Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12993

 1                           Wednesday, 25 August 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody and welcome all back

 6     from recess.  I hope you all had a good break and are all ready to start

 7     work and work hard.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo

12     Perisic.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             May we have the appearances for the day starting with the

15     Prosecution, please.

16             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, counsel,

17     everyone in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata, and

18     Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             And for the Defence.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

22     morning to everyone in the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic is represented today

23     by Novak Lukic, Boris Zorko, and our intern Ms. O'Connor.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Before we start, there's a little housekeeping matter to deal

Page 12994

 1     with.  At the last appearance we were told that Exhibits P33 and P39 were

 2     admitted as public documents, and Registry informed the Trial Chamber

 3     that they contained confidential information about the identity of

 4     protected witnesses and requested that the Trial Chamber give an order on

 5     their status.  The Trial Chamber indicated that it required the

 6     submissions of the parties before it can make that order, and the parties

 7     agreed that they would make such submissions after the recess.  This is

 8     now after the recess.

 9             Mr. Harmon.

10             MR. HARMON:  I will be prepared to make some submissions after

11     the first break, Your Honour.  I was -- I'm taken aback by this.  I was

12     not informed of this, so I am not prepared.  I apologise.  After the

13     recess I will make submissions on this, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, are you equally taken by surprise?

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I would actually say the same

16     thing that Mr. Harmon said.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  That being the case then, we'll hear the

18     parties after the break on -- these are Exhibits P33 and P39.  Okay.

19     Fine.

20             Mr. Lukic, your next witness.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are prepared to call

22     our next witness, Mr. Mile Novakovic.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please make the declaration.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 12995

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  MILE NOVAKOVIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated, sir.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before I hand you over to your counsel, I just

 7     want to say thank you very much for coming to testify.  The Trial Chamber

 8     is advised that you may be requesting certain breaks as we go along, and

 9     should you feel the need to do so, please don't hesitate.  Just ask and

10     we'll listen.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It's clear.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General.  Would you be kind enough

16     to tell your full name for the transcript.

17        A.   I am Mile Novakovic.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, may I interrupt you.  I'm very sorry to

19     do this.

20             Just for the record may the record show that the Chamber is

21     sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge Picard -- in the

22     absence of Judge David.  Judge Picard is right here next to me.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   General, when were you born and where?

25        A.   I was born on the 29th of April, 1950, in Kirin municipality of

Page 12996

 1     Vrginmost in the former SFRY.

 2        Q.   And in which former republic was Vrginmost?

 3        A.   It was in the people's Republic of Croatia.  That was what it was

 4     called when I was born.

 5        Q.   General, I'm going to go quickly through your CV because that

 6     will be important for us and the topics that we will be presenting to the

 7     Court.  I'm going to put a leading question to you, and you can add if

 8     you have anything, because during our preparation for the testimony you

 9     gave some remarks regarding your CV in view of certain duties.

10             When did you complete the military academy, General?

11        A.   The 31st of June --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter did not hear the year.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I'm going to remind you about what we talked about during our

15     preparations.  After my question, would you kindly wait before you begin

16     answering so that it can all be translated.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I hope you can notice that the

18     interpreter says she didn't hear the year.  She heard the 31st of June

19     but didn't hear the year, neither did we.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 31st of July, 1972.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   After that, you completed a higher school, that is, the staff

23     command academy.  When did you finish that approximately?

24        A.   I finished that academy in Belgrade in 1981 -- actually, I

25     attended the academy from 1981 to 1983.

Page 12997

 1        Q.   After that, you completed your post-graduate studies.  Could you

 2     tell us the subject that you graduated in, and where did you attend your

 3     post-graduate studies?

 4        A.   I completed my Ph.D. in the methodology of science or the

 5     methodology of warfare.  I completed that two-year study in Belgrade

 6     also.

 7        Q.   We will see in your personnel file that you began your studies at

 8     the national defence school, and you suspended that education pursuant to

 9     an order by the SSNO at the time; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, that is correct.  This top military school for war studies

11     was where I was sent on the 1st of September, 1991.  I was there until

12     the 23rd of September of the same year, when pursuant to an order by the

13     SSNO I was sent to the war-affected area of the then-Yugoslavia.  I went

14     to the territory of the former Yugoslav Republic of Croatia.

15        Q.   And this interruption in your education, did that affect only you

16     in your class or everybody else in that class?

17        A.   The education was suspended for all those who were attending the

18     school as well as the lower school that they were attending.  This is the

19     command staff academy.

20        Q.   General, the schools that you completed, can you tell us what

21     your grades were, what were your marks, generally, in those schools?

22        A.   I was always given the top grades in all of the schools that I

23     attended.

24        Q.   Now we're going to go through all of your duties, and we can see

25     from your personnel file that in your military professional career you

Page 12998

 1     carried out all duties from the bottom up.

 2        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I performed all command duties from the

 3     lowest to the top one, practically the commander of the army.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at Mr. Novakovic's

 5     personnel file on the screen now, please.  This is Exhibit P1777.  And

 6     this is pages 6 and 7 in the B/C/S and pages 4, 5, and 6 in the English.

 7     And we're going to go through some of the items in this personnel file.

 8        Q.   General, you will see on the screen in front of you a part of

 9     your personnel file.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is ET 00611-7592

11     [as interpreted].  This is that page in the English.  In the B/C/S this

12     is 06 -- Ah, you have it in the B/C/S.  Yes, that is right.

13             Your Honours, I'm going to start from the entry of the

14     27th of April, 1990.  This is the date in the right-hand column.

15             The English page is not the right page.  This refers to

16     promotions.  Can we look at the next page, please.  The previous page in

17     the English, please.

18             We see this entry in the middle of the page, Your Honours.

19        Q.   General, first we can see that from 1988, pursuant to the order

20     of the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, until 1990 you were in

21     the Koprivnica Garrison; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And then you were assigned, pursuant to an SSNO order in

24     April 1990, to the 5th Military District to the 73rd Motorised Brigade,

25     and your rank at the time was colonel; is that correct?

Page 12999

 1        A.   No.  At the time I was lieutenant-colonel, and I was assigned to

 2     a duty that was supposed to carry the rank of colonel and that was the

 3     commander of the 73rd Motorised Brigade as it is stated here.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  The next entry we can see, and it's a

 5     chronological gap there, and I want to see what happened here, and that

 6     is that from August 1990, that is, the entry below the next one, pursuant

 7     to the SSNO order you were assigned as assistant chief of training of the

 8     commander of the 5th Military District in Zagreb.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that is correct.

10        Q.   After that, you were sent to this training at the School for

11     National Defence from Zagreb, where you were sent pursuant to an order of

12     the 11th of April, 1999 [as interpreted].  As it says here in this entry,

13     the schooling was supposed to finish on the 1st of June, 1992, but you

14     had to leave early, and that is why the date, the 1st of July, 1992, is

15     there -- the 1st of June, 1992, is there; is that correct?

16        A.   You've got the date when the order was drafted.  The actual

17     schooling was supposed to start on the 1st of September of that year, and

18     it should have been completed in the summer of the following year.

19        Q.   But the education was suspended.  And then on the

20     27th of September, 1992, by an order of the Federal Secretariat for

21     National Defence, you were temporarily assigned to the

22     5th Military District, to the 1st Operations Group; is that correct?

23        A.   I think we need to be precise here.  I was not sent to the

24     1st Operations Group.  What happened was that the command of that

25     operations group in charge of Banija and Kordun was formed in Belgrade

Page 13000

 1     and I was one of the members of that command of the operative group,

 2     which, as a command that was formed in Belgrade, was sent to the area

 3     there.

 4        Q.   We're going to discuss this further during your testimony.  I'm

 5     just going through all your posts chronologically.  We will deal with all

 6     of those details to the extent that they're relevant for these

 7     proceedings.

 8             After that, you were temporarily sent to the 4th Partisan Brigade

 9     in Vrginmost as part of this 1st Operations Group by a decision of the

10     28th of October, 1991, for a period of three months.  How long were you

11     there as the commander of the 4th Partisan Brigade?

12        A.   During this time, I wasn't a commander of the

13     4th Partisan Brigade at all, but the commander of that TO group was

14     Captain Mladenovic.  I was in that area as an operative from the superior

15     command, the command superior to this brigade, co-ordinating the work of

16     several units of the JNA and the Territorial Defence in this territory

17     where this 4th Brigade was.  And you can understand this also if you see

18     that here there is no establishment rank that would be appropriate for

19     that particular duty.  This is an operative assignment.  It's not an

20     assignment to a duty by establishment.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Then it says that in December 1991 you were sent to

22     the TO in the Krajina, to the TO staff 3 OZ - I don't know what that

23     means - in Glina.  The name of the unit was Banija-Kordun.

24        A.   Since the Yugoslav People's Army at the time was being

25     restructured, the units that were in that area, and that was followed by

Page 13001

 1     the arrival of UNPROFOR, the area that was under the responsibility of

 2     the command of the 1st Operations Group for Kordun and Banija actually

 3     formed two operations zones.  That's what it means, OZ, operations zone.

 4     One was in charge of Kordun and the other one was in charge of Banija.  I

 5     was assigned to the 3rd Operations Zone; that was responsible for Kordun.

 6        Q.   With an order by the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, in

 7     April 1992 you were sent to the special units of the police of the MUP of

 8     the Government of the RSK to the Vojnic Garrison; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   I'm interested in the following entry in your personnel file,

11     which states the following:  That on the 30th of May, 1992, you were sent

12     by an order of the Personnel Administration of the General Staff of the

13     Army of Yugoslavia to the 1st Army.  The garrison was not assigned.  So

14     I'm asking you whether you were ever in the 1st Army of the Army of

15     Yugoslavia or some other 1st Army because we need to specify?

16        A.   I was never in the 1st Army of the Army of Yugoslavia.  This

17     order was written at the time when the Yugoslav People's Army was

18     withdrawing from the Serbian Krajina territory.  In order to maintain the

19     status of members of the Yugoslav People's Army in some way, it was

20     formally decided that officers of the Yugoslav People's Army, according

21     to their wishes, could state where they would be formally assigned within

22     the Yugoslav People's Army.  And this is where this entry comes from.

23     One of the main intentions here was aimed at resolving some questions of

24     their status of senior officers who were withdrawing with the units and

25     the commands of the Yugoslav People's Army to the territory of

Page 13002

 1     Yugoslavia.

 2        Q.   Can you please tell the Trial Chamber whether you withdrew or you

 3     remained in the territory of the Serbian Krajina and what happened after

 4     that in terms of your career.  We don't actually see that here.

 5        A.   I didn't have any dilemmas there.  I remained in that area

 6     because I thought that if the people in that area were in danger, I as an

 7     officer for whose education the taxes of those people paid, I should stay

 8     there and defend them together with the people whose only given task by

 9     the state was to pay taxes and to send their sons to the army.  It would

10     have been immoral if I hadn't stayed.

11        Q.   We're going to talk about that later, but the Serbian Army of the

12     Krajina was formed later.  Did you have any duties within that army; and

13     if so, which ones and when?  If you can please tell us.

