1 Wednesday, 17 January 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you kindly call the case, please, Madam
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. For the record, we have been
10 informed that Mr. Nikolic, the accused, is not with us because of medical
11 problems. Of course we wish him a quick return to the courtroom. In the
12 meantime, I am also informed, please confirm, Madam Nikolic, that there is
13 no concern on your part that we proceed in his absence.
14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no
15 objections. We will know after the doctor's examination whether this will
16 be just today or for the whole week. Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Nikolic, and I'm sure
18 you will come back to us. Mr. Sarapa is back, Mr. Bourgon is not here as
19 explained by Ms. Nikolic. The rest of the teams are here. And the
20 Prosecution, apart from Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls and also Ms. Soljan --
21 I find it difficult to pronounce your name. Soljan. Okay. I notice that
22 the witness is not in. Are there any preliminaries that would you like to
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Good afternoon. I just have
25 a scheduling matter I would like to bring up with the Court and perhaps I'm
1 looking at this a bit negatively, but the good news is that we're going
2 much quicker and we expect to keep that pace. The bad news is that we had
3 planned for this week to, in addition to this witness, have three more
4 witnesses, and if -- but if we keep this pace and in talking to the
5 counsel, we don't see that they have a whole lot of cross-examination, we
6 could very well finish early on Friday and have time left. I may be wrong,
7 I have that worry every Wednesday and most -- and I have not had that
8 problem yet, but it looks like with your new schedule, we may have some
9 time. I've tried to bring in other people, but given visa issues and other
10 things, I'm told it can't be done. We're trying but it looks like we may
11 have some time. I've been wrong in the past, but we're going -- the train
12 is a little ahead of us, we will catch up.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose in that case, we can start doing some
14 brainstorming to identify some legal issue pending between the two of you,
15 which we could deal with on Friday if we finish early with the witness.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I've asked Defence counsel, they've referred
17 me to Mr. Bourgon, and we can see if there's something we can argue about,
18 but also there is a video or two that we might play, but we're looking.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: That is fine. And also perhaps I think it's high
20 time now we bring the Ruez and images matter to an end. There has been
21 ample time for the Defence to consult with you, enabling you to go back to
22 the American Embassy and conclude the matter. So perhaps we could do that
23 on Friday.
24 Judge Kwon? Yeah.
25 So it's an invitation to the Defence teams to try thinking about
1 a possible debate on this matter on Friday or some other matter, issue that
2 you wish to debate. All right?
3 I thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
4 Are there any other preliminary matters you would like to raise?
5 I hear none.
6 Can we draw down the curtains, please, and bring in the witness,
7 Madam Usher?
8 [The witness entered court]
9 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-134 [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir. We're going to proceed
12 with the cross-examination and hopefully finish within a short time.
13 Mr. Lazarevic, you may proceed.
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And good afternoon.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. We will continue where we left off yesterday.
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear what the counsel
20 is saying.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic, it could be the curtains, but the
22 interpreters couldn't follow, couldn't hear what you were saying. So if
23 you can -- let's finish until the curtains are up and then proceed with
24 repeating your question, please. And you need -- okay. Thank you.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, to be honest, it wasn't quite a question, I
1 just said to the witness that we shall continue where we stopped yesterday.
2 Nothing more than that.
3 Now, can we have on the e-court, document number 993D. Can we go
4 a bit lower? That's it. Thank you very much.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I assume that Mr. Nicholls showed you
6 this document when you were preparing to testify. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you please tell me, of course you can remember, if when you
9 were noting down this intercept that we see in front of us, if you changed
10 your pen at some point?
11 A. I cannot remember.
12 Q. Of course, it's understandable after so many years. But let us
13 look at the original document and let's try to clarify some things just so
14 that it's clear in the transcript what is actually written there.
15 [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... I would kindly
16 ask them to give to Madam Usher notebook number 232, and it's page number
17 01077793, I believe it's already marked with a blue marker. Pull it a bit
18 up, just to make sure that this -- that's it. Thank you very much. And
19 just a bit down, because I want to discuss the whole -- that's it. Thank
21 [Interpretation] Witness, you see for yourself the original of
22 the notebook. So if we can just clarify some things that we can see now
23 that we're looking at the original. Before that we were looking at a copy.
