Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13876

 1                           Monday, 20 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.

12             Could we have the appearances, please, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

15     everyone in and around the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata and

16     Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.

18             And for the Defence.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

20     morning to everyone present in the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic is represented

21     today by Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, Boris Zorko, our new intern Mr. Morrison,

22     and my name is Novak Lukic.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Defence is ready to call the next

25     witness, Mr. Sinisa Borovic.

Page 13877

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness make the declaration, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated, sir and

 7     good morning to you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

10                           WITNESS:  SINISA BOROVIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  For the record, could you

14     state your first and last name.

15        A.   My name is Sinisa Borovic.

16        Q.   When were you born?

17        A.   On the 6th of November, 1946.

18        Q.   Where?

19        A.   The municipality Ivanica, the Republic of Serbia.

20        Q.   Mr. Borovic, at the outset, I will tell you what I've already

21     mentioned in your proofing.  First of all, I would like to ask you

22     whether you have ever testified before this Tribunal or any other court?

23        A.   I have never testified before this Tribunal or any other court.

24        Q.   The two of us speak the same language and it needs to be

25     interpreted, hence, I'd like to ask you to pause following each of my

Page 13878

 1     questions before you provide an answer.  You can see the screen with the

 2     text before you and perhaps you can refer to that.  Once the cursor

 3     stops, you can start responding.  There's no need to focus on that

 4     heavily, it's simply enough for you to wait a moment.

 5             I'll start with your CV.  First of all, I don't know whether you

 6     prefer me to address you with "General" or "Professor," in any case, it

 7     seems more natural for me to address you as General during this

 8     testimony.

 9             Do you know when you graduated from the military academy?

10        A.   I graduated from the military technical academy in Zagreb in July

11     1968.  The first degree, that is.

12        Q.   I will go through your duties you had as you moved through your

13     career with the JNA and the VJ.  As for your military education, in

14     addition to the military academy, do you hold any other higher military

15     degrees?

16        A.   In addition to the military technical academy, I completed the

17     military staff academy of the then-JNA, as well as a foreign languages

18     school degree.  I also hold a PhD.

19        Q.   About the PhD?

20        A.   It's in military sciences.  It was undertaken for the needs of

21     the military.  It had to do with the systems of technical security at the

22     level of the Warsaw Pact.

23        Q.   In addition to that, do you have any civilian degrees, so to say?

24        A.   I hold a bachelor's degree in shipbuilding and machine technical

25     sciences.

Page 13879

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 2     repeat this last answer.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters would like to you repeat your

 4     last answer, sir.  They didn't hear you very well.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a PhD degree with the

 6     shipbuilding and machine technical science school in Zagreb.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Was it in the same specialty?

 9        A.   It was with the centre for multidisciplinary studies.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I will now rush through certain parts of your

11     military career.  Perhaps you can simply confirm that between 1975 and

12     1991, your duty was that of a lecturer at the technical educational

13     centre of land forces in Zagreb and you held different positions there?

14        A.   Yes.  Between the 2nd of December, 1974, and up until 1991, I

15     worked for the technical educational centre of land forces in Zagreb.  I

16     moved from assistant to professor to full professor.

17        Q.   And you mainly dealt with technical security?

18        A.   Yes, and I was the chair of the department in charge of technical

19     security and organic science.

20        Q.   You mentioned a moment ago that while you were in Zagreb, you

21     attended a PhD course in December 1989 in Poland.  Actually, it was a

22     post-doctoral degree.  For the needs of these proceedings can you tell us

23     what was your post-doctoral thesis?

24        A.   The post-doctoral thesis was a system of technical security of

25     armed forces.  That is to say, national armies and the armies of the

Page 13880

 1     Warsaw Pact.

 2        Q.   Following that, in March 19 -- excuse me, in August 1991, you

 3     moved to the General Staff of the then-JNA.  First you were head or chief

 4     of electronic equipment administration, and shortly after you became

 5     assistant chief of the operational staff affairs administration with the

 6     technical administration of General Staff; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  I arrived in Belgrade because I was elected professor at

 8     the higher military school in Belgrade for methodology and research in

 9     military sciences, but given that there was no work for me at that moment

10     in time due to the situation, I was assigned to the administration with

11     the General Staff.

12        Q.   In the subsequent period up to your retirement, did you remain in

13     the school as a lecturer, those duties running concurrently to those with

14     the General Staff?

15        A.   Between 1974 and today I have always taught, I have never skipped

16     a single semester and I have always seen myself primarily as a lecturer,

17     as a professor.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness I believe said that he

19     saw himself primarily as a professor.  It wasn't clear to me what the

20     English transcript said.

21        Q.   Between July 1992 and in the subsequent period, you were

22     appointed head of technical services of the sector for land forces with

23     the 1st Army headquarters in Belgrade; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Then you returned to the General Staff of what by that time

Page 13881

 1     became the Army of Yugoslavia in December of 1993 where you were

 2     appointed chief and deputy chief of the administration for technical

 3     equipment of the land forces with the same sector of the General Staff,

 4     that is to say, the logistics sector of the Army of Yugoslavia; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  I was appointed chief of the technical equipment

 7     administration and deputy chief in the logistical centre.

 8        Q.   In November, you were appointed chief of office of the Chief of

 9     the General Staff of the VJ; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, it is.

11        Q.   You remained in that position until December 1996 when you went

12     to work for the centre of high military educational institutions and,

13     shortly after, you became the dean or the head of that centre.  First

14     because there was a vacancy in the establishment and later on your

15     placement was confirmed by decree; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.  The previous chief became ill sometime before that and by

17     the time I arrived, he was no longer in his office.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, at page 6, line 6, when you say, "In

19     November, you were appointed chief of the office of the Chief of the

20     General Staff," are you referring to November 1993?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, November 1994.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You see, then you must mention the year each time

23     because the last year you had mentioned was 1993.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe I have but I was probably

25     hasty and spoke too quickly again.  I apologise in any case.  Then it

Page 13882

 1     must be Monday morning.

 2        Q.   After that, General, between March 1999, and you were appointed

 3     chief of the technical administration in charge of the logistical -- in

 4     the logistical sector [Realtime transcript read in error "centre"] of the

 5     VJ; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Finally, your last position with the VJ prior to retirement was

 8     in December 2000 when you were appointed assistant to the Chief of the

 9     General Staff of the VJ for the communications sector IT, electronic and

10     something else, I always forget the acronym, what does it stand for?

11        A.   It is the communications, IT, electronics, and anti-electronic

12     warfare sector.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

14             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, could I have a clarification for the

15     record, and for Mr. Lukic's benefit I'm referring to page 7, line 2, the

16     answer says "logistical centre."  I'm not sure if that was intended to be

17     sector as opposed to centre, and perhaps the witness can clarify that for

18     us.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

21        Q.   Could you please state what your position when you were appointed

22     assistant, what is that unit -- organisational unit of the General Staff

23     of the VJ called?

24        A.   The technical administration which also had the technical service

25     of the land forces, air force, technical administration, and navy

Page 13883

 1     technical administration, I was appointed assistant to the chief of the

 2     armed forces sector.

 3        Q.   What organisational unit is this in?

 4        A.   The logistics sector.

 5        Q.   You retired in September 2001 by presidential decree.  Who was

 6     the then-president of the FRY?

 7        A.   Mr. Kostunica, Dr. Vojislav Kostunica.

 8        Q.   Now we have to look at another area and that's your professorial

 9     work.  We've already heard that you did post-doctoral studies, but what

10     was your doctoral dissertation in mechanical engineering?

11        A.   My doctoral thesis was called "Expert system for the control of

12     the technical support system."

13        Q.   Mr. Borovic, are you perhaps a member of some academy of fine

14     arts and science?

15        A.   I'm a full-time member of the academy of engineering sciences of

16     Serbia and Montenegro and a full-time member of the academy of the

17     sciences of the Russian Federation.

18        Q.   Just one more question regarding your career.  What is your

19     current occupation?

20        A.   I'm currently a professor at the academy for diplomacy and

21     security.  I lecture in the subject of the theory of decision-making and

22     I'm the dean of the chair for the management of small and medium-sized

23     enterprises in Belgrade where I lecture in the subject of business

24     management and quantitative methods in decision-making, operation

25     research, that is.

Page 13884

 1        Q.   In your civilian life after retirement, did you occupy any

 2     positions?

 3        A.   After retirement I was assistant and deputy general director of

 4     the petroleum industry of Serbia for four years, and then, I was director

 5     general of the HIP petrochemicals in Pancevo.  After that, I was advisor

 6     to the general director of the petroleum industry of Serbia and advisor

 7     to the president of the board of management.

 8        Q.   When you say NIS, that would mean what?

 9        A.   The petroleum industry of Serbia.

10        Q.   Are you a member of a political party?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Thank you.  We'll now move --

13        A.   I occupied another position, in fact.  When Mr. Tadic was defence

14     minister, I was executive director in the defence ministry of the Army of

15     Yugoslavia.

16        Q.   When you say "Mr. Tadic," you mean the president of the Republic

17     of Serbia today?

18        A.   Yes, but he was then defence minister.

19        Q.   And that was after what we call the democratic changes when

20     Milosevic was replaced; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   I will run through your career chronologically and the facts that

23     you are going to testify to, and we are going to focus on the time when

24     you were part of the cabinet of the General Staff of the army.  But

25     before that, when you returned from Warsaw and came to the General Staff

Page 13885

 1     of the then-JNA, what was the prevailing sentiment among the officers

 2     cadre in the JNA concerning the break-up of Yugoslavia in 1991?

 3        A.   I was personally surprised because most generals thought that

 4     Yugoslavia or at least the bulk of Yugoslavia will survive and be

 5     preserved, a view that I did not share.  I was looking at things from a

 6     distance, from Warsaw, and I realised that the forces that wanted

 7     disintegration were stronger and that it wouldn't happen as the officers

 8     thought.  But the military brass did not see it that way.

 9        Q.   In your professorial and officer's career did you deal with

10     strategic research?

11        A.   From the time when I assistant professor onwards, I continuously

12     dealt with strategic research especially in the centre for the

13     methodology of research and the methodology of military skills including

14     the unit for research.  I continuously co-operated with that centre, and

15     when I became commander of the centre of military schools, I gave

16     assignments to that institute and worked together with them on

17     assessments and projects of interest to the army.

18        Q.   Did you use the services of that centre even at the time when you

19     occupied the position of Chef de Cabinet of the Chief of General Staff?

20        A.   Yes, because I respected their work and I knew personally the

21     researchers, and when we needed to check certain information and analyse

22     and provide quantitative support, I did co-operate with that institute.

23        Q.   I have now a couple of questions about your activities when you

24     were part of the technical administration in 1991 and later until 1994,

25     practically, although that includes a stint in the 1st Army.  What were

Page 13886

 1     your duties while you were in the technical administration in 1991 and

 2     early 1992 until the Army of Yugoslavia was established?

 3        A.   That had to do with the development of the service, building up

 4     the organisation, information, infrastructure of the service,

 5     modernisation of the service, establishing a new administration for a new

 6     army, changing the system of compartmentalising of materiel reserves of

 7     the army, repair shops and centres, et cetera.

 8        Q.   Who was your superior at that time when you are in the technical

 9     administration?

