Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2388

1 Friday, 29 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We were out discussing, anticipating some of

7 the pre-announced problems. So Madam Registrar, could you kindly call the

8 case, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

10 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam and good morning to you.

12 I see the accused are all here. Defence teams are -- the only

13 conspicuous absence is of Stephane Bourgon. Prosecution I see Mr. Thayer

14 on his own. Am I right? Because I can't see behind.

15 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, everybody. Are there any

17 preliminaries? Or shall we finish with the witness first? I understand

18 there were some problems with the transcript which have been solved?

19 Let's start with the witness.


21 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Haynes has chosen to stand right behind the

22 column.

23 MR. HAYNES: I did that for the benefit of the witness, not

24 appreciating it would make me blind to you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right. Go ahead, Mr. Haynes, I will be

Page 2389

1 following you from the monitor.

2 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Haynes, by the way, represents

4 Mr. Pandurevic, here and he will be cross-examining you now. Thank you.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Van Duijn. It's some little while since you've

7 been asked questions in English and if I may say so, your English is

8 excellent. So we have to observe the courtesy of making a break between

9 question and answer so that our discourse can be interpreted for those who

10 don't speak English. Okay?

11 A. Fine by me.

12 Q. In 1995, you were 24 years of age, that's correct, isn't it?

13 A. I turned 25 in May, that's correct.

14 Q. Yes. And you were a platoon commander in Srebrenica and in your

15 command were 34 men?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. I call them men but they were very young men, weren't they? Their

18 average age, I think, was 19.

19 A. More or less, yes.

20 Q. I imagine many of them had not been on any sort of mission before

21 or even left Holland.

22 A. That's correct, yes.

23 Q. Now, before you went on your tour of duty, did you together with

24 your platoon and other soldiers attend a training course?

25 A. Next to the training course for the air mobile unit that we

Page 2390

1 were -- that we were in, we also had a special training course for the

2 mission, yes.

3 Q. Thank you. And this special training course for the mission, was

4 that operated by the United Nations rather than the Royal Dutch army?

5 A. No. That was operated by the Royal Dutch army.

6 Q. Thank you. And it being a training course that was specific to

7 the mission, were you introduced as it were to the history of the creation

8 of the enclave?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And so I imagine you received training on the special -- on the

11 Security Council's special resolution and the cease-fire agreement?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. Now, was it part of your training that your mission in Srebrenica

14 was to seek to uphold to the letter the Security Council's resolution and

15 the cease-fire agreement?

16 A. Yes. Within the guidelines that we were given in the rules of

17 engagement, yes.

18 Q. And I don't want to go through them but under brief headings, that

19 there should be a cease-fire, that the area should be demarcated, that the

20 area should be demilitarised, that paramilitary and military units should

21 leave the area. That was your mission as you understood it, was it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you arrived in Srebrenica, did it strike you that the

24 objectives of your mission were achievable?

25 A. It was clear to us that it was a very, very difficult mission,

Page 2391

1 because the cease-fire as was stated was more in word than in actual fact.

2 Q. So do I understand the position to be this, that you pretty

3 quickly abandoned the objectives of upholding the Security Council's

4 resolution and the cease-fire agreement?

5 A. No. That was not the case but we tried to do the best we could

6 with the means we got at that time.

7 Q. Right. And I pick this phrase carefully. Ultimately, did you

8 find yourself simply monitoring the way each side behaved?

9 A. That resembles more or less the way things had gone, yes.

10 Q. And you did little more than that?

11 A. We tried what we could.

12 Q. Now, I'd like to move on now, please, to your relations with the

13 population and the military membership of the enclave. It was the people

14 within the enclave that you had the most regular contact with, wasn't it?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. You had regular meetings with people outside the enclave, the

17 Serbian military representatives, but you were in daily contact with the

18 population of the enclave and their military personnel?

19 A. Not into daily contact with the military personnel within the

20 enclave but, yes, in daily contact with the population, yes.

21 Q. Would it be fair to say that you developed friendships with the

22 population within the enclave?

23 A. Myself, I myself, not personally, no. But there were some

24 friendships, as you could call it, like that, between our personnel and

25 the local population, yes.

Page 2392

1 Q. Right. And did you yourself develop closer relationships with, as

2 it were, Muslim military personnel than you did with their Serbian

3 counterparts?

4 A. I had more frequent meetings with the Muslim military personnel,

5 yes.

6 Q. Now I want to ask you about something in particular about

7 relations with the local population. Did it become apparent to you that

8 the personal security of yourself and your soldiers was compromised by the

9 local population and their knowledge of you personally?

10 A. I don't really understand what you mean with my personal security.

11 Q. I understand why you don't understand. It was a thoroughly bad

12 question. I'll start again. Did it become apparent to you that people in

13 the enclave were able to find out not only who you were but where you

14 lived?

15 A. Yes, that's correct, yeah.

16 Q. You yourself were such a person who had experience of this but you

17 weren't alone, were you?

18 A. No. I heard that in other cases also --

19 Q. Sorry to be explicit about this within a very few weeks of

20 arriving in Srebrenica, your girlfriend back in Holland received contact

21 from the brother of a local Muslim commander?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And I imagine that was a very unsettling experience for her.