14        A.   This question, Mr. Lukic, arises from the fact that I gave a

15     slightly broader answer to your previous question, and I didn't actually

16     answer the question that you put to me.  You asked me about these special

17     units of the milicija, and I didn't respond to that question.

18             The special police units existed before the formation of the

19     Serbian Army of the Krajina; and as you can see, from here I was sent to

20     those special police units pursuant to a formal order, and I was assigned

21     as the commander of the 80th Brigade of the special police units which

22     remained in the area.  After that comes what you asked me.  In late 1992,

23     I became a commander or the commander of the Serbian Army of the Krajina.

24        Q.   How long were you commander of the Army of the Serb Republic of

25     the Krajina?

Page 13003

 1        A.   From the end of October 1992 until February 1993.

 2        Q.   After that -- just a moment, please.  Maybe I have to correct

 3     you; you said February 1993.

 4        A.   1994.  Mistake.  Mistake.  And I see that that's the way it was

 5     written here as well.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  We'll go through the document later.

 7             After February 1994, where were you, which duties did you

 8     perform?

 9        A.   The particular post was called the Deputy Commander-in-Chief for

10     National Security and International Relations, and more often it was

11     defined as Assistant Supreme Commander for National Security and

12     International Relations.

13        Q.   Supreme commander of which army, and which state does this

14     pertain to?

15        A.   The Serb Army of the Krajina in the Serb Republic of the Krajina.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Lukic, at page 10, line 18, the

17     question is:

18             "How long were you commander of the Army of the Serb Republic of

19     the Krajina?"

20             And we are given the period as October 1992 to February 1994.

21             Now, at page 25, line 3, the witness now says:

22             "The particular post was called the Deputy Commander-in-Chief for

23     National Security and International Relations ..."

24             Now, was he a commander of the SVK or was he a deputy

25     Commander-in-Chief for national security and international relations, and

Page 13004

 1     what is the difference between these two?

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  It was probably with the

 3     question that I put afterwards.

 4        Q.   I perhaps confused you.  Perhaps it wouldn't be right --

 5     actually, after you were no longer commander of the Serb Republic of the

 6     Krajina, that's what I meant.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Did he have any other duties after

 8     that, that is to say, after February 1994, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do I then understand that after February 1994 he

10     came down from being commander of the SVK to a lower position?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we get an answer, please, Mr. Witness.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   General, you heard the question put by His Honour Judge Moloto.

15        A.   Well, I could not talk about the ranks involved in terms of these

16     two posts in any definite terms, but I can give you my opinion.  I think

17     that His Honour is right, that in a way it was a lower-ranking position.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And why was that?  Why were you demoted?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The immediate cause, as I

20     understood it, was the conflict with Mr. Martic concerning certain views

21     and conclusions in terms of assessing the situation and concluding what

22     it was that should be done.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This conflict with Mr. Martic, who did he have it

24     with?  Was it with you?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Martic was in conflict

Page 13005

 1     with me partly as well.  I think that one of the immediate pretexts for

 2     this conflict was the deterioration of the internal political situation

 3     of the Serb Republic of the Krajina that preceded the elections for

 4     president of the republic.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just for my own information, when you were then

 6     removed as commander of the SVK, who then became the commander after you

 7     of the SVK?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Celeketic.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  I just wanted to complete that

10     section.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I had actually intended to deal with

12     these questions in greater detail a bit later because I think they are of

13     relevance to our trial.

14        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, we have yet another entry there, and I would just

15     like to put a brief question to you now and we will discuss it later.

16             It says that on the 12th of December, 1994, you were appointed by

17     decree of the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to the

18     position of head and also assistant head of the Army of Yugoslavia for

19     the land forces in that particular administration of the Army of

20     Yugoslavia.

21             General, did you ever actually perform those particular duties?

22        A.   I never held that position.  I never carried out those duties.

23        Q.   We are going to discuss the facts related to this entry later.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page in B/C/S,

25     please, the last page.  It's this page in English too -- no, it isn't.

Page 13006

 1     No.  The last page in English, please.  The next page, please.

 2        Q.   General, it says here that your professional military service was

 3     terminated by a decree of the president of the Federal Republic of

 4     Yugoslavia dated the 22nd of December, 1994, and that you were relieved

 5     of professional military service as of the 30th of December, 1994.  Is

 6     that when you were pensioned off, General, on that particular day, in

 7     fact?  Just briefly for the time being.  We are going to discuss that

 8     particular subject as well during your testimony.

 9        A.   This order on my retirement was communicated to me on the

10     17th of October, 1995.

11        Q.   Tell us one more thing:  Until the 17th of October, 1995, in

12     relation to the position that you had, the deputy supreme commander of

13     the SVK, did you hold any other position in any other army?

14        A.   A duty in terms of establishment?  Well, I didn't have that.  I

15     mean I did not hold an establishment position with a particular

16     establishment rank.  There wasn't an order appointing me to such a

17     position in the army.  What we mentioned a moment ago, the chief of the

18     administration of the -- for the infantry, there were some other duties,

19     though, that I did carry out.

20        Q.   In which army?

21        A.   Well, in the Serb Army of the Krajina.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we clear one point up here.  Part of the

24     question at page 13, starting from line 21, was that your professional

25     military service terminated on the 30th of December, 1994, by an order

Page 13007

 1     dated the 22nd of December of that same year.  Now, a little later you

 2     say this order was communicated to you on the 17th of October, 1995.

 3             My question to you is:  Between the 30th of December, 1994, and

 4     the 17th of October, 1995, what were you doing by way of work, if

 5     anything?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From a professional point of view,

 7     I was still deputy or assistant supreme commander for national security

 8     and international relations, and in that period of time, up until the

 9     people and army left the republic of the Serb Krajina, that is to say

10     until the 6th or 10th of December -- no, actually, the

11     10th of August, 1995, I performed that particular duty.

12             From the 10th of August and then up until sometime at the end of

13     September 1995, I was in Banja Luka, in Republika Srpska, and I did not

14     have any position whatsoever because the Republic of the Serb Krajina no

15     longer existed.

16             Towards the end of September 1995, I came to Belgrade.  I did not

17     have any position then either.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And how was this order communicated to you on the

19     17th of October, 1995?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was communicated to me

21     personally by Mr. Perisic.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was it by -- in written form or orally?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, he was given this

24     task by the Supreme Defence Council, to communicate this to us orally.

25     The orders about that were expressed in written form, of course.

Page 13008

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, I ask the question again.  Was the order

 2     communicated to you orally or in written form?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this order was

 4     communicated to me orally and the order, or rather, the decree of the

 5     president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in written form was given

 6     to me as well.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And did it retire you with effect from the

 8     30th of December, 1994?  You're getting it in 1995, but it retires you a

 9     year earlier; is that correct?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it's a question of

11     antedating the decision on retirement.  There was a legal --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, please don't anticipate my next

13     questions.  Just answer the question as I ask it.  Were you retired on

14     the 17th of October, 1995, with effect from the 30th of December, 1994?

15     Did the order say that in fact your term of retirement takes effect on

16     the 30th of December, 1994, even though you received it in October 1995?

17     You can say yes or no.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             Yes.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to go through all of these

22     questions later on with the witness, Your Honour, through specific

23     documents, but I understand your interest, of course.  Of course, I fully

24     understand your point.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... and what is

Page 13009

 1     being discussed must make logical sense to us, and if we don't

 2     understand, then we get to ask a question.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe that all in the

 4     courtroom know, but we were all on leave, there was court recess,

 5     et cetera.

 6        Q.   When you say that you came to Serbia on the 10th of August, 1995,

 7     what was it that happened in August 1995 that made you leave the

 8     Republic of the Serb Krajina?  Could you just tell us in one sentence.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think he was in Banja Luka, in the Republika

10     Srpska.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, yes, yes.  Yes.  That's

12     right.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 10th of August, I left the

14     territory of the Republic of the Serb Krajina after a general Croatian

15     offensive started on the 4th of August against the UN protected area,

16     that is to say, the Republic of the Serb Krajina.  On the 10th of August,

17     as His Honour said, I came to Banja Luka.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

19     microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking.  We can

20     barely hear him anyway.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the interpreter ask that when the

22     witness is speaking could all the mikes be switched off because they

23     don't hear him.  So when you've put your question, please switch off your

24     mike.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll do my best.  I'll

Page 13010

 1     make a maximum effort, although I have a bit of a problem with this

 2     machine in front of me.

 3        Q.   Let us now look at your personnel file in terms of the ranks you

 4     held, General.  Let us see your promotions, et cetera.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So let us look at B/C/S page 4 in

 6     this document, and in English let us see 0611-7591, page 1.  I will only

 7     deal with this last period that is relevant to our trial.

 8        Q.   These are your promotions as stated in your personnel file in the

 9     Army of Yugoslavia.  And it says here that on the 14th of February, 1992,

10     you got an exceptional promotion to the rank of infantry colonel; right?

11        A.   Yes, that is right.

12        Q.   Then it says below that by a decree of the president of the

13     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on the 10th of November, 1993, you were

14     promoted to the rank of major-general of the Army of Yugoslavia.

15             First of all, I'm going to ask you whether that is correct, what

16     is written here?

17        A.   Yes, that is correct.

18        Q.   Were you promoted previously or later to this same position of

19     major-general in the Serb Republic of the Krajina; and if so, do you know

20     perhaps when that happened?

21        A.   I was promoted to the rank of major-general of the Serb -- of the

22     Army of the Serb Republic of the Krajina towards the end of October 1992.

23     I cannot remember exactly.  That is to say, more than a year before than

24     what we see here in terms of the Army of Yugoslavia, major-general,

25     10th of November, 1993.  That was at the time when I was appointed

Page 13011

 1     commander of the Army of Serb Republic of the Krajina.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So Mr. Lukic was incorrect to say that you were

 3     made a major-general of the Army of Yugoslavia; you were actually made a

 4     major-general of the Army of Serbian Krajina?  Thanks.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on the 27th, or

 6     sometime in October 1992, I was promoted as major-general of the

 7     Serbian Army of the Krajina.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to avoid confusion, this decree

10     of the president of the FRY is the decree issued by President Lilic on

11     the 10th of November, 1993, promoting him to the rank of major-general of

12     the Army of Yugoslavia.  This is what we call verification, if you

13     recall.  I'm actually then going back to what happened previously in the

14     Serbian Army of the Krajina.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for the explanation.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I'm -- perhaps I interpreted

17     something erroneously, but that was the gist of what I read from the

18     document.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fortunately or unfortunately, this document is so

20     unreadable that I'm not even looking at it, so I can't even look at it.

21     There's nothing I can see there.  So I'm trying to make sure that what is

22     said between you and the witness is absolutely correct.  And where there

23     is a little discrepancy, that's why I keep interjecting, because I can't

24     verify from this document.

25             I see this is a Prosecution exhibit.  Do you have no better copy

Page 13012

 1     than this, Mr. Harmon?

 2             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, we have an excellent copy.  I have a

 3     hard copy here --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have an excellent copy?

 5             MR. HARMON:  We have an excellent copy.  I can give Your Honour,

 6     if you like, my hard copy or a spare hard copy we have.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just if we could upload it into the record because

 8     when we arrive at the judgement this is what we're going to rely on and

 9     it's hardly readable.

