Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11176

 1                           Monday, 22 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case -- Ms. Registrar.

 8     Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus

12     Momcilo Perisic.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we please have the

14     appearances for the day, starting with the prosecution.

15             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Bronagh McKenna,

16     Dan Saxon, and Inger de Ru for the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And for the Defence.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

19     Mr. Perisic is represented today by Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, and

20     Boris Zorko.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

22             Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Our next witness that we would like

24     to call is Stojan Malcic.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 11177

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while we are waiting

 2     for the witness to come in, I would like to say for the benefit of the

 3     OTP that Mr. Malcic is in a very bad health state.  He has suffered two

 4     strokes.  And I advised him that whenever he needs to have a break during

 5     this trial, he should ask for it, but I hope everything will run

 6     smoothly.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic, for letting us know.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please make the declaration.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  STOJAN MALCIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You may be seated.  Thank you, sir.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

19                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning.  Can you please tell us your full

21     name for the record.

22        A.   Good morning.  My name is Stojan Malcic.

23        Q.   Mr. Malcic, two things at the beginning.  What I told you during

24     briefing, you see a screen in front of you and you can see that the

25     record is being noted.  This will give you a guidance when you should

Page 11178

 1     start giving your answer.  We both speak the same language and we both

 2     speak rather fast.

 3        A.   Very well.

 4        Q.   Secondly, the Trial Chamber has been advised about your health

 5     state so whenever you need to take a break during examination, please say

 6     so and the Trial Chamber will accommodate you.  So please be relaxed.

 7        A.   Thank you.

 8        Q.   Mr. Malcic, I'll go briefly through your CV.  Can you tell us

 9     first when were you born?

10        A.   On the 1st of February, 1948.

11        Q.   Where were you born?

12        A.   The village of Rekavica, Banja Luka municipality,

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   You completed the military and economic academy in 1971; is that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Then you completed a high political school of the JNA.  Do you

18     remember in what year?

19        A.   Yes, in the mid-1980s.  I don't remember the exact year.

20        Q.   After completing the military academy, you were in various

21     positions in troops up until 1976, and after that you were transferred to

22     the centre of high military schools in Sarajevo?

23        A.   After I finished the military academy, I was assigned to the

24     garrison of Sarajevo, the centre of military high schools, where I

25     discharged a variety of duties in compliance with my rank.

Page 11179

 1        Q.   You started working on personnel issues in 1984; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   In 1989, you were appointed chief of the organ for organisation

 4     and mobilisation changes in this high school centre in Sarajevo; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   In 1991, in September, you were appointed head of the courses

 8     that were being conducted in the centre in Sarajevo?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did you at any time become a member of a different army?

11        A.   On the 30th of May, 1992, I became a member of the

12     Army of the Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   You were appointed there, as your first post, assistant chief of

14     the department for personnel issues in the administration for

15     organisation and personnel attached to the Main Staff of the VRS?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could you please slow down and wait for me to finish my question.

18     So far the interpreters are coping but maybe we shall face problems later

19     on.

20             What rank did you hold at the time?

21        A.   I was lieutenant-colonel.

22        Q.   You held the same rank in the JNA before that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   On the 1st of June, 1993, you were appointed head of the

25     department for personnel in the sector for organisation, mobilisation,

Page 11180

 1     and personnel issues in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You were given an extraordinary promotion to the rank of colonel

 4     on the 16th of December, 1992, in the Army of Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Your professional service terminated and you were retired in

 7     Yugoslavia by the competent organ of the VJ on the 31st of August, 1997?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You are currently in retirement and you live in Banja Luka; is

10     that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Very well.  Practically most of your service, while you were in

13     the JNA, you spent in Sarajevo; is that correct?

14        A.   I spent the whole service with the JNA in the Sarajevo garrison.

15        Q.   After that, when you became a member of the VRS, can you tell me

16     the location of your service at that time?

17        A.   From the 30th of May, 1992, I spent the entire service in the VRS

18     with the Main Staff of the VRS discharging the duties relating to the

19     personnel organ in the sector for mobilisation and organisation of the

20     Main Staff of the VRS.

21        Q.   Can you tell me the location?

22        A.   Han Pijesak.  Towards the end of 1996, we moved to Bijeljina.

23        Q.   Mr. Malcic, we shall now move on to our first subject.  Since you

24     were stationed in Sarajevo before the outbreak of the conflict, can you

25     tell us briefly what was the atmosphere prevailing in Sarajevo in the

Page 11181

 1     spring of 1992?  And I'm particularly referring to the months of April

 2     and May.

 3        A.   I was stationed at the Marshal Tito barracks in Sarajevo.  To put

 4     it simply, the situation was difficult and horrible.  From the

 5     1st of March, 1992, when at Bascarsija a member of a wedding party was

 6     killed in front of an Orthodox church, all the Serbs in Sarajevo started

 7     fearing for their safety.  Panic set in, people were afraid.

 8             Then the Serbs started to send their family members outside of

 9     the city of Sarajevo for safety reasons.  The majority of them were

10     dispatched to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, more precisely to

11     Belgrade.  They used all kinds of transportation means; by plane, by

12     train, by buses.

13             That went on like that up until mid-April.  After that, armed

14     clashes started breaking out at various locations.  Transportation links

15     to Belgrade were severed, both road and railway transportation, and after

16     that, air transportation.

17        Q.   What did you do with your family?

18        A.   Towards the end of April 1992, I sent my two daughters to Gacko

19     to my mother-in-law and to my wife's brother because they lived in Gacko.

20     I remained at the Marshall Tito barracks, and I stayed there around the

21     clock with the cadets who were undergoing training there.  Those were

22     young men between the ages of 16 and 20.  I wanted to be with them, to

23     encourage them, and to prevent them from being afraid and thereby doing

24     some undesirable acts.

25        Q.   Can you tell us now what happened to you, yourself, in early May?

Page 11182

 1     Can you describe this event, please.

 2        A.   On the 6th of May, 1992, was a nice and sunny day.  On the street

 3     of Vojvoda Stepa Stepanovic that ran past our barracks was full of people

 4     strolling around, civilian people.  There was no shooting in the city of

 5     Sarajevo on that morning.  I had to go to my flat to take some medicines

 6     for my younger daughter who suffers from epilepsy and to give the

 7     medicines to my wife who was living in our flat at the time.

 8             I was given an approval from my superior to go out for about two

 9     hours, and I remembered that I went out between the hours of 1200 and

10     1400 because that was quite sufficient time for me to go to the flat and

11     come back.  When I left the barracks and when I headed towards my flat at

12     some 200 or 250 metres from the barracks in front of the secondary school

13     of economics, there was a patrol, a police patrol in blue uniforms.  They

14     stopped me and asked for my ID, seemingly accidently because that's what

15     they told me, let us just see your ID.

16        Q.   Were you in civilian clothes?

17        A.   Yes, because no one was allowed to walk in uniform around

18     Sarajevo at the time.  When the policemen saw that my name was

19     Stojan Malcic in my ID, he started insulting me, calling me a Chetnik,

20     and that he would have to carry out a special task in relation to me.

21     They took me into one of the rooms in the secondary school of economics

22     and handed me over to another policeman.  Actually, there were two

23     policemen but in plain clothes.

24             They had rifles, they had belts, they had some knives and some

25     grenades attached to the belt.  One of them hit me and then ordered me to

Page 11183

 1     lie down on the concrete floor.  He hit me again, and this blow made me

 2     fall on to the ground.  Then the two of them started kicking me, hitting

 3     me with rifle-butts, and cursed my Chetnik mother.

 4             When they got tired of that, they called by phone someone else to

 5     come in.  After some ten minutes, another person arrived.  It was a

 6     superior of his -- of theirs.  He ordered me to get into his car, which

 7     was a kind of jeep.  He drove me in the direction of my flat, and I

 8     thought I was going to my flat, in fact; however, he took me to a cellar

 9     in one of the four high-rise buildings that were next to the building

10     where my flat was.  And across the street was the elementary school

11     called at the time Ivan Goran Kovacic.  This is where they beat me even

12     worse, where they treated me badly.  They beat me unconscious.

13             At one point when I lost consciousness, they poured some dirty

14     water over my head from a bucket and they allowed me to come to.  Then he

15     took out a knife from a shield -- sheath at the belt and that was

16     actually a knife that was a component part of an automatic rifle used by

17     the JNA and it was a very sharp knife, like a razor.

18             He put the knife against my throat and then, on the 6th of May,

19     he told me that I was the eighth in a row of people that he was going to

20     kill by slitting their throats.  Then he took a pistol, put it in my

21     mouth, and then he said, It is better yet if I put the pistol in your

22     mouth and blow your head.  After that he gave up on the idea.

23             Another person who was an associate of his approached me because

24     I told them that I was a lieutenant-colonel employed at the Marshall Tito

25     barracks to which they responded that their duty was probably to report

Page 11184

 1     this to the military police.  He made a phone call.  I don't know who he

 2     called.  After this telephone conversation, he told me that he was very

 3     sorry for having to make this phone call because he would have been happy

 4     to cut my head off and to throw me in the yard of a nearby school.

 5        Q.   Can you tell me where were you transferred after that?

 6        A.   He called another person by phone, and they ordered them take me

 7     to Omar Maslic Street police station.  They took me there and left me in

 8     a corridor.  I stayed there for a short period of time, then military

 9     police arrived with a jeep and took me to the TO building or actually the

10     building that belonged to the TO before the --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please switch off the

12     microphone while the witness is talking.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Counsel, the interpreters ask that you please

14     switch off your mic when the witness is talking.  As a result, they did

15     not finish the witness's answer.  Please ask the witness to complete that

16     sentence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You said that they took you to the TO building, that was

19     something before that?

20        A.   The Territorial Defence building, that is what it was at the

21     time.  The Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22        Q.   Just tell me, please, because I'd like us to move on to some

23     other topics now.  How long were you locked up there, and what happened

24     after a while?  Were you exchanged?  Did you leave those premises?

25        A.   From the TO staff, I was transferred to the central prison that

Page 11185

 1     was previously the central prison of Bosnia-Herzegovina as well.  I was

 2     kept there at that prison as a JNA prisoner.  There were other officers

 3     in that prison too, officers of the JNA who had also been taken prisoner.

 4        Q.   Just a moment, please, we have a correction for the transcript.

 5     Was this a JNA prison or was this a prison where JNA members were

 6     detained?

 7        A.   It was a civilian prison of the Ministry of the Interior, whereas

 8     we as soldiers were being detained there when that war started, when

 9     these problems in Sarajevo started.  On the 4th floor, that was the last

10     floor where they put us officers at the time.

11        Q.   Among the prisoners, was there anyone from Dobrovojacka Street?

12     I don't want us to go to the incident that occurred on the 3rd of May.

13     Do you remember that?

14        A.   I did not have occasion to see anyone in that prison; I was in my

15     own cell all day long with two unknown men whom I first met then.  They

16     continued torturing us in that prison.  The torture was psychological

17     rather than physical.  Every evening we were transferred to a different

18     cell, and they were telling us that they would take us out to execute us.

19     It was very hard to survive in that situation.

20        Q.   Mr. Malcic, do you remember the day when you were exchanged and

21     where did that happen?

22        A.   I was exchanged on the 13th of May, 1992, on the separation line

23     at Stupska Petlja on the road towards Ilidza.  So that was the

24     metropolitan area of town.  There was a separation line already then

25     between the two warring sides, and the two commissions met up there, the

Page 11186

 1     exchange commissions.  I was exchanged for two officers whom I did not

 2     know and who were brought to that separation line.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

 4     be asked to speak into microphone, to come closer to the microphone.

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Malcic, the interpreters ask you to please get

 7     closer to the microphone so that they can hear what you are saying.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it can be a bit more

 9     comfortable for you if you pull up your chair.

10        Q.   Let us just have a correction here.  Do you remember how many of

11     you were exchanged on this side, JNA officers, and how many were on the

12     other side, how many persons, roughly; do you remember?

