Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13678

 1                           Wednesday, 8 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar, good morning to you too and could you please

 8     call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Good morning, Your

10     Honours.  Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is

11     case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank

12     you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have the appearances

14     for the day, starting with the Prosecution.

15             MR. THOMAS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

16     everybody in and around the courtroom.  Carmela Javier, April Carter, and

17     Barney Thomas for the Prosecution.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And for the Defence.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning to all.  Tina Drolec, Oonagh

20     O'Connor, Boris Zorko, Chad Mair, Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf

21     of Mr. Perisic.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             And good morning to you, Mr. Kadijevic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to remind you that you are still bound by the

Page 13679

 1     declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

 2     truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

 3             Madam Carter.

 4             MS. CARTER:  May it please the Court.

 5                           WITNESS:  RADOJICA KADIJEVIC [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                           Cross-examination by Ms. Carter:

 8        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   My name is April Carter, and I'm here on behalf of the

11     Prosecution and I have some questions to ask you about your testimony.

12     The first topic I would like to discover is in relation to the

13     special-purpose industry.  I want to understand the organisations and the

14     facilities involved.  Let's take for example, Pretis.  If Pretis were to

15     want to establish a new line of materiels, what procedure would it go

16     through in order to take it from the idea to the actual production?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly switch off unnecessary microphones.

18     Thank you.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First let's say that Pretis is a

20     special-purpose industry in the Republika Srpska and it has nothing

21     whatsoever to do with the special-purpose industry in the Republic of

22     Yugoslavia, our procedure therefore do not apply to Pretis.

23             MS. CARTER:

24        Q.   Can you tell me, what testing grounds were available in the

25     former Yugoslavia?

Page 13680

 1        A.   In the former Yugoslavia, there was a research and development

 2     institution with its own capacities and there were also three testing

 3     centres, the first one for land army, the second one for air force, and

 4     the navy testing centre for the navy.

 5        Q.   Can you identify by name what those testing facilities were?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly switch off unnecessary microphones,

 7     please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did tell you their names but they

 9     had their abbreviations as well.  Would you be interested in those?

10             MS. CARTER:

11        Q.   Sir, can you tell me what Nikinci is?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Madam Carter.  I thought you were still

13     dealing with the names of the companies.

14             MS. CARTER:  I am, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the witness asked you whether you want both

16     the names and the abbreviations.

17             MS. CARTER:  Okay.  I can certainly do it that way, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Sir, can you give us the names --

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, just for a moment.  With regard to

20     Judge Moloto's focus, because of some of the distinctions that exist and

21     some of the confusions that we've been having the past couple of days,

22     are you taking the position that the testing centres and companies are

23     the same?  Because Judge Moloto's question was dealing with the names of

24     companies and you indicated you were dealing with names of companies

25     whereas previously you've been talking about names of testing facilities.

Page 13681

 1             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  I'm actually referring to

 2     the facilities themselves.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good enough.  Let's get the names.

 4             MS. CARTER:

 5        Q.   Can you please tell me the the names of those facilities?

 6        A.   Yes, I can.  The land army had its testing facility and its name

 7     was abbreviated as TOC.  The air force had its own testing facility in

 8     Batajnica.  And when it comes to the navy, there was the navy testing

 9     facility.  Those three were institutions that were dealing with the

10     testing of equipment, both for domestically-produced equipment as well as

11     for the equipment that came from imports.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kadijevic, what is the name of the navy

13     testing facility?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The abbreviation was MOC, M-O-C.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] Now you've given us

16     abbreviations.  Give us the full names of all the facilities that you

17     have given us acronyms of.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The full names for those three

19     testing centre are as follows:  The Technical Testing Centre of the Land

20     Army, the Air Force Testing Centre, and the Navy Testing Centre.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Madam Carter.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, for purposes of the transcript and

23     clarification, since he has just given us full names, I would suggest

24     that we have initial caps, otherwise it doesn't look as if it's a name

25     but rather a description of a place in the transcript.

Page 13682

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Stenographer, if you can take note of that.

 2     Thank you.  Madam Carter.

 3             MS. CARTER:

 4        Q.   Sir, do you know of a facility by the name of Nikinci,

 5     N-i-k-i-n-c-i?

 6        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with that facility.  I was there a number of

 7     times.  That's a technical testing facility for the testing of the land

 8     army equipment.  It is some 80 kilometres away from Belgrade.

 9        Q.   Who possesses this testing centre?

10        A.   We could not talk about the ownership of the facility but rather

11     of the organisational structure of the entire army of Yugoslavia.  That

12     testing centre was part of the General Staff structure and it was

13     affiliated with the assistant Chief of the General Staff for the land

14     army.  The assistant chief was its superior body.

15        Q.   Now, you've indicated that this facility was used for testing of

16     land army equipment.  Was it used exclusively for the use of the testing

17     of VJ land army equipment?

18        A.   No.  It was also used for some equipment belonging to the air

19     force that could not be tested elsewhere.

20        Q.   Are you aware of it being used for the testing of any materiels

21     coming from other special-purpose facilities such as Pretis?

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, only because you have been previously

23     discussing the former Yugoslavia, if we could have a time-frame within

24     which this question is being asked, I think it would be of assistance to

25     the witness and to the Chamber.

Page 13683

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

 2             MS. CARTER:

 3        Q.   Sir, are you aware between 1993 and 1995 the Nikinci Technical

 4     Testing Centre being used to test equipment -- or excuse me, test

 5     materiels from Pretis?

 6        A.   As far as I know, that centre was also used by Pretis.  As well

 7     as all the entire special-purpose industry of the Federal Republic of

 8     Yugoslavia.  In the production phase, the special-purpose industry tests

 9     its equipment internally at testing centres before it is delivered to the

10     customer.  If the result of the testing is positive, then the customer

11     issues an order for the final testing of the equipment.

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now I'd like to move on to another topic.  You

13     had testified yesterday -- or actually, on Monday, that the VJ and the

14     General Staff had no competencies in relation to export of military

15     equipment; is that correct?

16        A.   Precisely so.

17        Q.   Can you tell me, during 1993 to 1995 was it common for members of

18     the MOD to meet with the leadership of special-purpose industries to

19     explore their capabilities or capacities?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  MOD of which country, ma'am?

21             MS. CARTER:

22        Q.   During 1993 to 1995 was it common for members of the FRY MOD to

23     meet with leadership of special-purpose industries to explore their

24     capabilities or capacities?

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Vague with regard to the issue of "common."

Page 13684

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

 2             MS. CARTER:  I can rephrase the question.

 3        Q.   During 1993 to 1995, did members of the FRY MOD meet with

 4     leadership of the special-purpose industries to explore their

 5     capabilities or capacities?

 6        A.   Yes.  One of the principal tasks of the research and development

 7     administration is to ensure capacities for the production of materiel and

 8     equipment.  It also invested funds for the adoption and development of

 9     new technologies, and that's why it had very close co-operation with all

10     the companies and very frequent contacts with them.  We had regular

11     frequent meetings with all the state bodies, and when I say that, I mean

12     other ministries as well as the managers of the special-purpose

13     industries.  At those meetings we analysed the situation, the contracts

14     that were signed, and we also considered plans for the following year.

15     That was a customary procedure.

16        Q.   How often would these meetings take place?

17        A.   It depended on the problem.  There were directors with whom we

18     would meet every fortnight.  Whenever they had a problem, they wanted to

19     consult with the Ministry of Defence.  While I was chief of the research

20     and development administration, I had to see them, I had to consider

21     their proposals, and we had to discuss solutions.  When we couldn't do

22     that at my level, we went to the Ministry of Defence or to the ministry

23     of the industry of either Serbia or Montenegro.

24             So I would meet with the respective ministers or the ministers

25     would come to our annual meetings in order to look at the possibilities

Page 13685

 1     of exercising all the necessary tasks to meet the needs of the state

 2     defence.

 3        Q.   When you were meeting with these directors, did you meet with the

 4     directors exclusively in Serbia and Montenegro, or did you meet with

 5     directors in the RS and the RSK as well?

 6        A.   I did not have meetings with directors from RS and RSK as I did

 7     with the special-purpose production industries in Serbia.  That was my

 8     duty, and I believe that I met with the director of Pretis on one or two

 9     occasions.  His name was Milorad Motika, and I believe that we met at his

10     request on a couple of occasions.

11        Q.   Would General Perisic have authority to explore special-purpose

12     production capabilities and capacities with these directors?

13        A.   General Perisic did not have the staff structure within the

14     General Staff that would be dealing either with the planning or research

15     and development, therefore he did not need to meet up with the directors

16     of special-purpose industries.  And when we are talking about the

17     meetings with directors, I hosted Mr. Perisic on two occasions when he

18     toured some of the capacities.  I was his escort.  He wanted to look at

19     the capabilities of those industries because the directors wanted us to

20     sign contracts with them and the position of the government was that they

21     were not capable of producing much; however, they showcased their

22     products in their own facilities and that visit lasted about three hours.

23        Q.   You indicated that this occurred on two occasions.  Can you tell

24     us when those occasions were?

25        A.   Again I have my usual problem with the years.  I know that on the

Page 13686

 1     first occasion we went to Crvena Zastava and Kragujevac and the Krusevac

 2     base, Miloja Zakic, and the second time we went to the partisan factory

 3     in Uzice and the Cacak base Sloboda, and that could have been in 1997 or

 4     1998 but I would sooner say that it was in 1997.

 5        Q.   Would you have expected General Perisic to be involved in such

 6     matters in 1994?

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Relevance as to Mr. Kadijevic's expectations.

 8             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, the witness has indicated that there

 9     was a clear bright line between the special-purpose factories falling

10     under the MOD and the VJ's abilities within them, so what I'm trying to

11     explore is what Mr. Perisic, during 1993 and 1995, had the capabilities

12     for and the expectations of.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure I understand that last part of

16     your answer, ma'am, whether Mr. Perisic during 1993 to 1995 had the

17     capabilities for and the expectations of.

18             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, indeed the witness has indicated that

19     the -- that Mr. Perisic had no competencies whatsoever within the

20     special-purpose industry, that barring the two times in which he served

21     as host to Mr. Perisic in 1997 and 1998, that Mr. Perisic appears to have

22     had no other contact.  So I'm trying to explore that with the witness.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

24             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, sir.

25        Q.   Sir, would you have had expectation --

Page 13687

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Wait a minute.  Go ahead, Madam Carter.

 2             MS. CARTER:

 3        Q.   In 1994 are you aware of Mr. Perisic touring any special-purpose

 4     facilities?

 5        A.   I was not aware of that.

 6        Q.   Given the structures that you've set out with relation to the

 7     special-purpose industries and the MOD as well as the VJ, would

 8     Mr. Perisic have had the competencies to go and tour and explore the

 9     special-purpose industry in 1994?

10        A.   The entire General Staff including the Chief of the General

11     Staff, Mr. Perisic, did not have any competencies with regard to the

12     research, development, and production of military equipment.  No

13     competencies whatsoever.  Those things are within the remit of the

14     Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

15        Q.   Are you aware of General Mladic's competencies in relation to the

16     special-purpose industries?

