Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13285

 1                           Wednesday, 1 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.  This

10     is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Could we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,

13     please.

14             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone

15     in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata, Carmela Javier for the

16     Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.

18             And for the Defence.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

20     morning to everyone in the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic is represented by

21     Novak Lukic, Tina Drolec, and any minute now Boris Zorko should enter the

22     courtroom.  He is copying the documents right now so that we can use them

23     in our work today -- well, here he is.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

25             Good morning to you, Mr. Novakovic.

Page 13286

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  To remind you again to tell

 3     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.  Thank you so

 4     much.

 5             Mr. Lukic.

 6                           WITNESS:  MILE NOVAKOVIC [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Novakovic, good morning.

10        A.   Good morning to you.

11        Q.   You heard the promise I gave to the Trial Chamber last night, so

12     I would like to ask for you to bear that in mind so that we can complete

13     it within the first session today.  I don't know whether e-court is

14     functioning now, but I would like to call P1048 if possible.  If not,

15     then we have hard copies here for everyone.  This document is dated --

16     or, rather, it comes from the Main Staff of the SVK dated 19th of August,

17     1994.  It is called:  "Operative Report on the Situation in Western

18     Bosnia."

19             And, General, what I wish to cover briefly is what we can see in

20     the lower part of this document.  It says that Fikret Abdic has

21     personally taken over the command, and then underneath would you please

22     read to yourself what is written there.  And just tell us briefly what it

23     is that this document is about, what was going on at the time.

24        A.   This is the last phase of the conflict in Western Bosnia between

25     the forces loyal to Fikret Abdic and the forces loyal to

Page 13287

 1     Alija Izetbegovic.  At this stage of the conflict, the forces loyal to

 2     Alija Izetbegovic are about to win, to defeat the forces loyal to

 3     Fikret Abdic.  And from this request of Fikret Abdic we can see that he

 4     is asking for more ammunition and that he is getting ready to leave the

 5     territory of this autonomous region of Western Bosnia that he had

 6     proclaimed and that his only option is to pull out the people via the

 7     territory of Serbian Krajina into Croatia and then further on to the

 8     west.  That was his intention.

 9        Q.   Is that what happened after this?

10        A.   It happened immediately within the next day or two.  I had

11     occasion to observe this.  The refugees came to the Serbian territory and

12     then moved on towards the border crossing in Turan, near Karlovci which

13     was a town under the Croatian control.  They were halted there by

14     Croatian authorities and Croatian armed formations, and they were not

15     allowed to pass further on into Croatia.

16        Q.   How many members of the units of Alija Izetbegovic were there as

17     well as civilian population, according to what you know?

18        A.   Are you referring to Alija Izetbegovic's army or --

19        Q.   No, no, no.  I made a mistake.  I apologise.  I had in mind the

20     units of Fikret Abdic and the civilians.  Can you give us an approximate

21     number of the people who crossed into the territory of Serbian Krajina?

22        A.   That was between 25.000 and 30.000 people.  That was the total

23     number, which was greater than the population that lived in Kordun at the

24     time.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that LiveNote is not working,

Page 13288

 1     but I will continue nevertheless following transcript on the screen.

 2        Q.   General, one of the positions that you held at the time was

 3     deputy commander for security and logistics, so let me ask you from that

 4     point of view, from the point of view of security, was this situation a

 5     security risk or a security threat at the time?

 6        A.   Potentially this could have been a problem, and this is why

 7     members of the people's defence of autonomous region of Western Bosnia

 8     who came to our territory were disarmed.  All weapons they had were

 9     confiscated from them, so that we could take care of them in an organised

10     manner.  Temporary refugee camps were set up in order to ensure that

11     these people were safe in the territory under our control.

12        Q.   Who was Serif Mustedanagic, General?

13        A.   Mr. Serif Mustedanagic was the commander of the army of

14     Fikret Abdic which was called People's Defence of the Autonomous Region

15     of Western Bosnia.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at P1141.

17        Q.   This is an enactment of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and then

18     underneath we see Pauk command.  The date is November 1994.  And then

19     underneath we see your signature and your name.  General, let me ask you

20     first, what was it, Pauk command, or Spider command?

21        A.   Pauk command consisted of two parts.  One part comprised the

22     Supreme Command of People's Defence of the Autonomous Province of Western

23     Bosnia.  The other part comprised a group of officers of the Serbian Army

24     of Krajina, SVK, headed by me pursuant to an order from Mr. Martic.  Our

25     responsibility was to assist in planning of combat operations and in

Page 13289

 1     control or direction of combat operations.  Before carrying out combat

 2     operations and following their completion, our Serbian part which

 3     consisted of four to five officers had no further responsibilities nor

 4     were they authorised to command anybody.

 5        Q.   Now tell me, please, about the content of this document.  Do you

 6     remember this?  Do you remember submitting such a request?  And what was

 7     the reason for it?

 8        A.   This document hails from the period when the temporary operations

 9     group Pauk was established and based on what Mr. Fikret Abdic agreed on

10     in Belgrade, and he told me that he had agreed with Mr. Milosevic and

11     with Mr. Karadzic based on which some financial assistance had been

12     promised to him.  This financial assistance was provided by the SVK and

13     it consisted mostly of equipment and ammunition.  And what the SVK didn't

14     have itself, as you can see from this request, I tried to obtain from the

15     General Staff of the VJ.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I'm done with this document.

17             How long was this Pauk command in operation?

18        A.   Pauk command existed until the 5th of August, 1995, that's how

19     long it was in operation.

20        Q.   And this is the time when the Operation Storm, Croatian Operation

21     Storm, began?  I apologise --

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   I apologise for formulating my question in this manner.

24             Did -- we saw the document, and after August of 1994 were the

25     forces of Fikret Abdic active at all?  Did they try to regain their

Page 13290

 1     territory; and if so, did they have any success in that?

 2        A.   In late 1994 after a grave humanitarian situation which existed,

 3     these forces attempted to regain their territory by force.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. -- Mr. Novakovic told us that Pauk

 5     command existed until the 5th of August, 1995.  And then you asked after

 6     August 1994.  Was it August 1994 you meant or did you mean August 1995?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I meant 1994 because we were dealing

 8     with the document which provided information that the forces of

 9     Alija Izetbegovic would push them out of that territory.  So from that

10     time on for the following year, that's the period I had in mind.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I have finished with this topic, and the next issue that I'm

14     interested in is something that we have touched upon yesterday.  So the

15     next document that I would like us to look at is from the Defence 65 ter

16     list 00748D, which is a decision on uniting RSK and Republika Srpska

17     dated the 20th of May --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the year.

19     Yesterday --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters didn't hear the year.  They heard

21     up to the 20th of May.  I don't know what year.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 20th of May, 1995.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   General, yesterday at the end of your evidence we touched upon

Page 13291

 1     the relationship that existed between Martic and Karadzic, and during

 2     your proofing I showed you this document.  So I'm asking you now, do you

 3     know something about this decision, do you know what was the political

 4     background to this decision, and what was Milosevic's reaction to this

 5     decision at the time?

 6        A.   Mr. Lukic, this was the third instance since 1992 that such a

 7     decision was being passed on uniting Republika Srpska and RSK.  This

 8     decision was adopted based on very similar political views of Mr. Martic

 9     and Mr. Karadzic, and Mr. Milosevic believed this to be a provocation

10     addressed to the international community because they -- there had

11     already existed two internationally recognised states:  Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina and Croatia.  And in their territories they tried to create

13     something that was unacceptable for the international community, a

14     state -- a new state.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now admit this into

17     evidence, Your Honours, this document.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

19     please be given an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D443.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   General, you mentioned something yesterday and I would like to

24     develop it further; namely, your participation in negotiations in Geneva.

25     Would you please tell us what negotiations those were and who

Page 13292

 1     participated in them.

 2        A.   These negotiations were planned and were held on the 3rd of

 3     August, 1995.  Mr. Stoltenberg headed the negotiations.  On the Croatian

 4     side there were Mr. Pasalic and Madam Skare Ozbolt, General Stipetic,

 5     Admiral Domazet, and on our side I was the one who headed the delegation

 6     comprising another three persons Mr. Macura, Mr. Prijic, and

 7     Mr. Vojnovic.  On the Croatian side those were fake negotiations and we

 8     knew that ahead of time.  Their intention was to present their requests

 9     which we in turn would reject, and then they would have a basis for

10     international recognition and acceptance of the aggression.  We knew that

11     this was their position before we went to Geneva, and I'm saying this for

12     the first time here, that this is something that Mr. Stoltenberg very

13     honestly admitted to me in Geneva during negotiations.

14             After --

15        Q.   Let us go step by step.  What did Mr. Stoltenberg tell you and

16     what situation during those negotiations?

17        A.   Initially negotiations were conducted in such a manner where

18     international intermediaries would hold several talks with both

19     delegations, that of the Republic of Croatia, those -- that of the

20     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  I was informed by Mr. Stoltenberg, as the

21     chief of the delegation, that the Croats were insisting on holding a

22     joint plenary session.  Mr. Stoltenberg said to me then that

23     they - meaning the international mediators - will draft a proposed

24     agreement that would be supposed to be accepted as a result of those

25     negotiations.  He thought it would be the most useful thing for our side,

Page 13293

 1     for their paper or their draft created by international intermediaries

 2     for us to accept it in its entirety, including the acceptance of the

 3     then-still-contentious plan labelled Z-4.

 4             After consultations with my delegation members, I decided to go

 5     along with that proposal.  At the plenary session which ensued, if you

 6     wish me to explain this, the Croatian side came up with a torrent of

 7     abuse and they sought that we raise our hands, sign unconditional

 8     capitulation, they wanted all of us in the RSK to be tried as war

 9     criminals, et cetera.  I was the only one who spoke on behalf of my

10     delegation, and I said that I don't want to use such vocabulary and such

11     term of voice.  I stated that the Serbian delegation was supporting in

12     its entirety the international mediators' proposal of the agreement, and

13     I repeated that after the negotiations in front of 70, 80 international

14     journalists.

15        Q.   What was the reaction when you said that you accepted the

16     proposal coming from the international community?

17        A.   The Croatian side up-to-date has ignored this fact, and they

18     don't even want to mention it.  Their interpretation was and has been

19     that they reject -- that we rejected their proposal, but the fact is that

20     the Serbian side never even expressed their opinion of their proposal;

21     rather, the Serbian side accepted the proposal coming from the

22     international community, international mediators, in its entirety which

23     includes the Z-4 Plan.  And in the paper that was put forward by

24     international mediators, that contained the dates and issues for the next

25     subsequent meeting and negotiations, and the date was - if I remember

Page 13294

 1     correctly - the 10th of August, 1995.

 2        Q.   On page 9, line 15, I asked what was the reaction of the Croatian

 3     side, and you see the answer goes in that direction.

 4             What was the reaction of Mr. Stoltenberg and the international

 5     mediators when you accepted their proposal?

 6        A.   The international observers, Mr. Stoltenberg,

 7     Ambassador Volebaek, Ambassador Arhens, General de Lapresle, greeted and

 8     hailed my decision, but probably because of knowing what was to come and

 9     after what the Croats said.  After the end of those negotiations, in my

10     opinion they were very worried and this is the atmosphere that we parted

11     ways in.

12        Q.   Could you please repeat the names.  They are not well --

13        A.   Mr. Stoltenberg, Ambassador Geert Arhens, Ambassador Volebaek,

14     General de Lapresle, Belgian Brigade General Peters, maybe Petars, but

15     maybe Peters.

16        Q.   Thank you very much.  That would be enough.  In deciding to

17     accept the international mediators' proposal, did you consult anybody

18     else except those in your delegation before you took the decision?

19        A.   I consulted only with my delegation.

20        Q.   What happened the next day?

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next day general Croatian

23     offensive ensued against the UN protected area, and as we saw it an

24     aggression against the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Our delegation was

25     not allowed to return the same day.  We were allowed only around midday

Page 13295

 1     on the 4th of August and the attack started in the morning hours of the

 2     4th of August.  So our delegation only in the afternoon on the 4th of

 3     August landed at Belgrade airport in a UN aircraft.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   General, in a couple of words, tell us - although I know that you

 6     can speak volumes about that - what did you do after that and what were

 7     you active in in the subsequent period?

 8        A.   I departed towards Krajina from Belgrade immediately.  It took me

 9     all night because the roads were congested.  I could see that there were

10     many refugees on the roads and what was the strangest in my opinion was

11     that I saw that the Serbian settlements that I passed along the way were

12     under intense artillery and missile fire of the Croatian forces.  Also, I

13     found a dispatch from Knin, which was one of the last ones, that I was

14     appointed deputy commander for Kordun and Banija.  Probably it was

15     expected that the communication between Knin and the northern parts would

16     be severed, which eventually did happen.

