Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12759

 1                           Thursday, 15 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.14 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar, please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances,

12     starting with the Prosecution, please.

13             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, counsel.

14     Good morning everyone in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon and Laurent

15     Vuillemin for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And as for the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.  General Perisic is

19     represented today by Novak Lukic, Tina Drolec, Alex Fielding, and

20     Oonagh O'Connor.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.

22             Good morning to you, Mr. Kovacevic.  Just to remind you again

23     that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of

24     your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but

25     the truth.

Page 12760

 1             Mr. Lukic.

 2                           WITNESS:  DUSAN KOVACEVIC [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:  [Continued]

 5        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, I do not have many questions left.  I wish us to

 6     cover several topics.  You have already testified to this issue, but it

 7     seems to have been touched upon only in passing.  Based on your knowledge

 8     and information you had, what sort of relationship existed between

 9     President Karadzic and General Mladic during the war?

10        A.   For the most part they clashed over differing concepts and what

11     prevailed most of all was their personal resentment one of another.

12        Q.   Can you tell us what sort of relationship existed between

13     President Milosevic and the FRY leadership or, rather, what was there

14     attitude to this sort of relationship between Karadzic and Mladic?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I don't understand that question.  Unless

16     you are misinterpreted, Mr. Lukic.  You are saying can you tell what sort

17     of relationship existed between President Milosevic and the FRY

18     leadership or, rather, was there attitude to this sort of relationship

19     between Karadzic and Mladic.  I'm not sure what is being asked there.

20     Can you rephrase.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   If you know, President Milosevic and the FRY leadership, did they

23     play any sort of role or what was their attitude towards the relationship

24     between Karadzic and Mladic?

25        A.   To my knowledge they did not have any role to play in that or

Page 12761

 1     influence.

 2        Q.   Let us move on to another topic.  General, do you recall the 50th

 3     session of the National Assembly of Republika Srpska as meaningful in any

 4     way?

 5        A.   I do recall several sessions.  What I recall from this particular

 6     session is quite a few items on the agenda and the developments

 7     surrounding them.

 8        Q.   Do you know if General Mladic reported on the state of affairs in

 9     the VRS at any of the sessions, and do you recall what sort of

10     information this was?

11        A.   I do know that General Mladic himself reported to the National

12     Assembly of the RS about the problems existing within the VRS,

13     particularly those concerning materiel supplies, in particular supplies

14     of ammunition and fuel as well as some other assets.

15        Q.   Do you recall what sort of reaction these reports of his prompted

16     on the part of the National Assembly, if any?

17        A.   Almost always most of the deputies felt that the requests were

18     exaggerated, that Republika Srpska was unable to meet them, and that the

19     VRS ought to take a more reasonable stance in that regard.

20        Q.   Can you tell us what the collegium of the defence minister was

21     and who composed this body?

22        A.   It was composed of the defence minister, deputy minister,

23     ministry secretary, and assistant ministers.

24        Q.   Did the collegium discuss Mladic's reports intended for the

25     Assembly concerning the requests from the army?

Page 12762

 1        A.   Yes, always or almost always.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up P312.  We would

 3     like the witness to have a look at a Prosecution document.  42 is the

 4     page in B/C/S, and 51 in English.  These are minutes from the 50th

 5     session of the RS National Assembly, 15th and 16th of April, 1995, in

 6     Sanski Most.  I'd like to direct you to page 42 in B/C/S and 51 in

 7     English.  What I'd like to show the witness is paragraph 2 in English.

 8        Q.   General, this is General Mladic's intervention at this Assembly

 9     session and he says, among other things, the following:

10             "As an illustration, I will compare data of the consumption of

11     certain types of materiel according to source from the beginning of the

12     war up until 31st of December, 1994, with the needs for 1995 and the

13     current situation.  The total infantry ammunition consumed since the

14     beginning of the war to date amounts to 9.185 tonnes, and of this, 1.49

15     per cent was secured from our own production, 42.2 per cent from materiel

16     reserves that we inherited, that we pulled out of the enclaves or found

17     in the barracks of the former army, 47.2 per cent from the aid from the

18     Army of Yugoslavia, and 9.11 per cent was imported, i.e., bought."

19             General, based on the information you had concerning the state of

20     affairs when it came to reserves and the procurement of this sort of

21     materiel and technical equipment, is the data presented herein by

22     General Mladic correct?

23        A.   I do recall that at the minister's collegium we discussed these

24     figures presented in General Mladic's report.  However, the information

25     we had was altogether different.  We did not have occasion to present the

Page 12763

 1     information we had to General Mladic so that he may be able to take them

 2     into consideration and possibly include them in his report.  Therefore,

 3     the figures shown here originate solely from the Main Staff without the

 4     participation of any outside body including the Ministry of Defence,

 5     which was improper.

 6        Q.   What prompts you to say that the information presented here is

 7     inaccurate or differs from the figures you had?

 8        A.   We had information to the effect that a far larger amount of

 9     assets had been produced in the RS.  We also had information indicating

10     that a far greater quantity of goods had been imported.  Having been the

11     ones who paid for them, we had accurate information about it.  We also

12     had figures indicating the quantities held in the reserves belonging to

13     the former JNA, and we also had figures about the amount of proceeds from

14     the purchases done by municipalities and local authorities.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have now page 43 in B/C/S and

16     52 in English, please.  Your Honour, I will be reading paragraph 2 and it

17     is simply the continuation of General Mladic's address.

18        Q.   I'm quoting General Mladic's words, General.

19             "At the same time, it is impossible to avoid the duplication of

20     rations in some units and permanent shortages in the case of others.

21     Because of a lack of information, technical service organs constantly

22     come up against problems in resolving the requests of units for

23     replenishment with materiel supplies.  Municipal government organs, work

24     organisations in the RS, not to mention donors outside the republic, are

25     not obliged to inform the Main Staff of the donations made to the army.

Page 12764

 1     It is indicative that both the donors and recipients respond to requests

 2     to submit regular reports on received materiel supplies reluctantly and

 3     incompletely."  End of quote.

 4             Does what General Mladic say here tally with the information you

 5     had concerning the reserves and the reporting about the reserves?

 6        A.   Yes, I fully agree with this.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 59 in B/C/S and

 8     71 in English.  This is Minister Ninkovic taking the floor at this

 9     Assembly session.  I'll read from the start, Your Honours.  Can we scroll

10     down in B/C/S, thank you.  And then we'll have to move on to the next

11     page in the B/C/S.

12        Q.   Ninkovic says:

13             "Presidents, ladies and gentlemen, I've heard for the second time

14     now the integral exposé of General Mladic, which was comprehensive, but

15     in the opinion of the inner collegium of the ministry, in our view, this

16     report or brief does not meet the requirements the National Assembly has

17     laid out so far, especially since its 35th session.  In his intervention,

18     the General has discussed some issues which are more of a state and

19     political nature, which will certainly be judged by the deputies and

20     other politicians.

21             However, we believe that some of the substantial aspects of the

22     problem were not covered.  For instance, we believe that some of the data

23     presented in this report should first have been harmonised, and we

24     believe that the Ministry of Defence should have harmonised them together

25     with the Main Staff, especially when it came to the fuel and ammunition

Page 12765

 1     supplies to the army, the engagement of human resources for the needs of

 2     the army, for the needs of the economy, and its running."

 3             The information relayed by Mr. Ninkovic as reflected in this

 4     minutes, are they consistent with what you knew at the time?

 5        A.   Yes, they do.  They are consistent.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] B/C/S page 61, as two further

 7     entries, brief ones, page 73 in the English text.  This is Branko Simic's

 8     contribution.  I will be using the second part of the first paragraph,

 9     but before I go on --

10        Q.   Witness, who was Branko Simic and what was his position at the

11     time?

12        A.   I remember that he was a deputy who hailed from a predominantly

13     Serbian area in the Neretva river valley, Herzegovina.  He was also the

14     secretary of the People's Assembly.

15        Q.   In your view given his position at the time, did he have

16     sufficient information on the army's materiel resources?

17        A.   Yes, he did.

18        Q.   The second part of the first paragraph:

19             "Another thing, General, in this very serious statement you

20     yourself admitted that you had no insight into the materiel supplies of

21     the Serbian army.  To make such assessments without insight is, to my

22     mind, incorrect, to say the least.  You should visit the Serbian

23     municipalities.  I'm there every day, certainly with regard to this

24     treatment, I could not do that, and see the sums the Serbian people are

25     giving through the municipalities for the Serbian army."

Page 12766

 1             Sir, do you know what he meant by that?

 2        A.   Information was made available to him by other deputies from

 3     other municipalities.  Information regarding the amount of funds

 4     earmarked by all these municipalities to meet the army's needs, and also

 5     regarding to what extent the companies throughout those municipalities,

 6     state-owned as well as privately-owned ones, were earmarking their own

 7     funds for the benefit of the army.