17        A.   I don't know what special-purpose industries you mean.  Are you

18     referring to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or Republika Srpska?

19     Where?

20        Q.   We'll take those separately.  Are you aware of General Mladic's

21     competencies in relation to those special-purpose industries found in

22     Republika Srpska?

23        A.   I assume that in Republika Srpska he had a certain degree of

24     influence due to his authority.  He did influence the special-purpose

25     industry in Republika Srpska but in formal terms it [Realtime transcript

Page 13688

 1     read in error "he"] was the minister of defence that was in charge of the

 2     special-purpose in Republika Srpska just as its counter-part was in

 3     charge of the same type of industry in the Federal Republic of

 4     Yugoslavia.

 5        Q.   And the second part of the question, are you aware of his

 6     competencies in relation to special-purpose industries found in the

 7     former Yugoslavia, the FRY?

 8        A.   General Mladic did not have absolutely any competencies with

 9     regard to the special-purpose industries in the FRY.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, on page 10, line 24, I believe there

11     after the words "in formal terms" the word should be "it" and not "he"

12     and I think we can probably agree upon that because it's recognised that

13     General Mladic was not the minister of defence.  I think that's probably

14     just a transcription error.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I would agree with that.  Madam Carter, I don't

16     know what you think.

17             MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour, we would agree with the Defence.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Thank you.  Yes, Madam

19     Carter.

20             MS. CARTER:

21        Q.   Sir, are you familiar with Krusik in relation to the

22     special-purpose industries?

23        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with that.

24        Q.   Can you please tell me what it is?

25        A.   That's a capacity or a holding company which consisted of several

Page 13689

 1     companies, and one of them, one of the most important one was the Krusik

 2     special-purpose industry.  That company produced the programme of mortars

 3     and anti-tank guided missiles of the Maljutka type.

 4        Q.   Are you familiar with a gentleman by the name of Director Savic?

 5        A.   Yes.  I knew him when he was still director and later on when he

 6     was the assistant federal minister for the economy.

 7        Q.   What was he director of?

 8        A.   He was a director of the entire Krusik company.  And since the

 9     special-purpose industry was the most important part and the ownership of

10     the rest of the companies when the transformation started, he was the

11     number one man in that company, in Krusik.

12        Q.   You indicated he later became an assistant federal minister for

13     the economy.  Can you tell me which entity he was an assistant federal

14     minister for?

15        A.   The federal government appointed him assistant federal minister

16     for the economy because he was an experienced businessman who had for a

17     number of years led a very successful enterprise.

18        Q.   I'll try to be more clear:  Which country was he an assistant

19     federal minister for?

20        A.   He could have been assistant federal minister only in the Federal

21     Republic of Yugoslavia.  There was no other federal state.

22        Q.   Where was Krusik located?

23        A.   Krusik is to the south-west of Belgrade, some 80 kilometres from

24     Belgrade.

25        Q.   As you are giving the directions in relation to Belgrade, can I


Page 13690

 1     assume that it's in the former -- excuse me, in Serbia?

 2        A.   Yes, in Serbia.  Certainly.

 3             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, at this time I would seek leave to use

 4     a new document, XN422.  This document is one of the extracts from the

 5     Mladic diaries.  We have seen those extracts previously and Mr. Thomas

 6     and Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith spoke yesterday and there was an indication that

 7     there was an agreement, if the Court were to allow us to use such a

 8     document, that it would be tendered as an MFI document pending the

 9     decision of Your Honours in relation to the exhibits subject to the --

10     the motion for reconsideration of the Trial Chamber's order filed on 12

11     August 2010.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That is in most of the terms correct, but there's

14     only one issue which presents itself, which is if Ms. Carter could

15     identify the purpose for which she seeks leave to use this particular

16     document.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

18             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, we'd seek to use this document both for

19     impeachment as well as for the truth of the contents.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think that there may need to be a bit of

22     argument with regard to this.  The argument will directly deal with some

23     of the witness's testimony.  It should be relatively brief, however, I

24     don't think it would be appropriate for him necessarily to be in the room

25     during the period of time that argument is being held, so ...

Page 13691

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, if I could intervene at this moment.

 2     This, I thought, had been resolved.  I think it can be resolved if I can

 3     have the opportunity to discuss this with my learned friends.  I seek a

 4     brief adjournment for that purpose.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would concur.  Rather than there being anything

 6     where there's any confusion, I think that if we could have but a moment

 7     here, we may be able -- if Mr. Thomas warrants that he believes there can

 8     be resolution, I'm usually relatively confident that that is the case.

 9     We're hitting probably 85, 90 per cent.  So if we could have a brief

10     adjournment.  I'm sure it wouldn't be any more than five minutes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Court adjourned.  We'll take a break and come back

12     when the parties call us.

13                           --- Break taken at 9.34 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 9.48 a.m.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas, I see you are on your feet,

16     Mr. Guy-Smith is on his feet.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I was just going to say I'd like to thank -- I

18     think both parties would like to thank the Chamber for the opportunity to

19     have had the discussion we've just had.  Although it didn't clarify

20     everything that we hoped to be able to clarify I think it clarified a

21     sufficient amount that it leaves us in a position where we can have a

22     crisp record on this issue because of the variety of legal matters that

23     surround the whole question of what we generically call fresh evidence

24     and its purpose.  And I now will cede the microphone to Mr. Thomas, who

25     is on his feet, or to Ms. Carter.

Page 13692

 1             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, at this time I would like to lay a full

 2     foundation for the request to use new evidence before the Chamber.  The

 3     document that we are seeking to use is XN422, which is an extract of the

 4     Mladic diaries.  As the Court is aware, we only received the Mladic

 5     diaries on 29 March of 2010.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, may I interrupt you a little bit?

 7     Do we usually discuss them in open session?

 8             MS. CARTER:  Clarification has been made and, yes, we initially

 9     were using them in closed session or, excuse me, in private session; we

10     are now able to speak about them in public session.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Fine.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That is my understanding at this time.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  I'm in your hands.

14             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  As the Court is aware, we

15     received these documents on 29 March of 2010.  In relation to the extract

16     that we are seeking to tender before the Court today, it was disclosed to

17     the Defence on 5 May 2010 in B/C/S, and it was subsequently translated

18     and disclosed on 11 May 2010 in English.  As this document has been

19     received by the Defence for over four months it was given in a language

20     that both the defendant as well as many of the staff of the Defence team

21     do understand on 5 May of 2010.  We do believe that we have overcome any

22     prejudice argument that the Defence may give.

23             In relation to the document itself, we do believe that it is

24     relevant, it goes directly to issues in relation to the special-purpose

25     industry, it goes to the issues of Mr. Perisic's competencies in relation

Page 13693

 1     to that, as well as his contacts with that.  So we would argue that it

 2     would be a relevant document to the Court's consideration, and because it

 3     is relevant we do believe it would in the interest of justice to be able

 4     to provide the Court with a full picture of the special-purpose industry,

 5     and so we would seek to use the new evidence here today.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And just to close up the circle, Madam Carter, you

 7     reiterate that you are -- the purpose for tendering it is both for

 8     impeachment and both for the truthfulness of the contents.

 9             MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you for your last question, Your Honour,

12     with regard to the purpose for the tendering of this document, which

13     Ms. Carter has indicated is both for impeachment and for the truthfulness

14     of the contents.  Obviously in discussions we've had previously with

15     regard to the issue of fresh evidence, I think there's an appreciation

16     and understanding that there are two distinct standards that exist, the

17     standard for impeachment being a lower standard than the standard that

18     one would apply and the Chamber would apply with regard to the

19     Prosecution essentially re-opening their case through cross-examination.

20             With regard to the issue of impeachment, I would suggest that

21     Ms. Carter's position concerning impeachment is ill-advised.  I take that

22     position because of the testimony that was given at page 10, line 2, in

23     which Ms. Carter asked the following question:

24             "In 1994 are you aware of Mr. Perisic touring any special-purpose

25     facilities?"

Page 13694

 1             The answer is:

 2             "I was not aware of that."

 3             If Mr. Kadijevic is now shown a document which establishes

 4     something different, that certainly wouldn't impeach him.  It might give

 5     him information which he did not have before but it would not be

 6     impeachment.  And I think it's important that we recognise that

 7     impeachment is not just putting up contradictory evidence but, rather,

 8     it's putting up evidence that in fact puts at issue the veracity of the

 9     assertion made by the witness.  If the witness was not aware of the visit

10     or Mr. Perisic's involvement, then it wouldn't be impeachment for that

11     purpose.

12             She has not indicated any other purpose of impeachment and in the

13     failure to articulate specific grounds for impeachment, I would suggest,

14     at least to the extent that I've taken the analysis thus far, that the

15     application fails on those grounds by virtue of the fact it doesn't meet

16     the definition.

17             With regard to the second issue, which is being offered to prove

18     the truth of the matter, of the contents, Ms. Carter has failed once

19     again to meet the standard.  The standard is one of exceptional

20     circumstances.  There's been no showing of exceptional circumstances with

21     regard to the use of this document or this part of the Mladic diary at

22     this time with this witness.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, is it not common knowledge between

24     the parties and the Chamber that the Mladic diaries were obtained by both

25     the Prosecution and the Defence after the close of the Prosecution case?

Page 13695

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And was it not so that in fact there was an

 3     agreement to postpone the case for about a month, or even twice for that

 4     matter, to allow both parties to go through the Mladic documents to find

 5     out which of them either party might use?

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That is also an accurate statement.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  Now, if in those Mladic diaries the

 8     Prosecution finds documents that were not accessible to them during their

 9     case in chief, wouldn't they then be allowed to use them precisely for

10     that reason?  Doesn't that meet the standard?

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No, I do not believe that --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why --

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do not believe that if, as you've framed the

14     question, Your Honour, that if in those Mladic diaries the Prosecution

15     find documents that were not accessible to them during their case in

16     chief, then they should be allowed to use them precisely for that reason

17     because that doesn't deal with the ultimate issue which is the factual

18     material that may exist within that document.  And if that factual

19     material exists in other places and if that factual material is material

20     which is part and parcel of the Prosecution's case, then I don't believe

21     that would necessarily meet the standards of exceptional circumstances.

22     Just because something arrives which is new, does not in and of itself

23     make it necessarily an exceptional circumstance for purposes of this

24     particular analysis.  For other analyses it may, but not for this

25     particular analysis.

