1 Monday, 22 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case -- Ms. Registrar.
8 Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
10 everyone in and around the courtroom.
11 This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus
12 Momcilo Perisic.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we please have the
14 appearances for the day, starting with the prosecution.
15 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. Bronagh McKenna,
16 Dan Saxon, and Inger de Ru for the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
19 Mr. Perisic is represented today by Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, and
20 Boris Zorko.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
22 Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Our next witness that we would like
24 to call is Stojan Malcic.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while we are waiting
2 for the witness to come in, I would like to say for the benefit of the
3 OTP that Mr. Malcic is in a very bad health state. He has suffered two
4 strokes. And I advised him that whenever he needs to have a break during
5 this trial, he should ask for it, but I hope everything will run
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic, for letting us know.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: STOJAN MALCIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may be seated. Thank you, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
19 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning. Can you please tell us your full
21 name for the record.
22 A. Good morning. My name is Stojan Malcic.
23 Q. Mr. Malcic, two things at the beginning. What I told you during
24 briefing, you see a screen in front of you and you can see that the
25 record is being noted. This will give you a guidance when you should
1 start giving your answer. We both speak the same language and we both
2 speak rather fast.
3 A. Very well.
4 Q. Secondly, the Trial Chamber has been advised about your health
5 state so whenever you need to take a break during examination, please say
6 so and the Trial Chamber will accommodate you. So please be relaxed.
7 A. Thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Malcic, I'll go briefly through your CV. Can you tell us
9 first when were you born?
10 A. On the 1st of February, 1948.
11 Q. Where were you born?
12 A. The village of Rekavica
14 Q. You completed the military and economic academy in 1971; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Then you completed a high political school of the JNA. Do you
18 remember in what year?
19 A. Yes, in the mid-1980s. I don't remember the exact year.
20 Q. After completing the military academy, you were in various
21 positions in troops up until 1976, and after that you were transferred to
22 the centre of high military schools in Sarajevo?
23 A. After I finished the military academy, I was assigned to the
24 garrison of Sarajevo
25 discharged a variety of duties in compliance with my rank.
1 Q. You started working on personnel issues in 1984; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In 1989, you were appointed chief of the organ for organisation
4 and mobilisation changes in this high school centre in Sarajevo; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In 1991, in September, you were appointed head of the courses
8 that were being conducted in the centre in Sarajevo?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you at any time become a member of a different army?
11 A. On the 30th of May, 1992, I became a member of the
12 Army of the Republika Srpska.
13 Q. You were appointed there, as your first post, assistant chief of
14 the department for personnel issues in the administration for
15 organisation and personnel attached to the Main Staff of the VRS?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you please slow down and wait for me to finish my question.
18 So far the interpreters are coping but maybe we shall face problems later
20 What rank did you hold at the time?
21 A. I was lieutenant-colonel.
22 Q. You held the same rank in the JNA before that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On the 1st of June, 1993, you were appointed head of the
25 department for personnel in the sector for organisation, mobilisation,
1 and personnel issues in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You were given an extraordinary promotion to the rank of colonel
4 on the 16th of December, 1992, in the Army of Republika Srpska?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Your professional service terminated and you were retired in
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You are currently in retirement and you live in Banja Luka; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Very well. Practically most of your service, while you were in
13 the JNA, you spent in Sarajevo
14 A. I spent the whole service with the JNA in the Sarajevo garrison.
15 Q. After that, when you became a member of the VRS, can you tell me
16 the location of your service at that time?
17 A. From the 30th of May, 1992, I spent the entire service in the VRS
18 with the Main Staff of the VRS discharging the duties relating to the
19 personnel organ in the sector for mobilisation and organisation of the
20 Main Staff of the VRS.
21 Q. Can you tell me the location?
22 A. Han Pijesak. Towards the end of 1996, we moved to Bijeljina.
23 Q. Mr. Malcic, we shall now move on to our first subject. Since you
24 were stationed in Sarajevo
25 tell us briefly what was the atmosphere prevailing in Sarajevo in the
1 spring of 1992? And I'm particularly referring to the months of April
2 and May.
3 A. I was stationed at the Marshal Tito barracks in Sarajevo. To put
4 it simply, the situation was difficult and horrible. From the
5 1st of March, 1992, when at Bascarsija a member of a wedding party was
6 killed in front of an Orthodox church, all the Serbs in Sarajevo
7 fearing for their safety. Panic set in, people were afraid.
8 Then the Serbs started to send their family members outside of
9 the city of Sarajevo
10 dispatched to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, more precisely to
12 train, by buses.
13 That went on like that up until mid-April. After that, armed
14 clashes started breaking out at various locations. Transportation links
15 to Belgrade
16 that, air transportation.
17 Q. What did you do with your family?
18 A. Towards the end of April 1992, I sent my two daughters to Gacko
19 to my mother-in-law and to my wife's brother because they lived in Gacko.
20 I remained at the Marshall Tito barracks, and I stayed there around the
21 clock with the cadets who were undergoing training there. Those were
22 young men between the ages of 16 and 20. I wanted to be with them, to
23 encourage them, and to prevent them from being afraid and thereby doing
24 some undesirable acts.
25 Q. Can you tell us now what happened to you, yourself, in early May?
1 Can you describe this event, please.
2 A. On the 6th of May, 1992, was a nice and sunny day. On the street
3 of Vojvoda Stepa Stepanovic that ran past our barracks was full of people
4 strolling around, civilian people. There was no shooting in the city of
6 for my younger daughter who suffers from epilepsy and to give the
7 medicines to my wife who was living in our flat at the time.
8 I was given an approval from my superior to go out for about two
9 hours, and I remembered that I went out between the hours of 1200 and
10 1400 because that was quite sufficient time for me to go to the flat and
11 come back. When I left the barracks and when I headed towards my flat at
12 some 200 or 250 metres from the barracks in front of the secondary school
13 of economics, there was a patrol, a police patrol in blue uniforms. They
14 stopped me and asked for my ID, seemingly accidently because that's what
15 they told me, let us just see your ID.
16 Q. Were you in civilian clothes?
17 A. Yes, because no one was allowed to walk in uniform around
19 Stojan Malcic in my ID, he started insulting me, calling me a Chetnik,
20 and that he would have to carry out a special task in relation to me.
21 They took me into one of the rooms in the secondary school of economics
22 and handed me over to another policeman. Actually, there were two
23 policemen but in plain clothes.
24 They had rifles, they had belts, they had some knives and some
25 grenades attached to the belt. One of them hit me and then ordered me to
1 lie down on the concrete floor. He hit me again, and this blow made me
2 fall on to the ground. Then the two of them started kicking me, hitting
3 me with rifle-butts, and cursed my Chetnik mother.
4 When they got tired of that, they called by phone someone else to
5 come in. After some ten minutes, another person arrived. It was a
6 superior of his -- of theirs. He ordered me to get into his car, which
7 was a kind of jeep. He drove me in the direction of my flat, and I
8 thought I was going to my flat, in fact; however, he took me to a cellar
9 in one of the four high-rise buildings that were next to the building
10 where my flat was. And across the street was the elementary school
11 called at the time Ivan Goran Kovacic. This is where they beat me even
12 worse, where they treated me badly. They beat me unconscious.
13 At one point when I lost consciousness, they poured some dirty
14 water over my head from a bucket and they allowed me to come to. Then he
15 took out a knife from a shield -- sheath at the belt and that was
16 actually a knife that was a component part of an automatic rifle used by
17 the JNA and it was a very sharp knife, like a razor.
18 He put the knife against my throat and then, on the 6th of May,
19 he told me that I was the eighth in a row of people that he was going to
20 kill by slitting their throats. Then he took a pistol, put it in my
21 mouth, and then he said, It is better yet if I put the pistol in your
22 mouth and blow your head. After that he gave up on the idea.
23 Another person who was an associate of his approached me because
24 I told them that I was a lieutenant-colonel employed at the Marshall Tito
25 barracks to which they responded that their duty was probably to report
1 this to the military police. He made a phone call. I don't know who he
2 called. After this telephone conversation, he told me that he was very
3 sorry for having to make this phone call because he would have been happy
4 to cut my head off and to throw me in the yard of a nearby school.
5 Q. Can you tell me where were you transferred after that?
6 A. He called another person by phone, and they ordered them take me
7 to Omar Maslic Street police station. They took me there and left me in
8 a corridor. I stayed there for a short period of time, then military
9 police arrived with a jeep and took me to the TO building or actually the
10 building that belonged to the TO before the --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please switch off the
12 microphone while the witness is talking.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Counsel, the interpreters ask that you please
14 switch off your mic when the witness is talking. As a result, they did
15 not finish the witness's answer. Please ask the witness to complete that
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You said that they took you to the TO building, that was
19 something before that?
20 A. The Territorial Defence building, that is what it was at the
21 time. The Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 Q. Just tell me, please, because I'd like us to move on to some
23 other topics now. How long were you locked up there, and what happened
24 after a while? Were you exchanged? Did you leave those premises?
25 A. From the TO staff, I was transferred to the central prison that
1 was previously the central prison of Bosnia-Herzegovina as well. I was
2 kept there at that prison as a JNA prisoner. There were other officers
3 in that prison too, officers of the JNA who had also been taken prisoner.
4 Q. Just a moment, please, we have a correction for the transcript.
5 Was this a JNA prison or was this a prison where JNA members were
7 A. It was a civilian prison of the Ministry of the Interior, whereas
8 we as soldiers were being detained there when that war started, when
9 these problems in Sarajevo
10 floor where they put us officers at the time.
11 Q. Among the prisoners, was there anyone from Dobrovojacka Street?
12 I don't want us to go to the incident that occurred on the 3rd of May.
13 Do you remember that?
14 A. I did not have occasion to see anyone in that prison; I was in my
15 own cell all day long with two unknown men whom I first met then. They
16 continued torturing us in that prison. The torture was psychological
17 rather than physical. Every evening we were transferred to a different
18 cell, and they were telling us that they would take us out to execute us.
19 It was very hard to survive in that situation.
20 Q. Mr. Malcic, do you remember the day when you were exchanged and
21 where did that happen?
22 A. I was exchanged on the 13th of May, 1992, on the separation line
23 at Stupska Petlja on the road towards Ilidza. So that was the
24 metropolitan area of town. There was a separation line already then
25 between the two warring sides, and the two commissions met up there, the
1 exchange commissions. I was exchanged for two officers whom I did not
2 know and who were brought to that separation line.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness kindly
4 be asked to speak into microphone, to come closer to the microphone.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Malcic, the interpreters ask you to please get
7 closer to the microphone so that they can hear what you are saying.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it can be a bit more
9 comfortable for you if you pull up your chair.
10 Q. Let us just have a correction here. Do you remember how many of
11 you were exchanged on this side, JNA officers, and how many were on the
12 other side, how many persons, roughly; do you remember?
13 A. As far as I can remember, there were four members of the JNA. We
14 were exchanged for six members of the Territorial Defence, if I can call
15 it that way. I mean, at first they were a paramilitary, but that's what
16 they called themselves.