 8        Q.   Did they have a commitment to inform the Main Staff about all

 9     these funds being earmarked and used for the army's benefit at a local

10     level?

11        A.   Yes, there was a commitment, but I don't think they actually

12     complied.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 81 B/C/S, page 96 in the

14     English.  President Karadzic's words, my final entry.  The B/C/S page is

15     not correct.  81, 81.  That's right.

16        Q.   I won't be reading this out loud.  Read it for yourself, General,

17     the one in the middle, the paragraph:  "I must first say a few words

18     about General Mladic's contribution."

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You can see that paragraph and that's

20     the paragraph that I'm drawing the witness's attention to.

21        Q.   My question about this paragraph and the words of

22     President Karadzic is this:  At the time, the spring of 1995, what was

23     the relationship between Mladic and Karadzic, their mutual relationship?

24        A.   Relations were quite tense between the two.  At Supreme Command

25     meetings Karadzic demanded that General Mladic be dismissed or removed

Page 12767

 1     from his position.

 2        Q.   Was a decision taken in that regard and was that proposal

 3     accepted?  And if not, why not?

 4        A.   It was never accepted.  Karadzic never provided sufficiently

 5     compelling reasoning for this demand, nor was there ever an assessment of

 6     what the ramifications might be of General Mladic's dismissal.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to move on to P1071.

 9     The minutes of this same meeting.

10        Q.   These are minutes that we see here taken at the 15th meeting in

11     Sanski Most.  We have the agenda there as well as the conclusions.  Can

12     we please comment on conclusion number 5.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] B/C/S page 4, English page 3.

14        Q.   Read it for yourself, General, please, conclusion number 5.

15     General, following this Assembly meeting, did President Karadzic at any

16     point in time change General Mladic's post or have him dismissed for

17     awhile?  Did he do anything about that?

18        A.   Yes, I am aware of what happened.  President Karadzic had

19     General Mladic replaced and removed from his post as commander of the

20     Main Staff of the VRS.  He appointed him his own personal advisor.

21     Mladic nevertheless opposed this change.  I don't know when and if he

22     actually took up this position that he was newly appointed to.

23        Q.   Thank you very much, General.  I'm moving on to my last and final

24     subject, your retirement.  I would like to discuss that a little.

25             On the first day we went through your CV and I think your formal

Page 12768

 1     retirement came in January 1996.  Who informed you of your retirement?

 2     Did you speak to anyone about that?

 3        A.   The first time I heard anything was from the personnel

 4     administration of the Main Staff of the VRS.  I was summoned to the

 5     personnel administration of the General Staff of the VJ on such and such

 6     a date.  The summons was served me and I signed it off.  When the day

 7     came, I reported to the personnel administration building in Belgrade to

 8     speak to General Matovic.  At one point in time, General Perisic turned

 9     up.  He informed General Subotic and me that the Supreme Defence Council

10     had decided to retire both of us.  He also said that the boss, Milosevic,

11     President Milosevic, was the person behind that decision.

12             He also said something like, please don't oppose this.  Don't

13     stand up to it, don't speak out because you might suffer negative

14     consequences if you do.

15        Q.   Thank you very much.  How did you interpret this phrase "negative

16     consequences"?

17        A.   Both General Subotic and I drew the following conclusion:  No

18     good would come of this.  We both got an early retirement which in a way

19     was brusque.  We had never been told about it and we both felt as though

20     we'd been kicked out of the army.  At the time it wasn't unthinkable that

21     we might suffer both physical and status-related consequences as well as

22     other kinds.

23             Personally, I never reacted or spoke out against this, although I

24     was in fact extremely unhappy.

25        Q.   Did you ever hear of any cases of physical or status-related

Page 12769

 1     consequences inflicted upon persons who spoke out and who put in a

 2     reaction?

 3        A.   No, I am not aware of any such cases but the prevailing mood was

 4     to not put in any kind of reaction when decisions like that were made at

 5     your expense.

 6        Q.   Following this conversation, did you perhaps have a chance to

 7     raise this with Karadzic?  Did you get to know more about the

 8     circumstances of your retirement from perhaps a different source?

 9        A.   Indeed.  I spoke to President Karadzic about this.  I expressed

10     my discontent.  I put it to him loud and clear I was unhappy because I

11     had been retired without any reason being stated to me and I still needed

12     five years of full service.  Because of the missing five years, my

13     pension was now much smaller than it otherwise would have been.  He

14     responded that the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party was

15     reluctant to keep me on in the defence system, or flat out refused to

16     keep me on.  He also said that General Mladic was not willing to take me

17     on board the Main Staff of the VRS, although there was a vacancy there

18     for a general which I was professionally perfectly qualified to fill.

19     And General Djukic was there, he said you'll just be around here with us,

20     we shall be requiring your services.  You will stay on as a member of the

21     government.  In actual fact, I became none of those things that they

22     mentioned.

23        Q.   Did you later on receive any other official decisions on your

24     retirement following the presidential decree?

25        A.   Yes, I received a decree on my retirement in the VRS signed by

Page 12770

 1     Radovan Karadzic, the then president.

 2        Q.   Do you still keep a copy of that decree?

 3        A.   Yes, as a matter of fact I do.

 4        Q.   Where do you keep it?

 5        A.   It's in my flat in Belgrade.

 6        Q.   When did you inform General Perisic's Defence of this, the decree

 7     and your retirement signed by Karadzic?

 8        A.   Yes, I told you once when we spoke.

 9        Q.   When you say once, I would like to know, was it here in The Hague

10     or earlier on when we met elsewhere?

11        A.   It was earlier on when we met elsewhere.

12        Q.   Did you receive any other copies of official decisions regarding

13     your retirement?

14        A.   Yes, I got one from the personnel administration.

15        Q.   No, you said that already.  I'm sorry to interrupt, but did you

16     perhaps find out about any other decision on your retirement by a third

17     person?

18        A.   Indeed I did.  When Biljana Plavsic took up her position as

19     president of Republika Srpska, they read her decree in the evening news

20     on television, a decree on the retirement of quite a large number of VRS

21     generals.  The list included my name and rank making this the third time

22     I was being retired by someone different.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] General, this concludes my

24     examination.  I thank you for your answers.  Your Honours, this completes

25     my examination.

Page 12771

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 2             Mr. Harmon.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I would request a brief adjournment.

 4     My case manager called in ill this morning and I just need to ensure

 5     before I start my examination that my exhibits are in order and they've

 6     all been uploaded, so if I could have a brief adjournment until the

 7     normal time of reconvening, I think I can resolve any questions I have.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We'll take a break and come back at quarter

 9     to 11.00.  Court adjourned.

10                           --- Recess taken at 9.50 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

13             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour.  Before I begin my

14     cross-examination, I would just like to regulate this one exhibit.  It is

15     P2783.  The wrong details have been uploaded into P2783 and I would

16     request that the correct details for that exhibit, which are found in 65

17     ter 09567C be uploaded into the exhibit number.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  That is done.

19             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon:

21        Q.   Sir, good morning.  My name is Mark Harmon.  I'm a Prosecutor for

22     the Office of the Prosecution, and I will be cross-examining you today

23     and possibly tomorrow.

24             This morning you spoke about General Mladic's retirement.  You

25     discussed what happened to him in the rupture between he and

Page 12772

 1     President Karadzic, and you said that General Mladic was sought to be

 2     moved to a different position by President Karadzic.  What was the

 3     reaction to President Karadzic's efforts to move General Mladic to a

 4     different position?  Remove him from being the chief of the VRS Main

 5     Staff.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Whose reaction?

 7             MR. HARMON:  I am sorry.

 8        Q.   What was the reaction of the other generals in the VRS to

 9     President Karadzic's efforts to remove General Mladic as chief of the VRS

10     Main Staff?

11        A.   Based on what I know, General Milovanovic was offered Mladic's

12     position and he refused the offer.  Most, or rather, all of the generals

13     were against General Mladic's removal.

14        Q.   Did the other generals sign a document in support of

15     General Mladic?

16        A.   I know that a list circulated of those who were in support of

17     Mladic and others in support of Karadzic.  I know that some generals

18     signed a list, and I personally refused to sign anything in favour of

19     anyone.

20        Q.   So you did not sign a list in favour of General Mladic?

21        A.   That's right.  I didn't sign either the list for General Mladic

22     or the one for Karadzic.

23        Q.   Do you know what other VRS generals did not sign the list in

24     support of General Mladic?

25        A.   I only heard that some generals were against General Mladic, but

Page 12773

 1     I myself did not see any sort of a list that would have been signed by

 2     these generals.

 3        Q.   What position did President Karadzic attempt to move

 4     General Mladic into after he was to be relieved as chief of the VRS Main

 5     Staff?  You mentioned the advisor to the president, did I understand that

 6     correctly?

 7        A.   President Karadzic issued a decree removing General Mladic.

 8     Based on this decree, Mladic was appointed advisor to the president of

 9     the republic and supreme commander.