10             MR. HARMON:  My copy, Your Honour, I will say, on my monitor is

11     readable.  I'm not sure if there's a problem with Your Honour's monitor,

12     but mine's very legible.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Maybe the problem is with my monitor.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Harmon.  Mr. Registrar will

16     try and help me.

17             You can continue, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And we can finish with this last entry about your promotions in

20     your personnel file, and that is that by a decree of the president of the

21     FRY on the 31st of December, 1994, you're exceptionally promoted to the

22     rank of lieutenant-general.  This is again by decree of the president of

23     the FRY, Lilic, to the Army of Yugoslavia.  Before that, were you

24     promoted to the rank of lieutenant-general in the army -- the Serbian

25     Army of the Krajina and do you know when this was?

Page 13013

 1        A.   I was promoted to the rank of lieutenant-general in the Army of

 2     the Serbian Krajina sometime in the course of 1994.  I don't remember the

 3     exact date.  I don't have that order.

 4        Q.   Very well.  I have now completed my questions about your

 5     professional background.  I have a few other general questions.

 6             Have you ever testified before the Hague Tribunal?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   And I think that Mr. Harmon will not object to a leading question

 9     on this topic.  Twice the OTP interviewed you in the capacity of witness.

10     I think this was in October 2000 and February and March of 2001; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.  The first interview took place in

13     Banja Luka when the OTP investigators were still not allowed to come to

14     Serbia, and the second interview was also conducted at the time that you

15     mentioned.

16        Q.   General, how long have you known General Perisic?  Since when

17     have you known him?

18        A.   I've known General Perisic since 1989.

19        Q.   You were then serving in Koprivica; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And do you recall where he was at the time?

22        A.   I was commander of the 73rd Motorised Brigade in the

23     Koprivica Garrison at the time, and Mr. Perisic was in the artillery

24     school in Zadar, training commissioned and non-commissioned officers in

25     the artillery.

Page 13014

 1        Q.   Since we're going to hear a lot about meetings when he became the

 2     chief of the armed forces of Yugoslavia, I think in that period, in

 3     August 1993, did you see him?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the last time the witness made

 5     reference to a date was when he talked about 1989.  Now you are putting

 6     your question to him and you say "... in that period, in 1993,

 7     August 1993 ..." I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.  Just read

 8     from page 21.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I just think the

10     translation is bad and that's what's creating a problem.  In the period

11     from 1989 until August 1993 when General Perisic became the Chief of the

12     General Staff; that was my question.  Did they see each other in that

13     period.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what you should add in your question, 1993

15     when General Perisic became the commander of the General Staff.  Then we

16     know why you are asking -- you are putting the date 1993.  There's

17     nothing wrong with the translation; there's everything wrong with the

18     question.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I answer the

20     question now?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, sir, if you now understand it.  I didn't

22     understand it.  You may.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do understand the question now.

24             In 1989, I saw him on several occasions at an artillery

25     training-ground where I had my artillery unit to train in the artillery

Page 13015

 1     training centre.  My soldiers and cadets were there for training.  After

 2     that, General Perisic came to the north-western front command in Zagreb

 3     to the operations and training organ, and that was when I saw him perhaps

 4     two or three times, during 1989 and early 1990 this was.  From that time

 5     until August 1993, I did not see him at all.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Very well.  Now we're going to move to some direct questions, and

 8     that is for you to tell us briefly what I'm interested in when you were

 9     in Zagreb in the course of 1991 before you were sent to the education in

10     Belgrade.  What was the attitude or the relationship towards the

11     JNA officers in Zagreb and in Croatia, generally, if you can just briefly

12     tell us?

13        A.   As a consequence of the unrelenting propaganda, it was very

14     intense propaganda which would use seven insulting terms in the same

15     sentence, as the JNA and members of the JNA were considered as the

16     greatest enemies, of course when the commands and the units in the

17     barracks were thought of in the same way all of a sudden.

18        Q.   And what did you know at the time?  Was there any kind of secret

19     arming outside of the structure of the state organs, and how was it, and

20     what happened as far as you know?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I do think, Mr. Lukic, even though Mr. Harmon may

22     not be objecting, that that's a very leading question.  And I think

23     you're now beginning to talk about the beginning of the war, and I think

24     it's only fair that the witness begin to tell us what he knows.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree.

Page 13016

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you do, would you appreciate a break of

 2     30 minutes to rephrase your question and we come back?

 3             We'll take --

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best.  I will use my

 5     time as much as I can.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  We'll take a break and come back at

 7     quarter to 11.00.  Court adjourned.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I believe the parties are now ready to make

12     submissions on P33 and P39.

13             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:  Thank you very much.  During the recess, I was

16     apprised of the problem; I discussed the issue with Mr. Lukic; and we

17     have a proposal.  I understand that P33 and P39 both as presently in the

18     system contain sensitive information.  The proposal that I have and

19     that -- which Mr. Lukic agrees with is that we be granted permission to

20     upload redacted versions of P33 and P39.  We will take out the sensitive

21     information.  We will keep in the other information.  And it would be a

22     public document then, as redacted.

23             So if the Court gives us permission to upload new versions of P33

24     and P39, which I understood were draft transcripts and not the official

25     transcripts, then we will upload the official transcripts with the

Page 13017

 1     sensitive information redacted from it.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do I understand that to mean that in the system we

 3     are going to have two versions, the redacted version and unredacted

 4     version?

 5             MR. HARMON:  No --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Because currently we have an unredacted version

 7     but it is under seal.

 8             MR. HARMON:  My proposal would be that we put in a new -- we

 9     substitute new documents for P33 and P39.  The substituted documents

10     would be redacted, the sensitive information would be redacted out of it.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  My problem with that is that -- and the

12     Chamber is not apprised of the sensitive part.

13             MR. HARMON:  I see.  It was --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question really that came from Registry was:

15     Should we keep it under seal or should we not keep it under seal?

16             MR. HARMON:  Well, obviously if it contains sensitive

17     information, we should keep it under seal for the time being.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is under seal for the time being.

19             MR. HARMON:  Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, the question is:  Should it be under seal

21     permanently?

22             MR. HARMON:  Well, that's -- that's the rut.  It should not be

23     under seal permanently if it doesn't have the sensitive information in

24     it.  If we are permitted to upload a new version of P33 and P39 into the

25     system but -- having taken out the sensitive information relating to

Page 13018

 1     witnesses or identification factors that relate to protected witnesses,

 2     if we can remove that and upload then a redacted version of P33 and P39,

 3     then there's no reason why that can't be public.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is true, and I hear that that's the rut.  The

 5     flip side of that rut is that then the Chamber does not know the

 6     identity.  And we would like to know the identity when we do arrive at

 7     judgement; we would like to know who we are talking about.  And we

 8     undertake, if you permit us to keep the documents under seal permanently,

 9     we undertake not to reveal the sensitive information.

10             MR. HARMON:  Well, that's fine as far as the Prosecution is

11     concerned.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] From what I understood in my

14     conversation with Mr. Harmon is that for the needs of this trial the

15     information which is public is needed.  Mr. Harmon and I, as parties, are

16     not interested in the confidential information contained in that

17     document.  So if the parties agree, then the things that the parties do

18     not wish to present in the trial should not be of consequence to you

19     either.  If there was some items that were confidential but that were of

20     interest to Mr. Harmon, then there would be some point in keeping the

21     documents confidential.  But, actually, the confidential parts of those

22     documents are not relevant for this particular trial.  So in that sense,

23     this arrangement would then be quite appropriate.  At least that's how I

24     understood matters to stand.

25             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, if I may, I'm also -- what I've been

Page 13019

 1     told is what's contained in P33 and P39 is the -- on one of the pages,

 2     apparently, there's information that relates and identifies a --

 3     protected witnesses.  And what we're seeking to do is merely remove the

 4     page that has the sensitive witness identification from the respective

 5     exhibits.  The 92 ter packages don't relate to those protected witnesses

 6     whatsoever.  Apparently it was -- must have been a copying mistake or a

 7     copying error when they uploaded the document into court.  The

 8     transcript, I am told, on one of the pages, either the beginning or the

 9     last page, there was -- or the last page, there was the next witness who

10     must have appeared and whose identity was exposed in what is now P33 and

11     P39.

12             So the intent is merely to take off that last page that

13     identifies the next witness.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, if -- from the Chamber's point of view - and

15     here let me not even say from the Chamber's point of view, let me talk

16     for myself - I'm a bit slow on the uptake, and I find it very difficult

17     to comprehend documents which are redacted all over the show.  And I

18     would like to get the full picture.  My question is:  If you take off

19     that page, will I be able to get the full picture?

20             MR. HARMON:  I am told yes, you will be, because it's just one

21     side of a page that has the sensitive information.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I'm in your hands.

23             MR. HARMON:  I think the Registrar will confirm that,

24     Your Honour.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 13020

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I'm in your hands.  You may upload the

 2     redacted version.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 5             Can we call the witness, please.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will the parties advise the Chamber once they have

 8     uploaded that redacted version so that the Registrar might be advised

 9     accordingly.

10             MR. HARMON:  We will, Your Honour.  And then since they are

11     currently under seal, I am requesting that the redacted versions then not

12     be under seal but be public.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed they will be public.

14             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so ordered.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   General, in the old SFRY, what comprised the armed forces of the

20     country?

21        A.   There were two components of the armed forces:  The Yugoslav

22     People's Army and the Territorial Defence.

23        Q.   Outside of those components, would anybody be able to dispose

24     with the weapons; and if so, in which context, weapons and ammunition?

25        A.   There were units of the police as well.  They were armed and

Page 13021

 1     their reserve forces were also able to have weapons, of course only

 2     regular rifles, not any other kind of weapon.

 3        Q.   And were there any changes in relation to these formations after

 4     the multi-party elections in late 1980s and early 1990s?

 5        A.   At the time, I was serving in the then-Republic of Croatia.  And

 6     as an officer, I had information that according to the laws at the time

 7     there was illegal arming going on, organised and implemented by the new

 8     authorities in Croatia.

 9        Q.   Can you please tell us what was illegal about that arming and

10     what were the sources of it?

11        A.   Perhaps it would be best if I gave some examples.  At one point

12     in time, a plane landed at the Pleso Airport in Zagreb which contained

13     20.000 rifles.  We had information about this in the sense that the

14     weapons were being shipped by trailer trucks from Croatia, that it was

15     secretly obtained, and that it was being distributed on the basis of

16     party affiliation.  And it was being given to newly admitted members of

17     the Ministry of the Interior of Croatia.  There was also information that

18     the weapons were arriving from Bulgaria, Argentina, and from some other

19     countries.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  I would like you to clarify your answer,

21     Mr. Novakovic.  You told us that a plane landed in the Pleso Airport in

22     Zagreb containing 20.000 rifles.  And then you say you also had

23     information that the weapons were being shipped by trailer trucks from

24     Croatia.  Are you suggesting that they were shipped by trailer trucks

25     from Pleso Airport into some other part outside Croatia, or what are you

Page 13022

 1     saying?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, if

 3     that's how I put it.  As far as the aeroplane is concerned, it landed at

 4     Pleso Airport and the -- a unit of the Yugoslav People's Army seized that

 5     shipment of weapons.  The trailer trucks brought the weapons across the

 6     border from the neighbouring country of Hungary.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're talking about two different shipments?  The

 8     one shipment came by plane, another shipment came by trucks across the

 9     border.  If you could please -- yeah.  Okay.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And as you said earlier, this component of the armed forces, the

15     TO, did it also have weapons and ammunition, and what happened to that in

16     that period?