17 Q. Where did you go from there? And just tell us actually where you
18 went from there, just give me a brief answer.
19 A. I was taken to the Lukavica garrison clinic so that I would be
20 given medical assistance straight away.
21 Q. How long were you in that clinic in Lukavica?
22 A. I was just examined there. They gave me certain therapy. And
23 then I was returned to this building in Lukavica because the clinic, the
24 infirmary, had to deal with patients who were a lot more serious than me,
25 they were wounded.
1 Q. When you say a different building, is that within the barracks,
2 the complex of the barracks?
3 A. It's within the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks in Lukavica
4 consisting of several buildings. There was a building where soldiers
5 slept, there was a building where the command was. All that before the
7 Q. A moment ago when we were speaking about your CV, you said that
8 you became a member of the Army of Republika Srpska on the 30th of May.
9 Could you please tell us how that happened, how come you were in
10 Han Pijesak?
11 A. From the 13th of May until the 30th of May, and I was exchanged
12 on the 13th of May, I was at the Lukavica barracks because I had to go to
13 the infirmary every day for medical treatment. I was in contact with
14 officers whom I knew and who were also in Lukavica, and from them I heard
15 that the Presidency of the SFRY had made a decision and that was made
16 public on the 5th of May, I think, 1992. It was made public through the
17 media, namely, that the JNA units should withdraw to the territory of the
18 FRY until the 19th of May, 1992, and that officers born in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina should remain in Bosnia in the
20 Army of Republika Srpska. I think it had a different name then, at the
21 very beginning, but it's that army.
22 That was it as far as I was concerned. I was born in Banja Luka
23 and that meant that I should stay in the Army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. Just a moment, please. Do you know the date when the
25 Army of Republika Srpska was officially established?
1 A. Officially, the Army of Republika Srpska was established on the
2 12th of May, 1992, at the Assembly of Republika Srpska in Banja Luka
3 Q. Please go on. What were you told and who was it that said that
4 to you?
5 A. The 4th Corps was in the garrison in Sarajevo, JNA corps that is.
6 And it was in Lukavica actually. So I found out from these officers that
7 this decision had been made and that we who would stay on in the
8 Army of Republika Srpska would continue to receive income that amounted
9 to our salaries while we were in the JNA.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just interrupt. Thank you. You may
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is that what you were told while you were still in Lukavica or
14 were you told later?
15 A. Yes, while I was still in Lukavica that that decision had been
16 made that those who stayed would continue to receive their salary, so I
17 would receive my salary as if [Realtime transcript read in error
18 "salaries if"] I were still a JNA member.
19 Q. So how is it that you came to Han Pijesak, who did you report to,
20 what happened there?
21 A. On the 30th of May, 1992, an officer came, a signalsman, a
22 colonel whom I knew from earlier on because he was chief of
23 communications in the 2nd Military District. He said, I had such trouble
24 finding you, because he heard from other officers that I had been
25 exchanged and that I was in Lukavica. He said that I was supposed to go
1 to the Main Staff, to the personnel department, that they did not have a
2 single personnel officer there.
3 Also, by way of a joke, he said, Well, that's your orders. And I
4 said, Yes, sir; again, by way of a joke. And I got into the car and went
5 with him to Han Pijesak.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: Very sorry to interrupt, just a concern about the
8 transcript before we lose page 13 from our screen. At line 14 of
9 page 13, I heard the English translation: "... so I would receive my
10 salaries as if I were a -- as if I were still a JNA member. But the word
11 "as" does not appear yet in the transcript. I just want --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: What the interpreter said
13 was "my salary," in the singular, "as if I were still a JNA member."
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. It would be best if I asked the witness. What is it that you
16 said about your salary?
17 A. What I was told was that all of the JNA members who were to stay
18 on in the Army of Republika Srpska would have the right to receive a
19 salary and other income as if they were members of the JNA.
20 Q. Tell me, who did you report to in Han Pijesak, and was the
21 Main Staff established by then?
22 A. The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska consisted of a
23 small number of officers then in Han Pijesak. They already knew about
24 the organisational structure of the Main Staff, because at the time they
25 worked on that, however, a final decision hadn't been made yet.
1 Q. Just a moment, please. What was this final decision that hadn't
2 been made yet?
3 A. There was no information printed yet, nothing. There was just a
4 draft, how this was supposed to be. But we thought that things would be
5 the way we decided then.
6 Q. In order to establish a Main Staff, what has to be done? What
7 kind of book, what kind of form?
8 A. Sorry, I didn't actually give you an answer as to who I reported
10 Q. Please let's clarify this matter now, but I need it clarified for
11 the transcript, and then you will tell me.
12 A. In order to establish a Main Staff in all units and an
13 organisational structure of the Army of Republika Srpska, it was
14 indispensable to first create an organisational structure, and then, on
15 that basis, to work out the establishment according to regulations that
16 were accessible to us at the time, and those were JNA regulations.
17 Q. Very well. Now let us go back to that question. Who was it that
18 you reported to when you came to Han Pijesak and what were you told?
19 A. I reported to Colonel Milan Lukic who was chief of the personnel
20 department in the administration for personnel and organisation. He told
21 me that I was his assistant, that we were supposed to establish our
22 department, and for the time being it would be the two of us doing all
23 the work to the best of our ability and within the time we had.
24 Q. Line 16 on page 15, he said that he said to you that you were
25 supposed to form, right?
1 A. That was our priority task.
2 Q. Where were your offices?
3 A. At the time, the offices of the Main Staff were in the area of
4 the command of the former JNA, for war-time needs, that is. We were put
5 up where the officers -- or rather, where the soldiers were that provided
6 security for the building. There were quite a few officers there from
7 the command of the 2nd Military District. After what happened in
8 Dobrovojacka Street where they had been taken prisoner and
9 mistreated -- and there were casualties there as well, as you know; both
10 soldiers and officers were killed there. Those who had been born on the
11 territory of the FRY said that they wanted to go to the territory of the
12 FRY, and then they were waiting for transportation so that they would be
13 transferred to the territory of the FRY in an organised fashion. Their
14 families had already been taken there.
15 Q. What was it that you decided then? Could you go along with them
16 or not?
17 A. Then and in Lukavica I decided that I would remain at the
18 Army of Republika Srpska because I was born in Banja Luka in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina; that's where my entire family and all my relatives
20 live. And I even sent my children to say within the territory of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I didn't have any close relatives in Serbia
22 Q. What you mentioned a few moments ago in Han Pijesak from the
23 former JNA, did the -- did you stay there in those prefabricated
24 buildings, the ones that you referred to, did you stay there throughout
25 your service?
1 A. Up until the end of 1992, we were all in Crna Rijeka on those
3 Q. Just a moment, please. What you said a few moments ago, that was
4 the previous command post of the JNA, is that what is called Crna Rijeka?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did I hear you say at page 16 line 22 that up
7 until the end of 1992.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's what the witness
9 said, "up until the end." Yes, you understood it correctly. "Up until
10 the end of 1992."
11 Q. You were there in Crna Rijeka as well, right, in these
12 prefabricated buildings?
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So where did you go after that, your sector, your service?
16 A. That's what I was trying to say.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, we just need the witness's
18 answer to be recorded on page 17, line 6. The witness's answer was
20 Q. You see, Mr. Malcic, the interpreters are already telling us that
21 they did not hear what you said. You will have to pause a bit before
22 starting to answer, and I will do the same.
23 My question was --
24 A. Since we established the Main Staff already during 1992, more
25 officers came, so the personnel level of the Main Staff went up. In
1 those premises there simply wasn't enough room for the entire Main Staff.
2 Q. Where did you move then?
3 A. A decision was made to establish a rear command post of the
4 Main Staff. And it was decided that it will be in the Gora hotel in
5 Han Pijesak. The logistical sector was moved to this new command post,
6 as well as the sector for organisation and mobilisation, the financial
7 administration, and the sector for information and religious affairs.
8 From December 1992 onwards until December 1996, I was in hotel
9 Gora in Han Pijesak working at my sector.
10 Q. Can you tell us roughly how far were Han Pijesak and hotel Gora
11 from Crna Rijeka?
12 A. About 20 kilometres by road, if I remember correctly.
13 Q. That was my question. You said that at the beginning you were
14 appointed assistant chief for personnel affairs. This personnel
15 department was subordinated to whom?
16 A. Throughout the whole period, the personnel department was part
17 of, initially, administration for organisation and personnel issues, and
18 from mid-1993, of the sector for organisation and mobilisation issues.
19 And that name remained until the end.
20 Q. In addition to your department, your sector, do you remember what
21 other departments there were?
22 A. In addition to the personnel department, if I remember correctly,
23 there was a department for organisation and establishment, a section for
24 recruitment and mobilisation, and a information technology organ.
25 Q. From your CV we saw that at one point you were appointed chief of
1 the personnel department. Who was the head of the sector that you just
2 mentioned to which your department was subordinated, and during the war
3 were there any changes in personnel terms in this post?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry, Mr. Lukic. You are asking the
5 question of subordination a second time. The first time you asked for
6 it -- you asked it was at page 18, line 8 to 9. It has never been
7 answered. Secondly, this question that you are now asking has got so
8 many questions that I think you should break it up into pieces. You
9 know, you are saying from your CV, and then who was the head, and then
10 during the war who was subordinated -- to whom was he subordinated.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just see whether an answer
12 was given or not.
13 Q. Your personnel department was subordinated to whom?
14 A. At the beginning, to the chief of administration for organisation
15 and personnel. Later, this name was changed to sector for organisation
16 and mobilisation issues, but their remit actually remained the same.
17 Q. All right. You said that your direct superior was Milan Lukic as
18 the head of the personnel department?
19 A. When I joined --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the answer.
21 There was a slight overlapping.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness is requested to please repeat as there
23 was overlapping.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Can you please repeat your last answer.
1 A. In May 1992, when I joined the General Staff -- actually, the
2 Main Staff of the VRS - there's some confusion between these two terms
3 sometimes - I was assistant chief of the personnel department who at the
4 time was Milan Lukic.
5 Q. My question was who he was subordinated to.
6 A. He was subordinated to the head of the administration for
7 organisation and personnel who at the time was Mico Grubor.
8 Q. Was Mico Grubor constantly indisposed until the end of the war,
9 or was he replaced by someone?
10 A. He was the assistant --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please speak slowly, there are
12 two many titles.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters are asking that the witness
14 please speak slowly. There are too many titles that are being mentioned.
15 Can we go back to try and start that answer. "He was the assistant ..."
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Malcic, since there's a lot of information, can you tell us
18 what Mr. Mico Grubor's function was?
19 A. We did some re-organisation at the very beginning.
20 Q. What was his position on the Main Staff of the VRS?
21 A. From May 1992 until mid-1993, he was chief of administration for
22 organisation and personnel issues. In mid-1993, there were some changes
23 in our establishment so this title was changed. So he became assistant
24 chief of the Main Staff of the VRS in charge of organisation,
25 mobilisation, and personnel issues.
1 Q. Was he replaced at any point in time?
2 A. That's what you asked me before.
3 Q. You don't have to repeat everything, just give us clear-cut
4 answers. How long he held this position and who succeeded him?