10        Q.   Did he assume that position?

11        A.   I don't know that he ever held that position.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just interrupt a little bit.  There is

13     something that I would like to clear here.

14             Sir, at page 14, line 9, you said based on what you know

15     General Milovanovic was offered Mladic's position and he refused the

16     offer.  You then went on to say, most or rather all of the generals were

17     against General Mladic's removal.  Now, at line 23 you say "I only heard

18     that some generals were against General Mladic, but I myself did not see

19     any sort of a list that would have been signed by these generals."  I

20     would like you to reconcile these two answers because you on the one hand

21     you say all generals were against, on the other you say you heard of some

22     generals who were against Mladic but you didn't see a list.  Can you just

23     resolve that because -- what was the actual correct position?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I know is that when Karadzic

25     issued a decree removing Mladic, there ensued arrests on both sides.

Page 12774

 1     Mladic arrested the generals who did not support him, whereas Karadzic

 2     arrested the ministers, specifically the Defence Minister Ninkovic.  And

 3     I know that Mladic had General Dragomir Milosevic arrested because he

 4     failed to support him and failed to sign the list in support of

 5     General Mladic.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the correct position is that not all generals

 7     supported Mladic?  There were those who were against him, e.g.,

 8     Dragomir Milosevic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

11             MR. HARMON:

12        Q.   And can you tell us how long General Mladic remained chief of the

13     VRS Main Staff after that apparent rupture?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In order to have no confusion, the

16     interpretation was that of a Chief of the Main Staff, whereas Mr. Harmon

17     said commander of the Main Staff.  I suppose that my learned friend

18     Mr. Harmon wanted to know how long he remained in position of the

19     commander of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska.

20             MR. HARMON:  That's correct.

21        Q.   Can you answer that question, sir?

22        A.   Despite President Karadzic's decree on the removal of

23     General Mladic, General Mladic remained in the position of the commander

24     of the Main Staff of the VRS up until Biljana Plavsic took up the

25     position of the president of Republika Srpska, at which point she issued

Page 12775

 1     a decree on the retirement of General Mladic.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us what year that was?

 3        A.   I believe it was early 1996, or a bit later.  There is a precise

 4     date recorded somewhere, I'm sure.  I don't know it.

 5        Q.   Now, this morning you talked about your termination in the VRS.

 6     You talked about earlier your service in the VRS.  You gave us a lengthy

 7     description of your duties and responsibilities.  Can you tell me what

 8     remuneration you received from the Republika Srpska for your services in

 9     the VRS?

10        A.   I was receiving my salary through the accounting centre of the

11     Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia pursuant to a

12     decision on my status in keeping with the decision of the Supreme Defence

13     Council of Yugoslavia.

14        Q.   Sir, my question was what remuneration did you receive from the

15     VRS in respect of your service in the VRS?

16        A.   I did not receive any remuneration from the Army of Republika

17     Srpska.

18        Q.   And so you neither received any pay.  Did you receive a pension

19     at all from the Republika Srpska for your service in the VRS?

20        A.   I received my pension from the pension fund of the

21     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia based on the fact that most of my years of

22     service hailed from the time of the former JNA.

23        Q.   Now, yesterday and throughout your testimony at various parts you

24     testified about the Pretis factory in Vogosca.  You were quite familiar

25     with that factory, were you not?

Page 12776

 1        A.   Yes, I was quite familiar with it, especially before the war.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And you mentioned the director of the factory, Mr. Motika.

 3     Can you tell me who Radomir Ecimovic was and what his relationship was in

 4     the Pretis factory?

 5        A.   I know Ecimovic from the contacts I had; however, I don't know

 6     what his position in the Pretis factory was.

 7        Q.   Did he hold a high position in the Pretis factory?

 8        A.   I think that he was in charge of a production line, one

 9     production line.

10        Q.   If I were to put to you that he was the technical director of

11     Pretis, would you agree with me or disagree with me?

12        A.   It is possible.  I'm not sure, but I agree if that's what you say

13     he was.

14        Q.   Do you you know what his duties and responsibilities were at

15     Pretis?  If you don't, you can tell us.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, the earlier answer was in the

18     realm of speculation and what can be obtained further from the witness is

19     more speculation.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

21             MR. HARMON:  Fine, Your Honour.  Then let me -- that's fine, Your

22     Honour.  It's been covered.

23        Q.   You say you knew Mr. Ecimovic, sir.  Was he a member of the 30th

24     Personnel Centre of the VJ?

25        A.   I really don't know that.

Page 12777

 1        Q.   Okay.  We'll come back to this a little bit later.

 2             MR. HARMON:  I'd like to go into private session first of all,

 3     Your Honour.  I have some questions I want to ask.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12778











11 Pages 12778-12784 redacted. Private session.















Page 12785

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 6             MR. HARMON:

 7        Q.   Yesterday, sir, you testified about the consequences of the

 8     fallout resulting to you as a result of the rejection of the Contact

 9     Group plan.  That testimony is found at pages 12739 and goes through

10     12741.  Now, sir, the consequence --

11             MR. HARMON:  Actually, could I have -- first of all, could I have

12     P222 on the monitor.

13        Q.   Sir, this in front of you is an Article from "The Borba Daily"

14     dated the 5th of August, 1994.  And do you see the Article that is

15     captioned or entitled "Federal Government Decides to Cut Political and

16     Economic Ties with Republika Srpska.  Border on Drina Closed."  Do you

17     see that?

18        A.   Yes, I see that.

19        Q.   Now, sir, the border was closed according to this article, and I

20     want your confirmation of it, was closed to the political figures, this

21     banishment applied to political and governmental leaders only; isn't that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Nevertheless, also correct is what I said

24     in relation to myself, the ban applied to me.

25        Q.   But you were in a position of the minister of the government at

Page 12786

 1     the time this ban was imposed; am I right on that, sir?

 2        A.   By this time I had been removed from that position already.

 3        Q.   So you were then a deputy minister of the government, if I

 4     understood your testimony yesterday?

 5        A.   Yes, that's right.

 6        Q.   So this political ban on political leaders, how long did that

 7     last?

 8        A.   I don't know exactly.  Several months.

 9        Q.   So several months after the 5th of August, 1994, the political

10     leaders of the Republika Srpska were permitted to go back into the FRY;

11     do I understand that correctly?

12        A.   Yes, that's right.

13        Q.   Now, this consequence, this border being closed to the political

14     leadership did not apply to the military, to the VRS leaders, did it?

15        A.   What I know is that it applied to General Mladic and a number of

16     generals from the VRS Main Staff.

17        Q.   Okay.  So that is somewhat in contradiction to what you told us

18     earlier in your evidence, and it's in contradiction to this article,

19     isn't it?

20        A.   As I said earlier on --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon is referring to the

23     article.  I think the witness should be given a chance to read the

24     article in which case we should zoom in because the letters in the B/C/S

25     copy are very small.  Or perhaps Mr. Harmon can refer to something

Page 12787

 1     specific in the article as long as he is invoking it.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour.  I am referring to the central

 4     paragraph in the middle of the page that reads as follows:

 5             "Belgrade - The federal government took the decision in a meeting

 6     yesterday to cut all political and economic ties with the Republika

 7     Srpska.  A statement issued after the meeting said:

 8             'The Republika Srpska leadership by rejecting peace, has

 9     committed the worst act against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the

10     Serbian and Montenegrin people, and all other citizens in these

11     territories.  Therefore, the federal government has decided to:  Cut

12     political and economic ties with the Republika Srpska; ban Republika

13     Srpska top officials (Assembly, Presidency, government) from FRY

14     territory; the FRY border is closed for all shipments into Republika

15     Srpska except food, clothes, and medicine.'"

16        Q.   So, again, sir, there is no reference in this article, nor in

17     this statement issued by the FRY that VRS generals or military

18     personalities would be banned from entering the FRY territory, is there?

19        A.   What I know is that the ban certainly applied to me, as I

20     explained.  If you so require, I can provide further details.  My

21     photograph wearing a uniform at a border crossing was pinned on to the

22     wall at the border crossing itself, the police station there.  Whenever a

23     police officer sent me back, he would always tell me that there was yet

24     another list that was not available containing the names of other

25     persons, members, and even some generals of the VRS.  I never saw the

Page 12788

 1     list myself.  Nevertheless, the police officers told me that

 2     General Mladic was in fact on that list.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Okay.  Could we have Prosecution Exhibit 2819 on the

 4     monitor, please.

 5        Q.   Sir, I'd like you to review this document and I'll give you an

 6     opportunity to review it and we'll go to the next page in your language,

 7     just let me know when you have finished reviewing the first page.

 8             MR. HARMON:  Can we go to the next page if there is a second page

 9     in the B/C/S so that the witness can review it.  Thank you.  And could we

10     go to the second page in the English as well.