13        A.   As far as I can remember, there were four members of the JNA.  We

14     were exchanged for six members of the Territorial Defence, if I can call

15     it that way.  I mean, at first they were a paramilitary, but that's what

16     they called themselves.

17        Q.   Where did you go from there?  And just tell us actually where you

18     went from there, just give me a brief answer.

19        A.   I was taken to the Lukavica garrison clinic so that I would be

20     given medical assistance straight away.

21        Q.   How long were you in that clinic in Lukavica?

22        A.   I was just examined there.  They gave me certain therapy.  And

23     then I was returned to this building in Lukavica because the clinic, the

24     infirmary, had to deal with patients who were a lot more serious than me,

25     they were wounded.

Page 11187

 1        Q.   When you say a different building, is that within the barracks,

 2     the complex of the barracks?

 3        A.   It's within the Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks in Lukavica

 4     consisting of several buildings.  There was a building where soldiers

 5     slept, there was a building where the command was.  All that before the

 6     war.

 7        Q.   A moment ago when we were speaking about your CV, you said that

 8     you became a member of the Army of Republika Srpska on the 30th of May.

 9     Could you please tell us how that happened, how come you were in

10     Han Pijesak?

11        A.   From the 13th of May until the 30th of May, and I was exchanged

12     on the 13th of May, I was at the Lukavica barracks because I had to go to

13     the infirmary every day for medical treatment.  I was in contact with

14     officers whom I knew and who were also in Lukavica, and from them I heard

15     that the Presidency of the SFRY had made a decision and that was made

16     public on the 5th of May, I think, 1992.  It was made public through the

17     media, namely, that the JNA units should withdraw to the territory of the

18     FRY until the 19th of May, 1992, and that officers born in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina should remain in Bosnia in the

20     Army of Republika Srpska.  I think it had a different name then, at the

21     very beginning, but it's that army.

22             That was it as far as I was concerned.  I was born in Banja Luka

23     and that meant that I should stay in the Army of Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   Just a moment, please.  Do you know the date when the

25     Army of Republika Srpska was officially established?

Page 11188

 1        A.   Officially, the Army of Republika Srpska was established on the

 2     12th of May, 1992, at the Assembly of Republika Srpska in Banja Luka.

 3        Q.   Please go on.  What were you told and who was it that said that

 4     to you?

 5        A.   The 4th Corps was in the garrison in Sarajevo, JNA corps that is.

 6     And it was in Lukavica actually.  So I found out from these officers that

 7     this decision had been made and that we who would stay on in the

 8     Army of Republika Srpska would continue to receive income that amounted

 9     to our salaries while we were in the JNA.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just interrupt.  Thank you.  You may

11     proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Is that what you were told while you were still in Lukavica or

14     were you told later?

15        A.   Yes, while I was still in Lukavica that that decision had been

16     made that those who stayed would continue to receive their salary, so I

17     would receive my salary as if [Realtime transcript read in error

18     "salaries if"] I were still a JNA member.

19        Q.   So how is it that you came to Han Pijesak, who did you report to,

20     what happened there?

21        A.   On the 30th of May, 1992, an officer came, a signalsman, a

22     colonel whom I knew from earlier on because he was chief of

23     communications in the 2nd Military District.  He said, I had such trouble

24     finding you, because he heard from other officers that I had been

25     exchanged and that I was in Lukavica.  He said that I was supposed to go

Page 11189

 1     to the Main Staff, to the personnel department, that they did not have a

 2     single personnel officer there.

 3             Also, by way of a joke, he said, Well, that's your orders.  And I

 4     said, Yes, sir; again, by way of a joke.  And I got into the car and went

 5     with him to Han Pijesak.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Very sorry to interrupt, just a concern about the

 8     transcript before we lose page 13 from our screen.  At line 14 of

 9     page 13, I heard the English translation:  "... so I would receive my

10     salaries as if I were a -- as if I were still a JNA member.  But the word

11     "as" does not appear yet in the transcript.  I just want --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  What the interpreter said

13     was "my salary," in the singular, "as if I were still a JNA member."

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   It would be best if I asked the witness.  What is it that you

16     said about your salary?

17        A.   What I was told was that all of the JNA members who were to stay

18     on in the Army of Republika Srpska would have the right to receive a

19     salary and other income as if they were members of the JNA.

20        Q.   Tell me, who did you report to in Han Pijesak, and was the

21     Main Staff established by then?

22        A.   The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska consisted of a

23     small number of officers then in Han Pijesak.  They already knew about

24     the organisational structure of the Main Staff, because at the time they

25     worked on that, however, a final decision hadn't been made yet.

Page 11190

 1        Q.   Just a moment, please.  What was this final decision that hadn't

 2     been made yet?

 3        A.   There was no information printed yet, nothing.  There was just a

 4     draft, how this was supposed to be.  But we thought that things would be

 5     the way we decided then.

 6        Q.   In order to establish a Main Staff, what has to be done?  What

 7     kind of book, what kind of form?

 8        A.   Sorry, I didn't actually give you an answer as to who I reported

 9     to.

10        Q.   Please let's clarify this matter now, but I need it clarified for

11     the transcript, and then you will tell me.

12        A.   In order to establish a Main Staff in all units and an

13     organisational structure of the Army of Republika Srpska, it was

14     indispensable to first create an organisational structure, and then, on

15     that basis, to work out the establishment according to regulations that

16     were accessible to us at the time, and those were JNA regulations.

17        Q.   Very well.  Now let us go back to that question.  Who was it that

18     you reported to when you came to Han Pijesak and what were you told?

19        A.   I reported to Colonel Milan Lukic who was chief of the personnel

20     department in the administration for personnel and organisation.  He told

21     me that I was his assistant, that we were supposed to establish our

22     department, and for the time being it would be the two of us doing all

23     the work to the best of our ability and within the time we had.

24        Q.   Line 16 on page 15, he said that he said to you that you were

25     supposed to form, right?

Page 11191

 1        A.   That was our priority task.

 2        Q.   Where were your offices?

 3        A.   At the time, the offices of the Main Staff were in the area of

 4     the command of the former JNA, for war-time needs, that is.  We were put

 5     up where the officers -- or rather, where the soldiers were that provided

 6     security for the building.  There were quite a few officers there from

 7     the command of the 2nd Military District.  After what happened in

 8     Dobrovojacka Street where they had been taken prisoner and

 9     mistreated -- and there were casualties there as well, as you know; both

10     soldiers and officers were killed there.  Those who had been born on the

11     territory of the FRY said that they wanted to go to the territory of the

12     FRY, and then they were waiting for transportation so that they would be

13     transferred to the territory of the FRY in an organised fashion.  Their

14     families had already been taken there.

15        Q.   What was it that you decided then?  Could you go along with them

16     or not?

17        A.   Then and in Lukavica I decided that I would remain at the

18     Army of Republika Srpska because I was born in Banja Luka in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina; that's where my entire family and all my relatives

20     live.  And I even sent my children to say within the territory of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I didn't have any close relatives in Serbia.

22        Q.   What you mentioned a few moments ago in Han Pijesak from the

23     former JNA, did the -- did you stay there in those prefabricated

24     buildings, the ones that you referred to, did you stay there throughout

25     your service?

Page 11192

 1        A.   Up until the end of 1992, we were all in Crna Rijeka on those

 2     premises.

 3        Q.   Just a moment, please.  What you said a few moments ago, that was

 4     the previous command post of the JNA, is that what is called Crna Rijeka?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did I hear you say at page 16 line 22 that up

 7     until the end of 1992.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's what the witness

 9     said, "up until the end."  Yes, you understood it correctly.  "Up until

10     the end of 1992."

11        Q.   You were there in Crna Rijeka as well, right, in these

12     prefabricated buildings?

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   So where did you go after that, your sector, your service?

16        A.   That's what I was trying to say.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, we just need the witness's

18     answer to be recorded on page 17, line 6.  The witness's answer was

19     "Yes."

20        Q.   You see, Mr. Malcic, the interpreters are already telling us that

21     they did not hear what you said.  You will have to pause a bit before

22     starting to answer, and I will do the same.

23             My question was --

24        A.   Since we established the Main Staff already during 1992, more

25     officers came, so the personnel level of the Main Staff went up.  In

Page 11193

 1     those premises there simply wasn't enough room for the entire Main Staff.

 2        Q.   Where did you move then?

 3        A.   A decision was made to establish a rear command post of the

 4     Main Staff.  And it was decided that it will be in the Gora hotel in

 5     Han Pijesak.  The logistical sector was moved to this new command post,

 6     as well as the sector for organisation and mobilisation, the financial

 7     administration, and the sector for information and religious affairs.

 8             From December 1992 onwards until December 1996, I was in hotel

 9     Gora in Han Pijesak working at my sector.

10        Q.   Can you tell us roughly how far were Han Pijesak and hotel Gora

11     from Crna Rijeka?

12        A.   About 20 kilometres by road, if I remember correctly.

13        Q.   That was my question.  You said that at the beginning you were

14     appointed assistant chief for personnel affairs.  This personnel

15     department was subordinated to whom?

16        A.   Throughout the whole period, the personnel department was part

17     of, initially, administration for organisation and personnel issues, and

18     from mid-1993, of the sector for organisation and mobilisation issues.

19     And that name remained until the end.

20        Q.   In addition to your department, your sector, do you remember what

21     other departments there were?

22        A.   In addition to the personnel department, if I remember correctly,

23     there was a department for organisation and establishment, a section for

24     recruitment and mobilisation, and a information technology organ.

25        Q.   From your CV we saw that at one point you were appointed chief of

Page 11194

 1     the personnel department.  Who was the head of the sector that you just

 2     mentioned to which your department was subordinated, and during the war

 3     were there any changes in personnel terms in this post?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry, Mr. Lukic.  You are asking the

 5     question of subordination a second time.  The first time you asked for

 6     it -- you asked it was at page 18, line 8 to 9.  It has never been

 7     answered.  Secondly, this question that you are now asking has got so

 8     many questions that I think you should break it up into pieces.  You

 9     know, you are saying from your CV, and then who was the head, and then

10     during the war who was subordinated -- to whom was he subordinated.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Let me just see whether an answer

12     was given or not.

13        Q.   Your personnel department was subordinated to whom?

14        A.   At the beginning, to the chief of administration for organisation

15     and personnel.  Later, this name was changed to sector for organisation

16     and mobilisation issues, but their remit actually remained the same.

17        Q.   All right.  You said that your direct superior was Milan Lukic as

18     the head of the personnel department?

19        A.   When I joined --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat the answer.

21     There was a slight overlapping.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness is requested to please repeat as there

23     was overlapping.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you please repeat your last answer.

Page 11195

 1        A.   In May 1992, when I joined the General Staff -- actually, the

 2     Main Staff of the VRS - there's some confusion between these two terms

 3     sometimes - I was assistant chief of the personnel department who at the

 4     time was Milan Lukic.

 5        Q.   My question was who he was subordinated to.

 6        A.   He was subordinated to the head of the administration for

 7     organisation and personnel who at the time was Mico Grubor.

 8        Q.   Was Mico Grubor constantly indisposed until the end of the war,

 9     or was he replaced by someone?

10        A.   He was the assistant --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please speak slowly, there are

12     two many titles.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters are asking that the witness

14     please speak slowly.  There are too many titles that are being mentioned.

15     Can we go back to try and start that answer.  "He was the assistant ..."

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Malcic, since there's a lot of information, can you tell us

18     what Mr. Mico Grubor's function was?

19        A.   We did some re-organisation at the very beginning.

20        Q.   What was his position on the Main Staff of the VRS?

21        A.   From May 1992 until mid-1993, he was chief of administration for

22     organisation and personnel issues.  In mid-1993, there were some changes

23     in our establishment so this title was changed.  So he became assistant

24     chief of the Main Staff of the VRS in charge of organisation,

25     mobilisation, and personnel issues.

