Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10761

 1                           Wednesday, 10 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

12     the day, starting with the Prosecution, please.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, General.

14     Good morning to everybody in and around the courtroom.  Barney Thomas,

15     Bronagh McKenna --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             MR. THOMAS:  -- Dan Saxon, and Carmela Javier for the

18     Prosecution.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas.  And for the

20     Defence.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

22     morning to all the participants in this case.  Mr. Perisic will be

23     presented today by Novak Lukic and Boris Zorko.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

25             Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

Page 10762

 1                           WITNESS:  STAMENKO NIKOLIC [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning.  Just to remind you once again that

 5     you're bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your

 6     testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the

 7     truth.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic.

10             Mr. Lukic.

11             I see I'm being called Judge David in the transcript.

12             MR. LUKIC:  May I proceed?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.  Once I said yes,

14     Mr. Lukic, then it's up to you.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, once again good morning.  Now I

18     will try to stick to my word I gave you yesterday so we will try to be as

19     quick as possible so that you can return to your family today.

20        A.   Thank you very much.

21        Q.   Mr. Lukic, I would like to ask some questions that follow from

22     the questions and your answers provided to Mr. Thomas.  I will try to

23     clarify certain things.  On Monday he asked several questions regarding

24     the military budget, and the portions of the military budget going for

25     the MOD or the army, respectively.  Do you remember that?

Page 10763

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   He also put it to you that from that pie, so to say, called the

 3     military budget, some 95 per cent went for the Army of Yugoslavia and

 4     5 per cent for the MOD.  And you said that the ratio was probably

 5     85 per cent for the army and 15 per cent for the MOD.  Do you remember

 6     that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   He also put it to you that once the military budget or the

 9     portion for the Yugoslav Army was approved on a daily basis, it was

10     allocated through the accounting centre.  Do you remember that?

11        A.   Yes.  I apologise.  It's not the accounting centre of the army.

12     It is the accounting centre of the MOD.

13        Q.   Well, this is what I wanted to clarify first of all.  So the part

14     of the military budget allocated for the army, how was that disbursed?

15     How was that distributed, so to say, in plain language?

16        A.   Now, this is a technical issue, the distribution of the funding

17     where it is kept and so on, but we are here talking about the accounting

18     per se.  If you allow me to remind you of what we talked about earlier,

19     the accounting and budgeting administration of the Federal Ministry of

20     Defence, which is an independent administration directly responsible to

21     the Federal Minister of Defence, has as one of its main tasks to prepare

22     the rules on financial business of all the units in the army and in the

23     MOD, but now we are talking about the methodology and ways in which

24     monies were distributed.  So in order not to go into these technical

25     issues, whether it was a pie, as you say, or whether it was done in

Page 10764

 1     another way, it all depended on whoever was competent for a particular

 2     task, for the execution of a particular task.  And please allow me just

 3     to remind you of yet another thing that we need to clarify.

 4             The role of these two administrations, so I'm talking about the

 5     administration for systemic and status-related issues.  According to the

 6     Article 85 of the relevant regulation, this particular administration is

 7     mentioned as the administration in charge of monitoring the payments of

 8     salaries.

 9        Q.   We will come to that in a second.  Hold on.  We will look at

10     certain documents, and I will ask you to comment, but let us take it

11     step-by-step.

12             When asked by Mr. Thomas, you also said that when we are talking

13     about the portion of the military budget going for the army,

14     approximately 65 per cent went for salaries and pensions.  So my question

15     is as follows:  Did the Army of Yugoslavia have anything to do with the

16     distribution of pensions?

17        A.   Mr. Lukic, one additional explanation.  The only institution

18     responsible for pensions was the fund, so-called SOVO.  This was the

19     acronym, and we used it.  This was the fund that was in charge of

20     calculating and distributing pensions.  The General Staff of the

21     Yugoslav Army had nothing to do with the pensions.

22        Q.   Could you please tell us approximately of these 65 per cent of

23     the military budget that went for pensions and salaries, what was the

24     portion that went for pensions approximately?

25        A.   Given the number of pensioners and the number of active members

Page 10765

 1     of the military service, it was approximately 40 per cent for pensions

 2     and the remaining amount for active servicemen, but this is very

 3     approximate.

 4        Q.   This is what I asked you.  Also, Mr. Thomas put it to you on the

 5     same day that the VJ controlled war reserves.  My question is as follows:

 6     To which particular body was the directorate for war reserves

 7     subordinated to?

 8        A.   It was directly subordinated to the federal government.

 9        Q.   What was its main task?

10        A.   Its main task is clear from the very name of this directorate.

11     So it had to provide funding, which was also visible in the budget, and

12     if requested by the General Staff and the ministry, it had to provide

13     different reserves.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go into private

15     session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could the Chamber please move into private

17     session.

18     [Private session]  [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Could we please see the Exhibit P756

22     on the screen.  These are minutes from the 25th session of the

23     Supreme Defence Council.

24        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I do not have a paper version, but I believe it will

25     be legible enough, and if necessary, I can read it out for you.

Page 10766

1        A.   Okay.

 2        Q.   So as I said, this is page 1 of these minutes.  The session was

 3     held on 30th of August, 1994, and if we can now see page 3 in B/C/H.  I

 4     believe it's also page 3 in English.  I need conclusion number 7.  So

 5     this is at the very end of this document in both language versions, at

 6     the last page.

 7        A.   I can only see item 1.

 8        Q.   Hold on just a second.  We will wait for the English version as

 9     well.  So as I said, item number 7.

10             So, General Nikolic, these are the conclusions adopted by the

11     Supreme Defence Council following this session.

12             In item 7, we can read as follows:

13             "In order to maintain the requisite level of combat readiness of

14     the Army of Yugoslavia, it is essential within the limitations of the

15     funds approved by the federal budget, to secure a more regular and steady

16     flow on funds for the army and an additional 35.5 million dinars.  The

17     salaries of members of the Yugoslav Army shall be regularly harmonised

18     with those in other sectors of the society."

19             And the following paragraph reads as follows:

20             "The federal ministry of defence shall regularly inform the

21     Supreme Defence Council at its sessions about the implementation of this

22     task."

23             It follows from this document -- can you tell us, Mr. Simic

24     [sic], what follows from this document?  Who was in charge of salaries

25     for members of the army?

Page 10767

 1        A.   Well, the last sentence clearly says that the Federal Ministry of

 2     Defence shall be responsible for providing money for the salaries.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  While we are in a private session, could we please

 4     have a look at the document P749.  This is also a document that is under

 5     seal.  These are minutes from the 36th session of the Supreme Defence

 6     Council.

 7             This is it.  On the screen we can see the minutes from the

 8     36th session of the Supreme Defence Council held on the 12th of May,

 9     1995.

10             Could we please take a look at page 5 in B/C/H.  I would like to

11     see conclusion number 5.  I believe it is also page 5 in English.  So

12     item number 5.  That's the one.  Can we just see it in English as well.

13     It is probably on the previous page in English.  I apologise.

14             Once again, this is a conclusion of the Supreme Defence Council,

15     and it reads as follows:

16             "Secure a regular inflow of funds.  The federal government shall

17     take care of this matter not later than in the course of next week.  As a

18     part of this, secure funds for the payment of salaries to members of the

19     Army of Yugoslavia."

20             How do you read this conclusion of the Supreme Defence Council,

21     Mr. Nikolic?

22        A.   Item 5 of these conclusions of the Supreme Defence Council

23     clearly says that it is a duty of the federal government, as the only

24     authorised body to do this, to secure the necessary funds for the payment

25     of salaries to members of the Army of Yugoslavia not later than in the

Page 10768

 1     course of the following week, and this conclusion is very clear.  It is

 2     only the federal government that can do it pursuant to its authorities

 3     stipulated by legislation.

4        Q.   Thank you.  While we are still in a private session, we will move

 5     to a different topic, but this is yet another document that is under

 6     seal.

 7             Mr. Thomas asked you, and you said both in direct examination and

 8     during the cross-examination, when we are talking about the period in

 9     which the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had sanctions against the

10     Republic of Serbia, that members of the families who stayed in the

11     territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had very dire problems.

12     Do you remember this?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So you confirmed to Mr. Thomas that these families had really

15     hard times.  So do you just remember that this is what you said?

16        A.   Yes.  I was just waiting for the interpretation to be completed.

17        Q.   So could we please look at the document that we saw previously,

18     P756.  So again this -- these are the minutes from the 25th session of

19     the Supreme Defence Council, and the session was held on 30th of August,

20     1994.  I need conclusion number 5 this time.

21             Page 3 in the B/C/S as well, if possible.  The meeting was held

22     on the 30th of August, 1994.  That is beyond dispute.  That's after the

23     federal government adopted that decision on the introduction of

24     sanctions.  Conclusion number 5:

25             "Military officers currently in Republika Srpska but disagreeing

Page 10769

 1     with the policies of Republika Srpska's leadership and asking to go back,

 2     shall be welcomed back to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."

 3             Have you read that, sir?  My question is --

 4        A.   Yes, I've read it.

 5        Q.   General Nikolic, do you know the members of the VRS who were

 6     handled by the 30th Personnel Centre in fact accepted this invitation by

 7     the FRY's leadership, or did they, in fact, remain in Republika Srpska?

 8        A.   Do you mean the Republic of Serbian Krajina or --

 9        Q.   This is in reference to members of the VRS when the -- the FRY

10     imposed its sanctions on Republika Srpska.  That is when the Contact

11     Group plan had been refused in early August.

12        A.   Yes, I understand.

13        Q.   Do you know if any officers, and if so how many, of the VRS in

14     fact went back to the FRY at the invitation of the Supreme Defence

15     Council as the document states?

16        A.   No.  And I say something else.  We actually conducted analysis

17     and not a single member of the VRS in fact went back to the FRY.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that we don't have any

19     LiveNote, at least not on my screen.  I have no problem pressing ahead

20     though.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.  There -- I don't know how to call

23     these things, but on the screen on the left you do have LiveNote.  You

24     can get LiveNote.  And -- okay.  This is a problem we all have.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  The important thing is the actual

Page 10770

 1     proceedings are recorded.  As soon as that is the case, we might as well

 2     continue.

 3        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, had those officers returned to the VJ, would they

 4     have been receiving salaries throughout that period from the FRY and the

 5     army?  Had they responded to the invitation by the FRY.

 6        A.   This is what I think:  If they'd gone back, they would have had

 7     to receive some salary.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  We can go back into open session,

 9     Your Honours, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   I'd like to bring up another subject, something that actually

16     follows from one of your earlier answers.  P1864.  That's what I think

17     the number is.  It's a document by the 3rd Army following the talks with

18     Chief Perisic about certain officers.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1865.  It appears that I made a

20     mistake.  P1865.

21             [In English] P1865.

22             [Interpretation] There, now we have it.

23        Q.   General, I'm not sure if you remember this document.  Hold on a

24     minute, sir.

25        A.   The print's too small.  I can't see a thing.

Page 10771

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in slightly.

 2        Q.   And then I'll try to jog your memory, General.  It's a list of

 3     officers following the talks with General Perisic, those handled by the

 4     40th Personnel Centre in the SVK and also a list of those officers who

 5     expressed their desire to retire.

 6        A.   Yes, yes, yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Just take it easy, please.  One step at a time.  Mr. Thomas put

 8     it to you based on this document that the officers not wishing to be

 9     handled by the 40th Personnel Centre and then go to the SVK chose as

10     their only other option to retire.  Do you remember that, sir?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Under the Law on the VJ, does a person being sent to a unit have

13     the right to appeal that decision?

14        A.   A person being sent or transferred, and this is something that

15     the Law on Promotions also clearly states, has no right to appeal a

16     decision like that.  The person must comply.  If that is what you had in

17     mind.

18        Q.   The first -- the first question is:  Does this person have the

19     right to appeal?

20        A.   Yes, the person does have the right to appeal.  This is the Law

21     on General Administrative Procedures.

22        Q.   Any person at all, for example, gets a secondment or an order to

23     transfer.  Does that person have the right to appeal that order?

24        A.   Yes, they do.

25        Q.   Does the appeal stay the actual execution?

Page 10772

 1        A.   No, it doesn't.

 2        Q.   Do you perhaps know from the period when you came to the

 3     personnel administration and had under you the 30th Personnel Centre --

 4     so, do you perhaps know that any person who was sent like that through

 5     the 30th or 40 Personnel Centres ever lodged an appeal about an action

 6     like this?

 7        A.   Just a small correction.  When I came there, there was only a

 8     30th Personnel Centre.  The 40th was no longer around.  Based on my

 9     experience, based on my knowledge and any information that I may have had

10     at the time, there wasn't a single person who did that at the time.

