre.  It was never

25     the case, never ever, that they received anything, not anything that was

Page 10631

 1     made of glass, not any type of equipment, and least of all weapons.

 2        Q.   General, I just want to go on with that topic for a moment --

 3             MR. THOMAS:  But we can do that in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

 5             Do you still want this document to stay on the screen?

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Sorry, Your Honours, that should come off the

 7     screen.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the document please be removed from the screen

 9     before we go into open session.  Thank you.

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             MR. THOMAS:  If we look at document P628, please.

14        Q.   Now, General, you will see that this is issued by the

15     Chief of the General Staff, General Perisic.  And it reminds officers of

16     the army that there are protocols in place for supplying logistics to the

17     30th and 40th Personnel Centres and that these must be followed.  You see

18     that?

19        A.   I can't see anything in the Serbian.  I'm unable to read anything

20     at all.  Could I please be served a hard copy -- all right, I can see it

21     now.

22             May I just read through it, please?

23        Q.   Of course, sir.

24        A.   I've read it.  I'm now familiar with the substance of this

25     document.

Page 10632

 1        Q.   Plainly, sir, in this context, as you have already observed, the

 2     30th Personnel Centre means the Main Staff of the VRS and the

 3     40th Personnel Centre means the Main Staff of the SVK; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6        A.   That's at least what I think.

 7        Q.   All right.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

22     [Private session]        [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Yes, Mr. Thomas.

Page 10633

 1             MR. THOMAS:  And, Your Honours, I seek an order for redaction for

 2     the question and answers dealing with the description of that document.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What lines are you talking about?

 4             MR. THOMAS:  They are lines -- sorry, page 32, line 19, sir to --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The end of the page?

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May we have that part redacted, please.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

10             MR. THOMAS:

11        Q.   General, you'll see that, in pages 2 and 3 of the document, that

12     the request is for large amounts of infantry ammunition, for example,

13     5 million rounds of 7.62-millimetre rounds, we have artillery ammunition,

14     we have anti-aircraft ammunition, and we have oil and fuel.  Do you see

15     that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   All right.  You might not be in a position to answer this

18     question, but certainly on the basis of the document this is a request

19     for VJ war reserves; correct?  And tell us if you can't answer the

20     question.

21        A.   Your Honours, again I must point out the following:  This is

22     about logistical support, which exceeds my area of competence.  Any

23     answer I might provide would be useless.  I can look at a document, see

24     what it talks about; nevertheless, I am certain that there are people who

25     are better placed than I am to answer these questions because they were

Page 10634

 1     in this actual line of work.  Any answer that I might provide would not

 2     be sufficiently valid for evaluation purposes.

 3        Q.   All right, General.  Nevertheless, are you able to confirm for us

 4     that what we have here are requests direct from the VRS to the

 5     VJ General Staff without any involvement, for example, of the MOD?  Is

 6     that what the document shows?

 7        A.   Sir, as we saw at the outset, this is a 1994 document, unless I'm

 8     mistaken.  May I please be reminded.  This is 1994, right?

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Could we please have the top of the document,

10     please.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 30th of January, 1994.

12             Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, as you already heard, I was part of the

13     defence ministry chain of command at the time.  I was head of the system

14     and status-related issues administration.  Our line of work was quite

15     different from what we've been discussing.  Again, anything I say -- what

16     I can do for you is read what the document says.  Nevertheless, as to the

17     substance, as to the whys and wherefores, again I have to point this

18     out - I have no choice but to say it - this is something that exceeded my

19     competence.

20             MR. THOMAS:

21        Q.   General, I understand.  Let's move to an area you're more

22     familiar with.

23             MR. THOMAS:  P1873, please.  We can move, Your Honours, into open

24     session.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

Page 10635

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 4             Yes, Mr. Thomas.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             Now, the page I'm looking for, Your Honours, in English is

 7     ERN 0630-6534.  It's a document that was used with General Nikolic on

 8     Friday.

 9        Q.   General, you will recognise this document.  This was the series

10     of documents that contained the MOD opinion on the need to form the -- or

11     a regime to deal with those who were in the VRS and the SVK from the

12     former JNA and VJ.  You recall this series of documents?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. THOMAS:  I'd like to go, as I said, Your Honours, please, to

15     doc ID number in the English 653 -- ending 6534 and the corresponding

16     document.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. -- I don't understand what you are

18     saying, Mr. Thomas.

19             MR. THOMAS:  Sir, this was a document used on Friday to identify

20     the particular English page.  My learned friend referred to a doc ID

21     number of 6534.  This is a document where there are a number of different

22     English translations attached to the single B/C/S document.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, is it part of this document?

24             MR. THOMAS:  It is.  This is the document that we now have on the

25     screen, sir, it's part of Exhibit P1873.

Page 10636

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  All right.

 2             MR. THOMAS:

 3        Q.   General, we won't stay long on this document, but this is the

 4     Ministry of Defence opinion regarding the difficulties in how to deal

 5     those who were from the VJ or JNA and serving in the VRS and the SVK.

 6     The first thing I want to draw your attention to -- in fact, what I want

 7     to draw your attention to is the last line in the second paragraph.  All

 8     right.  In fact, if you look at the first paragraph there is a -- if you

 9     look at the second paragraph, there is a remark that:

10             "... we believe there are no explicit legal grounds for such an

11     order to deal with the issues raised ..."

12             Do you see that reference at the beginning of paragraph 2?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And particularly we are talking about people who are referred to

15     in paragraph 1, namely -- or the issue as that raised in paragraph 1,

16     which is, regulating the status and dispatch of professional officers,

17     non-commissioned officers, and civilians to the Army of Republika Srpska

18     and the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So what is proposed here is a means of dealing with that in the

21     absence of a legal basis; is that right?

22        A.   Sir, it doesn't say that there is no foundation in the law, but

23     that there is no explicit legal foundation for the regulation of those

24     issues that were raised.  What that means is that there is no valid legal

25     foundation.

Page 10637

 1        Q.   All right.  A comment I want to refer you to is in the last line

 2     of the paragraph where the suggestion that -- the next sentence:

 3             "However, there is an apparent need for such a political decision

 4     to be made at the highest level of command and control, but it goes

 5     without saying that the possible implications that would result from

 6     this, especially from an international standpoint, will be assessed."

 7             Okay?  Now, you alluded to this yesterday and the answer may be

 8     obvious, but can you tell us, please, what the possible implications are

 9     that are being referred to in that document, especially from an

10     international standpoint.  What was it that was concerning the MOD about

11     the implications of this?

