Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2234

1 Wednesday, 27 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, Madam Registrar, if you could

6 kindly call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam, and good afternoon to you.

10 I see Mr. Josse is missing, otherwise I think we are more or less

11 full house as far as counsel is concerned.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey is accompanied by Mr.

14 Thayer. Interpretation is fine. I hear no complaints.

15 Colonel, good afternoon.

16 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome, and let's hope that we can get over with

18 the last part of the cross-examinations, and then we'll see whether there

19 is a re-examination by Mr. McCloskey.

20 Mr. Sarapa, you have the floor.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa: [Continued]

24 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, in connection with the last question I

25 asked you yesterday, I wish to clarify something concerning the time of the

Page 2235

1 events. In the transcript of 19th September, page 44, lines 1 to 3: [In

2 English] " ... late May, early June, when leaving the compound in

3 Potocari, we would face direct fire from vehicles shooting just in front or

4 behind the vehicle."

5 A. [In English] I can't remember.

6 Q. [Interpretation] I just want --

7 A. [Previous translation continues]...

8 Q. I just want to clarify something. Yesterday you said it happened

9 in early July, not in May or June. Is it the same event?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we may simplify it. First of all, we're

11 talking of the occasion that you were asked upon, namely when you are

12 driving your vehicle and allegedly you were shot at and there were missiles

13 falling in front and behind the car, which you were then asked about. Was

14 there only one occasion when you were driving a car and you were fired at

15 or more than one?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened on several occasions,

17 and it meant that I didn't have any driver anymore and Major Franken had to

18 provide me with another driver.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So at least we've clarified that. Now, Mr. Sarapa,

20 you may direct the witness to the particular event that you had in mind,

21 because I do recall that when you put it to him that it happened in June or

22 July or May, he did not agree with that. So I suggest you go through this

23 the best way you can. And I suggest the easiest would be to ask the

24 witness: Do you recall also being in a car and being shot at in the month

25 of May? And then in the month of June? You have already confirmed that in

Page 2236

1 July you were certainly shot at.

2 Mr. Sarapa, let him answer it because it will help you articulate

3 your question better.

4 Colonel, were you shot at while you were in your car in May?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're talking about leaving the

6 compound, then it happened indeed in June and July for sure.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You are excluding May, in other words?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it might have been the end of

9 May, beginning of June, but I can't quite remember anymore.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you have a clearer picture than you had at

11 the beginning of the sitting.

12 So go ahead with your questions, Mr. Sarapa, I was only trying to

13 help you.

14 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, it has been clarified. I just

15 wanted to make sure whether we are talking about the same event. So it is

16 the same event, late May or early June, when they were coming back from the

17 base in Potocari.

18 Q. You also mentioned later, line 10 and 11 that it was from a

19 distance of about 50 metres from you and that it was very close. Do you

20 stand by that statement?

21 A. Yes. They were very close; I can remember that. And I can also

22 remember at the moment when I drove away with my new driver, I had regular

23 radio contact with the post and my previous major, who asked me if

24 everything was okay and if I wasn't wounded. So I still remember that very

25 clearly.

Page 2237


2 Q. Thank you. I think it has been cleared up. I would like to move

3 on to another question. In your statement of the 28th September, 1995, you

4 say: [In English] "One night on or around 8th of July I heard heavy

5 shelling. The next morning personnel from the explosive disposal service

6 went to see where they had landed. A few duds had landed about 500 metres

7 from our compound. They were shells measuring about 2 metres -- measuring

8 about 2 metres. I did not see this myself."

9 [Interpretation] In this connection I would like to ask one

10 question since you are an artillery officer. Do you believe it is possible

11 for the shells concerned to have fallen because it was the so-called stray

12 shell fired with certain original elements of aiming without the intent of

13 targeting the base?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you understood the question, Colonel?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've understood the question.

16 There is always a possibility, but how big it was, that I can't

17 answer, a question mark.

18 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I should like to clarify only one point. I'm not talking about

20 the size of the shell. I have already described from your words what the

21 shell was like. The gist of my question is something else. Do you allow

22 the possibility that it could have been a stray shell that was fired with

23 initial aiming elements?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Can I interject here?

25 Did only one shell land in the proximity of the car or more than

Page 2238

1 one shell, Colonel?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there are two things we are

3 talking about and they're getting mixed up. When we talk about the shell

4 that fell in the proximity of the compound, it happened when I was actually

5 in the compound. I heard some shots that took place, so they are two

6 separate, individual incidents that took place.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You were being asked about the incident of the 8th

8 July. Allegedly you said in your testimony that: "One night on or about

9 the 8th of July I heard shelling. The next morning personnel from the

10 explosive disposal service went to see where they landed. A few had landed

11 about 500 metres from our compound. They were shells measuring about 2

12 metres."

13 My question is the following: As you're correct, there are two

14 instances that are being referred to here. Let's start with the car

15 incident, the car being shot at, was it only one shell or more than one

16 shell that fell in the proximity of the car?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was several times.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And now the shelling in the proximity of the

19 compound, was it one shell or more than one shell?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I remember correctly, you heard

21 shelling over the compound several times, at least one time that -- which

22 was found in the proximity of the compound. Information as regards where

23 the others landed I don't have.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So now going back to Mr. Sarapa's question.

25 Limiting yourself now to this one time where you found a shell in the

Page 2239

1 proximity of the compound, would you exclude the possibility that this was

2 a stray shell that happened to land there and that was not one which was

3 intended to land there?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I cannot exclude that. No, I

5 cannot exclude that.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So now you have it clear. I don't know if you want

7 to pursue this matter?

8 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] No, no need. Thank you.

9 Q. My next question. This one I'm also asking you because you are a

10 professional officer with long experience. In view of the situation in

11 Srebrenica that you were very familiar with when you were there, namely

12 that demilitarisation had not been carried out in full, that there were

13 violations in terms of flights of helicopters and attacks of the division

14 outside the enclave, do you believe the attack of the Drina Corps in July

15 1995 was an attack against the 28th Division or against the civilian

16 population?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Very well. And my last question: After the termination of your

19 mission in Srebrenica, did you face any limitations in divulging the facts

20 concerning your mission?

21 A. When I returned home to Germany, I was not allowed to divulge any

22 information from the Ministry of Defence because it was to make sure that

23 the troops in the area would still be safe. So that was a restriction.

24 After that, later on, I didn't have any restriction anymore on divulging

25 information.

Page 2240

1 JUDGE AGIUS: What is more important, were you under such

2 restriction or limitation when you released any of the interviews to the

3 office of the -- to the investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was no longer applicable at

5 that stage.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And are you under any restriction or limitation now

7 for the purpose of your testimony in this case?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not restricted. You could say

9 that defence has withdrawn itself from it and have left it completely up to

10 me. Right now in the preparation and during my stay here, I've had no

11 escort and I haven't had any instructions from the Ministry of Defence.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And for the purpose of your previous testimonies in

13 other cases before this Tribunal, were you under any such limitation or

14 restriction, Colonel?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that I can recall.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That covers the whole gambit of -- Mr. Sarapa, you

17 can proceed.

18 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

19 questions. You covered the last that I had.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And probably more quickly, too. So I thank you so

21 much, Mr. Sarapa.

22 Mr. McCloskey, is there a re-examination?

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2241

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have any questions for you either,

2 Colonel. So that's it. We come to the conclusion of your testimony, and

3 you can go back to your daily duties. On behalf of Judge O-Gon Kwon, from

4 Korea, who is sitting to my right; Judge Kimberly Prost, from Canada,

5 sitting my left; and Judge Bjorn Stole, from the Kingdom of Norway, sitting

6 on my extreme right thank you for coming to give evidence in this case.

7 Although we don't expect you going much too far from here, we wish you a

8 safe journey back home.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, how long -- how much time do you think

11 you require?

12 MR. BOURGON: Two minutes, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 Usher, you can start preparing the next witness.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

17 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

18 Honours. This is a brief application concerning the Prosecution motion for

19 the leave to amendment the 65 ter exhibit list which was filed on 13

20 September. The delay to respond to this motion is today on the 27th of

21 September, and this is an application pursuant to Rule 126 to have an

22 additional two days to respond to this motion. The reason I want this

23 delay is because we had initially intended to file individual responses;

24 now there is a way for us to file one response which would make it easier

25 for the Trial Chamber to adjudicate on this motion. And no more than two

Page 2242

1 days would be required for this purpose, Mr. President.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, any comments on your part?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: No problem, Mr. President. I always appreciate

5 being asked beforehand because I wouldn't have an objection, but no

6 objection.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Permission granted or an extension is

8 being granted up to Friday.

9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We still have to tender the exhibits.

13 Let's start with the Prosecution. Thank you for reminding me, Judge Kwon.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. The first one is 65 ter

15 number 0531. It's a message from Karremans to Mladic on the 11th and 12th

16 of July. The next one is 65 ter number 1535, it's a photograph of the

17 white house. The next one is 1992, it's a video-clip of the Hotel Fontana.

18 And then 1993, another video-clip of the -- of the Dutch soldiers at the

19 Hotel Fontana. 1994 is a video-clip of the second meeting at the Hotel

20 Fontana. 1995 is the video-clip of the third meeting. And then 2037 is a

21 video-clip showing the women and children and -- made -- at the time Major

22 Boering coming out of the area of -- around Tiska Luka. And then 2047 is

23 the -- now with the addition of the Hotel Fontana clips is the entirety of

24 the trial video, as you recall from the other witness. 2048 is the

25 transcript of the trial video, which includes some of the portions that we

Page 2243

1 did not have subtitled. And then 2009, there was a short video-clip of the

2 soldiers giving out candy. And then PIC00007 is map 6 from the map book

3 that was marked briefly. PIC00008 is another section of map 6 that was

4 marked by the witness.

5 And then we have added P02105, which is a -- a chart or an index

6 including a little more detail of the sources from the -- of the material

7 from the trial video. I think you saw on the trial video there's a very

8 brief source, but this is a little more in-depth for Your Honours. And

9 that's it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

11 Any objections from the Defence teams? I hear none. So all

12 these exhibits -- all these documents are being so admitted.

13 And Madam Registrar, you will assign the exhibit number later.

14 Now we come to the Defence exhibits. We start with Defence for

15 Popovic. There are three documents.

16 MS. CONDON: That's correct, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And it's ID00019, ID -- 1D00019, 1D00020, and

18 1D00026.

19 Any objections, Mr. McCloskey?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me one second, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want me to describe them to you?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: We've got them right here and I don't really

23 think we have a problem.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: No objections.

Page 2244

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So these three documents are being so

2 admitted and will be marked accordingly by the registrar. This is the

3 Defence for Borovcanin, four documents. The first one is 4D00015, being a

4 list of war criminals known to VRS who committed crimes in Bratunac,

5 Vlasenica, Milici, and Skelani municipalities. Second one is 4D00025,

6 which I understand is also a Popovic exhibit with the number 1D00018.

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I'm being told that this was not told -

9 - tendered, actually, by the Popovic, but it's marked by the Popovic team.

10 The other document is the statement of facts and acceptance of

11 responsibility by -- in the case of Momir Nikolic. And it's given 65 ter

12 number 4D00016. And last an interim report of General Staff of AbiH

13 submitted to the 1st Corps command signed by General Hasanovic. 65 ter

14 4D00017. Any objections?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't believe so, Mr. President, but just for

16 your knowledge, the list of war criminals is a document that was found at

17 the Bratunac Brigade headquarters and is incorporated in our later case.

