1 Monday, 15 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
12 the day, starting with the prosecution please.
13 MR. THOMAS: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
14 everyone in and around the courtroom. Carmela Javier, Ann Sutherland,
15 Barney Thomas, and Dan Saxon for the prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 And for the Defence.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
19 morning to everyone. Novak Lukic and Boris Zorko appearing for
20 Mr. Perisic today.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 Before we call you, Mr. Lukic, just a small housekeeping matter.
23 An oral decision.
24 On the 17th of February, 2010, the prosecution filed its
25 prosecution second motion for Defence compliance with Rule 65 ter G,
1 submitting that two of the Rule 65 ter summaries provided by the Defence
2 were not in compliance with the rule.
3 The Defence responded on the 19th of February by submitting two
4 supplemental summaries in an effort to allow the trial to proceed
6 In light of the Defence provision of these two supplemental
7 summaries, the Trial Chamber finds that the prosecution second motion of
8 the 17th February, 2010
9 Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The Defence calls witness
11 Zlatko Danilovic.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir. You may be seated.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you too.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
21 WITNESS: ZLATKO DANILOVIC
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
24 Q. Good morning, will you please tell us your full name, your first
25 and last name for the record.
1 A. My name is Zlatko Danilovic.
2 Q. When were you born?
3 A. On the 30th of April, 1970.
4 Q. Mr. Danilovic, you are here in the courtroom for the first time.
5 During our proofing sessions I told you that we would need observe
6 certain rules when communicating, so when I put a question to you please
7 wait a little bit before you answer, and I will do the same. So follow
8 the cursor on the screen and when it stops you can begin answering.
9 Do you remember when you did your regular military service?
10 A. Yes. In 1989.
11 Q. I will very briefly go through your military CV, and you will
12 simply confirm whether what I'm saying is correct. You entered into a
13 contract and became a soldier for the first time in May 1992 when you
14 joined the 63rd Parachute Brigade at the corps of special units of the
15 Army of Yugoslavia
16 A. Yes.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please move closer to the
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sir, could you please move closer to the
20 microphone, the interpreters don't hear you very well. Don't sit back
21 like that, come closer to the microphone. Thank you.
22 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. This contract was terminated in September 1992; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then you became a soldier by contract again, you became a
2 professional soldier under contract with military post 8486 in Belgrade
3 that is the 72nd Special Brigade at the special units corps of the Army
4 of Yugoslavia
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you were relieved of this duty on the 30th of October, 1994
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you ever again have any contact with the military in your
9 work and life after that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. We have already heard testimony before this Court about the
12 structure of the special units corps. I would like to focus, first of
13 all, on the structure of the 72nd Special Brigade. Before that, while
14 you were in the 63rd Parachute Brigade, did you have any specialist
16 A. Yes, I went through the basic and further parachute training.
17 Q. The 82nd Special Brigade, what did it consist of and where was
18 its headquarters, do you know?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it the 82nd or 72nd?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 72nd.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 72nd Brigade consisted of three
22 battalions. The military police battalion, the reconnaissance sabotage
23 battalion, and the ambush battalion. The one I was in, that was the
24 reconnaissance sabotage battalion, that was at Pancevo, there was one in
25 Avala, and the support ambush battalion was in Vukovine.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. The military police battalion, did it have any special
4 A. I can't recall right now.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.
6 Q. Will you tell us what battalion you were in and where the
7 headquarters of your battalion was? Would you repeat that, please.
8 A. Yes. I recall now, the name of my battalion was the military
9 police battalion for anti-terrorist action, and it was headquartered in
11 Q. Can you describe what Avala is for Their Honours and how far it
12 is from Belgrade
13 A. Avala is a mountain, some 30 kilometres away from Belgrade. It's
15 Q. Your battalion, what units did it consist of, do you remember?
16 A. Yes. The battalion had two professional units consisting of
17 professional soldiers, and one unit of regular conscripts maintaining the
19 Q. When you say unit, are you referring to a company, a platoon?
20 Can you be more precise.
21 A. These were companies.
22 Q. We are interested in the period towards the end of 1993 and the
23 beginning of 1994. Who was the battalion commander at that time?
