Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4160

1 Monday, 20 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Everyone is here.

10 Yes, I see Mr. Krgovic has got new company. Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Josse, my

12 co-counsel, will be absent until Wednesday. This is our legal assistant,

13 Marko Sladojevic, who will be spending time in the courtroom until then.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And what happened to Ms. Wagner?

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Ms. Wagner is working from home.

16 She is doing some analysis.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you.

18 Mr. Bourgon is still not with us. The rest of the teams are

19 here. The Prosecution is the same as last week.

20 Good morning to you, Witness.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back. I hope you've had time to relax.

23 We are going to continue with the cross-examinations now. Mr. Haynes was

24 in possession of the floor at the time, so he will take over and go --

25 proceed with his cross-examination.

Page 4161

1 Mr. Haynes, good morning to you.

2 MR. HAYNES: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

3 Honour. Welcome back, Judge Prost. I'm going to try as best I can to

4 stay in open session, but, as you will appreciate, Mr. President, it's

5 very difficult with this particular witness.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I know.

7 MR. HAYNES: But we'll start in open session.

8 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-107 [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes: [Continued]

11 Q. Good morning, Witness.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. On Friday, you were telling us about the various statements you

14 gave in 2004. Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And according to you, there were two statements you made in

17 September, the first of which it was truthful and the second of which was

18 not. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. Correct.

20 Q. I want to move now to ask you about the precise terms of the order

21 you were given at the police station before you went into the field, okay?

22 A. Okay. Yes.

23 Q. And in order to remind you about that order, I'm going to ask that

24 you be shown a document.

25 MR. HAYNES: It's our 7D68 at pages 3 to 4 in the English and page

Page 4162

1 3 in the B/C/S. And at this stage, we will need to go into private

2 session, I'm afraid.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go straight into private session before it

4 shows up on the screen.

5 [Private session]

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8 Q. Now, you told us that you slept at the crossroads every night, but

9 did you remain in that position throughout the whole of your field trip or

10 did you move?

11 A. As far as I can remember, we stayed at that one place, from day

12 one to the last day. We would go out for a kilometre or two or three

13 during the day, but in the evening we would return to that same crossroads

14 to spend the night there.

15 Q. Thank you. You told us on Friday about running away when you saw

16 some dead bodies. Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes. I didn't run away. You have to understand this. It was

18 during the summer, and dead bodies stink. It was impossible to approach

19 them to see what it was all about. I had to stay away from them. But I

20 did see blood. I saw pieces of clothes. You could come closer to the

21 bodies and you could see all those things.

22 Q. How close did you get to them?

23 A. Not too close, because of the stench.

24 Q. Did you get close enough to see how many of them there were?

25 A. No, no. From a distance, I could see what I could see, but I

Page 4166

1 didn't come any closer. None of us wanted to come close to these bodies

2 because the stench was appalling, especially with the wind blowing your

3 way and bringing that stench towards you. And that was bad enough, let

4 alone coming closer to the bodies.

5 Q. And I don't suppose you got close enough to see whether, for

6 example, they had died from gunshot wounds or from shrapnel.

7 A. I wouldn't know that.

8 Q. Thank you. Were those the only dead bodies you saw during your

9 field trip?

10 A. Yes, the only ones. I saw those bodies there and we never went

11 any further than a kilometre or two. In any case, we didn't go far enough

12 for us to see anything else. This is all I saw, this is all I came

13 across, and I wouldn't be able to tell you anything else because I didn't

14 see anything else.

15 Q. And what about living persons? Apart from the group that

16 surrendered to you, did you see any other living people moving across the

17 terrain?

18 A. I did not see anybody else but the group that came before me and

19 my group.

20 Q. Did you see any fighting?

21 A. I didn't see any fighting.

22 Q. Did you see anybody shooting any weapons?

23 A. I saw what I saw, and nothing else. I only saw what happened

24 before my own two eyes. I didn't see anything else.

25 Q. Well, I'd like to see if you could help us with something you said

Page 4167

1 in an interview last year.

2 MR. HAYNES: I hope I get the numbers right this time. I think

3 it's 7D66, page 5, in the English and 7D70, page 3, in the B/C/S.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Kwon is rightly pointing out that if there is

5 his name we should go into private session straight away, unless, unless,

6 we have a guarantee from the technical staff that the document itself will

7 not be broadcast outside this courtroom, because then we can do it that

8 way as well.

9 MR. HAYNES: It's probably safer to go into private session for a

10 couple of questions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Let's go into private session.

12 Thank you, Judge Kwon, and thank you, Mr. Haynes.

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11 [Open session]


13 Q. Would you have said there was a period of 24 hours or more when

14 there was no firing?

15 A. From what I know, and for as long as I was there, it was during

16 the day. During the night, at least I know how it was where I was.

17 During the day, we were out in the field and then we would return to our

18 initial position before night, and we were there for a couple of days in

19 that place.

20 Q. Now, you told us on Friday that also you heard Serb soldiers

21 calling through loud-speakers for people to surrender. Do you remember

22 that?

23 A. Yes, I heard that. The 400 to 500 metres, as I said, you could

24 hear the loud-speaker in the distance. That's what I heard, because we

25 were all dressed in the same army uniforms, so I don't know if the

Page 4170

1 police -- if they were soldiers or policemen. We were wearing the same

2 uniforms.

3 Q. Was it just something that you could hear or were you able to see

4 people calling through megaphones or loud-speakers?

5 A. I could only hear it. I couldn't see it. It was too far.

6 Q. But could you hear what was actually being said by these people

7 through loud-speakers?

8 A. "Give yourselves up. Don't be afraid." Something to that effect.

9 Q. I want to see if a few other phrases jog your memory. Did you

10 hear anybody mention safe passage to the free territory?

11 A. I really couldn't say. As far as I know, I don't know. I didn't

12 hear it.

13 Q. Did you hear anybody say anything about a corridor?

14 A. You mean out in the field or just like that?

15 Q. Does the word remind you of anything that was being said over the

16 loud-speakers, the word "corridor" or "Baljkovica" or "Nezuk"? Were any

17 of those words said through loud-speakers when you were in that area?

18 A. No, I didn't hear of any of those places.

19 Q. Very well. I want to move on to the group who surrendered to

20 you. I think you may have already told me this, but in case you haven't,

21 they were the only group of people whom you saw surrender, weren't they?

22 A. Yes. It was the only group I saw, and I can just tell you about

23 what I saw, nothing more than that.

24 Q. Now, the man who carried out the executions, can we take it he was

25 somebody you didn't know?

Page 4171

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Had you seen him on the bus or in the field prior to the moment

3 when he carried out these executions?