5 A. Mico Grubor remained in this position until September 1994. He
6 was succeeded by Petar Skrbic, and he remained in that post until the end
7 of the war.
8 Q. When you became head of the personnel department, who was your
9 direct superior?
10 A. When Milan Lukic, due to health reasons --
11 Q. Let us be very clear with questions and answers. We don't have
12 to go into the reasons of some -- why something happened.
13 A. When I was head of the personnel department, my direct superior
14 was Mico Grubor, and later on Mr. Petar Skrbic.
15 Q. What were your initial tasks once you were appointed to this post
16 in the personnel department? What did you have to do at the beginning?
17 A. When I joined the Main Staff in May or June 1992 along with
18 Milan Lukic, we worked on establishing this personnel department. Then
19 we proceeded with collecting information from lower ranking units of the
20 VRS about which officers of the former JNA remained in Republika Srpska,
21 because the task of our department was to set up records and gather
22 documents for the purpose of regulating the status of officers and
23 civilians who had been in the JNA but now were in the VRS after the
24 20th of May which was the dead-line for the JNA to withdraw to the FRY.
25 Q. Who kept records about ordinary troops and about reserve officers
1 of the JNA; did that have anything to do with your department?
2 A. No, it didn't. These records were kept by lower-ranking units
3 for their own purposes, and they did it in compliance with the
4 then-applicable rules and regulations, the ones that we applied at the
6 Q. I'm going to show you a document now.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter document
8 of Defence 00826D.
9 Q. You are going to see on your screen a document, Mr. Malcic, and
10 I'm going to ask you what this document is.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please first look at page 1.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are both in the B/C/S. Can we have the
13 English version, please.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move to page 2 or, rather,
15 the last one in both versions. This document consists of four pages
17 Q. Mr. Malcic, are you familiar with this document? Can you tell us
18 in a few words what this is?
19 A. These were the orders of the commander of the Main Staff of the
20 VRS to proceed with the establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska.
21 As I can see here, an organisational structure of the VRS is already in
23 Q. Who was engaged in drafting this order and the organisation?
24 A. Those involved in drafting this order was actually the product of
25 a team-work by all the officers from the Main Staff but subject to
1 approval by the corps commanders, not consent. I correct myself,
2 assistance rather than consent.
3 Q. I'm just going to go through some basic structural units. Number
4 one is Main Staff.
5 A. I can't see that on the screen.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's go back to page 1 then.
7 Q. So item number 1 on page 1 specifies the Main Staff of the
8 Army of the Serbian Republic
9 the time, then we have operation groups as follows. I'm going to read
10 them out first. The 1st Krajina Corps, then on the next page we have the
11 2nd Krajina Corps.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 2, please. And
13 in English please as well.
14 Q. The corps command was in Drvar.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then can we move on to the next page
16 in B/C/S and let's stay on the same page in English.
17 Q. We can see here that the next one is Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,
18 followed by the Eastern Bosnia Corps.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to the next page
20 in both languages.
21 Q. Then we have Herzegovina Corps, and then we have branch units and
22 institutions, logistics units, and air force and anti-aircraft defence as
23 a separate organisational unit.
24 First of all, tell me whether these corps as listed here in this
25 document dated the 16th of June, 1992, remained with this same structure
1 until the end of war?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was another corps formed in the meantime, and do you know roughly
5 A. To my recollection towards the end of 1992, the Drina Corps was
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tender this document to be admitted
8 into evidence, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
10 please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D00290, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: 290, thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to have us look at another
14 document now on our screens. It is from the Defence 65 ter list, 00825D.
15 [In English] 825D.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, are you familiar with this document?
17 A. Could you please zoom in a bit? I can barely see it. Yes.
18 Q. What is this document, Mr. Malcic?
19 A. This is a document that is more detailed than the previous one.
20 Q. In which sense detailed?
21 A. Here we have the organisational structure of the Main Staff with
22 the codes that we used from the former JNA for the establishment of such
23 units. Every unit has its own number in peacetime, and in war they have
24 their peacetime location, their mobilisation location, they have their
25 own military post code in peacetime and in war time and also their
1 numbers, their names. We did not invent them; they were already in the
2 code tables on the basis of which information was provided earlier on in
3 the Yugoslav People's Army.
4 Q. Is this information that entered your establishment when the
5 establishment of the VRS was made?
6 A. This was entered into the establishment information that we
7 printed later on.
8 Q. You can see here that the date is the 18th of June, 1992
9 this order was made. Do you know roughly how long this work went on in
10 establishment, and once this establishment was completed here in the
11 Main Staff, what was done then?
12 A. This was the basic document that made it possible to make it
13 possible to move on to the actual organisation and establishment of the
14 Army of Republika Srpska as spelled out here. We then worked day and
15 night in co-operation with all officers of the Army of Republika Srpska
16 from the Main Staff and from subordinate units who could provide adequate
17 assistance to us. Because the basic objective was to set up
18 establishment as soon as possible and to link up all units into an
19 organisational hole to have a proper system of command from platoon level
20 all the way up to the level of the Main Staff of the
21 Army of Republika Srpska.
22 Q. Just a moment, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see at page 24, line 23, you are interpreted as
24 having said the date of this order is the 18th of June, 1992. Is that
25 the date or am I seeing -- looking at something different on my screen?
1 Mine is dated the 16th of June. By a commander of the Main Staff of the
2 Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina 16th of June, 1992.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] When you look at the numbers in
4 B/C/S, Your Honours, well, the witness knows, perhaps he can say for
5 himself. It's better if he says what date it is rather than have us
6 interpret it. Could we please zoom in on the date.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can see the date in B/C/S. Thank you so much.
8 So it means the translation is incorrect.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not quite sure. I'm
10 looking at the document here on my Case Manager's screen, perhaps it is
11 the 16th.
12 Q. Was this document passed on the same day like the previous one,
13 Mr. Malcic? Maybe you are right, perhaps it is actually the 16th.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the date please be enlarged in
15 B/C/S and I'll ask Mr. Malcic too whether he remembers perhaps. Because
16 we know the previous document is the 16th of June.
17 A. Now, whether it's the 16th or 18th, it's pretty dark here, so
18 it's either the 16th or the 18th. I think it's the 18th, rather.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it's the 18th as well.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you look at that figure 18 and the figure that
21 denotes the month, would you say they look alike or don't they?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It certainly happened in June. Now
23 I can see it; it's the 18th of June, 1992.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You may proceed, sir.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Poor photocopies.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can take the break now,
2 or, rather, I'd like to tender it first.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
4 given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D00291, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 And you said that would be a convenient moment. We'll take a
8 break and come back at quarter to 11.00.
9 Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. When the establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska was
15 completed, what did you do then in relation to the personnel affairs that
16 you actually dealt with?
17 A. When the establishment was put in place, I, as personnel officer,
18 immediately started giving specific duties to specific soldiers and
19 officers as their superiors had decided.
20 Q. Later on we are going to analyse the army, the Law on the Army of
21 Republika Srpska, but do you perhaps know when this Law on the Army of
22 Republika Srpska was passed?
23 A. I think it was the end of June 1992, but I'm not sure.
24 Q. Tell us, according to the rules of the former JNA, what does the
25 personnel dossier of an active-duty officer or soldier contain?
1 A. There were instructions as to what it should contain. Basic data
2 is entered immediately upon completion of military school, including the
3 grades they had, then their first performance assessment as soon as they
4 start working, and then later every change in terms of their service was
5 entered into the dossier file. There were two actually dossiers, DP 1
6 and DP 2.
7 Q. Could you please tell me what they were marked?
8 A. DP 1 and DP 2.
9 Q. Fine, yes, it's there in the transcript.
10 A. Personnel dossier number 1 and personnel dossier number 2.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Lukic, please.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Okay, Your Honour. Sorry.
14 Q. [Interpretation] My question was whether there was -- the
15 abbreviation was DPP 1 or DPP 2 and the witness said they called it in
16 abbreviated terms.
17 A. Personnel dossier.
18 Q. Do you remember during the former JNA where were these dossiers
19 kept, DP 1 and DP 2?
20 A. DP 1 was in the personnel administration, and DP 2 was kept with
21 the personnel organ, the officer in charge of regulating a particular
22 person's status in the service.
23 Q. When you say personnel administration, what do you mean?
24 A. The personnel administration of the JNA, while I worked in the
25 JNA that is.
1 Q. Was that in the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, this
2 personal administration where DP 1 was kept or was that within the unit?
3 A. The personnel administration was either in the General Staff or
4 the ministry; I cannot remember exactly now. But at any rate, it was at
5 the highest level of control and command of the JNA.
6 Q. When you say the officer in charge who kept DP 2, can you give us
7 a specific example when you were in the JNA at the centre of higher
8 schools in Sarajevo
9 A. My DP 1 was at the personnel administration, and the DP 2 was
10 kept by the deputy chief of the General Staff for the KoV --
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter didn't hear the end of the
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] DP 2 was kept with the deputy
16 chief of the General Staff for KoV where the personnel organ was. That
17 was the organisational organ of the General Staff of the JNA.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does KoV stand for?
19 [Microphone not activated]
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dossier of personnel information
21 number 2.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. When the JNA was withdrawn from the territory of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in relation to the units that were in the
25 2nd Military District beforehand, where were these DP 2s, these personnel
1 files, at the moment before withdrawal and where were they after
3 A. Before withdrawal, DP 2 for NCOs as far as I can remember --
4 well, it was the corps commander who regulated the situation for
5 non-commissioned officers, so this DP 2 was kept by the personnel organ
6 at the corps command. For all officers, this DP 2 was at the command of
7 the 2nd Military District as it was known at the time in Sarajevo.
8 Q. These parts of personnel dossiers, when the JNA units left
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, did they stay in Sarajevo
10 unit as it were?
11 A. I'm not clear on that, what happened to the DP 2s that were kept
12 by the personnel organ of the 2nd Military District. Because on the
13 2nd of May or, rather, on the 3rd of May, the incident at
14 Dobrovojacka Street happened where many officers and soldiers got killed
15 and the entire documentation and materiel resources that were part of
16 that convoy were destroyed. I do not know about any of that being taken
17 out of Sarajevo
18 Q. Perhaps I'm not being clear. This documentation, was it supposed
19 to leave the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina
20 it supposed to remain in, say, in Han Pijesak?
21 A. It was supposed to leave with that unit to the same location
22 where the unit was being sent and then a decision would ultimately be
23 made what would be done with the documentation.
24 Q. Now, in the personnel department of the Main Staff of the
25 Army of Republika Srpska, did you make any personnel documentation and
1 personnel dossiers? How did you deal with this personnel information
3 A. Immediately in June, an order was made on the powers of officers
4 for regulating the status in service. I think that's what the document
5 was called. Every officer in charge would establish his dossier for a
6 professional military soldier. I, in the personnel department,
7 established an original dossier, as I said, for all military officers who
8 were supposed to regulate the status of persons serving for the chief of
9 Main Staff. From lower ranking subordinates, I received certain
10 documents that I used for regulating their status, and I was supposed to
11 look into how this was dealt with in subordinate units.
