Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12606

 1                           Tuesday, 13 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

11     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             Could we have the appearances for the day, please, Mr. Harmon.

14             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone

15     in and around the courtroom.  Mark Harmon and Carmela Javier for the

16     Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.

18             And for the Defence.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

20     morning to all the participants in the proceedings.  Novak Lukic and

21     Tina Drolec today represent Mr. Perisic.  Alex Fielding, our assistant,

22     is with us.  And Oonagh O'Connor, for the very first time, is our intern.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

24             Good morning Mr. Kovacevic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 12607

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to remind you that you are still bound by the

 2     declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

 3     truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 6                           WITNESS:  DUSAN KOVACEVIC [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:  [Continued]

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kovacevic.  I would like us to discuss repair

10     centres specifically.  First of all, tell us, were you aware of what the

11     system of these repair institutes was in the JNA, in the Republic of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina where they were located, and what did you know of them

13     in general terms?

14        A.   Yes, I was aware of the system of the technical repairs

15     institutes of the former Yugoslav People's Army.  They remained where

16     they were previously in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  When the

17     Army of Republika Srpska was established, these repairs institutes came

18     under the direct command and competence of the Main Staff of the Army of

19     Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   You've already said as much yesterday.  Did some of the repairs

21     institutes that were previously located in the Republic of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina, as part of the then-JNA, remain in the hands of the

23     opposite sides, that's to say, outside of the remit of Republika Srpska

24     and the VRS?

25        A.   Yes, there was the repairs institute for communications devices

Page 12608

 1     in Travnik.  It was taken by the Muslim Croat army and was under their

 2     control.

 3        Q.   The repairs institutes which came under the chain of command of

 4     the VRS and were under the control of the Bosnian Serbs are the ones that

 5     I'm interested in, but can you tell us yourself which are the most

 6     important of these repairs institutes and what were their core activities

 7     in Republika Srpska?

 8        A.   The most important repairs institute was in Hadzici.  This was

 9     due to its role of repairing combat vehicles as well as infantry and

10     artillery weapons.  It also modified these weapons.  Another important

11     repairs institute was Kosmos in Banja Luka.  This was the only such

12     institute which in the era of the former JNA repaired the assets for

13     anti-aircraft combat.

14        Q.   Let us be quite precise on this issue.  When you say that it was

15     the only such institute, what was the relationship between this institute

16     and subsequently the Army of Yugoslavia, if any?

17        A.   There was another institute in Rajlovac which was equally

18     important and which repaired plane engines for fighter planes that were

19     part of the people's -- Yugoslav People's Army.  It also catered for

20     spare parts.  It was the only repairs centre that had such a role in the

21     whole of the Balkans, and it had some cutting-edge technology that could

22     compete with that worldwide.  Can you repeat, please, what your question

23     was?

24        Q.   My question was, if after the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was

25     set up and the Army of Yugoslavia was set up there existed a relationship

Page 12609

 1     between that country and Kosmos, since you said that it was the only such

 2     institute, you also mentioned this other institute for plane bombs called

 3     Orao or Eagle, so what was their relationship with Yugoslavia, if any?

 4        A.   The Kosmos repair centre in Banja Luka and the Orao or Eagle

 5     repair centre in Rajlovac, which was subsequently relocated, engaged in

 6     repairs of weapons and plane engines for the purposes of the Army of

 7     Yugoslavia.  These were commercial jobs, commissioned, and they were the

 8     result of the business transactions between the federal Government of

 9     Yugoslavia and the Government of Republika Srpska.  And there was direct

10     co-operation between the Army of Yugoslavia, that's to say, between their

11     repair centres, and the Army of Republika Srpska on the other hand,

12     that's to say, the repair centres under their control.

13        Q.   Before the outbreak of conflicts in the former Yugoslavia, do you

14     know if these repairs institutes and the JNA did any sort of work for

15     third countries; and, if so, what specifically?

16        A.   I know that the Orao repairs institute back in 1990 had

17     commissions for some 300 plane engines.  They had been commissioned by

18     Iraq and their army.  These engines came to the Ora repairs centre in

19     Rajlovac where they were repaired, and Iraq paid all its dues on this

20     score with the directorate for weapons which was the so-called SDPR

21     directorate in Belgrade.  However, roughly 50 per cent of these engines

22     were never sent back and stayed in the air repairs centre in Rajlovac,

23     and this was due to international sanctions that had been imposed.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You first mentioned the technical repairs institute

25     in Hadzici.  We heard evidence in this case that this institute had not

Page 12610

 1     been operational before the war.  Can you tell us, to your knowledge

 2     throughout the conflict, was this repairs technical centre in Hadzici

 3     operational?

 4        A.   I am fully familiar with the work of this institute.  As of the

 5     3rd or the 4th of May, 1992, through to the establishment of the

 6     Army of Republika Srpska, the Hadzici repairs institute was in the hands

 7     of the local authorities of the municipality of Hadzici.  And the Serbs

 8     were in power then.  So, in other words, it was in the hands of the

 9     Serbs.

10             It was also under the control of the Territorial Defence of the

11     municipality of Hadzici, in other words, the Serb Territorial Defence

12     structure in Hadzici.  Then when the VRS came into being, this particular

13     repairs institute was subordinated to or turned over to the Main Staff of

14     the VRS and was immediately subordinated to the Main Staff of the VRS.

15             The institute was operational throughout the war until the

16     signing of the Dayton Accords at its location in Hadzici.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like us to look at a document

19     now from the 65 ter Defence list which is 00843D.  That's its 65 ter

20     number.  Can it be enlarged, primarily the B/C/S, and I'm interested in

21     the left-hand side.

22        Q.   The document is titled "List of Territorial Maintenance

23     Resources."  And in the upper left-hand corner, it was signed by --

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And can it be, please, scrolled up so

25     we can see the top left part of it, please.

Page 12611

 1        Q.   Do you recognise the stamp and signature?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.  The signature is that of General Ratko Mladic.

 3        Q.   We have a list here of 32 legal personalities - I don't know how

 4     to call them - and it says "list of territorial maintenance resources,"

 5     but the list does not include the repairs institutes you've just

 6     mentioned.  Can you tell us what these entities are, companies or what

 7     they are, and what their role was in the -- in Republika Srpska in the

 8     area of repairs?

 9        A.   These were state-owned companies.  Their core activities included

10     the repairs of non-combat vehicles and non-combat assets such as

11     communications devices and engineering devices as well as some other

12     assets from the construction industry.

13        Q.   Under 8 we have Cajevic Holding, which is probably on the next

14     page in English.  Can you tell us what the activity of this company was

15     and how it fit into the repairs institute system?

16        A.   The Rude Cajevic company from Banja Luka included several

17     daughter companies and most of the plants manufactured communications

18     devices.  The former JNA used to purchase from this company a variety of

19     communication devices that they used for the purposes of the JNA.  The

20     same holding manufactured certain parts for the automobile industry

21     Crvena Zastava in Kragujevac.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we receive an exhibit number for

24     this document, Your Honour.

25             MR. HARMON:  No objection, Your Honour.

Page 12612

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  The document is admitted into

 2     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 4     Exhibit D402.  Thank you.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up document --

 6     another 65 ter Defence list document, 00759D.

 7        Q.   It's a rather poor reproduction in terms of the fact that we

 8     can't see which republic is here -- is mentioned herein, but we can see

 9     that it was signed by Zarko Ljubojevic.  So can you tell us, perhaps,

10     which army this involved?

11        A.   This is Colonel Zarko Ljubojevic who was in the technical

12     department of the logistics sector of the Main Staff of the VRS.

13        Q.   The date on this document is August 1995, by which time you were

14     no longer minister.  Nevertheless, do you perhaps understand why they are

15     addressing the Defence ministry here to obtain their approval in order to

16     send these men to perform some steps in the Drina Corps?

17             I do not wish to be leading you, but this abbreviation here, DK,

18     that's the Drina Corps, isn't it, because I see that's what the English

19     reflects as well; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know anything about why it took addressing the defence

22     ministry for this?

23        A.   Yes, as a matter of fact I do, and I can explain.

24        Q.   Please do so.

25        A.   When I had been replaced as defence minister and a new minister

Page 12613

 1     was appointed, Ninkovic, there were some open clashes between the defence

 2     ministry, the minister himself, and the Main Staff of the VRS,

 3     personified by General Ratko Mladic.  Defence Minister Ninkovic

 4     unlawfully and wantonly issued an order removing all of the overhaul

 5     centres from the jurisdiction of the Main Staff of the VRS,

 6     resubordinating them instead to the defence ministry directly.  For that

 7     reason, the request we are looking at was addressed to the defence

 8     ministry.  Why?  So that the defence minister himself could issue an

 9     authorisation for teams from these overhaul centres, as was their

10     equipment, to be dispatched to the specified units of the VRS.

11        Q.   I have a discrepancy here in the translation between the B/C/S

12     and the English.  The B/C/S original says that the group should be

13     dispatched there because of "defektaze," whereas the English reads

14     dive nose [as interpreted].

15             Witness, could you please explain what this word means,

16     "defektaze"?  I've never come across the word before?

17        A.   These are simply defects affecting equipment and weapons.  For

18     example, the 90 millimetre self-propelled gun, the 130 millimetre gun,

19     the 122 millimetre Howitzer, and so on and so forth.  Guns, multiple

20     rocket-launchers, you can see the list for yourself.  They provide here a

21     list of weapons and combat sets that were not being used because they

22     were out of good working order.

23             The teams being dispatched were supposed to perform something

24     called "defektaze," which means disassembling these weapons and equipment

25     in order to diagnose any defects.  Batteries and spare parts would then

Page 12614

 1     be replaced to make sure that the weapons and equipment were now again in

 2     good working order.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we please receive a number for

 5     this document.

 6             MR. HARMON:  No objection, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             The document is admitted into evidence.  May it please be given

 9     an exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

11     Exhibit D403.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   In very general terms, General, let us try and say a thing or two

15     about the so-called special-purpose production industry, to be quite

16     specific.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have another document

18     from the Defence list, the 65 ter list, 01039D.

19        Q.   As we're waiting for the document to come up, General, you

20     mentioned yesterday that a special-purpose industry was spread throughout

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that was, as a matter of fact, the case in the

22     former Yugoslavia.  I asked you something about the overhaul and

23     maintenance centres.  What about some of those production lines or the

24     special-purpose production lines, did any of that end up in the hands of

25     the second side and the third side, by which I mean not in the hands of

Page 12615

 1     the VRS?

 2        A.   Yes, many of those special-purpose factories and production lines

 3     remained in their hands, including the artillery weapon factory of

 4     Bratstvo in Novi Travnik.

 5        Q.   You said that yesterday.  Any other ones?

 6        A.   The Konjic ammunition factory which for the most part was a

 7     facility that was underground in the immediate vicinity of another

 8     underground facility that was meant in a state of emergency to house the

 9     Supreme Command of the armed forces of the SFRY.

10        Q.   What type of ammunition was being produced in this facility?

11        A.   For the most part, the 2.7 millimetre machine-gun ammunition.

12     But any kind of small arms ammunition could be produced there.

13        Q.   Could you just wait a minute, please.

14             Whose hands did this facility end up in?  Who now controlled it?

15        A.   It was both the Croats and the Muslims who controlled the town

16     itself and the general Konjic area.  There was another factory production

17     facility at Bugojna producing hand-grenades, all types of mines and

18     explosives.  That factory as well was taken earlier on by the

19     Croat-Muslim coalition and their army.

20        Q.   Thank you very much.  Can you please have a look at the document

21     in front of you.  This is a decision that have published in the

22     Official Gazette of the VRS in June 1992.  It specifies companies that

23     will be producing weapons and military equipment, companies of special

24     significance for the defence effort.  There is a reference here, also, to

25     the overhaul centres that you mentioned a while ago, and they appear to

Page 12616

 1     belong to the same group of companies based on this decision.