10        A.   First General Djukic and then General Ratko Milovanovic.

11        Q.   You mean Djordje Djukic?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   What was the situation in that technical administration in this

14     line of work, in view of the fact that the VJ had started to evacuate

15     from the territory first of Slovenia and then Croatia and move to the

16     territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?  What kind of challenge

17     was it from your point of view?

18        A.   Well, it was a challenge because the JNA was in the process of

19     disappearing.  All the documents had to be redrafted because the previous

20     documents had been drafted for a large country and a large army.  All

21     this had to be reworked.  Many units were coming to the territory of

22     Serbia that had not been there before and they had not been within our

23     jurisdiction, they were within the jurisdiction of the army.  So there

24     was a lot of work in re-organising and administering.

25        Q.   When you say that many units were coming, what was to be done

Page 13887

 1     with these units?

 2        A.   They were mainly arriving with their own moveable reserves and

 3     supplies that they had as part of their own kits and combat sets.  All

 4     that had to be admitted and identified, then stored and registered in our

 5     system.  Most often it didn't even arrive.  It was deposited at some

 6     field locations that had been prepared for the army in the territory of

 7     Serbia.

 8        Q.   What kind of a challenge, if any, did the officers cadre arriving

 9     newly to Serbia represent?

10        A.   Well, that was a problem because their status had been regulated

11     in the territories of the republics that had seceded, not in the Republic

12     of Serbia.  It had to be regulated now in Serbia.

13        Q.   We have to deal in greater depth with this topic.  The technical

14     and repair institute in the system of the former SFRY, to whom were they

15     subordinated and what they were a part of?

16        A.   The old Yugoslav People's Army had five repair institutes,

17     maintenance institutes.  Three of them were for machinery; Bregana, on

18     the border between Slovenia and Croatia; then Hadzici, in the region of

19     Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina; and Travnik in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The

20     technical maintenance institute of Cacak in Serbia and the technical

21     maintenance institute Kragujevac in Serbia, they were subordinated to the

22     technical administration of the Yugoslav People's Army.

23             In addition, the Yugoslav People's Army also had naval and air

24     force technical maintenance institutes.

25        Q.   We've already heard some testimony about that, so I won't go into

Page 13888

 1     detail.

 2             After the establishment of the Army of Yugoslavia, the VJ, did

 3     anything change in this chain of subordination of technical maintenance

 4     institutes?  And if so, how?

 5        A.   Well, only the maintenance institutes in Cacak and Kragujevac

 6     remained at the disposal of the Army of Yugoslavia.  They were originally

 7     established with large capacities to service a large JNA, and for the

 8     Army of Yugoslavia their peacetime capacity was too large.

 9        Q.   What exactly does that mean?

10        A.   That means that the plan of general maintenance of combat

11     equipment of the Army of Yugoslavia that was to be implemented by the

12     maintenance institute did not envisage the use of all capacities of the

13     maintenance institutes, and that's why they were transformed into

14     military profit-making institutions which allocated certain capacities to

15     act as profit-making enterprises on the market, either providing services

16     to other entities, such as the Jugopetrol company, or they were supposed

17     to go through conversion and move into civilian activities, which they

18     did.  For instance, the institute in Kragujevac which dealt with

19     ammunition had a good carpentry shop producing packaging for ammunition,

20     but they started to produce casings, honey-making packaging, watches,

21     et cetera.

22        Q.   All right.  Who approves the plan of maintenance for the Army of

23     Yugoslavia?

24        A.   The technical administration for the technical maintenance

25     institute in Cacak.  It was the section for machinery and for the

Page 13889

 1     munitions, explosives, and lethal assets section.

 2        Q.   Who approves that plan?

 3        A.   The chief of technical administration.  According to the general

 4     plan of assignments of the Army of Yugoslavia, every assignment has its

 5     number, et cetera.

 6        Q.   We won't go into that.  Once the plan is approved by the chief of

 7     technical administration, funds need to be provided.  And who decides

 8     ultimately how many -- how much funding is to be allocated for the

 9     technical maintenance institutes?

10        A.   It's the finance and development administration of the Army of

11     Yugoslavia that decides on the allocation of funding based on the

12     specific assignment in general maintenance plans.

13        Q.   And where do the funds come from?

14        A.   From the budget administration of the defence ministry.

15        Q.   Do you know that the technical administration in its plans and in

16     the approval of its plans ever cited requirements to finance anything

17     related to Republika Srpska or the Army of the RSK?

18        A.   No, never.

19        Q.   You mentioned military profit-making enterprises within those

20     institute, that means they can decide how they will use those free

21     capacities independently of the army plans?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Were they able to provide their capacities, personnel, and

24     services to the Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of the RSK if they

25     wanted?

Page 13890

 1        A.   Well, if it was financially profitable, yes, and if they were

 2     sure they could collect money for these services.

 3        Q.   Who would be the one to decide on concluding such a deal?

 4        A.   Either the institute itself or an administrative body which was

 5     called the association of maintenance institutes.  It was just an

 6     umbrella organisation linking these two institutes for purposes of

 7     administration to know what they were being used for.

 8        Q.   If they decided to do that, did they need the approval the

 9     administration or any other body of the Army of Yugoslavia?

10        A.   No, they did not need any approval.  They issued semi and annual

11     analyses on the use of their capacity and the balance or the state of

12     their finances, and any profits found its way to the republic and federal

13     budgets.

14        Q.   During this period which I refer to as the break-up of the

15     country between 1991 and 1993, did you go to any of the maintenance and

16     repair institutes in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and if so, for

17     what reason?

18        A.   I -- towards the technical and repair institute in Travnik with

19     the late General --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Ratko Milovanovic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me conclude the answer.  And

22     the maintenance and repair institute in Hadzici near Sarajevo.  The

23     management of both institutes were upset with the developments in the

24     country.  They wanted the chief of administration of the General Staff to

25     tell them what the assessment and estimates were about any further

Page 13891

 1     development of the institutes in those locations, and in general what our

 2     position was.

 3        Q.   What did you tell them?

 4        A.   It was my assessment even back then that it was to be our last

 5     visit to those institutes.  I openly stated that until further notice,

 6     until the final stage of the break-up, we were no longer going to finance

 7     any development projects of the institute, or institutes.  If they remain

 8     under the jurisdiction of the General Staff finally, and under our

 9     administration, then any financing and development projects were to be

10     picked up from where they were left off.  In case of the institutes

11     becoming parts of other states, they were to, of course, negotiate their

12     fate in accordance with the newly created situation.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] At line 16, page 1 [sic] I believe

14     that the witness said the break-up of the country, or excuse me, or maybe

15     he meant to say the final outcome of the break-up.  The final result,

16     that is.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I had in mind.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   What happened with the equipment of the three institutes in

20     Travnik, Hadzici, and Sarajevo, the ones you toured after the JNA

21     withdrew?

22        A.   All of the institute's equipment remained there, mainly heavy

23     machinery.  The perhaps the only things that could be moved were some

24     light tool sets and they were then taken to Serbia.  I only know that

25     from the institute in Travnik, some special gauging measurement units

Page 13892

 1     were brought on board a vehicle into Serbia and that is something the

 2     other two institutes did not have.  All other equipment remained in the

 3     same locations.  There was no possibility to extract it.

 4        Q.   Did you in the technical administration -- well, let me ask you

 5     this first, although we didn't touch upon it during proofing, but when

 6     did this visit take place in relation to the establishment of the FRY in

 7     April 1992?

 8        A.   It was just before the winter and the conditions were

 9     sufficiently poor to make our return from Sarajevo difficult.

10        Q.   Did the technical administration have information about fuel

11     levels and reserves of the JNA in the whole of the SFRY?

12        A.   Yes, we certainly did.

13        Q.   Can you tell us what happened with those fuel reserves once the

14     JNA left Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia?

15        A.   The fuel kept in stationary tanks which were of the capacity

16     between 20- and 70.000 tonnes remained in Bosnia and Herzegovina and

17     Croatia.  These are large reserves which simply could not be moved.  The

18     units only brought back their unit or troop reserves, what they could

19     carry in their tanks.

20        Q.   Who took possession of those stationary fuel reserves, if you

21     know?

22        A.   I do.  The paramilitary forces.  They first went for the storages

23     and warehouses because they were poorly defended.  Once the JNA withdrew,

24     storage crews were usually attacked or eventually allowed to pull out

25     while leaving their reserves behind.

Page 13893

 1        Q.   When you say "paramilitary forces," what do you have in mind?

 2        A.   The then-forces of the Croatian National Guard, and any Serb and

 3     Muslim forces that were outside the framework of the state.  We

 4     considered them all to be paramilitary formations.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I will move on to the next topic concerning this

 6     period of the transformation of the armed forces.  A moment ago you said

 7     you worked on organisation and formation of the newly established army in

 8     your technical administration.  I also wanted to ask you whether you

 9     participated in the general plan making process of organisation of the

10     VJ?

11        A.   I participated in general terms in all types of re-organisation,

12     starting with General Mirkovic, who was the chief at the outset, onwards.

13     I was one of the very few organisational science professors with the

14     General Staff, and as such, I took part in the work of all those teams.

15     That period continued until or during the tenure of Mr. Tadic, who is now

16     president and was at the time defence minister.

17        Q.   When you say that a new army model was being created, can you

18     explain that to us as laymen, what does that mean in terms of

19     organisation?

20        A.   In order to come up with an organisational structure of all

21     branches and services of the army, as well as to economise and reach

22     optimal levels, strategic levels, one needs to include a number of

23     criteria, such as financial criteria, demographic criteria, as well as to

24     plan the development of specific units and institutions of the VJ.  First

25     of all, we need to deal with their defence structures, then finances,

Page 13894

 1     materiel, personnel issues, locations, et cetera.  Only a person dealing

 2     with all those can appreciate the magnitude of such an organisational

 3     plan.

 4        Q.   Vis-a-vis the former JNA in terms of organising active-duty

 5     personnel, what were your problems when planning for the establishment of

 6     this new VJ?

 7        A.   From the outset, we were trying to come up with an army that

 8     would match the size of the state.  We faced very serious personnel

 9     issues rather than professional issues.  We created -- we were in the

10     process of creation of a smaller army which simply did not have enough

11     positions for all of the personnel who eventually ended up in the

12     territory of the Republic of Serbia.

13        Q.   It seems to me that I heard you say that you were creating a new

14     army and a new state; is that what you wanted to say?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I just wanted to clarify the transcript.  The problem you

17     mentioned -- well, can you explain to the Chamber what it means to have

18     an organisational establishment plan of an army?  What does it mean in

19     terms of a single officer, for example?

20        A.   First of all, his military specialty needs to be taken into

21     account with the VJ.  It also needs to take into account one's

22     professional background, establishment rank, pay category or salary

23     category, i.e., all status issues which had do with the work and life of

24     an army member.  It all needs to be included in our establishment plans.

25        Q.   Once such a structure is put in place of the VJ, is it then known

Page 13895

 1     for each and every member of the VJ where that person is supposed to be?

 2        A.   Yes, that person has a unique place in that establishment system.

 3     He is assigned his own special numbers and files.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private

 6     session now.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

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Page 13896











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Page 13898

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 13899

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Just another brief topic before we move to the office of the

 4     Chief of General Staff and your own activities there, and those are the

 5     international sanctions imposed by a resolution of the Security Council

 6     of the UN in the summer of 1992 against Yugoslavia.  From your

 7     professional points of view, how did these international sanctions impact

 8     on your activities?

