Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13959

 1                           Tuesday, 21 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Good morning, Mr. Registrar.  Will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have the appearances

12     for the day, starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, counsel.

14     Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Harmon.  And for the

16     Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning to everyone in the trial against Mr. Perisic.  He is represented

19     in the courtroom today by Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, Boris Zorko and

20     Novak Lukic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.

22             Good morning to you, Mr. Borovic.  I hope you have had a good

23     rest last night.  Mr. Borovic, just to remind that you are still bound by

24     the declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell

25     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.  Thank you so

Page 13960

 1     much.

 2             Mr. Lukic.

 3                           WITNESS:  SINISA BOROVIC [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:  [Continued]

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General, to you personally.  Let

 7     me address you like that now.  We will continue with different topics,

 8     but with the same rhythm as yesterday, please consider that you should

 9     wait a little bit with your answer after my question.  We managed to be

10     warned only once by interpreters yesterday and not a single time by the

11     Trial Chamber, which I considered a success.

12             Let me go back a little bit.  When did you learn that the Army of

13     Republika Srpska is to be formed?

14        A.   I learned from General Djukic when he was supposed to go and hand

15     over his duty to me, he then told me that it would be formed and that he

16     was leaving for Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   Did you have an occasion later on in your work to meet

18     General Djukic?

19        A.   Yes, I did.  I met him later as well.  We also lived close by and

20     he used to visit the technical administration.

21        Q.   What can you tell us about General Djukic's position about

22     General Mladic, judging on these later occasions when you met him?

23        A.   His position was that it was very difficult to influence the

24     General.

25        Q.   Yesterday you told us a bit about the dislocation of the

Page 13961

 1     Yugoslav People's Army when it was withdrawing from the territory of

 2     Bosnia and Croatia and what were the problems which arose in connection

 3     with this withdrawal process.  While you were working in the technical

 4     administration and later, what did you know about the misappropriation of

 5     materiel of the Yugoslav Army by the Army of Republika Srpska?  How was

 6     that done?  Was it done in an organised manner or not?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So, Mr. Lukic, you are interpreted as saying "the

 8     misappropriation."  Is that what you said?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

10        Q.   Maybe the English word used is wrong, but simply can you tell us

11     anything about how the materiel and technical equipment were sent to

12     Republika Srpska during the time while you were in the technical

13     administration?

14        A.   The technical equipment and materiel was sent to the

15     Army of Republika Srpska in two ways.  One was legal and documented and

16     the other way was illegal because the materiel withdrawn from republics

17     that had seceded were not entered in the system of the Yugoslav Army.

18     They were probably on the vehicles on which they had been towed.  So it

19     happened because the situation was such that the logistical structure in

20     the technical service was dominated by people from Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina.

22             So sometimes they would illegally hand over technical equipment

23     and materiel, because of this we frequently had to block off our own

24     depots in order to prevent this misappropriation.  And then there was

25     also illegal smuggling and all kinds of channels were used.  These were

Page 13962

 1     all difficulties for us because we were building our own service and our

 2     own army and we also had to fight all kinds of problems which arose from

 3     the war and most of them were of an illegal nature.

 4        Q.   What sort of measures did you in the technical service take in

 5     connection with this kind of incident?

 6        A.   We requested assistance from security organs so that they would

 7     secure the depots and we would dismiss some of the desk clerks who

 8     allowed this kind of practice to happen.

 9        Q.   What was General Perisic's position when he was assigned the

10     Chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav Army in connection with this sort

11     of illegal misappropriation of technical equipment and materiel?

12        A.   I don't know what his position was when he was appointed to his

13     duty, but when I came to the office he probably had not changed his

14     position.  It was that nothing should be done illegally by smuggling, by

15     abusing assistance, but that everything should be done through legal

16     institutions.  He provided assistance to everyone who was protecting the

17     property of the Yugoslav Army.  He also issued tasks to Aco Dimitrijevic

18     and to commanders to prevent this, and he also took measures within his

19     remit of work directed at commanding officers who were his subordinates

20     to stop that.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, Judge David wants to

22     ask you a question.

23             JUDGE DAVID:  General, let me go back to a question that was

24     asked by Mr. Lukic.  At page 12, lines 35, 36, it says:  "When did you

25     learn that the Army of the Republika Srpska is to be formed," and he said

Page 13963

 1     "when."  And you said, lines 37 to 39, "I learned from General Djukic,"

 2     but you didn't say when.  So could you give us the dates for that

 3     question?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I probably have the date

 5     somewhere in my file.  I don't know the exact date, but once I received

 6     my duty in the technical service from General Djukic, that was the time.

 7     It could be specified but I don't remember the exact date.  I remember

 8     that it happened and that I gave some staff equipment to the General, a

 9     ruler and something, but I don't remember when exactly that this

10     happened.

11             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we did not include the

13     personnel file of this witness among the documents to be used because we

14     considered that it was not relevant because he was a member of the

15     Yugoslav Army all along, but I think I went through these dates at the

16     beginning of my questioning.  If you wish, I might present the dates to

17     the witness as it figures in his personnel file and then he can confirm

18     it.

19             JUDGE DAVID:  Not necessary.  I just wanted the witness to answer

20     your question.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please see 5628

22     [as interpreted], which is a Prosecution exhibit.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, we haven't reached 5000 exhibits even

24     for the Prosecution in this trial.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It was P628.

Page 13964

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   As we can see, this is a memo from the Chief of General Staff of

 4     the Army of Yugoslavia dated the 15th of August, 1994, where he refers to

 5     his instructions from the 18th of February of the same year.  And as you

 6     were still a member of the technical administration at the time, does

 7     this reflect what you advocated at the time in connection with the

 8     subject we were just discussing?

 9        A.   Yes, it does, and there were such warnings and orders issued

10     later as well.

11        Q.   We heard here before this Court the evidence that in early

12     August 1994, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia imposed an embargo on

13     Republika Srpska.  I will now ask you if you remember what was

14     General Perisic's position and the position of the Yugoslav Army towards

15     this embargo, generally speaking?

16        A.   I remember that the position of General Ratko Milovanovic, who

17     was the deputy -- he was the assistant for logistics to General Perisic,

18     that we had to honour these sanctions strictly and that we must not

19     provoke the international community with anything.

20        Q.   And later on when you were transferred to the Chief of

21     General Staff office, did you have an occasion to talk about this with

22     General Perisic, so do you know what was his position beginning in

23     December 1994 and onwards with regard to this matter?

24        A.   General Perisic strictly carried out the orders of the

25     Supreme Defence Council at the time and he never issued orders to his

Page 13965

 1     subordinates to do anything that was not in accordance with these

 2     decisions.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  General, have you heard of General Boro Ivanovic?

 4        A.   Yes, I heard of him and I knew General Boro Ivanovic.

 5        Q.   Which duty was he performing in 1994?

 6        A.   General Ivanovic was in the Novi Sad Corps.  I think that he was

 7     Chief of Staff and then later on the commander of the Novi Sad Corps.

 8        Q.   Of which army?

 9        A.   The Yugoslav Army.

10        Q.   I'm just asking you to be precise, that's all.  Do you remember

11     whether any proceedings were initiated against him in connection with the

12     topic we are discussing right now?

13        A.   I remember that there were proceedings initiated against him.  I

14     think I was in the 1st Army at the time and that -- and that he was

15     removed from duty at the time.  I cannot remember what was the exact

16     reason.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see a document

18     from the 65 ter Defence list, 01166D.  First of all, can we turn to the

19     next page to see who signed this document, and then we would return to

20     the first page, if possible.

21        Q.   This is a decision by which Major-General Boro Ivanovic is to

22     face trial before the disciplinary court pursuant to a decision of the

23     General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, Colonel-General Momcilo Perisic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now if we can please show page 1

25     again and you might read it for yourself, and I also invite the

Page 13966

 1     Trial Chamber to have a look at this document and then after a few

 2     seconds I will ask you a question about it.

 3        Q.   General, the document speaks for itself.  Let me ask you this:

 4     The format of this document about initiating disciplinary proceedings

 5     against him, does it have to do with what we have discussed so far?

 6             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to the witness

 7     testifying about this document.  He testified earlier that he could not

 8     remember the reason why this individual was sanctioned.  He was in the

 9     1st Army at the time, he thinks he was removed from duty.  Unless he can

10     lay a better foundation for the use of this document, I object to the

11     witness testifying about it.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.  I'm not

13     sure that was the witness's answer and I was trying to jog the witness's

14     memory since we showed this document to him during the proofing.  And

15     Mr. Harmon also stated his position about the document.  In that regard,

16     I wanted to ask the witness this:

17        Q.   General, do you know what the reasons were to initiate this

18     disciplinary procedure against --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Wait a minute, wait a minute, Mr. Lukic.  There is

20     an objection on the table so you don't go to the witness to address the

21     objection.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

23             MR. HARMON:  I'm referring to the answer, Your Honour, that's

24     found at page 7, line 8 through 11.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I maintain that it is my belief the

Page 13967

 1     witness's recollection could be jogged by this document.  And perhaps now

 2     that he can see it before him, he may be able to recall the reasons as to

 3     why this disciplinary procedure was initiated.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is being used to jog the witness's

 5     memory, sir.

 6             MR. HARMON:  That's fine.  Then I withdraw my objection, but if

 7     it doesn't jog his memory, then I will re-assert my objection,

 8     Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   General, have a look at the document.  Do you recall based on

12     this document what the reasons were to initiate the disciplinary

13     proceedings against Mr. Ivanovic?

14        A.   I think I mentioned in my answer that I cannot recall exactly

15     whether he was Chief of Staff or commander at the time of his removal,

16     but in any case, he was removed because overstepped the authority to

17     issue equipment to the VRS and the ARSK from the reserves of the VJ in

18     contravention to the decision that existed.  I know he was removed and I

19     know what his subsequent fate was and this document dealt with the issue.

20     I didn't see it at the time but I was familiar with that situation.  I

21     know of his removal because he overstepped his authority.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document into

23     evidence, Your Honour.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I also know Colonel

25     Miodrag Jovanovic who is referred to in the document.

Page 13968

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 4     Exhibit D480.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document regarding this

 7     topic, since you know -- since you said that he was removed, is another

 8     65 ter document number 01165D.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I know that document is gone, Mr. Lukic, but as it

10     left, looking at the tables on the two languages, the language on the --

11     the table on the English language looked very scanty compared to the one

12     on the other side, on the B/C/S.  Not this one, the previous document,

13     Exhibit D480.  Sorry, I would like to see that again, I'm sorry.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Certainly.  Could we please have the

15     previous document back.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  Now, if you look at the items that are

17     supposed to have been disposed of in English there are so few, and in the

18     B/C/S the table is huge.  I would like to have a fuller table of the

19     English version.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think we have a full

21     translation, as far as I can see.  If you look at the dots in the B/C/S,

22     they are there just to mark the space between the type of equipment and

23     the number of pieces.  In the English, these items are simply brought

24     closer.  There are no dots, but the rest corresponds.  This is actually

25     the official translation of the CLSS.  The only thing missing is that

Page 13969

 1     right after the number it doesn't say "pieces" which is something there

 2     is in the B/C/S.  The rest, I believe, fully corresponds to the B/C/S

 3     version.  If you compare the numbers, you'll be able to see that.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  We had only been shown the

 5     first page of the English and I didn't see the second page.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Apologies, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can go to your next document.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document, as I said, is

 9     65 ter 01165D.

