101015ED

Page 14212

1 Barney Thomas for the Prosecution.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 And for the Defence.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

5 morning to all the participants in the proceedings. General Perisic is

6 represented today by Boris Zorko, our Case Manager, and

7 Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith and myself, Novak Lukic.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. May the record

9 show the Chamber is sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis today in the absence

10 of Judge David. May the witness please make the declaration.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 WITNESS: VLADIMIR RODIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, sir, and

17 good morning to you. Dobro jutro.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Good morning, sir.

20 Mr. Lukic.

21 Examination by Mr. Lukic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. Please state your full name

23 for the record.

24 A. Vladimir Rodic.

25 Q. Mr. Rodic, during our proofing session, I cautioned you about the

Page 14213

1 fact that the two of us speak the same language and understand each other

2 but that for the sake of others, we need to make a pause between question

3 and answer. This is your first time appearing in a courtroom and of

4 course in front of this Tribunal so please be mindful of the fact that

5 you need to pause for a couple of seconds and follow the cursor on your

6 screen, let that guide you for that.

7 Can you tell us where you were born and when?

8 A. I was born in Belgrade in 1946.

9 Q. I will have several questions concerning your professional

10 career. We could say that for the duration of your career you were a

11 professional driver; is that right?

12 A. Yes. I was a professional driver ever since 1971.

13 Q. And when were you retired, Mr. Rodic?

14 A. I was retired in 2001.

15 Q. A moment, please. Can you confirm for me that in fact as of

16 1988, you hold the status of a civilian who was employed as a

17 professional driver in the General Staff of the JNA and the SSNO, and

18 subsequently within the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes, as of 1988.

21 Q. As a driver, which unit were you assigned to? What was the title

22 of the unit and how many other drivers were there with you and what was

23 their status, if you can tell us in general terms?

24 A. There were 30 civilian drivers. There were soldiers on contract

25 and conscripts. This was the staff administration units in the service

Page 14214

1 of the General Staff and the SSNO, which was later to become the

2 ministry.

3 Q. Of course we will be focusing on the period of 1994 and 1995 for

4 the main part. Tell us, these civilians who were in the service of the

5 JNA, who would they be driving from among the members of the

6 General Staff and the SSNO? Who were they charged with, who was their

7 charge?

8 A. All the civilians who were members of that unit would drive

9 military functionaries, generals; whereas the soldiers who were there

10 would attend to all the other needs. In other words, they would only be

11 driving generals.

12 Q. Before you became Mr. Perisic's driver, who did you drive from

13 among these generals?

14 A. Veljko Kadijevic, the federal secretary. General Ajdukovic,

15 secretary for finances. Later on, Zivota Panic, shortly before his

16 retirement. In other words, the General Staff of the army.

17 Q. Did there come a time when you started to work for

18 General Momcilo Perisic and when?

19 A. I became General Perisic's driver in January 1994. I don't

20 recall the exact date, but it was between the 10th and 12th of January of

21 1994.

22 Q. Up until what time were you Perisic's driver? His personal

23 driver, let me put it that way.

24 A. I was his driver until he left the position, which was on the

25 24th of October, 1998.

Page 14215

1 Q. Do you know who was your predecessor as Mr. Perisic's driver?

2 A. My predecessor was Vukoman.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch his last name.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I subsequently became Perisic's

5 driver in addition to him, so he continued in the job with me.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter didn't catch the surname of the

7 predecessor.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vukoman Cabarkapa.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. What became of him, if you know? How long did he stay there as a

11 driver?

12 A. He was a driver until the 7th or the 8th of February when he fell

13 ill and had to be hopitalised for a surgery. He never came back to the

14 duty he had before.

15 Q. And do you know what became of him?

16 A. He was in the hospital undergoing treatment and died on the 7th

17 October of the same year, later that year.

18 Q. At the time you were Mr. Perisic's driver, was there anyone else

19 there with you? Did anyone join you? And if so, when?

20 A. There was another driver who came some two months later, end of

21 March, early April. And his name was Slobodan Djukic. He was an

22 active-duty serviceman who was General Perisic's driver together with me.

23 Q. In addition to the two of you, was there a third person who was

24 General Perisic's driver together with you in that period of time?

25 A. No, there was no one else. There was just the two of us who

Page 14216

1 would take turns at driving General Perisic.

2 Q. You say you took turns, can you tell us what sort of shifts did

3 you have from the point when Djukic joined you as a driver?

4 A. The shifts were such that I would be driving him for two days and

5 then Slobodan Djukic would take over for the subsequent two days.

