Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4999

1 Tuesday, 5 December 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Madam Registrar. Could you

6 call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 So we are all here except Ms. Nikolic. The rest are all here.

11 The Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Nicholls.

12 I understand that -- rather before I give you the floor,

13 Mr. Nicholls or Mr. McCloskey - I understand that you have a preliminary

14 to raise - two things. Mr. Bourgon, has the joint response on the

15 protective measures being filed or are we going to have it today? Can you

16 inform us?

17 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Our understanding

18 that this response, Joint Defence Response, has indeed been filed and a

19 courtesy copy I understand was also given to the court officer.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. The other thing is this:

21 Yesterday, when we wound up for the time being the testimony of

22 Major Rutten, I asked him to liaise with the VW unit and also the

23 registrar, to inquire about his possible return. Could we have the dates,

24 if we have them, please?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. I've been informed that

Page 5000

1 Major Rutten will be available Thursday, 7 of December.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And can you go around that and reschedule your

3 timetable or your plan to witness --

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, that's perfect with us, Your Honour, and we

5 can work with that date, thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. And the understanding is

7 that the documents will be tendered when he finishes his testimony, all

8 right? Okay. So we have an understanding on that. There is, I

9 understand, a preliminary that the Prosecution would like to raise.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: Just very briefly, Your Honours. I have a little

11 bit of housekeeping before this witness comes in. In the packet, which I

12 believe has been passed out to you, related to this witness there are two

13 mistakes which we fixed but I wanted to alert everybody and I've told my

14 friends on the other side. Tab two, our index, the date is wrong.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me just follow you. Tab 2, where

16 is the mistake?

17 MR. NICHOLLS: The date column, it should be 27 July, not 26 July.

18 That's our error.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And the index?

20 MR. NICHOLLS: It should be on the cover, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Okay. So can you repeat, Mr. Nicholls,

22 again, please.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour, I'm sorry. The date for tab 2 on

24 the index should be 27 July, not 26 July.


Page 5001

1 MR. NICHOLLS: And we have inserted pages 00727972 through 7974 to

2 make that clear, and those -- through 75, excuse me -- and those pages

3 have also been passed out to Defence counsel.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for that information.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: The second error is that tab 3 is not in fact an

6 intercept taken by this witness, that's 65 ter number 1361. So I will not

7 be discussing that today. It's not his intercept. I'm sorry for these

8 errors.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: The last point is I wanted to just address the

11 Court briefly on our plan for future intercept operators. We want to have

12 an -- an abbreviated direct for these witnesses, as most of them will be

13 92 ter. And rather than have of them look at their handwriting for each

14 and every intercept - some of them have many - we plan to give them the

15 packet before they testify and have them check, and then ask then if they

16 have checked through the packet and ask them whether, in fact, the

17 handwritten intercepts in there are their intercepts, which they

18 transcribed.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that the -- a copy of the packet would be

20 made available.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. It would be the same packet, and we might have

22 them initial the pages they've reviewed.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you could also make it clear with the various

24 witnesses that they need to bring over with them the packet in case any

25 one wants to check.

Page 5002

1 MR. NICHOLLS: We will have the packet with us in court after

2 they've reviewed it in our office.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: And in addition, we plan to do an abbreviated

5 background direct with them and ask them, where they were working, if they

6 followed the procedures of that location, and then we will go into

7 discussing one or more of the intercepts but probably not each and every

8 intercept in the packet. That's just in an effort to speed things up with

9 the operators who were not in any kind of a supervisory role.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Are there any comments from any of the Defence teams

11 on this?

12 Mr. Ostojic.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. The

14 only comment I have, and maybe since we are in the housekeeping mode, is

15 that we would like to have a status of the statements that these intercept

16 operators gave to the Dutch authorities. A couple of them, I think, as

17 we've heard, are actually -- gave statements without obtaining a pseudonym

18 or any confidential status; others, though, did retain their confidential

19 status that we saw. It was similar to the DutchBat witnesses so I know

20 I've spoken to my learned friends a couple times about that, and we would

21 like to get their statements so that we can have at least a complete set

22 of information that these witnesses provided to all the authorities, not

23 just the OTP.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls?

25 MR. NICHOLLS: I think we are working on that. It doesn't arise

Page 5003

1 with the next witness but I believe we are trying -- I don't know what

2 stage we are at but we are trying to get all of those statements.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Please try to make sure that the Defence teams have

4 got as complete a picture as possible. Please try to ensure that the

5 Defence has at their disposal as complete a picture as possible before

6 each witness belonging to there category turns up.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure you will, thank you.

9 Any further -- any further remarks? None.

10 Let me just tell you what's going to happen today. We'll have the

11 first break as usual, at 3.45, and we will resume at ten minutes past

12 4.00. Then we'll break a couple of minutes before 5.30. As I explained

13 to you yesterday, we have an extraordinary plenary of judges, and we all

14 need to be there for, I reckon, I'll try to contain our presence for half

15 an hour. Then we hope to return here at 6.00 and we'll have the last

16 session which will run to 7.00. All right? So break at 3.45 and another

17 one at 5.30 or thereabouts. Okay. Next witness has a pseudonym and

18 facial distortion. Thank you.

19 Now, how long do you plan your examination-in-chief to last,

20 Mr. Nicholls?

21 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm hoping I can do it in about an hour and a half,

22 maybe slightly longer.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So basically we are saying that -- do we

24 have an indication from the Defence? I think we have. How long is that

25 going to last?

Page 5004

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Tribunal and also the Trial Chamber

5 I should like to welcome you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You are a witness brought forward by the Prosecution

8 in this case which deals with the events of July 1995 in Srebrenica.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Our rules require that before you start giving

11 evidence you make a solemn declaration that you will testify the truth.

12 Madam Usher is going to hand you the text of the solemn declaration.

13 Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

14 Go ahead.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat and make yourself

20 comfortable.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You testified already in Krstic, in the Krstic case,

23 and on that occasion, you were granted two protective measures, namely the

24 use of a pseudonym instead of your usual name, and surname, and also

25 facial distortion. We have kept those protective measures in force and

Page 5005

1 they will be applicable also throughout your testimony in this trial. I

2 take it you have been explained already what this means.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I also want to make sure that you are satisfied with

5 this arrangement.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls for the Office of the Prosecutor will

8 be summarising the testimony you gave in Krstic and then proceed with some

9 questions, and he will then be followed by the seven Defence teams who

10 will be -- which will be cross-examining you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine that you will be with us here today

13 and also tomorrow, and let's hope that we'll try and finish with your

14 testimony tomorrow.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. Could I have some help

18 from the usher to show the witness the pseudonym sheet? Could you please

19 slow it to Defence counsel as well?

20 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

21 Q. Sir, could you please just take a look at what's written on the

22 piece of paper you're being handed. Don't read it out loud but could you

23 confirm that your name is written on that piece of paper along with PW

24 130?

25 A. Yes, that is my first and last name.

Page 5006

1 MR. NICHOLLS: That will be Exhibit P02313 under seal, please.

2 Q. Now, the first thing I want to ask you about, sir, is your review

3 of your testimony in the Krstic case.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Sorry to interrupt you like this with

5 your very first question. I want to avoid confusion. In the confidential

6 Prosecution exhibits list intended for this witness, the pseudonym sheet

7 is marked as 2314, 2313 would be the testimony --

8 MR. NICHOLLS: You're correct, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: As usual. So let's, for the purpose of the record,

10 change that, all right? The pseudonym list -- sheet will be 2314 and not

11 2313.

12 Go ahead, Mr. Nicholls.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

14 Q. With the assistance of an interpreter, sir, who read it to you,

15 did you review the entire transcript of your testimony in the Krstic

16 case?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And you made the following corrections: On page 8798 of that

19 transcript, at line 11, "Srebrenica" should have been written as

20 "Srebrenik," and on line 13 of that same page, "Ranovici," should have

21 been written as "Banovici." And on page 8799, at line 3, the word "from"

22 should have been the word "until."

23 Now, other than those few corrections, do you attest that the

24 transcript of your testimony in the Krstic trial accurately reflects what

25 you stated in that trial, and that your answers would be the same if you

Page 5007

1 were asked the same questions today?

2 A. Fully, yes, I agree. I stand by what I said.

3 Q. Thank you. Could we go into private session, briefly?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that, please.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session].

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session, Mr. Nicholls.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: The witness has been a ham radio operator and

18 enthusiast since he was ten years old. From June 1993 the witness served

19 as a member of the intercept unit for the 2nd Corps, the EPD later known

20 as the PEB. He started in June before his official appointment. The

21 witness has assigned to a location where he was a platoon leader of two

22 squads. His rank beginning in 1994 was lieutenant. In the Krstic trial,

23 the witness discussed three specific intercepts. The witness in his

24 testimony recognised his handwriting in one of the notebooks used by the

25 intercept operators. This was notebook number 231, Exhibit 844 in the

Page 5008

1 Krstic case, 65 ter number 02315 in this case.

2 In this notebook, the witness recognised his handwriting for

3 intercepts recorded on the 2nd of August 1995, at 12.40 and 1300 hours and

4 we will be looking at those intercepts today.

5 The witness also recognised the printouts of these two

6 conversations which were Krstic exhibits 850A; 1392 in this case. And

7 853A in Krstic; 1395 in this case.

8 The witness also testified about a conversation between

9 General Krstic and a person named Mandzuka, recorded in handwritten

10 notebook number 103. That was Krstic P747, 65 ter number 1065 in this

11 case. That intercept occurred on the 2nd of August 1995 at 10.00 a.m.

12 The witness was able to determine the date of this intercept based

13 on his review of the printed copy of the intercept. Krstic Exhibit P862A,

14 which is 1389 in this case.

15 That intercept at 10.00 a.m. Was not recorded in the handwritten

16 notebook by this witness but by a different operator.

17 Going back to the later exhibit, intercept, from that day, August

18 2nd, 1995 at 1300, between Krstic and Popovic, the witness confirmed in

19 his Krstic testimony that he had listened to the audio tape recording of

20 this conversation in the office of the OTP.

21 And the witness confirmed that it was he who recorded this

22 conversation and transcribed it in his handwriting from the tape to the

23 notebook.

24 The witness recognised and recalled the audio tape recording which

25 is Krstic Exhibit P854, again 1395 in this case, as the conversation he

Page 5009

1 transcribed into the notebook and, Your Honours, with the Court's

2 permission, I will be playing that recording later on in the witness's

3 testimony.