10        Q.   Before us is a presidential decree issued by the FRY president

11     dated the 2nd August 1994.  If we look down the page, we see that it was

12     signed for the president by whom?

13        A.   This is General Perisic's signature.  He could sign this decree

14     on behalf of the FRY president.  So the decree was proposed by the

15     Chief of General Staff and the FRY president could accept or reject, and

16     General Perisic signed this as part of his own remit.

17        Q.   Can you just repeat the last part of your sentence.

18        A.   Well, the presidential decree was accepted and under his

19     authority, the Chief of General Staff signed this document.

20        Q.   Let me ask you something else.  You described yesterday your

21     contacts with Mr. Milosevic.  What could you tell us about the amount and

22     type of information Mr. Milosevic received from VJ generals?

23        A.   President Milosevic knew personally all VJ generals, but he

24     didn't treat all of them equally.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness is not answering your question.  And

Page 13970

 1     I'm not quite sure whether the question you put is what you want to ask.

 2             "What could you tell us about the amount and type of information

 3     Mr. Milosevic received from VJ generals?"

 4             That's a huge question.  I don't know whether anybody -- I don't

 5     know whether Mr. Milosevic can answer that question himself.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll be more precise, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   To the best of your recollection and the information you had, did

 8     Mr. Milosevic know all VJ generals in terms of being familiar with their

 9     background and professionalism?

10        A.   President Milosevic knew all VJ generals because he was in charge

11     of their promotion.  He had his own information and his own opinion of

12     them and he also received information from them as he did from other

13     services.

14        Q.   Did he have the same position vis-a-vis all VJ generals?

15        A.   President Milosevic did not have the same position towards all

16     generals of the VJ.  He seemed to respect more those generals who were

17     inclined towards his line of policy and his own party than those who were

18     simply professionals.

19        Q.   We could see in this document that in August 1994 General

20     Ivanovic was removed from duty.  Do you know what happened with him later

21     on as part of the disciplinary procedure initiated?

22        A.   I know that he was placed in another position and promoted.

23        Q.   By whose decision?

24        A.   Well, only the Supreme Defence Council could decide on generals

25     promotion, and although I cannot say precisely, but I presume that it was

Page 13971

 1     President Milosevic's decision.

 2             MR. HARMON:  I'm going to object to that.  It is his speculation.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't think this is speculation.

 4     He told us what the extent of his knowledge is about the way generals are

 5     promoted.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I am objecting to the speculation that

 7     "I presume it was Milosevic's decision."  I think that's speculation.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will not put any further questions

 9     in that vein.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it definitely was not

11     President Djukanovic's decision.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Borovic, the procedure here is, when you see

13     counsel for the Prosecution standing up and objecting, you keep quiet.

14     Okay?  You don't say one word until we come back to you.  Okay.

15             Yes, Mr. Lukic, the witness said "I presume."

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I won't put any further questions in

17     that vein.  I just wanted to know whose decision it was formally

18     speaking.  Officially speaking.

19        Q.   Did General Perisic express his position to you about this

20     disciplinary procedure against Ivanovic and after the Supreme Defence

21     Council decision?

22        A.   I don't recall having spoken with General Perisic about this

23     topic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document into

25     evidence, Your Honours.

Page 13972

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 4     Exhibit D481.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   General, have you heard of the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres?

 8        A.   Yes, I have.

 9        Q.   Have you ever seen the documents establishing these personnel

10     centres while you were in your various duties with the VJ?

11        A.   I have.  I have seen the documents about the establishment and

12     functioning of personnel centres.

13        Q.   In your view or in your knowledge, what was the job of the

14     30th and 40th Personnel Centres?

15        A.   These were administrative bodies under the personnel

16     administration which were established to keep registers and deal with the

17     status of those officers who were with the VRS and the ARSK.  And they

18     were later on sent as volunteers to these two armed forces.

19        Q.   While you were in the office as Chef de Cabinet, did you have any

20     contact with the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres of the VJ?

21        A.   I did not have any contact.  There was no working relationship

22     and there was no connection in terms of hierarchy between the personnel

23     centres and our administration.  I did have contact with the personnel

24     administration, though.

25        Q.   If some material had to be prepared for a session of the

Page 13973

 1     Supreme Defence Council that had to do with those officers who belonged

 2     to the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres, who was in charge of preparing

 3     that material for the Chief of General Staff?

 4        A.   All material for the Supreme Defence Council which had to do with

 5     personnel issues was prepared by the sector for manning and mobilisation.

 6     That is to say, by General Matovic.  That kind of material did not go

 7     through the office.

 8        Q.   Does it also include promotions of VJ generals?

 9        A.   It also included promotions of VJ generals.  For us it was a

10     secret because all of us who were in the office were of junior ranks to

11     those proposed for promotion.

12        Q.   What are the tasks of the office of the Chief of the

13     General Staff in preparing a session of the Supreme Defence Council?

14     What does the office do?

15        A.   The office prepared a plan of presentations, visual presentations

16     to be made by the Chief of the General Staff at a Supreme Defence Council

17     session, for instance.  As for documents and background material that was

18     prepared by assistants according to their various departments.

19        Q.   Just be more precise when you say "assistants"?

20        A.   Assistant for personnel, Mr. -- General Matovic,

21     General Martinovic would be assistant for general affairs, et cetera.

22        Q.   Those would be chiefs of sectors?

23        A.   Yes, they would be chiefs of sectors and at the same time

24     assistants to the Chief of General Staff.

25        Q.   Did you ever attend a session of the Supreme Defence Council?

Page 13974

 1        A.   To the extent I can remember now, I attended only one that was

 2     held at the General Staff.

 3        Q.   When, if you can remember?  At the time General Perisic was the

 4     chief, during your tenure as Chef de Cabinet or later?

 5        A.   I think that was when I served in the office.  It was a

 6     conference hall in the General Staff headquarters.  You could look at the

 7     minutes to see which session it was.

 8        Q.   Where were Supreme Defence Council sessions normally held?

 9        A.   Sessions of the Supreme Defence Council, the VSO, were normally

10     held in a villa in a neighbourhood of Belgrade called Senjak or another

11     neighbourhood called Dedinje.  Sometimes they were held in the former

12     building of the federal government which held the office of the president

13     of Yugoslavia, Mr. Lilic.  And exceptionally they would be held in the

14     office of the Chief of General Staff.

15        Q.   Do you remember how many times VSO sessions were held in the

16     General Staff headquarters?

17        A.   To the extent I can remember now, I think during my tenure it

18     happened twice.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you mean by "VSO," Mr. Lukic?

20             MR. LUKIC:  SDC, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Supreme Defence Council.

23        Q.   Did the office of the Chief of General Staff later receive

24     minutes from Supreme Defence Council sessions?

25        A.   The VSO is the Supreme Defence Council and their decisions and

Page 13975

 1     minutes would not be passed on to the office of the Chief of

 2     General Staff.

 3        Q.   You told us yesterday you lecture on a subject called the theory

 4     of decision-making.  Tell me, what importance do decisions of the

 5     Supreme Defence Council have for the office of the Chief of the

 6     General Staff?

 7        A.   The Chief of the General Staff has to implement decisions of the

 8     Supreme Defence Council in the best possible way.

 9        Q.   Let's move to a different subject.  Did the office receive

10     requests from the Army of Republika Srpska, the Army of the RSK, the

11     governments of the RSK and Republika Srpska for material assistance?  Did

12     these requests pass through the office of the Chief of General Staff?

13        A.   Requests coming from the General Staff of the Army of

14     Republika Srpska did pass through and were supposed to pass through our

15     office.  Requests from the ministries of these republics were supposed to

16     pass through our office to the minister.

17        Q.   Which office?

18        A.   The office of the defence minister of the Federal Republic of

19     Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   What is the procedure normally when you receive such a request

21     from, let's say, the General Staff of the VRS, the Army of Republika

22     Srpska?

23        A.   In the office we would study the request, see what kind of

24     request it was, and depending on whose jurisdiction, whose purview it was

25     along tactical lines, we would pass it to the General Staff of the Army

Page 13976

 1     of Yugoslavia for them to assess their own abilities to assist.  And then

 2     they were supposed to suggest a certain position or a certain decision to

 3     the Chief of the General Staff.

 4        Q.   Before we go on, to the best of your knowledge, what elements

 5     would be taken into account by the tactical decision-makers when they

 6     assess a request?

 7        A.   The first criterion would be to what extent granting such

 8     assistance would lessen the combat readiness of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 9     Whether the assets required would be from surpluses and reserves or they

10     would be from the currently used assets of the VJ.  And since we had

11     quotas for everything, they would assess to what extent the request was

12     justified by the assignment, the mission cited in the document, because

13     it was thought that the organs of these two armies did not know the

14     situation on the ground very well and did not know the status of their

15     own reserves and supplies very well.

16        Q.   What kind of information did you in the VJ have about that?

17     Could you just answer the question that I just asked more precisely.

18     When you say that there was an opinion that the organs of these two

19     armies did not know the situation on the ground very well, and they did

20     not know the status of their own reserves very well, what do you mean by

21     that?

22        A.   Well, you could see from the documents that it was a simple

23     summing up of their own requests, a wish list practically.

24        Q.   Very well.  Go on, what was the procedure when an assessment is

25     received, an opinion?

Page 13977

 1        A.   Well, on a request sometimes several tactical decision-makers

 2     have to state their opinion depending on their responsibilities

 3     concerning various points of the request.  We always wanted everyone to

 4     give us their opinion on the request depending on which sector they were

 5     covering.  Then we worked on it within our office and submitted it to the

 6     Chief of General Staff for him to make a decision.

 7             If he was the one who is supposed to sign it, he would.  And

 8     sometimes he would ask the Supreme Defence Council to give a final answer

 9     to the Army of Republika Srpska or the Army of the Republic of

10     Serbian Krajina.

11        Q.   In practice, while you were Chef de Cabinet, did it ever happen

12     that General Perisic approved something against a negative suggestion of

13     the tactical sector in charge of that area?

14        A.   No, because General Perisic was not aware of the situation in

15     various tactical sectors on each and every issue.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to look at several documents

17     now.  First of all P2733.  This document has several pages.  We'll take

18     it step by step.  First of all, if we could see the lower part of the

19     document, I'm interested in the format.

20        Q.   What type of document is this?

21        A.   This is standard procedure that the office implemented when

22     receiving a request, in this case from the Army of Republika Srpska.

23        Q.   What about this bit below?

24        A.   Since they wanted a self-propelled battery for anti-aircraft

25     defence, we submitted it to the anti-aircraft defence sector.

Page 13978

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the next page, please.

 2        Q.   There's something written here in longhand in the upper right

 3     corner.  If you could read it, what does it say, and if you know, who

 4     wrote this?

 5        A.   I know both.

 6        Q.   Could you tell us?

 7        A.   When it arrived at the desk of the sector in charge, and that was

 8     the administration for anti-aircraft defence, the chief of that

 9     administration, Dusan Banjac, said, "I suggest that it be the

10     self-propelled rocket battery KUB."

11        Q.   And what does it say above?

12        A.   That's the administration for air force and anti-aircraft

13     defence, urgent.  Mr. Vucinic wanted his own administration to urgently

14     provide him with an answer, their position on this request.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, I'd like a Defence exhibit from

16     the 65 ter list, 01074D.  It's the same document we've just seen.  Let's

17     see now the second page, B/C/S and English.

