1 Wednesday, 7 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.31 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to to everyone in and around the
8 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
10 number IT-04-81-T, The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Could we have appearances for the day, starting with the
14 MR. THOMAS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
15 everyone in and around the courtroom. Carmela Javier and Barney Thomas
16 for the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
18 And for the Defence.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good afternoon, Your Honours, and to all. Boris
20 Zorko, Chad Mair, Alex Fielding, and Gregor Guy-Smith appearing on behalf
21 of Mr. Perisic.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
23 Good afternoon, Mr. Kodzopeljic. Good afternoon.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Just to remind you, Mr. Kodzopeljic, I
1 know you know this already, but it is still our duty to remind you that
2 you're still bound by the declaration that you made at the beginning of
3 your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but
4 the truth.
5 Thank you so much.
6 Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 WITNESS: JUGOSLAV KODZOPELJIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examination by Mr. Guy-Smith: [Continued]
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 If I can have but a moment. We seem to be have a technical
12 problem still.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Take your time.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: We still have a minor technical problem. We're
15 going to try to work around it. But in the event that we have to go to
16 the ELMO, we are not in a position to see both the transcript of the
17 proceedings as well as whatever exhibit is being shown to the witness.
18 And to the extent there are any issues, it can be addressed to me
19 specifically by Mr. Zorko as they relate to translations, that puts out
20 as somewhat of a disadvantage for the moment.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Join the club, Mr. Guy-Smith. We also can't see
22 anything on our screens.
23 I'm being advised that we should use the other one that is the
24 one over which have you no control for LiveNote. And then within five
25 minutes the other one will work.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
2 Q. I'd like to continue where we left off yesterday. I -- I note
3 that you have your binder in front of you, and I'd like you to take a
4 look at the next document which is P589.
5 A. I can see it.
6 Q. I'm going suggest that we do, for the purposes of -- of the
7 examination at this point, is I'm going to ask you a series about the
8 document which you have in hard copy, and then we can either have it on
9 the screen -- have the document on the screen as we normally would, but
10 then we would not have the benefit of the transcript, or we can just work
11 for a minute with the document.
12 You know what? Let me make another suggestion. Let me try to do
13 something somewhat different for the moment, because if it's going to be
14 five minutes, perhaps what I can do is jump into -- I can go to another
15 subject matter for a moment, and I come back to this subject and see if
16 we can do it that way. That might be probably a more efficacious use of
17 our time.
18 Mr. Kodzopeljic, during the period of -- of our discussions over
19 the last couple of days we have, in large measure, been discussing the
20 issue of special-purpose industry, and we have touched upon your specific
21 duties in the technical administration. What I'd like you to do, if you
22 could, is I'd like you to explain to us the technical institutes and how
23 the military technical institutes, and specifically the military
24 institutes with regard to repair, fit into your duties, if you could.
25 A. I can only speak of the technical and maintenance institutes that
1 were under me. It was the institute in Kragujevac [Realtime transcript
2 read in error "Kraljevic"] and Cacak.
3 Q. Thank you. And with regard to those institutes, what were --
4 what was the institute in Cacak responsible for?
5 A. The institute in Cacak maintained non-combat [as interpreted]
6 motor vehicles, tanks, APCs, infantry weapons, in the sense of general
7 maintenance. Next, they also maintained some engineering and electronic
8 equipment, as well as internal combustion engines, and that was the bulk
9 of their work.
10 Q. And with regard to the institute in Kraljevic [sic]. Could
11 you -- could you describe for us what its -- it did?
12 A. The technical and maintenance depot or institute in Kragujevac
13 [Realtime transcript read in error "Kraljevic"] was specific, because it
14 only maintained and worked on ammunitions. As far as I can tell you,
15 based on the principles of economics, they worked on ammunitions of
16 the -- of the 20 millimetre calibre onwards or upwards. It simply was
17 not cost effective to maintain any ammunitions below that range.
18 I can also tell you that they worked on other types of mines and
19 explosives, but for the most part, they worked with the ordnance that was
20 of 20 millimetre calibre and up.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask -- okay. Just before I do that,
22 Mr. Thomas.
23 MR. THOMAS: Sorry, Your Honours. I think there's an error in
24 the transcript. The institute that was referred to, at least what I
25 heard Mr. Kodzopeljic refer to, was Kragujevac, and it's been recorded as
1 "Kraljevic," page 3, line 25, and page 4, line 7, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you please correct us, Mr. Kodzopeljic. Which
3 was the correct name?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: And line 9 as well.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the technical and
7 maintenance institute in Kragujevac, and the one before that is in Cacak.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay just before the screen disappears --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The very line that is disappearing says:
11 "The institute in Cacak maintained non-combat motor vehicles,
12 tanks, APCs, infantry weapons."
13 What do you mean by that? How can tanks and infantry weapons and
14 APCs be non-combat vehicles? Unless you were misquoted, you were
15 misinterpreted, but that's what the thing says here and now it's
16 disappeared. I can't refer you to it.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then it must have been
18 misinterpreted. I said that the technical institute in Cacak maintained
19 those; whereas, the one in Kragujevac, maintained only on ammunitions.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that the Judge's question is slightly
21 different than what you responded to, Mr. Kodzopeljic.
22 You mentioned two kinds ever vehicles and hopefully we will get
23 it back after the whole technical -- the whole LiveNote issue is taken
24 care of. I don't want to take what he said out of context.
25 So apparently my experiment to get into an area where we were not
1 dealing with exhibits was not successful.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry about that Mr. Guy-Smith. Carry on.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH:
5 Q. And let me see if -- if we can work with your -- with your last
6 answer by memory.
7 You indicated that in Kragujevac there were two kinds of vehicles
8 that were being maintained, and could you tell us again what those two
9 kinds were?
10 A. There seems to be a misunderstanding. The technical maintenance
11 institute in Kragujevac generally refitted ammunitions.
12 Q. My apologies. That one I made a terrible mistake and I do
13 apologise. Cacak.
14 A. Yes. The technical maintenance institute in Cacak maintained
15 infantry weapons, armoured combat vehicles such as tanks, electronic
16 equipment, vehicles, and I said non-combat motor vehicles, under which
17 our -- the vehicles, the weight of which is .75 tons, 1, and 1 and a half
18 tons. These are transport vehicles that are not fitted with weapons, and
19 we referred to them as non-combat motor vehicles.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the important thing is that combat vehicles
21 are also repaired there, APCs, and infantry weapons and --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, you may proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.
25 Q. Now, in the first institute that we discussed, Cacak, were
1 vehicles built at that institute?
2 A. No. They did not produce vehicles.
3 Q. Was their function limited to -- put it another way.
4 What was their function limited to? It wasn't production. So
5 what was done with these vehicles, be they combat or non-combat vehicles?
6 A. I'll try to be brief.
7 When a piece of equipment, combat or non-combat or whatever they
8 had within their overhaul programme, is assessed as no longer be
9 sufficient -- being sufficiently reliable to be used, it is sent to the
10 technical and maintenance or overhaul institute in Cacak. Let's say it's
11 a tank. They -- they then take it apart, control each and every part in
12 terms of material, quality, and dimension, and then reassemble the tank.
13 Should a part be of such poor quality that it could no longer be used, it
14 is replaced by a new or repaired spare part. After that, the tank is
15 tested and, if it passes the test, it is considered to be basically a new
17 Q. And as a new -- as a new tank, once it -- it passes its test,
18 does that tank then re-enter into the materiel of the VJ? Or is it used
19 for some other -- or can it be used for some other purpose, or both?
20 A. No. It cannot be used for any other purpose. It remains a
21 military asset.
22 Q. With regard to the institute at Kragujevac, what was that
23 institute responsible for?
24 A. To repeat, that technical and overhaul institute was in charge of
25 refitting ammunitions.
1 Q. And could you describe which -- to us what you mean by "refitting
3 A. Yes, briefly. The technical characteristics of different types
4 of ammunition is monitored, those stored in warehouses and generally used
5 across the army, and based on the results of such monitoring, such types
6 of ammunition that are found unsatisfactory are being refitted. Let's
7 say it's a bullet. It is transported to the institute, disassembled.
8 Each part is controlled to see whether it meets the technical
9 characteristic threshold. It is cleaned. We technically refer to it as
11 Following the exercise, the bullet is reassembled, and those
12 parts that are found unfit are replaced, because they were not within the
13 permissible range.
14 After that, such a bullet is protected, packaged, and used as a
15 new bullet for the next 15 or 20 years, depending on the type, the type
16 of ammunitions.
17 Q. You talked here about bullets and indicated that they get
18 packaged and used as new bullets for the next 15 or 20 years, depending
19 on the type, the type of ammunitions.
20 But with regard to mines, do mines have the same -- what I would
21 call, and I don't know if this is a proper military term, but do mines
22 have the same shelf-life that bullets have, or is their shelf-life
24 A. In essence, it's the same. I can expand perhaps.
25 The basic components used to determine shelf-life is the
1 gunpowder and explosive material. We have a separate centre, an
2 institution used to monitor the production of ammunitions. When any type
3 of ammunition is produced, parts of explosive material are exempt and
4 deposited in such monitoring centres. Each batch, each series is
5 monitored for end date, and that is why I cannot tell you precisely what
6 the shelf-life is for each and every type of ammunition.
7 Q. I have the distinct impression that you're starting to speed up
8 in the delivery of your answers. If you could slow down a bit, I think
9 it would be helpful to all. And I do apologise for interrupting you.
10 A. I'll try.
11 The shelf-life, after a general refitting process, depends on the
12 shelf-life or degree of reliability and stability of such components
13 built in during that process. In case of new ammunition, such materials
14 are also monitored for their shelf-life.
15 Q. I'd like to double-check something. On line 6, your answer reads
16 the shelf-life after a generally fitting process?
17 THE INTERPRETER: General refitting process.
18 Q. And when you use the term "refitting," do you use that term in
19 a -- in a fashion that synonymous with the term "repair." Is that the
20 same term that you're using, they have the same meaning for you with
21 regard the type of activity that's occurring?
22 A. No, that's not the same type of activity. Repair is simply
23 removing a single malfunction or two or three of them in a vehicle, for
24 example. However, general refitting or a overhaul includes activities
25 precisely prescribed by technological processes. They encompass a larger
1 scope or a type of work that needs to be included in that process.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying refitting means overhauling? Did
3 you hear my question?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That would be what we refer
5 to as general overhaul.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: In cases of "vehicles," we
7 believe the more appropriate term would be "overhaul." In case of
8 "ammunition," "refitting" seems to be the better term.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH:
11 Q. With that in mind, I'd like, if you could, to explain in a brief
12 manner the subject of reserves. And if you could tell us whether or not
13 there's one system of reserves or multiple systems of reserves, to your
14 knowledge, within VJ were there at the time that you were engaged in your
15 work in the VJ.