4 A. I don't know. To tell you the truth, I didn't really notice

5 anything. I wasn't really interested. I wasn't really looking before

6 that or afterwards. Everyone left to their posts, so I wasn't really

7 paying attention who he was, what he was, where he was from. I wasn't

8 interested in that at all. What happened, happened.

9 Q. Well, had he been in your company very long or did he simply

10 appear when these men surrendered?

11 A. He appeared when the men surrendered. He came from somewhere. I

12 don't know which side he came from. He just simply appeared. Not just

13 him, there were several of these police officers. They suddenly appeared

14 there and -- well, there were at least 10, 15 -- well, more, 20 people

15 suddenly turned up. And I think the group that I was in, everybody in

16 that group saw what happened. What happened with the men who were

17 executed and what happened with the boy, everybody saw that. And this was

18 demonstrated by their statements that they provided afterwards. I wasn't

19 the only one who saw it. They saw it, too. I think they mentioned that

20 in their statements. At least I think they do.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, the man who carried out the executions, tell us a

22 little bit about his style of dress, would you?

23 A. He wore the same uniform that we did. I don't know if it was a

24 suit or like one-piece overalls or something like that. I mean, it was a

25 military uniform. Everybody, all the police officers, when we went to the

Page 4172

1 line or in the field, we would wear them. There were different police

2 uniforms to be worn when there were -- other police duties were being

3 carried out. These were military uniforms when you go out in the field.

4 Q. What about anything else? What was he wearing on his head?

5 A. A kind of band. Something. Something was tied. I can't really

6 remember. At least when I saw that, it all happened very quickly. Then

7 he suddenly disappeared again. I don't know who he is, what he is.

8 Q. And the group that he arrived with, were they dressed similarly,

9 with these bandanas around their heads?

10 A. I don't know. I didn't see if all of them wore the bandanas. I

11 didn't really look or I wasn't paying attention to see what they were all

12 wearing, if they were all the same. I wasn't looking at who was wearing

13 what at that time. I just know that he had one. I didn't really pay

14 attention to the others.

15 Q. But was he unusual in that respect, or did you see other people

16 who were dressed in this way?

17 A. They all were dressed more or less the same, not 100 per cent the

18 same. But we had uniforms from the army. Me and the soldiers were all

19 wearing army uniforms. We received the uniforms from the army so that we

20 could go in the field. We used them when we went in the field.

21 Q. Was this man wearing any insignia that could identify him as being

22 part of any police or military unit?

23 A. I didn't notice that.

24 Q. Did you look for it?

25 A. I did, but maybe it had the insignia on one side, on one sleeve,

Page 4173

1 and not on the other, and perhaps the way he was positioned, it seemed as

2 if he didn't have any insignia. Maybe he did have insignia on other side

3 but I didn't see it.

4 Q. Did it strike you that he was more likely to have been a reserve

5 policeman than a regular?

6 A. I really couldn't say. It's hard to tell, to distinguish people.

7 We did belong to the same centre, but each station had its own men and we

8 were all, more or less, the same in the field, as for performing our

9 assignments, so ...

10 Q. Did his style of dress, in particular the bandana around his head,

11 tell you anything about the sort of person he was?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Wasn't that fashionable amongst certain sections of your

14 community?

15 A. No. Everybody wore what they felt suited them. Nobody could

16 forbid anyone from putting whatever they wanted to on their head, I mean.

17 Q. But this style of Rambo policeman dress, wasn't that fashionable

18 amongst Chetniks?

19 MR. THAYER: Objection, Your Honour. He's had the answer to the

20 question. I believe he's answered it sufficiently. To suggest that it's

21 something else in the question at this point is improper, respectfully.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's Monday morning. We are in an indulgent mood,

24 Mr. Haynes, but this will be your last question on this --

25 MR. HAYNES: Quite. And I don't want to spoil the mood but the

Page 4174

1 adjective "improper" is quite a strong one, if I may say so. But there

2 you are.

3 Q. Witness, would you answer the question?

4 A. I say again: Nobody could order anyone else what to wear and how

5 to behave. Everybody behaved in their own way, the way it suited them.

6 If he felt that he was Rambo or not is something I cannot know. Everybody

7 imagines themselves to be something. I mean, I don't know if that was his

8 case.

9 Q. Very well. Now, can you tell me, was it your intention to execute

10 these men who surrendered?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: "Yours," you mean individually his or "yours" in the

12 plural, "theirs"?

13 MR. HAYNES: His, initially. I shall move on from there.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

15 A. It wasn't my intention about executions. There was nothing about

16 executions. As for my station, I mean, if we intended to execute him, we

17 wouldn't have brought him back to the station alive. When you think about

18 it, we all accepted him and there was no intention in that group or the

19 group from that station to execute the rest. Him, I mean, if anybody

20 wanted to execute them, we would have executed them; the people from our

21 station would have executed them. There wouldn't have to have been

22 somebody from the outside to do that.


24 Q. Well, I'm not quite sure what your answer is. Was it your

25 personal intention to execute these four or five men who surrendered to

Page 4175

1 you?

2 A. It was not my personal intention to execute them.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Would you have instructed anybody else

4 within your unit to have executed these men?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So can we take it, then, that you did not think that the order you

7 had been given required you to do that?

8 A. Yes, I didn't consider it -- well, first of all, I didn't know

9 where we were going. They said why, but there was the hope that, okay,

10 nobody will come in front of me, in the sense that there would -- nothing

11 would turn up, I would go through it without any problems, thinking that

12 this group would not appear in front of me and that it would all end.

13 Q. And why was it that you were unable to stop this man with the

14 bandana around his head from carrying out these executions?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I think this is an area where I have to

16 give you a caution, Witness. If, in this line of questions, you think

17 that by answering the questions you could expose -- you could incriminate

18 yourself in any matter, you can address yourself to us, as I explained to

19 you last Friday.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that I could

21 incriminate myself. I can answer the question.

22 You can just put the question again, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes, do you mind repeating your

24 question, please.

25 MR. HAYNES: Absolutely not.

Page 4176

1 Q. I asked you why it was you were unable to stop the man who carried

2 out the executions from doing it.

3 A. I wasn't able to stop him because I don't even know exactly how it

4 came about that even the boy stayed alive. It was a pure coincidence that

5 nobody took him away immediately, took him out of my hands. Simply, these

6 people just finished the way they did. They were killed, and he simply

7 stayed with us and the rest of my group. It was a coincidence. Had they

8 come to get him at that point, what could I have done? I would have had

9 to give him. But things ended up with him staying with us and that was

10 the end.

11 Q. With respect, Witness, you seem to be focusing entirely upon the

12 boy. I want to focus on the people who were killed, not the boy. How far

13 away from you were they when they were shot?