Page 13696

 1             We are talking about, thus far, special-purpose industry, that's

 2     something that we've been talking about for two years.  We've been

 3     talking about testing facilities, that's something we've been talking

 4     about for two years.  We're talking about Mladic, he is certainly

 5     somebody that we've been talking about for two years.  We're dealing with

 6     issues concerning supply of materials; those are all matters that are --

 7     have been an active, vibrant, and continued part of the Prosecution's

 8     case, and I don't think that just by asserting the conclusion one can

 9     find solace in the explanation.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure I follow your argument but let

11     me say this to you:  That indeed I agree with your assertions that all

12     these topics have been spoken about for the last two years and the

13     Prosecution has been seeking to prove these -- a certain position with

14     respect to these topics for the last two years.  This witness is

15     testifying contrary to the position of the Prosecution.  The Prosecution

16     has used whatever other evidence they have had to state their position,

17     and with respect to this witness, they seek to use this diary to endorse

18     their position.  So, one, it is not a new thing, these are not new topics

19     to the Defence.  These have been live issues between the parties for the

20     last two years.  And now the Prosecution is meeting this witness who is

21     stating something contrary.  And I take your point on the question of

22     impeachment that the fact that he says he didn't know doesn't mean it

23     didn't happen, therefore he could not be impeached by this document.  But

24     I think in that event it is properly within the competency of the

25     Prosecution to say if you didn't know, sir, here is a document that says

Page 13697

 1     he did do so, if he did do so - I don't know what the document is going

 2     to say - and we can hear what he has got to say in response to that.  To

 3     that extent therefore, the document does not introduce fresh evidence in

 4     fact because this has been a live issue for the last two years, as you've

 5     rightly said.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understand, I think, what your analysis is, I

 7     think I understand your analysis, and I think therein lies a particular

 8     problem.  I'm going to walk away, just for a quick second, from the

 9     situation.

10             If the issue in a case is whether or not the light was red or

11     green, a witness gets up on the stand who was present at the location at

12     the period of time when the issue comes up and is asked what question

13     [sic] was the light and the witness says I believe the light was a green

14     light.  That's what I believe, that's what I was aware.  Then there's

15     information that is shown to the witness that the light was red.  Now,

16     that does not impeach that witness's -- that does not impeach that

17     witness's belief, and since it does not impeach that witness's belief,

18     the use of the evidence - which is the point - the use of the evidence to

19     prove the truth of the matter asserted therein becomes the issue.

20             When the propounding party says okay, here is a piece of evidence

21     that the shows that the light was a colour other than which you believed

22     it to be, that's the truth isn't it, the witness has no way of

23     intelligently responding to it, the witness has no way of commenting on

24     it outside of the confines of what their own knowledge is, and is being

25     offered by the propounding party to prove something.  Therein lies the

Page 13698

 1     rub.  That's the problem.

 2             If the evidence is being offered for some other purpose other

 3     than to prove the truth of the matter asserted, then I would not be

 4     standing on my feet with regard to that issue.  I think on the

 5     impeachment issue we are in agreement.

 6             With regard to the second issue, what is the value of this

 7     evidence?  How do you value this evidence?  Because ultimately what will

 8     occur is this:  At the conclusion of the case the Prosecution will argue

 9     that this particular -- this particular document they seek to presently

10     introduce, XN422, proves whatever they claim it proves.  That evidence

11     will be -- will have been given to you in the absence, in this situation,

12     of testimony from somebody who was in a position because they are unaware

13     of what is being discussed.  That would be the vehicle that it comes to

14     you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure where you are going with your

16     argument, Mr. Guy-Smith.  I want to say to you, Madam Carter said she's

17     tendering this document for two purposes; for purposes of impeachment and

18     for purposes of the truthfulness of the content.  You've put up your

19     argument on impeachment, which I thought made sense and -- unless I hear

20     the contrary from Madam Carter on that argument.  And if she fails on

21     that argument then it goes in for the truthfulness of it, but then from

22     the point of view of the Prosecution, the Prosecution wants to put its

23     position to this witness and assert its position.  From the point of view

24     of the truthfulness of the evidence, the Chamber will decide on it when

25     it writes the judgement whether to believe the document or to believe the

Page 13699

 1     witness.  That's where the perimeter ends.  And in my view, I think the

 2     very fact of the circumstances under which this document was obtained, be

 3     it fresh evidence or not -- and I've indicated a little earlier that the

 4     topics that are being discussed here are not fresh evidence, they have

 5     been live issues between the parties for a long time, and you have said

 6     so yourself on the record -- it would qualify to go in even for the

 7     truthfulness of the content, whatever the Chamber will believe at the

 8     end.  That's not the issue at this point.

 9             But having said that, Madam Carter, do you have anything to say

10     on this point before we rule?

11             MS. CARTER:  Briefly, Your Honour.  If the world was as

12     Mr. Guy-Smith has constructed and the only statement that was made by the

13     witness in relation to the special-purpose industry was that he was

14     unaware of this 1994 meeting, we would be in a much different position.

15     However, at page 8, line 13, I specifically asked:

16             "Would General Perisic have authority to explore special-purpose

17     production capabilities and capacities with directors?"

18             The witness responded:

19             "General Perisic did not have the staff structure within the

20     General Staff that would be dealing either with the planning or the

21     research and development, therefore he did not need to meet up with the

22     directors of special-purpose industries."

23             Thus the witness has made a blanket statement that I seek to

24     challenge.  So I will argue that we are in a position in which he has set

25     up a proposition that I seek to impeach.

Page 13700

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber rules that the objection -- I beg your

 2     pardon, where are we now?  The document may be used even for the purpose

 3     of the truthfulness of the content.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

 6             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would now like to call up

 7     XN422.  There are two B/C/S possibilities; we would seek to use the Latin

 8     transcript for the ease of the witness.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, it might be easier for Mr. Kadijevic

10     to view it in hard copy.  I have it in hard copy in both Latin and in

11     Cyrillic.  I'm happy to have this given to the usher so that Ms. Carter

12     can take a look at them.

13             MS. CARTER:  The Prosecution has no objection to their use.

14        Q.   Sir, what you have before you is an extract from a diary of

15     General Ratko Mladic.  Before I ask you questions I just want to give you

16     an opportunity to have a look over the document.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Interpreters do not have

18     copies of the document.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

20             MS. CARTER:  I do have a single copy that I can provide for the

21     interpreters and I'd also ask the Registrar if he could please scroll

22     through the pages of the document for the ease of the Court as well.

23             Your Honour, I do note the time.  I'm not certain if Your Honours

24     want to take the break at its normal time or continue to review the

25     document.

Page 13701

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, the Chamber does intend to take the break

 2     right now.  We'll break and come back at quarter to 11.00.  Court

 3     adjourned.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, in order to perhaps be able to speed

 5     things up, may I suggest that if the witness would like to have this

 6     particular document with him, he could review it over the break so he is

 7     in a position to take a look at it during that period of time.

 8             MS. CARTER:  I have no objection to such a course.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So be it.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.  Well, thank you very much.  I'm

13     sure we'll be proficient in B/C/S by the end of the session.  We don't

14     have any English versions.  We can look at it on the screen, Madam

15     Carter, don't worry.

16             MS. CARTER:

17        Q.   General, I take it that you've had the opportunity to read

18     through the document XN422 in its entirety; is that correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Can you please tell me, are you aware of the Ministry of Defence

21     authorising General Perisic ever to meet with the Krusik RO?

22        A.   Two things there:  First of all, the visit to Krusik and to a

23     special-purpose industry facility is something that any minister can do

24     without prior announcement, notice, or permission because these are not

25     closed facilities, these are companies that exist within the economy of

Page 13702

 1     Serbia.  And I highlighted yesterday that only some portions of those

 2     facilities produce for the Ministry of Defence and only those have a

 3     different regime.  Sava Pustinja, assistant federal minister and chief of

 4     the military economic factory, informed me about this meeting.

 5        Q.   It indicates that both General Perisic as well as General Mladic,

 6     the two greatest generals, and their colleagues attended this meeting.

 7     If you are aware of the meeting, do you know who the delegation was?

 8        A.   I know that there was this meeting and I told you that my

 9     superior, Lieutenant-General Savo Pustinja, who was assistant minister of

10     defence and chief of the military economic sector, attended this meeting

11     and that after this meeting he briefly informed me about the content of

12     the discussions they had at the meeting.  As for this --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kadijevic, I'm sure you would like to go home

14     as soon as possible, and for that reason, I would like us to -- I would

15     like to ask you to please listen carefully to the question and answer

16     succinctly to the question.  The question was:  Do you know who the

17     delegation was?  The correct answer should be yes, I know; no, I don't

18     know.  One of the two.  Don't give a long story.  Thank you.

19             MS. CARTER:

20        Q.   Sir, I'd asked you in the first session if you were aware of any

21     meetings that General Perisic would have had with the special-purpose

22     industry and you indicated at this time --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am sorry, Madam Carter.  You asked a question to

24     which we really haven't had an answer.  Do you know who the delegation

25     was?

Page 13703

 1             MS. CARTER:

 2        Q.   Outside of the minister that you've already named, are you aware

 3     of any of the additional delegates?

 4        A.   No, I wasn't, because I never received any report.

 5        Q.   Sir, you seem to know in great detail about this meeting as we

 6     sit here now.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I object to the characterisation of that.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

 9             MS. CARTER:  I'll rephrase.

10        Q.   Sir, you indicate you now are aware of this meeting in 1994,

11     however, when you spoke earlier, you indicated you were only aware of

12     General Perisic attending the special-purpose industries in 1997 and

13     1998.  What has jogged your memory to now recall 1994?

14        A.   Nothing.  Nothing jogged my memory.  I told you that in 1997 he

15     went in my organisation.  I organised such a meeting for Mr. Perisic.  I

16     was the organiser and I met him at the factory.  As for this meeting, I

17     didn't take part in it.

18        Q.   As it's now evident that you are aware of this 1994 meeting, are

19     you aware of any other meetings that General Perisic attended at the

20     special-purpose industry, whether you were his host or somebody else?

21        A.   I don't remember but I remember that I accompanied General

22     Pustinja when, together with General Mladic, we visited Crvena Zastava

23     plant.

24        Q.   You indicated that you attending Crvena Zastava plant with

25     General Mladic.  Was that one of the 1997 or 1998 meetings?

Page 13704

 1        A.   In 1994.

 2        Q.   So beyond the -- so now we have two meetings in 1994, a meeting

 3     in 1997, and a meeting in 1998.  Are there any others that you recall?

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry.  I am sorry.  Because of the nature of

 5     what we are discussing if we could have a more particular question.  So

 6     we now have two meetings in 1994.  We are putting a bunch of meetings

 7     together.  Are these meetings that he is aware of, meetings that he was

 8     informed of, meetings he was involved in?  Because they all are different

 9     and require potentially different analysis and different questions that

10     could come on redirect, and rather than bunching everything together --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, I don't understand what you are

12     saying.  What has been bunched together?  The Prosecution has just

13     mentioned the number of meetings, not sort of saying they are all

14     similar.  I don't know what your objection is here.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The problem is, because as a reader, if I start

16     at line 21 I have the witness attending a meeting in 1994.  If I'm the

17     reader and I continue with line 24, I now have him involved in four

18     meetings, which is not the state of the evidence.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, this witness has told us that he hosted

20     Mr. Perisic on a meeting that he organised to this company sometime in

21     whatever the year was.  He has also told us that Mr. Mladic went there

22     sometime in 1994.  He has told us of a meeting in 1997, I don't know

23     remember what in 1998.  I think I will overrule you.  If you have any

24     clarifications you want to make on these meetings you can do so on

25     re-examination.  This is no point of objection.  Continue Madam Carter.