 2             Could you please tell us what were these companies that were

 3     producing weapons and equipment that, during the war, were in the hands

 4     of the authorities of the Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   All of the companies stated in this decision.  Pretis, Vogosca;

 6     Cajevac Holding, Banja Luka; Pobjeda, Gorazde; Hrasnica special vehicle

 7     production line.

 8        Q.   No need for you to go through the list.

 9        A.   Yes, but all of these companies were.

10        Q.   Did these companies continue to operate throughout the war?

11        A.   Yes, for the most part.  I'm sure, however, that Pobjeda Gorazde

12     was not operational during the war because of combat.

13        Q.   Can you please shed more light on Articles 2 and 3 of this

14     decision, if you can, sir.  It's about the company manager being

15     appointed.  Can you tell us if that's really how it worked; were these

16     managers appointed or replaced by the government?

17        A.   Yes, that's right.  That's how it worked.

18        Q.   What about Article 3, talks about monitoring and supervision over

19     these production lines, the ministry of the economy and the ministry of

20     agriculture, is that how it worked in practical terms?

21        A.   Yes, for the most part, it worked like that.

22        Q.   You did provide an example yesterday when you were talking about

23     Pretis and the decision taken by General Mladic for him -- or, rather,

24     the VRS, to call the shots on what happened with Pretis.  Was that

25     something that was done in concert with the ministry of the economy and

Page 12617

 1     agriculture or not?

 2        A.   This was an example of wanton and arbitrary action being taken by

 3     individuals, even if they were members of the army, and that was

 4     certainly not in keeping with this decision.  This actually happened

 5     quite often, despite which it was impossible to prevent it.  All those

 6     who made incursions of this kind would normally hold people at gun point

 7     while making their threats.  My jurisdiction over the army or the --

 8     specifically the Main Staff was not something that was formulated by any

 9     regulation or law.  I had no power to issue any orders to the Main Staff

10     of the VRS, nor indeed did I have any powers to stop occurrences such as

11     these.

12        Q.   You are referring to the period that you spent as a defence

13     minister; right?

14        A.   Yes, that's precisely what I'm referring to.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I move that this be

16     exhibited, please.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

18     please be given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

20     Exhibit D404.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I'd like to move on to a different topic now, the structure of

24     the VRS itself.  Who were the officers and NCOs of the VRS?

25        A.   The VRS got its officers and NCOs from a number of different

Page 12618

 1     sources.  The first of these being members of the former JNA who hailed

 2     from Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as those who remained in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina of their own free will.  Their status-related issues

 4     were settled in Yugoslavia -- or, rather, through the VJ, although they

 5     remained members of the VRS.

 6        Q.   I'm sorry for interrupting, sir, but I'd just like to go back to

 7     my original question to make sure we are being as specific as possible.

 8             You mean officers and NCOs of the former JNA?

 9        A.   Yes, that group alone and no one else.

10        Q.   All right.  Go on, please.

11        A.   The second source was the -- those being educated at the military

12     school centre in Belgrade.  Normally on an annual basis there would be

13     about 50 graduates who, upon completing the academy, would join the VRS.

14        Q.   How was their status regulated?  Was their status like the status

15     enjoyed by former JNA members or not?

16        A.   I think they had the same status as former JNA members.  The next

17     source, reserve officers and NCOs who were reserve officers and NCOs of

18     the former JNA, remaining in the former JNA as officers and NCOs.  And

19     later moving on to the VRS.

20        Q.   What about their status, was it regulated in the same way as for

21     the previous two categories, as far as the role of the FRY was concerned?

22        A.   No, their status was only regulated within the VRS and the

23     territory it covered.  The next source, officers and NCOs being schooled

24     and trained at the Rajko Balac Military School Centre in Banja Luka,

25     which was directly under the Main Staff of the VRS.  Following their

Page 12619

 1     training and education, officers and NCOs would normally receive certain

 2     ranks such as various NCO ranks, or, for example, the rank of second

 3     lieutenant, whereupon they would be dispatched to institutions and units

 4     of the VRS.  Their status would normally be regulated within the VRS.

 5     This was something that was under the authority of the government and

 6     parliament of Republika Srpska.

 7        Q.   We've heard some figures being bandied about in this courtroom

 8     about the exact number of former JNA officers and NCOs, active-duty ones,

 9     now became members of the VRS.  Given your position at the time, however,

10     perhaps you could tell us more about the numbers concerning these others,

11     former JNA reserve officers and NCOs whose status was regulated within

12     Republika Srpska and the VRS in terms of percentage of figures, if you

13     can, please?

14        A.   I'm unable to recall specific figures, but I think the number or

15     percentage was slightly higher than that relating to the former JNA

16     members.

17        Q.   I'll be showing you a document after the break in a bit to learn

18     more about -- just a minute, please.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   First of all, I will continue to call this group "former JNA

22     reserve officers."  Which ranks did they hold for the most part in the

23     VRS?

24        A.   Under the law on the VRS that applied at the time, they could be

25     promoted up to the rank of major.  In exceptional cases, some men

Page 12620

 1     performing very high-ranking duties or establishment posts equivalent to

 2     the rank of lieutenant-colonel or colonel would be promoted nevertheless,

 3     regardless of the fact that they were part of the reserve component.

 4        Q.   And we have these names that we're using, active JNA and former

 5     reserve JNA; as far as the structure of the army itself in terms of how

 6     the men performed their duties, were there any difference in terms of

 7     powers and authorisations?

 8        A.   There was no difference.  They were all part of the same system.

 9        Q.   A moment ago, I asked about ranks.  What of the establishment

10     posts that they were appointed to, up to what -- up to which

11     establishment posts were these reserve officers appointed, if you know?

12        A.   As far as I remember, the VRS was manned with officers and NCOs

13     of the former JNA up to 20 per cent roughly.  All the other establishment

14     posts were filled by others, those who were financed by and whose status

15     was settled within Republika Srpska and the VRS.  For this reason,

16     approximately 50 per cent of establishment posts of brigade commanders

17     were filled with officers from the reserve force.  These were, in other

18     words, reserve officers of the former JNA who now became officers of the

19     Army of Republika Srpska as was any other active-duty officer, in fact.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Can we now call up another document

22     from the 65 ter defence list, 01077D.

23        Q.   I showed you this document during proofing, General.  Can you

24     please read it to yourself and then I'll ask for your comments.

25        A.   Can it be enlarged, please?

Page 12621

 1        Q.   Let us wait for the English translation to appear so that

 2     Their Honours can follow your testimony.

 3             This is an order from the Main Staff of the VRS dated the

 4     7th of September, 1992, signed by the commander

 5     Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic.

 6             Now, General, what was the reason behind this order?  Why did

 7     Ratko Mladic issue this order?

 8        A.   I'm familiar with this order because we brought it along when I

 9     was on the commission that I referred to yesterday which toured the units

10     that were in the making.  The objective of this order was to make sure

11     that all the members of the VRS carried the VRS insignia.  Those who

12     refused to do so were discharged or released.  The individuals or units

13     which refused to do so were sent away from the VRS.  There were officers

14     who were self-proclaimed local commanders and who were not reserve

15     officers of the JNA.  They were ordinary soldiers.  They were self-styled

16     officers who, on their own initiative or with co-operation of local

17     authorities, conferred upon themselves the ranks of most often captains

18     or majors.  We were forced to abolish these ranks and divest them of

19     their powers and to issue documents banning the conferral of such ranks

20     locally upon anyone.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we receive an exhibit number for

23     this document, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

25     please be given an exhibit number.

Page 12622

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 2     Exhibit D405.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   General, have you heard of the 30th Personnel Centre, or had you

 6     heard of it at the time?

 7        A.   I have to be honest and say that I heard of the

 8     30th Personnel Centre sometime in late 1994.  I had certainly not heard

 9     of it in 1993.

10        Q.   Can you tell us, What did you hear of the 30th Personnel Centre?

11     What was your information at the time?

12        A.   The information I had indicated that the 30th Personnel Centre

13     kept records and personnel files relating to the status of the members of

14     the former JNA who were members of the VRS and whose status was settled

15     through that centre within the system of the Army of Yugoslavia pursuant

16     to the decisions of the Supreme Defence Council.

17        Q.   Based on the information you had, the 30th Personnel Centre was

18     part of which army?

19        A.   The service that I was familiar with was housed in the personnel

20     administration building of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia in

21     Belgrade.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let us move on to your new function.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And can we call up a 65 ter Defence

24     document, 0049D --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  00249D.

Page 12623

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Yesterday, as we went through your CV, we made a passing

 3     reference to it.  Can you tell us what this document is and how you came

 4     to be the minister of defence in the RS government?

 5        A.   I explained it yesterday.  Vladimir Lukic, prime minister

 6     designate, proposed that I be appointed defence minister.  The

 7     Assembly of Republika Srpska elected the entire RS government, including

 8     myself as defence minister.  Immediately thereafter, the president of the

 9     RS, Radovan Karadzic, issued a presidential decree appointing me to the

10     establishment post of lieutenant-general since, by virtue of the

11     establishment system, the post of the defence minister was the post of a

12     lieutenant-general.  Since it was an officer, a general, who occupied

13     this post, I came under the system covering all the VRS generals.

14        Q.   In other words, you continued receiving your salary as before; is

15     that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Tell us, if you know, who proposed that you be appointed to this

18     post, and what was the relationship of other individuals holding

19     positions to you?

20        A.   I was not told who proposed me.  A day before the Assembly of

21     Republika Srpska went into session, the prime minister designate Lukic

22     summoned me and told me that he was the one who nominated me for this

23     position.  President Karadzic was there as well.  My reaction was that of

24     exasperation because I wondered why nobody had consulted me previously.

25     I was concerned that I would not be capable of discharging this function.

Page 12624

 1     Lukic's reply was that he had consulted a number of people, including

 2     General Mladic, who told him the following:  We did not nominate

 3     Kovacevic, but we do agree that he be appointed to that position.

 4             A number of members of the SDS leadership, especially

 5     Velibor Ostojic, were opposed to my nomination as an officer of the

 6     former JNA and as a former commie that I should in fact occupy this post.

 7     And ultimately I agreed to be nominated.

 8        Q.   You said that they referred to you as a commie.  What did they

 9     mean by it?  Was it a derogatory term?

10        A.   It was a derogatory term mocking all those who at one time used

11     to be members of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia.

12        Q.   General, at the time or at any point thereafter, were you a

13     member of any political party?

14        A.   No.  I have never been a member of any political party or any

15     other organisation.

16        Q.   Another question related to this document:  Who was your

17     predecessor in the position of defence minister and what became of him?

18        A.   It was General Bogdan Subotic who, having been exposed to

19     pressure from certain circles from the SDS party, was removed.

20        Q.   Did he hold any other position subsequently?

21        A.   Yes, he was advisor to the president of the republic,

22     Radovan Karadzic, and he was also inspector within the office of the

23     president of the republic who was charged with overseeing conduct within

24     the Army of Republika Srpska.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be exhibited,

Page 12625

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 3     please be given an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 5     Exhibit D406.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Another document related to this

 8     issue, also from the 65 ter Defence list, 00251D.

 9        Q.   I think that the document bears the same date as the earlier one,

10     and it's also signed by Karadzic.  Can you tell us what it is and why it

11     was signed by President Karadzic?