24 A. Aleksandar Zivkovic was the battalion commander.
25 Q. Do you remember who the company leaders were and what company you
1 were in?
2 A. The leader of the 1st Company was Captain Vujinovic; I was in the
3 2nd Company; Captain Berko Alimpic was the company leader. Later on he
4 was replaced by Goran Galjak.
5 Q. And the third company, the one consisting of conscripts, can you
6 recall the name of the company leader?
7 A. I can't recall right now.
8 Q. Does the name Kapor mean anything to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And your company, what units did it consist of?
11 A. It consisted of three platoons, and there were platoon leaders.
12 Q. Do you remember who the leader of your platoon was?
13 A. Yes. My platoon commander was Zlatic. He was a lieutenant.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move into private session
15 for a few minutes, please.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
17 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. How many members did your battalion at Avala have?
12 A. Never more than 50 or 60 men [as interpreted].
13 Q. And if you include the officers?
14 A. Up to 100.
15 MR. LUKIC: [In English] He said, Your Honour, beginning at line 7
16 -- in row 7, line 11 -- line 6, 50 or 60 soldiers.
17 Q. This barracks at Avala, how large was it? Were there other units
18 there as well?
19 A. The barracks was quite small. It consisted of two bungalows, one
20 where we professional soldiers were accommodated and another where the
21 conscripts were, there was a canteen, a kitchen, and some garages for
23 Q. When you were at Avala, where did you have your training, for
24 your specialist training?
25 A. Most of the training was in the barracks or around it, but we
1 also went Bubanj Potok where there was a training ground and where there
2 was a shooting range and where we had tactical training.
3 Q. How far is Bubanj Potok from Avala?
4 A. About 15 kilometres more or less.
5 Q. Did you ever have any training in Nis and on what occasion? When
6 you were part of the 72nd Special Brigade.
7 A. Yes, we did go to Nis
8 Q. When you went to Nis
9 officers from Avala, did they go with you, or did they remain at Avala?
10 A. To the best of my knowledge, all the members of the unit were the
11 private officers attended the parachute training.
12 Q. In that period of time, or rather, throughout the whole time you
13 spent in the 72nd Special Brigade, did you ever see General Perisic? Did
14 he ever visit your unit?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Did you ever hear that General Perisic visited your unit? Did
17 you ever hear it from a colleague or an officer?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. When an officer, a high-ranking officer visited your unit, what
20 did you do? What was the procedure?
21 A. When Stupar visited, the unit would line up and he would come out
22 in front of the unit.
23 Q. Who was Colonel Stupar? What was his post? Do you remember?
24 A. I think he was the brigade commander.
25 Q. Do you know where the brigade headquarters was?
1 A. The brigade headquarters at the time was in Pancevo, I think.
2 Q. Now we are going to move on to the events that we are interested
3 in. Do you remember December 1993 by anything in particular?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you please tell us where you were, or rather, let me start
6 this way: During that month, did you train anywhere apart from Avala?
7 A. We were at Nis
8 Q. And what happened when you returned, or rather, when did you
9 return roughly and could you tell us what happened then?
10 A. Sometime in mid-December, that's when we returned. When we
11 returned we were told that we would be going out into the field. At that
12 time we didn't know where we would be going.
13 Q. Who told you that you would be going out into the field, do you
14 remember, roughly?
15 A. Usually it was the company commander.
16 Q. Were you told whether you would be leaving immediately or the
17 following day or within five days?
18 A. I cannot remember that.
19 Q. Tell us, were you told where it was that you were going?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Beforehand when you went somewhere, training or out into the
22 field, were you told where you would be going?
23 A. No.
24 Q. At one point in time, did you understand where it was that you
25 were going, and if so, on which basis?
1 A. Just as we were about to leave, we understood because we were
2 given live ammunition, that indicated that we would be going somewhere
3 where there was combat.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
5 be asked to speak into the microphone, we can barely hear him.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, you are sitting far from the microphone,
7 you are asked to please get closer to the microphone because the
8 interpreters can't hear you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Were all the members of your company ordered to go on that
13 A. No.
14 Q. What happened? How did things actually develop?
15 A. We were told that everyone who felt unfit in any way or unable to
16 go in any way would not have to go and would not suffer any consequences
17 on account of that. So whoever wanted to go went.