11     Quite the contrary, in fact.  All of the persons of their own free will

12     signed these statements to --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down.  Slow down.  The interpreter is having

14     difficulty.  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

16     It won't happen again.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Another question still covering the same subject, and I mean

20     officers now --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Can counsel reframe the

22     question.  The interpreter did not understand the question.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Rephrase your question.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I apologise to the interpreters.

25        Q.   What about any active-duty servicemen?  There is a decision that

Page 10773

 1     is taken on the termination of his service and for that person to be

 2     retired.  Would a person not have the right to appeal that decision?

 3        A.   Yes, that person has the right to appeal this decision before the

 4     Supreme Court, and this is actually included in the legal remedies.  Any

 5     order can be appealed like that.

 6        Q.   The Supreme Court, that is a civilian court, not a military

 7     court; right?

 8        A.   No.  The supreme military court dealing with matters to do with

 9     administrative aspects in terms of regulating these appeals, ruling on

10     them and so on and so forth.  As far as criminal matters were concerned,

11     well, one knows how that is handled.

12        Q.   All right.  Let me move on to another subject.  Actually this is

13     my third subject, something that was brought up by Mr. Thomas.  He was

14     using certain documents as he was examining you about this.  It was about

15     the execution of actual disciplinary decisions adopted by courts in the

16     VRS.

17             Let me first bring back Prosecution Exhibit P2420.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  Microphone, please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, your microphone is off.  You will have

20     to start all over again.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, we have before us a sentence by the military

23     disciplinary court, that attached to the air force and anti-aircraft

24     defence of the VRS.  The date is the 20th of September, 1995.

25        A.   Yes, I see that.

Page 10774

 1        Q.   The Prosecutor wanted to know about person number 2, the second

 2     accused Nedeljko Vujic, holding the rank of major, military post 7272,

 3     Banja Luka.  Can you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, I can.

 5        Q.   If you look at the disposition that is included in this

 6     judgement, it reads:

 7             "Found guilty Nedeljko Vujic --"

 8        A.   I can't see that.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in on the part

10     that says, "Found guilty."  And then the paragraph just under that

11     heading.

12        Q.   It reads that the --

13        A.   I've lost the image on the screen.  I'm sorry.

14        Q.   Let me read that portion for you.  It says in relation to Vujic,

15     right down the middle:

16             "Accused number 2, Nedeljko Vujic, on the 29th of May, 1993, was

17     not authorised to leave his service."

18        A.   I see that.

19        Q.   That is the day Major Nedeljko Vujic left his unit.  That's the

20     date; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we please pull the document up a

23     little to see the heading.  Yes, like that.  Thank you.  Can we please

24     pull the English up as well so the Chamber may see.

25        Q.   The sentence takes effect on the 8th of October, 1995.  That's

Page 10775

 1     what it says, doesn't it?  It's the clause on entry into force; right?

 2        A.   I can't see that.

 3        Q.   It's in the upper right corner where you can see the stamp.

 4        A.   Yes, indeed I do see that now.  Yes, yes, yes, I see that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me just find out.  There are two dates there.

 6     There's the 8th of October, 1995.  There's the 20th of September, 1995.

 7     How do we determine that it takes effect on the 8th of October, 1995?  I

 8     don't know what those two dates mean, and could the witness explain them

 9     to us, please.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Indeed, General.  As a lawyer, can you explain what the date

12     means when the sentence is due to take effect and what is the difference

13     between these two dates?

14        A.   Your Honours, if you look at the heading where it is stated who

15     adopted this decision, it says that it was passed on the

16     20th of September, 1995.  And then on the right-hand side we can see the

17     two stamps on the same page.  You can see that the sentence takes effect

18     on the 8th of October, 1995, and then there's a portion that I can't see.

19     The 8th of October, 1995, and then the Chamber president signed this.

20             Entry into force, what does that mean.  That means that all the

21     deadlines have now passed for any legal remedies or appeals to be lodged

22     and the decision must be executed.  That's what it means if you ask me.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that is about a month of --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Thank you so much.

Page 10776

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Let us move on to another document.  May I just ask you to

 3     remember about this person, Nedeljko Vujic.  The sentence says that he

 4     committed this crime on the 20th of May, 1993, and --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter did not hear the last part

 6     of counsel's question.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreter didn't hear the last part of

 8     counsel's question.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I will have to slow down.  It says that Nedeljko Vujic left the

11     unit, committed the crime on the 20th of May, 1993, and the sentence was

12     passed on the 20th of September, 1995.

13             Now I would like to see another document that you saw previously,

14     Mr. Nikolic, in relation to the same person, but I believe that we need

15     to move into a private session.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's P4241.  I'm not sure whether

17     this document is under seal.  No, it doesn't seem to be, so we can remain

18     in an open session.  So P4241.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, we don't have that number.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  No, no.  P2421.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC:  2421.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Now you saw the document that is issued by the

24     command of the air force and the anti-aircraft defence which was sent to

25     the personnel administration of the General Staff in relation to the

Page 10777

 1     judgement that we saw previously.  So what do we see here?  I will read

 2     it out for you, General.

 3             First of all, we can see that this document signed by

 4     General Velickovic is dated 29th of January, 1996.  Do you see that?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Item 1 here mentions Nedeljko Vujic, lieutenant-colonel.  Do you

 7     see that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   In the previous document he was a major, and here we can see that

10     three years later now he was lieutenant-colonel.  Do you see that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   If we could scroll down to see another portion that Mr. Thomas

13     already showed you, and it relates to Mr. Vujic.  It says the officer

14     mentioned under item 1 --

15        A.   It is difficult to read, but I can hear what you are reading out.

16        Q.   "The officers under numbers 1 and 4 have been in service in the

17     VJ for two or more years.  They have achieved very good and excellent

18     results, and a possible confirmation of this measure would be a pure loss

19     for the air force and anti-air defence of the Army of Yugoslavia."

20             This is what Velickovic says in this document.  And now please

21     let us look at yet another document that you saw previously, and this is

22     P2422.

23             This is a document on the termination of his professional

24     military service issued by the command of the air force PVO of the Army

25     of Yugoslavia.  The date here is the 13th of October, 2005, and we can

Page 10778

 1     see that he will retire with the rank of colonel.  Can you see this?

 2        A.   Yes, I can.

 3        Q.   Question number 1:  Mr. Nedeljko Vujic, from the moment when he

 4     left his unit in the Army of Republika Srpska in 1993 as a major until

 5     the moment when he's retired, has he been promoted within the Army of

 6     Yugoslavia?  Could you see this in these documents?

 7        A.   Yes, from everything you read out, I can see that he was promoted

 8     and he was still in the service.

 9        Q.   On the basis of this document, could you draw a conclusion as to

10     what he did once he left the Army of Republika Srpska?

11        A.   On the basis of these documents, we can see that he went back to

12     his original unit.  So he went back to the command of the air force and

13     PVO.

14        Q.   So on the basis of these documents, can you conclude whether the

15     Army of Yugoslavia respected the decision of the military court of

16     Republika Srpska or not?

17        A.   Absolutely not, because these were two separate systems.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now we will see the second example that Mr. Thomas

19     put to you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you give each other a chance as you speak so

21     that the interpretation can take place.  Don't overlap quickly.  And try

22     to slow down.  Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I understand, Your Honour.

24             I'm not sure whether P2417 is a document that is under seal or

25     not.  If not, could we please look at document P2417.

Page 10779

 1        Q.   This is a judgement regarding the second person.  His name was

 2     Zoran Antic, and you discussed this example with Mr. Thomas as well.

 3             We will enlarge this, and I will read out similar data.  So the

 4     judgement was issued on 23rd of September, 1995, by the military

 5     disciplinary court of the command of the air force and PVO, and the

 6     Prosecutor was interested in the person named under item 2,

 7     Mr. Zoran Antic.  Can you see that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Here we can see that his current whereabouts were unknown, that

10     he was in Srb, and that he was in the VRS since 15th of February, 1993.

11     Can you see this?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   So here we can see the text of the judgement and it says that

14     these were active military servicemen who left the service on their own

15     will, and Antic, Zoran, left the service on 13th of March, 1993 [as

16     interpreted], and never returned.  Can you see this?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   So the disciplinary punishment was pronounced --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. --

20             MR. THOMAS:  Objection, Your Honour.  Just a correction in the

21     transcript, sir, and it may be a translation error.  I'm not certain, but

22     at page 18, line 24, my learned friend referred to the date upon which

23     Zoran Antic left his unit as being the 13th of March, 1993, but I see

24     from the document that's on the screen, at least the English version,

25     that it's 1995.

Page 10780

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Thanks very much.  The transcript will be

 2     corrected.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Thomas.  You're

 4     absolutely correct.  So this was the 13th of March, 1995.  Could we now

 5     look at the following document:  P2419.  [In English] 2419.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Now this is an order of the chief of the

 7     personnel administration of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army,

 8     issued on the 5th of February, 1996, which concludes that the

 9     professional military service of Zoran Antic has been terminated.  At the

10     very end of the document we can see legal remedies, and it says:

11             "This order is final and an appeal may not be filed against it,

12     but an administrative action may be instituted at the Supreme Military

13     Court in Belgrade ..."

14             This is what it says?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   So in the previous cases we -- case we had an example of a person

17     who returned to his unit in the VJ.  On the basis of this document, can

18     you conclude whether this particular person went back to his unit in the

19     VJ or not?

20        A.   I can see this explanation, and in this explanation it is

21     indicated that on the basis of the attached documents it can be concluded

22     that he did not return to his unit to explain his absence from his unit,

23     and therefore he does not deserve any payment.  So he did not return to

24     his unit.

25        Q.   Was it in the interest of the Army of Yugoslavia to pay any money

Page 10781

 1     to persons who did not go back to their units in the VJ?

 2        A.   There was no grounds on the basis of which they could be paid,

 3     but also there was a legal basis for this based in Article 107,

 4     paragraph 1 on the Law on the Army.  So they could not be paid.

 5        Q.   My question was very specific.  Was it in the interest of the

 6     Yugoslav Army to pay persons who did not belong to their units?

 7        A.   Absolutely not.

 8        Q.   Was it in the interest of Yugoslavia to keep such persons into

 9     their -- into its records as if they were their members?

10        A.   Such persons were erased from all the records.

11        Q.   All right.  Could we now please have a look at the document

12     P2413.  This is a different topic that was raised by Mr. Thomas, and it

13     had to do with initiating disciplinary proceedings against persons who

14     came to the Serbian Army of Krajina through the 40th Personnel Centre.

15     We will now see this document.

16             This is an order signed by General Perisic on 9th of November,

17     1995, and in your answer to Mr. Thomas you talked about the contents of

18     the document.

19             My first question is:  Do you know whether in November of 1995

20     the Republic of Serbian Krajina existed at all?

21        A.   Absolutely not.

22        Q.   In November of 1995, was there a Main Staff of the Serbian Army

23     of Krajina?

24        A.   No.  There was no army and no Main Staff.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please move

Page 10782

 1     into private session again.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 3   [Private session]    [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the document

 7     P0 -- 708 on the screen.

 8        Q.   As we can see on the screen, these are the minutes of the

 9     43rd session of the Supreme Defence Council of the FRY held on the

10     29th of August, 1995.

11             Could we please see the following page.  I'm interested in

12     conclusion number 2.

13             Conclusion 2 says that:

14             "Disciplinary or criminal proceedings shall be initiated against

15     professional members of the 40th Personnel Centre for whom there are

16     grounds to believe that they have committed a violation of discipline or

17     a criminal offence."

18             This is a conclusion of the Supreme Defence Council.  We saw the

19     date.  It was in August.  So was this binding for the Chief of the

20     General Staff?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you know, General, I believe you mentioned this in your answer

23     to Mr. Thomas, whether after the Operation Storm and after many people

24     went to the territory of the FRY that certain members of the Serbian Army

25     of Krajina requested to come back to the military service and to be

Page 10783

 1     posted at particular posts within the army?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Before they were appointed to certain duties, did such person

 4     need to be checked?  What would you say?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   At that time, were there military disciplinary courts and

 7     military disciplinary jurisdiction in Krajina after the Storm?

 8        A.   The moment Krajina disappeared, all the military disciplinary

 9     bodies and all other institutions disappeared as well.  So there were no

10     more military disciplinary courts.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go back into an open

12     session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   I'm about to move on to my last set of questions stemming from

19     Mr. Thomas's questions.  He showed you several articles of the Law on the

20     VJ.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to P197,

22     specifically Article 16.  Page 2 in the B/C/S and page 5 in the English.

