Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14409

 1                           Friday, 5 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

12     Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

14             Could we have the appearances, please, starting with the

15     Prosecution.

16             MR. THOMAS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

17     General Djokic and everybody in and around the courtroom.

18             Inger de Ru, Rafael La Cruz and Barney Thomas for the

19     Prosecution.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Can you hear me now, sir?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's not your fault.  It's technology.

24             MR. THOMAS:  I can speak louder, sir, but that probably won't

25     solve the problem.

Page 14410

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Registrar will hopefully attend to it while we

 2     are carrying on.  Could you just speak again, Mr. Thomas.

 3             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir, can you hear me now?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Let's see if our side of the room does any better

 6     for you.  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to all.

 7             Chad Mair, Boris Zorko, Novak Lukic, and Gregor Guy-Smith on

 8     behalf of Mr. Perisic.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             Good morning, Mr. Djokic.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Morning.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hope you are well rested.  And just to remind

13     you that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning

14     of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else

15     but the truth.  Thank you very much.

16             Mr. Thomas.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           WITNESS:  IVAN DJOKIC [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thomas:  [Continued]

21             MR. THOMAS:  Can we please have General Djokic's report up on the

22     screen, please, and I'm looking for paragraph 162.  In the English,

23     that's page 61.  I think the Exhibit number is D507, from memory.

24        Q.   Now, General, just as this is coming up on the screen, this is a

25     paragraph we were dealing with towards the end of the day yesterday and I

Page 14411

 1     just want to return to this very briefly.  Do you have paragraph 162

 2     subparagraph (e) open in front of you?

 3        A.   I do.

 4        Q.   You will recall -- I'm sorry.  You will recall yesterday, sir,

 5     that we spoke about your terminology here according to the estimates of

 6     the majority of military analysts.  And you directed us at that point to

 7     footnote 72 in your report, and --

 8             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Mr. Registrar, in the end we didn't need

 9     to resort to e-court.  Could we please have instead 65 ter 07039D on the

10     screen, please.

11        Q.   Now, General, yesterday in explaining what you meant by the

12     majority of military analysts you said that this was included in the

13     report that is annexed as footnote 72 to your report.

14             MR. THOMAS:  That's referred to in paragraph 217 for

15     Your Honours' information.

16        Q.   I want to look, please, at this special report which is on the

17     screen.  It's several pages long and the text of the report identifies

18     the military experts that you refer to.  But there is a useful summary of

19     the report on the left-hand side in italics.

20             MR. THOMAS:  Mr. Registrar, and I just wonder if we can enlarge

21     the middle portion of that left-hand column, the briefing.  Yes.  All

22     right.

23        Q.   Now, you see there, General, that the briefing -- I'll just

24     take -- allow everyone a moment just to read that.

25             All right.  The report identifies two military experts

Page 14412

 1     responsible for its presentation and preparation, and my question to you

 2     is, is this the report that you referred to at footnote 92 [sic] of

 3     paragraph 217 of your report?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would it be 92 or 72?

 5             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry.  Your Honour is quite right.

 6        Q.   Is this the report that you refer to at footnote 72?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   All right.  Thank you, sir.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, could we please move to paragraph 174

10     of Mr. Djokic's report.

11        Q.   Sir, in this paragraph of your report you refer to the

12     Law on Property of the FRY, and as a result of that law you identify that

13     it is the federal minister of defence who is the only person or organ

14     directly responsible for lawful, purposeful, and rational use of military

15     equipment in the VJ.  Is that a correct assessment, sir?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Can we go to paragraph 196.

18        Q.   Where, after examining the SDC sessions on the topic, you come --

19     or you make the following assertion:

20             "That the federal republic of the FRY was chiefly responsible for

21     co-operation with the RSK and the RS while for logistical assistance it

22     was the Ministry of Defence as the central financial organ as foreseen by

23     law and defined by the decisions of the SDC."

24             Let me ask you this, sir:  For General Perisic to send

25     VJ assistance and materiel to the VRS or the SVK would, on the basis of

Page 14413

 1     the Law on Property, have been illegal; is that right?

 2        A.   Without an approval of the minister of defence, yes, in that case

 3     it would be.

 4        Q.   To be able to successfully circumvent this law, he would require

 5     at the very least a decision of the SDC ordering him do so; is that

 6     right?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm not sure that this is within the competence

 9     of this particular witness or not, the last question, because now he's

10     asking a legal -- in fact, he's asking a legal question.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well --

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If you look at the way the question is framed --

13     I think I understand what Mr. Thomas is driving at, but the the way the

14     question is framed, it is:  "To be able to successfully circumvent this

15     law, he would require at the very least a decision of the SDC."  That

16     takes into consideration, therefore, legal analysis of two separate

17     aspects of the law and the interrelationship between the powers of the

18     SDC and this particular law.  He may well be in a position --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then let him tell us.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let him tell us, because that's the topic he's

22     discussing in his report.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH: [Overlapping speakers] ... well, he's

24     discussing --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He's talking of Law on Property.  He's talking

Page 14414

 1     about who can lawfully dispose of property --

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  But here what we're talking about is the request

 3     for a legal analysis.  And if he's being asked for -- [Overlapping

 4     speakers] ...

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. -- Mr. --

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If he's being asked for a legal analysis, he has

 7     to be qualified with regard to --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. -- Mr. --

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH: -- his expertise in a legal issue.  That is my

10     objection.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm sorry; I rule you out of order.

12             Carry on, Mr. Thomas.

13             MR. THOMAS:

14        Q.   So, General, let me repeat my question.  I won't be able to do

15     that word for word; I don't have it on screen.  But my question was along

16     these lines:  For General Perisic to circumvent the Law on Property to

17     allow him to send assets to the VRS or the SVK would have required at the

18     very least a decision of the SDC empowering him to do so, wouldn't it?

19        A.   The Supreme Defence Council cannot circumvent any [Realtime

20     transcript read in error "my"] laws or the Ministry of Defence.  Why is

21     that?  It is because the SDC is not superior to the government.  They

22     can't say the Ministry of Defence is -- has no say in this.  Everything

23     stays in power respective of any SDC decisions.

24             As far as I understand, the SDC may order something to the

25     Chief of Staff but it cannot order anything to the government or the

Page 14415

 1     minister of defence.  They cannot rule out the legal procedure that is in

 2     place.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, I do apologise, Mr. Thomas, on line 1

 4     of page 6, there's the word "my," and I'm not positive that that was in

 5     fact the --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think the witness said "any laws."

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, could we please move very briefly into

 9     private session.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

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Page 14416











11 Pages 14416-14419 redacted. Private session.















Page 14420

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10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Yes, Mr. Thomas.

15             MR. THOMAS:

16        Q.   Well, General Djokic, can you explain for us, please, why there's

17     absolutely no discussion of this document in your report?

18        A.   I did not make use of this document because it wasn't provided to

19     me when I drafted the report.  I had the minutes of the SDC meetings and

20     their conclusions but not the order itself.  It was not part and parcel

21     of the SDC meetings material.

22        Q.   Can you explain to me why the 18th Session of the SDC, the

23     discussion preceding the issue of this order, has not been discussed by

24     you in your report?

25        A.   Could I first refer to the sessions of the SDC so that I can see

Page 14421

 1     whether I did write anything about the 18th Session?

 2        Q.   Of course.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And, Mr. Djokic, if you are referring to your

 4     report, can you please give us the page reference.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Could you please remind

 6     me, it is the session -- what were the dates?

 7             MR. THOMAS:

 8        Q.   Sorry, the 18th Session, sir, on the 7th of February, 1994.

 9        A.   In the report I indeed do not have that session.  It starts with

10     the 19th Session and continues.

11        Q.   Well, it stops at the 12th, skips everything between the 12th and

12     the 19th, doesn't it?

13        A.   If we could, could we please go to the conclusions of the

14     18th Session, because I also included a number of conclusions, actually

15     all the conclusions which had to do with the logistical support to the

16     SRK [as interpreted] and the RS.  Can we see whether on the 18th Session

17     there were any conclusions to that effect, otherwise I can't say

18     anything.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you two gentlemen looking at Mr. Djokic's

20     report?

21             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.  Page 77.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I had asked that we be given a page reference.

23             MR. THOMAS:

24        Q.   Well, General Djokic, with all due respect, it's your report.  If

25     you've referred to conclusions of the 18th Session of the SDC, you tell

Page 14422

 1     us where they are, please.

 2        A.   Paragraph 190 specifies as follows:

 3             "Following the appointment of General Perisic to the position of

 4     the Chief of Staff of the VJ, the Supreme Defence Council continued

 5     discussing providing assistance to the VRS and the SVK."

 6             In further text of the expert report we find the decisions of the

 7     SDC which relate to the logistical support offered to the VRS and the

 8     SVK.  In my expert report, I included those conclusions and not the

 9     discussions on the floor.  And this applies to the 19th Session onwards.

10     All of the decisions I had which had do with logistical support, I copied

11     those directly from the conclusions.

12        Q.   And we're agreed, sir, I think, that you omitted the 18th Session

13     of the SCD?

14        A.   Yes, only if there is a conclusion from that session which treats

15     that particular subject, then I acknowledge having made the mistake.  But

16     if there was a discussion among the participants but no conclusions, then

17     I omitted nothing because I only stated the conclusions which I did in

18     paragraph 190.

19        Q.   We've heard, sir, during the course of this trial that what then

20     emerged was a practice whereby requests for materiel would be sent by the

21     Main Staff of the VRS to either General Perisic personally or to the

22     General Staff of the VJ.  General Perisic would approve or not approve

23     the request in principle.  If he did approve it, he would forward it to

24     the relevant technical administration for their opinion as to whether or

25     not the request could be satisfied, and if so to what extent.  Depending

Page 14423

 1     then on the response from the technical administration, he would issue a

 2     decision as to whether any materiel would be supplied and to what extent.

 3             First of all, are you aware that that was the practice?

 4        A.   Your description does not correspond to the practice which was

 5     applied in the Yugoslav Army.

 6        Q.   Were you advised that that has been the evidence in this trial?

 7        A.   No, but I can give you the exact description, and I can give you

 8     the -- an exact description of the practice which was in effect then.

 9        Q.   Well, let's do it this way, General.

10             MR. THOMAS:  Can we move very briefly, Your Honours, into private

11     session, again.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

13     [Private session]       [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber] 

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. THOMAS:  Can we have document P2768 on the screen, please.

17     And, Mr. Registrar, after a couple of moments, could you just flick

18     through the next two pages quickly so that we can all have some overview

19     of what is the general nature of the attachment.

20             And if we can go back to the first page.

21        Q.   Now, General, were you provided with this document for the

22     purpose of your report?

23        A.   No, I've not had occasion to see this document before.

24        Q.   Okay.  Plainly it is a request from General Mladic on behalf of

25     the VRS for quantities of materiel.  And you can confirm for us that it's

Page 14424

 1     not addressed to the MOD, it's addressed to the General Staff of the VJ;

 2     is that right?

 3        A.   That's right.  And that is not the only document that was

 4     forwarded directly to the Chief of the General Staff.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  All right.  Your Honours, we can go back into public

 6     session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

 8             I guess you want to do that after this document has been removed

 9     from the screen?

10             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry.  Yes, Your Honour is quite right.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we remove the document from the screen,

12     please.  Thank you.

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, sir.

16             MR. THOMAS:

17        Q.   So, General Djokic, do you accept that VRS request for assistance

18     was sent to the General Staff of the VJ?

19        A.   To answer your question correctly, I have to say the following:

20     VRS requests for assistance were sent to many addresses, starting with

21     the president of the state, to the government, to the Chief of the

22     General Staff, and even to lower-ranking units than the General Staff.

23     These were all the addressees which received such requests, and there is

24     a multitude of documents to corroborate this.

25        Q.   General, go to paragraph 196 of your report again.

Page 14425

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Page 82, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   Where is your acknowledgement that the VJ participated in this

 3     way, in that paragraph?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What actually is your question, Mr. Thomas?  What

 5     do you mean "where is your acknowledgement that the VJ participated in

 6     this way"?