12 We had our own database in the computer, and this was
13 indispensable for us so that we could regulate the status of each and
14 every professional officer and every civilian serving in the
15 Army of Republika Srpska. Those who stayed on after the JNA withdrew
16 into the FRY.
17 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that in June an order was passed about
18 regulating status in service. Whose order was this; of the
19 Army of Yugoslavia
20 A. Immediately after the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska was
21 adopted, bylaws were supposed to be passed and the minister of defence of
22 the Army of Republika Srpska passed that regulation for regulating the
23 status of military officers in the Army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. Very well.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like us to have a
1 document from our 65 ter list, or, rather, the Prosecution 65 ter list.
2 9230 is the document I'd like to have.
3 Your Honour, this is the organisational schematic that was used
4 by Mr. Harmon in his opening statement. I am not going to tender it, but
5 I would like the witness to use this schematic in order to deal with
6 certain questions.
7 65 ter 9230 is what I'd like to have now.
8 Q. This is in English, Mr. Malcic, but I'm going to ask you
9 questions about particular individuals, certain officers. I would like
10 to know whether the persons I'm going to mention to you now were members
11 of the Army of Republika Srpska from the very outset when it was
12 established and during the course of 1992, so that first period as it
14 First I'm going to ask you about General Ratko Mladic, whether he
15 was in the Army of Republika Srpska from the very outset?
16 A. Yes, from the very outset when the Army of Republika Srpska was
17 established, he was in the Army of Republika Srpska, and he was born in
19 Q. Please just give me brief answers. I don't want to go into other
20 details now.
21 Manojlo Milovanovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Radivoje Miletic?
24 A. From June 1992, I think.
25 Q. Jovan Maric?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Zdravko Tolimir?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Milan
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mico Grubor?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Petar Skrbic?
9 A. I think he came during 1993.
10 Q. Djordje Djukic?
11 A. From the beginning of the war.
12 Q. Stevan Tomic?
13 A. From the beginning.
14 Q. Now I'm going to ask you about the commanders and the chiefs of
15 staff of corps.
16 Talic Momir?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Bosko Kelecevic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Grujo Boric?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Mico Vlaisavljevic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Novica Simic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Budimir Gavric?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Dragomir Milosevic?
4 A. As far as I can remember, he was there from the beginning. I'm
5 not sure though.
6 Q. Stanislav Galic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Radovan Grubac?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Vlado Spremo?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Radislav Krstic?
13 A. He came a bit later, but he was there in 1992.
14 Q. Milutin Skocajic?
15 A. From the beginning.
16 Q. Zivomere Ninkovic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Bozo Novak?
19 A. Yes. If you allow me, when I say "yes," that means June, the
20 month of June, when I was in the Main Staff and when I knew whether they
21 were serving in the Army of Republika Srpska, that is, June 1992.
22 Q. Thank you. What about Bogdan Subotic, what was his position?
23 A. Bogdan Subotic worked in the education centre in Banja Luka
24 After the Government of Republika Srpska was formed, he became the
25 minister of defence.
1 Q. What about Dusan Kovacevic?
2 A. He came later. At first he was with the Main Staff from the
3 beginning, but when Bogdan Subotic was appointed advisor to the president
4 of the republic for military issue, then Kovacevic took the position of
5 minister of defence of Republika Srpska.
6 Q. Can you give us some numerical information about the level of
7 staffing of the Main Staff and the status of these highest positions.
8 Were all these highest positions filled in 1992?
9 A. Immediately upon the adoption and the application of the
10 establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska, but we had only so many
11 officers that was sufficient to fill the basic positions because that
12 created problems for us. I can't give you any percentage information;
13 that would be pure guess-work.
14 Q. Did you get new uniforms and new insignia once you became a
15 member of the VRS?
16 A. Immediately at the beginning, that is to say, in the summer
17 of 1992, we didn't have new uniforms of the VRS, but in June we decided
18 which insignia the VRS was going to wear. We had patches worn on our
19 sleeves in the form of a tri-colour of Republika Srpska, and we had the
20 same insignia on our caps.
21 Q. What did you do in order to improve the staffing of officers, the
22 level of staffing of officers in the VRS at the beginning?
23 A. We immediately set up our personnel records of all the officers
24 starting from sergeant to generals who were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina or
25 who had been sent for training from Bosnia-Herzegovina to other schools
1 and education centres of the JNA. We believed that these officers, based
2 on their place of birth and following the break-up of the SFRY, became
3 citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that it was their place to become
4 commanding officers of one of the armies that was being formed in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. As we all know, at that time we had three armies of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina: The HVO which was made up of mostly Croats; then
7 there was the B&H TO, Territorial Defence as they called themselves,
8 which was the army of the Muslim people; and finally the Army of
9 Republika Srpska made up of the majority of Serbs.
10 But I have to note that, at the beginning, this last army had
11 Croats and Muslims as well who were in favour of Yugoslav option. That
12 was at the beginning.
13 Q. When you say that initially in the Army of Republika Srpska there
14 were Croats and Muslims, are you referring to ordinary soldier or are you
15 referring to officers or active-duty servicemen?
16 A. I know that there were professional officers of these
18 Q. Before the VRS was formed in the late 1991 and 1992, were there
19 any cases of certain officers leaving the JNA and joining the armies
21 A. In 1991 when the war in Slovenia
22 from April 1992 in Bosnia-Herzegovina as well, professional officers of
23 Croatian and Muslim ethnicities, both soldiers in war units of the JNA
24 units deployed in those territories, and the officers left their units of
25 their own volition and joined their respective ethnic armies.
1 We in the personnel organs at the time after a certain period of
2 time, I think it was five working days, decided that once somebody failed
3 to report with their unit, we were obliged to institute proceedings to
4 terminate their service in the JNA due to absence without leave. And
5 such individual's service was terminated in the JNA because we knew that
6 they had joined these newly formed armies in these new republics. Only a
7 few or handful of officers, pro-Yugoslav oriented officers, remained in
8 the JNA until its break-up. In early 1992, there were such officers in
9 the Army of Republika Srpska as well.
10 Q. What happened to those Croat and Muslim officers who were in the
11 Army of Republika Srpska in the initial period?
12 A. We, the officers in Bosnia-Herzegovina, thought that there won't
13 be any major war, that everything would be over in a very short period of
14 time. However, with the passage of time, we realised that this was not
15 going to be the case, and these officers finally realised that it's not
16 their place to be in the army that was fighting the Muslim and the
17 Croatian armies. Some of them wanted to join the Yugoslav Army, the VJ,
18 and some of them wanted to stay with the VRS until the very end. And I
19 think these people, the latter group, came from mixed marriages. We
20 didn't prevent them from remaining with the VRS. We first told them and
21 gave approval to go on annual leave and then to be sent to the VJ. We
22 just sent them on an annual leave to give them ample time to think it
23 through. That was about for a month, and after that they would decide
24 whether to join this new army and regulate the status. Because, at the
25 time, the VJ was willing to accept these kind of individuals.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have document from
3 65 ter list of the Defence 003 -- sorry, yes, 0038D. 00038D.
4 Q. We are going to see the English version shortly. This is a
5 document issued by the Eastern Bosnian Corps and sent to the Main Staff
6 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's dated the 25th of June, 1992
7 Mr. Malcic, can you tell us, are you familiar with this document,
8 and what was the purpose of this document sent to the Main Staff?
9 A. I am familiar with this document. There were several documents
10 of the same type at the beginning in June and July 1992. We acquired
11 information in a variety of ways relating to the officers who were born
12 in Bosnia-Herzegovina but who were serving in the Yugoslav Army. Some of
13 them contacted us by telephone personally, expressing their wish to join
14 the VRS, but they didn't know how. We put all this on paper. And
15 through the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, we sent to the
16 personnel administration of the VJ a request to allow these officers to
17 join the VRS because there were quite a few of them. And we thought that
18 everybody who was born in Bosnia-Herzegovina is entitled to join the VRS.
19 Q. Who did these officers contact? What was the procedure in place
20 at the time, and was the procedure altered subsequently?
21 A. Initially, these volunteers who wanted to come would go
22 immediately to a corps command in their birth place, where they wanted to
23 be, and where they thought they were most needed. Some of them contacted
24 us in Han Pijesak as well. They declared themselves to be professional
25 servicemen who wished to be assigned to wherever they are most needed by
1 the VRS. However, there were those who, for various family reasons,
2 didn't join the VRS. They rather decided to wait for providing for their
3 family and then after that they would come and join the VRS because they
4 thought they belonged there.
5 After the withdrawal of the JNA in June from Bosnia-Herzegovina,
6 many families were accommodated or placed in barracks as refugees. And
7 even to this date, some of these families are still living in those
8 VJ barracks which are not fit for living, because they didn't manage to
9 solve their housing problems, and many of them are still living in rented
10 flats in Yugoslavia
11 Q. Who appointed them to serve in the VRS?
12 A. All the officers who subsequently joined the VRS were referred
13 to, I think, under Article 271, to the Army of Republika Srpska. An
14 officer in charge of the VRS would appoint all these officers according
15 to war time and peacetime establishment adopted in June 1992 in
16 compliance with the decree of the minister of defence that I mentioned
18 Q. What were the criteria that this officer in charge applied? For
19 example, if somebody came to Han Pijesak, what kind of criteria were
20 applied for their appointment?
21 A. Once these officers came to Han Pijesak to the Main Staff, first
22 we listened to their wishes, then we reviewed their education background,
23 their rank, and we reviewed whether he was needed in his birth place.
24 And, wherever it was possible, we would point them in the places where
25 their families lived, of course depending on the rank and the need of the
1 service. And once we have conducted these interviews, this kind of
2 officer would say, Yes, I would accept this appointment.
3 The main criterion was to send them to their birth place. That
4 was the strongest point because they were willing to defend their
5 families, their parents, and everybody else living in their birth place.
6 And that is why they joined those units. There was a real danger of
7 their families being killed.
8 Q. Mr. Malcic, we saw that throughout the war you were stationed at
9 Han Pijesak, but we didn't discuss what happened to your family after the
10 May events in 1992. Did your family go to Serbia or elsewhere? Can you
11 just tell us briefly.
12 A. As far as I remember, I think I said earlier that I had sent my
13 daughters to Gacko. My wife later managed somehow with difficulties to
14 leave Sarajevo
15 appropriate accommodation for my family in Banja Luka where my father,
16 mother, three brothers, and my other relatives lived there in Banja Luka
17 Q. You said that your wife had tremendous difficulties in leaving
19 A. After I was exchanged, when I reached Lukavica, I found out over
20 the telephone - because there was a telephone that made it possible for
21 us to contact persons in Sarajevo
22 so-called TO army. My wife told me over the telephone that all the
23 streets were blocked by armed persons who did not wear any kind of
24 uniform or some of them had some black uniforms.