16 A. It's a very broad area pertaining to the army as a whole.
17 Globally speaking, reserves are categorised as wartime reserves and
18 peacetime reserves or stocks. Wartime reserves are found at troop level,
19 army level, and at the level of the Supreme Command. Peacetime stocks
20 are usually found at the level of the Supreme Command and, to a certain
21 extent, at the middle level.
22 Q. Let's stop right there and discuss the issue of wartime reserves
23 which you have told us are found at -- from what I can tell, three
24 different areas. And by that I mean, troop level, army level, and the
25 level of Supreme Commander.
1 With regard to the troop level of reserves, wartime reserves that
2 is, what are you referring to?
3 A. Anything used in a war needs to be stockpiled in case there is a
4 war and resupplied in times of war. Those are such reserves that a
5 particular unit carries with it, enabling it to engage in combat
6 activities according to a pre-planned or envisaged number of days of
8 Q. And with regard to the wartime reserves that existed at a troop
9 level, can you tell us what happens when those reserves are exhausted, or
10 is that something that does happen?
11 A. If I understand your question well, if a unit is implementing
12 certain tasks, be it in times of peace or war, it consumes. It uses a
13 certain level of assets. The resupply needs to come from a higher level
14 so as to enable the unit to continue pursuing those activities in
15 peacetime and in wartime for a certain number of days.
16 Q. And with regard to the resupply or replenishment to the troop
17 level, where does that come from?
18 A. Well, let me put it this way. Every army has a hierarchical
19 system of provisions. In other words there are several levels in
20 providing various materials. For instance, if a unit expends a certain
21 amount of some materiel, that will be resupplied by its subordinate
22 [as interpreted] command and, for the most part, this is done from the
23 army stockpiles, army reserves.
24 Q. On line 14, I'm looking at the answer, it says:
25 "If a unit expends a certain amount of some materiel, that will
1 be resupplied by its subordinate command."
2 And that's a bit confusing to me. Would that be accurate, and
3 I'm wondering if I have a translation --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It should be
5 "superior command."
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much.
7 Q. So for the troop, the next level up, would be what -- what would
8 that be called? Would that be the army? Would it go directly from the
9 troop to the army in terms of superior command?
10 A. Well, that depends. For instance, if we are a brigade its
11 superior command would be a corps.
12 Q. And as we go up the chain, as it were, in terms of reserves, do
13 each one of these sections have their own reserves designated as
14 belonging -- or designating as being to their benefit?
15 A. That's correct. Each level of command has their own designated
16 amount of reserves.
17 Q. Now with regard to the issue of the reserves of the Supreme
18 Command, are those reserves, the reserves of the Supreme Command,
19 reserves that are utilised in the pipeline of replenishment to the troops
20 in the -- in wartime?
21 A. That's exactly what their purpose is.
22 Q. And with regard to the wartime reserves of the Supreme Command,
23 are those wartime reserves held collectively with all the others; or is
24 there some way that the reserves are designated as belonging to, for
25 example, the Supreme Command, as opposed to any army, corps, or brigade?
1 A. Well, that would depend on the type of asset. A large part of
2 the wartime reserves of the army and the Supreme Command are stockpiled
3 in the same depots. But if you remember what we said about the material
4 lists, they are completely separate. So they are held in the same depots
5 but for record purposes, they are separate.
6 Q. When you say they -- when you say that for record purposes they
7 are separate, just so we have some understanding here, are the -- are
8 they also physically kept separate from the other reserves? And by this
9 I mean, do you have, for example, a designation that says, reserves
10 Supreme Command; reserves 1st Army; reserves, corps; reserves, brigade.
11 So you have actually in the area they are separated physically or is it a
12 paper separation?
13 A. Well, you see, our army was large and we had ammunition depots
14 with a large number of warehouses. For instance, one depot sometimes had
15 30 -- up to 36 warehouses. And those warehouses were specifically
16 designated and the handlers of those warehouses were different. Some
17 handlers handled the army reserves whereas others handled the reserves of
18 the command -- the Supreme Command. Because it didn't make financial
19 sense, it wasn't efficient to hold the same assets in several different
20 physical warehouses or areas because those facilities had to be protected
21 from blasts. They had to be especially built. The power supply had to
22 be in the so-called S-system, and there are many other specifications and
23 rules and requirements to stockpile those reserves in a Safe way.
24 Q. You introduced here a concept which is a power supply that had to
25 be in the so-called S-system. Could you describe for us, obviously in
1 general terms, was the S-system is so that we understand the importance
2 of it and why there had to be a power supply that had a particular kind
3 of power or particular kind of electric -- electric format?
4 A. Well, I just mentioned the power supply but the stockpiling or
5 keeping reserves of ammunition and, of course, that would be different
6 for tanks and cannons which are also stored in warehouses. But the
7 regulations are very strict and very detailed. So, for instance, you're
8 not allowed to use a certain type of shoe that can cause a certain
9 electric short circuit or -- and the electric power system, the S-system
10 is such that it makes it impossible for -- which makes it impossible for
11 a short circuit to occur anywhere within that system. That would be
12 roughly speaking.
13 Q. Okay. That's understood. With regard to the reserves that
14 existed in the system of those reserves for purposes of the designation
15 war reserves, have you covered the -- not the entirety in terms of every
16 detail, but have you -- you've covered the basic system as it relates to
17 war reserves. Because if we -- I'm going move on to peacetime reserves
18 in a moment, but I want to make sure that we have fully ventilated this
19 particular area of reserves.
20 A. Yes. In brief, that is a very complex system, and very
21 responsible, in terms of security and its significance for the state.
22 Q. Now with regard to the -- the issue of use and replenishment, I
23 take it that the -- at the end of every fiscal year, calendar year, or
24 planning year, when you were talking about planning the budget for the
25 next year, if it was the next -- for the next annual year or for the next
1 five years, since you discussed both kinds of plans, the use of materiel
2 and ultimately of the amount of materiel that was left was something of
3 considerable importance to your planning?
4 A. Absolutely. The quantities were very important. I have to say
5 that every tactical handler, if you recall when we discussed this, had to
6 take care and be aware of the quantities of his reserves. In other
7 words, the technical service is not in charge of the quantities that will
8 be stored, but, rather, the handler himself is responsible to plan the
9 expenditure of those assets in the course of the dynamics of the work
10 that is done.
11 Q. Now with regard to the issue of peacetime reserves, was the
12 system of peacetime reserves, storage and use, distinct from that of war
14 A. As for my service itself, the system was the same within our
15 service. Ammunition of any type, whether it was wartime reserve or
16 peacetime reserve, for me, in terms of its safekeeping, it -- it was
17 absolutely identical. The system was identical.
18 Q. And I -- I want to go back here, because perhaps we have a
19 translation issue; perhaps not.
20 With regard to the -- the matter that you were discussing just a
21 moment ago, that being the importance of having accurate understanding of
22 this information for your planning, your answer states at line 23:
23 "In other words, the technical service is not in charge of
24 quantities that will be stored, but, rather, the handler himself is
25 responsible to plan the expenditure of those" quantities, as I'm assuming
1 the word that's missing, "in the course of the dynamic of the work that
2 is done."
3 And my question to you is: Is it the handler who is responsible
4 plan the expenditure of those quantities?
5 A. No I did not say that it was a handler. I -- rather, I said that
6 this was determined by the level -- the tactical level. In other words,
7 those who are responsible to implement it at their -- at the tactical
9 If you'd like me to explain it in more detail, I can do that.
10 Q. Please do so, because I want to make sure that we know who is
11 responsible for the job that is being performed.
12 A. Well, when we discussed the General Staff for instance in the
13 land army of the General Staff. The land armies consisted of several
14 administrations: The infantry administration, the armoured mechanised
15 administration, the artillery administration, engineering administration,
16 the chemical and biological weapons administration, and perhaps I didn't
17 number them all, but if now we look at one of these administration, for
18 instance the infantry administration, it is responsible, it is the
19 holder. It is the subject and the planner and it will use all the
20 infantry ammunition and weapons and it will take care and be responsible
21 for replenishment of the reserves and their expenditures.
22 If we're talking about the armoured administration, that
23 administration would be responsible for handling and utilisation of the
24 armoured vehicles to take care of the replenishment of ammunition for the
25 armoured assets and the same is true for the engineering administration.
1 Or me, for instance, I was in charge - in the logistics sector - I was in
2 charge of electrical energy and the assets used therefore, and also for
3 equipment, tools, workshops, and maintenance and repairs for all the
4 assets that are used with an army unit. I think this would be it in
6 In other words let me repeat. These subjects were responsible
7 for the quantities of reserves, their expenditures, their issuance and
8 utilisation; whereas, the technical service was in charge of securing and
9 stockpiling those and issuing them at the time when it is so required.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. Ordered by them.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Once again just to double-check something here.
14 Q. In your last answer you said at line 23, "whereas the technical
15 service was in charge of securing and stockpiling those and issuing them
16 at the time whens it is so required.
17 Is that technical service or is that technical something else?
18 Is the term "technical service" the appropriate term to be using right
20 A. Yes. Generally speaking the technical service or, rather, the
21 units and institutions within the technical service.
22 Q. Thank you, I'm --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also said starting from line 19 on the other
25 "These subjects were responsible for the quantities of reserves,
1 their expenditure, their issuance, and utilisation; whereas, the
2 technical service ..."
3 What do you call -- what was the official name of these subjects?
4 Earlier you used the word "handler." I don't know whether those
5 are the handlers.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can only repeat one more
7 time: We're not talking here about handlers but, rather, about agents or
8 subjects at the tactical level such as, for instance, the infantry
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but what do you mean by subject? These are
11 people, I suppose, and what -- what -- is that the official name? They
12 are called subjects?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The administration -- the infantry
14 administration, which, under the regulations, is responsible for that
15 specific area. They are responsible for certain tasks, for instance.
16 Those would be the subjects. We called them the tactical subjects or
17 agents. Implementers.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So some are tactical; others are technical.
19 Those who looked after stockpiling are called technical.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Support, technical support, yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH:
23 Q. And with regard to the issue of peacetime reserves, you indicated
24 that they were -- for your purposes, your work was essentially the same.
25 With regard to the issue of accounting and the need to have accurate
1 records for purposes of planning, as regards a peacetime army, once
2 again, would accurate records be of importance to you, in terms of being
3 able to plan for the future, be it an annual or a five-year plan?
4 A. I believe I've said that a number of times.
5 For a tactical level subject, or agent, it is very important to
6 know exactly what quantities of assets there are in -- in the whole
7 system of warehouses.
8 Maybe you didn't hear me. It is very important for every
9 tactical level subject to know exactly how much of what there is
11 Q. Irrespective of whether or not we're dealing with the issue of
12 being a peacetime army, wartime army, or an army that's in flux, as a
13 bottom line, which you've said here, which is:
14 "It is very important for every tactical level subject to know
15 exactly how much of what there is available."