6 Q. What sort of vehicles were used for the purpose of driving

7 General Perisic?

8 A. A BMW 740 and a Puch jeep 300 as an all-terrain vehicle.

9 Q. In the course of the two days which was the duration of your

10 shift, what was your day like and what sort of contacts did you have with

11 General Perisic?

12 A. I would pick up General Perisic every morning at 7.00 and would

13 work for him for as long as necessary. It depended on his duties.

14 Sometime until the afternoon, sometime until the evening, and then at the

15 end of a day's work, General Perisic would tell me when I ought to pick

16 him up on the following morning. If need be, General Perisic would

17 occasionally call for me in the evenings where I would have to come and

18 pick him up and take him wherever necessary.

19 Q. When you said that you had to pick him up every morning at 7.00,

20 where exactly did you pick him up from, let's be precise?

21 A. I would go to General Perisic's residence at Topciderska Zvezda

22 and would take him to the General Staff building on Kneza Milosa Street.

23 Q. When, in the course of a day's work, you had to make a trip with

24 General Perisic or in the afternoon or evening when you had to take him

25 somewhere, who would be calling you to tell you that you needed to make a

Page 14217

1 trip? Would he do it personally or someone on his behalf?

2 A. Orders for trips would come exclusively from General Perisic,

3 save exceptionally through a duty officer who would be conveying

4 General Perisic's message.

5 Q. Where would you take petrol for these vehicles?

6 A. We would fill up the tank at the bus -- at the petrol station

7 close to the Topcider Barracks, or close to --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch where the other

9 location was.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter didn't catch the other name.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I think that the former wasn't, not the latter location. Can you

13 tell us again where it was that you took petrol and where you took diesel

14 fuel?

15 A. I would take petrol at the petrol station close to the

16 General Staff on Bircaninova Street, and the diesel fuel within the

17 compound of the Topcider Barracks on Topcider.

18 Q. Did you hear stories about soldiers of the Army of Republika

19 Srpska using petrol from that particular station, and if you did, what

20 exactly did you hear?

21 A. I heard from a driver that they would be taking fuel, but where

22 exactly, I don't know, because it depended on whether they needed petrol

23 or diesel.

24 Q. Which drivers were these?

25 A. The drivers arriving from Republika Srpska.

Page 14218

1 Q. Were these official drivers for VRS generals or were they

2 employees of companies, can you be more specific, please?

3 A. They were the drivers of generals who would be coming to

4 Belgrade.

5 Q. Did you know if they decanted any extra fuel in addition to what

6 was needed to fill up the tank?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, don't tell the witness how they did it,

8 ask the witness how they did it.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honour. I will

10 rephrase my question.

11 Q. What did they tell you what fuel did they take and where?

12 A. They told us that they were going to fill up their tanks to have

13 a full tank. In other words, they were supposed to fill up the fuel, the

14 amount of fuel that was consumed on their way there.

15 Q. Thank you. When you took trips with General Perisic, be it

16 within or without Belgrade, would there be a security detail accompanying

17 General Perisic and you?

18 A. Yes, there always was one escort, and his name was Loki.

19 Q. Can you give us his full name, if you know?

20 A. Dobrosav Lojanica.

21 Q. In addition to you, the escort, and General Perisic, was there

22 anyone else accompanying you either in Belgrade or outside of it whenever

23 you took a trip?

24 A. No, there was no one else. It was just us.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did the security man travel with you in the same

Page 14219

1 car or did he travel in a separate car?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were all in the same car.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. When you set out for a destination with General Perisic either

6 within or without Belgrade, what exactly were your duties and what did

7 you do upon reaching your destination?

8 A. My task was to safely drive General Perisic to a destination. As

9 soon as we got there, I would stay by the car and secure the car, and the

10 escort would accompany General Perisic to the venue of a meeting.

11 Q. Very well. I will be focusing on the 1994 and 1995 period. In

12 the course of the war, as we call it here, in Bosnia, did you take

13 General Perisic to the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, specifically

14 Republika Srpska?

15 A. As far as I remember, on three or four occasions I drove him to

16 the territory of Republika Srpska, specifically Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka,

17 the command post there.

18 Q. Did you personally ever drive him to the territory of

19 Republika Srpska but to a different location than the one you've just

20 mentioned, Crna Rijeka?

21 A. No, never. Nowhere else other than Crna Rijeka.

22 Q. Did you know if your colleague, Djukic, ever drove General

23 Perisic to Republika Srpska?

24 A. As far as I know, he may have gone there on three or four

25 occasions as well.