24 Let's start from what is written at the top. What's written at the top is
25 (redacted) can you see that? If I'm not mistaken that is not your
2 A. That is not my handwriting.
3 Q. And this is written with a pencil if you can see it there. Can
4 you tell us what this word (redacted) means and who wrote that. With just one
5 warning, if it's some colleague of yours that you worked with together,
6 please tell us right away so that we can move into private session so we
7 don't identify him in open session.
8 A. I would prefer that we go into private session, then.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we go --
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: We should move into private session.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay, yes. Thank you then.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Now, when we look, we see that it says 785000,
14 then we have 5 or 3 CH then 20 or 21:40. We can see that certain
15 corrections were made here.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you please tell me now whether what was written in black pen
18 was written first or whether what is written in red was written first?
19 Because then we could work out what was corrected of the two.
20 A. The first thing that was written was written in red pen.
21 Q. And if you can also tell me here in front of this CH, was it 5
22 and changed to 3? Is that the correction?
23 A. I think that it was 3 and that it -- later it was changed to a 5.
24 Q. Thank you very much. Can you explain the same thing for the
25 time? I think it's this part that comes after that, what was the original
1 and what was the correction?
2 A. The original was written in red, and the correction was written
3 in the dark ink.
4 Q. Can you please tell me when the correction was made?
5 A. I'm sorry, can I explain what this is about in this particular
6 case? It's like this: There was a conversation which was written in red
7 ink, the information regarding that conversation was written in red. Then
8 it was decided that the conversation was not important, so the red writing
9 remained. When a new conversation came up, I just left the information in
10 red and I just corrected the information that pertained to this later
11 conversation, and then I continued to note it down after that.
12 Q. Yes, I understand that is a satisfactory explanation. I would
13 like to ask you, would this frequency 785000 and this 5 or 3, the
14 indication of the channel, it doesn't matter what it is, were you able, on
15 the basis of these two pieces of information, to conclude where the
16 collocutor marked as Y was actually located during this conversation? Can
17 this be concluded on the basis of this information?
18 A. I cannot remember.
19 Q. When you were testifying yesterday at one point Mr. Nicholls
20 asked you why X and Y were used and then after that General Krstic,
21 Borovcanin from special forces, and now I would like to be quite specific
22 so this can go in the transcript. This is on page 5928 of yesterday's
24 [In English] "In this intercept in line two, it states: 'Hello,
25 this is Borovcanin. General, how are you?' And at the top you have
1 written 'Borovcanin from the specials.' Can you tell us why you wrote that
2 'from the specials' after Borovcanin's name at the top?"
3 [Interpretation] That was the question from the Prosecution and
4 your answer was as follows:
5 "[In English] That was on the device. I heard him introduce
6 himself. But that part had not been recorded. That is why it is not in
7 the transcribed portion."
8 [Interpretation] Does this help? You have read your answer back
9 to you what you told the Prosecutor to his question yesterday. If I
10 understand your answer correctly, you stated an assumption why something
11 was written, and not that you actually remember why this was written.
12 A. In this specific case I don't recall, but I could explain in
13 principle what the procedure was, how I actually did the job and perhaps
14 then it would be clear to you. Would you like me to explain it?
15 Q. Well, we do have your testimony from the Krstic case. We have
16 the transcript. So we are more or less familiar with that, but we are
17 interested in this specific case if you remember this being so
18 specifically, or you just assumed that that's how it was and we are
19 interested in the question by the Prosecutor from yesterday.
20 A. Well, from this late distance, it's been a long time since then,
21 I cannot remember.
22 Q. All right. So on the basis of your answer I conclude that it is
23 your assumption that you heard that Borovcanin was from the specials before
24 the conversation was taped and that's why you wrote it down. You wrote it
25 down based on what you remembered at the time; is that correct?
