Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11516

 1                           Tuesday, 1 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 10.47 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  And welcome to everybody.  I hope we are all ready to work.

 7     Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Good morning, Your

 9     Honours.  Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is

10     case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Could we have the

13     appearances for the day starting with the Prosecution, please.

14             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours, counsel, everyone in the

15     courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Dan Saxon, Barney Thomas, and Carmela Javier for

16     the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.  And for the

18     Defence.

19             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, good

20     morning to everyone in the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic is represented by

21     Novak Lukic, Chad Mair, and Boris Zorko.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.  For the record,

23     the Chamber is sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge

24     David who is still indisposed.  And before we start the business of the

25     day, I just want to place on the record the Chamber's response to --

Page 11517

 1     Chamber's view of the response that we got pursuant to Rule 33B from

 2     Registry relating to the discussion that took place at the last session

 3     regarding priority requests by the Defence.  The Registry did or CLSS did

 4     file a response.  Suffice to say I don't think I need to say much about

 5     it.  Suffice to say that the view is that there was no reason for the

 6     CLSS to refuse to take requests from the Defence if they did take them

 7     from the Prosecution, but we know it also that they have undertaken in

 8     that submission to accept requests from the Defence henceforth, and I

 9     hope that you are getting co-operation.  Thank you so much.

10             Can we talk then about the status of the translations, which is

11     the very reason that we have postponed.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.  Any update you

12     can give?

13             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a few words.  I

14     believe that you have been kept abreast of what we decided at the meeting

15     with the CLSS.  The Prosecution and the representatives of the Chamber

16     some two weeks ago, and I believe that you have arrived at some

17     conclusions of your own as to how these proceedings should continue and

18     finish.

19             After the interruption in this case, we got in touch with -- in

20     very professional touch with the CLSS.  We started sending them and we

21     keep on sending them some priority parts of the documentation that we

22     need translated as soon as possible which will allow us to start bringing

23     our witnesses in.

24             Our original position was that we would like to proceed when we

25     received all the translations and we have revised that position wishing

Page 11518

 1     to start seeing the witnesses primarily those that would be led by

 2     Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith because I'm obviously familiar with all of the

 3     documents in my own language.  Therefore, in light of the sequence that

 4     you already are familiar with, we have started with the translation for

 5     the witnesses, and we have been assured that the translations or parts of

 6     the material for the particular witness will be available to us before

 7     the 10th of June or thereabouts.

 8             In that sense, as we discussed at the meeting and now I'm

 9     repeating what was discussed, our wish is for the first witness,

10     Mr. Skrbic, who will be led by me, to be prepped to be in the courtroom

11     on the 14th of June.  After that, we will see the next witness and if all

12     the materials will have been provided to Mr. Guy-Smith to start prepping

13     that witness, then I can assure you that we will have continuity in the

14     sequence of witnesses.

15             I have a slight reservation, but not with regard to this plan.

16     Yesterday I spoke to Mr. Djuricic and Ms. Maja Ruzic so ask them whether

17     there were any new moments whether they can update us with regard to what

18     was said at the meeting, and that was that the entire material would be

19     translated in the first week of July.  The answer that I received from

20     Mr. Djuricic an hour ago, and I'm going to read just one part:

21             [English] "The whole project was calculated on the basis on the

22     transcription schedule set by OTP.  According to that schedule, at this

23     moment OTP is running late with transcription of two notebooks about 500

24     pages, which might have impact on meeting the dead-line for the whole

25     project.  CLS is devoting significant parts of its resources in order to

Page 11519

 1     provide the translations in timely manner and will try to compensate for

 2     eventual delays in transcription as much as our resources and the

 3     workload will allow."