17        Q.   Could you please tell us who appointed you to that post?

18        A.   General Mrksic, the then-commander of the SVK.  That was his

19     dispatch that reached me.

20        Q.   Did you take part in the defence of the Republic of Serbian

21     Krajina and for how long?

22        A.   Communication with Banija was severed on that day as well, and

23     from then on we were cut off.  Croatian forces connected on the flanks of

24     the Kordun corridor with Alija Izetbegovic's forces in Lika and drew

25     closer to Alija Izetbegovic's forces in Western Bosnia through Banija.  I

Page 13296

 1     had to organise the defence at Kordun; we were successful in that.  Until

 2     the 6th of August, Sunday evening, we did not budge to the Croatian

 3     forces.  Chaos ensued.  Only when refugees from Lika entered our area and

 4     thus blocked and congested all communications and roads.  After that on

 5     the 6th in the evening, together with the commander of the corps, Chief

 6     of Staff of the corps, minister of the interior of the RSK who was there,

 7     and people from police at their initiative I took a decision to try to

 8     break through towards Dvor Na Uni and that -- a part of our forces

 9     effected that breakthrough, despite the fact that the Croatian forces had

10     cut off the road at Glina.  The fight followed until the 10th, and I

11     fought there as a common soldier with a rifle in my hand.

12             On that Sunday I contacted General Janvier, commander of the

13     UNPROFOR on several occasions, and this is the first time that I

14     disclosed this.  As opposed to Generals Cot and General de Lapresle,

15     General Janvier seemed completely confused and lost out at sea.  When I

16     demanded that he protect the columns of refugees on the road and to

17     threaten the Croatian forces with NATO aviation and air-strikes if they

18     were to shoot at the refugees, General Janvier kept saying, "General,

19     please, General, please, make sure that my soldiers are safe."

20             I told General Janvier, "Mr. General, your soldiers would be the

21     safest if they were left at home.  Why did you bring them here?  Why

22     would their safety be the most important thing?  Why don't you protect

23     the people in that area," but to no avail.

24        Q.   Thank you.  How long did combat operations last or your

25     activities in that area?

Page 13297

 1        A.   Combat activities on the road between the town of Glina and the

 2     river of Una, Dvor Na Uni, and Novi Grad and the bridge over the Una

 3     towards the territory -- Serb-controlled territory of the Republika

 4     Srpska, with the goal of defending the people on the road because we had

 5     nothing else to defend, they lasted until the 10th of August.

 6        Q.   General, what happened with the RSK after the 10th of August,

 7     1995?

 8        A.   The briefest possible answer:  Nothing.

 9        Q.   Did it continue to persist as a political reality?  I'd like you

10     to be more precise.

11        A.   No.  Not even what has been written in Croatia's constitutional

12     law about two autonomous districts in the territory of Croatia has not

13     been abided by in those areas where Serbs were a majority.  This has not

14     been implemented up-to-date.  Those areas are empty, destroyed,

15     including - if I may make a personal note - the house and farm of my

16     parents who suffered the same fate back in 1941 and then in 1995, where

17     everything was destroyed.

18        Q.   What happened to the SVK after the 10th of August, 1995?

19        A.   I don't know who, where, or when decided or made arrangements for

20     members of the SVK immediately upon entering the territory of the RS to

21     be disarmed.  I saw that and it felt ugly, as if they were entering enemy

22     or alien territory.  I don't know why such decision was taken.

23        Q.   Did the SVK continue to exist, the Main Staff, corps, did they

24     exist after August 1995?

25        A.   Only the 11th Corps continued existing -- in existence in the

Page 13298

 1     eastern-most part of the RSK.

 2        Q.   Let me revisit another topic before the final part that I could

 3     not --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does the 11th Corps still exist to date or when

 5     did it come to its end?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in -- during 1995

 7     negotiations started on peaceful reintegration of that territory into the

 8     territory of the newly established Croatian state.  That process was

 9     completed in a way that those areas were integrated or reintegrated into

10     the territory of the newly established Croatian state, which meant the

11     end of the 11th Corps.  What happened to their weapons, I don't know.  I

12     wasn't in the loop.  I simply have no way of knowing.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When did the life of the 11th Corps come to an

14     end?  Are you able to give a date, a month, a year?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the corps still

16     existed in 1995.  I know that with some degree of reliability, but in

17     1996 it no longer existed.  I cannot remember precisely the elements of

18     those -- this agreement.  There were stages, and if I were to try to be

19     specific I would be speculating.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Let us go back to a document.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we adduce it under

25     different numbers.  This is the Law on the SVK which has been adduced

Page 13299

 1     only in parts as opposed to the Law on the VJ and the VRS; although, I

 2     tried to have it admitted in its entirety.  That would be D170.  Let us

 3     take a look at an article which is part of that exhibit, and then another

 4     article which has not been tendered, which has not been given an exhibit

 5     number but is important from our purposes and I believe it should be

 6     commented upon by the witness.  We have provided a draft translation of

 7     it.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have made a speech here which I don't

 9     understand, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The Law on the Serbian Army of

11     Krajina is a voluminous document, just like the other two laws; it has

12     over 300 articles.  The Law on the Army of Yugoslavia and the Law on the

13     Army of Republika Srpska were tendered into evidence in their entirety;

14     whereas, the Law on the Serbian Army of Krajina was unfortunately

15     tendered into evidence only in a limited manner, only some articles were

16     admitted.  And now I will comment with the witness on some articles which

17     are already in evidence as part of D170, and then I want to look at some

18     other articles which have not yet been admitted and I will -- it is quite

19     unfortunate in my view that they have not been admitted, and I will ask

20     that they be admitted eventually and joined with D170.

21        Q.   General, you are quite familiar with this document --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you saying this law is D170?  This document is

23     D170 that we've just got?

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this is D170, except for the

Page 13300

 1     additional articles that I will mention.

 2        Q.   General, we see that this law was adopted on the 22nd of April,

 3     1993.  At that time you had already been commander of the SVK.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at Article 320,

 5     which are transitional provisions and final provisions at the very end.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm advised that in e-court this document appears

 7     as D85, not 170.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, D85 is just this one article and

 9     D170 are other articles.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Article 320 is D85?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Correct.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But ...

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you see that, General, do you have Article 320 before you?

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go on with the General, I'm also

17     trying to find out where you find it in this document that you have given

18     us that it was adopted on the 22nd of April, 1993, because that's what

19     you proposed to the witness.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, please.  I can see the

21     B/C/S version very clearly, but I don't know whether the same is true for

22     you.  Because the B/C/S version has the date in the heading.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters kindly ask that the ELMO --

24     that -- be focused a bit more because we can't read the text on the ELMO.

25     Could that be corrected, please.

Page 13301

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We have a problem with the system here.  I'm not

 2     quite sure whether the ELMO can work, Madam Interpreter.  Okay.  Yeah.

 3     It's faded, I can't see either, and unfortunately you don't have the hard

 4     copy.

 5             I can guarantee you, Mr. Lukic, that on the English copy that I

 6     have there is no date.  The question is:  Are we looking at the same

 7     document in the English and B/C/S?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please look at the

 9     heading of the document.  I'm trying to cover it as quickly as possible.

10     It says Law on the Army of the Serbian Army of Krajina, Official Gazette

11     of the Republic of Serbian Krajina 2/1993.  Do you see that?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see that, but there's no date, there's no 22nd

13     of April, 1993.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, please.  Now, if we

15     were to put the B/C/S version on the ELMO, would that be of assistance to

16     you?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, it would not be of assistance to me because

18     I'm not sure whether we are looking at the same document.  If your B/C/S

19     document has a date, my English document must have a date.  We must look

20     at the same thing.  The question is:  Has -- are we looking at the same

21     document?

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What was translated into English were

23     just excerpts from the document, not the document in it entirety, because

24     the CLSS has refused to translate the entire document and only certain

25     articles were translated.  And this is how we proceeded with

Page 13302

 1     Witness Starcevic.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You see, what is on the ELMO right now I do have,

 3     but there is no date there.  You see, my problem --

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- my problem is that when you make introductory

 6     remarks before you put your question, you put statements which we are not

 7     able to verify from the document.  You've suggested to the witness that

 8     this document is dated the 22nd of April, 1993.  We don't see that date

 9     on this document.  Now, shall we accept that as correct or not?  Now,

10     rather just don't prefix your questions.  Show the witness the document

11     and start asking your questions.  That avoids, one, leading; two, giving

12     information that is unverifiable, like you've just done.

13             Okay.  Put your questions.  Now we accept that you are talking

14     about the Law on the Serbian Army of Krajina, Official Gazette of the

15     Republic of Serbian Krajina number 2 of 1993.  You may proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   General, I apologise.  I apologise to the Chamber.  This was

18     something that was evident for me in the B/C/S version, and I had no idea

19     that it was missing in the English version.

20             General, can you see based on the document in front of you when

21     this law was adopted?

22        A.   On each page of this document in the Serbian it says:

23             "Thursday, 22nd April, 1993," which is - as far as I can

24     remember -- I know it was April.  I can't claim that it was on the 22nd

25     precisely that this law was adopted.

Page 13303

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm going to have to mark this for identification

 2     until we have the correct translation.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's what I was going to suggest.

 4        Q.   Article 320, General, says:

 5             "On the date of entry into force of this law, active officers and

 6     active junior officers of the Army of Yugoslavia who, in addition to the

 7     citizenship of the RSK, are also citizens of another Serbian state and

 8     have been appointed to duty in the Serbian Army of Krajina (hereinafter

 9     SVK) are hereby transferred into professional officers and professional

10     non-commissioned officers of the SVK in the rank they held on the day

11     this law entered into force."

12             General, when did you become a member of the Serbian Army of

13     Krajina, the SVK?

14        A.   De facto, I became a member of that army the day SVK was

15     established.  At that time we still did not have the Law on the Army and

16     the Law on Defence.

17        Q.   Let's now look at Article 324.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is a draft translation,

19     Your Honours.

20        Q.    "Professional active officers, junior officers, and military

21     clerks of the Army of Yugoslavia, as well as civilians in -- serving in

22     the Army of Yugoslavia who do not accept to be transferred into SVK as

23     professional officers, professional non-commissioned officers, or

24     civilians serving in the SVK, shall have their service terminated within

25     30 days from the day this law enters into force."

Page 13304

 1             I'm just interested in this particular paragraph of this article.

 2     Did you have any situations where you had somebody there who considered

 3     themselves a member of the VJ and were serving in the SVK and could you

 4     command such people?

 5        A.   This pertains exclusively to dealing with those who left the SVK

 6     and were no longer in the SVK, and logically they could not be considered

 7     members of the SVK any longer.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to avoid any potential

 9     problems, I will ask for official translation of both of these articles,

10     of both of these pages, and then I would ask that that official

11     translation replace the draft translation and that these two articles be

12     added to the existing exhibit.  I think that this is technically the most

13     viable solution.  For the time being we can keep the existing exhibit

14     number and indication of MFI.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll add it to D85, and we'll make a note that

17     this part is marked for identification.

18             Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   General, on the first day of your evidence when we discussed your

21     career and we saw how you were retired and what entry was made concerning

22     your retirement, you gave answers to His Honour Moloto about the factual

23     and formal date of your retirement, so I will now deal with that.  In

24     that document that we saw, which is your personnel file, OTP exhibit, it

25     says that you were retired on the 30th of December, 1994, by way of the

Page 13305

 1     decree of -- presidential decree.  And you told us that factually you

 2     retired only the 17th of October, 1995, if I'm not mistaken.

 3        A.   Yes, it was then that I was informed that I had been retired.

 4     Both dates that you said are correct, and also please look at the date

 5     when I was appointed chief of the infantry administration.  They

 6     antedated my retirement date subsequently.

 7        Q.   I think it was on the 14th of December?

 8        A.   Yes, it was in December.

 9        Q.   Let me ask you this now:  Who told you this, who talked to you,

10     and what did they talk to you about concerning your retirement?

11        A.   General Perisic.

12        Q.   Were you alone there or was there somebody else present?

13        A.   General Mrksic, the then-commander of SVK and the last commander

14     of SVK; General Bjelanovic, who was assistant for logistics; and myself.

15     The three of us were together with General Perisic.

16        Q.   What did General Perisic tell you at the time, whose decision was

17     it and what kind of a decision it was?

18        A.   General Perisic said that that was the decision of the Supreme

19     Defence Council.

20        Q.   And when it comes to the date of your retirement, what did he

21     tell you about that?

22        A.   That the date of retirement had to be what it was because in late

23     1994 Article 107 of the Law on the Army became invalid [as interpreted],

24     and that article enabled servicemen to retire based on their years of

25     service and their age.