18        Q.   Now, what is this?

19        A.   That's the reply from the sector chief, General Vucinic,

20     assistant for air force and anti-aircraft defence in the General Staff.

21     They are saying that the aircraft defence sector has these two batteries

22     and can make them available but they are putting it to the General Staff

23     to decide, because I know that normally they never made available to

24     third parties complete units and complete establishment assets.

25        Q.   What is the decision of the collegium ultimately?

Page 13979

 1        A.   I know that this did not happen.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I tender this document,

 3     Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 7     Exhibit D482.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have on the screen

10     P2753.  It's also on several pages.  We'll go through it quickly.

11        Q.   What are we looking at now?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we can again see the bottom part

13     of the B/C/S.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a request from General Gvero,

15     who was Assistant Chief of Staff for morale and information in the Army

16     of Republika Srpska, asking for an interview to be granted to their chief

17     with the media.  The office passed this to the administration for morale

18     and information of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   We'll continue with the document, just let me ask you, you said

21     Krivosija?

22        A.   General Krivosija was ordered to settle this with Radio

23     Television Serbia, so the office doesn't have to deal with it anymore.

24     Krivosija was in charge of contacts with Radio Television Serbia which

25     was then managed by Vucelic.  It was not the job of the office to deal

Page 13980

 1     with this anyway.

 2        Q.   Take it slowly.  Who is Vucelic?

 3        A.   General director of Radio Television Serbia, or Radio Television

 4     Belgrade, if you like.

 5        Q.   And who was Krivosija at the time?

 6        A.   He was the president of the military office of the FRY president,

 7     Lilic.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember as this is a document from

 9     August 1995, I will not go into details, but just what it says here.  In

10     the RS, information blockade has been imposed on the members of the VRS.

11     Do you remember what was the occasion for this?

12        A.   It was a conflict between the military and political leaderships

13     of Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please see the fourth page

16     of this document in the B/C/S version.  I'm not sure of the English

17     version, let me just see.  It's the response by General Krivosija.  Here

18     it is on the screen, we can see it now.

19        Q.   Once again the document speaks for itself.  Who would this

20     document be forwarded to?

21        A.   Then one should respond to Gvero, but considering the contents of

22     the document, if there was a response, it would be sent to Gvero.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 3 of

24     this document.  I mean in the B/C/S.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here we see that

Page 13981

 1     General Gvero was informed about the possibilities.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And from the correspondence which we have seen in this document,

 4     what was the position of the General Staff?

 5        A.   This is where the role of the General Staff ends.  We informed

 6     everyone about what was possible and the office of the Chief of

 7     General Staff was not following this anymore.  The procedure had been

 8     completed.

 9        Q.   Did General Perisic take any decision or have any role in the

10     decisions pertaining to these requests?

11        A.   No, he did not play any role in this and he wasn't supposed to.

12        Q.   Do you possibly know whether this was really done later on?  Was

13     there a general -- was there an interview with General Mladic that was

14     broadcast by the RTS?

15        A.   I don't know.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see the next

17     P exhibit -- no, I'm sorry, this is a document from the 65 ter Defence

18     list, 1055D.

19        Q.   Can you please tell us briefly what this document refers to?

20        A.   That is a response of the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska

21     Krajina.  They first asked for concrete elements for blocking roads to be

22     given to them, made of reinforced concrete and also some quantities of

23     mines and explosives that would be used for blocking certain roads in the

24     area of Slavonia and Baranja.  This is the final document in which the

25     office informed the ministry that such reinforced concrete elements were

Page 13982

 1     produced by our military construction institution from Kraljevo which is

 2     a military profit-making institution and could produce these sets for

 3     them at a certain cost, which is mentioned here.  And those who were in

 4     charge were -- had probably assigned a certain number of mines and

 5     explosives to be used for blocking possible access that would be used for

 6     attack against the Army of Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I seek to tender this

 8     document into evidence, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

10     please be given an exhibit number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

12     Exhibit D483.  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please see another

14     document from the Defence 65 ter list, 00847D.

15        Q.   Once again, General, could you please comment on this document.

16        A.   The Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian Krajina requested jet

17     fuel GM-1.  It was a problem for army to this day and we informed them

18     here that the army could not resolve that, that they had to resolve it by

19     requesting from the leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the

20     oil refinery, and other organs to do this.  And they never replied to

21     that and they never even had jet fuel.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I seek to tender this

23     document into evidence as well, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

25     number.

Page 13983

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 2     Exhibit D484.  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see P2746, which

 4     is a Prosecution exhibit.

 5        Q.   I will show you another document and then I will ask you for

 6     additional answers.  What I'm interested in right now is just a form of

 7     this request and what would happen with it.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the bottom of this

 9     document on the screen.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a request we received from

11     the Main Staff and they were asked for contact fuse aerial bombs.  It was

12     immediately sent to the air force and anti-aircraft defence to resolve it

13     and to send feedback to the office.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In the upper part it says:

16             "In order to repossess the lost facilities in the ZOHK," what is

17     that?

18        A.   That's the zone of responsibility of the Herzegovina Corps.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see another

20     document on the screen, namely P951.  Another Prosecution exhibit.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we just repeat the number of the exhibit.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P951.  We can see it on the screen

23     now.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

25        Q.   General, what can we see now?

Page 13984

 1        A.   It is an information that this has been approved of, the

 2     collection of these from the 608th Logistics Base, it's a logistics base

 3     of the Supreme Command.

 4        Q.   I want to ask you the following now:  This was in October 1995,

 5     what do you remember about what was happening at the time in the

 6     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 7        A.   As far as I can remember, the Herzegovina Corps had lost some

 8     positions and wanted to retake them before the cessation of hostilities

 9     would come into place.  This is why they wanted to do it.  But I think

10     that the operational reports contained a description of the entire

11     situation.  I don't remember the details right now.

12        Q.   Were you receiving any information during the war that aerial

13     bombs were used by members of the Army of Republika Srpska in order to

14     target facilities in the city of Sarajevo or against other civilian

15     targets?

16        A.   We never received information that aerial bombs were used in

17     order to attack populated places.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll move to the next document now.

20     It's an exhibit of the Defence, D172.

21        Q.   This is a document from November 1994, and we can see that the

22     Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbian Krajina sent a letter to

23     the Ministry of Defence of FR Yugoslavia requesting certain ammunition.

24     Can you just tell us, these shells which are listed here, were these

25     shells to be used in offensive or defensive operations, if you know?

Page 13985

 1        A.   These are shells for mortars, MB-60 and MB-82, these are the

 2     millimetre calibres, and that's a weapon that the infantry has.

 3        Q.   And it says here that they should be sent without anything being

 4     paid for them?

 5        A.   They are asking for that because one ministry is selling it to

 6     another.  They are selling something that the military production

 7     facilities are making.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see another document.

 9     It's another Prosecution exhibit, P1142.

10        Q.   It says here in this document, a memo from the Ministry of

11     Defence sent to the office of the Chief of the General Staff of the

12     Yugoslav Army and there's something written by hand at the top of the

13     page, and whose handwriting is it?

14        A.   This is the handwriting of General Momcilo Perisic and it says,

15     "Not without the Supreme Defence Council."

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see 1143 -- I

17     apologise, P1143, a Prosecution exhibit.

18        Q.   Can you please comment on this document for us, General?

19        A.   This is a standard document.  It's a response to the office of

20     the federal Ministry of Defence, namely that the chief decided that he

21     would not issue any materiel without the decision of the Supreme Defence

22     Council, and that the minister, because he was a member of Supreme

23     Defence Council, should place this document on the agenda of the

24     Supreme Defence Council.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Slow down, Mr. Borovic, the interpreter was

Page 13986

 1     desperately trying --

 2             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Just to specify something, you said that the minister is a member

 6     of the Supreme Defence Council.  So let me ask you first of all, who

 7     were, as far as remember, the members of the Supreme Defence Council?

 8        A.   The members of the Supreme Defence Council were the president of

 9     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Mr. Zoran Lilic; the president of the

10     Republic of Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic; and the president of the

11     Republic of Montenegro, Momir Bulatovic, and later on he was succeeded by

12     Milo Djukanovic.

13        Q.   As far as you know, who regularly attending the meetings of the

14     Supreme Defence Council?

15        A.   Members regularly attended it as well as the Chief of the

16     General Staff, the chief of the military office and very frequently the

17     federal prime minister, Mr. Kontic.

18        Q.   How about the minister of defence?

19        A.   Yes, the minister of defence as well, he was a member of the

20     Supreme Defence Council, and Mr. Kontic often attended it as well.

21        Q.   Was the minister of defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

22     a member or did he just attend these meetings?

23        A.   The minister was a member of the Supreme Defence Council.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it's time for the break,

25     Your Honours.

Page 13987

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is indeed.  We'll take a break and come back at

 2     quarter to 11.00.  Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter document

 7     02177D.

 8        Q.   General, can you briefly comment on this document?

 9        A.   This is the reply to the General Staff of the RS specifying that

10     the army is unable to deliver the assets they requested.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document into

12     evidence, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

14     number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

16     Exhibit D485.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document --

19             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

21             MR. HARMON:  Just one intervention for purposes of the record.

22     I'm referring to General's answer found at page 29, line 1, where he says

23     this is a reply to the General Staff of the RS.  The face of the document

24     doesn't indicate this is from the RS.  The face of the document reflects

25     this is the Main Staff -- directed to the Main Staff of the Army of the

Page 13988

 1     Serbian Krajina.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for the correction, Mr. Harmon.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Prosecution Exhibit P2726.  I need

 4     the upper part of the document.

 5        Q.   Could we please have that on the screen.  There is a handwritten

 6     note, General, on this document --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 8             MR. HARMON:  I do not have a copy of this document.  It was not

 9     notified to me and I'm wondering if counsel has a copy of an English

10     version of this.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise again if we omitted it

13     from the list.  Unfortunately, I do not have an English copy.  I made

14     copies for myself only, but we have the English translation on the

15     screen.  It is a Prosecution exhibit and I believe Mr. Harmon used it a

16     number of times.  I am being told by Mr. Zorko that it is on the list

17     actually.  The Prosecution was notified.  And we are in the process of

18     printing it out.  The Registrar is doing that and we'll have a copy for

19     Mr. Harmon.

20             MR. HARMON:  Thank you very much.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   The handwritten remark on the document, can you tell us what this

23     says and whose handwriting it is?

24        A.   This is a request of the Main Staff of the VRS to the chief of

25     the General Staff of the VJ.  We see General Perisic's handwriting.  It

Page 13989

 1     says:

 2             "Give it to Ratko to deal with it, Momcilo Perisic."

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to the end of the

 4     document in both versions.  The bottom part.  Could we please zoom in on

 5     the bottom part in the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   Can you read this out?

 7        A.   I already have.

 8        Q.   Who is this document addressed to, as we see in the bottom part?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the right-hand

10     side.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It said before that it should be

12     given to Ratko to deal with it, and we sent it to lieutenant --

13     Colonel-General Ratko Mladenovic [as interpreted] to deal with it, to

14     provide his opinion and this was sent by my deputy, Vlajkovic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We are finished with this

16     document.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we just -- can the record just indicate that

18     it is not Mladenovic.  It is Milovanovic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we next have 65 ter

21     document 10085D [as interpreted].  I notified Mr. Harmon yesterday about

22     my intention to use this document with the witness.  I didn't even show

23     it to the witness during proofing.  I showed him another document and I

24     just wanted to link it up to this one.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Could the counsel please repeat the number.