4 That's the end of the summary.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


7 Q. I've got some questions for you now, sir.

8 It's correct, isn't it, that you reviewed in our offices a binder

9 with five handwritten intercepts in my office?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. You also reviewed the original notebooks containing those

12 handwritten intercepts which are copied into the folder?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You were able to confirm that the intercepts under tabs 1, 2, 4,

15 and 5, were all transcribed by you and you recognised your handwriting?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But you will also able to tell me that the intercept at tab 3,

18 dated 26 July, 1995, at 1537, was not in your handwriting, that was not

19 one of your intercepts and you did not transcribe that conversation?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we briefly go back into private session for

23 some background questions.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Sure. Let's go back to private session, please.

25 [Private session]

Page 5010











11 Pages 5010-5011 redacted. Private session















Page 5012

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]


20 Q. Now, sir, beginning the time after November 1993, how many men

21 were in the two squads of your platoon in the south location?

22 A. (redacted)

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop for a moment. I'm not receiving any

24 interpretation. I don't know about the others.

25 Witness, can you hear me?

Page 5013

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Could I kindly ask you to give your answer

3 again from the beginning because we were not receiving interpretation of

4 it.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, could I ask to remind the witness not

6 to say the name of the location, which I think he may have done.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But if he has, then let's have a

8 broadcast redaction. Okay? Broadcast redaction, because that becomes

9 important. We don't need to redact anything from the transcript.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: Perhaps I should ask the question again.

11 Q. After November 1993, how many men were in the two squads of your

12 platoon at the south location?

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Q. Okay. And is that the same amount of men who would have been

17 working in July of 1995 at this location?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I mean, we are going to get stuck if we

19 proceed like this. Already we have thrown away five more minutes because

20 the next break will be -- need to be of 30 minutes instead of the 25 that

21 I had planned. Let's go into private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5014

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

12 Q. I had just asked you the amount of men working in July 1995, was

13 that the same as you've just described, nine men in each squad?

14 A. Yes, on the outside, there were nine.

15 Q. Now, once these men became part of the platoon, did they receive

16 any additional training from you in their tasks?

17 A. Yes, of course. It's only natural for them, to be able to work.

18 They had to be given training for that job. True enough, these were men

19 who were youngish, but who had undergone training and who had taken

20 certain tests in radio amateur activity, so they found their way quite

21 quickly and learnt quickly so that they didn't need a great deal of

22 training. They simply needed to have the system and the principles

23 explained and they would adopt that quickly and they worked efficiently.

24 Q. And very briefly, as you saw it, what were your principal duties,

25 your most important duties, as commander of these men?

Page 5015

1 A. I understood my duties, or rather I never saw myself as a member

2 of the army. I never in my life thought that I would have to engage in

3 that sort of activity. These were mostly young men of the same age as my

4 daughter, so I saw them as my children, and working with them, I never

5 treated them as a senior officer or commander but simply as a friend so

6 that we would work together, and throughout the period that we did work

7 together there were any never any problems or excesses or any

8 unpleasantness whatsoever so that everything functioned normally. We had

9 a common interest in doing the job as well as we could. I also was

10 duty-bound to take care of supplies, with communication means, and in many

11 situations I had to repair certain faults on the spot, on the equipment,

12 and to make improvements so that we could work better so that there was a

13 wide spectrum of activities that I engaged in, and in addition to all

14 those duties as the squad leader, I also worked on an equal footing with

15 the others. I took part in shifts together with them.

16 Q. We'll get to that.

17 A. I was always punctual.

18 Q. Now, very briefly, what is your assessment of the performance of

19 the men during 1995 who you were working with? You've already said how it

20 was a very good working relationship but how well did you feel they were

21 doing their jobs?

22 A. I never had any objections to their work. Everybody worked very

23 hard, and there was no situation when we had any kind of dispute.

24 Q. How many shifts were there during a 24 hour period at the location

25 where you were commander?

Page 5016

1 A. Well, most often we worked in six-hour shifts. That is to say

2 four shifts over 24 hours. However, in situations when it was cold, we

3 would work shorter hours because we didn't have electricity regularly in

4 all our rooms so sometimes we'd cut the working hours shorter, but in

5 principle, it was six-hour work shifts, 6.00 in the morning, 12.00 noon,

6 12.00 in the evening, 6.00 p.m., that was the system of work.

7 Q. And during July 1995, were the shifts interrupted or were you able

8 to work regular shifts, full shifts?

9 A. In that period, we could work quite normally without any hindrance

10 and without any interruptions.

11 Q. Very briefly, can you describe, just so we get a picture, the

12 facility or the lay out of the room used by the intercept operators at

13 this location?

14 A. Well, since in the month of May 1992, this facility was devastated

15 when the army of Yugoslavia left, the then army of Yugoslavia, part of the

16 facility was therefore unusable so we couldn't use the entire building and

17 were therefore forced to place our equipment and the system in a smallish

18 room. We had a room where we stayed, sort of a bigger one, and, of

19 course, we had a room where we slept and we had a bathroom. However, in

20 1994, the facility was renovated so the other rooms could be used again.

21 As for the equipment, the system that we used for intercepts were

22 concerned, then we moved all of them into a bigger room, considerably

23 bigger, which made it possible for us to work normally. However, we were

24 not separated. We were all in the same room regardless of whether we were

25 in the smaller room or in the bigger room. All the equipment was there

Page 5017

1 and that's where the operators were. The operators who worked on this

2 job, that is.

3 Q. And before you and your men were using this site to intercept

4 communications, what had it been used for before? What was the purpose of

5 that facility before it began to be used by the ABiH?

6 A. Well, this facility was the main radio relay centre of the army of

7 Yugoslavia, from where it operated for the entire territory, radio relay

8 communications for meeting its own needs. I know that full well because,

9 before the war, as members of the radio club for at least 20 years, we

10 would go out to that elevation, given the approval of that army, and the

11 state Secretariat, that is where we had our ham radio competitions at

12 national level, international level. We had very good relations with the

13 people there, with the army there actually. So we knew full well what was

14 being done there.

15 Q. Now, besides the men under your command in your unit, were there

16 any other units present in 1995 working out of that facility?

17 A. Well, at that facility, there were security.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry we have to go into private session.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's play it safe. Let's go into

20 private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5018

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Nicholls.


11 Q. Now I'm going to start talking about the process of what you and

12 your men were doing in intercepting communications but first if you can in

13 a few words briefly tell us, and there is rather a general question but

14 what was the purpose of monitoring VRS communications? What was the most

15 important purpose or goal of there task you were engaged in?

16 A. Well, since at this south facility, southern facility, we had

17 actually been there for 20 years or so before all of these things that

18 started happening from 1992 until 1995. Both I and the rest knew full

19 well what this elevation can do for us and what we can get done there. If

20 you look at the map, too, you can see that it is an open facility. To the

21 north, south, east and west. That is to say there are no natural

22 obstacles. There are no impediments. So quite simply we tried to get

23 some work done there and we saw that it could work, so the point was to

24 intercept the radio relay communications of the army of Republika Srpska,

25 and that is to say that we organised our work accordingly and we did that.

Page 5019

1 It is a fact that we listened to radio relay communications and the radio

2 relay centre which meant that we were listening to the top echelons of the

3 command, high ranking officers. We did not go into lower-ranking units.

4 That's what people did at direct lines of contact. We weren't interested

5 in that. We intercepted the conversations of the Presidency of the RS,

6 then the command, and so on and so forth. So I'm talking about those

7 levels, brigades, corps, so on, those communications.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'd like to show you some photos now and see

9 if you can recognise them. And the first one is P02298. All right.

10 Just take a moment to look at that. You should have a photo in front

11 of you with the picture of some antennas on it. Can you take a look

12 at that and tell me if you recognise the objects at the top of these

13 towers?

14 A. Yes. Yes. I recognise the objects because I was there. Well,

15 this is not at the facility where I was commander. This is at the

16 northern facility. It's antennae actually. I see two of them that

17 actually followed the radio relay devices, the 800 ones. I see this

18 particular antenna that followed the communication at the level of number

19 1, that's considerably lower than 800. We can talk about that in greater

20 detail if you like. Then I see this antenna that was used for a different

21 kind of communication at ultra-short communications, two metres. What

22 should I say?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Nicholls, this is of no help to us

24 because he keeps saying this and that and this and that and I don't know

25 exactly which is which. So I can at least distinguish four antennae, if

Page 5020

1 not five, on this -- in this photo. If you could deal with them one by

2 one, please, starting with --

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have the help of the usher to show the

5 witness where the stylus is and we can just quickly mark the two that he's

6 talking about.


8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Start with the dish first.


11 Q. Could you move left or right and just mark a number 1 by the dish

12 on the left?

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. And was that one RRU-800 or the lower level RRU-1?

15 A. This was the 800 one. It's a parabolical antenna. I know that,

16 Siemens made. I know the factory. It's a professional antenna that was

17 used by the army of Yugoslavia at radio relay centres, everywhere

18 throughout the territory of the former Yugoslavia, and that enabled

19 communication between the radio relay centres of the military and that is

20 how they maintained their communications. This antenna consists of a pass

21 such element or reflector. It's the dish here. And in the middle - you

22 see that there? - that's the so-called illuminator, and that is where the

23 antenna is actually put. So it's a few curves that has a diameter depends

24 on the frequency. It's a broad-band antenna, from 630 to 960 megahertz,

25 from 630 to 960 megahertz.

Page 5021

1 Let's move on. The second antenna, number 2, was also used for

2 the same purpose. It's a professional Siemens antenna as well that was

3 also used for the same purposes, except that it's not as strong as the

4 first one. It is only natural that a bigger surface can take more

5 signals.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. Should I go on?

8 Q. Yeah, just a minute. You're going into a lot of detail, which is

9 good, but it's probably to some extent more than, at least, I can

10 understand completely. These two antennas, could they be directed towards

11 different areas in order to pick up signals?

12 A. Yes, yes. You can see here that one is directed in one direction

13 and the other one in a completely different direction.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you, now if you could move on to number 3 on the

15 right?

16 A. I'd like to move on to number 3 the one down here the red and

17 white one. You see it here? This is the so-called log period antenna,

18 the fish bone one. That's -- it's sort of a popular name because it is

19 vaguely reminiscent of that. It's red and white here but this is an

20 antenna that we used. I don't know. At our facility we also had these

21 antennae, since we didn't have enough material. This is actually

22 equipment that is used by experts in geometry. They are made of aluminium

23 of 25-millimetre diameter, and they can be used for making broadband

24 antennae too. When I say "broadband," I mean at least 200 or 300

25 megahertz. So it's not an antenna that receives only a single range but a

Page 5022

1 broader range. So it's RRU-1, and the frequency it uses is from 170 to

2 230 megahertz.

