Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3847

1 Thursday, 9 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam, and good afternoon to you, too.

10 Everyone is here except Mr. Bourgon.

11 The Prosecution is as it was yesterday, Mr. McCloskey.

12 The witness is in the courtroom. I take it there are no

13 preliminaries?

14 So perhaps, Mr. McCloskey, you can finish your direct and then we

15 pass on to the cross-examinations.

16 Do we have, more or less, an approximate? You had requested two

17 hours.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that one hour will suffice

19 for cross.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic?

21 MR. OSTOJIC: I haven't heard the entire direct, obviously, but I

22 think I predict an hour or 45 minutes. We've changed the order somewhat,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. We will not interfere with that.

25 Mr. Lazarevic, you had indicated an hour and 45 minutes.

Page 3848

1 Mr. Stojanovic?

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

3 We've reorganised ourselves today and I believe we will use 45 minutes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And I take it, if the others had a

5 conservative time, it's still in that region? Madam Fauveau?

6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 30 minutes, but it

7 could, in fact, be a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes only.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic?

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Fifteen minutes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa or Mr. Haynes?

11 MR. SARAPA: Ten minutes, maybe less.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think that if your direct -- the rest of your

13 direct is not long, we can finish this witness today. Let's make an

14 effort.

15 I hope he's understood what we are trying to do in order not to

16 keep him here until Wednesday or Thursday. So, Mr. McCloskey, you may

17 proceed.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I've reorganised as

19 well, and I hope to be fairly short. But I think we can stay in open

20 session for a bit.

21 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-138 [Resumed]

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

25 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor.

Page 3849

1 Q. We left off when you were driving an APC and you came to an area

2 of a little school. Can you tell us about that again, just -- I mean,

3 just take up where we left off. As you come into this area there is a

4 school. What happens?

5 A. I turned the APC around in the direction of the school, in the

6 direction from which I had come. I passed the sports grounds in front of

7 the school and turned around to face the direction I had come from. And

8 the buses and trucks approached the sports grounds and people disembarked

9 and set off in the direction of the school.

10 Q. Again, what had Colonel Popovic done when he approached the area

11 of the school in his vehicle?

12 A. I don't know whether I said this yesterday, but upon approaching

13 the school, he turned off in front of a house, maybe a private house,

14 opposite the school. He took a left turn from the road itself, to a house

15 opposite the -- or across the road from the school.

16 Q. Okay. So now you've turned the APC around and you described

17 seeing people get out of the buses, and you described that yesterday. So

18 what else did you see as you were there watching this?

19 A. I don't know what else I saw.

20 Q. And how long were you there watching it until you moved on?

21 A. I don't know how long it took, but I know that as soon as there

22 was an opening for me to take my APC through, I took it through and drove

23 back.

24 Q. Okay. In the past we have an estimate of roughly how many buses

25 and trucks you saw there. Do you remember how many buses and trucks you

Page 3850

1 saw before you left?

2 A. I don't know. Maybe ten vehicles were emptied before I departed,

3 but I cannot remember how many vehicles stayed there.

4 Q. Okay. If roughly ten vehicles emptied before you departed, were

5 there still vehicles on the road as you left the area of the school, going

6 back towards Zvornik?

7 A. There were other vehicles. They did not empty all the vehicles

8 before I departed. There were vehicles with people still on them.

9 Q. Aside from the ten that emptied, roughly, how many vehicles, just

10 roughly, do you think you drove by that still had people on them?

11 A. I don't know how many more vehicles there were.

12 Q. More than five?

13 A. I don't know. I cannot recall. If I knew it was more than five,

14 I would have told you; if I knew it was less than five, I would have told

15 you, but I cannot recall.

16 Q. Okay. Those old buses - you were a bus driver - can you estimate

17 how many people fit on those kinds of buses that you saw used when they

18 were all filled up?

19 A. I saw that there were no people standing on the buses, in the

20 aisle, so they were not overcrowded. A single bus may take between 40 and

21 50 passengers on board.

22 Q. Okay. And before you left, did you speak to Colonel Popovic at

23 all, or did he speak to you?

24 A. When I saw that there was an opening for me so that I could drive

25 my APC through, I set off. And upon passing by Colonel Popovic, he

Page 3851

1 stopped me and told me that I should stay there, but I told him that I

2 could not stay because I was ordered by Major Nikolic to return, because

3 of some other obligations.

4 Q. Was that true? Had Momir Nikolic ordered you to return?

5 A. He didn't order me -- for me to return to attend to some other

6 duties. I did not feel like staying there any longer. There was no

7 reason for me there. If people were taken there to be exchanged or if

8 they were waiting for the right time to be exchanged, then there was no

9 reason for me to stay there. So this is why I turned back and left.

10 Q. Okay. Let me show you a photo. It's marked PO1691. It should

11 come up on your screen. Do you recognise that? Let's make sure it's

12 there. Do you recognise that place?

13 A. This is supposed to be the school where people were disembarked

14 when they came there. I turned around next to this fence, from the spot

15 where this photo was taken, and the vehicles pulled up beside the sports

16 grounds. They disembarked passengers across that sports ground. And by

17 the wall of the school, there was a fence, one and a half metres from the

18 wall of the school, and they passed between the fence and the wall of the

19 school, moving towards the gym.

20 Q. So does this look like the school where you were?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. All right. And what do you do when you leave the area of

23 the school?

24 A. I drove back to my headquarters, the headquarters of the Bratunac

25 Brigade, and came back to my military police platoon.

Page 3852

1 Q. Okay. Now I want to go over an exhibit with you. I know you've

2 seen it before. It's called the -- well, the military police, the log of

3 the military police, something to that effect. Can you tell us what that

4 is and we'll -- you'll be able to see different entries from it on the

5 screen.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: And it may be easier if I just give him the B/C/S

7 version.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. Just hand it over to him. If he's seen

9 it already, as far as you state, then you just put the questions you wish.

10 Do we have them also in e-court, or not?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And I think that should be coming up pretty

12 soon.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Could you please tell us what the 65 ter number

14 is, please.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter 220. Sorry. And if we could -- that's 30

16 June, if we could just start with 11 July, that would be a good idea.

17 Q. While they are getting to 11 July, can you tell us --

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Maybe go into private session, just briefly.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go into private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3853











11 Pages 3853-3870 redacted.Private session















Page 3871

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We can start the first cross-examination now or we

5 can have the break now, but I see that Mr. Krgovic is already on his

6 feet.