24 A. Yes, for us all because I didn't know how my address came with

25 that brother of that Muslim commander or with the Muslim commander

Page 2393

1 himself.

2 Q. And was there a suspicion that internal mail was being interfered

3 with by the local population?

4 A. Yeah, there were more suspicions of our information or personal

5 information was also known to local Muslim military commanders.

6 Q. And I think also there was a case of the main switch board at

7 Bravo Company being connected to by a member of the local population?

8 A. Yeah. That's what I heard about, yes.

9 Q. You've been asked one or two questions about this already but I'd

10 like to develop the theme. It became apparent to you during the course of

11 your time there that there were other agencies at work in and around the

12 enclave, didn't it? By which I mean military agencies.

13 A. Yes, that's true.

14 Q. You were asked yesterday about the presence of the British SAS in

15 the enclave. They were not part of your mission, were they?

16 A. I believe they had their own mission but they were put with us on

17 our compound.

18 Q. And you didn't know whether their objectives were consistent with

19 yours or wholly inconsistent with yours?

20 A. I have no information about that.

21 Q. I think you also became aware that there were American military

22 personnel operating in the area of the enclave?

23 A. I don't have any information about that as well. The only thing

24 that we noticed, that we found some American rations when we did our

25 patrols.

Page 2394

1 Q. Yes. But just to complete the picture, in your contact with

2 Serbian military representatives they voiced their concerns to you, didn't

3 they, that there were Americans operating in the area?

4 A. I don't recall that being so clear, clearly stated to me.

5 Q. I'll leave it there then. One other thing on that particular

6 point, did you feel from time to time that you were not being given access

7 to assistance that you thought was necessary?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And I'll give one particular example. You were concerned, weren't

12 you, about the question of incoming helicopter flights and the supply of

13 arms?

14 A. We were concerned about movements in the air at that time, and we

15 requested AWACS support which we didn't get.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Now, I want to move on to something else

17 you've been asked about briefly and again develop this a little more,

18 which is the question of trade with the local population. Was that

19 something that was taking place before you arrived in Srebrenica or was it

20 initiative that developed while you were there?

21 A. No. That was already ongoing.

22 Q. I may have misread the impression you gave but I got the

23 impression it's something that you were in favour of.

24 A. At that time, I saw no harm in it, no.

25 Q. No. You can speak only for your own two observation posts but do

Page 2395

1 I understand the position that trade with the local population was taking

2 place at every observation post?

3 A. I think you could assume that, yes.

4 Q. And was it something that was known to the -- your superior

5 officers, to central command in DutchBat?

6 A. Yes. I think they know -- they knew about it, yes.

7 Q. Was any written guidance given to troops as to the parameters of

8 trade with the local population?

9 A. Not that I know of, no.

10 Q. Just as an example, it was permissible for members of the

11 battalion to trade with men or women?

12 A. When it came to goods and I'm not referring to weapons or

13 ammunition or some sort, but if you speak about coffee or bread or

14 possibly doing the laundry, that was permitted, yes.

15 Q. Well, not sure you answered the question but I'll ask the next one

16 any way, there was no guidance given as to whether you could trade with

17 only civilians or whether you could trade with the military personnel

18 within the enclave?

19 A. No. That's correct.

20 Q. And you'd anticipated what I'm next going to ask you, which is

21 really what was on offer from the local population? It wasn't just

22 limited to bread and water which you told us about the other day, was it?

23 It was a far wider range of commodities than that.

24 A. There was a little bit more than bread and water but not a very

25 big range of goods.

Page 2396

1 Q. But it wasn't just goods. Personal services were on offer as

2 well, weren't they?

3 A. I don't know what you mean, sir.

4 Q. Well, what was the most unusual thing that was ever offered at an

5 operation post?

6 A. I don't -- can't think -- I cannot think of anything that was

7 very unusual because it was a usual trade that was going on. But maybe

8 you have other information that I don't have.

9 Q. Well, I was looking at the full text of your debriefing, in which

10 I think you suggested that women were offered at observation posts. Is

11 that correct?

12 A. I've heard about that, yes.

13 Q. Not at your observation post?

14 A. I don't recall. I don't have a recollection that it also happened

15 at my observation post, no.

16 Q. So far as you're aware was any investigation carried out into

17 that, any guidelines given to soldiers as to how they should respond to

18 such offers?

19 A. Of course it was clear that if you were there to help the local

20 population, that you don't go abusing them or using them in any way. So

21 that was clear and I remember that also during briefings, that was again

22 stated that this was not acceptable.

23 Q. But that's the extent of your knowledge about it, that you heard

24 it happened at other observation posts and people were advised about it?

25 A. Yes, as I recall now, yes.

Page 2397

1 Q. Can I just deal briefly with the question of arms? You told us

2 that your weaponry degraded, but that wasn't the only problem with

3 weaponry, was it? Weaponry also went missing.

4 A. As far as I can recall, there was only a machine that was used by

5 the mortar group to calculate coordinates that was missing, and you can

6 say that that was part of the weaponry. It's not a weapon itself but used

7 in the mortar groups.