 7             MR. THOMAS:

 8        Q.   Paragraph 196, sir, you refer to the MOD as being chiefly

 9     responsible for co-operation between the RSK and the RS.  Where is your

10     acknowledgement of the VJ being responsible for co-operation between the

11     RSK and the RS and the VJ?

12        A.   This paragraph, Mr. Thomas, actually indicates the actual

13     protagonist of the co-operation, the actual agent which under the law was

14     the Ministry of Defence of Yugoslavia.  Having continued to read the

15     previous document which you showed as a request of the Army of

16     Republika Srpska and the way in which it would have been implemented, we

17     would have seen the exact relative roles of all the protagonists.  There

18     was a procedure in place which confirms exactly what is written in

19     paragraph 196.  The actual vehicle, the actual protagonist of this

20     co-operation is the Ministry of Defence.  And once the Ministry of

21     Defence approves that something can be given as assistance, then the

22     actual implementation of the supplying of such assistance is done by the

23     army.  And I claim that that was so, and I can prove it.

24             MR. THOMAS:  All right.  Let's have a look at P2749, please.

25        Q.   Sir, is this a document that was provided to you for the purposes

Page 14426

 1     of preparing your report?

 2        A.   I cannot be sure because I have seen thousands of documents, but

 3     at first glance I recognise the content of the document.

 4        Q.   Well, once again, it is a request from General Mladic.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  We don't see the bottom of it, Your Honours, in

 6     English.  If we could just scroll to the next page.  And back to the

 7     front page, please, Mr. Registrar.

 8        Q.   Addressed directly to the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army and

 9     only to the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, constituting a request

10     for further materiel.  You will see on the original, in the top

11     right-hand corner, a handwritten note by General Perisic.

12             MR. THOMAS:  If we could just scroll down a little in the B/C/S,

13     please, Mr. -- or scroll up, please.

14        Q.   There, you see that note, sir?

15        A.   Yes, I see it, and that note in the corner is important.

16        Q.   And it is to the chief of engineers and General Milovanovic of

17     the General Staff, stating that a proposal to be given as soon as

18     possible; is that right?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just for --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what it says.  What it

21     says is that General Milovanovic and the chief of engineers should

22     prepare a proposal as soon as possible, namely to establish whether there

23     are any surpluses of such supplies and if there are any such surpluses,

24     to prepare a proposal for the Chief of the General Staff who shall then

25     on his part send a proposal to the Ministry of Defence to see whether

Page 14427

 1     that proposal, or rather, the request can be complied with.  That was the

 2     procedure which was in effect then.  That is exactly what I've been

 3     saying.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see you, Mr. Guy-Smith, I'll come back to you.

 5             I don't know -- I don't see on the English version a

 6     transcription of this handwritten note, or am I missing something?

 7             MR. THOMAS:  You're right, Your Honour, that doesn't appear to

 8     have been translated.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We would like to have it, please.

10             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, I'll arrange for that to be done, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Mr. Guy-Smith.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, I rose for that issue and also to request

14     that we identify the date of the document.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is not the 30th of September, 1995?

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, it is, Your Honour.  Only for purposes of

17     having a clear record so at a later point in time we are in a position to

18     rapidly deal with issues of when certain documents were created and the

19     effect of those.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             Yes, Mr. Thomas.

22             MR. THOMAS:  It's a tendered exhibit, sir; the record is

23     complete.  If my learned friend has concerns like that, he should reserve

24     those for cross-examination.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Cross-examination of?

Page 14428

 1             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, re-examination.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's true, except that we still need to have

 3     that handwritten part translated even though it is an admitted exhibit.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir, and I'll attend to that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Well, can we please have document P1270 on the

 7     screen.

 8        Q.   General, would you accept that it was by decisions issued by the

 9     Chief of the General Staff that materiel was supplied to the VRS and the

10     SVK?

11        A.   Pursuant to the decisions of the minister of defence, the army

12     sent assistance; that is how I would phrase it.

13        Q.   Well, listen to my question and tell me if you agree or disagree:

14     Would it be pursuant to decisions issued by General Perisic that materiel

15     would be sent by the VJ?

16        A.   Mr. Thomas, I shall reply to your question, but it has to be

17     precise.  The Chief of General Staff, once he makes a decision, he then

18     issues orders and commands.  His decision is one thing and an order or a

19     written order is something else.  It was on the basis of his orders that

20     the army then sent assistance or supplies.  The making of decisions is

21     another matter.

22        Q.   All right.  Well, let's look at the document on the screen, sir.

23             MR. THOMAS:  If we can scroll up a little bit on the screen,

24     Your Honours.

25        Q.   This is a decision issued by the commander of the 1st Army of the

Page 14429

 1     VJ for materiel to be provided to the 30th Personnel Centre.  If you look

 2     at the second paragraph, you'll see that that order is issued on the

 3     basis of the decision issued by the Chief of the General -- sorry, the

 4     General Staff of the VJ.

 5             Do you see that, sir?

 6        A.   I agree.

 7        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Can we please have P1272 on the screen.

 9        Q.   Again, sir, we have this document issued by the 1st Army for

10     materiel to be provided to the 30th Personnel Centre based on a decision

11     issued by the Chief of the General Staff of the the VJ,

12     21st of May, 1994.  Is that right?

13        A.   Is what right?  Whether it is the 22nd of May?  What was your

14     question exactly?

15        Q.   Is this document issued on the basis of a decision issued by the

16     Chief of the General Staff?

17        A.   Yes, so a lower command level issued an order pursuant to an

18     order of the Chief of the General Staff.

19        Q.   All right.  I want to move on to another topic, please, page 226

20     of your report, General.

21             MR. THOMAS:  And, Your Honours, that is at page 90 in the

22     English.  And page 85 in the B/C/S, Mr. Registrar.

23        Q.   Now, General, what you appear to have provided for us in this

24     section of your report is a comparative analysis between what was in the

25     reserves of the FRY and the other republics immediately after the

Page 14430

 1     break-up in 1992 and what remained in their reserves after the -- or

 2     during the implementation of the Dayton Agreement in 1996.

 3             You have graphically represented that in figure 22 and onwards.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  So perhaps we can go to the next page in each

 5     version in e-court, please, Mr. Registrar.

 6        Q.   If we look, first of all, at figure 22, just as a preliminary

 7     matter, obviously this representation does not take into account

 8     replenishment and depletion or use or appropriation of resources in

 9     between 1992 and 1996; is that right?

10        A.   That's right.  It just considers the initial level of stocks and

11     the final one.

12        Q.   If we go to the figure 23.  And because you've used the example

13     of tanks, let's use the example of tanks.  We see there that the FRY

14     tanks reserves decreased by 65.  Do we know where those went?

15        A.   I did not investigate where they went, but I suppose that over a

16     period of six years one -- a number of tanks were decommissioned and were

17     no longer in standard use.  How many, I cannot say.  But this is

18     something which normally happens.

19        Q.   Well, General Djokic, you've been examining this question of

20     FRY assistance to the RS and the RSK for us now for some time.  Do you

21     suppose that the 65 tanks can be explained by having been decommissioned

22     over that period?  Is that your explanation?  Is that your -- your expert

23     opinion on what is the most likely cause?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas, in fairness to the witness, the

25     witness said he didn't investigate what -- where they went, but he's

Page 14431

 1     given you an example of one of the means by which the tanks could have

 2     been disposed of.

 3             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honour, that's fair.

 4        Q.   General, that's fair.  For the sake of completeness though,

 5     General, we observe, don't we, that the Republika Srpska had left over

 6     after the conflict 30 more tanks than they had at the beginning of the

 7     conflict?

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter thinks that the witness said:

10     "That is correct."

11             MR. THOMAS:

12        Q.   Sir --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Djokic, please try to speak into the

14     microphone to ensure that the interpreters can hear you.

15             MR. THOMAS:

16        Q.   I want to look, sir, at the next table, figure 24.  Just while

17     that is coming up on the screen, sir, I want to ask you about the figures

18     that you have given for Croatia in these graphs.  Plainly you haven't

19     been able to distinguish between the RSK, which no longer existed in

20     1996, and the Croatian forces, so we just have Croatia as encompassing

21     both of those; is that right?

22        A.   In 1996, the Republic of Serbian Krajina did not exist, and the

23     peace agreement on the limitation of armaments referred to Croatia only.

24     What we are talking about are armaments or weaponry that existed within

25     the armed forces of Croatia, which was then in existence.

Page 14432

 1        Q.   If you look at the armoured personnel carriers chart that you've

 2     got there, plainly it demonstrates that the FRY were able to replenish

 3     their reserves of armoured personnel carriers during the period of the

 4     war; is that right?

 5        A.   That is what the figure shows, yes.

 6        Q.   If we look at figure 26, artillery weapons.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  That's on the next page in e-court, Mr. Registrar.

 8     Sorry, Mr. Registrar, the previous page in the English and the next page

 9     in the B/C/S.  Yes, thank you.  That's the right B/C/S page.  The

10     previous page in the English.

11        Q.   All right.  General, if we look at figure 26, this also shows

12     that the FRY was able to replenish its reserves of artillery weapons

13     between 1992 and 1996, wasn't it?

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   It also shows an increase in Republika Srpska artillery weapons

16     over the same period?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   We also have to consider losses that the RS may have suffered in

19     terms of its artillery weapons during that period, don't we?

20        A.   That is correct.

21        Q.   And we also have to consider incidents such as you described

22     yesterday where the RS provided artillery weapons to Croatia in exchange

23     for fuel?

24        A.   I mentioned artillery ammunition, not artillery pieces.

25        Q.   All right.  You're -- you were recorded, I think, as "artillery

Page 14433

 1     support and ammunition" yesterday.  Is that how you answered yesterday?

 2        A.   That is what I said, and that is correct.  Artillery support

 3     includes that for the needs of the Croatian forces, Serb pieces or

 4     RS pieces were used to target Muslim positions.  That is artillery

 5     support.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I understand.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Can we move to paragraph 234, please.  And that's at

 8     page 97, Your Honours, in the English.  Page 91 in the B/C/S,

 9     Mr. Registrar.

10        Q.   Now, General, this is really the part of your report where you

11     begin in earnest to draw some conclusions about what was actually

12     supplied by the VJ.  And if I understand paragraph 234, what you are

13     saying there is that you have for this process selected what you believe

14     to be the most credible documents, being the VJ combat readiness reports

15     for the years that you have set out there.  And by analysing these

16     particular documents, you draw the conclusion, at page -- at

17     paragraph 241, that based on an analysis of the primary tasks, it can be

18     concluded that the level of engagement in providing assistance to the VRS

19     and the SVK gradually decreased and that the main focus of activity

20     shifted in the direction of transformation and its own survival in

21     conditions of inadequate financing.

22             You analyse, also, the balances of the reserves, but I'll come

23     back to that.  Let's just begin with that particular topic, namely an

24     analysis of the tasks to see whether supplying the VRS and the SVK

25     remained on the agenda for the VJ and the FRY throughout the war.

Page 14434

 1             In paragraph 235 --

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Actually, Your Honours, I've been advised by my

 3     learned friends that in dealing with these documents we need to go into

 4     private session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

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Page 14435











11 Pages 14435-14437 redacted. Private session.















Page 14438

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24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 14439

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We'll take a break and come

 3     back at quarter to 11.00.  Court adjourned.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   General, I just want to revisit one matter.  We had a answer of

 9     yours that wasn't caught properly in the transcript.

10             MR. THOMAS:  And, Your Honours, I'm referring to page 21,

11     line 25.

12        Q.   And, General, we were looking at tanks, figure 23.  And, sir, I

13     asked you whether we can take it from your analysis that the

14     Republika Srpska had 30 more tanks available to them at the conclusion of

15     the conflict than they had at the beginning of the conflict, and I think

16     your answer was yes.

17        A.   Yes, they had 30 tanks more which had come from sources

18     unbeknownst to me.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you, General.

20             MR. THOMAS:  I'd like, please, to look at chart 30, which is on

21     page 101 of your report in the English and page 96, sir, in your version.