23     Can we zoom in, please, on Article 16.

24        Q.   Paragraph 1 reads as follows:

25             "Generals and commanding officers performing duties for which the

Page 10784

 1     rank of general has been determined in the establishment shall be

 2     appointed to positions by the president of the republic.  Other officers,

 3     non-commissioned officers and soldiers shall be appointed to positions in

 4     the army by the Chief of the General Staff or a commanding officer

 5     authorised by him, and in the Federal Ministry of Defence by the federal

 6     minister of defence or a commanding officer authorised by him."

 7             Sir, when they talk about being appointed to positions, what

 8     exactly does that mean?

 9        A.   Being appointed to positions means that persons are sent to a

10     particular unit.  A person is then appointed to an establishment post by

11     his own superior officer.  His service situation is then determined, what

12     is his duty, what is his position, and so on and so forth, any other

13     elements affecting that person's salary under the terms of duty.

14        Q.   If we look at this article, it was the defence minister who

15     appointed you when your term began with the defence ministry; right?

16        A.   Yes.  He appointed me.  And may I add something?  The officer in

17     charge of both appointing a person to a general -- to a particular

18     position and generally the -- making an appointment writes up an order.

19        Q.   Do you know who was in charge of that in the SVK and the VRS for

20     as long as the two armies were around?

21        A.   Once a person was sent to serve with those armies, the service

22     situation would be dealt with by the appropriate officers under the

23     regulations of the VRS and the SVK, respectively.  They were now at all

24     practical intents outside the chain of command of the VJ and were part of

25     the chain of command of these other armies.

Page 10785

 1        Q.   You were shown Article 8 of the Law on the VJ by both myself and

 2     the Prosecutor, and you said something about paragraph 2 of that article

 3     talking about the term "service" and what is considered as service.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go to Article 10 of

 5     that same law, which should be on the previous page.

 6        Q.   This article defines what is defined as service relations.  It

 7     has been shown a number of times, therefore, I will not be reading it out

 8     loud.

 9             For as long as those officers were in the VRS, who did they have

10     service relations to, the VRS and the SVK?

11        A.   They had service relations to their superiors in the VRS and the

12     SVK alone.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now move on to Article 171, another article

14     that Mr. Thomas discussed with you.  Rather, 177 and 178.  Those are the

15     two that I'm interested in.  B/C/S reference is page 15, and the English

16     reference is page 45.

17             This was shown to you by Mr. Thomas.  You should have it in front

18     of you, sir.  Mr. Thomas showed you how the law defines various military

19     courts, the first instance and then the higher military disciplinary

20     court.  177 -- 178 states that they'll be established at the General

21     Staff under the [indiscernible] of the army, air force and anti-aircraft

22     defence as well as the navy.  The high military disciplinary court shall

23     be attached to the General Staff.  It's actually quite specific.  It is

24     specifically envisaged by the law; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10786

 1        Q.   This may sound like too easy a question because we were looking

 2     at those documents.  What about the VRS and the SVK?  Do they have their

 3     own military disciplinary courts?

 4        A.   Yes, they did.

 5        Q.   Based on what regulations?

 6        A.   The Law on the Army of the VRS.

 7        Q.   What about the Krajina?

 8        A.   Yes, same thing.  The Law on Defence.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This concludes my re-examination,

11     Your Honours.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

14             Mr. Nikolic, thank you so much, that brings us to the end of your

15     testimony.  We thank you very much for taking the time to come and

16     testify at the Tribunal.  You are now excused.  You may go home.  Please

17     travel well back home.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I keep you a

19     minute or two?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, go ahead.  As long as you don't say anything

21     that --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It won't take long.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing at all, really.  I just

25     wish to thank you.  You, the OTP, and the Defence for giving me an

Page 10787

 1     opportunity to appear in this courtroom in order to tell the truth and

 2     nothing but the truth.  Another thanks goes to you, Your Honours, because

 3     you had to reorganise the entire schedule for this day in order to meet

 4     the requirements I expressed yesterday.  I do wish to thank you yet again

 5     for that.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic.  Once again,

 7     travel well back home.  You are excused.  You are -- you are excused.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just greet the Defence,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second.  Just stand down, Mr. Nikolic.

11     They will greet you in due course just now.  You are now excused.  You

12     may stand down.  We are still in court.  You can't do your greetings.

13             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  We do have a witness lined up.  I do

17     want to ask myself to exchange greetings with Mr. Nikolic.  Therefore, I

18     think this might be a good opportunity for that if we take a break.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We will take a break and come back at

20     quarter to.  Court adjourned.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.11 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  The Defence is ready for our next

25     witness, Mr. Gajic, Branko.

Page 10788

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please be brought in.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3                           WITNESS:  BRANKO GAJIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please make the declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You may be seated, sir, and

 9     good morning to you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Good

11     morning to you, too.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

13                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

15        A.   Good morning, Mr. Lukic.

16        Q.   Will you please introduce yourself for the record.

17        A.   My name is Branko Gajic.

18        Q.   Mr. Gajic, you testified previously in two trials before this

19     Tribunal, and you know about the kind of problem we normally encounter

20     when both persons speak the same language during an examination.

21     Therefore, I would like to ask you to pause each time before you start

22     answering a question.  I'll also do my best to make a pause after each of

23     your answers to give the interpreters a chance to accurately interpret

24     the proceedings.

25        A.   I understand, Mr. Lukic.

Page 10789

 1        Q.   Now that I've mentioned this, can you specify the trials in which

 2     you've testified and on whose behalf you appeared.

 3        A.   Your Honours, I have appeared twice.  The first time was in the

 4     Milutinovic, Sainovic, Ojdanic, Pavkovic et al. trial, and I appeared as

 5     an Ojdanic Defence witness.  I also testified in the case against

 6     Ramush Haradinaj as an OTP witness.

 7        Q.   Mr. Gajic, I will read back to you portions from your CV which I

 8     believe are relevant.  Please specify if the information is correct --

 9     rather, confirm that the information is correct.

10        A.   I understand.

11        Q.   You were born in 1946; right?

12        A.   1944.

13        Q.   You completed the Belgrade Military Academy in 1967, did you not?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15        Q.   Up until 1972, you were engaged on what they term "troop

16     activities"; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Between 1972 and your retirement, you worked with the security

19     bodies of the JNA and later the VJ; right?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.

21        Q.   During your first period there you were with the Guards Brigade;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In the meantime, you had completed your education with the

25     military staff academy in 1978, did you not?

Page 10790

 1        A.   Yes, that's right.

 2        Q.   Also, the General Staff School of the German Bundeswehr in

 3     Hamburg in 1981; right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   Up until 1986, you worked as a clerk in the SSNO's security

 6     administration; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You were then chief of security in a division stationed in

 9     Osijek, Croatia, between 1986 and 1988; right?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   And after that, up until October 1990, you worked as chief of

12     security in the Tuzla Corps in Bosnia and Herzegovina, did you not?

13        A.   Yes, I did.

14        Q.   In 1990, you completed the war academy, which was later renamed

15     the National Defence School, which was the highest body of military

16     education in Yugoslavia at the time; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Between 1990 and 1992, you worked with the security

19     administration as assistant chief and then later chief of the first

20     department.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Between 1992 and April 1994, you worked as chief of the security

23     sector of the 1st Army of the VJ; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Between 1994 and the 31st of December, 2002, you were back with

Page 10791

 1     the security administration as chief of the counter-intelligence

 2     department.  You also worked as assistant chief and deputy chief of the

 3     security administration, and you continued in that position until

 4     April 1999.

 5        A.   Yes, but it wasn't 2001 -- it wasn't 2002, rather.  It was 2001.

 6        Q.   Yes, that's right.  You were, in fact, pensioned off on the

 7     31st of December, 2001; right?

 8        A.   Yes, that's right.

 9        Q.   Over that last period you worked as assistant chief of the

10     security administration, did you not?

11        A.   Yes, that's quite right.

12        Q.   You retired as a general -- major general.

13        A.   Yes, that's right.

14        Q.   You were, in fact, born in the Republic of Croatia, weren't you?

15        A.   Yes.  That's right as well.

16        Q.   Mr. Gajic, could we first discuss what it is exactly that

17     security bodies do, and what is the difference between their remit and

18     that of intelligence bodies, just to put the Trial Chamber in the

19     picture.  What exactly do security bodies in an army do?

20        A.   Mr. Lukic, the fundamental tasks and obligations of security

21     bodies, in the VJ at least, were counter-intelligence protection of the

22     VJ and the country's defence from any activities by foreign intelligence

23     and counter-intelligence services, from terrorist organisations and crime

24     groups.

25             The main task of a military intelligence administration breaks

Page 10792

 1     down as follows:  They organise a gathering of intelligence and

 2     information abroad and not domestically in order to identify any

 3     indicators of a possible aggression against the FRY.  Conditionally

 4     speaking, the security administration might be defined as a defensive

 5     service; and the intelligence administration is, in a manner of speaking,

 6     an offensive service.

 7        Q.   You mentioned counter-intelligence activity and said that this

 8     was something for the security bodies.  Can you please explain that term?

 9     What is it called that?

10        A.   Well, the concept itself suggests an answer.  "Counter" means

11     "against."  An army faces a threat.  Perhaps the army itself, perhaps a

12     threat from abroad, and then we use some measures peculiar to our work

13     and technology peculiar to our work in order to ward off these threats.

14     That is what we call counter-intelligence activity.

15        Q.   I think this applies to both the JNA and the VJ.  What were the

16     relations between the security bodies and the intelligence bodies?

17        A.   There was co-operation, and there was a mutual exchange of

18     intelligence and information.

19        Q.   What sort of information were you sending their way, and what

20     sort of information were they sending your way?

21        A.   Mr. Lukic, we in the military intelligence administration were

22     providing any information that were relevant in terms of the foreign

23     element.  We monitored this foreign element as a potential threat to

24     Yugoslavia's security, whereas they provided to us information that had

25     to do with protecting the VJ as a whole.

Page 10793

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I think the term stated on page 31,

 2     word 22, where it says security organs as military intelligence

 3     administration is not good.  I think we should be using "security

 4     administration," what the security organs are doing, since we'll be using

 5     these terms quite frequently.  I hope the interpreters agree with this.

 6        Q.   Could you please give me an example just for the sake of

 7     Their Honours.  What were you focused at?  What were you interested in?

 8     What was it that you protected, and what was it that the intelligence

 9     administration focused on?

10        A.   Mr. Lukic, we protected -- let me give you an example.  For

11     example, specific plans of preparation and engagement of the Army of

12     Yugoslavia, so war plans.  Furthermore, we protected individuals,

13     officers who were at high positions which were very sensitive positions

14     since they -- they were aware of very many sensitive military

15     information.  So we protected military information.  Furthermore, we

16     protected weapons and equipment which were often subject of attacks or

17     theft.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And intelligence bodies.  You mentioned war plans,

19     for example.  What would it be that the intelligence organs would be

20     interested in?  Whose war plans?

21        A.   Intelligence organs were interested in plans of potential

22     aggressors against Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now take a look at some documents concerning

24     what we've just said.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

Page 10794

 1     comment -- I would like this witness to comment on the rules of the

 2     security military bodies.  Document is D89.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before he does that, at page 32, lines 21 to 22,

 4     the witness says:  "Intelligence organs were interested in plans of

 5     potential aggressors against Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."

 6             From what -- how he described the security and the intelligence

 7     organs, it seems to me that would be a job of the security.  That's

 8     defensive, not offensive.  How would you expect the intelligence or

 9     against to concentrate on spying the weaknesses in the other -- in the

10     enemy and telling them so that they know how to attack?

11             Am I missing something?  Maybe he can explain.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Maybe that would be best in order for me not to provide an

14     explanation.

15        A.   Your Honours, Military Intelligence Service of the Army of

16     Yugoslavia was in charge of setting up its intelligence centres abroad,

17     through which by applying secret methods, so using different technical

18     means they gathered the information that I referred to previously.

19             Secondly, there was also a possibility to legally collect

20     information, because the intelligence administration was a competent body

21     for directing and guiding the work of accredited military representatives

22     of Yugoslavia who worked abroad.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Carry on, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We talked about protection of various plans.  Was it a task of a

Page 10795

 1     security body to protect plans of the Army of Yugoslavia from being

 2     discovered by foreign intelligence services?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And was it a task of the intelligence body to discover the plans

 5     of potential foreign enemies and inform the relevant instances about

 6     this?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now we will take a look at this document.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will invite it in the e-court as a

10     document from 65 ter list of the OTP, 6063.