 4             [Interpretation] I'm conveying this information to the Trial

 5     Chamber, but we do not wish this information to change what we believe is

 6     achievable and that is if there are any further delays that with good

 7     co-operation with the CLSS and the OTP with regard to the translation of

 8     the most urgent things, we will be able if we start and if you render a

 9     decision to that effect to start on the 14th of July.  We will be able to

10     maintain the continuity of witnesses in light of the translation of the

11     documents.  The 14th of June, not July.  The 14th of June.  And one more

12     thing that I would like to say, but before I do that, I would kindly ask

13     the Chamber to move into private session.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 11520

 1   (redacted)

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 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] We are in a position that we are

20     still treading in the dark with regard to everything that has been

21     disclosed and will be disclosed to us in the forthcoming period, and we

22     are embarking on the Defence case, I have to state for the record that

23     the Defence has to retain the right to possibly, if something appears as

24     relevant in the materials that have not been disclosed, to recall some of

25     its witnesses or amend its 65 ter list with regard to some witnesses.

Page 11521

 1             I'm talking in abstract terms now, but I'm afraid that if some

 2     materials appear that are of relevance for this case, that in keeping

 3     with the rules in such a case, we should be allowed to recall the

 4     witness.  I would like us to start with the witnesses.  I would like us

 5     to start the Defence case as soon as possible to bring the whole matter

 6     to an end as soon as possible.  I would like to assure you of that, and I

 7     would like to assure you also of the fact that the OTP and the Defence

 8     have been in negotiations about adjudicated facts, and one of these days

 9     we will come out with a list of indisputable facts that will have an

10     impact on the --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I stop you there.  You are going too far.  Can

12     I just try to summarise what you have said.  Do I understand you to be

13     saying, sir, that you are not able to start hearing the case until at

14     least the 14th of June?  You also said that since the last session you

15     are co-operating with CLSS and they are translating some excerpts at your

16     request on a priority basis.  You don't have anything from them that has

17     been translated that you can use to call a witness right now or in the

18     very near future?  Don't be long, just yes or no?

19             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] We can start on the 14th of June.

20     We can start on the 14th of June, and we expect some priority

21     translations to be provided to us by the CLSS.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By the 10th, from what you said, the 10th of June.

23             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Yes, the 10th of June.  Let me state

24     that those are priority translations that we need for the second witness.

25     The first one that I will be leading I can do it even without the English

Page 11522

 1     translations.  What did I have in mind, Your Honours, in order to speed

 2     up this process?  I have correspondence with the OTP and a significant

 3     part of the materials have already been prepared for the first witness.

 4     However, if something that has not been translated, and I know that it is

 5     interesting for the witness and I'm able to read all that with the

 6     witness in the Serbian, we can MFI such documents and wait for the

 7     translation.  In other words, I don't have the language problem to start

 8     leading my first witness.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  How soon can you lead your first witness,

10     14th or earlier?

11             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] No, I can't start earlier.  That

12     witness has to have a very serious proofing notes compiled.  It will take

13     me four days to prepare him.  We could have possibly brought him in and

14     then make a break --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  I'm trying to move a little faster,

16     Mr. Lukic.

17             After the 14th, you are able to call the next witness after the

18     first one.  You know, in other words, we will run -- we are not going to

19     stop --

20             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] If all the translations do not

21     arrive and since we expect them to arrive at the beginning of June, we

22     will be ready to call our next witness immediately after the first

23     witness.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  And what is the status from the point

25     of view of CLSS with respect, if you do know, with respect to the entire

Page 11523

 1     diary?  Is that schedule still the 29th of June, or can it be earlier, do

 2     you know that?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] No.  With regard to the entire

 4     material, the entire diary, I believe that the entire diary will be

 5     translated before the end of the first week of July, according to the

 6     CLSS.  However, in view of the letter that I've just read out and the

 7     delay in providing the Latinic transcript, they cannot guarantee that the

 8     entire diary will indeed be available before the 1st of July, but even if

 9     that's not available and that untranslated part is not significant, we

10     don't think that it will have an impact on our schedule of Defence

11     witnesses.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.

13             Is there anything that the Prosecution would like to say about

14     this point?  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

15             MR. SAXON:  May I just clarify one point raised by Mr. Lukic.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

17             MR. SAXON:  I don't believe I need to go into private session for

18     this, and I don't know if perhaps there was a loss in the interpretation.