Page 13990

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  65 ter 01085D.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] General, since you have never seen this document

 3     before, please read it slowly to yourself.  It is document number 04/9-10

 4     of the 4th September 1995.  What is this Silo asset?

 5        A.   It is an anti-aircraft weapon system to engage low-flying

 6     airplanes.  It is a rocket launched from the ground.  It is stated here

 7     that that asset proved inefficient and they wanted to receive better

 8     assets from our command.

 9        Q.   What about the handwritten note, can you tell us what it says and

10     whose handwriting it is?

11        A.   It is the handwriting of the late General Mirko Vucinic, who was

12     assistant to the Chief of the General Staff for the air force and

13     anti-aircraft defence.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have an exhibit

15     number for this document.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

19     Exhibit D486.  Thank you.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Can you tell us what the position was of the commander?

22        A.   The commander of the air force and anti-aircraft defence was of

23     the position that those assets should not be provided.  He invoked a

24     decision of the Chief of the General Staff he refers to in the document.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we next have 65 ter document

Page 13991

 1     01062D.

 2        Q.   A moment ago I stated what the number of the document was in the

 3     previous exhibit, the document number, and in view of that, what can you

 4     tell us about this document, vis-a-vis the previous request we saw?

 5        A.   This is the reply of the office to the Main Staff of the RS.  We

 6     tell them that we were not in a position to secure the requested

 7     anti-aircraft assets.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we also get an exhibit number

 9     for this document, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Its admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

11     number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

13     Exhibit D487.  Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next document is 65 ter number -- it

15     will be the last document about this topic.  The number is 01049D.

16        Q.   General, could you please comment on this document?

17        A.   It is a reply to the request to have flame-throwers issued.  The

18     VJ and our office advised that we were not in a position to send them the

19     requested flame-throwers because even the ones we had did not have

20     ignition cartridges.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document as

22     well, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Its admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

24     number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

Page 13992

 1     Exhibit D488.  Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please now analyse two

 3     Prosecution exhibits next.  It is P2727 to start with.  When analysing

 4     this document, I'd like to go in chronological order.  So let's start

 5     with page 3 in e-court in the Serbian version.  I am just checking

 6     whether it's the same page in the English.  That is not the page.  Yes,

 7     this is it.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The bureau of Republika Srpska,

 9     which was a governmental organ of theirs in Belgrade, they are addressing

10     the federal Ministry of Defence of the FRY, requesting that they be

11     provided with stationary and mobile radio sets as specified further

12     below.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 2 in the B/C/S in

14     e-court.  And we'll be able to locate the English page afterwards.

15     6775ET, that should be the English page.

16        Q.   I'm interested in what this is.  What is this that we see on the

17     screen concerning the request?

18        A.   This is the office of the federal Ministry of Defence, once they

19     had studied the request, they sent it to the office of the Chief of the

20     General Staff.  They forwarded this request for the issue of Motorola

21     stations, radio stations, and an answer was sent to the sector for

22     communications, information technologies, and electronic operations, or

23     actually, it was forwarded to the sector asking for their position.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to page 4 in the English.

25     Actually, it is page 4 in the B/C/S and the English page should be

Page 13993

 1     6778ET.  Sorry, it's actually page 5.  Yes.

 2        Q.   What is this?

 3        A.   This is an answer from the chief of communications sector of

 4     electronic and anti-electronic combat that they are able to provide --

 5     that they agree to purchase a number of Motorolas.

 6        Q.   If somebody wants to purchase this type of Motorola which does

 7     not belong normally in the standard system of the Army of Yugoslavia, why

 8     are they, the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, required to state their

 9     opinion?

10        A.   Motorola devices did not belong in the standard equipment of the

11     Yugoslav People's Army, or the Army of Republika Srpska or the Army of

12     Yugoslavia.  And when it is introduced into the communications system and

13     when communications are established using different technology, the

14     sector in charge must assess how appropriate these devices are and how

15     safe it is to include them in the communications system, the level where

16     these devices can be used, and they are providing a technical opinion

17     whether this fits into the communications system or not.

18        Q.   I meant to ask something slightly different.  When somebody else

19     want to buy Motorolas that don't belong in the standard equipment of the

20     VJ, could it pose a problem to the Army of Yugoslavia?

21        A.   Well, they were not part of system of the Army of Republika

22     Srpska either, but since they were communications between the Army of

23     Republika Srpska and the Army of Yugoslavia using devices made by same

24     producers, they were asking whether this could pose a threat to the

25     communications system of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Page 13994

 1        Q.   It's now complete, I mean your answer on the record.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 1.

 3        Q.   What is this and to whom are you writing?

 4        A.   We are writing to the office of the federal defence minister

 5     saying that our sector in charge of these matters believe that these

 6     devices may be used and then the federal defence ministry is suppose to

 7     present this to the federal minister or the Supreme Defence Council.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll now review another Prosecution

 9     exhibit, P2728.  We could start with page 3 in B/C/S.

10        Q.   Let's begin with the request.  What is being requested, by whom

11     and from whom?

12        A.   The Republika Srpska, the defence ministry, is addressing the

13     defence ministry of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia requesting

14     technical documentation for the production of ammunition for

15     submachine-gun Browning, for a submachine-gun DSK, and 82-millimetre

16     shells with aluminium stabiliser or mines, because that technical

17     documentation was kept by the federal defence ministry of Yugoslavia.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll skip one document because the

19     procedure is similar and let's look at page 4.

20        Q.   What is this?

21        A.   This went to the chief of the technical administration, the

22     logistical sector, General Kodzopeljic, but he answered, it's not in

23     their jurisdiction.  It was the jurisdiction of the sector for research

24     and production of military assets.  This technical documentation was

25     developed by the Military Technical Institute.  His position briefly is

Page 13995

 1     that this documentation may be made available but it's up to the federal

 2     minister to decide.  It's, by the way, a document that should never have

 3     appeared.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now let's move to a Prosecution

 5     exhibit, P720.  I don't know if this is under seal.  These are minutes

 6     from a Supreme Defence Council session.  38th session of the SDC.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were they not under seal or have they been lifted?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm told the seal was removed.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We see that these are the minutes

11     from the 38th session of the Supreme Defence Council held on

12     27 June 1995.  We should move to page 3 in B/C/S and in English.

13        Q.   We should look at item 4, the third entry under item 4.  We see

14     that the president, Zoran Lilic, suggests that three issues be reviewed.

15     And under 2 it says:

16             "Requests from Republika Srpska for assistance in equipping the

17     Special Police Brigade purchasing Motorola radios and obtaining a copy of

18     the technical documentation for the manufacturing of ammunition."  Right?

19        A.   Right.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need the last page in B/C/S

21     and in English with the decisions of the Supreme Defence Council.  I am

22     sorry, we need to see the previous page in English as well.

23        Q.   I'll read item 2:

24             "With regard to the requests received from Republika Srpska, the

25     Supreme Defence Council stands by its earlier decisions."

Page 13996

 1             From these documents we've been looking at recently, the three or

 2     five exhibits, the requests from Republika Srpska, who made the

 3     decisions?  Who had a say in whether they would be granted or not?

 4        A.   The Supreme Defence Council decided and since we see that

 5     Major-General Slavoljub Susic was present, he knew about these decisions

 6     and that's why it says "stands by its earlier decisions."

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I'd like to move to another area.

 8     I am done with the logistics.  Court's indulgence for a moment.

 9        Q.   It's page 36, line 13, in the transcript, you mentioned that

10     decision was signed by General Jugoslav, what is the last name?

11        A.   Kodzopeljic.

12        Q.   To whom was the Technical Military Institute subordinated?

13        A.   To the administration for research, development, and production

14     of military equipment.  It was under the defence ministry, the federal

15     defence ministry.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now call up - moving to

17     another subject - P2751.  These would be documents from the office of the

18     Chief of General Staff.

19        Q.   This is a document that the office of the Chief of the

20     General Staff sent to the military office of the president of Yugoslavia.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's move to the next page.

22        Q.   You've seen this document in proofing, and tell us what this is

23     about.

24        A.   It must be the office of the president of the Federal Republic of

25     Yugoslavia that asked us to produce criteria according which the Ministry

Page 13997

 1     of the Interior of the Republika Srpska was sending volunteers to the

 2     Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Our office tried

 3     using regular channels to obtain these criteria used by the Ministry of

 4     the Interior and we got them.  Here in the subheading it says according

 5     to our unofficial information from employees of the Ministry of the

 6     Interior.  These are the criteria listed here, based on which the

 7     Ministry of the Interior was sending volunteers and natives of Croatia

 8     and Bosnia to the theatre of war.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

10     B/C/S and English.

11             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm a bit confused by the witness's

12     evidence because he refers to volunteers and this document doesn't

13     address the issue of volunteers on its face.  It deals with the sending

14     of military conscripts, not volunteers, so perhaps Mr. Lukic can have the

15     witness direct us to that portion of this document where there's a

16     reference to volunteers.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   First of all, I'll ask the witness if he was the author of this

20     document?

21        A.   I am because I signed it and I sent it.

22        Q.   And now having heard the objection by Mr. Harmon, can you tell us

23     from your memory to whom this document applied?  Why did President Lilic

24     ask you for this information in the first place?

25        A.   I can't remember what exactly was the reason, but I know that at

Page 13998

 1     that time only volunteers were being sent.  The Ministry of the Interior

 2     equipped them, rallied them according to certain criteria.  The army

 3     wasn't involved at the time.  And here in the second part we also

 4     suggested to the federal president that he should present the Ministry of

 5     the Interior with our positions regarding the criteria for sending people

 6     there that had nothing to do with the Army of Yugoslavia.

 7             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I still --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Borovic -- can I just hold you a little bit,

 9     Mr. Harmon.  Mr. Borovic, can you read in the B/C/S the word that

10     connotes "volunteers."  Let the interpreters interpret it to us from this

11     document.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, could you go back to the

13     first page and then I'll see.  I apologise, volunteers are not mentioned

14     here.  There is a reference instead to military conscripts and that's the

15     term used in the document, military conscripts sent to Republika Srpska

16     and the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  And according to their records, the

17     military conscripts were those who originated from Republika Srpska and

18     the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and they made those lists available to

19     the Ministry of the Interior so that the MUP should send these people to

20     Republika Srpska and Republic of Serbian Krajina.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Borovic.  So the document

22     talks about conscripts.  Are you clear, Mr. Harmon?

23             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are welcome.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13999

 1        Q.   Let's just look at the final part of this document, bearing in

 2     mind this is a proposal from the General Staff of the VJ.  And my

 3     question is:  Do you recall that the MUP rallied military conscripts from

 4     Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina by force and

 5     returned them to their republics to training centres?  Do you remember

 6     some scandals involving that?

 7        A.   I don't recall anything officially, but from everything we

 8     discussed, yes, there were stories like that going around.

 9        Q.   Now, your suggestions here that you sent to the office of the

10     supreme commander, how were they motivated?

11        A.   We sent a supplement to these criteria saying that the MUP should

12     not send military conscripts and non-commissioned officers who had an

13     obligation to the Army of Yugoslavia and belonged to the VJ

14     establishment, although they were military conscripts elsewhere because

15     it would disrupt the combat readiness of the Army of Yugoslavia.  And we

16     also included in our proposal more humane treatment of family members,

17     et cetera.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P2729.