22        Q.   Now, you conducted two analyses from the VJ combat readiness

23     reports.  The first is analysis of reported tasks, and we've finished

24     talking about those.  The second was to look at the balances of reserves

25     that the VJ had at the conclusion of each year and to see what

Page 14440

 1     conclusions could be drawn from those.  So I want to look at figure 30,

 2     please.

 3             First of all, can you just assist us with some of the

 4     descriptions you've used in the chart.  The numbers on the left-hand side

 5     from 0 to 120, what do they represent, sir?

 6        A.   It is the percentage of war reserves levels compared to what is

 7     planned.

 8        Q.   And if we look at the red line, do I understand the red line to

 9     relate to infantry ammunition or small-arms ammunition?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   The middle --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Wait a minute, sorry.  That doesn't answer the

13     question.

14             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To say "correct" doesn't answer the question.

16             MR. THOMAS:  Okay.

17        Q.   Does the red line represent levels of infantry ammunition?

18        A.   The red line represents the level of reserves of infantry weapons

19     ammunition co-related with the planned level of reserves.

20        Q.   The blue line represents the same for artillery ammunition?

21        A.   The blue line represents the reserves level -- the actual

22     reserves levels of artillery ammunition co-related with the actual plans.

23        Q.   And the bottom line represents fuel and specifically diesel; is

24     that right?

25        A.   Those are the actual fuel reserve levels compared with those that

Page 14441

 1     had been planned.

 2        Q.   All right.  So if we look at your 1992 figures, sir, you have a

 3     level of infantry ammunition at 94 per cent of planned reserves.  My

 4     question, sir, is, Where did you get that information from?  I take it it

 5     came from the 1992 VJ combat readiness report?

 6        A.   That is right.  One of the parts of combat readiness reports is a

 7     table which indicates the levels of wartime reserves.

 8        Q.   All right.  And I take it those are the levels of wartime

 9     reserves at the end of the year to which the VJ combat readiness report

10     relates?

11        A.   That's right.  At the end of the year.

12        Q.   So the same for 1993?  Is the closing balance taken from the 1993

13     VJ combat readiness report?

14        A.   That is right.

15        Q.   Where did you get your 1994 figures from when there is no

16     VJ combat readiness report for 1994?

17        A.   That piece of information was extrapolated for the year 1994.  I

18     also compared that figure to the reports from lower-ranking technical

19     units.  As you know, we did not receive the 1994 overall combat readiness

20     of the VJ report, but I did receive reports from the levels of the armies

21     and the corps.  In any case, to make sure that the figure is at least

22     approximately correct, I added up all of those figures forwarded by the

23     lower-ranking units to come up with a total.

24        Q.   All right.  So I think we understand that 1994 are, at best,

25     estimated figures; is that right?

Page 14442

 1        A.   It is.

 2        Q.   And 1995 came from the 1995 combat readiness report?

 3        A.   Precisely.  That is the data taken from the table contained in

 4     the combat readiness report.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  Can we go into private session, please,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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Page 14443











11 Pages 14443-14448 redacted. Private session.















Page 14449

 1   (redacted)   [Confidentiality partially lifted by

 2             MR. THOMAS:  All right.  If we could have Exhibit P709 on the

 3     screen, please.  And perhaps if we could begin at page 5 of the English

 4     and page 4 in the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   There are a number of references, General, and I will take you

 6     through each of them one at a time.

 7             Now, General, you will see, and I direct your attention, please,

 8     to General Perisic's remarks on that page.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, can we go to the next page where -- in

10     the English, where General Perisic discusses the reserves.

11        Q.   Sir, do you see the reference where General Perisic says:

12             "Each day we are using up our reserves but we are not getting a

13     normal inflow of funds, and, secondly, we are helping the armies of the

14     republics of Serbian Krajina."

15             Do you see that reference, sir?

16        A.   I do.

17             MR. THOMAS:  The next reference I'd like to direct your

18     attention, please, is on page 6 of the B/C/S and page 8 of the English.

19        Q.   Do you see the paragraph, sir, that reads:

20             "I suggest that we either spend larger quantities" -- I'm sorry,

21     this is General Perisic continuing:

22             "I suggest that we either spend larger quantities of materiel

23     reserves or that the necessary resources be secured so that we do not go

24     below the minimum of troop reserves.  Otherwise, if war breaks out, the

25     following will happen:  We will not have ammunition, and the people will

Page 14450

 1     proclaim us incapable of doing what we do - I am thinking of us, the

 2     army - or that we are not extending military assistance to the republic

 3     of Serbian Krajina and Republika Srpska, or we need to provide the

 4     resources so that producers can produce."

 5             Do you see that reference, sir?  Okay.

 6             On page 9, which is page 7 in the B/C/S.  At the bottom,

 7     Mr. Bulatovic refers to a 36 billion dollar dinar [sic] outstanding debt

 8     for special-purpose production, covering what has been produced by

 9     special-purpose industry so far but which is owed by the VJ.

10             We then go to page 12, which is page 9 in the B/C/S.

11     Slobodan Milosevic states his agreement to a proposal, and Mr. Kontic

12     responds that this will be 80 billion dollars' worth of primary issue

13     because there is no other sources for the funding that is being sought.

14             If we go to page 15 in the English, and that would be page 11 in

15     the B/C/S.

16             Mr. Kontic warns against dumping 80 million [sic] dinar on the

17     market, or warns against issuing, or the effects of issuing

18     80 billion dinar.  There is then discussion about how to minimise the

19     inflationary impact of 80 billion dinar primary issue.  We see that at

20     page 16 of the English and page 12 of the B/C/S, where Mr. Kontic says:

21             "As far as item 2 is concerned, which is for funds for

22     special-purpose production, I suggest that we sit down with every company

23     and agree how to secure those funds for them.  What we need to do is

24     ensure that the funds have the smallest possible inflationary impact and

25     how they can be immediately reproduced in the form of new production."

Page 14451

 1             Item 1 which is the repayment of debt is the key item, is the --

 2     I'm sorry, item 1 is --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What page are you reading from?

 4             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry.  Page 16 at the B/C/S.  Now we're at the

 5     top of page -- I'm sorry, Your Honours, that's not the page that's on the

 6     screen.  Maybe I'm going too fast.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed you are.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Sorry.  Page 16 in English and page 12 in the B/C/S.

 9     All right.  Your Honours, it's the last two lines and then we move over

10     on to page 17.

11        Q.   "As far as item 2 is concerned, I suggest we sit down with every

12     company and agree how to secure those funds for them.  What we need to do

13     is to ensure that the funds have the smallest possible inflationary

14     impacts and how they can be immediately reproduced in the form of new

15     production.  Item 1 is the key item.  That's 40 to 50 billion which could

16     perhaps be issued by the end of the month."

17             And further down on that page Slobodan Milosevic expresses what

18     is essential here, and this is page 13 in the B/C/S:

19             "What is essential here is for the military industry to begin

20     operating.  General Perisic is right there; it is at a standstill now,

21     it's being financed in some way, but it is now" -- I think that should be

22     not.  "... but it is now operating.  In this way, it would begin

23     operating."

24             Now, General Djokic, do you have that passage in front of you in

25     the B/C/S?

Page 14452

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In the middle of that sentence, Slobodan Milosevic says:

 3             "It's being financed in some way, but it is ..."

 4             Either "now operating" or "not operating."  What does the B/C/S

 5     say?

 6        A.   It is being financed in some way, but it is not operating.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  "In this way," i.e., through the issue of the funds,

 8     "it would begin operating."

 9             MR. THOMAS:  I think we can go ultimately to the conclusions

10     which are at page 29 in the English and page 22 in the B/C/S.

11        Q.   We're at the bottom of the page in English, Your Honours,

12     Slobodan Milosevic says, at the conclusion of the discussion:

13             "So does this mean that the army is getting the money?"

14             MR. THOMAS:  And on the next page, please, Mr. Registrar, which

15     is page 22, still, in the B/C/S, but page 30 in the English.

16        Q.   So from the previous page, Slobodan Milosevic says:

17             "So does this mean that the army is getting the money?"

18             President Lilic replies:

19             "That's how I understand it."

20             And Mr. Kontic says:

21             "And the way we agreed" -- it should be -- we have "eliminated"

22     here, but I'll ask you about that.  "... from primary issue, and the

23     government will find a way how to do it.  So 40 remains in addition to 30

24     or 40.  The initial 40 has to be printed right away and for the rest

25     we'll discuss it at another meeting this week."

Page 14453

 1             And Mr. Kontic, at the bottom of the page, says the 40 million --

 2     sorry.  Mr. Milosevic asks Mr. Kontic:

 3             "When will the army get this money?"

 4             And Mr. Kontic says:

 5             "The 40 billion at once.  In the morning.  And the rest we'll sit

 6     down and wrap this up this week."

 7             And that represents the conclusion of that discussion.

 8             But this you will be familiar with, General, because you reviewed

 9     the SDC.  So you would accept that at a least at the end of October 1993

10     it was intended that VJ reserves be replenished from

11     special-purpose industry?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   All right.  Now, we know, also, that there was replenishment of

14     VJ reserves throughout 1995.

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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Page 14454











11 Pages 14454-14456 redacted. Private session.















Page 14457

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14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.

17             Yes, Mr. Thomas.

18             MR. THOMAS:

19        Q.   General, yesterday you discussed the financing of the VRS.  And

20     I'd like to refer you, please, to figure 33, which is on page 107 of your

21     report in English.  And it's at paragraph 272, sir, in your report.

22             Now, I have -- we'll just wait for that to come on the screen.

23             All right.  General, you discussed this graph yesterday.  I just

24     want some clarification on it, please.  Does this represent the amount

25     that the two parties contributed to the VRS budget?

Page 14458

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Does it represent funds that were actually provided directly to

 3     the VRS?

 4        A.   The red part on the left-hand side where it says RS government,

 5     those are the funds that went through the budget.  The blue part to the

 6     right, where it says municipalities, are the funds or means which went

 7     directly to the local units, bypassing the ministry and the -- and its

 8     budget.

 9        Q.   I understand.  So first of all we're looking at a period January

10     to August 1993.  Do we have any charts for the subsequent periods?

11        A.   This is the only document with specific data coming from the

12     Ministry of Defence of the RS.

13        Q.   Okay.  It represents the information provided by 55 per cent of

14     municipalities, so do I understand that your graph represents your

15     extrapolation from 55 per cent to 100 per cent?

16        A.   We have a precise piece of information here.  55 per cent of all

17     municipalities financed 70 per cent of all needs in materiel reserves of

18     the VRS.  If you take all of the municipalities into account, that is to

19     say 100, then the percentage would no longer be 70, but 82 per cent, with

20     the likelihood of plus or minus 1 per cent in terms of margin of error.

21     This is an exact piece of information.

22        Q.   Okay.  I understand.  Now, this represents funds given to the

23     VRS; is that right?

24        A.   These funds were used to equip the army in terms of materiel.

25        Q.   Just pause.  But what you're showing in this graph is the funds

Page 14459

 1     that were provided, not what was done with them?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If we look at -- anyway, let him answer.

 3             MR. THOMAS:

 4        Q.   Is that right, sir?

 5        A.   I'll read out what I wrote, and that is correct:

 6             "In the periods from" --

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... pause, sir.  That's -- your

 8     confirmation that it's correct is fine.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but when one reads paragraph 72, the last

10     sentence, it says, on page 106:

11             "In 1993, the RS Ministry of Defence asked all municipalities for

12     data on the sources which they had given to the army, whether financial

13     resources or material ones."

14             So I'm not quite sure whether this 70 per cent represents both

15     financial and material or only financial?

16             MR. THOMAS:

17        Q.   Sir, can you answer Judge Moloto's query?

18        A.   Your Honour, in the report of the Ministry of Defence of the RS

19     it states that these resources also include compensations paid out to the

20     soldiers of the VRS as well as materiel support.

21        Q.   All right.  But the --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. THOMAS:

24        Q.   So that we're clear, the graph doesn't take into account what it

25     might have been given by the FRY?

Page 14460

 1        A.   It encompasses that as well because they say that the government

 2     of the RS provided resources amounting to 30 per cent.  Everything that

 3     came through the RS government is included therefore.