12        A.   When our suggestions were given, since this is a document

13     originating from the system and status issues administration, before a

14     decision is taken, an assessment has to be made of any implications.  The

15     implications might in our opinion pertain to the international community,

16     because, at that time, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was under the

17     sanctions regime; and in the highest political body and at the highest

18     level of command and control when decisions of this kind were taken,

19     those assessments had to be made.

20        Q.   Well, the MOD would have anticipated that there would have been

21     international repercussions had the international community been aware

22     that soldiers were being dispatched to the SVK and the VRS, wouldn't

23     they?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   The MOD didn't anticipate any problem with that?

Page 10638

 1        A.   I apologise.  The question is different now.  Yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  You mentioned at some point in your testimony yesterday

 3     that reference to the 30th Personnel Centre and 40th Personnel Centre in

 4     documents is effectively to keep information secret, is that correct, in

 5     some documents?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And depending on the context, these can be euphemisms for the VRS

 8     and the SVK; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   I want to move, please, in the same exhibit to document ID number

11     0630-6538, please.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, and I do apologise.  I was hoping that

13     we could get a translation for the word "euphemism."  I understand what

14     you mean by the word, Mr. Thomas, but I'm not sure necessarily some other

15     people here do.  So if we could get a translation just for that one

16     particular word "euphemism," we would appreciate it.  How is it

17     translated into Serbian?

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I miss why it was used.

19             MR. THOMAS:  The reference, Your Honour, is line 19 at page 38.

20     And obviously, Your Honour, I can't assist my learned friend with his

21     inquiry, but perhaps if Madam Interpreter can do so.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I guess --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The Serbian word is "eufemizam."

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 10639

 1             Can we please have -- oh, we have it on the screen.

 2        Q.   Now, General, you will recall that these statement of reasons

 3     issued by the personnel administration of the VJ General Staff for the

 4     proposed draft order on how the structure for dealing with this issue

 5     should be implemented.  You recall that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you'll see there that the General Staff in the first

 8     paragraph echo in line 6 of the English - I'm not sure of the

 9     corresponding line in your language - but there is a reference to the:

10             "... lack of a legal basis or decision by the responsible SFRY

11     state and military order -- organ, sorry, to temporarily dispatch."

12             You see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And at the end of that paragraph we have another reference to the

15     absence of legality.

16             "Up until now, all of this was done in accordance with temporary

17     standpoints of the Chief of General Staff of the VJ, and these

18     standpoints were changed from time to time but without any legal basis

19     and in a semi-legal manner."

20             Do you see that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Is one of the problems that there is no provision in the law by

23     that time and then in the Law of the VJ permitting the transfer of

24     soldiers - let's start with the obvious - allowing the transfer of

25     soldiers to fight in another nation's army?

Page 10640

 1        A.   Sir, the first part that you read out where the personnel

 2     administration is stating its view, that's the personnel administration

 3     of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army -- well, you've said so

 4     yourself.  I can merely give you my interpretation or I can read out what

 5     the chief of the personnel administration said by way of explanation to

 6     the Chief of the General Staff --

 7        Q.   Just pause there.  Just pause there for a moment, General.

 8             The statement of reasons effectively adopts the position of the

 9     MOD on this matter, doesn't it?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   All right.  Just pause there.  The MOD considered that there was

12     no legal basis for the dispatch of soldiers to these two armies or for

13     that regulation of their status in the VJ?

14        A.   Yes, but if you allow me, sir, I would like to explain why I said

15     no.  I thought that you had asked me whether this is a document from the

16     personnel administration of the General Staff.  I meant this document.

17     And what we did was precisely what you yourself said, our opinion on the

18     draft decision.  We were not given the opinion of the personnel

19     administration.  It was a draft order that was drafted in the

20     General Staff of the Yugoslav Army.  And we, the system and status issues

21     administration -- or rather, the sector for status and system issues gave

22     its views and proposals regarding the draft decision.  And this is a

23     statement of reasons provided by the personnel administration of the

24     General Staff, at least that's what I can say based on what I see,

25     because I don't see the -- anything else but what is here on the screen.

Page 10641

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Well, let's go to P1872.

 3        Q.   Now, you'll see here that here is a letter from the

 4     Yugoslav Army General Staff forwarding some documents to the

 5     Federal Ministry of Defence, dated 8 October 1993.  And in the body of

 6     the letter we see that the Chief of the General Staff agreed with a

 7     proposed amendment to the draft order, and that has been re-drafted for

 8     the president of the republic.  And as for other objections, the

 9     Chief of the General Staff -- I'm sorry, the administration for system

10     and status issues -- I'm sorry, the personnel administration of the

11     General Staff of the VJ presented their position and the -- to the SDC,

12     and included also with this letter is the position taken by the

13     Chief of the General Staff at the SDC.  Is that correct?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we see where the SDC is referred to on the

15     document?

16             MR. THOMAS:  It's not, Your Honours, but if we go to page 3 of

17     the document, and that's page 2 in the B/C/S.

18             Your Honours, the ERN number is 063 -- sorry, 0630-6544 to 46.

19        Q.   You'll see there, General, that this enclosure with the letter

20     records the remarks of the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ made to

21     the SDC, and I think you referred to this document on Friday?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   All right.  Do we see in that document that the

24     Chief of the General Staff has adopted also the MOD position; in other

25     words, if you look at paragraph 3, do we see his view that the legal

Page 10642

 1     position and personal status of all these persons who stayed behind and

 2     those who were dispatched there has not been equally regulated regarding

 3     salary and so on.  Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And again, here, it goes:

 6             The position that so far the Yugoslav Army did not have a legal

 7     basis in the regulations and there has been no decision issued which

 8     would permit the Yugoslav Army General Staff to dispatch these persons

 9     out of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

10             You see that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  I want to look at the next page in the English, please,

13     and it's in page 3 of the B/C/S, where the Chief of the General Staff

14     refers again to this difficulty --

15             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Madam Registrar, that should be -- that

16     should be the next page.

17             Sorry, could we scroll up, please -- sorry, the original page

18     that you had, the last one.  Thank you.  Just there.  And the

19     corresponding page.  The paragraph I want to look at begins, please,

20     "on the other hand," that is in page 3 of the B/C/S.

21        Q.   General, do you see a paragraph which begins:

22             "On the other hand, the crucial fact is that there is no solid

23     legal framework which could not come under attack in possible litigation

24     for dispatching these active servicemen outside of the FRY without their

25     consent."

Page 10643

 1             Do you see that there?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What I want to refer to is the next comment:

 4             "Therefore, we must also ensure a high degree of protection of

 5     the information regarding these activities, which is very difficult ..."