 9        A.   They had a number of consequences.  We had to create a model of

10     preparing decisions for delivering equipment to the army against the

11     background of an international embargo and international blockade, and

12     that had to include all the know-how about high criteria-ranking and high

13     criteria decision-making.

14        Q.   When you say "we" who do you mean?

15        A.   Myself and Mrs. Dragana Becejski, a PhD, I was in the examiners

16     commission when she defended her thesis, and she worked in the

17     General Staff office providing IT support and she's now a regular

18     professor.

19        Q.   What did you actually do?

20        A.   We received a model of recommendations, we published it in our

21     press and then we modified it before publishing it abroad because this

22     was -- these were professional papers.  It was concentrated on a model of

23     decision-making.

24        Q.   When was that?

25        A.   We published it in the civilian magazine in 1994.  It was called

Page 13900

 1     "Kvalitet" [phoen], this magazine.

 2        Q.   Very briefly, what was your conclusion in researching this model?

 3     What was the point, the gist of it?

 4        A.   It would take awhile if I were to explain that.  With the embargo

 5     and the blockade and the sanctions, there always remained certain

 6     interests, as shown by other research, that prevented the embargo from

 7     being implemented 100 per cent, and the recommendation was, after

 8     analysing many alternatives, that suppliers used before the blockade

 9     should continue to be used finding other ways, other channels to bypass

10     the embargo.  We had to find new ways and the actual routes had to be

11     found by the suppliers.

12        Q.   From your knowledge, who was it that broke the embargo at the

13     time?

14        A.   The embargo was violated by all the countries in our region;

15     Croatia, the Muslim Federation.

16        Q.   All right.

17        A.   And the states that co-operated with them and with Serbia both.

18        Q.   Now I would like to move to the point when you became

19     Chef de Cabinet of the Chief of General Staff.  That was in

20     December 1994, as we've heard.  First of all, did you want to be

21     appointed to that post, and how did that happen?

22        A.   First of all, I did not wish that post, although, I knew

23     General Perisic, we had worked together in the Pula garrison as

24     second lieutenants and lieutenants.  Still, I did not want to work in the

25     office and to deal with protocol, receiving guests, dealing with

Page 13901

 1     residences and villas.  I wanted to be a professor and do my own

 2     professional work.

 3             However, General Ratko Milovanovic, whom I held in very high

 4     esteem both as a superior officer and a very clever, bright general,

 5     invited me one Thursday to talk to General Perisic.  The general

 6     apparently found it very difficult to work with the staff at the office

 7     that he found there and he needed help in organising or re-organising the

 8     work of that office.

 9             That Thursday I could not accept it and General Perisic gave me a

10     dead-line until the following Monday to think about it.  That Monday I

11     received another call from General Milovanovic and he asked me what my

12     decision was.  I said I decided not to accept.  He showed me a notebook

13     and told me I shouldn't complicate things because they had a session of

14     the collegium the day before and I was already appointed Chef de Cabinet

15     of the Chief of General Staff, that I should go and see the general,

16     there would be a little treat at the office, et cetera.  That's the way

17     it usually goes.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right.  I would like to look at

19     D200 now, MFI.  B/C/S page -- it's your tab 3, General.  It's an order on

20     the organisational units of the General Staff.  D -- the English page is

21     1D2T -- sorry, 1D2-0972.  And the B/C/S -- and the B/C/S is page 6.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

23             MR. HARMON:  We are having difficulty locating this document.

24     I'm not sure we received -- we didn't receive this document, notification

25     on this document.  So if we could just have a minute or if we could get a

Page 13902

 1     copy of this document, it would be helpful to us.  If there's a spare

 2     copy in English.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, unfortunately I did not prepare

 4     English copies.  I believe we announced this document.  Yes, we did.  I'm

 5     looking at the list of exhibits and we put it there.  You see it on the

 6     screen now but I'll certainly wait for Mr. Harmon.  Or perhaps we could

 7     take a break, Your Honours, now in order not to start with the document

 8     until Mr. Harmon has had time to look at it.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at quarter to.

10     Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we for a moment go back into

15     private session, please, because of the document we just had admitted.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm very sorry.  May the Chamber please move into

17     private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

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Page 13903

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 13904

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may correct the record, it was

 3     our mistake but we really did not make this document available to the

 4     Prosecution, so I will not show it.  I believe the witness will be able

 5     to answer my question even without the document.

 6        Q.   General Borovic, you don't have to look at the paper in front of

 7     you.  I want to ask you, what are the basic duties of the Chef de Cabinet

 8     of the Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   His basic duty is to cater to the Chief of the General Staff in

10     all matters where the Chef de Cabinet can facilitate his work, to receive

11     and send out mail, to receive visiting parties, support various

12     facilities, take care of the security arrangements for the Chief of the

13     General Staff in his travels and anywhere else, to prepare papers and

14     presentations that the Chief of the General Staff is to make before the

15     state bodies and various authorities, to follow up on tasks and duties

16     that emanate from meetings, to take care of various villas and other

17     facilities, to make security arrangements, to take care of the protocol,

18     issue assignments to staff units and units immediately subordinated to

19     the staff command, and to issue assignments to the guards brigade and the

20     special units corps, to organise ceremonies on occasion or visits of

21     delegations where such ceremonies are appropriate.

22        Q.   All right.

23        A.   That would be it.

24        Q.   Do you know whether the -- the office of the Chief of the

25     General Staff has any staff functions?

Page 13905

 1        A.   Yes, in terms of processing documents, analysing documents, and

 2     making summaries for the Chief of the General Staff, sorting out

 3     documents according to jurisdiction, documents that come into the office

 4     and are not addressed immediately to the Chief of the General Staff.

 5        Q.   Who made up this office?

 6        A.   The Chef de Cabinet, the secretary of the Chef de Cabinet, the

 7     ADC of the Chief of the General Staff, deputy chief of the office that is

 8     deputy Chef de Cabinet, assistant of the Chef de Cabinet in charge of

 9     affairs pertaining to the deputy Chief of General Staff, the office of

10     the general affairs, planning and general affairs, the protocol officer,

11     the finance officer, the legal officer, data entry operators, archivists,

12     drivers.  I seem to remember there was more staff that I can't recall

13     now.

14        Q.   What are the duties of the assistant for legal and financial

15     affairs?

16        A.   The assistant for finance provides all the funding for travel and

17     payments that fall within the purview of the Chef de Cabinet of the

18     Chief of the General Staff, including the payments of per diem to

19     deputies, payment of expenses during visits of various delegations,

20     funding for the development and appointment of the office.

21        Q.   What about the assistant for legal affairs?

22        A.   That was an advising -- an advisory duty in the office, and this

23     person received all the documents that needed to be assessed from the

24     legal point of view, including some documents that we received from the

25     legal administration.  They had to be reviewed for legality as did all

Page 13906

 1     the affairs of this office.

 2        Q.   My next question, what kind of situation did you find when you

 3     first took up your duties at the office of the Chief of General Staff?

 4        A.   Well, the situation I found was, in my opinion, rather primitive

 5     as far as IT and technical support is concerned, communications as well,

 6     including the inventory and the rolling stock.  All that was below

 7     expectations, at least expectations of the office of the Chief of

 8     General Staff.

 9        Q.   So what was the first thing you set about doing?

10        A.   Well, first of all, I had to persuade my superior, who was of an

11     ascetic disposition, that this had to change and that we had to equip the

12     office with state-of-the-art technology communications equipment.  We

13     changed the rolling stock, that is the cars and vehicles available to the

14     chief, later the entire furniture.  And then we appointed the conference

15     halls where sessions of the collegium of the Chief of General Staff took

16     place.

17        Q.   We'll come to that later.

18        A.   And I forgot that we also had an information analyst as a member

19     of the cabinet.

20        Q.   Well, I'm interested in -- let me put it this way:  What was the

21     situation that you found there in terms of communication?  What sort of

22     communication did the Chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav Army have at

23     his disposal?

24        A.   He had civilian and military protected communications and he also

25     had special communications at his disposal.

Page 13907

 1        Q.   Who did he have these special communication with?

 2        A.   With the president of the republic, the president of the federal

 3     state, that is to say, with both presidents of the republics.  I think he

 4     also had one with the Ministry of Internal Affairs.  I don't think that

 5     he had one with the federal foreign affairs ministry.  These were the

 6     special communication lines.  And he had direct protected lines with all

 7     his subordinates, with the commanders of armies and with the commanders

 8     of independent units.  That is to say, all the assistants within the

 9     General Staff.  These were direct military lines.  And of course, he had

10     at his disposal civilian communication lines as well.  He also had some

11     so-called hot lines.

12        Q.   We'll get to that.  Do you remember, since you mentioned special

13     communications lines, did he have a special communication line with the

14     Ministry of Defence, do you remember?

15        A.   I don't.  But it would be logical that he did.

16        Q.   Well, please just tell us what you do remember.  I'm not sure if

17     it's necessary to clarify anything.  When you say that he had special

18     communications with the president of the federal state, who was it at the

19     time?

20        A.   While I was the chief of the office, it was Mr. Zoran Lilic.

21        Q.   Who were the presidents of the republic that he had special

22     communication with?

23        A.   It was president Mr. Milo Djukanovic in Montenegro and it was

24     Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, the president of Serbia.

25        Q.   Was it somebody else before Djukanovic?

Page 13908

 1        A.   It could have been Bulatovic.  I'm not certain when was the time

 2     when they transferred from one duty to another, because this is what they

 3     used to do.  They would just exchange positions.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to be clear, on page 31, in

 5     line 21, the witness said -- it's in the record "civilian military

 6     protection communication."  He said "civilian and military protected

 7     communication lines."  So there is no doubt there was separate civilian

 8     communication and military protected lines, so maybe just a comma should

 9     be inserted.  Let us move on.

10        Q.   Did the Chief of General Staff have a communication with the

11     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and the Serbian Army of

12     Krajina?

13        A.   Yes, he did.  He had communication with the Chief of Staff of the

14     Army of Republika Srpska and he also -- I don't know if he had

15     communication with all parts of the Serbian Krajina, but he did have

16     communication with the top leadership while this area was still a

17     republic.

18        Q.   And these communication lines, were they established during

19     General Perisic's time or earlier, so before he assumed this position?

20        A.   They had existed earlier as well as the infrastructure, that was

21     all in place already and nothing was done about this system of

22     communications.

23        Q.   When you say "earlier," since when did these communications exist

24     between the General Staff and, let me put it specifically, Han Pijesak?

25        A.   Well, they existed as long as did the JNA because all places

Page 13909

 1     where the JNA existed were part of a communications network.

 2        Q.   And since you assumed your position as Chef de Cabinet, was

 3     anything improved in terms of these communications?

 4        A.   No.  That was not part of our competence.  We didn't change

 5     anything and we did not even see these communication lines.  They were

 6     not part of our integrated communications system.  It was not up to us to

 7     maintain the equipment or the stationary communications centre or

 8     communication nodes.  Resources were not planned for them so they were

 9     not repaired, adapted, modified, or maintained.  The Yugoslav Army had

10     its own communications system and its own maintenance of the

11     communications system.  I'm not sure how this worked in the Army of

12     Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   When you say that they were not part of the integral

14     communications system, what do you mean, which communications?

15        A.   Well, none of the communication lines which were part of the

16     communications system but were in the territory of the Federal Republic

17     of Yugoslavia.  Maybe some teams had to repair some of them but they were

18     not within our system of checking, control, maintenance, and so on.