 4        Q.   Your graph does not include what the VRS was given by the FRY?

 5        A.   This particular figure does not include it because it was not

 6     provided as such in their figures.  It wasn't up to me to try and make

 7     the distinction between the two issues at stake.  I only used the

 8     information from their reports.  What came from the government amounted

 9     to 30 per cent of all resources.

10        Q.   I understand, General, thank you.

11             All right.  Sir, I'd like to go just briefly now to your

12     conclusion on assistance, which is at paragraph 293, which is at

13     page 116.  Or a conclusion.  Which is at page -- sorry, 109 in your copy,

14     sir.

15             Now, you state in that paragraph:

16             "It may be claimed with a high degree of confidential that the

17     assistance given from the surplus of the Yugoslav Army was small in scope

18     during the period 1993 to 1995 since supplies for the Yugoslav Army had

19     almost completely stopped due to insufficient budgetary funds while

20     strategic war reserves did not decrease significantly."

21             All right.  There's several elements to that conclusion.  We've

22     talked about -- we've spoken about this issue of surplus, and we've

23     spoken about the changes in war reserves through replenishment.  And what

24     I want to look at now is your assertion that supplies for the

25     Yugoslav Army had almost completely stopped.

Page 14461

 1             MR. THOMAS:  If it we go back to paragraph 290, subparagraph (a).

 2        Q.   You assert that the scope of assistance did not exceed

 3     10 per cent of needs for small-arms ammunition, 8.11 per cent for

 4     1993 maximum and 12 per cent for artillery ammunition.  And you have

 5     drawn those conclusions from the tables that you have prepared, which are

 6     figure 39 and figure 40; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   Now, this -- in figure 39 and figure 40, you have a pink line

 9     which you have designated "VRS needs."  What are VRS needs?  What does

10     that line represent?

11        A.   The needs of the VRS amounted to the quantities of ammunition

12     spent in 1994.  And we have precise data on that.  In their report, it is

13     stated that they used up 5.200-plus pieces of artillery ammunition --

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... pause, sir.  Pause, sir.

15     All I asked was what the line represented.  Okay?

16             Now, the critical line for our assessment of your conclusions in

17     this case is the yellow line, which is self-evident; it's what you assess

18     to be the actual VJ assistance provided during those years; is that

19     right?

20        A.   It is not.  It was not an assessment of mine.  I added up the

21     figures from all documents indicating any assistance lent.  I was not

22     making an assessment; I was doing my math.

23        Q.   All right.  If we go back to paragraph 289, we will see

24     subparagraph (a), (b), and (c).  Are those the figures that you used for

25     your figures 39 and figure 40?

Page 14462

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Which in turn is what you base paragraph 290 subparagraph (a) on?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   All right.  Well, we see from paragraph 289 that in order to make

 5     what you call an "accurate determination" of the extent of military

 6     assistance provided, the relevant available documents accompanying the

 7     receipt and hand-over of materiels - and you've listed them there - were

 8     analysed.

 9             "Based on the available data, it is possible to analyse this

10     assistance with regard to small-arms ammunition, artillery ammunition,

11     and fuel.  It has been established that the FRY provided the following

12     assistance to the RS from VJ storage facilities and the

13     Kragujevac Technical Repair and Maintenance Depot."

14             And there you list what you consider to be an accurate

15     determination for 1993, 1994, and 1995; is that correct?

16        A.   It is.

17        Q.   All right.

18             MR. THOMAS:  I'd like to go, Your Honours, into private session,

19     please.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14463











11 Pages 14463-14468 redacted. Private session.















Page 14469

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22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We'll take a break and come

Page 14470

 1     back at half past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   General, I want to stay with paragraph 289 of your report for a

 7     moment longer.  This time I'd like to go to your 1994 analysis where you

 8     consider an accurate determination of the extent of military assistance

 9     to be 193 tonnes of ammunition -- infantry ammunition and no artillery

10     ammunition; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.  The reference is to zero tonnes because there's not a

12     single document attesting to the deliveries of any artillery ammunition

13     in the course of that particular year.

14        Q.   All right.  Well, we'll examine that in a moment.  Again this is

15     based on your review of the documents we see in footnote 103; correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   Do you know how many of those documents listed in footnote 103

18     even relate to 1994?

19        A.   Not sure.  I know what the overall number of documents which I

20     received and which I perused was which could be of interest.  There was a

21     total of around 470 documents that you submitted to me.

22        Q.   See, General, not a single one of the documents you've listed in

23     footnote 103 even reference 1994, so how do we assess your accurate

24     determination in subparagraph B when you haven't listed the documents

25     you've relied on?

Page 14471

 1        A.   Distinguished Mr. Thomas, I have cited all the 470 documents

 2     which I had in my hands which had to do with materiel support and

 3     potential deliveries.  Why they were not in the footnote in this reports,

 4     I don't know, but I cited the precise documents from number so and so to

 5     number so and so and I stand by this.  I received the complete

 6     documentation from the Defence team.

 7        Q.   Well, who was responsible for putting the citations into your

 8     report, sir?

 9        A.   I assume that the changes relative to my point of departure could

10     have occurred in a number of instances, perhaps in the translation,

11     because I specifically stated P number so and so through number so and so

12     and I cited all the documents.  I still have all of these documents on a

13     CD, and they are all stored on it.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could the B/C/S version be helpful?  Maybe it has

15     more documents in the footnote than here, because the witness says it

16     might have happened in the translation.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.  Those are conveniently already on the

18     screen, Your Honour.

19        Q.   General, do you see your footnote 103 in the B/C/S version, first

20     of all?

21             MR. THOMAS:  No, you were in the right place, Mr. Registrar, with

22     the one that was on page.

23        Q.   Do you see footnote 103 in both versions on the screen, sir?

24        A.   I do, and they refer to about 20 documents.  Let me not count

25     them.  I studied about 470 documents plus, that had been submitted to me.

Page 14472

 1     Of these 470-plus documents, some 200 related to the deliveries of

 2     weapons, so that I actually added up all the documents that I received.

 3        Q.   Yes.  We understand that that's what you did, sir, but do you

 4     accept that none of them related to 1994 are cited anywhere in your

 5     report; is that correct?

 6        A.   I cannot say because I do not know what each individual document

 7     specifically refers to.  If you tell me P577, for instance, I certainly

 8     do not know what year that relates to.

 9        Q.   General, that's fair, but can we agree that if they are not in

10     footnote 103, you haven't cited them elsewhere in your report, for the

11     purpose of your conclusion in paragraph 289?

12        A.   I agree it should be stated here from the 5th to the 5th in order

13     to encompass all the documents.  I agree there completely.  That would be

14     fair.

15        Q.   All right.  Well, let's have a look at this accurate

16     determination of yours for 1994.  I want you just to bear in the back of

17     your mind the figure that you have of 193 tonnes of infantry ammunition

18     and zero artillery ammunition.

19             MR. THOMAS:  Now, I'd like to have P1214 on the screen, please,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And before we go to 1214, what do we do with

22     7053D?

23             MR. THOMAS:  Sorry, Your Honours.  Let me just refresh my memory

24     as to what that is.  Sounds like a -- I thought that was actually

25     tendered already, Mr. Registrar.  No?  I'm sorry.  My apologies.  If that

Page 14473

 1     could be tender as an exhibit, Your Honour, please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm reminded by Mr. Registrar that we don't have a

 3     translation for that document so it's going to be MFI'd.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And that it might need to be under seal.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, it will, sir, thank you.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so admitted.  Marked for identification and

 8     kept under seal.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  The document shall be

10     assigned Exhibit P2944, marked for identification, kept under seal.

11     Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Now, if we could have a look, please, Mr. Registrar,

14     at P1214.

15        Q.   General, you are familiar with this document because you have

16     reviewed it and cited it elsewhere in your report but you have not for

17     the purposes of paragraph 289.  It is the annual financial statement for

18     the plan of tasks and financing of the VRS for 1994, issued by the

19     Army of Republika Srpska.

20             MR. THOMAS:  What I'd like to do, please, is look at page 19 in

21     the B/C/S -- page 19 in both documents, please.  I wonder if, to begin

22     with, Mr. Registrar, we can just blow up the right-hand side of the

23     document so that we can read at least half of the document comfortably,

24     including the title.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Now, sir, you will have seen this document, presumably, as part

Page 14474

 1     of your investigation for your report?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   It is as it is entitled: a "Statement of the Realisation of

 4     Planned Procurement of Ammunition in 1994."  Specifically, this details

 5     what was procured by the VRS during 1994, doesn't it?

 6        A.   Yes, it does.

 7        Q.   If we go to the title in the table that says, "Received Through

 8     the Main Staff of the VRS."  We then have a further breakdown of figures.

 9     We have items received from the RS government, both by the number of

10     pieces for each item and by the monetary value, and then we have a column

11     that shows what was received from the VJ.  Do you see that, sir?

12        A.   Yes, I see that.

13        Q.   And to the right-hand side of that column, we have a total of

14     what was received for each item during 1994.  Do you see that, sir?

15        A.   I do.

16             MR. THOMAS:  So that we know what is on the left-hand side of the

17     document, can we please scroll, Mr. Registrar, to the left of both

18     versions.

19        Q.   And what we have on the left-hand side is identification by name

20     of various types of ammunitions, explosives, and other material; is that

21     right?

22        A.   That is right.

23             MR. THOMAS:  So that we can obtain a quick overview of this

24     document, can we just scroll through the next couple of pages,

25     Mr. Registrar.  And back to the first page.

Page 14475

 1        Q.   All right.  So, let's just begin with the very first entry.  And

 2     don't worry, we're not going to go through all of them, sir.

 3             MR. THOMAS:  But if we could start with the left-hand side,

 4     Mr. Registrar.

 5        Q.   The first entry that we see -- I'm sorry, the second entry that

 6     we see, entry number 2, shows a 7.62 millimetre infantry round; is that

 7     right?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you school us, Mr. Thomas, those of us who

 9     know nothing about the military, how do you determine it's an infantry

10     round?

11             MR. THOMAS:  I'm putting that to him, sir.  It's identified as a

12     7.62 millimetre bullet.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, and I understand that.

14             MR. THOMAS:  Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the infantry round, where do you pick up the

16     infantry round from that description?

17             MR. THOMAS:  Just from what I've been told about calibres, sir,

18     so I'm getting him to confirm that it is an infantry round.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are in your hands, and the witness.

20             MR. THOMAS:  Okay.

21        Q.   What we have is item number 2, 7.62 millimetre bullet; do you see

22     that, sir?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   And this comes within the category of what you describe as

25     infantry ammunition or small-arms ammunition; is that right?

Page 14476

 1        A.   That's right.  That's right.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Djokic, are you able to tell us what PAP, AP,

 3     and PM stand for?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are types of rifles for which

 5     such ammunition is used.  Semi-automatic rifle, automatic rifle, and

 6     light machine-gun.  Machine-gun, yeah.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             MR. THOMAS:

 9        Q.   Just for our own knowledge should we need to refer to this

10     document at some later time, what denotes infantry ammunition and what

11     denotes artillery ammunition?

12        A.   Small arms or infantry ammunition is ammunition which is used for

13     the needs of the infantry, namely to be used with assets such as the

14     semi-automatic rifle and automatic rifle, a light machine-gun, et cetera.

15        Q.   How can we tell by looking at a particular description of an item

16     whether it's artillery ammunition or infantry ammunition?

17        A.   On the basis of the calibre.

18        Q.   Can you please explain that for us, sir?

19        A.   If you look at this table, the 7.62 designation and then the

20     7.9 mm, that belongs to infantry ammunition.  The 12.7 mm calibre, that

21     is anti-aircraft ammunition.  Then when you go a bit more down, the

22     60 mm, the 62 mm, and the calibres above that, those fall within the

23     category of artillery ammunition, although some of them are for

24     anti-armoured combat.  But generally that is artillery ammunition.

25        Q.   All right.  All right.  Going back to entry number 2, 7.62

Page 14477

 1     millimetre rounds.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Can we please scroll across, Mr. Registrar, to see

 3     the next couple of columns in the English and also in the B/C/S.  All

 4     right.

 5        Q.   Look at the second entry.  Have you got, sir, the column "from

 6     the VJ"?