18 Q. You said that the unit had about 100 men, I'm referring to the
19 entire battalion. In your view how many people from your battalion went
20 out on that mission?
21 A. About 50 soldiers and officers, rather NCOs. Perhaps a bit more
22 than that.
23 Q. When you say soldiers, what was the status of these soldiers who
25 A. All of them were professionals, that is to say, soldiers who had
1 signed contracts.
2 Q. Those who did not go, do you know whether later on they suffered
3 any consequences on account of that?
4 A. No, no. All of them worked normally as they did before.
5 Q. Mr. Danilovic, can you tell us roughly how big your salary was at
6 the time in December 1993? Do you remember that in any way, what you did
7 with your salary at the time?
8 A. Yes, we received our salary in two parts. The first part we
9 would usually receive on the 15th, as we did then. I received money for
10 which I could buy about 20 German marks at the time. I took that money
11 with me, and I kept it. There was a very high inflation running at the
12 time, and by the time I was back it was worthless. I still have that
13 money at home.
14 Q. How come you remember this? How come you remember that
15 comparison, if I can put it that way, 20 Deutschemark?
16 A. Well, at that time that is how we calculated everything, all of
17 us, in Deutschemark. That's how I remember.
18 Q. When you returned, did you get the second part of your salary,
19 and if so what did you do with it?
20 A. Yes, the second part of my salary was roughly that big too.
21 Q. In those days, how soon did one have to change the dinars in
22 order to get the equivalent in Deutschemark?
23 A. If you didn't buy the 20 Deutschemark on that particular day, by
24 the next day it would be 10 Deutschemark, or perhaps even 5. It would be
25 a lot less even on the very same evening of that same day.
1 Q. As you were about to leave on that mission, were there any
2 discussions going on as to whether there were any strings attached to it
3 and whether you would not be paid if you did not go on that mission?
4 A. No, we were professional soldiers, and there's no strings like
5 that in a professional army.
6 Q. All right. You say that 50, roughly 50, perhaps a bit more than
7 that, men went on that trip from your battalion. What about other
8 battalions? What was the total of men who set out on that journey?
9 A. I don't know about that.
10 Q. Were there any members of other battalions there? Did you see
11 them later?
12 A. Yes, yes, there were some, yes.
13 Q. Very well. Tell us now, do you know roughly when you set out in
14 relation to your return from Nis
15 A. Well, approximately in a day or two, after we had arrived, we
16 spent a day or two there, and then we left during the night. That is to
17 say, that day when we received our salary, we left on that same night.
18 It was roughly mid-December.
19 Q. Do you remember how you travelled?
20 A. Yes, vehicles. 150s.
21 Q. What does that mean, 150s? All of us are lay people here, could
22 you please tell us?
23 A. Well, that's a vehicle that is a bit dated. A bit dated. A
24 vehicle that belonged to the Army of Yugoslavia.
25 Q. Let me put it this way, that night, where did you end up?
1 A. Just before dawn we arrived at some barracks, that was
2 Han Pijesak. The barracks at Han Pijesak.
3 Q. Han Pijesak is in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina
4 not challenged in this courtroom. Did anyone tell you before that that
5 you were crossing the border?
6 A. I don't think so.
7 Q. Tell us one more thing, I would be interested in the following:
8 The uniforms that you wore at the time, the special units, did they have
9 any insignia, emblems when you went out into the field?
10 A. No. At that time the uniforms of the Army of Yugoslavia bore no
12 Q. The tri-colour flag on your arm?
13 A. No, no such thing.
14 Q. Do you remember whether you were being given emblems of the Army
15 of Republika Srpska to put on your uniforms either while you travelled or
16 when you arrived at your destination?
17 A. No, nothing.
18 Q. One more question, the uniforms of the special units that you
19 belonged to, did they differ from the classical uniforms of the regular
20 army? Did they have anything special about them?