11        Q.   Have you had a chance to finish reviewing it, sir?  That calls

12     for a "yes" or "no" and no explanation.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  This is a document dated the 12th of August, 1994, and

15     it's from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps intelligence and security

16     section and it is being disseminated to subordinate units.  The topic on

17     this is fighting the rumours on upset relations between the VJ and the

18     VRS first sentence reads:

19             "After the unilateral suspension of the political and economic

20     relations of the SRJ and the RS, we have registered frequent rumours and

21     misinformation on the alleged suspension of relations of the VJ with the

22     VRS of which you have also reported."

23             MR. HARMON:  Could we go back to the first page of each of those

24     documents while I read.  I'm reading from the first page.

25        Q.   Now, further down in that first page it says:

Page 12789

 1             "On the contrary, the relations between the VRS and the VJ are

 2     still correct and have not been upset by the suspension of political and

 3     economic relations with the SRJ and the RS."

 4             You see that, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Can you comment on that paragraph I just read?

 7        A.   I've never seen this document before and I'm now familiarising

 8     myself with its substance.  It is conceivable that this document was

 9     delivered to the subordinate units of the 1st Krajina Corps.

10     Nevertheless, all of this is information recorded by the security organ

11     of the 1st Krajina Corps.  The corps commander is not there, the VRS Main

12     Staff is not there.  It is conceivable that a document like this was

13     drawn up, its substance being what it is, and subsequently sent down the

14     chain of command to the units.

15        Q.   In fact, relations between the VJ and the VRS remained quite

16     robust during that period of time, didn't they, sir?

17        A.   This is merely a conclusion by the security organ, signing this

18     document.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MR. HARMON:  Could we go into private session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

22     [Private session]         [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber] 

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

24             MR. HARMON:  Could I --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

Page 12790

 1             MR. HARMON:  Could I have P2783 on the monitor, please.  I'm

 2     interested in English page 1 and B/C/S page 1.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Sir, this is from General Mladic's diary, you've seen

 4     excerpts from it previously.  This reflects a meeting in Belgrade on the

 5     24th of January, 1995, where General Mladic was present with the Supreme

 6     Defence Council of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  You see that,

 7     sir?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9             MR. HARMON:  Could we go to English page 5 and B/C/S page 5 of

10     this exhibit.

11        Q.   Sir, this is an entry in General Mladic's diary dated the 16th of

12     February, 1995, and it reflects a meeting with General Mladic,

13     President Lilic, Milosevic, Bulatovic, and Perisic.  You see that?

14        A.   Yes, I see that.

15        Q.   Okay.  And Lilic, Milosevic, and Bulatovic were members of the

16     Supreme Defence Council of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; correct?

17        A.   That's right.

18             MR. HARMON:  Could we turn to page 6 in English and page 6 in

19     B/C/S.

20        Q.   Sir, I direct your attention to the entry of the 3rd of March,

21     1995, where General Mladic meets with President MS.  Do you know what MS

22     stands for?

23        A.   I am not sure really.  It can mean several things.  But it's

24     possible that it stands for Milosevic, Slobodan, or something like that.

25        Q.   All right, sir, thank you.

Page 12791

 1             MR. HARMON:  Let's go to page 8 of the English and page 8 of the

 2     B/C/S.

 3        Q.   Sir, there do you see the diary entry dated the 6th of April,

 4     1995, a meeting with General Perisic and J. Stanisic?

 5        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 6        Q.   And also present, as you note, on the first line, General Gvero

 7     was present as well as General Mladic.  Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9             MR. HARMON:  Let's turn to page 10 English and page 10 B/C/S.

10        Q.   Now, this is a -- sir, this is an entry of the 30th of June,

11     1995.  It's General Mladic recording a meeting with President Milosevic

12     and the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army.  Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14             MR. HARMON:  And lastly in this document, if we could go to page

15     17 of the English and page 17 of the B/C/S.

16        Q.   General Mladic in this entry, sir, records a meeting that he had

17     with President Milosevic and General Perisic on the 24th of July, 1995.

18     Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   Just before I move from this entry, this is an entry that was

21     made shortly after the fall of the Srebrenica enclave; isn't that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   And Slobodan Milosevic is recorded as saying "Srebrenica and Zepa

25     have damaged us greatly.  You must have political dimension in the post

Page 12792

 1     of commander of the army.  I wanted to prove to everyone that you are a

 2     serious man."  So Srebrenica at this particular meeting was discussed;

 3     correct?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since these questions go beyond the

 6     scope of my direct examination, the Prosecution should put their case to

 7     the witness in keeping with the rules and why they would like these

 8     questions answered.

 9             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm happy to withdraw the question.

10     This diary entry speaks for itself.

11        Q.   My next question, sir, is -- in fact I'll return to an earlier

12     question.  The relations between the VJ, between General Perisic and

13     General Mladic and other members of the VRS remained quite robust, didn't

14     they?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can Mr. Harmon be more precise in his

17     terminology, what does it mean quite robust?  And this was interpreted

18     with three different words in the B/C/S, and I understand the difficulty

19     the interpreters are in.  I would like Mr. Harmon to be more precise.

20             MR. HARMON:  I'll be glad to be more precise.

21        Q.   Following the banishment of political leaders from the FRY, the

22     relationship -- I put to you, sir, the relationship between

23     General Mladic and the military authorities, including General Perisic,

24     in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were not affected by the fallout

25     from the rejection of the Contact Group plan; correct?

Page 12793

 1        A.   I really cannot draw any conclusions about the personal relations

 2     between General Perisic and General Mladic.  Only those who were present

 3     during their meetings could pass such a judgement.  What I do know is

 4     that General Mladic very often expressed his anger at General Perisic.

 5     He even looked down on him somewhat, and he said that Mladic ought to be

 6     the commander of the VRS and no one else.

 7             But I can't be more precise than that since I did not have either

 8     the required contacts or the required insight into the relations.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, let me further explore with you your answers in your

10     testimony about the fallout from the rejection of the Contact Group plan,

11     and specifically focusing, sir, on the fallout to you personally.

12             At 12740, lines 10 through 16, you testified that measures had

13     been taken against you, and quote, "that you could not visit my family in

14     Belgrade and that the ban lasted until the end of the war."  Do you

15     remember that testimony, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I remember that.

17        Q.   In fact, sir, between the imposition of the ban on your entry

18     into the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the end of the war, you did,

19     in fact, enter the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and you did, in fact,

20     visit your family, didn't you?

21        A.   Yes, that's right.

22        Q.   So then let's focus on what's right.  Tell me the number of times

23     and the circumstances in which you visited your family between the

24     imposition of this ban and the end of the war?

25        A.   I was told that I can enter Yugoslavia only on the approval of

Page 12794

 1     Jovica Stanisic, the then boss of the state security service.  Every time

 2     I wanted to enter Yugoslavia, I had to dial the telephone number of his

 3     office, announce my visit, and then have Jovica Stanisic personally give

 4     me the permission or deny it.  When he granted me permission once, he

 5     said that at a certain border crossing, there would be a man from state

 6     security waiting for me and who would then escort me to my flat.

 7             And that's how things happened.  I was always monitored by that

 8     individual from state security at all times while I was visiting my

 9     family and up until the point I left the territory of Yugoslavia.  That

10     was the only safe passage that I had in the territory of Yugoslavia.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of precision, at page

13     35, line 23 and 25 it should read Jovica Stanisic.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic, yes.

15             MR. HARMON:

16        Q.   For the record, who is Jovica Stanisic, sir?

17        A.   Jovica Stanisic was the head of state security of the Republic of

18     Serbia.

19        Q.   Sir, and how many times did you visit your family then in the

20     period between the ban and the end of the war?

21        A.   Between five and six times.  Sometimes I was denied entry, and

22     it's hard to remember.

23        Q.   All right.

24             MR. HARMON:  I notice the time, Your Honour, I'm happy to break

25     now.

Page 12795

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If it's convenient to you.

 2             MR. HARMON:  It is, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at -- I beg your

 4     pardon, before we do that can we move into open session, please.

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at half past

 8     12.00.  Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could I just make a little point before you start,

12     Mr. Harmon.  At the beginning of your testimony you indicated that you

13     were talking to the witness for the rest of today and possibly tomorrow.

14     What the Chamber wanted to find out, not only from you but from

15     everybody, is whether we would be agreeable to sitting extended hours

16     this afternoon to allow you to finish the witness and possibly get a free

17     day tomorrow.

18             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, in principle, I have no problem what

19     that.  It depends how far into my examination I progress.  I will try my

20     best.  I have one matter to check during the next break and I'm in a

21     better position to advise you where I am in my examination at the end of

22     this break, but in principle I have no problem.  I can't guarantee that I

23     will finish with the witness, however.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In practice would you have the strength to sit the

25     whole day.