Page 13306

 1        Q.   Tell us, how did you accept this decision?

 2        A.   I took it well in the sense that I wanted all of this to be done

 3     and over with because I no longer had any intention of serving in

 4     anyone's army.

 5        Q.   Why did you no longer want to serve in anyone's army?

 6        A.   No, after everything that had happened and the way it had

 7     happened, I no longer wanted it.

 8        Q.   Do you remember whether you signed any documents on the basis of

 9     that decision, and were you aware then that the official date of your

10     retirement would be the 30th of December, 1994?

11        A.   Yes.  They told me then that the Supreme Defence Council, guided

12     by such a possibility provided by the legislation, made that decision and

13     that that decision pertained to me.

14        Q.   General, were you aware at the time, did you know that there was

15     some sort of a negative attitude to you as officers of the SVK and the

16     fall of the SVK among the general public and among the leadership and

17     among the authorities?

18        A.   Yes, it was well-known, and the case of us three generals -- the

19     three of us knew that.  We knew that in the top echelons of the state at

20     the time existed a negative attitude towards us and that General Perisic

21     shared that view as well.

22        Q.   Did you know why, why did the political leadership and military

23     leadership have this negative attitude towards you?

24        A.   The public in -- were revolted over what had happened and how it

25     happened in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.  It was our

Page 13307

 1     understanding that the state and the military leadership at the time was

 2     the best option for the FRY at the time, and in that option the officers

 3     and then the other leadership in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina

 4     could be blamed for everything.  General Perisic even mentioned something

 5     like that in his conversation with us three generals.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I make an intervention here.

 7             Madam Interpreter, I thought you moved away from the mike and you

 8     didn't tell us where this public revolted.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The public in Serbia, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             I do not understand your answer, Mr. Novakovic.  You say:

12             "It was our understanding that the state and the military

13     leadership at the time was the best option ..."

14             How can -- what do you mean the state is the best option and the

15     leadership -- "... was the best option for the FRY at the time, and in

16     that option the officers and then the other leadership in the Republic of

17     Serbian Krajina could be blamed for everything."

18             I really don't understand what that sentence is saying, unless

19     you have been misinterpreted.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I said was that

21     for the state and military leadership at the time of the Federal Republic

22     of Yugoslavia, in order to preserve their position of power, the best

23     option in terms of the revolt of the population was the -- was to blame

24     us from the Republic of -- from the Serbian Republic of the Krajina for

25     everything that happened.

Page 13308

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That makes better sense.  Thank you so much.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And what was the position of the political and the military

 4     leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in terms of the security

 5     of the FRY and in terms of what happened with the exodus of the Serbs

 6     from the Krajina, particularly the Serbian -- the Army of the Serbian

 7     Krajina?

 8        A.   Mr. Lukic, are you asking me when you're talking about security

 9     are you talking about internal security situation or some kind of

10     external danger?

11        Q.   To be more precise, I'm talking about internal security situation

12     and the political situation.

13        A.   According to what I know - and this has not been disproved by

14     anything to date - there was a concern that, first of all, dissatisfied

15     Serbs from the Krajina who were refugees at the time could, in an

16     uncontrolled outburst of dissatisfaction, turn to some kind of expression

17     that would no longer be possible to control.  To tell you the truth, I

18     believe that perhaps I myself contributed to that to a degree when I saw

19     before going to Geneva a kind of nonchalant attitude.  I did state a

20     sentence in Belgrade in the sense of, "You just keep on playing if here

21     in the Nemanja and Kneza Milosa Street where these main institutions of

22     the state are located find themselves surrounded by 300 [as interpreted]

23     people from the Krajina, the space will be quite small and tight for

24     everybody, and then later when the column of refugees started no one

25     could enter Belgrade."  But General Mrksic or I were not able to cross

Page 13309

 1     the Drina itself to enter either.

 2        Q.   You said 300.000, this is page 24, line 23.

 3        A.   Yes, I did, I said 300.000.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And does that quote end at the end of the

 5     sentence, "... but General Mrksic and I were not able to cross the Drina

 6     itself to enter either."  Is that where your quotation ends?  I thought

 7     you were quoting something.  The stenographer start here:

 8             "I did state a sentence in Belgrade in the sense of, "You just

 9     keep on playing if here in the Nemanja and Kneza Milosa Street where the

10     main institutions of the state are located to find themselves surrounded

11     by 300.000 people from the Krajina, the space will be quite small and

12     tight for everybody, and then later when the column of refugees started

13     no one could enter Belgrade."

14             Is that what you say you said in Belgrade and is that where you

15     end?  Thank you, sir.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The quotation ends with that, and I

17     also said later that refugees could not enter Belgrade later and that

18     General Mrksic and I were also stopped from entering Serbia over the

19     Drina River, which is the official boundary entering into Serbia.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   And where were you in the meantime, after the 10th of August

22     until this conversation with General Perisic?

23        A.   From the 10th of August until the 23rd of September, I was in

24     Republika Srpska, in Prijedor and Banja Luka.  And then I crossed into

25     Serbia incognito.  From that time until the 17th of October I was in

Page 13310

 1     Serbia.

 2        Q.   General, I'm only going to have a couple more questions and I'm

 3     sure I will make you happy when I tell you that I have almost finished

 4     with my examination.  I'm sure everybody in the courtroom will also be

 5     relieved.  General, we spoke about the meetings that you had with

 6     General Perisic, with Milosevic, and we also saw that General Mladic was

 7     present sometimes.  Judge Moloto asked you yesterday, I think, about the

 8     levels of the top professional officer of an army.  At one point in time

 9     you were the commander of the Serbian Army of the Krajina; General Mladic

10     was the commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska; and

11     General Perisic was the Chief of the General Staff of the Army of

12     Yugoslavia.

13             What I would like to know particularly is this:  At that level,

14     based on what you know about the events, General Mladic -- was

15     General Perisic an authority to him?  Did he have any kind of a

16     subordinated relationship to him and did that perhaps also apply to you?

17        A.   Formally, no, of course not.  General Perisic, first of all let's

18     clarify that, did not have any kind of formally superior position in

19     relation to General Mladic.  Informally, the case was even less so; it

20     wasn't the case at all.  Because General Mladic is a man who believes in

21     his knowledge and in his ability.  At the time he was in touch with

22     foreign ministers, foreign generals, from Greece, Russia, UNPROFOR

23     generals, in contact with ambassadors.  The questions that needed to be

24     resolved in Yugoslavia he would resolve with Mr. Milosevic.  So generally

25     at that point in time as far as he was concerned, General Perisic was an

Page 13311

 1     audience that at some points was supposed to provide him with resources.

 2             As far as I'm concerned, just like Mr. Mladic, I was at this

 3     function before General Perisic took on the duty of the Chief of Staff of

 4     the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.  So my fate did not depend

 5     on General Perisic.  Very quickly I realised that as far as I was

 6     concerned General Perisic was not an important address in Belgrade for

 7     me.  Everything that had to be done was really not referred to

 8     General Perisic.  If I were to exaggerate I could say that he wasn't to

 9     be asked about anything.  Perhaps that wasn't quite true, but basically

10     none of the decisions were under his authority or jurisdiction.  I found

11     this out in the following way.  The supreme political and military

12     authority was in the hands of Mr. Milosevic.  If the army was supposed to

13     resolve something then he would call his man from his political party,

14     Mr. Lilic, who could possibly have a say in this.  He could possibly tell

15     General Perisic something in the sense that some decision would need to

16     be implemented.

17             To tell you the truth, throughout the whole time that I was the

18     commander of the Serbian Army of the Krajina, it was my sense that

19     politicians have some kind of base or foundation in Belgrade.  Policemen

20     had some kind of base in Belgrade, but my company, the one that I should

21     be relying on in Belgrade, it was the least important one.  I realised I

22     had no base to lean on in Serbia.

23        Q.   When you say "my firm, my company," you're thinking of the Army

24     of the Serbian Krajina; is that correct?

25             MR. HARMON:  That's leading, Your Honour.  I object to that.

Page 13312

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And when you're saying "police,"

 2     you're also saying police of the RSK.

 3             MR. HARMON:  I object, Your Honour.  That's leading.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that it was not translated

 5     correctly into the English, Your Honours, please.

 6        Q.   Who were you thinking of when you said "our politicians" and "our

 7     policemen"?

 8        A.   Speaking about the situation during the time that I was the

 9     commander of the Serbian Army of the Krajina, it is clear that I

10     meant - and I confirm that now - the politicians and the policemen from

11     the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, for whom I said that they were

12     looking for some kind of backing in Belgrade, when the General Staff was

13     a body that provided the least backing as far as we were concerned.

14        Q.   General, I have finished my examination-in-chief, and I thank you

15     for your answers.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to make everything quite clear, when you say

17     "the General Staff was a body that provided the least backing as far as

18     we were concerned," what General Staff are you referring to?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant the General Staff of the

20     Army of Yugoslavia, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

22             We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.  Court

23     adjourned.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

Page 13313

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 2             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Counsel.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon:

 4        Q.   Good morning, General Novakovic.

 5        A.   Good morning to you too, Mr. Harmon.

 6             MR. HARMON:  If I could have P177 on the monitor.  I'm referring

 7     to English e-court translation 06117595, page 4 in the English and the

 8     B/C/S page 6.

 9        Q.   What we'll be looking at in just a moment, General Novakovic, is

10     your personnel file.  It's P1777.

11             MR. HARMON:  I need the next -- that is not the page I'm looking

12     for in English.  Let me -- it should be page 4 in the English.  All

13     right.  That's the correct page.  Thank you.

14        Q.   What I'm interested in examining with you just briefly, and very

15     briefly, General Novakovic, is your career trajectory as reflected in

16     your official personnel file.  And I'd like to focus your attention on --

17     the first entry I'd call your attention to is the entry that -- wherein

18     you are assigned as command of the 5th VO Zagreb garrison as the

19     assistant chief of training.  Do you see that entry?  It is the third one

20     from -- should be the third one from the bottom in the English on the

21     right-hand side?  Do you see that entry, sir?

22        A.   Mr. Harmon, is that the entry where it says:  Assistant chief

23     training department of organ for operational and training activities,

24     command of the 5th Military District Zagreb garrison?

25        Q.   Yes, that's correct.  And that was -- you were assigned, were

Page 13314

 1     you, to Zagreb, in Croatia, pursuant to an order of the SSNO; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   This is an order of the SSNO because it went for an appointment

 4     to a post of a colonel as per establishment.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Then following that you were temporarily assigned to work

 6     in the 5th Military District, 1st Operations Group, and that was pursuant

 7     to -- it says NPU of the SSNO.  Can you tell us what the acronym NPU

 8     stands for?

 9        A.   Mr. Harmon, that would be the last row or the last column.  This

10     is the Chief of Personnel Administration of the Federal Secretariat for

11     People's Defence.

12        Q.   Now, where were you stationed when you were assigned to the 5th

13     Military District, 1st Operations Group, was that still in Zagreb or was

14     that elsewhere?

15        A.   Mr. Harmon, I was not in Zagreb.  I was seconded to the war

16     college, College for People's Defence, in Belgrade pursuant to a special

17     order on -- to that effect which was not entered here.  And in the centre

18     of high military schools, I was told about this order of the Chief of the

19     Personnel Administration of the Federal Secretariat for People's Defence

20     where I'm deployed in the command of the operations group 1 which was

21     then being established in Belgrade.

22        Q.   Okay.  And your next entry reflects that you were assigned to the

23     1st Operations Group, the 4th Partisan Brigade in Vrginmost.  And who

24     ordered you to that assignment?

25        A.   I'm a bit confused by this entry, Mr. Harmon, because at that

Page 13315

 1     time I was not a brigade commander.  The brigade commander, as I've

 2     already stated here, Lieutenant-Colonel Mladenovic who previously had

 3     been in the Karlovac garrison which was the domicile garrison of the

 4     aforementioned 4th Partisan Brigade.

 5        Q.   Sir, what I'm interested in is the last entry on the page that

 6     reflects an assignment to the 1st Operations Group, 4th Partisan Brigade

 7     in Vrginmost.  Did you receive such an assignment?

 8        A.   I was assigned to that post on the 18th of May, 1992, when the

 9     Yugoslav People's Army - and then Lieutenant-Colonel Mladenovic who

10     hailed from Serbia - withdrew to Serbia.

11        Q.   So this entry in your personnel file that reflects the assignment

12     date being -- the order date being the 28th of October, 1991, is that

13     correct or incorrect?

14        A.   I cannot say because I never saw that order.

15        Q.   All right.  And at the time you received that order you were in

16     the JNA, were you not?