7 Mr. Krgovic is appearing for General Gvero in this case and he

8 will be cross-examining you.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions in connection with an

13 event that you described to the Prosecutor and which you described in your

14 statement in November in 2002, I think. You mentioned on that occasion

15 the members of the DutchBat who were billeted in Bratunac, and in an

16 interview with the Prosecutor, you said that these members of the DutchBat

17 fled to the Serbian side because they were afraid of Muslim attacks,

18 because the Muslims wanted to take their weapons away and they wanted to

19 murder them. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes. This was how it was.

21 Q. Among those were people from the OP Mike; is that right?

22 A. I don't recall the titles of their observation posts. I believe

23 they were at Jaglici. They had a check-point there, at Jaglici. There

24 were some other elevations, et cetera, but they had observation posts

25 around Srebrenica and they had their own official titles. The DutchBat

Page 3872

1 had their own official titles or names for these. I remember this name

2 Jaglici. I remember well that they said they had come from the Jaglici

3 observation post but I never knew where it was located.

4 Q. So the Dutch soldiers fled from the Jaglici OP?

5 A. Yes, and from other points. Some came from Jaglici; others from

6 another. I stated here, if you remember, when I discussed the stay at

7 Konjevic Polje, that two members of the DutchBat came without any

8 vehicles, carrying just their personal sidearms and a knapsack, rifle and

9 a knapsack, came to the Konjevic Polje intersection.

10 Q. And you performed the security services during their stay at the

11 high school?

12 A. Yes. We did so for a very long time. We would take them to

13 breakfast, lunch and dinner, to the kitchen of the Bratunac Brigade HQ.

14 For instance, one military policeman would escort them so that nobody from

15 among the soldiers or citizens would harm them in any way. That military

16 person would take them and escort them to the kitchen and then back.

17 Q. And the Prosecutor, while interviewing you, asked you whether you

18 knew why they were not later returned to Potocari base, and you said that

19 they didn't want to go back because they didn't know what was happening

20 there.

21 A. Exactly. They didn't want to do because they were safer here.

22 Maybe they were afraid that they would be engaged by their own battalion

23 in an action, an operation, and they simply abandoned their HQ at

24 Potocari, which was the main base of UNPROFOR in this area.

25 Q. I will broach another subject. Answering the Prosecutor's

Page 3873

1 question on whether anything of importance was going on in July,

2 immediately before the fall of Srebrenica, you responded that there was a

3 period where there were daily incidents and attacks of Muslim forces from

4 Srebrenica against the villages --


6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have an objection. At this point, I don't see

7 how this is relevant. And time is of the essence.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Krgovic, what's the relevance?

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, since the thesis of the

10 Defence is that the attack against the enclave was carried out because of

11 military reasons, because, in the period immediately before the attack,

12 Muslims had carried out frequent attacks and terrorist acts and attacked,

13 that this was the trigger to the attack against the enclave. And the

14 thesis of the Defence is that the attack against the enclave was a pure

15 military target and goal.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, perhaps I can be of some help. For

18 many years now, we have agreed with the Defence --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: This is precisely what my colleagues and I are

20 trying to -- because I am under the impression that this is, in a way,

21 dealt with already.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can briefly state the position.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: The position is that Muslims did attack outside

25 the enclave and that this did provide military justification for the Serb

Page 3874

1 troops to attack Srebrenica. However, it has been our position that the

2 attack on Srebrenica had a dual motive: One was military and it had some

3 legitimacy; two was to take out the Muslim population from the enclave,

4 which is a crime against humanity. And that when there are two motives,

5 one legitimate and one illegitimate, our charges are based on the

6 illegitimate one. We have never suggested - and you won't see it in

7 Mr. Butler's report - that Naser Oric and his units did not attack. In

8 fact, we have provided the documents that showed that it was policy to

9 attack and tie down the Muslim forces to be -- or tie down the Serb forces

10 to prevent them from going to the Sarajevo front where the real battles in

11 1995 were going on. This is all part of our case, for this continuing

12 area. And now I'm taking up too much time, so I will be quiet. But this

13 is the position of the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

15 Mr. Krgovic and the rest of you, I would look at the indictment,

16 see what the charges are, concentrate on those charges and the alleged

17 responsibility of your clients, and forget history. You're not going to

18 rewrite history, Mr. Krgovic, neither you, nor anybody else, for that

19 matter. And I think what is being conceded by Mr. McCloskey goes even

20 beyond what has been decided in some cases here.

21 So I suggest you go straight to what is relevant. I mean, you're

22 not defending here the entire VRS or the Main Staff or Republika Srpska or

23 the Serb -- I mean, it's only your clients that are indicted in this

24 case. It's neither Serbia, nor the Serbian people, nor the VRS. It's

25 your clients that are being indicted here.

Page 3875

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a real waste of time that we have to have our

3 attention address these matters when -- they are relevant, I mean, there

4 is no question that they are not relevant. But you should be

5 concentrating on what is really more important in this case, and that's

6 the alleged responsibility of your clients, and, of course, whether the

7 events actually took place or not, because that's another fundamental part

8 of the case.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, but there is

10 another thing here. My client, among other things, has been charged with

11 providing false information and that, in his statements for the press,

12 misrepresented certain facts; specifically, one document cited by the

13 Prosecutor in his introduction, referring to my client's statement about

14 Srebrenica, has been construed by the Prosecutor in one way, but the

15 Defence of General Gvero is that the facts that he enumerated in his

16 public statements really did occur in the way that he described them.

17 This is why I want to check some facts.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: He is not being charged for having given false

19 information. He's being charged with what he's being charged with in this

20 indictment. That's why my invitation was to you to concentrate on that.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: May I say something, Your Honour? I accept the

22 Court's invitation, and I tried to shorten it yesterday with a motion.

23 But if we are going to address only the charges in the indictment, then I

24 think I need to restate my motion and reiterate it again, because those

25 aren't the charges, as we discussed yesterday, on the issue of reburial.

Page 3876

1 And I agree with the Court's logic. With all due respect, however, I

2 don't think that we applied that logic with respect to this motion, so --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, your client is not charged with

4 reburial.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: That's all I wanted to hear you say. Thank you,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: There is nothing in the indictment that says that

8 your client is charged with reburial. This is what I'm trying to make you

9 understand. And I wouldn't like to waste more time on this.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Microphone not activated].