14 A. Some 5 to 10 metres away. Not counting the steps, but that was

15 the distance. Up to 20 metres, not more. That would be the maximum. I

16 didn't dare keep the rest. I mean, if I and the others saved one person,

17 we couldn't save all of them. We would have been exposed to problems

18 right there and then, and we had problems after the fact. All of the

19 policemen who did it, we all had problems. As for the rest, I personally

20 couldn't keep the others from getting killed, and I think that my group

21 couldn't do it either. That's what I think, at least.

22 Q. Well, I'll ask you the question one more time. Why was it you

23 couldn't stop them from being killed? Could you not have said something?

24 A. I don't know what to say. There was a large number of people

25 there immediately. Everybody was telling their own story. I mean, it

Page 4177

1 wasn't a case of everyone saying the same thing. Everybody had their own

2 story. I mean, there wasn't anybody that you could go up to and tell

3 them, "Don't touch them."

4 Q. So let me put something to you and see if you agree with it: It

5 was simply the question of the determination of this group of people to

6 carry out these executions that made it impossible for you to stop it; is

7 that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And how was it, precisely, you were able to persuade them not to

10 execute the fourth or fifth man out of this group?

11 A. It wasn't a question of persuasion. I saw the way they were

12 going. The boy was last in the line. And then when we came up against

13 these people, both of us stopped. We were surprised. It was our first

14 encounter during the war with the other people. And then we hid the boy

15 behind us. And then as for the rest, I was thinking, Well, he's a child;

16 he's the youngest.

17 I mean, I didn't really try. I don't know how it would have been

18 because I wasn't a commander or anything like that. I was just a person

19 carrying out orders that were ordered, so I didn't have any command on my

20 side. I wasn't even a platoon commander, because there was the platoon

21 commander from our station there and he agreed that the boy should stay

22 alive and should be brought back to our station.

23 Since I said that I had a neighbour who had been captured in

24 Majevica and then I thought perhaps they could be exchanged, it was

25 something like that. That's what the statements written at the station

Page 4178

1 were about. And it was more or less based on that, things proceeding in

2 the certain order, that was there.

3 Q. Did the group of men who carried out the executions not see that

4 there was another person alive?

5 A. They did see it, but they didn't come. I don't know if there were

6 more or one. There was one definitely, and they bypassed him. So when

7 they bypassed him, he stayed. So had they wanted that group that was

8 there, they could have done it. No one could have stopped that or said

9 not to do it. But it was luck that they left him. I wanted him to stay

10 alive and to be exchanged, if possible, and these people just skipped

11 him. He stayed with us, and that's how it all finished, until we came to

12 our station. But then that's something else.

13 Q. Now, you've repeatedly told us that you were unconcerned about

14 Srebrenica and what was going on there. Is that right?

15 A. Yes. I wasn't concerned because I wasn't in that area of

16 responsibility. And, simply, where I was, it was mostly in the Majevica

17 area because it was closer, that zone of responsibility, and if we went to

18 other places, these were then fields that were farther away from the house

19 where we lived in terms of the time and the travel and so on.

20 Q. I'm sure we can all understand that. And I dare say there are a

21 lot of people who lived in the same area as you who felt the same way,

22 didn't they? They didn't want unnecessary fighting or war and the like.

23 A. Yes. First I wasn't interested. As they say, I couldn't wait for

24 the war to finish. So I wasn't interested, even in Srebrenica, my fields,

25 my -- I was simply -- was turned inward, thought about myself and so on

Page 4179

1 and so forth. I wasn't a person making decisions about anything. These

2 were higher levels of authority that made decisions about these things.

3 Q. But were their people in the field during the course of this field

4 trip who were concerned about the Muslims of Srebrenica?

5 A. I think -- I don't know. I wasn't talking to anybody about that,

6 whether they were concerned or not, because --

7 Q. You didn't encounter any -- I'm sorry.

8 A. -- I wasn't interested. So I wasn't asking about it or talking

9 about it with anyone.

10 Q. You didn't encounter individuals who had some grievance about them

11 or some reason to seek out some sort of revenge?

12 A. No. At least that group was not a revengeful group. Everybody

13 there was in favour of preservation, getting home ungrazed, safe and

14 sound. This was something that was a feature of all our tours of duty in

15 the field. Everybody knew that things would stop one day, everything that

16 was going on will stop one day, and then again we would turn to life the

17 way it was. We were looking forward and not looking behind us at what

18 was.

19 Q. What about the group that carried out the executions?

20 A. I don't know what about them. They appeared at that point in time

21 and immediately disappeared. I don't know who they are, what they are.

22 That was the first time I saw them, and never again. I don't know who

23 they are. I don't know what happened to them later.

24 Q. Thank you. Can we move on now, please, to the man whom you took

25 into your custody. Did you search him?

Page 4180

1 A. Well, yes. He had a backpack on his back, a few pears, apples,

2 that he picked up in the forest, and he had some salt wrapped in a piece

3 of paper. This is what he had in his backpack, nothing else. It was

4 summer, so he didn't have a coat or boots on his feet. He just had a pair

5 of trainers, a T-shirt, trousers, because it was summer and hot. There

6 was no need for anybody to wear heavy clothes.

7 Q. Did he have any means of identification?

8 A. No, he did not have any ID. He was a minor. For somebody to be

9 obliged to carry an ID, he had to be 18. He didn't even have a health

10 insurance ID. He didn't have anything to prove his identity. All I could

11 go on was what he told me.

12 Q. Now, you told us at some stage you gave him some clothing to

13 change into. What clothing did you give him?

14 A. I gave him his food, the food I had been given, and later on I

15 gave him, how to put it, some clothes, a change of clothes. Some of my

16 garments that -- this is what I meant, an article of clothing, because he

17 was not -- he was messy. He had slept in the woods and, of course, he was

18 not clean.

19 Q. Did the clothing fit him?

20 A. I think so. I didn't ask him, but he did take the clothes. He

21 put them on, so I suppose they fit him.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Haynes.

23 We would be able to follow better if you first answer the previous

24 question that Mr. Haynes put to you. If you could be more particular with

25 regard to the kind of clothing that you gave him. Did you give him a

Page 4181

1 shirt? Did you give him trousers? Did you give him a pull-over? What

2 did you give him? It was an army shirt or --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave him underwear, let me put it

4 that way, civilian underwear.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So that, again, already puts it in a better

6 perspective. Thank you.


8 Q. Did you see him change his clothing?

9 A. No. He went down to a stream to change his clothes and then he

10 returned up towards us. I only know that I had given this to him. He

11 went and changed his clothes. He returned. I never asked him whether the

12 clothes fit him or not. I suppose that if they didn't, he would have told

13 me. He just put the clothes on that I had given to him and that's it.