18 But coming in now is fine, no objection. And the statement of Momir

19 Nikolic, as long as that's coming in in full, I have no objection. I don't

20 think the whole thing was mentioned, but I think if it's going to be

21 mentioned, it should come in in full. We saw a good part of it, I mean one

22 whole page on the screen, but --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic or -- yes.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

25 Since it was I who examined the previous witness, let me just give an

Page 2245

1 explanation. At this stage we favour the proposal to introduce a part of

2 the statement of Mr. Momir Nikolic, the part that we used in view of the

3 standards you set at the beginning of the trial and since this statement I

4 suppose will also be covered during the direct testimony of this witness,

5 let me just say that we accept the exhibiting of the entire video recording

6 suggested by the Prosecution number 52047, where we used the sequence from

7 7.42 until 9.10 for purposes of identification of this witness. Thank you.


9 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's correct in that we -- as you know, Mr.

10 Nikolic -- Mr. Momir Nikolic is on our witness list. We would at that time

11 be submitting -- that's an important document, that -- it's a statement of

12 facts pursuant to a plea agreement. I -- I have no objection of course it

13 going in now, but I don't think we should see pieces of it. I think that

14 might give the wrong impression. It's a very important document. It's

15 coming in anyway, I would think, though I don't know if you want to go that

16 far at this point.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think that the best way to go about

19 this is to admit the entire statement of facts and acceptance of

20 responsibility for the time being, and then we see later, depending on

21 whether the Prosecution eventually makes use or decides to make use of the

22 entire document or not. But there's no point in having a piece -- a part

23 of it which we would need to consider within the entire context of the

24 statement itself. So -- otherwise, there are no objections?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

Page 2246

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you address -- do you wish to address the

2 matters raised by Mr. Stojanovic or something else?

3 MR. BOURGON: Yes, Mr. President.


5 MR. BOURGON: Just concerning the statement of the acceptance of

6 responsibility that the Chamber just decided to admit, Mr. President, I

7 believe it is important to know that this must be admitted on the record

8 not for the truth of its content, but basically as simply a document that

9 will be used with some witnesses. But I would object to the admission of -

10 - that this document be admitted for the truth of its contents. Thank you,

11 Mr. President.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, I don't need -- we need any

13 further positions on this matter.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would ask that it be provided -- that it be

15 accepted for whatever value the Judges saw to it and we stay away from

16 these old outdated common law --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll look at it as we go along and we'll decide

18 what weight to give to it, if at all.

19 So these are -- these four documents are all admitted.

20 Now, I am going through what we have received. I noticed that

21 although during your cross-examination, Mr. Meek, you did refer to

22 documents you have not sought the admittance of any. Is that correct?

23 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour. That's correct. The documents I

24 utilised were statements of the witness and just for showing him --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to have a confirmation of that on the

Page 2247

1 record.

2 Same applies to you, Madam Nikolic?

3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution

4 has already exhibited the same document.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.

6 Now, Madam Faveau, you wish to tender nine documents. I'll go

7 through them one by one. First one is 5D00040, which is a UNPF policy and

8 information for the Security Council. Next is 5D00050, which is 2nd Corps

9 ABiH structure UN document. Third is 5D00051, eight operation group

10 structure UN document. Next is NIOD appendix 5, chapter 1, the conflict of

11 the Medecins Sans Frontieres and the opstina, 5D00052. Again from the same

12 publication NIOD, chapter 4, the emergency stock, 5D00053. Again from the

13 same publication, part 3, chapter 4, section 9, the humanitarian situation

14 in Srebrenica, 5D00054. Next is NIOD, the issue of people getting knocked

15 down, 5D00055. Again NIOD part 3, chapter 6, section 16, the night of 10

16 to 11 July, last meeting between Karremans and the opstina, 5D00056. And

17 last is a video number 44581/3, which is marked P1577. This hasn't been

18 tendered already by you, Mr. McCloskey, this last video?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I believe we've agreed that that's

20 going to be withdrawn because it has. I think Ms. Faveau was just worried

21 about the time or the situation, but I think we've sorted that out.

22 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed, Mr.

23 President. I confirm, it's the same video which the Prosecutor showed

24 today, so video 2047, so there is no reason to do so.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 2248

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's -- okay. I'll be addressing the

2 question of confidentiality and keeping some of these under seal for the

3 reasons I will explain shortly, but do you have any objection to the

4 admittance of any of these documents, Mr. McCloskey?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. I would point out that the

6 two BiH documents referred to are from the OTP collection, and as such I

7 have no reason to question their authenticity. And Ms. Faveau did pay us

8 the courtesy of showing us her intended exhibits, and we agreed that the

9 NIOD -- the complete sections were fine to come in. And so we have no

10 objection to any of this.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So the thing is that, as you will

12 recall, while we were going through some of these NIOD documents, we needed

13 to go into private session for the reasons that I explained then. I am not

14 in a position now to distinguish -- to identify which one of these

15 documents were the ones which we made use of in private session. So I am

16 going to entrust the registrar with the task of identifying them, and those

17 NIOD documents or parts thereof that were made use of in private session

18 will be -- will be admitted confidentially and kept under -- under seal.

19 All right. You will identify them because I -- here and now I don't

20 remember which ones.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a discussion here that perhaps there's no

23 further need to have these under seal once the NIOD chapters that we have

24 referred to are public domain now. One can read them on the internet, one

25 can obtain a copy of them.

Page 2249

1 What's your position, Mr. McCloskey?

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think that's correct, Mr. President. You know,

3 the chances were that something could be gotten into, so I think it's safe

4 to do it the way we did. But now I don't see any problem.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree, Madam Faveau, with lifting the

6 precautions that we took earlier on?

7 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, President.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So we lift the qualification that we made earlier

9 on now, and these -- all these documents will be entered -- entered into

10 evidence, admitted into evidence, and marked according to the number the

11 registrar will assign to them.

12 Coming to Mr. Pandurevic's Defence, we have seven documents that

13 the Defence wishes to tender. First one is 7D26, which is a request from

14 the 28th Division to the Main Staff of ABiH. The second is 7D28, which is

15 the 28th Division report to the 2nd Corps. The third is 7D30 which is BH

16 army Main Staff response the Command of the 8th Operation Group Srebrenica.

17 The next is 7D34 which is the 28th Division report to the 2nd Corps, which

18 is 7D34. Next is 7D36 which is 2nd Corps order to the 28th Division. Next

19 is 7D41, 2nd Corps instruction to the 28 Brigade. Last is 7D44 which is

20 the Command of the 8th Operation Group Srebrenica with the operation and

21 report.

22 Now, the last was used in private session. What's your position

23 on the admittance of these documents into evidence, Mr. McCloskey?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, at this time, due to the small

25 number of them, I will not object, though I do note that a few of these

Page 2250

1 were used for a witness who didn't know anything about them. So they

2 didn't really move us forward at all. Though they are relevant documents.

3 And so at this point I won't object, but I think it's -- in the future, if

4 that begins to continue, I think it -- I may be objecting because I don't

5 think it's getting us anywhere. Though I would like to make sure that they

6 are sent for translation so that we can see what they say.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that is precisely the point that I wanted to

8 raise. Almost none of them have been translated, and we need to have a

9 translation. So they are being admitted, and of course we need to have

10 them translated, otherwise they will be of no assistance to the Trial

11 Chamber.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would also point out as part of the --

13 their authentication, all of them but the 29 April 1995 document, 2nd Corps

14 instruction to the 28th Brigade appear to be part of what we call the

15 cobblestone collection, which I think, as you know, Mr. President, was

16 captured by NATO forces after the -- after the war in the search of a

17 Bosnian Serb army area. And it were -- these Muslim records were part of

18 records that were kept by the VRS after the war. And so they have a

19 particularly kind of unusual indicia of reliability to them. I'm not sure

20 -- the other one is from one of the standard BiH collections, which I have

21 no problem with the reliability with. But I think it's important for you

22 to know that for that evidence.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So our decision is to admit these

24 documents; however, those which have not yet been translated will be

25 formally admitted only upon the translation having been done and made --

Page 2251

1 made available. Until then, they will only be marked for identification.

2 Okay. But then automatically, once the translation arrives, registrar, you

3 are already entrusted to finalise that.

4 Mr. Krgovic, I take it that there are no documents that you wish

5 to tender?

6 MR. KRGOVIC: No, Your Honour, we used just video-clip which is

7 admitted earlier.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 Any remarks before we bring in the witness?

10 Mr. McCloskey.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Briefly, Mr. President, if I could be allowed to

12 go give my respects to the witness. I'll be gone and back briefly, though

13 I need to stay for one moment because Mr. Thayer will be addressing you on

14 an interesting issue related to your recent ruling on adjudicated facts.

15 This next witness -- I think we're attempting to save some time because

16 this next witness has -- will testify about some of the adjudicated facts

17 and we think we can reduce the questioning based on that. And Mr. Thayer

18 will go over our ideas, which we've mentioned briefly to the Defence for

19 your consideration.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

21 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Why don't you come in front and sit next to Mr.

23 McCloskey because the positioning of the columns here are not to our

24 liking.

25 MR. THAYER: We certainly read with great interest the decision

Page 2252

1 last night, and I believe that we've been able to reduce certainly the

2 questioning with respect to this witness by, as I counted, between 25 and

3 30 questions, which I hope will streamline the presentation somewhat.

4 There are a few questions, though, Your Honour, which touch upon

5 certain of the adjudicated facts but which may require some amplification.

6 What we didn't want to do was give the impression that we were simply

7 repeating facts that had clearly been addressed in the decision. We are

8 quite mindful of the care that was taken with respect to the decision and

9 will respect that. But there are necessarily certain areas we will need to

10 repeat.

11 One suggestion that we might have would be in certain

12 circumstances to simply read the text of the facts of the witness, ask

13 whether that is consistent with the witness's experience, and move on.

14 That itself, we believe, might save three or four questions or a more

15 extended answer. If that pleases the Court, we can certainly give that a

16 try experimentally, at least at the beginning.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you for that.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness can sit down there.

20 I thank you for that, Mr. Thayer. As you can imagine or you

21 definitely would imagine, this is not something that occurs to you only;

22 it's something that we have discussed and already decided upon, although

23 you don't find it written down in the decision because it was not the kind

24 of addendum that would have fitted in the -- and what I'm going to say

25 applies equally to both Prosecution and Defence when it comes to the

Page 2253

1 adjudicated facts.

2 The witness can sit down for the time being.

3 Basically, the decision means first that in as far as those 250-

4 odd adjudicated facts that we have agreed with you upon, the Trial Chamber

5 is simply taking judicial notice of the fact that that fact was adjudicated

6 by a previous Trial Chamber. We are not going any further than that. The

7 fact that a previous Trial Chamber has adjudicated that on the 11th of

8 July, 1995, the VRS entered into Srebrenica does not mean that the chapter

9 begins there and finishes there, and that you are -- neither you nor the

10 Defence are entitled to expand on that. There are some adjudicated facts

11 that obviously go in favour of your case and there are several adjudicated

12 facts that go in favour of the Defence case.

13 What we have stated there is what I have told you, and if you

14 need to expand on that to make things clear - because ultimately it's we

15 who will have to adjudicate not only on that fact but all the facts that

16 are pertinent - of course you will be able. But you will not be expected

17 to elicit answers from a witness simply to repeat what another Chamber has

18 already acknowledged, and that -- what we have already accepted as being an

19 adjudicated fact by another Trial Chamber. I don't know if I have made

20 myself clear enough. It's meant, of course, to accelerate the process and

21 we have steered away from what we considered would have constituted a

22 prejudice to a fair trial -- to the fair trial of the accused. But again

23 within the limits set.

24 The other thing is this, it seems you have taken a decision. In

25 our mind we must go a step further than you and remind you that the

Page 2254

1 decision, both one and the other, are still subject to possibly -- I'm just

2 using the term -- word "possibly" being -- becoming the subject matter of

3 an appeal, so do keep that in mind. But for the time being, you know what

4 our rules are. The decisions that we handed down yesterday have carried

5 their legal consequences as from the moment they were handed down, and

6 that's it. But do keep also in mind that things may change, in which case,

7 of course, the question will arise whether you would require a witness to

8 come back so that he or she answers questions that you wouldn't have put

9 because of our two decisions. All right.