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Which pertains to my client, which

13 says [In English] the statement concerning the attacks on the enclave in

14 order to assist in the take-down of the Srebrenica enclave.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: But Mr. McCloskey is telling you precisely that did

16 happen - this is what he's saying - but other things happened, too, and

17 the attack on Srebrenica was a double-pronged operation. One was meant to

18 reach one target and the other was meant to obtain another --

19 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: To try to save time, I would like to meet with

21 counsel. We can go over the statements that his client made. I will

22 agree with him that they are not all false, and I can show him which ones

23 I don't believe are false. Some of them, in the exact area he's talking

24 about, are not false, though false statements is a part of the

25 indictment. But I'm sure we can agree on which ones aren't false, and the

Page 3877

1 ones related to Muslim attacks may very well not be false.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, I think it's time to have the break now.

3 We'll have a 25-minute break. In the meantime, see if you can discuss

4 further with Mr. McCloskey on this, and then you proceed with your

5 cross-examination.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

7 Honours --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] -- so let it be known.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a break of 25 minutes now.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic is going first. I leave it in your

14 wisdom and discretion to tell us when we need to go into private session,

15 all right? So you know how we've been going the past two days, and there

16 are some issues we are dealing with in private session, some issues in

17 open.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will be mindful of that, Your

19 Honour. Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure you will, Mr. Zivanovic.

21 Mr. Zivanovic is appearing for Colonel Popovic and he will be

22 cross-examining you now.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 3878

1 Q. I will not be addressing you by your name because you have

2 protective measures.

3 I would want to direct your attention to the day when you

4 escorted, in the APC, some vehicles holding refugees in -- all the way to

5 a school near Zvornik. If I remember correctly, you said that you saw

6 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic park his car to -- rather, on the left-hand

7 side of the school, opposite the location where the school is; is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You went straight on and entered the yard of the school compound,

11 or rather, the sports grounds, or did you make a U-turn before that?

12 A. No. I passed by the school grounds, and made a U-turn to that

13 spot that we were able to see on the photograph. I'm not sure whether

14 this is the spot where the roads fork off.

15 Q. Very well. If I understand you correctly, you didn't stay there

16 for too long. You weren't able to tell us how long, in fact, it took you

17 to head back.

18 A. I don't know how long it was, but it wasn't that long after

19 several vehicles were emptied and the people went to the school, at which

20 point I had an opening in the road and was able to head back, and I did.

21 Q. And as you proceeded, as you had the opening in the road, you were

22 able to leave the area smoothly.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Before leaving, you saw Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, who asked you

25 to stay there for sometime still.

Page 3879

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This is what you stated, but let me ask you this: Did he stay on

3 the spot where he stood at the time, next to the parked vehicles?

4 A. He was next to the parked vehicles throughout that time and stayed

5 there.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I already sense that we are going too

8 fast, all right? I didn't tell the witness this before, neither did you.

9 You're both speaking the same language; therefore, there is no need for

10 interpretation between you. But whatever is being said by you is being

11 interpreted to us. So if you don't allow a short pause between question

12 and answer, the interpreters can't translate what you're saying in its

13 entirety. So please allow a short pause between question and answer, all

14 right?

15 Mr. Zivanovic.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. Thank

17 you.

18 Q. We received a piece of information here about the interview you

19 had with the Prosecution before this trial commenced, and there, I was

20 able to read that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, as he stood by his car, when

21 you saw him, that he spoke to some persons in civilian clothes. Can you

22 confirm this?

23 A. I said that there were some people there in civilian clothes.

24 There were even women and children there, whether they had their homes

25 nearby. But all around the school there were people observing. Whether

Page 3880

1 he communicated with anyone or not, I don't know. At any rate, there were

2 people in his immediate vicinity.

3 Q. Among other things, you told us that the military police had,

4 among other things, the task of protecting prisoners from the angered

5 residents of Bratunac who had lost their relatives, family members,

6 friends and so on. You also said that the police took care of this along

7 the road on which the prisoners were being transported. Did you have

8 occasion to see something of the sort on that particular location near

9 Zvornik where you came with the vehicles, since you say you saw a lot of

10 civilians there?

11 A. There were quite a few civilians there; however, there was no

12 reaction on their part whatsoever, either good or bad. They simply stayed

13 aside and looked on as we arrived with the convoy.

14 Q. You're talking about the civilians, the same ones who were there

15 where Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I read your earlier statements and had occasion to read your

18 earlier evidence before this Tribunal. I was under the impression that

19 your general recollection of the events in Srebrenica became quite poor in

20 time. I wanted to ask you this -- now, I could exhaustively present to

21 you your evidence; however, I would like to ask you this: The

22 discrepancies or differences in your testimony, can they be ascribed to

23 your poor memory?

24 A. Of course, they can be ascribed to my poor recollection of these

25 events, because I do not talk about these events to anyone in order to

Page 3881

1 refresh my memory repeatedly. However, what remained etched in my memory,

2 as much as I do remember, I do convey to you the way I remember them. For

3 instance, five years ago, my memory must have been much better because the

4 lapse of time was shorter, six or five years ago.

5 Q. Would it be right to say that at the time you gave some

6 statements, which was six or eight years after the events of Srebrenica,

7 that even at that time your memory faded?

8 A. Of course. I didn't have anything to make me remember these

9 matters.

10 Q. Today, and previously, you were asked to talk about the events

11 that took place only in two consecutive days, or perhaps even three

12 consecutive days. I also noticed in your earlier statements, where you

13 emphasised this, that these events tended to become confused in your

14 memory, to get all mixed up. Would you stand by that statement today?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would it, therefore, be correct if I said that you're talking

17 about matters that you remember, but that you cannot fully guarantee that

18 the way you remember these matters is accurate?

19 A. I can't recall all the details, and I find it quite logical. I

20 can't remember, and I don't know of anyone else who could recall when he

21 had seen a person, whether it was in the morning, in the afternoon, or

22 what they were specifically doing. I really can't remember.

23 Q. Upon your return from that location near Zvornik, you saw

24 Mr. Momir Nikolic; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3882

1 Q. And you told him where you had been and what you'd been doing.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you tell him that you were given the task of safely escorting

4 the convoy holding prisoners to a location near Zvornik?

5 A. I told him that I was tasked with staying near the vehicle, and

6 that I didn't know where I was going. I told him that, as I was following

7 the vehicle in front of me, holding Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel Popovic,

8 that I thus reached a village beyond Zvornik, that I pulled up there and I

9 told him the way things happened.