Page 11196

 1        Q.   Was he replaced at any point in time?

 2        A.   That's what you asked me before.

 3        Q.   You don't have to repeat everything, just give us clear-cut

 4     answers.  How long he held this position and who succeeded him?

 5        A.   Mico Grubor remained in this position until September 1994.  He

 6     was succeeded by Petar Skrbic, and he remained in that post until the end

 7     of the war.

 8        Q.   When you became head of the personnel department, who was your

 9     direct superior?

10        A.   When Milan Lukic, due to health reasons --

11        Q.   Let us be very clear with questions and answers.  We don't have

12     to go into the reasons of some -- why something happened.

13        A.   When I was head of the personnel department, my direct superior

14     was Mico Grubor, and later on Mr. Petar Skrbic.

15        Q.   What were your initial tasks once you were appointed to this post

16     in the personnel department?  What did you have to do at the beginning?

17        A.   When I joined the Main Staff in May or June 1992 along with

18     Milan Lukic, we worked on establishing this personnel department.  Then

19     we proceeded with collecting information from lower ranking units of the

20     VRS about which officers of the former JNA remained in Republika Srpska,

21     because the task of our department was to set up records and gather

22     documents for the purpose of regulating the status of officers and

23     civilians who had been in the JNA but now were in the VRS after the

24     20th of May which was the dead-line for the JNA to withdraw to the FRY.

25        Q.   Who kept records about ordinary troops and about reserve officers

Page 11197

 1     of the JNA; did that have anything to do with your department?

 2        A.   No, it didn't.  These records were kept by lower-ranking units

 3     for their own purposes, and they did it in compliance with the

 4     then-applicable rules and regulations, the ones that we applied at the

 5     time.

 6        Q.   I'm going to show you a document now.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter document

 8     of Defence 00826D.

 9        Q.   You are going to see on your screen a document, Mr. Malcic, and

10     I'm going to ask you what this document is.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please first look at page 1.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are both in the B/C/S.  Can we have the

13     English version, please.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move to page 2 or, rather,

15     the last one in both versions.  This document consists of four pages

16     altogether.

17        Q.   Mr. Malcic, are you familiar with this document?  Can you tell us

18     in a few words what this is?

19        A.   These were the orders of the commander of the Main Staff of the

20     VRS to proceed with the establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska.

21     As I can see here, an organisational structure of the VRS is already in

22     place.

23        Q.   Who was engaged in drafting this order and the organisation?

24        A.   Those involved in drafting this order was actually the product of

25     a team-work by all the officers from the Main Staff but subject to

Page 11198

 1     approval by the corps commanders, not consent.  I correct myself,

 2     assistance rather than consent.

 3        Q.   I'm just going to go through some basic structural units.  Number

 4     one is Main Staff.

 5        A.   I can't see that on the screen.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's go back to page 1 then.

 7        Q.   So item number 1 on page 1 specifies the Main Staff of the

 8     Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as it was called at

 9     the time, then we have operation groups as follows.  I'm going to read

10     them out first.  The 1st Krajina Corps, then on the next page we have the

11     2nd Krajina Corps.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 2, please.  And

13     in English please as well.

14        Q.   The corps command was in Drvar.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then can we move on to the next page

16     in B/C/S and let's stay on the same page in English.

17        Q.   We can see here that the next one is Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,

18     followed by the Eastern Bosnia Corps.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to the next page

20     in both languages.

21        Q.   Then we have Herzegovina Corps, and then we have branch units and

22     institutions, logistics units, and air force and anti-aircraft defence as

23     a separate organisational unit.

24             First of all, tell me whether these corps as listed here in this

25     document dated the 16th of June, 1992, remained with this same structure

Page 11199

 1     until the end of war?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Was another corps formed in the meantime, and do you know roughly

 4     when?

 5        A.   To my recollection towards the end of 1992, the Drina Corps was

 6     formed.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tender this document to be admitted

 8     into evidence, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

10     please be given an exhibit number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D00290, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  290, thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I'd like to have us look at another

14     document now on our screens.  It is from the Defence 65 ter list, 00825D.

15     [In English] 825D.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, are you familiar with this document?

17        A.   Could you please zoom in a bit?  I can barely see it.  Yes.

18        Q.   What is this document, Mr. Malcic?

19        A.   This is a document that is more detailed than the previous one.

20        Q.   In which sense detailed?

21        A.   Here we have the organisational structure of the Main Staff with

22     the codes that we used from the former JNA for the establishment of such

23     units.  Every unit has its own number in peacetime, and in war they have

24     their peacetime location, their mobilisation location, they have their

25     own military post code in peacetime and in war time and also their

Page 11200

 1     numbers, their names.  We did not invent them; they were already in the

 2     code tables on the basis of which information was provided earlier on in

 3     the Yugoslav People's Army.

 4        Q.   Is this information that entered your establishment when the

 5     establishment of the VRS was made?

 6        A.   This was entered into the establishment information that we

 7     printed later on.

 8        Q.   You can see here that the date is the 18th of June, 1992, when

 9     this order was made.  Do you know roughly how long this work went on in

10     establishment, and once this establishment was completed here in the

11     Main Staff, what was done then?

12        A.   This was the basic document that made it possible to make it

13     possible to move on to the actual organisation and establishment of the

14     Army of Republika Srpska as spelled out here.  We then worked day and

15     night in co-operation with all officers of the Army of Republika Srpska

16     from the Main Staff and from subordinate units who could provide adequate

17     assistance to us.  Because the basic objective was to set up

18     establishment as soon as possible and to link up all units into an

19     organisational hole to have a proper system of command from platoon level

20     all the way up to the level of the Main Staff of the

21     Army of Republika Srpska.

22        Q.   Just a moment, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see at page 24, line 23, you are interpreted as

24     having said the date of this order is the 18th of June, 1992.  Is that

25     the date or am I seeing -- looking at something different on my screen?

Page 11201

 1     Mine is dated the 16th of June.  By a commander of the Main Staff of the

 2     Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina 16th of June, 1992.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] When you look at the numbers in

 4     B/C/S, Your Honours, well, the witness knows, perhaps he can say for

 5     himself.  It's better if he says what date it is rather than have us

 6     interpret it.  Could we please zoom in on the date.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can see the date in B/C/S.  Thank you so much.

 8     So it means the translation is incorrect.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not quite sure.  I'm

10     looking at the document here on my Case Manager's screen, perhaps it is

11     the 16th.

12        Q.   Was this document passed on the same day like the previous one,

13     Mr. Malcic?  Maybe you are right, perhaps it is actually the 16th.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the date please be enlarged in

15     B/C/S and I'll ask Mr. Malcic too whether he remembers perhaps.  Because

16     we know the previous document is the 16th of June.

17        A.   Now, whether it's the 16th or 18th, it's pretty dark here, so

18     it's either the 16th or the 18th.  I think it's the 18th, rather.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it's the 18th as well.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you look at that figure 18 and the figure that

21     denotes the month, would you say they look alike or don't they?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It certainly happened in June.  Now

23     I can see it; it's the 18th of June, 1992.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  You may proceed, sir.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Poor photocopies.

Page 11202

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can take the break now,

 2     or, rather, I'd like to tender it first.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 4     given an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D00291, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             And you said that would be a convenient moment.  We'll take a

 8     break and come back at quarter to 11.00.

 9             Court adjourned.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   When the establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska was

15     completed, what did you do then in relation to the personnel affairs that

16     you actually dealt with?

17        A.   When the establishment was put in place, I, as personnel officer,

18     immediately started giving specific duties to specific soldiers and

19     officers as their superiors had decided.

20        Q.   Later on we are going to analyse the army, the Law on the Army of

21     Republika Srpska, but do you perhaps know when this Law on the Army of

22     Republika Srpska was passed?

23        A.   I think it was the end of June 1992, but I'm not sure.

24        Q.   Tell us, according to the rules of the former JNA, what does the

25     personnel dossier of an active-duty officer or soldier contain?

Page 11203

 1        A.   There were instructions as to what it should contain.  Basic data

 2     is entered immediately upon completion of military school, including the

 3     grades they had, then their first performance assessment as soon as they

 4     start working, and then later every change in terms of their service was

 5     entered into the dossier file.  There were two actually dossiers, DP 1

 6     and DP 2.

 7        Q.   Could you please tell me what they were marked?

 8        A.   DP 1 and DP 2.

 9        Q.   Fine, yes, it's there in the transcript.

10        A.   Personnel dossier number 1 and personnel dossier number 2.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Lukic, please.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Okay, Your Honour.  Sorry.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] My question was whether there was -- the

15     abbreviation was DPP 1 or DPP 2 and the witness said they called it in

16     abbreviated terms.

17        A.   Personnel dossier.

18        Q.   Do you remember during the former JNA where were these dossiers

19     kept, DP 1 and DP 2?

20        A.   DP 1 was in the personnel administration, and DP 2 was kept with

21     the personnel organ, the officer in charge of regulating a particular

22     person's status in the service.

23        Q.   When you say personnel administration, what do you mean?

24        A.   The personnel administration of the JNA, while I worked in the

25     JNA that is.

Page 11204

 1        Q.   Was that in the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, this

 2     personal administration where DP 1 was kept or was that within the unit?

 3        A.   The personnel administration was either in the General Staff or

 4     the ministry; I cannot remember exactly now.  But at any rate, it was at

 5     the highest level of control and command of the JNA.

 6        Q.   When you say the officer in charge who kept DP 2, can you give us

 7     a specific example when you were in the JNA at the centre of higher

 8     schools in Sarajevo?  Where was your DP 1 and where was your DP 2?

 9        A.   My DP 1 was at the personnel administration, and the DP 2 was

10     kept by the deputy chief of the General Staff for the KoV --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

12     sentence.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreter didn't hear the end of the

14     sentence.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] DP 2 was kept with the deputy

16     chief of the General Staff for KoV where the personnel organ was.  That

17     was the organisational organ of the General Staff of the JNA.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What does KoV stand for?

19             [Microphone not activated]

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dossier of personnel information

21     number 2.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   When the JNA was withdrawn from the territory of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, in relation to the units that were in the

25     2nd Military District beforehand, where were these DP 2s, these personnel

Page 11205

 1     files, at the moment before withdrawal and where were they after

 2     withdrawal?

 3        A.   Before withdrawal, DP 2 for NCOs as far as I can remember --

 4     well, it was the corps commander who regulated the situation for

 5     non-commissioned officers, so this DP 2 was kept by the personnel organ

 6     at the corps command.  For all officers, this DP 2 was at the command of

 7     the 2nd Military District as it was known at the time in Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   These parts of personnel dossiers, when the JNA units left

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, did they stay in Sarajevo or did they accompany the

10     unit as it were?

11        A.   I'm not clear on that, what happened to the DP 2s that were kept

12     by the personnel organ of the 2nd Military District.  Because on the

13     2nd of May or, rather, on the 3rd of May, the incident at

14     Dobrovojacka Street happened where many officers and soldiers got killed

15     and the entire documentation and materiel resources that were part of

16     that convoy were destroyed.  I do not know about any of that being taken

17     out of Sarajevo before that incident.

18        Q.   Perhaps I'm not being clear.  This documentation, was it supposed

19     to leave the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina as the JNA withdraw or was

20     it supposed to remain in, say, in Han Pijesak?

21        A.   It was supposed to leave with that unit to the same location

22     where the unit was being sent and then a decision would ultimately be

23     made what would be done with the documentation.

24        Q.   Now, in the personnel department of the Main Staff of the

25     Army of Republika Srpska, did you make any personnel documentation and

Page 11206

 1     personnel dossiers?  How did you deal with this personnel information

 2     then?