21 A. Yes, they were camouflage.
22 Q. All right. After Han Pijesak, where did you go on?
23 A. We arrived in Vogosca.
24 Q. Was that on the same day?
25 A. The same day, yes.
1 Q. Very well. Do you remember where you were put up in Vogosca?
2 A. Yes, they put us up at this hotel. I can't remember its name,
3 but it was in Vogosca.
4 Q. How much time did you spend approximately at that hotel before
5 going out into action?
6 A. About ten days.
7 Q. During these ten days approximately, did you have any kind of
8 activities, I mean, there in the field?
9 A. No, we did not.
10 Q. While you were there in Vogosca during those ten days, did you
11 hear from anyone what it was that you came there for and what you were
12 supposed to do there?
13 A. Well, yes, the locals told us about this hill called Zuc, and
14 they showed it to us and they told us that that is what our mission would
16 Q. This hill, Zuc, could it be seen from Vogosca?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you say "locals" -- first of all, did you have any contact
19 with the Army of Republika Srpska at the time while you were there,
20 during those ten days?
21 A. No.
22 Q. When you say "locals," who did you mean? Who were these locals
23 who told you that?
24 A. I'm referring to civilians, to people who lived there.
25 Q. Very well. Now let us move on to what actually happened. Did
1 anything happen? Did you go out into action? What happened?
2 A. Yes. On the 27th we set out, we went into action.
3 Q. Just before that --
4 A. The action was supposed to take place a day earlier; however, for
5 some reason, now was it because of the bad weather or something, we
6 didn't leave on that day but on the next day, during the night on the
8 Q. How many of you set out approximately?
9 A. About 30 of us, because there was a virus going around and quite
10 a few of us were ill, so not everyone went out on mission.
11 Q. Were you ill?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. You say quite a few people did not go into action, you don't have
14 to be very specific, but tell me how many approximately for the
15 Trial Chamber?
16 A. About 20.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you also not go on mission?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did go on mission. I was ill a
19 few days before that, so by then I was already healthy.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Who led that group of yours, and what was the actual mission or
22 task involved?
23 A. There were two groups. I was in one of the two groups. In the
24 other group was Lieutenant Galjak who was the company commander.
25 Q. What was the mission? What were you told?
1 A. The mission was to take a building that was still under
3 Q. What were the weather conditions like and what information did
4 you have about the building before that? Did you have any assessments
6 A. Assessments were made, but all of the people who went out on
7 reconnaissance, as I said, had been ill, so they didn't go. The weather
8 was bad. There was some snow, a drizzle, rather, and it was foggy.
9 Q. Could you please tell us what happened afterwards.
10 A. We were brought to the building by a local person. We went off
11 the road a bit, and we did not come from the right side. Nevertheless,
12 we found our way. We went out according to our assignment. My group had
13 the task of taking bunkers and trenches. The other group had the task to
14 enter the building. We accomplished our mission and the other group came
15 across strong resistance. They let them enter the building and then they
16 threw a hail of grenades at them.
17 After about two hours of fighting we managed to get out.
18 Unfortunately, we didn't manage to get our dead out as well.
19 Q. How many members of your unit got killed then, do you remember?
20 A. Yes, six men from my unit were killed. And about ten were
21 wounded. All the dead were from the other group. There weren't any men
22 killed from my group, but there were a few who were wounded.
23 Q. Did you help in getting these people out? Did you personally do
24 anything about it actively?
25 A. You mean on that day?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes, I helped. I helped get the wounded out.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: In which town is this building?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Vogosca.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] When we spoke to the witness
6 yesterday we found on Google map something that the witness recognised,
7 so could we have document ID 1D --
8 [In English] ID 1D11/0340.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you say that again.
10 MR. LUKIC: Doc ID 1D11/0340.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Danilovic, do you recognise something?
12 A. Yes, that's the building.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be given a marker to
14 try to mark some things.
15 Q. This building, as His Honour asked, how far was it from Vogosca?
16 A. I think about 10 kilometres, maybe a little more.
17 Q. Is it in the direction of Zuc, the hill called Zuc?
18 A. A little to one side.
19 Q. You have a marker, so please mark the building we are talking
20 about with number 1.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Can you put an arrow showing the direction from which your group
23 arrived, and an arrow that the other group went.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, take it one at a time. Let him first
25 mark the building. And when he has marked the building, then ask him to
1 show you the --
2 MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]
3 Q. [Interpretation] So this is the building marked 1, which was the
4 target of your action. Can you now put an arrow showing the direction
5 from which you arrived and where you stopped.