 6     then there's a parenthetical remark, "particularly in relation to the

 7     local and foreign public."

 8             Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Does this echo the same concerns that the MOD had about this

11     process?

12        A.   Yes, in part.  But, sir, might I provide an additional

13     explanation?

14        Q.   By all means.

15        A.   The law on the Yugoslav Army I think in Article 162 speaks about

16     the data protection in no uncertain terms, especially when it comes to

17     issues such as this one.  Any violation would be tantamount to an

18     infraction of military discipline or a violation of military secret or

19     state secret, and such persons would be subject to criminal prosecution.

20     And I still maintain what I said about the implications.  So this is

21     because of the data security.  Every army has its documents and files

22     that are marked as confidential to a different degree, military secret,

23     confidential, strictly confidential, and state secret.

24        Q.   But, General, there is an added dimension beyond ordinary

25     military classified documents here.  This is a situation where the FRY

Page 10644

 1     was anticipating sending people to these two armies without their consent

 2     and in violation of Security Council Resolutions to provide assistance --

 3     or to not provide assistance to the Republika Srpska.  Is that correct?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I think it's a compound

 6     question, sending without their approval and in violation of the

 7     Security Council Resolutions, and so on.  I think that it should be cut

 8     up into several questions.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

10             MR. THOMAS:  I can deal with that, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. THOMAS:

13        Q.   There was an intention to send soldiers or officers to the armies

14     of the VRS and the SVK even without their consent, wasn't there?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Pause.  I wanted to go down two paragraphs from what we were

17     reading.  And this, again, is the comments of the general --

18     Chief of the General Staff, General Perisic, to the SDC.

19             "In the proposed Order of the President -- prepared for signing

20     by the president.

21             "In the proposed order of the President of the Federal Republic

22     of Yugoslavia, and by decision of the Supreme Defence Council, which

23     would become operational and put into effect through the order of the

24     Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, this task would be

25     resolved in such a way that all professional officers and civilians

Page 10645

 1     serving in the Yugoslav Army who were born in Croatia or

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina and sent to do their training or service in the JNA

 3     from these territories, would be obliged to respond to call-up from the

 4     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska or the

 5     Republic of Serbian Krajina, or else their service in the Yugoslav Army

 6     would be terminated.

 7             "The relevant officer in the Yugoslav Army would make all these

 8     persons available and send them to a special organ of the Yugoslav Army

 9     General Staff (personnel administration), based in Belgrade."

10             Now, General, does that not suggest to you that there was an

11     intention to send people, no matter what their position on being

12     dispatched was?

13        A.   Sir, I'm thankful to you for reminding me of those elements that

14     we in our administration for system and status issues highlighted; and

15     when we commented on the order of President Lilic, all of these issues

16     were deleted.  They are not there.  And the Chief of the General Staff

17     here presents his opinion in these preparatory actions.  And in light of

18     the circumstances and the context, the persons that remained there until

19     the 19th of May, 1992, on a voluntary basis, should also include the

20     persons who were in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia but were born in

21     the territory of Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina and

22     were sent for training from those two republics or to serve in

23     Yugoslavia, that they should respond to the call-up and take part in

24     defending their own people.  And since nobody was forced to go, but for

25     the most part as far as I know nobody was forced, nobody was ordered to

Page 10646

 1     go without their agreement.

 2             If I may draw your attention to this:  When I was employed in the

 3     personnel administration of the Army of Yugoslavia, we did an analysis

 4     and we never came across any information that would indicate that

 5     somebody was forced to serve there.  And if anyone was made to go there,

 6     those people did not suffer any consequences in terms of their service.

 7     And if their rights were violated, they could file a legal suit.

 8        Q.   All right.  Well, we'll look in a moment at the question of

 9     whether anybody was forced to go or not, but before we do so can we look

10     at P731, please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that part of a sentence is

13     missing at page 46, line 16.  If somebody refused to go, that's what it's

14     missing.  And then it goes on to say they did not suffer any

15     consequences.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, what I do see, Mr. Lukic, "and if anyone was

17     made to go there, those people did not suffer any consequences in terms

18     of their service."

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said "if they refused to

20     go," then they wouldn't suffer any consequences.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22             Yes, Mr. Thomas.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, I just want to deal with that issue

24     now for a moment.

25             Can we please go back to the previous document, P1872, and again

Page 10647

 1     the Chief of the General Staff's position which is ERN 0630-6544.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To 46?

 3             MR. THOMAS:  And page 2 in the English and page 4 in the B/C/S --

 4     or the next page in the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   Now, General, General Perisic has a position on what should

 6     happen to those who refuse to go.  And I want to scroll down to the last

 7     paragraph in the English, please.

 8             "For the persons who refuse to be made available and dispatched

 9     to the Army of Republika Srpska or the Republic of Serbian Krajina, the

10     relevant officer in the Yugoslav Army would immediately issue a document

11     terminating their service in the Yugoslav Army."

12             Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. THOMAS:  I wonder if we could please have Exhibit 2827 on the

16     screen.  And perhaps, Your Honours, just before that comes, up let me

17     just check that that is not a protected document.  It is not.  We can

18     deal with it in open session, Your Honours.

19        Q.   Now, General, this is a document --

20        A.   Can you blow this up, please, a little.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Just take your time to read it, General, and then we will put the

22     English version up for Their Honours.

23             And it's probably sufficient for our purposes, General, if you

24     just read that one page so I don't need to go into the second page of the

25     document.

Page 10648

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  And, Madam Registrar, if we could please have the

 3     English version on the screen for Their Honours.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   General, you'll see that this is a document from the

 5     3rd Army command, 3rd Army of the VJ, that is, to the Nis and

 6     Pristina Corps commands and to the 1st Anti-Armour Battalion commands,

 7     all units in the 3rd Army, following the orders given by the chief of the

 8     VJ - and I'll need your assistance here - our translation is

 9     "Main Staff," but that should be "General Staff."  Correct?

10        A.   Yes.  Go ahead, please.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, there is a request following the orders of the

12     Chief of the General Staff that officers -- that certain steps need to be

13     taken in relation to officers who failed to follow an order on deployment

14     to the 40th Personnel Centre or who otherwise left units of the 30th --

15     sorry, 40th Personnel Centre of their own will.  Now, just -- I

16     understand what you mean about the 40th Personnel Centre being ten people

17     in a small office.  What we're talking about here are soldiers who

18     disobeyed an order to deploy to the SVK and those who deserted from SVK

19     units; is that correct?