3 Q. Let me stop you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless you are also seeking in this process to bring

5 out the expertise of the witness, I would suggest that you direct him to

6 just indicate the aerial and the use for which it was made at the time,

7 without further details, because otherwise we'll never finish.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

9 Q. One question on number 3, the fish bone, was that one that was,

10 I'll say "homemade," one that was built by your units?

11 A. Yes, yes. We used it at our facility too. We made them. I

12 already mentioned that. I'm sure that they did it at this facility, too.

13 I know, because these are not professional antennae. They were sort of

14 make-shift antenna, homemade, as you said.

15 Q. And then if the next two on the right, which would be 4 and 5 --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: There are three on the right.


18 Q. Or 3. If you could mark those, sir, are those all RRU-1?

19 A. No. Perhaps the fourth one -- well, it looks like a fish bone

20 antenna to me, so possibly -- well, it's a bit blurred so I can't see

21 whether the elements are longer or shorter because that is what shows what

22 type of antenna it is. So I cannot say for sure, but antenna number 4, as

23 I marked it, that is a regular type antenna directed and it's not a

24 broadband antenna. It was probably used for a particular type of

25 ultra-short communication with radio stations emitting a particular type

Page 5023

1 of signal.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you. If you could just write perhaps in the bottom

3 left-hand corner PW 130?

4 A. [Marks].

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we capture that? Is that still part of the

6 image? Okay.

7 If we could go to the next photo, P02299.

8 Q. Very simply, sir, do you recognise this photo as another shot of a

9 couple of the antennas we were just looking at?

10 A. Yes. Precisely. But the picture was taken from further down.

11 That's what we were explaining a moment ago.

12 Q. Finally P02300. Again, are you able to recognise that as a photo

13 of one of the antennae at the northern facility?

14 A. Yes, yes. That's the same thing that a few moments ago we --

15 Q. Okay. If I could go to P02301? Take a look at that photo for a

16 minute, sir, and tell me if you can very simply what type of antenna that

17 is and if you recognise the location?

18 A. Yes. This is an antenna for working on RR-800. It's the same one

19 that I explained a few moments ago, parabolical with an illuminator, and

20 so on and so forth. This is the southern facility. This is no longer the

21 northern facility. This is now the southern facility.

22 Q. And how can you tell it's the southern facility?

23 A. Well, because this concrete holder of the antenna was used in the

24 former Yugoslav People's Army. That is where they placed their antennae.

25 I know the facility. I've known it for over 30 years. So I mean, I know

Page 5024

1 very well what this is.

2 Q. Okay. Could I have P02302, please? And that looks like there

3 were several antenna here sir but without explaining them all, can you

4 tell me where -- which facility these antennas were attached to, where

5 they were located?

6 A. This is also the southern facility. I just omitted to mention a

7 moment ago that this concrete wall is on the roof of the southern

8 facility, so there is this concrete belt all around it, where all these

9 antennae were. Now I don't know exactly how many there were but there

10 were quite a lot of them.

11 Q. Thank you. And the next one, 2303, please.

12 Same question, sir. Is that an antenna located at the southern

13 facility?

14 A. Yes. This is the antenna that was at the southern facility.

15 Q. 2304, please, the next one.

16 Same question, sir.

17 A. Yes. This is an antenna that was also at the southern facility,

18 that I made myself with my very own hands.

19 Q. And just briefly --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Give me one minute to discuss something

21 with my colleagues.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We think we can safely go ahead. Go ahead.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. This is the last photo of

25 an antenna.

Page 5025

1 Q. You just explained to us that this was one that you built yourself

2 out of -- it looks like a sign or something. Is that right?

3 A. Yes, you're right. Because since there was a shortage of

4 material, aluminium and what have you not, I used a traffic sign here as a

5 reflector for this antenna and it is a particular type of antenna, and I

6 did the calculations for it, and it was used -- well, I think that to this

7 day, it's up there at that facility.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. We can take that off the screen.

9 Now, you mentioned these antennas could be directed. Did your

10 platoon receive orders from the 2nd Corps in Tuzla which direction or

11 azimuth in which to point the antennas or direct the antennas?

12 A. Well, yes, of course, it's only logical; after all, we were a unit

13 of the 2nd Corps. We worked for the 2nd Corps. And it is only natural

14 that from our superior in the corps, the chief there and the commander of

15 the company, we received our orders because we did not know how the

16 situation was developing on the ground. They were following that and they

17 knew from which directions they needed information, and then, quite

18 simply, they would order us to turn the antennae in such and such a

19 direction, using such and such an azimuth, so that's what we did. And we

20 intercepted certain communications or rather certain conversations.

21 Q. And if you -- in July 1995, if you recall, which direction were

22 your antennas directed or which general azimuth?

23 A. In principle, throughout this period, from this facility, we would

24 monitor the area of eastern Bosnia where the Drina Corps was active, with

25 its subordinate units, and occasionally, we had some other directions, but

Page 5026

1 at least one of the radio relay devices was directed in that direction, so

2 that we followed what was happening round the clock, all the

3 communications that the Supreme Command of the Bosnian Serb army had.

4 If I need to explain what an azimuth is, it is an angle between

5 the direction of the north covered by the antenna, from the direction

6 north. So it's an angle when you wish to monitor a particular radio relay

7 communication.

8 Q. Thank you. And did your platoon also receive orders from the 2nd

9 Corps of which specific frequencies to monitor?

10 A. Yes. Naturally. But at my facility, it was my duty, and also I

11 needed not every day but every two or three days to take a receiver, to

12 review the entire frequency area, to see whether a new radio relay station

13 had cropped up. If it had, then I would report that to the command and

14 then they would decide whether any of them had to be monitored or not.

15 Because they were not in a position to know what can be heard and what

16 not, so they couldn't tell us in advance. Sometimes they would give us

17 orders. If they expected certain operations in a particular area, they

18 would say, "Listen in now," and then I would monitor that particular

19 direction, to see whether anything could be heard or not, and then, if it

20 could, I would ask them whether we should monitor it or not.

21 Q. In July 1995, were you familiar with the code names used for

22 the various VRS units in the area you were monitoring that you've

23 described?

24 A. I was not familiar with all of them, and this was not something

25 that I was particularly interested in but I still remember some of them,

Page 5027

1 like Domar, Prostor 99, I'm afraid it's a bit hard for me to remember

2 right now but in any event, every brigade, whether it was the Zvornik or

3 Bratunac or Milici or Sekovici Brigade, each of them had its own code

4 name, such as those I mentioned a moment ago. But after so much time, I'm

5 afraid I can't remember the names of each of those brigades.

6 Q. That's all right. I want to ask you now about very briefly about

7 the equipment you were using to monitor communications.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: And could we look at 1925 first, please?

9 All right. Take a moment to look at that photo and tell me if you

10 recognise that equipment, or perhaps not these exact electronic components

11 but this type of equipment, and if you can tell me whether this type of

12 equipment was in use at your facility, and, again, if you could just

13 describe what these three different pieces do very briefly and number them

14 1, 2, 3, so we know which piece of equipment you're describing, and you

15 could start with the largest piece, perhaps, on the front, towards the

16 front of the photo, with the big circular dial. Mark that number 1.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Okay. What is that piece of equipment?

19 A. That is a short wave radio receiver which receives and transmits

20 frequencies ranging from 2 megahertz to 30 megahertz. You can see that it

21 is a Kenwood brand. It is a professional piece of equipment used by radio

22 amateurs for their communications and also used by many other services who

23 need to have communications on shortwaves. True, when you buy such

24 devices, they have the other frequencies except radio amateur frequencies

25 are blocked, but it is easy to contact Kenwood and to find out from them

Page 5028

1 what you have to do to de-block the device for it to be able to receive

2 the whole short wave spectrum, to listen in and to emit. This is Kenwood

3 TS-450. I know that. You can't see that but that is the model. And it

4 is the device that we had at our facility and that we used in our work.

5 Number 2, here, is a radio device by the ICOM brand, R-100. It is

6 just a receiver. So it can only listen, and this device covers the

7 frequency from 30 megahertz to 1.7 gigahertz. So this was a device with

8 the help of which we listened in to radio relay stations which are from

9 630 to 960 megahertz. So this device covered that range.

10 And behind this big piece of equipment you will see a box which is

11 a mixer for a high frequency, from 630 to 960 to be recorded on a radio

12 relay device, and to be able to transfer it to the short-wave device, you

13 had to mix the frequencies and reduce it to 4 megahertz for the short wave

14 range and this device has one memory with four submemories, each of which

15 can memorise up to 100 channels and it can scan each of those memories

16 separately or all of them together, or only a particular number of

17 channels that we wanted to monitor. And as RU-800 had 24 channels, we

18 would deposit them in one of those memories so that we could receive that

19 radio relay station fully. The speed can be adjusted by scanning. So all

20 those 24 channels can pass through in two or three seconds. You listen in

21 briefly. If there is a signal, you can hear it, you hear a sound, you

22 stop the scanning, you rewind, and find that particular conversation, and

23 then there is a tape recorder which is not shown here, and that tape

24 recorder will record the conversation automatically.

25 Q. Okay. Could you just label the mixer number 3 and we'll be done

Page 5029

1 with this photo. Thank you for that explanation.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. And at the bottom, could you just write PW-130, your pseudonym?

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Okay. We are through with that one. I'd like to now show you

6 three photos of different recording devices and you tell me if you're

7 familiar with them, if they are the type you used at your location. The

8 first is 1926. That's not the number I had but we can go with that one,

9 if that's 1926. Do you recognise that? And I think we need to rotate

10 it 180 degrees. It is 1926. Do you recognise this type of equipment,

11 sir?

12 A. Yes. This is a tape recorder, the brand is UHER, and we used it

13 at our facility. We had several such devices.

14 Q. All right. Let me show you two more photos. P02306, please. If

15 we could turn that one around as well, please? Again, sir, do you

16 recognise this equipment?

17 A. Yes. It is also one of the tape recorders that we used for

18 recording conversations.

19 Q. And lastly, 2307, the next one, please. Same question, sir.

20 A. Yes. Again, it is the same type of tape recorder that was also

21 used.

22 Q. Now, the -- thank you, I'm through with that.

23 The monitoring equipment we saw, the Kenwood and the mixer and the

24 receiver and these tape recorders, very briefly, who maintained and

25 repaired that equipment as necessary?

Page 5030

1 A. There weren't really any major breakdowns but in my unit, there

2 was a small section of two or three men who worked on the repairing of

3 these devices. However, when it came to this mixer that I marked with the

4 number 3, I did that. I took care of it. If necessary, I did the

5 repairs.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Should we break now?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We have only got about two or three minutes left.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll ask one more question, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


12 Q. How many sets in July 1995 were in operation in the intercept room

13 at your facility? In other words, how many sets where somebody could

14 monitor and then record, using the equipment we've just gone through?