19        Q.   Just a second.  As you are a man who was in this line of work,

20     what does it mean professionally, the maintenance of the communications

21     systems, what does that imply?

22        A.   It implies that resources are allocated from the budget according

23     to duties and according to specific codes, that plans are made to

24     maintain the system, to adapt it or modify it, repair the equipment,

25     plans for renewal are made because there is equipment which becomes

Page 13910

 1     obsolete, new equipment is introduced and so on.  So resources and

 2     capacities are allocated for this purpose.  And then this operates as

 3     part of the system.

 4        Q.   Are you aware that the Yugoslav Army in its plans maintained the

 5     communications systems of the Army of Republika Srpska?

 6        A.   While I was Chef de Cabinet and also the chief of the

 7     communications department, we did not do that.  We hardly had enough

 8     resources to maintain our own systems and equipment.

 9        Q.   What are the hot lines, can you tell us that?

10        A.   These are special telephone lines which the two collocutors have

11     and which are not part of any procedure.  So when you pick up the

12     receiver, then the phone rings at the place of the other person with whom

13     you have such a line established.  And it is not used for regular

14     communication.  This is why they are called "hot lines."  Only if

15     necessary, such lines are activated.

16        Q.   At the time when you were assigned to the position of

17     Chef de Cabinet of the Chief of General Staff, did you take part in

18     establishing any new hot lines and who with?

19        A.   In addition to reviving the hot line with the chief of the armed

20     forces of Hungary, such a communication line was also established with

21     the joint General Staff of the US Army.  I was only present when a test

22     call was placed when communication was established with, I think,

23     Admiral Owen, who was the deputy of the joint chiefs of staff.  But

24     further on, I was not present during the establishment of this.  Only

25     when this first call was placed.

Page 13911

 1        Q.   When was that, approximately?  How long after the point in time

 2     when you were appointed?

 3        A.   Well, maybe during the last third of the time that I spent as

 4     Chef de Cabinet.  I cannot remember exactly.

 5        Q.   And the information system, what did you introduce as something

 6     new to the work of the office?

 7        A.   I introduced everything that was necessary, the information

 8     system itself because there was no information system before, at the

 9     level of the staff and at the office, and it's like a current managerial

10     information system.  Something that's needed for the top leadership.

11     Therefore we monitored everything from the printing of the daily

12     newsletter about the situation in the units and the situation as regards

13     the reserves and also monitoring resources, finances, documents,

14     searches, everything that is necessary and that needs to operate.  It's a

15     managerial information system.

16        Q.   I would ask you a few questions about another segment of the

17     office's activities, and that's the mail.  What was the situation like --

18     but first let us explain to the Chamber and everyone in the courtroom, in

19     terms of quantity, how much mail was received daily for the Chief of

20     General Staff?  On average, what were the various documents you would

21     receive?

22        A.   On average, it would be between 50 and 300 documents of all

23     kinds, from official documents to complaints and appeals that were

24     private requests, and everything else that the Chief of General Staff

25     would receive.

Page 13912

 1        Q.   And what was the situation that you found in terms of the daily

 2     mail when you assumed your position?

 3        A.   Well, in the first month while I worked with the previous Chef de

 4     Cabinet and was getting into stride in terms of the duties of the Chef de

 5     Cabinet, I found the situation in which the chief carried all the mail

 6     addressed to the office to the desk of the Chief of General Staff.  I

 7     didn't change anything about that at the beginning for the first 40 days,

 8     but I believed that this was not rational, that it was exhausting and

 9     that it was just shifting responsibility from the lower levels upwards to

10     the Chief of General Staff.

11        Q.   Let us just stop here for a moment.  When you said that it was

12     not rational and this shifting of responsibility, what exactly do you

13     mean by that?

14        A.   Well, it's not responsible to shift everything on to the Chief of

15     General Staff.  So whether a van would be given to the Red Cross to

16     transfer children from one place to another, they would forward it to the

17     Chief of General Staff for his approval, and in my evaluation, that made

18     no sense that the military leadership should deal with that.  The

19     deputies and the assistants of independent administrations were the ones

20     that should be doing that, because the climate was that no one dared to

21     decide anything unless it was approved by the Chief of General Staff.

22        Q.   What was your position about that?

23        A.   Well, my position was that there should be a very strict

24     selection, and that whatever the assistants could do, that they should do

25     it because that is why they existed, and only if there was something that

Page 13913

 1     the Chief of General Staff had to do or he was the only person who should

 2     be informed about that, that that was the only mail that should be

 3     forwarded to him.  Or that the various chiefs and the assistant should

 4     process everything and then if the Chief of General Staff agrees, then

 5     that we should bring it to him and tell him, Well, this has passed all

 6     the procedures, so now you can sign it or you can refuse that.

 7        Q.   Was there any resistance to the idea that the earlier procedure

 8     should be changed?

 9        A.   Yes, everyone resisted, from the chief to everybody else.  The

10     chief believed for awhile that we had cut him off from the public

11     opinion.

12        Q.   So what did you do?  In what did your new approach reflect?

13        A.   Well, we reviewed all the mail and then we sent it to the chiefs

14     of independent administrations, to assistants, to the intelligence

15     administration or the military diplomatic representatives, so we would

16     only underline or put aside what was important for the Chief of

17     General Staff.  We only brought him the new information that he did not

18     already -- that he was not already familiar with, so we knew what was --

19     what the office itself was familiar or unfamiliar with, so if something

20     was repeated, then we wouldn't forward such information to him.  We would

21     just file that in the archives.

22        Q.   And who personally informed the Chief of General Staff about the

23     incoming mail which he did not need to deal with in more detail, and what

24     was the procedure about the mail?

25        A.   While I was Chef de Cabinet, then the Deputy Chef de Cabinet,

Page 13914

 1     that was Colonel Borovic, did that.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness is requested to please repeat the

 4     name.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Your last sentence is quite confusing in English translation.

 7     Can you just put it simply, who did that?

 8        A.   Chef de Cabinet, that was Colonel at the time, Borovic, it says

 9     here General but that was me, I meant myself.  But somehow I feel

10     uncomfortable in saying, well, I was the one who did it.

11        Q.   It's much easier for us if that's the way we record it in our

12     transcript, in the simplest terms possible.

13        A.   All right.

14        Q.   Now let me ask you this:  What kind of mail, what sort of

15     documents were submitted to the Chief of General Staff through you on a

16     daily basis?

17        A.   Well, operative reports from the operations centre.

18        Q.   Just let us take it slowly and maybe go through the documents.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So if we could please see on the

20     screen the document 9221 -- D221.  I notified Mr. Harmon that it's one of

21     the documents from the 65 ter Defence list, that's 657D.  I just want to

22     have a look at the form.  It's the daily operations report which was

23     produced by the duty team at the operations centre.

24        Q.   Let us just go through it a bit more slowly, please.  We already

25     had someone who testified about these documents here.  Who were the --

Page 13915

 1     all the persons who would receive such a document?

 2        A.   The chief of the operations administration, that is to say, the

 3     sector for operational affairs would receive it, then also the chief of

 4     the General Staff.  And I am not sure if anyone else received it or not.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that Mr. Harmon has some

 7     information, but let me just inform the OTP that we submitted this

 8     document as 65 ter 657D.  I won't dwell on this too long, I just wanted

 9     us to refer to the document briefly, and I apologise to the Prosecution

10     if we provided this document under a different number.

11        Q.   Such reports were sent when?

12        A.   In the morning when one gets in the office, the report had

13     already been prepared and received by that time.  We received such

14     reports from the operational centre.

15        Q.   Let us move on to the next part, then.  What other types of

16     reports were received daily by the Chief of the General Staff?

17        A.   There was always the bulletin containing information provided by

18     the 2nd information administration.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we next please have

20     65 ter 01086D.

21        Q.   Mr. Borovic, it is your tab 10 but you'll also have it on the

22     screen.  We won't dwell on this one too long either.  What is this and

23     who drafts documents such as this one?

24        A.   Such a document is drafted and forwarded to the Chief of

25     General Staff by Colonel Krga, who was the chief of intelligence

Page 13916

 1     administration.  This intelligence bulletin contained either daily

 2     information or was issued periodically as a result of analyses.  It is

 3     then sent to the federal ministry, the General Staff, and independent

 4     administrations as well as the office.

 5        Q.   We see among the addressees the school centre.  Did you also

 6     receive it later on?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.  It also says "destroy after reading."  We always

 8     kept such documents in our archives in order to provide continuity.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to the next page of the

10     document to see the contents.

11        Q.   These are, you said, periodical information; correct?

12        A.   Yes.  There was also daily information that was provided.

13        Q.   Let's go one step at a time.  We see that this one is from

14     March 1995.  Without going in the contents, I believe the document speaks

15     for itself.  Perhaps peruse this page and the Chamber can be acquainted

16     with a couple of things.  I would particularly be interested in what

17     follows.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For that purpose could we go to --

19     sorry, we should keep this in the English and go to the next page in the

20     B/C/S version to compare.

21        Q.   This chapter is called "Conclusions and Forecasts."  Item 1

22     speaks of any estimates of potential foreign invasion.  Who drafted or

23     who created these estimates and in what sense was it important to the

24     activities of the Army of Yugoslavia?

25        A.   Conclusions and forecasts derived from our assessments arrived at

Page 13917

 1     at collegium briefings held once a week.  On such occasions we usually

 2     drafted such conclusions and estimates, or maybe this particular one

 3     arrived from the intelligence administration.  I can't see the entire

 4     contents, but I do know that we always followed the situation, and at

 5     collegium meetings, each of the assistants had to present their own

 6     information that would be then collated.

 7        Q.   You can refer to it, it is in tab 10, and perhaps you can tell us

 8     who authored it.

 9        A.   This particular one arrived from the intelligence administration

10     of the General Staff.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please assign an exhibit

13     number to this document, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

15     please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

17     Exhibit D473.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   In addition to periodical reports of the intelligence

21     administration, was there any daily information that found its way to the

22     Chef de Cabinet and the General Staff?

23        A.   Daily we had the chief of the administration who would come to

24     the office with new information.  He always consulted with the office to

25     see whether the office was in possession of any other information that

Page 13918

 1     was not included in the information they had prepared for the chief.  It

 2     is always possible that we had some additional information.  We also

 3     received coded telegrams, which would be then decoded in our office.  We

 4     received those from our military attaches in our missions abroad.  The

 5     2nd administration also received such information, but we always

 6     double-checked that we had actually received the same telegrams.

 7        Q.   In addition to the intelligence daily information that was

 8     provided, did the office of the Chief of General Staff receive any

 9     information from the information department of the VJ, and what was

10     contained therein?

11        A.   The chief received information from the administration --

12     information administration which was also brought up to date in terms of

13     IT and procedure.  He received reviews of information from the media that

14     had to do with the VJ or were of VJ interest.  They would then print out

15     or issue what one may call a press clipping, although we didn't refer to

16     it as such at the time.

17        Q.   Who visited the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ daily, and I

18     don't want to lead you on this?

19        A.   When the chief was in his office, in addition to the Chef de

20     Cabinet, he was also daily visited by the chief of the intelligence

21     administration.  It was General Dimitrijevic at the time.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Security

23     administration.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did anyone else visit him daily?

Page 13919

 1        A.   Yes, Colonel Krga who was the chief of the 2nd administration.

 2        Q.   Did their meetings with General Perisic vary in terms of content?

 3        A.   General Dimitrijevic usually went straight to the chief and he

 4     seldom visited the office before doing that.  He would come to say hello

 5     because we were part of the same class at the military academy, but that

 6     was it.