10 MR. THAYER: Thank you for that clarification and guidance, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 MR. THAYER: If I may have a moment just to take the podium and

14 gather my things.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, it appears that I've missed

16 the witness, so I'll be here.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Van Duijn.

20 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you kindly stand up.

22 Are you still in the Dutch armed forces? Are you still a member

23 of the Dutch armed forces?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm currently working for the

25 Dutch Royal Marechaussee.

Page 2255

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you have a rank?

2 THE WITNESS: I'm a major.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You're a major. So if we address you as Major Van

4 Duijn --

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- would that suit you?


8 JUDGE AGIUS: So. Thank you, Major, and welcome to this

9 Tribunal. You have already testified in Krstic and Blagojevic trials, so

10 you more or less know the procedure. I won't dwell on that. Madam

11 Registrar is going to hand to you a copy -- the text of the solemn

12 declaration that our rules require every witness to make before he or she

13 starts giving evidence. Please read it out loud and that will be your

14 undertaking with us that in the course of your testimony you will be

15 speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I solemnly declare that I will

17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Major. Please make yourself

19 comfortable.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.

22 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.


24 Examination by Mr. Thayer:

25 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

Page 2256

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. We will be speaking the same language. Nevertheless, there will

3 be translation into a couple of other languages. So I'm going to try to

4 speak slowly and I ask that you perhaps speak a little more slowly than

5 ordinary and please leave a pause between the end of my question and the

6 beginning of your answer or the beginning of anybody else's question and

7 your answer.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And before you ask the first question,

9 could I kindly ask the entire staff, that's you, technicians, recorders,

10 interpreters, whatever, up to what time beyond quarter to 4.00 can we go

11 before we have a 30-minute break? I'm suggesting it is possible to -- the

12 break will be at quarter to 4.00 normally. If we go till quarter past --

13 no, that will not. No, I think we have to work it out in a different

14 manner. Let me ask the registrar to work it out, and she will communicate

15 with you.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Sorry for that, Mr. Thayer, but, you

18 know, we need to be elsewhere in this Tribunal at 5.00 for a short while,

19 and then we will re-convene.


21 Q. Sir, will you please state and spell your name.

22 A. My name is Leen Van Duijn spelled L-e-e-n V-a-n D-u-i-j-n.

23 Q. And how old are you, sir?

24 A. I am 36 years of age.

25 Q. You are currently a major in the Royal Dutch army?

Page 2257

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Presently serving in Italy with the European Gendarmarie force?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And just briefly would you let the Trial Chamber know what that

5 is and what you do there.

6 A. Just a specification, I'm not working in the army, but in the

7 Royal Marechaussee which is similar to the army but a different unit. I'm

8 working for the European Gendarmarie force, which is a new unit, and I'm

9 working in the headquarters based in Vicenza, Italy. It is a new police

10 force, robust police force which has been set up by five nations from --

11 which are also Member State from the European Union namely France, Italy,

12 Spain, Portugal, and the Netherlands, and we are capable of doing all sort

13 of police missions all around the world. And at that headquarters in

14 Vicenza, I'm in the head of training, evaluation, and lessons learned

15 department.

16 Q. Let me just review briefly your military service. You were

17 commissioned into the army as a second lieutenant. Upon graduating from

18 the royal Dutch military academy in 1993. Is that correct, sir?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And you were promoted to first lieutenant in November 1994, then

21 deployed soon thereafter in Bosnia as a platoon commander from January of

22 1995 through July of that same year. Is that correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And then between the latter part of 1995 and 1999, you served as

25 a platoon commander in the air mobile brigade training battalion and later

Page 2258

1 as a special reconnaissance platoon commander. Is that correct as well?

2 A. That's correct.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down.


5 Q. And in 1999, you were promoted to captain while serving as an

6 intelligence officer. Is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Between 2000 and 2005, you were based at Schiphol airport where

9 you were promoted to major and eventually headed the criminal

10 investigations division at the airport. Is that correct as well, sir?

11 A. That's correct.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The break will be as planned beforehand at 3.45.

13 MR. THAYER: Very well, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


16 Q. And since then you've been with the European Gendarmarie force.

17 Is that correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. I want to turn your attention to the time of your actual

20 deployment to Bosnia and ask you to please describe the process you

21 underwent as you first entered the enclave in January of 1995.

22 A. In the beginning of January we -- we entered by route from Zagreb

23 with bus to the enclave, and at every single crossing or check-point we

24 were asked to get out of the bus, show our ID cards, everything was

25 checked, our luggage was searched. And basically we were -- every time

Page 2259

1 everything was turned inside-out before we could enter eventually the

2 enclave. And everything that was not allowed by the Serb forces was taken

3 out of the luggage, which was basically everything they wanted to take from

4 us, meaning drinks or smoking materials or everything they wanted to take

5 out of it, it was possible for them to take out because we were unarmed and

6 travelling to -- by bus to the enclave.

7 Q. Now, you just stated that you were unarmed. Were you unarmed by

8 choice or was that a condition that was imposed on you by someone?

9 A. That was imposed and was brought to us as the regulations that

10 were standard at that time. So we didn't choose for it but it was imposed.

11 Q. And whose regulations, sir?

12 A. I heard from my higher level that that was the way that we should

13 conduct things, and I don't know at what level that was agreed upon.

14 Q. To your knowledge, was that a United Nations or UNPROFOR decision

15 or a decision that was made by someone else?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Very well. When you entered on duty, can you describe for the

18 Trial Chamber, what were your duties and responsibilities?

19 A. I was the head of an area which was -- which kept the observation

20 post Romeo and Quebec and with my platoon we had to patrol that area and

21 man the two observation posts to guard the outskirts of the -- of the

22 enclave on the north-eastern part, the total north-eastern part of the

23 enclave.

24 Q. And were there any particular OPs that -- that you manned or that

25 you were responsible for, sir?

Page 2260

1 A. That were OP Romeo and Quebec.

2 Q. And were you assigned to a particular company?

3 A. My company was the Charlie company which was located in the

4 northern part together with the staff of the battalion positioned on the

5 base at Potocari, and the other company, Bravo Company, was situated in

6 Srebrenica town and manned the southern part of the enclave.

7 Q. Now, before focussing on some of your experiences in July of

8 1995, I'd like to turn your attention to some other particular aspects of

9 your service in Bosnia. Specifically with respect to the re-supply of the

10 DutchBat forces in the enclave.

11 In general, sir, can you describe the frequency of the re-supply

12 that -- that the DutchBat forces received while you were there?

13 A. There was no clear frequency, at least there were a lot of re-

14 supply convoys scheduled, but a lot of them were stopped by the Serb forces

15 because they did not get a clearance to get through to -- to us. When I

16 arrived in January there was already a problem which occurred regularly

17 with the fuel situation, and next to that we had problems managing the

18 small amount of food and making sure that we had enough drinking water

19 because we also needed fuel to run the modules to make drinking water out

20 of the water that was present there.

21 Q. Let me just stop you right there. At some point, sir, did the --

22 the frequency or the scheduling of the re-supply convoys change in some

23 fashion?

24 A. Basically the scheduling was the same, only from March/April on,

25 the poor conditions that we had became even worse because from that moment

Page 2261

1 on a lot of the -- even more of the convoys were cancelled because they did

2 not get clearance from the Serb forces. Next to the re-supplying, also

3 personnel from DutchBat that went on leave were not allowed to return to --

4 to the enclave. So the situation tightened. Less convoys came through,

5 and we had more problems, personnel and material-wise.

6 Q. Now, sir, you were a platoon commander. Is that correct? I want

7 to ask you how the restrictions on the re-supply affected your operability

8 on the ground, that is, how did it affect your ability to do your job?

9 A. Well, of course the personnel situation was of a sort that if you

10 don't have enough food or drinking water, your health situation diminishes

11 and there were a lot of people from DutchBat that had problems with their

12 health, stomach problems or otherwise, weakened. Next to that, the

13 operational -- the observation posts tried to change -- tried to -- tried

14 to trade with the local population to give them coffee and we would receive

15 bread in order to keep that -- keep that in a better shape, to keep

16 themselves in a better shape. For me as the platoon commander stationed in

17 Potocari and in charge of re-supplying the observation posts, it meant that

18 we -- because of the lack of fuel, we had to do that, re-supplying by foot,

19 four- or five-hour patrol, using horses from the local population, to carry

20 food packets up to the observation post that were situated on the hilltops.

21 Because there was not enough fuel to do our patrolling with the vehicles we

22 had, so this also meant for the operational side that we had less

23 information of the area and were less frequently present because the

24 patrols were only manageable on foot.

25 Q. Just going back to something you mentioned a few moments ago,

Page 2262

1 sir. You mentioned some of the soldiers having stomach problems. What

2 were they eating?

3 A. We only ate rations. Basically, the last four months of the --

4 of the tour every day, which meant that there were so much preservatories

5 present in that canned food that they had stomach problems every time they

6 ate something or drank something.

7 Q. Now, would you describe for the Trial Chamber, sir, the effect,

8 if any, on the restrictions on your weapons systems, your individual

9 weapons and your ammunition as well, please.

10 A. When it came to our individual weapons, we had no possibility to

11 train with them, but also the state in which they were, they were already a

12 few years there. It was a poor state. Next to that, the ammunition we had

13 for our personal fire-arms were in such a state that sometimes even the

14 bullets fell out of the casings because they were too old to be used. And

15 when it comes to rocket-launchers or bigger ammunition, the indicators for

16 the humidity were so far out of the -- so far out in the red that it was

17 dangerous to shoot them, to use them, because of the possibility they would

18 explode in -- in the hands of the person that wanted to fire them.

19 Q. And were you able to repair any of these weapons, whether it's

20 the rocket-launchers or your personal weapons?

21 A. No. We had limited means to repair, and when weapons are in such

22 a state, there's no repairing them. You just have to have new weapons or

23 new ammunition, which was not possible because of the convoys being refused

24 and not having clearance.

25 Q. And how about spare parts for the weapons, were there any

Page 2263

1 restrictions on spare parts coming into the enclave by the VRS?

2 A. The spare parts were treated the same, more or less as the other

3 convoys. So also those spare parts or new weapons were refused to be

4 brought in.

5 Q. Sir, I want to turn your attention now to July of 1995 and ask

6 whether you recall the VRS attack on the enclave?

7 A. Yes, of course.

8 Q. Do you recall approximately when that attack began?

9 A. The attack started at the 6th of July when the first rockets came

10 flying overhead and the first bombings started. We had to go to the bunker

11 when I was at the -- at the base at Potocari at that time.

12 Q. Did you actually observe shells in the air?

13 A. I actually saw rockets flying overhead, coming from the direction

14 of the north part and aimed at the -- at the town of Srebrenica.

15 Q. And could you describe the intensity of the shelling, sir?

16 A. It was very intense, constant shelling of the whole area, and to

17 give an idea that from January on it was the task of the platoons and the

18 observation posts to count the number of shootings and detonations that we

19 heard or saw in the enclave. But from the 6th of July, we basically

20 stopped because there was no counting the number because it was constant

21 and very intense.

22 Q. Can you recall approximately how many days the shelling lasted?

23 A. Basically from that day until the day that the Serb forces

24 entered the enclave and took over, so that's the 12th.

25 Q. I want to turn your attention now to the 9th of July, Major, and

Page 2264

1 ask you whether you received an order at that time to take up a certain

2 position.