12        A.   It's a record of the hand-over of duty of the -- or, rather, the

13     defence minister taking up his duty.  I signed it, as did

14     Radovan Karadzic in the capacity of the authority issuing orders.

15             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, let me let the witness finish his

16     answer, but we were informed that this document and the previous document

17     are not on the 65 ter list.  I only -- sorry.  We have not been notified

18     that these were going to be exhibits.  Now, I don't want to make a large

19     issue out of this.  It just makes it very inconvenient for us when we are

20     managing this side of the bar table to deal with these exhibits because

21     we haven't been informed that they were to be exhibits.  I only make that

22     observation.  I don't object, and I don't object to the witness

23     testifying about this.  I can read it off of the monitor.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have to respond, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, please do.

Page 12626

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I indicated to Mr. Harmon that I

 2     would be using -- and I'm just told by my Case Manager that we indicated

 3     it in the list under number 22 and under number 24, so the Prosecution

 4     was given notice of both documents.  But more importantly, we also gave

 5     them notice of the document because we said that we would be using the

 6     personnel file of this witness which was also on the Prosecution's

 7     65 ter list.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under item 22 and 24, when was that notice given?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Bear with us for a moment.  We sent

10     it on either Friday or Saturday.  We will check this now.  We sent two

11     lists, since proofing lasted the whole weekend.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon, apparently they claim to have sent it

13     to you.

14             MR. HARMON:  Well, I am looking at a list with my Case Manager

15     and those two items are not items 22 and 24 on the list, nor do I have,

16     according to Ms. Javier, receipt of those two documents.  So, again, I'm

17     not -- don't care to make a large issue out of this, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand.

19             MR. HARMON:  I'm just saying it makes it very difficult for us to

20     manage this side of the case when we don't have the documents prepared in

21     advance.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can understand.  Now, it's your word against

23     Mr. Lukic's.  I'm not sure what to do about that, you know, because he

24     claims to have sent it, you say you don't have it.  I think the next best

25     thing to do, Mr. Lukic, is to show us proof of delivery.

Page 12627

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right.  Just a minute,

 2     Your Honours.  Just a minute, please.  We sent two lists separately.  The

 3     personnel file document ... maybe it's best if we can inform you on this

 4     during the break.  I can get the exact document from the list, if that's

 5     a problem for Mr. Harmon, but, personally, I believe that he should be

 6     familiar with this document because it's part of the personnel file.  And

 7     it was on the OTP's 65 ter list.  I do understand.  I do understand.

 8     Just a minute, please.  We are about to provide it.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Registrar says he was copied on that e-mail.

10     He has the document too.  And the document on the screen is listed under

11     item number 24.  And apparently he received this document, this e-mail,

12     on Friday -- yesterday.  In the meantime, you can be finding your own

13     proof of service, in case you believe you served it even earlier than

14     yesterday.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is not my intention to create any

16     more confusion.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  According to Mr. Registrar, it was not on the list

18     of Friday, but it came in yesterday.

19             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, we don't have a list of yesterday.  If

20     there's a list that was sent yesterday, perhaps Mr. -- I see head shaking

21     over there, Your Honour.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, we sent it yesterday.  As Drolec

23     has just explained, we sent this through to the Registry so that they

24     might be better able to follow in e-court.  That was for the Registry,

25     but we sent a list to the OTP last weekend.  That much is certain.  And

Page 12628

 1     now we're trying to get that clarified.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm happy to proceed at this point with

 4     this document.  Mr. Lukic and I can resolve this later.  It's just --  as

 5     I say, it's not an objection to the witness testifying about this

 6     particular document, it's only the inconvenience I noted.  And I'm

 7     prepared to proceed, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I leave the matter to the parties to sort out

 9     during the break, please?  And if there's any difficulty, then I would --

10     after the break, will ask you to show us proof of delivery.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] By all means.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, why was it necessary to produce this order -- or,

15     rather, this document?

16        A.   It was necessary to produce this document in order to regulate my

17     service status such as my salary, salary bracket is what it says here,

18     that also has further ramifications for my pension, social and health

19     benefits, and so on and so forth.  All of the contributions were paid out

20     of this social benefits and so on and so forth.  This was just to make

21     sure that there was no interruption, not even a single day, to these

22     payments being made, because this was the day I took up my duty.  And

23     there was a 15-, or 20-day gap, so to speak, for Subotic to leave and for

24     me to come into office.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we please receive a number for

Page 12629

 1     this document, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 3     please be given an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 5     Exhibit D407.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Now I'd like to discuss how the defence ministry was organised.

10     General, as briefly as possible, and then we'll be looking at certain

11     laws that tell us who had what powers.

12        A.   When I took over as minister, the defence ministry had very low

13     manning levels.  It was poorly organised, and we were unable to

14     re-organise straightaway and to make sure we were functioning in keeping

15     with the law.  I asked the government and the Main Staff to have a number

16     of experts seconded to the ministry to help us along with our

17     professional assignments.

18        Q.   Was your request granted?

19        A.   Only to a very small extent and never in full.

20        Q.   I think the best idea would be to look at the laws and see what

21     the powers and authority were of your ministry.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is Defence Exhibit D108.  Can we

23     draw that one up, please.  Thank you.  It's page 2 of the B/C/S and

24     page 2 of the English.  Articles 10 and 13 of the Law on Defence are the

25     paragraphs that we'll be looking at.

Page 12630

 1             We've just sent an e-mail ascertaining that the list was

 2     delivered on Saturday, 2.40 p.m., just to back up what I said previously.

 3     And I hope this resolves our misunderstanding.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying.

 5     When you say "we have just sent an e-mail ascertaining that the list was

 6     delivered on Saturday," are you saying in the e-mail that you have sent

 7     that you have attached a copy of the e-mail that you sent on Saturday?

 8     Then say so.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You received it, Mr. Harmon?

13             MR. HARMON:  I'm checking, Your Honour.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   What we have on our screens is the Law on Defence of

16     Republika Srpska.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, please, of the B/C/S.  And we

18     have the right page in English already.

19        Q.   The law is quite clear on this, and I'm not going to talk any --

20     about all these other things, the functions of the president of the

21     republic and government, but what I'm looking at right now is Article 10,

22     General, which talks about the powers of the defence ministry in terms of

23     defence.

24             General, read this to yourself, please, then I'll be asking you,

25     Did the ministry really have the power that it says here and whether it

Page 12631

 1     took the steps that it was entitled to take under the Law on Defence?

 2        A.   Yes.  All of this is indeed prescribed.  Nevertheless, in actual

 3     fact, Article 2, the Defence ministry was involved in assessing military

 4     and economic and other conditions.  It was not the main implementing

 5     entity; rather, the Ministry of the Economy was.  Number 3, the defence

 6     plan of the republic was never produced, nor did I have an opportunity to

 7     be involved in its drafting.  Why?  Because the leadership at the time

 8     wanted the Main Staff of the VRS to be in charge of the defence plan.

 9             Article 4, we did keep personnel records as those relating to

10     equipment and materiel jointly with other ministries in terms of defining

11     the organisation and tasks of the military administration during a state

12     of emergency, and during my time as minister there was no defence

13     inspection team in the Ministry of Defence.  This was something that was

14     done by General Subotic who was attached to the president of the republic

15     and his cabinet.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please briefly go to

17     Article 13 which is on the next page.  It's a very short article.

18        Q.   It talks about the work obligation or assignment.

19             Look at Article 13, General, please.  Are you aware of the fact

20     that at the time during the war there was this thing called work

21     obligation that was imposed and that applied throughout Republika Srpska?

22        A.   Yes, indeed, that was the case, and I was the person signing

23     decisions in relation to all those subject to it, even as it related to

24     ministers working in the government.

25        Q.   Thank you very much.

Page 12632

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to move on to a

 2     different law now, and I think this might be a convenient time for our

 3     break.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, just so the record's clear, I stand

 6     corrected.  We did receive notice of those documents.  I apologise to --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When did you receive them?

 8             MR. HARMON:  We received an e-mail on the 10th of July at

 9     2.48 p.m.  So I stand corrected.  I apologise for the interruption.  I

10     apologise to counsel as well.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are welcome, sir.

12             We take a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   General, I would like to shed some light on the powers of the

18     defence ministry but based on a different law, the law on the VRS.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the

20     Prosecution Exhibit P191.  I would like to know more about provisions in

21     relation to Article 16.  The B/C/S page reference is 26.  In the English

22     it's 38 and 39.  Article 274, and then the articles that follow.  274,

23     Article 274.

24        Q.   Where it says "part 2," that heading.  Thank you.  I would like

25     to comment on this provision that talks about the management of assets

Page 12633

 1     and materiel and financial transactions in the army.  This is something

 2     that is familiar to you because you were defence minister and previously

 3     worked in the Main Staff.  The law dates back to June 1992.

 4             General, I will not read this out loud.  Once the Judges are done

 5     reading the first part of Article 274, maybe we can turn the page and

 6     move on to the next page.

 7             General, let me ask you first, based on Article 274, particularly

 8     paragraph 2 which defines assets, moveable and immovable property,

 9     property rights, and so on and so forth, to put it as simply as possible,

10     would this include materiel and equipment as well as funds used to make

11     sure the army is functioning properly?

12        A.   Yes.  When it says "assets," it means funds which the RS

13     government provides for in the budget.  Funds are specially earmarked to

14     be used by the VRS.  Immovables, that means military facilities,

15     installations, barracks, depots, petrol stations, and other structures

16     and facilities used by the army.  Moveable assets meaning weapons and all

17     military equipment in the possession of the army.  Ownership rights, what

18     that means is the army was able to agree on certain contracts in terms of

19     leasing and everything else that is employed under this term ownership

20     rights or property rights.

21        Q.   Could you comment on the following article, please, which talks

22     about the army's funds.  Can you read this article first, this one, and

23     then we can pull it up and read Article 276 because the two are actually

24     related.  I think it might be beneficial for everyone to have both

25     displayed on our screens.  Just a minute, please, until we have that as

Page 12634

 1     well.  The English specifically.  Thank you.

 2        A.   "Military budget --"

 3        Q.   No need for you to read this out loud, General.  My comment is,

 4     How is this -- how is this determined, who makes proposals, and who

 5     defines and approves the budget plan for the army?

 6        A.   The Main Staff of the VRS would draft a proposal or a draft plan

 7     of annual funding.  This plan would include all of its needs in terms of

 8     the tasks that the VRS had to perform over a year.  The draft proposal or

 9     the draft plan would be forwarded or submitted to the Ministry of Defence

10     for analysis.  The defence ministry would then assess the general

11     circumstances which prevailed and would then go on to normally draft

12     another proposal which would normally take into account about 30 per cent

13     of the army's needs.

14        Q.   Just a minute, please, I have a subsidiary question to ask here.

15     When you say "take into account 30 per cent of the army's needs," why was

16     that?  Because you considered the army's demands to be too ambitious, or

17     did you have a different reason to make amendments to the proposed budget

18     drafted by the Main Staff?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.  We made amendments to the plan based on fresh

20     information regarding the situation concerning manning levels in the

21     army's units.  We determined that the demands were unrealistically high,

22     enormous.  That was why we made certain amendments and tried to present

23     this within a more realistic framework.

24             The modified plan was tabled to the RS government in the form of

25     a proposal.  The draft plan was then discussed and reviewed at a

Page 12635

 1     government meeting.  When the proposal was discussed, normally members of

 2     the Main Staff were present, particularly General Djukic.  They would

 3     accept this new plan at government meetings.  Sometimes it was the case

 4     that the government accepted our plan, but sometimes the government had

 5     further amendments to make as a result of the debate.

 6        Q.   What happened next with the proposal once the government took its

 7     position on it?