Page 14220

1 Q. Mr. Rodic, did I show you during our proofing session certain

2 notes, or, rather, as we call them here General Mladic's notebooks in

3 order to refresh your memory with regard to some trips that you may have

4 been a part of or not?

5 A. You showed me a photograph in Crna Rijeka and that was on the

6 18th --

7 Q. We'll get back to that later, but did I show you specific

8 information about General Perisic together with some individuals in

9 Crna Rijeka, and do you recall me asking you whether you were present

10 there during those trips?

11 A. Yes, I do remember that.

12 Q. Did you ever drive General Perisic to the territory of the

13 Republic of the Serbian Krajina in Croatia in 1994 or 1995?

14 A. Yes, to Eastern Slavonia and Vukovar, that part.

15 Q. On how many occasions?

16 A. Once.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps if we can be more precise,

18 the witness said on page 10, line 9, Eastern Slavonia to Vukovar. To

19 Eastern Slavonia, to Vukovar, lest it be misunderstood as two different

20 territories. Vukovar is in Eastern Slavonia.

21 Q. Mr. Rodic, when did this happen, can you tell us, just

22 approximately?

23 A. As far as I can recall, it was in autumn, but I cannot remember

24 the exact date.

25 Q. And the year, do you remember the year? Was it before the fall

Page 14221

1 of Krajina, before Operation Storm or after that?

2 A. It was after the fall of Krajina.

3 Q. Thank you. I will now move on to some specific events that I

4 would like to explore with you. Do you know whether in January 1994

5 General Perisic went to Republika Srpska?

6 A. Yes, I know about that. The earlier driver told me that

7 General Perisic had gone to a burial in Kalinovik together with his wife.

8 His wife's nephew was -- had died and his wife's sister's son was killed

9 and they went to see him buried there.

10 Q. Can you remember any other details about that particular trip,

11 what your predecessor Vukoman told you about it?

12 A. He told me because they were going for Trnovo and Kalinovik, they

13 were supposed to drive through Sarajevo but there were combat operations

14 there and they went that way, but on their way back they returned via

15 Montenegro. They could not take the same road that they took on the way

16 out.

17 Q. Do you know the name of that relative of General Perisic's they

18 went to visit, the person who was killed in action?

19 A. His name was Nemanja Mandic.

20 Q. Why is it that you remember that name?

21 A. Well, I remember it because later on I drove General Perisic's

22 wife to the funeral of her mother's in Trnovo and I spent the night in

23 the house of their sister and brother-in-law, rather, the father of his

24 wife, and I spent actually two nights in their house.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now pull up,

Page 14222

1 please, 65 ter D0379 in e-court. 00379. That's a document from the

2 Defence 65 ter list, 65 ter D00379T, my error. I actually did something

3 to confuse the Registrar. My apologies.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are actually doing something to confuse the

5 Chamber as well, Mr. Lukic, because any number that starts with a D is a

6 number where --

7 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, I know.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- the exhibit number has been given. Usually

9 when it is still a 65 ter number you put the D at the end.

10 MR. LUKIC: That's right.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: So what you now put as a T at the end, is that

12 supposed to be a D?

13 MR. LUKIC: Yes, D.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it is 379D.

15 MR. LUKIC: Right, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when we tried to

18 determine how to add -- how to indicate our own 65 ter numbers, we just

19 added this D in order to make a distinction between the Prosecution

20 65 ter documents, but --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, but the thing is when it's

22 still a 65 ter number, the D is at the end.

23 MR. LUKIC: At the end, yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when it's an exhibit, the D is at the

25 beginning. Now you started with a D this time.

Page 14223

1 MR. LUKIC: My mistake, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Rodic, we see before us, can you tell us what it is we are

5 looking at? Can you see it on the screen?

6 A. Yes, I can. It's a death certificate for the late

7 Nemanja Mandic.

8 Q. Do you know the name of his parents? They are mentioned at the

9 bottom of this document. Are these the people where you slept when you

10 went to drive the General to his wife's mother's funeral?

11 A. Well, yes, I spent the night in Trnovo, I spent there two nights

12 and they told me -- they talked about the late Nemanja.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

14 this document.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00503.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

19 MR. THOMAS: Your Honour, if I could just draw one matter,

20 please, to my learned friend's attention.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.

22 MR. THOMAS: At page 13, line 5, in putting the question, my

23 learned friend asked are these the people where you slept when you went

24 to drive the General to his wife's mother's funeral. My learned friend,

25 I think understands.

Page 14224

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, we will move on to that.