11             Your Honours, just for your information, and I already discussed

12     this with Mr. Saxon to see how we could resolve this technical problem.

13     So we're talking about rules of service of security organs.  This is

14     Exhibit D89, which we tendered through the witness Raseta, but we only

15     tendered some of the articles.  Now I will ask this witness to look at

16     some other articles.  Mr. Saxon and myself agreed that we might tender

17     this entire document into evidence.  It is not so small, not too large

18     either.  It has some 40 pages.  So once both me and Mr. Saxon are done

19     with all of the articles that we are interested in, it will be up to you

20     to decide whether you want to admit this entire document into evidence or

21     not.  So I would like to start now, and then we will see what your

22     decision will be once we -- once we are done.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you start, just so that we avoid any

24     confusion and any mistakes, you have called this document by two names.

25     You have called it 65 ter 6063.  You've called it D89.  You have told us

Page 10796

 1     that part of it has already been tendered, part has not been tendered.

 2     You're now going to ask this witness to comment on the parts that have

 3     not been tendered.  Certainly, surely, those parts that have not been

 4     tendered could not be part of D89.  So I think it's a misnomer to call it

 5     D89.

 6             Either we're going to look at the new pages and finally agree

 7     that they form part of D89 or give them a different number.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I also raised this with the

 9     secretariat, and I believe it might be best to receive a new exhibit

10     number once I'm finished, and then later on we might put a link between

11     these two exhibits.  I believe this might be the best solution.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's decide that at the time.  For now, let us

13     just make it clear on the record that the pages we are going to look at

14     are not part of D89.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

16        Q.   So this document was written in 1984 and issued by the Federal

17     Secretariat of People's Defence -- or National Defence.  Mr. Gajic, as

18     you know, we are interested in the period after the year 1992.  So were

19     these rules of service of security organs in the Socialist Federative

20     Republic of Yugoslavia applied at the time when General Perisic was

21     Chief of General Staff?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at

24     Article 1.  This is on page 5 in B/C/H, and page 6 in English.  Just a

25     second, please.

Page 10797

 1        Q.   Mr. Gajic, Article 1 is the one you can see on the screen.  Could

 2     you please comment what is described here as "The competence of security

 3     organs."  I will read the second part of paragraph 1.

 4             "Security organs as expert organs take -- carry out security

 5     tasks as described by the law and regulations adopted pursuant to the law

 6     in order to detect and prevent activities aimed at subverting or

 7     disrupting the social order established by the constitution and

 8     threatening the country's security.  If such an activities is carried out

 9     in the armed forces or against the armed forces from within the country

10     or from abroad, and also for the purposes of detecting and protecting

11     activities aimed at breaching the secrecy of the plans and preparations

12     for the country's defence."

13             So what was the subject of protection?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You indicate that you're going to ask to tender

15     this document.  You indicated that it's fairly large.  Can we avoid

16     reading it if we are going to tender it?  Maybe if the witness can just

17     read it quietly and comment on it rather than you reading it into the

18     record and then later tendering it again.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Yes.  You're absolutely right.  And

20     this is in line with your guidelines.  So I will not read it into the

21     transcript.  I will just ask the witness to comment on specific articles.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, in this Article 1 what

23     is important here is that security organs as specialist organs of

24     commands, units and institutions of the Army of Yugoslavia are

25     responsible, and this is the key, to protect military forces if such an

Page 10798

 1     activity is carried out in the armed forces or against the armed forces

 2     from within the country or from abroad.  And then secondly, also for the

 3     purposes of detecting and preventing activities aimed at breaching the

 4     secrecy of the plans and preparations of armed force -- of the armed

 5     forces.

 6             So this is what matters here.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You do not need to read this out, but, rather, comment.  I asked

 9     you what was the subject of protection of the security organs.  Could you

10     answer that in just one sentence?

11        A.   Thank you.  I understood this.  So they protect the Army of

12     Yugoslavia and its preparations for the country's defence.

13        Q.   Could we now see page 6 in B/C/S and page 7 in English, and we

14     will see what were the tasks of the security organs.

15             Articles 6 and 7 of these rules describe the tasks, and they

16     distinguish between two types of activity of the security organs.

17     Article 6 mentions the activities that the security organs are

18     responsible for, and Article 7 describes activities that security organs

19     participate in.

20             Why was this distinction made between these two types of

21     activities of the security organs?  So on the one hand, they were

22     responsible for some tasks; and on the other hand, they participated in

23     some other tasks.

24        A.   Mr. Lukic, well, if we say that the security organs were

25     responsible for some activities, this means that it was only their

Page 10799

 1     responsibility for tasks listed, for example, under item A here, for

 2     detection, tracking and preventing the intelligent activities and other

 3     activities of foreign military intelligence and so on.  So they were

 4     responsible.  And then all other elements of the command, other secret

 5     services, civil secret services, military services, they participated in

 6     carrying out these tasks.

 7             And in Article 7, if I could please have a look at Article 7.

 8        Q.   Just a second, please.  Before we move to the next page, what you

 9     just described under (a), was this the key fundamental task that the

10     security organs were responsible for?

11        A.   Yes.  Under (b) you can also see that they were responsible for

12     the detection and prevention of hostile activities by individuals, groups

13     or organisations against the armed forces.  So it is important to point

14     out that we had to discover secret activities.  So we were not interested

15     in verbal offences, what was uttered.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have a look at

17     the following page, Article 7.  If we could just once again mention what

18     the witness emphasised -- or, actually, this is okay.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Article 7 consists of several paragraphs describing the tasks in

20     which the security organs participated.  You also said this already.  So

21     when we are talking about this paragraph (a), why are security organs

22     participating in this activity rather than being responsible for it?

23     Could you tell us that?  Could you see it -- can you see it?

24        A.   Yes, I can.  Mr. Lukic, security organs participated in this

25     because the praxis had shown, when we're talking about this item (a), and

Page 10800

 1     this is detection and prevention of serious crimes and so on, most often

 2     it was civilians who were involved in such activities, either in an

 3     organised fashion or they perpetrated them individually.  So it would be

 4     different bodies that would be responsible for these tasks, and security

 5     organs simply participated in trying to detect, for example, perpetrators

 6     of thefts.  So they were not responsible for this tasks, but it was the

 7     Ministry of the Interior that would be responsible for such activities.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go to B/C/S page 8 and

 9     English page 9.  Item 10.

10             That's the right paragraph, the one that we see in English.

11             The first thing we see on that page is precisely what I'd like

12     the witness to comment on.

13        Q.   Mr. Gajic, this last paragraph in item 10, what exactly do the

14     security organs do in terms of mobilisation plans, plans for the use of

15     the armed forces?  What is their share in that?

16        A.   Mr. Lukic, within this particular field of competence of the

17     security organs, they participate with two documents.  One is the

18     assessment of the security situation, and the other is the drafting of a

19     counter-intelligence protection plan in terms of mobilisation plans as an

20     attachment to the mobilisation plan.

21        Q.   Article 16, please, B/C/S page 9, English page 10.  Article 16.

22     Could you comment on that, sir?  This is an article that talks about the

23     chain of command.  To put this in the most graphic terms, can you tell us

24     what Article 16 talks about?

25        A.   I'll try to tackle this by using a specific example.  The chief

Page 10801

 1     of the security administration of the General Staff of the VJ is directly

 2     subordinate to the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ in terms of

 3     command and disciplinary responsibility.  That is who he answers to for

 4     his work, and he is also a member of his collegium.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask a question.  What does the

 6     acronym "NVO" stand for?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, "NVO" stands for

 8     "Weapons and military equipment."

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   What does Article 18 say?

12        A.   Mr. Lukic, let me try to give you a specific example of the

13     relations between the army's security organs and the corps' security

14     organs.  The army-level security organ, or to be even more specific, the

15     chief of the security department of the army command in a technical sense

16     is superior to the chief of the corps security.

17        Q.   When we look at this chain of the security organ and they use

18     this term "technical guidance."  Why are they not using the term

19     "command"?  Can a security organ of a higher command exercise command or

20     merely provide technical guidance?  What is the distinction being drawn

21     here?

22        A.   There is a distinction, Mr. Lukic.  That much is true.  The first

23     example I talked about was the relationship between the chief of the

24     security administration and the Chief of the General Staff.  Chief of the

25     General Staff has certain powers to do with technical guidance on a

Page 10802

 1     counter-intelligence basis and he transfers these powers onto the chief

 2     of the security administration, meaning the chief of the security

 3     administration, as a result of that, can only be in charge of

 4     counter-intelligence work of the security organs throughout Yugoslavia,

 5     which entails no command responsibility.  The only command responsibility

 6     is borne by the commander.  The principle thus defined is called

 7     singleness of command.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Unity of command.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   The next thing we're moving on to is methods of work of the

11     security organ.  I want you to comment for me on Article 29, paragraph 3.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  The English reference is page 14,

13     Your Honours; the B/C/S page is 11.  The B/C/S spills over into the next

14     page.

15        Q.   What does this paragraph tell us?

16        A.   Can you please repeat the reference?

17        Q.   I'll read it, because it actually spills over into the next page.

18             "Security organs are obliged to receive -- security organs are

19     responsible for checking the authenticity of any information received and

20     intelligence and to assess the motives and other facts independent of the

21     sources."

22             When we are talking about anonymous tip-offs they are --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters can't see the rest of the text

24     on our screens.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10803

 1        Q.   What do you specifically do in relation to this provision?

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, checking or double-checking information intelligence

 3     is a fundamental principle applied in the work of security organs.  Quite

 4     often intelligence or information can be second-hand or misinformation,

 5     plain and simple, be it deliberate or not.  It is our duty to process all

 6     this information that we receive and check the information for

 7     authenticity, ideally from a number of different sources.

 8             As far as anonymous tip-offs are concerned, or anonymous letters,

 9     we only check whenever we believe there is something involved that in

10     legalese might indicate a well-founded suspicion.

11        Q.   How exactly does one define these crimes against the armed

12     forces?  What are we talking about?

13        A.   Can you please explain?

14        Q.   Sure.  This paragraph -- perhaps we should turn the next page for

15     your benefit, sir.  It talks about anonymous tip-offs.  It says only

16     those will be checked that indicate the commission of serious crimes

17     against the armed forces.

18             When it says "serious crimes," what exactly does that category

19     entail, just for the benefit of the Chamber?

20        A.   Thank you for this explanation.  For example, the -- there is a

21     terrorist action being planned, an attempt at someone's life, an attempt

22     to break into a military depot in order to steal weapons and military

23     equipment, or any other serious crime.

24        Q.   Is crime a criminal offence against the armed forces?

25        A.   No.

Page 10804

 1        Q.   What about the articles in this document that talk about your

 2     service specifically, the security administration?  Later on we'll say

 3     more about how the one over at the General Staff worked.  Article 57.

 4     The B/C/S page reference is 18, and the English page reference is 23.

 5             I will be eliciting your comments on several of these paragraphs.

 6     It's quoted here as the SSNO, security administration.  I don't think

 7     there's any question about that in this courtroom.  The security

 8     administration when the VJ was established.  Let's look at it that way.

 9     Where was it, and who was it subordinated to, and later we'll take it

10     from there?

11        A.   Mr. Lukic, the security administration, once the VJ had been

12     established, was one of the independent administrations attached to the

13     General Staff of the VJ and subordinated to the Chief of the

14     General Staff of the VJ.

15        Q.   Article 57, paragraph 2, is that what we talked about a minute

16     ago, about technical guidance, or as the document states, "Specialist

17     management," as referred to previously in Article 18?

18        A.   Yes, indeed.

19        Q.   Article 64, B/C/S page 19, English page 24.  Mr. Gajic, can you

20     have a look, please, and comment, if you can, on the specific activities

21     of the security administration.

22        A.   Mr. Lukic, throughout the period of the former Yugoslavia and

23     also once the FRY had been established, we continued to have a degree of

24     co-operation with people from foreign counter-intelligence services and

25     agencies.  The co-operation was established pursuant to approval by the

Page 10805

 1     Chief of the General Staff and the presidents of the federal organs.

 2        Q.   There is reference to the SFRY Presidency in that document.  What

 3     was the relevant body later on when the constitution had been adopted and

 4     provided guidance for your work?

 5        A.   The Supreme Defence Council and the president --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last part of

 7     the witness's answer.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreter didn't hear the last part of the

 9     witness's answer, and could we please slow down.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Should I

11     repeat?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Supreme Defence Council -- the

14     approval was granted by the Supreme Defence Council and the president of

15     the FRY.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to wrap up this document,

17     and I think it might be a good idea to tender the document as a whole and

18     have it received, unless the Chamber believes that we would be better off

19     receiving only particular articles.