25 They were breaking into apartments primarily of military
1 personnel and mistreating families. Some groups came to our apartment
2 where she was. They were armed with long rifles. They would fire a
3 burst of gun-fire through the window and then they would say, Madam,
4 where are your weapons? Or, Who was firing from your window? Who was
5 firing at our soldiers?
6 In one of these groups, there was a man who knew my wife. He
7 knew her at the company where she had worked, and he said to her, You
8 have to leave as soon as possible because you are a target of these
9 groups of ours. I'm going to be with this group in this area only for
10 another few days. If you don't leave, you are really going to be in bad
12 A day or two later, a patrol that operated between my building
13 and the building right next door was not on that road. Our assumption is
14 that it was thanks to that man that they intentionally went elsewhere so
15 that my wife would be able to leave that check-point, like another lady
16 from the neighbourhood, and reach Serb territory. That was the last
17 attempt to leave Sarajevo
18 Q. Please relax a bit, Mr. Malcic. I just put this question, but I
19 would now like to go back to another topic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Actually, Your Honours, may I please
21 tender this document first.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we admit it, I'd like to understand in the
23 main heading it says Main Staff of the SR and then it's explained as
24 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina army. Then the paragraph
25 following at the end of it talks of officers are serving in the Army of
1 the SR Yugoslavia. What does that mean?
2 Socialist Republic
3 what does it mean?
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could deal with
5 it, Your Honours. That would be the best.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In June 1992, Republika Srpska was
7 first called Serbian Bosnia-Herzegovina. The
8 Serb Republic
9 name into Republika Srpska. That is why these terms overlap, as it were.
10 The SRJ -- or, rather, the FRY was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
11 that was established consisting of Serbia and Montenegro
12 name. And before the break-up of Yugoslavia, the name was the
13 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which is the SFRY. So there is
14 a lot of similarity involved.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness now
16 explained the SR to us. In the English translation it says in
17 parentheses "socialist republic," but it's not in B/C/S. It is actually
18 an abbreviation for the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in this case.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the Muslims and Croats had
20 just declared the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Not more than that.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. Now, the SR Yugoslavia, is that the
22 Serb Republic
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is the Federal Republic
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Consisting of
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That's clear. The document is
4 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00212 [sic], Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Two ... 212 or 292?
7 THE REGISTRAR: 292, I apologise.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Malcic, since you worked in the personnel department, could
10 you please give me a general answer so that the Trial Chamber and I could
11 have a general picture. Out of the active-duty personnel who remained in
12 the Army of Republika Srpska or who were later sent to the
13 Army of Republika Srpska, their families, the majority of their families,
14 did they have the same fate like your family? Did they remain in the
15 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina? And if not, where did they go,
16 generally speaking?
17 A. After the war conflicts broke out, everyone sought shelter
18 wherever they thought it would be best for their own family. Well, a
19 "safe place," under quotation marks, if I can put it that way. Most of
20 the families of the professional officers of the JNA went to the newly
21 established Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and a smaller number even went
22 to Macedonia
23 they went to stay with their in-laws, their families. A smaller part
24 remained in the territory of Republika Srpska as was the case with my
25 family and others who constituted a very small percentage, and they
1 stayed for variety of reasons, family reasons, employment, and so on and
2 so forth. A variety of reasons.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter
4 [In English] 00188D.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Can you see this on your screen, Mr. Malcic?
6 Can you see this document?
7 A. Now.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the English back as
9 well, please.
10 Q. So this is a call-up for service in the Army of Republika Srpska.
11 Just a moment, please. Up here it says Obrenovic, Milomira Dragan, that
12 is hand-written, and who signed this at the bottom in his own hand? Can
13 you see that?
14 A. General Ratko Mladic.
15 Q. Underneath it says Mico Grubor?
16 A. It says certified by, but it was signed by General Ratko Mladic
17 in his own hand, and then it is certified by Colonel Mico Grubor.
18 Q. Tell us what this is now.
19 A. We received information on the basis of a unit that had been
20 founded in his place of birth, that there was a certain
21 Captain Dragan Obrenovic who was there and who should come to join us.
22 But the suggestion made was to send this call-up to him personally so
23 that he could respond and come.
24 We wrote this up. It was signed by the commander of the
25 Main Staff, General Ratko Mladic.
1 Q. It says here that he should report to the command of
2 Tactical Group Visegrad or directly to the Main Staff of the
3 Army of Republika Srpska Han Pijesak barracks. Who was it that said that
4 he should report to the Tactical Group of Visegrad?
5 A. He was probably born in that area there, around Zvornik,
6 Visegrad, I don't know exactly where, in that area. The Drina Corps had
7 been established, and the Drina Corps was the one that ordered him to
8 report to the Tactical Group Visegrad. Maybe he did report to us in Han
9 Pijesak, but we deployed him in the Drina Corps where he wanted to go
10 anyway because that's the territory where he was born.
11 Q. In which period during the course of the war, if we say that it
12 started in May 1992 and went on until 1995, during which period of war
13 did most of these officers come at this later date in the
14 Army of Republika Srpska?
15 A. The very beginning of the war, that is to say, in the summer of
16 1992 and the autumn of 1992, that's when most of the officers came
17 because they felt it was necessary for them to join the
18 Army of Republika Srpska. It was primarily at their own initiative. A
19 smaller number had to be persuade to come.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be
21 admitted into evidence, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document it admitted into evidence. May it
23 please be given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D00293, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I asked you a moment ago about the Law on the
3 Army of Republika Srpska.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have on our screens
5 now document P191.
6 Q. Mr. Malcic, this is the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska that
7 was passed on the 1st of June, 1992, as it says here. Were you aware of
8 this law while you were in the Army of Republika Srpska?
9 A. This is the basic document on the basis that we actually worked
10 in the Army of Republika Srpska.
11 Q. Article 1, can you see Article 1? Would you like it to be zoomed
12 in a bit? We don't really have to read it. Could you just tell us who
13 is it that the Army of Republika Srpska defends?
14 A. It says unequivocally here that the Army of the
15 Serbian Republic
16 territorial integrity, independence, and constitutional order of the
17 Serb Republic
18 the beginning of the war.
19 Q. We don't have to read it because, as I said, it is written here
20 and the Judges are aware of it. The parties are also aware of what is
21 written here. Now I'm going to ask you about Article 2. You don't have
22 to read it out loud. You, as a former JNA officer, what did you do in
23 the Army of Republika Srpska?
24 A. I was a professional soldier in the Army of Republika Srpska.
25 Q. In Article 3, the term "active-duty personnel" is used. Did you
1 consider yourself an active-duty person in the Army of Republika Srpska
2 on the basis of this law?
3 A. In the Yugoslav People's Army, I think that we were called active
4 military officers while we were in the JNA. Later on, the term
5 "professional" was introduced so then that created a bit of confusion.
6 We don't know exactly in which period what term was used, but it's
7 basically one in the same thing, active-duty officer and professional
9 Q. I just asked you whether you consider yourself to be an
10 active-duty military officer on the basis of this article of the
11 army -- the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska?
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the answer.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Active-duty military personnel,
14 yes, we simply copied that term that was well established by then. It's
15 not that we invented it.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Article 4 speaks of relations within the service, and I already
18 asked you who your superior was and you told us. Did you have a
19 subordinate in the Army of Republika Srpska according to this law? Did
20 you have anyone who was subordinated to you?
21 A. In the Army of Republika Srpska, there was the principle of
22 subordination and singleness of command. As chief of the personnel
23 department, I had my superior and I had my subordinates, and these were
24 persons who worked in the personnel department where I was chief or head.
25 Q. Very well.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have a look at
2 Article 153. In B/C/S it's page 15 and in English it's 22.
3 Q. Article 153 speaks of assignment of duties, and it says:
4 Active military personnel should be assigned to military units
5 and institutions and should be appointed to appropriate duties, i.e.,
6 establishment posts, according to the needs of the service?
7 Who is it that appoints a military person on the basis of this
9 A. According to this law, it is the officer in charge on the basis
10 of a decision of the minister of defence is the one who appoints
11 active-duty military personnel in accordance with the person's rank and
13 Q. In which army?
14 A. In the Army of Republika Srpska. Here it says in the
15 Army of Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but that's one in the
16 same army, just different names were used in different periods.
17 Q. Let us just look at Article 156. We are going to need it later
18 on in relation to some documents.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's on the next page in English,
21 Q. This article speaks about the notion of stand-in officer. Can
22 you tell us what this means and how this was regulated in the Law on the
23 Army of Republika Srpska?
24 A. An officer who is temporarily prevented from exercising his
25 duties, most often due to health reasons, can be replaced, so to speak,
1 by a stand-in officer who will perform his duties until his return to
2 duty. The second paragraph says that a stand-in may be appointed to a
3 vacant establishment post as well and that this could last for six months
4 based on the decision of the immediate superior and then for another six
5 months if this post is not filled.
6 So the stand-in can only remain in this post for up to a year.
7 Q. Were these the regulations that an officer in charge in the VRS
8 regulated state related issues for active-duty personnel?
9 A. The Law of the Army of the VRS served as the basis in terms of
10 regulations that governed the appointment in the Army of
11 Republika Srpska.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at
13 Article 369. B/C/S page 36, English page 54.
14 Q. Article 369, which deals with competence for addressing relations
15 in the service. You don't need to read it out. I'm mostly interested in
16 promotions. Under this law, who was deciding on the promotions to the
17 rank of general, and who decided on promotions to lower ranks?
18 A. Decrees on appointment to the rank of generals was issued by the
19 president of the Republika Srpska.
20 Q. Who was that?
21 A. That was President Radovan Karadzic. The rank of the colonel and
22 their status-related issues were decided by the minister of defence of
23 the Serbian Republic
24 Promotions to other ranks from sergeant to lieutenant-colonel was decided
25 by the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS. I'm going to use the term
1 VRS because the previous one lasted only for a short period of time.
2 Q. I have finished with this document for now. We are now going to
3 move to another topic.
4 Mr. Malcic, can you tell us, how did you receive your salary
5 while you were in the JNA in Sarajevo
6 A. As an active-duty officer of the JNA serving in the
8 through the military computer centre of the JNA. At the time, we had
9 several such centres in Belgrade
10 one in Ljubljana
11 it directly in Sarajevo
12 directly subordinate to the chief for the ground army.
13 Q. During the period before the war broke out in 1991 and 1992, how
14 did you receive your salary in practical terms? Did you receive it in
15 cash or was it transferred to your account? Can you remember that?
16 A. For quite a while before the war, active-duty officers and
17 civilians serving in the army received their salaries exclusively through
18 current accounts that they had in the Post Savings Bank that had branches
19 in other towns as well. We had one such branch in Sarajevo. We had
20 cheques, we had a chequebook, and we could cash them in any post office
21 everywhere in Yugoslavia
22 Q. When you became a member of the Army of Republika Srpska, did you
23 continue to receive your salary in the same manner?
24 A. When I became a member of the VRS, my current account was used to
25 transfer all my salaries and all the fringe benefits that I was entitled
1 to. And I had this account, as I said, in the Post Savings Bank.
2 Q. At one point in time, were there any problems with the clearance
3 and payment system? Did you have any problem with cashing in your
4 cheques in the Post Savings Bank?