16 A. Absolutely. I can confirm what you've just said.
17 Q. And in the absence of -- in the absence for your purposes -- for
18 your job of knowing what was available, what difficulties did it create
19 for you, if any?
20 A. Well, for us, it was important in terms of providing technical
21 support, building and reconstructing warehouses, collecting certain types
22 of materials in order to be more efficient. And I can tell you for
23 instance that each facility that had stockpiles of rifles or pistols or
24 similar weapons, they had to be especially fitted with special methods of
25 stockpiling them, in order to prevent possible burglaries. For us, it
1 was important to have this at our disposal, in the economic sense, the
2 stockpiles that are available for the tactical level users, or subjects.
3 Q. And with regard to what you've just said, is that the -- is that
4 the only importance that existed, or were there other reasons why it was
5 important for you to know what was available?
6 A. Well, I can't -- nothing else really comes to mind as to what
7 kind of other problems there might be.
8 Q. Very well. Hopefully there were no other problems.
9 I believe that the system is working again. And if such be the
10 case, then I would like us to turn to P589.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine, except we have three minutes to
12 dispose of before we take a break.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Why don't we take a break now then.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You want to --
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I can try. Let me try.
16 Q. If you could turn to your binder to P589.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: 589.
18 Q. With regard to this particular document, I'd like you to take a
19 look at -- as we have done before, the upper left-hand corner. I note
20 that in box number 4, there is the name and the address of a sender.
21 Do you see that?
22 I'm sorry, there is information contained in box number 4
23 concerning the name and address of a sender.
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I see it.
1 Q. And what does it say?
2 A. It is TRZ, Kragujevac.
3 Q. Okay. I'm going to now go to the right-hand side of the
4 document, the upper right-hand side of the document. I note that no
5 information is contained in any of the boxes except for box number 14.
6 Can you confirm that?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 Q. With regard do box number 14, could you tell what it says, sir.
9 A. 30th -- or 30.KC.
10 Q. And do you know what that stands for?
11 A. As far as I know, that stands for personnel centre.
12 Q. And with regard to this issue which is an issue that we discussed
13 yesterday, is this an address where logistics could be sent, the 30th
14 Personnel Centre?
15 A. I cannot confirm that. I cannot say that with certainty. But,
16 as far as I knew, the 30th KC, that administration was in Belgrade
17 down-town Belgrade. So it didn't make sense, for instance, for someone
18 from Kragujevac to send ammunition to Belgrade. I believe that this has
19 to do with something else. There's something -- something else going on
21 Q. Very well. And after the break, we'll pick up ...
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 We will take a break and come back at 4.00.
24 Court adjourned.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 3.58 p.m.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH:
4 Q. In your last answer before the break, you said: "There's
5 something else going on here."
6 Do you recall making that statement, sir?
7 A. Yes, I said so.
8 Q. Could you tell us what you meant by that.
9 A. I see that it only says the 30th KC, and I can't say what could
10 be behind that. I only know of the 30th Personnel Centre.
11 Q. And just for a moment, with regard to the 30th Personnel Centre,
12 do you know whether or not the 30th Personnel Centre was a name or
13 designation for some specific institution other than that which is named
15 A. I don't have much knowledge about the 30th Personnel Centre.
16 Q. Very well.
17 Continuing looking at the document, if we could, and directing
18 your attention to box 24, a box that we have discussed before. Can you
19 confirm that there is no nomenclature of either 12 or 13 digits in that
21 A. Yes. Only the first four digits are there.
22 Q. And with regard to the --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we can scroll down to the bottom of the
24 document, left-hand side.
25 Q. Do you see that there's -- both signatures as well as a stamp in
1 boxes 32, 37, and 38?
2 A. Yes, I can see that.
3 Q. And with regard to the right hand -- bottom portion of the
4 document, sir. If we could scroll to the right.
5 With regard to the right hand portion of the document, would you
6 agree that there is no signature in boxes 39 [sic], 40, 41?
7 A. Aren't you referring to boxes 40, 41, and 42?
8 Q. Yes, I am. And if I misspoke, your correction is appreciated.
9 A. Yes. Because that concerns receipt. There is no signature
11 Q. And can you confirm there's no stamp?
12 A. There is none.
13 Q. Between 1993 and 1996, I wonder if you can help us with regard to
14 an issue concerning your knowledge of whether or not there was any war
15 profiteering that occurred concerning assets of the -- of your -- of the
16 depots that you were involved in?
17 A. I cannot confirm that.
18 Q. Okay. With regard to the -- the general issue of -- of war
19 profiteering, was that a matter that was of concern to the technical
20 administration at any level?
21 A. The technical administration did not deal with that. However, we
22 were concerned, if such information reached us.
23 Q. And do you recall any such information reaching you?
24 A. No, I can't recall any. It was a long time ago. I presume I
25 would need to be more specific, but I cannot recall anything.
1 Q. Very well.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could see P592.
3 Q. Now for P592, directing your attention to the upper left-hand
4 corner, would you confirm that in the -- those boxes that we have been
5 having discussions about, the only information that's contained in the
6 upper left-hand corner is the box at number 4, where it says VJ?
7 A. I confirm that. And at the top of the page, it says "receipt."
8 Q. You say at the top of the page it says "receipt." Are you
9 referring to the -- to the -- the typed-in word which looks to me like
11 A. Yes, precisely.
12 Q. That word means "receipt"?
13 A. Yes, receipt. It means it was received.
14 Q. Very well. Before we go any further, I would note for the record
15 that the translation is "delivery," not "receipt." In the English
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: So this, unlike the matters that we referred to
18 before, which were not subject to translation errors but, rather,
19 insertions, into the document, this would seem to be a translation issue.
20 I'm waiting for my -- my colleague to make a determination,
21 although he seems to be have having some further inquiry, so I will
22 continue on and we will get back to it today.
23 Now, if we could go to the --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I believe Mr. Thomas is standing up.
25 MR. THOMAS: [Microphone not activated] Sorry, my mic is not
1 working, Your Honours.
2 Thank you. The difficulty for me, Your Honours, is, obviously, I
3 can't tell what the appropriate translation of the word is. We just have
4 to leave that for the moment.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well. That's all right.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
7 And if we could go to the lower left-hand side of the document,
8 which will be on -- the next page in -- in English.
9 Q. Do you see any entries in -- in the left-hand side of the
10 document in boxes number 32, 37, 38, 39?
11 A. I don't see anything. I only note the stamp over box 39.
12 Q. Could you tell us looking at that stamp where's that stamp from,
13 if you can tell? Where does it signify it's from would be a better way
14 of putting it.
15 A. The stamp reads: Military Post 7111, Han Pijesak.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind us, in which former republic of the
17 SFRY is Han Pijesak?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Bosnia and Herzegovina.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Now, with regard to the upper right-hand side of
21 the document, can we take a look at that, please.
22 Q. And focussing your attention on box number 14, could you tell us
23 what it says?
24 A. It says: "Drina Corps Command."
25 Q. And with regard to the informations contained in box 24, there
1 are a number of different entries. Can you confirm for us that there is
2 no nomenclature of either a 12- or 13-digit nature.
3 A. I can confirm that.
4 Q. And finally looking at the lower right-hand side of this
5 particular document. I note that there is in boxes number 40 and 41
6 typewritten what seems to be signatures. And that would be on the --
7 there you go. The second page of the English.
8 Can you confirm that?
9 A. [No interpretation]
10 Q. Could you do us another kindness and remind us --
11 A. It seems so to me, too.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, we didn't hear the interpreter.
13 THE INTERPRETER: It seems so to me too. The missing answer,
14 witness answer.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH:
17 Q. Could you do us the kindness of going back to the information
18 that's contained in box number 4 where it says "VJ" and tell us what, if
19 any, information that gives you with regard to the delivery of material?
20 A. Well, this is the usual short form for Yugoslav Army, VJ.
21 Q. Okay. With regard to it designating the name and place of sender
22 for purposes of tracking where information came from, of what assistance
23 is this information to you?
24 A. It's not of much help.
25 Q. And why is that?
1 A. If this has to do with the Army of Yugoslavia, then you know very
2 well what size of territory it encompassed.
3 Q. And when you say that, I -- I take it that you -- I do know that
4 it was a large territory. But can you be more specific in your comments
5 as to why this is a difficulty, or why it is of little or no help?
6 A. Yes, now I understand the thrust of your question better.
7 It means that if these quantities were, indeed, supplied, no
8 identification can be made in terms of what tactical agent saw their
9 tactical reserves reduced. I cannot say whose reserves this came from.
10 Q. If we could -- thank you.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we now see P595.
12 Q. Referring your attention to the upper left-hand corner and
13 specifically referring your attention to box number 4, is the information
14 that's contained in box number 4 an address?
15 A. It says NGS - VJ POV.BR,.85 - 89 of 22.09.95.
16 Q. To your knowledge, is that an address?
17 A. No. The reference is to an order or a document, I suppose.
18 Q. Now, that is the only part of the form that's filled out in the
19 upper left-hand corner, and by that I am referring to the boxes 1 through
21 Can you confirm that?
22 A. I can.
23 Q. And I want to move in to the right-hand side of the document,
24 going to box 14. In the previous exhibit that we saw, there was a stamp,
25 and I believe that you indicated that -- that the stamp contained the
1 same information that's contained in -- in box 14, and by that I mean
2 Military Post 7111, Han Pijesak?
3 A. It only says H. Pijesak, as opposed to the stamp.
4 Q. You are absolutely correct. And with regard to this
5 military post, do you know apart from this military post being in the
6 former -- at one point in the former SFRY and in Bosnia-Herzegovina, do
7 you know where this -- where this military post was physically?
8 A. No. I don't have any idea.
9 Q. Do you know --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Mr. Guy-Smith, your question was -- in the
11 previous exhibit that we saw there was a stamp, and I believe that you
12 indicated that that stamp contained the name -- information that's
13 contained in box 14, and by that I mean military post. I'm not quite
14 sure, are you suggesting that that stamp was in box 14 or are you
15 suggesting that what we saw on that stamp is the information that is now
16 in box 14?
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: You -- you -- you have put it precisely with
18 regard to the second part. And I wasn't trying to be confusing. I was
19 talking about the information itself. Not the stamp, but the information
20 itself that is contained on the stamp.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could direct our attention to box 24.
23 Q. Once again, in terms of the issue surrounding nomenclature, would
24 you confirm that there is no nomenclature with regard to any of the six
25 types of supplies that are listed?
1 A. I confirm that.
2 Q. And if we could go down -- excuse me, if we could scroll -- thank
3 you very much.
4 Before we get to the bottom of the -- the form, after box number
5 6, there's some writing. Could you tell us what that says. It's a
6 handwritten -- it's handwriting without a number in front of it. Can you
7 tell us what that says?