20                           [The Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, do you have any comments before we ...

22             MR. SAXON:  The Prosecution concurs with the suggestion of

23     Mr. Lukic, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Okay.  Maybe the best way to do it

25     then is to upload into e-court those parts of Exhibit D9 which -- I beg

Page 10806

 1     your pardon, those parts of this document which do not form part of D9 so

 2     that D9 becomes a complete document.  D89.  I beg your pardon.  Thank you

 3     so much.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  That is the course of action that we

 5     shall take, but is this about to be given a new number?  Oh, no, it

 6     isn't.  Oh, fine.  [In English] Okay.  I understood, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Right.  What about the place of the security

 8     administration itself within the general structure of the General Staff?

 9     D200 MFI, the order on the respective remits of organisational units.

10     We'll just be looking at the security administration for the time being.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the English reference

12     for that is -- translation that got in, that ID 1114D.  [In English]

13     Sorry, sorry.  Doc ID 11/0333.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Lukic.  What's the relationship between

15     D200 MFI and this document that you're mentioning now?

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] D200 is the order on the respective

17     remits of organisational units.  You remember we went through that with

18     General Simic and that's why it was MFI'd, because we talked with

19     Mr. Simic about his own organisational unit and with Mr. Nikolic we

20     talked about his organisational unit --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt?  I just want to know whether D200

22     MFI and ID 11/0333 are one and the same document.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  What you have in English is a

24     portion of D200 MFI, but you see page 1 in B/C/S, and if you fast forward

25     to Article 24, you will have both the English and the B/C/S in front of

Page 10807

 1     you.  I'll track the page down for --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is -- what is the number of the document you

 3     are calling?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] D200 MFI --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  -- [In English] is the exhibit, and the rest is

 7     English translation of part of this document.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Fine.  Let's just call it as D200 MFI and

 9     just don't use the other number because it's got to come in both

10     languages if you call it by -- as an exhibit.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.  You may proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 27 in English, if we could see

14     that, please.  I'm sorry, this is in -- page reference in Serbian.

15        Q.   General, this is the document entitled "Order on organisational

16     units of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia."  We will now have

17     a look at --

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we could just see the previous

19     page in B/C/S, please.  No, the next page.  The next page.  I'm sorry.

20     Thank you.  This is fine.  If we could just scroll down a bit.

21        Q.   General, security administration of the General Staff of the VJ

22     in the period after the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia was

23     established.  So there was no more Federal Secretariat, but, rather, the

24     Army of Yugoslavia was set up.  So what kind of organisational unit was

25     the security administration at that time?  Who was it subordinated to?

Page 10808

 1        A.   Mr. Lukic, in the period that you mentioned, the security

 2     administration was one of the independent administrations of the

 3     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia directly subordinated to the

 4     Chief of General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 5        Q.   And was this true of the entire period from 1994 onwards while

 6     General Perisic was Chief of General Staff?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, in this Article 24, we can see what were the main functions

 9     of this administration.  There are several listed here, so we can see

10     here counter-intelligence activity.  Well, I asked you at the very

11     beginning what was the counter-intelligence activity of the security

12     organs.  Can you tell us something about the counter-intelligence

13     activity of the security administration, and let me ask you straight away

14     whether you were at the head of the counter-intelligence department?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   So you are the right witness to explain this.  What was the main

17     task of your department within the security administration?

18        A.   Mr. Lukic, the main task of the counter-intelligence department

19     was detection, monitoring of all -- and prevention of all the factors

20     that could threat the Army of Yugoslavia.  So any activities of the

21     foreign intelligence and counter-intelligence units, terrorism, or crime.

22     So anything within the Army of Yugoslavia or directed towards the

23     Army of Yugoslavia.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the following

25     page.

Page 10809

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we zoom in on the English, please.  It's so

 2     small.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Let me just find the portion that I

 4     would like to read out.  Just a second, please.

 5        Q.   What I'm interested in, I'm not sure whether this is the correct

 6     page in English.  It says:  "Creates and evaluates analysis and

 7     information on intelligence, terrorist and subversive activities carried

 8     out within the Army of Yugoslavia or against the Army of Yugoslavia for

 9     the needs of security organs."

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we please see the next page

11     in English so that the Chamber might follow us.

12        Q.   Can you see this portion, Mr. Gajic, and could you please

13     comment.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is paragraph 2 in

15     English.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, on the basis of

17     collected intelligence and information, department for analysis of the

18     security administration created different analysis and assessments of

19     such information, and on the basis of this they created certain reports

20     which they submitted to the relevant bodies so that they could make

21     appropriate decisions.

22             At the same time, they would pass this information to the

23     security organs of the Army of Yugoslavia so that they would be informed

24     and so that their activities would be guided in this way.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10810

 1        Q.   Who would assess and make analysis at the security administration

 2     which information would be passed on to the military and state

 3     authorities, and which information would be passed on to the lower-level

 4     bodies?

 5        A.   Mr. Lukic, the main decision was made by the chief of the

 6     security administration on the basis of the proposal made by the chief of

 7     the counter-intelligence department, and this was me, and also chief of

 8     security department.

 9        Q.   Let us just say for the sake of the record at the time when

10     Mr. Perisic was Chief of the General Staff, who was the chief of the

11     security administration?

12        A.   During that time chief of security administration was

13     General Aleksandar Dimitrijevic.  Could I also provide one additional

14     answer?  You asked me who would decide which information would be sent to

15     whom.  I need to say that we could also have a different situation when

16     Chief of the General Staff requested some information on certain issues,

17     and even the Supreme Defence Council could request some information.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm now done with this document, so I

20     would kindly ask for this English translation to also be tendered into

21     evidence.  So this is D200, but it still needs to be MFI'd because it

22     hasn't been translated entirely yet.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When we MFI'd this document, it was because it was

24     not translated.  Now you are -- you're saying you have an English

25     translation, but you still want it MFI'd because it is not translated.

Page 10811

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  We still do not have the translation

 2     of the entire document, Your Honour.  The document has some 40 pages.  We

 3     now provided one portion of the translation, but we still do not have the

 4     entire translation.  As soon as we have the entire translation ...

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what does this new translation come under?

 6     What number is it you -- D what?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I will tell you.  This is [In

 8     English] doc ID 1D11/0333.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  That's then -- becomes part of

10     D200 MFI.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Gajic, now we will move from these theoretical considerations

13     to some more practical issues.  I would like to learn more about the

14     functioning of the security department -- security administration when we

15     are talking about the internal structure.  So there was chief of the

16     security administration.  Was there any other body within the security

17     administration?  What was its name, and what was its function?

18        A.   Mr. Lukic, organisationally speaking, security administration was

19     divided into four departments, and also we had another organisation that

20     was called Counter-intelligence Technical Centre that was directly linked

21     to the security administration.  The first department was

22     counter-intelligence department.  I was the head of that department, and

23     I think I explained its function.  The second department was department

24     of analysis.  I believe I also explained its function and its tasks.  The

25     third department was military police department, because the security

Page 10812

 1     administration was also in charge of professional guidelines of the

 2     military police units, provision of equipment for the military police,

 3     training the personnel of the military police, and it was only up to the

 4     commander to decide on the engagement of the military police.  And the

 5     fourth department was the logistics department which also encompassed one

 6     section that dealt with personnel-related issues.

 7             When it comes to the operational and technical centre of the

 8     security administration, this was an organisational unit that dealt with

 9     application of the counter-intelligence work.

10        Q.   Apart from these organisational units, was there any other body,

11     so to say, in which representatives of different organisational units

12     met, and how did this body function?

13        A.   Thank you, Mr. Lukic, for this question.  I left this out.  So

14     there was a collegium of the chief of the security administration.  The

15     collegium was composed of the chiefs of all the departments that I

16     mentioned previously and also the chief of the counter-intelligence

17     operations centre.

18        Q.   How often would the collegium meet?  Was there any rule?

19        A.   Mr. Lukic, the collegium of the chief of the security

20     administration met every Monday, most often after -- immediately after

21     the collegium of the Chief of the General Staff.  So between noon and

22     1.00.  So these were regular meetings, and if necessary, the collegium

23     could be convened also on additional times.

24        Q.   You mentioned the function of the deputy chief of security

25     administration.  Was this a separate position or did somebody hold a

Page 10813

 1     different position and in addition was also chief of -- sorry, deputy

 2     chief of the security administration?

 3        A.   This was a separate position.  The deputy chief of the security

 4     administration replaced chief of the security administration if the chief

 5     was absent, and the counter-intelligence work was obviously the task of

 6     the counter-intelligence department and its chief primarily.

 7        Q.   Would anybody from the security administration participate in the

 8     meetings of the collegium of the Chief of the General Staff, and who?

 9        A.   Mr. Lukic, it was chief of the security administration who

10     attended meetings of the collegium of the Chief of the General Staff.

11     Only if the chief was unable to participate in the meetings of the

12     cleanup then it would be his deputy.  And if neither the chief nor the

13     deputy could attend those meetings then I would attend them.

14        Q.   Did the security administration have any duty officers or duty

15     teams, and could you explain how this duty service was organised?

16        A.   Yes.  The security administration had its duty operative team,

17     the duty operative team of the security administration which consisted of

18     three persons, and they were on duty 24 hours a day.  I can also tell you

19     what were their tasks.

20        Q.   Well, that was my next question.  What was their task?

21        A.   Mr. Lukic, their task was the following:  All the information

22     that they received during a day from the subordinated security organs and

23     all the documents, obviously, they had to compile a daily report on the

24     basis of all of this, which included the most significant

25     security-related data.  And that report was then every morning on the

Page 10814

 1     following day at 8.00 a.m. be submitted to the chief of the security

 2     administration and those of us who were members of his collegium.

 3        Q.   Does this mean that this report was written internally, just for

 4     the security administration purposes, or was it drafted for somebody

 5     else?

 6        A.   Mr. Lukic, this was an internal document of the security

 7     administration, but we also made an extract from that report.  That

 8     extract consisted of some six to seven sentences, not more, and that

 9     extract was taken to the General Staff operations centre, and there there

10     was also a duty operative team and a representative of the security body

11     within that team.

12        Q.   Well, this is what I wanted to clarify now.  We already heard

13     some testimonies concerning the duty operative team of the General Staff,

14     so could you please tell us, what was the relation between the

15     General Staff duty operative team and the security administration?

16        A.   Mr. Lukic, the duty operative team at the operations centre was

17     formed pursuant to an order of the General Staff, and the order also

18     specifies the persons that participated in that duty operative team, and

19     among them was also a representative of the security administration.

20             The duty operative team met every evening at about 9.00 p.m.

21     Most often I was the person that attended the meetings of the duty

22     operative team, and I carried with me that extract, those six or seven

23     sentences containing the most relevant data on what had happened in the

24     previous 24 hours.  So they were representatives of all the different

25     sectors, all administrations, and we would read out those short reports

Page 10815

 1     and discuss them, reports concerning different areas of responsibility.

 2     And after our discussions, we would define what would be entered into the

 3     document of the duty operative team, and that report would be submitted

 4     in the morning to the Chief of General Staff and members of his

 5     collegium.

 6        Q.   Did the security administration, in addition to these daily

 7     reports, submit any other reports to the Chief of the General Staff?

 8        A.   Mr. Lukic, the security administration submitted to the Chief of

 9     General Staff and members of the Supreme Defence Council on a regular

10     basis monthly information, and these monthly information included data on

11     the most significant events and problems during -- that occurred during

12     the previous months.  In addition, the security administration also

13     drafted the so-called problem-related information sheets for the Chief of

14     General Staff and sometimes also for members of the Supreme Defence

15     Council.  I will mention some examples.

16             For example, if we had a large-scale theft of weapons and the

17     perpetrators were unknown, a team of security personnel would be engaged

18     in trying to detect the perpetrators.  So if we discovered who the

19     perpetrators were, on the basis of all of our actions and information

20     collected, we would compile an information sheet and inform the Chief of

21     the General Staff about this.  So how come that this could happen?  What

22     were the problems, the breaches in the security?  Who were the

23     participants in this crime, whether any military personnel participated

24     and we would also propose certain measures.  And obviously it would be up

25     to the chief to decide on such measures.

Page 10816

 1             Thirdly, if I may, there were quite many demands by the Chief of

 2     the General Staff for assessments to be forwarded, as I said.

 3        Q.   The monthly report that you defined as a regular report forwarded

 4     to the Chief of General Staff and the Supreme Defence Council, is that

 5     the same sort of report that is then dispatched to both these addresses

 6     or are two separate reports drafted for that purpose?