 3        A.   Immediately in June, an order was made on the powers of officers

 4     for regulating the status in service.  I think that's what the document

 5     was called.  Every officer in charge would establish his dossier for a

 6     professional military soldier.  I, in the personnel department,

 7     established an original dossier, as I said, for all military officers who

 8     were supposed to regulate the status of persons serving for the chief of

 9     Main Staff.  From lower ranking subordinates, I received certain

10     documents that I used for regulating their status, and I was supposed to

11     look into how this was dealt with in subordinate units.

12             We had our own database in the computer, and this was

13     indispensable for us so that we could regulate the status of each and

14     every professional officer and every civilian serving in the

15     Army of Republika Srpska.  Those who stayed on after the JNA withdrew

16     into the FRY.

17        Q.   You mentioned a moment ago that in June an order was passed about

18     regulating status in service.  Whose order was this; of the

19     Army of Yugoslavia or the Army of Republika Srpska?

20        A.   Immediately after the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska was

21     adopted, bylaws were supposed to be passed and the minister of defence of

22     the Army of Republika Srpska passed that regulation for regulating the

23     status of military officers in the Army of Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   Very well.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like us to have a

Page 11207

 1     document from our 65 ter list, or, rather, the Prosecution 65 ter list.

 2     9230 is the document I'd like to have.

 3             Your Honour, this is the organisational schematic that was used

 4     by Mr. Harmon in his opening statement.  I am not going to tender it, but

 5     I would like the witness to use this schematic in order to deal with

 6     certain questions.

 7             65 ter 9230 is what I'd like to have now.

 8        Q.   This is in English, Mr. Malcic, but I'm going to ask you

 9     questions about particular individuals, certain officers.  I would like

10     to know whether the persons I'm going to mention to you now were members

11     of the Army of Republika Srpska from the very outset when it was

12     established and during the course of 1992, so that first period as it

13     were.

14             First I'm going to ask you about General Ratko Mladic, whether he

15     was in the Army of Republika Srpska from the very outset?

16        A.   Yes, from the very outset when the Army of Republika Srpska was

17     established, he was in the Army of Republika Srpska, and he was born in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19        Q.   Please just give me brief answers.  I don't want to go into other

20     details now.

21             Manojlo Milovanovic?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Radivoje Miletic?

24        A.   From June 1992, I think.

25        Q.   Jovan Maric?

Page 11208

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Zdravko Tolimir?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Milan Gvero?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Mico Grubor?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Petar Skrbic?

 9        A.   I think he came during 1993.

10        Q.   Djordje Djukic?

11        A.   From the beginning of the war.

12        Q.   Stevan Tomic?

13        A.   From the beginning.

14        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you about the commanders and the chiefs of

15     staff of corps.

16             Talic Momir?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Bosko Kelecevic?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Grujo Boric?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Mico Vlaisavljevic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Novica Simic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 11209

 1        Q.   Budimir Gavric?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Dragomir Milosevic?

 4        A.   As far as I can remember, he was there from the beginning.  I'm

 5     not sure though.

 6        Q.   Stanislav Galic?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Radovan Grubac?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Vlado Spremo?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Radislav Krstic?

13        A.   He came a bit later, but he was there in 1992.

14        Q.   Milutin Skocajic?

15        A.   From the beginning.

16        Q.   Zivomere Ninkovic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Bozo Novak?

19        A.   Yes.  If you allow me, when I say "yes," that means June, the

20     month of June, when I was in the Main Staff and when I knew whether they

21     were serving in the Army of Republika Srpska, that is, June 1992.

22        Q.   Thank you.  What about Bogdan Subotic, what was his position?

23        A.   Bogdan Subotic worked in the education centre in Banja Luka.

24     After the Government of Republika Srpska was formed, he became the

25     minister of defence.

Page 11210

 1        Q.   What about Dusan Kovacevic?

 2        A.   He came later.  At first he was with the Main Staff from the

 3     beginning, but when Bogdan Subotic was appointed advisor to the president

 4     of the republic for military issue, then Kovacevic took the position of

 5     minister of defence of Republika Srpska.

 6        Q.   Can you give us some numerical information about the level of

 7     staffing of the Main Staff and the status of these highest positions.

 8     Were all these highest positions filled in 1992?

 9        A.   Immediately upon the adoption and the application of the

10     establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska, but we had only so many

11     officers that was sufficient to fill the basic positions because that

12     created problems for us.  I can't give you any percentage information;

13     that would be pure guess-work.

14        Q.   Did you get new uniforms and new insignia once you became a

15     member of the VRS?

16        A.   Immediately at the beginning, that is to say, in the summer

17     of 1992, we didn't have new uniforms of the VRS, but in June we decided

18     which insignia the VRS was going to wear.  We had patches worn on our

19     sleeves in the form of a tri-colour of Republika Srpska, and we had the

20     same insignia on our caps.

21        Q.   What did you do in order to improve the staffing of officers, the

22     level of staffing of officers in the VRS at the beginning?

23        A.   We immediately set up our personnel records of all the officers

24     starting from sergeant to generals who were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina or

25     who had been sent for training from Bosnia-Herzegovina to other schools

Page 11211

 1     and education centres of the JNA.  We believed that these officers, based

 2     on their place of birth and following the break-up of the SFRY, became

 3     citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that it was their place to become

 4     commanding officers of one of the armies that was being formed in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  As we all know, at that time we had three armies of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina:  The HVO which was made up of mostly Croats; then

 7     there was the B&H TO, Territorial Defence as they called themselves,

 8     which was the army of the Muslim people; and finally the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska made up of the majority of Serbs.

10             But I have to note that, at the beginning, this last army had

11     Croats and Muslims as well who were in favour of Yugoslav option.  That

12     was at the beginning.

13        Q.   When you say that initially in the Army of Republika Srpska there

14     were Croats and Muslims, are you referring to ordinary soldier or are you

15     referring to officers or active-duty servicemen?

16        A.   I know that there were professional officers of these

17     ethnicities.

18        Q.   Before the VRS was formed in the late 1991 and 1992, were there

19     any cases of certain officers leaving the JNA and joining the armies

20     above-mentioned?

21        A.   In 1991 when the war in Slovenia and Croatia started and later

22     from April 1992 in Bosnia-Herzegovina as well, professional officers of

23     Croatian and Muslim ethnicities, both soldiers in war units of the JNA

24     units deployed in those territories, and the officers left their units of

25     their own volition and joined their respective ethnic armies.

Page 11212

 1             We in the personnel organs at the time after a certain period of

 2     time, I think it was five working days, decided that once somebody failed

 3     to report with their unit, we were obliged to institute proceedings to

 4     terminate their service in the JNA due to absence without leave.  And

 5     such individual's service was terminated in the JNA because we knew that

 6     they had joined these newly formed armies in these new republics.  Only a

 7     few or handful of officers, pro-Yugoslav oriented officers, remained in

 8     the JNA until its break-up.  In early 1992, there were such officers in

 9     the Army of Republika Srpska as well.

10        Q.   What happened to those Croat and Muslim officers who were in the

11     Army of Republika Srpska in the initial period?

12        A.   We, the officers in Bosnia-Herzegovina, thought that there won't

13     be any major war, that everything would be over in a very short period of

14     time.  However, with the passage of time, we realised that this was not

15     going to be the case, and these officers finally realised that it's not

16     their place to be in the army that was fighting the Muslim and the

17     Croatian armies.  Some of them wanted to join the Yugoslav Army, the VJ,

18     and some of them wanted to stay with the VRS until the very end.  And I

19     think these people, the latter group, came from mixed marriages.  We

20     didn't prevent them from remaining with the VRS.  We first told them and

21     gave approval to go on annual leave and then to be sent to the VJ.  We

22     just sent them on an annual leave to give them ample time to think it

23     through.  That was about for a month, and after that they would decide

24     whether to join this new army and regulate the status.  Because, at the

25     time, the VJ was willing to accept these kind of individuals.

Page 11213

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we now have document from

 3     65 ter list of the Defence 003 -- sorry, yes, 0038D.  00038D.

 4        Q.   We are going to see the English version shortly.  This is a

 5     document issued by the Eastern Bosnian Corps and sent to the Main Staff

 6     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It's dated the 25th of June, 1992.

 7             Mr. Malcic, can you tell us, are you familiar with this document,

 8     and what was the purpose of this document sent to the Main Staff?

 9        A.   I am familiar with this document.  There were several documents

10     of the same type at the beginning in June and July 1992.  We acquired

11     information in a variety of ways relating to the officers who were born

12     in Bosnia-Herzegovina but who were serving in the Yugoslav Army.  Some of

13     them contacted us by telephone personally, expressing their wish to join

14     the VRS, but they didn't know how.  We put all this on paper.  And

15     through the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, we sent to the

16     personnel administration of the VJ a request to allow these officers to

17     join the VRS because there were quite a few of them.  And we thought that

18     everybody who was born in Bosnia-Herzegovina is entitled to join the VRS.

19        Q.   Who did these officers contact?  What was the procedure in place

20     at the time, and was the procedure altered subsequently?

21        A.   Initially, these volunteers who wanted to come would go

22     immediately to a corps command in their birth place, where they wanted to

23     be, and where they thought they were most needed.  Some of them contacted

24     us in Han Pijesak as well.  They declared themselves to be professional

25     servicemen who wished to be assigned to wherever they are most needed by

Page 11214

 1     the VRS.  However, there were those who, for various family reasons,

 2     didn't join the VRS.  They rather decided to wait for providing for their

 3     family and then after that they would come and join the VRS because they

 4     thought they belonged there.

 5             After the withdrawal of the JNA in June from Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 6     many families were accommodated or placed in barracks as refugees.  And

 7     even to this date, some of these families are still living in those

 8     VJ barracks which are not fit for living, because they didn't manage to

 9     solve their housing problems, and many of them are still living in rented

10     flats in Yugoslavia.

11        Q.   Who appointed them to serve in the VRS?

12        A.   All the officers who subsequently joined the VRS were referred

13     to, I think, under Article 271, to the Army of Republika Srpska.  An

14     officer in charge of the VRS would appoint all these officers according

15     to war time and peacetime establishment adopted in June 1992 in

16     compliance with the decree of the minister of defence that I mentioned

17     earlier.

18        Q.   What were the criteria that this officer in charge applied?  For

19     example, if somebody came to Han Pijesak, what kind of criteria were

20     applied for their appointment?

21        A.   Once these officers came to Han Pijesak to the Main Staff, first

22     we listened to their wishes, then we reviewed their education background,

23     their rank, and we reviewed whether he was needed in his birth place.

24     And, wherever it was possible, we would point them in the places where

25     their families lived, of course depending on the rank and the need of the

Page 11215

 1     service.  And once we have conducted these interviews, this kind of

 2     officer would say, Yes, I would accept this appointment.

 3             The main criterion was to send them to their birth place.  That

 4     was the strongest point because they were willing to defend their

 5     families, their parents, and everybody else living in their birth place.

 6     And that is why they joined those units.  There was a real danger of

 7     their families being killed.

 8        Q.   Mr. Malcic, we saw that throughout the war you were stationed at

 9     Han Pijesak, but we didn't discuss what happened to your family after the

10     May events in 1992.  Did your family go to Serbia or elsewhere?  Can you

11     just tell us briefly.

12        A.   As far as I remember, I think I said earlier that I had sent my

13     daughters to Gacko.  My wife later managed somehow with difficulties to

14     leave Sarajevo and was reunited with our children.  I found an

15     appropriate accommodation for my family in Banja Luka where my father,

16     mother, three brothers, and my other relatives lived there in Banja Luka.

17        Q.   You said that your wife had tremendous difficulties in leaving

18     Sarajevo.  Do you know who prevented her from going out?

19        A.   After I was exchanged, when I reached Lukavica, I found out over

20     the telephone - because there was a telephone that made it possible for

21     us to contact persons in Sarajevo that was then under the command of the

22     so-called TO army.  My wife told me over the telephone that all the

23     streets were blocked by armed persons who did not wear any kind of

24     uniform or some of them had some black uniforms.