14 Q. Just one other question on that. I mean, you noticed his face.

15 Did you notice whether he had any signs of a beard growing on his face?

16 A. No. He was a young lad, a lad of 16. He didn't have a beard, and

17 I suspect that he had never shaven, because at that age I don't think lads

18 start shaving. And I think he was young, he was a young boy.

19 Q. Well, you spent two to three days and nights with him. You

20 plainly talked to him. What did you talk to him about?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

22 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, just a note of caution. I believe we

23 are still in open session and we may be entering an area where we just

24 need to exercise a little bit of caution about identifying anyone.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you for that suggestion.

Page 4182

1 Witness, if you're going to mention any names, please tell us

2 beforehand.

3 Or, Mr. Haynes, if you're going to proceed from a generic question

4 to a more particular one or more specific ones, tell us and we'll go into

5 private session.

6 MR. HAYNES: Certainly.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: For the time being, we can remain in open.


9 Q. I'm going to make that question more specific. Did you ask him

10 any questions about what he had been doing in Srebrenica for the previous

11 two or three years?

12 A. As I was looking at him, I realised that he had not worked in

13 Srebrenica. He was a child. But we did ask him who he was, where he was

14 from, who his parents were, where they were at the moment, and he answered

15 us and I don't think he lied to us, because he was fighting for his life

16 and I don't see why he would have lied to us, at least there and then. I

17 don't see a reason for him to lie to us.

18 Q. He was 16 years of age. Wasn't it important to find out what he

19 was, as he could well have been a soldier, couldn't he?

20 A. I don't know what he was. In any case, he wore civilian clothes.

21 Whether he had worn military clothes before, whether he had carried a

22 weapon, I don't know. When we saw him, he came out as a civilian.

23 Q. Just so that I'm clear, did you or did you not ask him what he did

24 in Srebrenica?

25 A. No, I didn't. It never occurred to me to ask him what he did

Page 4183

1 because I saw that he was a child. It never occurred to me to think

2 whether he had carried a rifle. I didn't ask him. He didn't look that

3 way.

4 Q. What about anybody else with you?

5 A. I don't know about the others. They didn't ask him anything in my

6 presence. They might have asked him things while I wasn't there, but I

7 didn't hear that. I'm not aware of that.

8 Q. And they didn't tell you what they had asked him or what he'd

9 said?

10 A. Everything boiled down to his particulars, where he was from,

11 where his parents were, who else he had in his family. This is what I and

12 the others in my group asked him, in a nutshell.

13 Q. Tell me, what precautions did you take at night to make sure he

14 didn't escape or steal a gun and shoot you all?

15 A. We would handcuff him. Not me personally, but there were other

16 policemen who had handcuffs, and for his own safety, he was handcuffed and

17 tied to something. But as soon as we got up in the morning, he would be

18 free. He would sit with us, he would eat with us, and he would share all

19 of our activities. However, from the moment he surrendered, we didn't go

20 anywhere. We were there all the time. We were sitting there all the time

21 until we were sent home.

22 Q. And in one sentence, if you can, what were your reasons for

23 feeding him, clothing him, and ensuring no harm came to him over two to

24 three days?

25 A. That's how it turned out. That's how it happened. Neither I, nor

Page 4184

1 the others who were with me, thought that this would all end up like

2 this. We just couldn't leave the child behind. Only later on things

3 turned out the way they did. Nobody wanted to retaliate against him, none

4 from my group. And it just so transpired. He just stayed with us. We

5 gave him new life, so to speak.

6 Q. When was it that it first occurred to you there was a possibility

7 to exchange him for your neighbour?

8 A. Immediately, as soon as we singled him out. He was the last in

9 the group, and immediately it occurred to me that this could take place,

10 because he was the youngest and that he could be taken pity on and that he

11 could be exchanged. Because the neighbour who had been arrested was my

12 age, we went to school together, we were friends, and that's why it

13 occurred to me that there could be an exchange.

14 Q. Just one last question about him personally. Would you say there

15 is no possibility that the person you took back to the police station

16 could have been a 20-year-old man?

17 A. No. He told us that he was 16, and that's how he looked at that

18 moment. And I really don't see a reason why anybody would have lied to

19 us, why he would have lied to us, at least there and then, because his

20 life was at stake and I don't see how a normal person could tell a lie

21 when his life is at stake.

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. And that is how many?

25 MR. HAYNES: We better go into private session. We better move

Page 4185

1 and have a redaction as well, I think.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And I think we need to redact this last

3 sentence.

4 Registrar, please follow me. We need to redact lines 23 and 24 of

5 the page 25 and let's go straight into --

6 [Private session]

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Page 4186

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Page 4187

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, we are in open session now.


24 Q. When was it that you first told anybody about the van full of men

25 who arrived whilst you were holding this man captive?

Page 4188

1 A. We never told anybody. We all saw the van arriving. We all saw

2 that, all of us from our station and other police stations, and we heard

3 that the army had come to pick up the boy, and we all refused to turn him

4 over. People who were with us, people from Lopare and others, Bijeljina

5 as well. And as the time was approaching for us to go back home, all of a

6 sudden everybody wanted to protect that boy. Everybody was happy that he

7 had stayed alive. And even on the bus headed home, we protected him.

8 As for the van, I heard that they were troops of some sort, either

9 from Zvornik -- that was the sector, the Zvornik sector, so the army had

10 to be from Zvornik. I don't know why should they be from some other

11 municipality, because this was the municipality, and I don't know what

12 brigade it was, what part of the army came. Maybe they were a

13 paramilitary unit, or whether it was regular army under the command of the

14 army, I really don't know.

15 In any case, people came. We would not turn the boy over. They

16 did not stay long. They just left when they realised that none of us were

17 inclined to turn the boy over. And as time went by, the boy became more

18 encouraged and felt safer as a result of our actions, and this all lasted

19 until we all went home.

20 Q. The arrival of this van full of soldiers was quite a significant

21 event in the field trip, wasn't it?

22 A. I don't know whether it was full of soldiers. In any case, it was

23 a van with a few soldiers. I don't know. Maybe they were military

24 policemen. I don't know who they were. In any case, in such situations,

25 it would be the military police. I'm sure that somebody must have issued

Page 4189

1 orders for these people to come and take that boy, take him away

2 somewhere. I don't know where. We did not have an occasion to talk to

3 them and ask them, "Where would you take him?" We just did not want to

4 turn him over. The whole platoon was against that. And as time went by,

5 we just were more and more determined to keep him and to make him feel

6 safe with us.

7 Q. I'm going to try and focus you on the question I'm asking. You

8 remember you told us on Friday about the interviews you had in 2004 and in

9 2005.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And do you accept that during the course of all of those

12 interviews you never said anything about the arrival of a van full of men?