15 A. We had two sets for monitoring radio relay centres, RR-800. We

16 had one set for RR-1, and if necessary, we could prepare another set, that

17 is solely a receiver. That was more of a radio link than a radio relay

18 link. So we had a maximum of four workplaces. They were very close to

19 one another. So if there wasn't a lot of activity, one operator could

20 cover two such sets.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll have a 30-minute break. That

23 means we'll resume at 4.15. Thank you.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

Page 5031

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are proceeding with this sitting, as you would

2 have noticed, invoking Rule 15 bis. Judge Stole cannot be with us, at

3 least until the next session at 6.00. So let's proceed. Thank you.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. All right. We were talking about the sets in July 1995. You had

6 two sets for monitoring radio relays -- centres RR-800. Was there a

7 difference in the types of units of the VRS which used RR-800 as opposed

8 to RRU-1? In other words, did a certain type of unit use one or other

9 system?

10 A. Yes, yes. Usually they would have one system -- one or other

11 system. They always had RRU-800 at their disposal. That is the higher

12 level units, whereas the lower level units frequently used RRU-1.

13 Q. All right. Now I'd like to move on to the topic of how the men in

14 your platoon actually intercepted and recorded conversations from your

15 location. And you already started telling us about this, how the men

16 would -- when they heard a signal, would stop the scanning process and

17 turn back to get to the channel they had heard. Could you briefly take us

18 step by step through the process of what happens when an intercept

19 operator detects a conversation in his headphones as he's scanning the

20 airwaves?

21 A. Yes, let me continue. From the moment when during scanning you

22 would hear a sound in the headphones or the loud-speaker, because the

23 operators had headphones which they could wear to hear better, they would

24 stop the scanning, they would wind back to -- buy two or three channels to

25 find the channel on which the conversation is, and automatically they

Page 5032

1 would switch on the tape recorder and start the recording. There is a

2 button which says "pause," so you just de-block the pause button by

3 pressing it and then the tape recorder automatically records that

4 particular conversation. Once the conversation has been recorded,

5 depending on whether there are more conversations on that same frequency

6 or not, the operator sometimes couldn't and sometimes it wasn't necessary

7 for him to immediately transcribe that conversation from the tape to the

8 notebook. If it was urgent, then one of us, who was free, who could take

9 over that part of the job, that is if it was urgent, the transcript could

10 be done immediately and then it would be forwarded on. If it wasn't

11 urgent, then the operator at the end of his shift would plan an hour or

12 two at the end of his working hours to transcribe the conversations that

13 we had decided to send to the corps command. We didn't send all of them

14 because many were insignificant, irrelevant. They didn't require

15 processing. So we didn't even make a record of such conversations. But

16 one such a conversation is transcribed from the tape recorder to the

17 notebook, then it would be retyped from the notebook on a computer. This

18 would usually be done by the same operator or we also had an assistant who

19 preferred to work with a computer and he would type out the conversation,

20 and then this would be sent on to the command and -- for further

21 processing.

22 Q. All right. We will talk about that in a minute. Thank you for

23 explaining that. When the intercept operator began to listen to a

24 conversation and tape record it, would he write anything down immediately

25 on a piece of paper?

Page 5033

1 A. If it wasn't necessary or if he couldn't immediately transcribe

2 it, then the operator would write down in a notebook or on a piece of

3 paper which conversations he would later transcribe from the tape so as to

4 make sure not to forget, and so as to avoid anyone else having to listen

5 to the whole tape again. That was the normal procedure.

6 Q. Okay. Very briefly, which types of conversations would be deemed

7 insignificant and irrelevant? If you could just describe a little bit

8 what you mean by that?

9 A. Sometimes somebody would be just inquiring about somebody else.

10 It's hard for me to remember anything specific, but this -- these were

11 conversations that didn't affect any kind of operations, material supplies

12 or anything of importance. Sometimes those people had the need to

13 exchange certain personal information. Sometimes we would listen to their

14 conversations with their family members, their wives and so on. In most

15 cases, we didn't consider such conversations to be significant as they

16 were not linked to combat operations.

17 Q. When you were listening - you personally - to conversations, how

18 would you try to identify the speakers?

19 A. If a conversation flowed, the VRS officer would usually introduce

20 himself. When he's asking for somebody from an operator or to be

21 connected to someone, he would usually introduce himself, and this can be

22 seen from the notebooks or by listening to the conversations. Then during

23 the conversation too, they often addressed themselves, each other, by

24 name. However, if we didn't start to tape from the beginning of the

25 conversation and we were not certain of the voice modulation and we

Page 5034

1 couldn't recognise the voice, then we would mark those participants with

2 numbers, 1, 2, or give them some other sign, but mostly it was numbers.

3 They were participants 1 and 2 which meant that we weren't sure who they

4 were.

5 Q. And you said in your answer just now, if we couldn't recognise a

6 voice, were there some voices of officers that you could recognise by your

7 experience of doing this work and listening to many conversations?

8 A. Well, yes, naturally. If you hear someone dozens of times, then

9 you will remember his voice. I'm not a phonetics expert but when some

10 of my friends call me, they don't have to introduce themselves. I know

11 by the colour of their voice who they are, and each one of us knows that

12 from experience. So we knew a large number of officers by their voices.

13 We knew exactly who they were without them having to introduce

14 themselves.

15 Q. Now, when these tapes were filled, what happened to the tapes used

16 on the UHER recording machine?

17 A. Once a tape was full, it would be replaced by a new one on the

18 tape recorder. The tape would be put aside until the shift, when the

19 company commander came with the next shift, then the full tape would be

20 carried to the corps command where I assume it may have been listened to

21 again, at least that was the explanation I was given and the other men,

22 and then the tape would be deleted and it would be brought back by the

23 next shift to our location. And we always had several tapes in reserve

24 for us to be able to work normally.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go into private session for one question?

Page 5035

1 Private session for one moment, please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]


15 Q. Okay. I just want to ask you a few questions now about the

16 process of transcription of the tapes into the notebooks. You started to

17 talk about that, how if it was urgent it would be transcribed right away

18 and, if not urgent, the operator would do it towards the end of his

19 shift.

20 How would you deal with parts of a tape which were difficult to

21 understand? If the sound quality was not good, what would you do?

22 A. If the person who is transcribing the conversation from the tape

23 to the notebook is unable to decipher it himself, then the rest of us

24 would help, and several of us would listen to that part of the

25 conversation to be able to decipher that word or several words. If we

Page 5036

1 failed to find out what was said, then we would put down "unrecognisable"

2 or "there is a disturbance," and radio Paket communications, when they

3 have contact among themselves, they would cause a disturbance and this was

4 heard in the receiver. So it could cover a word or two, and then we

5 would put down that we cannot decipher a word or we have disturbances due

6 to these Paket communications. We never allowed ourselves to write down

7 a word that we guessed at, unless we really could understand what was

8 said.

9 Q. Thank you. And how many times would you listen to the tape, if

10 you had to, to make sure that the transcription was accurate?

11 A. Sometimes we would try up to ten times, and if we failed, then we

12 would ask someone else to help. And if we just couldn't find out what was

13 said, then we would just write down what I just said. So many times we

14 would re-listen to the tape.

15 Q. How many notebooks were in use at any given time during July 1995?

16 In other words, we have talked about the different operating stations but

17 how many notebooks were there in the room that were being used?

18 A. Usually only two notebooks would be used because there were only

19 two operators working in a shift. But we always had several notebooks in

20 reserve as well. If there was a need for more notes, if there was a lot

21 of activity in a certain period of time, then we would use as many as were

22 necessary but as a rule there were two that were active. Once one was

23 filled, it would be replaced by another one and put aside until next

24 shift, together with the tapes, and taken to the corps.

25 Q. Without saying his name, would the same person who picked up the

Page 5037

1 tapes pick up the books?

2 A. Yes, yes. The same person. When there was a change of shift,

3 that is what that person did.

4 Q. Now, you also started talking about how after the conversations

5 had been transcribed into a notebook it would be typed up on to the

6 computer and I think you said usually by the intercept operator had

7 transcribed the conversation. During this process of typing the intercept

8 or the conversation into the computer, were any edits made at that stage

9 or is that really just typing what is in the notebooks?

10 A. As far as I know, what was in the notebook would be typed out. I

11 never noticed that any one of the operators had sent a different text or a

12 text in a different form from the one in which it had been written down.

13 There may have been a change of letter but this mustn't or couldn't change

14 the meaning of the sentence.

15 Q. Very briefly, when these encrypted reports, the conversations were

16 sent to the 2nd Corps, can you tell me what method, very briefly, of

17 encryption that was? How was it so that it could not be intercepted?

18 A. I've already mentioned the radio or rather the Paket radio, our

19 repeater centre, which means that there is an antenna, a radio

20 transmitter, and the frequency is between 400 -- 140 and 150 megahertz,

21 because we worked with those. Then a modem or interface which adapts the

22 radio transmitter to the computer, and then the computer had its own

23 software for zipping this information and sending it to the command of the

24 2nd Corps, to another computer there. So it was this Paket communication

25 as it was called because it is actually computers that are communicating

Page 5038

1 and sending brief information, so this brief information, which is called

2 a Paket anywhere in the world, and we called it that, too, and then one

3 computer sends it to another computer through this communication link, and

4 then the computer either confirms that it was received or not, and then it

5 has to be repeated, if necessary. So that's why it's called Pakets, and

6 this information is sent between two computers by way of these small

7 packets that are encrypted, protected, by a system supported by the

8 software we had in the computer itself. We as operators did not really

9 talk. This was digital communication, encrypted.

10 Q. And you said these were sent towards the end of shifts but how

11 often during a day or during a shift, say, would transmissions be sent,

12 just at the end or at intervals, if you can describe that?

13 A. Well, if it wasn't urgent, if there weren't any major combat

14 actions taking place, if we didn't have to send something straight away,

15 usually we would send it at the end of our shift. However, if there was

16 combat activity or something else, then we would record something and send

17 it further on as fast as possible. If there would be a forward command

18 post then we would send it directly to the forward command post. If not,

19 then we would send it directly to the corps command, and, of course, they

20 acted at their own discretion.

21 Q. Thank you. All right. I'd now like to change topics - that's the

22 end of the general description - and talk about some specific intercepts.