 7        Q.   What about Krga?

 8        A.   He would always go first to the office and then he would join the

 9     chief and General Aco Dimitrijevic during their briefings.  After that,

10     the Chef de Cabinet would bring the mail in.

11        Q.   And that was you?

12        A.   Yes, at the time.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Later on we'll discuss the collegium meetings, but

14     first let me ask you this:  Outside the General Staff of the VJ, what

15     offices were you in permanent or standing communication with?

16        A.   The office of the Chief of General Staff was in standing contact

17     with the military advisor to the president of the republic.

18        Q.   Who was that at the time you were Chef de Cabinet?

19        A.   It was General Krivosija first, and then from our office,

20     Colonel Susic was assigned to that post and later promoted to the rank of

21     general.

22        Q.   What were the basic reasons for that contact?  What were the

23     topics discussed?

24        A.   The military office of the president of the FRY prepared the

25     agenda for any meetings of the National Security Council regarding all

Page 13920

 1     the issues mentioned vis-a-vis the army by the chef -- by the Chief of

 2     the General Staff.  Then they also conveyed all orders by the president

 3     to us, or any demands the authorities had of the VJ.  They also acted as

 4     a professional advisory body to the president because the president also

 5     had a similar civilian office.

 6        Q.   Just to make it clear, you keep using the term the "president of

 7     the republic"?

 8        A.   I meant the president of Yugoslavia.  The presidents of the

 9     republics within the Federation did not have their military offices, only

10     the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had such an office.

11        Q.   Just to distinguish between the two, perhaps you should use the

12     term "office of the president of Yugoslavia," or, for example,

13     President Lilic's office as opposed to the office of President Milosevic,

14     just to steer clear of any confusion.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a small correction for the

16     transcript, Your Honours.  I believe you understood that well, but in any

17     case, line 20, page 44, the witness meant the Supreme Defence Council,

18     for terminology sake.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's -- on that same line it says, "the military

20     of the president of the FRY prepared the agenda for any meetings ..."

21     Now, it can't be the military that prepares an agenda.  Who was it

22     supposed to be?

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I wanted to clarify that as well.  Who specifically sets the

25     agenda for the Supreme Defence Council meetings?  Whose authority was

Page 13921

 1     that?

 2        A.   Of the president of the FRY, Mr. Lilic.

 3        Q.   Who prepared that materiel for him?

 4        A.   When the Supreme Defence Council is sitting, it could also have

 5     on its agenda certain items which are not directly related to the

 6     ministry that were prepared by other ministries.  But in any case, the

 7     agenda is set by the chief of the military office of Mr. Lilic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we next please have 65 ter

 9     document 00802D while we are on this topic.  It is a decision on the

10     establishment and scope of activity of the military office of the FRY

11     president of January 1994.

12        Q.   We can see the title, and on the next page we'll see the decision

13     itself.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to that page in

15     both versions.  We see the date.  Could we briefly go to the last page to

16     see who signed the document in both versions.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President Lilic signed it.  This is

18     his signature.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Concerning this topic, could we see

20     page 3 in both versions.  Certain aspects of the scope of authority is

21     referred to on that page.  I'm trying to find the exact paragraph.  It is

22     also the third line in the English.

23        Q.   "Prepares the sessions of the Supreme Defence Council."  It is

24     item 3, can you see it?

25        A.   Yes, I can see it.  It also says:

Page 13922

 1             "Produces minutes of those sessions, submits excerpts from the

 2     minutes to the relevant organs and monitors the implementation of the

 3     conclusions."

 4        Q.   We've cleared that up, I believe.  What is the next one, you

 5     needn't read it out loud because this will be part of the evidence, but

 6     I'm interested in particular in the last part.  What does the last part

 7     of this bullet point mean in reality?

 8        A.   Which paragraph do you exactly mean?  Which part?

 9        Q.   It is the fourth paragraph.  It submits for signature and the

10     proposals of decrees.

11        A.   What words does it begin with?

12        Q.   It actually ends with "having first considered their legal

13     validity and prepare drafts of such statements itself, if necessary."

14        A.   The assistant for personnel, general and legal affairs,

15     General Matovic, would prepare orders and decrees about promotion of

16     officers that fell within the purview of the head of the military office

17     of President Lilic and that would be submitted to the head of the office,

18     and what fell within that purview were the ranks of generals.  The

19     military office would then take those decrees to the president, and the

20     office of the Chief of General Staff did not receive these decrees,

21     because these ranks were beyond their jurisdiction.

22        Q.   Another matter.  It says the military office of the FRY

23     president, and then its duties are described, having first considered

24     their legal validity.  And they prepare drafts of such documents

25     themselves if necessary.  My now question is, do you know if the military

Page 13923

 1     office of the FRY president had any legal officers qualified to review

 2     documents for legality?

 3        A.   I don't know about that, but I know that in the civilian part of

 4     his office, the FRY president had people who were able to do that.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this now for

 6     admission.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 8     please be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

10     Exhibit D474.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   In addition to the military office of the FRY president, which

14     other office did you communicate with and how often?

15        A.   We communicated with the office of the president of Serbia,

16     President Milosevic, we had frequent contacts with them and with

17     Mr. Milosevic [as interpreted].  Less frequently but we were able to

18     establish contact with the office of the president of Montenegro.  And in

19     its turn, the military office contacted as required the federal Ministry

20     of Foreign Affairs.  They had no official communication with other

21     offices.

22        Q.   Page 48, line 11, could you say again the last name of the

23     Chef de Cabinet of the president of Serbia?

24        A.   Goran Milinovic.  Milinovic.  I'm sure about the last name.

25        Q.   That's correct.  Did you have communication, and how often, with

Page 13924

 1     the Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 2        A.   I'd forgotten about that.  We had daily communication with them.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Lukic, who is Goran Milinovic?  I'm

 4     sorry.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Goran Milinovic, I will let the

 6     witness explain.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Goran Milinovic was Chef de Cabinet

 8     of the president of the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Milosevic.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   How often did the president of the Federal Republic of

12     Yugoslavia, Mr. Lilic, visit you and the office of the Chief of

13     General Staff?

14        A.   Mr. Lilic often visited the office of the Chief of the

15     General Staff and the Chief of the General Staff himself, and army units

16     in general.  He was quite involved with the military.

17        Q.   What do you mean by "often"?

18        A.   Roughly twice a month.

19        Q.   Judging by his contacts with you and other knowledge you may

20     have, what was President Lilic's attitude to the General Staff and to

21     General Perisic?

22        A.   It was very correct, very fair.  He had a lot of understanding

23     for the problems of the army and he had every wish to assist the army and

24     to strengthen the federal authorities.

25        Q.   How often did the president of the Republic of Serbia,

Page 13925

 1     Mr. Milosevic, visit the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia and

 2     General Perisic?

 3        A.   Very rarely.  Only exceptionally, in fact.  When he pleased and

 4     several times he visited when the General Staff hosted the sessions of

 5     the Supreme Defence Council.

 6        Q.   How often did you have occasion to meet President Milosevic aside

 7     from his visits to the General Staff and how many times did that happen

 8     at the time you were Chef de Cabinet?

 9        A.   Quite often relative to his visits.

10        Q.   Where would that be?

11        A.   In the residencies that we used for receiving guests in

12     Karadjordjevo and in Dobanovci, at ceremonies and receptions, joint

13     briefings, et cetera.

14        Q.   What was the attitude of President Milosevic towards the Army of

15     Yugoslavia and General Perisic?  Towards the army, in fact.  I'll ask you

16     about Perisic later.

17        A.   It was our pervasive impression that President Milosevic had an

18     attitude towards the army that showed a lack of understanding and lack of

19     trust in the military leadership and the army as an institution.  It was

20     certainly not a relationship of trust and co-operation on an equal

21     footing.

22        Q.   What was his attitude towards the police compared to his attitude

23     towards the army?

24        A.   He treated them much better, and that was obvious in terms of the

25     equipment and facilities made available to the police.  He favoured the

Page 13926

 1     police because the police belonged to the republic, and he had a certain

 2     aversion towards the army which was a federal institution.

 3             MR. LUKIC:

 4        Q.   I have to correct a slight error here.  Page 50, line 4, the

 5     witness said "Karadjordjevo" and "Dobanovci," these are two locations.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are going to have it to spell them again for

 7     the stenographer.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  K-a-r-a-d-j-o-r-d-j-e-v-o.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Madam Interpreter.  I think you were a

10     little too fast for the stenographer.  Can you spell that again?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  K-a-r-a-d-j-o-r-d-j-e-v-o.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And then the next one.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And what is the name of the other

14     location, I better stay myself slowly.  D-o-b-a-n-o-v-c-i.

15        Q.   Now, General, can we talk a bit about these two facilities, what

16     are they and what is their connection to the office of the Chief the

17     General Staff?

18        A.   These were federal buildings intended for purposes of

19     representation.  They were not alone.  There was also a villa at Tara and

20     a villa in Meljinka and they were part of the property under the Chief of

21     the General Staff.  They were secured by the army.  More specifically,

22     the corps of special units.  They were frequently used to house

23     high-ranking delegations visiting the president of the FRY, Mr. Lilic,

24     and the president of Serbia, and the presidents themselves spent time in

25     these facilities.  The Chief of the General Staff used them the least.

Page 13927

 1        Q.   When there was an official visit to President Milosevic,

 2     independently of the military office, if someone wanted to see Milosevic

 3     and his office wanted to organise a meeting in one of these two

 4     buildings, what was the role of the office there?

 5        A.   The office of the president of the republic would send a request

 6     to the office of the Chief of the General Staff to have these buildings

 7     prepared to accommodate the high-ranking delegation in question, and that

 8     meant providing security arrangements, technical support, accommodation,

 9     recreation, et cetera.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  We need a

11     clarification on page 50, lines 10 and 11.

12        Q.   To whom were these buildings subordinated?

13        A.   At that time the office of the Chief of the General Staff.  Later

14     they were subordinated to the Guards Brigade.

15        Q.   But they were not the property of the office of the Chief of

16     General Staff?

17        A.   No, they were not.

18        Q.   I needed to clarify this for the record.  Were you personally a

19     participant in any meetings organised between President Milosevic and the

20     leadership of Serbia with somebody else?

21        A.   No, I was never present or a member of the delegation at any such

22     meetings.

23        Q.   Did you attend any meetings after these gatherings?

24        A.   If I happened to be in that building after these meetings, I

25     would be perhaps invited to stay for dinner.

Page 13928

 1        Q.   If meetings were organised there between some military

 2     delegations and General Perisic was present on one side, did you attend

 3     such meetings?

 4        A.   If General Perisic attended military meetings, it was not a rule

 5     that I should be present too, but I would attend whenever he put me on

 6     the list and he requested my presence.

 7        Q.   All right.  I asked you before who came when, and my next

 8     question would be, did General Mladic visit the office of the Chief of

 9     General Staff during your tenure?

10        A.   General Mladic did come to the office of the Chief of the

11     General Staff.

12        Q.   How often?

13        A.   Very seldom, and he never stayed long.  He visited probably only

14     in passing on his way to somewhere else.  We would just send a car for

15     him.

16        Q.   And whom did he see at the General Staff?

17        A.   He would only see General Perisic.  I don't know that he ever saw

18     any other military officers.