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, there was just a single difference between the two.

 8     In the report to the Chief of the General Staff and the president of the

 9     Supreme Defence Council, there was a section covering the military

10     police.  Other than that, they were identical in terms of substance.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have told us no difference, sir.  Your answer

12     says:  "There was just a single difference between the two.  In the

13     report to the Chief of the General Staff and the president of the Supreme

14     Defence Council, there was a section covering the military police.  Other

15     than that, they were identical in terms of substance."

16             So they seem to be identical all the way through.  There's no --

17     you haven't shown any difference at all.  You've told us that the two

18     that go to the two authorities cover military police.

19             Can you give the answer again and try to tell us what the

20     difference is between the report that goes to the Chief of the

21     General Staff and the president of the Supreme Defence Council.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the monthly report

23     sent to the Chief of the General Staff and the president of the

24     Supreme Defence Council, there were two components; the

25     counter-intelligence component and the military police involvement

Page 10817

 1     component.  As for the -- all the other members of the Supreme Defence

 2     Council, no information on the military police involvement was included,

 3     that being the only difference.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this might be a

 7     good time for our break.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is indeed.  We will take a break and come back

 9     at half past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   General, we spoke about those meetings and the security

15     administration, the collegium, the duty operations team, information like

16     that.  In addition to what we have been discussing, were there any daily

17     meetings that were being held by certain individuals in the security

18     administration?

19        A.   Mr. Lukic, there were indeed daily meetings being held, attended

20     by the chief security administration, by me, and sometimes the deputy

21     chief.  These took place each morning.  We would drink coffee and then go

22     on to analyse the daily operative reports that I referred to earlier on.

23             At these normally brief meetings, the chief of the security

24     administration would hand out assignments if there were any to

25     distribute, after which we would try and reach an agreement on what we

Page 10818

 1     would be doing over the course of that day.  At the end of each day,

 2     meaning sometime past 2000 hours, we would meet again to analyse what we

 3     could achieve in terms of covering the assignments discussed that same

 4     morning, and to see whether there were any tasks we were facing for the

 5     following day.  We discussed a number of other issues of present concern

 6     as well.

 7        Q.   I would like to move on to something entirely different.

 8     Mr. Gajic, what about your involvement and that of the security

 9     administration?  Did you know anything about information suggesting there

10     were undercover secret campaigns of people arming themselves prior to

11     1990?  Who exactly -- prior to the break-up of the country, who exactly

12     was arming themselves?

13        A.   Yes, indeed, Mr. Lukic.  I was with the security administration

14     of the team.  The chief of the security administration was

15     General Aleksandar Vasiljevic.  We monitored this, and we tried to

16     uncover any attempts to obtain illegal weapons.  Even throughout the

17     former Yugoslavia that was one of the points on which the security

18     administration focused.  It was quite difficult to monitor these

19     difficulties in what used to be the Republic of Croatia and then in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina as well, and to some extent, I suppose, also Kosovo

21     and Metohija.

22        Q.   What sort of information did you manage to obtain?

23        A.   Mr. Lukic, we came across information that throughout the

24     Republic of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina there were two large-scale

25     paramilitary formations being established.  In Croatia's case this was

Page 10819

 1     the National Guards Corps.  In Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Patriotic

 2     League of Nations, or the National Patriotic League, and this was

 3     something that was done pursuant to decisions taken by the republican

 4     leaderships, Dr. Tudjman in Croatia and Alija Izetbegovic in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  These paramilitary formations were now to be armed.

 6     They were first established in order to enter into armed clashes with the

 7     then-JNA for purposes of breaking away.

 8             We monitored these illegal arming activities throughout 1990, and

 9     particularly in 1991, we managed to uncover about nine large-scale

10     illegal channels through which these weapons were arriving.  Six of these

11     had to do with Croatia, two having to do with Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

12     a single one was, in fact, in Kosovo and Metohija?

13        Q.   Having obtained that kind of information, what exactly did you

14     do?  What steps did you take, and what did that lead to?

15        A.   Mr. Lukic, in Croatia's case, we staged an operation that was

16     conducted by General Vasiljevic as chief of the administration

17     personally.  The operation was called Operation Shield.  During this, we

18     obtained incontrovertible material evidence of illegal weapons coming in.

19     What one needed to do was arrest the perpetrators but there was a

20     political decision that was taken not to do that, to abstain from

21     arresting those people.  This in turn led to the outbreak of war in

22     Croatia back in 1991 and Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992.

23        Q.   Operation Shield, you say.  Was that the operation that involved

24     Spegelj, and was the public duly informed?

25        A.   Yes, that's right.  It was also known as Operation Spegelj, and

Page 10820

 1     the public was duly informed, as well as both the military and political

 2     leaderships.  There was detailed information provided on that as well as

 3     some footage that was shown to the general public in Yugoslavia and

 4     abroad demonstrating that Croatia was preparing for war and obtaining

 5     weapons, although the Security Council Resolutions clearly --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Sorry to interrupt, Your Honours.  I've let this gone

 8     on for a while but I must ask my colleague, please, if he can explain

 9     what is the relevance of this evidence to the issues of this case.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] During this trial the Prosecution has

12     brought up a lot of evidence about the period preceding the eruption of

13     armed conflicts, situations having to do with illegal weapons being

14     brought in, and they talked about the situation before 1992, the

15     existence of local Territorial Defence units and generally all of the

16     three ethnic groups arming themselves.  I think this is relevant

17     primarily in order to demonstrate how the three armies came about, or

18     even six or seven armies, how they came about.  I think this has a direct

19     bearing on some counts in the indictment, especially the criminal

20     responsibility of Mr. Perisic in terms of aiding and abetting.  Then, on

21     the other hand, this has to do with the events that preceded the charges.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We'll allow the question to go on.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I won't press the point any further, but I am going to address

25     the general period.

Page 10821

 1             Can you put us in the right frame, generally speaking.  Operation

 2     Shield, when was its cover blown?

 3        A.   Sometime in late 1991 or perhaps early 1992.

 4        Q.   General, do you have any direct personal knowledge or

 5     professional second-hand knowledge about the situations of the members of

 6     the offices of the JNA in the then still -- the unified and single

 7     Yugoslavia back in 1991 and 1992 in the individual republics?

 8        A.   Mr. Lukic, the situation throughout Yugoslavia, both in a

 9     political and military sense, was quite complex and complicated.  If we

10     look at the situation of the JNA officers, both proper officers and NCOs,

11     the worst place for them to be was Croatia.  They were facing a lot of

12     propaganda pressure and even open threats that sometimes went as far as

13     people being evicted from their flats.  Their wives were being fired from

14     their jobs, and mixed marriages were under particular pressure, for

15     example, in cases where you had a Serbian husband and a Croat wife.  The

16     wives would get lots of pressure to get a divorce, to divorce from these

17     Chetnik officers.  That was the going phrase at the time.  Their children

18     were mistreated in kindergarten, school, elementary schools, secondary

19     schools, universities.  Many of them no longer even dared go to school

20     and the children would, for that reason, remain at home.

21             People were being harassed by telephone, in their homes.

22     Normally this type of harassment would occur sometime between midnight

23     and 4.00 in the morning, and the messages being put across were to the

24     effect of "Go away.  Run back to Serbia.  We'll kill you.  We'll cut your

25     throat," and suchlike.

Page 10822

 1        Q.   Where did you get this information, sir?

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, I have personal experience of this.  It was pursuant

 3     to an order by the chief of the security administration, General

 4     Vasiljevic, that I spent the period between the 1st and 7th of July 1991

 5     in Croatia in order to carry out an inspection.  In fact, I visited or

 6     toured six or seven different garrisons where brigade-level units were

 7     stationed.  I spoke directly to officers belonging to -- to all the

 8     different ethnic groups.  Not just the Serbs there but also the Croats,

 9     the Muslims, and everyone else.  They confirmed this and also shared with

10     me a number of other even more serious incidents, but our time is short

11     and I'm not pressing this any further.

12        Q.   Did cases such as these occur in Bosnia and Herzegovina as well

13     and, if so, when?

14        A.   In Bosnia and Herzegovina, this type of thing emerged at a

15     somewhat later date.  I was chief of security until October 1990, and you

16     can say that things were relatively quiet at this time.  It wasn't before

17     late 1990, when the people's Patriotic League was established as a

18     paramilitary formation, that the first symptoms started to crop up as

19     they had previously in Croatia.

20        Q.   What about the period while Yugoslavia still existed?  Let's talk

21     about 1990 and all the way up until late 1991.  Were there any attacks on

22     the barracks in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, JNA military

23     installations?  What exactly was happening?

24        A.   Mr. Lukic, at the time you specified, in Croatia most of the

25     barracks were under siege or being blocked by paramilitaries.  Therefore,

Page 10823

 1     the communication between officers was quite limited.  They had to be

 2     protected by armed escorts because it was too risky for them to leave

 3     those compounds on their own.  Secondly, sometimes their electricity and

 4     water supplies would be cut off.

 5        Q.   Who was doing this?

 6        A.   The local authorities for the most part, the newly established

 7     ones.  The extremists had now come to power, for the most part belonging

 8     to the leading political party.  I'm talking the most extremist faction

 9     of the HDZ.

10        Q.   And who was it that was having their electricity and water

11     supplies cut off?

12        A.   The barracks, the officers and the soldiers there.  What is

13     particularly noteworthy, if I may add, is that combat-readiness measures

14     had been raised already by this time.  Therefore, the officers and

15     soldiers would spend all their lives around the clock in these barracks.

16     Now, imagine what their situation must have been given the fact that they

17     had no electricity or water in there.

18        Q.   Thank you very much.  Do you have any direct knowledge of any

19     developments in April 1992 regarding the withdrawal of the JNA from

20     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21        A.   Mr. Lukic, I was back with the security administration by this

22     time.  I had been transferred from the 1st Army back to the security

23     administration.  We had an operations duty team, and we received

24     information and some documents to the effect that a clash was in the

25     offing with the army.  Their leadership was behind this, and the former

Page 10824

 1     JNA Territorial Defence had been now transformed into their own

 2     Territorial Defence.  The People's Patriotic League was also readying for

 3     clashes with the JNA.

 4        Q.   I assume you misspoke when you said the former JNA Territorial

 5     Defence.  The Territorial Defence in the old system, what was it part of?

 6        A.   The armed forces.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a 65 ter document from

 8     the Defence list, 65 ter 00381D.

 9             I have a binder here, as a matter of fact, which I forgot to hand

10     over to the witness.  Maybe it might be easier for the witness to

11     consult.  So he might as well keep it there.

12        Q.   Can you see this document on the screen, Mr. Gajic, before you

13     receive the paper version?  Can you see it?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   So this is a decision on the withdrawal of JNA units from the

16     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated 27 April 1992, decision

17     adopted by the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

18     signed by Alija Izetbegovic.

19             First of all, have you seen this document before?

20        A.   Mr. Lukic, I already saw this document on the 27th of April, when

21     it was adopted, because the chief of the security, Colonel Bjelosevic,

22     who was the staff of the Territorial Defence, he was replaced when the

23     new authorities came.  However, he kept some of his competencies and he

24     sent this document to us.

25        Q.   What do you mean by "us"?

Page 10825

 1        A.   To the security administration.  I apologise.

 2        Q.   Under the II, can you please read what it says and comment on it?

 3        A.   Mr. Lukic, in the first paragraph of Article II, members of the

 4     JNA are invited, those that were in the territory of the Republic of

 5     Bosnia and to, Herzegovina join the newly formed forces of the

 6     Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and to place themselves at

 7     their disposal.  And in the second paragraph, it is stated that those

 8     members of the JNA who did not wish to place themselves at their

 9     disposals shall have all their rights guaranteed and that no actions

10     would be taken against them or members of their families.

11        Q.   Did you have any information as to whether JNA officers who

12     joined the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, whether they

13     received any salaries?

14        A.   Mr. Lukic, the largest number of those who joined the

15     Territorial Defence were people of Muslim nationality, and some of them

16     were also of Croatian nationality.  As far as I know, their -- they took

17     it upon themselves to pay out their salaries.

18        Q.   Article III is rather clear.  I would like to take a look at VI

19     and VII.  Could you read those and tell us what was your impression of

20     this entire document when you saw it?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the following page in

22     English, please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, if you allow me, I will

24     comment on Article VI first of all.  If you look at the contents of this

25     article, you can see that it is politically correct, so to say, but this

Page 10826

 1     was written for the sake of the general public.  In the field, however,

 2     the situation went in a rather opposite direction.  So what we knew at

 3     our security administration at the time was that conflict and even an

 4     armed conflict was imminent.