6 A. We came this way, and this is where we stopped.
7 Q. Were you still altogether in a group?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you put number A next to this dot.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And where did you go from there?
12 A. As I said, we split up into two groups as we had been told to do.
13 My group set out in this direction, and what you can see here are all
14 trenches and connecting trenches.
15 Q. Where you said "my group," could you put a letter B there.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. And you mentioned trenches and connecting trenches. Can you draw
18 a line showing where these trenches were.
19 A. All of this. And this is a dugout here.
20 Q. Just take it slowly.
21 Can you put an X next to the trenches and connecting trenches.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. And where you circled the dugout, can you put the letter C.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. What about the second group?
1 A. Let me add, if it's important, everything you see here all of
2 these are trenches and connecting trenches. There's another one here
3 that you can't see very well connecting the building to the trenches.
4 Q. Can you put the letter T next to those lines.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Very well. Now, please show me where this second group went.
7 A. The second group set out towards the building.
8 Q. Could you put you a C there -- no, sorry, we already have a C.
9 Turn it into an O, that will make it simple.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Excellent. And can you mark the place where you were when you
12 were helping the wounded and pulling them out, approximately.
13 A. Around here somewhere.
14 Q. I can only say that the witness put a dot next to the letter B,
15 for the record. I think that is sufficiently clear for the record.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tender this picture, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
20 Exhibit D289. Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Danilovic, do you remember the names of some of those who
24 were killed from your unit in this action?
25 A. Yes. That was when Galjak died; Ravic [phoen], the record
1 keeper; and Private Smaletic [phoen]; Momcilovic, and Krsto Markovic.
2 Q. What happened after this action? How long did you stay there,
3 and were there any other actions?
4 A. After the action we stayed there for about two days at the most,
5 and there were no further actions.
6 Q. Where did you return?
7 A. We returned to our barracks in Avala.
8 Q. I assume you remember the date of this event.
9 A. Yes, the 27th of December, 1993.
10 Q. Do you know what happened to the bodies of your fallen comrades?
11 A. I do. Ten or 15 days later, their bodies were returned. And
12 later on they were buried.
13 Q. Mr. Danilovic, how long did you remain in the 72nd Special
14 Brigade after this event?
15 A. Until nearly the end of 1994, sometime until sometime in late
17 Q. After returning from this action, did you go out on the ground
18 again outside the territory of the FRY?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you hear of anyone else from your unit going out on the
21 ground outside the territory of the FRY in this period of time?
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. Did you hear that anyone was asked or told to go on the --
24 outside the territory of the FRY in this period?
25 A. No, I did not. I think I would have known about it had such a
1 request been made.
2 Q. Why do you say that?
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session for
6 a few moments.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
8 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
15 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You told us when you left the unit, did you stay in contact with
18 your colleagues from the unit in general?
19 A. Yes. Every year on the 27th of December, on the day of that
20 action, we have a kind of memorial service for the fallen, and then
21 almost all the former and current members of the unit attend.
22 Q. Did any of your former colleagues whom you meet at these
23 gatherings ever tell you that after this event he went to Bosnia
24 A. To the best of my recollection, no.
25 Q. I'll ask but Cazinska Krajina, Tuzla, Srebrenica, Sarajevo
1 I'll repeat, Cazinska Krajina, Tuzla, Srebrenica, Sarajevo
2 your colleagues mention he had been at any of these locations or heard of
3 anyone going to these locations?
4 A. No, nobody said anything like that.
5 Q. Did anyone tell you that General Perisic visited the unit later
6 on at Avala?
7 A. No, nobody told me anything like that.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll now have to move into private
9 session again, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
11 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 Yes, Mr. -- who do I call, Mr. Thomas?