25             They were breaking into apartments primarily of military

Page 11216

 1     personnel and mistreating families.  Some groups came to our apartment

 2     where she was.  They were armed with long rifles.  They would fire a

 3     burst of gun-fire through the window and then they would say, Madam,

 4     where are your weapons?  Or, Who was firing from your window?  Who was

 5     firing at our soldiers?

 6             In one of these groups, there was a man who knew my wife.  He

 7     knew her at the company where she had worked, and he said to her, You

 8     have to leave as soon as possible because you are a target of these

 9     groups of ours.  I'm going to be with this group in this area only for

10     another few days.  If you don't leave, you are really going to be in bad

11     trouble.

12             A day or two later, a patrol that operated between my building

13     and the building right next door was not on that road.  Our assumption is

14     that it was thanks to that man that they intentionally went elsewhere so

15     that my wife would be able to leave that check-point, like another lady

16     from the neighbourhood, and reach Serb territory.  That was the last

17     attempt to leave Sarajevo to the best of my knowledge.

18        Q.   Please relax a bit, Mr. Malcic.  I just put this question, but I

19     would now like to go back to another topic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Actually, Your Honours, may I please

21     tender this document first.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we admit it, I'd like to understand in the

23     main heading it says Main Staff of the SR and then it's explained as

24     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina army.  Then the paragraph

25     following at the end of it talks of officers are serving in the Army of

Page 11217

 1     the SR Yugoslavia.  What does that mean?

 2     Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia?  And what does that mean?  FRY?  Or

 3     what does it mean?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could deal with

 5     it, Your Honours.  That would be the best.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In June 1992, Republika Srpska was

 7     first called Serbian Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The

 8     Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina rather.  And later on it changed its

 9     name into Republika Srpska.  That is why these terms overlap, as it were.

10     The SRJ -- or, rather, the FRY was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

11     that was established consisting of Serbia and Montenegro, so that's that

12     name.  And before the break-up of Yugoslavia, the name was the

13     Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which is the SFRY.  So there is

14     a lot of similarity involved.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness now

16     explained the SR to us.  In the English translation it says in

17     parentheses "socialist republic," but it's not in B/C/S.  It is actually

18     an abbreviation for the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in this case.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the Muslims and Croats had

20     just declared the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Not more than that.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  Now, the SR Yugoslavia, is that the

22     Serb Republic of Yugoslavia and what is that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is the Federal Republic of

25     Yugoslavia, "Savezna Republika Jugoslavija."

Page 11218

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Consisting of

 2     Serbia and Montenegro.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  That's clear.  The document is

 4     admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00212 [sic], Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Two ... 212 or 292?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  292, I apologise.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Malcic, since you worked in the personnel department, could

10     you please give me a general answer so that the Trial Chamber and I could

11     have a general picture.  Out of the active-duty personnel who remained in

12     the Army of Republika Srpska or who were later sent to the

13     Army of Republika Srpska, their families, the majority of their families,

14     did they have the same fate like your family?  Did they remain in the

15     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  And if not, where did they go,

16     generally speaking?

17        A.   After the war conflicts broke out, everyone sought shelter

18     wherever they thought it would be best for their own family.  Well, a

19     "safe place," under quotation marks, if I can put it that way.  Most of

20     the families of the professional officers of the JNA went to the newly

21     established Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and a smaller number even went

22     to Macedonia because there were officers who married in those areas, so

23     they went to stay with their in-laws, their families.  A smaller part

24     remained in the territory of Republika Srpska as was the case with my

25     family and others who constituted a very small percentage, and they

Page 11219

 1     stayed for variety of reasons, family reasons, employment, and so on and

 2     so forth.  A variety of reasons.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter

 4     [In English] 00188D.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you see this on your screen, Mr. Malcic?

 6     Can you see this document?

 7        A.   Now.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the English back as

 9     well, please.

10        Q.   So this is a call-up for service in the Army of Republika Srpska.

11     Just a moment, please.  Up here it says Obrenovic, Milomira Dragan, that

12     is hand-written, and who signed this at the bottom in his own hand?  Can

13     you see that?

14        A.   General Ratko Mladic.

15        Q.   Underneath it says Mico Grubor?

16        A.   It says certified by, but it was signed by General Ratko Mladic

17     in his own hand, and then it is certified by Colonel Mico Grubor.

18        Q.   Tell us what this is now.

19        A.   We received information on the basis of a unit that had been

20     founded in his place of birth, that there was a certain

21     Captain Dragan Obrenovic who was there and who should come to join us.

22     But the suggestion made was to send this call-up to him personally so

23     that he could respond and come.

24             We wrote this up.  It was signed by the commander of the

25     Main Staff, General Ratko Mladic.

Page 11220

 1        Q.   It says here that he should report to the command of

 2     Tactical Group Visegrad or directly to the Main Staff of the

 3     Army of Republika Srpska Han Pijesak barracks.  Who was it that said that

 4     he should report to the Tactical Group of Visegrad?

 5        A.   He was probably born in that area there, around Zvornik,

 6     Visegrad, I don't know exactly where, in that area.  The Drina Corps had

 7     been established, and the Drina Corps was the one that ordered him to

 8     report to the Tactical Group Visegrad.  Maybe he did report to us in Han

 9     Pijesak, but we deployed him in the Drina Corps where he wanted to go

10     anyway because that's the territory where he was born.

11        Q.   In which period during the course of the war, if we say that it

12     started in May 1992 and went on until 1995, during which period of war

13     did most of these officers come at this later date in the

14     Army of Republika Srpska?

15        A.   The very beginning of the war, that is to say, in the summer of

16     1992 and the autumn of 1992, that's when most of the officers came

17     because they felt it was necessary for them to join the

18     Army of Republika Srpska.  It was primarily at their own initiative.  A

19     smaller number had to be persuade to come.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

21     admitted into evidence, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document it admitted into evidence.  May it

23     please be given an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D00293, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 11221

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I asked you a moment ago about the Law on the

 3     Army of Republika Srpska.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have on our screens

 5     now document P191.

 6        Q.   Mr. Malcic, this is the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska that

 7     was passed on the 1st of June, 1992, as it says here.  Were you aware of

 8     this law while you were in the Army of Republika Srpska?

 9        A.   This is the basic document on the basis that we actually worked

10     in the Army of Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   Article 1, can you see Article 1?  Would you like it to be zoomed

12     in a bit?  We don't really have to read it.  Could you just tell us who

13     is it that the Army of Republika Srpska defends?

14        A.   It says unequivocally here that the Army of the

15     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina defends the sovereignty

16     territorial integrity, independence, and constitutional order of the

17     Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina because that is what it was called in

18     the beginning of the war.

19        Q.   We don't have to read it because, as I said, it is written here

20     and the Judges are aware of it.  The parties are also aware of what is

21     written here.  Now I'm going to ask you about Article 2.  You don't have

22     to read it out loud.  You, as a former JNA officer, what did you do in

23     the Army of Republika Srpska?

24        A.   I was a professional soldier in the Army of Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   In Article 3, the term "active-duty personnel" is used.  Did you

Page 11222

 1     consider yourself an active-duty person in the Army of Republika Srpska

 2     on the basis of this law?

 3        A.   In the Yugoslav People's Army, I think that we were called active

 4     military officers while we were in the JNA.  Later on, the term

 5     "professional" was introduced so then that created a bit of confusion.

 6     We don't know exactly in which period what term was used, but it's

 7     basically one in the same thing, active-duty officer and professional

 8     officer.

 9        Q.   I just asked you whether you consider yourself to be an

10     active-duty military officer on the basis of this article of the

11     army -- the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter cannot hear the answer.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Active-duty military personnel,

14     yes, we simply copied that term that was well established by then.  It's

15     not that we invented it.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Article 4 speaks of relations within the service, and I already

18     asked you who your superior was and you told us.  Did you have a

19     subordinate in the Army of Republika Srpska according to this law?  Did

20     you have anyone who was subordinated to you?

21        A.   In the Army of Republika Srpska, there was the principle of

22     subordination and singleness of command.  As chief of the personnel

23     department, I had my superior and I had my subordinates, and these were

24     persons who worked in the personnel department where I was chief or head.

25        Q.   Very well.

Page 11223

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have a look at

 2     Article 153.  In B/C/S it's page 15 and in English it's 22.

 3        Q.   Article 153 speaks of assignment of duties, and it says:

 4             Active military personnel should be assigned to military units

 5     and institutions and should be appointed to appropriate duties, i.e.,

 6     establishment posts, according to the needs of the service?

 7             Who is it that appoints a military person on the basis of this

 8     law?

 9        A.   According to this law, it is the officer in charge on the basis

10     of a decision of the minister of defence is the one who appoints

11     active-duty military personnel in accordance with the person's rank and

12     education.

13        Q.   In which army?

14        A.   In the Army of Republika Srpska.  Here it says in the

15     Army of Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but that's one in the

16     same army, just different names were used in different periods.

17        Q.   Let us just look at Article 156.  We are going to need it later

18     on in relation to some documents.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's on the next page in English,

20     please.

21        Q.   This article speaks about the notion of stand-in officer.  Can

22     you tell us what this means and how this was regulated in the Law on the

23     Army of Republika Srpska?

24        A.   An officer who is temporarily prevented from exercising his

25     duties, most often due to health reasons, can be replaced, so to speak,

Page 11224

 1     by a stand-in officer who will perform his duties until his return to

 2     duty.  The second paragraph says that a stand-in may be appointed to a

 3     vacant establishment post as well and that this could last for six months

 4     based on the decision of the immediate superior and then for another six

 5     months if this post is not filled.

 6             So the stand-in can only remain in this post for up to a year.

 7        Q.   Were these the regulations that an officer in charge in the VRS

 8     regulated state related issues for active-duty personnel?

 9        A.   The Law of the Army of the VRS served as the basis in terms of

10     regulations that governed the appointment in the Army of

11     Republika Srpska.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at

13     Article 369.  B/C/S page 36, English page 54.

14        Q.   Article 369, which deals with competence for addressing relations

15     in the service.  You don't need to read it out.  I'm mostly interested in

16     promotions.  Under this law, who was deciding on the promotions to the

17     rank of general, and who decided on promotions to lower ranks?

18        A.   Decrees on appointment to the rank of generals was issued by the

19     president of the Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   Who was that?

21        A.   That was President Radovan Karadzic.  The rank of the colonel and

22     their status-related issues were decided by the minister of defence of

23     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as stipulated in this law.

24     Promotions to other ranks from sergeant to lieutenant-colonel was decided

25     by the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.  I'm going to use the term

Page 11225

 1     VRS because the previous one lasted only for a short period of time.

 2        Q.   I have finished with this document for now.  We are now going to

 3     move to another topic.

 4             Mr. Malcic, can you tell us, how did you receive your salary

 5     while you were in the JNA in Sarajevo?

 6        A.   As an active-duty officer of the JNA serving in the

 7     Sarajevo garrison centre for higher education, I received my salary

 8     through the military computer centre of the JNA.  At the time, we had

 9     several such centres in Belgrade, Zagreb, Sarajevo, and I think there was

10     one in Ljubljana and Macedonia.  I can't remember now whether I received

11     it directly in Sarajevo or whether it went through Belgrade because I was

12     directly subordinate to the chief for the ground army.

13        Q.   During the period before the war broke out in 1991 and 1992, how

14     did you receive your salary in practical terms?  Did you receive it in

15     cash or was it transferred to your account?  Can you remember that?

16        A.   For quite a while before the war, active-duty officers and

17     civilians serving in the army received their salaries exclusively through

18     current accounts that they had in the Post Savings Bank that had branches

19     in other towns as well.  We had one such branch in Sarajevo.  We had

20     cheques, we had a chequebook, and we could cash them in any post office

21     everywhere in Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   When you became a member of the Army of Republika Srpska, did you

23     continue to receive your salary in the same manner?

24        A.   When I became a member of the VRS, my current account was used to

25     transfer all my salaries and all the fringe benefits that I was entitled

Page 11226

 1     to.  And I had this account, as I said, in the Post Savings Bank.