23 I'll start off with tab 1 of the notebook we have. This is an intercept

24 with 65 ter number 1138. And I'd like to, if we could, begin with the

25 B/C/S of the notebook, which I think is 1138E on our list. And we can do

Page 5039

1 this in Sanction which may be simpler because of all the letters and

2 subparts these intercepts have.

3 Now, I think this is okay for open session, although it shows the

4 witness's handwriting. There is no identifying information.

5 Now, starting, sir, in the middle of this page, 01077916, starting

6 at the number 740.000, do you recognise your handwriting on the rest of

7 this page?

8 A. Yes. This is my handwriting.

9 Q. Is this an intercept that you monitored and recorded or one that

10 you just transcribed, if you know?

11 A. No, no. Nobody else would have written up a conversation that I

12 had intercepted. Every conversation I intercepted I wrote up myself.

13 Q. Okay. And I think this is pretty obvious but here you've

14 identified the speakers as 1 and 2. Based on what you said before, that's

15 because you didn't know the names of the speakers; is that right? At

16 least as you began writing.

17 A. Yes, yes. That's quite right. Because it was actually emphasised

18 here that the conversation did not start from the very beginning, so these

19 were interlocutors who I could not recognise.

20 Q. And we'll see that if we can -- can we put the English up next to

21 it? Is that possible? What we've got there now on the right is the

22 translation of the printout but it's the same conversation.

23 Just so it's clear what you've just said, we can see on the

24 English on the right next to an asterisk is written, "not from the

25 beginning." I noticed by speaker 2, in your handwritten transcription in

Page 5040

1 the notebook you've drawn just lines rather than any conversation. Does

2 that indicate that you couldn't hear what the person was saying?

3 A. Well, yes. I mean, I think it's in the second paragraph here that

4 I wrote, "You cannot hear it." That's what I said, inaudible, you cannot

5 hear it, number 2. And that is why it was marked here at the very outset

6 that you could not hear number 2. And then further on I just put these

7 little lines so there was nothing to be heard. I mean, I couldn't

8 identify the text.

9 Q. Thank you. And it's on both the B/C/S version on the left and on

10 English on the right but just so we know you've written the number

11 740.000. That refers to the frequency; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. That means that it's a frequency of 740 megahertz, so it is

13 RRU-800. That is the device used.

14 Q. Okay. And then on the right, this is also fairly obvious but

15 you've written "1445." What does that signify?

16 A. 1445 signifies the time when we started intercepting that

17 conversation, the moment when the tape was turned on, on the recording,

18 when the scanning ended.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Now, if we could go back one page on the notebook

21 to 7915. I don't know if we can do that in Sanction.

22 Apparently we can't bring that up in Sanction. If I could put the

23 original notebook on the screen, I'd like to go back one page.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Nicholls.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: I apologise for that, if we could put this on the

Page 5041

1 ELMO. Could you just bring it down a little bit so we can see the ERN

2 number? If we could get the whole -- yeah, if it's possible to get the

3 whole page, pull it out a little bit. Okay. Thank you.

4 Q. First of all, sir, you can look at the book on your right it might

5 be more easy, but do you see the date written there, 13 July, 1995?

6 A. I see it. It's on the right-hand side.

7 Q. All right. If you could just turn the page to 7916, and there we

8 see the intercept which you transcribed, correct?

9 A. Yes, yes. I see that.

10 Q. I just want to ask you, this date of 13 July 1995, on the previous

11 page, is that related in any way to your intercept that you've transcribed

12 at 1445 on the next page of the book?

13 A. Yes, yes. That's the date. As you leaf through this notebook,

14 you can see exactly what are the dates involved, although there weren't

15 regular entries on every particular day.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm finished with that. Now, if we can go back to

18 the same printout, please, and actually if we could not broadcast this, we

19 shouldn't broadcast the English. We actually shouldn't translate the

20 either the B/C/S or the English outside the courtroom. I can -- I'm told

21 we can do that.

22 Q. All right. Now I think this is fairly self explanatory, but the

23 top heading, but underneath report, the information, could you very, very

24 briefly just tell us what those different pieces of information mean?

25 You've already explained the frequency and the time. Let me start with at

Page 5042

1 the top it says, RM number 3, in English, and we can blow that up to make

2 it easier, hopefully, for you to read. Would it be better if I gave you a

3 hard copy? Okay. Are you able to read that, sir, where it starts off

4 "zona 2"?

5 A. It says, after "zona 2," RM number 3, radio network number 3. And

6 then this is IC, ICOM, R-100, plus ICOM, R-71 E. That's a type of

7 receiver and transmitter. And then RRU-800 is the radio relay network

8 that was intercepted. And then the azimuth is 180, the frequency 740.

9 02 K means the second channel. I already mentioned that the RRU-800

10 system involves 24 channels so this particular conversation was recorded

11 on the second channel out of the 24. And the time was 1445.

12 Q. And then you've written, participants 1, question mark, and then

13 2, and then in parentheses, Zoran?

14 A. Well, yes, that's what's written here. I'd like to see the

15 transcript in its entirety because probably at the end, the participant

16 mentioned his own name or the other one called him by his name. Had I

17 known I wouldn't have written number 2. I would have immediately written

18 Zoran.

19 Q. Okay. So we'll go to the second page of the transcript, please.

20 And if we can blow up the very bottom line?

21 A. Yes. It says so very nicely. "Okay, Zoki, bye." Zoki is a

22 nickname for Zoran, a shorter version of Zoran. It couldn't be any other

23 way.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. You're welcome.

Page 5043

1 Q. I'm almost done with this one but if we could -- this is I'm

2 sorry, slightly complicated, Your Honour. If we could go to the B/C/S

3 from the notebook? And if we could also have the B/C/S of this version of

4 the transcript, of the printout? All right, sir, and if you -- this is

5 something we talked about earlier in my office. The section blown up from

6 the notebook is missing from the printout in B/C/S on the right, if we

7 look at the bottom of page 7582 and the top of page 7583, we can see that

8 that section ending at "predaju," is not there. Now, if we could go to

9 this version on the right of the printout, which we looked at earlier, the

10 passage is included. If you know, can you tell me, tell us, why the

11 blown-up passage did not appear on the section we looked at -- at the

12 printout we looked at just a moment ago and does appear on this printout?

13 If you know.

14 A. I assume, as I can see in the way it was printed, that this must

15 be a very old computer, and when the pages were turned over, there must

16 have been this error that occurred. That is my assumption, that that was

17 the reason. Whereas here you have the complete text.

18 Q. Thank you. Okay. If we could -- I'm not going to go over the

19 intercept at tab 2 in any detail. Could we go to tab 4?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

21 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just like to know

22 the missing part that he referred to that was on the B/C/S on the screen.

23 Can we have exactly where it begins in English and where it ends? The

24 missing part that was on the screen.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good point.

Page 5044

1 Mr. Nicholls?

2 MR. NICHOLLS: So if we can bring the English up? It's starting

3 at the bottom of page 1 of the English, I believe, going through on the

4 top of page 2, to just above, "Well, they reckon that there are about more

5 than a thousand of them."

6 And I can't be completely specific, I'm sorry, it starts in the

7 B/C/S again at "predaju," that is where it starts.

8 JUDGE KWON: Why is this page different from ours? Our page 2

9 starts with the word, "the spot."

10 MR. NICHOLLS: That's correct. That's what --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And what we see on the screen, on the monitor, is

12 two further lines down, yeah.

13 JUDGE KWON: The monitor starts with --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In which?

15 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, it's because we are using a

16 revised translation. It should be in your packets.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, there is more than one translation.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah, it's the revised translation, Your Honour.

19 It should read 03204609 ET 2/revised translation.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No. That makes it more confusing. We do have more

21 than one translation, it seems.

22 JUDGE KWON: The first translation is the translation of the

23 notebook. And this is the translation of the report.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, it should be the revised translation of the

25 report. That's what I'm referring to, as the English which shows --.

Page 5045

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But we only have one translation.

2 JUDGE KWON: I'm afraid we don't have the revised translation.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure what the Defence has. Or maybe

4 we have the revised one and what we have on the screen is the original

5 one.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: That's correct.

7 JUDGE KWON: That's correct.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: What's in this book is correct, the one on the

9 screen. The one in the book is the correct one. It should start with

10 "the spot," and I'm sorry we don't have that. That one is apparently not

11 in our system at the moment on the computer.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But we need to make things clear both for ourselves

13 and also for the Defence.

14 In other words, can you read out in English, from the revised or

15 the final or the most up-to-date version that you have, which part is

16 missing?

17 MR. NICHOLLS: It is the part which begins, at the bottom of page

18 1 of the revised translation, "Speaker number 1, these guys who were

19 surrendering," starts there. And it ends on the next page, the part which

20 is missing, with, in the sentence, "They are calling on them to

21 surrender." In that sentence.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Is that clear enough, Mr. Bourgon? Can

23 we see again on the monitor, please, the corresponding part in B/C/S?

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. And actually the highlighted part should end

25 with "na" and the first of line 1, "predaju, a oni nesto," I'm pronouncing

Page 5046

1 that wrong, does appear in both printouts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that clear, Mr. Bourgon? In other words from the

3 highlighted part in the B/C/S version we need to eliminate the last line

4 from the highlight. The rest represents the part which in the English --

5 which should be missing any way. I mean -- it corresponds to the part

6 which Mr. Nicholls read out to us or for us in English.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Perhaps if I put the B/C/S on the next side with

8 this, it will make it clear.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: If you can do that, by all means, please.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: The other one. There, at the bottom of the one on

11 the left, 7582, we see at the very bottom the speaker 1 ending with the

12 word "h-v-a-t-a-j-u," and then 2 sort of fades out. If we go to the next

13 page of the B/C/S version on the left, we can see where it starts with

14 "predaju."

15 Sorry, Your Honour, it's difficult with the computer to get all

16 three of these versions so you can compare them at once, the English and

17 the two B/C/S. So it's missing "directly" from where the one page ends

18 and the other page starts.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But I just want to look because I haven't had a

20 feedback with Mr. Bourgon whether he's happy with this explanation or not

21 because you don't seem either clear in your mind or convinced. I don't

22 know. If we can help you further, Mr. Bourgon, please let us know.

23 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I've got the missing part

24 now but maybe in order to clarify things, it would be good because this

25 was an issue that was raised when this witness testified in the Krstic

Page 5047

1 case, the judges did ask some questions then concerning the differences

2 between the various version that is we have before us now. And maybe my

3 colleague can give the same explanation over again in terms of what was

4 done by ICTY and what really comes from the Bosnian government, because we

5 have different versions here and what we have on the screen, for example,

6 right now, on the right side, is something that was done by ICTY, whereas

7 on the left side is something that comes from the Bosnian government, and

8 I think it's important to clarify this.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: I disagree with that and I don't think it should

10 necessarily be in front of the witness, that type of discussion.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Agreed. Anyway, we'll have time to deal with this

12 before you come to the cross-examinations, I suppose. In the meantime,

13 perhaps you can discuss it amongst yourselves. But otherwise, I think.