1 A. Most probably I heard when he was calling the switchboard
2 operator, I heard him introduced himself like that and I started to record
3 and at that time, most probably, I wrote this down so that I wouldn't
4 forgot it later. And the actual text was transcribed later, after the text
5 was heard back, after the tape recording was listened to and then the
6 conversation was transcribed.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Just to be clear, the 92 summary is the witness's
9 ICTY statement because my friend said we've got your Krstic testimony, so I
10 just -- in case there was any misunderstanding on his part, it's not the
11 Krstic testimony that we're submitting.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic, I think he's correct.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Of course, but I wanted to make use a little bit
14 more on Krstic transcript. This is why I said that it was already
15 testified here about. Well, maybe because at this point I'm going to quote
16 some parts from Krstic case, so maybe we should move into private session
17 as that was the case before when Madam Fauveau did so as well.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's revert to private session, please.
19 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. I have just read the question and your answer to the question in
19 the Krstic case. And, as you have heard after I testified -- actually,
20 after I presented to you, you probably, after listening back to the tape,
21 understood that it was Borovcanin from the specials. Was that your
22 assumption at the time also when you testified about it in the Krstic case?
23 A. I assume that it was.
24 Q. Well, I am not going to misunderstand. If you don't answer it, I
25 mean it's been a long time since then, so it's clear that this is an
1 assumption of yours about what you wrote down at the time rather than a
2 clear recollection of why you happened to write that down. I mean do you -
3 - do you agree with me?
4 A. I agree with you in principle, but if possible I would like to
5 just explain one thing.
6 Q. Go ahead.
7 A. I always took care that the information that I jotted down would
8 be as accurate as possible. I didn't want to risk ever - I remember that
9 very well - risk sending the wrong information to the higher command. I
10 would rather not send any information than send the wrong information to
12 Q. And of course you carried out your duties as best you knew how.
13 However, since we are talking about assumptions here, if I were to tell you
14 that a colleague of yours who was here could also say something along the
15 lines of yes, he's the one from the specials, could that have been another
16 way of finding out what this entry is about?
17 A. In such cases, there should have been a question mark next to the
18 information, and I don't see it here.
19 Q. Very well. Let us have a look at the conversation and its
20 continuation. I think you saw it during proofing as well. It carries on
21 to the next page. Can we conclude that there is no name there, no mention
22 of names apart from Borovcanin and Krstic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If we go back to the beginning we see that it starts with,
25 "Hello, this is Krstic." And the answer is, "Hello, this is Borovcanin.
1 General, how are you?" You will agree with me this hello is a usual
2 greeting when beginning a telephone link or radio link.
3 A. It is symptomatic of a telephone conversation.
4 Q. Can we conclude that this marks the beginning of the
5 conversation, they introduced themselves to each other, they said hello?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we go down the page, if we look at the conversation itself,
8 and not the mentioning of the participants in the heading, in the very text
9 of the conversation we don't see the word "special" or "specials" anywhere,
10 do we?
11 A. You're right, we don't.
12 Q. Let us put aside the fact that it says "Borovcanin from the
13 specials" at the top. Let us look at the text only, the text of the
14 conversation as it stands. And we are now interested in the last name,
16 [Previous translation continues] ... [In English] It seems we
17 have some problem with the transcript.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You can tell me what the problem is.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, yes. I was asking for a private session
20 just very briefly. And I don't see -- see this recorded in the transcript.
21 THE INTERPRETER: If Mr. Lazarevic switches from B/C/S into
22 English without pause, then what happens is an overlap between the
23 interpreter and what he is actually saying in English, therefore the court
24 reporter cannot take down both.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And that's what I'm sure happened. So shall
1 we continue? Yeah, let's go into private session.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 5971-5972 redacted. Private session
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
10 Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, to be honest, I would invite Mr. Lazarevic to
13 repeat what he has just stated so it is on record in open session, and then
14 Mr. McCloskey can address it.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I'll do it. Well, at
16 this moment I would like the Prosecution to stipulate that they are not in
17 possession of the audio recording of the above-mentioned conversation and
18 they never had it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. I can simply say, yes, we
21 don't have such an audio recording; however, I would object to this as a
22 method to question the Prosecution mid-witness regarding stipulations. I
23 welcome stipulations, I would prefer them discussed outside of court so we
24 can properly prepare. There are a lot of intercepts, that would be a lot
25 of questions to ask the Prosecution. So there is no audio of this, but if
1 we could find a better way of getting at it, I would appreciate it.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Still no harm done, so I think we can proceed.