 2        Q.   At one point in time, were there any problems with the clearance

 3     and payment system?  Did you have any problem with cashing in your

 4     cheques in the Post Savings Bank?

 5        A.   I know that there was a period of time when the system of

 6     payments was disrupted, and I think that was immediately after the war

 7     began.  We could, during this period of time, cash in our cheques in the

 8     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  All the families who fled to the FRY,

 9     or, rather, some members of the families had authorisation as a kind of

10     secondary current account card and were able to withdraw money.

11        Q.   Your family was in Banja Luka?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   How did you solve this problem?

14        A.   We who had families living in Republika Srpska were not able to

15     withdraw our salaries from the post offices in Republika Srpska due to

16     the severance of the system of payment.  Then we, the active personnel

17     and the civilians serving in the Army of Republika Srpska, gave a proxy

18     to the financial organ of the Army of Republika Srpska to enable them to

19     go directly to the Post Savings Bank and withdraw cash from our current

20     accounts and bring it to us at our command in the

21     Army of Republika Srpska and distribute the money.  The currency at the

22     time was dinar.

23        Q.   This is what you did concerning your family who was living in

24     Banja Luka; right?

25        A.   At the beginning, whenever an officer would go from Han Pijesak

Page 11227

 1     to Banja Luka, I would take this opportunity to give him some money to

 2     take it to my family.  Later on, I thought and I realised that it was

 3     much simpler to authorise this officer who was collecting salaries for

 4     the Banja Luka garrison to withdraw this money and take it directly to my

 5     family in Banja Luka.

 6        Q.   At that time, was it important to get this cash in hand as soon

 7     as possible after it has been paid into your account?

 8        A.   As far as I remember, from the summer of 1992 onwards until

 9     almost the end of 1993, there was hyperinflation in Republika Srpska.

10     Money was devalued overnight.  Therefore, it was very important for the

11     end user to get the cash as soon as possible in order to be able to buy

12     staple food and other necessities.

13        Q.   Who among members of the VRS was receiving their salary in this

14     fashion?

15        A.   You mean in this way that I just described?  All the active-duty

16     personnel and the civilians serving in the Army of Republika Srpska did

17     that.  As far as I know, this system of payment was the same for members

18     of the VJ.  They continued to receive their salaries through the

19     Post Savings Bank.  Nothing changed in the system compared to the

20     previous period.

21        Q.   When you say active-duty personnel or active-duty officers, what

22     other kind of officers and non-commissioned officers existed in the VRS?

23     Was there any other category?

24        A.   In addition to active-duty personnel consisting of officers and

25     non-commissioned officers who had finished various military schools,

Page 11228

 1     among members of the VRS we had reserve officers and non-commissioned

 2     officers.  But during the war we didn't use the terms "active" or

 3     "non-active."  It was important for them to have proper education and to

 4     perform their duties and tasks in a proper manner.  For the most part,

 5     there were -- those were trained officers who finished the school of

 6     reserve officers in the JNA before the war or had college or university

 7     degrees.

 8        Q.   Do you know who paid their salaries?

 9        A.   These officers and non-commissioned officers, just like soldiers

10     of the VRS, received salaries from the ministry of defence of the VRS

11     under the rules of salaries and other entitlements of Republika Srpska.

12     Initially, these were just symbolic amounts because part of the salary

13     was paid out in kind.  They received fuel, oil, garments, and other items

14     that were distributed in the places where their families lived.

15        Q.   What happened with members of the former JNA who had retired and

16     who remained in the -- in Republika Srpska?

17        A.   A number of retired members of the JNA who remained in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina later moved to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

19     Those were, for the most part, officers who lived in the territories held

20     by the TO and the HVO.  The officers who remained living in

21     Republika Srpska, the retired officers, I mean, were also receiving their

22     pensions through the Post Savings Bank.  Those who fled to the FRY could

23     cash in their cheques in all branches of the Post Savings Banks.  And

24     those who lived in Republika Srpska, I'm not sure, but I think that they

25     made similar arrangements as we did for our families.  They sent one

Page 11229

 1     person who collected the money for all of them and then distributed it.

 2        Q.   Did you still have social security and health insurance when you

 3     became a member of the VRS?

 4        A.   As a member of the VRS, I received my salary to the

 5     Post Savings Bank in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  On that basis,

 6     certain amounts were earmarked for health insurance and social security,

 7     and we were entitled to health care and social security in the FRY.

 8        Q.   Did your family members use the same benefits in terms of health

 9     insurance?

10        A.   Yes, in the places where they found accommodation.  There was a

11     problem with that, however.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have a break,

13     Your Honours?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at half

15     past 12.00.

16             Court adjourned.

17                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Malcic, before the break I asked you whether family members

22     enjoyed the same benefits in relation to health insurance.  You said that

23     there was some problem in that regard.  Could you please tell us what the

24     problem was in relation to health insurance and the entitlements of

25     families?

Page 11230

 1        A.   On the basis of my own health insurance, my family members were

 2     also entitled to health insurance.  My wife and my two daughters, or,

 3     actually, my wife had health insurance through the company that she

 4     worked in.

 5        Q.   In order to be entitled to health insurance, does an insuree have

 6     a document?  And if, so what is the document called?

 7        A.   That's what I wanted to say, there was no problem for me because

 8     I had my health booklet, as it was known, and I had it certified at the

 9     Main Staff and I gave it to the members of my family who were in

10     Banja Luka and they could be treated at the military medical facilities

11     in Banja Luka.  However, there was a problem for the members of families

12     who fled to the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  They

13     didn't know where they could have their health booklets stamped or where

14     they could get new ones, if they forgot their original ones when leaving

15     the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Also, they didn't know in which

16     institutions they could be treated.  They tried to make due in different

17     ways.  I don't know, it depended on the individual involved.

18        Q.   According to the rules of the former JNA, where were health

19     booklets stamped and thus certified?

20        A.   Health booklets of active-duty personnel and their family members

21     were stamped at the personnel organ of their unit.  It was the personnel

22     organ that was in charge of dealing with status related matters for such

23     an individual.

24        Q.   Do you perhaps know, Mr. Malcic, what happened to the units of

25     the former JNA that were located in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina

Page 11231

 1     and then went to the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 2     Basically, did the 2nd Military District continue to exist after the army

 3     was established and these units that were part of it?

 4        A.   According to the order, or, rather, decision of the Presidency of

 5     the SFRY in April 1992, all units of the JNA were duty-bound to withdraw

 6     to the territory of the FRY, and it was the organ in charge that decided

 7     which garrison every unit should go to.  They were put up there

 8     temporarily as far as I know, because at that time the establishment of

 9     the Army of Yugoslavia was being developed as well.  Just like other

10     units, they fitted into the units of the Army of Yugoslavia.  That is

11     what I know.

12        Q.   We already heard some testimony here, but perhaps you could tell

13     us which elements comprised the salary of an officer in the former JNA?

14        A.   An active-duty military person in the former JNA had a salary

15     that consisted of the following parts:  It depended on rank,

16     position group, and benefits, such as army benefit that all military

17     personnel were entitled to, troops benefit only for officers who served

18     in troops; and then also other benefits like the air force and the navy,

19     they had special benefits within their salaries.

20        Q.   Were there any other benefits that officers of the JNA enjoyed as

21     well as the services?

22        A.   They had the right to compensation for separation if they lived

23     separate from their families and if they could not provide accommodation

24     for their families once they were transferred to a new garrison.  Also

25     they had benefits if they served in areas where it was exceptionally

Page 11232

 1     difficult to serve like hardship posts and the like.

 2        Q.   That will do, thank you.  Did they have the right to

 3     accommodation?  How was that regulated?

 4        A.   According to regulations of the JNA, they had the right to

 5     housing, that is to say, they would be allotted apartments from the

 6     housing fund, the military housing fund.  From our gross salaries,

 7     certain amounts were earmarked for that, like for pension insurance,

 8     health insurance, and the like.

 9        Q.   Mr. Malcic, you lived in an apartment in Sarajevo and you told us

10     that after that your family moved to Banja Luka.  Were you the owner of

11     that apartment in Sarajevo, the one that you left behind?

12        A.   I got the apartment from the military housing fund of the

13     Sarajevo garrison of the JNA, and it was precisely in the beginning of

14     1992 that certain procedures started allowing persons to purchase

15     apartments according to a law that was passed at that time.  Up until the

16     beginning of the war, I had purchased my apartment.  I had made all the

17     payments necessary.  However, I didn't manage to have it registered in

18     the records of immovable property of the City of Sarajevo because at that

19     time these records or log-books had not been established yet.

20        Q.   Not to go into too great details, did you sell the apartment

21     later and was it sold at its market price when it was ultimately sold?

22        A.   I'm one of the few military officers who managed to get his

23     apartment back in Sarajevo.  It was sometime in 2004, I'm not quite sure.

24     Thanks to a good lawyer who helped me at the time.  Many of my colleagues

25     to this day have not managed to have their apartments given to them by

Page 11233

 1     the Sarajevo garrison returned to them, and I believe that they will

 2     never succeed in doing that.

 3        Q.   Did you sell it at the market price at the time, at least

 4     approximately?

 5        A.   I sold it at the time below its market value just to get any kind

 6     of money for it so that I could use that money to build my own house in

 7     Banja Luka and thus have a home for myself and my family.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Now, I'd like to move on to some other documents and

 9     certain procedures involved in the work you did before personnel centres

10     were established.  And then we are going to see what it was that you did

11     once they were established.  First I'm going to ask you whether you know

12     approximately when the 30th Personnel Centre of the Army of Yugoslavia

13     was established, roughly?

14        A.   As far as I can remember, towards the end of 1993, the

15     30th Personnel Centre was established.

16        Q.   Very well.  You said that you received your salary in the way in

17     which you described once you joined the Army of Republika Srpska.  During

18     that period before the personnel centres were established, let's just say

19     until the end of 1993, was your salary somehow made to match your change

20     in status in the Army of Republika Srpska?

21        A.   At first I only received my salary on the basis of the elements

22     of the job I had in the JNA before the war.  It was only towards the end

23     of 1992 once appointments were made in the Army of Republika Srpska.  We

24     started receiving salary on the basis of position group as well.  We

25     submitted that to the information technology centre and we told them what

Page 11234

 1     our duties were.  However, we could only submit the appointment orders

 2     where the position group could be seen.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down, sir, the interpreter is struggling to

 4     keep pace with you.  Thank you so much.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not recognise our ranks.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   When you say the information technology centre or computer

 8     centre, where is it?  In Yugoslavia or in Republika Srpska?

 9        A.   In Yugoslavia.  That was the centre that had calculated our

10     salaries earlier on as well.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 57, line 25, perhaps we should

12     use the term that was used before, the "accounting centre," I think the

13     witness used the word "military accounting centre."  Thank you.

14        Q.   What was it that you sent?  Which document did you send to that

15     military accounting or computer centre?  I'm asking you about the

16     period --

17        A.   In our work we used all forms and regulations of the JNA that we

18     found in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  They were

19     gathered there in different ways.  Some things came from Sarajevo, other

20     things came from Banja Luka.

21        Q.   Perhaps I wasn't clear.  What document is it in terms of form?

22        A.   I'm sorry.  I thought it was regulations that you were asking me

23     about.  The document was the appointment order on the basis of which we

24     compile a report on the hand-over of duty.  We would send that to the

25     computer centre or accounting centre.

Page 11235

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I'd like us to have a look at two

 2     documents.  The first document is from our 65 ter list.  The

 3     Defence [In English] 00191D.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a decree of the president of the

 5     republic -- the president of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic

 6     Radovan Karadzic dated the 31st of August, 1992.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just scroll down to see who

 8     signed the document.

 9        Q.   Mr. Malcic, on the basis of which regulations --

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have it scrolled up a bit

11     now.