8 Q. Can I remind you of something else you said in your debriefing

9 session? Didn't you also tell them that you lost a control unit for a

10 missile launcher?

11 A. Now, this is -- I think you -- there must be something with the

12 translation because I think that we speak about the same thing, but this

13 is a unit that you use to calculate coordinates for mortars and not for

14 missiles.

15 Q. Right. Thank you very much. Just one last thing about, as it

16 were, life in the enclave and that's about the observation posts

17 themselves. Prior to them being abandoned did anybody observation post,

18 to your knowledge, become inoperative?

19 A. If you mean that it was not possible for personnel to stay at that

20 location, that's what I heard from the OPs in the south.

21 Q. Right. That wasn't really what I meant. What I meant was, was it

22 no longer possible to keep it running because of a shortage of fuel or

23 food or water or electrical supply?

24 A. No. I have no knowledge about that, no.

25 Q. Because just so we get a complete picture of the OPs, each one did

Page 2398

1 have an electrical supply, powered by a generator run by fuel, didn't it?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Right. Now, I want to move on, please, to the 10th and the 11th

4 of July of 1995. You've told us that you were ordinarily posted in the

5 north east sector and I think in answer to a question from Mr. Zivanovic

6 earlier on, you revealed that your knowledge of the south of the enclave

7 was limited.

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. But perhaps you can help assist with this. One of the features of

10 the south of the enclave which you will have observed is that it's much

11 more hilly than the north of the enclave, isn't it?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. The road out of Srebrenica to the south goes steeply uphill and

14 ahead of you lie quite a number of hills?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Thank you. Before you went to the south of the city on the

17 morning of the 10th of July, had you attended any meeting about what your

18 role should be that morning?

19 A. Yes. I was briefed by Captain Groen.

20 Q. And was this a meeting attended only by members of the battalion

21 or were members of the Muslim forces present too?

22 A. No. That was a meeting in the compound of Bravo Company. The

23 headquarters of Captain Groen. And there was only a meeting between him,

24 me and other platoon commanders.

25 Q. When you took up your first blocking position, it would be right,

Page 2399

1 wouldn't it, that the Muslim positions were very, very proximate to you?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Literally a few yards away or a few metres away? Sorry.

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Indeed, they remained there so that they could train an RPG on

6 your unit to make you stay?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Now, your unit consisted of one APC, yourself and five other men?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And might sound a foolish question but an APC is about the size of

11 a delivery van, really, isn't it?

12 A. It's a little bit bigger than that.

13 Q. But it's a single vehicle?

14 A. Yeah. It's a single --

15 Q. And during the course of the morning of the 10th of July, did your

16 men remain within the vehicle or did they deploy themselves outside?

17 A. At first I deployed them also outside, but because of the constant

18 shelling, I chose to get them into the APC because of the shrapnel threat.

19 Q. Right. Now, I want to explore with you just briefly, as it were,

20 the rules of your engagement. Would I be right to assert that you were

21 only permitted to fire on other forces when you were fired on directly?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. You were not permitted to fire on other forces as it were in

24 defence of the civilian population?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 2400

1 Q. And you certainly weren't allowed to fire on other forces in

2 defence of Muslim forces?

3 A. There was no distinction between civilian population and Muslim

4 forces.

5 Q. That's very helpful. Now, as has been underlined previously,

6 you've given a number of statements, debriefings and accounts and evidence

7 on this topic, and one of the things that you've never mentioned is the

8 question of incoming small arms fire. Can we take it that at no stage

9 prior to the appearance of Serbian forces later that morning were you the

10 recipient of incoming small-arms fire?

11 A. Not during the stage of the blocking position, no.

12 Q. Thank you very much. The shells that were -- that you've referred

13 to and that were landing, they were all large-bore shells, weren't they?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. Picking up something you said previously, they were all the sort

16 of shells that were being fired from a distance of 10 to 15 kilometres

17 away?

18 A. That was my impression, yes.

19 Q. Yes. And in terms of the number of shells that landed near your

20 position, there were two early in the morning and a few later on?

21 A. There must have been more than that.

22 Q. Well, it may well be I have to take you something you said

23 previously but I want to you think about that. Two shells early in the

24 morning and a few later on.

25 A. I think that refers to the shells that were falling or hitting

Page 2401

1 very close to my APC.

2 Q. I'm going to invite you to consider one other statement. You

3 never believed, did you, that the shells that landed near you were aimed

4 at you?

5 A. I stated before that it is difficult when you shoot a shell from

6 that distance on, it is very hard to aim directly at one point, but that

7 it was aimed at our general location. That was clear because otherwise

8 they wouldn't have fallen there. But I cannot have the idea that it was

9 aimed directly at my APC or at other APCs of the UN.

10 Q. Thank you again. That's very, very helpful.

11 So whilst you were sitting there, you didn't believe that you had

12 been fired upon directly either by small weaponry or by artillery?

13 A. Of course, if you are being shelled by artillery, it doesn't

14 matter if they aim directly at you. If the shells fall within 50 metres

15 or yards, as you say, of your APC, it's time to get out of there.