8 A. In the box number 6?
9 Q. Directly below box number 6. In terms -- after the -- where you
10 look at the type of supplies, there's six supplies listed. You go to the
11 centre of the document. You're --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. There's something --
14 A. I can see that.
15 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
16 A. It says concluded with the ordinal number 6.
17 Q. After that, do you see anything further in that particular area
18 of the document, the centre of the document. Is there any other
19 handwritten information or -- or typewritten information?
20 A. Not in my document.
21 Q. Okay. I would note for the record that in the English document
22 the following is inserted: "/illegible/ NGS-VJ/? Chief of General Staff,"
23 which is initial caps "- initial caps, Yugoslav Army /85-89, dated on
25 This insertion is not contained on the original document, which
1 has been introduced as plaintiff's 595.
2 MR. THOMAS: If I could just see the entire document in B/C/S,
3 please, Your Honours.
4 Thank you. That's accepted.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Now we're going to the lower left hand section of
7 the document.
8 Q. Do you confirm there's no data in any of the --
9 A. I can.
10 Q. -- left hand section -- bottom left hand section of the document
11 which we have been discussing with, I believe all of the documents before
12 boxes 32, 37, 38, and 39.
13 A. I can confirm that there's no information therein.
14 Q. And with regard to the -- below the documents -- below those
15 boxes that we just referred, do you see any information whatsoever,
16 handwritten or typewritten. Directly below those boxes, do you see
17 anything at all in the document that you're looking at? Any handwriting
18 like a note or anything else?
19 A. You mean below boxes 37, 38, and 39?
20 Q. Yes, that's correct.
21 A. On the copy before me, there is nothing.
22 Q. And I would note for purposes of the record concerning the same
23 document, in the English version it says "VSB," that's all in caps,
24 "/expansion unknown/," then a line or two is dropped and it says
25 "/handwritten:/Tomo Basevic." Tomo is spelled T-o-m-o, and Basevic is
1 spelled B-a-s-e-v-i-c.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber would note that in the B/C/S --
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I see that --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- there is an abbreviation "VSB."
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I just saw that abbreviation, Your Honour, and
6 I -- therefore retract that particular remark, but with regard to the
7 secondary remark concerning "/handwritten:/Tomo Basevic," I maintain the
8 position that I previously took.
9 MR. THOMAS: In respect of that document, sir, I wish to sight
10 the original before I take a position.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
12 Q. And concerning the lower right-hand side of the document, can you
13 confirm there is no stamp?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: P596, please.
16 Q. Now this document contains information contained in box 4;
17 correct? On the upper left-hand side.
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Now, going to the bottom of the document - left-hand side - which
20 would be on page 2 of the English, is there any information whatsoever in
21 any of those boxes on the lower left-hand side concerning who it was
22 approved by, from the sender's standpoint, who it was ordered by, from
23 the sender's standpoint, who the manager was, from the sender's
24 standpoint, or who it was entered by?
25 A. There is no information here whatsoever. But to avoid any
1 confusion, the VSB acronym means the military printing office, Belgrade.
2 That was the entity that produced this form. This was not a handwritten
4 Q. Thank you. And if we could turn to the right-hand side of this
5 document, I note there is a stamp and signatures. Can you confirm that?
6 A. Yes, I can.
7 Q. Now, using, for a moment, P596, for purposes of some of the
8 discussion we've had before, and specifically referring to the bottom
9 left-hand portion of this document, wherein there is no data whatsoever,
10 could you tell us what, if any, problems or difficulties are created by
11 this absence of information with regard to relying upon the accuracy of a
13 A. Well, we talked about this yesterday, and we saw what the
14 regulations were concerning this. In other words, without accurately
15 entered information in the forms by the provider and without information
16 confirming receipt, I cannot really take this to be accurate.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we now please see P597.
19 Q. Now, I think we have before us a different kind of document,
20 refreshingly. And I'd like you to take a look at the document and see
21 whether you can be of any assistance and comment on what kind of a
22 document is this?
23 A. In the left-hand corner, information is missing about the sender.
24 If I may put it that way. It says SOUR and then below that, RO, and then
25 it says KR, in parentheses, and then it says telegram and telex. As far
1 as can I see the number is 10 through 21.
2 So a portion of the text is missing. Now, this is a form --
3 Q. Let me stop you there for the moment.
4 Do you know what SOUR stands for?
5 A. That is an acronym for complex organisation of associated labour,
6 because, at the time, that is what -- how business was done in our parts.
7 Q. And when you say "at that time that is how business was done in
8 our parts," is the -- and I'll use the acronym here, was the SOUR a state
9 company, a private company? Could you be of some assistance to us with
10 regard to that?
11 A. Yes. The SOURs and OURs were state-owned companies, or, rather,
12 socially owned companies.
13 Q. And when you say that they were socially owned companies just --
14 for purposes of clarity, were these socially owned companies both under
15 the SFRY and under FRY so that after the breakup of the former Yugoslavia
16 in and FRY there still existed socially owned companies?
17 A. During the SFRY they did exist; whereas, in FRY the process of
18 privatisation began, or, rather, the transfer of property and capital was
19 done in a different manner. So that, at first, and I'm not sure whether
20 even to this day some of these remnants still live on, because this is a
21 process, an ongoing process, and privatisation is under way in our parts.
22 How far it has gone, I don't know, because I haven't really been privy to
24 Q. And when you say it was a socially owned company, who was it
25 owned by?
1 A. Well, now you're asking me about things that I'm not really an
2 expert for. But I can say this. There used to exist state capital and
3 social capital in our country and that is how the companies were also
4 established and -- but I can't really tell you anything more about that.
5 Q. And with regard to this SOUR was this a company that was under
6 the authority of the army?
7 A. It was not within the army, but it was a state-owned company.
8 Q. With regard to the information that is contained in this
9 document, looking at this information, can you tell us under the name of
10 the item number 1, what is the item?
11 A. If I understand this correctly, under number 2, it says 82
12 millimetre shell M86.
13 Q. What's that?
14 A. And I don't know, below that there is something reading 9301-1.
15 Q. And in the box above that, number 1, what is -- what is inserted
16 into that box?
17 A. I think it says there "incendiary shell, 120 millimetre."
18 Q. Now going to the right of -- of the number 1 where you think it
19 says incendiary shell, 120 millimetre, there's a place that indicates how
20 many were ordered and how many were issued.
21 Can you confirm that that's what it says on the document?
22 A. Well, here, under -- in the box entitled "Quantity," there are
23 two sub-boxes. One of them reads "ord," "ord." I assume that that is the
24 short form for "ordered." And then it says in the next box, "issued."
25 Q. I see the numbers are the same. So -- and I don't know if you
1 can confirm this or not. I assume that what this means is that 20
2 incendiary grenades of the size 120 millimetres were ordered and the same
3 was issued?
4 A. Well, I assume the same thing.
5 Q. Okay. With regard to -- with regard to the second box, which is
6 referring to 82-millimetre grenades, M-86s, 100 were ordered and a
7 hundred were issued.
8 A. Yes, precisely. And we see a letter K before that, and I assume
9 that stands for "pieces." So 100 were ordered and 100 were issued.
10 Q. Now, with regard to the discussion that we were having the
11 other -- we were having the other day, in terms of heavy weaponry, what
12 is the significance, if any, of 120 millimetres?
13 A. That is a shell that is used for mortars which has a
14 120-millimetre diameter or phi.
15 Q. And for the purposes of dealing with the issue of whether such a
16 shell is a light weapon, a medium weapon, or a heavy weapon, are you in a
17 position to give us any assistance in that regard as to whether or not a
18 120-millimetre shell could be designated in any of those three respects?
19 A. I believe that I said yesterday or the day before yesterday that
20 under the Vienna Agreement, when the weapons for our army were supposed
21 to be reduced, it was considered that all the weapons that were 76
22 millimetre in calibre were offensive weapons, but depending on the type
23 of weapons, this would not -- could not be considered heavy weapons,
24 because these weapons were part of infantry units. And I assume, as a
25 technical person, that these weapons could not be considered to be of a
1 heavy calibres because their range was not very large -- very long.
2 That's as far as I know.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Kodzopeljic, so that we can release you early
4 for you to go home, can I request that you try to keep your answers as
5 short as possible. When the question says "was this a light, medium, or
6 heavy calibre weapon," just say light weapon or just say heavy, whichever
7 the answer is. That will help us to move a little faster.
8 Thank you so much.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH:
10 Q. Once again, turning your attention to this document, do you see
11 anywhere in the document the designation "to the purchaser." Are those
12 words contained on the document?
13 A. As far as I can see, no.
14 Q. Okay. Once again, for purposes of record, they are contained in
15 the English version directly under --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note they are contained in the
17 B/C/S version as well.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Ah-hah. Okay.
19 THE INTERPRETER: In the box right of the title, dispatch note
20 number 115. It says Kupcu, K-u-p-c-u, and then there is handwritten 93.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
22 Q. I'd like you to take a look at the very bottom of the document
23 and there's a stamp there. Do you know who that stamp belonged to or
24 what -- what that stamp signifies? And by "belong to," who is the
25 company or the military unit or -- I think we've seen, for example,
1 military units. Is that a military unit stamp?
2 A. No, it isn't.
3 Q. What kind of a stamp is it?
4 A. This is a stamp, a company stamp, the Krusik Corporation, from
6 Q. So with the information -- with the information that is supplied
7 in the document to the purchaser, can you tell us, looking at this
8 document, who the purchaser is?
9 A. I assumed that it is the Drina Corps.
10 Q. I see. And --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the basis of that assumption?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it says: Dispatched to
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where does it say that, dispatched to the company.
15 Oh, okay.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's below that, where it says in bold
17 [Overlapping speakers] ...
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Overlapping speakers] ... under 115. It says
20 dispatched to the company [Overlapping speakers] --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- Vlasenica.
23 Q. And, finally, with regard to this document, do you see a date on
24 this document?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. And what date is that?
2 A. November 4, 1993.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could see plaintiff's 598.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. GUY-SMITH:
7 Q. The last dispatch note number we looked at in people's 597 was
8 dispatch number 115. Could you tell us what the dispatch note number is
9 on this document?
10 A. 175.
11 Q. Could you give us the date of this document, please.
12 A. I'm not sure whether it's the 20th or 28th of December, and I
13 assume 1993. 1993.
14 Q. And when you say you assume 1993, do you see those numbers on
15 this document a 9 and a 3.
16 A. The 3 is legible but the 9, not really.
17 Q. Okay. The last document that we looked at, P597, was dispatched
18 to the company Drina Corps Vlasenica. Could you tell us, according to
19 this document, who were the items dispatched to with regard to dispatch
20 note number 175?
21 A. Do you mean what is -- what it says there?
22 Q. That's correct.
23 A. Under number 1, incendiary shell, 120 -- I apologise.
24 Q. All I'm asking is who was it dispatched to. It says, similar to
25 the last document there's a notation of who this material is dispatched
1 to. It says: Dispatched to the company. And who is the company that
2 this is dispatched to?