17        A.   As far as I understood, because of the deteriorating political

18     situation a decision was made at the level of the -- of Yugoslavia, and

19     the Federal Secretariat for National Defence that was in charge of that

20     area issued an order that weapons of the Territorial Defence should be

21     transferred to depots under the control of the Yugoslav People's Army.

22     The same thing was done with the weapons which were intended for the

23     reserve forces of the Ministry of the Interior.

24        Q.   I already referred to the period.  Can you please tell us

25     approximately the period to which this refers to, what you just

Page 13023

 1     described, approximately, if you can just tell us.

 2        A.   This was -- this was in the summer of 1999 -- actually, it was

 3     the end of summer and early autumn of 1990.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not 1999?

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  The witness

 6     corrected it.

 7        Q.   You corrected yourself, sir; right?  It's 1990?

 8        A.   Yes, that is correct, 1990.

 9        Q.   And what was the attitude of the political leadership of Croatia

10     in relation to these decisions for the TO weapons and ammunition to be

11     placed in JNA depots?

12        A.   They objected to this decision.  But as far as I know and as far

13     as I was able to find out, the decision was implemented.

14        Q.   And what was the position of the leadership of the Republic of

15     Croatia towards the functioning of the Territorial Defence at that time?

16        A.   At the time, the Croatian leadership aspired to simply turn the

17     Territorial Defence into a republican army.  However, the commander of

18     the Territorial Defence of Croatia, General Novoselic, who was an ethnic

19     Croat, refused that because the way he understood it this was something

20     that was counter to the provisions of the constitution.

21        Q.   Were organised armed forces set up in Croatia; and if so, when?

22        A.   From that time onwards, armed forces were being created in the

23     territory of Croatia.  According to the then-constitution of Yugoslavia

24     and Croatia and the laws that were in place, these formations were

25     paramilitary.  These oversized units were first set up within the

Page 13024

 1     Ministry of the Interior, and then a formation was established that was

 2     called the National Guards Corps.

 3        Q.   General, have you heard of Imre Agotic?

 4        A.   Mr. Agotic was a colonel of the Yugoslav People's Army, a

 5     security officer who was serving in the command of the 5th Air Corps in

 6     Zagreb.  He lived in the same building that I lived in, and we

 7     were - perhaps I could even say - friends.

 8        Q.   How long did he stay on in the JNA -- or, actually, I don't want

 9     to lead.  Did he stay on in the JNA throughout?  If not, what happened to

10     him?

11        A.   As far as I know, I remember that on the 23rd of July, 1991, we

12     were in Sisak together at a celebration commemorating -- no, no, it was

13     in 1990, the 23rd of July, 1990.  We attended the commemoration of the

14     day when the uprising against the occupier started, and that had happened

15     in 1941.  This was a date that had been commemorated throughout the

16     existence of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Later on - I

17     cannot say exactly when - but at any rate it was in 1991, in the

18     beginning of 1991 at the latest, Mr. Agotic joined these newly

19     established armed forces that were under the control of the new

20     authorities in Croatia.

21        Q.   Do you perhaps know whether he held a particular position within

22     the ZNG later, Mr. Agotic?

23        A.   I don't know what position he held in this National Guards Corps

24     as it was called, the ZNG.  However, I know that later on during the war

25     he was in the military office of the president of Croatia,

Page 13025

 1     President Tudjman.

 2        Q.   Does the name of General Stipetic mean anything to you, and can

 3     you just tell us in a few words whether he stayed on in the JNA; and if

 4     not, where did he go?

 5        A.   General Stipetic was General Perisic's boss in Zagreb for a while

 6     too.  He was my boss as well during 1991, that is, while we were together

 7     in the command of the north-west field in Zagreb.  It commanded most of

 8     Croatia, excluding Osijek, then part of Slovenia and Bosnia.

 9        Q.   At one point did he leave the JNA, and where did he end up?

10        A.   Sometime in the summer, June or July 1991, this command of ours

11     in Zagreb, in the centre of Zagreb, was surrounded by sniper shooters and

12     the armed forces of these newly established units that were under the

13     control of the new Croatian authorities.  General Stipetic was on leave,

14     on vacation.  At one point, while he was on vacation, these forces

15     carried out an armed attack, a fire attack, against the command building.

16     On the next day, General Stipetic --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was surprised.  He saw what the

19     effects of the attack were, and then it was publicly declared that he had

20     joined the new Croatian armed forces, as he had put it.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, we -- it does interest us from a

22     historical purpose -- point of view to hear all this detail, but may I

23     implore you to please listen to the question and try to be as brief as

24     possible in answering the question.

25             The question was:  "At one point did he leave the JNA, and where

Page 13026

 1     did he end up?"

 2             Yes, he did leave the JNA.  He ended up being part of this group.

 3             Then we follow you nicely.  You see?  Okay.  Thank you so much.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   At the time, were you aware of any secret arming of the Serb

 7     people in the territory of Croatia?

 8        A.   I think that there was such arming.  First of all, in these Serb

 9     areas, guards were organised and patrols.  They used sports weapons and

10     hunting weapons.  At one point in time, it became noticeable that some

11     old types of weaponry appeared.  To tell you the truth, I didn't know

12     exactly where that had come from.  That is what I can say about this

13     secret arming.

14        Q.   At the time, was there any official mobilisation; and if so, who

15     responded to these calls?

16        A.   At the time, the Yugoslav People's Army tried to mobilise some

17     war-time units.  When I say "war-time units," that means units that do

18     not exist in peace time.  When necessary, they are developed in

19     accordance with mobilisation plans.  Call-up papers were sent out, but it

20     was mainly Serbs who responded to them.

21        Q.   Do you know whether these Serbs who had been mobilised were being

22     armed by the JNA; and if so, what happened with those weapons?

23        A.   There was a normal procedure involved.  Once these people

24     reported to where they were supposed to report, as stated in the call-up

25     papers, they were issued with a uniform.  Most military conscripts had

Page 13027

 1     uniforms anyway, so they were supposed to be issued with uniforms and

 2     weapons.

 3        Q.   General, from your point of view, what was the reason for this

 4     extensive arming in the way you had described it?  What kind of

 5     inter-ethnic tensions were there in the area, if any?

 6        A.   Mr. Lukic, please put a more specific question to me.  Are you

 7     asking me about the Serb side and the Croatian side or just one of them?

 8        Q.   I had put a general question in -- on purpose, but I fully concur

 9     with what you said just now.  There should be a distinction.

10             What were the intentions of the Croatian side when they were

11     arming themselves as you had described it?

12        A.   The intentions were to create a fully Independent State, to be

13     separated from Yugoslavia; if necessary, even by resorting to armed

14     force.

15        Q.   On what kind of information do you base this fact that you just

16     communicated to us?

17        A.   I had this kind of information as a JNA officer on the one hand,

18     and on the other hand everyone who followed political developments in the

19     media were aware of that too because the Croatian authorities had

20     publicly declared this goal of theirs.

21        Q.   In your view, what were the reasons why the citizens of Serb

22     ethnicity started arming themselves in Croatia at the time?

23        A.   The Serb people in Croatia -- well, perhaps I cannot be totally

24     impartial because I belong to the same people.  There was a historic

25     memory in the minds of these people, and they remembered what happened to

Page 13028

 1     them when they were an Independent State of Croatia.  Between 1941 and

 2     1945 these people were exposed to genocide, drastic genocide.  There was

 3     fear too, but there was also a realistic assessment as to what would

 4     follow and what would happen to them if the Croatian side is armed on the

 5     basis of party affiliation and party arming and if they remain unarmed.

 6        Q.   Were there open clashes?

 7        A.   Could you please ask me now in terms of the exact time-period

 8     you're referring to.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me ask you.  In answering the last question,

10     you referred to a historical memory of 1941.  The question is:  Now, in

11     1990/1991, why did the Serbs arm themselves?  Can you just answer that

12     question.  Why did they respond to the mobilisation by the JNA?  Forget

13     about 1941.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the one hand, there

15     is the mass arming of Croats.  In Croatian villages, gun-fire was heard

16     from automatic weapons, that is to say that they did have automatic

17     weapons.  Serbs, only Serbs, responded to the mobilisation call-up of the

18     JNA.  Croats were not responding.  So already there were two sides

19     involved, and conditions were being created for an armed conflict.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]... is your --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for -- therefore, it was obvious

22     that the people felt that an armed conflict would happen, the kind they

23     still have in their historic memory from the 1941-1945 period.  If I'm

24     not being too extensive, I can give you an example.  I can --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no, I don't need an example.  Do I understand

Page 13029

 1     your short answer to be the Serbs armed themselves -- the JNA mobilised

 2     and the Serb responded to this call-up in response to the secret arming

 3     by the Croats?  Is that your short answer?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your help,

 5     Your Honour.  That's the way it was.  And that is what is important when

 6     we discuss this at greater length, if we do so.  The Serb side believe

 7     that the JNA would, if they respond to mobilisation call-ups, would carry

 8     out its constitutional role, and that is to say the protection of the

 9     constitutional order within which they will continue to live safely.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             Yes, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   General, do you know whether there was any incident in Plitvice;

14     if so, did you personally participate in it in any way?

15        A.   During the Catholic Easter of 1991, at Plitvice there was a clash

16     between the members of the special units of the Croatian Ministry of the

17     Interior and the local Serbs.  At the time, I was serving in the command

18     of the theatre of operations in Zagreb.  I was ordered to go with

19     General Raseta and a logistics officer and an intelligence officer to go

20     to Plitvice to set up an operative group of the Yugoslav People's Army

21     and to separate the two parties that were in conflict.

22        Q.   Did you actually do that?  Did you act in accordance with that?

23     You said that you were given that task.  Did you act accordingly?

24        A.   Of course.

25        Q.   At the time, General - you said that this is April 1991 - what

Page 13030

 1     was the attitude of the JNA vis-à-vis these conflicts?  What was the

 2     position of the JNA in relation to these conflicts?  I believe that the

 3     case of Plitvice was not an isolated one.

 4        A.   We were establishing a buffer zone between the conflicting

 5     parties, and we tried to prevent an escalation of the conflicts.

 6     Literally, physically, we were separating the two parties.

 7        Q.   At one point in time did the JNA actively take part in the

 8     conflict; if so, could you tell us what period that was and what the

 9     reason was?

10        A.   The Yugoslav People's Army at one point actively joined the

11     conflict.  The initial reasons, the reasons which led to the first

12     instances of the JNA actively taking part in the conflict, were attempts

13     to deblock the units of the commands and institutions of the

14     Yugoslav People's Army which were being blockaded by the Croatian

15     paramilitary formations.  At their positions in barracks, commands,

16     depots, their electricity supply was cut off, they were prevented from

17     getting food and water-supplies, and were exposed to fire.  They were

18     threatened with destruction.  So these were the initial reasons due to

19     which the Yugoslav People's Army joined the armed conflict.