Page 13705

 1             MS. CARTER:

 2        Q.   Sir, during your proofing session, were you shown this document?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Now, in relation to the document, beginning on page 1 we have

 5     General Perisic speaking where he says that:

 6             "We have come to see what we can do to help the Republika Srpska

 7     army and how."

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do apologise, what we have on page 1 are

 9     notations from a third party as to what the third party claims General

10     Perisic says as opposed to what we have General Perisic saying.  And I

11     take exception with the idea that now the document becomes

12     self-authenticating with regard to what my client says, because it is

13     not.  These are notes from a third party.  And if they were characterised

14     in that fashion, I have no objection.  But to take the position this is

15     what he says is grossly inaccurate and there's no way to test it unless

16     the Prosecution is intending on bringing General Mladic to these

17     proceedings for purposes of testifying against Mr. Perisic.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

19             MS. CARTER:  I'm happy to rephrase.

20        Q.   General, at page 1 a statement is attributed to General Perisic

21     in which he is to have said:

22             "We have come to see what we can do to help the Republika Srpska

23     army and how."

24             What authority did General Perisic have in order to help the

25     Republika Srpska army?

Page 13706

 1        A.   I will repeat --

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Once again, I have a problem here.  The problem

 3     is with regard to what is attributed here.  First of all, I think it's

 4     important for us to have an understanding of whether or not the witness

 5     knows whether or not General Perisic said this or didn't say this.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Overruled.

 7             MS. CARTER:

 8        Q.   Sir.  I'll repeat my question.  Under what authority did General

 9     Perisic have to help the Republika Srpska army?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I'll interpose one final objection with

11     regard to this line of questioning because I think we are going to have

12     the same problem, which is that if it assumes facts not in evidence, the

13     facts not in evidence being that he did in fact make this statement, so

14     in the absence of having some understanding as to whether or not the

15     information contained in the diary as it is constituted is accurate,

16     assumptions that are being made, whether you are talking about factual or

17     legal conclusions to be drawn, are not only confusing, they are

18     misleading and they do not establish in any way the kind of record that

19     allows for the Defence to counter such evidence.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can deal with that in re-examination.  Madam

21     Carter, continue.

22             MS. CARTER:

23        Q.   Sir --

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's my problem, Your Honour, unfortunately I

25     can't --

Page 13707

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I've ruled.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- because I don't have --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have ruled.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I appreciate, and I have a record to make.  I

 5     have a record to make now, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you have problems with my ruling, go and

 7     appeal.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I can't deal with it --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the recourse.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understand but I can't deal with it on

11     re-examination.  If I could deal with it on re-examination, I would.

12     Otherwise, I wouldn't be protesting as vigorously as I am right now.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, please take your seat.  Please take

14     your seat.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I trust you understand that there's a problem we

16     have.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please take your seat, sir.  If you have a

18     problem, you resolve the problem.  If you have an objection, you raise an

19     objection.  The Chamber doesn't rule on your problems.  Please take your

20     seat.  I have ruled.  The Chamber has ruled, Mr. Guy-Smith, please take

21     your seat.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I will, and I did raise an objection.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, please take your seat.  Thank you.

24             Madam Carter.

25             MS. CARTER:

Page 13708

 1        Q.   Sir, under what authority did General Perisic have to help the

 2     Republika Srpska army?

 3        A.   I've already stated when it comes to the production of armament

 4     and military equipment and procurement from those companies, General

 5     Perisic didn't have absolutely --

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Overlapping speakers] ... answer the question

 7     specifically was under what authority, and since the witness is not

 8     answering the question, that being the question of authority, I would --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, this is your witness and he answers

10     the way he answers.  You can't object to the answer.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We've been through this before, as a matter of

12     fact, Your Honour --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We have been through this before indeed.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And previously, as a matter of fact, on a number

15     of occasions when Mr. Harmon took exception to a witness's answer, you

16     upheld his objection.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, will you proceed, please.

18             Mr. Kadijevic, you were in the process of answering.  Can you

19     please answer.

20             MS. CARTER:

21        Q.   If you can continue your answer.  Under whose authority would

22     General Perisic have to help the Republika Srpska army?

23        A.   General Perisic worked based on the authorities that he had as a

24     Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia and the competencies

25     and tasks given to him by the Supreme Defence Council.  I was not in a

Page 13709

 1     position to know what instructions had the Supreme Defence Council given

 2     to the Chief of Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.  In the ministry where I

 3     worked, I was not privy to that kind of information.

 4        Q.   Sir, are you indicating that the Supreme Defence Council could

 5     have authorised General Perisic to take on such matters?

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  False speculation on his part.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not what is he indicating, Madam Carter.

 8     He is just telling you the authorities that Mr. Perisic had so far as he

 9     knows.

10             MS. CARTER:  I'll move on.

11        Q.   Sir, are you aware of under what authority General Perisic might

12     have been able to make a statement in relation to what can be delivered

13     with and without payment?  Under whose authority would he be able to do

14     that?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think this question has been asked and answered,

16     Madam Carter.  That is the authority under which he acted would be the

17     authority under which he would ask the question.

18             MS. CARTER:  I'll move to page 4, please.

19        Q.   Sir, on page 4 it indicates that in this meeting they "resolved

20     the matter for fuses for aerial bombs."  Are you aware -- after the

21     discussions with your minister after this meeting, are you aware of any

22     authority that General Perisic would have been given in order to engage

23     in these kinds of resolutions?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, I think the question of authority

25     has been exhausted.

Page 13710

 1             MS. CARTER:  I'll move to the final page of the document.  Excuse

 2     me, it must be the preceding page.  I apologise.

 3        Q.   Sir, some final comments are being attributed to General Perisic.

 4     One of them is that:

 5             "We will see how much we can set aside for you from our

 6     reserves."

 7             Do you know what the term "reserves" means in this context?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You say the preceding page.  Is that page 3?

 9             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour, it's the page that's on the screen,

10     page 7.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it says "reserves," I believe

12     that these are war reserves at the disposal of the Army of Yugoslavia in

13     its depots, the reserves of materiel in this case.

14             MS. CARTER:

15        Q.   In relation to the war reserves held by the VJ army -- excuse me,

16     VJ, was it within General Perisic's competence to be able to set aside

17     from his own reserves?

18        A.   No.  The federal government was the owner of those reserves.

19     Those reserves were property of the Republic of Yugoslavia.  Those

20     materiels and equipment were given to the Army of Yugoslavia for its use.

21        Q.   Sir, are you aware of a decision that was taken in 1994 by the

22     Supreme Defence Council where General Perisic was authorised to supply

23     the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres with materiel?

24        A.   I did see a document of that kind.

25        Q.   Do you know what the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres are?

Page 13711

 1        A.   The 30th and the 40th Personnel Centres were established with a

 2     view to maintain the list of those officers of the Army of Yugoslavia who

 3     were referred or assigned to serve in the RS and VRS.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In the RS and VRS.  I am not sure whether you have

 5     been correctly interpreted.  The interpretation says these officers were

 6     assigned to serve in the RS and VRS.  We understand RS to stand for

 7     Republika Srpska, VRS to stand for the Army of the Republika Srpska.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said the Army of Republika Srpska

 9     and the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             Madam Carter.

12             MS. CARTER:

13        Q.   You indicated that you saw a document to that effect.  Sir, are

14     you indicating that you are aware that General Perisic had the authority

15     given to him by the SDC to supply the 30th and 40th Personnel Centre

16     members who were serving in the RS and the RSK; is that correct?

17        A.   When the document was issued, I didn't see it.  I was not aware

18     of its contents.  I didn't know it existed.  The Defence counsel told me

19     about that session of the Supreme Defence Council and showed me this

20     particular document for the first time.

21        Q.   And speaking of seeing documents for the first time, can you tell

22     me, when is the first time that you saw the extract from the Mladic

23     diaries?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which extract, this one on the screen?

25             MS. CARTER:  No, no, the previous -- yes, Your Honour, the one on

Page 13712

 1     the screen.

 2        Q.   Can you tell me the first time that you saw that document?

 3        A.   I've not seen it before today.

 4             MS. CARTER:  If I can have one moment to consult with co-counsel.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MS. CARTER:

 7        Q.   Sir, you discussed yesterday and the day before the VTI, the

 8     Military Technical Institute; is that the right acronym?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Who is the employer of personnel serving in the VTI?

11        A.   The VTI employed people pursuant to the openings to which people

12     applied.  People who applied were citizens of the Federal Republic of

13     Yugoslavia, and if they met the criteria with regard to their previous

14     experience with research and development, they were selected.  Their

15     applications were approved and their employment was approved by the

16     Ministry of Defence.  The Ministry of Defence wanted to curb, to limit

17     the number of the VTI employees.

18             MS. CARTER:  Apologies, Your Honour, before I had moved on to

19     this new topic, I intended to tender Exhibit XN422 into evidence as an

20     MFI'd document -- not as MFI, Your Honour, simply as an admitted

21     document.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And as I think the Chamber is clear, we object.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  The document is admitted into

24     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

Page 13713

 1     Exhibit P2928.  Thank you.

 2             MS. CARTER:

 3        Q.   Sir, moving back to the topic we just began, you are indicating

 4     that the employer of the personnel serving in the VTI would be the

 5     Ministry of Defence; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you know of a workshop given the monicker VTI013?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the question again?

 9             MS. CARTER:  I would like to know if he is aware of a workshop

10     with the name VTI013.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that the VTI had a workshop

13     where they crafted models and prototypes of simpler pieces of equipment.

14     I'm not familiar with its number because each part of the institute had a

15     coded number which consisted of some letters and some figures, so I

16     wouldn't be able to confirm that the number that you just -- or the name

17     you just mentioned was the name or the designation of that particular

18     workshop.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I ask you again, Mr. Kadijevic; the answer would

20     have been, "I don't know."

21             MS. CARTER:

22        Q.   Is it fair to assess that if a facility has VTI in its title,

23     however, it is still an MOD facility?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   Could General Perisic exercise any power over personnel serving

Page 13714

 1     there?

 2        A.   General Perisic could not exercise power over any of the

 3     facilities of the VTI or the whole VTI as such.

 4        Q.   I'm actually referring to the personnel that are serving there.

 5     Would General Perisic be able to exercise any power over the personnel

 6     serving in the VTI?

 7        A.   No, he wasn't able to do that.

 8        Q.   Would he have the authority to deploy personnel serving there?

 9        A.   No, he did not have that authority.  Only for the director of the

10     institute.  The director had to be a general.  At the Supreme Defence

11     Council meeting he could exert his influence in order to either have that

12     person approved by a decree or disapproved for the particular position.

13             MS. CARTER:  I'd like to bring up P2721 on to the screen.

14             Your Honour, it's evident that this first page is going to be

15     extremely hard for the witness to read on the screen.  I do have hard

16     copies of the document.  I would indicate that on the final page -- on

17     the final page that I have copied, I have made a single highlighting.

18     Unfortunately, I don't have a secondary copy.  I'm happy to provide this

19     to the witness at the discretion of the Defence, or if they have a clean

20     copy, I'm happy to provide that as well.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Show the Defence the document, ma'am.