Page 12796

 1             MR. HARMON:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And would our witness have the strength to be

 3     grilled the whole day, and of course our interpreters and the rest of the

 4     staff would also have to make a contribution to this and to indicate

 5     whether they are agreeable.  I will ask them once you have given us

 6     feedback on how far you are.

 7             MR. HARMON:  That's fine, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

 9             MR. HARMON:

10        Q.   Sir, I want to stay on the topic of your ban --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, please, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let Mr. Harmon first speak his mind.

13     For the time being, as far as the Defence is concerned, I'm not opposed

14     to us working in the afternoon, but I should first perhaps state our

15     position once we've heard Mr. Harmon.  In principle, I am in favour of

16     the proposal.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Sir, I want to stay on the topic that we were discussing before

20     the break and that is your ban from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

21     During the period of the initiation of the ban until the end of the war,

22     how many times did you visit the VJ General Staff in Belgrade?

23        A.   I don't think I ever did.  In principle I never made official

24     visits to the General Staff of the VJ.

25        Q.   How many unofficial visits did you make?

Page 12797

 1        A.   Once or twice I met with General Perisic, but it was solely a

 2     private visit.  We had been friends for a very long time.

 3        Q.   What was that private visit, what did you discuss during that

 4     private visit?

 5        A.   The first issue had to do with my housing problem, which had not

 6     been solved.  We also discussed family problems because he too had lived

 7     in Sarajevo and had similar problems with his flat in Sarajevo as I did.

 8     We talked about his private automobile which had been seised in Sarajevo

 9     and some other issues.

10        Q.   What other issues?

11        A.   About political matters.  I told him that I was in a very

12     difficult situation, hard-pressed between two sides.  Mr. Perisic told me

13     that he too every day as he was coming to work was expecting to be served

14     a decree removing him from his function.

15        Q.   When was that private visit?

16        A.   It definitely took place before sanctions were imposed.  I don't

17     recall ever communicating with Mr. Perisic at the time the sanctions were

18     in force.

19        Q.   When you say sanctions, you mean the prohibition of your entry

20     into the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

21        A.   Yes, that's what I'm referring to.

22        Q.   My question then -- you misunderstood my question.  My question

23     to you, sir, is how many times did you visit the General Staff of the VJ

24     from the time you were banned from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

25     until the end of the war?

Page 12798

 1        A.   On two occasions at the most.

 2        Q.   Okay.  When was the first occasion?

 3        A.   I really don't remember.

 4        Q.   What was the purpose of your going to the VJ General Staff on the

 5     first occasion?

 6        A.   General Perisic had asked for his privately-owned car, his

 7     Toyota, to be pulled out of Sarajevo.  I received this duty from

 8     President Karadzic.  I did all in my power to have the car taken out and

 9     my first meeting with Perisic was in order to let him know that I was

10     sorry, but I was unable to get the car out of Sarajevo and take it to

11     Belgrade.

12        Q.   If you were banned from entering the FRY, how was it that you

13     went to Belgrade?  What were the circumstances on how you went to

14     Belgrade then to report to General Perisic about his car?

15        A.   Now, what I just stated about the car happened before I was

16     banned from entering Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   Let me try again, sir.  My question is this:  On how many

18     occasions from when the ban on your entry into Yugoslavia started until

19     the end of the war, on how many occasions did you go to the Federal

20     Republic of Yugoslavia and specifically to the General Staff of the VJ?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hope you understand that question,

22     Mr. Kovacevic?  It's coming a third time.  How many times did you visit

23     the VJ General Staff during the ban, not outside of the ban?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave a detailed answer to this

25     question before the break.  I don't recall ever visiting anyone in the

Page 12799

 1     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, at the time when there was a ban

 2     on my entry to Yugoslavia through to the end of the war, from that period

 3     through to the end of the war.

 4             MR. HARMON:

 5        Q.   So I take it your answer is that you did not enter the

 6     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia during the period of the ban?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no, that's not the answer.

 8             MR. HARMON:  Okay.  Then I will --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The answer is I never went to the VJ General Staff

10     during the period of the ban.

11             MR. HARMON:  Correct, I'm sorry.  Then I misphrased it.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And before the break he said he probably went five

13     or six times to the Federal Republic --

14             MR. HARMON:  I withdraw that question, Your Honour.  I misphrased

15     the question.

16        Q.   Sir, then do I understand your evidence to be that you never

17     wasn't to the General Staff of the VJ during the period of the ban?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   In your evidence this morning at page 10 you said at line --

20     starting at line 2 you said:

21             "I was summoned to the personnel administration of the

22     General Staff of the VJ on such and such a date.  The summons was served

23     to me and I signed it off.  When the day came, I reported to the

24     personnel administration in Belgrade to speak to General Matovic."

25             So where did that conversation take place?

Page 12800

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.  It was in the building of what was at the

 2     time I believe the 30th Personnel Centre.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And on that occasion -- I may have asked you this, I don't

 4     remember.  Do you remember approximately when that was?

 5        A.   I answered that I didn't recall the exact date, but the summons

 6     would state the precise date and I saw the summons at Mr. Lukic's.

 7        Q.   Right.  All right.  Sir, thank you very much.  Let me move to a

 8     different topic then.  Yesterday in your evidence --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I may leave it for the redirect, but

11     for precision's sake it was contained in the personnel file of this

12     witness and Mr. Harmon knows this.  The file contains the summons.

13             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, it does contain the summons.  I have a

14     copy of the summons.  There is no point, since the witness has answered

15     that he received the summons, that I need to show him the summons.  I

16     have the summons.  I was asking him -- my point of interest was how many

17     times he went.  I know he went at least one time.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess what Mr. Lukic is trying to explain is

19     just that the Lukic referred to here isn't himself.

20             MR. HARMON:  Okay.  All right.

21        Q.   Sir, let me explore an issue that you've raised on more than one

22     occasion in the course of this evidence.  Specifically, it's --

23             MR. HARMON:  Your Honours, I direct you and counsel to page

24     12667, lines 3 through 8.

25        Q.   And your evidence was as follows:

Page 12801

 1             "At the beginning of the war through the end -- through to the

 2     end of 1993, the VRS had sufficient quantities of ammunition and fuel.

 3     Objectively and realistically speaking, there was no need for certain

 4     types of ammunition to be additionally obtained because the quantities

 5     were sufficient.  There were only a couple of types of ammunition that

 6     were in short supply."

 7             Okay.  Let me, first of all, just get some context to this

 8     answer.  Are you familiar, sir, with the strategic objectives of the

 9     Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10        A.   Yes, I was familiar with some of these objectives, and I do

11     recall that one of them was access to the sea, if I remember correctly.

12        Q.   Could I have -- well, the other objectives were -- the first was

13     to -- and the demarcation of the state to separate the -- to separate

14     from the other two communities; in other words, separate the Serbs from

15     the Croats and the Muslims.  The second objective was a corridor between

16     Semberija and Krajina.  The third objective was the establishment of a

17     corridor in the Drina River valley and the eradication of the Drina River

18     as a border between the Serbian states.  The fourth was establishment of

19     borders along the rivers Una and Neretva.  The fifth was the partition of

20     the city of Sarajevo into Serbian and Muslim sections and the

21     establishment of an effective state authority in each section.  And the

22     sixth was the one that you mentioned, access to the sea for the Republika

23     Srpska.  Does that refresh your recollection as to what were the

24     strategic objectives?

25        A.   Yes, I do believe that what you've just read out were these

Page 12802

 1     objectives.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Let's talk about the types of military operations that

 3     were taking place in Bosnia.  After the creation and the development of

 4     the strategic objectives and, in fact, before the creation of the

 5     strategic objectives there was active combat going on in Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina; isn't that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, there was fighting going on even before the National

 8     Assembly met for the session where the mentioned objectives were adopted.

 9        Q.   Those objectives were adopted at the 16th session of the Bosnian

10     Serb Assembly held on the 12th of May, 1992; is that correct?

11        A.   At the time I was not in a position to know that.  I don't know

12     the precise date when it was adopted.

13        Q.   That's fine.  That's fine.  Let me just -- the strategic

14     objectives were military objectives as well as political objectives; in

15     other words, the military was to implement those political objectives,

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.  In principle that's the case.

18        Q.   Let's talk about the extensive combat that was taking place

19     between May 12th, 1992, and the end of 1993.  First of all, there was

20     extensive bombardment and shelling of Sarajevo; isn't that correct?

21        A.   I'm familiar with it.

22        Q.   And that bombardment was extensive between May of 1992 and the

23     end of 1993, wasn't it?

24        A.   The clashes between the two sides continued intensively

25     throughout the war and so did the use of artillery.

Page 12803

 1        Q.   My question is somewhat different.  The bombardment of Sarajevo

 2     by the Bosnian Serbs between May of 1992 and the end of 1993 was

 3     extensive; do you agree or disagree with that proposition?