20 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir, thank you. If I could just have a moment.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are welcome.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Thomas:
23 Q. Mr. Danilovic, my name is Barney Thomas. I'm lawyer with the
24 prosecution. I have the opportunity now to ask you some questions about
25 the testimony that you have just given. I only have very few questions,
1 nevertheless your answers are important. Please listen to my question,
2 answer only my question. And if there's anything about my questions that
3 you don't understand, please let me know, and I will ask it another way.
5 A. Very well.
6 Q. First of all, sir, you've not testified here at the Tribunal
7 before; is that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. You've never provided any statement about these matters to any
10 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor here?
11 A. That's right, I never did.
12 Q. And you told us, sir, that you were relieved of your duty on the
13 30th of October, 1994. In fact, was your service terminated because you
14 were found guilty of desertion?
15 A. No, no. Quite simply, I broke my contract with the Army of
17 Q. Were you not found to have been absent from your unit for five
18 consecutive days, was a decision not issued to that effect? And on the
19 basis of that decision, was your service not terminated?
20 A. That's right. However, that leave had been agreed upon with the
22 Q. Sir, a formal decision was issued by your unit for the
23 termination of your service, and the sole reason given for the
24 termination of your service was that you had deserted your unit, wasn't
1 A. Maybe that's the way it was officially, but it was done in
2 agreement with the commander.
3 Q. All right. I want to have a look at a document, please, sir.
4 MR. THOMAS: If we can have XN 195 on the screen.
5 Your Honours, this is, at the moment in e-court, only in B/C/S.
6 The page that I'm interested in is, I think, page 29 in the B/C/S. I
7 have a very draft translation of this page, a hard copy translation, but
8 it was done yesterday, so it's not an official translation by any means.
9 But I have a hard copy which I can provide to my learned friends and
10 Your Honours to assist us with dealing with the B/C/S document once it is
11 on the screen.
12 And if I could provide that, sir, to Your Honours and my learned
13 friends. I stand corrected, Your Honours, I see that the translation I
14 speak of is already uploaded. The page I'm looking for is the next page,
15 I think, in the B/C/S, my apologies.
16 Q. Sir, just take a moment to read that document, please.
17 A. It is barely legible.
18 Q. All right. Well, we can have the passage that you need to read,
19 which is -- we can enlarge it, sir, so that you can have the opportunity
20 to see it on a bigger portion of the screen. And tell me when we need to
21 go further down the document, sir.
22 A. Could you please tell me whether I'm supposed to read all of it
23 or just where it says "statement of reasons"?
24 Q. Just read the first paragraph of the statement of reasons will be
1 A. The reason is --
2 Q. Just pause, sir. Just pause.
3 I am sorry, don't read the document out, just read it to
4 yourself, and I will ask you a couple of questions about it.
5 A. All right.
6 Q. Are you ready, sir?
7 MR. THOMAS: Okay, if we could have the English back on the
8 screen, too, Mr. Registrar. Thank you.
9 Q. Now, we see there that this is an order terminating the
10 professional military service, your professional military service;
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Dated the 15th of October, 1994?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And we see that the reason for termination is clearly stated in
16 the document, isn't it? "Unjustified absence from the service,
17 uninterrupted leave for five days;" is that right?
18 Just pause.
19 That's what the document says, isn't it?
20 A. That is what it written in the document, yes.
21 Q. All right. Sir, are you suggesting that this was not the case
22 but an arrangement with your commander, that the documentation record
23 that your service is terminated on the grounds of desertion? Is this
24 your position?
25 A. There was an agreement with the commander.
1 Q. All right, sir, thank you.
2 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours, those are my questions.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Any re-examination, Mr. Lukic
5 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
6 Q. What was it that you discussed with the commander, and what was
7 the consequence of that discussion with the commander?
8 A. As I've already said, salaries in the military were rather low.
9 I got the opportunity of getting another job, and then I asked the
10 commander to let me go for a few days to go and see whether I could work
11 at this other place. So that's the agreement we reached, and that's what
12 happened. I came back afterwards, and then we terminated the contract.
13 I am not aware of this unjustified absence.
14 Q. Did the commander tell you that this kind of decision would be
15 made, that this kind of decision would be written up?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did the commander ask you nevertheless to remain in the unit when
18 you discussed this matter with him? Did he want you to continue to be in
19 that unit?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
22 further questions.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
24 Mr. Thomas, I forgot to ask you, what did you want to do with
25 that document?