10 Q. Did you tell him that you followed the convoy but without

11 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic?

12 A. Well, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was not in my vehicle. He was in

13 the vehicle in front of me. I didn't know where we were heading.

14 Q. I understood what you were saying. However, my question is: Did

15 you tell Mr. Momir Nikolic that you led the convoy without mentioning

16 Lieutenant Popovic as being in front of you?

17 A. I don't know what I told him, but if I --

18 Q. Very well. Did you tell him that, among other things, your task

19 was to escort the convoy and that you should return as soon as the

20 prisoners were safely put up on that location near Zvornik?

21 A. I didn't tell him that my task was -- or this was my knowledge:

22 The prisoners were supposed to go there in order to be exchanged all for

23 all.

24 Q. Yes, you've said that. But my question is: Did you tell this to

25 Momir Nikolic? Did you tell him what I've just asked you? Did you tell

Page 3883

1 him about what happened? You don't need to go into these other matters.

2 You've already mentioned them.

3 A. I told him that I did not wait for the entire convoy to disembark,

4 and that as soon as I was able to pass along the road, I returned.

5 Q. Very well. And did you tell him that the transport was secured by

6 the military policemen from the Bratunac Brigade?

7 A. In that convoy, there were no members of the Bratunac Brigade

8 military police. I didn't send them, nor could I have sent them. I

9 didn't know whether there were any or if there were any.

10 Q. Did you tell Momir Nikolic at the time anything concerning

11 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, except for saying that you received the

12 instructions from him to escort the prisoners to that location?

13 A. I told him that he had asked that I stay at the point when I

14 wanted to return, and that I had told him that I was unable to stay behind

15 because I had obligations to attend to, obligations that were given to me

16 by Momir Nikolic.

17 Q. And this was the only thing you told him.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. You've heard this, but before this Tribunal and before

20 the Bosnian judiciary, you hold the status of a suspect. You're aware of

21 that, aren't you?

22 A. Well, if this is the case, indeed, well, what can I do about it?

23 Q. Do you know that the other two persons you mentioned here also

24 hold the same status, who were with you at the time?

25 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know.

Page 3884

1 Q. You don't know. Are you aware that the other two persons were

2 heard in a proceedings before the Tribunal?

3 A. I was --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a short while.

5 [Private session]

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Page 3885

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10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I told you use your --

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I avoided mentioning

15 any names to avoid them being connected with the witness, and this is why

16 I wanted us to remain in open session. But now that this matter has been

17 resolved, my intention was to elicit from the witness information whether

18 he knew that these two witnesses appeared in trials connected with this

19 case at this Tribunal, and this was the sole intention.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I need to answer, my answer would

21 be this: I don't know about Petrovic, but I do know about this Popovic,

22 that he was involved in the process against Naser Oric, in the trial. I

23 saw it on television. And that information was such that there was an

24 incident in the courtroom at that point, and this is how I know about

25 that.

Page 3886

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] So, the witness has just testified

2 in open session about these two other witnesses, but to which extent this

3 could be connected back to his identity, I don't know.

4 Q. My next question would be, it seems to me that you've already been

5 summoned by Bosnian authorities to give statement, as well as the other

6 two individuals who were there with you. Is it known to you?

7 A. I'm not familiar with them being summoned. I know that I've been

8 summoned. Maybe it was the Srebrenica commission or whatnot. Is that

9 what you mean? Maybe these are police inquiries to determine the facts of

10 the Srebrenica case. Anyway, I don't know. I can't be specific, but I

11 was summoned to the police station on several occasions and criminal --

12 forensics personnel from Bijeljina came and they interviewed me about

13 this, et cetera.

14 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did you have occasion to talk about those

15 summons with those two individuals, and did you discuss with them matters

16 that you're going to be interviewed about?

17 A. I did not discuss with them the subject matter of this

18 examination. Everybody can testify to what they remember. I cannot

19 restore anybody else's memory, and I don't want anybody else to restore my

20 memory. I don't want to be prepared or primed because, frankly speaking,

21 I get confused. If I remember something, I remember it, and there is a

22 reason why I remember something. But if there are immaterial things that

23 I don't see as important, like when I saw somebody, et cetera, that I do

24 not recall.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note there was overlap.

Page 3887

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You are overlapping again. Could you kindly repeat

2 your question, please. Thank you.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. What priming do you mean that may result in you being confused?

5 A. I mean the proofing by the Prosecution and citing my earlier

6 statements, you know.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

9 questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Zivanovic. I understand

11 that the Beara Defence team will be cross-examining you now, and that's

12 Mr. Ostojic --

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- who is lead counsel defending Colonel Beara.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Upon

16 consultation with Mr. Beara, we will not have any questions of this

17 witness. Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Ostojic. That takes us to

19 Mr. Stojanovic, who is defending, together with Mr. Lazarevic,

20 Mr. Borovcanin in this case. He will be cross-examining you now.

21 Go ahead.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours,

23 Witness. I would like to ask to go into private session just for the

24 first question, Your Honours, please.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Indeed, we will.

Page 3888

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. [No interpretation].

23 A. [No interpretation].

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a problem with interpretation.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Immediate superior, the witness said, immediate

Page 3889

1 superior. The question was: You received orders from Momir Nikolic.

2 Answer: My immediate superior was --

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we had problems

4 with the interpretation because we heard French in our headsets.

5 Q. So you received the information from Momir Nikolic.

6 A. Yes, he was my immediate superior. He was the chief of security

7 at Bratunac Brigade.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I don't want any confusion. If

9 you read line 13 of this page, the interpreter said the question -- he is

10 supposedly repeating your question, Mr. Stojanovic. "The question was:

11 You received orders from Momir Nikolic." And then in line 19, again, it's

12 you now, Mr. Stojanovic: "So you received the information from Momir

13 Nikolic."

14 Perhaps you wish to address the question of whether it's orders

15 that we are talking about or mere information, because during that short

16 interval, when we were not receiving interpretation, something might have

17 been said which would need to go in the record.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Sir, the question was: You received orders from Momir Nikolic;

20 isn't that right?

21 A. Yes, it was.

22 Q. Next, I'd like to ask you, Mr. Witness, this: Did you have

23 occasion, during your holding the post of the commander of military police

24 platoon, to learn that Momir Nikolic issued direct orders on the use of

25 members of military police without consulting you or without you knowing

Page 3890

1 about that?