19        Q.   General, just briefly about this document, are you aware that any

20     volunteers headed by Colonel Trkulja were sent as well as a battalion by

21     the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army?  Did the Yugoslav Army

22     General Staff act in accordance with this?

23        A.   I don't know that it did and if such a unit with such a number of

24     men was indeed sent there.

25        Q.   If such a unit with such a number of men was sent there, would

Page 14000

 1     you have had to be informed about it as Chef de Cabinet?

 2        A.   I wouldn't have had to be informed but through the office we

 3     would have arrived -- we would have received some sort of information

 4     that the unit arrive there, that it was deployed, so there would have to

 5     be final documents suggesting that this was indeed implemented.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I will move to a different topic now.  Do you know

 7     whether the Yugoslav Army sent fuel to the Army of Republika Srpska and

 8     the Serbian Army of Krajina, fuel from its depots?

 9        A.   Supplying the Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of Republic

10     of Serbian Krajina with fuel in an organised manner was not something

11     that was carried out.  It's possible that there may have been certain

12     fuel trucks that were sent there because the levels of fuel were critical

13     even within Yugoslavia and some quantities were also taken from us to be

14     used in the agricultural works, so that we were also short of fuel.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see on the screen

16     document P1178.

17        Q.   What can we see here?  What is this document about?

18        A.   This document, signed by the previous Chef de Cabinet from whom I

19     had taken over the duty, says that people coming officially from

20     Republika Srpska could fill their tanks at certain gas station, 25 litres

21     of fuel for persons who had arrived to the Republic of Serbia on duty.

22        Q.   Whose petrol stations were these?

23        A.   Well, as soon as this was issued it means that it referred to a

24     petrol station of the Yugoslav Army.

25        Q.   Were these petrol stations of the Yugoslav Army used to issue

Page 14001

 1     fuel for military needs in addition to tanks being filled on an

 2     individual basis as set out in this document?

 3        A.   No.  Fuel for military needs would not be sent for such petrol

 4     stations.  It was just -- they were just used to fill the tanks of

 5     vehicles that were passing through.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see P2519,

 8     another Prosecution exhibit.

 9        Q.   We can see this is another memo from the Army of Republika

10     Srpska.  Something is handwritten in the upper right-hand corner, can you

11     tell us what it is and whose handwriting it is?

12        A.   This is a request that two officers from the intelligence

13     administration --

14             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  The question has not been

15     answered.  It's non-responsive.  He was asked a question as to

16     identifying the handwriting and he is not answering the question.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Harmon is too fast

18     now.  I think the witness is providing this as an introduction for his

19     answer.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that it says here

21     Krga.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It does, we do understand that you do want to give

23     an introduction, Mr. Borovic, but this is something that this Chamber has

24     been raising with many witnesses.  It would be very helpful if you could

25     listen very carefully to the question and answer directly the question.

Page 14002

 1     If any background information is necessary, you will be asked to provide

 2     it.  But try to, if you are asked whose handwriting this is, just tell us

 3     whose handwriting it is.  We can see the document and read what this

 4     document is all about, so I urge you to try and be concise.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   General, will you please answer the question, whose handwriting

 7     is this in the upper right-hand side corner?

 8        A.   This is General Perisic's handwriting and it says there "Krga

 9     proposal but after discussion with them."

10        Q.   What does that mean?  What was Krga's task judging by this

11     document, and what does it mean after a discussion with him?

12        A.   It means that Krga should not send them or write a proposal for

13     the chief to send them, but first conduct an official interview with

14     them, see whether they accept to be sent to carry out such a task, and

15     then after that, submit a proposal to the Chief of General Staff.  And

16     this is what we wrote down below, to the 2nd administration, we submit a

17     telegram and so on, just as it says.

18        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Were you aware whether such persons were

19     sent there at the request of the Army of Republika Srpska if they did not

20     wish to go?

21        A.   No one was sent by force if they did not accept this sort of

22     task.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now we'll go back to the chronology of events and the

24     context.  General, do you know anything about people from the area of

25     Zepa swimming across the Drina River in early August 1995, and if so,

Page 14003

 1     what do you know about this?

 2        A.   It is well known that the border units of the Uzice Corps

 3     reported during the night several hundred Muslim refugees had swam over

 4     the Drina River and crossed over to our side, that the border units

 5     received them and General Disovic informed the Chief of General Staff

 6     about the incident.

 7        Q.   Do you know what the Chief of General Staff did then in

 8     connection with that?  What was his reaction like?

 9        A.   The reaction of the Chief of General Staff was that they should

10     be received, that they should be accommodated at reception centres, that

11     they should be registered, and after talking about this with

12     President Milosevic, that they should then be handed over to the

13     Ministry of the Interior who would go on securing them.

14        Q.   Do you know why General Perisic talked to President Milosevic in

15     connection with this?

16        A.   Well, the Ministry of the Interior is not subordinated to the

17     Yugoslav Army, and the Chief of General Staff informed the president of

18     the republic that this is a task that should be taken over by the

19     Ministry of the Interior and the president probably then ordered the

20     minister of the interior who was competent.  I think this was the normal

21     avenue to be taken.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see the 65 ter

23     Defence document 00388D.  First 00543D, please.

24        Q.   We can see that the date is the 1st of August, 1995 and we also

25     see that General Perisic addressed this to Ratko, to General Mladic

Page 14004

 1     personally it says, and enclosed are two letters.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have on the

 3     screen because it's not attached to this document, 65 ter -- I would wait

 4     and then seek to tender this document into evidence together with another

 5     one that I'd like us to see.  That's 388D from the 65 ter list.

 6             This is a letter addressed to Alija Izetbegovic.  Could we please

 7     see the last page of this document in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Who signed this document and on which date?

 9        A.   This document was signed by President Slobodan Milosevic on the

10     1st of August, 1995.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now move back to the first

12     page, please.

13        Q.   The document begins with the words:

14             "Today, several hundreds of your soldiers fled to the territory

15     of Serbia in order to seek refuge from the ravages of war.  This is the

16     reason I'm writing this letter to you."

17             And then the letter follows.  It speaks for itself.

18             I would just ask you to comment on one section.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's on the following page in B/C/S.

20     I can see that the English copy does not include a translation of the

21     entire document, Your Honours, but just the first page.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you propose to do?

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would propose that we put the B/C/S

24     version on the ELMO -- oh, it seems we do have it.  There it is.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, that is the second page in

Page 14005

 1     English translation.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you please comment on the first paragraph, General.  It's

 5     early August 1995, were you aware of the position?

 6        A.   I was aware of the position taken by President Milosevic and also

 7     of our position.  Both letters proposed that peace should be established

 8     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that the war be stopped, and the first memo that

 9     you showed was General Perisic's cover letter.  He sent these two letters

10     as enclosures to General Mladic and asked him to accept a peaceful

11     solution and give some statement about that.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would suggest that both these

13     documents be tendered as part of one exhibit number but I see that the

14     Registrar is not too happy about this.  Then I would suggest that they be

15     tendered as two separate documents with two separate exhibit numbers.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  0543D is admitted in evidence.  May it please be

17     given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that shall be Exhibit D489.  Thank

19     you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And 0388D is also admitted.  May it also be given

21     an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  This one shall be assigned Exhibit D490.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 14006

 1        Q.   Do you remember whether there were any problems with the

 2     Ukrainian battalion in Zepa at the time?

 3        A.   I remember that after the operation around Srebrenica, the

 4     Serbian forces had focused on Zepa and there were some problems with an

 5     UNPROFOR unit there.  It was a Ukrainian company which was blocked.  I

 6     remember that our position was that protected UN areas should not be

 7     attacked because this would not be well received.  And there was a tense

 8     situation with this one Ukrainian company from the Ukrainian battalion in

 9     Zepa.

10        Q.   Just to clarify something for the record, when you say that the

11     Serbian forces focused on Zepa, which Serbian forces do you have in mind?

12        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska, that's what I had in mind.

13        Q.   Let me ask you something about Operation Storm, when the Croatian

14     army attacked the RSK around this time in early August 1995.  What did

15     you hear about that and what was the initial information you received and

16     from whom?

17        A.   I spent that whole day and night in the office receiving

18     information from all of those I was in communication with, different

19     administration organs and communications centre.  On two occasions I even

20     spoke to General Mile Mrksic when he submitted his reports on the events.

21        Q.   We know about those events and I won't dwell on it too much.  I

22     just wanted to ask you something about what happened in Operation Storm;

23     in other words, what consequences were there as a result of that for the

24     FRY?

25        A.   The security situation suddenly grew much more complex for the

Page 14007

 1     FRY.  When the western part of the RSK fell, the Croatian army had only

 2     parts of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja to take.  We knew that they had

 3     such forces at their disposal that they can easily deal with that area by

 4     military means to eventually finally reach the borders of the FRY.

 5             It was also possible that the combat would spill over into our

 6     territory.  There was a separate problem because the Danube river was not

 7     the border itself.  It was still on Croatian territory and it was very

 8     unfavourable for us if the Croatian army crossed the river and set up

 9     check-points on the other side.  This presented a number of problems for

10     the FRY.

11        Q.   You referred to the meeting with the military leadership of

12     Russia and with Mr. Kozyrev.  You also said that he asked you about the

13     position of the VJ, about any attacks on the RSK.  In view of the latest

14     developments at that time, did that change the position of the VJ about

15     its decision to join in the conflict or not?

16        A.   The position of the VJ did not change.  It did not want to take

17     part in any conflicts outside the territory of the FRY in any way.  As

18     you said, we stated that position to Prime Minister Kozyrev and to

19     Minister Grachev.

20        Q.   I think you explained that yesterday.  Operation Storm and its

21     consequences, did this present any danger internally for the FRY?

22        A.   Yes.  The internal political struggle for power also shifted gear

23     in the FRY.  The then opposition and its leaders immediately declared it

24     a betrayal of the Serb people accusing the regime of insufficient

25     assistance.  There was also information that the refugees would cause

Page 14008

 1     trouble in Belgrade because of that.

 2        Q.   What refugees?

 3        A.   From the RSK.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter document

 5     00603D.

 6        Q.   I believe you are familiar with this document, General?

 7        A.   Yes, I am.  It came from the office of the Chief of the General

 8     Staff.  It summarises conclusions of the situation as well as evaluation

 9     and recommendations referring to early August 1995.

10        Q.   Did you participate in the drafting of the document, if you

11     remember?

12        A.   I did, Mr. Lukic.

13        Q.   Let's look at a number of sentences.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Towards the bottom of page 1, could

15     we please see that in both versions.

16        Q.   Just below 1 it says:

17             "The priority line of engagement in the subsequent period may be

18     Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srijem.  Without direct support on

19     the part of the VJ, the 11th Corps of the SVK with their weak morale will

20     be unable to defend itself.  Did the RSK exist at this point in time as a

21     state, let's put it that way?

22        A.   The leadership fled --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we turn the English page, please, so that we

24     are --

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, let's have the next

Page 14009

 1     page.

 2        Q.   Go on, what happened with the leadership?

 3        A.   The leadership of the RSK fled partly to the RS, partly to

 4     Belgrade.  They considered themselves to be a government in exile which

 5     no longer functioned and had no influence over the course of events.  And

 6     it was our assessment, as I said a moment ago, that Croatia now had three

 7     forces at its disposal to zero in on Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and

 8     Western Srijem.  It was our view that the 11th Corps would be unable to

 9     sustain such an attack without our assistance and that a political

10     situation needs to be found to peacefully reintegrate that area.  And we

11     also concluded that our assistance was impossible.