17        A.   I never received this order, Mr. Harmon, because -- because my

18     superior command was -- well, the superior command to the command of the

19     1st Operations Group was the command which previously had been in Zagreb,

20     and that was the command of the north-west front line and theatre, which

21     then went to Sarajevo and subsequently there occurred those events in

22     Dobrovoljacka Street, but I've never seen this order issued by the SSNO

23     and I've never acted upon it.

24        Q.   Okay.  Did you ever go to the 1st Operations Group, the 4th

25     Partisan Brigade, in Vrginmost?  And that calls for a yes or no answer?

Page 13316

 1        A.   I went to the 1st Operations Group, that's one thing.  But I

 2     repeat, I went to the command of the 4th Partisan Brigade on the 18th of

 3     May, 1992, after the JNA had withdrawn and after there was no command of

 4     Operations Group 1.

 5        Q.   When you went to the 1st Operations Group, were you a member of

 6     the JNA?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. HARMON:  Now if we could turn the page in English.  I'd like

 9     to look at the next entry in order.

10        Q.   This entry says:

11             "Assigned to TO of the SAO of Krajina to the STO," which means

12     territorial defence staff, "of the 3rd Banija-Kordun operations zone in

13     Glina."

14             Did you assume that particular position?

15        A.   Mr. Harmon, instead of the command of the operations Group 1,

16     there was established one operations group for Kordun and another

17     operations group for Banija instead of the command of the Operations

18     Group 1 which was in charge of Kordun and Banija both.  I was in charge

19     of the operations group for Kordun.

20        Q.   And at the time you assumed that position were you a member of

21     the JNA?

22        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

23        Q.   Now, this entry reflects that this was pursuant to an order.  It

24     says "NPU."  What does NPU stand for?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought you asked that question.

Page 13317

 1             MR. HARMON:  I think I did ask that, Your Honour.  I'll withdraw

 2     the question.

 3        Q.   It says pursuant to the NPU of the SSNO, and it gives a number

 4     and a date.  Did you receive a copy of that order?

 5        A.   No, Mr. Harmon.

 6        Q.   And so how was it you moved from the operations group in Belgrade

 7     to the Krajina as a JNA officer without an order?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness's answer was

10     not that he was in operations group in Belgrade.  I believe that

11     Mr. Harmon has misinterpreted the witness's answer given previously.

12             MR. HARMON:  I understood --

13        Q.   Maybe I understood, General -- but let's clarify this point right

14     now.  Were you in an operations group -- were you assigned in Belgrade

15     before you went to the Krajina?

16        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

17        Q.   Okay.

18        A.   I told you that I was sent for schooling to Belgrade.

19        Q.   Okay.  Then my question -- I maintain my question.  How was it

20     you went from schooling in Belgrade to the Krajina without receiving an

21     order from the JNA?

22        A.   I don't know where you get that from.  I did not say that.  I

23     stated that I received that order.  I don't believe we should skip from

24     one order to another and create confusion.  So the order stating

25     temporarily seconded to the 5th Military District of the 1st Operations

Page 13318

 1     Group, no garrison assignment, chief of personnel administration of the

 2     SSNO, 24-286, 27th September, 1991, that order was given to me while I

 3     was in Belgrade in military school by Mr. -- General Koturovic, and this

 4     means that I did not go to Krajina without an order.

 5        Q.   Then we understand each other.  You did go to the Krajina

 6     pursuant to an order of the JNA?

 7        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 8        Q.   Now, let's look at the entry that states that you were assigned

 9     for the purpose of representation to the MUP of the Government of the RSK

10     to the formation of the special police unit, Vojnic garrison.  Was

11     that -- at the time you -- did you assume that position?

12        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

13        Q.   At the time you assumed that position, were you a member of the

14     JNA?

15        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.  The JNA still existed at the time.

16        Q.   And did you -- were you assigned to that position pursuant to the

17     order that is reflected in the right-hand column of this entry?

18        A.   I believe so.  I do not recall that order specifically, but I

19     believe that this was so.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now you've told us in your direct examination about the

21     next two entries, and I won't go into those two entries.  You see the two

22     entries I'm referring to?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   If we continue in your personnel file, sir, we then --

25             MR. HARMON:  If we could turn the page in the -- both the B/C/S

Page 13319

 1     and in English.

 2        Q.   Now, the next entry that appears in your personnel file is the

 3     entry that relates to your termination -- your retroactive termination

 4     from the VJ on -- in December of 1994.  Can you -- having looked at this

 5     personnel file, is there any reflection in your personnel file, in this

 6     portion of your personnel file, that shows that when you accepted duties

 7     at the SVK you terminated your service in the VJ?

 8        A.   As far as my duty, Mr. Harmon, it is true that I terminated my

 9     service in the Army of Yugoslavia.  However, I maintained the status of

10     an officer of the VJ.

11        Q.   So in the personnel file there is no reflection that you

12     terminated your service from the VJ, is there?

13        A.   Please, Mr. Harmon, shall we go back to the previous or preceding

14     page?

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. HARMON:  If we could assist the witness and go back to the

17     preceding page.

18        Q.   Can you show me on this page where it is that you terminated your

19     service in the VJ.

20        A.   The penultimate entry in the Serbian language, it states here --

21     it's -- he's deployed to the 1st Army, garrison not yet determined, dated

22     30th of May, 1992.

23             Mr. Harmon, in reality there must exist a document that I saw

24     with Mr. Lukic where I declare and sign that I stay in the

25     Territorial Defence of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  This is not

Page 13320

 1     recorded here in those entries, and this reference, deployed to the

 2     1st Army, garrison not yet determined, refers to the offer to those who

 3     stayed in the Territorial Defence of the RSK in order to regulate the

 4     housing issues.  The very fact that the garrison has not yet been

 5     determined means that I was not assigned a duty in the Army of

 6     Yugoslavia.  And the last entry on this page in the Serbian language,

 7     I've already commented upon it in my previous testimony.  By a decree of

 8     the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, at one point I did

 9     at the request of Mr. Martic get an appointment to the General Staff of

10     the VJ to the post of --

11        Q.   Sir, sir --

12        A.   -- head or chief of the infantry administration --

13        Q.   -- let me interrupt you.  My question to you was:  Where is it

14     reflected in your personnel file that you terminated your service in the

15     VJ prior to the entry that shows you were retroactively retired?

16        A.   Mr. Harmon, the very fact that in this personnel file you can

17     find the duty that I was assigned to confirm what I've been stating, and

18     which is true, that I did not hold any post in the VJ.  I reiterate, I

19     maintained the status of an officer in the VJ after having the status of

20     an officer of the JNA, but I held no duty in the Army of Yugoslavia,

21     apart from this one that I tried to tell you about but you interrupted

22     me, which I never assumed.

23        Q.   Okay.  So I take it, sir, that we are in agreement then that your

24     personnel file does not reflect that you terminated your service in the

25     VJ?  Now, you testified earlier, General Novakovic, about Article 107 of

Page 13321

 1     the Law on the VJ, which deals specifically with termination from

 2     professional military service.  And one of the bases of --

 3             MR. HARMON:  Mr. Lukic is standing so I will --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not recall that at any point

 6     General Novakovic testified about Article 107 of the VJ act.  I have not

 7     shown it to him.  If Mr. Harmon were to broach that subject, it would be

 8     useful to have this document placed in front of the witness.

 9             MR. HARMON:  He did discuss Article 107 this morning.  He said

10     that General Perisic told him at the -- when he had a conversation with

11     General Perisic that Article 107 was invalid.  I think that's on page 22

12     or 23 of this morning's transcript.  I'm happy to place Article -- if we

13     could have P197 put on the screen, please.  And the reference to Article

14     107 was page 21, line 23.  If we could turn to Article 107 in this

15     document.  It's page 25 of the English, and in the Serbian language --

16     just a moment, please.  Page 9.  The English is on page 25.

17        Q.   Sir, this is the Law on the Army.  It is Article 107 of the Law

18     on the Army, and it indicates under what circumstances a professional

19     military officer or non-commissioned officer shall be terminated.  And

20     you can see a number of sub-points, 1 through 6, and you can see

21     thereafter it -- that it -- there is also a reference to military service

22     being terminated when there are 30 years of pensionable service, years of

23     service, and if the needs of the service so require, and et cetera.

24             So my question, sir, is:  Did you terminate your service in the

25     VJ at your own request when you started your service in the SVK?

Page 13322

 1        A.   I did not have an occasion to send a personal request.  Rather,

 2     as I stated, I was told that the Supreme Council decided that the three

 3     generals, the three of us, be pensioned off.

 4        Q.   Sir, you've misunderstood my question.  My question was:  Before

 5     you were retroactively retired and at any time prior to or during your

 6     service in the SVK, did you voluntarily terminate your service in the VJ,

 7     yes or no?

 8        A.   Mr. Harmon, if under service in the VJ you mean formally

 9     maintaining the status of an officer of the VJ, then I can tell you that

10     I sent no such request ever.  However, if under service in the VJ you

11     mean also performing a duty and existing within the forces of the VJ in

12     the organic sense, then it was not the case [as interpreted].

13        Q.   Now, while you were serving in the SVK, General Novakovic, what

14     remuneration did you receive from the authorities in the RSK?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think on page 38, line 10, it says

17     "then it was not the case," and I think it's a wrong translation.  I

18     think the witness said something different.

19             MR. HARMON:

20        Q.   Witness, can you remember your answer and can you repeat your

21     answer, please.  You said:

22             "However, if under the service in the VJ you mean ...  performing

23     a duty ..."

24             Can you complete that sentence for us, please, because there may

25     be a problem.

Page 13323

 1        A.   Yes.  Performing a duty or being a part of the VJ in the organic

 2     sense, then it is not true.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now can we continue with the question I asked

 4     you.  Can you tell us, sir, while you were serving in the SVK what

 5     remuneration you received from the RSK for your services?

 6        A.   None.

 7        Q.   Who paid your salary?

 8        A.   If you can call it a salary, then it came from the General Staff

 9     of the VJ.

10        Q.   Who paid your pension and who continues to pay your pension?

11        A.   Nowadays, it is the Republic of Serbia.  However, Mr. Harmon, I

12     think we're skipping over some important matters by your leave --

13        Q.   Sir, let me ask the questions.  And if you need to explain

14     something -- but my questions I think are fairly clear and concrete.  Who

15     paid your pension?  I'll ask you a slightly different question.

16             Who paid your pension after you were retroactively retired?

17        A.   Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

18        Q.   Do they continue to pay your pension to this day?

19        A.   No, no longer.  Nowadays it is the Republic of Serbia.

20        Q.   While you were serving in the SVK, who paid your medical benefits

21     and insurance?

22        A.   Just like other former officers of the Yugoslav People's Army who

23     maintained their status within the VJ were paid -- had their medical

24     insurance through the Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of

25     Yugoslavia.  I think that it came under their jurisdiction.

Page 13324

 1        Q.   And who resolved your housing issues?  Who was in charge of your

 2     housing?

 3        A.   Mr. Harmon, my housing was provided only in January of last year,

 4     something to what I was entitled to.  My suffering, if I can say so,

 5     lasted for a long time and I had to move nine times within that period of

 6     time.

 7        Q.   And so -- do I understand you to say that you received no housing

 8     benefits from the date of your retroactive retirement until last year

 9     from any governmental source of any kind?

10        A.   No, Mr. Harmon.  That is not true.  Until January of last year I

11     did not have housing.  During that time I received certain compensation

12     specified by legislation because my housing had not been provided.

13        Q.   Thank you for that clarification, General.  Who provided you with

14     those compensations?

15        A.   The Republic of Serbia, whose citizen I am.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, yesterday we touched upon the topic of your salary,

17     and you testified you didn't care much about the salary you were

18     receiving.  Do you remember that testimony?

19        A.   I do.  I remember it very well, Mr. Harmon.

20        Q.   Sir, while you were serving in the SVK, did you receive

21     additional compensation in addition to your normal salary?

22        A.   I think that there was an amount paid for serving in hardship

23     circumstances, whether it was paid to us at that time or retroactively I

24     really couldn't tell you right now.

25             MR. HARMON:  Could I have P177 [sic] on the monitor, and I'm --

Page 13325

 1     would like English -- e-court English translation 06117677 ET and the

 2     B/C/S page 86 on the monitor, please.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it 177 you want or 1777?

 4             MR. HARMON:  I thought I said -- I made a special effort to say

 5     three 7s, Your Honour.  Apparently I didn't.  I failed.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Both occasions you failed.

 7             MR. HARMON:  I failed.  Triple 7.

 8        Q.   Sir, before you is a decision dated the 10th of February, 1994.

 9     Can you take a look at that, sir, and does this refresh your

10     recollection?

11        A.   I don't know.  I'm not sure that I have ever seen this and that

12     this was ever given to me.  If this was indeed drawn up, it was drawn up

13     for the personnel centre.  I don't remember seeing this.