14 MR. BOURGON: Will do, Mr. President, thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise, I think it's clear enough, at least in my

16 mind; let's put it like this. And it seems with Judge Kwon as well.

17 JUDGE KWON: Maybe, Mr. Nicholls, do you have the page in front of

18 you which is the translation of the notebook? The first page. It's the

19 passage which appears after the sentence, passage starting with, "It's a

20 madhouse." You see the passage missing? Do you see that?


22 JUDGE KWON: At the last sentence it says, "As printed." Are you

23 coming to that or not? "As printed."

24 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour, that is the -- as printed is --

25 JUDGE KWON: Could you clarify that?

Page 5048

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, I can. The parts in brackets are parts that

2 the translators have put in. That's their comment.

3 JUDGE KWON: Does it appear in the notebook?

4 MR. NICHOLLS: No. That is not -- that is a translation issue.

5 They have written that, "as printed." That would not appear in the

6 notebook, no.

7 JUDGE KWON: So this is not the translation of the notebook.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: No. That is a CLSS insertion, that is their

9 comment on what they have translated. Because wherever you see --

10 JUDGE KWON: My question is, from what did they translate this?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: That is from the printout with the missing section,

12 not from the handwritten notebook. That is the translation you were

13 looking at, 00935899.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: And it is on the screen now, Your Honours, and at

16 the bottom of the translation it has the ERN number of the printout. But

17 just to make it clear, wherever something appears in these back slash

18 brackets, that is something inserted by CLSS. Sometimes they do it if

19 there is an acronym and they spell it out. Sometimes they put a question

20 mark if they are not sure of the word, but that would not be something in

21 the original.

22 JUDGE KWON: And do we have a translation of handwritten note?

23 MR. NICHOLLS: We do not, I believe, have a translation of the

24 handwritten notebook. In some of these cases, we have a translation of

25 just one of the versions, whether it's the printout A or the notebook. In

Page 5049

1 some cases we actually have two at the moment. But in this case I believe

2 we do not have one of the notebook and we've put in the best translation

3 available. That's why the updated translation was included although it's

4 unfortunately not yet in the computer system.

5 JUDGE KWON: Let us proceed.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. I'm done with that intercept. If we

7 could go to intercept tab 4, Your Honours?

8 JUDGE KWON: If you're moving, I have one more question. At the

9 end of the handwritten note, did you deal with the date? I don't

10 remember. Whose writing is that, 14th of July 1995?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I can ask the witness and we can bring it up on the

12 screen.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.

14 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]


16 Q. Sir, at the end of this intercept --

17 MR. JOSSE: The witness said something there, Your Honour,

18 obviously I didn't understand it and it wasn't translated.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we need to have it translated.

20 Mr. Nicholls, perhaps you can ask the witness what he said.


22 Q. Could you please repeat your comment that -- the interpreters did

23 not catch it?

24 A. The question was put to me but the text didn't immediately appear

25 on the screen and I was just saying that the text is not on the screen,

Page 5050

1 and I can't give an answer until I see what's written.

2 Q. Thank you. If you see it now, under where you had written the

3 nickname Zoki, there is a date written there, 14 July, 95; first of all,

4 is that your handwriting?

5 A. I think it is. That is roughly the way I write numbers.

6 Q. And what does that date -- we looked earlier at the date on the

7 preceding page. What does this date at the end of the intercept signify,

8 if you recall?

9 A. After so much time has gone by, I can't remember, and I wouldn't

10 like to say anything I'm not quite certain of.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you a question, Mr. Nicholls, just to have

12 it clear in my mind? Before you meant to take us to tab 4, to the

13 intercept at tab 4, after having finished with tab 1, at least according

14 to what I have in the transcript, is that you said, "I'm not going to go

15 over the intercept at tab 2 in any detail." Does that mean that you meant

16 to go --

17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- into it somewhat, because if you did, you

19 haven't.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. What I meant was, at the

21 very beginning I asked the witness if he had reviewed that intercept in

22 his handwriting and confirmed that that was a -- one of his intercepts

23 that he recorded and recognised. That was as far as I was going to go and

24 not go into any more detail on that, on that one.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 5051

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Just a moment.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. NICHOLLS: If we could go to tab 4, please, and put up the

4 handwritten notebook. And at the same time, could we put up the English

5 translation which we have, which is actually of the printout?

6 Q. While that's coming up, sir, do you recognise your handwriting on

7 the left page?

8 A. Yes. That is my handwriting.

9 Q. Now, looking at this, take a moment to look at the intercept, can

10 you tell me, it's pretty -- perhaps clear, but how did you identify the

11 speakers in this conversation?

12 A. They introduced themselves, or they introduced one to another.

13 First it was Mr. Popovic who introduced himself and then General Krstic

14 answered, "Krstic." And then they continue the conversation, and he

15 says, "Yes, boss." So I didn't recognise anything. I just noted what I

16 had heard.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Now, if we could go to the printout, please, B/C/S

19 on the left which we have the translation on the right.

20 Q. Now, this intercept according to the transmission, the report, was

21 frequently 245.950 megahertz. Was that frequency associated by you with

22 any particular units or headquarters or persons, if you remember?

23 A. In concrete terms, this is the radio relay device RRU-1, working

24 at a lower range, that is from 170 to 260 megahertz. I think I said 230

25 the first time but I think it's 260 or 280, and here the frequency is

Page 5052

1 245.950 megahertz. At the time this conversation was recorded, I probably

2 knew exactly which centre this was and what its secret name was, but now

3 I'm unable to say with certainty that it was specifically linked to a

4 particular centre. It is a point through which many other communications

5 pass in various other directions, so the radio relay device was not used

6 by just one person for me to be able to say who the user was of that

7 particular frequency.

8 Q. Okay. They talk, the participants, in this intercept about --

9 Krstic says, "Get on over to Bajina Basta." Can you tell us where that

10 is?

11 A. Yes. Bajina Basta is in the Republic of Serbia, nowadays the

12 state of Serbia. It is on the other side of the Drina River. It is not

13 in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. And azimuth 135, just so we are clear, it states that, that is

15 what direction or where would that be on the face of a clock from your --

16 from the southern facility?

17 A. If you had a compass in your hand, you know what the north is, so

18 12.00 would be the north, and 3.00 would be azimuth 30 -- 90, I'm sorry,

19 so this would be southeast in relation to 12.00. In relation to the

20 location where I was, it could be somewhere close to Han Pijesak, Konjevic

21 Polje, or that area. If one had a map, one would be able to indicate

22 exactly what the location is.

23 Q. And while we are talking about locations, if you can answer this

24 question as simply as you can, can you tell the location of a speaker, if

25 you don't know who is talking, if it's just 1 and 2, can you tell the

Page 5053

1 location of the speakers just by the frequency? Is that possible or

2 impossible?

3 A. No. I think that is impossible because a radio relay centre

4 enables all users from all directions to communicate, like any telephone

5 lines. So someone could have called up from another country. So it is

6 not possible to determine the location solely on the basis of the

7 frequency. Only if a person indicated the name or the name of the unit or

8 the code name, and if the code name was heard, then one would know exactly

9 through which centre the conversation is coming.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours we are five minutes, I think, from the

12 break, if I have the time correct. This has taken longer than I thought

13 but I will for sure finish today. If -- I'd rather take the break now,

14 five minutes early, and make sure all my documents are in the computer are

15 going to come up rather than start, if that's all right with you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll have the break now, as per your

17 desire or wish, and we'll resume at five minutes to 6.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls, go ahead, please. We'll stop at

21 7.00.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 I'm going now to the intercept at tab 5. Perhaps it would help

24 the witness if I could have the usher -- I'll give him a copy of the

25 original notebook to look at. And we can have the two pages of the

Page 5054

1 notebook on the screen. Does everybody have the two B/C/S pages on their

2 screen?

3 Q. All right. Sir, please look at the page on the right, the ERN

4 01077953. And the lines starting at 245950 below -- well, actually on

5 this whole page, do you recognise your handwriting?

6 A. Yes, yes, it's my handwriting.

7 Q. And we can see that on the right, the conversation which starts on

8 the right page, 7953, the time noted is 1300, correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And if we look on the left side, the previous page, which is 7952,

11 we see the intercept we have just been talking about, which has the time

12 noted at 1240, 20 minutes before, correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. So are these two intercepts that you listened to then and

15 transcribed in sequence as they appear in the book?

16 A. I think so.

17 Q. And let me just ask you: Besides looking at this book is this an

18 intercept that you remember, that stuck out in your mind in any way, these

19 two intercepts?

20 A. Yes. I think I will never forget this for as long as I live.

21 Q. All right.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Now, if we could go and have the English

23 translation up on the screen, please. This is 1395. And Your Honours,

24 this is the translation of the printout. The translation of the notebook

25 does appear at the very beginning of this tab.

Page 5055

1 Sorry, could we put the B/C/S up for the witness, of the printout?

2 And we should, I'm sorry, we should, to be on the safe side, not broadcast

3 this, although we can have it on our monitors.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Make sure that -- okay. All right.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

6 Q. Now, sir, on the printout on the right, we can see your intercept

7 from 1240 which we've just looked at in the book as well as the next

8 intercept at 1300. Do you see that on the right?

9 A. Yes, yes, I can see that.

10 Q. And at the top heading, on the top left of this page, it

11 says, "Strictly confidential, number 03/0208."

12 Can you tell me what that number means, 03/0208? And if you have

13 trouble reading it, I'll give you a hard copy.

14 A. That number should -- well, 03 should be probably the number of

15 the conversation, and 02 and 08 should be the 2nd of August, the date. So

16 that would mean that it was recorded on the 2nd of August. You can see

17 the date down here, the 2nd of August 1995. Usually that's the way we'd

18 mark documents, with numbers.

19 Q. Okay. And would this 030 -- 03/0208, was that typed in by the

20 person operating the computer before this report was sent to

21 headquarters?

22 A. Well, of course. I mean, the computer does it and you just

23 correct the date for the next date. So every one that was sent was sent

24 with that letterhead, so to speak, and with the right date and number.

25 That is to say that we, who were transcribing these texts from the tape,

Page 5056

1 we did not enter that. Whoever would copy that from the notebook on to

2 the computer would do it.