16 Q. That again is very helpful. Because there came a point, didn't

17 there, when you could see Bosnian Serb infantry coming over a hill ahead

18 of you?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And as you say, there comes a moment when it's time to get out of

21 there. That is not what you did, though, is it?

22 A. I waited until I got the assignment to withdraw, and I waited

23 until that was the time.

24 Q. Well, that's not quite what you did. When you saw the Bosnian

25 Serb infantry come over the hill ahead of you, you instructed your gunner

Page 2402

1 to fire at them?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. You gave him that order. Who gave you that order?

4 A. Being into constant contact through the radio, we had the

5 assignment that if the Serb forces would stay advancing, we would first

6 shoot over head, if we could see them, and then shoot directly at them.

7 Q. I'm sure you're -- that's very helpful but who was it who told you

8 to fire?

9 A. I think that was Captain Groen, over the radio.

10 Q. And I think it's the position, isn't it, that your gunner

11 continued to fire at Serbian troops until you could see them no more?

12 A. It was difficult for me to see the Serbian troops themselves later

13 on but he assured me that he couldn't see them any more.

14 Q. Right. Was that because they had retreated or because he had

15 killed them?

16 A. I wouldn't know. We didn't check.

17 Q. Didn't you ask him?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, at the same time that you were firing at Serbian troops, the

20 Muslim forces around you were also firing, weren't they?

21 A. I believe at that stage they were not in the vicinity of my APC

22 firing south. I think at that stage, there was only one or two Muslim

23 fighters with an RPG aiming at our APC.

24 Q. Right. I'm going to quote something that you said in the

25 Blagojevic case and see if you can help me with it and then I have to put

Page 2403

1 something specifically to you. It's at page 1052 and it's lines 3 to 8.

2 You were asked, where did you see the Muslim soldiers? And you

3 said, "Near to my location." And you were asked, "Okay. What were they

4 doing?" And you said, "They were shooting in the direction of the south.

5 It wasn't clear to me at what they were shooting or they were shooting or

6 they were moving forwards towards the south and back again -- or back

7 again."

8 Now, that is at a point during the course of the morning of the

9 10th of July you're describing. Was there a point in the course of the

10 morning of the 10th of July when the Muslim forces moved forwards towards

11 the south?

12 A. There was no specific action towards the south of them. As I

13 described before, there were sometimes moving towards the south and then

14 withdrawing again and we could see the same fighters going in the

15 direction of the south and coming back again.

16 Q. Right. In military terms, did it appear to you that something of

17 a counteroffensive went on during the course of the morning?

18 A. No, not a -- not a counteroffensive as I would describe it, no.

19 Q. But fighters moving forward, forwards towards where the fire was

20 coming from and then coming back again?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I just want to complete the picture of, as it were, you giving the

23 order to fire. Did you tell us that you were there alone in your APC and

24 there were two or three Muslim fighters training an RPG on you at that

25 time; other than that, there were no other forces?

Page 2404

1 A. I believe that was the case. I was of course not alone in my APC

2 but together with my personnel.

3 Q. I'm going to leave that now and move on for just a few minutes to

4 Potocari and I've not got very many questions to ask you about that

5 because you've been asked a lot of them.

6 The man Captain Mane, can we take it that all the information you

7 had about him you got from him?

8 A. Yes, through his interpreter, Miki, of course.

9 Q. And you didn't seek to check anything that he told you about

10 himself?

11 A. Frankly, there was no time or reason to do that.

12 Q. And over the course of two days, he was pretty central to what was

13 going on at Potocari?

14 A. Yes, he was the one in charge at that location, yes.

15 Q. And he dealt with not just you but a number of refugees as well?

16 He spoke to them.

17 A. I don't have a recollection of that, no.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. Of him directly speaking to refugees.

20 Q. Last few questions: In answer to a question from Madam Fauveau

21 yesterday, it might not have been Madam Fauveau. I'm sorry, it was at

22 page 40, lines 9 to 11, you were asked about, as it were, the number of

23 men that were present amongst the group at Potocari and you said, "When

24 you look at the total number of men that I saw, and the men that I saw

25 singled out, that must resemble more than 300 or 350 men."

Page 2405

1 The question I ask you to follow on from that is, when you say

2 that you saw more than 300, 350 men singled out, that is the number that

3 you saw actually taken, not the number you saw taken away before your

4 intervention?

5 A. No. That is the total estimation of the number of men being

6 singled out during the day.

7 Q. Well, I'm interested about that because Madam Fauveau did

8 establish with you yesterday that the number you saw in the house on the

9 first day was between I think you said 15 and 50. Yes?

10 A. Yes. I remember that, yes.

11 Q. And the number you saw in the "White House" on the second day was

12 between 50 and 100, wasn't it?

13 A. Yes. I remember that, yes.

14 Q. So in effect the number of men you saw placed in those two houses

15 over the course of two days was a maximum of 150?