 7        A.   Uh-huh.

 8        Q.   Okay.  We see, in the second entry down, 14.320.600 rounds, which

 9     would equate to in excess of 200 tonnes.  Do you agree?

10        A.   You can say that one round weighs 30 grams.  It is possible.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, the two of you are above me.  How do you

12     determine 200 tonnes and how do you determine 30 grams from this table?

13             MR. THOMAS:  All right.  Maybe I can explain, Your Honour.  All

14     we can tell from the table is that in excess of 14 million rounds have

15     been supplied.  I've put a proposition to him about the tonnage which he

16     has only been able to reply by saying that you can assume that one round

17     weighs 30 grams.  So I'll put -- I'm attempt to further clarify that,

18     sir, with my calculator.

19        Q.   429 tonnes at 30 grams.  Would you accept that, sir?

20        A.   Why not.

21        Q.   All right.  So, if that single shipment, the first entry we've

22     looked at, comes to 429 tonnes just on its own, go back to your accurate

23     determination in paragraph 289, paragraph (b), what's the total you've

24     got for all of 1994 small-arms ammunition?  What's the total you have

25     there?

Page 14478

 1        A.   First of all, we cannot say what the overall quantity was --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... pause, sir.  Pause, sir.

 3     That's not my question.  My question is:  What figure did you come up

 4     with for your accurate determination?

 5        A.   My figure for 1994 is 193.8 tonnes.

 6        Q.   Well, let's scroll down a little more.  In the line underneath,

 7     we have another 2 million rounds.  Three lines below that we have a shade

 8     under 8 million rounds.  Put those two together, you get another

 9     300 tonnes.  Now, when you cast your eye over this document, you're

10     getting something well in excess of 1.000 tonnes.  Now, I'm not going to

11     sit here and calculate it all for you and show you how we got there, but

12     you can see already, sir, just with the first few lines of these

13     analysis, your figures are grossly underneath what is in here.

14             My question, sir, is -- this is a document I selected because,

15     first of all, it gives the information we want, but, secondly, this is a

16     document that you yourself have relied on as credible for other aspects

17     of your report.  My question is, why you have not mentioned this document

18     in terms of your assessment of what was supplied to the VRS by the VJ in

19     1994?

20        A.   Distinguished Mr. Thomas, the quantities of ammunition the

21     Yugoslav Army delivered to the VRS, I gave them exactly as they had been

22     calculated on the basis of orders, on the basis of materiel receipts, on

23     the basis of consignment notes, bills of ladings, everything which

24     attends such transactions in other words.  In order to avoid any

25     confusion, let me tell you this:  This document is incorrect in a detail.

Page 14479

 1     Can I explain what is incorrect in it?

 2        Q.   Not before you answer my question, sir.  My question is:  Why

 3     have you not mentioned this document --

 4        A.   [No interpretation]

 5        Q.   Just pause -- in calculating your very accurate determination in

 6     paragraph 289?

 7        A.   Because this document does not fall within materiel documents.

 8     According to the rules of materiel operations in the Army of Yugoslavia,

 9     materiel documents, receipts, bills of ladings, delivery sheets are all

10     materiel documents which attend materiel transactions.  This is a report

11     which, by the way, I have to say outright is not complete.

12        Q.   All right.  So I think we now understand each other.

13     Paragraph 289 of your report is not an accurate determination of the

14     extent of military assistance provided to the RS by the FRY.

15     Paragraph 289 is the results of you adding up materiel lists that you

16     were supplied by the Defence and delivery sheets that you were supplied

17     by the Defence without reference to any other documents.  Is that a

18     fairer way to describe your findings in paragraph 289?

19        A.   On the basis of these documents which have been specified, I have

20     given exact figures.  The mathematics of it is simple --

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... stop, sir.

22        A.   -- I added up everything --

23        Q.   Stop, sir.  You've told us this seven or eight times.  We

24     understand that.  What I'm asking you is this:  Your paragraph 289 is not

25     an accurate determination of the extent of military assistance.  What it

Page 14480

 1     is, is the results of you adding up materiel lists and delivery slips

 2     which you were supplied by the Defence.  Is that a fairer

 3     characterisation of your findings in paragraph 289?

 4        A.   That is true.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On that point, may I ask a question, Mr. Thomas.

 6     How much longer are you likely to be with the witness?

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Maybe 10 or 15 minutes, sir.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. THOMAS:

10        Q.   Was it in your interests, sir, to minimise the extent of

11     assistance that was provided by the VJ to the VRS?

12        A.   Absolutely not.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Can we have D505 on the screen, please.

14        Q.   While it's coming up, General, this is your CV.  Can you confirm

15     for us that from 1994 onwards you were a member of the General Staff of

16     the VJ?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   The very institution providing illegal and secret assistance to

19     the VRS and the SVK; do you accept that?

20        A.   I do accept that it provided assistance, but I don't want to go

21     into the nature of it and your characterisation of it.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And on that, Mr. Thomas, I -- I would agree that

23     it is -- it was secret, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by it was

24     illegal.

25             MR. THOMAS:

Page 14481

 1        Q.   Was it in contravention of the embargoes, sanctions placed upon

 2     the FRY?

 3        A.   I can only speak to what was under my authority.  What I did was

 4     not secret.  And we didn't use any secret procedures.  I could put forth

 5     proposals which were then followed up.

 6        Q.   Well, as chief of the air force and air defence technical

 7     department, part of the duties of that department was to make decisions

 8     and put forward proposals on the use of logistics that came within the

 9     air force and air defence sector, wasn't it?

10        A.   Partially.

11        Q.   Well, let me ask you this:  Were you yourself personally involved

12     in providing assistance to the VRS?  You personally?

13        A.   I did not take part in providing assistance, but I did take part

14     in the overall process of co-operation with the Army of Republika Srpska.

15             MR. THOMAS:  Can we have P2722 on the screen, please.

16        Q.   We've spoken this morning, sir, of the process whereby the VRS

17     would request assistance from the VJ and how the heads of the various

18     technical administrations would be involved in providing proposals and

19     completing the process for that assistance to be provided.  What we have

20     on the screen, sir, is a request from the Republika Srpska army.

21             MR. THOMAS:  If we could look at the signature line, please, in

22     the English.  At the bottom of the document.  Thank you.

23        Q.   We can see that it is signed by General Mladic.  It is addressed

24     to the Yugoslav Army General Staff, personally to the chief, requesting

25     the sending of an expert assistance team.  "Please authorise the sending

Page 14482

 1     of an expert team headed by Colonel Ivan Djokic ..."  that's you; is that

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   "... for consultations and to resolve problems with the rockets

 5     and modified anti-aircraft defence equipment."

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   The report or the request tends to evidence some earlier dealings

 8     in the next paragraph, doesn't it: "He's familiar with the essence of the

 9     problem and is willing to help"; was that your position?

10        A.   That's what the document states, but I didn't have this document

11     and I'm not familiar with the correspondence at higher levels.

12        Q.   Well, let's see if you were involved in the decision-making

13     process.

14             MR. THOMAS:  Can we scroll up to the top of the document, please.

15        Q.   You see the handwritten writing by General Perisic on the top

16     right-hand corner of the document?  So the request went to you, didn't

17     it?

18        A.   No.  It says give it to Colonel Djokic to deal with it.  So it

19     wasn't sent to me but to my boss.

20        Q.   I'm sorry, are you the Colonel Djokic that they're referring to?

21        A.   I am the person in question, but it says:  "To be given to

22     Colonel Djokic."  So my boss was supposed to receive this and then

23     forward to me to draft a proposal.

24        Q.   All right --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's get quickly to the -- the question really

Page 14483

 1     is:  Your boss passed it on to you to attend to, didn't he?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 3             MR. THOMAS:

 4        Q.   And did you go?

 5        A.   I did.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Can we have P22 -- sorry, 2723.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, there's an explanation,

 8     because you didn't want to learn the whole of it.  You asked whether this

 9     was assistance to the VRS, but as a matter of fact, things were a bit

10     different than that.

11             The assets mentioned here were modified by the VJ in 1994, and

12     those modified assets, when tested, presented certain problems with

13     regard to reliability, use.  The asset in question is called

14     Koseva [phoen], which was introduced in operative use with all the

15     problems that existed.  Towards the end of 1994, a similar asset was used

16     by the VRS.  I presume that an arrangement had been reached to try and

17     test it in operational use so as to deal with the problems our system

18     had.  I know that we modified our weapons system following that, removing

19     a few flaws that had existed, and I believe that can be illustrated by

20     some documents.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Djokic, let me remind you something.  You may

22     have heard me earlier asking Mr. Thomas how long he is going to be with

23     you.  It's Friday, I'm sure you'd like to go back home; and if you give

24     short answers to questions and try to listen carefully to what is being

25     asked, you are likely to go home quicker.  With these kind of long

Page 14484

 1     answers, you are likely going to be here next week.  So ...

 2             MR. THOMAS:  All right.  Can we have -- thank you, Your Honour.

 3     Could we have 2723 on the screen, please.

 4        Q.   Sir, this is another request from the VRS, signed by

 5     General Mladic, addressed to General Perisic personally.  It is a request

 6     for -- I'm sorry, I'm looking at the wrong document.  No, it's a request

 7     for six nitrogen tanks for use with surface-to-air rockets.  Now, that's

 8     something that would have come within the technical department of the air

 9     force and air defence; is that right?

10        A.   It is.

11        Q.   Does that explain, sir, why, at the top of the document in

12     General Perisic's handwriting, he has written, "check also with Djokic"?

13        A.   It says "Vucinic," who was my boss, and then, "check with Djokic"

14     because this was within my remit.

15             MR. THOMAS:  Can we please have P2746 on the screen.

16        Q.   This is another request -- I'm sorry, sir, this is another

17     request, yes, from General Mladic, again addressed to the Chief of the

18     General Staff; this time for air-bombs.  And at the very bottom of the

19     document -- oh, no, before I ask you that.  Again, that -- the supply of

20     air-bombs would have been something that came within the purview of the

21     technical administration of the air force and air defence sector; is that

22     right?

23        A.   It is not correct.  It was within the competence of the

24     aeronautical administration.

25             MR. THOMAS:  So let's go to the bottom of the document in English

Page 14485

 1     and also in B/C/S.

 2        Q.   If that is so, sir, can you explain to me why the chief of

 3     cabinet, who presumably knows these things, has addressed the air force

 4     and air defence sector, saying that the Chief of the General Staff has

 5     approved that the VRS for this to be resolved as soon as possible in

 6     asking for the response of the air force and anti-aircraft defence

 7     sector?

 8        A.   That was standard procedure because the RV and PVO sector is

 9     subordinated to the Chief of Staff.  The RV and PVO sector has its

10     various administration, such as air force administration, anti-aircraft

11     units administration, et cetera.  The RV and PVO sector was superior to

12     those administrations and I worked in one such administration.

13        Q.   Okay.  Sir, what is your relationship with General Miletic who

14     stood trial here as part of those accused of Srebrenica crimes?

15        A.   General Miletic is a friend of mine whom I had met when I worked

16     in the aeronautical technical institute.

17        Q.   And do you remain firm friends, sir?

18        A.   I believe so.  I asked for an approval to visit him.

19        Q.   General Miletic, you will know, was sentenced to 19 years'

20     imprisonment for his part in the crimes at Srebrenica.  And for his

21     defence did you provide a statement describing him or referring to his

22     honesty, profound morality, and integrity?

23        A.   That is what I know about him from being close to him privately.

24        Q.   Well, sir, how do you reconcile that with the fact that he is a

25     convicted war criminal?

Page 14486

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do believe the matter is not yet resolved and

 2     the case is on appeal.  And I also don't think the question as put is

 3     proper.  Two individuals being friends, irrespective of the errors of

 4     one, does not necessarily mean they still cannot be held with certain

 5     regard.  If that was not the case, then the human race would probably not

 6     have much do with each other at all.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  That was a nice speech, sir, and I can rephrase my

 9     question.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

11             MR. THOMAS:

12        Q.   Does Mr. Miletic's conviction for his part in the crimes at

13     Srebrenica change your view of his profound morality?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How have you changed it, Mr. Thomas?