12        Q.   What about the Main Staff of the RSK, did it exist at that point

13     in time?

14        A.   No, there was no staff.  There was only the commander of this

15     corps and the staff was withdrawing together with the army and they were

16     somewhere in the RS, I believe, when we created this assessment.

17        Q.   Let's clarify this last answer of yours.  Without direct support

18     of the VJ, they will be unable to defend themselves.  However, a moment

19     ago you said that the position of the VJ was not to take part in the

20     conflict.  In this assessment of yours, what was exactly your position as

21     the office?

22        A.   The office and the Chief of the General Staff were of the

23     position that there was a possibility that the state leadership would

24     eventually decide to assist Western Slavonia, Baranja -- Eastern

25     Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srijem.  We did not want to go into war but

Page 14010

 1     if the government ordered us to do so, then that would be a different

 2     situation.  It was our view, in any case, that it shouldn't be done.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 2 in the B/C/S, please.  And we

 4     should remain in this part in English.

 5        Q.   It says:  "Impact of the Situation on the Security of the Fry."

 6     I'm interested in the second and third paragraphs.  "Should the

 7     operations," et cetera.

 8        A.   Yes, should the operations spread to Eastern Slavonia, Western

 9     Srijem and Baranja, we would have direct contact with the Croatian army.

10     And if the situation in Dubrovnik and Prevlaka, which was then part of

11     the FRY in Montenegro, changes in the sense that there would be attempts

12     by the Croatian army to seize Prevlaka, we would have a threat to our

13     security.  Therefore, in view of all those events which were near our

14     territory we saw it as a direct threat.  There was also mention made of

15     the historical borders of Croatia which was up to Zemun, close to

16     Belgrade.  Therefore, we assessed that we needed to reinforce our forces

17     along the Danube.  Otherwise, there was always a danger of the Croatian

18     army intending to proceed to reach their historical borders in Zemun and

19     Vojvodina.

20        Q.   Just to clarify for the Chamber, Zemun and Vojvodina, parts of

21     what state were they?

22        A.   Of Serbia.  Zemun is actually a suburb of Belgrade.

23        Q.   You put forth some propositions, they speak for themselves.  As

24     for the proposal number 1, who needs to declare an immediate -- state of

25     an immediate threat of war?

Page 14011

 1        A.   The federal Assembly following a proposal by the federal

 2     government.

 3        Q.   Was it declared at the time?

 4        A.   The proposals of the General Staff were not accepted.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I seek to tender this

 6     document, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 8     please be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

10     Exhibit D491.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We saw that this document was dated

13     the 8th of August and the next document will be around that time as well.

14     It is P2743.  It is a Prosecution exhibit.

15        Q.   This is another office document sent to --

16        A.   To the military office of the Yugoslav president because the

17     delegation of the patriarchs of the church --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Delegation of the

19     church was received by the office.

20             Interpreter's note:  Could the last question and answer be

21     repeated, please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Lukic.  The interpreters ask that the

23     last part of the question be repeated.  They didn't hear you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could you please repeat who was in the delegation of the Serb

Page 14012

 1     Orthodox church?

 2        A.   Patriarch Pavle and --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the names be

 4     repeated, please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Borovic, could you repeat the names, please.

 6     Patriarch Pavle?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mitropolit Amfilohije Radovic.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The stenographer is having difficulty.  Can we

 9     spell them, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Amfilohije Radovic.  You probably

11     have the names in the translation.  And Irinej Bulovic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The name is slightly different but

13     we'll see the names in the translation after the break because we have

14     all the participants listed.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And is that it?  We'll take a break and come back

16     at half past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] General, before we move to the document, we are

22     now in the summer of 1995, August, as it says in this memo.  At that time

23     do you remember Patriarch Pavle, how much influence he wielded among the

24     Serbian people?

25        A.   The influence of Patriarch Pavle on the Serbian people and the

Page 14013

 1     leadership in Republika Srpska is difficult to overestimate, but he had

 2     less influence on the leading and governing structures in the Republic of

 3     Serbia.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  What the witness said at the end is not clear.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreter said --

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Could you please clarify what you said at the end?

 8        A.   The patriarch had great influence among the people, both in the

 9     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska.  He also had great

10     influence on the leadership of Republika Srpska.  In the Republic of

11     Serbia, the patriarch had greater influence among the leaders of the

12     opposition than the party in power and the government, and that worried

13     the patriarch.

14        Q.   What kind of influence did he have on the Army of Republika

15     Srpska?

16        A.   I have no idea.  All I know is that everyone held the patriarch

17     in great respect and the Army of Republika Srpska tended to be more

18     religious than army people in the Republic of Serbia.

19        Q.   What was at this time the position of the Army of Yugoslavia

20     regarding the influence of the church and the personal influence of

21     Patriarch Pavle?

22        A.   The General Staff, the office of the General Staff, and the

23     leadership of the army had a great respect for the patriarch.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now place on the screen

25     P2743, page 2 in B/C/S, the same document we looked at before.  I think

Page 14014

 1     it's also page 2 in English.

 2        Q.   For the record, we can see who attended in the first paragraph,

 3     who was there next to Patriarch Pavle --

 4        A.   Amfilohije Radovic and another clerk of Nis, I think his last

 5     name is Bulovic.

 6        Q.   We also see that you were there and so was Major-General

 7     Krivosija who at that time was what?

 8        A.   Major-General Krivosija was the head of the military office of

 9     the president of Yugoslavia.

10        Q.   Look at what the record says.  It says at that time he was chief

11     of the information administration.

12        A.   He may have been.  I don't know when he switched posts exactly

13     but his longest tenure was as head of the military office.  We all

14     changed positions.

15        Q.   This document records quite a long contribution of

16     General Perisic.  It actually gives almost a verbatim account of his

17     contribution.  And we also see the delegation of the Orthodox church

18     displayed its interest in the reasons for the collapse of the Army of the

19     Republic of Serbian Krajina and the situation in Republika Srpska, and

20     then General Perisic speaks.

21             In what context does Perisic discuss the humanitarian aid and

22     other assistance to Republika Srpska?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't see what Mr. Perisic is discussing on

24     this page.  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

Page 14015

 1        Q.   Go ahead, General, or shall I repeat my question?

 2        A.   Repeat it, please.

 3        Q.   In what context does General Perisic discuss humanitarian and

 4     military assistance to the Army of Republika Srpska and to the Serbian

 5     people?  And what was the meaning of what he said on this occasion to the

 6     patriarch?

 7        A.   It was on a note of consolation and comforting the patriarch,

 8     rather than doing anything real.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the bottom of this

10     document, the last two paragraphs.  The end of this document.

11        Q.   Since you were present at the meeting, tell us about the last

12     portions of this text, General Perisic promised to do everything in his

13     power to continue to help the Serbian people, et cetera.  What was the

14     context?

15        A.   Well, General Perisic said he would do everything in his power,

16     but not much was in his power by that time.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I'd now like to move to a different subject and we

18     are following the chronology still.

19             Do you remember if you had any meetings in August 1995 with

20     General Wesley Clark, and if you did, could you describe it?

21        A.   We first met General Wesley Clark and his associates at that time

22     at his own request on the premises of the General Staff.

23        Q.   He was visiting the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as part of

24     what delegation?

25        A.   I remember it was actually a visit by Mr. Holbrooke on a

Page 14016

 1     political level, but we were only visited by a military delegation headed

 2     by General Wesley Clark.

 3        Q.   What was his position at the time?

 4        A.   He was NATO commander for Europe.

 5        Q.   Now, can you remember what was discussed at that meeting?

 6        A.   General Wesley Clark described future plans for the deployment of

 7     NATO forces and peacekeeping forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He

 8     described briefly the peacekeeping plans.  He wanted to conduct this

 9     operation safely without any disruption.  He asked for an evaluation by

10     General Perisic and the General Staff.  He wanted to know what our

11     position was vis-a-vis the deployment of their forces, and like any

12     general would, he asked for co-operation, for our co-operation because we

13     were going to be two armies side by side.

14             He did it in a gentlemanly manner, very professionally.  He

15     described the situation and he asked us for our views and he asked what

16     the General Staff could do to avoid them any problems in Bosnia and he

17     received all the answers.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just get clarification.  Sir, the record

19     says:  "He wanted to know what our position was vis-a-vis the deployment

20     of their forces, and like any general would, he asked for co-operation,

21     for our co-operation because we were going to be two armies side by

22     side."

23             Which is this army, is this the VJ army that was going to be side

24     by side with them?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said we were going to be two

Page 14017

 1     armies side by side.  His force would arrive and then would be a

 2     neighbouring force.  He wanted to hear our views as to whether we support

 3     their mission and the arrival of their forces.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  My question is:  Was the VJ going to be

 5     side by side with them in the Republika Srpska for peacekeeping purposes?

 6     Is that what you are saying?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I was trying to say.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And did the VJ go to the Republika Srpska to go

 9     and keep peace with the NATO forces?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, these were two

11     neighbouring armies.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So what role was the VJ going to be playing in

13     this peacekeeping process from within Serbia?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Like nowadays with NATO forces, it

15     was supposed to be an exchange of information, and refraining from

16     disruption, perhaps also exerting influence on the leadership of

17     Republika Srpska to stop them from disrupting this mission.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Let us explore this in more detail.  When you said a moment ago

21     in response to my question, page 58, line 2, could the VJ have an impact

22     on any problems in Bosnia, what problems was General Wesley Clark

23     expecting with the deployment of NATO forces?  What was he worried about?

24        A.   He was concerned that the leadership of the Bosnian Serbs would

25     not accept these forces as peacekeepers and that there could be

Page 14018

 1     incidents.  And specifically, he wanted to know whether General Perisic

 2     had enough influence to prevent this from happening.

 3        Q.   Do you remember what exactly General Wesley Clark asked, did

 4     General Perisic have any influence over whom?

 5        A.   On the Army of Republika Srpska and General Mladic.  He always

 6     spoke about commanders.

 7        Q.   First of all, what was the general attitude of the VJ, the

 8     General Staff, and the Chief of the General Staff to the deployment of

 9     NATO and peacekeeping forces?

10        A.   The Army of Yugoslavia wanted the war to end, peace to be

11     restored, and peacekeeping forces to come, forces capable of keeping

12     peace in that area.  It had a positive attitude to that mission.

13        Q.   Do you remember what General Perisic answered General

14     Wesley Clark regarding his influence over the VRS and General Mladic

15     specifically?

16        A.   He stated things exactly as they were.  He was not able to

17     control General Mladic in any way.  He could kindly ask, write requests,

18     plead, but no more than that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  What were the relations between the leadership of FRY

20     and the leadership of Republika Srpska and the two military leaderships,

21     generally speaking, at this time?

22        A.   The relations were significantly disrupted and that was the

23     substance of patriarch's visit.  He was asking for some possible minimum

24     to be established.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll move to another subject.  So if

Page 14019

 1     we could please see P232 on the screen, we will talk again about the

 2     chronology of events.