2 A. This would happen very frequently. I could not constantly be

3 there where I was supposed to be at the seat of the military police

4 platoon.

5 Q. On the 12th of July, some members of the military police of the

6 Bratunac Brigade was located at Potocari, under direct orders of Momir

7 Nikolic. Do you personally know anything about that?

8 A. Even when I was at the location where the military police was

9 deployed, Momir Nikolic would come and issue direct orders to some

10 individuals about what they were supposed to do. For instance, "You go

11 there," "You go somewhere else," or "You, five of you, come with me."

12 Then, of course, they had to observe such an order. He did not address me

13 by saying, "You give me an X number of policemen. I'm taking them to do

14 that." He had no duty to address me in this way or to inform me.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask you to go

17 back into private session, Your Honours, for a number of questions.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go back to open session, please --

19 private session, please.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3891

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 3892

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic. Thank you.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, do you know whether Bratunac Brigade military police members

4 were at Potocari on the night between 12th and 13th of July, the ones that

5 you enumerated just a minute ago?

6 A. I think that they were not there, because, in my opinion, General

7 Mladic was not there at the time.

8 Q. Now I would ask you to look jointly at a document.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would like to ask you to

10 help me with the e-court. Exhibit 4D16, Your Honours, this is another --

11 I'm retrieving a statement containing the guilty plea of Momir Nikolic,

12 and I'd like us to focus on the last sentence on page 2 and the first two

13 rows on page 3.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have it on the screen first, because otherwise

15 we will not be able to follow you. Okay. It seems to -- yes, go ahead.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Sir, in this statement of facts and acceptance of responsibility,

18 it reads: "In joint action with these units, I coordinated and supervised

19 the transport of women and children for Kladanj, and the separation and

20 apprehension of able-bodied Muslim men."

21 My question would be: From discussions with Momir Nikolic, are

22 you aware of this activity and these tasks of his?

23 A. Last time I testified before this Tribunal, I gave a statement in

24 connection with -- and, as far as I knew, that was an agreement between

25 Nikolic and the OTP. And that agreement stated, it seems to me, that

Page 3893

1 Nikolic accepted guilt and that he stated that he was in charge of

2 everything, that he was superior than the Main Staff of the VRS and the

3 Commander-in-Chief, General Ratko Mladic.

4 I gave to the OTP, and the OTP had it translated into English and

5 this document was given back to me, but I did not take it with me this

6 time. In that document, it is stated that Momir Nikolic had planned the

7 action to take Srebrenica, that he commanded the action to take

8 Srebrenica, that he had carried out the separation of able-bodied men from

9 women and children, that he was in charge of transporting them, that he

10 committed murders, ordered murders, redeployment of mass graves. And I

11 stated that this was not so because nobody could have done anything

12 without Mladic. Mladic was the commander, and Nikolic could not have

13 planned and carried out all these. I know that he couldn't do so.

14 Q. Do you leave a possibility that he was carrying out such orders;

15 yes or no? Do you know or you don't know?

16 A. Let me say this: I think that he did not carry out these orders.

17 Had he done so, then a military police or some unit subordinated to him

18 would have been involved in that. If he did it on his own, then this is

19 quite another thing.

20 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to ask you about the 13th of July.

21 Together with Momir Nikolic, you took the UN APC to drive to Konjevic

22 Polje; do you remember that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You mentioned a light blue Golf with rotating lights and a

25 megaphone mounted on top of it; do you recall that?

Page 3894

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That Golf joined you at Konjevic Polje, when you arrived there; is

3 that right?

4 A. That Golf did not join us. I never saw where it came from. But

5 he wasn't -- it wasn't there when we reached the intersection. But after

6 a while - I have to slow down because of the interpreters - after a while,

7 after we reached Konjevic Polje, Momir Nikolic told us that we had to

8 follow this vehicle which was 200 or 300 metres away from the intersection

9 in the area. I could see it because visibility was fine. It was standing

10 by the road. And when that vehicle started, I started to follow it, and I

11 kept the same distance between the APC and that vehicle at all times.

12 Q. Do you remember and do you know who drove the vehicle?

13 A. I don't know how many persons there were in the vehicle or who

14 drove the vehicle.

15 Q. But judging by its colour, the vehicle belonged to the civilian

16 police; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Today, the Prosecutor asked you about the position of Ljubomir

19 Borovcanin, and you said that he had left the area before these events

20 concerning Srebrenica; is that right?

21 A. Yes. I don't know how long before that, a year. But at any rate,

22 he left Bratunac and wasn't there at the time.

23 Q. But we agreed that in July of 1995 he was not a member of the

24 civilian police, was he?

25 A. No.

Page 3895

1 Q. According to the position he held at the time, he had nothing to

2 do with the civilian police.

3 A. I don't know which position he held, but he didn't have any

4 dealings with the police that was there, since he had left.

5 Q. Together with that vehicle, the -- rather, apart from that vehicle

6 and your APC, there was another UN APC there; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. It was driven by the members of the Bratunac Brigade.

9 A. I'm not sure whether they were members of the Bratunac Brigade.

10 As they arrived in Konjevic Polje, they set off for Milici. I don't know

11 how far up they went. At any rate, we stopped at the point where I told

12 you and they went straight on.

13 Q. Do you know if at the time the Bratunac Brigade had a megaphone?

14 A. The Bratunac Brigade did not have a megaphone. That vehicle had a

15 loud-speaker mounted on the vehicle next to the rotating light, or rather,

16 two rotating lights, and in between they had a loud-speaker mounted.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see now on e-court

18 Exhibit 65 ter P220. That's the military police log. I want to direct

19 your attention to the pages which hold entries for 23 and 24 July 1995.

20 Could we have the page in the English version for the benefit of

21 the Trial Chamber. In the meantime ...

22 Your Honour, it is quite possible that the section I'm referring

23 to hasn't been translated as yet. This is the document given to us by the

24 Prosecution.

25 JUDGE KWON: I'm afraid the last entry's date is the 21st of July.

Page 3896

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. By your leave, I would read

2 out one relevant passage. It's only one sentence, and then this would

3 enable us to proceed.

4 Q. I would like to direct your attention to one portion of the text,

5 Witness. It says, if you can follow: "Because of the numerous cases of

6 apprehension or bringing in, we had to inform them over the megaphone."