16 A. The men I saw at that stage resemble more or less the figure of

17 150 but when I look at the two days, the whole days, thinking and making

18 an estimation of the men that were singled out, it resembles a higher

19 number but I was not there at the "White House" the second day the whole

20 time and I don't know if there were earlier transports before my arrival

21 there.

22 Q. Yes. I would just like to finish this with a general question.

23 In the years following your service in Srebrenica, you came under some

24 criticism, didn't you, from some of your colleagues for what you did

25 there?

Page 2406

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And it was your belief that your role in the evacuation of the

3 refugees had hampered your career in the following years?

4 A. This was not my belief. At first it was my belief but also in the

5 parliamentary inquiry it became clear in the early years after the fall of

6 the enclave that was indeed the case.

7 Q. But just to be clear, you're sure you did the right thing there,

8 you did what people wanted you to do, and it was the only choice and the

9 best one in their interests?

10 A. I'm sure I did the right thing.

11 Q. Assisting with the evacuation?

12 A. Assisting the refugees, yes.

13 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Haynes. Is there re-examination,

15 Mr. Thayer?

16 MR. THAYER: Yes, there is. Thank you, Mr. President. Good

17 morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Good morning to you.

19 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

20 Q. Good morning, Major.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Yesterday you answered a question posed by my learned colleague

23 Ms. Fauveau that you were indeed able to take leave during your stay in

24 Bosnia. I'm afraid I don't have the cite to the transcript because we

25 didn't have that available because of the glitch this morning. But I

Page 2407

1 believe you did answer that you were indeed able to take leave and to

2 return to the enclave. Do you recall that, sir?

3 A. Yes, I recall that.

4 Q. Do you recall when you were permitted to take that leave and

5 re-enter?

6 A. That was in the early stages of the mission. I believe it was in

7 the end of February, March.

8 Q. Now, at some point, was there a change in the ability of DutchBat

9 personnel to take leave and subsequently to reenter the enclave, Major?

10 A. Yes. That was the fact, and even that transport had been

11 postponed and it was not clear if it would go through but from March on,

12 there were a lot of difficulties getting people that went on leave back

13 into the enclave, which led to considerable amount of personnel of

14 DutchBat staying in the Netherlands and they were not able to come back to

15 Srebrenica.

16 Q. Now, do you recall also being asked yesterday by Madam Fauveau

17 about your October 25th, 1995 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

18 regarding the number of men whom you observed in front of the house that

19 you described with no facade, and that was just referred to again by my

20 learned colleague, Mr. Haynes in his examination. Do you remember those

21 questions, sir?

22 A. Yes, I remember them.

23 Q. Now, you've also been referred by various of my colleagues to your

24 Dutch army debriefing statement at Assen that was taken on the 12th and

25 13th of 1995, September 1995, about a month and a half before you gave

Page 2408

1 your statement to the OTP. Do you remember being asked various questions

2 about that Assen debriefing, sir?

3 A. Yes, I remember that.

4 Q. Now, do you recall whether during that Assen debriefing discussing

5 how many men you recalled seeing in front of the house with no facade on

6 12 July?

7 A. Yes. I remember that.

8 Q. And do you recall as you sit here today what your answer was or

9 what the number was that you stated to the debriefers in Assen about how

10 many men you recalled seeing in front of the house with no facade?

11 A. I don't recall the exact number which I stated there.

12 Q. Would seeing a copy of that report refresh your recollection, sir,

13 about what you said at that time?

14 A. Yes, of course.

15 MR. THAYER: If I may, Your Honour, it's been previously marked as

16 Defence Exhibit 7 D0055, and if I -- with the assistance of Madam Usher,

17 because I don't think it's been placed into the e-court system yet, show

18 the witness page 14 of the English and it's page 9 of the B/C/S

19 translation and I would just --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to have it on the ELMO, please.

21 MR. THAYER: If we could place it on the ELMO.

22 Q. And just call your attention to the first, the top highlighted

23 section in orange and just ask you to read that and I'd ask you if that

24 refreshes your recollection about what you stated to the debriefers in

25 Assen?

Page 2409

1 A. I will read the first part and I quote, "the whole day of the --

2 the whole of the first day, the men remained in the house open facade,

3 without windows. He thought 50 men in total."

4 Q. And does that jog your memory, sir, as to whether it was 50 or 15

5 to 50?

6 A. I remember stating that and I recognise this as a part of my

7 statement there.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

9 Do you also recall being asked some questions by my learned

10 colleague Mr. Lazarevic yesterday and that would be from page 41 line 10

11 through page 42 line 23, also about your October 25th 1995 OTP statement,

12 about seeing passports and other personal property near the bus station

13 versus near the "White House"? Do you recall that line of questioning,

14 sir?

15 A. Yes. I recall that.

16 Q. And do you recall whether in that same Assen debriefing that we

17 just discussed, discussing seeing passports in front of the "White House"

18 at that time? Do you recall whether or not you did that, sir?

19 A. I know that I stated there that I saw passports in front of

20 the "White House."

21 Q. Now, do you recall being asked also by Mr. Lazarevic at page 51,

22 line 15 through page 53 line 24, about your testimony before the Dutch

23 government where he read the following testimony and I'll just read it

24 again rather than referring to the transcript pages.