3 Q. Okay. Now, and just to be clear, we can see from these two

4 intercepts that the azimuth is the same, 135, and the frequency is the

5 same, 245.950 megahertz; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. That is quite correct, and it can be seen from this

7 particular case, RRU-1 with its frequency, its azimuth, and the

8 timing, R-3.000 is the device that was used for listening to this

9 frequency.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, if you -- you've listed the participants here as

11 Krstic and Popovic. How did you -- for this intercept, how did you arrive

12 at their identities?

13 A. Well, their identity was established by way of the introductions

14 themselves. There is no denying that.

15 Q. Now, do you remember that we played a tape recording in my office

16 of this conversation?

17 A. Yes, I remember that.

18 Q. I'd like to play that now, if we can. It will be on Sanction, and

19 first, though, if we can get the English translation of the tape recording

20 on the screen.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Nicholls.

22 Mr. Zivanovic?

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

24 kindly ask to clarify what is going to be played to us. Is it the

25 original or is it some copy, a copy of the original, or of some other

Page 5057

1 recording? Could we just know what this is exactly?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, can you answer that question, Mr. Nicholls?

3 MR. NICHOLLS: It's a copy of the original. It's been put into

4 Sanction. The original is in the vault, in the evidence vault.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Clear enough, Mr. Zivanovic?

6 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know if we -- what he means by exact

7 original. This is not the original recording, obviously, because it's

8 been digitised and fed into the computer but it is a copy of the

9 original.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's clear enough.

11 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Well, we

13 had received information that there were some originals on tapes. We were

14 informed that this was re-recorded on to some other tapes and later on,

15 well, this is a third version of all of this. So that's why I thought it

16 was necessary to clarify the matter. I think that we should see the

17 original, since the Prosecution has it available.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: I can make it available to counsel to listen to the

19 actual tape on the special tape recording machine that -- one moment.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: If we listen to the original, it will be here in the

22 courtroom. It's no point in making it available to counsel and not to us

23 or other counsel, I mean.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: It's exactly the same, and I note there wasn't any

25 request for this earlier for him -- he could have come by and listened to

Page 5058

1 it.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Nicholls. Let's proceed with what

3 you have now. And if there are -- there is an ad hoc request, please come

4 forward with it, Mr. Zivanovic, and we'll see if it's the case of

5 proceeding accordingly or not.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: If I may say one thing before we play the tape,

7 the -- there is a translation in your packet, and in the Defence packet,

8 it's impossible to put that on the screen while we play the tape and that

9 should be T 0000822 B-ET translation. And let me be very clear. The

10 other printouts we've seen today that I've shown have all been ones we

11 received as evidence. This translation is a transcript made by CLSS of

12 the tape recording. So this is our transcript.

13 Now if we could play the tape?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before we proceed.

15 Mr. Zivanovic?

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I just don't know why we cannot

17 hear the simultaneous interpretation of the recording, not the text. The

18 text is something that we have. I think that we should hear the

19 simultaneous interpretation of the recording itself.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: That is impossible. It is

21 impossible to interpret from that kind of material.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if you received this but we've -- the

23 interpreters have just told us that is impossible. It's impossible to

24 interpret from that kind of material.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: My submission Your Honour, also, would be that it's

Page 5059

1 completely unnecessary because that's asking somebody to do an

2 interpretation on the fly as they are listening as opposed to what's been

3 done carefully in a controlled environment where they have been able to

4 listen to it over and over again and get it right. So I don't see the

5 point.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we are just making a -- creating a storm in

7 a tea cup. Let's go through it -- with it. Okay? Through with it.

8 Let's listen to it. Now, if you have problems with the translation that

9 has been made available, please come forward, say so, and we'll try and

10 see how we address the problem. Otherwise, I don't see why we shouldn't--

11 why we should even be discussing these matters. Let's listen to what we

12 have.

13 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I don't want to complicate matters.

14 Could I just inquire whether the Court wishes the interpreters to read out

15 the translation that we have in front of us? Certainly in my previous

16 case, that is what was done on these occasions or whether the Court simply

17 wants us all to hear the B/C/S?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: What I thought I heard Mr. Nicholls saying

19 previously was that the transcript will appear --

20 MR. NICHOLLS: No, I'm sorry, if it seems to be -- it's impossible

21 to put the transcript on the screen at the same time that we play the

22 recording. But we all have it in our packets.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But the thing is in other words, because

24 I see the point raised, in other words we will be hearing presumably two

25 voices speaking their own language, which we don't understand, and we are

Page 5060

1 not having any simultaneous translation because the interpreters tell us

2 that that is impossible. What we can do is look at the transcript that we

3 have. On the other hand, if we do what you suggested, Mr. Josse, I mean,

4 the interpreters will translate into what?

5 MR. JOSSE: They simply read out what we have in the packet. That

6 is what I've heard them do in the past.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But we can read out that ourselves.

8 MR. JOSSE: I think the reason it was done previously was so that

9 it was on the transcript, Your Honour. That was the only reason.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

11 MR. JOSSE: I don't want to interfere further. I just simply

12 wanted to clarify the position before we begin the procedure.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is this: I see your point and I think we

16 quite --

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I see the point but I want to have it clear in my

19 mind what's going to happen, because presumably the interpreters will read

20 it out in English. Is that going to be translated into B/C/S while the

21 accused and others are listening to the tape in B/C/S?

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I think what we need to do is just

23 play the tape and if my friend wants it made part of the record it can be

24 read into the record afterwards but the tape just needs to be played by

25 itself. We can follow along. It's going to be.

Page 5061

1 MR. JOSSE: I'm happy with that. I'm not requesting that. Let me

2 make that clear.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: What I don't want is anything because we will be

4 hearing voices and not understand anything. I speak for myself. But

5 there may be others, including, and particularly so, the accused

6 themselves, who will be listening to this alleged conversation, and I

7 wouldn't like to have anything interfere with their listening and with

8 their following the conversation.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Exactly, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So I don't know. I am a little bit torn between

11 what Mr. Josse has suggested, which makes a lot of sense, and the

12 practical approach.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: It's a very short --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed this way, because I think

16 Mr. Josse is right. Let's have the tape played and the interpreters will,

17 at least for the purpose of the transcript, read out what they have

18 available.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, if I may, could we just play it twice

20 then so that there is no cross interpretation or any interference? It's

21 very short.

22 JUDGE KWON: The translation will take place only in English

23 channel.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: That's correct.

25 JUDGE KWON: And the accused can follow the real tapes.

Page 5062

1 MR. NICHOLLS: And they will -- the quality of the audio,

2 they will have to follow along and just read off of the translation.

3 That --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We can listen -- listen to it once, I think that

5 should be enough. I don't think we need to play it twice. If -- whoever

6 is going to follow in the Serbian-Croat language just has to make sure

7 that they focus on that channel and on nothing else because otherwise it

8 will get confusing.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: It will just be extremely difficult to impossible.

10 Even with the best quality, if the interpreters do not have a transcript,

11 I don't believe that --

12 JUDGE KWON: Not the interpreters -- the interpreters will read

13 the transcript and, if there is any translation issues, they can be raised

14 later on.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can proceed along these lines. So you

16 play the tape, the interpreters read out slowly the transcript so that we

17 have it in the record. Okay, and then if -- we'll see what the position

18 will be afterwards.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we please have an

20 exact reference which transcript will be read out, out of the three under

21 tab 5? Thank you.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: It is T 0000822 B-ET/translation. It's towards the

23 back of the packet. It is not the one which states draft translation.

24 It's the final translation.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Got it? Got it?

Page 5063

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that we do not have that kind

2 of numbering --

3 THE FRENCH INTERPRETER: The French booth: We do not have --

4 THE INTERPRETER: -- 822 B-ET/translation.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have to provide the interpreters with

6 this document. It's this one.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's play the tape and --

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: -- that being so.

10 THE FRENCH INTERPRETER: The French booth interpreters note we

11 will have to translates from English into French because we do not have

12 the documents in French.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are -- the English booth is not going to have the

14 document in English either. In other words we are not going to have any

15 translations at all. We are just proceeding with the playback of the

16 recording and that will be it for the time being. Because otherwise it's

17 getting too complicated. And as far as the record goes, I think we can

18 find a solution for that.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The English booth does have

20 that particular transcript if you wish to have it read out.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We are not going to have anything read out

22 while the playback is ongoing. Is it clear? And the transcript will only

23 show that this recording was played from such time to such time. Thank

24 you.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, if we could play it now from the

Page 5064

1 beginning.

2 [Audiotape played]


4 Q. Sir, were you able to hear -- sir, were you able to follow that

5 tape-recorded conversation?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. Is that the same conversation which you monitored at 1300 hours on

8 the 2nd of August 1995?

9 A. Yes, fully.

10 Q. And that you transcribed into the notebook?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Now, if we could bring back up the English, please, of the report,

13 and the B/C/S of the report, and it's down at the bottom on your right,

14 sir, in your language. You can see that the conversation as recorded

15 starts, "Yes"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Krstic and then --

18 A. Stop, please. I have nothing on my screen.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: He is right, because -- all right. Do you have the

20 two pages now?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do now.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, sir.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

24 Q. If you look, sir, at the bottom of the page on your right, that

25 transcript of the intercept at 1300, which begins:

Page 5065

1 "K: Molim?

2 And then "P: Sefe."

3 In English, "Yes." And "Hey, boss."

4 That is how you have started to transcribe the conversation. Do

5 you see that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Now, if we could please go, I think just the English of the

8 transcript of the tape recording on the right. Again it is our transcript

9 of the tape. There is a little bit more on the transcript of the tape,

10 sir. We have "P: Hey boss.

11 And then"Y: Just a minute.

12 "P: Popovic here.

13 "Y: Hey, what's up, go ahead.

14 "P: Is Uran there? In person?

15 "Y: ... couldn't hear.

16 And then "P: I need to talk to Krle, Krle."

17 Did you hear that exchange they beginning of the tape we listened

18 to when you were listening to it in your language?

19 A. Yes. We heard that a moment ago on the tape, and I can explain

20 it.

21 Q. All right. Well, my question is: This little extra part of the

22 tape, why did you not transcribe that into the notebook and into your

23 report, that little portion where P says "Popovic here"?

24 A. I didn't consider that part necessary because it relates to the

25 conversation between Mr. Popovic and the operator on duty, who just needs

Page 5066

1 to connect him to his boss. And when he asked, "Is Uran there, not Zoran"

2 that was the code name of his boss. And I didn't consider this to be

3 significant because this was just a way of getting -- establishing contact

4 between operators in radio relay systems. I don't think that it is worth

5 devoting special attention to. However, now, listening to the tape, one

6 can hear this part of the conversation that we now see in the English

7 version.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: No further questions at this time, thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Who is going first?