3 A. Military Post 7111, Vlasenica.
4 Q. And if you look at the -- at the bottom, is it -- is this, once
5 again, the Krusik stamp?
6 A. Well, yes, you can see it at the bottom.
7 Q. I'm hoping can you help us here. Looking at these last two
8 documents, considering the information that's contained in them with
9 regard to the -- with -- a dispatch note number indicating to the
10 purchaser and that the parties involved being the Drina Corps in the
11 first document that we saw, 597, and VP Military Post 711, Vlasenica, in
12 the second document. Could you tell us whether or not this involves the
13 sale of these items, that these items were being sold that were being
15 A. Well, here it says that it has only been delivered.
16 Q. Okay. With regard to the information considering it says to the
17 purchasers. Is that of any help to us in that regard or not, or would
18 you need further information to make that determination?
19 JUDGE DAVID: I have a question for the witness.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, following this there should
23 be an invoice sent to the company.
24 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Witness, this corporation the manufacturer,
25 Krusik, Valjevo, was under the supervision or the control of the VJ
1 according to your knowledge?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was not. It was not.
3 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you for that clarification, Judge.
6 Q. You indicated that there should be an invoice sent to the
7 company. In the absence of the invoice, all you can tell us with regard
8 to this document is that it is a -- it indicates that it was sent. I
9 want to use your words directly.
10 Yeah, there should be an invoice sent to the company. Thank you.
11 A. Well, the invoice may have sent by mail.
12 Q. It may have been, but since we don't have one before us, I'm not
13 asking you to speculate in that regard.
14 A. Correct.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I figured out a way of speeding some of this up,
16 so if you give me just a moment, I'm going to get through a series of
17 these exhibits.
18 Q. Are you familiar with a company or institution called Pretis?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Where was Pretis located?
21 A. In the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 Q. And to your knowledge, in 1993 was Pretis under the control of
23 the Bosnia-Herzegovina government, the Republika Srpska government, or
24 some other government?
25 A. As far as I can remember, it was under the control of the
1 government of Republika Srpska.
2 Q. Now, what was the function of Pretis?
3 A. Well, I cannot really answer that with certainty, but some
4 weapons systems, for sure.
5 Q. And when you say "some weapons systems for sure," were those
6 weapons systems that were being produced? Were those weapons systems
7 that were being repaired? Were those weapons systems that were being
8 maintained? Any of those; all of those; none of those.
9 A. They actually manufactured weapons systems.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. GUY-SMITH:
12 Q. When -- when -- I just want to make sure that I'm understanding
13 what you're saying with regard to the translations.
14 Did you say weapons systems, did you say weaponry, or did you say
15 weapons with regard to what Pretis manufactured.
16 A. No. I said -- I said weapon assets.
17 Q. Okay. When you say "weapon assets," could you define for us what
18 you mean by weapon assets.
19 A. For instance, a cannon. That is a weapon asset.
20 Q. Okay. Now with regard to the size of Pretis, if you know, and by
21 that I mean physically, the size of the plant, can you tell us how big it
22 was? If you know.
23 A. I think it was a big plant.
24 Q. Okay. Do you by any chance -- once again if you know, if you
25 don't know, that's fine. Do you by any chance have any idea as to what
1 its production capacity was?
2 A. No, I don't know that.
3 Q. And when you say it was a big plant, can -- can you tell us once
4 again if you know, from a standpoint of size, how many hectares or
5 kilometres if it actually covered that kind of an area, it covered? And
6 I do believe that --
7 A. Oh, that, especially, I wouldn't know anything about.
8 Q. And just to remind the Chamber, I believe Pretis is one of the
9 places that we had occasion to visit during our site visit.
10 I'd like to --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just wanted to say that if we are talking in
12 terms of area, then kilometre would be an inappropriate word to use. It
13 would have to be square kilometres.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: You're absolutely right.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... you said hectares.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I said hectares and I should have said square
18 Could we please have P978.
19 Q. Looking at the upper left-hand corner. We still don't have the
20 English up but that's where I will be focussing your attention.
21 Whose the document from?
22 A. Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, logistics sector,
23 technical department.
24 Q. What is the date?
25 A. 28 June 1990 -- and I can't see what year exactly.
1 Q. Going down after the section that discusses who this is to be
2 delivered to and where it says "for," there's a paragraph that says:
3 "Based on the order of the head of staff, hd Pretis, from Vogosca
4 shall issue the following ammunition types and quantities for the needs
5 of the Ilidza pbr."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, that's what it says.
8 Q. Thereafter, there are six entries concerning various types of
9 weapons or material for weapons.
10 A. This is ammunition. Shells, rounds.
11 Q. Thank you. That's perfect. That's fine. No need to go further,
12 that's fine.
13 And with regard to the bottom, it says that: "The approved
14 ammunition shall be collected by an Ilidza Brigade representative. And
15 the commands of the Ilidza Brigade and Vogosca headquarters, Pretis shall
16 agree on the dynamics of delivery."
17 Could you comment on that what means as to who was delivering
18 what to who?
19 A. The holding corporation, Pretis, delivered assets to the Drina
20 Brigade. They delivered the assets specified.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have P1064 on the screen.
23 I'm sorry, I'm hearing a question. I'm not sure. I am.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, you you're saying the holding company or
25 corporation Pretis delivered assets. I thought this would be an order,
1 not a delivery.
2 "Based on the order of the head of staff, hd Pretis from Vogosca
3 shall issue the following." Is this something that is still to be
4 issued? It's not been delivered yet. Whether it was delivered, there
5 would have to be some other documentation following this one. That's my
7 Wouldn't you agree with that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are correct. I may have been
9 wrong about that.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Okay. Thank you so much. That's
11 all [Microphone not activated].
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just following up on your question, Your Honour.
13 Q. All said and done, this is a transaction that exists between the
14 VRS and Pretis. Those are the parties to this transaction?
15 A. Yes, precisely.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for asking that question. When I
17 hesitated, that's the question I wanted to ask. But can I follow up on
19 Do you know what the command of Ilidza pbr Infantry Brigade is?
20 You don't know.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I don't know that.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do know who the commander of the SRK,
23 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then if you don't know the Sarajevo-Romanija
1 Corps, I believe you wouldn't know the SRK, IKM-2, the Sarajevo-Romanija
2 Corps forward command post?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know what "hd" stands for?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Holding.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: 1064, please.
8 Q. If you could take a moment and take a look at this document.
9 There are a number -- there are a number of pages in the document, so I'd
10 like you to take a look. Go to your binder, please, 1064. I think it
11 might be easier for you, because that way you can look at all of the
12 pages that are contained in this document. There's seven total pages
13 in -- in hard copy in English.
14 A. I found it.
15 Q. If you could just -- if you could look at the document, just for
16 a moment. Review the document. Have you had a chance to review the
17 entire document?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. I'd like to turn to the second page of the document, if I could.
20 I believe that would be in -- in both English and in B/C/S.
21 Looking at the very top of the page, where it says in B/C/S
22 "ugovor." Could you identify for us what kind of a document this is?
23 A. It is a contract between two parties.
24 Q. And could you look and tell us who the two parties are that this
25 is a contract between?
1 A. The Unis Pretis of Vogosca, and Krusik of Valjevo.
2 Q. And could you tell us what this subject matter is of the contract
3 which is contained in Article 1?
4 A. Item 1, primer to gun cartridge, and 3, primary charge for a
6 Q. Now, below that could you tell us what it says with regard to
7 this contract and equipment that this contract concerns is. There's a
8 particular sentence right after the three items that you mentioned
9 starting with "asortiman sredstava"? I'm getting better, I think.
10 A. In my document it says prices do not include packaging material
11 because the purchaser is under an obligation to have it returned, if
12 we're reading the same document.
13 Q. Okay. I'd like you to -- we are reading the same document, but
14 you've jumped ahead. I'm still in Article number 1. Right before we get
15 to Article number 2. What does it say?
16 A. Sorry, I found it now.
17 It says the contract can be amended by adding other types of
18 products, as needed by the purchasing party.
19 Q. And who was the purchasing party?
20 A. HK Krusik -- sorry. The purchasing party was Unis Pretis of
22 Q. And who was the selling party?
23 A. The selling party was HK Krusik of Valjevo.
24 Q. I'd now like to go to Article 3. And in Article 3 -- which I
25 think will be on the next page in English.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I think you are going to have to just scroll
2 down a bit in the B/C/S.
3 Q. In the B/C/S, the very last sentence on the page, could you tell
4 us what the value of the contract between the buyer, Pretis, and the
5 seller, Krusik, contemplated?
6 A. 1.277.920 dinars.
7 Q. Well, could you go to the next page in B/C/S.
8 And with regard to -- with regard to that, can you tell us what
9 the --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: You have to scroll up to the top of the page.
11 And you're going to have to scroll down in the English; I'm terribly
13 Q. Could you tell us what obligation the buyer had to the seller
14 with regards to payment?
15 A. The buyer undertakes to pay, within a period of eight days from
16 the date of the signing of the contract, an advance of 383.376 dinars,
17 which amounts to 30 per cent of the total value of the contract, on the
18 basis of an issued pro forma invoice to Giro account number
19 43900-601-7-2255 SDK, Valjevo.
20 Q. And if we could now go to Article number 9 which will be --
21 perfect. That's going on to be page, I believe it's going to be on page
22 6 of the English.
23 With regard to Article number 9 in terms of what occurs if there
24 is a dispute, looking at the second paragraph, what do the contracting
25 parties here contemplate with regard to the jurisdiction that will
1 resolve any disputes that exists between them?
2 A. The competent court would be the district commercial court in
4 Q. And with regard to that -- that competent court, what do the
5 contracting parties agree to with regard to whatever decision is reached
6 in the event there is a dispute?
7 A. Whose decision is final and enforceable for both contracting
9 Q. And looking at the very bottom of the document do you -- do you
10 see a stamp and a signature on this document?
11 A. I can see it. I see the stamps of both buyer and seller.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I note the time.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Can we leave this on the screen, because I'll have one or two
17 We'll take the break and come back at a quarter to 6.00.
18 Court adjourned.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I believe that we left off with you
23 indicating that you wanted the document left up on the screen because you
24 had a couple of questions.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. It may just be one.
1 Okay. Let me ask that question, and then I'll come back to what
2 I wanted to say.
3 Just for the record, are you able to read for us the stamps and
4 names of the people at the bottom of that contract?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm receiving French, I'm sorry.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry about that.
7 Shall I --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: My apologies.
10 Are you able to read for us the stamps and the names of the
11 peoples who have signed the document at the bottom of the document?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The right-hand side of the document
13 where it says buyer, it says "Unis Pretis, Vogosca." And on the stamp, I
14 can read "Pretis, Vogosca, Unis, Pretis," and I can't make out the rest.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much [Microphone not activated].