20        A.   Before I answer yes or no, these are not soldiers.  These are

21     officers.  As for the latter part of your question, yes, these are

22     officers who abandoned their units of their own free will without proper

23     authorisation or simply failed to report.  The third part of the question

24     that you asked me was the 30th/40th Personnel Centre, these were

25     subordinated to the personnel administration of the General Staff of the

Page 10649

 1     VJ.  Records were kept there of all soldiers.  And obviously all

 2     status-related issues as well as any other issues could only be dealt

 3     with through these two.

 4        Q.   All right.  Now, if we look at the steps that are required to be

 5     taken in respect of these people, General, the first is to establish the

 6     whereabouts of those deployed; the second is to urgently inform the

 7     personnel of the 3rd Army command, whether any of them have since

 8     returned to the 40th Personnel Centre main composition - and here we mean

 9     the SVK; and to pass on an order, finally, to those who deserted or who

10     refused to obey the deployment order, to pass on the order by the Chief

11     of the VJ General Staff that they are required to report to a meeting

12     with him at a certain time and place.

13             You see that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And the officers concerned are listed in the balance of that

16     letter?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. THOMAS:  And I'd like to go now to P1865, please.

20        Q.   P1865 is a letter from the 3rd Army command dated October --

21     7th of October, 1994, reporting on what happened to these individuals as

22     a result of these steps being taken out, specifically after interviews of

23     those concerned were conducted with officers with the -- sorry, after

24     interviews of those officers were conducted by the

25     Chief of the General Staff of the VJ, General Perisic.  Is that right?

Page 10650

 1        A.   Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, this was back in 1994 when the

 2     Chief of the General Staff, at least based on this document, had this

 3     conversation.  Again, I have to say, I was in the defence ministry.  As

 4     for the text itself, it's clear, isn't it?  What I mean to say is I

 5     didn't hear your question.

 6        Q.   All right.  No, that's fair, General.  I was giving you the

 7     details of the document.  I want your -- I want your view now on whether

 8     this document shows that there were ramifications for those who refused

 9     to obey a transfer order, and I will take you to certain parts of this

10     document and show some passages to you.  Under the order the 3rd Army --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I may be jumping to my feet

13     prematurely.  Perhaps Mr. Thomas was about to show this document.  I

14     think it might be a good idea for the witness to go through the entire

15     page before he answers.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

17             MR. THOMAS:  I have no problem with that at all, Your Honours.

18        Q.   General, please take your time.  Read through the entire

19     document.  And I'll have some questions about it for you when you're

20     ready.

21        A.   Could we please have this pulled up slightly.  Thank you.

22             Is there any more text here to be shown?

23             It's all clear to me.  Can I have the question now, sir, please.

24        Q.   Yes, General.  Thank you.  The first part of the order lists

25     seven individuals who, after interview with General Perisic, will now

Page 10651

 1     report to the 40th Personnel Centre; is that right?

 2        A.   The bottom of the page where these persons are enumerated, their

 3     tasks are specified.  Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, in order to make this a valid

 4     answer, I would need to explain something for the discussion to proceed

 5     in the right direction.  These persons listed here were not sent anywhere

 6     without a proper legal foundation.  It was under Article 271 of the law.

 7     Everything was done under that article.  It was their duty to carry out

 8     this order, and they left their post.  The Chief of the General Staff,

 9     probably pursuant to a request of the commander of the Main Staff of

10     Serbian Krajina, is now asking these persons be tracked down to see what

11     became of them.  And that is why the conversation took place.

12             Nevertheless, I am looking at the document in its entirety, and

13     what it says is the conversation was about certain people no longer

14     remaining there, but, rather, their retirement is here being requested

15     and another solution sought in terms of regulating their status within

16     the service.  So that is what was being done here.  No one's hand is

17     being forced, no one is being punished; on the other hand, each person

18     who left their unit must be made responsible under the rules of the army

19     they belonged to and their own chain of command.  Since this is the

20     commander of the Main Staff speaking here, he's seeking assistance in the

21     belief that these persons were here in this area that he specifies.  I

22     don't see anything controversial about this, sir.

23        Q.   All right.  Well, let's look at this document a little more.

24     After the number 8 on the front page, we have a paragraph which reads:

25             "All above mentioned professional soldiers have to report to the

Page 10652

 1     centre of -- have to report to the centre of the military schools of the

 2     Yugoslav Army in Belgrade ... with" --

 3        A.   I can't see that.

 4        Q.   All right.  Do you see on the front page where eight soldiers

 5     are -- the names of eight soldiers -- sorry, eight officers are listed?

 6     The first seven are very clear, then there is a line, a blank line, and

 7     then we have officer number 8 right in the centre of the page as you are

 8     looking at it now, General.

 9        A.   8 Macak.

10        Q.   Now, the sentence that I'm looking at immediately follows

11     number 8, all right?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   "All the above mentioned professional soldiers have to report to

14     the centre of the military schools of the Yugoslav Army in the Belgrade

15     garrison with adequate field equipment in order to be sent to units of

16     the 40th Personnel Centre.  They have to report on the 15th of October at

17     0800 hours."

18             All right.  You see that?

19        A.   Yes, I see that.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, some of these men had previously deserted their

21     units.  For example, if you look at number 1, Vaso Bosanac deliberately

22     left units of the 40th Personnel Centre.  Mr. Keca deliberately left

23     units of the 40th Personnel Centre.  Some, however, refused to follow

24     transfer orders such as Sergeant Drinic, first class, on duty in the

25     Pristina Corps did not follow transfer order.  Sergeant Pupovac, sergeant

Page 10653

 1     first class on duty in the Nis Corps did not follow a transfer order.

 2     Sergeant Bogdanovic, sergeant first class on duty in the Nis Corps did

 3     not follow a transfer order.

 4             And the rest of that list is all in relation to officers who did

 5     not follow the transfer order to the 40th Personnel Centre; isn't that

 6     right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   If we go down to where there is reference to warrant officer

 9     Mraovic, please.  Just take a moment to read that paragraph, and then I'm

10     going to have the English version placed on the screen for Their Honours.

11        A.   Mraovic Ljubana Zeljko, warrant officer first class, on duty in

12     the Nis Corps --

13        Q.   Just read it to yourself for the moment, General.  When you're

14     done --

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16             MR. THOMAS:  Could we have the English on the screen for Their

17     Honours.

18             And, Your Honours, I'm looking at about two-thirds of the way

19     down the page where there is reference to Mraovic and Sakic.

20             Now, in relation to Mraovic and Sakic following their meeting

21     with the Chief of the General Staff, as either individuals who had

22     deserted 40th personnel units or had refused to transfer to the

23     40th Personnel Centre, the order here is to initiate procedure for the

24     termination of their professional military service, isn't it?