19        Q.   Did you have occasion to meet with General Mladic on his visits

20     to the General Staff?

21        A.   Perhaps two or three times.  Once in the early days when I just

22     came to the office of the General Staff, once when we hosted a meeting of

23     the Supreme Defence Council, and a third time after a ceremony promoting

24     cadets after graduation from military schools.

25        Q.   Could you describe your meeting with General Mladic in the office

Page 13929

 1     of General Perisic?

 2        A.   I don't have good memories of that meeting and if it's not really

 3     necessary, I would not like -- I don't know if you would insist.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You would like to do that now or would you like to

 6     do that after the break?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] After the break is all right.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at half past

 9     12.00.  Court adjourned.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to the private

14     session.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13930

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now I would move to the subject of the collegium.  What are the

12     collegiums of the Chief of General Staff?  And first of all, I will ask

13     you who makes up the collegium of the Chief of General Staff of the

14     Yugoslav Army?

15        A.   The collegium of the Chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav Army

16     is made up of the Chief of General Staff, the Deputy Chief of

17     General Staff, the sector chiefs who are simultaneously assistants to the

18     Chief of General Staff, and the chiefs of independent administrations.

19        Q.   How often did the collegium meet?

20        A.   According to plan, it was periodical; that is to say, we had

21     weekly meetings and outside of the plan as necessary.

22        Q.   In addition to these regular collegiums and those held as

23     necessary, were there any other collegiums and who would attend these

24     meetings in such cases?

25        A.   In addition to the regular meetings of the collegium, there were

Page 13931

 1     also the meetings of the so-called expanded collegium of the Chief of

 2     General Staff.  In addition to the persons I named, now the army

 3     commanders would also attend as well as the commander of the navy, the

 4     commander of the RV and PVO, and units directly subordinated to the

 5     Chief of General Staff.

 6        Q.   How often were these meetings held?

 7        A.   They were held periodically and regularly that was twice a year.

 8        Q.   As far as you know, were such collegium meetings also held before

 9     you were appointed Chef de Cabinet?

10        A.   I think they were.

11        Q.   In your capacity as the Chef de Cabinet of the Chief of

12     General Staff, did you attend the collegium meetings once you were

13     appointed to this position?

14        A.   I attended the collegium meetings.  I also had the right to

15     participate in the discussion but I did not have the right to make any

16     decisions.  I could not vote on any issues and take part in

17     decision-making.

18        Q.   When you say "voting"?

19        A.   Well, it means approving of something, adopting something.

20        Q.   I wanted to ask you what was Perisic's position when decisions

21     were taken in terms of the opinions of the collegium.  When decisions

22     needed to be taken, did he ask the members of the collegium for their

23     opinion and did he respect and take into account their positions?

24        A.   General Perisic always allowed collegium members, he requested

25     them to prepare and to state their views and when he was assessing the

Page 13932

 1     situation generally and within their own sectors, he always asked his

 2     associates to state their opinion.

 3        Q.   Did you become a member of the collegium later on, and if so,

 4     when?

 5        A.   I became a member of the collegium of the Chief of General Staff

 6     when I was appointed chief of the high military school centre and I was

 7     at the same time an assistant of the Chief of General Staff in charge of

 8     education, training, and scientific research and publications within the

 9     Yugoslav Army.

10        Q.   Did every collegium of the Chief of General Staff have a specific

11     form, and if so, how did one of these meetings look in terms of form?

12        A.   Just like everything else in the army, the collegium of the

13     Chief of General Staff had a strict form.  The Chief of General Staff

14     would open the meeting, he would briefly say what the purpose was, and

15     then he would give the floor to others according to certain order.  First

16     of all to General Dimitrijevic who was the chief of the security

17     administration, then to General Krga who was chief of the intelligence

18     administration, and finally to sector chiefs, the operational and staff

19     sector and then others in their turn.

20        Q.   And how did one collegium meeting end?

21        A.   It would end by the Chief of General Staff summarising what was

22     said and he would also issue tasks and set out dead-lines for

23     implementing what was necessary.

24        Q.   And when he issued the tasks at a collegium meeting, did that

25     imply that he would issue these tasks orally or that later on it would be

Page 13933

 1     done in writing?

 2        A.   He would issue the tasks orally but then we would all process

 3     them in writing for ourselves and turn them into plans and duties with

 4     specific dead-lines in a -- according to specific form where it would

 5     also be stated who the agents responsible for their implementation were.

 6        Q.   General, once you came to the office did you introduce any

 7     novelties in terms of the technical form and protocol according to which

 8     these collegium meetings were held?

 9        A.   I think I did because we wanted to have collegium meetings

10     without paperwork.  We wanted to have visual presentations, and at a

11     later stage, we also introduced audio recordings of the collegium

12     meetings.

13        Q.   And for the internal needs of the office, did you do anything in

14     terms of these collegium meetings?

15        A.   After listening to the audio recordings and after transcripts

16     were typed up, the office always extracted from that an internal document

17     which included the tasks issued during the collegium meetings.  The

18     office was supposed to monitor this, and at the beginning of each

19     collegium meetings, the Chief of General Staff should be informed about

20     what of these tasks which were issued during a previous meeting were in

21     the meantime implemented or carried out.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see P2891.  It is

23     a document which I didn't put on my list but during the proofing and in

24     the proofing note I did inform Mr. Harmon of the facts contained in this

25     document.  And now, before presenting it, I received the approval of

Page 13934

 1     Mr. Harmon to present this document, which is an OTP exhibit.

 2             MR. HARMON:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is --

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, let us wait for the

 6     English version to appear on the screen as well.

 7        Q.   What is this that we see on the screen right now?  We can see

 8     that there is a stamp of the office of the Chief of General Staff in the

 9     upper-hand left corner of this document.  Can you tell us what this is?

10        A.   This a document that was drafted after the audio recording of the

11     collegium meeting was completed and this is a document which we would

12     make by extracting some information for our internal needs in order to

13     monitor the tasks and file this in our own archives so that we could

14     always check exactly what is contained, and we would always give the

15     reference to the audio recording and who processed it.  We did it

16     internally within our office and this was our copy that we used just for

17     the needs of our office.

18        Q.   Yes, I wanted --

19        A.   For the needs of the office.

20        Q.   When you say it was an internal document, can you say

21     specifically for whose needs was this document drafted internally?

22        A.   For the office, for the Chief of General Staff and for other

23     members of the office, for the assistant and the deputy of the office and

24     the Chief of General Staff.  So just for us, for internal use within our

25     office.  We needed it for the protocol and to see what tasks had been

Page 13935

 1     issued.

 2        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I think that we have clarified that now.

 3     Now I'll ask you what was the task of the office of the Chief of

 4     General Staff when preparing a collegium meeting.  What do the office

 5     staff do and who do you have to communicate with to do that?

 6        A.   For the regular periodically held meetings, the sector

 7     independent administration chiefs would submit to the office the

 8     questions which they wished to be included on the agenda of the collegium

 9     meetings.  So these would be separate items on the agenda and there were

10     always also the standard items such as the assessment of the security and

11     intelligence and operational situation and then other items followed.

12     These would be the issues proposed by the sector chiefs and then we would

13     submit it for approval to the Chief of General Staff, and if he approved,

14     then that would be included in the agenda for that specific agenda, and

15     we would make a sort of plan of presentations in terms of the contents,

16     the time that was needed, the presentations and so and so forth.

17        Q.   All right.  I have concluded this topic, I would move to a

18     different one now.

19             General, did you have an opportunity to attend meetings with

20     foreign military delegations, let me ask you such a general question, I

21     mean with General Perisic, of course?

22        A.   The answer is yes, I did attend a number of meetings with foreign

23     military representatives and I was in the company of General Perisic.

24        Q.   I would focus on those which were held in the premises of the

25     General Staff and then later on we might move to some other meeting as

Page 13936

 1     well.  So let me ask you, first of all, did you have the chance to meet

 2     some highly ranking officers?  Let me begin with the French army.  Who do

 3     you remember as having visited the office and met with General Perisic?

 4        A.   First there was General de Lapresle, and then later on he was

 5     Advisor de Lapresle.  I saw him in both of these capacities.  Then I also

 6     met General Janvier and officers who came with him.

 7        Q.   Did you have a chance to meet General Douin?

 8        A.   I did not meet General Douin because when General Douin landed at

 9     the airport, he did not wish to leave the aircraft and he did not come to

10     the office, so this was resolved in a different manner.

11        Q.   I will ask you in general terms, the meetings you had with

12     de Lapresle and Janvier, what was the topic of discussion in these

13     meetings and what did you learn about their positions expressed during

14     these meetings?

15        A.   The principle was always that the general or the delegation which

16     asked to be received by the Chief of General Staff would state the reason

17     for their visit and their assessment of the situation in their zones of

18     responsibility.  They would also state their requests or their appeals or

19     whatever they had to ask the Chief of the General Staff and the Yugoslav

20     Army.  They were always very decent in expressing the situation as they

21     saw it and the goals of their mission, and they always acted in a

22     military fashion, especially General Janvier.  He always wanted to

23     co-operate.  He wanted to hear our opinion and to see what was possible,

24     so trying to find common ground and perhaps trying to have some influence

25     to make sure that everything can be done peacefully and that they can

Page 13937

 1     accomplish their own mission in peace.

 2        Q.   Let's try and be more precise.  What mission, what tasks, what

 3     influence?

 4        A.   Their mission was in the territory of the former Republic of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, they always discussed the situation in the field and

 6     how they see it as well as what their further plans were and what kind of

 7     assistance they expected from us as the VJ.

 8        Q.   In terms of any VJ assistance, what did they ask for?

 9        A.   Well, they always wanted the chief to exert a certain degree of

10     influence so that the parties to the conflict would see their role as

11     neutral in order for them to be able to go about their task.  In gist,

12     that was it.  They always asked for understanding and they wanted to see

13     whether we could do something to influence the situation.

14        Q.   To influence who in particular?

15        A.   Usually to influence the leadership of Republika Srpska and the

16     VRS.  They didn't try to ask us to influence the conduct of the Muslim

17     side, of course.

18        Q.   What was General Perisic's position during such meetings?

19        A.   General Perisic --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Harmon.

21             MR. HARMON:  We are getting into an area that is not described in

22     the 65 ter summaries or are we getting into an area in the proofing

23     notes.  This is a new and more detailed area and that 65 ter and the

24     proofing note merely mentions this witness was present with certain

25     French officers and no further details are provided.

Page 13938

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Please bear with me, Your Honour.  I

 3     believe that in the proofing notes, in the proofing notes, Your Honours,

 4     at page 2, we mentioned General Perisic's meetings with the French

 5     generals.  That summary was received by the Chamber -- just a moment.  In

 6     paragraph 18 -- sorry, paragraphs 17 and 18, therein we describe his

 7     meetings with certain people from France and Russia.  We also explicitly

 8     stated that Janvier left a very good impression with the witness.  During

 9     proofing it is not my obligation to disclose everything the witness said.

10     I simply indicated the topic in the proofing note disclosed to

11     Mr. Harmon, the topic of discussions with French representatives and I

12     believe this suffices for him to prepare his cross-examination and that

13     it was not at his detriment, especially having in mind that my

14     examination-in-chief of this witness will take at least another day or

15     two.  And in that regard, I do not believe that this prevents Mr. Harmon

16     from researching this fact any further and to put his own questions

17     during cross-examination.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, you're saying that you mentioned in your

19     proofing note -- first of all, let me go back.  Earlier you said the

20     proofing notes at page 2 mentioned General Perisic's meeting with the

21     French generals and that summary was received by the Chamber.  Do you

22     send proofing notes to the Chamber?