10 JUDGE KWON: One housekeeping question, Mr. Nicholls. In relation

11 to the 65 ter number, the index says this is 65 number 1395 but actually I

12 found you put A or Bs at the end of the numbers and I -- it was

13 difficult -- impossible to find -- for me to find the document with this

14 number so could you clarify the number in general? When do you put A or

15 B?

16 MR. NICHOLLS: That, and I might have to get some help from my

17 colleague, the intercept has one number, 1395, and then because there are

18 printouts, audio, handwritten notebooks and translations, those all have

19 subnumbers, so the index we can provide a better index which says which is

20 which. For example 1395 D is the translation of the handwritten notebook.

21 1395 D should bring up the notebook in e-court and then the translation

22 will be attached. 1395 B is the printout and the translation should be

23 attached to that.

24 JUDGE KWON: That is sufficient. Thank you.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. And the rest have other numbers.

Page 5067

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Kwon and thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

2 I understand Mr. Zivanovic for Colonel Popovic is going first. Yes,

3 Mr. Zivanovic.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. Tell me, please, in this southern facility, I won't mention the

8 name, as we agreed, in addition to the platoon which you were the leader,

9 was there any other unit present?

10 A. Yes. There was the communications squad of three or four men, I

11 already said, who engaged in their own activities regarding

12 communications.

13 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did your unit have any functional connection

14 with that communications unit? In other words, was your work linked to

15 this communications unit?

16 A. No. It was not linked to that unit in any way. It is a separate

17 unit of the corps. They had their own duties and activities that we did

18 not interfere with, neither did they interfere in ours.

19 Q. Thank you. In addition to monitoring enemy communications, did

20 you engage in any other activities linked to counter-electronic combat?

21 A. From this facility that I was in command of, we only intercepted

22 conversations on these radio relay devices; at times other frequencies

23 were monitored as well.

24 Q. Did your unit engage in encryption of the data that was being

25 forwarded?

Page 5068

1 A. I'm just waiting for the translation. Our unit did not do the

2 encrypting. It was done by the software in the computer so we didn't need

3 any personnel for encrypting or for coding, but once the text was typed

4 in, which we had transcribed from the tape, then the computer itself

5 produces its own hieroglyphics and this then goes on to the computer it is

6 linked to which has the same software and then this other computer reads

7 it back in text form in the way it was sent.

8 Q. Does that mean that by automatically entering a text into your

9 computer, it was automatically encrypted?

10 A. Well, yes. Literally. But in principle, the text would first be

11 typed out and then you set the software in motion for the computer

12 protected so it wasn't automatically done as one types it into the

13 computer but once it was typed in, instructions would be given to the

14 computer to encrypt it and then through Paket links this would be

15 forwarded in the form of small packets to the other computer.

16 Q. Does that mean that each member of the platoon could do this,

17 enter the text into the computer, and give instructions for the text to be

18 encrypted and then forwarded to another unit?

19 A. In principle, the actual link between the corps was established by

20 one operator. We would type in our text into the computer in the form we

21 had transcribed it in, but the rest was done by an operator who was

22 equipped for this, who was specialised in this area.

23 Q. When you say processing, you mean sending the encrypted text to

24 your higher unit?

25 A. When I say processing, that means giving the instruction to the

Page 5069

1 computer to encrypt it and then send it on. That's what I meant.

2 Q. Did your work engage in jamming enemy communications?

3 A. If I'm talking only about my platoon, for a period of time we did

4 make some attempts at that, but we didn't have the necessary equipment, so

5 that we did very little of that, because jamming such information and that

6 kind of links, I don't think, has any logic or meaning. And if we tried

7 sometimes to do some jamming, it was usually simply as a trial on civilian

8 communications because these radio relay devices had channels for the

9 transfer of civilian communications so that civilians could also enter

10 into communication with their relatives or friends. So that at least my

11 squad did not engage in jamming of this type of communications.

12 Q. Does that mean that you jammed civilian communications or some

13 others?

14 A. This was done experimentally only but in my opinion, it was

15 negligible, it was just an attempt. Because to be able to do jamming, you

16 had to have more powerful radio devices because it is not possible to

17 enter telephone lines. You have to jam with the help of signals and we

18 didn't have such devices.

19 Q. Could you please look at Defence Exhibit 1D75? We only have the

20 B/C/S version. We have asked for all these documents to be translated and

21 we expect them to be done shortly so that we will have them in English.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

23 MR. NICHOLLS: This should maybe not be transmitted outside the

24 courtroom.


Page 5070

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, it depends on how the questioning is going to

2 go but it ...

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, all right. Okay. No broadcast of the image

4 of this document, all right? Go ahead, and please avoid mentioning the

5 station location.

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].

7 Q. You see at the bottom of the screen there is a paragraph which

8 says, "We are jamming because on this channel their teleprinter is

9 operating." It was at the bottom. Now it's in the middle.

10 A. Yes, I see it.

11 Q. So it says, "We are jamming because their teleprinter is working

12 on this channel. Previously we jammed the teleprinter on RRU-1, 264.975

13 frequency and 252.375 frequency successfully. We assume that they have

14 shifted from RRU-1 to RUP-12."

15 I apologise to the interpreters.

16 A. This is something unknown to me but I can explain what I know

17 about it. If we follow the report, this is a frequency between 30 and 70

18 megahertz that my department never monitored or jammed anyone. This is

19 work done probably by the radio communications department and I have

20 already said that I really don't know what they were doing. And if they

21 did this, according to this text, this jamming, that is something I really

22 don't know. My unit did not engage in that. I can say that with full

23 responsibility. But it could have been this other department, if you're

24 talking about my facility.

25 Q. I have many other documents from which we see that from this

Page 5071

1 location, such jamming was done. I'm interested in learning whether you

2 had any indications, whether anyone told you that a unit right next to

3 you, very close to you, in your immediate vicinity, is jamming

4 communications? Is it possible for this to be happening without you not

5 knowing about it?

6 A. All I can say is --


8 Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

9 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry to interrupt so early but he has answered

10 that. He said he didn't know what they were doing and he was just looking

11 at this and speculating because he didn't know what they were doing, this

12 other unit.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. Nicholls is right because basically

14 however many excerpts you can refer him to from the various documents that

15 you have in your possession, I think the answer, you have it already, and

16 it's not going to change so ...

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll move on to

18 another topic.

19 Q. I have found another document which says - and I can show it to

20 you, but that may not be necessary - that there were certain zones that

21 your unit monitored. And there four zones according to what I saw. Do

22 you remember that?

23 A. I can just say not that -- not only do I not remember --

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Could counsel just tell me which document he's

25 talking about on his list?

Page 5072

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. Which document are you referring the

2 witness to or you are referring to anyway?

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is 1D79.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In the meantime I think the witness indicated

5 that he is not in a position to answer this question. Do you want to have

6 a look at this document or do you think you can proceed to answer this

7 question without the need to refer to the document.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just, with respect to zones,

9 say that in every printed transcript with a header, the zone is

10 indicated. So these zones did exist. But I cannot now, nor did I know at

11 the time, which is which zone. This was up to the command. When we

12 received an order, they would say, zone such and such, frequency such and

13 such, and you are expected to monitor that azimuth and that direction.

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].

15 Q. You told us that your unit had a maximum of nine men. If I

16 understood you correctly, you worked in shifts. So half of the unit would

17 go to this southern facility, to call it that, whereas the other half

18 would stay wherever they stayed; is that right?

19 A. Maybe we didn't understand one another. My unit, which I was the

20 commander, consisted of two squads, with a maximum of eight to nine men in

21 each. Usually there were nine of us. So those nine were always present

22 in one shift. And then 10 days or 15 days later, the next squad would

23 come with nine men, and that is how we worked. So there were always

24 enough of us to cover four shifts with two men each. Sometimes, when

25 necessary, when there were combat operations, we had no working hours or

Page 5073

1 anything, we were all on duty all the time.

2 Q. You know that there was a unit in the north. I don't want to

3 mention the name.

4 A. Yes, yes. I do know.

5 Q. Was it more numerous than yours or not?

6 A. I don't know exactly but I think it was, but I'm not sure.

7 Q. How long was one shift?

8 A. It usually lasted six hours. Usually.

9 Q. So you're talking about the day-time shift. I'm talking about the

10 shift when you go to the facility and stay there.

11 A. Oh, I see. We would stay there for 10 days and in winter time,

12 when it was difficult to go on foot, as we had to, then the shift would

13 last 15 days. We would have a change of shift every 15 days.

14 Q. Can you tell me, please -- let's just summarise. In answer to a

15 question of the Prosecution, you described the equipment that you had,

16 that you had receivers, tape recorders. You showed us the photographs.

17 And we saw all that equipment, including the computer which was very

18 important for you. Tell us, what was the condition of this equipment?

19 What condition was it in?

20 A. Most of the equipment at the time when we were working was new.

21 The receivers, R-100 that I mentioned, AOR-3000 that was mentioned a

22 moments ago, all these were new devices, which, I really don't know

23 through which channels they reached us, and reached our units. I don't

24 know. Probably from abroad. I just -- I don't know. A part of the

25 equipment at the beginning, in 1992, or most of the equipment, was from

Page 5074

1 radio clubs, from my radio club. We used all the equipment that we had

2 for this purpose.

3 Q. Can you tell me which of the equipment was new?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, answer this question, and then we wind up

5 for the day.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned just now the radio

7 receiver ICOM R-100. Then radio receiver AOR-3000, also new. Then the

8 shortwave receiver and transmitter, Kenwood, was also new. The tape

9 recorders were not new because they were collected from various companies

10 because they were used for recording meetings of workers councils and the

11 tapes were, were from there, too, then some other shortwave devices were

12 new. There was one mentioned in a transcript, ICOM CR-71. This is also a

13 shortwave receiver, so all the equipment was new except for the tape

14 recorders. Part of the antennas we found there when we arrived. Some of

15 them we made ourselves. The converters that used to reduce the frequency

16 we made ourselves. I made some of them myself for us to be able to

17 monitor.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].

19 Q. Just one more question. And the computer?

20 A. The computer we all had computers at home even before the war

21 started.

22 Q. My question was, was it new?

23 A. Well, I don't know that. I really don't know.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

25 I thank you, Witness.

Page 5075

1 We will reconvene tomorrow in the afternoon at 2.15. Thank you.

2 In the meantime, Witness, you are not to communicate with anyone

3 or let anyone communicate with you on the matters you're testifying upon.

4 Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

8 December, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.