13 A. I didn't say that it was full of men.

14 Q. Full or not, did you say anything about the arrival of a van with

15 men in it?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: In that particular interview. I mean, we need to be

17 specific.

18 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: If you wish to provide him with a copy of his

20 interviews and then let him answer the question, you're free to do that,

21 Mr. Haynes.

22 MR. HAYNES: Certainly.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you. I'm not suggesting it.

24 MR. HAYNES: It's not particularly an exercise I want to go

25 through, but I'll see if I can approach it another way and finish at a

Page 4190

1 convenient moment.

2 Q. The first time you told anybody about a van full of men coming to

3 this area was when you were talking to Mr. Thayer in his office last week,

4 wasn't it?

5 A. Yes. I don't remember all the questions that I was put before I

6 came here and whether I mentioned that van or not. I suppose that nobody

7 actually asked me the right question to which I could reply by mentioning

8 the van. You have to understand that in my statements, I only answered

9 questions that were put to me and nothing else.

10 MR. HAYNES: Mr. President, that may be a convenient moment to

11 take a break.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll do that.

13 We'll have a 30-minute break, starting from now. Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes. We are in open session,

17 Mr. Haynes.

18 MR. HAYNES: I think that's fine for a little while.



21 Q. Witness, I want to continue where we left off, and so you

22 understand the purpose of this next series of questions, I'm asking you

23 about your meeting with Mr. Thayer last week and nothing else. That's

24 what I'm interested in, the meeting you had with Mr. Thayer, in his

25 office. Do you understand?

Page 4191

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. During the course of that meeting, were you given any information

3 that was new to you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you remember on Friday afternoon we looked at a document that

6 was a list -- that had lists of names on it?

7 A. Yes, you're right. I forgot that.

8 Q. So during the course of that meeting, you were shown that list of

9 names, were you?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And what did you understand the purpose of you being shown that

12 list of names to be?

13 A. Getting acquainted with that, how many of us there were, who was

14 there, because I wasn't present at the conversation. I didn't know how

15 many of us there were and I didn't know who, actually, of the

16 participants, was there. So that's why I got that paper, to look and to

17 agree whether that was that, to see -- to look at what was being shown to

18 me.

19 Q. Well, it was being pointed out to you that that letter

20 contradicted what you had to say about the number of people who were in

21 your troop, wasn't it?

22 A. Yes. Correct. I didn't know how many of us there were. I didn't

23 know the exact number until I looked at the piece of paper, and I didn't

24 know the names of all of the people. I knew, as we say, what I knew.

25 What I could recollect, that's what I said. Later, when I saw the paper,

Page 4192

1 then I refreshed my memory, and that was the purpose of looking at the

2 paper.

3 Q. So when you gave us the names of some of the people who had been

4 with you, you were able to do that because you'd been shown that list of

5 names by Mr. Thayer; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. And were you shown any other documents or information during the

8 course of your meeting with Mr. Thayer?

9 A. No. I was shown that document. I didn't get any other

10 information from the gentleman. Just familiarising myself with the paper.

11 Q. Were you told anything you didn't know before you went to that

12 meeting?

13 A. I really wouldn't know what to answer. In the same way that I

14 forgot the paper had been shown to me, I was more focussed on my to-date

15 statements, and this is what I was thinking about the most and preparing

16 myself for, in a way. As for whether there was something specific or not,

17 as far as I know, there was no other information provided, no.

18 Q. Well, can you help us as to this: What was it that happened in

19 the course of that meeting that caused you to remember this van, after 11

20 years and four months?

21 A. I don't know how it came about. In the conversation, probably the

22 question was put in such a way that I was able to say it. Before, I

23 didn't have such a question so that I would mention it in previous

24 statements. Through talking and the question, there was the answer that

25 there was this van. In previous statements, no such questions were put

Page 4193

1 for me to be able to give the answer that I did, that I was able to give

2 to the gentleman.

3 Q. So would it be right that something was said to jog your memory

4 about that?

5 A. Probably something was said, but I didn't remember the entire

6 conversation and what was said and what words were used and based on

7 what. Throughout the conversation, eventually this van was mentioned.

8 Q. By whom?

9 A. I don't know exactly. It was -- I don't even recall the exact

10 question, how it came about that I would mention it then. Had I had such

11 a question in a previous statement, I would have mentioned it. But this

12 question never came up, was never put in that way, for me to be able to

13 give such an answer.

14 Q. Well, we are only talking about an event about a week ago. I want

15 you to be clear with us. Was the van first mentioned by Mr. Thayer or by

16 you?

17 A. I mentioned it. I don't remember the exact question and how it

18 came about that the van was mentioned. It was in the dialogue, the

19 questions, additional questions. I don't know how the answer arose.

20 Q. Well, in fairness to you, you don't know what brigade the soldiers

21 were part of, do you, that arrived at the terrain?

22 A. I don't know. To be fair to you, I didn't know anything that I

23 could give you a more complete, a fuller answer. I didn't know.

24 Q. You saw nothing about them that indicated a brigade or anything

25 else.

Page 4194

1 A. I didn't see. I was in such a position then that I didn't see on

2 the side that I was standing at. Perhaps it was on the other side, but I

3 didn't see it. I simply didn't see any writing, nothing, on the uniform.

4 Q. And they didn't tell you where they came from.

5 A. No, they didn't. We didn't even ask them, because we assumed it

6 was from that terrain. That was the assumption, that they are from the

7 area, because I or any of my colleagues, at least as far as I know, I

8 don't think any of them asked who they were and where they were from.

9 Q. How many of them were there?

10 A. I saw just one. There was one. And then when these people came

11 out, then they started coming from all over, from all sides, to see what

12 was going on. I don't know if it was one group of people then, arriving

13 from different sides to see what was going on. I don't know. I don't

14 know if it was a group. But in any case, there was one man. Then when he

15 came, then they started coming from all sides.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

17 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I'm reluctant to intervene, but I think

18 we are now talking about two different occasions. We had been talking

19 about the arrival of the van and I believe we are now talking about when

20 the group of Muslim men were first encountered. If we are talking about

21 the same thing, if we could have the record reflect that. Otherwise, I

22 think we need some clarification here.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.

24 MR. HAYNES: I can deal with that, yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

Page 4195


2 Q. How many soldiers were in the van or got out of the van?

3 A. I don't know how many soldiers there were, dressed in military

4 uniforms. At least I say they are soldiers. I mean, they had military

5 uniforms on and were in the van. I don't know. I didn't count. Maybe

6 two, three, something like that. Two or three of them came out. Not all

7 of them came out of the van. They were just trying to see if it was

8 possible to take the boy away. They didn't all come out of the van.