15     Mr. Guy-Smith -- part of Mr. Guy-Smith's objection is that the matter is

16     still under appeal; it's not finalised.  But you're still going back to

17     the conviction, which is still under appeal.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, I accept it's still under appeal, but, of

19     course, he's been convicted.  So at the moment that is his status.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's a curious reading of impeachment.  If one

21     is -- if this is being used for impeachment, which it clearly is, then

22     the issue still remains that with regard to what the ultimate outcome

23     will be of Mr. Miletic's conviction, it is an open question.  If it was a

24     final conviction, then there would be a different argument.  But it's

25     not.

Page 14487

 1             MR. THOMAS:  I can ask a different question.

 2        Q.   Sir, do you still hold the view that General Miletic is a man of

 3     profound morality?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   Do you accept that thousands of Bosnian Muslims were executed at

 6     Srebrenica and forcibly transferred by the VRS?

 7        A.   I understand that.  But I also understand that General Miletic's

 8     wife --

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... pause, sir.

10        A.   -- is Muslim, and I associate with her frequently.

11        Q.   Pause, sir.  I'm not asking you about General Miletic.  I'm just

12     asking you if you accept that several thousand Bosnian Muslims were

13     executed and forcibly transferred by the VRS at Srebrenica.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  He has answered that question.

15             MR. THOMAS:  He said he understands that.

16        Q.   Does he accept that?

17        A.   I accept that there were crimes committed during the conflict in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina that were committed.  That is my understanding of the

19     problem.

20        Q.   Is that the extent of your acceptance, sir?

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  The manner in which the question is

22     asked, it seems as if Mr. Thomas has become a priest and he's asking for

23     a confession.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure what to make of that statement,

25     Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 14488

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, when he says "is that the extent of your

 2     acceptance," the witness has said:  "I accept that there were crimes

 3     committed during the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina that were committed.

 4     That is the [sic] understanding of my [sic] problem."  That's a

 5     relatively expansive answer.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say he's asking like a priest seeking a

 7     confession --

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Is that the extent of --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO: -- and you stop there, I'm not quite sure what you

10     are saying.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry.  I was referring to the statement, "is

12     that the extent of your acceptance."  His statement is all in -- is

13     indeed all inclusive.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thanks for the comment.

15             Yes, Mr. Thomas, go ahead.

16             MR. THOMAS:

17        Q.   So, sir, your answer that you accept that there were crimes

18     committed during the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina, is that the extent

19     to which you are prepared to acknowledge the crimes at Srebrenica?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What other extent do you want from the witness,

21     Mr. Thomas?

22             MR. THOMAS:  Sir, I asked him if he accept -- very specifically,

23     if he accepted that several thousand Bosnian Muslim men were executed and

24     forcibly transferred by the VRS.  He would not accept that.  All he would

25     say is that there were crimes committed in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 14489

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And we are all clear on the difference between you

 2     and the witness.  Now, are you able to answer the question, sir?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the question itself

 4     I was asked whether I was aware that several thousand --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm going to

 6     stop -- I'm going to stop you.  I'm stopping you right there.  You were

 7     asked if you accept that several thousand Muslims were murdered in

 8     Srebrenica.  You said you understand that.  The question is -- you

 9     understand that crimes were committed.

10             Now, the question -- the next question is:  Do you -- is that the

11     extent of your acceptance, that only crimes were committed; and are you

12     not prepared to accept that several thousand Muslims were killed?

13             Now, sir, your answer is going to be:  Yes, I do accept; no, I

14     don't accept.  Don't elaborate.  Please.  We want to finish quickly.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do accept.

16             MR. THOMAS:

17        Q.   Sir, we've' heard evidence in this trial about modified

18     air-bombs.  How air-bombs were designed to be dropped from the air but

19     they were modified to be able to be launch -- be launched from the

20     ground.  And we've heard about their use and the consequences of their

21     use.  You were the architect of that modification, were you not?

22        A.   That is not true.  I was a member of the team, and I was in

23     charge of a single segment.  There was a whole team that worked on

24     modifications.

25        Q.   Well, General Perisic considered you to be the architect of that

Page 14490

 1     modification, didn't he?

 2        A.   Well, if he did, then he was wrong.

 3        Q.   Well, let's have a look at that.

 4             Do you accept, sir, that you travelled in December 1994 to Bosnia

 5     to supervise the launching of air-bombs by the VRS?

 6        A.   I was there, but not to oversee the launching.  I had not been

 7     trained for that, and it does not fall within anything I have ever done.

 8        Q.   Well, what was your role?

 9        A.   I am an air force technical engineer.  I have a technical

10     background.  I cannot oversee any launching.  I can only control the

11     technical aspects of an asset.  The role we had at the time - I don't

12     know whether it was December, but in any case in late 1994 - was to

13     pin-point the operational problems of those assets so as to be able to

14     deal with similar problems that we had with our own assets of that kind.

15     There is documentation in existence to confirm that.

16        Q.   Well, your role -- well, what was your role, sir, in the design

17     of this modified air-bomb, or in the concept?

18        A.   The role the sector headed by me was in the institute to design

19     the electronic part of the system designed to ignite the engines.

20        Q.   Sir, when were you promoted to chief of the air force technical

21     administration?

22        A.   In 1994.

23        Q.   What was your next promotion, sir?

24        A.   The next promotion was in 2000.  I was appointed chief of the

25     operational logistics administration.

Page 14491

 1        Q.   Did you have any change in rank, sir, between 1994 and 2000?

 2        A.   I was promoted to the rank of general in 1997.  However, it was

 3     one year later than would otherwise have been, had the standard time

 4     durations been observed.

 5        Q.   All right.  So I want to talk about that 1997 promotion and the

 6     path taken to it.  Are you aware -- well, your promotion would have been

 7     discussed at the VJ collegium, collegium of the General Staff?

 8        A.   That is clear.

 9        Q.   You are aware, on the 28th of October, 1995, that General Perisic

10     said the following of you:

11             "I know him personally.  He is a very intuitive man who

12     successfully designed and modified an aircraft bomb to fit the launcher.

13     He is an exceptional personality but alas he never got a doctor's degree.

14     Once he gets that, we can decree him as well."

15             I have a number of questions.  First of all, sir, did you get

16     your doctorate?

17        A.   Yes, I received my Ph.D. in 1996.

18        Q.   And then you were appointed to -- promoted to general?

19        A.   No, I was not.  Following the proposal of

20     General Ljubisa Velickovic, I remained in the same rank for another year,

21     although I had the right to be promoted immediately following my Ph.D.

22        Q.   No, we understand that, sir.  But subsequent upon getting your

23     Ph.D. you were promoted to general?

24        A.   That is right.

25        Q.   Well, "He is a very intuitive man who successfully designed and

Page 14492

 1     modified an aircraft bomb to fit the launcher."  Does that describe what

 2     you did?

 3        A.   It does, and it's consistent with my previous answer that we

 4     modified the electric -- the electronic system for the ignition of the

 5     engine in my sector.

 6        Q.   Once you had, or your department, come up with this concept and

 7     after you had made the necessary modifications, did you monitor how these

 8     modified air-bombs were being used and their effect?

 9        A.   From the moment when the technical service hands over an asset,

10     it no longer supervises it.  It is done by the artillery administration.

11     Following the development of the -- of an asset in charge of its further

12     supervision is the artillery administration.  And if it feels that it is

13     required, they can contact us for any further remedial action if that is

14     what -- if that is necessary.

15        Q.   General Djokic, you are an engineer.  You invent a modification

16     for a weapon.  It is sent to the VRS.  It is being deployed in combat.

17     Are you telling us that notwithstanding your obvious professional

18     interest in knowing how it was being used, notwithstanding that, you

19     never found out how it was being used or its effects?

20        A.   Mr. Thomas, the ordnance which we modified was not sent to

21     Republika Srpska.  After our development, that asset was handed over to

22     the artillery administration of the VJ and has been in use in the

23     Yugoslav Army to this day.  I don't know what dispatching are you talking

24     about.  It was not sent anywhere.  It is within the VJ artillery

25     administration as one of its standard assets.

Page 14493

 1        Q.   Well, you would have been aware, sir, that modified air-bombs

 2     were being used by the VRS?

 3        A.   Yes, I was aware of that.

 4        Q.   All right.  Did you have any knowledge at the time in what

 5     capacity and what effect they were having?

 6        A.   As regards to the actual effect of those bomb, I'm quite aware of

 7     their potential effect on the basis of technical data and on the bases of

 8     my own knowledge of this asset.  It is primarily designed to target

 9     fortified objectives, pill boxes, bunkers, bridges, and what have you.

10     Such a designed asset has the characteristics required to target such

11     targets.

12        Q.   Are you aware, sir, that on the 26th of November, 1997, again in

13     discussion regarding you and your promotion, General Perisic said this:

14             "In that sense, he is also an innovator, because something that

15     could not have been used in this auditorium, he made it in such a way

16     that it is being used from the ground.  And everything went topsy-turvy

17     whenever it was used, but that's just among us."

18             Firstly, were you aware of General Perisic holding that view?

19        A.   This is the first time I hear of this.

20        Q.   Did you yourself ever express concerns to General Perisic about

21     the problems that might be associated with using modified air-bombs?

22        A.   I reported to the responsible administration which is the

23     artillery administration about all problems, and I did so in writing.

24     And it was their duty to caution General Perisic about any potential

25     problems.  This was standard procedure, and that's what I followed.

Page 14494

 1        Q.   Now, you've talked about the sorts of targets that it's designed

 2     to attack.  Is it a feature of modified air-bombs that they cannot be

 3     guided and that they are essentially inaccurate?

 4        A.   It is true that this asset does not have the facility for

 5     guiding.  But as regards precision, precision from the air and from the

 6     ground is more or less the same.  The median error in the worst of

 7     conditions can be about 50 metres.

 8        Q.   Well, is it an appropriate weapon to use in urban areas where

 9     there are civilian -- Sarajevo for example?

10        A.   That asset was not at all planned nor designed to be used in

11     urban communities.

12        Q.   Were you aware that it was being used in urban communities?

13        A.   What I know derives from the reports that I read now which were

14     made about their use, and I am aware that they were used in this way,

15     which I considered to be totally inappropriate and wrong.

16        Q.   And did you voice those concerns at the time, sir?

17        A.   At that time, I had no information.  I didn't have this data that

18     you're now referring to.  But to go back to this, in order for anyone to

19     caution anybody else about the use of any assets that someone had to be

20     in charge of it.  And for the use of this asset, the only one in charge

21     was the artillery administration.  So it was the chief of the artillery

22     administration whose asset it was that had to caution the Chief of the

23     General Staff about the use of that asset which he introduced as part of

24     the weaponry arsenal and of its potential effects.

25        Q.   All right, General.

Page 14495

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  That concludes my

 2     cross-examination.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

 4             Mr. -- any re-examination, Mr. --

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, could we please have P2746 up on the screen.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you start, Mr. Guy-Smith, let me ask

 7     you the same question I asked Mr. Thomas:  How long are you likely to be

 8     with this witness?

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do not expect that I will be with the witness

10     for more than a half an hour, which exceeds the time of the day, which I

11     know -- I made some requests with both the usher and I spoke to your

12     Legal Officer about whether or not there would be a potential for us to

13     have an extended session today.  I don't know whether or not the Chamber

14     has received that information or not.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, but the Chamber only works on what it gets

16     as a formal request.  There was an indication that the parties might make

17     that request.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I could have jumped up and -- I didn't make

19     the request.  I'm making the request.  I don't know whether or not it's

20     feasible or not.  If it's not feasible, this is my problem:  My problem

21     is I'm scheduled to leave the jurisdiction to go attend to other matters.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the problem is that making the request at

23     this point in time, certain arrangements have to be made.  And I don't

24     know whether they will be made -- they can be made between now and

25     quarter to 2.00 and whether there is -- that staff is available to do

Page 14496

 1     that, you know.  There are a lot of people.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm confident there's been some inquiry in that

 3     regard.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am told that we might be able to sit until half

 7     past 3.00, assuming that everybody is available and agreeable to sitting.