25 The question was: "You tackled the Serbian commander about this

Page 2410

1 matter. What was his reaction?" The answer: "I asked him what he was

2 going to do with the Muslim men. He gave me the same story that they

3 intended interrogating them to find out whether there were any war

4 criminals amongst them. Then I put it to him that if there are no

5 passports men could give false names and that the story about checking the

6 identities was no longer valid. He just laughed as if to say what are you

7 getting so excited about, they don't need their passports any more. Other

8 than that, he didn't give me any further explanation."

9 Now, do you remember that line of questioning from yesterday, sir?

10 A. Yes, I remember that.

11 Q. Do you recall as you sit here the questions and answers you gave

12 when you were asked about this same conversation during your testimony in

13 2000 in the Krstic case?

14 A. I don't recall the exact phrasing, no.

15 Q. Well, I'd like to read you the relevant questions and your

16 answers from the Krstic testimony, if I may just read it in rather than

17 placing it on the ELMO, Mr. President. This is from the Krstic trial

18 transcript page 1768, line 22. Question: "Did you see anything else at

19 the 'White House' apart from these men that were packed inside and outside

20 the 'White House'?"

21 Answer: "When I came up to the 'White House,' and as you can see

22 in front of the 'White House' there is a large lawn, it was covered

23 totally with personal belongings, with pictures, holiday snapshots as well

24 as passports and others identity papers."

25 Question: "Now, after you'd seen this did you speak to anybody

Page 2411

1 about what you'd seen at the 'White House'?"

2 Answer: "I spoke to Mane again because the first day of the

3 deportations, when I noticed that the men were singled out, I asked him

4 why, and he gave me the explanation of them wanting to distinguish who was

5 a war criminal and who was not. So I asked him again because I saw all

6 the passports and identity papers why they couldn't take them with them,

7 because that was in front of the house and not on the men itself. He

8 said, well, they don't need the stuff that's there. They don't need it

9 any more. Then I asked him how he could explain the fact that if they

10 wanted to know who was a war criminal and who was not, they could do that

11 without identity papers because if they would give a false name, it

12 wouldn't be on the list of war criminals and the person would go free and

13 join the rest of the convoy to Tuzla. Then he more or less laughed at me

14 and said, 'Well, don't make such a fuss out of it. They just don't need

15 their passports any more.'"

16 Do you recall giving that testimony, sir, in Krstic in 2000?

17 A. Yes, I remember that, sir.

18 Q. Thank you, Major. I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Thayer.

20 I understand there may be some questions from the Bench.

21 Judge Kwon.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE KWON: I have a brief question. Can the witness be shown

24 map 6 or ERN number 05050371.

25 Major Van Duijn, not being a military man myself, I'm more

Page 2412

1 familiar with the simple maps than with a detailed military maps. Can you

2 see the map?

3 A. Yes, I can see it, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE KWON: Your base was at UN base in Potocari or Charlie, not

5 the Bravo Company in Srebrenica?

6 A. No, that's correct, sir. My base was the most northerly base near

7 Potocari.

8 JUDGE KWON: But I heard that you had a briefing at Bravo

9 Company, this morning, didn't you?

10 A. In the morning, I went over to the Bravo Company to take the

11 blocking positions. I went from the UN base in Potocari to the UN base

12 from Bravo Company, and that's where I was briefed by Captain Groen and

13 there he gave me the orders about the -- about the blocking positions.

14 JUDGE KWON: Could you mark the -- your blocking position in this

15 map?

16 A. My blocking position was Bravo 3 and was just located in the

17 outskirts, the southern outskirts of the town. This is the wrong

18 location. The pen doesn't work quite correctly, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you want to cancel that --

20 A. Yes, because it was not on the good location.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: How can he cancel it? Madam Registrar? Okay.

22 That's it. All done. So.

23 A. I'll try it again, Your Honour.


25 A. It's too southern but --

Page 2413

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do it this way. Can we zoom?

2 JUDGE KWON: We can zoom.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can zoom and then we could zoom into the

4 bottom half of the map. Yes. Stop there. Now, perhaps he can -- does it

5 help you better now?

6 A. Yes. It's just that the pen is not corresponding to the place

7 where I put it. This is more correct.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

9 A. [Marks].

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

11 JUDGE KWON: You once mentioned the position point 2. It is

12 intersection of the roads which -- the roads which lead one leading from

13 Potocari to Srebrenica and the one to Susnjari, was that right.

14 A. Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE KWON: And if you could briefly tell me the direction VRS

16 force advanced.

17 A. The direction --

18 JUDGE KWON: In this map, yes.

19 A. The direction the VRS force advanced was using the road in a

20 northern direction.

21 JUDGE KWON: Did you not mention two directions?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, he did.

23 A. Yes. When I was at the point a little bit north of point 02, and

24 if I can help with that to mark it on the map.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.

Page 2414

1 A. [Marks]. This is point 02. So during the 11th, we basically drew

2 back from the blocking positions, back through the town of Srebrenica, the

3 compound of UN Bravo Company, back to point 02, and the Serb forces then

4 were advancing from the south and shelling also from the south. When the

5 next day the morning of the 12th, my position was just a little bit north

6 of point 02, then the VRS forces that I saw advancing came from the north.