20        Q.   I don't want to go into details, but can you just please tell us

21     when these attacks on the barracks began, approximately.  And perhaps you

22     can just mention some of those cases without going into too much detail.

23        A.   This began in the summer of 1991, and perhaps it would be best to

24     give you the example of Vukovar which was presented in quite a different

25     form, actually.  The conflicts began with an attempt of the

Page 13031

 1     Yugoslav People's Army to deblock the barracks of the JNA in Vukovar.  A

 2     friend of mine happened to be in that barracks.  For 36 days, they

 3     resisted with major casualties and they were without bread for 21 days.

 4     I was also witness of such an attack in Zagreb on a unit which was going

 5     to relieve the guards of the theatre operations command, and it was

 6     attacked while it was crossing the bridge over the river.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the last sentence

 8     of what the witness said.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreter didn't catch the last sentence of

10     what the witness said.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, could you please repeat the last sentence.  I apologise

13     to the interpreters.

14        A.   There were many such attacks, and if necessary I can list them.

15     But I think that they are well-known.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, could you just repeat the last

17     sentence of your last answer.  You were telling us about the Vukovar

18     attack, so don't go to many other examples.  Just finish off this

19     example.  If you remember.  If you don't remember the answer -- the last

20     sentence, that's fine.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recall saying that there were

22     many such attacks.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   General, you're not a historian and I'm not asking that of you,

Page 13032

 1     but do you know when the referendum of the Serbs in the Krajina was held

 2     and what was the referendum question and the decision?  If you know when

 3     this happened or perhaps Mr. Harmon would agree that it's okay for me to

 4     give the time-frame; that way we will not be in dispute about it.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Well, I was about to object because it was a

 6     compound question.  I thought we should take each question one at a time.

 7     I would rather see if the witness recalls rather than have Mr. Lukic

 8     testify, and I would ask that he ask one question at a time.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which is why you called the witness, to come and

10     testify, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree, absolutely.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this was sometime in

13     late 1990.  I did not take part in the referendum, so I don't really

14     remember it clearly.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Very well.

17        A.   But I think that this was at that time, and the referendum

18     question had to do with whether you wanted to stay in Yugoslavia.

19        Q.   Are you aware that at one point in time the Krajina milicija was

20     formed?  Do you know who formed that institution?

21        A.   As far as I know - and I would like to say that at that time I

22     was not in that structure; I belonged to the Yugoslav People's Army

23     then - but the Krajina police was formed by the new authorities of the

24     Serb autonomous region of the Krajina and it existed as such.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was the Krajina police the same thing as the

Page 13033

 1     Krajina milicija?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   General, let's now deal with this period when your schooling

 6     for -- at the national defence school was suspended and you became part

 7     of the operations group command.  Could you please tell us who formed it

 8     and what was the task of that operations group.  We're talking about

 9     September 1991.  That is what we saw in the entry from your personnel

10     file, isn't it?

11        A.   The centre of military higher schools in Belgrade, I was issued

12     an order to join this operations group.  We were all assembled, and that

13     is when I saw that the commander of the Operations Group 1 for Kordun and

14     Banija was General Koturovic, who up until then was the chief of the

15     Artillery Administration in the General Staff of the Yugoslav People's

16     Army.  The Chief of Staff and his deputy in that period was Colonel

17     Rakovic.  I was assigned as the operations officer in that command.  That

18     command had about 15 to 20 officers, and I know that all ethnic groups

19     were represented in that group.

20        Q.   What was the assignment of the operations group?

21        A.   Perhaps it would be useful if we could see a map of the Banija

22     and Kordun area.  I don't know if you deem that necessary, but I think

23     the answer would be better if we did have the map.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at D164 on the screen,

25     please.  Perhaps the map will create some confusion.  Perhaps we should

Page 13034

 1     look at P469.  This is the map of Yugoslavia, the "Times" map of

 2     Yugoslavia.

 3        Q.   General, you hail from the Kordun and Banija area; isn't that

 4     right?  We mentioned that when we spoke about your CV.

 5        A.   Yes, I come from Kordun.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]... in Kordun?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't understand you, sorry.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is Vrginmost in Kordun?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, the usher will help you and you can use the special pen

13     to indicate where the Banija and Kordun area is on this map.  Can you

14     circle it, approximately.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   If you can indicate -- if you can mark that area circled with

17     blue with the letter B.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Very well.  So you marked Kordun with a K and Banija with a B.

20        A.   Some units of the level of the brigade were there, and the

21     TO units were also mobilised.  The command which was responsible for that

22     area was the command of the 10th Corps of the Yugoslav People's Army.

23     That command was blocked in Zagreb and was not able to get to this area.

24     It was encircled by the armed formations of Croatia and was not able to

25     reach this area, and that's why there was a need to form a command that

Page 13035

 1     would be able to command the TO and the JNA units in this area.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] perhaps we can save and admit this

 3     document so that we don't lose the information -- actually, for now we

 4     are finished with this map, so I would seek that it be admitted, please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May this document please be given an exhibit

 6     number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 8     Exhibit D433.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just have an intervention for the

11     transcript, Your Honours.  On page 42, line 8, the witness said, At the

12     level of the JNA brigades were in that area and TO units.

13             I just want to be precise.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   General, when you say the TO, do you know if the SAO Krajina TO

17     was formed at the time, and were those units of the TO those units that

18     had that title at the time?

19        A.   If we're talking about September 1991 when this command was

20     formed, the Operations Group 1 command, at the time there was still no

21     Territorial Defence of the SAO Krajina.  There was the

22     Yugoslav People's Army and there were units of the Territorial Defence

23     which were part of the Yugoslav armed forces.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at a document,

25     please, that is Exhibit P1196.  This -- the Prosecution sought to admit

Page 13036

 1     only some articles from this document.  We're talking about the Law on

 2     Defence of the Serbian autonomous region of the Krajina, and we can see

 3     that the law was adopted on the 2nd of December, 1991.

 4             Your Honours, since this exhibit is quite big but the Prosecution

 5     sought to tender only some articles from the law, I just wanted to

 6     comment on a couple of the articles.  I have prepared a draft translation

 7     in English.  I would like to read it in the courtroom, though, so that I

 8     don't have to give you a draft translation.  And we could perhaps use the

 9     exhibit in this way.  It's only three articles that I will be dealing

10     with; otherwise, I would have to give you a hard copy so that you can

11     also follow the draft translation that we had done.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't think I understand what you are saying,

13     Mr. Lukic.  We -- you're talking about two different things.  You're

14     complaining that the Prosecution sought to admit only parts of this

15     document.  Do you want to admit the entire document?  Let's deal with

16     that first.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And do you want to admit certain parts that

19     were not admitted by the Prosecution?  Right.

20             Now, are those parts translated?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have a hard copy of the

22     translation, but this has not been uploaded into e-court yet.  So I

23     thought perhaps I can recommend for me just to simply read aloud, and

24     then that part of the transcript could be relevant for you, so that then

25     we don't have to translate them and upload those additional articles.

Page 13037

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question was:  The documents that are already

 2     uploaded, the part that you want to deal with, has not been translated,

 3     there's no translation of it?  Now, I think you must show the Defence

 4     your draft --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  The Prosecutor.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon, the Prosecution - your draft

 7     and then seek to tender it, and we'll have to mark it for identification

 8     until you get us an official translation.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't think you should just read it, because

11     then that's you testifying and not the witness.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree.  I agree.  I agree,

13     Your Honours.  I have prepared a hard copy draft translation, and perhaps

14     then we can comment on these articles or we can have the witness comment

15     on these articles.

16             I'm going to leave this topic for later, and I can see that this

17     was given to the interpreters.  This is not that essential to me, and

18     perhaps we can even upload it in the meantime.  This is not that

19     important right now for me.

20        Q.   General, when was this Krajina TO formed, do you know?  And what

21     was its relationship to the JNA?

22        A.   The staffs of the TO of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina,

23     after the Republic of the Serbian Krajina was formed on the

24     19th of December, 1991, and then after that, in 1992, these staffs were

25     formed.  However, these were staffs that were neither here nor there.

Page 13038

 1     This meant that those TO staffs did not command any of the units.  They

 2     didn't have any connection with any of the units or communications.  They

 3     did not provide logistical support to those units.  They didn't issue

 4     orders to those units, and the units did not report back to them.  And

 5     this was because everything in that area, until the withdrawal of the

 6     Yugoslav People's Army in May 1992, was subordinated to the commands of

 7     the operation groups of the Yugoslav People's Army.

 8        Q.   When you say "units," you are referring to TO units, aren't you?

 9     That's the distinction that you're making between the staffs and the

10     units; right?

11        A.   JNA units, of course, and also, of course, units of the

12     Territorial Defence, in response to your question that is.

13        Q.   In your view, what was the point of these TO staffs when they did

14     not have what every staff is supposed to have?  Who established them and

15     with what interest in mind?

16        A.   In my view at the time - and not only in my view - the

17     establishment of these staffs was an element in the political rivalry

18     between Mr. Martic and Mr. Babic.  Mr. Martic at the time had under his

19     control the milicija of the Krajina, whereas Mr. Babic - as he wished to

20     strengthen his own position within that rivalry - then established staffs

21     that were manned by retired officers.  I am not aware of a single

22     active-duty JNA officer on any one of these staffs.  He established these

23     staffs from the ranks of retired officers that were loyal to him in his

24     belief.

25        Q.   Please take a bit of water; it will clear your throat.

Page 13039

 1             What was the attitude of the JNA then towards the leadership of

 2     the Serb Krajina; Babic, Martic, and Hadzic?

 3        A.   I would say, on the basis of my own experience, one of ignoring.

 4        Q.   General --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was your -- am I right to say your question was:

 6     What was the attitude of the JNA then towards the leadership of the Serb

 7     Krajina ..." and by "Serb Krajina" you mean Babic, Martic, and Hadzic?

 8     Oh, okay.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Specifically at that time.

10        Q.   General, have you heard of the Vance Plan?

11        A.   Yes, I have.

12        Q.   What can you say to us?  What was the Vance Plan?  When it

13     signed?  Let's do it one thing at a time.  What is the Vance Plan and

14     when was it signed?

15        A.   As far as I know, the Vance Plan was a plan to overcome the

16     conflicts that came into being in the area of the Krajina.

17        Q.   Do you know who it was that signed the Vance Plan?

18        A.   For me, that was a document of the United Nations.  I am not in a

19     position to say who all the signatories were.  I know that the political

20     representatives, as they were, such as they were, of the Republic of the

21     Serb Krajina took part in its implementation; and I also know that in its

22     formulation the representatives of the SFRY also took part.  And, of

23     course, representatives of Croatia as well as one of the parties involved

24     in the conflict.

25        Q.   Do you know whether President Milosevic participated in the

Page 13040

 1     negotiations and the acceptance of the Vance Plan at all, the

 2     then-president of Serbia?

 3        A.   I know as much as anyone else knows, whoever followed the media

 4     at the time, that by virtue of his political authority he took part in

 5     its creation and he contributed on the Serb side to have the plan

 6     accepted.