 8     So you may go ahead, and we'll probably sit until half past 3.00.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, we may have to sit 15 bis.  That also

11     depends on the availability of everybody else.  I haven't, sort of,

12     inquired.  I'm not sure whether everybody else is available.

13             From the interpreters, is there any objection?

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I'm advised that everybody has been

16     consulted.  So we will sit until 3:30.

17             Before you carry on again Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm sorry to do this.

18             Mr. Thomas, apparently you quoted from pages 79 and 81, quoting

19     Mr. Perisic.  Can you please give sources of number and documents, if

20     possible, so that we know exactly what it is you were quoting.

21             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, I can, sir.  I don't have those with me

22     immediately, but I'll provide those.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

24             Mr. Guy-Smith.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Would you like me to proceed for the next five

Page 14497

 1     minutes?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you would, please.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we please have P2746 up on the screen.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

 5        Q.   Could you please tell us the date of this document.

 6        A.   The 7th of October, 1995.

 7        Q.   And with regard to the request for modified air-bombs, what is

 8     the request focused at?  And by that I'm referring to the language in the

 9     first two lines of the paragraph starting:  "In order ..."

10        A.   I'm not an expert on tactical use, but what is stated here is

11     that this asset is being requested in order to regain lost features in

12     the zone of responsibility or lost facilities in the zone of

13     responsibility of the Herzegovina Corps.

14        Q.   And with regard to the term "facilities," could you explain to us

15     in a military sense what lost facilities would entail?

16        A.   In the military sense, it means that you have lost a military

17     position that you had held, that the enemy has taken up positions in that

18     area, has taken over the area, and that now you wanted to regain the area

19     which you used to hold by some more efficient means.

20        Q.   There has been some discussion with regard to the accuracy or

21     inaccuracy of air-bombs in general.  First of all, what I'd like to

22     understand is, I believe on page 80 you indicated that air-bombs are a

23     standard asset of the VJ army to this day.  And that's at page 80,

24     line 17 through 20.

25             In order for a weapon to become a standard asset, what testing is

Page 14498

 1     required?

 2        A.   For an asset to become an official asset in using the VJ there

 3     are two kind of tests that it has to be subjected to.  The first are

 4     development tests which are conducted by the institute in charge of the

 5     assets' development.  And there are so-called admission tests, when all

 6     the requirements set before that particular asset have to be satisfied.

 7     Following this, a second test:  The asset is then received, admitted into

 8     the weaponry of the army via an order, and its use starts thence forth.

 9        Q.   With regard to the -- these assets as they relate to the VJ army,

10     do you know whether or not the procedure that you have just described was

11     performed?

12        A.   Absolutely.  There's not a single weapon, a single asset, in the

13     VJ that had not been subjected to the regular procedure.

14        Q.   With regard to those assets that were independently held by the

15     VRS, do you know what testing procedures they went through, if any?

16        A.   I can talk about that only on the basis of the documents which I

17     had occasion to study while working on this expert report, and pursuant

18     to those documents I can say that they neither conducted any tests nor

19     follow the procedure for the proper commissioning of those weapons for

20     use in the army.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I note the time.  I assume that this is the

22     appropriate time to take a break.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith, that is

24     indeed.

25             We'll take a break and come back at half past 2.00.

Page 14499

 1     Court adjourned.

 2                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.47 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we continue, may the record show that we

 5     are now sitting pursuant to 15 bis -- Rule 15 bis this afternoon.

 6     Judge Picard not being able to be with us due to prior engagements.

 7             Mr. Guy-Smith.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             Could we please have P746 up on the screen.  And I believe it's

10     the initial pages of that document in both B/C/S and in English.  I'm

11     sorry, that -- we should be in private session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

13     [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

18        Q.   You've had some discussion with Mr. Thomas concerning this

19     particular session, and I would just like to start at the very beginning.

20     And if you could identify for us the individuals who were involved in the

21     session the Supreme Defence Council held on the 7th of February, 1994?

22        A.   According to the minutes, the session was attended by

23     Zoran Lilic, the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia;

24     Slobodan Milosevic, the president of the Republic of Serbia;

25     Momir Bulatovic, the president of the Republic of Montenegro; Rade

Page 14500

 1     Kontic, the federal prime minister; Nikola Sainovic, the prime minister

 2     of the Republic of Serbia; Milo Djukanovic, the prime minister of the

 3     Republic of Montenegro; Pavle Bulatovic, the federal defence minister;

 4     Lieutenant-General Momcilo Perisic, chief of the General Staff; and

 5     Major-General Slavko Krivosija, chief of the military office of the FRY

 6     president.

 7        Q.   As you have discussed, you've had occasion to review numerous

 8     sessions of the SDC.  And with regard to the presence of Mr. Lilic, the

 9     president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; Mr. Kontic, the federal

10     prime minister; and Mr. Bulatovic, the federal defence minister; could

11     you tell the Chamber, please, based on your review, whether or not those

12     individuals were present at -- regularly present at sessions of the

13     Supreme Defence Council?

14        A.   Having perused the minutes of the sessions, I can say that the

15     SDC members regularly attended, namely the president of the

16     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the president of the Republic of Serbia,

17     and the president of the Republic of Montenegro.  In addition to them,

18     the defence minister and the Chief of the General Staff also attended.

19     And this would be the regular attendees of the sessions of the SDC.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.  Could we please go to, I believe it's

21     page 53 in the English and page 40 in the B/C/S of this particular

22     session.  Oh, I'm sorry, this is the -- I do apologise, these are the

23     minutes.  While we're here then -- see, this is what happens when you

24     move too fast.  Could we go to page 3 in the B/C/S and page 3 in the

25     English.

Page 14501

 1        Q.   And I'd like to focus your attention, if I could, on section 2.4

 2     and specifically number 2.4, para 2.  And with regard to the conversation

 3     that you were having with Mr. Thomas earlier concerning Perisic's

 4     concerns about the federal Law on Property, is this the decision that was

 5     made at the conclusion of the discussion as reflected in the minutes of

 6     the Supreme Defence Council, that being that:

 7             "Pursuant to the federal Law on Property, a decision to give

 8     federal funds and aid to Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian

 9     Krajina shall be passed by the federal government, which shall place

10     funds at the disposal of the Yugoslav Army General Staff for further

11     operational work;"?

12        A.   The council concluded here that action was to be taken pursuant

13     to the law, which means that the federal government decided on property,

14     and the General Staff was to implement its decisions operationally.

15        Q.   I thank you.  That can be taken off the screen --

16             MR. THOMAS:  Just beforehand, Your Honour, it's taking it out of

17     context simply to put inclusion number 2, sir, when there is conclusion

18     number 5 as well.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Not with regard to the conversation that

20     Mr. Thomas was having with him.  And if he wishes to deal with that, he

21     can.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I don't see how -- okay, anyway.  The Chamber

23     does note conclusion number 5, and I don't know how that affects

24     conclusion number 2.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  This exhibit can be taken off.  And could we

Page 14502

 1     please now have, I believe it's P752 which should be the stenographic

 2     notes of the 18th Session.  I'm sorry, it's 792.  Stop.  782, yes.  I was

 3     correct.  788.  P782.  Now I'm going to refer to, if I could, page 40 in

 4     the B/C/S and I believe it's page 53 in the English.

 5        Q.   With regard to this particular session -- it is has not yet come

 6     up in B/C/S.  There we go.  Although it's ...

 7             Mr. Thomas, in his examination with you, was kind enough to read

 8     you what Mr. Perisic said in the context of the issue of the law;

 9     however, his conversation was somewhat short.  And I'd like to continue

10     with what was said by Mr. Kontic.

11             First of all, if we could identify once again just for purposes

12     of clarity, who was Mr. Kontic?

13        A.   Mr. Kontic was the federal prime minister.  And he was, so to

14     speak, the boss of the -- to the minister of defence.

15        Q.   And with regard to Mr. Kontic's response to Perisic's concerns

16     and question, Mr. Kontic says, and I quote:

17             "With the entry into force of the new Law on Federation Property,

18     the federal government is the owner of the property as a whole.  It's the

19     federal government's to dispose of.  It takes over everything.  We will

20     establish a staff, a ministry, an agency, which will be -- managed that

21     vast property.  We want to derive revenue from that property.  We have to

22     resolve a lot of questions with the Yugoslav Army concerning" -- could I

23     see the next page, please, in English; it remains the same in B/C/S.

24     "... this.  One of these questions is the following:  We have to resolve

25     this question in conformity with the law.  The Supreme Council cannot

Page 14503

 1     authorise someone to do that; only the government can do it.  I suggest

 2     that within the framework of what we've agreed that belongs to us on the

 3     basis of the budget, we should decide at whose disposal we should place

 4     this - either at that of the Chief of the General Staff or the

 5     General Staff so he can work on it operationally."

 6             And then it says that Mr. Lilic comes in.  And for purposes,

 7     again, of the record, could you please tell us who Mr. Lilic was at the

 8     time?

 9        A.   Mr. Lilic was the president of the Supreme Defence Council in his

10     capacity of president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

11        Q.   His comment is ... if you would be so kind as to tell us what he

12     said?

13        A.   "All right, we agree."

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That document can be taken off the screen at this

16     time.

17        Q.   Now, with regard to issues concerning who had --

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We can go back into open session.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:

25        Q.   With regard to issues concerning who had control and authority -

Page 14504

 1     now I'm dealing with issues one might suggest chain of command.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we please have P1009 on the screen, which

 3     is the document that you spoke to Mr. Thomas about.

 4        Q.   And while the document is coming up on the screen, apart from

 5     being the president, as defined, was Mr. Lilic or was he not the supreme

 6     commander?

 7        A.   As regards that question, there was always a discussion, a

 8     controversy, but in essence he is the supreme commander who orders -- who

 9     makes decisions and issues orders on the basis of the decisions taken by

10     the Supreme Defence Council.

11        Q.   With regard to the relationship between Lilic and Perisic, how

12     would you characterise that relationship with regard to who can order

13     who?

14        A.   Lilic could issue orders to Perisic with respect to the affairs

15     that fall under the jurisdiction of General Perisic.

16        Q.   With --

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we have the next page in B/C/S, please.

18     Third page in B/C/S, please.

19        Q.   Now, with regard to what you've just told us, can the government

20     order Perisic to engage in a particular act?

21        A.   Lilic, as the president of the Supreme Defence Council, could

22     order Perisic only concerning the work and tasks which fall under the

23     competency of the General Staff.  Nothing outside of that.  This is

24     something that was defined by law and regulations.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 14505

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We can take that document off the screen now.  I

 2     believe that we are going have to go back into private session for but a

 3     moment.  And if we could have P757 up on the screen.  And also --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are in private session, I think.  And -- or

 5     not.  Okay.  Mr. Guy-Smith, are you asking that we go into private

 6     session?

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe we have to go into private session

 8     again because I --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

10     [Private session]    [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And could we have 757, P757, on the screen.  It

14     would be -- I believe it's page 4 in the B/C/S and page 3 in the English.

15        Q.   Now, you were asked by Mr. Thomas with regard to your report and

16     specifically with regard to page 79 of your report, which is under

17     paragraph 190, a number of questions concerning the 27th Session of the

18     Supreme Defence Council held on the 27th of September, 1994.  And I'd

19     like to focus on --

20             MR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

22             MR. THOMAS:  I must say I don't recall asking those questions.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You know what, as a matter of fact, I stand

24     corrected.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.

Page 14506

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was wondering, myself.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I stand corrected.

 3        Q.   With regard to the SDC minutes and specifically with regard to

 4     the assertion that you've made concerning the 27th Session, you indicate:

 5             "The request to transfer the requested artillery ammunition to

 6     the Army of the Federal Republika Srpska is hereby refused since it is

 7     contrary to the decision by the federal government."

 8             If we could go -- which is a language which is also found in

 9     number 6.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could go to the first page of this document

11     so we can identify what it is.

12        Q.   Could you identify for us what this document is that -- that has

13     the language that I just read to you in number 6?

14        A.   This document is the minutes of the 27th Session of the

15     Supreme Defence Council, session held on the 27 of September, 1994.  I

16     see that the minutes were drawn up on the 1st of October, 1994.