5 A. I know that there was a period of time when the system of
6 payments was disrupted, and I think that was immediately after the war
7 began. We could, during this period of time, cash in our cheques in the
8 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. All the families who fled to the FRY,
9 or, rather, some members of the families had authorisation as a kind of
10 secondary current account card and were able to withdraw money.
11 Q. Your family was in Banja Luka?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How did you solve this problem?
14 A. We who had families living in Republika Srpska were not able to
15 withdraw our salaries from the post offices in Republika Srpska due to
16 the severance of the system of payment. Then we, the active personnel
17 and the civilians serving in the Army of Republika Srpska, gave a proxy
18 to the financial organ of the Army of Republika Srpska to enable them to
19 go directly to the Post Savings Bank and withdraw cash from our current
20 accounts and bring it to us at our command in the
21 Army of Republika Srpska and distribute the money. The currency at the
22 time was dinar.
23 Q. This is what you did concerning your family who was living in
24 Banja Luka; right?
25 A. At the beginning, whenever an officer would go from Han Pijesak
1 to Banja Luka, I would take this opportunity to give him some money to
2 take it to my family. Later on, I thought and I realised that it was
3 much simpler to authorise this officer who was collecting salaries for
4 the Banja Luka garrison to withdraw this money and take it directly to my
5 family in Banja Luka.
6 Q. At that time, was it important to get this cash in hand as soon
7 as possible after it has been paid into your account?
8 A. As far as I remember, from the summer of 1992 onwards until
9 almost the end of 1993, there was hyperinflation in Republika Srpska.
10 Money was devalued overnight. Therefore, it was very important for the
11 end user to get the cash as soon as possible in order to be able to buy
12 staple food and other necessities.
13 Q. Who among members of the VRS was receiving their salary in this
15 A. You mean in this way that I just described? All the active-duty
16 personnel and the civilians serving in the Army of Republika Srpska did
17 that. As far as I know, this system of payment was the same for members
18 of the VJ. They continued to receive their salaries through the
19 Post Savings Bank. Nothing changed in the system compared to the
20 previous period.
21 Q. When you say active-duty personnel or active-duty officers, what
22 other kind of officers and non-commissioned officers existed in the VRS?
23 Was there any other category?
24 A. In addition to active-duty personnel consisting of officers and
25 non-commissioned officers who had finished various military schools,
1 among members of the VRS we had reserve officers and non-commissioned
2 officers. But during the war we didn't use the terms "active" or
3 "non-active." It was important for them to have proper education and to
4 perform their duties and tasks in a proper manner. For the most part,
5 there were -- those were trained officers who finished the school of
6 reserve officers in the JNA before the war or had college or university
8 Q. Do you know who paid their salaries?
9 A. These officers and non-commissioned officers, just like soldiers
10 of the VRS, received salaries from the ministry of defence of the VRS
11 under the rules of salaries and other entitlements of Republika Srpska.
12 Initially, these were just symbolic amounts because part of the salary
13 was paid out in kind. They received fuel, oil, garments, and other items
14 that were distributed in the places where their families lived.
15 Q. What happened with members of the former JNA who had retired and
16 who remained in the -- in Republika Srpska?
17 A. A number of retired members of the JNA who remained in
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina later moved to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
19 Those were, for the most part, officers who lived in the territories held
20 by the TO and the HVO. The officers who remained living in
21 Republika Srpska, the retired officers, I mean, were also receiving their
22 pensions through the Post Savings Bank. Those who fled to the FRY could
23 cash in their cheques in all branches of the Post Savings Banks. And
24 those who lived in Republika Srpska, I'm not sure, but I think that they
25 made similar arrangements as we did for our families. They sent one
1 person who collected the money for all of them and then distributed it.
2 Q. Did you still have social security and health insurance when you
3 became a member of the VRS?
4 A. As a member of the VRS, I received my salary to the
5 Post Savings Bank in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. On that basis,
6 certain amounts were earmarked for health insurance and social security,
7 and we were entitled to health care and social security in the FRY.
8 Q. Did your family members use the same benefits in terms of health
10 A. Yes, in the places where they found accommodation. There was a
11 problem with that, however.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have a break,
13 Your Honours?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at half
15 past 12.00.
16 Court adjourned.
17 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Malcic, before the break I asked you whether family members
22 enjoyed the same benefits in relation to health insurance. You said that
23 there was some problem in that regard. Could you please tell us what the
24 problem was in relation to health insurance and the entitlements of
1 A. On the basis of my own health insurance, my family members were
2 also entitled to health insurance. My wife and my two daughters, or,
3 actually, my wife had health insurance through the company that she
4 worked in.
5 Q. In order to be entitled to health insurance, does an insuree have
6 a document? And if, so what is the document called?
7 A. That's what I wanted to say, there was no problem for me because
8 I had my health booklet, as it was known, and I had it certified at the
9 Main Staff and I gave it to the members of my family who were in
10 Banja Luka and they could be treated at the military medical facilities
11 in Banja Luka. However, there was a problem for the members of families
12 who fled to the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. They
13 didn't know where they could have their health booklets stamped or where
14 they could get new ones, if they forgot their original ones when leaving
15 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Also, they didn't know in which
16 institutions they could be treated. They tried to make due in different
17 ways. I don't know, it depended on the individual involved.
18 Q. According to the rules of the former JNA, where were health
19 booklets stamped and thus certified?
20 A. Health booklets of active-duty personnel and their family members
21 were stamped at the personnel organ of their unit. It was the personnel
22 organ that was in charge of dealing with status related matters for such
23 an individual.
24 Q. Do you perhaps know, Mr. Malcic, what happened to the units of
25 the former JNA that were located in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina
1 and then went to the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
2 Basically, did the 2nd Military District continue to exist after the army
3 was established and these units that were part of it?
4 A. According to the order, or, rather, decision of the Presidency of
5 the SFRY in April 1992, all units of the JNA were duty-bound to withdraw
6 to the territory of the FRY, and it was the organ in charge that decided
7 which garrison every unit should go to. They were put up there
8 temporarily as far as I know, because at that time the establishment of
9 the Army of Yugoslavia was being developed as well. Just like other
10 units, they fitted into the units of the Army of Yugoslavia. That is
11 what I know.
12 Q. We already heard some testimony here, but perhaps you could tell
13 us which elements comprised the salary of an officer in the former JNA?
14 A. An active-duty military person in the former JNA had a salary
15 that consisted of the following parts: It depended on rank,
16 position group, and benefits, such as army benefit that all military
17 personnel were entitled to, troops benefit only for officers who served
18 in troops; and then also other benefits like the air force and the navy,
19 they had special benefits within their salaries.
20 Q. Were there any other benefits that officers of the JNA enjoyed as
21 well as the services?
22 A. They had the right to compensation for separation if they lived
23 separate from their families and if they could not provide accommodation
24 for their families once they were transferred to a new garrison. Also
25 they had benefits if they served in areas where it was exceptionally
1 difficult to serve like hardship posts and the like.
2 Q. That will do, thank you. Did they have the right to
3 accommodation? How was that regulated?
4 A. According to regulations of the JNA, they had the right to
5 housing, that is to say, they would be allotted apartments from the
6 housing fund, the military housing fund. From our gross salaries,
7 certain amounts were earmarked for that, like for pension insurance,
8 health insurance, and the like.
9 Q. Mr. Malcic, you lived in an apartment in Sarajevo and you told us
10 that after that your family moved to Banja Luka. Were you the owner of
11 that apartment in Sarajevo
12 A. I got the apartment from the military housing fund of the
14 1992 that certain procedures started allowing persons to purchase
15 apartments according to a law that was passed at that time. Up until the
16 beginning of the war, I had purchased my apartment. I had made all the
17 payments necessary. However, I didn't manage to have it registered in
18 the records of immovable property of the City of Sarajevo because at that
19 time these records or log-books had not been established yet.
20 Q. Not to go into too great details, did you sell the apartment
21 later and was it sold at its market price when it was ultimately sold?
22 A. I'm one of the few military officers who managed to get his
23 apartment back in Sarajevo
24 Thanks to a good lawyer who helped me at the time. Many of my colleagues
25 to this day have not managed to have their apartments given to them by
1 the Sarajevo
2 never succeed in doing that.
3 Q. Did you sell it at the market price at the time, at least
5 A. I sold it at the time below its market value just to get any kind
6 of money for it so that I could use that money to build my own house in
7 Banja Luka and thus have a home for myself and my family.
8 Q. Very well. Now, I'd like to move on to some other documents and
9 certain procedures involved in the work you did before personnel centres
10 were established. And then we are going to see what it was that you did
11 once they were established. First I'm going to ask you whether you know
12 approximately when the 30th Personnel Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia
13 was established, roughly?
14 A. As far as I can remember, towards the end of 1993, the
15 30th Personnel Centre was established.
16 Q. Very well. You said that you received your salary in the way in
17 which you described once you joined the Army of Republika Srpska. During
18 that period before the personnel centres were established, let's just say
19 until the end of 1993, was your salary somehow made to match your change
20 in status in the Army of Republika Srpska?
21 A. At first I only received my salary on the basis of the elements
22 of the job I had in the JNA before the war. It was only towards the end
23 of 1992 once appointments were made in the Army of Republika Srpska. We
24 started receiving salary on the basis of position group as well. We
25 submitted that to the information technology centre and we told them what
1 our duties were. However, we could only submit the appointment orders
2 where the position group could be seen.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, sir, the interpreter is struggling to
4 keep pace with you. Thank you so much.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not recognise our ranks.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. When you say the information technology centre or computer
8 centre, where is it? In Yugoslavia
9 A. In Yugoslavia
10 salaries earlier on as well.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 57, line 25, perhaps we should
12 use the term that was used before, the "accounting centre," I think the
13 witness used the word "military accounting centre." Thank you.
14 Q. What was it that you sent? Which document did you send to that
15 military accounting or computer centre? I'm asking you about the
16 period --
17 A. In our work we used all forms and regulations of the JNA that we
18 found in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. They were
19 gathered there in different ways. Some things came from Sarajevo, other
20 things came from Banja Luka.
21 Q. Perhaps I wasn't clear. What document is it in terms of form?
22 A. I'm sorry. I thought it was regulations that you were asking me
23 about. The document was the appointment order on the basis of which we
24 compile a report on the hand-over of duty. We would send that to the
25 computer centre or accounting centre.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I'd like us to have a look at two
2 documents. The first document is from our 65 ter list. The
3 Defence [In English] 00191D.
4 Q. [Interpretation] This is a decree of the president of the
5 republic -- the president of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic
6 Radovan Karadzic dated the 31st of August, 1992.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just scroll down to see who
8 signed the document.
9 Q. Mr. Malcic, on the basis of which regulations --
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have it scrolled up a bit
12 Q. On the basis of which regulations of which state was this
13 document passed?
14 A. Decree of the president of the Presidency of the Serb Republic
15 as it says here, of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was passed on the basis of
16 the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska. It was signed by the president
17 of Republika Srpska Radovan Karadzic, and the officer involved was
18 Svetislav Galic, and he was commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
19 This was a unit within the Army of Republika Srpska.
20 Q. Very well. Did this document arrive at your personnel office at
21 one point in time?