12        Q.   On the basis of which regulations of which state was this

13     document passed?

14        A.   Decree of the president of the Presidency of the Serb Republic,

15     as it says here, of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was passed on the basis of

16     the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska.  It was signed by the president

17     of Republika Srpska Radovan Karadzic, and the officer involved was

18     Svetislav Galic, and he was commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

19     This was a unit within the Army of Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   Very well.  Did this document arrive at your personnel office at

21     one point in time?

22        A.   A certified copy arrived in my office and then on the basis of

23     this decree a report was written up on the hand-over of duty for

24     General Galic.  And then he would take that to his superior officer to

25     confirm it, and that was General Ratko Mladic.

Page 11236

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number

 2     assigned to this document, please, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, I heard the witness saying at

 4     page 59, line 4:

 5             "Decree of the president of the Presidency of the Serb republic,

 6     as it says here, of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 7             Where does it say "of Bosnia-Herzegovina"?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's written here in an abbreviated

 9     form, but it just says Srpska Republika.  But it was Srpska Republika BH;

10     that is what it was known as at the time.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  The document is admitted into evidence.

12     May it please be given an exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00294, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This document is a dated the

16     31st of August, 1992.  Can we now look at the next document which is

17     number 65 ter 00190D.  This is a document issued by the

18     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on the 31st of August, 1992.  The title is

19     "Report on the Hand-Over of Duty."  It was signed by General Ratko Mladic

20     and Colonel Galic.

21        Q.   Can you please comment on this document.  Is that the document

22     that you mentioned earlier that accompanies the other one?

23        A.   Upon receipt of the decree on appointment, the personnel organ of

24     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps made this document based on the decree.  It

25     precisely states the date on which General Galic took over the duty of

Page 11237

 1     the commander of the corps.  It says here, On the 31st of August, 1992, I

 2     took over the duty of commander of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

 3             It contains all the elements necessary to calculate the salary.

 4        Q.   Please slow down.  This is very important.

 5             Now, tell us something about these elements.  Where is it

 6     stipulated here?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom out the B/C/S

 8     version so that the witness can see the whole document.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Malcic, they request that you don't touch the

10     screen with your finger.  You can point, but don't touch the screen

11     because when you do touch the screen it causes problems for them.  I also

12     don't understand.

13             Okay.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In this document, can you point to the information that affects

16     the salary?

17        A.   First of all, establishment rank, it says here major-general,

18     Position Group 6.  These are very important elements for calculating

19     one's salary.  Underneath it says that in this establishment book of the

20     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, according to establishment, the establishment

21     rank of lieutenant-colonel falls into the category of Position Group 5.

22     That means that Galic did not receive the salary consistent with the

23     elements of a commander of a corps because previously he had

24     Position Group 8 and with this appointment he could only have received

25     Group 6, whereas he would be assigned to Group 5 only after he has spent

Page 11238

 1     a certain period of time in that position and depending on the

 2     performance appraisal.  That means that he was going to exercise this

 3     right only at a later stage.

 4        Q.   You said that this document was signed by his superior?

 5        A.   His superior officer, according to the chain of command.  The

 6     decree signed by the officer in charge.

 7        Q.   Now, what happens next with this document.  Where is it sent?

 8        A.   The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command sends this document to my

 9     personnel department, and through our financial organ one copy is sent to

10     the computer centre -- or military accounting and computer centre of

11     the VJ.  It also changed its name, so I don't know exactly how it was

12     called at this particular time.  But the customary return was military

13     computer centre.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I see you looking at us.  I thought maybe I

15     could get the answer without having to ask the parties.  These salary

16     ranks, 5 and 6, which one is higher, which one gives you more money, the

17     lower you go or the upper you go with the figures?  I'm asking because

18     the witness said was originally rank 8 now he was not paid according to

19     rank 8, and now he is rank 5 then he will get the better money later.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Believe me, it was difficult for me

21     too to fathom all these numbers and figures.  I don't even know if I

22     understand it.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lower rank carries higher salary.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The higher the rank,

25     the lower the salary.

Page 11239

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The higher the rank, the lower the salary.  Or the

 2     higher the rank in numbers here?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The higher the rank group, the lower the --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So if I'm 8, I'm a junior officer to number 6?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  If I'm one of the top guys --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person who has Group 1 has the

 8     best salary.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it would be beneficiary for

11     the Chamber to repeat this answer.

12        Q.   Mr. Malcic, I asked you what happens next with this document.

13     Where is it distributed?

14        A.   The document is then sent to the military computer centre for

15     calculating the salaries according to this document.

16        Q.   Where was this computer centre, in which state?

17        A.   It was in Belgrade.

18        Q.   Do you know according to which rules and regulations the people

19     in Belgrade checked whether this was in order?  What were the relevant

20     information for them?

21        A.   They abided by the regulations applicable to the Yugoslav Army.

22     We could only receive salaries if our appointments were in compliance

23     with the VJ regulations because our book of rules was so to say such that

24     could -- afforded us better salaries; however, we had to apply these

25     rules and regulations as was the case with the VJ.

Page 11240

 1        Q.   Let us take an example.  You said that Colonel Galic, who

 2     previously had Group 8, could not reach more than Group 5.  He could only

 3     go up two groups in the hierarchy that affect the salary?

 4        A.   That was the consequence of the rules applicable to the VJ.

 5     According to our rules, he could have got the same group immediately, and

 6     I'm talking about the regulations of the VRS.

 7        Q.   If it were to happen that your personnel department --

 8        A.   You mean the personnel department of the VRS?

 9        Q.   Yes.  If you would notice that something was inconsistent with

10     the VJ regulations, what would you do?

11        A.   We would send it back to be corrected so that the person in

12     question can exercise his rights.

13        Q.   This stamp that you see on the left-hand side which says

14     certified to be in order, who did that?

15        A.   I think that this was done by the computer centre controller

16     confirming that everything was done in accordance with the law and that

17     this person can be given this group.  If he found something to be wrong,

18     he would have returned the document to me and then we would have to

19     correct it, otherwise, it would not be acted upon.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have an exhibit number

21     for this document, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

23     please be given an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D00295, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 11241

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document from

 2     Defence 65 ter list 00157D.

 3        Q.   That is a document issued by the minister of defence of

 4     Republika Srpska on 8th October, 1993, appointing Vinko Pandurevic,

 5     commander of the 1st Zvornik Motorised Brigade.

 6             Mr. Malcic, this document, if we compare it to the previous ones,

 7     is it the same if it is issued by the minister of defence?  Does it bear

 8     the same consequences with regard to your activities and the salary

 9     calculations?

10        A.   Complete identical, only we have a different officer here, and

11     it's Vinko Pandurevic.

12        Q.   Based on this document, can you say on which date he was

13     appointed to this post?

14        A.   The order is dated the 8th of October, 1993, appointing him

15     commander of the Zvornik Brigade.  We cannot see the exact date on which

16     he took over the duty.  We have to go for that purpose to a different

17     document on hand-over of the duty which confirms by him and his superior

18     that he took over the duty on a specific date.

19        Q.   Is this a document of Republika Srpska or

20     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

21        A.   Republika Srpska.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can with we please have an exhibit

23     number for this document, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That document is admitted.  May it please be given

25     an exhibit number.

Page 11242

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D00296, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like now please document from

 5     Defence 65 ter list, 00158D.

 6        Q.   This is a bit blurred, but this is a report on hand-over of duty

 7     by Vinko Pandurevic, dated 25th of October, 1993.  Was this document

 8     dispatched through you or maybe somebody else to the FRY computer centre?

 9        A.   Through regular channels, it should receive my department after

10     which I would give it to the finance organ for implementation.

11     Initially, there were instances in order to curtail the procedure that

12     the finance organ of the Drina Corps directly sent it to the computer

13     centre or to the General Staff, provided they were absolutely sure that

14     the document was correct.  But they did provide me with a copy for

15     information only.

16        Q.   Did you record such documents in your department?

17        A.   Yes, we did, about every take-over of duty.

18        Q.   We are now going to move to the period when the personnel centres

19     were formed.  But before that, prior to the establishment of the

20     personnel centre, did you and your fellow officers have problems with the

21     records of members of the VRS who were dispatched to you?  Did you have

22     any problems at all with these records?

23        A.   In 1992 and for a part of 1993, we were unable to collect

24     complete information for every officer who served in the VRS because it

25     was impossible to obtain DPP 2.  All the information that we accumulated

Page 11243

 1     were generated on the basis of questionnaires filled in by officers

 2     serving in the VRS and some other auxiliary documents that we managed to

 3     get our hands on, therefore mistakes happened.

 4        Q.   Did anyone ever leave units of the VRS without permission,

 5     without you knowing that?

 6        A.   Yes, there were such instances.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Malcic, the interpreter asks that you repeat

 9     the answer.  They didn't hear you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were cases of officers

11     leaving their units without permission, that is to say, leaving the

12     Army of Republika Srpska.  We didn't know where such officers went

13     because there was no order through which we could check whether they went

14     and joined the Yugoslav Army.  That caused great difficulties for us.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   A few moments ago in response to my question you said that

17     towards the end of 1993 you heard that personnel centres were

18     established, specifically we will be dealing with the

19     30th Personnel Centre.  Do you remember now who you heard this from, that

20     the 30th Personnel Centre had been established?  What kind of information

21     did you receive?

22        A.   It was communicated to me orally by Mico Grubor, my superior

23     officer.  He told me that the 30th Personnel Centre was established and

24     that from then on we would have a particular person from whom we would be

25     able to receive accurate information about every active-duty military

Page 11244

 1     person serving in the Army of Republika Srpska.  Instructions would

 2     follow as to how we would be doing that.

 3        Q.   Did you hear then or later where this 30th Personnel Centre was,

 4     who it was subordinated to, which organ?

 5        A.   I heard then that the 30th Personnel Centre would be within the

 6     personnel administration of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 7        Q.   Let me just not forget, I believe, Your Honours, that I did not

 8     tender the previous document.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have not tendered this document.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this one that we have on the

11     screen now.  Yes, I would like to tender that.  That's what I actually

12     meant.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

14     number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00297, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

17             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you know where the actual offices of the 30th Personnel Centre

20     were?

21        A.   I do know.  These were two offices that were in one of the

22     buildings within the compound of the General Staff of the

23     Army of Yugoslavia.

24        Q.   Did you go there personally?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 11245

 1        Q.   Do you remember who you contacted there?  Do you know who the

 2     person in charge was, the person that you contacted?

 3        A.   I contacted Colonel Gojko Mijic who was head of that organ there.

 4     There were four or five other people there as well, military officers and

 5     civilians.  All of these active-duty officers were born in the territory

 6     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  For the most part, they were disabled persons or

 7     persons who could not do full military service due to their health

 8     conditions.

 9        Q.   Which army did they belong to?

10        A.   They belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska.  They just worked

11     there.  They did that work in order to meet our needs.

12        Q.   What was the name you said -- yes, right.

13        A.   Gojko Mijic from the area around Banja Luka and Jovo Milicic from

14     the area around Sipovo.

15        Q.   Do you know who their superior officer was?

16        A.   Truth to tell, I don't know.

17        Q.   Have you heard of a man by the name of Dusan Zoric?

18        A.   I know that General Dusan Zoric was head of the personnel

19     administration of the the Army of Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   But you don't know whether he was their superior?

21        A.   I don't really want to engage in guess-work.  I wasn't really

22     interested if that.

23        Q.   Gojko Mijic or any of his colleagues from there, did they come to

24     see you in Han Pijesak?

25        A.   Most often it was Gojko Mijic who came in relation to agreements

Page 11246

 1     as to how we could carry out the instructions that had been written up

 2     about the work of his organs so that we could have identical updated

 3     records for military personnel and for civilians serving in the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska.

 5        Q.   Do you remember perhaps what came first, what the priority was,

 6     what was supposed to be done first when the personnel centres were

 7     established; do you remember that from the communication you had?