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no.  The summary is what you

24     received but not the proofing notes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Now, as I understood Mr. Harmon's objection

Page 13939

 1     was that, according to him, in your proofing note you said that the

 2     witness was present when the French generals were there.  In your

 3     response you are saying you mentioned to Mr. Harmon the topic of

 4     discussions with French representatives.  Now, I don't have your proofing

 5     note before me so I don't know whether you said he was present when the

 6     French generals were there or whether you said there were discussions, so

 7     I'm not able to rule.  And you see, I have a problem or the Chamber has a

 8     problem that -- with these objections that are raised based on a proofing

 9     note which is a document that we don't receive.  I don't see how the

10     Chamber can rule on such documents.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will read out paragraph 18 of the

12     proofing notes:

13             [In English] "The witness was present at the meetings with

14     Janvier, de Lapresle, Douin, Janvier, Douin.  Janvier made an especially

15     good impression on" him.  Borovic was among the forming of the delegation

16     visit in the Russia and Hungary, that's the other issue.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that it, do you confirm that?

18             MR. HARMON:  Yes, I confirm that that's the extent of the

19     proofing note on -- in respect of these French generals.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then the objection is overruled.

21             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour, I don't want to revisit this

22     but my objection was that there's no discussion in this proofing note of

23     the content of that meeting other than there was a meeting and there was

24     an impression formed.  There's no further details provided in this

25     proofing note or in any other proofing note that has been provided to us

Page 13940

 1     or summary by the Defence in respect of this -- these meetings with the

 2     French generals.  That was the basis of my objection.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  First of all, you are revisiting the point.  Okay.

 4     So to say you don't want to revisit it, is not absolutely correct.

 5     Secondly, I think if proofing note mentions that there are discussions

 6     that are going to be heard, that were heard with the French generals,

 7     surely it's just not for them to be together that we want to know, we

 8     want to know what they talked about.  And maybe you might have wanted to

 9     say to your colleague yes, you are talking about discussions with French

10     generals in your proofing note but you are not telling us what was being

11     discussed.

12             Now, it looks like it's a little too late in the day to make that

13     demand, isn't it?

14             MR. HARMON:  I received a proofing note on the 19th of September

15     late in the afternoon, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Okay.  Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can advise the Chamber of what can

18     be confirmed by Mr. Harmon if we are still on this topic.  Should I offer

19     further arguments or should I go on with my questions?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber did rule, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Sorry.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] General, my question was:  What was

23     General Perisic's position during such meetings with the French generals

24     you've described?

25        A.   Perisic always presented his position fairly and squarely to the

Page 13941

 1     French generals, and he always put things the way they were by saying

 2     that he had no control over the situation and that he was willing to use

 3     his personal influence to impact the situation, but that he cannot

 4     directly affect the behaviour of those in the field especially in the

 5     areas of responsibilities of certain generals.

 6        Q.   When you were appointed Chef de Cabinet and later on, did you

 7     have occasion to learn of General Perisic's meetings with General

 8     Grachev, and did you meet with him as well?

 9        A.   First of all, I have to say that I saw General Grachev in Moscow

10     and later on in the General Staff.  When visits were prepared by the

11     Chief of General Staff and the federal defence minister, Mr. Bulatovic, I

12     would be acquainted with any previous meetings and relationships between

13     the two armed forces.  It was an obligation on the part of the office to

14     be acquainted with the relationship, the types of co-operation, and to

15     formulate our position for any such meetings, but this did not

16     necessarily have to be adopted at the meeting itself.  In any case,

17     before any meetings, I was familiar with the position of foreign

18     representatives, especially Mr. Grachev.  As regards the issues discussed

19     and the -- we discussed basically the same issues in Moscow with

20     General Grachev and Russian defence minister.

21        Q.   What was General Grachev's position at the time?

22        A.   When I was in Moscow, General Grachev was still Chief of the

23     General Staff, he may have been appointed minister by that time, but in

24     any case, I think he was still in the position of chief because at that

25     time there were in the middle of the situation with Grozny and it made

Page 13942

 1     the situation a bit more difficult.  Although I may be mistaken, he may

 2     have been appointed minister by that time.  I'm trying to recall who

 3     represented Russia and I think he was still Chief of the General Staff.

 4        Q.   You mentioned Grozny?

 5        A.   In Chechnya, there was a situation there and he discussed it.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter document

 7     01327D.

 8        Q.   General, it is tab 6 and we'll also have it on the screen.  It is

 9     General Perisic's letter dated the 29th of July, 1994, sent to the

10     minister of defence of the Russian Federation, General Grachev.  The

11     document speaks for itself.  It has to do with the talks about adopting

12     the group of the -- the plan of the Contact Group.  Let's focus on the

13     middle part of the letter.  General Perisic states:

14             "That is why I have invested and still am investing considerable

15     effort to persuade my friend, General Ratko Mladic, to use his great

16     authority to influence the political leadership of Republika Srpska to

17     make them accept the Contact Group peace plan, believing that fair

18     corrections would be made in the interest of the Serbian people.

19     Nevertheless, it should be borne in mind that General Mladic's influence

20     is limited because the political leadership of Republika Srpska will have

21     the final say."  This is what the letter states.

22             Do you know what happened with the Contact Group plan in

23     August 1994 and what was the position of the leadership and the military

24     of Republika Srpska vis-a-vis the plan?

25        A.   I'm not -- I haven't been informed of that as the Chef de

Page 13943

 1     Cabinet, but I was one of the generals who was with the General Staff of

 2     the army and I know that the plan was rejected by the leadership of the

 3     RS.  By that time, we had issued advice to have that accepted because the

 4     VRS had been exhausted by the time and there was no point to continue the

 5     war effort.  But there was this constant lack of communication or

 6     disagreement between the VRS and the Serb leadership in the RS as well as

 7     the military and political leadership of Yugoslavia.  Let me finish,

 8     please.

 9             We believed in the General Staff that our assessment of the

10     situation was better, and that we had more information and better

11     analytical ability as well as better connections with the world, and that

12     we could see the situation far better than they could being -- because

13     they were in the midst of the war.  We also supported the measures of the

14     international community.  However, the leadership there believed that

15     they were more familiar with the situation in the field and that we did

16     not have sufficient understanding.

17             This was the root of the conflicts or the misunderstanding, and I

18     could basically see that General Mladic would not heed to

19     General Perisic's advice and that he was basically acting out as the

20     older acquaintance or friend of the two.  We frequently analysed with

21     General Perisic how we should put our case to them as to convince them

22     that it was a better approach.  In any case, the plan was finally

23     rejected.

24        Q.   When you say at page 67, line 24, you say the leadership did not

25     accept the proposal, what leadership?

Page 13944

 1        A.   Of the RS.  They never accepted the position of our leadership

 2     during the joint meetings held on the office premises.

 3        Q.   While we are on this topic, I forgot to ask you something,

 4     actually it has to do with the last topic.  Did anyone of the RS

 5     leadership visit the office and General Perisic?  I have in mind the

 6     political leaders.

 7        A.   Professor Koljevic was frequently in the office, and before

 8     Minister Buha travelled to Geneva, Buha, he came there for preparation.

 9        Q.   Did they come to see Perisic personally or did they come to the

10     office?

11        A.   There was no reason for anyone to come to the office.  They all

12     went to see the chief if he was there.  In any case, they also came to

13     Belgrade because of some other issues.  Civilians, for example, would

14     come to the office and then would go on to see other people, and I know

15     that Professor Koljevic met with Prince Karadjordjevic and that he

16     frequently discussed matters with him.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have an exhibit

18     number for this document, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

20     please be given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

22     Exhibit D475.  Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   While we were -- while we are still with the Russians, were you

25     part of any delegation on a visit to Moscow and you were visiting who?

Page 13945

 1        A.   Yes, we were visiting Moscow and the delegation consisted of

 2     Minister Bulatovic, myself, I believe also the Chef de Cabinet of the

 3     chief, perhaps the Chef de Cabinet of the minister as well, although I'm

 4     not sure.  It was not a large delegation.  We had a definite set of

 5     issues to discuss.  There was, of course, an interpreter and we were

 6     joined there by our envoy and the ambassador, Danilo Markovic.

 7        Q.   Could you tell us approximately when that visit took place?

 8        A.   I believe in the latter part of 1995.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up 01124D from the

10     Defence 65 ter list.

11        Q.   This document does not bear a date and if we look at the last

12     page there's no signature either.  Do you know anything about this

13     document?  Do you know what it is?

14        A.   It was our draft made during preparations.  Our minister would

15     always carry a draft on such a visit whenever we initiated the visit.

16     It's a draft of the agreement the way we see it and, of course, during

17     the talks, it is further negotiated and harmonised and the final version

18     is translated, but of course, you don't start such a visit without a

19     draft.  It was a working paper.

20        Q.   Do you remember whether some sort of agreement with the Russian

21     Federation was ultimately signed during that visit?

22        A.   I don't know whether the agreement as such was signed, but there

23     was always an Official Note signed and a communique after our talks with

24     Minister Grachev and the prime minister, Kozyrev.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see some writing, handwriting to the right of

Page 13946

 1     the stamp just below the line on which somebody would sign.  Would that

 2     not be a signature?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have my own reading of this, but

 4     perhaps the witness can tell us what that is below the stamp.  If we can

 5     zoom in on it.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I'm addressing you because you are

 7     interpreted as having said:  "There's no date and no signature either on

 8     this document."

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Oh, that's why I said this.  If you

10     look at the first page, it's just a kind of verification of the document,

11     but if you look at the third -- in fact, this signature is not a

12     signature of the negotiator.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have no control of the pages.  I'm looking at

14     the page that is before -- on the screen right now.  I see some writing

15     that looks like a signature.  Is that not it?

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, it isn't.  If we can look at the

17     third page.  I know you are asking me -- but that agreement was not

18     signed by the parties who were supposed to sign it.  This is just a

19     signature confirming that the document is authentic, like a confirmation

20     of authenticity.  But if you look at the last page, things become

21     clearer.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I think let's turn to the witness

23     because you are now testifying quite a bit.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we have a look at the third page then.  Is

Page 13947

 1     this the third page?

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Correct.  In English it's page 3, but

 3     it's not page 3 in B/C/S.  We need the next page in B/C/S.  Next page in

 4     B/C/S.  We need the end of the text.  Right.

 5        Q.   Perhaps the witness can now explain all that we can see on the

 6     screen.  Mr. Borovic, go ahead.

 7        A.   This stamp and signature confirm on behalf of the person who let

 8     you have this document, that all the pages are there, but the signatures

 9     of the parties were to be affixed just below the lines that say "For the

10     government of the Russian Federation, for the federal government of the

11     SFRY."  This was just written by the team that prepared this document.

12        Q.   If the agreement had been concluded, where would the writing be?

13     Would there be any blank spaces?

14        A.   There would be no blank spaces.  You would see specific numbers

15     in the line that says the agreement was done in such and such a place on

16     such and such a date.  These two lines would be filled.