2 The witness put it a bit differently.

3 Q. Now, tell us, please, whom did you take to the funeral of

4 General Perisic's wife's mother, and when did that happen?

5 A. I only drove General Perisic's wife, Smilja, and that was some

6 time between the 10th and 12th of December, 1995. I believe in 1994.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I may not be very awake, but I don't

8 understand this question, "Whom did you take to the funeral of

9 General Perisic's wife's mother?" Now, we have seen that the death

10 certificate of this person is a person who was born in 1969, is that the

11 person whose funeral you are talking about? And could that person be the

12 mother to Mr. Perisic's wife?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Those are two different funerals.

15 These are two different funerals.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Deal with one funeral, finish it, then move on to

17 the next. Let's see you make the transition. Don't confuse them.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That was my intention. However, the

19 translation actually introduced some confusion because it was mentioned

20 that General Perisic too attended the funeral. And I will clear that up

21 later on, but I'm moving chronologically.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is your question, Mr. Lukic. You've got to

23 deal with a topic, round it off, and then make a transition to the next.

24 The translation can never make that mistake. It's always the

25 questioning.

Page 14225

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have finished with one topic,

2 Your Honour, and because of the question that I put to the witness when

3 he had learned the name of the person whose death certificate we can see

4 before us, because he said that he learned it later on when he attended

5 the second funeral, and the transcript actually reflects that

6 General Perisic attended the second funeral and Mr. Thomas's remark was,

7 in fact, a reference to that, to correct that. And in order to clarify

8 this issue, I had to put this extra question because the interpretation

9 was erroneous. What is in the transcript is not -- does not reflect

10 exactly what the witness said, on page 13, line 5. But we can leave the

11 transcript as is and then when I return to this topic, it will become

12 much clearer. You will understand then that this is erroneously

13 recorded.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ...

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 Q. Sir, when you drove General Perisic to Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka,

17 on those three or four occasions, did you always take the same road or

18 did you change the route that you took?

19 A. When we went to Han Pijesak, we always went -- we travelled the

20 same way on our way out and on our way back.

21 Q. Could you please tell us, without us having to put a map before

22 you, what the road that you took from Belgrade to Han Pijesak was? Which

23 places did you have to go through and back?

24 A. From Belgrade, we would take the highway to the Ruma

25 intersection, then we would take the left fork to Sabac, from Sabac to

Page 14226

1 Loznica, from Loznica to Zvornik, from Zvornik along the Zvornik lake,

2 all the way to Drinjaca, and then Milici, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak,

3 Crna Rijeka.

4 Q. How long did it take usually to get from Belgrade to Crna Rijeka

5 at that time during the war-time period?

6 A. It took about two and a half to three hours.

7 Q. Where did you cross the border? Where was there a border

8 crossing, and what was the procedure once you reached the border?

9 A. We always crossed the border at Zvornik at Karakaj bridge. We

10 would report to the police and the customs service. They would take our

11 IDs.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are having some difficulty. We

13 heard just now, in addition to the interpretation -- to the witness on

14 the B/C/S channel, I also recognised a voice of my colleague from

15 Courtroom III. I'm just saying this for the benefit of the technical

16 service.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Courtroom III?

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Yes, I recognise the voice of my

19 colleague Defence counsel in B/C/S.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Madam Registrar will try and help us.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe it's all right now, so we

22 will move on.

23 Q. Very well. So could you please describe the procedure. Once you

24 reached the border crossing, what happened then?

25 A. When we came to the border crossing, we always had to report to

Page 14227

1 the police, the police would take our IDs, check the passengers in the

2 vehicle, and once they established their identity on the basis of their

3 IDs, we would go back to the car, move on, come to the customs service,

4 they would look at what we had in our car and then they would let us

5 through.

6 Q. Were you the only ones who had this benefit of crossing or

7 advantage of crossing the border with your ID only, without the passport,

8 or was it the case with other people as well?

9 A. This was the standard procedure for all citizens crossing the

10 border there.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have a 65 --

12 actually an exhibit, Defence exhibit, which is still MFI'd and that is

13 D22 MFI.

14 Q. Mr. Rodic, can you recognise this picture?

15 A. Yes, this is the Drina River in Zvornik and the bridge that we

16 crossed when we travelled from Serbia to Bosnia to Republika Srpska.