 7        Q.   Do you know what the position of the leadership of the

 8     Republic of the Serb Krajina was in view of the acceptance of that plan?

 9        A.   As far as I know, Mr. Babic was explicitly against that plan.

10     First of all, due to the fact that what is being referred to is the

11     involvement of UN forces in Croatia; also because of the fact that

12     UNPROFOR was not supposed to be at the line of conflict and to separate

13     the conflicting parties.  As far as I know, he thought that such a plan,

14     although it said that it did not prejudge a political solution, in a way

15     it did so.  I know with certainty that pressure was brought to bear and

16     that ultimately he was replaced.

17        Q.   General, to the best of your knowledge, what was the mandate of

18     UNPROFOR according to the Vance Plan?  First of all, what was created

19     according to the Vance Plan?  Was something new created in the territory

20     of Croatia?

21             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to that compound

22     question.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Lukic, I think by the nod of your head you admit that your

25     question is compound.  Could you ask it simply.  Make it a simple

Page 13041

 1     question.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I assume I shouldn't ask for a

 3     break now because I should complete this subject before the break,

 4     shouldn't I?

 5        Q.   General --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We were just about to give you that time.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   General, could you just tell us in a brief sentence, to the best

 9     of your knowledge, what was it that the Vance Plan brought?

10        A.   All right.  Let's say that the nature of the question has been

11     changed now.  The essence was to establish a zone under the protection of

12     the United Nations and that protection forces should be brought into that

13     zone, UN protection forces.  What I viewed as the most important thing

14     within this mandate was to prevent armed conflicts and for the population

15     in those areas under the protection of the UN should live without fear of

16     any kind of conflict.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that we can now take the

19     break, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at half past

21     12.00.  Court adjourned.

22                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13042

 1        Q.   General, the last question that you responded to had to do with

 2     the tasks of UNPROFOR in accordance with the Vance Plan.  So you

 3     responded to that.  Tell me, do you remember when it was that UNPROFOR

 4     was deployed in the territory of the UNPAs?

 5        A.   That was in the early spring of 1992.

 6        Q.   Tell us, did UNPROFOR carry out this task as envisaged by the

 7     Vance Plan?  What is your view on that?

 8        A.   I think that UNPROFOR was resolved to carry out these tasks.  I

 9     have no reason to doubt that.  However, very soon in practice it became

10     clear that this kind of UNPROFOR deployment, according to the ink-stain

11     principle and without going to the line of separation itself, was not

12     good and it did not prevent conflicts, or rather, it did not ensure the

13     implementation of that part of that mandate which required that all the

14     population there should not live in fear from attacks.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  According to what principle?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, UNPROFOR was deployed

17     in accordance with the ink-blot principle.  UNPROFOR was deployed in

18     certain limited areas within the UNPAs.  Its mandate was not as it should

19     have been in my view, in my assessment; namely, they should have been

20     deployed along the separation line.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

22             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, please.

24        Q.   What about the armed formations that were in the territory of the

25     UNPAs; what was it that the Vance Plan envisaged, and what was done in

Page 13043

 1     that regard?

 2        A.   The Vance Plan envisaged that the UNPAs should be demilitarised.

 3     That means that the Territorial Defence that had stayed on as armed

 4     formations after the withdrawal of the JNA should be disarmed and they

 5     should hand-over their weapons to depots that had double keys.  That is

 6     to say that one key was supposed to be kept by the UNPROFOR commands and

 7     the other key was to be kept by Territorial Defence staffs that existed.

 8     However, the units had been disbanded, and the weapons were under double

 9     key, as it were.

10             As for armed persons, this plan envisaged that the regular police

11     should stay on in that area.

12        Q.   Was action taken in accordance with that plan?  Is that what was

13     actually done in relation to arms, ammunition, and the disarming of armed

14     formations?

15        A.   Yes, that is what was done.  I don't know whether you have a

16     report here of a UN official.  No, his name was Marrack Goulding.  He

17     sent a report at that point in time either to the Security Council or the

18     Secretary-General of the UN, but he did state in that report that the

19     Serb side had complied.

20        Q.   General, in this period after the start and the implementation of

21     the Vance Plan, that is to say from the spring of 1992 when UNPROFOR was

22     established and deployed, did you personally have contact with UNPROFOR

23     representatives?

24        A.   Yes, I did have contact with UNPROFOR representatives.

25        Q.   With who -- with whom did you personally have contact?

Page 13044

 1        A.   I had contact with UNPROFOR officers in the then-Sector North.

 2     That happened quite frequently.  And I also had contacts with

 3     General Nambiar of India, who was UNPROFOR commander at the time.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us what kind of relationship you had with

 5     General Nambiar and what kind of co-operation?

 6        A.   I don't know.  If I were to describe our relationship, that would

 7     mean that we had ongoing contacts.  I can just say what the nature of my

 8     meetings with General Nambiar was, if that is what you're interested in,

 9     Mr. Lukic.

10        Q.   Yes, yes.

11        A.   It seems to me that General Nambiar was very correct, fair, in

12     terms of understanding the UNPROFOR mandate and in his attitude towards

13     us as well, from our point of view.  I think - and I remember that very

14     well - that at least in contacts with our side General Nambiar also

15     viewed possible problems due to the employment of UNPROFOR units as it

16     actually was.  At the time, at the same time, General Nambiar never

17     raised as a problem the question of whether our side was complying with

18     the requirements of the Vance Plan.

19        Q.   Did you see Mr. Kirudja?

20        A.   Yes, I did see that gentleman as well.

21        Q.   And from your contacts with him, are you able to tell us what his

22     position was regarding your implementation of your obligations from the

23     Vance-Owen Plan?

24        A.   All that I can say about the UNPROFOR commander, Mr. Nambiar, is

25     something that I cannot say would apply to Mr. Kirudja.  It was the

Page 13045

 1     assessment of all of us who contacted -- were in contact with Mr. Kirudja

 2     from the Serb side was that Mr. Kirudja was hostile towards our side.

 3     This was first of all reflected in the demands that he set, in political

 4     terms first of all.  Well, I can summarise the conclusions from a

 5     conversation that he had with our side.  He set off immediately and in

 6     all contacts with us what the political solution would be.  He was

 7     prejudiced in a way, and it was our conclusion that Mr. Kirudja already

 8     saw us in Croatia.

 9        Q.   General, have you ever heard of the term "Posebne Jedinice

10     Milicije," special units of the police, and what is that?

11        A.   Of course.  Of course I have heard the term "Posebne Jedinice

12     Milicije," PJM, special police units.  But I cannot answer that in one

13     sentence.

14        Q.   Well, I didn't ask you to do that.  Can you please explain what

15     you know about that, what it is, and police give me your complete answer

16     on this term.

17             Perhaps I can be precise, because this term is used in documents

18     and by interpreters.  I said "Posebne Jedinice Milicije," and I used

19     the -- and I would like to refer to the special abbreviation which is

20     used for these units in documents and that is PJM.

21        A.   When we're talking about the term "Posebne Jedinice Milicije," I

22     would first like to point to the fact that these Posebne Jedinice

23     Milicije existed in the former Yugoslavia before the war, and they were

24     part of the Federal Ministry of the Interior, and as part of the

25     republican ministries of the interior of all the socialist republics of

Page 13046

 1     former Yugoslavia.

 2             In essence and by the type of training, equipment, and the

 3     assignments they were issued, these were anti-terrorist units.  These

 4     units were used for more serious forms of threats to security, and they

 5     exist in all police forces of numerous countries in the world, and these

 6     units exist in Serbia today and are also part of the Ministry of the

 7     Interior.  That's what I can say about that.  The Posebne Jedinice

 8     Milicije which we formed in 1992 in the Republic of Serbian Krajina were

 9     formed following our awareness that the UNPROFOR will not be on the

10     confrontation lines and that the people - and I would like to emphasise

11     that - if the people were to stay and live in those areas at all, we had

12     to find a way to form some kind of shield, curtain, establish some kind

13     of control on the lines towards Croatia which were aligned in combat

14     lines towards the UNPAs.  So we needed to have some kind of police force

15     which would guarantee security to that population, and this is why these

16     PJMs were formed.

17        Q.   And to whom were these PJMs subordinated?

18        A.   The PJMs were subordinated to the Ministry of the Interior of the

19     Republic of the Serbian Krajina which had a special administration as an

20     organisational unit in charge of these PJMs.

21        Q.   Who was the minister of the interior of the Republic of the

22     Serbian Krajina at the time?

23        A.   Mr. Martic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at a document on the

25     screen, please.  This is a document from the financial file of

Page 13047

 1     Witness Novakovic, and it's on the Defence 65 ter list, 00182D.

 2        Q.   This is a document of the 30th of September, 1992, and I would

 3     like your comment on the document, General, please.  What is this

 4     document?  Why was it issued?

 5        A.   This is actually my agreement to be deployed in the PJM.  It's

 6     dated of the 30th of September, and I was already carrying out those

 7     duties as of the 2nd of August of that year, and I remember that very

 8     well.

 9        Q.   Can you look at the bottom of the document, the last sentence:

10             "The said request may be used only for the purpose of regulating

11     the status in the service ..."

12             And it's confirmed by -- I'm putting some questions to you about

13     your service status.  General, when did the JNA leave the territory of

14     the Republic of the Serbian Krajina?

15        A.   In mid-May 1992.

16        Q.   And do you know when the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the

17     Army of Yugoslavia were formed?

18        A.   I think it was either in May or April of that same year.

19        Q.   After the JNA left the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, who did

20     you receive your salary from until you retired?

21        A.   After I left the Republic of the Serbian Krajina --

22        Q.   Well, from the forming of the FRY and the Army of Yugoslavia,

23     after they left the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, who paid your

24     salary?

25        A.   Well, it was very difficult, let me tell you, Mr. Lukic.  So I

Page 13048

 1     can tell you how it was.

 2        Q.   Yes, that is what I'm asking you to do.

 3        A.   Sometime from the time that I left the national defence school in

 4     Belgrade until I returned from the breakthrough of the corridor, this is

 5     sometime -- I came back sometime in July.  So up until August 1992, I did

 6     not receive a salary from anyone.  And I heard later that they wanted to

 7     suspend my salary because they said they didn't know where I was.  So

 8     this paper here is an official confirmation for the financial organs in

 9     Belgrade, I guess, of my whereabouts.  And from that time on until the

10     time that I retired, I received my salary from the Army of Yugoslavia.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Novakovic, you said:

12             "So up until August 1992, I did not receive" my "salary ..."

13             Starting from when?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the 27th of September, 1991,

15     when I left the School for National Defence to go to the command of

16     Operations Group 1 in Kordun and Banija.  The salary was not paid

17     directly to me, and in the area where I was there was no place to go

18     where you could collect your salary.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say it was not paid directly to you, what

20     do you mean?  Was it paid indirectly?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The salary was on my account.  It

22     was deposited into my account.  All I'm saying is that I was practically

23     unable to take it, and I did not take it.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So it was not correct of you to say "Up until

25     August 1992, I did not receive a salary from anyone."  You did receive a

Page 13049

 1     salary; you just could not access it?  It was there in your account, but

 2     you just couldn't access it.  So you were paid during that period?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes.  That is correct.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By whom were you paid?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise if I was not precise in

 6     the way I said it, yes.  That is correct.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By whom were you paid during that period?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The salary was deposited to my

 9     account.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By whom?  That's -- my question is:  By whom?  Who

11     was the authority who was paying you?  Who was your boss?  Who was your

12     employer?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My employer was still, as far as

14     salary is concerned, the Army of Yugoslavia.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And after -- after August 1992 you

16     continued to be paid by the Army of Yugoslavia; no longer the JNA this

17     time, but now the VJ?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

20             Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Other than issuing your salary, was the Army of Yugoslavia in any

23     other way your employer?