7 Do you see that part?

8 A. I see that.

9 Q. Can you tell me what this is about, and what is this megaphone

10 about, contained in this report?

11 A. The megaphone must have been borrowed from the brigade

12 headquarters. It's the normal bull horn, hand-held. It wasn't the one

13 that would be mounted on a vehicle. Battery-operated.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would again ask us to see on

15 e-court 4D16, and to turn to page 5, to the second paragraph in the

16 English version. In the B/C/S version, that would be page 5, third

17 paragraph.

18 Q. I'd ask you again to look at a portion of Momir Nikolic's guilty

19 plea statement, where he says, when describing this day, that Mile

20 Petrovic was seated on the APC and, over the megaphone, called upon Muslim

21 men to surrender. Is it possible that this was the way it actually

22 happened?

23 A. It didn't happen that way. We didn't have any megaphone with us.

24 Nikolic even stated in one of his statements that Mile Petrovic drove that

25 APC. I cannot say that Mile Petrovic drove the APC when I drove it. Now,

Page 3897

1 whether this is the way he remembers these events, or maybe he has other

2 reasons for saying this, but I want to recount the events as they

3 happened.

4 Q. Still, would you allow the possibility that you didn't know of the

5 existence -- of the possible existence of a megaphone in the other APC?

6 You didn't see anything of the sort.

7 A. Well, I didn't see anything of the sort, and, besides, it wasn't

8 that APC that followed the vehicle, it was my APC that followed the

9 vehicle. And I wasn't able to hear what was said because of the noise

10 produced by the APC engine.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private

12 session again for the next two questions, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We will go into private session, please.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3898

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Can you help us and tell us anything about the burial of the dead

9 at the UN base between the 12th and the 13th, within the UN base compound?

10 A. I didn't know that there were any dead people in the UN base at

11 all. I know that the sick and wounded were transferred to the infirmary

12 of the health centre in Bratunac that was secured by the military police.

13 Q. Did the Bratunac Brigade military police at one point take control

14 of the UN base facility itself after they left Potocari?

15 A. As the UN, the DutchBat, left the base, the military police

16 secured the facility itself and the property that had been left behind.

17 Some 20 containers may have been left behind, of some sort of equipment,

18 and this was secured by the military police until further notice, or I

19 don't know what happened to it, what became of it later.

20 Q. Part of their military equipment was left behind at the base, and

21 you secured it.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Until what time did you provide security of the equipment and who

24 did you hand the facility and the equipment to?

25 A. I don't know who the equipment was handed over to. I know that

Page 3899

1 the military police secured the facility for quite a long time, the

2 perimeter, the compound of the base itself.

3 Q. Was the equipment safe thereby?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'm nearing the end of my examination. In view of what you did,

6 both in your civilian career and in wartime, I meant in civilian police

7 and military police, did you have occasion to see the possibility of

8 regular police being subordinated to the army in combat activities?

9 A. I don't know who commanded whom and who issued orders to whom. I

10 don't even know who issued orders to me any longer. As I said, it is

11 quite possible that an element of a unit or a unit itself is given over to

12 a commander's competence. For instance, the entire military police

13 platoon or an element, a part of the military police platoon, or any other

14 unit, may have been given to the jurisdiction of a different unit for a

15 specific task. And for as long as the command to which the unit was

16 subordinated does not indicate to the unit that it can go back to its

17 initial chain of command, they stay within or under the formation to which

18 they were temporarily assigned.

19 Q. Were you at any time during the war in a position to see that the

20 army was subordinated to the civilian police?

21 A. Such a thing never happened, that the army would be subordinated

22 to the civilian police. The army was more numerous. There was a war on

23 and there was no way in which the army could have been subordinated to the

24 civilian police.

25 Q. And let me finish with this question: You've heard of Ljubomir

Page 3900

1 Borovcanin.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You've heard that for a while he was the commander of the police

4 station at Bratunac?

5 A. I wasn't sure whether he was the commander or the deputy commander

6 or assistant commander. I know that he was in the Bratunac police

7 station, holding a certain position. He wasn't a regular policeman.

8 Q. This wasn't, or rather, this was after the period during which you

9 were the policeman at the police station in Bratunac.

10 A. I was a policeman there in early 1992 for some two or three

11 months, and Mr. Borovcanin wasn't in the area of Bratunac municipality at

12 the time at all. It was, perhaps, a year or two years or three years

13 later that he came to Bratunac.

14 Q. Did you ever hear, in the community where you live in Bratunac and

15 the surrounding area, anything bad about the person called Ljubomir

16 Borovcanin?

17 A. I didn't know him that well, but pretty well. I know that he was

18 never a bad man toward anyone. This was a quite a small town, and any

19 news, be it good or bad, is spread around quickly. I know that he was a

20 good man, and what else can I tell you.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

22 questions. If I could only ask you to move into private session for just

23 a bit.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.

25 Let's move to private session for a while, please.

Page 3901

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

19 Madam Nikolic is defending Mr. Nikolic in this case, not the Momir

20 Nikolic that you knew but someone else. Go ahead.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. I'd like to bring you back to your journey to Zvornik, to the

25 moment when you departed Bratunac with the convoy. Yesterday, you

Page 3902

1 testified that this happened two hours before mid-day, so that would be

2 around 10.00 a.m.

3 A. I don't believe I put it this way. I said that I was positioned

4 there at a certain spot, and that after that, I was moved twice to the

5 departure point.

6 Q. Well, on the two occasions when you were moved, that took a long

7 time.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You waited for the convoy to be formed.

10 A. Well, probably it was very slow in forming, but while I took the

11 fuel at the turning-off point to the brigade headquarters, whether the

12 convoy had been forming at that time, but when I turned around and saw

13 this convoy, as far as I could see, I cannot tell you whether some other

14 vehicles joined the convoy.

15 Q. My question pertained to a long period of time necessary for

16 establishing this convoy.

17 A. Yes, okay.

18 Q. After those two repositionings, did you depart for Zvornik, around

19 2.00 p.m.?

20 A. I don't know, really, what the hour was when we departed, but I

21 was there for a long time.

22 Q. Even approximately?

23 A. Not even approximately. It was a summer day. I know it was a

24 very hot day. I couldn't have gauged the exact hour.