14        Q.   Well, this is a document, sir, that grants you additional

15     compensation for service under difficult or special conditions, and that

16     means during the period of time that you were serving in the SVK.  Do you

17     remember receiving that additional compensation over and above your

18     salary?

19        A.   I don't remember, Mr. Harmon, and I don't see that this was

20     indeed decided that way here.  Do -- you see here basic salary and then

21     blank times factor.  So --

22        Q.   Sir, let me direct your attention -- let me direct your attention

23     to sub-part (C) of -- it looks to me like it is about a third of the way

24     down the page and it says that you were granted additional compensation

25     in the amount of 4 per cent of the basic salary.  Do you see that?

Page 13326

 1        A.   I don't see that.  It says 4, but what this figure 4 is about, I

 2     don't know.  If it's 4 per cent of the basic salary -- then when you see

 3     what the salary was, then you can calculate what 4 per cent of that

 4     salary it was.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's see if we can make it larger for you to see,

 6     and -- is that better for you to see now, sir?  We can -- can you read

 7     that, sir?  If you're having difficulties, sir, let me give you a --

 8     [Microphone not activated]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10             MR. HARMON:

11        Q.   If you're having difficulty, I can provide you with a hard copy

12     of this document, sir.  It might assist you in reading it.

13        A.   I can see.

14             Yes.  This is percentage.  Under (C) after figure 4 it says per

15     cent.  That's what it looks like to me.

16        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.  I'm finished with that document.

17             Sir, in addition to that compensation did you apply on the 19th

18     of December, 2000, for the VJ to compensate you for unused annual leave

19     which you had not taken in 1991, 1992, 1993, and 1994?

20        A.   I did, Mr. Harmon.  I followed suit after a number of officers

21     did it, inquiring why I hadn't done it myself.  This is when I did it.

22             MR. HARMON:  And could I have P1880 on the monitor, please.

23             I'm not seeing the B/C/S version on the stand -- on the monitor.

24     So again I have a hard copy.  I can provide this to the witness.  I'm

25     sorry.  If we could have page 23 of the B/C/S then it will appear on the

Page 13327

 1     monitor.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Sir, can you read that?  Otherwise I have a hard copy.  I

 3     can provide you with a hard copy.  It might make it easier for you to

 4     read.  With the assistance of the usher --

 5        A.   Yes, yes, I can.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Could we scroll up on the English version, please.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, have you had a chance to look at that decision?

 8        A.   Yes, I have seen this decision.

 9        Q.   Did you receive a copy of that decision, sir?

10        A.   Yes.  I received it from Colonel Begovic.  I know him personally

11     and this decision was given to me and they acted upon it.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I'm finished with that document, sir.

13             I want to focus on your retroactive retirement.  You told us

14     today that there was a sentiment that was against you from the highest

15     political and military levels as a result of the loss of the Krajina.

16     That's how I understood your testimony.  Did I understand it correctly?

17        A.   If you're referring to the period after August 1995, then yes

18     that's correct.  That's the period I had in mind in my answer.

19        Q.   And were you and the other generals, General Bjelanovic,

20     General Mrksic, and General Celeketic considered responsible in some --

21     in the eyes of the political establishment and the military establishment

22     for the loss of the Krajina?

23        A.   Are you asking me whether political and military establishment of

24     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia considered us responsible for that?

25        Q.   That's what I was asking you, sir.

Page 13328

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  You testified that you were informed that there was a

 3     decision of the Supreme Defence Council that you were to be retroactively

 4     retired.  Did you see a copy of that decision or that session of the

 5     Supreme Defence Council?

 6        A.   I didn't see the decision of the Supreme Defence Council then.

 7     They handed me the presidential decree of the Federal Republic of

 8     Yugoslavia, Mr. Lilic, which I have in my possession to this day, as well

 9     as the decision of the personnel administration which was drafted

10     pursuant to the presidential decree.  Both of these documents pertain to

11     my retirement.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. HARMON:  Could we have P766 under seal, so we'll have to go

14     into private session.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

16     [Private session]  [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in private session.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. HARMON:  Could we have -- and I would like to have English

20     page 2 and B/C/S page 2 on the monitor, please.  I can give the witness a

21     hard copy.  It might be of assistance to him.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't need it, Mr. Harmon.  Thank

23     you.

24             MR. HARMON:

25        Q.   All right.  Now, this, sir, what is before you are the minutes of

Page 13329

 1     the 45th Session of the Supreme Defence Council that was held on the 5th

 2     of October, 1995.  And if you kindly read that, and then when you get to

 3     the bottom of the page in your language would you let me know and we can

 4     turn the page and we can see the remaining text.

 5             MR. HARMON:  And, Your Honours, I'm directing Your Honours

 6     obviously to item 3.

 7             Could we turn to the next page in the Serbian language version.

 8        Q.   Have you read that, sir?

 9        A.   Mr. Harmon, I have page 3 rather than item 3.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And item 3 was previously on the

12     screen.

13             MR. HARMON:

14        Q.   I have -- I'd given you an opportunity to read, sir.  It appears

15     to be item 3.  It's the highlighted portion in yellow.  Have you read the

16     highlighted portion in yellow?  That was the portion I wanted to direct

17     your attention to.

18        A.   Yes, I've read it.

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   What's on this page, yes, item 3.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.  Now, this is the document that

22     generated your retroactive retirement.  This reflects the debate and the

23     discussion and the decisions that led to your retroactive retirement.

24     Now, I'm interested in your comments on this text.

25        A.   I can repeat what I stated earlier today, and that is that it

Page 13330

 1     seemed to me that the then-state and military leadership of the Federal

 2     Republic of Yugoslavia thought that it was most convenient to blame us

 3     entirely for the fall of Krajina.  I do not want to pardon myself or

 4     anybody else for what had happened.  And this is why they passed this

 5     decision.  To tell you the truth, I don't know what other decision they

 6     could have made.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. HARMON:  We can go into public session, Your Honour.  Thank

 9     you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:

16        Q.   Were you aware, General Novakovic, that General Perisic

17     contemplated criminal and disciplinary proceedings to be taken against

18     you and against Generals Celeketic, Bjelanovic, and Mrksic for the

19     responsibility that he asserted you had in the fall of the Krajina?

20        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.  At one point he told us that when he informed

21     us of the decision of the Supreme Council on our retirement.  I

22     immediately commented on that by saying that that would have been the

23     most beneficial solution for all three of us, but if they were to try us

24     that would be a trial against the Army of Yugoslavia primarily.  And this

25     is what he should count on, and that for us the best way to establish the

Page 13331

 1     truth about what had happened would be to have that trial take place.

 2        Q.   What was it precisely that General Perisic informed you about in

 3     respect of proceedings, criminal or disciplinary proceedings?

 4        A.   Just a note for interpreters.  He uttered just one sentence,

 5     namely, that there was a possibility for that.  He did not expand on it.

 6        Q.   I see.  So he said there was a possibility of what?  I'd like you

 7     to try to recall because -- to the best of your recollection precisely

 8     the words he used.

 9        A.   That there was a possibility that a court would look into our

10     responsibility.  That's the sentence I remember because it was of great

11     importance for me.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, who was -- sir, who was Colonel Bulat?

13        A.   The late Colonel Bulat, his first name was Cedomir, was commander

14     of the 21st Kordun Corps.  He was removed from that post subsequently.

15     When on Saturday, the 5th of August, 1995, I returned from Geneva and

16     found a dispatch of General Mrksic appointing me deputy commander of the

17     Serbian Army for Kordun and Banija, commanders of brigades of the

18     Kordun Corps requested that Colonel Bulat be appointed corps commander so

19     that they -- because they, soldiers and the people, had more faith in him

20     than the then-commander, Colonel Bosanac.  I accepted that, and from the

21     5th of August until the end Colonel Bulat was the corps commander.

22             MR. HARMON:  Could we have Prosecution Exhibit 2202 on the

23     monitor, and I'm interested in e-court English translation 06187763 ET,

24     page 1; and B/C/S page 12.

25        Q.   Sir -- and this is a text taken from the collegium of the

Page 13332

 1     General Staff dated the 30th of October, 1995.  And you will see a

 2     portion of -- I want to direct your attention to the portion that deals

 3     with Risto Matovic, the second entry for Risto Matovic.  There are two

 4     paragraphs.

 5             MR. HARMON:  And I direct Your Honours' attention as well to the

 6     second entry for Risto Matovic.

 7        Q.   Sir, have you had a chance to read that text?

 8        A.   Now I have the chance to read what it says here, Mr. Harmon.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Having read that text, sir, first of all, can you tell us

10     who General Risto Matovic is?

11        A.   I don't know what -- which duty he held in the General Staff,

12     maybe for mobilisation call-up -- well, one of the top brass within the

13     General Staff, but I don't know his precise duty or post.

14        Q.   Now, this text reads:

15             "In the sector we have launched an investigation against Bulat

16     and it is completed.  Five witnesses and suspects were interviewed.  The

17     committee with General Ristic at the helm proposes to institute

18     proceedings against him to inculpate him and to punish him.  We have the

19     complete material now."

20             Were you aware that the VJ had launched an investigation against

21     Colonel Bulat?

22        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

23        Q.   What -- when did you become aware that the VJ had launched an

24     investigation against Colonel Bulat?

25        A.   From Colonel Bulat himself.

Page 13333

 1        Q.   And when was that?  When did you learn that, in 1995, 1996, 1997?

 2        A.   I think it was immediately in 1995.  It seems to me to be so,

 3     Mr. Harmon.  I cannot be too precise about that, but I believe it was

 4     still 1995 or maybe the beginning of 1996.  Of course after August 1995.

 5        Q.   And Colonel Bulat was being investigated for what reason?

 6        A.   Mr. Harmon, I think it went for military disciplinary courts and

 7     tribunals which existed in the army at the time which tried disciplinary

 8     infractions and had certain jurisdiction over certain matters.

 9        Q.   And for what reason was he being --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to be more precise.  I

12     think it's important when it comes to the use of the term.  Mr. Harmon

13     mentions investigation and here it is stated "examination" or "inquiry."

14     I think those -- this distinction is important.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where does it say "inquiry," Mr. Lukic?

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm reading the B/C/S version, the

17     second paragraph of Mr. Matovic's intervention.  It is stated here:

18             "In the sector we instituted inquiries against Bulat..."

19     et cetera.

20             As you see in English, the term is followed by a question mark

21     and it says "investigation" question mark.  And the interpreters in the

22     booth in my opinion correctly translated that very specific legal term

23     with a very important legal distinction.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Interpreter, are you saying -- when you say

25     the interpreters in the booth in my opinion, are you telling us your

Page 13334

 1     opinion or you are translating?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  I'm interpreting Mr. Lukic's words.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 4             Anyway, Mr. Lukic, I -- in the translation that we have before us

 5     we don't have a question mark after "investigation."  We've got a

 6     question mark before "an," after "launched" and a slash.  I am prepared

 7     to accept that you are saying that somebody is querying the

 8     interpretation there or the translation there.

 9             Mr. Harmon.

10             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I asked the witness if he was aware if

11     there was an investigation opened against Colonel Bulat, and he answered

12     affirmatively.  So I think that resolves the issue, not the issue of

13     whether the text is right but the issue of whether the fact is right.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. HARMON:

16        Q.   Now, sir, I had asked you before the intervention by my colleague

17     Mr. Lukic:  And Colonel Bulat was being investigated for what reason?

18     Why was he being investigated?

19        A.   A disciplinary inquiry and not investigation against

20     Colonel Bulat, my mistake.  I failed to notice that - was initiated

21     because of the surrender of the 21st Kordun Corps to the Croatian Army at

22     the time while he was corps commander.

23        Q.   Okay.  So this was a disciplinary inquiry being conducted by the

24     VJ for Colonel Bulat's actions in surrendering the 21st Corps of the SVK

25     to the Croatian army; do I understand you correctly?

Page 13335

 1        A.   This is evident from this document, Mr. Harmon.

 2        Q.   So I take it the answer is I did understand you correctly and

 3     that's the reason why he was being -- there was a disciplinary inquiry?

 4        A.   This disciplinary inquiry did take place.  It's stated here that

 5     I was interviewed.  I remember that correctly.  And -- but he -- no

 6     disciplinary sanction was meted out to Colonel Bulat.

 7        Q.   Was Colonel Bulat brought before a disciplinary -- a VJ

 8     disciplinary inquiry panel and questioned himself?

 9        A.   I couldn't know that, Mr. Harmon.  What I do know is that I gave

10     my statement to General Ristic in the presence of that general and

11     Mr. Bulat.

12        Q.   Okay.  So, General, how was it that you were -- what were the

13     circumstances under which you gave a statement to General Ristic?  Were

14     you summoned to appear before General Ristic at a certain date and a

15     time?