24        A.   No, not in any other way.

25        Q.   One more question related to what we were saying earlier, and let

Page 13050

 1     us clarify.  At the beginning we saw and you were shown a document

 2     indicating that you were pensioned off in December 1994 but the document

 3     is from October 1995.  So from December 1994 until the decision was made

 4     in 1995, did you receive a salary?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.  I received a salary as an active-service officer of

 6     the Army of Yugoslavia until October 1995.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you were not pensioned off as at the

 8     30th of December, 1994, unless you are saying you received both a salary

 9     and a pension for that period?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honour.  I didn't

11     receive a salary and a pension.  Earlier when you asked me -- I'm

12     actually uncertain how to answer you and to be correct.  As of the

13     17th of October, 1995, I didn't know that I was retired.  There was no

14     such document.  So I was receiving my salary just like any other

15     active-service officer.  It was from that time on that I began to receive

16     my pension.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And this document that you received on the

18     17th of October, 1995, was retiring you as at what date?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the document that I received on

20     the 17th of October, 1995, it states that I was retiring as of the

21     31st or the 30th of December, 1994, 31st of December, 1994.  Thus, in

22     December 1994; yes, that is correct.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And to your recollection, from the

24     17th of October, 1995, did you receive any pension covering the period

25     31st of December, 1994, to the 17th of October, 1995?

Page 13051

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was receiving my salary, but

 2     then from that time on I received my pension.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may carry on, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is a small discrepancy in the

 5     translation.  This is an official translation, but you can see,

 6     Your Honours, at the top in the English translation in parenthesis after

 7     the letters "MUP" the translation service translated it as "Ministry of

 8     Defence," but I think it's indisputable that we're talking about the

 9     Ministry of the Interior of the RSK.  I would just like to note this for

10     the transcript.  I think this is not in dispute.  Where it says the MUP

11     of the RSK, that is the MUP of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.

12        Q.   General, other than your salary, what other rights did -- and

13     benefits did an active-service officer of the Yugoslav People's Army

14     enjoy?

15        A.   An officer was entitled to an allowance for working in a

16     situation when he was separated from his family.  Also, there was a

17     hardship allowance.  There were some special benefits for pilots and so

18     on.

19        Q.   What about health and pension insurance; did active-duty officers

20     of the JNA have that regulated through the JNA?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.

22        Q.   In relation to resolving housing problems, did an active-duty JNA

23     officer have the right to have his housing problem resolved?

24        A.   As for resolving the housing problems of the active-duty

25     personnel of the JNA, there was a bylaw based on the law of the army.  On

Page 13052

 1     the basis of several criteria, people exercised this right; their age,

 2     years of service, the number of years you spent without having an

 3     apartment of your own, number of family members, and so on.  On the basis

 4     of all of that, people were assigned a particular position on a list in

 5     terms of when they would get an apartment for their use.

 6        Q.   All of these rights that we referred to now, that you had as a

 7     JNA officer, after the JNA had left the territory of Croatia, did they

 8     cease for you personally?

 9        A.   When leaving -- when the JNA left the territory of Croatia and

10     the Krajina, we were told that we who had decided to stay on in the

11     Krajina had the right to housing, as it were, as it was put at the time,

12     as if we were still in the Army of Yugoslavia.  As a matter of fact, we

13     were asked to say in which garrison in the territory of the

14     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia we would like to have an apartment

15     allocated to us.  If you think it is necessary, I can describe my own

16     case which shows that things were not exactly that way.

17        Q.   Just tell us, did you act on the basis of that proposal and did

18     you resolve your personal housing issue?

19        A.   I did act in accordance with that proposal, but it was only in

20     January last year that I received an apartment, as the only general who

21     did not have an apartment.  I got the kind of apartment that I was

22     entitled to when I became a major some 28 or 29 years ago.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please admit this document

25     into evidence if we haven't done so already -- oh, but we have.

Page 13053

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  First of all, there's no document on the screen

 2     now.  You're talking about 00182D?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It has not been admitted just yet.  Okay.  You

 5     want it admitted?

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'd like to have it admitted.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May the document be

 8     given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

10     Exhibit D434.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I now have P1783 on our screen,

13     please.

14        Q.   Please have a look at this document, General, and could I hear

15     your comment then?  What is this about, and what do you have to do with

16     this document?

17        A.   This is a document from a poll that was carried out among the

18     officers of the Yugoslav People's Army at the time when the decision was

19     taken for the JNA to leave that area.  As you can see, towards the bottom

20     of the document you see what the possible wishes are: to be transferred

21     to the FRY, to be assigned to the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina, or to be assigned to the TO of the Republic of the

23     Serb Krajina.

24        Q.   So what was your decision?

25        A.   Well, it is written here, that I opted for being appointed in the

Page 13054

 1     TO of the Republic of the Serb Krajina, that is to say, to stay on where

 2     I had been working.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness, on page 61, line 10, he

 4     said the place where he was born.

 5        Q.   It says here, General, that you then stated that you had

 6     citizenship of the SFRY.  I'm going to ask you whether you ever received

 7     FRY citizenship?

 8        A.   As for citizenship of the FRY, as far as I can remember I got

 9     that in 1997, that is to say, more than two years after I came to the

10     FRY, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

11        Q.   What status did you have in the period from the autumn of 1995

12     when you arrived in the FRY up until the moment when you were given

13     citizenship?

14        A.   I had the status of refugee, like all the people who had come

15     from there.  I had a refugee ID.  I was an ordinary refugee with one

16     distinction, though.  I did not receive any aid from international

17     humanitarian organisations.  I had a pension, after all.  But my social

18     status was that of a refugee without citizenship.

19        Q.   General, what military ID did you have after you left the JNA in

20     the territory of the Republic of Croatia?

21        A.   After leaving the territory of the Republic of the Serb Krajina,

22     I had the ID of an officer of the JNA as I had had before the war.  I

23     never had the ID of an officer of the Army of Yugoslavia.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This document has already been

Page 13055

 1     admitted into evidence, and now I'd like us to move on.

 2        Q.   When you were appointed to the position that we saw a few moments

 3     ago and that you described in terms of the PJMs, what was your task?

 4     What were your duties?

 5        A.   I was commander of the 80th Brigade of the PJM in the area of

 6     Kordun.  When I spoke of the PJM, I referred to the line, a curtain, as

 7     it were, a line of observation actually vis-à-vis the Croatian forces

 8     that were on the other side without any UNPROFOR control.  But they did

 9     have combat deployment.

10        Q.   How many members did this brigade have?

11        A.   I cannot remember exactly anymore, but I think it was about

12     2.000 members.  As for the area, or rather, the length of that line that

13     it observed -- that these men observed and controlled - of course not all

14     of them at the same time on the line; some were on the line while others

15     were resting at that point in time - it was about 140 kilometres long.

16        Q.   General, what was the ethnic structure of the population that

17     lived in the territory of the zone that you covered?

18        A.   Mr. Lukic, are you asking me about the structure of the

19     population before the war started or at the time that we are discussing

20     right now?

21        Q.   The time that we are discussing right now.  That's what I'm

22     interested in.

23        A.   Most of the Croat population left that area, together with the

24     MUP and ZNG forces, when they were pushed out of the area.  I have to say

25     one thing, and it's easy to check that:  Namely, that the Croatian

Page 13056

 1     population in the territory of the municipality of Vrginmost, which

 2     unfortunately is no longer known by that name, I had some influence

 3     because I knew some people personally -- but anyway.  Part of the Croat

 4     population that was in the area that was controlled by the Serb

 5     Territorial Defence, it was Serb by its character and it was also

 6     controlled by the JNA, the armed forces of Yugoslavia, these people who,

 7     from the very beginning of the conflict, were on the territory that was

 8     our control stayed on until the end of the war.  And in August 1995 they

 9     met their own army there.  I'm going to give you the names of these

10     villages:  Lukinici, Viseci, Bjeljevine.

11        Q.   Thank you.  What was the attitude of the population living there?

12     What was their position in view of the fact that the JNA was leaving the

13     territory of the Republic of the Serb Krajina?

14        A.   At that point in time, it would have been better for you to be

15     anything but a member of the JNA among these people in that area.  As I

16     had already said in response to His Honour's question in the beginning,

17     as for the JNA and the Territorial Defence, they responded to their

18     call-up because they thought that the JNA would protect them by

19     protecting the constitutional order that existed until then.  Now this

20     was being considered as classical treason, something shameful.

21        Q.   How did you feel then as a former JNA officer?

22        A.   Well, it is certain that I did not feel good.  I said that to

23     some officers of the JNA as well.  Since I'm staying there, among -- as I

24     was staying there among these people, the best thing for them would be to

25     abolish my rank because that would only enhance my reputation among these

Page 13057

 1     people.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me just get clarity here.

 4             What was treasonable here?  You mentioned that it was considered

 5     classical treason after you have said:

 6             "As I had already said in response to His Honour's question in

 7     the beginning, as for the JNA and the Territorial Defence, they responded

 8     to their call-up because they thought that the JNA would protect them by

 9     protecting the constitutional order that existed until then."

10             And then you say that this was treason.

11             The expectation to protect the constitutional order was treason?

12     Tell us what was treason.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour.  It

14     seems to me that I wasn't being specific enough.

15             These people who reported to these units, they believed that they

16     were now being betrayed because their expectations were let down.  They

17     had expected the JNA to protect the constitutional order and thereby

18     protect their safety.  That is the essence of my answer.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the view of the people who were -- reported

20     to the PJMs?

21             THE WITNESS: [No verbal response]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   General, you mentioned a moment ago in respect to another

Page 13058

 1     question you mentioned corridor and breaking through the corridor.  Now

 2     I'm going to ask you what that was, what kind of action was this --

 3     actually, let me not put words into your mouth.  What do you mean when

 4     you say "corridor" and "breaking through the corridor"?

 5        A.   In the spring of 1992, after UNPROFOR came, the Croatian army

 6     started operating primarily in Bosnia.  I am not going to talk about

 7     Herzegovina because General Bobetko wrote about that at length for the

 8     sake of his military glory, but that's not the question.  It was the

 9     Bosnian part of Bosnia that was focused on from then on.  If you look at

10     the book about the 2nd Guards Brigade of the Croatian army, you have an

11     exact list of the places where members of that 2nd Guards Brigade lost

12     their lives in the territory of Bosanska Posavina.  The objective of

13     these operations, as stated by Zdravko Tomic who was then a minister in

14     their government, the book is called "Behind Closed Doors," the objective

15     was - to use his words - was to strangle the Krajina.  He says that he

16     thought, and that that was indeed the position of the Croatian

17     leadership, that in that way it would be the easiest to resolve the

18     problem of Knin and the rebel Serbs, as he had put it.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we put P469 on the screen once

20     again.