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The left-hand side stamp, or,
17 actually, what I can read is as follows: "Seller, HK Krusik, DD," which
18 means shareholding, "Valjevo." On the stamp I see that it says, "Krusik
19 Holding Corporation."
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, Your Honour, just before I start we
23 seem to still be having technical problems. At this point Mr. Zorko, who
24 also is our Case Manager, is not able to get on to any of the electric or
25 electronic systems that we have, be they an S-system or any other kind of
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. While he is trying that, can I say what I
3 want to say, which we can deal with without any electronics.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I also -- sure, I had a second matter that I
5 wanted to speak to briefly, but so be it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you need electronics to do what you want to
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: No.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say it then.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, during the last break I took a look at what
11 I had left to do. I also appreciate the amount of time we estimated for
12 this witness, and I'm aware of the fact that I have exceeded that time,
13 but I think that we'll be okay in terms of the overall amount of time
14 that we have, and I have truncated my examination even more so so that I
15 believe there will be but a few questions more of this witness. And then
16 I will have concluded so that -- to the extent we made an estimate that
17 was lesser than we thought, such things do occur in the fullness of a
18 trial, but I think that with regard to ultimately amount of time that
19 we'll be using we will be okay.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now when you say "but a few questions," how much
21 longer do you think you're going to be? Because that's the point I
22 wanted to raise with you anyway.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure. I think I will be no more than another 20
24 minutes, if that.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead then [Microphone not activated].
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm going to try to do this in the absence of
2 Mr. Zorko's assistance. Hopefully it will work.
3 If we could have up on the screen plaintiff's 1262. There we go.
4 Q. Could you briefly take a look at this document and tell us, if
5 you know, what kind of a document it is.
6 A. It is an order by the commander of Military Post 2082, Belgrade.
7 Q. With regard to the issue that we have been discussing for these
8 past days, armed with this order and nothing more, and by that I mean any
9 of the material lists that we have been discussing, are you able to tell
10 us whether or not this order was enacted or not; whether or not the
11 materials contained in the order were delivered or left any depot or
12 institution or not; whether they were received or not?
13 A. I can't say that this materiel was actually dispatched or sent.
14 Q. Okay.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said also that this is an order. Is this an
16 order? Or is this a request based on an order? And I called it a
17 request because it says: Please issue from the below-stated VPs. But
18 based on an order number so-and-so, of so-and-so. The request is based
19 on an order.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. In my version, it says: Issue
21 for the needs of the General Staff. It's in the imperative.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. And briefly, looking at the kinds of materiel to be issued, under
25 number 3, it has a number of rounds for 7.62-millimetre Browning. And is
1 that number in terms of -- in terms of a military distribution is that a
2 large number, a small number? It says 1.5 million pieces. Is that a
3 normal distribution amount?
4 A. In my book, this is a large quantity.
5 Q. Okay. Are you armed with any information as to --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH:
8 Q. With regard to the issue of refitting of ammunition, what period
9 of time it would take to refit one and a half million rounds of
11 A. I think I said already that the 7.62-millimetre calibre
12 ammunition is not something that can be refitted. Hence, I can't say
13 what the time amount would be.
14 Q. Okay. With regard to refitting ammunition, could you tell us
15 with regard to -- in a generic sense the refitting of ammunition how long
16 it would take to refit 1.5 million rounds of ammunition?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
18 MR. THOMAS: Objection, Your Honours. But if could I just have a
19 moment to read the transcript.
20 The witness has already answered that it can't be refitted,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: He says 7.62-millimetre calibres cannot be
23 refitted. The next question is with regards to refitting ammunition,
24 could you tell us with regard to or in a generic sense.
25 You stand by your objection?
1 MR. THOMAS: I change my objection to one of relevance,
2 Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
5 Q. With regard to 20-millimetre rounds, is that a round that can be
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are asked to repeat the answer,
10 Mr. Kodzopeljic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Such rounds go through the process
12 of general overhaul.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH:
14 Q. And could you tell us approximately how long it would take to
15 refit 20.000 rounds?
16 A. I can't say. It's done in batches and per work posts or places.
17 The whole assembly line is 150 to 200 metres long. There are points and
18 cubicles equipped in such a way so as to avoid any possibility of an
19 explosion, hence, I truly can't say.
20 Q. And, finally, with regard to the issue of -- of ammunition, could
21 you tell us, if you know, what period of time it would take for the
22 special-purpose industry factories that you are familiar with to produce
23 1.5 million rounds of ammunition, such as a 7.62-millimetre Browning.
24 A. The factory at Prvi Partizan produced 100 million rounds per
1 Q. Okay. I understood. I think that we can do the math from that
3 If we could -- if we could now have up on the screen 8 --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, are you able to help us
5 determine by looking at this document to whom it was addressed?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is addressed to three
7 military posts, Military Post 8800, Kragujevac; Military Post 5292,
8 Novi Sad; and Military Post 5292, Bogutovacka Banja. That's what's
9 stated at the bottom.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Military Post 8080,
11 Kragujevac; Military Post 4100, Novi Sad; and Military Post 9008,
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Yes, Mr. --
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could if we could turn our attention to 65
16 ter 838D.
17 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the second paragraph in this
18 document after you've had a chance to review the document.
19 A. I've seen it.
20 Q. Okay. With regard to what is stated in the second paragraph of
21 this document, is the issue of where and how requests were sent something
22 that was a topic of the conversation that you were made aware of?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And with regard to what's said here: "In future please send your
25 requests through the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska Army and the FRY
1 Federal Ministry of Defence."
2 Are you in a position to comment? If you are, that's fine; if
3 you're not, that's fine as well. Are you in a position to comment as to
4 why such an admonition would have been made to the Ministry of Interior
5 of the Republika Srpska?
6 A. As far as I can recall, that -- that was what was ordered. It
7 was ordered for these things to be done in that manner.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I seek the admission of this document.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you standing up, Mr. Thomas, or are you just
12 MR. THOMAS: I'm thinking, Your Honour, but I don't object to the
13 admission of the document.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. The document is admitted into
15 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D392, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: And, finally, if we could have 65 ter 647D pulled
20 Q. Now, could you tell us the date of this document, please.
21 A. 12 September 1990 -- I cannot make out the next digit. Still the
22 same; I can't really make it out, although you have zoomed in on it.
23 Q. Okay. If you could go down to the second full paragraph where --
24 which starts off with some numbers.
25 Could you read those numbers for us and see if that gives you any
1 assistance with regard to dates as they relate to this document. They're
2 the numbers 12.09.1993. And then there's some Cyrillic writing and then
3 it says 0E08,00?
4 A. Well, I can't find it in my version.
5 Q. Okay. If you would go to your binder and go to the section which
6 are Defence exhibits. Past the green -- past the green separator.
7 There's a green separator. No, keep on going. There's a green separator
8 in your binder. The other way. Yes. Keep on -- perfect. Looking for
9 the number 647.
10 Take a look at 647. Yes. And if you could --
11 A. Yes, I found it.
12 Q. Great. And if you could do us the kindness in the hard copy of
13 looking at the first full paragraph after it says:
14 "Note: From a meeting of the chief of the Yugoslav Army General
15 Staff with responsible chiefs of General Staff administration following
16 aggression by the Croatian army against the RSK/Republic of Serb
18 The next paragraph. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Do you see some numbers there?
21 A. The 12th of September, 1993.
22 Q. With regard to -- once again all I'm talking about is the date.
23 I hope that will be become of some assistance to you with regard to this
25 There was a meeting and looking at the list of attendees at this
1 meeting, if you would go down to the fourth name from the very bottom of
2 all the attendees. I'd ask if you take a look at that name and see if
3 you recognise that name as being yours?
4 A. Yes, that's my name and last name.
5 Q. And with regard to what occurred at that meeting, if you take a
6 look at the second full paragraph after the list of names, could you tell
7 us what that says.
8 A. "After brief consultations with the people responsible for NVO,
9 which means weapons and materiel in the infantry, mechanised units,
10 artillery, and other participants, he decided that requests by the
11 Main Staff of the RSK for NVO and medical supplies should be met or
12 approved only to the extent to which they do not deplete the current
13 reserves of the Army of Yugoslavia."
14 Q. With regard to the last part of what you have told us: Only to
15 the extent to which they do not deplete the current reserves of the Army
16 of Yugoslavia, could you tell us why that was of importance?
17 A. The chief of the General Staff ordered that the needs of the
18 Yugoslav Army should be regulated in this manner. So whatever does not
19 affect that -- is not detrimental to the combat readiness of the Yugoslav
21 Q. And with regard to the issues --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I'm going to have to interrupt here
23 because it is related to this very point.
24 Now, the English translation of this document does not use the
25 word "deplete," and I do know that the interpretation said "deplete." It
1 says "endanger," and there is an substantive difference between the use
2 of those two. Deplete means then you're left with nothing. Endanger
3 means you are getting me to a stage where my combat readiness is now
4 being threatened.
5 So given those stages, you would stop supply earlier or sooner,
6 if as soon as my supplies are endangered I would stop giving you a
7 supply; but deplete means I'll give you everything that I have.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will only read the next
9 paragraph in that order.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters do not
11 see the bottom of the English translation.
12 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters do not see the bottom of the
14 English translation. Could we please lift it up. Thank you so much.
15 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness please read a bit more
16 slowly, thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please don't bring it down again. Now you're
18 bringing down the bottom part of the English page.
19 You may read now, Mr. Kodzopeljic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it says the chief of
21 the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army has prohibited the deliveries of
22 weapons and materiel to the Army of Republika Srpska and the Serbian
23 Krajina which would endanger the norms that should be within the troop
24 reserves of units and the critical assets at the level of the army.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: That paragraph is on the
1 next page in the English version.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go to the next page in the English
4 version so that Judge Moloto is able to see that information.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith, we are long ready. Thank
6 you so much.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh. Just wanted to make sure that you had an
8 opportunity to see the information.
9 I would move for the admission of this document.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D393, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I use the word "finally," I intend to
15 maintain that position, but if I could have but a brief moment for
16 conversation with my colleagues just to make sure that the "finally" is
17 finally. I would appreciate it.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 [Defence counsel confer]
20 MR. GUY-SMITH:
21 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kodzopeljic, for your time and your
22 patience. My colleague on the other side of the room, I believe, may
23 have a question or three to ask you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
25 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. If I could just have a
1 moment to organise myself with the lectern, sir.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, you may have the moment.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Thomas:
4 Q. Mr. Kodzopeljic, good afternoon. My name is Barney Thomas. I'm
5 a lawyer with the Prosecution. I have the opportunity now, sir, to ask
6 you some questions about the testimony you have given over the last few
7 days. I ask you, please, to listen carefully to the questions that I
8 ask. Answer only the question that have I asked, and if you need any
9 further clarification from me regarding any of my questions, please let
10 me know.