16        A.   No, Mr. Harmon.  First Colonel Bulat came to me to ask me to

17     provide a statement during that inquiry.  After that, he arranged with

18     the gentleman who was in charge of that inquiry, and it's stated here

19     that this was Mr. Ristic, for me to get somewhere at a certain date -- on

20     a certain date at a certain time.  There was no official summons or writ,

21     and I just came there and told them what I knew.

22        Q.   Now, the recommendation of General Ristic was that proceedings be

23     instituted against Colonel Bulat.  Were they ever instituted?  Were any

24     sanctions ever imposed against Colonel Bulat for giving up the 21st Corps

25     to the Croatian Army?

Page 13336

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness answered

 3     this question on page 50, line 5.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Page 51, line 5.

 5             MR. HARMON:  I asked the question if there were any sanctions.

 6     That's a broader question, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, at page 51, line 5, it says:

 8             "I remember that correctly.  And -- but he" -- sorry, my page is

 9     running away, "but he - no disciplinary sanction was meted out to

10     Colonel Bulat."

11             So you're saying you're asking about sanctions.  He's talking

12     about sanctions there.

13             MR. HARMON:  Disciplinary sanctions.  I'm asking if there were

14     any sanctions imposed against him and the question is different.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Yes.

16             MR. HARMON:

17        Q.   Sir, you can answer -- with the Court's permission you can answer

18     the question.

19        A.   Mr. Harmon, what I stated, that he did not receive any sanction,

20     I state that on the basis of the following.  Colonel Bulat, who was a

21     close friend of mine, never told me that any disciplinary measures had

22     been meted out in connection with these events.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.

24             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, it's 12.00 and this would be an

25     appropriate time to take a break.

Page 13337

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at half past

 2     12.00.  Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   General, I want to focus your attention on the documents that you

 8     were provided that resulted in your retroactive retirement.

 9             MR. HARMON:  If I could first of all have P1912 on the monitor.

10        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this document as being the presidential

11     decree of President Lilic retroactively retiring you from professional

12     military service, and it's dated the 22nd of December, 1994?

13        A.   Yes, I do believe I have an original of this document.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, we know that this date of the 22nd of December, 1994,

15     as being the date of the decree is false; correct?

16        A.   I think it is not, Mr. Harmon.

17        Q.   Well, the decree -- this decree was not promulgated on the 22nd

18     of December, 1994, because you were still in service in the SVK until I

19     think you told us the 17th of October, 1995.  You were still actively

20     serving in the military.  So do you accept, General Novakovic, that the

21     date of this decree was not in fact the 22nd of December, 1994?

22        A.   In terms of the time when I was told about it and the time during

23     which I was treated from the date on this document until the 17th of

24     October, 1995, I do believe that this document was not created on that

25     date.

Page 13338

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, I want to direct your attention, sir, to

 2     the last paragraph in English, and it is the second paragraph under the

 3     reasons.

 4             MR. HARMON:  And if we could scroll up in the English version so

 5     we can see.  Yes, thank you.

 6        Q.   I'm directing your attention to the paragraph that reads:

 7             "In view of the above it was concluded that there are grounds for

 8     the professional military service of the above-named person to be

 9     terminated pursuant to Article 107, paragraph 2, of the Law on the

10     Yugoslav Army."

11             Now, this morning you testified - and I'm referring to your

12     testimony at page 21, lines 22 to 25, and I want to clarify this

13     point - your testimony in response to a question from Mr. Lukic was that:

14             "The date of retirement," this is what General Perisic allegedly

15     told you, that:  "The date of the retirement had to be what it was

16     because in late 1994 Article 107 of the Law on the Army became invalid

17     and that article enabled servicemen to retire based on their years of

18     service and their age."

19             Is that what General Perisic told you?

20        A.   I understood it to be -- that the needs for this date to be

21     determined so stemmed from that circumstance.  I cannot claim that

22     Mr. Perisic told me.  What I can say that Mr. Perisic or somebody else

23     told me, that this would be the legal basis for my retirement to be

24     regulated.

25        Q.   So really, General Novakovic, I'm just focusing on the word

Page 13339

 1     "invalid" that appears in the text of the transcript today.  Were you

 2     told that Article 107 became invalid or that it was valid?

 3        A.   I think it was said that the Article 107 was in effect until the

 4     31st of December of the preceding year.

 5        Q.   Fine.  That clarifies the transcript error that -- that's all I

 6     was attempting to do, General Novakovic.

 7             MR. HARMON:  Now, if we could turn to P1913 and put that on the

 8     monitor, please.

 9        Q.   Sir, have you seen this document before?

10        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

11        Q.   This is the decision implementing the presidential decree

12     terminating you retroactively; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And again in this document on its face we can see a number of

15     false statements.  One, direct your attention to -- under statement of

16     reasons to the first paragraph where it says this decree was delivered to

17     you on the 25th of December, 1994.  That statement is false, isn't it?

18        A.   That's not correct, Mr. Harmon.

19        Q.   Was the decree -- this decree that you have before you delivered

20     to you on the 25th of December, 1994?

21        A.   What is written in this decision, that the decree was delivered

22     to me on the 25th of December, 1994, it's not true.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank -- that's what I was asking you.  Let's look at the

24     next sentence.  The next sentence says on the 30th of December, 1994, you

25     submitted a report stating that you had handed over your duty on that

Page 13340

 1     date.

 2             Did you submit a report stating that you had handed over your

 3     duty on the 30th of December, 1994?

 4        A.   No, I didn't.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Now, you received both the presidential decree, which we

 6     looked at before this exhibit, and this decision, you received that --

 7     those copies of those documents when?

 8        A.   Sometime after the 17th of December or maybe on that date or a

 9     couple of days afterwards in 1995.

10        Q.   Okay.  And --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, is it December or October?  [Microphone not

12     activated].

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for His Honour, please.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it after the 17th of October or 17th of

15     December?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, October, October.

17     My mistake.

18             MR. HARMON:

19        Q.   Now, sir, when you received copies of those two decisions, did

20     you sign a delivery note?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you backdate the delivery note to reflect the 25th of

23     December, 1994?

24        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

25        Q.   Why was it, sir, that you backdated the delivery -- the receipt

Page 13341

 1     note to December the 25th, 1994?  Why didn't you put the correct date

 2     when you received those two decisions on the delivery note?

 3        A.   Because this was the only way for this whole situation to be

 4     resolved and because this was the position as related to me of the -- of

 5     both the Supreme Defence Council, president of the republic, president of

 6     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and chief of the personnel

 7     department.  It was explained to me that I should place such a date on

 8     that document for this document to be valid.

 9        Q.   And who told you to place the false date on the document?

10        A.   The personnel officers who technically drafted those document.

11        Q.   You -- by name do you recall who those personnel officers were

12     who drafted these documents?

13        A.   I think chief of personnel administration was General Zoric or a

14     lieutenant-colonel who was involved in drafting those.  I know that he

15     graduated from the military academy, but I cannot recall his either first

16     or last name.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, let's -- I want to explore with you another topic.

18     The retirement, retroactive retirement, retired you back until -- on the

19     30th of December, 1994.  You were in actual military service until

20     October of 1995; correct?

21        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

22        Q.   And as an officer serving through October of 1995, you were

23     entitled to certain benefits, including pension benefits; correct?

24        A.   When we discuss duty, Mr. Harmon, maybe we should be more

25     precise.  In actual fact I held a duty in the SVK until the 10th of

Page 13342

 1     August, 1995.  I held no other duty after that date.  And whatever I

 2     received was the salary.

 3        Q.   So with those dates in mind, let's frame the time-period.  From

 4     the date of your retroactive retirement, you continued serving a duty in

 5     the SVK until the 10th of August, 1995, for which you would have accrued

 6     certain pension benefits; isn't that correct?

 7        A.   That would mean higher pension, maybe a housing issue being

 8     resolved, et cetera.

 9        Q.   Sir, I'm trying to focus on one narrow issue here:  Your pension

10     benefits.  As an acting military -- professional military officer serving

11     in the military, under the VJ you were entitled to receive pension

12     benefits until your service was terminated; correct?  I'm sorry that's a

13     bad -- that's a poorly framed question.  Let me rephrase the question.

14             General Novakovic, you were entitled -- you were earning pension

15     benefits and rights as long as you were in active military service.

16     That's the normal procedure, isn't it?

17        A.   As far as I know, yes.

18        Q.   Okay.  Your active military service you've just told us ended the

19     10th of August, 1995; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You were retroactively terminated in December of 1994.  We know

22     that from the documents.  My question, sir, is:  Did you and do you

23     receive pension benefits for the time you were in active military service

24     between December of 1994 and the 10th of August, 1995?

25        A.   Frankly speaking, Mr. Harmon, those were minor details for me.

Page 13343

 1     What was important for me was to conclude my active military service --

 2        Q.   Let me interrupt you for a minute.  My question was very clear

 3     and quite precise.  I'll repeat it.  Did you and do you receive pension

 4     benefits from the time you were in active military service between

 5     December of 1994 and the 10th of August, 1995?

 6        A.   In reality, yes.  But if I was retired as of 30th of December,

 7     1994, if that's what you want to hear, I think that that bit was not

 8     calculated into my years of service, did not count for the pension

 9     benefits.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I don't understand.  You started off by saying

12     "in reality, yes," meaning that yes you do receive pension for the period

13     of the 30th of December, 1994, to August 1995.  And now your next

14     sentence is but you think that that bit was not calculated.  Surely, if

15     you -- if the answer -- first answer is yes, yes, you do receive it, then

16     it was calculated.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in accordance with

18     the laws in force then, had I been retired with the actual factual date

19     when I served in the SVK, then the period between the backdated date of

20     retirement and -- which is the 30th of December, 1994 - and the later

21     date, the 10th of August, 1995, which is when factually my engagement in

22     the SVK was terminated and during which period of time I had status in

23     the VJ, would be calculated as years of service for which pension

24     benefits accrue, as Mr. Harmon says.  This is how I understood it.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So your answer to his question is:  Yes, you

Page 13344

 1     were -- you are getting pension for that period, 30th of December, 1994,

 2     to 10th of August, 1995, that's the short answer?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it did not get included.  Had

 4     it been done in accordance with the law, it would have been included; but

 5     since this was done with backdating, then obviously it was not.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you are not receiving it.  Okay.

 7             MR. HARMON:  Okay.

 8             Now, let me turn now to a different document.  If I could have

 9     P1914 on the monitor.

10        Q.   While we're waiting for P1914 to appear on the monitor, General,

11     can you tell -- is there a reason why you didn't receive the housing

12     benefits to which you were entitled as a general until last year?

13        A.   When I addressed the housing organ in the Belgrade garrison in

14     1995, they told me that I was not entitled to housing from the army

15     because I was a pensioner.  Then I went to the fund for pensioners and I

16     applied to them for housing as a pensioner.  Two years later in the fund

17     for pensioners for veterans, they told me that they were not competent to

18     give me housing because I was denied housing in Zagreb as an active

19     officer of the JNA and not as a military pensioner.  And they directed me

20     to apply to the housing organ of the VJ in the Belgrade garrison.  When I

21     went there they told me that I was not entitled to apply for housing

22     because I had not done it while I was in active duty.  It wasn't until

23     General Mrksic and Colonel Bulat intervened and all of us knew that we

24     had all applied for housing while in Krajina, they managed to find the

25     cover of my personnel file which had been sent to Raska garrison,

Page 13345

 1     where -- which I never -- where I never was, and I only passed through

 2     the town of Raska once in my life.  And it wasn't until then that I was

 3     allowed to apply for housing.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now, you see on the monitor in front of you, sir, a

 5     document.  That's a document that bears your signature; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, can you slowly read that document into the record.  And I'm

 8     only referring to the portion under the word "statement."  There's a

 9     single sentence.  Can you read that into the record, please.

10        A.   "I hereby state that in accordance with the order of the Chief of

11     the General Staff of the VJ, I accept to be assigned as required by the

12     service in the Army of Yugoslavia."

13        Q.   Can you tell me the circumstances under which you prepared this

14     document?

15        A.   At that time General Mrksic, the then-army commander;

16     General Bjelanovic; me; and some other officers were in Banja Luka, in

17     Republika Srpska.  General Mrksic at one point in time went to Belgrade.

18     I know he had a problem.  He had to go there illegally by crossing the

19     river in a boat.  And after that visit he told us that all of us had to

20     write this sort of a statement and all of us did.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just understand what you mean by "at that

22     time ...  the then-army commander ..." do you mean on the 16th of

23     September, 1995?  You have been asking us to be very precise.  I want to

24     know whether on the 16th of September, 1995, General Mrksic was a

25     commander; and if so, in which army?  Because I think by then the SVK was

Page 13346

 1     no longer there, isn't it?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  It pertains to

 3     this very date.  As you can see in the heading, it says "Banja Luka,"

 4     which is in Republika Srpska.  We were all together and we considered

 5     ourselves the remnants of that army, which in reality no longer existed.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  So he was not a commander on that day

 7     because the army didn't exist on the 16th of September.