21        Q.   And could you please indicate to us what the corridor was and

22     what breaking through the corridor meant.  So could you please continue.

23        A.   I can say that for me as a soldier this map is quite small for me

24     to be able to point this out precisely.

25        Q.   Well, we're not asking you to do that.  This is not an exact

Page 13059

 1     professional debate.  It's only for the purposes of us being able to

 2     orient ourselves.

 3             Anyway, General, please continue.  Tell us what happened.

 4        A.   These units of the Croatian army, regular Croatian army,

 5     including units of the Croatian Defence Council from Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina and units under the control of Alija Izetbegovic, cut the

 7     road leading from the Serbian Krajina and the Bosnian part of the Krajina

 8     towards Serbia.  In this area, there were now existential problems

 9     beginning to crop up.  There was no electricity.  There was nothing to be

10     bought in the shops in terms of food.  If you had something growing in

11     the fields, that was it.  There were no medicines.  There was no fuel,

12     oil.  There was nothing that was essential for normal day-to-day life.  I

13     think that the sick were particularly in danger, especially the

14     chronically sick, as well as children.  And in this situation the

15     decision was made to resolve the question of survival by breaking through

16     the corridor towards Belgrade as the only available area or zone at the

17     time where all of these problems could be resolved.  There was no

18     alternative.

19        Q.   Did you take part in this operation of breaking through the

20     corridor, and who engaged you in this operation?

21        A.   I did take part in the breakthrough of the corridor as a

22     commander of a tactical group.  I was not sent to the corridor by anyone.

23     I went there as a volunteer.  I was appointed as commander of the

24     tactical group by Mr. Martic and General Talic after the first failed --

25     the first failed attempt to breakthrough the corridor.  That was when it

Page 13060

 1     was decided that I should head up this tactical group which was on that

 2     axis and to try to break through this corridor.

 3        Q.   Are you able to tell us what duties General Talic was performing

 4     at that time?

 5        A.   The actions were underway in the area of the 1st Krajina Corps,

 6     whose commander he was, and this was in his -- in the area of

 7     responsibility of his first subordinated group, that was the

 8     1st Operations Group Doboj.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the map a little

10     bit.

11        Q.   And, General, are you able to mark for us where these combat

12     operations were conducted?  Well, let's wait for us to zoom in on the map

13     a little bit.

14        A.   Yes, yes, this is it.  I can see sufficiently.

15        Q.   Can you please draw the line of where the corridor was that

16     linked the ...

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Yes, and you can put the number 1 on the right-hand side.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And the corridor linked up which territories?

21        A.   You can see that it linked up the territory of the Republic of

22     the Serbian Krajina, then this area here.  Let's say that we can mark

23     that with a 3.  And it also linked the territory of the Bosnian Krajina

24     from Banja Luka via Sanski Most, Drvar, Petrovac, Grahovo, this area

25     here.  So when I say 3, that would cover this whole area here and also

Page 13061

 1     this area here which is in the Bosnian Krajina.  This is on the Bosnian

 2     side of the border and the area of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina on

 3     our side, including Banja Luka here as well.

 4        Q.   What you indicated with the number 2 here, can we just note what

 5     that is for the transcript.

 6        A.   That is the Bosnian Krajina.  That is also called the Krajina,

 7     but it's an area that is on the Bosnian side of the border.

 8        Q.   And can you mark here with the letter B the place where this

 9     corridor was broken through by the Croatian army?

10        A.   This is a wider area.  I am looking for the towns of Brod and

11     Derventa from here, and now I'm trying to find Doboj.  It's more or less

12     like this.  For a map of this scale, this, I think, is all right.

13        Q.   Could you please mark that with the letter B.

14        A.   [Marks]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now first of all, Mr. Novakovic, when you were

16     asked to draw the corridor, you drew that line which you marked 1.

17     Should we then understand that that line actually extends up to 3 because

18     you want to join the Bosnian Krajina and you're also trying to join the

19     Croatian Krajina?  So that line should start from 1 and go up to 3; is

20     that how we should understand it?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as the need to

22     communicate, yes, you're right.  It should reach all the way to 3.  But I

23     actually marked only that part of the corridor which was not under our

24     control and where we had to fight to get through in order to create a

25     passage.  This area that was under Serbian control, I am taking it as an

Page 13062

 1     area where we were free to pass.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Well, we can finish with the map as long as we still have it in

 5     front of us.  So this operation, corridor, what did it achieve in terms

 6     of this area that you marked with the letter B?

 7        A.   As a soldier - and this is something that General Simic who was

 8     later Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska also

 9     talked about - it was a victory in a way.  If you look at books today by

10     Croatian generals who wrote about it, they said that they could not stop

11     their army from running away.  They kept escaping, if the Court will

12     permit me to say that.  Why, Your Honours?  This is what I would like to

13     tell you.  I'm not boasting or anything like that.  I would like to say

14     this because it was because of the morale of our fighters.  We did not

15     have anywhere to return to if we didn't create this corridor.  It wasn't

16     a question of whether we were going to pass or not; it was just a

17     question of when we were going to do it and how many of us would die in

18     the process.  I am very sorry when I hear today that I was in this way

19     creating a Greater Serbia.  This was actually a question of life and

20     death for a part of the people there.

21        Q.   Thank you, General.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document,

23     Your Honours, please.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

25     please be given an exhibit number.

Page 13063

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be

 2     assigned Exhibit D435.  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at another document

 4     on the screen, please.  This is a document marked P1782, so P1782.

 5        Q.   General, can you please tell us when the Serbian Army of the

 6     Krajina was formed; do you know?

 7        A.   We formed the Serbian Army of the Krajina in late October 1992.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to Mr. Harmon.  I would

 9     like to explain.  We marked this document as a 65 ter Defence document,

10     00181D, but then we saw that it was already an exhibit.  And this is why

11     I called it up in this way, in order to avoid duplication.

12        Q.   I apologise, General, for interrupting you.  What was the reason?

13        A.   Well, Mr. Lukic, you asked me and I answered.  If you want, we

14     can continue.

15        Q.   Yes, I've read the answer and I'm not going to ask you to repeat

16     it.  I want to ask you:  What was the reason for forming the Army of the

17     Serbian Krajina?

18        A.   From the time the UNPROFOR came, there were a number of

19     incursions which, speaking today, using the terminology used in the

20     world -- in today's world, I would describe that as a terrorist incursion

21     by armed Croatian groups and terrorist activities in the territory of a

22     zone under the protection of the United Nations which we called the

23     Republic of the Serbian Krajina.  For example, Nuskalik is a Serbian

24     village on the coast of the Adriatic Sea, a little bit more to the south

25     from Zadar.  There was an incursion and mostly the elderly population was

Page 13064

 1     killed, men and women.

 2             There was an incursion at the Miljevac plateau which is

 3     south-west of Knin and to the west of Drnis.  There were massacres,

 4     killings, and bodies thrown into the fields.

 5             There were incursions in Slavonia against people who were

 6     harvesting the corn.  Killings -- and as far as I know, the bodies were

 7     taken as far as Velebit, some 3- to 400 kilometres from there.

 8             This is one aspect of it.  On the other hand there were

 9     occurrences when the Croatian army, in negotiations with our Serbian

10     side, did not try to bring closer their political positions and to try to

11     find a solution in that way.  They were just bringing up suggestions in

12     order to achieve control over that territory.  They never mentioned the

13     question of the population in those territories.  All that they were

14     concerned about was control over the territory.  It was thus evident that

15     something had to be done.

16             In spite of the UNPROFOR being the way it was, it was necessary

17     to begin, to start with more serious preparations for defence, if

18     necessary, without actually going beyond the mandate set by the UNPROFOR.

19             From the time -- and you can see this decree here, this is in

20     late October, on the 21st of November we got an order to form the Army of

21     the Serbian Krajina.  I don't remember the date exactly.  We were

22     implementing organisational preparations, drafting papers, lists of how

23     these units should look.  But all of our weapons were still under lock

24     and key and under the control of UNPROFOR.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We can see from the document the decree on

Page 13065

 1     appointment to post, that you were appointed by the then-president of the

 2     Republic of the Serb Krajina Goran Hadzic, the document was signed by

 3     him.  Can you tell us, at the time, did you find out how come that the

 4     leadership of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina picked you?  Who had a

 5     share in coming to this decision?

 6        A.   At the time, in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina,

 7     unfortunately there was something which could be described as distrust,

 8     disagreement, and sometimes even conflicts among the TO staffs and the

 9     PJMs.  As far as I know there were even some physical settling of

10     accounts amongst groups or individuals.  This then also carried over or

11     spilled over into the leadership.

12             And the way the leadership of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina

13     was thinking about my authority as a military man and the reputation that

14     I had among the police and the TO and the army, the decision was reached

15     that I should be the one.  I didn't really consider that as an honour.  I

16     thought about it as a big job and a major obligation, and I didn't think

17     that they could surmount these disagreements, which were so dangerous, in

18     such a dangerous situation.  There were these sensitivities, these egos,

19     who was bigger than who.  And I believe that this was a luxury that we

20     could not afford, and I believed that I had some kind of authority among

21     all the sides, and I believed that we could then do something properly,

22     as I thought about it at the time.

23        Q.   General, at the time or later, did you hear of anyone from the

24     Army of Yugoslavia or from the leadership of the Federal Republic of

25     Yugoslavia was involved in the talks concerning your appointment to the

Page 13066

 1     position of commander of the SVK?

 2        A.   I'm not aware of any such thing.  Before I accepted this

 3     position, I talked to the then-Speaker of the Assembly of the Republic of

 4     the Serb Krajina, with the president of the Republic of the Serb Krajina,

 5     and with Mr. Martic, who at the time was a greater political authority.

 6     I wanted to talk to him too.  He had quite a dilemma, but it was probably

 7     his assessment that there wouldn't be a better solution, so they

 8     ultimately agreed to that as well.

 9        Q.   General, after being appointed to this position, did you see

10     Slobodan Milosevic?

11        A.   [No interpretation]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

13     answer.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters did not hear your answer,

15     Mr. Novakovic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Did you see Mr. Milosevic after you were no longer commander of

19     the SVK?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Since we are now going to adjourn, we will be discussing these

22     other things tomorrow.  But just tell us this:  When you saw

23     Mr. Milosevic -- actually, these encounters with President Milosevic,

24     what form did they take?

25        A.   In a group with several persons, in a group with a smaller number

Page 13067

 1     of persons, or in a tête-à-tête.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to suggest that we

 3     adjourn and then move on tomorrow with respect to this subject and

 4     others.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, we are not done with you, and we'll

 6     have to come back tomorrow.  But before we adjourn, I need to warn you

 7     that now that you have taken the witness-stand you may not discuss the

 8     case with anybody until you are excused from further testifying.  In

 9     particular, you may not discuss it with the Defence team.

10             The matter stands adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00 in the

11     morning - am I right? - yes, 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom II.

12             Court adjourned.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day

15                           of August, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.