 3        Q.   This is a note from a meeting of the highest political and

 4     military leadership representatives of the FRY and Republika Srpska held

 5     on the 29th of August, 1995, in Dobanovci.  We see below that who the

 6     participants were in these talks.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show the bottom of

 8     the screen in the English version as well so the Trial Chamber could see

 9     who all the people present were.  And perhaps if we could turn to the

10     second page in English, please.  No, I'm sorry, I think I wanted the

11     previous page.

12        Q.   In B/C/S, you can see that Patriarch Pavle was also one of the

13     participants and Bishop Irinej Bulovic.  I wanted to point this out to

14     the Trial Chamber.

15             So let me ask you the following:  Firstly, from you present at

16     this meeting?

17        A.   No, I did not attend this meeting.

18        Q.   Do you remember this meeting by anything, and if so, by what?

19        A.   I remember it by the preparations for the meeting because it was

20     held in Dobanovci and that was something that we were responsible for.

21     That's first.  Then I also remember it because on that day we received

22     from our intelligence administration the information that the NATO forces

23     would carry out air attacks against the forces of Republika Srpska unless

24     they pulled out heavy weapons from the Sarajevo area.

25        Q.   Just a second.

Page 14020

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at page 10 in

 2     B/C/S and page 12 in the English version.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 4             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, the witness wasn't present at this

 5     meeting.  I think he is now going to be testifying about the contents of

 6     this meeting to which I object.  There's been no connection to the

 7     attendance of this witness to this meeting.  He was -- he said he was not

 8     present.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I still haven't asked my follow-up

11     question, and as there were several subjects discussed at this meeting --

12     but let me continue with my questions and then I will ask the witness for

13     a comment.

14        Q.   But first of all, let us have the witness tell us what he knows

15     about this event.

16        A.   When I received the information at the office --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Lukic.  You see whenever there is an

18     objection, the Chamber must rule before you can go to the witness.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the time being, I will not

20     present the specific page, the minutes from this events, from this

21     document and then I will ask again --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are talking at cross purposes.  I say when

23     there is an objection, you have got to wait for the Chamber to rule

24     before you go to the witness.

25             Mr. Harmon, you objected to something that had not happened yet,

Page 14021

 1     so you are going to be overruled at this point.

 2             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Borovic, what was going on?

 5        A.   When I received the information from the 2nd intelligence

 6     administration, as I said, I immediately went to Dobanovci.  It's

 7     possible that General Krga also came there, but I do not remember that.

 8     In any case, I knocked and I entered the room where the meeting was held

 9     and I submitted information to the chief of the military office so that

10     he would inform the participants of the meeting about it.

11             I remained in the building but I did not attend the meeting.

12        Q.   Did you hear later on what General Mladic's reaction to this

13     information was in case the information reached him?

14        A.   Later on I heard from General Perisic that he did not believe

15     this information.

16        Q.   When you say "he" who do you mean?

17        A.   I mean General Mladic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would ask if we could have a

19     look at page 11 in the B/C/S version, so I will skip the previous

20     section, and the appropriate corresponding page should be page 12 in the

21     English version.  No, page 13.  And if we could please pull it up so that

22     I could check whether the English version corresponds to the B/C/S

23     original.  No, it's the previous page, I apologise.  The previous page in

24     English.  Can we please show the next page in English.  That's right.

25        Q.   And the paragraph that I wish to direct the witness's attention

Page 14022

 1     to is the penultimate paragraph.  It says here:

 2             "General Mladic does not agree with the proposal to withdraw

 3     artillery from the accesses to Sarajevo, saying that 'the blood that the

 4     Serbian soldiers shed must be respected.'"

 5             Do you remember who requested at the time that heavy artillery be

 6     pulled out from the Sarajevo area?

 7        A.   I got an information from the 2nd administration, I don't

 8     remember who asked for it, or perhaps it was requested much earlier but

 9     then there was an ultimate issued that this had to be done or otherwise

10     they would be bombed.

11        Q.   What was the position of the leadership of the FRY and General

12     Perisic vis-a-vis this request and this ultimatum, do you remember that?

13        A.   I don't remember about the ultimatum because I was no longer

14     there.  But as for the requests to pull out heavy artillery from area

15     around Sarajevo, General Perisic pleaded, and everybody else did, that

16     this be done but it was not honoured.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now please see a

18     document from the Defence 65 ter list, 01073D.

19        Q.   In fact, that is a document judging by the date and

20     chronologically speaking dating from the following day, it's a memo from

21     General Ratko Mladic, where he is sending a letter to General Perisic and

22     he says at the beginning on the 30th of August, 1995, at around 02 hours,

23     the NATO forces acted without any justification and so on, they began the

24     air attacks.  And then the text follows.

25             In comparison to the information that you brought to Dobanovci,

Page 14023

 1     what in your view happened on the following day?

 2        A.   Well, the information turned out to be true.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  In respect of this

 4     document, I would ask that a foundation be laid, proper foundation be

 5     laid with respect to this document.  There's -- this witness is now

 6     testifying about, he has seen this document, there's no information that

 7     it was received by the General Staff, received by his department, and I

 8     would ask that a foundation be laid before the witness testifies about

 9     this document.  If Mr. Lukic want to ask him about events, there's no

10     reason to show him the document.  He can ask him about particular events.

11     But having showed him this document and -- I would ask that a proper

12     foundation be laid for it.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm following the chronology.  The

15     following document establishes the connection between this document and

16     this witness, and Mr. Harmon is aware of this document because I put it

17     on the list.  But in order to present the following document, I have to

18     show this one first.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, what has to be done usually is any

20     document that you are going to show to a witness, you lay a foundation

21     for it.  You don't say the foundation for this document will be laid by

22     the next document.  First, before you even show him the document you have

23     got to lay a foundation for it.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Borovic, are you familiar with this document?

Page 14024

 1        A.   We received it at the office and ...

 2        Q.   What did you do in connection with it?

 3        A.   We prepared an extract from this document and we informed the

 4     president of FRY, or the president of the Republic of Serbia, I don't

 5     remember exactly, with it, but we made an extract from this document and

 6     we drafted a document of the office by which we informed the leadership

 7     about the contents of it.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Before I seek to tender this

 9     document into evidence, I will ask for another document to be shown on

10     the screen, and I believe that I did establish the connection between

11     this witness and this particular document.

12             Could we now please see 65 ter 01048D.

13        Q.   General, will you please tell us what this document represents?

14        A.   Well, we made an extract of the main points from the previous

15     document so that the Chief of General Staff, Momcilo Perisic, would

16     inform the president of the Republic of Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic.  The

17     General signed it and I signed below that it could be encrypted and sent

18     in the form of a telegram to the president, because that was the way it

19     went.  The signed documents would be filed and the one to be encrypted

20     was then signed by Chef de Cabinet and it was then forwarded to the

21     president.

22        Q.   Why was an extract made?  Why was only one paragraph of the

23     previous letter submitted to President Milosevic?

24        A.   Well, we always did what was known to the chief.  We just

25     extracted the segment that was important.  We would not just copy the

Page 14025

 1     entire document.

 2        Q.   From the correspondence which you had with the president of the

 3     Republic of Serbia, what do you remember, did he like to have and receive

 4     lengthy detailed documents or just essential information?

 5        A.   President Milosevic only requested us to send brief documents or

 6     just bullet points about certain issues.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would seek to tender both of these

 8     documents into evidence, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  1073D is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

10     given an exhibit number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document shall be assigned

12     Exhibit D492.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And 01048D is also admitted.  May it also be given

14     an exhibit number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

16     Exhibit D493.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will move to another topic now.

19     And if we could please see 65 ter 88 -- pardon, 00885D.

20        Q.   Yesterday we talked about formation and establishment of the

21     Yugoslav Army.  So vis-a-vis the establishment post of generals, were

22     they all filled up in the Yugoslav Army in 1994, 1995 and 1996?

23        A.   They were because these posts are always filled up.

24        Q.   What was General Perisic's position as regards the appointment of

25     any general from the Army of Republika Srpska or the Army of the Republic

Page 14026

 1     of Serbian Krajina to duties within the Yugoslav Army?

 2        A.   The position was that such persons should not be appointed to the

 3     establishment posts of generals in the Yugoslav Army.

 4        Q.   Why?

 5        A.   That issue would require a lengthy answer because, first of all,

 6     the units and institutions of the Yugoslav Army did not accept such

 7     persons being appointed their heads.  And then this implied that the

 8     generals we already had should be replaced or transferred in order to

 9     appoint others, which was also not all right.

10        Q.   This is a document from the personnel administration of the

11     Yugoslav Army General Staff, and what does this document discuss?

12        A.   The document specifies what establishment posts were at general

13     level within the Army of Yugoslavia.

14        Q.   And we have certain establishment units here specified?

15        A.   Yes, and all duties that are to be occupied by personnel at the

16     rank of general.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

20     an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

22     Exhibit D494.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll move on to another topic.  Just

25     a moment, please.

Page 14027

 1        Q.   A moment ago we discussed Operation Storm and its consequences.

 2     We saw certain security assessments concerning the 11th Corps of the army

 3     of the RSK.  In that period, the fall of 1995, militarily speaking in

 4     terms of the area controlled by the 11th Corps, how was -- how important

 5     was it for the security of the FRY?

 6        A.   It was very important for the security of the FRY.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P2750.

 8        Q.   It is a request of the command of the 11th Corps, dated

 9     2 November 1995 concerning 10.000 anti-tank mines and

10     8.000 anti-personnel mines.  Without going into details but I believe

11     this document follows the similar procedure to the one you've described?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   What was specific about the territory that was covered by the

14     11th Corps?

15        A.   It -- these are flatlands in a slight depression and, as such,

16     within the range of two-thirds of Croatian army artillery.  Without any

17     further fortifications, it cannot be successfully defended.

18        Q.   The assets requested, are these to be used for offensive or

19     defensive purposes?

20        A.   Well, anti-tank mines are used to seal off axes, and

21     anti-personnel mines prevent infantry from entering an area.  These are

22     not offensive assets.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask for a Prosecution

24     exhibit.  It is P2707.  Could we first go to page 3 in the B/C/S on the

25     screen, please, to approach this chronologically.  Now, could we please

Page 14028

 1     zoom in on the left-hand side of the B/C/S.  There is an annotation, a

 2     handwritten note that I'd like to see.  Could we please go up the page.

 3     Yes.

 4        Q.   General, can you see what it says?

 5        A.   Yes, I can.  This is my handwriting.  It says:

 6             "Submit a report on fatalities in the last ten days."

 7        Q.   Why was it important for the General Staff of the VJ to know how

 8     many fatalities there were in the area protected by the 11th Corps?

 9        A.   Any event that would be deemed out of the ordinary in the area of

10     the 11th Corps could have negative consequences for the army.  This could

11     cause a number of deserters or terrorist activities, et cetera.  And

12     whenever there was something going on, we asked for a report so that we

13     would be familiar with the situation.  The most important thing for us

14     was that their area be stable without any incidents.

15        Q.   That is my next question.  Why was it important for you that the

16     situation there is stable?

17        A.   Any incident, anything out of the ordinary disrupts the life of

18     civilians and the army and this can always lead in a potential way of

19     refugees or deserters, and in such a way people with arms could be

20     introduced into the FRY.  It's always important to have a quiet, stable

21     area.

22        Q.   What was information at the time about the morale of the members

23     of the 11th Corps following Operation Storm and their willingness to

24     engage?

25        A.   Our information was that their morale and combat readiness was

Page 14029

 1     poor and in military terms they were unable to survive.  That is why so

 2     much stress was put on peaceful re-integration.