9 Maybe two or three of them came out. It was night. You couldn't really

10 see everything. And this didn't take long. They didn't stay long.

11 Q. It was night, was it, not dusk, as you had previously said?

12 A. It was dark, dusk. It was the time when it's turning from dusk

13 into night, that kind of transitional period.

14 Q. And tell us about the van. Was it a big van or a small van? Did

15 it have windows or no windows?

16 A. It was a minivan. It did have windows. I don't know whether it

17 was military property or whether it had been mobilised. I don't know

18 whose it was.

19 Q. Did it have any insignia on the side of it?

20 A. No. At least I didn't see any.

21 Q. What colour was it?

22 A. I think it was green. At least it was night, so there was no

23 light of any sort for me to be able to see the exact colour. I think it

24 was green, something like that. It wasn't day so that you could identify

25 it properly.

Page 4196

1 Q. Now, the soldiers who got out of it, you spoke to them, did you,

2 at quite close quarters?

3 A. No, no. I didn't speak with the soldiers. The others who were

4 there spoke. They were closer to the minivan. I was a little bit further

5 away from the van, so I wasn't able to hear the entire conversation. But,

6 in essence, they had come to get the boy; that was the reason for their

7 coming.

8 Q. Did you or anybody else in your unit form the impression that

9 these soldiers were drunk?

10 A. I don't know. I didn't meet them, so I can't really say if they

11 were drunk or not. I don't know what shape they were in, in the car. I

12 didn't meet them. I didn't even see them that much. I wasn't there when

13 they arrived.

14 Q. Did nobody who spoke to them say anything to you about whether

15 they had been drinking or not?

16 A. No. All of the people who were there spoke with them, not just

17 one man, all of them who were there, close to the place where the van

18 parked. What they talked about, what questions and answers there were, I

19 don't know. I wasn't near that place, so I don't know what to answer to

20 your question.

21 Q. So you had no information from which you could form the impression

22 that these men had been bar-hopping.

23 A. I didn't have any information or anything about that.

24 Q. And just so that we are clear, you didn't go and say to the boy,

25 as you call him, that these were policemen who had been bar-hopping?

Page 4197

1 A. No. We didn't really talk about that at all. He understood that

2 they were there to get him. I don't know if they were drunk or if they

3 had been drinking and what they were doing. I don't know. Again, I am

4 saying that I wasn't that close to be able to know this.

5 Q. And so that we are clear, so far as you're aware, none of these

6 men who came in this van said they had orders to execute this captive of

7 yours.

8 A. Yes. No. I don't know what would have happened had they taken

9 him away. Nobody told me anything. I wasn't there in that place.

10 Q. Right. Witness, I'm coming to my very last series of questions

11 for you now.

12 MR. HAYNES: Mr. President, we are going to have to go into

13 private session for this.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session immediately, please.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

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Page 4198











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Page 4207

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15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So I thank you, Mr. Haynes, for your

17 cross-examination. We are now back in public -- in open session. And Mr.

18 Stojanovic, for the accused Borovcanin, will be cross-examining you next.

19 Whenever we need to go into private session, please,

20 Mr. Stojanovic, do alert us immediately.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. We'll try and protect your identity but I would kindly ask you to

Page 4208

1 bear that in mind on your part.

2 Could you please tell us what is the difference between the

3 regular policemen and the reserve policemen in 1995?

4 A. The difference was in the level of education. The former ones

5 completed training and the reserve policemen had private duties, other

6 duties, and this is the main difference.

7 Q. Was a reserve policeman an authorised person?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would a policeman have an official ID, a reserve policeman, that

10 is?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would they be paid just like the regular police force?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In case a regular police committed a crime or a war crime that

15 arose from their duties, would they be tried by civilian courts or

16 military courts?

17 A. I believe that it would be civilian courts because we were not

18 part of the military. We didn't have anything to do with the military.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

20 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

21 MR. THAYER: I understand that this is in the context of his

22 duties, Your Honour, but that bespeaks a legal conclusion I'm not sure

23 he's qualified to make with respect to war crimes and what the definition

24 of a war crime is.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But I think one has to take the question

Page 4209

1 in the same spirit that it is being made, I mean -- exactly, I mean, the

2 normal common parlance meaning that we are dealing with.

3 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, go ahead.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. The same question applicable to the reserve police force. Who

6 would be in charge of the reserve police force in a similar case, the

7 military court or a civilian court?

8 A. It would be a civilian court.

9 Q. Did you, in 1995, at the beginning of 1996, complete a police

10 training course?

11 A. No. I should have completed the course in 1996, sometime in June,

12 May or June, the latest.

13 Q. So in 1995 and 1996, until the moment you stopped working at the

14 Ugljevik police station, you had not completed the course?

15 A. No, I did not, and I joined that police station for that reason,

16 no other reason at all.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we go briefly

18 into private session?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

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Page 4210

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14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Let's try and establish the difference between the PJP and the

18 special police brigade. You've already spoken about that here, and you

19 believe that a special police brigade is an offensive unit, whereas a PJP

20 would just maintain the lines that had been reached; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Your superiors were from the CJB Bijeljina; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. As you have already told us, your unit did not have any functional

25 link with the special police brigade; is that correct?

Page 4211

1 A. As far as I know, it didn't, but I cannot talk about all the

2 levels. I believe that the respective chiefs did have some connection,

3 but we were at the very bottom and we did not have any connection with

4 them.

5 Q. When you were in Snagovo, you did not have any encounters with the

6 special police brigade, is that true?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask

9 to move into private session for the next couple of questions.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we will do that. Let's revert to private

11 session.

12 [Private session]

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Page 4214

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Tell us, please, you personally, who did you receive orders from,

9 you personally?

10 A. You mean in the field?

11 Q. Yes, in the field.

12 A. From the company commander. First from the platoon commander, the

13 company commander, and this is how it goes; do you understand? My

14 immediate orders came from the platoon commander and I believe that he

15 received his orders from the company commander.

16 Q. This is exactly what I want to ask you now.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at Article 4 of this

18 order. Could we please scroll the document down. Thank you.

19 Q. In paragraph 4 of the order, it states: "Upon arrival to the

20 Zvornik CJB, the commander of the unit is obliged to report immediately to

21 the leadership of the centre where he will receive concrete assignments."

22 Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, I do. I think that this applies to the company commander,

24 not the platoon commander, and the company commander then gives an order

25 to the platoon commander.

Page 4215

1 Q. If I understand this correctly, you would receive specific

2 assignments only in the field; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And these specific assignments were supposed to be issued when you

5 arrived at the Zvornik CJB; is that correct?