22 A. A certified copy arrived in my office and then on the basis of
23 this decree a report was written up on the hand-over of duty for
24 General Galic. And then he would take that to his superior officer to
25 confirm it, and that was General Ratko Mladic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number
2 assigned to this document, please, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, I heard the witness saying at
4 page 59, line 4:
5 "Decree of the president of the Presidency of the Serb republic,
6 as it says here, of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
7 Where does it say "of Bosnia-Herzegovina"?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's written here in an abbreviated
9 form, but it just says Srpska Republika. But it was Srpska Republika BH;
10 that is what it was known as at the time.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The document is admitted into evidence.
12 May it please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00294, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This document is a dated the
16 31st of August, 1992. Can we now look at the next document which is
17 number 65 ter 00190D. This is a document issued by the
18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on the 31st of August, 1992. The title is
19 "Report on the Hand-Over of Duty." It was signed by General Ratko Mladic
20 and Colonel Galic.
21 Q. Can you please comment on this document. Is that the document
22 that you mentioned earlier that accompanies the other one?
23 A. Upon receipt of the decree on appointment, the personnel organ of
24 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps made this document based on the decree. It
25 precisely states the date on which General Galic took over the duty of
1 the commander of the corps. It says here, On the 31st of August, 1992
2 took over the duty of commander of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
3 It contains all the elements necessary to calculate the salary.
4 Q. Please slow down. This is very important.
5 Now, tell us something about these elements. Where is it
6 stipulated here?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom out the B/C/S
8 version so that the witness can see the whole document.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Malcic, they request that you don't touch the
10 screen with your finger. You can point, but don't touch the screen
11 because when you do touch the screen it causes problems for them. I also
12 don't understand.
13 Okay. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. In this document, can you point to the information that affects
16 the salary?
17 A. First of all, establishment rank, it says here major-general,
18 Position Group 6. These are very important elements for calculating
19 one's salary. Underneath it says that in this establishment book of the
20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, according to establishment, the establishment
21 rank of lieutenant-colonel falls into the category of Position Group 5.
22 That means that Galic did not receive the salary consistent with the
23 elements of a commander of a corps because previously he had
24 Position Group 8 and with this appointment he could only have received
25 Group 6, whereas he would be assigned to Group 5 only after he has spent
1 a certain period of time in that position and depending on the
2 performance appraisal. That means that he was going to exercise this
3 right only at a later stage.
4 Q. You said that this document was signed by his superior?
5 A. His superior officer, according to the chain of command. The
6 decree signed by the officer in charge.
7 Q. Now, what happens next with this document. Where is it sent?
8 A. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command sends this document to my
9 personnel department, and through our financial organ one copy is sent to
10 the computer centre -- or military accounting and computer centre of
11 the VJ. It also changed its name, so I don't know exactly how it was
12 called at this particular time. But the customary return was military
13 computer centre.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I see you looking at us. I thought maybe I
15 could get the answer without having to ask the parties. These salary
16 ranks, 5 and 6, which one is higher, which one gives you more money, the
17 lower you go or the upper you go with the figures? I'm asking because
18 the witness said was originally rank 8 now he was not paid according to
19 rank 8, and now he is rank 5 then he will get the better money later.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Believe me, it was difficult for me
21 too to fathom all these numbers and figures. I don't even know if I
22 understand it.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lower rank carries higher salary.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The higher the rank,
25 the lower the salary.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The higher the rank, the lower the salary. Or the
2 higher the rank in numbers here?
3 THE INTERPRETER: The higher the rank group, the lower the --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: So if I'm 8, I'm a junior officer to number 6?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If I'm one of the top guys --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person who has Group 1 has the
8 best salary.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it would be beneficiary for
11 the Chamber to repeat this answer.
12 Q. Mr. Malcic, I asked you what happens next with this document.
13 Where is it distributed?
14 A. The document is then sent to the military computer centre for
15 calculating the salaries according to this document.
16 Q. Where was this computer centre, in which state?
17 A. It was in Belgrade
18 Q. Do you know according to which rules and regulations the people
19 in Belgrade
20 information for them?
21 A. They abided by the regulations applicable to the Yugoslav Army.
22 We could only receive salaries if our appointments were in compliance
23 with the VJ regulations because our book of rules was so to say such that
24 could -- afforded us better salaries; however, we had to apply these
25 rules and regulations as was the case with the VJ.
1 Q. Let us take an example. You said that Colonel Galic, who
2 previously had Group 8, could not reach more than Group 5. He could only
3 go up two groups in the hierarchy that affect the salary?
4 A. That was the consequence of the rules applicable to the VJ.
5 According to our rules, he could have got the same group immediately, and
6 I'm talking about the regulations of the VRS.
7 Q. If it were to happen that your personnel department --
8 A. You mean the personnel department of the VRS?
9 Q. Yes. If you would notice that something was inconsistent with
10 the VJ regulations, what would you do?
11 A. We would send it back to be corrected so that the person in
12 question can exercise his rights.
13 Q. This stamp that you see on the left-hand side which says
14 certified to be in order, who did that?
15 A. I think that this was done by the computer centre controller
16 confirming that everything was done in accordance with the law and that
17 this person can be given this group. If he found something to be wrong,
18 he would have returned the document to me and then we would have to
19 correct it, otherwise, it would not be acted upon.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have an exhibit number
21 for this document, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
23 please be given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D00295, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document from
2 Defence 65 ter list 00157D.
3 Q. That is a document issued by the minister of defence of
4 Republika Srpska on 8th October, 1993, appointing Vinko Pandurevic,
5 commander of the 1st Zvornik Motorised Brigade.
6 Mr. Malcic, this document, if we compare it to the previous ones,
7 is it the same if it is issued by the minister of defence? Does it bear
8 the same consequences with regard to your activities and the salary
10 A. Complete identical, only we have a different officer here, and
11 it's Vinko Pandurevic.
12 Q. Based on this document, can you say on which date he was
13 appointed to this post?
14 A. The order is dated the 8th of October, 1993, appointing him
15 commander of the Zvornik Brigade. We cannot see the exact date on which
16 he took over the duty. We have to go for that purpose to a different
17 document on hand-over of the duty which confirms by him and his superior
18 that he took over the duty on a specific date.
19 Q. Is this a document of Republika Srpska or
20 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
21 A. Republika Srpska.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can with we please have an exhibit
23 number for this document, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document is admitted. May it please be given
25 an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D00296, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like now please document from
5 Defence 65 ter list, 00158D.
6 Q. This is a bit blurred, but this is a report on hand-over of duty
7 by Vinko Pandurevic, dated 25th of October, 1993. Was this document
8 dispatched through you or maybe somebody else to the FRY computer centre?
9 A. Through regular channels, it should receive my department after
10 which I would give it to the finance organ for implementation.
11 Initially, there were instances in order to curtail the procedure that
12 the finance organ of the Drina Corps directly sent it to the computer
13 centre or to the General Staff, provided they were absolutely sure that
14 the document was correct. But they did provide me with a copy for
15 information only.
16 Q. Did you record such documents in your department?
17 A. Yes, we did, about every take-over of duty.
18 Q. We are now going to move to the period when the personnel centres
19 were formed. But before that, prior to the establishment of the
20 personnel centre, did you and your fellow officers have problems with the
21 records of members of the VRS who were dispatched to you? Did you have
22 any problems at all with these records?
23 A. In 1992 and for a part of 1993, we were unable to collect
24 complete information for every officer who served in the VRS because it
25 was impossible to obtain DPP 2. All the information that we accumulated
1 were generated on the basis of questionnaires filled in by officers
2 serving in the VRS and some other auxiliary documents that we managed to
3 get our hands on, therefore mistakes happened.
4 Q. Did anyone ever leave units of the VRS without permission,
5 without you knowing that?
6 A. Yes, there were such instances.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Malcic, the interpreter asks that you repeat
9 the answer. They didn't hear you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were cases of officers
11 leaving their units without permission, that is to say, leaving the
12 Army of Republika Srpska. We didn't know where such officers went
13 because there was no order through which we could check whether they went
14 and joined the Yugoslav Army. That caused great difficulties for us.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. A few moments ago in response to my question you said that
17 towards the end of 1993 you heard that personnel centres were
18 established, specifically we will be dealing with the
19 30th Personnel Centre. Do you remember now who you heard this from, that
20 the 30th Personnel Centre had been established? What kind of information
21 did you receive?
22 A. It was communicated to me orally by Mico Grubor, my superior
23 officer. He told me that the 30th Personnel Centre was established and
24 that from then on we would have a particular person from whom we would be
25 able to receive accurate information about every active-duty military
1 person serving in the Army of Republika Srpska. Instructions would
2 follow as to how we would be doing that.
3 Q. Did you hear then or later where this 30th Personnel Centre was,
4 who it was subordinated to, which organ?
5 A. I heard then that the 30th Personnel Centre would be within the
6 personnel administration of the Army of Yugoslavia.
7 Q. Let me just not forget, I believe, Your Honours, that I did not
8 tender the previous document.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have not tendered this document.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this one that we have on the
11 screen now. Yes, I would like to tender that. That's what I actually
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
15 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00297, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
17 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you know where the actual offices of the 30th Personnel Centre
21 A. I do know. These were two offices that were in one of the
22 buildings within the compound of the General Staff of the
23 Army of Yugoslavia
24 Q. Did you go there personally?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Do you remember who you contacted there? Do you know who the
2 person in charge was, the person that you contacted?
3 A. I contacted Colonel Gojko Mijic who was head of that organ there.
4 There were four or five other people there as well, military officers and
5 civilians. All of these active-duty officers were born in the territory
6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. For the most part, they were disabled persons or
7 persons who could not do full military service due to their health
9 Q. Which army did they belong to?
10 A. They belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska. They just worked
11 there. They did that work in order to meet our needs.
12 Q. What was the name you said -- yes, right.
13 A. Gojko Mijic from the area around Banja Luka and Jovo Milicic from
14 the area around Sipovo.
15 Q. Do you know who their superior officer was?
16 A. Truth to tell, I don't know.
17 Q. Have you heard of a man by the name of Dusan Zoric?
18 A. I know that General Dusan Zoric was head of the personnel
19 administration of the the Army of Yugoslavia.
20 Q. But you don't know whether he was their superior?
21 A. I don't really want to engage in guess-work. I wasn't really
22 interested if that.
23 Q. Gojko Mijic or any of his colleagues from there, did they come to
24 see you in Han Pijesak?
25 A. Most often it was Gojko Mijic who came in relation to agreements
1 as to how we could carry out the instructions that had been written up
2 about the work of his organs so that we could have identical updated
3 records for military personnel and for civilians serving in the
4 Army of Republika Srpska.
5 Q. Do you remember perhaps what came first, what the priority was,
6 what was supposed to be done first when the personnel centres were
7 established; do you remember that from the communication you had?