1 MR. THOMAS: I am sorry, Your Honours, that should be tendered,
2 please, my oversight, my apologies. MFI'd, and we will get an official
3 English translation. The only page that needs to be tendered is that one
4 B/C/S page that I referred to.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Registrar, I see you seem -- you look like you
6 don't like what you are hearing. Okay. The document is admitted into
7 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
9 Exhibit P2914. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: P2914.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, I have a couple of questions
13 which I'd like to ask you.
14 The first question is the following: When you decided to join
15 the army in 1992, were you told at the time that you may have to fight in
17 A. That was never mentioned. However, a professional soldier is a
18 professional soldier who carries out all the tasks he is assigned.
19 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And that's the reason why you went
20 there, isn't it?
21 A. Where? Please, I'm sorry I didn't quite understand.
22 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You went to Bosnia, that is.
23 What about the others who refused to go, why did not they go
25 A. Everyone had a reason of his own. I don't know about them.
1 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] In other words, that means that
2 you had the choice; isn't that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So you did not have to obey
5 orders, there were no orders in the Yugoslav Army. The soldiers can
6 choose if they agree, they can do something but only if they agree; is
7 that so?
8 A. In this case, yes.
9 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Well, I have another question. When you decided to leave the
11 army 1994, why didn't you simply resign from your duties?
12 A. I did not resign because I did not know what awaited me at my new
13 job. I wanted to be sure that at my new job I would have a bigger salary
14 and that I would be able to provide for myself better.
15 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Well, yes, but you did leave, so
16 you know as a professional soldier that when you leave the army without
17 resigning, it is tantamount to desertion.
18 A. In this case, no.
19 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And why not in this case?
20 A. Because as I've already said, all of this was done in agreement
21 with my commander.
22 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] In other words, in the
23 Yugoslav Army, you can have your own special tacit arrangements with your
24 commander, you don't need to write things formally that you resign? All
25 you have to do is pick up the phone and talk to your commander or go and
1 see your commander and say, Look, you know, I want to go, good-bye?
2 A. No, this was an exception.
3 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] All right then. I shall not
4 insist. Thank you, sir.
5 A. Thank you too.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising, Mr. Lukic?
7 Further Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
8 Q. Her Honour Judge Picard asked you about the men who did not go
9 out on that mission. Was it their duty to explain why it was that they
10 didn't want to go?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Another question that stems from the last answers you gave to
13 Judge Picard, did you consider yourself to be privileged in a way? Did
14 the commander view you as one of his favourite soldiers? I mean, I'm not
15 trying to bring you into a position now where you have sing your own
16 praises, but did you have the impression at that time that the commander
17 favoured you?
18 A. You cannot say that I was favoured, but the fact was that I was a
19 bit, how shall I put this now, a bit more professional than others.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas, do you have any questions?
22 MR. THOMAS: No questions, sir, but a transcript issue. If I
23 could go please to page 29, line 13. And Her Honour Judge Picard asked
24 -- sorry, it's at line 15 on the version I'm looking at, sir, I'm sorry.
25 Asked, "You went to Bosnia
1 answer yes, but that's not recorded in the transcript.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.
3 Mr. Danilovic, that brings us to the end of your testimony.
4 Thank you so much for coming to testify at the Tribunal. You are now
5 excused. You may stand down and travel well back home.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess that's an opportune moment to take the
9 break, can we take the break and come back at quarter to 11.00.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We can, but may I inform you that we
11 can call our next witness only tomorrow because we are still working with
12 the witness. Mr. Guy-Smith is still working with him. We had planned to
13 have him brought in tomorrow. I didn't know what amount of time would be
14 needed for Mr. Danilovic in court, but we are continuing with the
15 proofing of this witness that we are going to call next. There are some
16 extra maps, et cetera, that we are looking at.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well then. In that event the matter stands
18 adjourned to tomorrow, 9.00 in the morning. Court adjourned.
19 Courtroom II.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.19 a.m.
21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of March,
22 2010, at 9.00 a.m.