25        A.   That's what the document says, yes.

Page 10654

 1             MR. THOMAS:  And if we look, Your Honours, at the next page in

 2     English, I think it's the same page in the B/C/S, they are handed one

 3     more opportunity.

 4        Q.   "In case that above named do not want to terminate their

 5     professional military service upon their request, they are to be referred

 6     to report to units of the 40th Personnel Centre in the period regulated

 7     by point 1 of this order."

 8             So in other words, the only way they could avoid termination was

 9     to request transfer to the 40th Personnel Centre; isn't that what the

10     document says?

11        A.   Yes, the text certainly suggests that.

12        Q.   All right --

13        A.   Your Honours, may I have a minute, please, three minutes, a break

14     for ...

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

16             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, now would be --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will take the break.  We'll come back at half

18     past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

19                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             Could we please have Exhibit P731 on the screen.

24        Q.   And, General, just while that's coming, I hope you're feeling a

25     little better.  Please don't hesitate, if you need a break, to do what

Page 10655

 1     you did and request one.

 2        A.   Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now, General, this was ultimately the order that was signed by

 4     President Lilic on the formation of the personnel centres; is that right?

 5        A.   I can't see the entire order, but that should be it.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Perhaps if we just go to the last page,

 7     Madam Registrar -- sorry, Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  All right.  I want to go back, please, to

10     paragraph 1, Mr. Registrar.

11        Q.   All right, General, and the first part of paragraph 1,

12     President Lilic identifies the category of person to whom -- or in

13     respect of whom the order is to reply; namely, active duty servicemen,

14     contract servicemen, and civilian employees of the former JNA who

15     remained in the territory of Republika Srpska and

16     Republic of Serbian Krajina and the professional servicemen and civilians

17     employed in the Yugoslav Army who were born in the former republics of

18     Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina and were admitted to military schools

19     or joined the JNA for those countries.

20             Am I reading that document that identifies the category of

21     person?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   The second part of that paragraph deals with their dispatch.

24             The individuals mentioned in the previous paragraph shall be:

25             "... dispatched, assigned, transferred, and appointed, depending

Page 10656

 1     on the needs of the service and the individuals' abilities, as per the

 2     establishment of personnel centres that will be set up by the

 3     Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army."

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that the LiveNote is blocked.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll wait.

 9                           [Technical difficulty]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It looks like it's taking a bit of time to get

11     started.  We'll take a break, and we'll be called.

12                           --- Break taken at 12.41

13                           --- On resuming at 12.55

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas -- does it mean the couple of

15     words or the few words that were mentioned between you and the witness

16     are not going to be recovered?

17             MR. THOMAS:  It looks like it, Your Honour, but I think I can get

18     through that quickly again.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you would.  Thank you.

20             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.

21        Q.   General, we're looking at document P731 on the screen and just

22     before we adjourned you were able to confirm that this was ultimately the

23     order signed by President Lilic authorising the formation of the

24     30th and 40th Personnel Centres?

25        A.   Sir, in President Lilic's order it is merely stipulated that

Page 10657

 1     personnel centres would be established, not specifying which ones, so not

 2     the 30th and the 40th Personnel Centres, but just personnel centres.

 3        Q.   Now, General, you're quite right, and I should have been more

 4     particular with my question.  But this is the Lilic order that

 5     effectively began that process?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And paragraph 1, the first part of paragraph 1, identifies a

 8     particular category of person, namely, active-duty servicemen, contract

 9     servicemen, and civilian employees of the former JNA who remained in the

10     territory of Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina and the

11     professional servicemen and civilians employed in the Yugoslav Army who

12     were born on the former republics of Croatia and Bosnia and were admitted

13     to military schools or joined the JNA from these republics.

14        A.   Sir, I did not hear the question.

15        Q.   It's coming, General, sorry.  I was giving you a moment for your

16     translation.

17             Now, the second part of paragraph 1 states that those people

18     shall be dispatched, doesn't it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   The only conditions are that this be subject to the needs of the

21     service and the individuals' abilities; is that right?

22        A.   Yes, but we have to add the rest; not only sending, but transfer

23     and appointment to appropriate posts, assignment, transferral,

24     dispatching.  You have to list all of those.

25        Q.   You're entirely correct, General.  So these people shall be

Page 10658

 1     dispatched, assigned, transferred, and appointed to appropriate posts.

 2     What is missing from that paragraph, is it not, is that this dispatch,

 3     assignment, transferral, or appointment is at the request of a particular

 4     individual?  That's not there, is it?

 5        A.   It doesn't say here that this was done exclusively at the

 6     request.

 7        Q.   Well, General, it doesn't say it's at their request at all.

 8        A.   I said - perhaps you didn't hear me right - but I said that it

 9     doesn't say, the words are not there, "at their request."  And if you

10     allow me, in paragraph 2 there's a reference to paragraph 1, where it is

11     stipulated that the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army shall organise and

12     keep separate records.  And then it goes on to list all those things.

13     And in paragraph 2 these people are referred to specifically, or, rather,

14     in paragraph 1, the second passage.

15        Q.   Right, because I want to talk about paragraph numbered 2 now.

16     The second part of paragraph 1 referred to the category of people

17     referred to in the first part of paragraph 1, didn't it?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   All right.  Perhaps -- let me do this a little simply.  I asked

20     you a clumsy question, General, and we've already covered this ground.  I

21     apologise.  The first part of paragraph 1 identifies a certain group of

22     people, doesn't it?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   The second part of paragraph 1 says what is to happen to that

25     category of person, doesn't it?

Page 10659

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Paragraph 2 relates to all other people not in that category,

 3     doesn't it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And in respect of other professional servicemen of the

 6     Yugoslav Army, the General Staff is under an obligation to enable them to

 7     be dispatched, assigned, or transferred, but at their request as well as

 8     with the approval of the head of the personnel centre?

 9        A.   Sir, the question that you've just asked me calls for an

10     explanation on my part.  These are persons, as you have said yourself,

11     are not listed, there's not an exhaustive list of those people in the

12     first passage of paragraph 1.  These are people who want to voluntarily

13     join the VRS or the SVK who are not from the territory of

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina or Croatia.  And it says here "at their request."

15     This is considered to be their personal request but with the approval of

16     the superior officer from the personnel centre.  The reference here is to

17     the personnel centre through which the service status of that person is

18     regulated.

19             And furthermore, as you can see, it is reiterated that they shall

20     be dispatched, assigned, transferred, or appointed to the appropriate

21     personnel centre, echoing what is written in the second passage of

22     paragraph 1.  So, again, the same things are valid for those people that

23     we saw in paragraph 1.