3 A. On the 9th I got the assignment to go with the rest of my platoon

4 because two of my groups were already positioned on the OPs Romeo and

5 Quebec, but with the rest of my platoon and with the quick-reaction force

6 to go and help the Bravo Company setting up the blocking positions south of

7 Srebrenica town in order to stop the advancing of the Serb forces.

8 Q. And do you recall approximately what time and what date you

9 established those blocking positions, sir?

10 A. I think it was the end of the 9th when I got the -- the

11 assignment, and during the night I want over to Bravo Company and Captain

12 Groen briefed me on the situation and gave me the mission to take in Bravo

13 3 location. And so during that night in the early morning of the 10th, I

14 was present at that -- at that location.

15 Q. And would you describe for the Trial Chamber, please, where that

16 blocking position was actually located.

17 A. It was in the southern part of Srebrenica town on a road that

18 went from Srebrenica town to a former town called Crni Guber, if I

19 pronounce it correctly, and it was on a road looking south -- south of the

20 town of Srebrenica.

21 Q. And from that position were you able to observe the town of

22 Srebrenica, sir?

23 A. Yes. To the north I saw the town of Srebrenica, and to the south

24 I saw the hills south of the town. But I was able to look both ways.

25 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I see that it is 3.45, so we'll take a

Page 2265

1 break.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

3 We'll have a break until 4 -- ten minutes past 4.00, ten minutes

4 past 4.00. Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So now we'll go till 5.00. We'll have a break at

8 5.00, and then we will resume at 5.30. And from 5.30 right through 7.00.


10 Q. Major, when we broke you were describing your blocking position

11 just south of Srebrenica town. Were you able to observe the shelling of

12 the town from that blocking position?

13 A. Yes, I was. Shelling was on our location, but also on the town.

14 And it changed every half-hour, 45 minutes, they would shell on the town.

15 We could see the shelling --

16 MR. THAYER: Major, one moment. We're having some technical

17 issues.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you follow the transcript?

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to re-connect basically.

23 JUDGE KWON: It's working.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 MR. THAYER: Do we have lift-off, Mr. President?

Page 2266

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I think we have got everything here. Let me

2 check that the pages and lines tally.

3 Yes, you can go ahead, Mr. Thayer.

4 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We're fine.


7 Q. Major, you were just describing the shelling that you both

8 observed and experienced from your blocking position. Would you please

9 continue.

10 A. We could see the shelling coming down on the town of Srebrenica,

11 and as I said, every 30, 45 minutes it would change. It would go quiet for

12 five to ten minutes, and then the shelling would start at our -- our own

13 location. And then we would have that again for the same period of time,

14 and then it would change again to shell the town. And we could see it from

15 -- I could see it from my location, shelling, hitting houses, and houses

16 exploding or -- after that, the detonations and smoke coming from houses

17 from that detonations and shellings.

18 Q. Now, you described shelling of your position. Can you describe

19 for the Trial Chamber, please, the proximity with which the shells were

20 striking near your position.

21 A. Shells fell down approximately between 50 and 100 metres from my

22 APC, even so dirt coming from that -- from the impacts fell on our APCs, so

23 very close by my location.

24 Q. Did you later adjust your blocking position, sir?

25 A. Yes. Later on we withdrew a little back towards an intersection

Page 2267

1 basically more towards the other APCs that were also standing in the

2 blocking position.

3 Q. And was this at a particular location within Srebrenica town,

4 sir, to which you drew back?

5 A. It was a closer-by, a crossroads, and close to an area which

6 contained also the warehouse.

7 Q. Now, during this time did you have an opportunity to observe the

8 inhabitants of Srebrenica?

9 A. Yes. At first, even during the night, we could see a lot of

10 people fleeing from the south or coming from the south with everything they

11 could carry and going to the northern part of the enclave. We could see a

12 lot of civilians that were very scared and frightened, of course, and they

13 would cross our position and go and follow the road to the north. Next to

14 the civilians, we also saw of course the Muslim soldiers that at first

15 stayed on our location, and later on also went up to the north. And then

16 finally, we were there alone, standing there alone, in a desolated part of

17 the town.

18 Q. So where did you spend the night of 10 July, Major?

19 A. I spent it in the APC doing cat-naps, more or less staying in

20 close contact with the other APCs and the rest of my personnel.

21 Q. So that brings us to the morning of 11 July. Major, can you

22 describe the scene in Srebrenica at that time?

23 A. When I came from -- because that was basically the period when we

24 were drawing back through the town because the whole area, the southern

25 area of Srebrenica was empty, no one was there. All the refugees were gone

Page 2268

1 and also the Muslim soldiers were -- were gone. So that gave us the

2 opportunity to retreat and get in closer contact with the -- the civilians

3 that had gathered at the compound of Bravo Company in Srebrenica town

4 itself. When we came there, it was one big chaos where people were very

5 scared and hysterical and running through each other and grabbing whatever

6 they could take with them and running or walking to the north, following

7 the road. It was, in one word, a chaos.

8 Q. So what did you and your men do, Major, from there?

9 A. At that time, my mission was to withdraw to the compound of Bravo

10 Company in order to take up position there so they could leave there and

11 withdraw to Potocari. And my mission was to stay there and to make more or

12 less other blocking positions to give them time to retreat and to give all

13 the refugees time to make their way to the north to the area of Potocari.

14 Q. Now, you described the chaos and the refugees moving north. Were

15 they assisted in any fashion by other members of DutchBat in that move to

16 the north, sir?

17 A. Yes, we tried in any way to help them by getting refugees that

18 were not able to walk or go north by themselves, getting them on vehicles,

19 on trucks, or even on our own APCs, aiding refugees while helping. So we

20 had soldiers walking with the refugees to -- to the north, and basically we

21 tried to help them in any way we could at that time, which was helping them

22 getting away from that place to the north.

23 Q. And can you describe the positioning of you and your men in

24 relation to this mass of people that were moving north to Potocari?

25 A. At first we were standing next to the compound of Bravo Company

Page 2269

1 in the middle of chaotic circumstances with a lot of refugees, but the

2 refugees were leaving and at the stage that everything was empty, so every

3 refugee had left that location. We took up another position more to the

4 north, in order so that we could see basically the -- the back of the

5 caravan of refugees going to the north, and we would have a few hundred

6 metres from them and taking up blocking positions every time. If we lost

7 sight of them, we would move north again to take up another blocking

8 position, in order to safe-guard the retreat of all the refugees.

9 Q. And would you please, Major, describe for the Trial Chamber what

10 would happen as you proceeded north, taking those blocking positions one at

11 a time?

12 A. Basically when we took up our position we were staying there

13 until of course all the refugees were -- were gone and had the possibility

14 to go to the north. The people that were not able to walk or had other

15 problems, we would take in or on top of our APC. And we would stay in that

16 location as long as possible. Basically that meant until the shelling near

17 to our location started again. We could see that the shelling came closer

18 to our location, and that was for us a sign to retreat another few hundred

19 metres again and take up position until the shelling on that position would

20 start again.

21 Q. And physically, where were the shells falling in relation to your

22 position, sir?

23 A. Basically we could see that the shelling would start in a normal

24 way shelling is conducted. So a few shells would fall further from our

25 location, sometimes even behind our position. Then the shells would fall

Page 2270

1 in front of our position, and then that was, for us, the sign to leave

2 because the next shells would hit in the direct vicinity of our position.

3 That is a normal procedure when you conduct artillery fire, so that is

4 basically the course of events that happened.

5 Q. And what kinds of weapons did you have available to you in your

6 APC?

7 A. Next to the white UN APC that was clearly visible, we only had a

8 heavy machine-gun mounted on top. We had our personal fire-arms, and we

9 had some rocket-launchers that, as I mentioned before, had the humidity

10 indicators well in the red area.

11 Q. Do you recall where you spent the night of 11 July, Major?

12 A. The night of the 11th, I took up a position near the point 02, a

13 location as we know as 0.02, and we positioned four APCs, two on each side

14 of the road, and we spent the night there.

15 Q. Would you describe where this 0.02 location is in respect to the

16 main compound in Potocari, sir?

17 A. It is just south of the main compound, and it must have been 1 or

18 2 kilometres south of the entrance of the compound, in which you have an

19 intersection, a road leading to, as we know, OP Mike, and a town of

20 Susnjari.

21 Q. While you were waiting at 0.02, Major, or while you were posted

22 there, were you waiting for anyone in particular?

23 A. At first we took up the position at 0.02. Just a few hours later

24 we took up a position of just north of 0.02 because the shelling at 0.02

25 was also too heavy to with stand. So we took up a position just north of

Page 2271

1 that, a location, but we also had to wait for Sergeant Mulder, the

2 commander of the OP Mike, which had radioed in and said that he would come

3 with his APC and escorting a caravan of refugees from the area of Susnjari.

4 And they would be walking alongside the APC and on top of the APC and

5 coming to the camp in Potocari.

6 Q. And did Mulder and the refugees in fact arrive, sir?

7 A. Yes. Late in the evening they arrived. It must have been around

8 somewhere 11.00, 12.00 at night, and I had a conversation with Sergeant

9 Mulder, as my personnel helped getting all the refugees off the APC. And

10 just to give an estimation of the amount of refugees, it took us about 45

11 minutes to get all the refugees off the APC because they were all seated on

12 top of the APC. And the rest of the people that were walking alongside the

13 APC went through to the other refugees that were situated on the -- on the

14 areas just south of the compound.

15 Q. Now, at this position a bit north of 0.02, did you also see any

16 Muslim men at that time?

17 A. In fact, that was still when we were located at 0.02, we saw a

18 big group of men going towards Susnjari, so leaving from 0.02 towards OP

19 Mike, so the other direction, and we could see them leaving -- carrying

20 small-calibre weapons with them. Men of all sorts of age, even young boys

21 and old men with them. Not all of them were armed, but they were all men

22 and going in that direction.

23 Q. Did you see anyone you recognised, sir?

24 A. I recognised a small boy of about 11 or 12 years old. I don't

25 recall his name, but he was living in a town near to OP Quebec, and he even

Page 2272

1 helped my platoon members in getting water for the OP and stuff like that.

2 So we -- I knew him from -- from his face and also from his name, and he

3 was also in that caravan.

4 Q. So that brings us now to the morning of 12 July, Major. Were you

5 still posted at that location just to the north of 0.02?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. Did you receive any briefing at that time concerning the status

8 of the other OPs?

9 A. At 6.00 in the morning I heard over the radio that my last OP, OP

10 Quebec, because OP Romeo was already gone, that OP Quebec also was no

11 longer there and the personnel was taken by the Serb soldiers away from

12 that location and basically there were no more present there at OP Quebec.

13 Q. And, Major, did you at some point that morning also receive

14 information that Bosnian Serb forces had in fact been sighted on or near

15 the UN compound in Potocari?

16 A. Yes. Later that morning basically the message was that Bosnian

17 Serb soldiers had taken over -- the Bosnian Serb forces had taken over the

18 enclave, and they were also sighted near the UN compound in Potocari and --

19 which led to the assignment for us to put away our weapons, to raise our

20 heavy machine-gun which was mounted on the APCs to the skies. We had to

21 put all our personal weapons in one APC, which was my APC. And basically

22 what was left for us then - and that was also the assignment I got - that

23 we from that moment on only could give humanitarian aid, because the Serb

24 forces had taken over the enclave.

25 Q. Now, did you yourself subsequently see VRS soldiers; and if so,

Page 2273

1 can you describe for the Trial Chamber from what direction they were coming

2 and in what direction they were headed, sir?

3 A. The first Serb soldiers I saw were soldiers that were moving

4 through the fields east of my location, and they would come up the road at

5 0.02. And after some of those forces had searched the houses in the

6 vicinity of 0.02, they came up walking north to -- to my location. And

7 other Serb forces were coming from the north and also the -- through the

8 radio we could hear that Serb forces crossed the -- the OP Papa that was

9 north -- the most northern check-point at the road, and they were moving

10 south. So basically at the same time Serb forces came up from the south to

11 the north, from OP -- from 0.02, and from the north to the south at my

12 location.