 8             Just so that we understand, two years down the line when we read

 9     what you wrote here we want to know exactly what you meant by this.

10     Okay.  Anyway, I understand now.  Thank you very much.

11             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

12             MR. HARMON:  Okay.

13        Q.   Who prepared the text of this document?

14        A.   I think that I worded this myself, bearing in mind the words of

15     General Mrksic.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21             MR. HARMON:  We have to go into private session.  I'm sorry.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session

23     and may we see that P766, Mr. Harmon.

24             MR. HARMON:  Yes.

25     [Private session]  [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

Page 13347

1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in private session.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 3             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 4             MR. HARMON:  Okay.

 5             Your Honour, we will have to redact, if we could, lines 18 and 19

 6     on page 62.  I quoted in part a protected document.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May it be, please, so redacted.

 8             MR. HARMON:

 9        Q.   General, if we have -- we're going to have to go to the item 3 of

10     this document in English and in B/C/S, please, page 2 of the English.

11     And I think the portion of the paragraph that I want to cite is on page 2

12     of the Serbian language as well.

13             MR. HARMON:  And I want to direct Your Honours' attention to the

14     second paragraph under item 3.

15        Q.   And, General Novakovic, I'd like to do the same to you.  This

16     paragraph says that:

17             "Prior to passing the enactment, the Chief of the General Staff

18     is tasked with conducting an interview with the above-mentioned persons

19     in order to inform them of the decision of the Supreme Defence Council of

20     their duty to place themselves at the disposal of the 30th Personnel

21     Centre following the termination of their professional military service

22     in the Yugoslav Army."

23             Now, this -- were you ever informed, sir, of your duty to place

24     yourself at the disposal of the 30th Personnel Centre?

25        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

Page 13348

 1        Q.   Who told you that and when were you told that?

 2        A.   Mr. Perisic told me that when informing me of the decision on

 3     retirement.  I think it was then that I had to sign a statement to that

 4     effect.  The 30th Personnel Centre kept records for the persons in the

 5     VRS, but on the 16th of September, which is the date of this document, I

 6     still knew nothing about that.

 7        Q.   Okay.  If you were not a member of the VJ, what duty did you have

 8     to place yourself at the disposal of the 30th Personnel Centre?

 9        A.   Mr. Harmon, I would kindly ask you to put specific questions to

10     me so that I can give you specific answers.  Whether a member of the Army

11     of Yugoslavia to you means the same as a person with the status within

12     the VJ, when asking me whether I was a member of the VJ do you think it

13     is the same as having the status in the VJ while at the same time being a

14     member of the SVK in the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

15        Q.   My question to you, sir, was:  If you were not a member of the

16     VJ, what duty did you have to place yourself at the disposal of the 30th

17     Personnel Centre?  Can you answer that question, please.

18        A.   When I was retired, it was not clear what duty I had when I was

19     no longer member of the VJ.  I think that we're dealing with a political

20     position at this point in time.  How could the General Staff of the VJ

21     order me as a pensioner to put myself at the disposal of another army,

22     because I was to be placed at the disposal of the 30th Personnel Centre,

23     and I learned of this information simultaneously with learning about my

24     retirement, by way of the presidential decree, et cetera.

25        Q.   Did you put yourself at the disposal of the 30th Personnel

Page 13349

 1     Centre?

 2        A.   It did not even occur to me, Mr. Harmon, ever.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While Mr. Harmon is still looking at his monitor,

 5     can I ask a question.  When you did not put yourself at the disposal of

 6     the 30th personnel army -- personnel centre, were there any consequences

 7     for your not doing so?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There weren't, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Nobody tried to punish you or tried to inquire why

10     you don't obey this order?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MR. HARMON:

16        Q.   In your answer, General Novakovic, you say:

17             "Mr. Perisic," this is at page 64, line 1.

18             "Mr. Perisic told me that," that is the duty to place yourself at

19     the disposal of the 30th Personnel Centre, "when informing me of the

20     decision on retirement."

21             That was your answer.  General Perisic told you to place yourself

22     at the disposal.  What did you tell General Perisic?

23        A.   As for my duty to place myself at the disposal of the 30th

24     Personnel Centre, I didn't tell him anything in relation to that.

25        Q.   Sir, when did you have that -- what was the date of that

Page 13350

 1     conversation with General Perisic?

 2        A.   Based on my recollection - and I have repeated it several

 3     times - it was on the 17th of October, 1995.  However, I don't know

 4     whether the presidential decree and the decision were handed to me and

 5     whether I was supposed to sign the statement accepting to be placed at

 6     the disposal of the 30th Personnel Centre on that same day.

 7        Q.   So you're telling us that at no time did you place yourself at

 8     the disposal of the 30th Personnel Centre?

 9        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon, that's true.

10        Q.   Did you ever place yourself at the disposal of the commander of

11     the Army of Republika Srpska?

12        A.   Never, Mr. Harmon.

13             MR. HARMON:  Could we have Prosecution Exhibit 177 --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you still want to stay in --

15             MR. HARMON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And is it one -- two 7s --

17             MR. HARMON:  Three 7s.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Three 7s.  Okay.

19             MR. HARMON:  Three 7s.  And could we go into public session.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

24             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

25             MR. HARMON:  Could we have P1777 e-court English translation

Page 13351

 1     0611-7673 ET 1, B/C/S page 82 on the monitor.

 2        Q.   General Novakovic, is that your signature at the bottom of this

 3     document?

 4        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 5        Q.   Now, would you read in the last sentence in that document.

 6        A.   "I also hereby accept to be placed at the disposal of the

 7     commander of the Army of Republika Srpska."

 8             That's the last sentence, Mr. Harmon.

 9        Q.   Now, when did you write this document and where did you write

10     this document?

11        A.   Apparently in Belgrade, Mr. Harmon, and I think that it had to be

12     on the 17th of October, not on the 7th, as is stated here.  I think that

13     this document was created on the 17th of October, and I think that I

14     repeated twice in the last hour or so that I did sign a document of this

15     nature.

16        Q.   And this was a document -- was this with General Perisic present

17     or was this a result of a meeting that you had with General Perisic on

18     the 17th of October, 1995?

19        A.   The position of the Supreme Defence Council about us having to be

20     placed at the disposal of the 30th Personnel Centre is something that

21     General Perisic told us then, on the 17th of October.  I did not sign

22     this statement before him.  I signed it at the same time when I signed

23     the other paperwork, namely, the presidential decree, the decision, and

24     so on.

25        Q.   So you signed this document after you met with General Perisic on

Page 13352

 1     the 17th of October?

 2        A.   Yes.  Based on my best recollection, that's how it was,

 3     Mr. Harmon.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, when you -- in October of 1995, did you also return the

 5     stamp of the SVK -- a rubber stamp of the SVK to the VJ General Staff?

 6        A.   The stamp of the SVK and the diplomatic passport, I turned that

 7     over later and I have a record of that hand-over; I have it in my

 8     possession to this day.

 9        Q.   And to whom did you turn that over, both the diplomatic passport

10     of the SVK and the rubber stamp of the SVK?

11        A.   According to what I remember, I turned it over to the

12     General Staff.  As for the specific organ, I think it was the personnel

13     administration.  I'm not entirely sure.  I would need to check the

14     document that I have, but it's at home.

15        Q.   And, sir, why did you turn over to the General Staff of the VJ

16     the rubber stamp of the SVK?

17        A.   I didn't know whom else I could give it to, Mr. Harmon, and I

18     needed to have an official certificate that I no longer had it in my

19     possession.  So the most logical thing for me was to go to the

20     General Staff, to hand it over to them, so that they could put it in the

21     military museum.

22        Q.   And was it your intention to have it put into a military museum?

23        A.   I apologise.  That was just a comment I made in passing.  I

24     simply wanted to turn it over because I no longer was authorised to have

25     it.

Page 13353

 1        Q.   Didn't you turn it over because it was property of the VJ?

 2        A.   It was by no means the property of the VJ, either the diplomatic

 3     passport or the stamp.

 4        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much on that particular topic.  We're

 5     going to turn to another topic, General Novakovic, and the topic we're

 6     going to turn to is your assignment to the special police.  You testified

 7     earlier that -- you said that you -- that an operations group in charge

 8     of Banija and Kordun was formed in Belgrade and that you were one of the

 9     members of the command of that operative group.  That testimony is found

10     at page 12999, line 25.

11             In connection with that testimony, you made the following

12     statement, you said:

13             "This is an operative assignment.  It's not an assignment to a

14     duty by establishment."

15             That testimony is found at page 13000, line 19.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do we have a date for this assignment?

17             MR. HARMON:  The assignment to the operative group, I understood

18     from the evidence, was pursuant to an order of the SSNO of 27 September

19     1991.  The General can correct me if I'm not correct, but that's my

20     understanding.

21        Q.   But my question to you, General Novakovic, is:  Can you explain

22     to us the distinction you're trying to make when you say "this is an

23     operative assignment.  It's not an assignment to a duty by

24     establishment."  What does that mean?

25        A.   That it wasn't something that would require an establishment rank

Page 13354

 1     or established formation.  It was just a structure which was being

 2     created then, and people I appointed who were available, those who

 3     organised that thing thought I was supposed to be in Kordun and in this

 4     respect there was no establishment book, there were no establishment

 5     ranks.  And this is why I expressed myself in this way.

 6        Q.   So an assignment by establishment would mean -- would it mean an

 7     assignment to a specific location with a specific duty post number?  Is

 8     that how I'm to understand an assignment by establishment?

 9        A.   In essence, that would be so, Mr. Harmon.  But the reality was

10     thus, the order that you have - and I unfortunately cannot see it - was

11     dated on the 27th of September, if I remember it correctly.  A brigade of

12     special units of police for Kordun, where I was appointed commander, was

13     established on the 2nd of August, 1995 [as interpreted].  I know this to

14     be a reliable fact.  In the presence of the then-chief of the

15     administration for special units of police in Krajina, Mr. -- General

16     Borislav Djukic in the village of Pijesanica [phoen], close to Vrginmost.

17        Q.   Yeah, I -- Mr. Cannata has pointed out an error in the

18     transcript, General.  It says that you were appointed commander -- I'll

19     just see the still transcript because I can't follow on this thing.  The

20     year 1995 has been inserted into your answer.  It says:

21             " ... where I was appointed commander -- a brigade of special

22     police units for Kordun, where I was appointed commander, was established

23     on the 2nd of August, 1995."

24             1995 is not correct.  It should be a different year, shouldn't

25     it?

Page 13355

 1        A.   1992.  If I said "1995," I'm mistaken.  It is known that it was

 2     1992, but ...

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, let's deal with your unit.  You said that in your

 4     evidence at -- that you commanded the 80th Brigade of the special police

 5     that had about 2.000 members.  That testimony is found on 13055, line 12.

 6     Would you consider, General Novakovic, that a police force of 2.000 men

 7     was a large police force?

 8        A.   Mr. Harmon, I don't know what interpretation you receive.  I hear

 9     "special police" in my headset.  It was not called special police.  It

10     was called special units of police, which indicate their purpose.  And my

11     answer to your specific question would be as follows.  It was a large

12     formation if you talk about normal security circumstances and conditions.

13     But if you take into account the fact that more than 100 kilometres of

14     the line of conflict which stayed the same after UNPROFOR's arrival with

15     Croatian forces on the other side, that front line had to be observed,

16     manned 24/7, 365 days a year.  This would be the minimum to be achieved,

17     and that was the basic purpose of that unit so that that population there

18     would feel safe to a certain extent.

19        Q.   Were there other brigades of special units of police in the RSK

20     beside the 80th Brigade?

21        A.   I don't know why the interpreter mentions SVK.  SVK did not exist

22     at the time.

23        Q.   I said "RSK," sir.  Were there other brigades of special units of

24     the police in the RSK beside the 80th Brigade?

25        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.  I received SVK in the interpretation into

Page 13356

 1     Serbian.  This was the cause of my confusion.  There was a special

 2     brigade of police in the area of Dalmatia, then special brigade of police

 3     in Lika, special brigade of police in Kordun, special brigade of police

 4     in Western Slavonia, and a special brigade of police in the eastern part,

 5     apart from the 80th Brigade which existed in Kordun.