17        Q.   And --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we see number 6, please.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I was going to go back to it again.  Can we now

20     go back to page 4 in the B/C/S and page 3 in the English.

21        Q.   And looking at number 6 once again, what does that indicate?

22        A.   Item 6 shows that the Supreme Defence Council did not accept the

23     request of the Army of Republika Srpska to provide the requested

24     ammunition because it was contrary to the decision of the federal

25     government; that is to say that the federal government did not agree to

Page 14507

 1     give this kind of assistance to them.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And if we could scroll down on the -- in the

 3     B/C/S to the bottom of the page so we can see whether or not that

 4     document was signed and by whom it was signed and in what capacity.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was signed by

 6     Zoran Lilic, president of the Supreme Defence Council.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could take that document off the screen, if

 8     we could go back into public session, and I will not be requesting to go

 9     back into private session again during the pendency of my examination.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

16        Q.   During your questioning earlier today by Mr. Thomas, you

17     indicated, at page 67, line 3, you said:

18             "In order to avoid any confusion, let me tell you this:  This

19     document is incorrect in a detail.  Can I explain what is incorrect in

20     it?"

21             And then you went on to -- that request was denied to you, but I

22     don't know whether or not you had an opportunity to continue your

23     discussion with regard to P1214 as to the incorrect detail that you were

24     referring to or not.  And I couldn't -- I couldn't discern whether your

25     answer that you ultimately made did include your ability to explain the

Page 14508

 1     incorrect detail that you had mentioned or not.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't you think that in fairness to the witness he

 3     should see P1214 on the screen?

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, I do indeed.  So if we could have that back

 5     up.  And it's -- it's the -- and it's page 19 of both documents.

 6        Q.   My question to you is:  Did you get the opportunity when you were

 7     discussing this before to answer the question with regard to this -- I'm

 8     sorry.  Did you get the opportunity to explain the incorrect detail that

 9     you were trying to establish with Mr. Thomas or not?  And if you did not,

10     what was it?

11        A.   I did not have an opportunity to explain that.

12        Q.   Kindly do so now, sir.

13        A.   The explanation is as follows:  You know that the

14     Army of Republika Srpska used -- had its supplies from the reserves and

15     from what was left when the JNA withdrew.  In addition to that, they also

16     purchased supplies from the territory of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

17     from the special-purpose industry.  And they also received supplies

18     through assistance of the VJ.

19             When you see the column where it says received from the

20     General Staff of Republika Srpska, you do not see anything that had been

21     purchased from the special-purpose industry of Yugoslavia.  And it is

22     reasonable to assume that where it says GSV, that that represents the

23     total amount of ammunition that had arrived from the Federal Republic of

24     Yugoslavia, be it via purchase from special-purpose industry or through

25     assistance received from the Army of Yugoslavia.

Page 14509

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And where are we supposed to see GSV?  I'm asking

 2     you, Mr. Djokic.  Where do we see GSV on this document?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's a column entitled,

 4     "received through the GS of the VRS," and then within that title,

 5     underneath, there is one sub-column:  "From the government of the RS."

 6     That's one column.  And then another column is "from the VJ."  I

 7     apologise, it doesn't say "from the VS," it says "from the VJ."  And then

 8     the third column is total.

 9             So the Army of Republika Srpska also purchased ammunition from

10     the factories, and that data is missing in the column.  And I think that

11     in this column where it says "from the VJ" includes everything that had

12     arrived from Yugoslavia; that is to say, what was received through

13     assistance of the VJ and what was purchased in factories in the territory

14     of Yugoslavia.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:

16        Q.   There has been some discussion with regard to documents that

17     you --

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, are you satisfied with --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I didn't get the answer to what GSV is, but

20     I got the answer explaining what he -- [Microphone not activated].

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  Should we -- thank you.

22        Q.   There's been -- there's been some discussion with regard to

23     documents that you reviewed and some criticism that's been levied against

24     you, and I just want to get one thing clear, which is with regard to the

25     combat readiness report for the VJ for 1994, that was a document, was it

Page 14510

 1     not, that we requested from the National Council of Co-operation in --

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't have a question.  Finish the question.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:

 6        Q.   And we did not receive -- we requested the document from the

 7     National Council for the Co-Operation with The Hague for FRY, and we did

 8     not receive that document, did we?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   And with regard to documents that you received from the Defence,

11     we gave you the records of -- all of the trial records that we had, we

12     gave that to you so you could use that in your analysis?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   Earlier, in discussions in a question that was raised by

15     Judge David, the issue of state secrets came up, and I'd like to just get

16     kind of a rough, if I could, or general understanding of how the

17     military -- the military operates.  Now, the military operates on the

18     basis of state secrets, does it not?

19        A.   A certain number of decisions are classified as a state secret.

20     That's normal in any army.

21        Q.   And with regard to the Supreme Defence Council sessions, to your

22     knowledge those sessions in their entirety, until whatever revelation

23     occurred here in The Hague, were also state secrets, were they not?

24        A.   I can give you the following answer:  Before embarking upon

25     working in this case, I did not have occasion to see any material from

Page 14511

 1     the Supreme Defence Council sessions except for the information which was

 2     published in the press, namely that such and such session of the

 3     Supreme Defence Council was held on such and such date.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Djokic, I must implore you once again:  Listen

 5     carefully to the question and answer the question and only the question.

 6     The question to you was:

 7             "... to your knowledge those sessions in the entirety, until

 8     whatever revelation occurred here in The Hague, were also state secrets,

 9     were they not?"

10             Yes, they were; no, they were not; I don't know.  One of those

11     three.  Then we go home quicker.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how they were

13     classified.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.

15        Q.   In your research with regard to the issues that you were

16     presented here, were you ever made aware of any super state secret

17     documents above and beyond those state secret -- those documents that

18     were comprised of the SDC sessions?

19        A.   No.  I did not come across a single document which received a

20     higher classification than a state secret document.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  One minute and I am probably done with my

23     questioning.  I do have two housekeeping matters.

24             I have two housekeeping matters.  Those housekeeping matters

25     are --

Page 14512

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you done?

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I am done with my questioning.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we -- can we just wind up with the witness and

 4     then you can come to your housekeeping matters.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Oh, but of course.  Sure.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Djokic, thank you so much for taking the time

 7     off your very busy schedule to come and testify at the Tribunal.  This

 8     brings us to the end of your testimony.  You are now excused, you may go

 9     home.  And please travel well back home.  You may stand down.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.  We would tender those supporting materials

14     that make up the footnotes with regard to Mr. Djokic's report in their

15     entirety so that the Chamber has an opportunity to review those as well

16     or refer to them, since they have come up during the course of this

17     examination.  I have been informed that they should all be -- which is

18     why I was a bit -- I had some consternation, but they should all have

19     been translated by CLSS and that full translations of all of those

20     documents should have been delivered to the Office of the Prosecutor, and

21     Mr. Thomas specifically.  I had a bit of a concern when there was

22     apparently some slippage there, but to the two issues; one is, I offer

23     those apologies from the Defence to Mr. Thomas in that regard as well as

24     to the Chamber because we were -- endeavoured madly to make sure that all

25     of them were translated into English, and I know that there was a series

Page 14513

 1     of e-mails that when back and forth for probably some many weeks

 2     concerning that particular issue.  And we'll make an appropriate

 3     designation of each of the footnoted documents for the purposes of the

 4     Chamber's edification.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hear what you say.  And before I call on

 6     Mr. Thomas, just two remarks to make:  First of all, that slippage you

 7     make, I can understand, but it should not have slipped to the extent that

 8     they were not footnoted; number one.  Number two, it is not a

 9     housekeeping matter.  Because if you want to tender them, this was the

10     best witness to tender them through.  Now you've let him go before

11     tendering them.  You are now virtually at the mercy of Mr. Thomas as to

12     whether he's going to object or not object.

13             Mr. Thomas.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understand the mercy that I'm at.

15             MR. THOMAS:  And I'm feeling merciful, sir, so I have no

16     objection to those documents being tendered.  Perhaps in the instances

17     where there is or has been a history of correspondence between the

18     Defence and CLSS regarding translations, I wonder whether that continued.

19     There were a couple of documents this morning which I undertook to

20     arrange translations for, but given what my learned friend has said, it's

21     probably best that the Defence be responsible for continuing those

22     efforts they've already made and ensure that the translations are

23     provided that way.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That would be fine.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, fine.  Thank you so much.  Then I guess

Page 14514

 1     you'll tender them, and the Registrar can give them exhibit numbers

 2     outside court and tell us.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Apparently the procedure is you've got to

 5     make a list of that and file it with the Registry and the Chamber will

 6     look at it and the Chamber will give instructions to the Registrar

 7     accordingly.  So you may do that.  Are you done with your housekeeping

 8     matters?

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's -- I have two.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And the other is, is that during the testimony of

12     Mr. Bildt on 27th of October, we presented him with two portions of

13     previous testimony in this case without identifying the particular

14     witness or the page numbers.  We were informed by the Legal Officer that

15     that would perhaps be appropriate.  And we'd like to put on the record

16     the portions of the transcript which we were citing at page 14278, at

17     line 11, through 14279, line 2 of Mr. Bildt's testimony.

18             We cited to the testimony of Muhamed Sacirbey taken on the

19     18th of June, 2009, transcript pages 2495 at line 23 through -- 7495 at

20     line 23, through 7496, line 7.  At page 14282, line 18, through 14283,

21     line 24 of Mr. Bildt's testimony, we cited to the testimony of Muhamed

22     Sacirbey taken on the 1st of July, 2009, transcript page 7736, lines 1

23     through 18.  That concludes those matters.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.  The Chamber

25     has its own housekeeping matters, just two also, very brief.  Just two

Page 14515

 1     oral decisions that the Trial Chamber would like to render.

 2             On the 28th of September, 2010, the Defence filed a request for

 3     changing status of certain exhibits admitted under seal whereby it

 4     requests to change the status of certain exhibits originating from the

 5     disclosure batch 410 and relevant transcript portions.  The Defence

 6     submits that following the Trial Chamber's decision of 12 August 2010

 7     left in protective measures for disclosure batch 2410 material, the

 8     confidential status of the exhibits originating from batch 410 is no

 9     longer required.  The Prosecution did not file a response to the Defence

10     request.

11             The Trial Chamber grants the request and directs the Registry to

12     make public the exhibits and relevant transcript portions as identified

13     in the Defence request.

14             The second one.

15             The Trial Chamber will now address some housekeeping matter here

16     which is that on the 14th of October, 2010, the Defence filed a motion

17     regarding marked-for-identification documents in which it notifies the

18     Trial Chamber that it has received official CLSS translations of certain

19     documents that were marked for identification pending official

20     translation.

21             The Defence now seeks leave to replace the draft translations in

22     e-court with these official translations and have the document admitted

23     into evidence.  The Prosecution did not file a response to the Defence

24     request.  The Trial Chamber grants the motion, allows the Defence to

25     replace the translations, directs the Registry to remove the MFI status

Page 14516

 1     of the exhibits listed in the motion and to take the necessary steps for

 2     the implementation of this decision.

 3             Thank you so much.

 4             Mr. Guy-Smith, to what date do we postpone?

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The 15th --

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Apparently the lifting of that confidential status

 8     in the first decision, I guess, applies also to the

 9     audio-video recordings of those portions.  Thank you so much.  To what

10     date shall we postpone, Mr. Guy-Smith?

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We request postponement to the 15th of November

12     for our next witness.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does anybody know what time do we sit on the 15th,

14     is it morning or afternoon?  I see a finger says this court, but I don't

15     see it saying what time.  Okay.  I guess it's going to be in the morning.

16     Or whatever the time is, we will postpone to the 15th of November, time

17     to be ascertained as time goes on.  Court adjourned.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  May I say one last thing which is thank you very

19     much for accommodating me and having an extra session.  I want to thank

20     all of the staff and everybody who was involved in sitting later on a

21     Friday afternoon.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.  You're

23     welcome.  And I hope everybody has heard Mr. Guy-Smith's thanks.

24             And I'm told the 15th is Monday morning.  So it will be 9.00,

25     Courtroom II.  Court adjourned.

Page 14517

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.16 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of

 3                           November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.