11 Is that clear, sir?
12 A. Clear.
13 Q. I want to go back just to the first page of the document that we
14 see on the screen, please.
15 Now we see that that is dated September 1993. And we see from
16 the list of names that you, at that time, occupied the position of the
17 deputy chief of the technical administration; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, that document can come off the screen
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. THOMAS:
24 Q. The technical administration is part of the logistics sector of
25 the General Staff of the VJ; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You went from the deputy chief of the technical administration to
3 the chief of the technical administration.
4 A. Well, that's not quite accurate.
5 Q. Did you stay as -- did you stay in the technical administration
6 throughout the period of the war in Bosnia, in 1993 to 1995?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. At any point during that period did you become the head of the
9 technical administration?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The technical administration was, as I've already said, part of
12 the logistics sector of the General Staff of the VJ.
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. As chief of that administration, you would have been subordinated
15 to General Milovanovic who was the head of the logistics sector; is that
17 A. No. He was the assistant chief of the General Staff for
18 logistics, and I was his subordinate.
19 Q. Okay. His immediate superior was General Perisic.
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. So you spent the entire period of 1993 to 1995 in the
22 General Staff of the VJ.
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. You remained in the General Staff of the VJ until 1999.
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what is the 30th Personnel Centre?
2 A. Well, I don't know that for certain. I can't really be precise.
3 Because, for me, of the chief of the technical administration, I had no
4 ties to that administration. I had no orders or did I have -- nor did I
5 have any need to have any kind of cooperation with them.
6 Q. Well, sir, tell us what you know.
7 A. As far as I can remember, this was an institution that was
8 established in Belgrade in order to enhance the cooperation between the
9 Yugoslav Army and the Army of Republika Srpska.
10 Q. And how did it do that, sir?
11 A. I don't know that.
12 Q. No idea?
13 A. No. That was irrelevant for my work, for my job.
14 Q. You were six years in the General Staff and you don't know.
15 A. I can just repeat that I had no common tasks with them that we
16 should resolve together.
17 Q. Sir, we have looked at a number of material lists over the last
18 three day, haven't we?
19 A number of those refer to purported deliveries to the 30th
20 Personnel Centre. As someone involved in logistics for six years as part
21 of the General Staff of the VJ, can you please explain to us, in the
22 context of deliveries of weapons and ammunition to the 30th Personnel
23 Centre, what that means?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please kindly speak into his
25 microphone. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know in what sense you mean
2 that, in what sense you want me to be more precise in my answer.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just in case you haven't do so yet, there is a
4 request from the interpreters that you try to speak closely to your
5 microphone. I guess they find it a little hard to hear you,
6 Mr. Kodzopeljic.
7 MR. THOMAS:
8 Q. On delivery slips that we have seen, sir, the 30th Personnel
9 Centre is named as the recipient, or intended recipient, of weapons and
10 ammunition. Why, sir?
11 A. I don't know the reason.
12 Q. Can you tell us why the chief of the technical administration of
13 the logistics sector of the VJ General Staff doesn't know the answer to
14 that question?
15 A. As I have said, we took care of the quantities that we had in our
16 warehouses, and we issued them as we received orders from our superiors
17 so that we did not keep track. No documents were sent through the
18 technical department. They were sent from the logistics basis, the 8th
19 logistics basis.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure that the number is
22 MR. THOMAS:
23 Q. I'm not sure I follow you, sir. Can you please explain why you,
24 holding the position that you did, cannot give us the answer to that
1 A. I repeat, any order that was sent relating to supplies that was
2 sent from the chief of the General Staff would go to either the 6th
3 logistics base or through the army command. It will not go through the
4 technical administration.
5 Q. That doesn't explain, sir, why you, holding the position that you
6 did in the General Staff from 1993 to 1999 does not know what that
7 reference to the 30th Personnel Centre means. What does it mean?
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this point I must rise, since the question has
9 now been asked on a number of occasions. He has received an answer on a
10 number of occasions. It may not be the answer that he wishes, but,
11 nonetheless the question has been asked and answered now.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
13 MR. THOMAS:
14 Q. Knowing, sir --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, Mr. Thomas, there is an objection.
16 MR. THOMAS: Oh, I'm sorry. I withdraw the question. Sorry,
17 Your Honours.
18 Q. Now, knowing, sir, what you know today, do you still not know the
19 answer to that question?
20 A. I can say with full responsibility that only yesterday I read in
21 a book some details about that centre.
22 Q. You discovered yesterday for the first time, sir?
23 A. Well, I don't know how you understood what I said. I told you
24 that I read some details yesterday, and I've already said that I knew
25 certain things which were of general nature that I was aware of.
1 MR. THOMAS: Could we please have Exhibit P1009 on the screen.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised that e-court is not responding. But I
4 guess that's -- they're still trying to do their best.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Looks like it's going to need a technician,
7 Mr. Thomas, to be called in.
8 If you are able to go to something else that doesn't need a
9 document on the screen while we're waiting for the technician, it might
10 be of help. If it's possible.
11 MR. THOMAS: Let me just check for a moment, sir.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see something on the screen now.
13 MR. THOMAS: Ah, thank you, Your Honour. And I want page 3 in
14 the B/C/S, please, Your Honours.
15 Q. Please take a moment to read that document, sir.
16 A. I can see it.
17 Q. What position did you hold in 1994?
18 A. I was the chief of the technical administration.
19 Q. What does that document mean, sir?
20 A. This is an order by the president of the FRY on supplying the
21 30th and 40th Personnel Centre with weapons and military equipment.
22 Q. And when the president of the federal republic orders the supply
23 of the 30th and 40th Personnel Centre with weapons and military
24 equipment, presumably the logistics sector of the VJ General Staff would
25 have been aware of that?
1 A. Yes. You said that correctly. It was the logistics, or the rear
3 Q. So can you please tell me what supplying the 30th and 40th
4 Personnel Centres with weapons and military equipment means?
5 A. I don't know that. I see this order for the first time. It is
6 strictly confidential, and they are recorded separately.
7 Q. It suggests, does it not -- well, it expressly states, does it
8 not, that the chief of the General Staff is responsible for putting this
9 into effect?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, that is pushing it a bit. It says that
11 he's authorised. It doesn't say responsible. One being authorised one
12 being responsible are distinct. At least in English.
13 MR. THOMAS: Well, let's take -- I can rephrase the question,
14 Your Honours.
15 Q. We can see that, as at 1994, there was an order from the
16 president of the federal republic to supply arms to the 30th and 40th
17 Personnel Centres; correct?
18 A. And military equipment too.
19 Q. The chief of the General Staff was authorised to reconcile the
20 requests of the 30th and 40th Personnel Centre with the means of the army
21 to deliver on those requests, wasn't he, by that order?
22 A. One could put it that way, yes.
23 Q. The logistics sector is immediately subordinated to the chief of
24 the General Staff of the VJ.
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. You were the technical -- you were the chief of the technical
2 administration at the time.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. How do you not know what this document means?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Has he said so? Did he say he doesn't know what
6 it means.
7 MR. THOMAS: He says he hasn't seen it, sir.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, those are two different things.
9 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. One is he hasn't seen it, but now that
10 he's seeing it.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But then you're saying how do you say -- how
12 can you say -- how do you not know what this document means? What I'm
13 asking you is, has he said he doesn't know what it means.
14 MR. THOMAS: He says he hasn't seen it.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. That's a different story.
16 MR. THOMAS: Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But does that mean he doesn't know what means?
18 MR. THOMAS: Well, that's what I'm asking him, sir. Reading it
19 now for the first time --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but the question is -- there is no connection
21 between the two questions.
22 MR. THOMAS: I understand that, sir. I will rephrase it.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please.
24 MR. THOMAS:
25 Q. What was the logistics sector responsible for?
1 A. In what sense do you mean?
2 Q. In a general sense.
3 A. The rear, or logistics sector, was in charge of providing
4 technical support, medical support, quartermaster supplies, veterinary
5 support, and construction support.
6 Q. And support to whom?
7 A. The whole army.
8 Q. And we see from this document that includes the 30th and 40th
9 Personnel Centres.
10 A. I don't know what you mean.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. We can take that off the
14 Can we have document P575 on the screen, please.
15 Q. Now you may recall, sir, that when you looked at this document
16 yesterday you were asked about whether the handwriting at the very top
17 next to the number 044, either 6 or 8 or 0, at 0641, was the word
18 "Tisca," and you told us that you couldn't see any writing there.
19 MR. THOMAS: And, Your Honours, I have the original of that
20 document, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I'm -- I assume that Mr. Thomas intends on
23 showing the witness the document, and I certainly have no trouble in that
24 regard. I should also inform the Court that I have seen the document.
25 Mr. Thomas was kind enough to show me the document prior to the
1 proceedings today and, having seen the original of the document, as he
2 confirmed previously with regard to documents in which insertions were
3 made in the English that did not exist, I can tell that you I have seen
4 the original and the word handwritten "Tisca" does appear to the
5 satisfaction of the Defence.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
7 MR. THOMAS: I'm grateful for that indication, Your Honours. I
8 need not deal with that document.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But before do you that, just so that the Chamber
10 is with the both of you.
11 MR. THOMAS: Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are we talking about? Unfortunately, I've
13 been trying to get this exhibit on my -- the screen that can I control,
14 so I can enlarge it enough for me to see. This size can't I read. Where
15 is this Tisca now again?
16 MR. THOMAS: If Your Honour looks at the right-hand side, right
17 at the very top right-hand corner of the English translation.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Top. All right.
19 MR. THOMAS: There is handwritten entered "Tisca."
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the B/C/S which -- yeah. Handwritten, yeah.
21 MR. THOMAS: And there was dispute yesterday as to whether or not
22 it appeared on the B/C/S.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: What I understand is that Mr. Thomas went back
25 and obtained the original from the archives. It was a matter that I
1 think you at some discussed with regard -- no, I don't know if it was
2 specifically for this document or other documents. I had an opportunity
3 to look at the document --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- with Mr. Thomas, and as I said, the Defence
6 agrees that that handwritten word is there.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
8 Yes, Mr. Thomas, you may proceed.
9 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours. There is one other, sir,
10 that I'd like to just clarify. If we can have P581 on the screen.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith is on his feet again.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to this document, if I'm not
13 mistaken, there had been an examination as to whether or not there was or
14 was not a signature in box number 36. I've had an opportunity once again
15 to review the original, it was taken from the archives, and having
16 examined the original as taken from the archives, I would concur with
17 what I believe is my colleague's position, that there is in fact a
18 signature that can be seen on the original document which is not to be
19 found on the copy that we have been reviewing.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas --
21 MR. THOMAS: Again, it's --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- may I suggest that if there are any other
23 documents that the two of you have discussed and over which you have come
24 to an agreement, can we just list them for the record and skip them if
25 you are agreed and forget asking the witness about it so that we can move
1 on to some other issues that are contentious.