 8        A.   The plan would become part and parcel of the budget of

 9     Republika Srpska.  As the funds came into the budget of Republika Srpska,

10     the government would issue orders to -- or would instruct the finance

11     minister to set aside certain funds and credit them directly to the

12     account of the Main Staff of the VRS.  It would also inform the defence

13     ministry that this particular part of the budget, 5 or 10 per cent of it,

14     dependent on what the amount was, had thus been executed, or this part of

15     the budget was executed.

16        Q.   Let us stop here for a moment.  At page 29, line 21, I would like

17     us to clarify this bit.  You mentioned the account of the Main Staff of

18     the VRS.  Did anyone have access to the account; and, if so, who did?

19     Where was this account kept?

20        A.   The account through which the budget of the VRS was executed was

21     located in a bank at Sokolac.  Funds could be used from this account only

22     when so instructed by individuals who had signatures certified with that

23     bank, and this was General Tomic, assistant commander of the Main Staff

24     of the VRS, who was in charge of finances, budget, and accounting.  I

25     think that such deposited signatures were also held by

Page 12636

 1     General Milovanovic and General Mladic.  Only these individuals from the

 2     Main Staff were able to dispose of these funds.

 3        Q.   In what way was the Ministry of Defence involved in this process

 4     or informed of the dispensing of these funds?

 5        A.   When it came to this sort of funds that were earmarked in the

 6     budget for the army, it was the Main Staff which independently took

 7     decisions on the way in which these funds would be used.  They were,

 8     however, duty-bound, and this is something that they did, to inform in

 9     writing the Ministry of Defence of the purposes for which these funds

10     were spent.  I myself received such reports.

11        Q.   Another question which I don't think we cleared fully.  Who gave

12     the final green light for the budget of the RS?

13        A.   It was the government or the highest-ranking authority of

14     Republika Srpska which had a final say.

15        Q.   Did the Assembly, that's to say, the parliament, have any

16     involvement in the adoption of the budget?

17        A.   A budget that was in this way formulated and adopted would be the

18     subject of discussion at one of the sessions of the Assembly of

19     Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   Can you explain this for us:  Article 276, in part where it says

21     "regular work and regular operations and maintenance," what does it stand

22     for?

23        A.   These are funds earmarked for general purposes, for overhead

24     expenses such as electricity, et cetera, public utilities, salaries,

25     pension and social benefits of all members of the VRS.

Page 12637

 1        Q.   Would the salaries of those officers referred to earlier on who

 2     previously belonged to the reserve force of the JNA also be paid out from

 3     this budget line?

 4        A.   Yes, that's what I meant when I said that this particular line

 5     would cover the salaries of the members of the VRS.

 6        Q.   And what about these materiel supplies?

 7        A.   This is an item which relates to the funds used for the

 8     purchasing of weapons, ammunition, and other materiel and technical

 9     equipment.

10        Q.   In item 5, military pensions are mentioned.  Can you tell us who

11     received their pensions from the RS budget?

12        A.   I'm not privy to this issue at all.  I think that -- or I can say

13     for at that fact that, at the time, the Ministry of Defence did not set

14     aside funds for anyone's pensions.  I suppose that this part of the

15     budget of the Ministry of Defence was used to pay amounts into the

16     pension fund of Republika Srpska which were to serve as contributions for

17     those members of the VRS that received their salaries from the

18     RS government.

19             I suppose that out of this fund pensions were paid, then, to

20     those pensioners who had gone into retirement at the time of the SFRY, or

21     at the time of the JNA in other words.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at Article 294, which is

23     on the following page, I think, for both the B/C/S -- or, rather, it's

24     page 41 in English.  Article 294, which is at the bottom of the page in

25     the B/C/S and continues on the following page.  The very bottom on the

Page 12638

 1     right-hand side.  There.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   When you finish reading, we will turn to the following page to

 3     complete the reading of the article.  I'm interested in paragraph 3 above

 4     all.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn the page for both

 6     versions.  And in the B/C/S can we have the next page, please.

 7        Q.   I'm interested in this particular paragraph which starts with

 8     "Officers in units and institutions shall act ..." et cetera.  What you

 9     said a moment ago, General, about the various funds at their disposal, is

10     this regulated by this part of the law?

11        A.   Yes.  The funds belonging to the RS government could be used by

12     the Main Staff, that's to say, the commander of the Main Staff of the

13     VRS, Ratko Mladic, and by the minister of defence as a member of the

14     RS government, in part, of course.

15        Q.   Which part of the funds were you entitled to dispose of as

16     minister of defence?

17        A.   I would dispose of those funds for which I had the appropriate

18     authorisation from the government.  The government would credit those

19     funds to the account of the Ministry of Defence, and I was able to

20     dispose of the funds to procure assets required by the VRS in keeping

21     with the budget plan or pursuant -- or, rather, in keeping with the

22     special decision issued by the president of the republic, by the

23     government, or the parliament.

24        Q.   We've finished with this document.  We'll get back to the issue

25     of the budget and the extent to which, in fact, the budget featured

Page 12639

 1     within the finances of the army.

 2             Let's go back to the ministries.  Which other ministries -- or

 3     let me be more precise.  Did the finance ministry in any way participate

 4     in the implementation of these laws and in the activities of the VRS?

 5        A.   Yes.  Often times at the request of General Mladic and most often

 6     at the request of General Djukic, the president of the republic or the

 7     prime minister would issue orders to the finance minister, without the

 8     involvement of the Ministry of Defence, to transfer funds in a certain

 9     amount in dinars or foreign currency.

10        Q.   And did the Ministry of Commerce have any role to play in the

11     finances of the VRS?

12        A.   Whenever fuel or any other goods were being procured such as

13     foodstuffs, medications, any goods of general consumption, or anything

14     that did not involve combat-related goods, these sort of procurements

15     would fall within the competence of the Ministry of Commerce.  In such

16     cases, the government would adopt conclusions where a part of the funds

17     from the budget of the Ministry of Defence and the army would be

18     transferred to the Ministry of Commerce, which would use the funds to

19     procure these goods.  And as I said, most often it was fuel, foodstuffs,

20     and any other goods of general consumption.

21        Q.   Have you heard of the directorate for commodity reserves?

22        A.   Yes, I have heard of that directorate for commodity reserves,

23     because the federal government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had

24     issued a decree whereby all the reserves of the former Yugoslavia present

25     in the territory of Republika Srpska or throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina

Page 12640

 1     were transferred to the competence of the Government of Republika Srpska

 2     and the Government of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   And when was this?

 4        A.   It happened in early 1992 or in mid-1992.

 5        Q.   What became of the fuel reserves that were present in the BH and

 6     which had previously belonged to the JNA?

 7        A.   All the fuel reserves of the former Yugoslav People's Army and of

 8     the former Supreme Command of the SFRY, as well as the reserves of the

 9     SFRY which were referred to at the time as the federal reserves, were

10     placed under the control and competence of the commodity reserves of

11     Republika Srpska.  Or when it came to the other part of the territory

12     under the control of the Croats and Muslims, it was placed within the

13     competence of their authorities.

14        Q.   As for the commodity reserves that were placed within the

15     competence of the RS, who had the direct authority to decide on the way

16     in which these reserves would be disposed of?  And I'm primarily

17     interested in fuel.

18        A.   Pursuant to the regulation, it was only the government that could

19     do that and possibly the parliament.  Exceptionally, the president of the

20     republic as the supreme commander could also dispose of them.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 12641











11  Page 12641 redacted. Private session.















Page 12642

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10   (redacted)

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   There's another ministry that I'm interested.  If you can explain

Page 12643

 1     what role it played in the functioning of the defence system and what

 2     links, if any, it had with the VRS; I'm talking about the industry

 3     ministry.  And what did that ministry have to do with all these topics

 4     that we've been covering?

 5        A.   The industry ministry or Ministry of Industry comprised

 6     special-purpose production companies.  Normally, there were some

 7     government decisions telling them to create conditions for production in

 8     those companies of those products that were required for defending

 9     Republika Srpska, primarily for the VRS.

10        Q.   Thank you.  How often did the government meet, and what shape did

11     the meetings take?  I'm talking about your time as minister.

12        A.   Normally on a weekly basis.

13        Q.   Were there any extraneous persons attending those government

14     meetings who were not members of the government?

15        A.   Yes.  Members of the Main Staff of the VRS would be called on a

16     regular basis, as well as the managers of all important companies,

17     especially those that dealt with commodity reserves.  There were

18     representatives there of other state institutions.

19        Q.   What were the first assignments that you were given in your

20     capacity as minister, following your appointment?

21        A.   The first assignment that the defence ministry got - and that

22     means that I got in my capacity as minister - was the conclusion of the

23     People's Assembly of Republika Srpska, that the ministry should start

24     re-organising and restructuring the VRS.

25        Q.   Did you embark on that assignment?

Page 12644

 1        A.   I took a particularly conscientious, serious, and thorough

 2     approach in terms of tackling that assignment.  The first thing I did was

 3     to conduct consultations with experts in those fields.  I also consulted

 4     some people from UNPROFOR and other foreigners.  I tried to elicit from

 5     them their experiences on how to create a modern and efficient army.  I

 6     also went through a large body of literature describing the structure of

 7     various European armies, especially those who are NATO members.

 8             Two or three months later, I completed a new chart for a

 9     re-organisation and formation of the VRS.

10        Q.   In the briefest of terms, what was the gist of this

11     re-organisation effort?

12        A.   The gist was for the VRS to be reduced in terms of manpower.  It

13     was to number 150.000 soldiers and officers at the very most.

14     Nevertheless, it was supposed to become a disciplined army, a rigorously

15     organised army where discipline reigned and rules of conduct were

16     observed.  One had to know at each point in time who was responsible for

17     what and who was issuing orders in relation to what.

18             About 80.000 members who were still members of the army should

19     leave the army's ranks and go to the industry sector so that the other

20     companies, such as agricultural ones, could continue their production to

21     benefit the people, the army, and cater to all the needs of the VRS

22     itself.

23        Q.   Was this proposal accepted?

24        A.   I first showed this proposal to the RS government.  The

25     government backed my proposal with no reservation whatsoever.  There

Page 12645

 1     wasn't a single vote against the proposal.  Nevertheless, the government

 2     proposed that the Supreme Command, too, should address this issue.

 3             There was a meeting of the Supreme Command at which the proposal

 4     was fully endorsed.  Nevertheless, the president of the republic,

 5     Radovan Karadzic, refused to sign the document, this re-organisation

 6     chart, until members of the Main Staff of the VRS were given a chance to

 7     address the issue at the following meeting of the Supreme Command.

 8             This meeting, too, was then held, and people from the Main Staff

 9     were there.  I'm certain that General Milovanovic was present.  I again

10     presented the plan.  Nevertheless, the representatives of the Main Staff

11     flat out rejected the plan, advising the president of the republic to by

12     no means sign the plan.  Needless to say, the plan was never implemented.

13     But I was now facing a difficult situation, because the army never

14     trusted me.  On the other hand, the SDS did not trust me either.  I've

15     often found myself entertaining thoughts of resignation.

16        Q.   We can try to be more specific about this.  You told us that your

17     appointment as minister came in January and then it took a couple of

18     months.  Can you tell us, roughly speaking, when this debate took place

19     at the Supreme Command meeting when the representatives of the Main Staff

20     opposed your proposal?  That was in 1993; right?

21        A.   Yes, it went on all the way up to the end of July 1993.

22        Q.   What were the arguments that people from the Main Staff put

23     forward?

24        A.   I remember some of their arguments.  General Milovanovic said,

25     Mr. President, if your horse is strong and working well, you don't need a

Page 12646

 1     new one.  The VRS is performing its tasks perfectly well.  There is no

 2     need to introduce any changes to the existing system it.