13 Q. And what can you recall about the clothing or uniforms, insignia

14 and so forth, that these Serb soldiers were wearing?

15 A. Basically the clothing was of a military type, but it was a

16 mixture of all sorts of personal items with bandannas and with all sorts of

17 colours mixed with camouflage pattern clothing. And I recall one of that

18 soldiers having Serb flag draped around his soldiers.

19 Q. So your weapons are locked away, your gun is up, and you're

20 seeing the soldiers arrive. What did you do next, Major?

21 A. After the initial stage which we saw Serb soldiers handing out

22 cigarettes and all sorts of stuff to make some sort of a propaganda for

23 themselves, I thought that I had to look for a place where I could make

24 myself useful. And after a conversation with Captain Groen, I went to the

25 north to see if there was anything I could do more on the location where

Page 2274

1 the -- the most of the refugees were situated just south of the compound

2 near the factory sites.

3 Q. And did you in fact proceed up to that location, Major?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Would you describe to the Trial Chamber what you saw there.

6 A. When I came up there, there was just a sort of a human chain of

7 UN soldiers made to try to keep the refugees calm, and there was a lot of

8 panicking and scared refugees present at that time there. And I took over

9 -- basically, I took over from a colleague that was -- that was in charge

10 there. But the situation was like I described before, chaotic, a lot of

11 people were frightened, screaming and cramped together. And no one knew

12 basically what would happen next.

13 MR. THAYER: At this time, I'd ask that 65 ter number 1516 be

14 displayed, please. And can we actually flip that upside down? Thank you.

15 Q. Sir, I'd just ask you to take a moment and orient yourself to

16 what's being displayed and ask you if you can identify what that depicts.

17 A. In the centre of the picture I see the UN compound that was based

18 in Potocari.

19 Q. And for the purposes of the way we positioned this, which

20 direction is north, sir?

21 A. North is pointing up.

22 Q. You described a factory area where you went to provide assistance

23 to the other UNPROFOR soldiers and where you saw the refugees behind the

24 human chain. I'd ask you if you can take -- there's a stylus to the right

25 of the computer there. It's actually connected and Madam Usher will give

Page 2275

1 you a hand with that. Now, I'd ask you to circle that factory area that

2 you described on this map.

3 A. Not all of the area is on this map --

4 Q. Okay.

5 MR. THAYER: If we could maybe lift it up just a little bit,

6 please.

7 Q. Is that better, Major?

8 A. Yeah, that's better. The general location or the whole area

9 would be here.

10 Q. I note that you've drawn a circle around a particular area that

11 appears to bestride a road. And can you describe what road that is, sir?

12 A. That is the road from the north, basically the only asphalted

13 road in the enclave, going from north to south. From Bratunac to the down

14 of Srebrenica.

15 Q. And would you also, while you're at it, please just indicate

16 where the main DutchBat 3 compound itself was located.

17 A. Yeah.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So next to this so-called rectangle that you have

19 just outlined, could you kindly put DC, the letters DC or Dutch compound.

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And where you put the egg-shaped

22 outline further down, could you describe it in your own words, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Refugee area. Okay. And could you just

25 draw a small line along the road with -- that you indicated or you referred

Page 2276

1 to before with an arrow pointing towards Srebrenica.

2 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it has to be higher because I don't think

4 it will show in --


6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I mean, I'm not an expert on this.

7 Will it show on the record or not?

8 MR. THAYER: I'm not an expert either, Mr. President.



11 Q. I would just ask that if maybe if you can draw the arrow inside

12 that little egg shape and I think we will be safe.

13 A. Okay.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it will be safer, yeah.

15 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And put an S just below the point, the

17 arrow point.

18 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it. And in between the two outlines could

20 you just sign your name, please affix your signature.

21 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's initials, but it's okay.

23 [Microphone not activated].

24 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Madam Usher.

25 Q. Just looking at that -- this image, sir. Can you just describe

Page 2277

1 approximately where your final blocking position was, just to give the

2 Court an idea of how far you had to proceed to get there. If it's even on

3 the map itself.

4 A. My last location just north of 0.02, is just not on the map.

5 It's just I think 400, 500 metres south of the last area I described as the

6 refugee area and just north of the intersection 0.02.

7 Q. While you were working with the other UN soldiers at the factory

8 area you described, did you see any high-level VRS officers arrive at that

9 location?

10 A. I saw General Mladic making a visit to -- to the area.

11 Q. And how did you know it was Mladic, sir?

12 A. Because I recognised him from things I had seen before on

13 television, and of course from our training before we went to the area.

14 Q. And what, if anything, did you observe General Mladic doing while

15 he was there?

16 A. Basically to me it was an extension of the thing -- the Serb

17 soldiers -- the first Serb soldiers I had observed in the enclave also did

18 was making more or less of a sort of a propaganda visit, handing out drinks

19 or food to refugees.

20 Q. And did you meet any other VRS personnel who identified

21 themselves as high-level?

22 A. The person from the VRS that identified himself as Mane, stating

23 that he was a captain of a military police unit. He asked me if I was the

24 high-ranking UN soldier in the area, so basically the commander there,

25 outside of the compound of the UN. And he stated to me that he was the

Page 2278

1 commander -- the local commander of the Serb forces there. And his name

2 was Mane.

3 Q. Was this Captain Mane accompanied by anyone?

4 A. Mane was accompanied by his interpreter Miki. Mane only spoke

5 Serbo-Croatian, and Miki interpreted into English.

6 Q. And did Mane identify any particular unit he was with?

7 A. He told me then that he was a military police unit and that he

8 had some sort of liaison with the Drina Wolves, which at that time I

9 thought was the Drina Corps. So Drina Wolves for me at that time was the

10 same as the Drina Corps. And he stated to me that the military police unit

11 had a liaison with the Drina Wolves but was not a part of the Drina Wolves.

12 Q. And at some point did you learn who this Captain Mane's commander

13 was?

14 A. At a certain stage he told me that his commander was code-named

15 or nicknamed Stalin, and at several locations I also saw Stalin visiting

16 the area.

17 Q. Did anyone give you a description of this Stalin before you

18 actually saw Stalin?

19 A. Mane described him to me, and even when Stalin visited the area

20 he pointed him out to me and stated that this man he had pointed out was

21 Stalin.

22 Q. When you referred to code-name Stalin, what type of code are you

23 referring to?

24 A. A code-name in the sense of when using the radio he used the name

25 Stalin. That was the only name Mane told me about that person.

Page 2279

1 Q. And what was the description that this Mane gave you of Stalin at

2 the time?

3 A. Basically it was a very short description. A short person with a

4 big pair of Ray-Ban sunglasses on, and together with him pointing that

5 person out to me it was very clear that he meant that person.

6 Q. Anything else other than the Ray-Ban sunglasses that you

7 remember?

8 A. Maybe he had told me at that time but I can't remember now.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. It was a very clear description of Stalin.

11 Q. Now, at some point did you see someone who appeared to you to be

12 Stalin's superior speaking with this Stalin?

13 A. At some point I saw Stalin visiting the area, together with a

14 well-known figure for us as Major Nikolic. Major Nikolic was a figure that

15 was the whole period we were present there and even before our time was a

16 well-known character. And I saw Major Nikolic together with Stalin, in

17 which -- from which I drew the conclusion that Nikolic was the superior of

18 Stalin. Nikolic more or less made some sort of an inspection visit with

19 Stalin next to him. Nikolic walked in the centre of the road, Stalin

20 alongside him, which seemed to me in gestures that he was explaining to

21 Nikolic what was happening and what was going on and how they organised

22 things. So that was the visit of Nikolic and Stalin.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's specify which Nikolic this is. Referring to

24 which Nikolic, Major Nikolic, do you know his first name by any chance?

25 THE WITNESS: I've heard his first name later on. At that time I

Page 2280

1 only knew him as Major Nikolic, but later on I learned that it was Momir

2 Nikolic.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


5 Q. Now, Major, in addition to the VRS officers whom you've just

6 described, do you recall meeting any other VRS officers during this period

7 of time on the 12th?

8 A. Like I told, there was a visit from General Mladic, and I also

9 had a discussion with him.

10 Q. And do you remember whether Mr. -- or General Mladic was

11 accompanied by anyone during the visits with whom you had a conversation

12 who may have identified himself as a logistics officer?

13 A. I don't know if that person identified himself to me as a

14 logistics officer came together with General Mladic, but basically in the

15 same period of time as General Mladic visited my location. After that, I

16 also had a meeting with or came into contact with a person that said he was

17 a colonel, and his name was Jankovic. And he told me that he was a

18 logistics officer.

19 Q. And what language were you speaking with this colonel, sir?

20 A. I spoke with him in English. He spoke excellent English.

21 Q. Can you describe what he was wearing?

22 A. He wore a uniform, a complete uniform together with a leather

23 document brief-case more or less, bag.

24 Q. And what was this Colonel Jankovic doing that you could see, sir?

25 A. It looked like he was more or less inspecting the area, looking

Page 2281

1 around to see what -- what was happening.

2 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I see that it's 5.00.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

4 MR. THAYER: It's time for the break.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

6 We'll have a 30-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

7 --- Recess taken at 4.59 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 5.33 p.m.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Thank you.

10 MR. THAYER: Thanks, Mr. President.

11 Q. Major, when we broke you had just described meeting a series of

12 Bosnian Serb officers. When we met some -- probably two weeks ago now, did

13 I show you a series of photographs?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you identify various individuals in those photographs?

16 A. I recognised a few of the individuals, yes.

17 MR. THAYER: For the record, Your Honours, I'm going to be

18 referring to various video stills which are contained in 65 ter 1936. It's

19 a book of still images from the trial video, which I believe was

20 distributed to Your Honours and to the Defence counsel as well. What we

21 will be showing are a few of those stills except with the identifying

22 information obviously cropped from the still, but I will identify each

23 still by the chapter and page number that's contained on the document in

24 case anybody wants to follow along with the -- with the actual document in

25 hard copy.

Page 2282

1 Q. For the record, sir, do you see an image before you?

2 A. Yes, now I do.

3 MR. THAYER: And for the record, this is chapter 16, page 5 of

4 that book and there is an image of a man to the left of this picture.

5 Q. Do you recognise that person, sir?

6 A. I recognise that person as being Mane.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness is being shown a still

8 image which bears ERN number 02164885. Thank you.

9 MR. THAYER: May we now see chapter 16, page 6.

10 Q. So I presume you recognise the person all the way to the right of

11 that photograph.

12 A. That person is myself.

13 MR. THAYER: And for the record, this is chapter 16, page 6 of

14 the photo stills book.

15 Q. There is an individual in the centre of the picture, sir. Do you

16 recognise that individual?

17 A. That person is Miki, and on the left side Mane again.

18 Q. And Miki is the individual in the blue vest. Is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 MR. THAYER: And if we could be shown chapter 8, page 4.

21 Q. I'd ask you whether you recognise anybody in this photograph; and

22 if you do, if you would identify who you remember, moving from left in the

23 image to right in the image, Major.

24 A. I recognise the person on the left wearing the sunglasses and the

25 moustache as being Stalin. Then in the centre I recognise General Mladic,

Page 2283

1 and on the right-hand side the two persons on the right-hand side, one

2 wearing the sunglasses and a little bit left to him were the body-guards of

3 General Mladic.

4 Q. And we'll speak about --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We need to -- so the photo or still

6 image that the witness has been referred to is -- or bears ERN number

7 02164852. Thank you.

8 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 And if we may be shown --

10 JUDGE KWON: In my book it says chapter 10, page 6.

11 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour, I've been identifying it at the

12 chapter and page number that's at the bottom of the book.