 4        A.   I do agree that there was bombardment, but I can't estimate what

 5     the extent was.  I don't know the details about the number of rounds

 6     fired.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, are you familiar with Operation Corridor?

 8        A.   Yes, I am, in Posavina.

 9        Q.   Operation Corridor was a military effort to implement the second

10     strategic objective which was to establish a corridor between Semberija

11     and Krajina; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.  What I also know, however, is that the

13     primary reasons were the deaths of infants and children in the Banja Luka

14     maternity ward.

15        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you to listen to my questions and answer my

16     questions.  Now, that military operation started on the 24th of June,

17     1992, and lasted until mid-July.  Do you remember that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   And the units that were involved in the Operation Corridor

20     included the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS; correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   That was a period of intense combat that consumed a significant

23     amount of ammunition; correct?

24        A.   There was fighting going on and a large amount of ammunition was

25     spent.

Page 12804

 1        Q.   Now, are you familiar with Operation Vrbis [phoen]?

 2        A.   No, I'm not.

 3        Q.   Are you familiar with the operation that was conducted by the VRS

 4     to take Jajce in central Bosnia and its surroundings?

 5        A.   I'm familiar with the operation, but I don't know what its name

 6     was.

 7        Q.   But you are familiar with the operation?  That operation was

 8     conducted in July of 1992; correct?

 9        A.   I assume so.  I don't know with certainty.

10        Q.   Are you aware that the 1st Krajina Corps and other VRS units

11     participated in that operation?

12        A.   Yes, I am aware of it.

13        Q.   Let's --  I want to focus your attention along the eastern border

14     along the Drina River in 1992.  The third strategic objective was to

15     eradicate the Drina River as a border between Serbian states and so that

16     area in Eastern Bosnia became the focus of military operations conducted

17     by the VRS; correct?

18        A.   I'm familiar with it and I'm also familiar with the reasons why

19     the operations was carried out.

20        Q.   Okay.  But you are familiar with there was extensive combat in

21     Eastern Bosnia in the period of 1992 up through the end of 1993, wasn't

22     there?

23        A.   I said that I knew about the fighting and the operations, but I

24     was not in a position to learn the real reasons why the operation was

25     conducted save for the need to make sure that there was territorial

Page 12805

 1     contact between Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbia, or rather

 2     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 3        Q.   The operations themselves were extensive, they were conducted by,

 4     among other corps, the East Bosnia Corps, what was later the Drina Corps,

 5     and other units from the VRS; isn't that right?

 6        A.   That's not right.  I can give you an explanation.

 7        Q.   Please just tell me which units participated in the VRS military

 8     activities along -- combat operations along the Drina River?

 9        A.   You said that it was East Bosnia Corps that took part in it which

10     was later renamed the Drina Corps, that's what I meant when I said that

11     this wasn't correct.  What is correct is that the Drina Corps was set up

12     as a separate corps; whereas, what previously existed was the East Bosnia

13     Corps headquartered in Bijeljina which had been set up earlier on.

14        Q.   I accept that, sir, and I misspoke.  My interest is what were the

15     units that were involved in the extensive fighting that took place

16     through the end of 1993 along the Drina River?

17        A.   I note that the Drina Corps participated in this, as did some

18     other brigades from other corps.  From which ones and which other corps,

19     I really don't remember.

20        Q.   There was extensive fighting in the area in and around

21     Srebrenica, that fighting ultimately resulted in the creation of enclaves

22     in Eastern Bosnia.  Are you aware of that?

23        A.   Yes, I am.

24        Q.   Okay.  It resulted in the creation of the enclave of Zepa,

25     Gorazde, and Srebrenica; that's correct, isn't it?

Page 12806

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Those military operations consumed vast amounts, a huge amount of

 3     ammunition and war materiel; correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   And in fact, these major military operations in Eastern Bosnia as

 6     well as the ongoing operations in the other parts of the Republika Srpska

 7     continued to consume major quantities of ammunition through the end of

 8     1993; correct?

 9        A.   The Main Staff did indicate that there was a large consumption of

10     ammunition.

11        Q.   In fact, they indicated to the government of the Republika Srpska

12     that their reserves were depleted; isn't that right?

13        A.   That's what they reported to the Ministry of Defence, the

14     government, and the president of the republic.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now, let me --

16             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I have three documents that fall under

17     the rubric of fresh evidence.  And I'd like to have a -- make submissions

18     on those, but I think the witness should leave the courtroom while I make

19     those submissions.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kovacevic, there's a request that you excuse

21     us for some time.  We'll call you back.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

24             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I am seeking leave to introduce three

25     documents, I'm putting aside one document which is the Mladic diary which

Page 12807

 1     I'll deal with when I come to it, but three documents that address

 2     precisely the subject that the witness testified about.  They are

 3     65 ter number 8948, 65 ter number 6399, and 65 ter number 7346.  These

 4     are three documents that we did not introduce in our case in chief

 5     because this was a topic that General Kovacevic raised, that there was

 6     insufficient [sic] ammunition, for the first time during the course of

 7     these proceedings.

 8             I can tell you, Your Honour, in respect of 65 ter 8948 we

 9     received that on the 22nd of October, 2006.  We disclosed it to the

10     Defence by DVD on the 29th of February, 2008.  In respect of 65 ter 6399,

11     we received that document on the 22nd of January, 2000.  We disclosed it

12     to the Defence on the 2nd of February, 2007 by a -- in a DVD.  The third

13     document, 65 ter 07346, we received on July 7th, 2006, and we disclosed

14     it twice to the Defence; once on the 10th of August, 2007, and once on

15     the 16th of November, 2007, and both disclosures were by CD.

16             As I say, I am seeking to admit these because of the testimony of

17     this witness who raises in this trial for the first time the depletion of

18     materiel assets in the VRS at the end of 1993.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I oppose this, Your Honour, for two

21     reasons.  First of all, I don't think it is possible that Mr. Harmon

22     should be taken aback by Mr. Kovacevic's present testimony.  As you know,

23     Mr. Kovacevic was on the OTP's witness list.  They interviewed him twice.

24     The second interview took place on the 26th of July, 2007.  Mr. Kovacevic

25     told the OTP in no uncertain terms at the time that before the end of

Page 12808

 1     1993 the reserves of the VRS had been reduced.  In addition to that,

 2     General Djukic's statements, which are evidence, address the same facts.

 3     General Djukic claims the same thing that we heard from

 4     General Kovacevic.  In his evidence he claims admittedly that the

 5     reserves were reduced in mid-1993.

 6             I think the Prosecutor had full awareness of this information

 7     even before the trial and not just during their case.  During their own

 8     case, they had every opportunity to introduce these facts through any

 9     witness they chose, perhaps even Mr. Kovacevic himself.  The OTP failed

10     to do that at the time.  They are trying to do it now.  Nevertheless,

11     this is not really something unknown that the OTP has just discovered.  I

12     don't think the standard has been met to introduce new evidence like that

13     at this point in time.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, we did not call General Kovacevic to

16     testify.  We did not make the -- we did not introduce these documents

17     obviously until he came.  I think the interest of justice are something

18     that we must put above all in terms of the technicalities of the --

19     whether we introduced these or not.  These documents will demonstrate

20     that the VRS ammunition reserves and other materiel reserves were

21     exhausted.  One of the documents, Your Honour, is a report to the

22     government of which this witness was a member.

23             So I also include in my submissions that it is in the interests

24     of justice and in the interest of this Trial Chamber to see and review

25     those documents.

Page 12809

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did Mr. Kovacevic tell you in no uncertain terms

 2     during an interview by the OTP that the reserves were depleted?

 3             MR. HARMON:  Give me one minute, Your Honour.  I'll tell you

 4     precisely.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance --

 6             MR. HARMON:  I have a reference, Your Honour.  Yes, he told us

 7     that:  "Until the end of 1993 the VRS had enough food, fuel, ammunition,

 8     but we did not have enough clothes or boots mostly."  That's what he told

 9     us.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, something is happening which is confusing me.

11     Earlier when you were -- you started with your submissions, and I'll tell

12     you where.  At page 48, line -- starting from line 21 you said:  "These

13     are three documents that we did not introduce in our case in chief

14     because this was a topic that General Kovacevic raised, there was

15     insufficient ammunition, for the first time during the course of these

16     proceedings."  And I wanted to find out from you at the time whether you

17     meant to say he said there was sufficient.

18             MR. HARMON:  Yes, either I misspoke or it's improperly recorded.

19     If I said insufficient, I meant to say "raise for the first time there

20     was sufficient."

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  If that's what you meant, then I now

22     understand your latest point.  I see you, Mr. Lukic, but I'll call you

23     just now.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to respond to Mr. Harmon, I

25     don't think this is a technical issue, and I don't think this is in the

Page 12810

 1     best interest of justice.  I assert that these are not new facts that the

 2     OTP has just learned of and that cannot be used as a reason to establish

 3     a new standard for introducing evidence.  These are facts that the OTP is

 4     aware of.  They presented these facts through General Djukic's statement.