6 A. Well, we were told where to go. That's where we were stationed

7 and that's where we would get the main assignment.

8 Q. So at the time when you were leaving for Zvornik, you still did

9 not have a concrete assignment. Your commander didn't know what tasks

10 would be issued to you in the field.

11 A. Are I thinking of the station commander or the company commander?

12 Q. I am asking you about the company commander specifically.

13 A. No. At least -- well, we would be receiving all the instructions

14 from him once we got to the location, and he probably received these

15 instructions at the centre, from higher organs.

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 A. I don't know whether he knew it specifically or not. I don't know

20 who he spoke to, who he met with. Whether he knew or not is something

21 that's up to him. We received the assignments from him. He had to tell

22 us where to go and who to see. We just couldn't go like that. There had

23 to be some sort of instructions.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4216

1 (redacted)

2 A. Yes. The main centre was in Bijeljina. That's where we set off

3 from. We didn't stop anywhere. That's where all the people from all the

4 stations gathered. That was the main point. That's where all the buses

5 came, and so on.

6 Q. When you got to Zvornik, then you were given specific assignments;

7 is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's where we met up with our assignments for the first

9 time. We didn't know exactly everything that would be awaiting us until

10 we came to the actual spot.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to move into

13 private session once again, Your Honours, just for a couple of questions.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move back to private session, please.

15 [Private session]

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Page 4217

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Page 4218

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. I would like to draw the situation for you on the ground where you

6 were coming and then put the question to you. The night of the 14th --

7 13th to the 14th of July, the night before you came, the military column

8 of the 28th Division of the B and H army arrived at the outskirts of

9 Zvornik. It broke through the lines and captured a member of the PJP from

10 Doboj, Zoran Jankovic. Did you hear anything about that when you came out

11 to the field?

12 A. I didn't hear about it when I got there or when I left. I heard

13 about it for the first time here in the courtroom.

14 Q. I don't understand. Did you hear that from me or did you hear it

15 before?

16 A. From you, just now.

17 Q. Do you know that your assignment on the 14th and the 15th was to

18 take up the positions to defend the town of Zvornik?

19 A. No, I don't know anything about that. I'm not informed about such

20 questions and I cannot give you answers to that because I'm hearing about

21 that for the first time. I never heard about that over there or up to now

22 here.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to look at a

24 document marked as P00063 on the 65 ter list, or it's P00913. In the

25 e-court system, it's the same document.

Page 4219

1 While we are waiting for it to appear, I would just like to say

2 that this is a translated Prosecution document, dating the 15th -- dated

3 the 15th of July, 1995. It's a document signed by the chief of the

4 Zvornik public security centre, Dragomir Vasic.

5 Q. Can we look at paragraph 3 of this document, please. It states

6 there: "Sir, the direct protection of the town of Zvornik and fighting

7 with the enemy column on the Zlijebac-Zlatne Voda-Kula Grad-Maricici axis

8 are to be conducted by two companies of the Bijeljina PJP, one company

9 from Doboj and a platoon of the Zvornik company."

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Yes, I do. We were not informed about the situation at the time

12 that is reflected in these documents. We were not at all, at least those

13 of us who were carrying out those orders, were not familiar or were not

14 informed about the situation at the time.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like

16 to mention an intervention for the transcript. In the transcript it is

17 stated "in fighting with the enemy column should be conducted by two

18 companies." It's in the future. In the original text it says "is

19 conducted." It should be the present. This could also be connected to

20 the chronology of the events.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In order to see the general context, sir, I'm going to ask you to

24 look at a map with me.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's map 4, for identification

Page 4220

1 purposes, Your Honours, from the collection provided to us by the

2 Prosecution. It is marked P2118. And we received this collection of maps

3 on the 21st of September of this year. If I could please now ask for the

4 map to be put into the system. It's ERN number 05059899.

5 If you permit me, Your Honours, and if possible, maybe we can save

6 some time and put the map on the ELMO, if I can just ask you to focus on

7 this section of the map.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. Put it on the ELMO, please.

9 Don't forget that we are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic, please.

10 Mr. Stojanovic, which area do you want us to zoom in? Is it the Zvornik

11 area or --

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I can just ask for the focus

13 to be south of Zvornik. There is the term "Mladjevac, Kula Grad."

14 Excellent, excellent, excellent. Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: If we could improve the focus, then that is even

16 better. Thank you.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Sir, do you see this map?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. This is a map of the area around the town of Zvornik, and it shows

21 the dynamics of the movement of the combat column of the 28th Division.

22 Can you see where Kula Grad is?

23 A. Yes, I can.

24 Q. Left of that, can you see the settlement or village called

25 Maricici?

Page 4221

1 A. Yes, I see it.

2 Q. These are two toponyms that are mentioned in this order on the

3 deployment of your company, on the 14th and the 15th of July. Do you

4 agree with what is said in the order?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please look at this road leading from Zvornik to the

7 left. Don't be surprised if I tell you that this is the road that leads

8 to Snagovo. Can you also look at this red arrow marking the position of

9 the police, the PJP, and the crossroads that is there. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Red and then this black road -- yellow and then this black road --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Yellow.

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Would you agree with me that on the 14th, when you arrived, the

16 15th and the 16th, practically were on the outskirts of Zvornik in

17 defensive positions in relation to the town of Zvornik and in relation to

18 the column of the B and H army?

19 A. Well, let me tell you, I don't know how you all will understand

20 it. We didn't know what was going on before we arrived. What the

21 assignments were, what was happening before we arrived, we didn't know

22 that. We didn't even -- or at least I, myself, as they say, I didn't even

23 ever go to that area before, didn't pass through there. I was simply

24 there for the first time, as they say, in my life there, then, at that

25 place that you are mentioning now. Maybe I was even in that village, but

Page 4222

1 I didn't know what the name of the village was. It was not literally a

2 village. It was mostly a wood. And there were places like that.

3 Well, let me at least give you some explanation that I did not --

4 I don't even know myself how to tell you so that you can understand that

5 we didn't know, at least most from my station didn't know, where exactly

6 we were. We were told we were going to Snagovo. Perhaps we were in some

7 village before or after Snagovo.

8 You're mentioning Kula. Yes, it was above the town of Zvornik,

9 some 2 kilometres away. And we got to this crossroads where, as they say,

10 we slept and that's what I can say. That's all I know.

11 Q. Now, when you saw this order and when you saw this map, are you

12 going to admit that we are right and that those days before the 18th of

13 July, you were in defensive positions in relation to the town of Zvornik

14 and in relation to the column that was passing?

15 A. As for the column, I'm hearing about it for the first time here,

16 now, from you. I didn't know who it was, what it was. And we were not

17 even -- it was not even explained to us. We were not told in any way what

18 was happening. We didn't know anything about what you are documenting

19 here now.