7 They came on the eastern side of the UN base and then came on the road at

8 point 02 and then came north to the location where I was. If you look at

9 the schematic map now, the UN base is just a little bit too close to point

10 02 and has to be put up a little bit more to the north to be correct.

11 JUDGE KWON: If you could mark an arrow there, the direction VRS

12 advanced from the north on this map.

13 A. [Marks].

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 A. And also using the road that was the other direction they came

16 from, from the north.

17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That helps my understanding.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, before we are done with this.

19 The -- for the record, the witness has put two arrows on this map. One is

20 at 20 minutes from observation post golf. Why -- yeah, okay. That

21 according to him signifies the direction of the first attack or approach

22 of the VRS. And then he put a second arrow pointing from the words, "UN

23 base" towards the red circle which is at 3.00 of the words, "PTO 2" which

24 the witness himself wrote on the map. That is indicative of, according to

25 him, the direction of the attack or approach of the VRS on the second

Page 2415

1 occasion.

2 Yesterday, however, you indicated two, when you were referring to

3 the approach of the VRS, near 02, you put -- you placed two arrows. Could

4 you also put on the map the other arrow? If it is possible.

5 A. Yes, Your Honour, of course. The other arrow was following the

6 road.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That road.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now the witness has put another -- a

10 third arrow at 35 minutes from observation post P, Papa. Okay. Any

11 further questions, Judge Stole? Judge?

12 Major, we have come to the end of your testimony. Please sign the

13 map that you've worked with now.

14 A. [Marks].

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And that will be introduced in the

16 records as one of the Court documents, in-court documents. All right.

17 Major we have come to the ends of your testimony. I thank you very much

18 for having come over to give evidence. I thank you on my own behalf, I

19 thank you on behalf of my colleagues, Judge Kwon from Korea, Judge Prost

20 from Canada, and Judge Stole from Norway and I thank you also on behalf of

21 the Tribunal in general. You'll receive now all the assistance you

22 require to facilitate your return to your duties or home or whatever.

23 Since I assume you would be going back to Vicenza in Italy, on

24 behalf of everyone here I also wish you a safe journey back home.

25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2416

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I understand there may be some slight business

3 to transact. First of course will be the admission of -- tendering and

4 admission of exhibits. Let's start with you, Mr. Thayer.

5 MR. THAYER: Mr. President the Prosecution has three exhibits to

6 tender through Major Van Duijn's testimony.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought it was four.

8 MR. THAYER: We have four. It's the cleared version that's -- we

9 can offer that. I understand that has been subject to some dispute but I

10 would offer it again. It's P01516, the aerial of Potocari.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with that one R there any objections?

12 Yes, Mr. Ostojic?

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Although we didn't cross

14 this witness I thought we understood with the aerial photographs we are

15 going to have that all stayed for the moment and I just want to reserve

16 our objection to that and the introduction of that into evidence.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Ostojic, that's how it's going to be.

18 Let's proceed with the next and then we'll tell you what our decision

19 is. Next?

20 MR. THAYER: The next is PIC 00009. That is the same aerial of

21 Potocari marked by the witness where he has indicated the DutchBat

22 compound and the refugee area.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Any objections on this?

24 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objection, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Next?

Page 2417

1 MR. THAYER: The next is PIC 00011, same aerial of Potocari marked

2 by the witness indicating the lawn area.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objection, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I wonder what one of your colleagues is

5 going to say who made use of the same aerial images and had the witness

6 mark them, put marks on them. But let's come to that later.

7 Yes, next document you wish to tender, Mr. Thayer?

8 MR. THAYER: The final exhibit is PIC 00012, the same aerial

9 marked by the witness indicating the "White House."

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, we will be deciding the question of

13 exhibits -- you made use of this same aerial image of Potocari, and the

14 witness has put on that image also some markings. And my understanding,

15 correct me if I'm wrong, is that you also wish to tender that into

16 evidence.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You stand by that?

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We did it as a PO 1516.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And do you object to that, Mr. Ostojic?

21 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may address the Court I don't think it's as

22 complicated as it might seem at first blush. Quite candidly if the

23 Prosecution introduces an exhibit with the witness it's not our obligation

24 to foresee that the Court will accept or deny that exhibit into evidence.

25 It's our duty to examine the witness with that exhibit whether the Court

Page 2418

1 accepts or not it was the evidence and simply my objection is to

2 preserve our prior objections to these aerial photographs

3 consistent with what I thought was the Court's

4 ruling.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: That's my objection to it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I think the position should emerge

8 clear now. As far as P 01516 itself, unmarked, in et cetera original

9 state is concerned, that has already been marked for identification on a

10 previous occasion and it will remain so marked rather than admitted, of

11 course, pending the resolution of the various issue that is have been

12 raised in relation to all aerial images. As regards PIC in court, in

13 other words, 0009 to 12, those will be admitted because they have been

14 simply been made use of in the course of the testimony, and marked by the

15 witness. The same will apply to the one being submitted by the Defence of

16 Mr. Popovic, with the understanding that it is not the tendering of P01516

17 that is being sought by the Defence of Mr. Popovic, but the -- what would

18 be in-court number -- I wouldn't know what number this will be given. It

19 will be 1 DIC 13. All right?