19     At page 5, lines 12 to 14, Mr. Lukic said that we, that is the Defence

20     team, have a promise from the OTP, that we, in other words the OTP, will

21     provide "all the audiotapes in succession."  Certainly the undertaking of

22     the Prosecution is that we will provide all material that falls within

23     one of the disclosure rules of this Tribunal.  We have not made a promise

24     to provide all of the audiotapes, because quite frankly, Your Honour, we

25     are only just beginning to review all of this material ourselves, and we

Page 11524

 1     are unaware at this time whether all of the material is relevant to this

 2     case or not.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.  And on that point itself,

 4     what I did want to find out from the parties was whether over and above

 5     the postponement that we are having now here, are we he going to be

 6     expected to postpone again for the evaluation of the audio material, or

 7     is it being evaluated right now and by the time we resume we will resume

 8     full speed and no longer stop because of any material that comes, unless

 9     new material comes.

10             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] I truly don't know that, Your

11     Honour.  I have what I received and I can share information only based on

12     what has been disclosed to us so far.  I believe Mr. Saxon is right, they

13     are under an obligation only to disclose material as per rules, not all

14     of it, be it Rule 66 or 68.  What I wanted to say is this:  We have

15     listened to some of the tapes, and we concluded that this is important

16     material.  We cannot simply set it aside.  Once we have received

17     everything from the Prosecution, our position will be clear.  I truly

18     hope that there will be nothing in that material that may disturb these

19     proceedings, but we haven't received all of it yet.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that.  But what you have received you

21     have reviewed?  Thank you.  Okay.  Given what you've been saying,

22     Mr. Lukic, do I understand you to say that you want an adjournment to the

23     14th?

24             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Unfortunately, you understood it

25     well.  The 14th is a Monday.  That is why we specified that date as the

Page 11525

 1     beginning of that working week.  Once we start leading witnesses, the

 2     14th would be a good day.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Anything from the Prosecution on that

 4     adjournment.

 5             MR. HARMON:  That's fine, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.

 7             There is an issue that the parties have been litigating about,

 8     which I think they should not be doing, and that's the 65 ter summaries.

 9     What is the state of the 65 ter summaries?

10             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] We received your decision, and we

11     will abide by it.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] We received your request and we will

14     comply by the 4th.  We will forward certain summaries by then, and then I

15     believe the 14th of August is the dead-line for the rest.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For the rest of the entire case.  I seem to have

17     read somewhere, I may be wrong, that as a result of your re-organisation,

18     there's -- there may be a change in the number of witnesses.  Am I

19     pushing you too hard?

20             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Well, we mentioned that during the

21     meeting.  We said that it was our intention to give up on a number of

22     witnesses.  We forwarded a letter including the Chamber to the parties

23     here.  It was dated the 25th of May.  We specified the sequence of the

24     witnesses whose summaries we would work on.  We also advised that we were

25     to give up on five further witnesses.  I believe you are in receipt of

Page 11526

 1     that letter through the Registry.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 3             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Perhaps I can offer this comment as

 4     well.  In the same letter, we said -- [English] not be calling the

 5     witnesses.  [Interpretation] I believe this was a message on our part.  I

 6     keep discussing this with Mr. Guy-Smith to be as economical as possible,

 7     but for as long as he's not fully acquainted with all of the material, I

 8     cannot make the call.  In any case, before the summer recess, I believe

 9     we'll have a clear picture of what will follow afterwards.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  I don't think the Prosecution

11     wants to say anything or not.

12             MR. HARMON:  No, Your Honour, thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It seems as if we have dealt with everything that

14     the Chamber did want to deal with.  Anything that the parties would like

15     to raise, Mr. Prosecutors?

16             MR. HARMON:  No, Your Honour, thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Defence.

18             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the matter stands adjourned -- well, the

20     14th to a time and a court to be determined.

21             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] I believe the 14th is scheduled for

22     the afternoon.  I don't know whether this will stay the same.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I haven't seen the latest diary.  Is it in the

24     afternoon?  Do you know what the courtroom is?  Okay.  Then the matter

25     stands adjourned to the 14th of June at quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.

Page 11527

 1     Court adjourned.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.11 a.m.

 3                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of June,

 4                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.