17 From this bridge would he take the left fork immediately, go through

18 Zvornik, and then drive along the Zvornik lake on.

19 Q. Would you please just slow down a bit. In other words, at the

20 bottom of this photo below the river as it were, what state is that?

21 A. That's the Republic of Serbia.

22 Q. Would you please repeat that slowly?

23 A. At the bottom of the picture we see the Republic of Serbia,

24 that's Mali Zvornik. Once you cross the Drina River that's

25 Velika Zvornik or big Zvornik, that is in the Republika Srpska.

Page 14228

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is clear

2 enough that we don't have to mark this photo and I propose to tender this

3 into evidence, but if you would prefer the witness to mark this, we can

4 ask him to because what happened was that the last witness was unable to

5 recognise this photo, what it depicts, and that is why this exhibit was

6 MFI'd, but I believe what this witness said now clearly identifies what

7 this photograph depicts.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Run your case, Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I then propose that we just then

10 remove the MFI designation and tender this into evidence.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.

12 MR. THOMAS: No objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The MFI is removed.

14 Q. Do you remember -- do you remember whether when you made some of

15 these trips, in addition to General Perisic, there were some other

16 generals that you took with you in the car, and if you can recall their

17 names? Generals from the General Staff.

18 A. Yes, I remember on one occasion General Dimitrijevic joined us as

19 well as Ratko Milovanovic.

20 Q. Can you tell us approximately when this was? I showed you a

21 paper.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For us, Your Honours, that's

23 Exhibit D344, but I do not seek to put it now to the witness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can recall, I believe

25 this was in August, the month of August.

Page 14229

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Do you remember what year?

3 A. I cannot remember the year, the exact year.

4 Q. How long did you usually stay in Han Pijesak on those three or

5 four occasions when you visited there?

6 A. Usually the visits themselves, the meetings, would take one and a

7 half to two hours at most and we would immediately go back to Belgrade,

8 so overall it would take about eight hours in total for us to go out and

9 return to Belgrade.

10 Q. Do you remember whether you drove General Perisic to Han Pijesak

11 in July 1995?

12 A. Yes, I remember taking him there on the 18th of July, 1995.

13 Q. Why do -- how do you remember that it was on that particular day?

14 A. Well, I remember it because that was the date -- that's the date

15 of my wedding anniversary and I was anxious to get back home as soon as

16 possible in order to take my wife out to dinner.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please see Exhibit P2798.

18 Q. Do you recognise this area shown in this photo, Mr. Rodic?

19 A. Yes, this was -- this is in Crna Rijeka outside the command post,

20 and when I --

21 Q. Let's take it step by step, so just answer my question first.

22 A. Yes, I do recognise this location.

23 Q. Did you ever enter the building that we can see in the background

24 of this photo?

25 A. No, I never entered that building.

Page 14230

1 Q. Can you recognise any of the persons in this photo?

2 A. I recognise the uniformed man, that's General Gvero.

3 Q. Very well. What was the usual procedure when you arrived in

4 Crna Rijeka? What would you do? Where would you drive your car, and

5 where would you stay while General Perisic had these meetings and visited

6 these locations?

7 A. I drove General Perisic to outside this building and when he got

8 out of the car, I drove back to the parking-lot and I would stay there

9 throughout his meeting.

10 Q. How far was that parking-lot, to the best of your recollection,

11 from this building?

12 A. Well, it would be about five to six minutes on foot to get from

13 this building to the parking-lot.

14 Q. Very well. Now, let us go back to the 18th of July, 1995.

15 First, do you remember how it -- do you remember when you were told that

16 you should travel on this particular day? Was it done on that same day

17 or the day before?

18 A. On that day, I was told sometime around 9.00 or 9.30 and I was

19 told that we were going and we set off immediately.

20 Q. Since you remember that day as you say because you wanted to get

21 back home as soon as possible, can you tell us, to the best of your

22 recollection, how long you stayed in Crna Rijeka, that's to say when did

23 you head back?

24 A. We stayed an hour, an hour and a half there at the most, and left

25 there at roughly 1.00, 1.30 p.m.

Page 14231

1 Q. On your way back did you drive to this very location to pick him

2 up or did General Perisic come to the location where the car was parked?

3 A. General Perisic got to the car, he got in, and we set out for

4 Belgrade.

5 Q. Do you remember if he came alone or did General Mladic or anyone

6 else accompany him to the car? Or let me first ask you this, I

7 apologise --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where do we get General Mladic from?

9 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, I made a mistake.

10 Q. [Interpretation] When you got to your destination, who did you

11 see there?