20 Q. Now that you are informed about it and now that you have seen

21 this, can we agree that you were in positions on the outskirts of the town

22 of Zvornik and you were in defensive positions?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

24 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I believe he's answered this question to

25 the best of his ability, and this is not going to change his recollection

Page 4223

1 which, as recently as two answers ago, was that they were, in fact, to the

2 north of Zvornik and not in the area of these villages whose names he

3 testified he cannot recall to this day, and that he's hearing about the

4 column for the first time here.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree. Objection sustained. I think -- we think

6 that the answer has been already given to your question and that you

7 should not insist with further questions on it, Mr. Stojanovic.

8 JUDGE KWON: As to this map, I have to ask this question to

9 Mr. Stojanovic or to Mr. Thayer. I wonder whether the Chamber has heard

10 the evidence as to the foundation or origin of this map. I note this is

11 map 4 of the Krivaja 95 map offered by the Prosecution.

12 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I believe this map was referred to in

13 Mr. McCloskey's opening statement, and its origin is, as I understand it,

14 General Krstic's battle map for the Krivaja 95 operation. I'm being

15 corrected, Your Honour. I'll sit down.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey did actually mention this during one

17 of the sittings. He did give an indication what these maps were all

18 about.

19 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, this came from the Zvornik

21 Brigade. This is a Zvornik Brigade map indicating some of the activity

22 depicted in it. We will, of course, get to more detail on that as we get

23 to Zvornik Brigade witnesses who will fully establish it for you. But it

24 was a map that has been used many times and it's always thought to be a

25 fair reflection, as far as I know, from all counsel.

Page 4224

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No comments as to whether it's a fair reflection or

2 not, especially in the presence of the witness.

3 JUDGE KWON: So parties are in agreement as to the authenticity as

4 being a spontaneous document?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not sure what you mean by "spontaneous." I

6 believe they drafted it after the events, but --

7 JUDGE KWON: Drafted after the event.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think close to the events or shortly thereafter,

9 to reflect what their units had been involved in, is my understanding and

10 my memory of that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. However, at the present moment, unless,

12 Judge Kwon, you wish to insist on further elucidating this, but I think

13 it's --

14 JUDGE KWON: I think there will come a time when we will hear

15 about this map more in detail.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think for the time being we can just rely on the

17 fact that Mr. Stojanovic is trying to make use of this map. If it's his

18 intention, of course, to contest the authenticity of this map or the

19 exactness or the -- then, of course, you are perfectly entitled to do so.

20 But let's keep the position of the other Defence teams unprejudiced for

21 the time being until we come to deal with this and the other parts of this

22 set of the Krivaja maps. Thank you.

23 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, go ahead. We are in open session.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, I would like us to go back to what we were talking about

Page 4225

1 before. Would you say that I was correct if I were to say that in that

2 time period, the 14th, the 15th, the 16th and the 17th, you were not able

3 to carry out mopping-up actions because the deployment of your unit does

4 not indicate that it was a mopping-up action?

5 A. We didn't know the deployment, actually, until we were actually

6 located where we were. We went out as needed. We spent most of the time

7 the crossroads.

8 Q. That is correct. Only after the 18th, the 19th and the 20th you

9 could possibly have gone out to mopping-up actions; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. He told us that we were going. We got from him --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's redact straight away lines 21 to 23, and let's

16 go into private session and you can repeat your question, Mr. Stojanovic.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

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Page 4226

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22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to have a break now, a 30-minute break

24 because of the redactions. Thank you.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

Page 4228

1 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek.

3 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, during the break, I've consulted with my

4 colleagues and my client, and I would, with your permission, have no

5 questions of this witness because Mr. Stojanovic is going to ask a couple

6 of areas that I was going to. Would that be okay?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Permission granted, and appreciated too, your

8 position.

9 So let's go ahead, Mr. Stojanovic.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can we

11 please go into private session for the next set of questions?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

13 [Private session]

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Page 4229











11 Pages 4229-4248 redacted.Private session















Page 4249

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6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go back to open session.

8 Yes, Judge Kwon.

9 JUDGE KWON: Sir, can I ask you to take your memory to the

10 situation when you were informed by your colleagues of the mission to go

11 into the field in Snagovo. To the question, how you came to learn -- how

12 you came to learn that you were going to be sent to Snagovo, you answered

13 that you were informed, your colleagues who came to your place and that

14 you were going to -- into the field, and that you should pack your things

15 and go. You remember you said that?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE KWON: And after that you went on to say that, I quote, "If

18 you refused to go to the field, you would have to leave the police that

19 instant. So I didn't refuse any orders. I just went. The fact that I

20 didn't manage to do some things that I was supposed to do, that's

21 something else."

22 I'm particularly interested in the last sentence. I take it from

23 what you said at that moment you knew or felt or anticipated that you were

24 supposed to do something you didn't like to do or something illegal. Am I

25 correct in so understanding?

Page 4250

1 A. Yes, yes. You're right.

2 JUDGE KWON: But at that moment you haven't heard from your

3 commander that not a fly should escape. How did you know that at that

4 moment you were supposed to do something wrong or something you didn't

5 like? That's my question.

6 A. Yes. There were stories before we were going to leave for the

7 field, where and what and what was the reason why we were going there.

8 Before leaving, we talked amongst ourselves, like what, where. We were

9 just acquainting ourselves with what we would encounter.

10 JUDGE KWON: But today you said in your testimony that you and

11 your -- the intention of yours and your colleagues was not to execute

12 anybody.

13 A. Yes, it wasn't our intention, but there was the order and we were

14 going -- at least we didn't go with that intention. And as for the fact

15 that the order was not carried out, then there would be sanctions to

16 bear. That's why we were suspended from work.

17 JUDGE KWON: Could you tell us, in specific terms, what order you

18 heard at the time before you heard from your commander, not let any -- not

19 a fly should escape? What order was it?

20 A. That implied killing. What else could it mean when they said a

21 fly can't -- mustn't get through. Well, then a man couldn't either. I

22 mean, what else could it have meant? At least that's what I think. We

23 were already acquainted with what was going on there. So with that,

24 enough was said.

25 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, my question was not clear enough. I'm not

Page 4251

1 referring to your commander's order referring to a fly. Before that, did

2 you hear any order?

3 A. No.

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Judge Kwon.

6 That brings an end to your testimony here, sir. I, on behalf of

7 the Tribunal, wish to thank you for having come over to give testimony,

8 and on behalf of everyone, we wish you a safe journey back home. Our

9 staff will assist you with the travel arrangements to your home country.

10 We stand adjourned until tomorrow in the afternoon, 2.15.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of

14 November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.