8 A. First we worked on setting up up-to-date records. As far as I
9 can remember, the first document that I submitted to that
10 30th Personnel Centre was a list of professional military personnel, as
11 we called them then, and civilians serving in the
12 Army of Republika Srpska including all the basic elements according to
13 which they had been receiving their salaries until then.
14 The next document was actually the fact that we submitted all our
15 appointment orders for active-duty officers in the
16 Army of Republika Srpska, and it is on that basis that they had received
17 their salaries up until then from the computer centre. That was the
18 beginning of this process of tallying our sets of records.
19 Q. Did Gojko Mijic -- could Gojko Mijic ever give you any kind of
20 order, or anyone else from that personnel centre for that matter?
21 A. Gojko Mijic and Jovo Milicic were the only colonels there, at my
22 rank, that is, but they did not have any commanding role. This was a
23 service of ours that was there for the purpose of collecting accurate
24 information about officers of the Army of Republika Srpska. Our joint
25 task was to keep the best possible up-to-date records for the personnel
1 serving in the Army of Republika Srpska so we co-operated. He was a
2 person I collaborated with; he wasn't my superior. Mijic was not my
3 superior. It was Mico Grubor. Later on, it was Petar Skrbic as I said
4 at the very outset. Mijic was just a person I worked with, a co-worker.
5 Q. Let us go through a few more documents now. I would like to go
6 through parts of your own personal file or dossier.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have official translations for
8 some of these document and for others we have unofficial
9 documents [as interpreted] because it was only the other day when we
10 received this from the OTP. But I think that we will able to deal with
11 them with this witness. So from 65 ter [In English] 790D [Realtime
12 transcript read in error "7907D"].
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say that again, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 00790D [Realtime transcript read in
15 error "7907D"].
16 Q. This is an order on appointment issued by the minister of defence
17 of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The date is the
18 16th of June, 1992. Stojan Malcic.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you go on, can we just correct the
20 transcript. It's 00790D. No 7 at the end. Thank you. You may proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Malcic, I'm sure that this is a document that you are
23 familiar with. So let me ask you what does it say? According to this
24 document, when were you appointed to the particular duty mentioned here?
25 A. This is the first order on my appointment that I received in the
1 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
2 Q. We see two dates. One date is the 16th of June, but in the
3 document there is also a reference to the 30th of May, 1992. Can you
4 explain this to us?
5 A. As I said at the outset, I came to the Main Staff on the
6 30th of May, 1992. At that time, there weren't any establishment books
7 of the Main Staff. It was only when we set these books up, when we
8 printed them, when we included our working maps, it was only then that I
9 could be appointed to that post and be entered into this work map. And
10 then we wrote up the orders. The order was written up only on the
11 16th of April, because by then establishment had been set up. Before
12 that, we could not invent elements for my position. By now, everything
13 was clear. So then, on the 16th of June, the Ministry of Defence signed
14 this accurate order appointing me head of the office for personnel
15 affairs in the administration for organisation and personnel. That is
16 the exact name of the position I held at the time. However, it said
17 there that I assumed that duty on the 30th of May because I actually did
18 start working on these matters on that date.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down. Slow down.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. We see here, Mr. Malcic, that it is mentioned that in the JNA,
22 previously, you had Position Group 12 and now there is a reference to
23 Position Group 10, is that what you told us about, that there could only
24 be an increase of two position groups in terms of this new duty that you
25 held according to establishment?
1 A. On the basis of this document, you can see that the
2 position group is 10. I could only move two groups, that is to say, from
3 12 to 10. And I immediately had achieved that.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps do you see
5 number 12 referred to in the last line in English? In English, PG 12.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see that, thank you. That's what we were
7 looking for.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have an exhibit
9 number for this document.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
11 an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00298, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have
16 document - it's from the list that we have just uploaded.
17 [In English] Doc ID 1D11-0498. Sorry it's not slash, it's dash. I only
18 have a draft translation in hard copy, so could it please be provided to
19 Their Honours and to the OTP.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We have not received a
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, do you have a copy for the
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately I don't think I have
25 any copies for the interpreters. I can only apologise to them.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope they accept your apology.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excellent.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, we are going to the ELMO now.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. As it says here this is a report on transfer of duties for
6 Stojan Malcic, father's name Petar. The date is the 30th of May, 1992.
7 And it says here:
8 "I have assumed the duty of assistant chief of ..."
9 I'm going to read it out, and I think that the interpreters will
10 be able to follow me. In the middle it says:
11 "I have received the duty of assistant chief of personnel
12 department in the administration for organisation and personnel of the
13 Main Staff of the Army of SR BH."
14 Mr. Malcic, is this a document that was created as a consequence
15 of the document that we saw previously, that is to say, your duty --
16 appointment order?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Down here it says --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Actually, could we just scroll down a
20 bit --
21 Q. Because I would like us to hear your comments. First of all, in
22 the heading, it says, Report on transfer of duties or hand-over duties.
23 It says, The Accounting Centre of SSNO.
24 What is that?
25 A. That was the Federal Secretariat for National Defence in the
1 Socialist Federal Republic
2 didn't have any others. We didn't have been opportunity of printing any
3 others, so we just used all the old forms, and the essence had not been
5 Q. Was that the document that was basic document that was sent for
6 the payment of salaries before the personnel centre was established?
7 A. On the basis of assign -- appointment order, we compiled this
8 kind of document which was then sent on further for the payment of
9 salaries. That is what is written here on the basis of the order upon
10 which this report was written up.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have this document
12 admitted into evidence, or, rather, I would like to have it MFI'd before
13 we receive an official translation.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number and marked for identification.
16 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D00299 marked for
17 identification, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So we have seen these documents from
20 May and June 1992. The next document we are going to see is from our
21 list, and we have a translation thereof. It's 00793D from the 65 ter
23 Q. At the time, you had Position Group 10; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This is an order issued by the assistant commander of the
2 have been appointed standing officer of the head of the personnel
3 department. It was signed by Colonel Mico Grubor?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When we looked at the Law on Army of Republika Srpska, I asked
6 you to comment on Article 156 which relates to this document. I'm going
7 to ask you now, Why was this document important for your salary?
8 A. In July 1992, Milan Lukic, due to a serious illness --
9 Q. You said 1992?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Sorry, I thought you said 1993.
12 A. Yes, I apologise, 1993, but it should be 1992. In late 1992,
13 Milan Lukic was permitted to be reunited with his family in Skopje due to
14 a serious illness. He either retired or went to his unit, I don't know.
15 The post of the chief of the personnel department was vacant. We waited
16 for a certain period of time for an officer who had been colonel for a
17 longer time than I did, and who had more experience than I did, to come
18 and fill this post; however, this officer never turned up. And under the
19 law, since this was a vacant post, my superior, Mico Grubor, decided to
20 appoint me standing chief of the personnel department. And,
21 consequently, he wrote this order.
22 Q. We see here that Position Group 8 is mentioned in this document.
23 Did that in any way affect your salary?
24 A. Yes, because before I was Group 10. Now I had number 8. So I
25 was moving up. It affected my salary because my salary was increased by
1 these two steps.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll down this
3 document a bit.
4 Q. Here we see in the left-hand corner a seal or a stamp, rather.
5 It says accounting centre of the MO. Was this kind of document passed on
6 directly to someone and to whom?
7 A. This type of document along with the report on assumption of
8 duties was sent to the accounting centre for the controller there to see
9 exactly when this order was issued and what was the basis for issuing
10 this order. The report on the assumption of duty was not sufficient for
11 the controller.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have an exhibit number
13 for this document, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do, I see below that rank 8 there's also
15 in brackets, As per establishment PG 7. What is the meaning of that?
16 Looks like jumping three ranks instead of two.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we spoke about Galic case
18 before, I was appointed to formation post 8; but as per establishment,
19 it's PG 7. But I wasn't entitled to the right deriving from PG 7 because
20 I could only move up two steps or two groups. That's how I
21 understand it.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, that paragraph starting --
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to avoid any
24 confusion, line 27 [sic], page -- the witness said PG 7, but I couldn't
25 get any higher step than PG 8. That's what the witness said.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know. You said line 27. Now, we don't
3 have 27 lines. I don't know what we are talking about. Can you give me
4 the page --
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Page 76, line 20. He said
6 that was establishment post with PG 7, but I couldn't get a higher step
7 than PG 8.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you. Then on the same document after
9 that PG 7, after the paragraph -- the paragraph starting "Currently as
10 per peacetime establishment ..." it ends up that paragraph by saying
11 "... since 10 May 1992
12 I thought you started on the 30th of May. How come it says
13 10th May?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to avoid any
15 confusion created by myself because I can see both versions, this Serbian
16 and the English.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let's look at both Serbian and the English.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, please take a look
19 at the B/C/S version [In English] It's Cyrillic, Your Honour.
20 [Interpretation] It says "PG 10 from 30th of May."
21 Can you see that?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can see it says from 30th of May, 1992. It
23 looks like our translations are not up to standard. Okay. So the
24 correct date is 30th of May. The document is admitted into evidence.
25 May it please be given an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00300, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is an official translation from
7 the CLSS, the only problem was the date. But since we have corrected it
8 in the transcript, I don't think we need to ask for correction.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was not attacking anybody. I was attacking the
10 translation itself, not who did it.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document is also from the
12 Defence 65 ter list. Marked [Overlapping speakers] ... 00789D.
13 Q. This document is from July -- actually, the previous one was from
14 July 1993, and this one is from September 1993. It's issued by minister
15 of defence of Republika Srpska appointing you to a new post. Actually,
16 that was the date on which you were appointed head of the personnel
17 department and, at the same time, deputy assistant commander for
18 organisation, mobilisation, and personnel.
19 Based on this document, what had to be done -- but first of all,
20 with this appointment to this new post, did you achieve or acquire any
21 other rights on any other position group and consequently a better
23 A. In this order, we already have a sector which reflects the
24 changes in the organisational chart of the Main Staff. And now,
25 according to this new establishment, we had to reappointment all the
1 officers to the duties corresponding to the new establishment. These new
2 appointments were decided by the persons in charge, and I was appointed
3 the head of the personnel department and at the same time the deputy head
4 of this sector.
5 Q. Yes, we have seen this. My question was, Did you need any other
6 document to be issued after this order?
7 A. Yes, a report on the assumption of duty had to be compiled in
8 order for it to be sent to the computer centre.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have this
10 document admitted into evidence.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given an
12 exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D00301, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to start now on a new
17 document. I think we can adjourn for today.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we adjourn, may the record show that
19 we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis today in the absence of
20 Judge David. I forgot to mention this at the beginning.
21 We -- the matter will stand adjourned to tomorrow at quarter past
22 2.00 in the afternoon in Courtroom II, sir, not in the morning. But
23 before we adjourn, I must warn you, sir, that now that you have taken the
24 witness-stand, you may not discuss the case with anybody until you are
25 excused from further testifying. Specifically, you may not discuss with
1 your lawyers about the case. Okay?
2 Matter adjourned to quarter past 2.00 tomorrow afternoon,
3 Courtroom II.
4 Court adjourned.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day
8 of March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.