22             MS. CARTER:  If I can ask the court personnel to assist.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Court Usher, will you please wait for the document

24     so that you can take it away.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note --

Page 13715

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't have on the record there is reaction of

 2     the Defence.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, I nodded my agreement.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We would like to have it --

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understood.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Sorry, Madam Interpreter, you

 7     were saying something?  We spoke simultaneously and --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge.

 9             Interpreter's note:  Interpreters do not have copies of the

10     document that is being used.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  We understand that.  Can the

12     interpreters please be provided with a copy of the document.

13             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I'm asking the assistance of Ms. Javier

14     to get copies as soon as possible for the interpreters' booth.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Carter.

16             MS. CARTER:

17        Q.   Sir, the document that you have before you indicates that it's

18     from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, it's delivered to

19     the Chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, that would be General

20     Perisic -- no, excuse me, that would be the chief that was Mr. Perisic's

21     predecessor; is that correct?

22             Actually, sir, could you do me a favour?  The third line of the

23     document gives a date.  Can you please tell me, in the original, what is

24     the date of this document?

25        A.   16 May 1995.  That's the date.

Page 13716

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And on May 16th of 1995, who was --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  It's okay.  Thank you, I apologise.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Madam Carter.

 5             MS. CARTER:  And for the benefit of the court staff, yes, I am

 6     seeking the translation to 0647-6755, the first translation available in

 7     e-court.

 8        Q.   Sir, on 16 May 1995, who was the Chief of the General Staff of

 9     the Yugoslav Army?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say 1995, ma'am?

11             MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not 1993?  The date of this document.

13             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, there appears to be a typo in the

14     document.  The original indicates 1995.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We can't read it.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I can't read it either, and I would appreciate it

18     if Ms. Carter wouldn't testify.

19             MS. CARTER:  With all due respect to Mr. Guy-Smith, I had the

20     witness confirm and read the date and I'm using the testimony of the

21     witness himself.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The reason I said what I said is because as I'm

23     looking at the document in English, it says at the very beginning of the

24     document, it says 16/5/1993 and then at a later point in time it has the

25     date of 1995.  So there are both dates contained in the document.

Page 13717

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam -- we are looking at this date at its

 2     largest.  It's zoomed to a very huge figure.  It could be either.

 3             MS. CARTER:  Respectfully, Your Honour, the witness actually has

 4     a copy that has been copied where you can actually see the document much

 5     better.  I'm happy to ask, if the Court --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can confirm with the witness.  Just ask the

 7     witness.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We've now enlarged the document as much as we can

 9     in the original and it looks like a 3.  It looks like the date is

10     16.5.1993.  And obviously Ms. Carter appreciates the importance of this

11     because if this is a document in 1993 in the month of May, then this is a

12     document that concerns a matter which would not have been within

13     Mr. Perisic's purview because he was not the Chief of the General Staff

14     at that time.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, the Chamber has just indicated that

16     it has also looked at it and that this number could be either a 5 or a 3.

17     It's indeterminable from looking at it and anybody can come and look at

18     it here or we can look at it elsewhere.  This Chamber is not able to

19     determine, but if this witness is able to tell us, Madam Carter can ask

20     the question and it's up to the witness to tell us if he can see

21     anything, and if he can't, he can't.  That's it.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I appreciate that.  But I don't think that

23     this is a situation in which necessarily having the witness make a

24     determination of the date is appropriate.  If he has no familiarity -- as

25     of yet we have not established that he has any familiarity with the

Page 13718

 1     document, that he was the author of the document, that he has ever seen

 2     the document before, that he has had any contact at all with this

 3     document.  So for at this point in time for him to do the same thing that

 4     we are doing, I think would be inappropriate with regard to the date

 5     itself.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

 7             MS. CARTER:

 8        Q.   General, can you please again read the third line of the document

 9     that you have in your hand in regards to the date.

10        A.   16 May 1995.

11             MS. CARTER:  Can the document that the witness is reading be

12     provided for the review of the Chamber and then brought back to the

13     witness.  Actually, for transparency, if it can again be shown to

14     Mr. Guy-Smith before the witness.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  My eyes fail me.  I'm still not in a

16     position to tell what the number is.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's appreciated, Mr. Guy-Smith.  Join the club.

18             MS. CARTER:

19        Q.   Sir, this document indicates that the VRS is seeking authority --

20     specifically, General Mladic is seeking authority from the Chief of

21     General Staff to engage Zoran Stojkovic from the VTI.  Can you tell me,

22     are you aware of any circumstances where the VRS would make specific

23     request to the Chief of General Staff for VTI personnel beyond the one

24     that we are looking before us?

25        A.   We had similar cases.  There were requests to engage VTI experts,

Page 13719

 1     if that's what was needed by the VRS army.  After this request that was

 2     received by the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, there would be a

 3     letter to the Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

 4     as the superior body to the VTI.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Sir, just below to the bottom right of the seal

 6     found on top of this document, there's some handwriting.  Can you tell me

 7     what that handwriting says?

 8        A.   It says "To be approved," and I believe that I can see the

 9     initials of General Perisic.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.

11             MS. CARTER:  Move to the second page of the document.  And I

12     would seek translation 0647-6756.

13        Q.   Sir, the second document is an approval by the General Staff in

14     relation to the engagement of Zoran Stojkovic.  Is this approval

15     consistent with the note that you read on the first page approving this

16     deployment?

17        A.   Yes, this is the response that we saw on page 1, and this was

18     written by the office of the Chief of the General Staff to the Main Staff

19     of the Army of Republika Srpska.

20             MS. CARTER:  If we can now move to the third page.  And English

21     translation -- pardon.  Hold one moment.

22        Q.   Prior to moving on to the next document, sir, can you please tell

23     us, within the first line there's an indication that this document is

24     referring to a preceding document.  Can you tell us the date of that

25     preceding document?

Page 13720

 1        A.   Are you referring to the heading or the first sentence in the

 2     second document?

 3        Q.   In the second document, the paragraph begins, "In regards to your

 4     request ..." and gives a telegram confidential number.  Can you tell

 5     me --

 6        A.   16 May 1995 is the date.

 7        Q.   And can you tell me, does the confidential number given,

 8     10/33-1-121, also correspond with the first page?

 9        A.   Yes; 10/33-1-121.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.

11             MS. CARTER:  If we can now move to the third page, and

12     translation 0647-6757.

13        Q.   Sir, this indicates that Zoran Stojkovic, who was on duty at

14     Military Technical Institute, would be temporarily sent to the 30th

15     Personnel Centre.  If you are aware, can you tell me where this person

16     was being sent?

17        A.   In order for this task to be carried out, Stojkovic was first

18     being sent to the 30th Personnel Centre, which is where officers were

19     sent within the Army of Yugoslavia in order to send them to the VRS to

20     serve there.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.

22             MS. CARTER:  If we can now move to the fourth page, doc ID

23     0647-6758.

24        Q.   Sir, can you tell me what Zoran Stojkovic was being sent to the

25     VRS to do?

Page 13721

 1        A.   He was temporarily engaged on training snipers in the VRS.

 2             MS. CARTER:  And if we can move to the following page, doc ID

 3     0647-6759.

 4        Q.   Sir, is the document before you a report from Zoran Stojkovic on

 5     his time in the VRS?

 6        A.   Yes.  This is a report signed by him.

 7        Q.   The VJ engaged this gentleman to carry out the psychological --

 8     excuse me, sent him to the VRS in which he carried out psychological

 9     preparation of these snipers, didn't he?  Line 5.

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   He also trained them, and it "... proved to be more efficient in

12     the combat operations which resulted in the high combat morale, less

13     expenditure of ammunition, and a large number of hit soldiers on the

14     enemy side."  Is that correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And moreover him just being a sniper trainer, he was also going

17     to train the instructors of other sniper trainers, wasn't he?

18        A.   Yes, correct.

19        Q.   And this was all being done in the VRS in the summer of 1995, was

20     it not?

21        A.   Yes, correct.

22             MS. CARTER:  If we can move to the following page.  That would be

23     English translation 0647-6760.

24        Q.   Sir, when these individuals were serving in the 30th and 40th

25     Personnel Centres they were VJ officers still, weren't they, or VJ

Page 13722

 1     employees, weren't they?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would object to plurality here since we are

 3     looking at a particular document and we are dealing with a particular

 4     individual.  If she is referring to the individual that we've been

 5     speaking about, Stojkovic, I don't have any objection to the question as

 6     propounded.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

 8             MS. CARTER:  I intended to go broad than particular but I'm happy

 9     to stick with the specific Mr. Stojkovic for this moment.

10        Q.   Sir, when Mr. Stojkovic served in the Army of the Republika

11     Srpska, at that time he was still a VJ employee, was he not?

12        A.   He worked in the Military Technical Institute where he had a

13     permanent status.  He was sent to the 30th Personnel Centre, which was

14     basically subordinated to the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, on

15     a temporary basis.  He was temporarily sent there.

16        Q.   Sir, are you indicating that this gentleman was temporarily in

17     the chain of the VJ?

18        A.   Yes, temporarily.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.  You mentioned earlier that this was not a

20     singular instance.  How often did General Perisic engage members of the

21     VTI to serve in the VJ or the personnel centres?

22        A.   I can't claim with certainty how many, but I know that I solved

23     problems together with the director of the Military Technical Institute

24     when a request would be sent from the Ministry of Defence of Republika

25     Srpska to the Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

Page 13723

 1     We would not send them to the 30th Personnel Centre on those occasions.

 2        Q.   Sir, you were asked how often General Perisic sought VTI members

 3     for temporary deployment in the VJ.  Can you tell me how often that

 4     occurred?

 5        A.   I can't tell you that.  This example here is a surprise to me

 6     too.  I was not aware of these cases.  And you can see based on the

 7     correspondence that these documents did not go via the Ministry of

 8     Defence.

 9        Q.   Are you aware of any other cases where deployment -- temporary

10     deployment in the VJ took place where the documents didn't circulate

11     through the MOD?

12        A.   I am not aware because in principle we would use the experts from

13     the Military Technical Institute outside of that institution only on --

14     in exceptional cases.

15        Q.   Sir, are you aware of any other instance beyond this gentleman

16     where a VTI member was temporarily deployed to the VJ?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Isn't that badgering the witness?  He has just

18     answered the question, Madam Carter.  Are you aware of any other cases

19     where temporary deployment in the VJ took place where the documents

20     didn't circulate through the MOD, isn't that the same question?

21             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour, I'm trying to remove the MOD

22     circumvention.  I'm just asking generally.  We still haven't gotten an

23     answer to that question, the general question.

24        Q.   Are you aware of other instances where VTI members were deployed

25     temporarily into the VJ?

Page 13724

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We haven't had a translation of the answer,

 2     Interpreter.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the witness.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just repeat your answer, please, Mr. Witness.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said clearly that I'm not aware

 6     of other cases where members of the Military Technical Institute were

 7     sent to the 30th Personnel Centre.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not what you said.  You said "ne."  What

 9     you said was "ne."  That's what was not translated.  That's fine.  Carry

10     on, Madam Carter.

11             MS. CARTER:

12        Q.   You separated out the 30th Personnel Centre.  Can you tell me,

13     are you aware of any other deployments to the VJ as a whole?