 5             And Article VII is linked to Article VI, and it explains that all

 6     the problems will be resolved between authorised organs of the former JNA

 7     and the state organs of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

 9     into evidence.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

11     please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

13     Exhibit D262.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see on the screen

16     Exhibit D00381.  I apologise.  We already saw that one.  Just a second,

17     please.

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we please see the document

20     from the Defence 65 ter list, 00377D.

21        Q.   General, have you seen this document?  This is a document -- this

22     is the document of the Ministry for People's Defence, Territorial Defence

23     Staff, signed by Mr. Hasan Efendic.

24        A.   Yes, I have seen this document.

25        Q.   Where did you see it?

Page 10827

 1        A.   We received it in the same way in which we received the previous

 2     document.

 3        Q.   Could you please read item 1, and could you please comment.  So

 4     what was your impression of this document once you received it in your

 5     administration?

 6        A.   Mr. Lukic, item 1 says that a complete and full-scale blockade of

 7     all roads in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina was to be carried

 8     out.  So wherever units of the former JNA have begun to pull out materiel

 9     and technical equipment, and this had to be done in direct co-ordination

10     with the Ministry of the Interior.

11             When we received this document, this entire document, you're now

12     only asking about item 1, there was no reason whatsoever to issue an

13     order of this kind, because the Yugoslav Army in the two days between the

14     27th of April when the Presidency made its decision and the 29th of April

15     did not make any step which would call for an order of this kind.  And if

16     I may add, because I was at the security administration at the time, I

17     know that the representative of the federal secretary for defence,

18     Mr. Adzic at the time, was engaged in exchange of letters with Presidency

19     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and these letters had to do with an attempt to

20     resolve issues in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the political level and for

21     the JNA to act in accordance with whatever political solution was decided

22     on.

23        Q.   In item 3, we can see that it was requested to prevent

24     unannounced leaving of JNA units from their barracks without the escort

25     of the MUP.  So did you know that there were attempts made by JNA units

Page 10828

 1     to pull out of their barracks in an unorganised manner?

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, as far as I knew, the bulk of the activities at the

 3     time had to do with logistical issues, so supplying them with food and

 4     other materials necessary.  There were no large-scale movements that

 5     would call for an order of this type.

 6        Q.   In the introduction to this order, it is mentioned that the

 7     property of the Bosnia and Herzegovina started to be plundered by the

 8     former JNA members.  Were you informed about any such activities by JNA

 9     members in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10        A.   Mr. Lukic, we had no such information, and I believe that they

11     simply needed an excuse for war or for a conflict.  They simply needed an

12     excuse for -- to start a conflict with the army.

13        Q.   When you are saying "they," who are you referring to?

14        A.   Territorial Defence, paramilitaries, and their leadership who was

15     informed about all of this, at least some members of the leadership of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask this document to

18     be tendered into evidence, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

20     given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

22     Exhibit D263.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Gajic, do you know whether there were any incidents in

Page 10829

 1     Sarajevo and, if so, what really happened there after the 29th of April,

 2     1992?

 3        A.   Sadly, I do know about this, Mr. Lukic.  There was an attack

 4     of -- by a paramilitary unit called Green Berets against the building of

 5     the JNA in Sarajevo.  On that occasion, the chief of the JNA home, who

 6     was a Macedonian, was gravely injured.  He later died of these injuries.

 7     And several soldiers were also injured.

 8        Q.   When was this?

 9        A.   This was on the 2nd of May, 1992.

10        Q.   And what happened afterwards?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, your question was what happened on the

12     29th of April.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  No, I asked after the 29th of April.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My apologies.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, once the JNA building

16     was attacked, the command decided to send a unit there to provide

17     assistance to the officers and soldiers who were there.  However, they

18     were attacked by the paramilitaries, and again several persons were

19     injured.  Quite a few of them, as far as I remember.  Nobody was killed,

20     but there were many injured persons, and a lot of equipment was

21     destroyed.  Then a unit was sent from the police [as interpreted], but

22     that one also did not manage to get to the JNA building because it was

23     also encountered by paramilitary members who destroyed some of the

24     equipment and again injured some of the soldiers.  And on -- at that

25     point, the idea of any further action was given up on.

Page 10830

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Were there any new attacks in the days to come, and what

 3     happened?

 4        A.   In the following days, Mr. Lukic, the command of the

 5     2nd Military Zone was attacked.  So these are four buildings.  And inside

 6     these buildings there was a number of soldiers and civilians.  That

 7     attack was launched at about noon, and it lasted until 10.00 p.m.  During

 8     this attack, all the four buildings were badly damaged.  The equipment

 9     was plundered and members of the JNA were injured during the attack.

10             On the 2nd of May, we had the gravest incident --

11        Q.   Just a second, please.  Allow me not to forget this.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] At page 68, line 10, the witness

13     actually said "military police."  It was a military police unit that was

14     sent to intervene.

15        Q.   Please continue, sir.  So what happened on the 2nd of May?

16        A.   Mr. Lukic, on the 2nd of May, president of the Presidency of

17     Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, came back from Lisbon

18     where he attended negotiations on a plan for Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He

19     landed at Butmir Airport in Sarajevo, and nearby there was a command of

20     the 4th Corps of the JNA, and one part of the command of the

21     2nd Military Zone were also there with commander, Mr. Kukanjac.

22             The commander made an estimate of the situation.

23     General MacKenzie was also there, who was in charge of the international

24     peace forces in Sarajevo for Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So they made an

25     estimate of the situation, and they said that if they would allow

Page 10831

 1     Mr. Izetbegovic to go on his own or escorted by members of his MUP,

 2     probably he would be killed and probably JNA would be blamed for that.

 3     So they suggested to Mr. Izetbegovic to be escorted by members of the

 4     military and with MacKenzie and several vehicles from his units.  So

 5     there was a column of some 30 vehicles with many officers, soldiers, and

 6     a lot of military equipment.

 7        Q.   Whose vehicles were they?

 8        A.   Well, these were military vehicles in which there was

 9     Mr. Alija Izetbegovic; commander of the 2nd Military Zone,

10     General Kukanjac; and also General MacKenzie, as commander of the

11     international forces that were present in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They went

12     towards the Presidency building of Bosnia-Herzegovina because they wanted

13     to escort Mr. Izetbegovic there safely.

14             In Dobrovoljacka Street in Sarajevo, which is a very narrow

15     street in Sarajevo which prevents any manoeuvre of the vehicles, that

16     convoy was stopped by paramilitary forces who made a massacre there.  I'm

17     not sure how many people were killed, how many soldiers, and how many

18     were injured, both soldiers and officers.  Vehicles were set on fire.

19     They were plundered, and as far as I remember, over 100 soldiers and

20     officers were detained.

21             As far as I remember, General MacKenzie and Colonel Koljevic

22     drove back to see what happened, but they were turned away.  He later

23     told General Kukanjac that what he had seen there was a scene of utmost

24     horror, the likes of which he had never witnessed in his military career,

25     such acts of cruelty being perpetrated against soldiers, officers, NCOs,

Page 10832

 1     and civilians.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I think we must try and supervise the

 3     testimony as it goes out.  You asked a very short, simple question,

 4     "Whose vehicles were these?"  We've heard a long answer, and that

 5     question has not been answered.  We really need to -- we -- your question

 6     was very simple.  "Whose vehicles were they," and we've got a quarter

 7     page of answer which doesn't answer that question.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness was answering something

 9     that I would have asked him at any rate later on.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He mustn't anticipate your questions.  He must

11     answer your questions.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   General, that was the reason I asked the question.  Whose column

14     was it that you described?

15        A.   The column of the 2nd military district.  It was a military

16     column.

17        Q.   Yes, you've said that already.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of which army?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The JNA, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  So the JNA was protecting Izetbegovic

21     and MacKenzie?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have a

24     65 ter Defence document, 65 ter 01011D.  [In English] 01011D.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While we're waiting for this document, I just want

Page 10833

 1     to get some clarity.

 2             You said the JNA was protecting President Izetbegovic and

 3     MacKenzie.  Now, who were attacking this column that was protecting them?

 4     You said that MacKenzie said he witnessed a massacre like he had never

 5     seen before.  Who perpetrated this massacre in that narrow street?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the massacre was

 7     perpetrated by a paramilitary Muslim formation.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, is it the testimony that a Muslim

 9     paramilitary formation which had been established by Izetbegovic's order

10     was attacking a column that was protecting Izetbegovic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   A while ago you said there were assessments to the effect that

15     someone might try to kill Izetbegovic after his return from Lisbon.

16     That's what you said.  Whose assessments were those, and whose interests

17     would have been served that scenario?

18        A.   Mr. Lukic, Alija Izetbegovic was an extremist.  That much can be

19     said.  Nevertheless, he was far more realistic than some other people who

20     were with him and were part of the leadership.  The most extremist among

21     them being Ejup Ganic.

22             Based on such intelligence as we gathered at the time, as well as

23     evidence, in fact, in relation to the Dobrovoljacka Street massacre and

24     everything else that I've been talking about, Ejup Ganic is a person who

25     bears direct responsibility for that, if I may put it that way.  He was

Page 10834

 1     in charge of the entire operation.

 2             I understand your question.  When we talk about any danger to

 3     Alija Izetbegovic's life or the possibility that he might be killed, the

 4     people I had in mind were Ejup Ganic and his own extremist faction.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I need to understand, because you see at

 6     page 72, starting from line 5, Mr. Gajic, you say:

 7             "Mr. Lukic, Alija Izetbegovic was an extremist.  That much can be

 8     said.  Nevertheless, he was far more realistic than some other people who

 9     were with him and were part of the leadership.  The most extremist among

10     them being Ejup Ganic."

11             Now, if Ejup Ganic was with him, what prevented him from killing

12     him if that's what he wanted to do?  If you're saying he was the one

13     masterminding this attack.  You see, I've got several questions here.

14     Here's a person who is with Izetbegovic, but he's at the same time

15     masterminding the attack that is attacking Izetbegovic, and he's part of

16     Izetbegovic's leadership.  Can you unravel that for us, please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the situation within

18     the Muslim leadership was quite complex and -- yes, complex.  In the

19     formal sense, they were united in the sense of rallying around a goal

20     that they shared, an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Nevertheless,

21     each of them separately had their own goals and objectives in terms of

22     struggling to attain power for themselves.

23             Ejup Ganic was peculiar because he believed that this should be

24     achieved by the use of armed force.  Alija Izetbegovic was, in a way,

25     more moderate in this sense.  He was advocating talks and was in favour

Page 10835

 1     of seeking a political solution.  He was more realistic and more

 2     moderate; Ejup Ganic and his own faction were not happy with that.  There

 3     were smouldering tensions between them that at times became more apparent

 4     than at other times.  Nevertheless, they, too, were perfectly aware of

 5     the fact that there was a threat of open clashes breaking out between

 6     them, even severe ones.

 7             I do apologise, Your Honour.  I have to add one thing.  What I

 8     said in relation to Ejup Ganic, it was subsequent inquiries and

 9     investigations that showed up their relationship for what it was,

10     indicating also that Ejup Ganic was prepared to go as far as to

11     physically liquidate Alija Izetbegovic.  And then the events eventually

12     took the course they did later on in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that, but what I do not understand is

14     how he is actually with, physically with, Izetbegovic and part of his

15     leadership and at the same time masterminding an attack against him.  And

16     added to that, that in fact this whole convoy is being given protection

17     by the JNA who are being attacked by the very paramilitary formed by --

18     military force from -- by the very people they are protecting.  The order

19     by -- it just doesn't make -- and I understand that you say it's complex,

20     but it just doesn't sort of settle well in my mind how these things

21     happen, how enemies are in bed together and friends kill one another.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will do my best to

23     answer.  I'm not sure if I was specific enough previously.

24             Ejup Ganic was not part of the same convoy as General MacKenzie.

25     That's one thing.

Page 10836

 1             Secondly, if I may refer to history.  We have often seen that

 2     kind of principle at work, the closest of associates turning one

 3     another's murderers, assassinating a head of state, for example, although

 4     previously they might have worked together.  This may perhaps be somewhat

 5     difficult to understand, but it depicts faithfully the complex nature of

 6     the situation that prevailed in Bosnia at the time.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Gajic.

 8             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I won't be dwelling on this with

10     Mr. Gajic, not on this particular episode, and I do believe the document

11     speaks for itself.

12        Q.   Are you familiar with the document that we have on our screens

13     right now, a report on the 4th Corps command, dated the 7th of May, 1992,

14     signed by Milutin Kukanjac?