24        Q.   The difference being the inclusion of those three words "at their

25     request"?

Page 10660

 1        A.   Well, this speaks to the fact that the other people who wanted to

 2     join those armies did that on a voluntary basis.  If you say "at their

 3     request," it means that they did it voluntarily; that's what they wanted.

 4     But if you allow me, sir, not a single person, according to what I heard

 5     from my predecessor, that was until 1998, did not go to the

 6     Republika Srpska army and the SVK without first furnishing a written

 7     statement indicating that they accepted the transfer.  There were many

 8     volunteers from both categories in paragraph 1 and in paragraph 2 who

 9     personally requested to go and to join the chain of command of those two

10     armies, the Republika Srpska army and the Serbian Krajina army.

11        Q.   If somebody in paragraph 2 did not wish to go to either of these

12     two armies, was their service terminated, or did that just apply to those

13     people in paragraph 1 who refused to obey a transfer order?

14        A.   Let me say this again.  In paragraph 2 we're talking about

15     persons that are not defined in paragraph 1.  Nobody's forced to report.

16     If they report that they want to go there voluntarily, their status is

17     regulated as is stipulated in this order.  If they don't want to do that,

18     nobody's going to chase them and make them go.

19        Q.   These are the people in paragraph 2 you're talking about?

20        A.   Two, yes, paragraph 2.

21        Q.   Okay.  I want to look very briefly, General, at paragraph 3.  And

22     you will see that the order requires those who were dispatched, assigned,

23     transferred, and appointed from either paragraph, 1 or 2, to carry out

24     their professional duties in accordance with the special work-plan of the

25     personnel centre.

Page 10661

 1             Now, I take it that this is not a reference to the work-plan of

 2     the personnel centre comprised of 10 or 12 individuals?

 3        A.   The 30th or the 40th Personnel Centres had their programme, their

 4     tasks, and their purpose.  The main purpose was to record and to regulate

 5     the service status -- well, it -- it's a reference to those personnel

 6     centres.  Let me remind you, if you allow me, sir, may I?

 7        Q.   Just pause for a moment, General, because I think we're at

 8     cross-purposes.  The term I want you to focus on is "work-plan" not

 9     "personnel centre," all right?

10             Whose work-plan is being referred to in paragraph 3?

11        A.   Let me be quite specific.  The work-plan of the personnel centres

12     that the Chief of the General Staff would establish later, because in

13     passage 2 of paragraph 1 there's a reference to the personnel centres

14     that will be established, and that's why I asked you to let me explain

15     what this is all about.

16        Q.   All right, General, let me ask you this question:  Whose

17     work-plan is being contemplated in paragraph 3?

18        A.   Let me repeat once again.  Later on, the 30th and the

19     40th Personnel Centres, as they were established later on by the order of

20     the Chief of the General Staff.

21        Q.   And can you help us with what those work-plans -- what sort of

22     things did those work-plans provide for?

23        A.   I asked you -- and thank you very much to mention Article 53 on

24     the Law on the Yugoslav Army.  The whole of paragraph 3 is not shown

25     here.  Could you please show me the next part of this order, because you

Page 10662

 1     cannot -- you have to see it in its entirety.  You can see that it says

 2     here:

 3             "Throughout this period, these individuals shall retain all the

 4     rights pertaining to their rank and qualification and retain the salary

 5     they had in the post they occupied before the current assignment or they

 6     shall receive the salary envisaged for the new post, whichever is more

 7     favourable ..."

 8             You can see in this last sentence "or ... for the new post,

 9     whichever is more favourable."  So if a person in the VRS or the SVK,

10     pursuant to a special order, was appointed to a higher post, then this

11     post will be taken into account in terms of his status.  And that is why

12     the work-plan is defined here.  The work-plan is to keep records of all

13     those persons, any changes in their status, any appointments or

14     assignments that occur in the two armies.

15        Q.   All right.  Let me look at this from another direction, General.

16             MR. THOMAS:  Can we please have P2113 on the screen.  And if we

17     look at page 2 in both versions, please, Mr. Registrar.

18        Q.   General, you'll probably be familiar with these sorts of

19     documents.  They are -- or this is one of the orders transferring

20     officers to the --

21        A.   Could you please zoom in a little bit.

22        Q.   This is one of many orders transferring officers to the

23     30th Personnel Centre.  Do you recognise that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Let's take an example.  And there's a well-known one on page 3 of

Page 10663

 1     the English and page 3 also of the B/C/S, Dragomir Milosevic.

 2             And when you've had a look at the full screen, sir, I'll ask your

 3     indulgence for a moment while we put the English version on the screen

 4     for Their Honours.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  And if we just scroll down a little bit in the

 7     English, Mr. Registrar.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   But, General, while Their Honours are looking at this part of the

 9     order, can you confirm for me that, by this order, Dragomir Milosevic is

10     transferred and appointed as per service requirements effective

11     10 November 1993 to the 30th Personnel Centre, specifically command of

12     the infantry corps.

13        A.   Sir, with all due respect, this order is one in a series of

14     orders that regulate the status and are issued in order to harmonise the

15     earlier set of orders issued before President Lilic issued his order.

16     Look at the right-hand side where it says "date," the

17     10th of November, 1993.  What does it mean?  It means that before this

18     date that person had already been dispatched under the Article 217 of the

19     Law on the Armed Forces, and now this is being harmonised in order to

20     ensure that this person may enjoy certain entitlements under the order

21     and a new law.

22        Q.   General, I'm sorry; you misunderstand me.  But it is exactly this

23     order of transfer that is contemplated by President Lilic when he orders

24     that certain individuals be transferred, assigned, appointed to certain

25     posts, the paragraph we were looking at in the previous exhibit,

Page 10664

 1     contemplates this kind of order, does it not?

 2        A.   You mean the new order of the president?

 3        Q.   Yes.  The order we were just looking at --

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   -- authorised the formation of personnel centres and said that

 6     certain people would be assigned through these personnel centres, didn't

 7     it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And so the result of that is first of all we have personnel

10     centres being established and secondly we have orders such as the one

11     that we are looking at right now?

12        A.   Yes, let me say this once again, sir.  Look at the last sentence

13     in this order for this person.

14             "Shall be transferred as of the 10th of November in accordance

15     with the needs of the service when the establishment was defined."

16             So some changes were made, but it was done only to harmonise this

17     with the new order issued by the president of the FRY.  And let me just

18     give you an additional explanation.  If this order is not harmonised in

19     this manner, this person would not be able to enjoy all the entitles that

20     are guaranteed by President Lilic's order.