25 Q. Could I refresh your memory by quoting your testimony in the

Page 3903

1 Blagojevic case. Page 3678 of the transcript in the Blagojevic case,

2 during cross-examination by my colleague, he put to you a similar question

3 and you answered that you waited quite a long time, and at one point you

4 said:

5 "[In English] I don't know how long. Perhaps about one hour, one

6 hour 30, until 2.00, we left from that place."

7 A. Just as I said now, I do not recall when we departed. Maybe 1.30,

8 maybe 2.30.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. The journey to Zvornik and that

10 school took you one hour, approximately.

11 A. I don't know which speed we drove at. The instruments showed

12 miles in that APC, so I can't be specific about the speed. We couldn't

13 move fast because the column was long and Colonel Popovic set the pace. I

14 couldn't overtake him. I couldn't be faster than his vehicle. And

15 probably Colonel Popovic was checking in the wing mirror whether the

16 column was following him.

17 Q. Can we say one --

18 A. One, one and a half hours. Well, the distance between Bratunac

19 and Zvornik is 44 kilometres, and then 6, 7 additional kilometres, maybe

20 50 kilometres to reach that school.

21 Q. So you reached the school around 3.00, half past 3.00.

22 A. Probably. I don't know.

23 Q. Thank you. When you reached that point, you said that you did not

24 leave the APC; you stayed on it. You mentioned what was the situation,

25 that there were civilians around. Did you notice any prisoners within the

Page 3904

1 school building when you reached that point?

2 A. Even if there were some prisoners in the school, I could not have

3 seen them. I don't recall whether there were any windows in the gym, and

4 if there are any windows on the gym, they would be positioned very high

5 up. So I did not notice any people within the buildings.

6 Q. Thank you. When you returned to Bratunac in the following days,

7 did you report to Mr. Momir Nikolic that on the 14th of July, many Muslim

8 prisoners were detained in schools and buildings in Zvornik?

9 A. I know about that school but I did not see any other schools. I

10 didn't know how this -- what was the name of that place to explain where

11 we were. I just said where we were and that the people stayed there

12 probably to be exchanged all at once, or maybe in groups, and transported

13 to the territory of Sapna.

14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 4D16 put up (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's do that.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3905

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And, Madam Nikolic, you can proceed.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. The interpreters are hearing some

15 strange noise and the French channel from the courtroom.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Hold it. I am informed by the interpreter who is on

17 line at the moment that he, at least, is hearing strange noises and also

18 interpretation in French or conversation in French.

19 THE INTERPRETER: It stopped just now, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now it seems to be all right. I just want to

21 make sure that we can proceed in perfect shape.

22 Yes, Ms. Nikolic, sorry for the interruption. Please go ahead

23 with your question.

24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. I will put just one more question to you. The same document, page

Page 3906

1 4, paragraph 9. I'm going to ask you a question and you may take a look

2 at the text, if you and I should disagree about this.

3 When you were at Konjevic Polje, you stayed there at the

4 intersection for a long time on your APC. Do you recall the passage of

5 General Mladic, who stopped there and received a report from Momir Nikolic

6 and who stayed for a while in conversation with him?

7 A. I'm not interested in what he stated. But I'm trying to sort out

8 this memory for myself. I think that General Mladic passed that point in

9 a Puch vehicle and that he was escorted, maybe a military police escort,

10 from the Bratunac Brigade military police platoon.

11 Q. Did he stop and did Momir Nikolic report to him?

12 A. I don't remember him stopping or receiving a report. At any rate,

13 he did not stay there long. Maybe they conversed, but I don't remember

14 any formal report being given and any longer conversation.

15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Witness.

16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. No further

17 questions.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

19 Now, Madam Fauveau, who is defending General Miletic, will start

20 her cross-examination. Thank you. We will have a break at a quarter to

21 6.00.

22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Honour, that I will

23 be able to finish before the break.

24 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Yesterday, on page 76 of the transcript, you said

Page 3907

1 that the Muslims had been detained for one night after the enclave fell in

2 a school in Bratunac. I just wanted to clarify one point. You, yourself,

3 were not in these schools or around these schools where the Muslims were

4 being held.

5 A. No, I wasn't in the vicinity of the school, nor in the school.

6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session,

7 please, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 3908

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is it fair to say that the unit of the military police of Bratunac

17 were in charge of securing the Hotel Fontana, together with civilian

18 police?

19 A. That is correct, but I have to make a remark on when this

20 happened. Civilian police did not secure the Fontana Hotel on a permanent

21 basis, throughout this process. They would secure -- the civilian police

22 would secure the hotel together with the military police only when

23 meetings were being held. I know of a meeting with the representatives of

24 the Muslim population, of UNPROFOR, and most probably representatives of

25 the army of the Republika Srpska.

Page 3909

1 Q. Sir, you were not standing before the schools in Bratunac when the

2 Muslim prisoners were detained there. How do you know which unit was

3 actually there?

4 A. I didn't say that I knew this or that unit, and I said that I

5 didn't know whether this unit came from Bratunac brigade at all -- at

6 all. So I didn't say that I knew which unit it was.

7 Q. But how, in that case, can you tell that it was a military unit?

8 A. I don't know. How could I know? Maybe somebody told me which

9 unit it was, but I don't know who was there then. I know there weren't

10 civilian police there.

11 Q. Yesterday, you said - this was on page 35 of yesterday's

12 transcript - that when some people belonging to the Main Staff and the

13 Drina Corps arrived in Bratunac, the command post of the Drina Corps was

14 located in the Hotel Fontana. I would like to ask you this question: Do

15 you know what a command post of the Drina Corps would be?

16 A. The commander of the Drina Corps was Krstic. I can't remember his

17 given name. General Krstic.

18 Q. You haven't really answered my question, but I shall rephrase it.

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session,

20 please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go back to private session.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3910











11 Page 3910 redacted.Private session















Page 3911

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2 (redacted)

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

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9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse, what happened to Mr. Krgovic?

22 MR. JOSSE: He's left for the day, Your Honour. Could I apologise

23 to the Bench? I, perhaps, should have mentioned it. I thought it prudent

24 that rather than highlight it, he just be allowed to leave. But if it was

25 remiss of me not to mention it, I apologise, of course.

Page 3912

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It should be the practice that we should be

2 informed, but it's all right. Thank you for letting us know.