3 Have you finished with the witness, or not yet.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: By all means, that was my last question. I could
5 have asked the witness if he was aware of such a tape, but it was simpler
6 to do it with our colleagues. So I have no other questions.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
8 So there is still Mr. Meek and Mr. Haynes.
9 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President, we have no question of this
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Meek.
12 And Mr. Haynes.
13 MR. HAYNES: Mr. President, nor do I. Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That basically means we have concluded with this
15 witness, unless there is a re-examination or any questions on our part.
16 Mr. Nicholls, is there re-examination?
17 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could have one minute.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Very brief.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
21 Q. Sir, while you were being questioned by my colleague just now,
22 you said you wanted to explain more, and I think it was why you wrote down
23 "from the specials," and your explanation would have been according to your
24 practice, you could explain why that might be there. You said that you
25 would try to be as accurate as possible in any information you sent. If
1 you have anything more to explain about why you wrote that down "from the
2 specials," I think I would like to give you the opportunity.
3 A. The thing I wrote down, well, I can't recall exactly, but I still
4 remember the way I noted things down. Next to this piece of information,
5 there is no question mark which means that I was certain that the
6 information was true. And another thing, as for military communications,
7 only a limited number of soldiers has the right of access. Therefore, if
8 there are say a dozen Borovcanins in a unit, it is most likely that only
9 one has access to communication, whereas the rest do not.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
11 Judge Kwon, do you have any questions? Judge Prost, Judge Stole?
12 Witness, that brings your testimony to an end here. I wish to
13 thank you for coming over to give evidence, and our staff will assist you
14 to facilitate your return back home at the earliest. On behalf of
15 everyone, I wish you a safe journey back home.
16 Now, the next witness enjoys pseudonym and facial distortion
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, we can start dealing with the
20 tendering process. Defence teams have received a copy of the list of
21 documents that the Prosecution is seeking to tender. Is there any
23 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Basically I have the same objection as yesterday. It refers to the
1 audiotape, as mentioned in the documentation forwarded by the Prosecutor
2 under the number 1387D. I do not wish to repeat my reasons, as I've stated
3 those yesterday. Referring to the previous witness. The same stands
4 forces this one.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic, and that will be dealt
6 with the same way we dealt with it yesterday. If the Prosecution insists
7 in tendering it, because you didn't make use of it with this witness, no?
8 MR. NICHOLLS: I do tender it, Your Honour. To save time I
9 didn't play it, but what I had him do was confirm that it had been played
10 and that it was his intercept and it was the same one he had recorded in
11 the exhibit. And my response, I will rely on Mr. Thayer's representations
12 to the same issue yesterday.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That can be dealt with easily, with
14 relative ease. Any further objections?
15 So the first two of these documents, 2356 and 2357 will be
16 admitted and remain under seal and the rest is marked for identifications
17 purposes only with the understanding that the bold, the ones in bold
18 characters will be kept under seal until finally determined.
19 Then I think there are some Defence teams that wish to tender
20 some documents. Yes --
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have attached it. We
22 forwarded a list.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You didn't let me finish. I have two of you.
24 That's Madam Fauveau and yourself. Again, they are on lists that have been
25 submitted. In the case of the documents tendered by Madam Fauveau,
1 translation is still pending, so they will be marked for identification. I
2 take it there is no objection on your part?
3 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour. Although I think one of the
4 Popovic exhibits for submissions have already been submitted. It's same
5 one, but it's...
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is the same witness.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure Mr. Zivanovic agrees to that. There is no
10 The other two remaining would be 1D93, which will be marked for
11 identification purposes only, pending translation. And 1D156, and I hear
12 no objection, so that is admitted.