14        A.   No, I am not aware of that and I cannot remember that there were

15     such cases.

16             MS. CARTER:  General, I thank you for your time and your candour

17     and I pass the witness.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could go to the second page of the document

20     that we were just looking at, which is P2721, please.  I apologise,

21     Mr. Registrar, could we go to the next page.  It's going to be 6757 will

22     be the proper translation.  Perfect.  If we could have the -- could we

23     have the portion which is the actually the body of -- of the document,

24     where it starts "based on your consent."  Yes, thank you so much.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

Page 13725

 1        Q.   Just to clarify one matter, I believe this is your third page, it

 2     will be page 3 for you in B/C/S.  Because there was some discussion for a

 3     moment about officers and discussion about members of the VTI, I'd just

 4     would like to get one understanding, which is, the gentleman who is in

 5     question here, Mr. Stojkovic, he is a civilian, right, and that's what

 6     the document says.  It says:  "Based on your consent," and it's

 7     confidential order number, and it says "civilian."  Is that what that

 8     document says?

 9        A.   Yes.  It says that he was a highly qualified technician,

10     repairman.  That was his qualification, Mr. Stojkovic's.

11        Q.   And with regard to his qualifications, what he was highly

12     qualified in --

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have 6759 up on the screen.

14        Q.   Which would be your page 5.

15        A.   Given the text further on, namely that he was a sniper trainer,

16     his qualification was that of a highly skilled technician.  In the

17     Military Technical Institute, they had equipment that was intended to

18     adjust aims and he worked in a laboratory where they adjusted the aim on

19     each individual piece of weaponry.  After this was done, a certificate

20     would be issued for each piece of weaponry, indicating how accurate it

21     was in aiming, et cetera.  And then this certificate would further on

22     accompany that piece of weaponry.

23        Q.   Now, I'm wondering if you can help us here.  It may be something

24     that you know, it may not be something that you know, but are snipers as

25     a class of soldier used in military operations?

Page 13726

 1        A.   As far as I am aware, it is used.  It exists routinely within

 2     units, primarily within infantry units.

 3        Q.   And you've mentioned and I believe that Ms. Carter actually read

 4     to you that the success of his training proved to be more efficient in

 5     combat operations.  That's what he says in his report; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you had mentioned that because of his expertise one of the

 8     things that he was doing was he was helping with an understanding of --

 9     technical understanding of how better to use the equipment, which

10     resulted in less expenditure of ammunition; right?  That's what the

11     report says?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   And with regard to legitimate military concerns, is a legitimate

14     military concern the expenditure of ammunition within a combat operation?

15        A.   The army attempts to have the minimum use of not only ammunition

16     but also other resources and they always try to carry out each task using

17     minimum resources.

18        Q.   And of course, and unfortunate as it may be because it's a

19     reality of war, the purpose of two sides fighting against each other and

20     young men in the field with guns shooting is to hit, wound, kill, or

21     disable the enemy; correct?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   And as I understand his report, the training that he engaged in

24     assisted in that occurring, which is a large number of hit soldiers on

25     the enemy side, a military function; right?

Page 13727

 1        A.   That's what it says in the report.

 2        Q.   You were asked -- thank you so much for those answers.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I'm done with this particular document.

 4        Q.   You were asked earlier about meetings, and I'm referring to page

 5     26, line 19, in which there was a Mladic visit, and you had accompanied

 6     General Pustinja with General Mladic when you visited Crvena Zastava

 7     plant.  Was General Perisic with you during that visit?

 8        A.   No, he wasn't.

 9        Q.   And with regard to formation issues -- and by "formation issues"

10     I mean documents that surrounded the formation of the 30th and the 40th

11     Personnel Centre, a matter that you were discussing with Ms. Carter --

12     did you see any documents at that time dealing with the formation of the

13     30th and the 40th Personnel Centre?

14        A.   No, I didn't.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I could have a moment, I need to just

16     double-check something.

17             Thank you, Mr. Kadijevic.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kadijevic, thank you so much.  We've come to

19     the end of your testimony.  Thank you very much for taking the time off

20     to come and testify at the Tribunal.  You are now excused, you may stand

21     down, and will you please travel well back home.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, are we coming back after the break?

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe that we are, Your Honour.

Page 13728

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  We'll take a break and come

 2     back at half past 12.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A slight change.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to you, sir.  Welcome.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

 9     afternoon to everybody in the courtroom and around it.  The Defence is

10     now ready to call its next witness, Mr. Rajko Petrovic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Welcome to you too, Mr. Harmon.

12             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please make the declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. President, I

16     solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

17     nothing but the truth.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Petrovic.  You may take a

19     seat.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Mr. Guy-Smith.

21     Mr. Lukic.  I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic.  I've been with Mr. Guy-Smith for this

22     week and his name is on my tongue.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Sudden changes in the course of one

24     day.  And this is the result.

25                           THE WITNESS:  Rajko Petrovic

Page 13729

 1                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 2        Q.   Sir, for the record, could you please tell us your name.

 3        A.   My name is Rajko Petrovic.

 4        Q.   Where were you born and when?

 5        A.   I was born the 10th of March, 1964, in the village of Agarovici

 6     in the municipality of Rogatica in the Republic of Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Please relax, sir.  I don't know whether you are feeling relaxed

 9     enough in this position.

10        A.   Yes, I appreciate your concern.

11        Q.   Second of all, I already told you during the proofing session

12     that the two of us speak the same language and we have to have a clear

13     record, therefore I would kindly ask you to wait a little after my

14     question before giving your answer, and I will do the same after your

15     answers.  Could you please tell us, what is your current profession?

16        A.   I'm an officer in the army of Serbia.

17        Q.   And what is the -- your current position in the army?

18        A.   Currently I work in the sector for materiel assets of the

19     Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia.

20        Q.   And what is your rank in the army of Serbia?

21        A.   In the army of Serbia I'm a lieutenant-colonel.

22        Q.   And what is your establishment post, or rather, what rank is

23     envisaged by your establishment post?

24        A.   The rank of colonel.

25        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, I will now swiftly go through your CV or some parts

Page 13730

 1     of your professional career which are of some relevance for these

 2     proceedings, in my opinion, and then we will focus on some parts of your

 3     professional biography as you provide your testimony.

 4             When did you graduate from the military academy and where was

 5     that?

 6        A.   I graduated from the military academy of the land army in 1986 in

 7     Belgrade on the 26th of July.  I became a 2nd lieutenant and my

 8     concentration was finances.

 9        Q.   Do you have any other degrees or anything that would tell us

10     something about your professional background?

11        A.   I also have a master's degree in military economic sciences and I

12     obtained my master's degree at the military academy of the army of

13     Serbia.

14        Q.   When was that?

15        A.   In 2007.

16        Q.   Have you continued your education?

17        A.   Yes, and I'm currently working on my doctoral thesis, also at the

18     military academy of the army of Serbia.

19        Q.   And now can you just briefly confirm the things that I will be

20     reading from your personnel file.  First of all, from February 1989, you

21     were in the 639th Logistics Base of the then JNA of the 5th Military

22     District in Zagreb; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I was the chief of finance of the 639th

24     Logistics Base.

25        Q.   When the JNA withdrew from the territory of Croatia, on the 27th

Page 13731

 1     of February, 1992, pursuant to an order of the 2nd Military District of

 2     the then JNA you became a desk officer in the organ for planning and

 3     finances in the then 10th Corps of the 2nd Military District in the Bihac

 4     garrison; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.  When the Croatian army --

 6        Q.   Just give me a brief answer.

 7        A.   Yes, it's correct.

 8        Q.   I'm just briefly taking you through your career and then we will

 9     come back to some details thereof.

10             Did there come a time when you became a member of a different

11     military after the JNA; and if that was the case, when did that happen?

12        A.   I became a member of the Army of Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   When?

14        A.   That was on the 1st of June, 1992.

15        Q.   And could you please tell us, what duties did you discharge from

16     June 1992, and where did you serve?

17        A.   I was assigned to a position in the administration for the

18     planning of development and financing of the Main Staff of the Army of

19     Republika Srpska, and I served in the -- in one of the departments and

20     that was the department for planning and analysis.  I was a desk officer

21     for planning and analysis.

22        Q.   How long did you remain a member of the VRS?

23        A.   I remained a member of the VRS up to April 1999, and then I

24     became a member of the Army of Yugoslavia and that was in early April

25     1999.

Page 13732

 1        Q.   And since then, since April 1999 you have first been a member of

 2     the Army of Yugoslavia, and now --

 3        A.   And now I'm an officer in the army of Serbia.

 4        Q.   During the period between 1992 and 1999 when you were an officer

 5     of the VRS, you told us where you served and did you discharge any other

 6     duties during that same period of time; and if you did, where was that?

 7        A.   During that period I remained in the position that I mentioned up

 8     to January 1997, I believe.  And then I remained in the same

 9     administration but I was appointed chief of department for control and

10     regulations.

11        Q.   Very well.  We will discuss that administration in some more

12     detail later on for everybody's benefit.  And now tell us, what was your

13     rank when you were a member of the VRS and did the rank ever change?

14        A.   When I joined the Main Staff of the VRS I was a captain.  From

15     January 1993 I was captain 1st class, and in that same month, January

16     1997, that is, I became a major.

17        Q.   Who issued documents to upgrade you in the VRS?

18        A.   The document on the interim promotion into captain 1st class was

19     passed in January 1993 by the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.  I

20     believe that the next document was also passed by him and that was

21     confirmed by the 30th Personnel Centre.

22        Q.   Very well.  And now let's go back to that same period in Bihac in

23     1992.  That's the period I'm interested in.  Just a moment, please.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said on page 55, line 12,

25     the word that we use here in the courtroom, to verify, and verification,

Page 13733

 1     instead of "confirm," so the 30th Personnel Centre verified the

 2     appointment and in that sense I would like to intervene and correct the

 3     record.

 4        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, I find it difficult to use the term

 5     "lieutenant-colonel" although we normally use ranks in this courtroom.

 6     Let me ask you this:  Bihac 1992, you said what was your position was and

 7     what your duties were at that time.  Did something happen in May 1992

 8     that had an impact on your stay in Bihac?

 9        A.   In May 1992 there were a few things, some of them more important

10     than others, some of them had an impact on my further path.  One of them

11     was a telegram by General Blagoje Hadzic, who was acting on behalf of the

12     federal secretary for defence, and in that telegram he informed all JNA

13     members that a re-organisation of the JNA had already been underway and

14     that JNA units had started withdrawing from the territories of the former

15     republics of the SRJ into the territory of the Federal Republic of

16     Yugoslavia as well as the withdrawal of JNA members who were born in the

17     territory of the SRJ as well as the need for those members and officers

18     of the JNA to stay with the JNA in Bosnia-Herzegovina if they were born

19     there.