15        A.   Yes, I am.

16        Q.   Very briefly, please, what is it about?

17        A.   This is a report by commander of the 2nd Military District on

18     developments throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It also comments on the

19     way in which those developments politically affected the JNA.  The JNA at

20     the time still being based throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21        Q.   Is there a description of the Dobrovoljacka Street massacre in

22     this report, or the incident there?

23        A.   Yes, as well as all the other developments that I have been

24     referring to.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this document please be received,

Page 10837

 1     Your Honours.  I believe it is self-explanatory.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 3     please be given an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 5     Exhibit D264.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Defence 65 ter 00641D.  Can that be

 8     brought up, please.  The heading reads, "A list of wounded JNA members,"

 9     the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1992.

10        Q.   I showed you this document during proofing, sir, didn't I?

11     General, let me ask you this:  Do you actually know any of these persons

12     whose names we can see listed here, as briefly as possible?

13        A.   Yes, indeed.  I do know a number of the persons listed here.

14     Number 1, Enes Taso, colonel, an ethnic Muslim who was wounded during the

15     attack on Dobrovoljacka Street.

16             Number 3, Ratko Katalina, colonel, chief of security of the

17     2nd Military District.  Severely wounded.  Remaining handicapped for

18     life.  He now lives in Belgrade, as does Enes Taso.  Both retired with

19     the rank of colonel.

20             Number 5, Blagoje Bozinovski, lieutenant-colonel, a Macedonian by

21     ethnicity.  A person I mentioned earlier on.  He had been wounded at the

22     JNA hall, eventually succumbing to his injuries.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this document be received,

24     please, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is received.  May it please be given

Page 10838

 1     an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 3     Exhibit D265.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  My last document in relation to our

 6     present topic, Defence 65 ter 00653D.

 7        Q.   This is a list containing the names of 122 persons who the

 8     document claims were captured on the 2nd and 3rd of May in Sarajevo.  Any

 9     familiar names, sir?  Any details concerning their fate in Sarajevo on

10     the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1992?

11        A.   Mr. Lukic, I am familiar with some of these names.  Number 1,

12     Slavoljub Belosevic, colonel, chief of security.  The republican staff of

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina's TO.  He was captured and badly mistreated for

14     the subsequent ten days by a group of Green Berets.  He was eventually

15     set free.

16             Number 7, Milan Suput, colonel.  Commander of a military police

17     battalion, the very battalion that I spoke of, in fact.  When they

18     offered relief to the JNA hall after it had been attacked, he was

19     captured and subsequently released.

20             Number 33, Franjo Patacko, a lieutenant-colonel, a Croat, who was

21     also captured and eventually released.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this be received, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

25     please be given an exhibit number.

Page 10839

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 2     Exhibit D266.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you perhaps know how many persons were killed on that

 6     occasion, roughly speaking?

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, I couldn't give you the exact figure.  Nevertheless,

 8     speaking of professional soldiers, between six and seven were killed.

 9     Two or three civilians as well, women, I think.  What we don't see on the

10     list is the number of dead, but there is one person who was killed whom I

11     wish to mention specially, Colonel Bosko Mihajlovic who was chief of

12     security in the republican staff of the TO in Zagreb, Croatia.  Following

13     the withdrawal of the JNA, he was transferred to Sarajevo.  The only

14     reason he was killed was because he told the Green Berets killing all the

15     people there, "Why on earth are you mistreating us, mistreating us?  Just

16     let us go," whereupon they killed him.

17        Q.   Was there a similar incident that occurred elsewhere after this

18     one, and what were the consequences of that other incident?  Briefly if

19     you can, sir.

20        A.   Can you be more specific?

21        Q.   I will just mention Tuzla.  Did anything like that happen there

22     as well, and what exactly?

23        A.   Thanks for jogging my memory, Mr. Lukic.  Yes, indeed, there was

24     something that happened.

25             In 1991, the first embryo of the People's Patriotic League was

Page 10840

 1     created in Tuzla.  One of the founding members was Vahid Karavelic.  I

 2     knew him personally, and he held the rank of captain at the time.  He's

 3     directly responsible for the killing of an officer as --

 4        Q.   Can you just tell me specifically about the Tuzla incident and

 5     the attack on that column in Tuzla.

 6        A.   We're talking about an incident in which a column was attacked

 7     heading out of Bosanska Buna barracks and on its way to Brcanska Malta.

 8     About 200 soldiers and officers were killed.

 9        Q.   When was it approximately?

10        A.   As far as I remember, this was also in 1992, possibly 1993.

11        Q.   We will now move to an entirely different topic.  Before this

12     Court we have heard testimonies to the effect that in May 1992, after the

13     constitution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was adopted, the law

14     on the new army, the Army of Yugoslavia, was also adopted.  We also know

15     that the Republika Srpska was formed as a state, and so was the Republika

16     Srpska Krajina, and they had their respective armies.

17             What was the relationship, if any, of the security organs of

18     these three armies?

19        A.   Mr. Lukic, these were three entirely separated security organs.

20     They were separated and independent.

21        Q.   First of all, I would like to hear whether in your mind these

22     were three separate armies.

23        A.   Yes, three entirely separate and independent armies.

24        Q.   Do you know what was the foundation for the establishment of

25     these three armies?  What was the legal framework on the basis of which

Page 10841

 1     they were established?

 2        A.   Mr. Lukic, these armies were based pursuant to the constitution

 3     and different pieces of legislation, Law on Defence and Law on the Army,

 4     passed by the highest legislative bodies.  So the assemblies, the

 5     parliaments of these states, so to say.

 6        Q.   Now I will ask about the relationships between security bodies.

 7     So what was your relationship, the relationship of the security

 8     administration and you personally, with security organs of the

 9     Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of Serbian Krajina?

10        A.   Those relations were based on some ad hoc contacts and exchange

11     of information.

12        Q.   Could you possibly explain what you've just said?

13        A.   So we had no formal relations.  We had no laws or other

14     regulations that would govern our relations, but, rather, those relations

15     were based on our personal assessment and on the needs for exchange of

16     information.  We would come in contacts -- the representatives of our

17     security administration and security bodies of these two republics would

18     come into contact.

19        Q.   A short while ago you explained security organs, security

20     administration, intelligence administration.  Do you know how these

21     professional structures were set up in Republika Srpska or in the

22     Republic of Srpska Krajina?  Did they also have two separate

23     administrations or did they have a different system?

24        A.   Mr. Lukic, in the Serbian Army of Krajina, they had a security

25     department with a chief who was directly subordinated to the chief of

Page 10842

 1     Main Staff of the Serbian Army of Krajina.  In the Army of Republika

 2     Srpska, they had a security intelligence sector, and the chief of that

 3     sector was subordinated to the chief of Main Staff of the Army of

 4     Republika Srpska.

 5        Q.   This intelligence security sector, did it encompass both security

 6     organs and intelligence organs or was it just its name?

 7        A.   That's correct, Mr. Lukic.  The chief of intelligence security

 8     sector was superior of the chief of intelligence department and the chief

 9     of security department of the Army of Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   Do you know who was the chief of the security department of the

11     Serbian Army of Krajina, first of all, and did you know that person

12     yourself?

13        A.   Mr. Lukic, there were several chiefs of security department,

14     Colonel Dusan Smiljanic, also Colonel Vuk Dimitrovic, and Colonel Rade

15     Raseta.  I knew all these three officers in person since they used to be

16     members of the JNA.

17        Q.   Were they previously involved with the security tasks in the JNA?

18     Is that how you knew them?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And in the Army of Republika Srpska, do you know who was the head

21     of the intelligence security sector and who was in charge of the security

22     issues?

23        A.   Mr. Lukic, the head of the intelligence -- or, rather, chief of

24     intelligence security sector was colonel and later General

25     Zdravko Tolimir, and Mr. Ljubisa Beara was chief of the military

Page 10843

 1     security, and the chief of military intelligence --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's apology.  We did not catch

 3     the last name.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreter did not catch the last name.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

 6     Colonel Petar Salapura.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Gajic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I asked whether you knew these persons.

10        A.   Mr. Lukic, I knew them.  Colonel Tolimir and later

11     General Tolimir, Zdravko, and Captain Ljubisa Beara were in the security

12     organs of the former JNA, and Colonel Salapura was in the intelligence

13     organs of the former JNA.

14        Q.   Mr. Gajic, I asked you at the beginning where were you born, and

15     you told us that you were born in Croatia.  Now I would like to ask you

16     whether anybody ever requested that you join the Serbian Army of Krajina.

17     So during the period after that army was formed whilst you were in the

18     security administration.

19        A.   Mr. Lukic, to answer the first part of your question, I need to

20     say no; and concerning the second part of your question, I can say that I

21     requested myself on two occasions to join the Serbian Army of Krajina.

22        Q.   What do you mean?  Did you simply want to visit them, or did you

23     want to become a member of the Serbian Army of Krajina?

24        A.   My aim was to become a member of the Serbian Army of Krajina.

25        Q.   And what happened?  Why didn't you?

Page 10844

 1        A.   Mr. Lukic, the first time I requested it, it was in 1993, when I

 2     was chief of security in the 1st Army, and the then commander of the

 3     army, General Stojanovic, did not allow me to go.  He told me that I was

 4     needed there as chief of security of the 1st Army.

 5             The second time I requested to go to the Serbian Army of Krajina

 6     and become its member was in early April of 1994, when I was transferred

 7     back to the security administration.  The then chief of the security

 8     administration, General Dimitrijevic, also told me that I couldn't go

 9     because they needed me there, and he told me that he already agreed on

10     this with Chief of the General Staff, General Perisic, who also believed

11     that I should have stayed at the security administration.

12             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, on -- on the question

13     when we were -- you were asked, in particular, whether you had applied to

14     join the Serbian Army in Krajina, you said that you asked on two

15     occasions and on two occasions that was refused.

16             So my question is the following:  Why did you not resign from the

17     Yugoslav Army to -- to join the Serbian army in Krajina, in Croatia?  I

18     mean, it seemed to me that that would have been the simplest thing to do

19     if you wanted to serve in the Serbian Army of Krajina.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was needed in the

21     Army of Yugoslavia, so I thought it would be a dishonourable thing to do

22     to turn my back to the Army of Yugoslavia, which needed me.  Somebody

23     estimated that they needed me there at the time.

24             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you for that answer.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Your Honour.

Page 10845

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   General, do you know whether in the security administration or

 3     within the General Staff, were there any other people who were born in

 4     Croatia or Bosnia and who also did not go and join other armies?  Did you

 5     know of any such persons?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   Do you know if any of them suffered any consequences because they

 8     didn't leave and join these other armies, any consequences in terms of

 9     their promotions, their careers?

10        A.   Mr. Lukic, nobody suffered any consequences.

11        Q.   Can you name any of your colleagues who was there and who shared

12     similar roots as you did and who stayed within the Army of Yugoslavia?

13        A.   Well, I can mention two or three names now.  First of all,

14     Colonel Novakovic, Marko, or -- who was born in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

15     who was in the security organs at the Ministry of Defence.  Also,

16     Colonel Svilar who was in the Counter-Intelligence Technical Centre that

17     I mentioned earlier.

18        Q.   Could you just repeat that name?

19        A.   Colonel Svilar.

20        Q.   What happened to that Colonel Svilar?  What was his origin?

21        A.   As far as I know, Colonel Svilar was born in the Republic of

22     Srpska Krajina.  He held -- had some health problems, and everybody

23     originating from the Republic of Srpska Krajina was interviewed, and they

24     were all asked whether they wanted to join these armies so that they

25     could be dispatched there.  And such an interview was also held with

Page 10846

 1     Colonel Svilar, and he said that he had some serious health-related

 2     issues and that he also couldn't do it because of his family.  So as far

 3     as I know, he remained at the same position and he retired from that

 4     position eventually.

 5        Q.   Did he suffer from any consequences because he didn't agree to

 6     being dispatched?  Did he retire regularly or not?

 7        A.   Mr. Lukic, I retired on 31st of December, 2001.  As far as I

 8     know, Colonel Svilar retired one year after me, and this was his regular

 9     time for retirement.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe we are right on time to

12     finish for today, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

14             The case is going to stand postponed to tomorrow in the afternoon

15     at quarter past 2.00 in Courtroom II.  You are warned, sir, while you are

16     still in the witness stand you may not discuss the case with anybody, not

17     even with your lawyers.  Thank you so much.  Back here at quarter past

18     2.00, tomorrow afternoon.

19             Court adjourned.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day

23                           of March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.