13 All right. Can we move to the next witness? Now, as regards
14 this next witness, the regime that we put in place the day before yesterday
15 will be in force. All right. I think you were right in your assessment,
16 Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And may I be excused for one minute? I
18 will be back, but don't wait for me.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you were right in your assessment, let us
20 hope it doesn't create us a problem.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You can start [microphone not activated].
23 Good afternoon to you, sir.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I welcome you to this Tribunal. You are soon going
1 to start giving evidence. I think you will feel very warm in that jacket
2 in here.
3 Our rules require that before you start giving evidence you
4 undertake to speak the truth. So Madam Usher is going to give you the text
5 of the solemn declaration you are required to enter. Please proceed.
6 WITNESS: PW-135
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. I could kindly take a seat, make
11 yourself comfortable.
12 Ms. Soljan, who I understand you have already met, will be
13 examining you in chief by reference to your witness statement of the 12th
14 May 1999. And then she will follow with a few questions, after which there
15 will be some cross-examinations from the Defence teams.
16 Ms. Soljan.
17 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Examination by Ms. Soljan:
19 Q. Good afternoon, witness. If I could please have the usher's
20 providing the witness with what has been marked for identification as
22 Witness, if you would please take a look at the piece of paper, without
23 reading the name out loud, please confirm that that is indeed your name?
24 You can just answer by saying "yes" if it is indeed?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you very much. That will go under seal and if you could
2 just -- thank you. Show it to our colleagues. Thank you very much.
3 Now, sir, do you recall providing information to the Office of
4 the Prosecutor in May of 1999?
5 A. Yes, I provided a statement.
6 Q. And you read your statement in my office a few days ago; isn't
7 that right?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. And are you satisfied that the statement is correct and accurate,
10 that the information in the statement is correct and accurate?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And if you were asked the same questions again, would you answer
13 in the same way?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, I will read a short summary of that
16 statement --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Soljan, before you do so. For the
18 record, this witness will be referred to as PW-134.
19 JUDGE KWON: 135.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Here I have it 134. 135, yes, correct. And in
21 addition, sir, you know that you have been also granted face distortion,
22 apart from the use of a pseudonym, as per the 16th November decision of the
23 Trial Chamber.
24 So go ahead, Ms. Soljan.
25 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I will proceed to now read
1 the short summary of the statement of May 1999.
2 The witness is a Bosnian Muslim who was bone in Tuzla in 1973.
3 He performed his mandatory service with the JNA in 1991 and 1992 during
4 which time he was attached to a signals unit and learned how to use various
5 types of communications equipment.
6 Now, Your Honours, if I could please go into private session for
7 the reading of the second paragraph since it contains sensitive
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. Let's go into private session for a
10 short while.
11 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 MS. SOLJAN: The witness's work practice followed the established
21 procedure of scanning, recording and transcribing intercepts into
22 notebooks. Normal practice was to work in six-hour shifts followed by a
23 six-hour break, depending on how busy it was. During the fall of
24 Srebrenica in 1995, everyone was working continuously. Over time, the
25 operators grew to know which channels were worth monitoring on particular
1 frequencies and became skilled at identifying the voices of many of the
2 monitored individuals.
3 The witness himself was able to recognise several voices of VRS
4 officers and code names.
5 That ends the summary of the statement which, for the record, is
7 Q. Now, sir, in the last few days did you review seven handwritten
8 copies of intercepts in a tabbed blue binder?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. And did you identify all seven of those as your
11 original handwriting?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Sir, did you also review those same intercepts in their original
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... also confirm that they were
17 your original handwriting?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And can you confirm, as you sit here before the Trial Chamber
20 today, that you have listened to, recorded and transcribed these seven
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Other than the handwritten intercepts, did you also have the
24 opportunity to take a look at the typed versions of these intercepts?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And in your review of the intercepts of the handwritten
2 intercepts and the typed version, did you notice that sometimes there were
3 differences between the notebook version and the typed version?
4 A. Yes, there were.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I would like to go to one
6 such intercept and ask you a couple of questions about it.