 6        Q.   What was the total number of special policemen in these units?

 7     How many were there?

 8        A.   I don't know that, Mr. Harmon.  General Djukic would be familiar

 9     with that piece of information.  I've never dealt with it.

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Lukic asked you a number of questions about the Vance

11     Plan, and your testimony was that the Vance Plan envisioned that the

12     UNPAs would be demilitarised and the armed forces would be disarmed.

13     That testimony is found at 13043, line 1.  Your testimony was that the

14     disarming of the armed formations was done, that's at 13043, line 15.

15     And you testified that UN under-Secretary-General Marrack Goulding said

16     that the Serb side had complied.  That's at 13043, lines 12 through 19.

17     You further testified, General Novakovic, that General Nambiar, who was

18     the UNPROFOR commander at the time, "never raised as a problem the

19     questions of whether our side was complying with the requirements of the

20     Vance Plan."  That's at 13044, line 16.  In fact, General Novakovic, the

21     UNPAs were never demilitarised, were they?

22        A.   I don't know what you use as a basis for your claim, Mr. Harmon.

23        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll see that in just a minute, General Novakovic.

24     Now, another fact, General Novakovic, is that these special police forces

25     were really not police forces.  They weren't policemen.  They were

Page 13357

 1     soldiers, weren't they?

 2        A.   Mr. Harmon, if I were to follow your logic then I would have

 3     drawn a conclusion that in the Serbian Army of Krajina there were no

 4     soldiers or were very few because they were peasants.  There were neither

 5     soldiers nor policemen nor nothing.

 6        Q.   So were the members of the 80th Special Police Brigade soldiers

 7     or were they policemen?  Let's start at that level.

 8        A.   They were members of special, or "posebne," units of police, not

 9     those units of police who were intended to maintain law and order, fight

10     crime, and control traffic.  Rather, of those units of police within the

11     structure of regular police within the Ministry of the Interior of the

12     Republic of Serbian Krajina who were in charge of the most important

13     security task, and that would be to prevent the infiltration and

14     incursion of armed forces from the areas where those Croatian forces were

15     in a war deployment without being controlled by anybody or without being

16     controlled by the UNPROFOR.

17        Q.   In fact, General Novakovic, UN officials, including

18     General Nambiar and Marrack Goulding, repeatedly complained that the

19     special police were paramilitary forces, isn't that right, and that their

20     presence was a violation of the Vance Plan?

21        A.   Mr. Harmon --

22        Q.   You can answer that yes or no, sir.  I don't want a lengthy

23     explanation.  I want to try to conclude this portion of my examination.

24     Is that true or not?  Did they repeatedly complain and protest that the

25     special police were paramilitary forces and that their presence was a

Page 13358

 1     violation of the Vance Plan?

 2        A.   In contacts with me - and this is something I can testify about

 3     as a commander of a local brigade, I cannot expand on this - Mr. Kirudja

 4     held such a position in contacts with me.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Could we have 65 ter 5991 on the monitor, please.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 8             MR. HARMON:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that a Prosecution document?

10             MR. HARMON:  It is, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is it being used for?

12             MR. HARMON:  Impeachment, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, any comment?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If the purpose of this document is

15     exclusively what Mr. Harmon said, then I do not object to it being shown.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Harmon.

17             Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. HARMON:  Now, in this document I'd like to have page 2 of the

19     English and page 2 of the B/C/S, please.

20        Q.   Page 1 you'll see in the caption, this is a further report of the

21     Secretary-General pursuant to the Security Council Resolutions 743 and

22     762.  It is dated the 28th of September, 1992.

23             MR. HARMON:  And I'd like to direct Your Honours' attention to

24     paragraph 4.

25        Q.   And as soon as it comes up in your language, General Novakovic, I

Page 13359

 1     will ask you to focus on paragraph 4, please.  Okay.  If -- this

 2     paragraph says:

 3             "The first two phases of demilitarisation proceeded well.  The

 4     Yugoslav People's Army completed its withdrawal from Croatia, with the

 5     single but significant exception of the Dubrovnik area and the

 6     Territorial Defence forces demobilised, placing their weapons in storage

 7     depots under a double-lock system.  However, the complete

 8     demilitarisation of United Nations protected areas has been delayed by a

 9     violation of the United Nations plan, which was referred to in my report

10     of 27 July.  This is the creation of new Serb militia forces designated

11     variously as 'Special Police,' 'Border Police,' or 'multi-purpose police

12     brigades,' made up of former members of JNA, Territorial Defence forces,

13     and irregular elements, which may total as many as 16.000 armed men

14     equipped with armoured personnel carriers" --

15        A.   I don't see that.

16        Q.   Okay.  We'll turn to the next page in the Serbian language,

17     please.  Okay.  Let me then partially carry on where I was:

18             " ...  which may total as many as 16.000 armed men, equipped with

19     armoured personnel carriers, mortars, and machine-guns.  The authorities

20     of the so-called Republic of Serbia Krajina (hereinafter referred to as

21     'Knin authorities') claim these are police units.  The Force Commander

22     considers that their level of armament and their almost total ignorance

23     of police work show that, in reality, they are paramilitary forces.

24     UNPROFOR has vigorously protested this violation of the" -- and if we

25     could turn to the next page in English, please -- "United Nations plan

Page 13360

 1     and has pressed repeatedly for the demilitarisation of those newly

 2     created units and for the regular police to be armed only with side-arms,

 3     in accordance with the plan."

 4             Now, sir, if we could focus your attention on paragraph 7.

 5             MR. HARMON:  And I'd like to focus the Court's attention on

 6     paragraph 7.

 7        Q.   Because this is where reference is made to General Nambiar.  If

 8     we could go to the second sentence it says:

 9             "General Nambiar has repeatedly stressed to the authorities in

10     Belgrade and Knin that it is UNPROFOR that exercises the protection

11     functions of the United Nations protected areas and that the presence of

12     these paramilitary units is contrary to the United Nations plan and has

13     caused the Croatian Army to retain some of its forces at the

14     confrontation line."

15             Now, -- so this document, General, contradicts your earlier

16     evidence that General Nambiar indicated that your side was complying with

17     the Vance Plan.

18             MR. HARMON:  If we could turn to paragraph 8 of this document,

19     we're going to see a reference to UN Under-Secretary Marrack Goulding.

20     And I think you have 8 in front of you.  And I'm only going to read a

21     couple portions of paragraph 8.  Paragraph indicates that:

22             "On the 4th of September, Under-Secretary ... Goulding reached an

23     agreement with the Knin authorities that demobilisation of these forces

24     would be undertaken in accordance with an agreed timetable."

25             And if we go to paragraph 9 we'll need to turn to the next page

Page 13361

 1     in the Serbian version of this document so General Novakovic can follow.

 2             And paragraph 9, sir, reads:

 3             "Despite the passage of the dead-line for the first stage of this

 4     process, however, demilitarisation has not begun."

 5             So there was an agreement with Under-Secretary-General Goulding

 6     that dealt with the demobilisation of these forces.  And now let's -- I

 7     want to direct your attention to another document, General, which

 8     deals --

 9        A.   Mr. --

10        Q.   Sir, let me just -- sir, just let me finish and I'm going to give

11     you a chance to answer.

12             MR. HARMON:  If we could turn to 65 ter 5989.  This is also a

13     document that is from the Prosecution's 65 ter list, and it is for

14     purposes of impeachment only.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated].

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for His Honour, please.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon.

18             What do you want to happen to this one, 5991?

19             MR. HARMON:  Could it be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so given an exhibit number.  May it please

21     entered.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2919.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P2919.

24             MR. HARMON:  Could we turn then to 5989.  I'm interested in

25     quickly looking at the first page which will identify what this document

Page 13362

 1     is and --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I've not expressed myself.  Let the

 4     record reflect that I do not object to showing the next document for

 5     impeachment purposes only.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir.

 7             MR. HARMON:  So if we could -- the first page, Your Honours,

 8     indicates that this is a further report of the Secretary-General pursuant

 9     to Security Council Resolution 743.  This is dated the 24th of November,

10     1992, and if we could turn to paragraph 12 which is on page 3 of the

11     English and on page 4 of the B/C/S.

12        Q.   We'll now focus on what UN Under-Secretary Marrack Goulding had

13     to say about Serb compliance in the UNPAs.  This also references

14     General Nambiar, who was the force commander.  So if I can direct your

15     attention, General, to paragraph 12, I can see that you only have --

16     there we have it.  Thank you.  It reads:

17             "Despite many interventions at the highest level in Belgrade

18     and/or with the various local authorities by the co-chairman of the

19     Steering Committee of the ICFY, Mr. Vance and Lord Owen, by

20     Under-Secretary-General Goulding, by the Force Commander, and by senior

21     UNPROFOR personnel, no progress has been achieved towards demobilisation

22     of these elements."

23             Now, "these elements," sir, are elements that are referred to in

24     the paragraph above, and I would like to direct your attention to what

25     the reference to is.  And I'll start on the -- in the English version six

Page 13363

 1     lines down.  It will start with the word:

 2             "These authorities have replaced the JNA and the TDF with Serb

 3     militia forces under various guises comprising former JNA and TDF

 4     soldiers as well as irregular elements.  They may total 16.000 personnel

 5     or more and are equipped with armoured personnel carriers, mortars,

 6     machine-guns, and other arms prohibited under the peacekeeping plan.

 7     They are sometimes claimed by the Knin authorities to be police, but

 8     UNPROFOR does not accept this; they are not trained or equipped as

 9     police, nor do they perform police functions.  Instead, they are" --

10             MR. HARMON:  Paragraph 11, Your Honour.  I'm sorry.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. HARMON:

13        Q.   Let me just -- I'll read the last sentence I intend to read.

14             "Instead, they are often deployed along the borders of the UNPAs

15     and at the edges of the 'pink zones,' serving as a paramilitary force in

16     blatant violation of the plan."

17             So, General, your testimony earlier was that Marrack Goulding

18     never complained about what the Serb side had done and that they had

19     complied, and General Nambiar never raised a question as to what your

20     side -- whether they were complying with the requirements of the Vance

21     Plan.  It appears that that's not correct, that's not true.  They were

22     very dissatisfied with compliance with the Serb side in particular.  They

23     were very distressed by the forces that you commanded and alleged that

24     they weren't police.  What do you say, General?  Now that you've seen

25     these documents where Marrack Goulding, Lord Owen, Cyrus Vance, Nambiar

Page 13364

 1     make rather serious - in fact significant - complaints, what do you say,

 2     General, and how do you reconcile your previous testimony with these

 3     documents?

 4        A.   First, let me ask you, Mr. Harmon, what was the basis for you

 5     claiming that I was chief or at the head of those forces?  I was not at

 6     the head of them.  I headed one brigade which was deployed in Kordun.  It

 7     seems to me, Mr. Harmon, that it's slightly unfair to heap so many things

 8     that I am supposed to respond to, particularly your claim that I was the

 9     chief man in the -- of those forces.  Let me take matters in turn.

10        Q.   Let's be perfectly clear.  You were the commander of the 80th

11     Special Police Unit.  I assert no more.  Okay.  Please proceed.

12        A.   In my testimony I exclusively spoke from my then-position,

13     commander of the 80th Brigade -- special brigade of police in Kordun.

14     And I said that I on occasion met with General Nambiar and that he never

15     uttered any objections to the level of our demilitarisation.  Whether he

16     uttered such objections somewhere else and sometimes else -- the same

17     goes for Mr. Goulding.  The only time I could hear of such things was in

18     the press.  And now, Mr. Harmon, that you claim that those forces,

19     special units of police, may have been regarded as paramilitary units --

20     well, I can claim to you that there were no APCs or mortars in my

21     brigade.  We had -- we had rifles and light machine-guns.  We did -- if

22     we could go to the preceding document, paragraph 2, so that we could

23     reach some truth -- if you could please show me paragraph 2 of the

24     document where you read paragraphs 11 and 12.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

Page 13365

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to interfere in the

 2     cross-examination by Mr. Harmon, but I believe that given that this

 3     witness has not seen this document before and since it's a voluminous

 4     document, it would be only fair that the witness be given that document

 5     and we continue tomorrow.  It would be only fair for the witness to

 6     familiarise himself with the document if Mr. Harmon seeks some specific

 7     answers.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not necessary, Mr. Lukic.

 9     Whichever way the Court decides, it's fine by me.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's past --

11             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, it's past the time we're to adjourn, so

12     I don't want to continue this at this moment.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then --

14             MR. HARMON:  We can return to the issue that General Novakovic

15     raises in the morning.  I would be happy to do so.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

17             Once again, sir, you may not discuss this case with anybody, and

18     least of all with the Defence team.  Please come back tomorrow at 9.00 in

19     the morning, same courtroom.

20             Court adjourned.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of

23                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.