 3             The other thing was they refused to have any cuts in terms of

 4     manpower, and they refused to deal with the issue of local authority

 5     interference with the command and control system.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  We shall now discuss the Supreme Command.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter Defence

 8     document 00960D.  00960D.

 9        Q.   This is a decision to establish the Supreme Command of the

10     Army of Republika Srpska.  The date is the 30th of November, 1992.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please pull this up

12     slightly.  I'm not sure if our own copy reflects the signature, who

13     signed it, or, for that matter, if the English does.  Yes, thank you.

14     Yes.  I just felt that had to be checked.  The B/C/S is hardly legible;

15     nevertheless, the translators were successful in deciphering this.

16        Q.   General, the decision speaks for itself.  How was the

17     Supreme Command established, and who made up the Supreme Command?

18     Articles 1 and 2 address this issue.

19             Let me first ask you this:  Were you involved in the work of --

20     as we heard from your previous answer but just to be quite specific, were

21     you involved in the work of this body?

22        A.   Yes, I was involved in the work of the Supreme Command in my

23     capacity as defence minister.

24        Q.   How were the dates determined when the Supreme Command meetings

25     were held, or were they held on an ad hoc basis?

Page 12647

 1        A.   The meetings took place whenever circumstances so dictated.  We

 2     never set any particular dates for these meetings.  The meetings were

 3     always set by the president of the republic and supreme commander

 4     Radovan Karadzic.

 5        Q.   Article 5 of this decision talks about the final decision of the

 6     Supreme Command of the VRS, and this is something that is within the

 7     remit of the president of Republika Srpska.

 8             Can you please interpret for us how this panned out in purely

 9     practical terms.  What would a debate as one of these meetings look like,

10     and who would take the final decision?

11        A.   All members of the Supreme Command, as well as those invited to

12     attend meetings of the Supreme Command without necessarily being members,

13     had the right to discuss any topics on the agenda.  They had the right to

14     discuss and make their own proposals.  Nevertheless, only the president

15     of the republic, who was also the supreme commander, had the power to

16     overrule any of these proposals, to accept the proposals, or perhaps

17     adopt an altogether different solution.  None of the Supreme Command

18     members, and that really means no one at all, had the power to take

19     decisions regarding any of the issues debated at a Supreme Command

20     meeting.

21        Q.   All right.  What I would like to ask you now is, What topics

22     exactly were debated or discussed at the Supreme Command meetings for as

23     long as you were there?

24        A.   Normally problems regarding the establishment of the army,

25     problems regarding military supplies, the organisational and

Page 12648

 1     establishment structure of the army, the army's assignments and the way

 2     the army was used, especially as it related to large-scale combat

 3     operations.  Negotiations with the international community, negotiations

 4     with UNPROFOR, regulations that were to be adopted by the parliament, and

 5     other issues too.  Most of the topics related to the defence effort.

 6        Q.   I will not be dealing with these issues specifically.  We may

 7     touch upon them later on.  But can you tell me, Was there a debate on

 8     military operations of the VRS, and were decisions taken about the VRS

 9     military operations at these meetings of the Supreme Command?

10        A.   In principle, no.  Operations were planned outside the knowledge

11     of the members of the Supreme Command and government.  The operations lay

12     solely within the competence of the Main Staff, with the knowledge and

13     approval of the president of the republic.

14             The meetings of the Supreme Command discussed the request put

15     forward by the Main Staff of the VRS which were for the most part put

16     forward by General Mladic and which discussed what it was that the

17     government was supposed to provide the VRS with in order for the

18     operations to be carried out.  Operations had code-names such as the

19     Sava, the Drava, the Drina, et cetera, and we had no idea what part of

20     the territory these operations referred to.

21        Q.   When you say "the Sava, the Drava, the Drina," I suppose you use

22     these names as an example?

23        A.   Yes, it does not necessarily follow that any of these titles was,

24     in fact, used.

25        Q.   Did the Supreme Command meetings discuss any of the VRS

Page 12649

 1     directives?

 2        A.   Yes.  Normally, based on the debate, the president of the

 3     republic would issue orders and directives on all the issues the

 4     discussion touched upon.

 5        Q.   I'm interested in one of the topics that were the subject of the

 6     discussions at these Supreme Command meetings.  At page 42, line 7, you

 7     mention negotiations with the international community.  Were you informed

 8     at Supreme Command meetings, and were discussions taking place about the

 9     peace initiatives and proposals for the resolution of the crisis in

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   Yes, the Supreme Command was reported to and informed on the

12     various proposals for cease-fires and peace agreements.  One other

13     question that was discussed was the humanitarian aid convoys and their

14     release into the protective enclaves of Srebrenica, Gorazde, and Zepa on

15     the part of the VRS.  Also discussed were issued related to negotiations,

16     which I was involved in on one occasion with General Morillon, and it had

17     to do with the shelling of Sarajevo.

18             Also discussed were negotiations and talks with other

19     individuals, especially UNPROFOR commanders, and they had to do with

20     Gorazde, with those enclaves, and with Sarajevo.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before I forget, Your Honours, can I

22     tender this document into evidence.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

24     number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

Page 12650

 1     Exhibit D408.  Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   General, I want to touch upon a topic that has to do with what

 4     we've just discussed, and I would like to spend some more time on this

 5     issue.  Did the Supreme Command discuss the adoption of the

 6     Vance-Owen Plan of 1993 regarding the resolution of the crisis in

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   This issue was not discussed because this was not within the

 9     purview of the Supreme Command.  However, what did take place was a free

10     discussion of the proposal itself, more as a way of assisting the

11     president in his decision by discussing the matter.

12        Q.   And what was your position as minister of defence in relation to

13     the Vance Plan at the time?

14        A.   I was not involved in the matter in any way, but I had a right to

15     voice my opinion and discuss the matter just as everyone else did.  The

16     commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, General Mladic, played a decisive

17     role in the defence system on this issue.

18        Q.   Do you know if an agreement was reached in Greece in Solun, did

19     President Karadzic have anything to do with it, and what was the reaction

20     to it?

21        A.   Yes, I was informed at the meeting of the Supreme Command that

22     the president of the republic, Radovan Karadzic, had placed his initials

23     on an agreement in Athens.  The People's Assembly of Republika Srpska was

24     supposed to speak its mind on this agreement, and the only binding

25     decision would be the one carried by the Assembly itself, as far as this

Page 12651

 1     issue was concerned.

 2        Q.   And did the People's Assembly meet?

 3        A.   Yes, it did.  At Jahorina at Rajska Dolina Hotel.

 4        Q.   Let me first ask you if you attended this meeting, General?

 5        A.   Yes, I was officially invited by the president of the

 6     Assembly of Republika Srpska to attend this session, and I was there in

 7     person.

 8        Q.   Do you recall the date or an approximation of it?

 9        A.   I think it was in early May.  At any rate, it was in May.  I

10     don't know the precise date.

11        Q.   And which year was that?

12        A.   Was it 1993?  1993.

13        Q.   And it was the 5th of May, 1993, the 13th Session.  I don't think

14     my learned friend will mind me saying this.  I will not ask for the

15     minutes from the meeting to be admitted into evidence.

16             Can you tell us, just before the session was opened, what was the

17     general sentiment on the part of the deputies with regard to the

18     Vance Plan?

19        A.   This particular proposal which was initialed by the president of

20     the republic Radovan Karadzic was discussed not only by the

21     Supreme Command but also by the government, and I took part in those

22     discussions.  Both the Supreme Command and the government decided that

23     only the deputies of the Republika Srpska parliament could decide on the

24     matter and that everybody would accept their decision.

25        Q.   Were there any particular guests present at this meeting, if you

Page 12652

 1     remember?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.  There were extraneous guests there.  I remember that

 3     because I was part of the reception party charged with receiving these

 4     individuals.

 5        Q.   And who do you remember arriving at the Assembly meeting among

 6     the extraneous guests?

 7        A.   I personally saw and shook hands with the president of the

 8     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Dobrica Cosic; president of Serbia,

 9     Slobodan Milosevic; Momir Bulatovic; Greek prime minister Michas Takis;

10     and other dignitaries who did not attend this part of the session when

11     President Karadzic reported to the Assembly.

12        Q.   And what happened in this part of the session where the RS

13     leadership was present and these -- this part of the leadership?

14        A.   Well, five or six of us who were the core leadership of

15     Republika Srpska - and I was next to the prime minister - once we greeted

16     everyone, we stepped into a room -- or, rather, we stepped into the hall

17     where the Assembly meeting was to take place, refreshments were served,

18     coffee and drinks.  These were just preliminary discussions, and people

19     were supposed to refresh themselves.

20             At one point, President Slobodan Milosevic asked the president of

21     the Assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik, the following:  Mr. President, have you

22     prepared your deputies in order to make sure that the plan is accepted?

23             Mr. Krajisnik's reply was:  Mr. President, we did not prepare

24     anyone, including the deputies of our Assembly.  We did not exert any

25     sort of influence on them either to accept or reject the proposal.

Page 12653

 1     Everyone has been given their own personal freedom and discretion to

 2     decide based on their conscience.

 3             Milosevic said:  Very well then, the only thing we want to avoid

 4     is for something nonsensical to happen in the end, just so that something

 5     silly would not happen.

 6        Q.   How did you understand what the representatives of the FRY said,

 7     that something silly should not happen?

 8        A.   Well, their position was that they wanted the proposal to be

 9     accepted at any cost and they were there to lobby for it.  However,

10     Milosevic was unhappy with the response he got from the president of the

11     Assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik, the response that he gave him.

12        Q.   General, we have the minutes from this session here in this case.

13     We will not be discussing it at length.  Just tell us what sort of

14     decision was taken in the end, and who took the floor?  Did you yourself

15     take the floor in the debate?

16        A.   Yes, I did.  I said that I would accept any decision, both as a

17     minister and as a human being, taken by the deputies of this Assembly.

18        Q.   Did General Mladic address the Assembly; and, if so, do you

19     recall what his position was?

20        A.   All the deputies took part in the debate, and most of them were

21     against the adoption of the plan.  The ministers on -- of the government,

22     including myself, didn't have a decision-making power in this, so we did

23     not get involved.  General Mladic discussed at length the consequences

24     that the adoption of this plan would have, and he said that the plan was

25     not good at all and that it had to be rejected.

Page 12654

 1        Q.   And did the deputies -- or, rather, did the guests address the

 2     Assembly and take part in the debate, and what did they say?

 3        A.   All the guests took the floor, and some of them addressed the

 4     Assembly on more than one occasion.  They all were in favour of the

 5     adoption of the plan because they wanted the war to end and they wanted

 6     the sanctions to be lifted from Yugoslavia.  Some of them addressed the

 7     Assembly of Republika Srpska in pleading tones in order to try and urge

 8     them to accept the proposal.

 9             The Greek prime minister Michas Takis also addressed the

10     Assembly, and he also pleaded with the deputies to adopt the plan.  At

11     the interval, he wanted to talk to me and asked me to provide him with

12     some figures and information.  He urged me to take the floor and urge the

13     deputies to accept the plan.  I told him in reply that I was not a deputy

14     and did not have the power of getting involved in the debate in this way.

15        Q.   Very well.  What was the ultimate decision?  Was the vote secret

16     or public?

17        A.   Votes were cast, and most of them were against the plan.  A

18     number of deputies were abstained -- abstained, and I don't recall that

19     anyone was against.

20        Q.   Do you mean that anyone was in favour of the adoption of the

21     plan?

22        A.   Yes, I do not recall any of the deputies voting in favour of the

23     plan.

24        Q.   Is there anything that remained etched in your memory from this

25     particular session?  What was the reaction on the part of the guests?