 5     Their omission to do so at the time cannot in any way justify doing so

 6     now through General Kovacevic.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber, Moloto dissenting, will grant your

 9     application, Mr. Harmon.

10             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The witness can be called

11     back.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Call the witness.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.  Could I have 65 ter 8948 on the monitor,

16     please.

17        Q.   Sir, I want to first of all direct your attention to the source

18     of this document, which is found at the upper left-hand corner of the

19     document.  It is from the Main Staff of the VRS and it's dated the 18th

20     of July, 1993.  And it is titled "Replenishment Need, Army of the

21     Republika Srpska," and it is submitted to the General Staff of the VJ to

22     the chief, personally.

23             MR. HARMON:  Can we go to the last page of this document and see

24     who the author of this document is.

25        Q.   You see who is author is, sir?

Page 12811

 1        A.   Yes, I do.  Chief of Staff, Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic.

 2             MR. HARMON:  Can we return to the first page of the document.

 3        Q.   Would you read the first paragraph, sir, to yourself.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   We discussed the extensive combat that was taking place in the

 6     Republika Srpska before I showed you this document.  This document from

 7     General Milovanovic says that in the last six months, six months prior to

 8     the 18th of July, the VRS had been engaged in continuous combat

 9     activities aimed at the liberation of ancient living territory of the

10     Serbian people.  And he goes on to say that in the combat they spent huge

11     quantities of materiel which cannot be replenished from our own

12     resources.

13             Now, sir, the resources that were available to the VRS were the

14     reserves that were left over by the JNA amongst other things; isn't that

15     correct?

16        A.   General Milovanovic, as Chief of Staff, had information available

17     to him based on which he was able to produce this request.  Hence, I

18     believe that the request was based on that.

19        Q.   All right.  So according -- and therefore he makes a request to

20     the VJ to provide them with extensive quantities of ammunition because

21     they can't replenish the expended ammunition from their own reserves;

22     isn't that correct?

23        A.   I believe that's what he wrote, but I do have information

24     suggesting that they did in fact have ammunition.

25             MR. HARMON:  Let me go to private session, if I may, Your Honour.

Page 12812

 1     JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session. 

 2     [Private session]      [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]    

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I went into private session because I

 6     want to deal with another entry from the Mladic diary.  I first seek

 7     leave to include this document, it's XN 358 on our 65 ter list.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you still going to come back to this document

 9     here, 8948?

10             MR. HARMON:  Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I'd ask that be

11     admitted into evidence.  I'm not going to come back to it.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

13     given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

15     Exhibit P2915.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  P2 -- Mladic document.

17             Mr. Lukic?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Is this one of the three documents

19     that the previous application was in relation to?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No.

21             MR. HARMON:  No, this is a separate --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This is a Mladic document, which all parties have

23     received now during the trial as I understood --

24             MR. HARMON:  Yeah, this is --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- Mr. Harmon's initial argument.

Page 12813

 1             MR. HARMON:  This is not one of the documents I was making an

 2     argument about.  This is a separate document, a Mladic document, and I'm

 3     adopting the usual procedure that we have had in respect of all of these

 4     Mladic diary entries.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't have a problem with that

 6     procedure, Mladic diary entries.  I'm just trying to figure out whether

 7     that is one of the documents that we ...

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may first clarify.  I have

10     information suggesting that the document being called up now is one from

11     the OTP 65 ter list and not an excerpt from the Mladic diaries, is my

12     understanding correct?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, it is not correct, sir.  I want to -- trying

14     to refer you back to Mr. Harmon's initial submission.  If you look at

15     page 48, starting from line 17 Mr. Harmon says:

16             "Your Honour, I'm seeking leave to introduce three documents.

17     I'm putting aside one document which is the Mladic diary which I will

18     deal with when I come to it."  So 8948, 6399, 7346 are the documents that

19     you are speaking to.  Now, as he is standing, he is now speaking to this

20     one, he is coming now to the Mladic document.  And the Mladic document,

21     he says, it's an entry in the diary which is documents that have been

22     received by both parties now recently, but therefore it cannot be in his

23     65 ter list logically.

24             MR. LUKIC:  [Microphone not activated].

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 12814

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Microphone.  Microphone, Mr. --

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is the portion that was

 3     assigned a 65 ter number during the Prosecution case dated 1995.  The

 4     Mladic diaries.  That became OTP evidence.  However, without going into

 5     that, I'm wondering whether what he is about to show now is an

 6     XN document, and if so, Mr. Harmon should explain why he is about to use

 7     these documents with this witness.  Do the documents meet the standards

 8     to be shown this witness as fresh evidence?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you mean "accent document"?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is the way the OTP internally

11     marked documents that don't have a status, neither 65 ter nor T nor D.

12     So in that case we are talking about fresh evidence.  My question, this

13     entry that the witness is about to be shown should be seen as fresh

14     evidence unless it has a status.  If so, Mr. Harmon should set or define

15     a standard required for us to even discuss this document.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon, just before yourself, please, I've

17     tried to explain to Mr. Lukic and I'm failing.

18             MR. HARMON:  This is a document from the Mladic diaries.  We

19     have -- both parties have used the procedure when we want to use

20     portions, excerpts from these diaries.  So this is a diary entry that I

21     am I going -- I want to rely on and want to introduce and show this

22     witness like any -- like many others and in fact like Mladic diary

23     entries I showed the witnesser earlier.  So my purpose is to invoke the

24     same procedures that we have used in respect of these diary entries that

25     we've used with every other diary entry.

Page 12815

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I really have a problem now.  What

 2     we've been showing the witness, what Mr. Harmon has been showing the

 3     witness is evidence introduced by the OTP during their case.  Now

 4     Mr. Harmon wants to use this opportunity to introduce new evidence from

 5     the Mladic diaries invoking a procedure that we adopted.  We adopted a

 6     procedure in relation to the Defence case and that's where we're at.  A

 7     new 65 ter document can be tabled or proposed orally.  The OTP is in no

 8     position to propose their own new 65 ter numbers during the Defence case.

 9     All they can do is try and propose fresh evidence and that is the whole

10     difference.  This is an excerpt from the Mladic diaries that the

11     Prosecution never used during their own case.  If they wish to do so now

12     with this new witness, a Defence witness, they have to use it as fresh

13     evidence and not raise an issue of assigning a 65 ter number to this

14     excerpt in the middle of the Defence case.  I'm not sure if there's

15     anything that I'm confused about, but I think the procedure is pretty

16     clear.  Once the OTP case is over, the OTP can either ask to re-open

17     their case or introduce new evidence.  They can't have a document

18     assigned a 65 ter number now.  Are we admitting new evidence?  In case we

19     are, we may indeed assign a number to it, a 65 ter number, but we

20     certainly do need to establish a standard for that purpose.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I find it very hard to follow your argument,

22     Mr. Lukic.  And maybe you are right, I'm also misunderstanding

23     Mr. Harmon.  Let me try and explain one more time.  What I understand

24     Mr. Harmon to be saying about this document that he has put us into

25     private session about is that he is introducing fresh evidence, it is

Page 12816

 1     fresh evidence because it is part of the Mladic diaries that became

 2     discovered to everybody only during the Defence case.  Is that what you

 3     are saying, Mr. Harmon?

 4             MR. HARMON:  I am, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what I said.  And the standard has been,

 6     and that's the procedure, that fresh evidence they can introduce.  Is it

 7     not?  Is that not the procedure that we've agreed on?  The reason we

 8     postponed for almost two months was that the parties must look at these

 9     diaries so that they must decide which parts of them they would like to

10     use.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If the Prosecutor wants to introduce

12     a new portion of the Mladic diaries, they can do so by either re-opening

13     their case or introducing it as new evidence specifying why this fresh

14     evidence, does it go to a witness's credibility, is it based on the Prlic

15     decision, or is there something else in relation to new evidence.  But

16     they have to say this, they have to provide an argument.  That's all I'm

17     asking.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is your position that the Prosecution was in

19     possession of this information during their case?

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I'm missing something.  I really don't follow

22     you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The OTP learned of the new documents,

24     the Mladic diaries, or these documents after the start of the Defence

25     case.  The Prosecutor must file an application to use new evidence to

Page 12817

 1     prove that they were not aware of the evidence and that it is now in

 2     their best interest to introduce this evidence.  They need to have a

 3     standard that is based on the Prlic decision.  It's not just about them

 4     recently learning of this new document.  The other standard has to be met

 5     as well.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Namely?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would need to invoke the decision

10     during the break.  I can't do it off the top of my head, if I may.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The problem is, and I believe you must be misled

12     by what Mr. Harmon said earlier.  There's no break.  He also earlier said

13     he will decide in the next break.  This is the end of our day, if we are

14     not going to sit in the afternoon.  So that response from Mr. Harmon I'm

15     going to have to ask for before we break today because there's no other

16     break we are going to have.