17        Q.   During that meeting in Moscow, do you remember what the positions

18     of the parties were?  Were the problems of the Republic of Serbian

19     Krajina discussed?

20        A.   They were on the agenda, the problems concerning the Republic of

21     Serbia of Serbian Krajina.

22        Q.   What do you remember?

23        A.   I remember everything about that.  I remember, and I'll tell you

24     just about the finale.  At the last meeting with the prime minister,

25     Kozyrev, which lasted 30 minutes, Prime Minister Kozyrev explicitly put

Page 13948

 1     forward three questions.  One, can the Republic of Serbian Krajina defend

 2     itself left to its own devices.  Since the minister spoke Russian and I

 3     understand Russian, I understood what he said even before it was

 4     interpreted and we had our own position prepared.  Our reply, the

 5     Republic of Serbian Krajina cannot defend itself left to its own devices.

 6             The second question was what [as interpreted] did the Army of

 7     Yugoslavia get involved in the conflict to protect the Republic of

 8     Serbian Krajina.  Our answer again was that the Army of Yugoslavia would

 9     not interfere in the conflict of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and

10     would not intervene militarily.

11             And I think the third question was would the leadership of the

12     Serbian Krajina come to some sort of agreement with the Republic of

13     Croatia.  I can't remember the exact wording of that question, but the

14     three questions were very precise and we said no to all of them.  And the

15     minister concluded that the Republic of Serbian Krajina would be no more.

16        Q.   Why was your position at the time and why did you say to

17     Prime Minister Kozyrev of Russia that the Army of Yugoslavia would not

18     get involved in the conflict in Krajina?  What were your arguments?

19        A.   Our overall position was that the Army of Yugoslavia would not

20     get involved in any conflicts outside the borders of Yugoslavia.  The JNA

21     itself had never waged war outside its own territory.  And the Army of

22     Yugoslavia wasn't going to either.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please get an exhibit number

24     for this document.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, we can.  Before we do, let me just understand

Page 13949

 1     your answer, Mr. Borovic.  You say "the JNA itself had never waged war

 2     outside its own territory."

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What year are we looking at hear?  What year is

 5     this discussion that you are taking place?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These discussions were in 1995, in

 7     Moscow.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.  The document is admitted into

 9     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

11     Exhibit D476.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Did you ever visit the General Staff of Hungary, and if so, when

15     was that and who took part in that visit?

16        A.   I was part of that delegation from the General Staff that visited

17     the General Staff of Hungary, and it was in the town of Segedin.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up from the 65 ter list

19     10 -- sorry 01066D.

20        Q.   General, look at this document.  Perhaps we should turn to page 3

21     to see who wrote it.  Let's just wait for that page.

22        A.   You can see the initials.  Biljana Borovic and Sinisa Majstorovic

23     [as interpreted], that's a document I prepared for the chief.

24        Q.   It was signed by?

25        A.   The chief, Momcilo Perisic.

Page 13950

 1        Q.   Let's now go back to the previous pages.  The document speaks for

 2     itself but what is the gist of it, who was it sent to, what was the

 3     purpose of this note?

 4        A.   We prepare our own notes and the Hungarian side prepares its own,

 5     and before that we made a joint communique after the meeting.  I can only

 6     confirm that whatever is written here is indeed so because I wrote it

 7     myself.

 8        Q.   Who was it sent to?

 9        A.   No one.  It's our own document.

10        Q.   Just a moment.

11        A.   To whom was it addressed?  Well, to our own authorities.  We

12     always had to report to the president of the Supreme Defence Council,

13     that is, the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  We had to

14     report after every visit.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see page 2 in B/C/S.

16        Q.   In what sense was it important for the position of the

17     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to co-operate with Hungary?

18        A.   It's always important.  Hungary is our neighbour.  There is a

19     large Hungarian minority in the north of SerbiaHungary was at that

20     time preparing to become a member state of NATO.  It had military

21     standards in its army that we were striving to match in the Army of

22     Yugoslavia, and they were also very anxious to avoid any spillover of the

23     conflicts in Croatia across their border, and that was our common

24     interest, to follow-up on the situation, to monitor events, to have a

25     good military co-operation, to have a direct communication without any

Page 13951

 1     special demands or plans, whatever.

 2        Q.   Now on page 2 --

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the penultimate

 4     paragraph in English.

 5        Q.   It says:

 6             "Out of the areas of further bilateral co-operation, they

 7     expressed their wish that the existing telephone communication, the

 8     so-called hot line, would be maintained and made more reliable."

 9        A.   We already mentioned one type of hot line and they had misgivings

10     about the security of this hot line because our communication systems

11     were disrupted in certain areas.  Some of them remained behind enemy

12     lines and we promised to check on it and all the hot lines were indeed

13     secure.

14        Q.   Let us look at the last part of the document.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's the same page in B/C/S and in

16     English we have to move to the next one.  Concerning intelligence.

17        Q.   It says "chief of intelligence."  I'm especially interested in

18     the last sentence.  Was it customary for intelligence services of

19     neighbouring countries to co-operate, and if so, why was it important?

20        A.   Normally the countries that are not in conflict co-operate at the

21     level of their intelligence services, especially if they have a good

22     military co-operation.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have an exhibit number

24     for this document.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

Page 13952

 1     please be given an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 3     Exhibit D477.  Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Please bear with me, Your Honours.  I

 5     will change tack slightly.  I will go back in terms of chronology and

 6     would return to certain topics at a later point.

 7        Q.   I wanted to ask you something about Operation Flash.  We've heard

 8     evidence of it being underway in May 1995.  And do you remember how that

 9     attack on Western Slavonia affected the position of the military

10     leadership?

11        A.   Well, it had a negative impact for sure.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which military leadership do you have in mind,

13     Mr. Lukic?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I meant the VJ.

15        Q.   How did those events impact on the position of the VJ?

16        A.   I can tell you that the Army of Yugoslavia always saw such

17     events, and this one in particular, as a further threat to the security

18     of Yugoslavia and as something that would result in bringing the war

19     conflict closer to our borders.  This amounted to a new security

20     situation which was more complex than the previous one.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter document

22     02176D.

23        Q.   This is an intelligence bulletin of the 2nd administration of the

24     General Staff of the VJ dated the 5th of May, 1992.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to the next page

Page 13953

 1     in both versions.

 2        Q.   I believe I asked you in -- during previous session about the

 3     author of this document.  Where does it come from?

 4        A.   It came from our 2nd intelligence administration of the General

 5     Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   What does the document say about Operation Flash?

 7        A.   Well, it recognises the existing situation and offers further

 8     assessment of developments relative to or detrimental to the security of

 9     the FRY.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me check if the paragraph I'm

11     looking for in the English version is on this page.  I believe it is the

12     next page in the English version.  One more page, please.  The last

13     paragraph, Your Honours.  Before item 1.3, it is the middle of the page

14     in English.  Yes.

15        Q.   In the B/C/S, it says -- General, I'm reading it out now.  It

16     says:

17             "On the other hand, the state and military leadership of the RSK

18     burdened with internal conflicts, personal and other interests, had not

19     undertaken everything necessary in order not to, firstly, fall for

20     Croatian provocations and, secondly, to make all the preparations to

21     successfully repel the aggression."

22             Who did General Krga get this information from which he later

23     entered into the bulletin?

24        A.   As any other intelligence service, his service also received

25     information from his bodies and from the units he was in contact with.

Page 13954

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to the next page in both

 3     versions, please.  The next page in the B/C/S.  It is page 4 so one more,

 4     sorry.  Yes, this one.  It is page 5 in the English.  Sorry, page 6.

 5        Q.   I'm interested in the first paragraph of 1.4, "Experiences."

 6     Whose assessment is this?

 7        A.   Also that of the 2nd administration.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we receive an exhibit number for

 9     this document, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

11     please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

13     Exhibit D478.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   General, in the summer of 1995, there seems to have been an

17     incident in Markale market in Sarajevo, did you hear of that?

18        A.   I did and so did the world.

19        Q.   What did you hear at the time?

20        A.   We heard that a shell landed at the market and that there were

21     numerous victims.  This initial information was followed by other

22     information.  Our intelligence administration immediately offered its

23     assessment and the competent organs in the General Staff considered it,

24     trying to pin-point the location where the shell had come from and what

25     the reason for that was.  As of the very beginning, it didn't seem to be

Page 13955

 1     a plausible explanation; that is, that the shell had arrived from the

 2     positions where the Serb forces were.

 3        Q.   Let me stop you there.  My first question is whether this was

 4     actually a controversy among the public as to the origin of the shell?

 5        A.   Yes, this was a controversial topic.

 6        Q.   Was it also broached by the media?

 7        A.   Yes, it was so in the media and intelligence services usually

 8     know how it works.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we next please have 65 ter

10     document 01087D.

11        Q.   Again we have an intelligence bulletin, this one is number 28,

12     and it is dated September 1995.  Who authored this document?

13        A.   It was offered by the 2nd administration of the General Staff and

14     its chief, and by its chief.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to the next page, please.

16        Q.   It says here Markale 2 orchestrated by the USA and France, and

17     some pieces of information are contained therein which speaks for

18     themselves.  At that time -- or, rather, let me put it in a more general

19     way.  Concerning different types of information you received, what

20     information was more important and which were less important in your

21     view?

22        A.   The highest degree of authenticity and reliability was that

23     offered by our 2nd administration.

24        Q.   If you were to assess the quality of a certain piece of

25     information and assign, say, grades to information coming from various

Page 13956

 1     sources, including the intelligence administration, how would you grade

 2     their information in situations such as this one?

 3        A.   Well, so as not to lecture here but I'll try to put it this way,

 4     if there is a piece of information coming from the 2nd administration and

 5     if I were to grade it with a 3, then if I were faced with a piece of

 6     information from the media, I would assign it a grade of .25.

 7        Q.   How much did you trust the media at the time?

 8        A.   The army never trusted the media because they are prone to

 9     propaganda, sensationalism, and under the influence of those who control

10     them and pay them.  We, of course, considered those sources but we always

11     tasked the 2nd administration to verify any information coming from the

12     media.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me correct something for the

14     transcript.

15        Q.   If you graded security administration information with a 3, what

16     grade would you give to media information?

17        A.   .25, in terms of importance of that information and its weight.

18        Q.   Please repeat.  Just the figure.

19        A.   .25, or 0.25.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next page of the document,

22     please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say that again, Mr. Lukic.  Oh, okay.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted the end of the

25     document.

Page 13957

 1        Q.   The last two paragraphs, please read them and I'll have a

 2     question for you.  Does what is stated therein reflect your recollection

 3     of what followed the incident at Markale concerning air-strikes on the

 4     positions of Bosnian Serbs?

 5             My question is this:  Do you know what happened following the

 6     incident?  In one sentence and then we'll discuss it further tomorrow.

 7        A.   I remember that no proper investigation was carried out and no

 8     credible expert opinion was provided by international experts.  It was

 9     somewhat surprising to hear that the international community did not set

10     up a team to investigate it.

11        Q.   Was it followed shortly afterwards by a military intervention?

12        A.   Yes, Operation Deliberate Force.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document and I

14     suggest we adjourn for the day.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

16     please be given an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

18     Exhibit D479.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             Mr. Borovic, we have not finished with your testimony.  We cannot

21     carry on for the day, we have to break for the day.  You are still on the

22     witness-stand, therefore you may not discuss the contents of this case

23     with anybody, and least of all with the Defence team.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Then the matter stands

Page 13958

 1     adjourned to tomorrow morning at 9.00, same courtroom.  Court adjourned.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of

 4                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.