Page 12655

 1        A.   Base on the established protocol, there were members of the MUP

 2     of Serbia represented there as well.  We decided again to organise a

 3     formal sendoff of the guests in the way envisaged by the protocol.  As I

 4     was heading toward the exit within the party of guests and deputies, I

 5     heard such vulgar expletives both from Milosevic, Bulatovic, and Cosic,

 6     and everyone there as left me speechless.  I just could not imagine such

 7     dignitaries uttering oaths of that kind.  They refused to formally greet

 8     anyone there.  They practically fled the building, got into their cars;

 9     and it was only the police who managed to catch up to them.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session now,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

14           [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I asked that we move into private

19     session because I would like to discuss with the witness two entries from

20     the documentation that were referred to as Mladic's notebooks.

21             First of all, I should like to apply for your leave to be given

22     65 ter 0337D, to actually -- to include them on the list.  And for

23     Mr. Harmon, this is folder 36/1; that's where the entry comes from.  And

24     the date of the entry is 17 and 19 June, 1993.  I can also provide ERN

25     numbers for Mr. Harmon, but I'm sure that he will be able to find it

Page 12656

 1     easily.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon?

 3             MR. HARMON:  I have no objection, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since we have two different

 6     translations in English, could we have the first translation on our

 7     screens.  And the pages in the B/C/S and English are the same.  This is

 8     the B/C/S.  That's right.  And then the next page.

 9        Q.   As we can tell, the date is the 17th of June, 1993.

10     Chronologically, we are picking up where we left off in the previous

11     document.  It says "meeting with defence minister."

12             General, during our proofing, I showed you this document and we

13     discussed it.  Based on that, do you remember meeting General Mladic in

14     June, and do you remember discussing what is specified here in this

15     entry?  Perhaps you want it read back to you.  I'm not sure if you can

16     read the Cyrillic text.

17             Number 1:  Establishing the ministry and organising the ministry.

18        A.   Yes, I believe that this is accurate.  I asked General Mladic on

19     several occasions to have a number of officers who were experts seconded

20     to me to help me out with the field of military industry, specifically,

21     and with finances.  I wanted to have those officers seconded by the army

22     to the defence ministry.

23        Q.   What was General Mladic's position on this issue, on VRS officers

24     working for the ministry?  Did he back your proposals?

25        A.   Yes, he did, but he had a tough time making the actual decisions

Page 12657

 1     in terms of renouncing on the assistance of such qualified officers.  He

 2     wasn't willing to let them go and believed their services were more

 3     necessary for the army than for the ministry.  Nevertheless, he did

 4     second a number of those.

 5        Q.   And what was the position of the civilian authorities vis-à-vis

 6     this issue?  The ministry being reinforced, if you will, by people from

 7     the army.  You talked about the position of certain politicians, but what

 8     was the general position that prevailed in terms of the army being

 9     involved in the ministry's work in this way?

10        A.   The SDS who were in power opposed this possibility of having

11     officers work for the ministry, particularly JNA officers.  They always

12     opposed this.  It was a considerable difficulty that I had to deal with.

13     I was supposed to set up a ministry that would have qualified people

14     working there, which would enable us to discharge our tasks in a

15     professional way and in keeping with the law.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move on to the next

17     page.  I have a brief question about the substance there.  Could he have

18     the English too, please.

19        Q.   Towards the top of the page, we can see you state:

20             "To begin with, I would need Colonel Malcic, Zujic, and

21     Lieutenant-Colonel Dubovac seconded."

22             Do you remember asking for these men specifically?

23        A.   Yes, I do.  Colonel Malcic was a personnel and HR expert.  Zujic

24     was an expert in the quartermasters duties.  And Dubovac was an expert in

25     finance and budget.

Page 12658

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.

 2             Could we move on to the following entry immediately, the

 3     following meeting and talk about that.  It is described here as the

 4     Supreme Command of the VRS meeting.  The 23rd of June 1993 is the date

 5     reflected there.  Who seems to be in attendance?  Some of these men, I

 6     understand why they were there, but this man named Adzic, the last person

 7     mentioned here, who might that be?

 8        A.   He was the minister of the interior in the RS government.  Before

 9     that, he used to work as president of Ilijas municipality.

10        Q.   General, if I may ask you one thing, you're listed here as one of

11     the attendees, and there's an entry that reflects one of your own

12     contributions.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How much longer are you going to be on this

14     question?

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we'd best simply stop now.  I

16     reckoned I had another 10 minutes, but I was wrong, Your Honour.  Maybe

17     we just best move back into open session.  I might spend some time on

18     this.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We'll take a break and come

23     back at half past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

Page 12659

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 2             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I just want to announce the presence of

 3     Monsieur Laurent Vuillemin who is a Case Manager on our team and who will

 4     be attending this session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You are welcome.

 6             Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go back into private

 8     session.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

10          [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

15        Q.   General, first of all, what it says here, I'm not sure if you're

16     able to read it, Mr. Karadzic's contribution, it reads:

17             "Based on our assessment and the assessment of the rest of the

18     world, we have won and will be given a state.  Both the Croats and we

19     should do something so that the Muslims get some territory in central

20     Bosnia.  First there was talk about 38, then 33 municipalities, and now

21     we are talking about the treasures of Bosnia in 30 municipalities.

22     America must find someone to blame (Germany) to change their policy."

23             In relation to what we discussed a while ago about the

24     13th Assembly session at Jahorina and the decision that was taken, what

25     was the political reality that you faced in Republika Srpska, given the

Page 12660

 1     fact that the Vance-Owen Plan had been rejected?  And a month after that

 2     discussion we see President Karadzic saying this.  How did he get the

 3     information?

 4        A.   I had no specific information myself.  I do believe, however,

 5     that Karadzic actually uttered these words at the Supreme Command

 6     meeting.  This was firsthand information, if I can put it that way.  I

 7     know that after the proposal had been rejected at the Assembly meeting,

 8     Karadzic was involved in intense talks with all the international players

 9     in an attempt to find a way out of the crisis and possibly find a

10     peaceful solution, a solution that would leave the three peoples involved

11     equally happy without any victors and without the vanquished.  This was

12     Karadzic's general position which he held as early on as the very outset,

13     back in 1992, when demands were made to draw borders to separate the

14     Serbs from the Croats and the Muslims.

15        Q.   Thank you very much.  In a general sense, what Karadzic was

16     saying here, was that common place for members of the Supreme Command to

17     be informed about information such as this and about his position

18     regarding the peace talks?

19        A.   In principle, yes, but this wasn't something that happened all

20     the time, but it was customary.

21        Q.   Two pages further into the document, same entry, same meeting,

22     but I would like you to comment on a different topic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Right there, we can stop there,

24     please.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Perhaps if we could have a comment from you.  What it says about

Page 12661

 1     Krajisnik.  And then it reads, all -- I can't read this word, even though

 2     it's in my own language.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we zoom in to the English, please.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   It reads, "personal and arrogant and self-sufficient."

 6             General, in your opinion, are these words actually uttered by

 7     Mr. Krajisnik, or is it just an addendum?

 8        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.

 9        Q.   What we see, if you look at this entry, normally these are

10     quotes, someone is saying something.  But the way it's written here, how

11     does this strike you?  Do you perhaps remember what was said?  Is this

12     something that Mr. Krajisnik actually said, or is this about something

13     else?  "Everything directed and subordinated to" - I'm not sure what it

14     says - are personal, arrogant, self-sufficient.

15             What could that possibly mean?

16        A.   Krajisnik might have been talking about Mladic, making an

17     assessment of Mladic being like that.  I don't --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

19             MR. HARMON:  Your Honours, I'm going to object.  This witness

20     apparently doesn't have personal knowledge about this quotation.  He is

21     speculating and therefore his testimony is not appropriate.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully agree.  I fully agree.

23        Q.   General, just what you remember.  I have here a suggestion by my

24     client.  Mr. Perisic claims that this word is mentioned again in a

25     different line "Zabrdje," therefore I'm re-reading this sentence.

Page 12662

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you reading what Mr. Perisic is saying here?

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say you have here a suggestion by your

 4     client, what do you mean?

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Perisic --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But Mr. Perisic has not taken the stand yet to

 7     give testimony.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, but he's making a suggestion on

 9     how I should phrase my question.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Phrase your question without referring to him.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

12        Q.   General, if we read the Cyrillic script here, everything directed

13     and subordinated to his "Zabrdje."  What does that mean to you,

14     "Zabrdje."

15        A.   Zabrdje is a village in which Momcilo Krajisnik was born.  It is

16     on the outskirts of Sarajevo in the Rajlovac area.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As you can see, Your Honours, there

18     is a discrepancy between my reading of the B/C/S and the translation that

19     we see here.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed that's what's giving -- causing me

21     problems, because I don't see "everything."  I don't see the word

22     "everything;" I see "channelled."

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll read it out loud, and I'll ask

24     the interpreters in the booths to confirm whether my reading of the

25     Cyrillic is correct the way I see it.

Page 12663

 1             "Krajisnik:  Everything directed and subordinated to his Zabrdje.

 2     Personal and arrogant and self-sufficient."

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what does "Zabrdje" mean?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just asked the General, and he

 5     explained in the previous answer.  Page 56, line 7.

 6        Q.   General, the word "Zabrdje," what is it?

 7        A.   I said this, and I'll repeat it.  Momcilo Krajisnik was born in

 8     the village of Zabrdje, the president of the Assembly of

 9     Republika Srpska.  That's his native village.  Mladic is making an

10     assessment here at this meeting --

11             MR. HARMON:  I'm going to object again, Your Honours.  It calls

12     for speculation.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's not Mladic speaking here; it's supposed to be

14     Krajisnik.

15             Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I have my own theory.  I think

17     the more Mr. Harmon reads these documents, he will tend to agree with me

18     more and more.  Personal points of view of the author are often given

19     here or stated.  That is my theory, my position.  I understand

20     Mr. Harmon, and we shall not be asking the witness to speculate.  So if

21     the witness is unable to help us, we'll probably be unable to elicit an

22     answer from him.  But I thought this might be a good way to familiarise

23     ourselves with something that we shall be encountering further into the

24     document.  I will drop the line of questioning, though.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

Page 12664

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   The next entry reads "Lukic."  Who was Lukic at the time?

 3        A.   The president of the RS government.

 4        Q.   All right.  Next page, please.  What exactly is he recorded as

 5     saying there?

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is the next page in both the

 7     B/C/S and the English.

 8        Q.   The entry reads as follows:

 9             "Some battalions have three or four suppliers.  Number of

10     officers are busy doing anything rather than dealing with the front

11     line."

12             What was the meaning of Mr. Lukic's words in this particular

13     entry?

14        A.   The information is accurate.  The president of the RS government

15     Lukic obtained this information normally by touring units in my presence.

16     We shared the view that this was not a good thing and that the supreme

17     commander should do something about it.

18        Q.   Further down, there's an entry which reads:

19             "A number of commanding officers and authorities provide very

20     imprecise details."

21             Who provides information, and what sort of information is it?

22        A.   I know for a fact that from the very outset local commanders had

23     their own local sponsors and most often these were municipalities,

24     private businessmen, and state-owned companies whose managers were

25     members of the SDS.  They provided all the necessary supplies to the

Page 12665

 1     local brigade without informing the superior command of the corps, and

 2     the corps in turn did not have any information to report on to the

 3     Main Staff.  Accordingly, the Main Staff was not provided precise

 4     information as to the quantities of combat assets available to these

 5     units.  This was general practice at all levels.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tender this document into evidence,

 8     and can it be placed under seal for the time being.  And I would also

 9     like to ask to move into open session again.