20             And that telegram was read to us by Colonel Grujo Boric after the

21     previous commander of the 10th Corps of the JNA, General Nikovic, was

22     pensioned off.  After that, effectively Colonel Boric took over the

23     command of the remainder of the command of the 10th Corps -- of the

24     former 10th Corps.  I apologise, I would also like to add that he said to

25     us on that occasion that we should take decision according to our

Page 13734

 1     individual conscience and that he would not forbid anybody to leave, and

 2     that included even the officers who were born on the territory of Bosnia

 3     and Herzegovina.  He also spoke about the pending establishment of the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska, the officers --

 5        Q.   Just a moment, please, let me interrupt you here.  First of all,

 6     tell me this:  After that, or later on when the Army of Republika Srpska

 7     was established, do you know what happened to Pukovnik Boric, what was

 8     his lot?

 9        A.   The remainder of the command of the former 10th Corps where I

10     served as well, headed by Colonel Boric, were through, or rather, they

11     left, and ended up in the territory near Drvar.  The intention was to

12     establish the command of the 2nd Krajina Corps, and its commander was

13     Colonel Grujo Boric.

14        Q.   After this telegram was read out to you, what was your reaction,

15     Lieutenant-Colonel, and your decision?

16        A.   My decision was the same as that of the other members of the JNA,

17     namely that I should follow my conscience and naturally remain in Bosnia

18     as a member of the Army of Republika Srpska which was being established.

19     Its establishment was announced.

20             I had no hesitation, no doubts even though in that telegram read

21     out to us by Colonel Boric it said that the officers who remained in the

22     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina would be guaranteed certain status

23     and certain benefits.

24             There is nothing that could justify me leaving the area and

25     allowing somebody else to defend my hearth while going to Belgrade

Page 13735

 1     myself, being an officer and all.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said allowing somebody else to defend my?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My home.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Petrovic, are you okay?  Are you comfortable

 5     where you are?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Does it look like I'm not?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, it does.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, naturally it's not pleasant

 9     to sit here.  This is the first time I have ever testified before this

10     court, and I spent a restless night.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, if what I'm going to say is any comfort, let

12     me just say it.  Feel free.  Nobody is going to do harm to you, nobody --

13     nothing will happen to you as a result of you talking and testifying in

14     this court.  Just relax, please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you remember something about your colleagues from the unit who

19     hailed from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?  How did they react

20     to your decision to remain?  And I would like to know how many of them

21     remained and how many of them left, as far as you can remember.

22        A.   From what I know, the majority of members of the JNA from that

23     command remained.  There were perhaps individual cases of people leaving.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Another question, and we will now deal with the past,

25     but it's all within the context.  While you were in Zagreb and upon your

Page 13736

 1     arrival in Bihac, in that period of time, which was one year before the

 2     conflict erupted, the officers of other ethnicity - Muslims, Croats,

 3     Slovenians - did they also leave your unit during that period of time?

 4        A.   There certainly were cases of people leaving.  Almost all

 5     officers who were Croats or Slovenians left the unit.  I even remember a

 6     major with whom we stood guard, he said to me, Rajko, I can no longer

 7     stand this.  I will leave and you can shoot if you want.  We kissed each

 8     other and he left the barracks, the barracks perimeter.  I cannot

 9     remember his name just now.

10        Q.   What was your reaction to people leaving the unit?

11        A.   I understood their decision.  Their families were there and they

12     almost had no other choice, had no other option.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you told us that starting on the 1st of June,

14     1992, you took up your new position in the Main Staff.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I now orally

16     amend our 65 ter list by showing to the witness a document marked 03388D.

17     This is the document that Mr. Petrovic showed to me for the first time

18     when we met on Saturday here in The Hague.  I sent over to the OTP the

19     B/C/S version of that document on the same day, on Saturday, and on the

20     following day I sent them the draft translation, and if Ms. Carter agrees

21     to this, I would ask that this document be shown to the witness now.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

23             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, we have no objections to the oral

24     amendment.  The only concern that we have is if and when the document is

25     actually tendered, that it be marked for identification so that our staff

Page 13737

 1     can have an opportunity to look over the translation.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I certainly intended to tender it in

 4     for -- to be marked for identification because we are still awaiting

 5     translation.

 6        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, before we turn to the document, tell us, how did

 7     you become member of the Army of Republika Srpska?  Who informed you of

 8     that, where did you go, and what did you do?

 9        A.   I became a member of the Army of Republika Srpska by remaining

10     there together with the portion of the former 10th Corps of the JNA,

11     which had moved to Drvar and became the basis for establishing the

12     command of the 2nd Krajina Corps.  Shortly thereafter a telegram arrived

13     from the Main Staff of the VRS, which had already been established.  It

14     first had the signature of General Djukic, and the Drvar command did not

15     react to it.  The second one came with the signature of General Mladic

16     and it said that I was to report to my new duty at the Main Staff of the

17     VRS urgently.  I was to report to Han Pijesak and Crna Rijeka.

18             Colonel Boric approved that and, after several days of travel, I

19     reached Crna Rijeka.  Shortly afterwards, they gave me the order on

20     transfer and appointment, which we can see here, which was signed by the

21     minister of defence of Republika Srpska, Colonel Bogdan Subotic.

22        Q.   In this document we can see that the number of this order is

23     21-1/92.  It was issued on the 23rd of May, and can we see in this

24     document what was the day you were appointed to this position?

25        A.   As far as I can remember, my appointment commenced on the 1st of

Page 13738

 1     June.  A number of reports are written based on this order, hand-over of

 2     duty and so on.  There are certain steps that need to be taken.

 3        Q.   We see something else here, which we will comment on later,

 4     establishment -- rank and establishment grouping; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now, would you please tell me what it says here.  It

 7     says here duty -- what was your establishment position?

 8        A.   It was acting clerk in the organ for planning and financial

 9     activity which, per establishment, was supposed to be, and was, major or

10     lieutenant-colonel PG 14.  However, given the rank I held at the time, I

11     could not be appointed.  Rather, they appointed me acting clerk, with my

12     rank per establishment being captain 1st class, PG 13.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, a question concerning this organ where you

14     worked, to which did it belong, this organ, organ for planning?

15        A.   Organ for planning was a part of the Main Staff which later grew

16     into the administration for planning of development and financing.  It

17     was directly subordinate to the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.

18        Q.   Who headed that administration?

19        A.   This administration was headed by the then colonel and later on

20     general, Stevan Tomic [phoen], general of the VRS.

21        Q.   Tell me this, please, what did this administration comprise?

22     Which organisational units?

23        A.   The administration had within its composition three

24     organisational parts.  It was a restrictive formation with a reduced

25     number of personnel.  They had the department for plan and analysis -

Page 13739

 1     that was the first department - the second one was for bookkeeping and

 2     records, and the third one was called regulations and control, or control

 3     and regulations.

 4        Q.   How many people worked in these three departments?

 5        A.   According to the restrictive establishment, there should have

 6     been a dozen or so people.  However, there were only two men there; one

 7     was the chief of the administration, and I was the second one.  I was a

 8     captain.

 9        Q.   Did somebody else come later on, somebody else who was your

10     superior?  I'm interested in --

11        A.   It wasn't until mid-1993 that the department for plan and

12     analysis where I worked got its chief, Colonel Vojin Matovic, who was at

13     the same time deputy chief of the administration.  For a period of time,

14     it may have been six months in 1992 and in 1993, there was another

15     officer who worked in the department for bookkeeping and records.

16     However, he didn't stay there for a long time.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I did not manage to complete my previous question, so

18     let me do it now.  What you just described to us, is this how it was up

19     until the end of the war, up until the end of 1995?

20        A.   Yes.  There were just three men working there.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we MFI this document until we

23     receive the official translation, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

25     please be given an exhibit number and be marked for identification.

Page 13740

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 2     Exhibit D462, marked for identification.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, from the moment you joined the Army of Republika

 6     Srpska and when you started discharging all the different duties, what

 7     was your relationship with the Army of Yugoslavia?  I am primarily

 8     interested in the status benefits.

 9        A.   When it comes to status benefits, we received salaries, and

10     during that period of time there was no other benefit that I am aware of.

11     And I'm talking about the early days, the initial period.

12        Q.   Was your number of pensionable years changed, did your health

13     insurance change from the times when you were a JNA member?

14        A.   I didn't understand your question, I'm sorry.

15        Q.   Did you have any status entitlements with regard to your

16     retirement benefits and health insurance benefits?

17        A.   Yes, yes.  The same thing continued to be as it was in the JNA.

18        Q.   We will now deal with your salaries.  How was your salary paid

19     when you were a JNA member?

20        A.   We received salaries into our current accounts with the Postal

21     Bank of Belgrade.

22        Q.   Did there come a time when there were problems with the payment

23     of salaries in Belgrade; and if that was the case, when?

24        A.   Well, it was precisely during that period which was mid-1992.

25     That period was very dynamic.  There was interruption in the flow of

Page 13741

 1     payments and new currency was soon introduced.  It was called dinar of

 2     Republika Srpska or the Republika Srpska dinar.  I don't know what the

 3     tender was officially called.  To put it simply, the situation was

 4     chaotic.  It was very chaotic, actually.  It started being chaotic

 5     already in Bihac.  A lot of the ties were broken up or interrupted.

 6        Q.   In order to be able to pursue the matter, I would firstly like to

 7     establish a certain basis for my next questions.

 8             When you joined the Main Staff and when you started working in

 9     your new position, did you have anything to do with the salaries in

10     general and in particular the salaries of the troops of the Army of

11     Republika Srpska?

12        A.   The focus of my work in respect of the salaries was the payment

13     of the Army of Republika Srpska.  The funds were provided by the MOD of

14     Republika Srpska, or rather, its government, the government of Republika

15     Srpska.  That was -- that concerned most of the personnel of the Army of

16     Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   And what were your activities with regard to --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Petrovic, at page 63, starting at line 1 --

19     sorry, not page 63, line 1.  I thought earlier, and I may be wrong, I

20     thought earlier you said that you were paid -- your salary was paid by

21     the JNA.  Now I think you are saying it was paid by the government of

22     Republika Srpska.  Did I hear you correctly?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the salaries of most

24     of the VRS members were paid by the MOD of Republika Srpska.  My salary,

25     however, was paid in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, as it was

Page 13742

 1     already known.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for that.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As well as the salaries of some

 4     other officers of the former JNA.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   And now, just briefly, could you please explain, what were your

 8     duties and tasks in respect of the payment of salaries funded from the

 9     budget of Republika Srpska via the MOD Republika Srpska?  What were your

10     duties?

11        A.   What are we talking about?  Are you talking about my

12     responsibilities or my duties?

13        Q.   In my view it's almost the same.  I see that they are not the

14     same for you, so let me put it this way:  What did you do with respect to

15     the salaries?

16        A.   Yes, those were my obligations.  My task was to collect

17     information about the needs for funding, namely the salaries for corps

18     units and units attached to the staff.  Those needs depended on the

19     current numerical strength in the corps.  I prepared a document which was

20     a request for funding.  That document was signed by the commander of the

21     Main Staff.  And then that document, which was a request, would be

22     forwarded to the MOD of Republika Srpska.  Quite often, not to say

23     always, it was sent to the president of the government.

24             Shall I continue talking about the salaries?

25        Q.   Yes.  I'm interested in this:  If the funding was approved in

Page 13743

 1     respect of the salaries for those particular members of the Army of

 2     Republika Srpska who were funded from the RS budget, what would then be

 3     your activities?