13 JUDGE KWON: But you said chapter 8 in the transcript.

14 MR. THAYER: Oh, I apologise, it's chapter 10, page 6.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Kwon.

16 And thank you, Mr. Thayer.

17 MR. THAYER: And if we may be shown chapter 8, page 4, which

18 bears the ERN 0291-6181 in the top right-hand corner.

19 Q. Do you recognise the individuals in this photograph, sir?

20 A. I recognise on the left General Mladic and on the right a person

21 I know as Colonel Jankovic.

22 MR. THAYER: And finally if we may be shown chapter 9, page 1,

23 which bears the ERN 0291-7813 at the top right-hand corner.

24 Q. Major, do you recognise anyone in this photograph; and if so,

25 would you identify them moving from left to right on the image?

Page 2284

1 A. On the left-hand side I see the person that I know as Major

2 Nikolic, then moving to right I see Colonel Jankovic. And right from him,

3 the second person from the right, is one of the body-guards of General

4 Mladic.

5 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Major.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: There are four persons in the picture. You have --

7 you haven't told us whether you recognise the person at the extreme right

8 of the picture.

9 THE WITNESS: The person on the extreme right, Your Honour, I

10 don't recognise.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it. Thank you.


13 Q. Now, let's go back to when you first met Captain Mane, Major. I

14 believe you testified that he approached you and identified himself. Did

15 he tell you why he was approaching you?

16 A. He wanted to know if I was the local commander of the UN at that

17 position or outside the compound, and he told me that the refugees were

18 going to be transported out of the -- out of the enclave. And he wanted to

19 know whether the UN would stay there or would go back to the compound; that

20 was basically the choice he gave me when he was telling me that they were

21 going to do the transports of the refugees.

22 Q. Can you describe what Captain Mane's demeanour and tone of voice

23 were when he told you that, sir.

24 A. He was very clear and he brought it as a fact that the refugees

25 were going to leave Srebrenica. He told me that 200 buses -- he mentioned

Page 2285

1 the number of 200 -- were coming to pick up the refugees, and he brought it

2 to me as a matter of fact. And he just wanted to know from me whether the

3 UN would stay or would withdraw to the UN compound in Potocari.

4 Q. Now, Major, based on what he said and the way he said it to you,

5 what did you decide to do?

6 A. The fact that he also mentioned that the refugees were going to

7 leave and that he wanted to know if the UN would stay, or otherwise the

8 Serbs would do it their own way. The way he said it and the words he chose

9 made me decide to stay there. Next to this, I thought it was one of our

10 assignments to provide, if possible, humanitarian aid to the refugees. So

11 I decided to stay there in the middle between the Muslim refugees and the

12 Serb soldiers, instead of retreating to the UN compound.

13 Q. Now, you just mentioned being in the middle of the refugees and

14 the Serb soldiers. Do you mean that literally, sir?

15 A. Yes, literally.

16 Q. Did the buses arrive?

17 A. Yes. Shortly after that - I don't know if it was the exact

18 amount Mane mentioned - but there were a lot of buses but also trucks

19 there, which indicated that what Mane had told me was a fact. Next to

20 this, I was into contact with Major Franken, which was the second in

21 command in our battalion, and he also stated that he -- he had heard

22 something about the refugees being transported, so that made it clear to me

23 that this really was the case.

24 Q. So what did you do?

25 A. Of course we already were there in basically a human chain to try

Page 2286

1 to keep the refugees calm, using interpreters to try to get them to sit

2 down, to get out of the sun because the heat was -- was incredible, and

3 people were collapsing from dehydration and the heat itself. So we

4 literally stood in the middle and we try to keep the families together as

5 they were let through to the -- to the transportation devices, buses and

6 trucks and whatsoever. Basically the way it worked was that Mane told me

7 how many buses or trucks that were present, so how many refugees could be

8 seated in those trucks. And I would give orders to the UN soldiers to let

9 people through, and letting them through in small groups so they would not

10 trample each other and we could help those families to stay together and

11 not getting hurt in another way because of the crowd that was -- that was

12 tremendous.

13 Q. Now, at that point, Major, were men and women being let through

14 together?

15 A. We always tried to keep families together and also when the

16 amount of people was too big to be transported in the buses or trucks, we

17 would also always make the division to keep families together so to keep a

18 family at our location or let the whole family through. So we always let

19 the men -- families together, so also the men together with their families.

20 And at first this also was executed. Later on, I noticed that the men were

21 singled out and they were no longer kept with their families.

22 Q. And did you observe what, if anything, was being done with those

23 men who were being singled out, Major?

24 A. The Serb soldiers behind my location singled out the Muslim men,

25 and they were put to a lawn in front of houses without any facade. And

Page 2287

1 they were put there to wait. They sat down on the lawn in front of the

2 house, and of course I questioned Mane why they singled out the men from

3 the women and children.

4 Q. And what did Mane tell you, if anything, in response to your

5 question?

6 A. Mane told me that they had a list of war criminal, Muslim war

7 criminals, and that they were going to check if the persons, the men they

8 singled out, were on the list of war criminals, which they wanted to try

9 for their criminal actions earlier in the war.

10 Q. And how did that explanation strike you at that time, Major?

11 A. Basically it was a clear explanation, and it is something armed

12 forces do when they are in a conflict together and you make prisoners of

13 war. And the explanation at that time was credible.

14 MR. THAYER: If we may be shown a clean copy of 65 ter 1516,

15 please. And if we could just magnify it a little bit, as we did before, or

16 a little less, please. Perfect.

17 Q. Sir, do you see an image before you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And again, can you describe just generally what this is for the

20 Court.

21 A. The centre of the picture I see the UN compound, the base of

22 Potocari, and of course the road alongside it from north to south.

23 Q. And, sir, based on your knowledge of -- of that -- the compound

24 and the area, is this aerial photograph a fair and accurate depiction of

25 that location as you recall it?

Page 2288

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, you've never -- have you ever flown over the

3 area?

4 THE WITNESS: No, sir, no.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


7 Q. Based on your knowledge of the geography, sir, I'd ask if you

8 could identify on this image the house that you described seeing some of

9 the Muslim men being directed to on the 12th of July.

10 MR. THAYER: And I'd ask Madam Usher to assist Major Van Duijn in

11 that, please.

12 THE WITNESS: I'll try to circle the lawn in front of the houses.

13 And in this area, this was the lawn where the -- the men were -- were

14 gathered.


16 Q. And if you would, just to --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. So -- sorry to interrupt you like

18 this, Mr. Thayer, I hate it. But -- Major, could you kindly write "lawn"

19 next to -- next to that marking, please.

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much.

22 Mr. Thayer.

23 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: If we are going to save it, he needs to sign it,

25 too.

Page 2289

1 MR. THAYER: And if you would just place your initials or your

2 signature --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought you hadn't finished with it, so that's

4 why I didn't intervene with it before.

5 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think it can be safely saved now, and I

7 understand it will be tendered later on.

8 Yes, go ahead, Mr. Thayer.

9 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Major, a moment ago you testified about the explanation you

11 received from Captain Mane. Did you nevertheless intervene or protest with

12 respect to certain separations that you observed?

13 A. The explanation from Captain Mane was that they wanted to search

14 for war criminals; and although that was credible, I objected every time

15 there was a clear view of the Serb soldiers singling out boys or old men

16 that were too old or too young to be soldiers. So I objected with Mane

17 when -- when the situation happened.

18 Q. And on those occasions, Major, what would the result of your

19 intervention be?

20 A. On all the occasions I objected with Mane, he would let the --

21 the men go through and accompany the rest of their family to the buses. So

22 at least at that position we had kept those boys or older men with their

23 families together.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer, again, sorry for interrupting you,

25 but we had a problem with saving the image that the witness signed.

Page 2290

1 Major, you need to sign it again.


3 JUDGE AGIUS: In whichever place you choose, and then it can be

4 signed -- then it can be saved.

5 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think we can proceed, Mr. Thayer.

7 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Major, you described Captain Mane's role and his interaction with

9 you, but who was actually conducting the separations and directing the

10 refugees on to the various vehicles?

11 A. The Serb forces in the area. The UN soldiers never separated the

12 men from the women and children.

13 Q. And to your knowledge did the UN soldiers ever participate in

14 actually placing people on the buses?

15 A. The only thing I remember and I recall is helping people to get

16 on a truck, which I personally did myself as well. But just in a way to

17 help people getting on to a truck or into the bus because they were not

18 able to do that themselves.

19 Q. And from where you were located, sir, who was in command of those

20 soldiers and that process?

21 A. From my point of view, that was Mane.

22 Q. Major, did you receive any reports from your men as to how the

23 refugees were being treated as they boarded the buses?

24 A. Later on during the day I got reports that women and children and

25 the people that wanted to board the buses were kicked or beaten by Serb

Page 2291

1 soldiers to -- to get them into the buses, and that they were mistreated

2 when they came near to the buses, which was a little bit more north of my

3 location. So I could not see it myself, but I heard the report from

4 soldiers that were there in that area.

5 Q. And did you observe any incidents yourself of that nature?

6 A. On my location there were a few incidents where basically the

7 area Mane and myself had agreed upon were crossed by Serb soldiers that

8 entered in the middle of the area where only UN soldiers were. And one

9 incident was very clear where a Serb soldier dressed in a black overall

10 took hold of the throat of a young boy and tried to get him out of the --

11 of the group of people he was standing in waiting to get through to the

12 buses. And at that point I intervened with Mane and convinced him that he

13 had to get his personnel away from that area because that basically was

14 what we agreed upon, that you had the group of Muslim refugees, then the UN

15 soldiers, and behind myself the Serb soldiers, and not the Serb soldiers in

16 the middle of the refugees.

17 Q. And how did the refugees react to being separated, sir?

18 A. Of course this was a terrible course of events when you have

19 families that want to be together and are placed in a position where

20 nothing is certain. They were shelled at, they were fleeing from their

21 homes. They only had some personal belongings with them which they could

22 carry, and of course at the early stages the place where they would go was

23 also uncertain. So this was a terrible situation when in that period of

24 time also families were separated from each other, and men were being

25 singled out by Serb forces and families literally tried to keep hold of

Page 2292

1 each other and were forced by Serb soldiers to let go of each other and

2 have the men separated and brought to that first location on the lawn.

3 Q. Now, turning your attention, sir, to later that day, did General

4 Mladic appear again?

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 Q. And did you have an encounter with the General at that time?

7 A. At first we had some sort of a general conversation in which he

8 asked me if I was the commander on site, and we spoke about general things

9 as soccer, football, the weather, and sports. And he wanted to know some

10 things about the UN soldiers that were present at that location which were

11 with me at that time.

12 Q. And how was -- what language was this conversation being

13 conducted in, sir?

14 A. General Mladic also had his interpreter with him, and I had an

15 interpreter which was the dedicated interpreter of Bravo Company, but of

16 course Bravo Company was not in place anymore. So this was a Muslim

17 interpreter that helped me during that first day.

18 Q. Now, you indicated that General Mladic had some questions about

19 your colleagues in DutchBat. Can you describe that conversation and any

20 further detail for the Trial Chamber, please.

21 A. There were a few DutchBat soldiers sitting alongside the road,

22 and my conversation with General Mladic was just in front of them. And he

23 asked me if I was from the Netherlands, and he also asked the soldiers if

24 they were also from the Netherlands. And there was one Dutch soldier from

25 apparently an African heritage with dark skin. And General Mladic asked me

Page 2293

1 if he was also from the Netherlands or if he was from Ethiopia. And I

2 explained to him that we had a multi-ethnic society in the Netherlands,

3 multi-racial, and there were a lot of people looking different but they

4 were all Dutch. And he answered to me that this was a big problem for the

5 Netherlands and that in ten years from then the Serb army would be in the

6 Netherlands protecting us from the Muslims and other races. And I told him

7 I didn't believe him.

8 Q. Were the separations and transportation taking place in your area

9 while this encounter with General Mladic was happening, sir?