10             MR. HARMON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

12     please be given an exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

14     Exhibit D409.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  And may it please be kept under seal.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we move into public session,

17     Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I would like to move on to a new topic, that's to say, supplies

24     of materiel and technical equipment in the VRS during your term of office

25     as minister of defence.  I would also like to hear whatever knowledge you

Page 12666

 1     might have on this issue which dated from the previous period.

 2             Based on the information privy to you, what was the level of

 3     equipment that the VRS had and were the supplies of weapons it received

 4     sufficient?

 5        A.   Yes.  It was sufficiently equipped with all types of weapons

 6     which had been at the disposal of the then-JNA -- or, rather, the

 7     then-former JNA.

 8        Q.   To your knowledge, how well were the other two participants in

 9     the conflict, the BH army and the HVO, equipped with weapons?

10        A.   Based on intelligence and other types of information I received

11     on a daily basis, I knew that the Croatian Defence Council was well armed

12     with weapons it received from the Republic of Croatia.  I knew that the

13     Muslim side, that's to say the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was

14     comparatively poorly equipped but that it had been receiving all manner

15     of weapons from abroad.  The weapons were transported by planes landing

16     in the Dubrava airfield in Tuzla.

17             I also knew what types of weapons and in what quantities were

18     provided in individual planes.

19        Q.   Tell us, in the subsequent years of the conflict, did the

20     supplies of weapons held by the HVO and BH increase or decrease in time?

21        A.   As far as the HVO was concerned, the numbers stagnated, but the

22     BH army received increasingly large amounts of weapons and ammunition.

23     Furthermore, fighters were joining the BH army from Arab countries, they

24     were referred to as al-Qaeda, and they posed a large threat to the VRS.

25        Q.   Let us now discuss ammunition.  What sort of ammunition supplies

Page 12667

 1     did the VRS have at the beginning of the war, and did that situation

 2     change subsequently?

 3        A.   At the beginning of the war and through to the end of 1993, the

 4     VRS had sufficient quantities of ammunition and fuel.  Objectively and

 5     realistically speaking, there was no need for certain types of ammunition

 6     to be additionally obtained because the quantities were sufficient.

 7     There were only a couple of types of ammunition that were in short

 8     supply.

 9        Q.   And in the subsequent period from late 1993 onwards, what was the

10     situation with regard to ammunition?

11        A.   From the start of 1994, the problem of shortage of ammunition and

12     fuel became gradually more prominent.  This was a problem that I

13     personally and the members of the Main Staff were confronted with because

14     we received requests for ammunition.  I believed the requests to be

15     exaggerated and unrealistic.  Such quantities of ammunition were neither

16     necessary nor was it easy to obtain them in such quantities at such short

17     notice.

18             I normally instructed them to go to apply to their local brigades

19     and to inspect the weapons depots they had, but they would see that they

20     had ammunition in enough -- in sufficient quantities which could be used

21     in a rational manner, rather than applied to the state to use its

22     resources to obtain ammunition that was already there.

23        Q.   We will be focusing on fuel later on; that's why I wanted us to

24     discuss ammunition first.  In what way was ammunition procured for the

25     needs of the VRS in the period we are discussing now which is from 1994

Page 12668

 1     onwards?

 2        A.   This was the standard procedure.  The army or the Main Staff

 3     would state their needs to the Ministry of Defence or directly to the

 4     supreme commander.  And if they addressed the commander, then they would

 5     normally at the same time inform the prime minister and myself.  The

 6     government and the Supreme Command were responsible for seeing what sort

 7     of ammunitions were required and in what quantities.  The ammunition was

 8     obtained from local manufacture in the weapons factories in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, then also from the special-purpose industry companies

10     in the FRY.  Whereas for those types of ammunition which could not be

11     obtained from these sources, the president of the republic,

12     Radovan Karadzic, would always tell us that he would go and see

13     Slobodan Milosevic in order to try and resolve the matter.

14             Normally, on his return, which would be 10, 15, or 20 days later,

15     he would inform either the Supreme Command or the inner circle of the

16     government and certain members of the Main Staff that president

17     Slobodan Milosevic had promised him that the Army of Yugoslavia would

18     provide the ammunition or that he, through the Supreme Defence Council,

19     and sometimes he personally, would see to it that the matter is resolved.

20     And it was personally General Mladic who was given the authority to

21     resolve such requests.

22        Q.   During such meetings did President Karadzic tell you what

23     General Perisic's position was on the issue of the Army of Yugoslavia

24     providing supplies and materiel and technical equipment?

25        A.   Yes, and he did so often.  I remember that once Karadzic

Page 12669

 1     literally said the following:  General Perisic will not give ammunition

 2     out of his own reserves because that would undermine the reserves of the

 3     Army of Yugoslavia; or, General Perisic will not allow for ammunition to

 4     be provided from Krusik Valjevo or in other locations where ammunition

 5     was being manufactured for the needs of the Army of Yugoslavia.  So

 6     whenever there was a quantity of weapons that had been ordered by the

 7     Army of Yugoslavia for their needs, he would not allow for these assets

 8     to be set aside for this purpose.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said at page 62, line 10,

10     that Karadzic said that General Perisic stated that if such reserves were

11     provided, that would undermine the combat readiness of the Army of

12     Yugoslavia.

13        Q.   Is that what you said?

14        A.   It would undermine the prescribed quantity of combat sets that

15     had been earmarked for the Army of Yugoslavia, which automatically meant

16     that it would threaten the combat readiness of the Army of Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   You've already discussed this issue, but we are dealing with the

18     period from 1994 onwards now.  This system of providing supplies to local

19     units from local sources, how did it work, and who would be involved in

20     the process of providing the army with supplies?

21        A.   Especially in the period following the imposition of sanctions on

22     Yugoslavia, the supplying of the VRS with ammunition with the involvement

23     of local authorities and local units was used increasingly.  They also

24     relied on sponsors.  Normally this would be carried out without the

25     knowledge of the Ministry of Defence, especially without the knowledge of

Page 12670

 1     the government, and sometimes even without the knowledge of the

 2     Main Staff.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to elicit comments

 4     from the witness on a number of Prosecution documents on these issues.

 5     Can we first call up P1259, please.

 6        Q.   This is the order of General Ratko Mladic dated the

 7     24th of October, 1993.

 8             General, I am interested in the first part of the document.  And

 9     can you tell us, Were you aware of what is stated here and what prompted

10     General Mladic to issue an order with such strict instructions?

11        A.   The reason that I'm familiar with behind such an order from

12     Ratko Mladic is the request that I put forward at the meeting of the

13     Supreme Command and the request put forward by the prime minister as well

14     as by other members of the Supreme Command.  As a result, the supreme

15     commander President Karadzic issued an order instructing General Mladic

16     to issue such an order which would be distributed to all the subordinate

17     units with a view to introducing order into the system of procurements.

18        Q.   Did you have information, as is stated in this order, that some

19     of the materiel and technical equipment ended up in the hands of the

20     enemy, as is said here, and led to certain individuals making an enormous

21     amount of money for themselves?  Do you know what the author meant by

22     this?

23        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this issue.  This was one of the painful

24     issues to me as an individual and a professional.  I could not accept in

25     any way that members of the VRS locally, as well as sponsors, should be

Page 12671

 1     selling weapons and ammunition to the opposite side.  This was an

 2     occurrence that was lethal to the VRS in which nobody wanted genuinely to

 3     dispense with.  And it was very detrimental.  There are individuals who

 4     are still wealthy thanks to the activities dating from that period.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up P1247, please.

 7        Q.   This is a document produced by General Djukic delivered to all

 8     units.  He invokes a response that came from the Chief of the

 9     General Staff of the VJ.

10             Sir, were you familiar with General Perisic's position regarding

11     the way the supplies came and went from the VJ?

12        A.   I was not in communication with General Perisic, but I got to

13     learn his position at Supreme Command meetings, normally through Karadzic

14     or through Mladic -- or, rather, only through Karadzic and Mladic.  I

15     cannot, myself, speak to this because I haven't read it.  Nevertheless,

16     as far as the Supreme Command meetings are concerned, as I said, I heard

17     that Perisic was trying to put a stop to this arbitrary waste and in

18     expenditure of army reserves at a local level as well as everywhere else.

19        Q.   The second sentence reads:

20             "This way of addressing is surprising, and it is especially

21     inconceivable that this process is brokered by some commanders and

22     commands of VJ units."

23             Djukic quotes Perisic as saying that.

24             Did you have any information indicating that this kind of

25     meddling was involved?

Page 12672

 1        A.   Yes, I learned that both from General Djukic and at

 2     Supreme Command meetings.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's move on to the next document.

 5     It's very much like this one.  This is P1802.

 6        Q.   I find this document interesting because of the date, July 1995.

 7     That's two years after the earlier document.  Midway down the page:

 8             "The commands from the corps level down, contrary to warnings and

 9     their attention being drawn to the damage caused" --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could counsel please read

11     this again slowly and provide a reference on where we can find this in

12     the actual document.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters are asking that could you please

14     read this again and provide a reference so that they could know where you

15     are reading from.  And read slowly.

16             And could we scroll up, please.  We don't see anything in the

17     English here except the heading really.  Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the English portion that is

19     relevant for my purposes is actually on the next page, Your Honours, what

20     I'm reading from.  Yes, it's right there at the top of the page.

21        Q.   "Certain commands from corps level down, contrary to warnings and

22     instructions about the damaging effect, have continued with the practice

23     of contacting directly, without authorisation, state organs,

24     institutions, companies, humanitarian organisations, and societies, and

25     individuals in the FRY, on behalf of the VRS," et cetera.

Page 12673

 1             My question:  General, did you know that the practice, as

 2     described in previous documents, continued?  When I say "practice," I

 3     mean ammunition was obtained but not at the level that was prescribed by

 4     previous documents, and, generally speaking, equipment in the FRY.

 5        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with the practice.  I've answered this question

 6     on two occasions already, saying that this practice and similar practices

 7     continued throughout the war.  I also said that this practice was

 8     particularly intensive after sanctions had been imposed against the FRY.

 9     The practice continued all the way up to the Dayton Peace Agreement.

10        Q.   What about VRS units, were they in a position to themselves

11     procure or purchase ammunition from special-purpose production lines and

12     factories in the FRY?  Could they do that, sir?

13        A.   I was receiving information indicating that local authorities and

14     local units from municipalities and donors from Republika Srpska were

15     able to purchase ammunition in a special-purpose production factories

16     across the FRY.  And they were also able to take all their purchases back

17     to units, normally those of brigade or battalion level within the VRS.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at P1234, an OTP

19     document.

20        Q.   What we see here is a document from the 1st Krajina Corps.  If we

21     turn to page 3, we'll see that it was signed by chief of the technical

22     services, Colonel Dragoljub Jankovic.  Nevertheless, what I want to be

23     looking at is page 1.  He was chief of the technical administration;

24     right?

25        A.   No, he was chief of the technical services in

Page 12674

 1     the 1st Krajina Corps.

 2        Q.   My mistake.  That's right.  We see that this is, if I may call it

 3     that, a report under sources from which different kinds of ammunition

 4     came to the 1st Krajina Corps.  The period is the 1st of January through

 5     the end of September 1994.  I would like to focus on entry number 4.

 6     Bullet 7.62.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Number 4, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hear you, Mr. Lukic.  I'm just asking that we

 9     zoom in on the English, please, at number 4.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in the B/C/S

11     for my benefit too.  Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll need to move the document to

13     the right in order to be able to follow what I'm reading and so that I

14     can have your comments, sir.

15        Q.   First of all, 7.62 bullet:  What weapon is that, and how

16     essential is this to the functioning of the VRS?