2 MR. THOMAS: There are none, sir. There are just those two.
3 Can we have document P573 on the screen, please.
4 Q. Sir, while this document is coming up on the screen, you were
5 taken to a number of material lists over the last few days where you were
6 asked to comment on the absence of materiel -- no, the absence of
7 appropriate entries being made in the document and in particularly in
8 relation to box 4, where the name and address of sender would not be
10 You see that this is one of those documents. The question I have
11 for you though, sir, is that there are, despite the absence of any
12 entries in box number 4, there are other indicators on that document of
13 who the sender of materiel was, isn't there?
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would have to for the first time make an
15 objection that I don't think I've made here, which is argumentative by
16 virtue of the use of the term "despite."
17 That that would qualify the question asked as being
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
20 MR. THOMAS: I'm not going to waste time, Your Honour. I can
21 rephrase the question.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
23 MR. THOMAS:
24 Q. One way to tell who sent materiel was to look at box 4, isn't it?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Another way to determine who sent materiel is to look at other
2 boxes in the document, isn't it?
3 A. No. Without that particular box, you cannot see who sent it. It
4 identifies the sender.
5 Q. Look at box number 3 -- sorry. Look at box number 2, sir.
6 A. Please zoom in.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ...zoom in the
8 English, please.
9 MR. THOMAS:
10 Q. Do you see an entry for the military post of the sender?
11 A. No. It says military post, MFO, or financial organ, of the
12 fourth level or degree, which needn't necessarily be the sender.
13 Q. You see the place of the sender in box number 11?
14 A. I see it.
15 Q. We see also the box above that which shows the military
16 bookkeeping centre of this particular sender, don't we?
17 A. Nis, yes.
18 Q. Just for our own assistance, sir, where are Paracin and Nis?
19 A. Paracin is to the north of Nis. Nis is to the south of Paracin.
20 We can say that Nis is in the south of Serbia and Paracin in central
22 Q. Okay. Sir, that's my question. Thank you. If we scroll to the
23 right-hand side of the document, a name has just caught my eye.
24 We see there the recipient being the Drina Corps Command and the
25 destination station of the receiver being Tisca; is that right?
1 A. Destination station Tisca, correct.
2 Q. Can we go down to the bottom right-hand corner of the document,
3 sir. We have seen many of these, namely a signature and a stamp of the
4 receiver, and, presumably, the regulations require these to be placed on
5 the document once delivery has been received.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, we can take that document off the
10 And can we please have document -- Exhibit P576 on the screen.
11 Q. Now, sir, you were also asked about a number of entries where the
12 sender was shown as being the General Staff of the VJ, and a number of
13 those entries had a name in brackets afterwards. For example, this
14 document, "Bog. Banja." You see that?
15 A. Yes, I see it.
16 Q. And if we look at the first line of what is supplied, it appears
17 to be something in relation to a shape -- something in relation to a
18 self-propelled M-18 gun; is that right?
19 A. No. It says round, 76 millimetres.
20 Q. For what, sir?
21 A. For a self-propelled piece called M-18.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, is there a military post called
23 Bogutovacka Banja?
24 A. No, there isn't.
25 Q. There is no VJ Military Post in Bogutovacka Banja?
1 A. I don't know that.
2 Q. Where is Bogutovacka Banja?
3 A. In central Serbia.
4 MR. THOMAS: Can we go to document P1269, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just before we do that. Can we get some
7 clarification with regard to the English translation of "self-propelled
9 THE INTERPRETER: Would Mr. Guy-Smith please move a little closer
10 to his microphone.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I do apologise. Could we get some --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] Put it a little closer, put
13 it a little closer. That's better.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we get some clarification with regard to
15 the translation here of "self-propelled gun." It now says
16 "self-propelled piece," and I don't know which particular translation
17 we're dealing with. A gun is certainly distinct for a piece and to the
18 extent that these documents have exhibited difficulties with the
19 information contained therein and to the extent that the Chamber is going
20 to be relying on these documents for whatever purpose, ultimately.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where does it say piece?
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: The witness said piece. The document in English
23 says gun. It says "/self-propelled gun/," and there seems to be a
24 distinction here.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shouldn't then we -- I guess we rather know what a
1 self-propelled gun is. Shouldn't we get a translation of what the
2 witness meant by piece?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be fine, Your Honour. It's just
4 before we leave the document, I think we have some clarification.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And can the witness also confirm that he said
6 "piece" and not "gun."
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: He said self-propelled piece on line 7 -- at page
8 71, line 25.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you. What do you mean by
10 self-propelled piece, Mr. Kodzopeljic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A self-propelled piece. M-18 is an
12 asset with a mounted gun. It's a 30-ton piece.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I also heard you say what is ordered here are
14 rounds, not -- what -- I mustn't put words into your mouth.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't make this out precisely but
16 it says "Metak," I think. Metak, 76 millimetres, meaning round.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. THOMAS: Can we have P1269 on the screen, please.
19 Q. You will see, sir, that this is a document dated 19
20 November 1993.
21 MR. THOMAS: Can we please go to the second page in the English.
22 Q. You can see from the document, sir, that it is issued by one
23 Lieutenant-Colonel Jevrem Cokic. Do you know what position he held at
24 that time, sir?
25 A. No. It's Lieutenant-General Jevrem Cokic, 1st Army Commander.
1 Q. He is commander of the 1st Army?
2 A. At the time, yes.
3 Q. Of the VJ?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. THOMAS: Can we go back to the first page in the English,
6 Your Honours.
7 Q. If you look, please, General -- sorry, Mr. Kodzopeljic, at the
8 first paragraph of the document, I want to ask you, first of all, the
9 same question that His Honour Judge Moloto asked you. There's a
10 reference to an order issued by the chief of the General Staff of the VJ,
11 and what we have in the English translation is: "Please issue from the
12 below-stated VPs, military posts, the following types and quantities of
13 ammunition for the needs of the General Staff of the Main Staff of the
14 Army of Republika Srpska."
15 And my question, sir, is: Is it correct that the term there is
16 "please issue," or is it the imperative version, as you stated before?
17 A. It's in the imperative.
18 Q. Could we please scroll down to point number 4 in the English.
19 Now, that is an instruction to a Military Post number 5292-1 in
20 Bogutovacka Banja to issue rounds for a self-propelled -- 76-millimetre
21 rounds for a self-propelled M-18 weapon, isn't it?
22 A. Yes, for that self-propelled weapon or piece, yes.
23 MR. THOMAS: Could we please look at document P575.
24 Q. Now we have the sender's details in box number 4 being, again,
25 defective in your view. We have military post -- I'm sorry, we have an
1 entry 5, question mark 92, Mrsac Kraljevo. Was there a VJ Military Post
2 number 5292 in Mrsac?
3 A. I am not certain. Although I suppose as much.
4 Q. Well, if there -- okay. We will see there that the second entry
5 of materiel includes 2.000 rifle grenades. Do you see that?
6 A. I see that written by hand in my version of the document.
7 Q. Thank you. And there is --
8 MR. THOMAS: Can we go back to P1269, please, Your Honours.
9 Q. Now, while the English is being blown up, look at point number 3,
11 A. I see it.
12 Q. You see a reference there to Military Post 5292, Mrsac. You see
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. To supply 2.000 -- amongst other things 2.000 pieces -- 2.000
16 rifle grenades. Do you see that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And this was the same document we were looking at a moment ago
19 which is the order of the 1st Army commander based on the decision of
20 General Perisic. And we will see that the date of that order --
21 MR. THOMAS: If we scroll to the top of the English, please.
22 Q. -- is 19 November 1993. Do you agree?
23 A. It says contact-fuse rifle grenade. Not just rifle grenade.
24 Q. Okay. Do you agree, sir, that the date of the order is 19
25 November 1993.
1 A. On my document, it also says the 19th of November of 1993.
2 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, I have one remaining delivery slip
3 relevant to this document. I can deal with it very quickly and that will
4 be the end of the delivery slips, if you will grant me the indulgence to
5 just continue for a few moments.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your opposite number is on his feet.
7 Mr. Guy-Smith.
8 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm just unclear about one thing because you say
10 Mr. Thomas is referring to "an order" and he also used the term
11 "decision," and in the English of P1269 the first paragraph discusses an
12 order ST conference number 6748-2 of 12.11.1993 by commander of the
13 GS VJ, General Staff of Yugoslavia, and another one, which is 6748-1 of
14 12.11.1993. And I'm unclear as to whether or not he is referring to that
15 as being the order or the document itself that he is discussing with
16 Mr. Kodzopeljic being the order.
17 If we could just have some clarification, I would appreciate it.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
19 MR. THOMAS: I was referring to the order of the 1st Army
20 commander, sir.
21 So if we could go -- if I can be permitted to continue for just a
22 few moments, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
24 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
25 The last document, please, P578.
1 Q. If you look in box number 4, sir, we have a reference to the
2 sender being the Yugoslav Army General Staff Bogovada. Where is
3 Bogovada, sir?
4 A. In my document it says VJ Bogovadza, and as I told you already it
5 is in central Serbia. It's a warehouse. I can tell that you in that
6 particular warehouse there was materiel stored originating or being
7 assigned to a number of different military posts.
8 Q. So do you now suggest, sir, that the reference in box number 4 is
9 likely to that warehouse?
10 A. That is my presumption.
11 Q. And maybe to add force to your presumption, if we look at the
12 materiel supplied we have 7.9-millimetre rounds, 800.000 -- 800.100. Do
13 you see that?
14 A. Yes. 800.100 pieces. However, this is only my presumption. It
15 was entered by the handler or actually the person receiving it. It is
16 the same handwriting. He presumed it had arrived from that particular
17 warehouse in Serbia. He was probably told or learned by other means that
18 this was so. However, I can't tell you with any precision that it was
19 indeed sent by the military post in Bogovadza. I would need additional
20 documents to corroborate, if this is actually true.
21 MR. THOMAS: If we go to P1269 for the last time.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you said this was the last document.
23 MR. THOMAS: This was the last document to enable me to finish
24 1269, sir.
25 Q. This is the same 1st Army document we were -- 1st Army order we
1 were looking at before, sir, and you will see entry number 1,
2 Military Post VP 8236, Bogovadza, 800.000 rounds of 7.9 ammunition. You
3 see that, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. One last question before we finish. Can you tell the name of the
6 book, sir, that you were reading that was telling you all about the 30th
7 Personnel Centre?
8 A. It was written by Colonel Vuksic. I don't know the title.
9 Q. All right. Thank you.
10 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Kodzopeljic, just to remind you once again that you are not
13 supposed to discuss the case until you are excused from testifying. We
14 stand adjourned to tomorrow, 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom II.
15 Court adjourned.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.08 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of July,
18 2010, at 9.00 a.m.