21        Q.   We understand, General.  What I'd like to do, please, is go back

22     to P731, paragraph 3.

23        A.   Yes, paragraph 3 is quite clear to me.

24        Q.   All right.  Well, we now know that Dragomir Milosevic is

25     transferred by order 5 -- by 75, from memory, to the

Page 10665

 1     30th Personnel Centre.  Now, that is contemplated by paragraph 3, isn't

 2     it?

 3        A.   Sir, this applies to both me and you.  We both know that the

 4     regulations changed.  That's why we had those two orders when there were

 5     special changes being made to the regulations and a solution was being

 6     sought.  The day this order was --

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   If I may, please --

 9        Q.   No, General, we've spoken about this before.  Please listen to my

10     question, answer only my question.  There's an order contemplated by

11     paragraph 3, yes or no?

12        A.   Once again, I can't answer yes or no.  I could say both yes and

13     no.  Yes in terms of being co-ordinated with this order so that now the

14     new regulations he could exercise his status-related rights.

15     Nevertheless, he was transferred or dispatched, received a transfer under

16     the previous set of regulations, whereas now the new regulations are to

17     be applied.  I think I'm being extremely specific in my answer.  Can you

18     please go down to paragraph 2 of this?  Why exactly is this done?

19        Q.   General, pause.  Let's start this again.  I'm looking at the

20     first part of paragraph 3, the first part of which reads:

21             "While performing their duties following the order on dispatch,

22     assignment, transfer, and appointment to a post at a personnel

23     centre ..."

24             My question is this:  Is the order we have just looked at an

25     order an dispatch, assignment, transfer, and appointment to a post at a

Page 10666

 1     personnel centre?

 2        A.   Yes --

 3        Q.   Pause.  Pause.  So Dragomir Milosevic has now been transferred

 4     and appointed to a post at a personnel centre; and now that he has been

 5     so transferred, he needs to perform his duty in accordance with the

 6     special work-plan of the personnel centre, doesn't he?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   So what exactly -- again, I come back to my question.

 9     General Milosevic would not have been sitting in the personnel centre

10     carrying out status-related financial or accounting duties, would he?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So whose work-plan?

13        A.   Sir, Mr. Prosecutor.  This is not about carrying out tasks in a

14     unit or an institution in which a person's service situation is

15     regulated.  This is about the work programme of personnel centres,

16     meaning record keeping and regulating one's service status.  That is the

17     work programme of a personnel centre.  It is not something for the

18     Main Staff of the VRS.  These are entirely different rules on the use of

19     units, a plan being drawn up for that, and everything else.  This is a

20     special programme of a personnel centre, the 30th or the 40th.

21             And paragraph 2 refers to item 3, paragraph 1.  Throughout -- or

22     rather, the service situation was regulated there; throughout his time

23     there, he exercises certain rights; and then there's a list of what

24     rights and entitlements.  Please bear one thing in mind, this paragraph

25     must be seen within a proper context and not separately.

Page 10667

 1        Q.   All right.  General, Dragomir Milosevic would have carried out

 2     his duties in accordance with the orders and under the command of the

 3     commander of the VRS once he had been appointed to the

 4     30th Personnel Centre?

 5        A.   He was not appointed to the personnel centre.  He was sent or

 6     seconded to the VRS through the 30th Personnel Centre, and that is

 7     something that the personnel centre does, and that is part of its

 8     programme.

 9        Q.   General, the 30th Personnel Centre was established because there

10     was no authority to send somebody out of the FRY in these circumstances,

11     so the order was to the 30th Personnel Centre because the rationale was

12     that this was garrisoned at Belgrade and therefore within the FRY.  We

13     have seen this in the documents that you and I have reviewed already.  He

14     was appointed to the 30th Personnel Centre.  From there on, he was

15     assigned posts by the commander of the VRS or the Main Staff of the VRS

16     as required; is that correct?

17        A.   Once again, he was not assigned to the personnel centre.  There

18     are no two personnel centres, there is only one -- or rather, two, the

19     30th and the 40th.  But assignments, transfers, secondments, all of this

20     is done through that centre and only ever done by a group of between

21     10 and 12 men.  Any assignments, any regulating service situations or

22     service statuses, is something that superior officers do or whoever

23     outranks him under the laws of Republika Srpska and the

24     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

25        Q.   All right, General.

Page 10668

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Can we see document P2817, please.

 2        Q.   We'll move on to a different topic of discussion.

 3        A.   I'm sorry.  Could we zoom in, please.

 4        Q.   Now, General, you spoke last week of a very difficult period and

 5     your time at the MOD when the salaries to VJ officers serving in the VRS

 6     were stopped, and that was during sanctions imposed on the RS in

 7     August 1994 to put pressure on the RS to accept the Contact Group plan.

 8     Do you recall that testimony yesterday?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, the stopping of salaries caused an enormous problem, did it

11     not, not just for the families who dealt with you but for the servicemen

12     and officers in the VRS?

13        A.   The very livelihood of the families of persons serving in the VRS

14     and the SVK was at risk.  These men themselves were not really facing the

15     same risk in terms of survival or subsistence.  Their families were

16     affected more than anyone else, and I was telling you about all the

17     trouble that I was facing because I was the person in charge of sorting

18     all this out, although Article 58 of the --

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I think we have an answer to my question

20     in there.  The --

21        A.   Thank you.

22        Q.   It was important to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia that the

23     international community understood that the FRY was serious about its

24     sanctions imposed on the Republika Srpska, wasn't it?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10669

 1        Q.   But the stopping of salaries created a very serious problem,

 2     didn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And this problem was ameliorated by contacts between the

 5     commander of the VRS, General Mladic, and the Chief of the General Staff,

 6     General Perisic.  Were you aware of that?

 7        A.   No.  I was in the system as status-related issues administration.

 8     I wasn't at General Staff myself.

 9        Q.   So at the MOD you were unaware that steps were being taken for

10     money to go from the General Staff of the VJ to the VRS to cover salaries

11     for officers who were members of the VJ?  Were you unaware of that at the

12     time?

13        A.   No, I was not aware about the contacts, but I did ask the defence

14     minister, I was one of his subordinates, to use his power and exercise --

15     exert pressure on the Supreme Defence Council and the prime minister in

16     order to overcome this situation and in order to secure the livelihood of

17     those men's families because they had nowhere to go.  If this opportunity

18     was crushed, their very lives would have been at stake.