10 A. The whole process was still ongoing at that time, and General

11 Mladic stayed a period of time. Not all of that period I was speaking to

12 him, so he also was a period of time there without a conversation with me

13 but just him being in the area and the process ongoing.

14 Q. And while he was there, did you have to dispatch your interpreter

15 to approach the General about something, Major?

16 A. Yes. At some point when I was no longer into a conversation with

17 General Mladic but he was present, just about 50 to 100 metres behind my

18 position, there was a problem in the group of refugees. And through my

19 interpreter I heard that there was a mother totally hysterical and

20 panicking because her five children had already been let through. And she

21 had lost them in the -- in the chaos. And then it became clear to her

22 because she saw her five children sitting in one of the last trucks that

23 were already starting to leave the area, and she was still stuck in the

24 group of refugees. When my interpreter made that clear, I took the

25 decision to carry the woman fast, because she was a little bit weak, to the

Page 2294

1 truck to get her to her five children. But at that time I had to cross

2 basically the agreed line between the UN soldiers and the Serb soldiers

3 behind us. I saw that General Mladic was present, and I was afraid that

4 because of my action maybe one of the Serb soldiers would maybe even shoot

5 me. So I knew that the one person present who could prevent that was

6 General Mladic, so I sent my interpreter. I asked my interpreter to -- if

7 he wanted to help me. And after he said yes, I asked him to go over to

8 General Mladic, to run while I was running towards the trucks to explain to

9 him that I was not doing something strange or radical or whatever, but that

10 I was just bringing that woman to her children and that if he would make it

11 clear to his soldiers that they would not shoot me.

12 So I didn't look any further if this interpreter did that, and I

13 went running. I brought the mother to her children, and when I came back I

14 saw my interpreter standing near to General Mladic and I went over to them

15 to see if -- and it was clear to me that the interpreter helped me and had

16 done what I asked him to do.

17 Q. And would you describe what happened next, Major.

18 A. The -- General Mladic made some sort of a sick role play with the

19 interpreter in which he stated that General Mladic, himself, was a Muslim.

20 He asked me if I knew the interpreter, and I confirmed of course. And I

21 said: He's a good guy. He's a Serb, stating that my Muslim interpreter

22 was a Serb and that General Mladic himself was a Muslim. And that he, as a

23 Muslim - General Mladic I mean - was a bastard or other words -- I don't

24 know what he used then. And he only thought about making babies, but that

25 the interpreter -- and at that time also General Mladic took told of the

Page 2295

1 interpreter and crushed him to his body, was a good guy, was a good fellow,

2 because he was a Serb. But next to that, he also made clear that he didn't

3 understand my actions but he was very mad about me sending the Muslim

4 interpreter straight to General Mladic because it was not clear for him to

5 he was interpreting for me. But he had a problem with the interpreter

6 speaking directly to him. And he said that if that would happen again, he

7 would shoot the interpreter personally.

8 Q. And, Major, during this conversation who was actually doing the

9 interpreting?

10 A. The Muslim interpreter.

11 Q. And what was his reaction at the end of the conversation, sir?

12 A. He was incredibly scared, shivering, literally shivering all of

13 his body. And he was actually so scared that I decided to get him back

14 escorted -- let him be escorted back to the compound because he was not

15 able to be there anymore. And he -- just to tell you how scared he was, he

16 took hold of my back pocket, of the shorts I was wearing then, and he

17 didn't want to let go of me and my back pocket until I brought him to a

18 colleague that escorted him back to the compound.

19 Q. So how long did the separation and transport last on the 12th of

20 July, sir?

21 A. It lasted until the evening, until it started to get dark. And

22 then Captain Mane told me they would stop for the night, and the Serb

23 forces would go back to Bratunac and celebrate in Hotel Fontana. And he

24 told me to clear the road of people, the asphalted -- the only asphalted

25 road leading from north to south, because they would need -- the Serb

Page 2296

1 forces would need the road to transport troops to the south. And that the

2 next day, on the 13th, they would start again with the transport at around

3 8.30 in the morning.

4 Q. Did he also ask you for anything?

5 A. He wanted me to hand over my pistol to him, which I didn't have

6 anymore because at the starting of the day we had put the hand-guns in my

7 APC. But he insisted and we even went over to my APC, but we discovered

8 there that all the weapons were already gone from my APC and he was very

9 disappointed about that.

10 Q. Did he indicate to you whether he and his men would return the

11 next day; and if so, did he give you a time?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's just answered that.

13 MR. THAYER: Oh --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: He said clear: The way from north to south or from

15 south to north, because my men will return on the 13th and start with the

16 transport again at around 8.30 a.m.

17 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Your Honour. I clearly missed that.

18 Q. You had testified about the men sitting on the lawn in front of

19 those two houses. Did you see what happened to them, sir?

20 A. In that process of ending -- basically ending the activities of

21 the first day I saw that the men sitting on the lawn were transported by

22 the Serbs using a truck that I raised as the truck that had earlier in the

23 day had brought some bread and water, which I had requested through --

24 through Mane. And they were transported off from that lawn to a

25 destination unknown.

Page 2297

1 Q. Do you recall what direction they headed, sir?

2 A. They headed north.

3 Q. And where did you go after the separations and transportations

4 ended that day?

5 A. At first I briefed Lieutenant Koster who was taking over from me

6 for the night. I asked him to make some sort of a V-shaped tunnel with our

7 APCs that would make it easier for us the next day to keep hold of the

8 refugees, to keep them more together which would need less personnel from

9 us. So I asked him to re-arrange the APCs, and I left to go back to the

10 compound to have a few hours of sleep because at that time I was very tired

11 from the blocking positions and of course all the activities of the first

12 day which had left for me in three, four days only a few hours of the

13 sleep. So we agreed upon me getting back to the compound to have a few

14 hours of sleep and then returning the next morning early.

15 Q. And on your way back to the compound, sir, did you see anything

16 in particular that you recall now?

17 A. When I headed back, I saw a roll call of Serb forces. They were

18 standing in a U-shaped formation, and I recognised at the head of that roll

19 call the person I know as Stalin.

20 Q. And I won't show you that aerial photograph again, Major, but

21 could you just describe for the Trial Chamber approximately where that roll

22 call occurred.

23 A. On the way from my location, so basically the houses with the

24 lawn, towards the UN base on the left-hand side of the road. On the west

25 side you have the white house, and just before that, so between the house

Page 2298

1 with the lawn and the white house, they had the roll call on the middle of

2 the road.

3 Q. And do you recall approximately how many Serb soldiers you saw in

4 the roll call, sir?

5 A. If I have to make an estimation now, I would say somewhere around

6 50 to 70 people.

7 Q. And again, without trotting out that aerial photograph, sir, can

8 you describe for the Trial Chamber approximately where the separations that

9 you were observing took place. And if you care to refer to any of the

10 landmarks you've already talked about, please do.

11 A. Basically the separations occurred in exactly the area where the

12 roll call was, so between -- at the first day the house with the lawn and

13 before the house on the lawn on the road. And the second day, a little bit

14 more to the north on the location of the roll call just south of the white

15 house.

16 Q. Okay. You've referred to a white house, sir. That is -- is that

17 the same house that you were describing with the lawn in front of it or is

18 that a different house?

19 A. This is a different house closer to the UN compound just south of

20 the UN compound but on the other side of the road.

21 Q. Okay. And we'll talk about that in a little while.

22 So that brings us to the morning of 13 July. Did you return to

23 that same area where you had been working until the previous night, sir?

24 A. Yes. After, of course, briefing my commander when I came back

25 the night before and a few hours sleep, I went back to the position of

Page 2299

1 Lieutenant Koster which had taken over from me for the night, and I was

2 there approximately 6.00 in the morning. So earlier than the -- Mane had

3 stated the night before. And I took over from Koster again, and he

4 explained to me that -- the things that had happened during the night. And

5 I took over from him from that moment on.

6 Q. And just briefly, sir, without going into much detail, what did

7 Lieutenant Koster tell you he had heard happened over the previous night?

8 A. He basically explained what they had done, that they had been

9 physically with the Muslim refugees, trying to keep them calm because every

10 once in a while panic broke out, and that people were standing up and

11 running towards the location, they thought something had happened. Other

12 things that also happened was that people were injuring themselves, hitting

13 themselves on the head with bricks or something else in order to -- in the

14 hope that if they were injured or wounded, that they would get a better

15 treatment and would be treated and transported to the Red Cross. So next

16 to that self-inflicted wounds, there was also a man that had hung himself

17 during the night in one of the -- in one of the factory sites. And UN

18 personnel had to get him down off that position.

19 Q. Now, you and Lieutenant Koster had discussed placing the APCs in

20 a particular position. Had that been done by the time you returned in the

21 morning of the 13th, Major?

22 A. Yes, he had positioned the APCs that I requested to him, and they

23 resembled some sort of a V-shape on the road, narrowing the road a little

24 bit.

25 Q. So what happened next, Major?

Page 2300

1 A. Next -- after I took over from Koster and he was still present

2 there, we were both surprised that the -- the buses already entered the

3 enclave and were already present, and the bus drivers were basically

4 waiting for instructions. And at that time I decided to already start the

5 transports in order to keep the families together and let the families and

6 refugees enter the buses without being abused or kicked or whatever in --

7 in a normal fashion. So without the Serb forces, I started with the

8 transportation because it was clear to me that the refugees could not stay

9 there -- in fact, the refugees were even eager to leave the -- the place

10 where they had been there, the factory sites because there was a big threat

11 of epidemics starting to break out. People were sitting in their own

12 excrements. People were injured, people were wounded, so there was no

13 place for them without food, without water to stay, and it was clear that

14 they really had to leave there quickly. So I decided to already start the

15 transports.

16 Q. And did the Serb soldiers return that morning, sir?

17 A. As Mane had said before, the evening before, they returned at

18 8.30. They were even surprised that we already started the transports, but

19 I was very happy to learn that the NIOD report that was made later on and

20 was very detailed later took hold of Muslim men, refugees that in those

21 precious one and a half, two hours were able to leave the enclave in the

22 buses without being singled out by Serb soldiers. So I was very happy that

23 I started that morning without the Serb soldiers being present.

24 Q. So what happened when the Serb soldiers returned, sir?

25 A. When Mane and the Serb soldiers were present again from around

Page 2301

1 8.30, the men were being singled out again and the whole process, as the

2 first day, was started up again with that -- with one distinction, that the

3 men that were singled out were not brought to the house with the lawn - as

4 I described earlier - but to the white house which was closer to the

5 compound, just south of the compound, and a little bit more to the north.

6 Q. Now, on this second day of separations and transportations, sir,

7 who was conducting the separations and directing the refugees to the

8 vehicles?

9 A. The Serb forces and Mane leading them.

10 Q. And at some point during that day, do you remember an incident

11 involving a water truck?

12 A. Basically after the -- the big group of refugees was already

13 gone, so there was no huge concentration of people anymore, so the task of

14 the UN soldiers was becoming less. And we were just helping the sick and

15 the wounded and helping them to either go to the Red Cross or to go to the

16 buses. One of my soldiers came up and told me that the water truck that we

17 had placed to -- near to the -- the place where we had the injured and the

18 wounded people assembled to be treated by -- in any which way we could by

19 our medical staff, that the Serb forces wanted to take away that water

20 truck. That's when I decided to go over there to explain that the water

21 truck was not for the UN, although it was a white UN-marked water truck,

22 but that it was basically a water truck that was there for the sick and the

23 wounded. And the Serb forces tried to -- tried to tow it away with a

24 tractor.