17        A.   Entry number 4 reads:

18             7.62 millimetre bullet AP, means automatic rifle, Kalashnikov

19     specifically, and PAP [as interpreted], meaning semi-automatic rifle.

20     Again, the calibre is 7.62.  That covered almost 99 per cent of the

21     weapons carried by actual soldiers and members of the VRS.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on.  We have this column - if we can move

23     the English - that reads, "Logistics Bases of the Main Staff."  The

24     figure there is 7.352.000.  What does that mean?

25        A.   The 1st Krajina Corps, following orders and dispositions,

Page 12675

 1     received or took delivery in these logistics bases of the VRS Main Staff

 2     a total of 7 billion 352 thousand bullets -- 7 million 352 thousand

 3     bullets.

 4        Q.   The next column is empty.  It reads, "Received from the RS."  And

 5     then next one reads, "Received from the FRY."  9.998.000 bullets.  Who in

 6     the FRY produced this ammunition?

 7        A.   The special-purpose factory known as Prvi Partizan.  It was based

 8     in the town of Uzice.

 9        Q.   Under the regulations of the FRY, do you know under whose

10     authority this special-purpose production actually was in the FRY?

11        A.   Those were state-owned companies.  Their military production

12     programme, special-purpose production, was under the defence ministry of

13     the FRY.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are done with this document.

16     Thank you.  I think this document will be easier to analyse later on,

17     having done this.  As far as this type of ammunition is concerned.

18             Next document, another OTP document -- or, rather, my mistake.

19     This is a 65 ter list document, a Defence document, 65 ter 02048D.

20        Q.   Have a close look slowly, General.

21        A.   Yes.  I understand this document.

22        Q.   Here, let me ask you:  It speaks for itself, doesn't it?  At

23     least as far as a number of issues are concerned, but some issues that

24     warrant a further clarification, if you ask me.  Why are they making sure

25     to preserve the casings, empty cartridges?  Why would they need to do

Page 12676

 1     that?

 2        A.   Empty cartridges can be used or re-used to produce new cartridges

 3     and new ammunition in the special-purpose production ammunition

 4     factories, be it in Republika Srpska or in Yugoslavia.

 5        Q.   Two references there:  Prvi Partizan and Fasau from Uzice.  Was

 6     that another company involved in a special-purpose production, and did it

 7     have the same status as Prvi Partizan?

 8        A.   I don't think Fasau enjoyed the same status.  I'm not familiar

 9     with their production, really.  I assume that they were the plant that

10     was busy processing or reprocessing these raw materials.

11        Q.   The document suggestions that a document was drawn up between

12     Republika Srpska and these two companies.  And now I'm asking you, Why is

13     this addressed the to defence ministry, and how is the defence ministry

14     involved in all of this?

15        A.   What we are looking at here is the government or the defence

16     ministry allocating to the Main Staff of the VRS certain funds, a certain

17     amount of funds to be used for this purpose.  And then the VRS Main Staff

18     was manned to purchase ammunition in Yugoslavia.  In order to be able to

19     do that, they had to inform the defence ministry, made sure they knew

20     about this business.  Secondly, the defence ministry was in charge of

21     issuing appropriate authorisations in order to make sure this could occur

22     in a purely financial sense and in order to make sure the goods cleared

23     the customs and police at the border, letting them know that the

24     ammunition was rightfully purchased in the FRY and should be allowed to

25     cross into another country's territory.

Page 12677

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we be granted a number for this

 2     document, Your Honours, please.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 4     please be given an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 6     Exhibit D410.  Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Leaving ammunition behind, let's move

 8     on to the issue of fuel that we have touched upon somewhat already.

 9             Your Honours, I would now have to address the Chamber.  And the

10     witness should perhaps leave the courtroom for a minute to address the

11     procedural situation we are now confronted with.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kovacevic, counsel requests that you give us a

13     minute.  We'll call you just now.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to go

16     through the statements and evidence of Mr. Djorde Djukic that was

17     admitted under Rule 92 quater as OTP evidence and also some other Defence

18     evidence pursuant to 92 quater.  In keeping with your guide-lines, I

19     would like to put to the witness some portions of Mr. Djukic's evidence

20     without letting him know whose evidence this is.  He wouldn't have

21     anything on his screen whereas you would have the relevant evidence

22     before you and would be able to follow the witness's answers.

23             Mr. Djukic had given several statements that were admitted into

24     evidence, and one of the topics involved is fuel.  There is another topic

25     that I would like to examine this witness on tomorrow.

Page 12678

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 2             MR. HARMON:  Am I to understand from counsel that these

 3     statements of General Djukic have not been shown to the witness in

 4     proofing?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I showed him portions of the evidence

 7     without telling him who the author was.  I merely asked him, Are you

 8     aware of this, did you know of this, and so on.  I kept strictly to the

 9     guide-lines we were given.

10             MR. HARMON:  Give me just one minute, please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have a minute.

12             MR. HARMON:  I'm trying to locate in the proofing note references

13     to this information, and I'm taking just a minute to make sure that I've

14     received it.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Take your time, Mr. Harmon.

16             MR. HARMON:  Why don't we proceed, Your Honour.  I'm not

17     successful in finding a reference to General Djukic.  I want to make

18     sure -- I may intervene at some point in time that this is beyond the

19     scope of the proofing notes that I have received, but ...

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the list of documents I sent him,

22     I informed Mr. Harmon that I would be using with this witness all the

23     statements of Mr. Djukic's that were admitted into evidence.

24             MR. HARMON:  I don't dispute that at all, Your Honour.  I'm just

25     trying to see in the proofing note if there's reference to those

Page 12679

 1     statements, not that I haven't been referred to the statements, I have.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I don't believe that I did

 3     include references in the proofing note.  It was just another document

 4     that I used with the witness.  And I informed Mr. Harmon of my intention

 5     to use the document with the witness.  I didn't think it necessary to

 6     include in the proofing note what it was that the witness told me in

 7     response to this document.  It was just a piece of evidence as any other.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you want to call your witness?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do so.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I suggest for Their Honours, while we

12     are waiting for the witness to be brought in, to call up, for the benefit

13     of Their Honours and, of course, not the witness himself, D397.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask, how is it going to come up on

15     our screens without coming up on his screen?

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I know that we have already used this

20     practice, so it's D397.  And what I'd like to refer the witness to is on

21     page 2 of 4 in B/C/S, and in English it's page 1 of 3.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do understand, though, that the transcript

Page 12680

 1     will stay in front of the witness?

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  You may proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the benefit of the Chamber and

 5     the OTP, what I will be reading starts in the bottom:

 6             "There are continuous requests ..."

 7             If you can find it, Your Honours.  This is the first portion I

 8     will read out for the witness.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, I will be reading out to you a statement given by

10     an individual, and I will ask you whether what you know on this issue

11     that we are discussing now, which is fuel that was at the disposal of the

12     VRS, whether what you remember of this issue is consistent with or not

13     consistent with what I will read out for you.

14             "There are continuous requests to the government for fuel, and

15     every month requests are sent three or four times.  Those requests are

16     sent to the people in the directorate for commodity reserves.  As far as

17     I remember, around 40.000 tonnes of fuel and between 1.000 and 1.200

18     tonnes of kerosene were found in the reserves in Republika Srpska, so

19     there were no problems regarding fuel provision until the beginning of

20     1995."

21             Let me stop here.

22             Based on the facts you know, is this an accurate representation

23     of the situation?

24        A.   I believe it is accurate.  And, in fact, I can state that with

25     certainty.

Page 12681

 1        Q.   The next portion I would like to refer you to is on the same

 2     page, Your Honours, the very bottom:

 3             [In English] "After one of those meetings, I talked to

 4     President Lukic" --

 5             [Interpretation] Let me read you this.  Let me read to you this:

 6             I talked to President Lukic, who told me that they had trading

 7     arrangements with the Croats and that he had met Jadranko Prlic regarding

 8     that issue.  He said he hoped that, thanks to his talks with the Croats,

 9     there would be no problems with fuel."

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then let's turn to the next page, a

11     few lines down.

12        Q.   "General Boric also told me that the meetings of the

13     representatives of the Government of Republika Srpska and Croatian

14     representatives were held in the village of Rujan, on the line of contact

15     in the Bosansko Grahovo municipality.  Apart from this, Boric told me

16     that, in addition to president Lukic, the talks were attended by the

17     minister of defence Dusan Kovacevic, minister of justice Jovo Rosic, and

18     probably someone from the directorate for commodity reserves.  I do not

19     think that all the above-mentioned persons went to all the meetings.

20             "Throughout this trade with Croats, as far as I know, 7.000 to

21     10.000 tonnes of fuel were procured, mostly diesel-2.  The fuel was

22     transported in tank trucks owned by private persons and companies from

23     the area of Republika Srpska."

24             General, do you agree with what is stated here?  Are the facts as

25     you know them consistent with what we have read out here about the

Page 12682

 1     procurement of fuel, let's call it that way?

 2        A.   It is true that I was involved in these talks with

 3     representatives of Herceg Bosna led by Jadranko Prlic.  It is true that

 4     we discussed other issues too, primarily the issue of a cease-fire along

 5     all the lines where the confronted parties were Croats and Serbs.  It is

 6     also true that it was stated at this meeting that President Karadzic and

 7     Mate Boban had agreed that this meeting should take place and that we,

 8     and by "we" I mean both sides, were there on their orders.

 9             It is true that it was agreed there that the Army of

10     Republika Srpska should turn over to the Croatian side -- should turn

11     ammunition over to the Croatian side and that the Croatian side should,

12     in turn, procure the VRS with fuel.

13        Q.   Who was or who is Jadranko Prlic, I mean, what was his function

14     at the time?

15        A.   He was the prime minister of Herceg Bosna, headquartered in

16     Mostar.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to read another portion,

18     Your Honours, in the middle of this large paragraph:

19             "I know that fuel was taken to split."

20             If you can see that.

21        Q.   General, please listen what I will read out.  And then I will ask

22     you for your comments.

23             "I know that the the fuel was taken in Split.  Our tank trucks

24     went with civilian registration plates of Republika Srpska.  There were

25     usually around 15 tank trucks in each convoy so that a single convoy

Page 12683

 1     could transport 250 to 300 tonnes of fuel.  There were no major problems

 2     during the transport except for slight traffic accidents.  In this way,

 3     the fuel was delivered to Banja Luka into the commodity reserves

 4     warehouse and to Bileca and Bijeljina and some small quantities to Pale.

 5     The trade lasted around a year and a half, in the period from mid-1993

 6     until the end of 1994."

 7             General, does what you remember of this tally with what I've read

 8     out?

 9        A.   In principle, it does.  But can I give you an explanation?

10        Q.   Is it that you disagree with something, or would you like to add

11     something?

12        A.   I would like to explain how I came to know about this.

13        Q.   Go ahead.

14        A.   The quantity that was taken out of the general area of Split is

15     something that I was familiar with.  It was just under a hundred tank

16     trucks.  It was a very long convoy.  This was the largest quantity of

17     fuel ever to have been shipped in one convoy from the area of Split to

18     the territory of Republika Srpska.  It is correct - and I had information

19     to that effect, although the information never came from official

20     sources - that the Army of Republika Srpska often purchased fuel from the

21     Croatian side.  And most often that this happened locally, at local

22     levels.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I don't want to go beyond

24     our time, but I would like to just put one more question.  And if we

25     could go into private session for that, Your Honours.

Page 12684

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12685

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

 5             And once again, Mr. Kovacevic, just to remind you that we are now

 6     going to take a break until tomorrow morning at 9.00, and you are not

 7     supposed to discuss the case with anybody during the break until you are

 8     excused from testifying.

 9             The Court stands adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning,

10     Courtroom II.

11             Court adjourned.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of

15                           July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.