12 A. I saw these civilians and General Gvero seated at this table.

13 Q. Did you see any other general on this occasion?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you hear at the time that General Mladic was present there as

16 well?

17 A. While I was at the parking-lot, I heard from the people who

18 worked there that General Mladic was there.

19 Q. Do you remember a table being set for a luncheon or anything of

20 that sort?

21 A. No, no table was set for lunch. General Perisic was the sort of

22 person who would go where he needed to go, do his business without

23 lunching or anything and we would immediately head straight back.

24 Q. In such occasions where you took General Perisic to Crna Rijeka

25 and specifically on this occasion, do you recall if he would normally go

Page 14232

1 straight to where the car was parked, or did you have to go and pick him

2 up from the location and would he normally be on his own or in the

3 company of someone? And I mean on the way back.

4 A. No, I wouldn't stir from the parking-lot. It would always be

5 General Perisic who would come there. And it would always be

6 General Mladic who would escort him to the car. They would have a chat

7 for a minute or two right there by the car. I would have my window all

8 the way up so I couldn't hear what they were talking about, and then he

9 would get in the car and we would leave for Belgrade.

10 Q. Would you close the window only when he would be engaged in a

11 conversation with General Mladic, or was it your habit to do that with

12 anyone or when he was talking to whomever in all these years that you

13 worked for him?

14 A. My window was always closed and I was in the habit of doing that

15 so that I wouldn't be listening in to any of the conversation that the

16 General might have with anyone outside the car.

17 Q. When you were making these trips with General Perisic about

18 Belgrade or outside of Belgrade, would you engage in any sort of

19 conversation with him while in the car?

20 A. No. My duty was to safely take the General from point A to point

21 B, and I wanted to be focused on the driving.

22 Q. In that period of time, around the 18th of July, 1995, did you

23 hear anything about Srebrenica, and if so, what exactly?

24 A. Well, only later on from the media that Srebrenica had fallen.

25 Nothing else.

Page 14233

1 Q. Let me repeat. Did you take the same route that you always used

2 on this occasion as well, or did you normally change routes -- or did you

3 change your route this time?

4 A. No, I didn't change the route. I said that we always took the

5 same route on our way out and on our way back.

6 Q. Do you recall if you experienced on this trip on your way out or

7 on your way back something out of the ordinary that would set it apart

8 from all the other trips that you made?

9 A. Nothing out of the ordinary. The only thing was that through the

10 two villages that we passed, we could see that some houses had been

11 burned, so we saw damage. We saw a group of civilians, we saw, of

12 course, the policemen on the border, and we saw civilians in Vlasenica as

13 well.

14 Q. The fact that you saw civilians in Milici and Vlasenica and the

15 houses burned, would you see such sights of the house burned down, see --

16 would you see such sights before?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And would you see civilians in Milici and Vlasenica on earlier

19 trips as well?

20 A. Yes, I would see civilians in Milici and Vlasenica even earlier

21 on.

22 Q. Do you recall if you took General Perisic to Krusik, or rather,

23 sorry, let me put the question this way: Did you take General Perisic to

24 meet with General Mladic at some point in time somewhere within the FRY?

25 A. No, never.

Page 14234

1 Q. I saw -- I showed you an entry in Mladic's notebook concerning

2 the visit to Krusik which is in Valjevo. Did you take -- did you take

3 General Perisic to the Krusik factory in Valjevo?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Who was there on that occasion in addition to you?

6 A. When we got there, General Sava Pustinja and Radojica Kadijevic

7 from the procurement administration were there, and some 10 or 15 minutes

8 later General Mladic arrived as well.

9 Q. Who drove General Mladic there, if you remember?

10 A. He was taken there by his driver and he had his security detail

11 with him. I can't remember the name of the driver.

12 Q. How did this visit end?

13 A. When the visit ended, we went to Belgrade and General Mladic went

14 elsewhere. I don't know where.

15 Q. Did you take General Perisic to Zvornik for some meetings and

16 discussions at any point in time?

17 A. No, never.

18 Q. Do you know whether General Perisic was in Zvornik, and if so,

19 what the purpose of his visit was, and I mean Mali Zvornik and Zvornik?

20 A. I know that he went there for negotiations concerning French

21 pilots.

22 Q. And where were you at the time? Why didn't you drive him?

23 A. My colleague drove him and I took General Perisic's wife to her

24 mother's funeral in Trnovo. On my way back from Trnovo, I saw a large

25 number of cars in the Vidikovac hotel on the bank of the Zvornik lake and