 8        A.   First we worked on setting up up-to-date records.  As far as I

 9     can remember, the first document that I submitted to that

10     30th Personnel Centre was a list of professional military personnel, as

11     we called them then, and civilians serving in the

12     Army of Republika Srpska including all the basic elements according to

13     which they had been receiving their salaries until then.

14             The next document was actually the fact that we submitted all our

15     appointment orders for active-duty officers in the

16     Army of Republika Srpska, and it is on that basis that they had received

17     their salaries up until then from the computer centre.  That was the

18     beginning of this process of tallying our sets of records.

19        Q.   Did Gojko Mijic -- could Gojko Mijic ever give you any kind of

20     order, or anyone else from that personnel centre for that matter?

21        A.   Gojko Mijic and Jovo Milicic were the only colonels there, at my

22     rank, that is, but they did not have any commanding role.  This was a

23     service of ours that was there for the purpose of collecting accurate

24     information about officers of the Army of Republika Srpska.  Our joint

25     task was to keep the best possible up-to-date records for the personnel

Page 11247

 1     serving in the Army of Republika Srpska so we co-operated.  He was a

 2     person I collaborated with; he wasn't my superior.  Mijic was not my

 3     superior.  It was Mico Grubor.  Later on, it was Petar Skrbic as I said

 4     at the very outset.  Mijic was just a person I worked with, a co-worker.

 5        Q.   Let us go through a few more documents now.  I would like to go

 6     through parts of your own personal file or dossier.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have official translations for

 8     some of these document and for others we have unofficial

 9     documents [as interpreted] because it was only the other day when we

10     received this from the OTP.  But I think that we will able to deal with

11     them with this witness.  So from 65 ter [In English] 790D [Realtime

12     transcript read in error "7907D"].

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say that again, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 00790D [Realtime transcript read in

15     error "7907D"].

16        Q.   This is an order on appointment issued by the minister of defence

17     of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The date is the

18     16th of June, 1992.  Stojan Malcic.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go on, can we just correct the

20     transcript.  It's 00790D.  No 7 at the end.  Thank you.  You may proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Malcic, I'm sure that this is a document that you are

23     familiar with.  So let me ask you what does it say?  According to this

24     document, when were you appointed to the particular duty mentioned here?

25        A.   This is the first order on my appointment that I received in the

Page 11248

 1     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   We see two dates.  One date is the 16th of June, but in the

 3     document there is also a reference to the 30th of May, 1992.  Can you

 4     explain this to us?

 5        A.   As I said at the outset, I came to the Main Staff on the

 6     30th of May, 1992.  At that time, there weren't any establishment books

 7     of the Main Staff.  It was only when we set these books up, when we

 8     printed them, when we included our working maps, it was only then that I

 9     could be appointed to that post and be entered into this work map.  And

10     then we wrote up the orders.  The order was written up only on the

11     16th of April, because by then establishment had been set up.  Before

12     that, we could not invent elements for my position.  By now, everything

13     was clear.  So then, on the 16th of June, the Ministry of Defence signed

14     this accurate order appointing me head of the office for personnel

15     affairs in the administration for organisation and personnel.  That is

16     the exact name of the position I held at the time.  However, it said

17     there that I assumed that duty on the 30th of May because I actually did

18     start working on these matters on that date.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down.  Slow down.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   We see here, Mr. Malcic, that it is mentioned that in the JNA,

22     previously, you had Position Group 12 and now there is a reference to

23     Position Group 10, is that what you told us about, that there could only

24     be an increase of two position groups in terms of this new duty that you

25     held according to establishment?

Page 11249

 1        A.   On the basis of this document, you can see that the

 2     position group is 10.  I could only move two groups, that is to say, from

 3     12 to 10.  And I immediately had achieved that.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps do you see

 5     number 12 referred to in the last line in English?  In English, PG 12.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see that, thank you.  That's what we were

 7     looking for.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have an exhibit

 9     number for this document.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

11     an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00298, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have

16     document - it's from the list that we have just uploaded.

17     [In English] Doc ID 1D11-0498.  Sorry it's not slash, it's dash.  I only

18     have a draft translation in hard copy, so could it please be provided to

19     Their Honours and to the OTP.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have not received a

21     copy.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, do you have a copy for the

23     interpreters?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately I don't think I have

25     any copies for the interpreters.  I can only apologise to them.

Page 11250

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hope they accept your apology.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excellent.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, we are going to the ELMO now.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   As it says here this is a report on transfer of duties for

 6     Stojan Malcic, father's name Petar.  The date is the 30th of May, 1992.

 7     And it says here:

 8             "I have assumed the duty of assistant chief of ..."

 9             I'm going to read it out, and I think that the interpreters will

10     be able to follow me.  In the middle it says:

11             "I have received the duty of assistant chief of personnel

12     department in the administration for organisation and personnel of the

13     Main Staff of the Army of SR BH."

14             Mr. Malcic, is this a document that was created as a consequence

15     of the document that we saw previously, that is to say, your duty --

16     appointment order?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Down here it says --

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Actually, could we just scroll down a

20     bit --

21        Q.   Because I would like us to hear your comments.  First of all, in

22     the heading, it says, Report on transfer of duties or hand-over duties.

23     It says, The Accounting Centre of SSNO.

24             What is that?

25        A.   That was the Federal Secretariat for National Defence in the

Page 11251

 1     Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  This is an old form.  We

 2     didn't have any others.  We didn't have been opportunity of printing any

 3     others, so we just used all the old forms, and the essence had not been

 4     changed.

 5        Q.   Was that the document that was basic document that was sent for

 6     the payment of salaries before the personnel centre was established?

 7        A.   On the basis of assign -- appointment order, we compiled this

 8     kind of document which was then sent on further for the payment of

 9     salaries.  That is what is written here on the basis of the order upon

10     which this report was written up.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have this document

12     admitted into evidence, or, rather, I would like to have it MFI'd before

13     we receive an official translation.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

15     please be given an exhibit number and marked for identification.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D00299 marked for

17     identification, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So we have seen these documents from

20     May and June 1992.  The next document we are going to see is from our

21     list, and we have a translation thereof.  It's 00793D from the 65 ter

22     list.

23        Q.   At the time, you had Position Group 10; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   This is an order issued by the assistant commander of the

Page 11252

 1     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska of 6 July 1993 whereby you

 2     have been appointed standing officer of the head of the personnel

 3     department.  It was signed by Colonel Mico Grubor?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   When we looked at the Law on Army of Republika Srpska, I asked

 6     you to comment on Article 156 which relates to this document.  I'm going

 7     to ask you now, Why was this document important for your salary?

 8        A.   In July 1992, Milan Lukic, due to a serious illness --

 9        Q.   You said 1992?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Sorry, I thought you said 1993.

12        A.   Yes, I apologise, 1993, but it should be 1992.  In late 1992,

13     Milan Lukic was permitted to be reunited with his family in Skopje due to

14     a serious illness.  He either retired or went to his unit, I don't know.

15     The post of the chief of the personnel department was vacant.  We waited

16     for a certain period of time for an officer who had been colonel for a

17     longer time than I did, and who had more experience than I did, to come

18     and fill this post; however, this officer never turned up.  And under the

19     law, since this was a vacant post, my superior, Mico Grubor, decided to

20     appoint me standing chief of the personnel department.  And,

21     consequently, he wrote this order.

22        Q.   We see here that Position Group 8 is mentioned in this document.

23     Did that in any way affect your salary?

24        A.   Yes, because before I was Group 10.  Now I had number 8.  So I

25     was moving up.  It affected my salary because my salary was increased by

Page 11253

 1     these two steps.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll down this

 3     document a bit.

 4        Q.   Here we see in the left-hand corner a seal or a stamp, rather.

 5     It says accounting centre of the MO.  Was this kind of document passed on

 6     directly to someone and to whom?

 7        A.   This type of document along with the report on assumption of

 8     duties was sent to the accounting centre for the controller there to see

 9     exactly when this order was issued and what was the basis for issuing

10     this order.  The report on the assumption of duty was not sufficient for

11     the controller.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have an exhibit number

13     for this document, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do, I see below that rank 8 there's also

15     in brackets, As per establishment PG 7.  What is the meaning of that?

16     Looks like jumping three ranks instead of two.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we spoke about Galic case

18     before, I was appointed to formation post 8; but as per establishment,

19     it's PG 7.  But I wasn't entitled to the right deriving from PG 7 because

20     I could only move up two steps or two groups.  That's how I

21     understand it.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Now, that paragraph starting --

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to avoid any

24     confusion, line 27 [sic], page -- the witness said PG 7, but I couldn't

25     get any higher step than PG 8.  That's what the witness said.

Page 11254

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know.  You said line 27.  Now, we don't

 3     have 27 lines.  I don't know what we are talking about.  Can you give me

 4     the page --

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Page 76, line 20.  He said

 6     that was establishment post with PG 7, but I couldn't get a higher step

 7     than PG 8.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.  Then on the same document after

 9     that PG 7, after the paragraph -- the paragraph starting "Currently as

10     per peacetime establishment ..." it ends up that paragraph by saying

11     "... since 10 May 1992."

12             I thought you started on the 30th of May.  How come it says

13     10th May?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to avoid any

15     confusion created by myself because I can see both versions, this Serbian

16     and the English.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Let's look at both Serbian and the English.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, please take a look

19     at the B/C/S version [In English] It's Cyrillic, Your Honour.

20     [Interpretation] It says "PG 10 from 30th of May."

21             Can you see that?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can see it says from 30th of May, 1992.  It

23     looks like our translations are not up to standard.  Okay.  So the

24     correct date is 30th of May.  The document is admitted into evidence.

25     May it please be given an exhibit number.

Page 11255

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00300, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Microphone, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is an official translation from

 7     the CLSS, the only problem was the date.  But since we have corrected it

 8     in the transcript, I don't think we need to ask for correction.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was not attacking anybody.  I was attacking the

10     translation itself, not who did it.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document is also from the

12     Defence 65 ter list.  Marked [Overlapping speakers] ... 00789D.

13        Q.   This document is from July -- actually, the previous one was from

14     July 1993, and this one is from September 1993.  It's issued by minister

15     of defence of Republika Srpska appointing you to a new post.  Actually,

16     that was the date on which you were appointed head of the personnel

17     department and, at the same time, deputy assistant commander for

18     organisation, mobilisation, and personnel.

19             Based on this document, what had to be done -- but first of all,

20     with this appointment to this new post, did you achieve or acquire any

21     other rights on any other position group and consequently a better

22     salary?

23        A.   In this order, we already have a sector which reflects the

24     changes in the organisational chart of the Main Staff.  And now,

25     according to this new establishment, we had to reappointment all the

Page 11256

 1     officers to the duties corresponding to the new establishment.  These new

 2     appointments were decided by the persons in charge, and I was appointed

 3     the head of the personnel department and at the same time the deputy head

 4     of this sector.

 5        Q.   Yes, we have seen this.  My question was, Did you need any other

 6     document to be issued after this order?

 7        A.   Yes, a report on the assumption of duty had to be compiled in

 8     order for it to be sent to the computer centre.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have this

10     document admitted into evidence.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so admitted.  May it please be given an

12     exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D00301, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to start now on a new

17     document.  I think we can adjourn for today.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we adjourn, may the record show that

19     we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis today in the absence of

20     Judge David.  I forgot to mention this at the beginning.

21             We -- the matter will stand adjourned to tomorrow at quarter past

22     2.00 in the afternoon in Courtroom II, sir, not in the morning.  But

23     before we adjourn, I must warn you, sir, that now that you have taken the

24     witness-stand, you may not discuss the case with anybody until you are

25     excused from further testifying.  Specifically, you may not discuss with

Page 11257

 1     your lawyers about the case.  Okay?

 2             Matter adjourned to quarter past 2.00 tomorrow afternoon,

 3     Courtroom II.

 4             Court adjourned.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day

 8                           of March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.