25 Q. Now, while you were dealing with this issue, sir, were you

Page 2302

1 informed about a problem with this white house to which you had referred

2 earlier in your testimony?

3 A. During that whole process of me protesting against taking away of

4 the water truck, one of the UNMOs, Mr. Kingori, came up to me and he

5 explained to me that there was a problem with the white house and that it

6 was too crowded with -- with men that were singled out. And basically it

7 was necessary to take a look there and to see what we could do to help the

8 men that were there.

9 MR. THAYER: Now, if we may at this time be shown a clean copy of

10 65 ter 1516, please.

11 Q. Do you see the image in front of you, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And with the assistance of Madam Usher, I'd ask you, given this

14 level of magnification, can you identify where that white house that you

15 testified about is located?

16 A. I think I can.

17 Q. And would you please circle it and write "white house" next to

18 it, please.

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. And place your initials next to that as well.

21 A. [Marks].

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Madam Registrar, we need to save it.

23 MR. THAYER: And if we may be shown 65 ter 1535, please.

24 Q. Do you see an image on your screen, Major?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2303

1 Q. And do you recognise what's depicted in the -- more or less the

2 centre of the image?

3 A. This is the house I know as the white house.

4 Q. And is there anything that's different about the surroundings in

5 this photograph than when you were there, Major?

6 A. The biggest difference is that the vegetation was more thick and

7 that the bushes around the -- basically the front lawn of the house were so

8 thick that you couldn't -- or barely could see the house from the roadside

9 on. So there was much more vegetation around the house and the front lawn.

10 Q. After the -- the UNMO had told you about this problem -- and by

11 the way, do you remember the name of the UNMO?

12 A. Yes, I do, and that's Kingori.

13 Q. And did you go over to the white house after he told you about

14 the problem?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And what did you see there, if anything?

17 A. I saw a lot of men crammed as the UNMO Kingori had told me,

18 crammed inside the house, and a few of them sitting just in front of the

19 house. The whole house was basically packed with men, and in front of the

20 house the whole front lawn, which is empty now on the screen, but was then

21 packed with a mixture of personal belongings, photographs, and also, as I

22 saw then, passports from the men that were sitting inside the house.

23 Q. How did the men appear to you that you saw?

24 A. The men looked to me very scared and frightened, weakened, and

25 very quiet, looking at -- looking -- also looking at me with -- with open

Page 2304

1 eyes but very -- they appeared to me very scared and weakened.

2 Q. Did you do anything with any of these documents or passports that

3 you described, sir?

4 A. I started assembling the passports because I thought maybe a few

5 of the men had lost them, and I had both my pockets filled with -- with

6 those passports. And I don't know why, but later on I put those passports

7 out of my pockets and put them there again. But seeing those passports

8 raised a question to me, which I also posed to Mane, that basically

9 together with Miki had followed me from the first location, the water truck

10 to the white house. And I posed a question to him, that if the explanation

11 he had given me about the war criminals was correct, that the men would

12 need their passports to prove their identity, to show that they were in

13 fact not on the list of war criminals or differently.

14 Q. And what, if anything, did Captain Mane say to you in response to

15 that?

16 A. Basically he -- he grinned at me and he told me that the men

17 didn't need the passports anymore, which at that point made clear to me

18 that there was a very dark future ahead for the men in the house - and in

19 fact for the men that had been singled out the day before. At that stage,

20 I thought about the images I had seen before -- before going on mission,

21 images from 1991, 1991/1992 of the camps that were in Bosnia during the

22 war. So I had visions of that in my mind, and I wanted to make sure that

23 we would accompany the men that were being transported, the buses were

24 already there, from the white house out of the area.

25 Q. So what steps did you take in that regard, sir?

Page 2305

1 A. I tried to get on the bus myself, but was forced at gunpoint --

2 and by Mane telling me not to do that because it was not going to happen

3 very -- he was very deliberate -- very clear in that I was not going on the

4 bus and that to him it was not worth it. So literally at gunpoint I had to

5 stop my actions to get on the bus myself. And I radioed in to the

6 battalion operations room, our battalion operations room, to make sure that

7 we would accompany the buses with the men. And the response I got was that

8 they would do everything in their power to get those buses escorted. Later

9 on they -- I heard that they tried it, but somewhere it went wrong.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: I really don't want to interrupt my colleague,

12 but I was just trying to make sure that everything that the witness said is

13 properly recorded in the transcript. Because I don't believe that he said

14 that actually Mane was gunpointing at him, but here we have on page 72,

15 line 20: "I tried to get on the bus myself, but was forced at gunpoint and

16 by Mane..." So I don't believe that he actually said that Mane pointed a

17 gun on him.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you are correct. I think that -- he first

19 stated that he was forced at gunpoint to get down or not to get -- and then

20 Mane told him -- if you could actually confirm this to us, Major. I heard

21 you say so, so it's just more for the record.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, you are right. I was forced at

23 gunpoint, but not by Mane.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Lazarevic, for pointing that out

25 to us.

Page 2306

1 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

2 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Did Mane exercise any physical control over you at that time,

4 Major?

5 A. Basically he pulled me from the position next to the bus where I

6 was trying to enter the bus, and he pulled me from that location.

7 Q. Now, sir, I want to turn your attention to a slightly different

8 topic. At some point did you and Lieutenant Koster receive some

9 information that caused him to go investigate?

10 A. Yes. At the morning of the 13th when I had taken over from him,

11 we had some information by MSF, brought to us by MSF, that there were some

12 bodies behind houses in the area, next to the area we were in. And she

13 asked if we could take a look if that was true or not because she had

14 received that information. And basically because I had taken over from

15 Lieutenant Koster, we agreed upon that he would go to there to basically

16 inspect if the information MSF had was true or false.

17 Q. And at some point later, did you see Lieutenant Koster again?

18 A. Later on I saw Lieutenant Koster again, and he was very agitated

19 and said to me that he couldn't explain everything but that he needed to

20 get back to the compound of DutchBat and that he was afraid that they - the

21 Serb soldiers he meant - were searching for him. And because I already

22 knew Lieutenant Koster for a few years before that, I saw from his facial

23 expression that he was -- he was very serious and that there was something

24 very serious going on for him to react like that. And later I had heard

25 that he had found some bodies behind a house.

Page 2307

1 Q. Do you recall approximately what time on 13 July the

2 transportations ended?

3 A. Basically, as I think back now, it must have been around --

4 somewhere around 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon, so the late afternoon of

5 the 13th.


7 Q. And can you describe for the Trial Chamber what the Potocari

8 compound and the factory areas looked like after the transportations were

9 completed on that day.

10 A. The factory areas were totally empty, and a lot of personal items

11 were abandoned at that location. Basically it was a mess with all sorts of

12 personal items going from photographs to blankets to pieces of personal

13 interest that people wanted to take with them. And basically, those

14 factory areas were totally -- totally desolate. And the Potocari compound

15 was also empty, but there were still a few refugees there which were

16 wounded with the Red Cross.

17 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to show you a video film clip. It is from 65

18 ter 2047. And -- I'm sorry P02047. And the start time, I believe, is 1

19 minute -- I'm sorry, 1 hour, 58 minutes, and 5 seconds.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 [Videotape played]


23 Q. Sir, do you have an image in front of you on your screen?

24 A. Yes, I have.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and we are at 1 hour, 58 minutes, point 11,

Page 2308

1 point 4 second.


3 Q. Sir, do you see an individual at the far right hand of the screen

4 in a blue vest and blue helmet?

5 A. That's the UNMO I know as Kingori.

6 MR. THAYER: Okay. Please continue.

7 [Videotape played].


9 Q. Sir, do you recognise the individual at the far right of the

10 screen --

11 And for the record we are at 1 hour, 58 minutes, 43.5 seconds.

12 A. I recognise him as being Lieutenant Koster.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Why would it be the far right?

14 MR. THAYER: Sorry, the far left. It's been a long day, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not the only one.

17 [Videotape played]


19 Q. And again, on the far right of the screen at 1 hour, 58 minutes,

20 51.5 seconds, again do you recognise the individual in the sunglasses?

21 A. That's the person I know as Stalin.

22 Q. Thank you, Major. I think we'll go to another clip or further

23 along in the video to 2 hours, 25 minutes, and 40 seconds.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. THAYER: Just pause there.

Page 2309

1 Q. Sir, 2 hours, 26 minutes, 13 seconds point 1, this -- I believe

2 you've seen a similar image before, but who is the individual in the

3 centre?

4 A. That's the person I know as Miki.

5 Q. And on the left?

6 A. That's the person I know as Mane.

7 Q. And what is being discussed at this point, do you recall?

8 A. No, I don't recall what -- what the discussion was about.

9 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's continue then, please.

10 [Videotape played]


12 Q. And for the record at 2 hours, 27 minutes, 10.9 seconds, can you

13 describe what is going on here at this point in the video?

14 A. Here my soldiers explained to me that the Serb forces, by using

15 the tractor that's in front of the water truck, the water truck is the

16 white truck with "UN" on the side, that they want to tow away the water

17 truck. And MSF had explained to me that they still needed the water truck

18 for the injured and sick people that were still on a location just to the

19 right. We gathered them there to help them before transporting them to the

20 compound or to another place.

21 [Videotape played].

22 MR. THAYER: Could we just pause it there. Just a little ways

23 back.

24 Q. Sir, the individual who is depicted at the left-most part of the

25 screen at 2 hours, 28 minutes, 24.2 seconds in the camouflage shirt, do you

Page 2310

1 recognise who that is?

2 A. No, I don't recognise him.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Sir, can you describe what that conversation with UNMO Kingori

6 was about?

7 A. At that stage Kingori explained to me, like you see in the film,

8 that we had to shift our attention to the men in the white house, which

9 basically at that point was possible for us because the big group of

10 refugees had already left. And after one of my soldiers, who was an expert

11 in transportation, made sure that the brakes were put on the water truck in

12 such a way that it was not able for the Serb tractor to take the water

13 truck away. And MSF had told me that they already had sped up the process

14 to take away the wounded and sick from that location back to the compound.

15 There was room for us to shift our attention to the men being cramped

16 together in the white house.

17 Q. And the conversation that we just saw at the very end of the clip

18 with UNMO Kingori, was it after that that you then went to investigate the

19 white house?

20 A. Yes. Directly after that I went with Kingori and also Miki and

21 Mane trailing me towards the white house.

22 Q. Sir, during those two days of separations and transportations,

23 was there any separation in particular that stays out or stands out in your

24 mind more than others?

25 A. There are still all the separations and the whole process was

Page 2311

1 terrible, and still I think back at those situations. And of course, when

2 you have a family that consists of more than five, six people and you are

3 standing in the middle of the process in which the man is being separated

4 from his wife and family and you literally -- they literally take you by

5 the arm to -- to help -- ask if you can help or if you can aid in any way,

6 then this is something that burns into your soul, especially when, in that

7 specific incident, there is the classic boarder case in which you have a

8 man that is old but not that old. He could be -- could have been a soldier

9 for the Muslim forces, and especially because in that specific incident I

10 decided not to protest with Mane. So the separation happened and the man

11 was separated from his family. And that together with other decisions I

12 had to take, in the cases where you don't protest, that is something that

13 will stick with me the rest of my life.

14 MR. THAYER: Major, I have no further questions. Thank you.

15 Your Honour, I see that it's approaching 7.00.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Major, we are going to stop here for the day.

17 We'll continue tomorrow in the afternoon, starting with the first cross-

18 examination. I -- have you changed the roster? You're sticking to the

19 same -- all right. Okay. So it will be the Defence -- Defence for Mr.

20 Popovic that will go first. We'll start at 2.15 tomorrow, and we hopefully

21 will try to finish on Friday. Let's -- that's the effort that we will be

22 collectively making. Thank you. Have a nice evening. See you tomorrow.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day of

25 September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.