3 Is Mr. Sarapa going to cross-examine this witness or the

4 Pandurevic Defence team, for that matter?

5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes. I believe that we are going to

6 be through by the time for the break. I have one question, one topic to

7 cover, and I believe I'll be finished quickly.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Thank you.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

10 Q. [Interpretation] We will be talking about 1992, the beginning of

11 the war, before the attack on the army. You said that there were families

12 leaving Tuzla.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. These were Serbian families, weren't they?

15 A. Yes, Serbian families, and that was the way I left Tuzla. I just

16 couldn't leave, walk out on my job, so I asked to be placed on annual

17 leave in order to find a safe shelter for my family, so I did.

18 Q. Can you please specify what were the circumstances which dictated

19 your departure from there? Can you specify the reasons which prompted you

20 to leave Tuzla?

21 A. Let me tell you, on several occasions, the word was that the Green

22 Berets had made an incursion into the town, that they had taken control of

23 the MUP and other institutions, and this instilled unrest among the Serb

24 population and the other population as well.

25 Q. Would you say that you felt insecure?

Page 3913

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I have completed my

4 cross-examination.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination, Mr. McCloskey?

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no questions from the Bench, which means

8 that your testimony ends here, sir. On behalf of the Tribunal, I wish to

9 thank you for having come over to give evidence in this case. Our staff

10 will assist you, to facilitate your return back home. On behalf of

11 everyone present here, we wish you a safe journey back home. Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just making sure that the curtains are put down

15 before he leaves the courtroom.

16 So now the position is, we agreed yesterday that, in anticipation

17 that this witness won't finish today, the other one won't be brought

18 over. In any case, we are adjourned until Wednesday of this coming

19 week -- next week.

20 There has been a further filing from the Prosecution requesting

21 protective measures for PW-98. I have cancelled it from my -- if someone

22 can assist me with the number. There is a fresh motion anyway for

23 protective measures for this new witness. Do I take it that we can

24 proceed along the previous lines?

25 Yes, Mr. Haynes.

Page 3914

1 MR. HAYNES: Yes, we can.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you so much. And tomorrow is the

3 deadline for the filing on the proofing chart. We extended the time limit

4 until the 10th. Will that keep you awake all night, Mr. McCloskey?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. I think because of those extensions, that we

6 are all relatively sane and you should get something. I'm sure it won't

7 be perfect, but a lot of hard work has gone into it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you so much.

9 Yes, Mr. Josse.

10 MR. JOSSE: Is Your Honour going to deal with the exhibits for the

11 last witness?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Thank you.

13 Witness 98, yes, not PW-98. I apologise to you.

14 Yes, exhibits, Mr. McCloskey?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. The pseudonym sheet, P02290.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That will remain under seal.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the 65 ter 220, which is that Bratunac Brigade

18 military daily order book.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In its entirety or just the page that -- I

20 think we can proceed with it in its entirety. It would spare us having to

21 go through it in bits and pieces.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And if there are any other pages that

23 someone wants translated, we can always request that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections from any of the Defence teams? I see

25 none or I hear none. They are both so admitted.

Page 3915

1 JUDGE KWON: I noticed it's 236 pages in B/C/S. Do we need them

2 all?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why he said.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, all of them.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No. What I would suggest is this: That if the

6 Defence want the translation of the entire document, it will, of course,

7 be done. If you're content with having specific parts of the document

8 translated into English, then we'll do that. I mean, it's --

9 Yes, Mr. Josse.

10 MR. JOSSE: My only suggestion - this doesn't, of course, really

11 involve my client - is that my learned friend now specify on the record

12 which pages in the original he wants admitted as an exhibit so there is no

13 doubt about it.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I think, if I understood well, even upon my

15 own invitation, it's the entire document that is being introduced in its

16 original language, that is B/C/S. Now, out of that document, only 21

17 pages have been, so far, translated into English, and that's because, for

18 the purposes of -- for the Prosecutor's own convenience and utility, I

19 mean, he only needed those 21 pages. Usually, the practice we have

20 adopted here is that if there is a demand from any of the Defence teams to

21 have further pages from that document translated into English, we'll

22 undertake to do that. If not, the situation remains as it is.

23 MR. JOSSE: Thank you. Your Honour, my confusion was that wasn't,

24 basically, the practice in my previous case. Thank you for explaining

25 that. Needless to say, for this exhibit, I've got no objection at all.

Page 3916

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

2 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, I was not aware that we were

4 talking about 237 pages. We just usually look at July. But it's probably

5 easier to go with the 237, from our perspective, but that is a lot of

6 extra pages that is --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But we are talking of a right here, and we'll

8 protect that right, if we come to that or we need to come to that.

9 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: The English translation, I believe, is from 30

11 June to about 20 July, and those are the main focus of the Prosecution's

12 case, of course.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But the rest can become relevant particularly in

14 relation to names, components of the units, and so on and so forth. But I

15 wouldn't involve myself in that. If there is a specific request from any

16 of the Defence teams, we will deal with it as it arises.

17 JUDGE KWON: One of the Defence referred to an entry from the 23rd

18 of July.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Any of the Defence team wishes to tender any

20 documents? All right. Mr. Zivanovic? Madam Fauveau? No.

21 I think we can safely adjourn, and I wish you a safe -- a happy

22 weekend.

23 Mr. McCloskey wants to stay here.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't really, but I do, again, bring up my offer

25 that I'm willing to talk for two minutes about what I think of that

Page 3917

1 witness and what to look for in other evidence and what other evidence to

2 connect with him. I welcome to hear counsel's two minutes on the witness

3 as well, for whatever that's worth. But, again, it's just an offer. It

4 may or may not be of help to the Court.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you take a position on this, what Mr. McCloskey

7 said, that he is offering to address us for about two minutes on what he

8 thinks about this witness and what to look for in other evidence and what

9 other evidence to connect him? Mr. Ostojic?

10 MR. OSTOJIC: We haven't consulted with all the parties of the

11 Defence, Your Honour. But, yes, we do take a position. If we want to

12 have a closing argument, we may; if we want to discuss every witness, we

13 should at the end of his testimony. That would be fair. Why this one? I

14 do have particular comments which, if the Court allows, I'd like to

15 address about this witness. I don't know that it would be the proper

16 route to take. And I understand the problems that -- or I think I

17 understand the problems my learned friend has with the witness, but I

18 don't think it's appropriate, quite candidly.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I think we will classify this as

20 pleasures yet to come.

21 With that, we'll adjourn. I thank everyone for having overstayed

22 with us for these extra five minutes. Thank you.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.50 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

25 November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.