19        Q.   No, I think we all understand that, General.  Without a salary, a

20     family cannot survive; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Looking at document that is on the screen at the moment --

23        A.   I'm sorry, could we zoom in a little, please.  I can't see.

24     That's fine now.  Thank you.

25        Q.   We have a -- let us know once you've had the opportunity to read

Page 10670

 1     it, sir, and I'll have the English version on the screen put up for

 2     Their Honours.

 3        A.   Could we please have the header pulled down because I can't read

 4     it.  And slowly, please.  Thank you.  It's all right.  We can pull it up.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Can we have the English

 6     version on the screen, please.

 7        Q.   All right.  We can see from the first -- from the heading of the

 8     letter or the first paragraph of the letter that it is regarding the

 9     abolishment of salaries and the difficulties that this is causing and the

10     fact that these difficulties are causing a situation where attention is

11     unnecessarily drawn from combat tasks, presumably combat tasks of the

12     VRS.  Correct?

13        A.   Yes, that's what the text says.

14        Q.   Now, General Mladic in sending this report to the VRS Main Staff

15     advises that in the last few days - and I'm looking at paragraph

16     number -- numbered paragraph 3 -- sorry, 2 and 3.  All right.  You can

17     see there that there are meetings with the VJ in order to solve this

18     problem with salaries.  You see that?

19        A.   Paragraph 3, yes.  It's misspelled, "janja dana."  It's not quite

20     clear what it's supposed to mean.  But can you please show me who signed

21     this document?

22        Q.   Certainly.

23             MR. THOMAS:  If we could go to the last page, please.

24        Q.   Do you recognise General Mladic?

25        A.   I'm sorry, but I can't see -- Ratko Mladic, yes, no signature

Page 10671

 1     though.

 2        Q.   Well, we have it as logged, don't we?

 3        A.   Fine.  Can be considered as that.  Still, what I'm saying is

 4     there's no signature.

 5        Q.   Yes, you're correct, sir.

 6             If we go back to numbered paragraph 2 on the previous page,

 7     you'll see there that General Mladic refers to meetings with the VJ in

 8     order to solve this problem and also a request put in to the

 9     Chief of the General Staff of the VJ to solve the salary issue as soon as

10     possible as it was the case with the other VJ members.  Do you see that?

11        A.   If I may just correct you, it's not about VJ members, it's about

12     VRS members.  Do you think I'm right about that?

13        Q.   Well, I might have a different translation, sir.  If you look at

14     the last -- can you read for us in your language what numbered

15     paragraph 3 says?

16        A.   These "janja."  I think what that's supposed to mean is these

17     days.  "S-h-o," probably -- probably -- well we did - that's my

18     assumption, I'm sorry - address the General Staff of the VJ with a

19     request to deal with the salary problem in a successful manner.  The same

20     as the remaining members of the VJ, so the VJ, my apologies.

21        Q.   All right.

22             You haven't seen this document before I take it?

23        A.   No one ever showed me nor was this my document.  I was in the

24     defence ministry; I was part of the chain of command of the defence

25     ministry.  It's 1994 we're talking about, or rather -- sorry, I think

Page 10672

 1     this is the 14th of November, 1994, isn't it, this document?  I've never

 2     seen this document.  But you required that I provide an explanation of

 3     the document, didn't you?

 4        Q.   No.  I simply asked you, sir, if you'd seen this document before.

 5     And you said you hadn't, and that's fine.  I'll move to my next question

 6     which is:  Do you know why --

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Do you know why General Mladic addressed this concern direct to

 9     the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please.  Because of

12     what the witness read -- I'm looking at the English, I'm looking at the

13     document, and I see General Mladic is here addressing the General Staff

14     of the VJ.  There is no mention here of the Chief of the General Staff of

15     the VJ.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Sorry, I'm looking at -- my friend is quite right.

18     My friend is quite right.

19        Q.   Do you know why General Mladic addressed these concerns to the

20     General Staff of the VJ?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In light of the previous answer, I

23     really believe, unfortunately, I have to say Mr. Thomas is asking the

24     witness to speculate.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

Page 10673

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Well, if the General doesn't know, sir, he can tell

 2     us.  He's testified a lot, sir, on the payment of salaries.  I'm simply

 3     asking why on this issue of salaries the approach is being made direct to

 4     the General Staff.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Proceed.

 6             MR. THOMAS:

 7        Q.   General, can you tell us why General Mladic would be addressing

 8     his salary concerns direct to the General Staff of the VJ?

 9        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't there.  I don't know.

10        Q.   Well, we know that as a result of this approach the sum of

11     500.000 dinar was paid, and I want you to look, please, at document

12     P2770 --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object.  The 500.000 dinar document

15     bears an entirely different date and no relation to this one.  I think

16     the Prosecutor is now trying to build up a theory about this that simply

17     doesn't hold water.  If we display both documents side by side, you will

18     see that the dates don't coincide and in fact don't corroborate what

19     appears to be the Prosecutor's theory.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would it about your position, Mr. Lukic, that for

21     the documents to be related they must bear the same date?  That they

22     couldn't about related even if they were written on different dates?

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we should have the witness

24     leave the courtroom for this discussion so that I could present my

25     argument about this.

Page 10674

 1             Nevertheless, it appears to be the OTP's theory that the 500.000

 2     dinar document is a consequence of this document and the talks between

 3     General Mladic and the VJ General Staff.  I certainly do not wish to

 4     testify here, and I'll about offering no further comments, but I believe

 5     Mr. Thomas can correspond.  It is because of the witness's presence that

 6     I do not wish to offer any further comments.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  My learned friend has offered very few comments on

 8     the subject, Your Honour.  I was going to do no more than put the

 9     document to the witness and get him to comment on specific parts.  I note

10     the time, Your Honours, that would be a process which, regardless of how

11     we were to proceed, would take some time.

12             I wonder if now would be an appropriate time to stop.  We will

13     begin again tomorrow, and I'll begin at the last document that we were at

14     so that if there's any objection, that can be dealt with easily tomorrow.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think we must remember tomorrow to begin not at

16     the last document you had but at the fact that there is an objection on

17     the table.  We've got to deal with that objection.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Well, in that case, can I suggest we deal with it

19     now, sir.  It will only take a moment to deal with the objection.

20     Unless -- I'll discuss it with my learned friend, sir.  We can -- we

21     can -- we might resolve it.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             We'll take a -- Mr. Nikolic, you are supposed to come back here

24     tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the morning, same courtroom.  I still remind

25     you that you may not discuss the case with anybody until you are excused

Page 10675

 1     from further testifying.  Okay?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 4             The matter stands adjourned to tomorrow, 9.00 in the morning,

 5     Courtroom I.  Court adjourned.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day

 8                           of March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.