 4        A.   My activities, once the funding was approved, were as follows:  I

 5     was supposed to go and collect the money at an appropriate payment

 6     transactions office, and on that same day I distributed the money for the

 7     the corps and the staff, I followed and monitored the payment of

 8     salaries, and I requested from them to issue adequate documents for the

 9     payment of the salaries.  And the document was the payroll signed by the

10     members of the Army of Republika Srpska who received the salaries.

11             From 1992, the funding came, the monies came into the sub-account

12     of the Main Staff as well as the sub-accounts of the corps, and later on

13     there was an account of the military computing [Realtime transcript read

14     in error "competing"] centre of Banja Luka, or better say from the

15     beginning of 2003 that happened.  I apologise, 1993.  I apologise for --

16        Q.   Very well, we will talk about that as well.  Give me answers

17     concrete questions.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you talk about the military computing centre

19     in Banja Luka or competing centre?  I thought you said computing.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Could you please repeat the title of the institution.

22        A.   It was the military bookkeeping or computing centre of the Army

23     of Republika Srpska in Banja Luka.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13744

 1        Q.   I'll come to the second category of personnel, those who received

 2     salaries from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and I asked you a

 3     minute ago and you said that you had an account with the Postal Bank, you

 4     had a Postal savings account in Belgrade, and you said that there came a

 5     time when there were no longer monetary transaction flows between VRS and

 6     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  How was your salary paid after that?

 7        A.   After that period during which the monetary flows were

 8     interrupted -- actually, that period was rather painful.  For a certain

 9     period of time or for awhile we used personal cheques that we had already

10     raised with the Postal Bank and when it comes to companies in the

11     territory of Republika Srpska, we exchanged those personal cheques for

12     the commodities that they purchased from the Federal Republic of

13     Yugoslavia, and then they used our cheques to effectuate payment for the

14     goods that they purchased from there.

15        Q.   Did you also receive cash independently of the Postal Bank; and

16     if that was the case, who was it who raised that cash?

17        A.   I believe that on one occasion I went to the bookkeeping centre

18     of the MOD of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and I signed a receipt

19     against which I was issued a negligible amount of money which was also

20     used for the payment of salaries.  The payments were effectuated in a

21     very restricted fashion.  Cheques were obtained from the Postal Banks and

22     those cheques were then taken to the accounting centre of the Ministry of

23     Defence, and the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence then sent

24     them to the Postal Bank and exchanged them for cash against a debt note,

25     debt certificate.

Page 13745

 1        Q.   When was that, during what period of time?  Could you tell us the

 2     year?  You don't have to be more precise than that.

 3        A.   Well, that was in 1992.  After that, the current accounts were

 4     blocked, sometime in July and August.  I'm talking about the initial

 5     period of 1992, about early 1992.  Actually, not early 1992 but June and

 6     July.  That was just after the Army of Republika Srpska was established.

 7        Q.   And later on was the payment transaction flow restored?  Could

 8     you then be paid through the Postal Bank?

 9        A.   The Postal -- the payment transactions between Republika Srpska

10     and the FRY were never reinstated, but as far as I can remember, sometime

11     in September, October an agreement was reached at a certain level with

12     the Postal Bank, and according to that agreement, payments could be made

13     into the Postal Bank by the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence

14     of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  And those payments would be made

15     based on the lists certified in the corps or the staff or some other

16     organisational unit of the Army of Republika Srpska.  And then such

17     monies could be withdrawn depending on the situation with the cash at the

18     Postal Bank.

19        Q.   How important was it for you to physically receive the salary as

20     soon as possible?

21        A.   To be honest, during 1993 and 1992, when the rate of inflation

22     was exorbitant, by the time we received the salaries from Belgrade, by

23     the time we received money from Belgrade, that money had completely lost

24     its value.  It had been completely devalued.  So much so that very often

25     you couldn't even buy ten packs of cigarettes.  I believe there was a

Page 13746

 1     brand called Vek that cost 2.5 marks, and we couldn't even buy that.

 2        Q.   During the proofing sessions you showed me a bank note that you

 3     have kept.  How many zeros were on it, do you remember?

 4        A.   Yes, I remember.  I have it still.  I'm looking at it.  I don't

 5     want to make a mistake.  This is a bank note of 50 billion dinars.  It

 6     was issued in late 1993.  The year is 1993.  And --

 7        Q.   Just a moment.  Let's be economical and use the opportunity to

 8     show everybody in the courtroom the bank note that you are holding in

 9     your hand.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could you please put it on the ELMO.

11        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, just put it on there.  When was this bank note

12     issued?

13        A.   In the later half of 1993, as far as I can remember.  If I may

14     continue, I don't think you could buy a sandwich for this note.  There

15     was another bank note which was the 500 billion one.  I don't have it

16     and, as far as I know, that note was the highest denomination ever

17     printed anywhere in the world.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Let me just state for the record

19     that this note that we can see on the ELMO contains figure 5 and ten

20     zeros.  I'm unable to describe it verbally.

21             Your Honours, I will perhaps scan this note and then on Friday I

22     will perhaps tender it, but for the time being I will make no requests.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Petrovic --

Page 13747

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now, Your Honours, use a

 2     document of the same form as the previous document.  By your leave, I

 3     would like to orally amend our 65 ter list with the document 03389D 65

 4     ter.  Once again this is a document that Mr. Petrovic gave to me during

 5     proofing and which I disclosed to the OTP as soon as I received it.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, ma'am.

 7             MS. CARTER:  Under the same guise as the last one, we just ask

 8     for it to be marked as MFI so we can look at the translation, please.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Carter.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   While we are waiting for the document to be put on the screen,

12     Mr. Petrovic, you see that this is the document by way of which you were

13     promoted, the promotion enactment.  We already heard some testimony

14     before this Court, but if you can tell us in one sentence, what elements

15     does a salary of an officer contain?

16        A.   The main element was determined by the rank and the other main

17     element was determined by the position to which one was appointed.  And

18     then other elements of the salary were calculated based on these two

19     basic elements.

20        Q.   Would you describe this document to us.

21        A.   This document is the order on my extraordinary promotion to the

22     rank of captain 1st class in the financial services.  This document was

23     issued and signed by the commander of the Main Staff of the Army of

24     Republika Srpska.  It says that as of the 7th January 1993, I was being

25     promoted to the rank of captain 1st class.

Page 13748

 1        Q.   Can we just look at something.  The number of this order is

 2     28/17-1 and the date is 7 January 1993; right?

 3        A.   Yes, the 7th of January.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we mark this document for

 5     identification as well, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 7     please be given an exhibit number and be marked for identification.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 9     Exhibit D463 marked for identification.  Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Now the next document I would like

11     us to look at, Your Honours, is once again a document we received from

12     the OTP in the financial file of this witness, and in our 65 ter list

13     this is 0401D.  Again we are still awaiting the official translation.  In

14     the meantime, we can use the draft translation if Ms. Carter agrees, then

15     we can discuss it with the witness and propose that it be MFI'd.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

17             MS. CARTER:  That seems the appropriate reaction.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC:  04012D.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

21             MS. CARTER:  Just for brief clarity of the record, actually this

22     is from the financial file, not the personnel file.  I just want to be

23     clear.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  And I think that I did say

25     the financial file.  If I made a mistake, I apologise.

Page 13749

 1        Q.   First of all, Mr. Petrovic, please tell us what is this that we

 2     see before us?

 3        A.   This is a record of monetary data which is kept in the accounting

 4     centre in relation to each person to whom a salary is paid.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now zoom in, Your Honours,

 7     the upper right corner where the blue stamp is.

 8        Q.   Could the witness tell us whose stamp this is?

 9        A.   This is the stamp of the accounting centre of the Ministry of

10     Defence Belgrade.  They calculated and paid out salaries.

11        Q.   Thank you.  It says here "VP 7572 Sarajevo."  Whose VP is this,

12     Mr. Petrovic?

13        A.   This military post is the military post of the Army of Republika

14     Srpska where I served, that is to say, the Main Staff.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now move to the left part of

17     the document, the lower portion, please.

18        Q.   In window number 4, could we look at that.  This box 4, what kind

19     of data is entered there, Mr. Petrovic?

20        A.   4, box 4, where is it?

21        Q.   Well, the Roman IV.  It's on the next page in the English.

22        A.   I understand.  The data concerning on salary grade is entered

23     here based on the appointment that an officer holds.  As I have already

24     said, this element of the salary makes up the basic salary to which other

25     percentages are added.  This is the position element, and we also have

Page 13750

 1     the rank element.

 2        Q.   Let me ask you this:  The last column within this box, it says

 3     here "acting clerk."

 4        A.   It says "acting clerk in the organ for planning of the Main Staff

 5     of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina," as Republika Srpska

 6     was called initially.

 7        Q.   This number, 21-1/92, what does it stand for, do you remember?

 8        A.   That's the order on appointment.  The number of the order.

 9        Q.   Is that the document that we saw just a minute ago, signed by

10     Mr. Subotic?

11        A.   Yes, that is the document.

12        Q.   And to the right we see the date, the 1st of June, 1992.  What

13     does this date stand for?

14        A.   That date is the date when I took over the duties of that clerk

15     in the organ for planning of the Main Staff.

16        Q.   13 PG, what does that signify?

17        A.   That is the number based on which salary is calculated.  Salary

18     grades carried a certain amount of points.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And then underneath it, it says "Clerk at the GLST"

20     again 13.  The date is the 7 of February 1994, which is the date of the

21     order, there is the number of the order, and the date of appointment is

22     the 10th of November, 1993.  Does that mean anything to you,

23     Mr. Petrovic?

24        A.   Yes.  After the promotion to the rank of captain 1st class -- it

25     says 7th of February, 1994, yes.  So after being promoted to the rank of

Page 13751

 1     captain 1st class, I met the conditions for being appointed to the

 2     position of clerk so that I was no longer acting clerk but became clerk.

 3     I was appointed.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, if you could look at your screen and

 5     confirm that we are all looking at the same page.  I'm looking for the

 6     7th of February, 1994.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, underneath the box.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Let me ask you this, Mr. Petrovic:  We will discuss this at

11     length tomorrow, but did you ever hear of the 30th Personnel Centre and

12     do you know when it was established?

13        A.   I did hear of the 30th Personnel Centre, and as far as I

14     remember, it was established in the later half of 1993, September or so.

15     I'm not sure.  I'm not sure.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So as not to forget, could this

17     document be MFI'd and I will look at this document again tomorrow --

18     rather, the day after tomorrow with this witness.  Otherwise, we can

19     conclude for the day.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

21     please be given an exhibit number and marked for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

23     Exhibit D464 marked for identification.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

25             Mr. Petrovic, we are not done with you.  We'll come back on

Page 13752

 1     Friday because tomorrow we are not working.  On Friday at 9.00 in the

 2     morning, but in the meantime while you were still testifying you are not

 3     allowed to talk to anybody about this case, and in particular not members

 4     of the Defence team.  Okay.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Then the court stands

 7     adjourned to Friday morning at 9.00 in Courtroom II.  Court adjourned.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.

 9                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day of

10                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.