 3        Q.   Did you have occasion to meet with General Jacques Klein?

 4        A.   I met Mr. Jacques Klein twice in the General Staff.  I didn't

 5     even know he was a general.  I always thought he was civilian, he was

 6     always in civilian clothes.

 7        Q.   In his previous life he had been a general of the American army.

 8     In what context did you meet with him?  What was his position at the

 9     time?

10        A.   He was a UN envoy in charge of Slavonia and Baranja.  I don't

11     know what his title was precisely.  He came to us to inform us and that

12     we express our position vis-a-vis the peaceful re-integration of Slavonia

13     Baranja back into the Croatian system.  We all wanted to see it be done

14     peacefully and we had a number of issues to discuss, such as the fate of

15     the Serbian people there.  However, on these two occasions, that was not

16     the topic of his visit.

17        Q.   What did you know about the amount of weapons, ammunition, and

18     soldiers in the area of the 11th Corps in the fall of 1995 and in 1996?

19        A.   I don't know whether I can answer that question other than by

20     saying that their forces were equal to the size of a corps in terms of

21     weapons.  Perhaps they may have been a been short on soldiers, but the

22     rest is it.

23        Q.   At some point the area of Eastern Slavonia was reintegrated into

24     the Croatian system of government during 1996, I believe.  During the

25     process of demilitarisation of the 11th Corps, were there any incidents,

Page 14030

 1     were there any military activities?

 2        A.   I don't think there were any incidents and we, on our part, in

 3     our territory, undertook all necessary measures to receive and disarm the

 4     conscripts and to place people in the reception centres, although not

 5     many of them arrived.  This was approached in an organised fashion which

 6     luckily ended up well without any serious consequences.

 7        Q.   You've already explained the process partly but when we say

 8     "demilitarisation," it meant the arms being taken out of that area.

 9     Where was it taken to?

10        A.   To the bases of the 1st Army and its corps in Novi Sad.

11        Q.   Regarding the entire procedure, did General Perisic play a role

12     in it and what were the reactions of the international community about

13     the way demilitarisation was carried out?

14        A.   Everyone involved in it, including Mr. Klein, came to see

15     Mr. Perisic.  He issued orders and organised the process of storing

16     weapons and receiving people.  His role was key.

17        Q.   Let us go back now to the Dayton Accords in November 1995.  First

18     of all, what was the position of the VJ and the General Staff and its

19     chief about the signing of the Dayton Accords and following that?

20        A.   The position of the chief and of the General Staff was that the

21     Dayton Accords need to be achieved and that a delegation be well prepared

22     for the talks which should ultimately result in the beginning of the

23     peace process.

24        Q.   After the Dayton Accords were signed, did you meet with

25     President Milosevic, and if so, where?

Page 14031

 1        A.   Upon returning from Dayton, President Milosevic ordered that a

 2     meeting be held with all generals of the VJ at which he was to explain

 3     the results of the peace agreement.  The meeting was held in the war room

 4     of the old General Staff building.  I greeted President Milosevic at the

 5     entrance of the office of the General Staff, which is some 50 to

 6     60 metres away from the old building, but there is a connecting hallway

 7     between the two buildings.

 8             I escorted him, and on the way, the president expressed his

 9     concern about how the Dayton Accords were to be received.  He was

10     wondering whether they could be implemented by peaceful means.  At a

11     certain moment he said that he wasn't sure whether he did his utmost.  I

12     told him that he shouldn't worry about it any longer and that he had done

13     what he could and that, in my view, it was the most that could be

14     achieved because others couldn't do as much.

15             If resolved by military means, I assured him it would have been

16     far worse with the time going on.  I told him that the generals were

17     waiting for him.  I showed him into the room and attended the rest of the

18     meeting.

19        Q.   Do you know what the position was of the top brass of the VRS

20     vis-a-vis the Dayton Accords, and what was the position of the

21     General Staff about their position?

22        A.   I knew that all of those with whom we had had contact were

23     dissatisfied with it.  They were not happy with the maps, the conditions,

24     et cetera.

25        Q.   Did you approve of such a position or was it a reason for concern

Page 14032

 1     on your part?

 2        A.   We believed it was the result of their misunderstanding or poor

 3     understanding of the situation as we had believed before.  We were

 4     concerned to an extent, but it was our assessment that they had no other

 5     way to achieve anything other than that.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 65 ter document 01023D.

 7     It is a news article.  The copy, I am afraid, is rather poor but we did

 8     our best to have it translated into English.

 9        Q.   This is from Tanjug.  What was Tanjug?

10        A.   It's an acronym for the telegraph agency of the new Yugoslavia.

11     It was the official news agency of Yugoslavia, nowadays of Serbia.  But

12     it hasn't changed name.

13        Q.   What are we looking at, do you know this document?  This

14     communique?

15        A.   Communiques for Tanjug were written by the administration for

16     morale and information and it's a statement by the Chief of General

17     Staff, Momcilo Perisic.  He says that the Dayton Accords were received

18     with relief.  He expresses his satisfaction that combat has ceased and

19     that people are returning to normal life.  This is an expression of our

20     official position for the media.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have an exhibit number for

22     this document, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

24     an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

Page 14033

 1     Exhibit D495.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   General, the next area I want to look into is, do you have any

 5     knowledge about the incidents involving the French pilots and were you

 6     involved in the negotiations for their release?

 7        A.   I was.  I was involved in the operation to free the French

 8     pilots.

 9        Q.   We've heard some evidence about it already.  I'd like to focus on

10     the final stages of this episode.  What was your involvement precisely in

11     this incident after the arrival of General Douin, who was the chief of

12     the joint staff?

13        A.   First of all, we established contact with the airport, with

14     General Douin and our general, and we tried to invite General Douin to

15     visit our General Staff.  The French general did not accept to come into

16     our office.  He wanted General Perisic to see him on board the plane.  We

17     suggested to General Perisic not to go, not to go aboard that plane.

18     It's actually a long story, but in the end, we sent off General Perisic

19     and General Dimitrijevic to get involved from Travnik, in Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina, in the operation to free the French pilots, and I stayed at

21     the office to be a liaison between General Perisic, between the

22     government of Republika Srpska at Pale, and the president of the

23     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Mr. Zoran Lilic.

24             We were constantly in contact, in fact, because during those days

25     and nights, he frequently came to our office.

Page 14034

 1        Q.   Before this erupted, did your office know where these pilots

 2     were?

 3        A.   No.  We received disinformation even, that they were not alive,

 4     but we didn't know where they were.

 5        Q.   So what happened later when you remained at the office?

 6        A.   The negotiations were very difficult.  I spoke twice, I think, to

 7     President Karadzic who set a series of conditions, from preserving new

 8     Sarajevo as Serbian Sarajevo to various conditions regarding his own

 9     status.  I passed this on to President Lilic and President Lilic conveyed

10     it to President Milosevic.

11             In our office we had a document that had been prepared earlier, a

12     list of demands made by the leadership of Republika Srpska, and at the

13     beginning President Lilic would not accede to these demands.  And once he

14     told me that he was not going to beg Slobodan Milosevic anymore either.

15     We were in contact with General Perisic, asked him regularly how things

16     were coming along, what is going on there.  It's really a long story.

17             And at one point the communications centre told me that they had

18     Jacques Chirac, the president of France, on the line and he wanted to

19     speak to President Milosevic.  I ordered that he would be put through to

20     the president.  We did not listen in, of course.  After awhile,

21     President Lilic called me in and said, "I'll sign whatever they want just

22     so that this matter be resolved once for all."

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we put on the screen, I think

24     it's already an exhibit, P2709.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for the record, this document is still MFI.

Page 14035

 1     Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks, Mr. Registrar.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Just one correction to the record.  You said in Serbian on

 5     page 75, line 2, you mentioned Travnik, was it perhaps another town?

 6        A.   My mistake.  My mistake.  That town on the border --

 7        Q.   It's a similar sounding name.

 8        A.   I remember now, Zvornik.  Zvornik.

 9        Q.   Do you know this document?

10        A.   I know it well.  It was authorised and verified in our office.

11     It's not the office of President Lilic, it's the office of the Chief of

12     General Staff.  When President Lilic decided to sign, we had no other

13     stamp handy.  We put our own stamp, registered it, and if you raise the

14     document, you will see that nobody has signed on behalf of

15     Republika Srpska.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the bottom of the page,

17     please.

18        Q.   Who drafted this?

19        A.   The leadership of Republika Srpska drafted this and it came to

20     our desk during the night.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   After the document was signed, the Chief of General Staff

23     communicated that the operation would be finalised successfully, and I

24     went to the Drina to bring the pilots back safely.  And that was the end

25     of the operation.

Page 14036

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know why this document was

 2     MFI'd --

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Correction for the transcript, this document was

 4     admitted as an exhibit.  Thank you.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you know what kind of reaction ensued from the end of this

 7     operation, what kind of reputation did General Perisic enjoy in the

 8     French circles?

 9        A.   Well, it was obvious from the involvement of President Chirac

10     that this was very important to them, and the information we received

11     from Paris we received later was of great satisfaction that the operation

12     was concluded and that General Perisic made it all possible, and

13     General Perisic continued thinking for a long time after that that

14     General Douin was his friend.  The whole climate was very positive.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see 01088D from the

16     Defence 65 ter.

17        Q.   What are we looking at now?

18        A.   It's a standard encoded telegram, like telegrams normally sent by

19     our diplomatic representatives.  It is now in decoded form and we

20     received such messages from our military attaches on a daily basis.  Both

21     we and the 2nd administration received them.  We did not make any

22     analysis of this; the 2nd administration did.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  Let's look at the last paragraph.

24     In B/C/S we need to see the bottom of the page, and I will give time to

25     the Trial Chamber to look at it before we turn to the next page.  If you

Page 14037

 1     can -- can we have page 2 in English.  In fact, what I want to read

 2     begins at the next page in English.

 3        Q.   It says "Opinion of VI."  What is VI?

 4        A.   It's military attache in Serbian.

 5        Q.   "This topic will be much exploited in the media very soon.  I

 6     believe the liberation of the pilots will have a very good positive

 7     impact on Yugoslav/French relations."

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The last sentence, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   "And will lead to continued positive development of the official

10     treatment of the VI."

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we please have the same page of the B/C/S.

12     It keeps flip-flopping backwards and forwards, we can hardly read.  Thank

13     you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I read that last bit in English,

15     Your Honours, that straddles the next page.

16        Q.   Do you know if General Douin later came to visit the

17     General Staff of Yugoslavia of the VJ?  For instance, the air force fair?

18        A.   I wasn't there at the aviation fair, but I know he was there.

19        Q.   Do you know that he decorated some pilots of the VJ?

20        A.   Yes, it was a big event.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have an exhibit number for

22     this document.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

24     an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

Page 14038

 1     Exhibit D496.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I suggest that we adjourn for today.

 4     I don't have much time left with Mr. Borovic.  I'm saying this for his

 5     benefit.  I think he is anxious to complete.  I'll be done within the

 6     first session tomorrow.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 8             Mr. Borovic, as I mentioned yesterday, you are still on the

 9     witness-stand and you may not discuss the case with anybody, least of all

10     the Defence team.  We'll come back tomorrow morning at 9.00, same

11     courtroom.  Okay.

12             Court adjourned to 9.00 tomorrow morning, Courtroom I.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of

15                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.