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: To that disposes of your requests, Mr. Thayer, and

22 yours. And what remains to be seen is the documents tendered by the

23 Borovcanin Defence team. Let's start with the first one.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The first one is a copy of a map. The reference is

Page 2419

1 R 0132155, to 156, included with the OTP proofing of the witness of the 14

2 September 2006. This contains also some markings made by the witness

3 himself. It has a 65 ter number 4 DIC 00014. Any objection?

4 MR. THAYER: None, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So it is so admitted. Next is excerpt of

6 video 3914, counter reading from 19 minutes point 34 to 19 minutes point

7 50 and 21 minutes point 10 seconds to 21 minutes point 16 seconds. It has

8 Prosecution 65 ter marking which is 2007. Is there any objection?

9 MR. THAYER: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So it is being admitted. Now, we had agreed

11 on the system to be adopted when it is a -- Prosecution. So it will be --

12 yes. It will be marked as 4 -- as 4D exhibit with, immediately

13 afterwards, the Prosecution 65 ter number.

14 Now comes the crux of the discussion. Borovcanin team seeks

15 admission of the OTP witness statement of the 25th of October 1995, not of

16 the entire statement but of two segments thereof. One is -- relates to

17 paragraph 8, page 8 of the English version, with the corresponding

18 paragraph 7 of page 7 of the B/C/S version. Is there any objection on the

19 part of the Prosecution?

20 MR. THAYER: No objection, Your Honour.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE KWON: Can I clarify one thing? The Defence is minded to

23 certain part of the whole witness statement. The consequence of it, the

24 remaining part will be deleted from the system or the whole statement will

25 remain to understand the context? What's the position of this in relation

Page 2420

1 to this? I'd like to hear from the Defence and the Prosecution as well.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And also, if I may add, Judge Kwon, the question

3 of -- it is my understanding that this paragraph was read out in English,

4 translated into B/C/S. At the same time there was a translation copy

5 available on the screen for the accused to be able to follow at the time

6 So there is also the issue of whether you really need to have this excerpt

7 tendered as an exhibit or whether you are happy to co-exist with the

8 transcript of the proceedings. That's another issue that you may -- maybe

9 you wish to consider, both of you, both you, Mr. Lazarevic, and

10 Mr. Thayer.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you for drawing my

12 attention to this. Actual little we made use only of this part of the

13 statement in cross-examination in the witness and you're absolutely right

14 when saying that it's already contained in the transcript so actually we

15 don't need any admission of the statement of this witness at all. So we

16 would like to delete this from your witness -- from our document --

17 evidence list.

18 JUDGE KWON: That relieves my concern.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. So for the record, the Prosecution --

20 the Defence team for accused Borovcanin does not seek any further

21 introduction of the excerpt from 4 D00036. And that is without prejudice

22 for any further seeking to introduce the entire statement or parts thereof

23 at a later stage in another context. So I think that is perfectly clear.

24 Then there is --

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Same applies to our evidence number 4 because it's

Page 2421

1 same principle.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Same applies to the next

3 entry; that is, to be specific, in case there has been a reference already

4 to the excerpt to wit paragraph 4 from page 27 in the English version,

5 paragraph 8 from page 22 of the Serbo-Croat version of 4 D00038.

6 Therefore, this is not being sought for the time being, without prejudice,

7 as explained earlier.

8 Then there is the witness's statement again from the same

9 document, another excerpt, paragraph 5, page 24 of the English version,

10 paragraph 2 on page 20 of the Serbo-Croat version. I take it that you

11 take the same position? So both excerpts from the same document. Thank

12 you. And then there is --

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- finally, I think, the excerpt from the Srebrenica

15 trial video from counter reading 2 hours 24 minutes 51 seconds through 2

16 hours 24 minutes 55 seconds, dated 13th July 1995, which is part of video

17 4458 with Prosecution 65 ter number PO 2047.

18 All right. The advice we are receiving is that this video has

19 already been made use of by the Prosecution so there is no further need

20 for it to be tendered again by anyone else. Do you accept that,

21 Mr. Lazarevic?

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I do, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

24 I have no notice from any other Defence team of an intention to

25 introduce any other documents, exhibits, all right. Thank you.

Page 2422

1 I just want to make sure, Madam Registrar, that the transcript

2 problem that you told me about has been fixed.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, they are working on that. I don't

4 know if it's already solved but it will be.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: But if there are problems relating to it that

6 trouble you, please come forward and let us know.

7 Can we go into private session for a couple of minutes, please?

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2423











11 Page 2423 redacted. Private session.















Page 2424

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So that concludes the sitting for the day. We will

15 reconvene 16th of -- I think it's in the morning. I thank you so much.

16 And see you soon.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.37 a.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of October,

19 2006, at 9.00 a.m.