17             Now, you are not going to get any break also to look for that

18     document.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm somewhat taken aback.  I do have

20     to admit that.  I have something in my head that I can't present without

21     arguments, but I think this may be relevant for the procedure that we

22     shall probably using in this courtroom for quite sometime given the

23     importance of these documents.  I think we should all avoid premature

24     decisions without clear positions.  For the first time we are now facing

25     the situation where Mr. Harmon is proposing something -- by the way I'm

Page 12818

 1     not sure if we are still in private session or not.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon proposing something that

 4     is part of this body of documents and where I think the point in time at

 5     which he obtained these documents is not a sufficient standard.  That's

 6     my position.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what is the sufficient standard?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the President, please.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what I asked you earlier.  What is the

10     sufficient standard?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe -- I believe I think the

12     ruling is as clear on that, and I would be speculating which is something

13     that I would like to avoid, but I can't keep all these things in my head

14     right now, but it is my opinion that it is not sufficient for a standard

15     to be established for the Prosecutor to demonstrate the point in time at

16     which they obtained a certain document.  I think other circumstances must

17     be demonstrated as well.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You got to tell me which circumstances, sir,

19     because I'm trying to say to you, Mr. Lukic, that as I understand, and I

20     think we had a written decision about this issue not very long ago, and

21     what you referred to as the Prlic decision, I suppose.  Now, the standard

22     there was it's got to be fresh evidence, and the party proposing to bring

23     that fresh evidence or, specifically the Prosecution, must show that the

24     they've recently acquired the document, that they didn't have it during

25     the time when they were -- during the Prosecution's case, and I thought

Page 12819

 1     that, and I still think that this is what Mr. Harmon is saying, that he

 2     wants to introduce an entry from the Mladic diary which the parties

 3     received now during the Defence case.  Now, you are saying that's not

 4     sufficient, and I'm quite prepared to understand that.  I also don't

 5     remember everything.  Now, you have to remind us what other criteria are

 6     there in that decision.  Because to my mind it looks like it is -- this

 7     is the major thing and perhaps almost the only requirement, but there may

 8     be others, I don't know.  But then you have got to tell us.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm in your hands.  I cannot for the

10     time being take my objection back.  It is your ruling, and then perhaps I

11     can additionally furnish further arguments.  I do not mean to stall this

12     procedure in any way, that is certain, but may it please be given a

13     chance to perhaps expand at greater length on my other arguments later

14     on.  At this point in time, I'm not able to provide a full argument, and

15     I'm reluctant to allow this to be taken as my final position.  I do have

16     to apologise in advance for any discrepancies that my submission may

17     cause.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon, you are not able to deal with other

19     things that are not controversial and come back to this later?

20             MR. HARMON:  Yes, I am, Your Honour but it takes --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Because I think the parties need to argue the

22     point fully before the ruling is made.

23             MR. HARMON:  Perhaps it would be, I made submissions on three

24     other documents.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what I'm saying.

Page 12820

 1             MR. HARMON:  Perhaps I can make similar submissions on this

 2     document and --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But this document seems to be different from the

 4     other documents.

 5             MR. HARMON:  It is, Your Honour.  Many of the arguments what -- I

 6     could make some fresh evidence arguments on this document as well.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought you had.

 8             MR. HARMON:  Well, we -- there's no question that we received

 9     this and it is fresh evidence.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

11             MR. HARMON:  No question about that.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic says that's not the only criteria.

13             MR. HARMON:  I know.  But let me just expanded further, perhaps

14     without the -- I made other submissions why the previous documents were

15     relevant and important.  I make similar submissions as to this particular

16     document in addition to which -- so that would include the interest of

17     justice among other.  So I make those submissions as well.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I need to say, you know, that procedure is

19     followed is also in the interest of justice.

20             MR. HARMON:  Yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I think there is a fundamental difference

22     between those three documents and this document.

23             MR. HARMON:  I agree.  I agree, Your Honour.  I completely agree.

24     This is a document that all the parties received after the Prosecution

25     had rested its case.

Page 12821

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

 2             MR. HARMON:  We agree with each other, Your Honour.  I think what

 3     Mr. Lukic is trying to suggest is that in addition to the timeliness

 4     issue on this, I need to demonstrate that it is in the interest of

 5     justice and why it is relevant, and I am prepared to make the arguments

 6     that I made as to relevance and the interest of justice also apply to

 7     this document, so just trying to see if I can move these proceedings on a

 8     bit faster otherwise I will --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I will tell you, I do not think relevance and

10     interest of justice are necessarily part of the fresh evidence argument.

11     Those are parts of admissibility.  Rule 89.  They must be relevant,

12     anything that is introduced, it must pass the relevance muster before it

13     can be admitted.  So we understand it is relevant, we understand -- and,

14     of course, it is in the interest of justice that the trial is being held

15     to get as much information about the allegations as possible.  What I

16     hear Mr. Lukic saying is that -- over and above all that, according to

17     the Prlic decision, you have to have other criteria in addition to the

18     fresh evidence requirement.  He is unable to tell us what those are

19     because he needs time to do his research, and that's why I was asking you

20     if you can't deal with the things that you can deal with while he finds

21     this argument, and we can rule on it later.

22             MR. HARMON:  I will do that, Your Honour, I will come back to

23     this document.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. HARMON:  I understand that we will break -- will we break at

Page 12822

 1     the normal time, Your Honour?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will break at the normal time, but then we are

 3     going to ask Mr. Harmon to give us an answer to what he promised to tell

 4     us.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour is aware, I haven't advanced much

 6     further than I started.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you are likely to take more than two days?

 8             MR. HARMON:  I have -- I can certainly try my best to finish

 9     today but.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We've got five minutes left.

11             MR. HARMON:  I've got five minutes.  Let me deal with the next

12     document in five minutes and then we can re-assess.  If I could have 65

13     ter 06399 on the screen.

14        Q.   Sir, first of all let me begin by identifying what this document

15     is.  This is a document from the 27th Motorised Brigade command to the

16     2nd Motorised Brigade commander.  It is entitled "Information From

17     Subordinate Commands and Units" and it is also entitled "The General

18     Situation and Results Achieved by the 1st Krajina Corps."

19             MR. HARMON:  Can we go to the end of the document.

20        Q.   And you see a signature and a name at the end of the document,

21     sir?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And who is that, sir?

24        A.   I don't know him, and I'm not familiar with the establishment

25     post held by Mr. Ranko Ignjatic.  He is the one who is certifying the

Page 12823

 1     authenticity of the copy.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, I want to direct your attention to certain passages in

 3     this document.

 4             MR. HARMON:  If we could first of all go to page 3 of the English

 5     just to see what the chapeau of this discussion is.  It's page 3 of the

 6     English and insofar as the B/C/S, I believe it is on the first page.

 7        Q.   Okay.  This is the chapeau of the discussion that we are going to

 8     be focusing on.  It's the functioning of logistic support, the

 9     significance of effective RiK, which is command and control, and the

10     completion of combat tasks.  Now, in the first paragraph of this -- let

11     me just read this to you.  It says:

12             "Besides the professional skills and unit leaders and commanders

13     and unit commands as a whole and the level of training of personnel, the

14     morale and logistics support of the units and the functioning of civilian

15     government institutions in the corps zone of responsibility and the

16     entire territory of the Republika Srpska significantly influenced

17     effectiveness of command and control."

18             MR. HARMON:  Now, if we could go to the next page in the English.

19     And the next page in the Serbian language version.  I am sorry, page 4 of

20     the English version.  We need to go to the next page in the English

21     version.  I believe we need to go to the next page in B/C/S version as

22     well.

23        Q.   All right, sir, I want to direct the Court's attention to the

24     middle of the English version.  It says in this -- it should say in your

25     version as well, sir:

Page 12824

 1             "Establishment reserves in food, clothing, ammunition, fuel,

 2     spare parts, and other necessities were used up a long time ago.  The

 3     daily food requirements of the corps units amounts to 150 to 190 tonnes

 4     of combat rations."  It goes on to say "a minimum of 13.5 tonnes or a

 5     maximum of 40.5 tonnes of fuel, 600 kilograms of medicines, and about

 6     800.000 to 1.000.000 rounds of various kinds of ammunition."

 7             And if you go down to the bottom of the English, please, it says,

 8     and we'll have to turn the page in a just a minute, it's the last

 9     sentence -- fragment of the sentence.

10             "With only about 100 tons of fuel" -- if we can go to the next

11     page in English -- "available monthly or three to four tonnes daily, it

12     is difficult to carry out tasks in peacetime, let alone in time of war.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

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Page 12825

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             You've heard what I was saying to you, but the matter stands

17     adjourned to tomorrow - what is the date tomorrow? - 16th, 9.00 in the

18     morning, Courtroom II.  Court adjourned.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.

20                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th of July,

21                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.