7 If we could please turn to 65 ter number 1122B and C. The B/C/S
8 handwritten as well as typed-up version. If it's possible to show those on
9 the same screen, that will ideal. If not, we can go from one to the other.
10 This is also the version that has been provided to the Defence under tab 2.
11 Now, sir, do you recognise this intercept?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... intercept?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And for the record, on -- right where we begin where we start
16 where it says 259.675, U, 18, and what appears to be 48.
17 Could we for a moment get version C of this very same intercept,
18 please. Blown up a little bit, please, and I believe it will actually
19 begin at ERN 0320-5261, page 2. If we could just scroll towards the bottom
20 of page 2. At the bottom of that page, if we could just focus in on the
21 intercept that also begins with the numbers 259. Right. 259.675.
22 Where the time is 1855. Can you see that, sir?
23 A. Yes, I see it.
24 Q. Now, could you tell us -- as we can all see, there is a
25 difference -- the frequency number appears to be the same. But there is a
1 difference between the hour, the hour determination in between the two, one
2 says -- the typed version says 1855, the handwritten version says 1848.
3 Could you explain for us, please, how that could be?
4 A. I can. It's easy. Possibly there was a mistake when that
5 intercept was being typed.
6 Q. Now, let's take a further look at this intercept, please. When
7 we look at the line below the time, in the handwritten intercept there is a
8 line which says -- well, in this version here we may need to put it up --
9 put the handwritten version on the ELMO for a little period of time because
10 it seems to be a little cut off, but it says "Rajko - Panorama - Panorama
12 Now, below that is the first, the beginning of the conversation,
13 and the very first line of the conversation in the typed intercept begins
14 with an X, identifies the speaker with an X. In your handwriting version
15 of the intercept, it identifies the first speaker as 03. Could you explain
16 that for us, sir? Is there -- is that a significant difference?
17 A. No. Both participants started with the same name, so during the
18 typing you would put the first letter or the initial, and so that the
19 encryption person could differentiate between them, he marked one as X and
20 the other one as panorama, the switchboard.
21 Q. So would it, in fact, be correct to say that what is in the
22 handwritten version identified as 03, is indeed equivalent to what is in
23 the typed version identified as X?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. And one more question. Now, if we can just
1 focus on the speaker identification on the first six lines of the
2 handwritten version. In the handwriting version, the first line is being
3 spoken by 03, second line is spoken by C, third line is spoken by 03,
4 fourth line is spoken by R. Fifth line is spoken by 03 again, and the
5 sixth line is spoken by R. So the rest of the conversation then continues
6 between R and 03. Can you see that?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 Q. Now, if we take a look at the typed version, the order is --
9 first line X, second line the speaker is C, third line the speaker is X,
10 fourth line the speaker is C, fifth line the speaker is R, and sixth line
11 the speaker is X and again it continues between R and X. Can you see that?
12 A. Yes, I can.
13 Q. Now, there appears to be a difference that begins as of line 4
14 between these two intercepts, the versions of the intercept. Could you
15 explain for the -- to the Trial Chamber what the difference is?
16 A. The difference is in line 4, it's a mistake. The starting
17 initials were mixed up from line 4 until the end of the conversation, so it
18 is a mistake in the transcription of the intercept.
19 Q. So you're saying the mistake began in the -- was -- took place in
20 the handwritten version of the intercept; is that right?
21 A. Yes. You can see that in the handwriting it is indicated.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object. Mr.
24 President, I object.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Object to what?
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] The question. It is a question of
2 knowing whether the mistake was made in the handwritten version. The
3 Prosecution is suggesting that the mistake was made in the handwritten
4 version. I object to this.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Perhaps you can rephrase the question,
6 although it has been answered already, but anyway.
7 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour, in fact, the witness just began
8 explaining this, and so I will indeed continue.
9 Q. Now, you had just mentioned, Witness, that in the handwritten
10 version it is indicated. Can you show to us what indeed is indicated in
11 the handwritten version? What happened?
12 A. In line 4, the beginning of line 4 is underlined, and from there
13 onwards the initials R and 03 were mixed. They were substituted.
14 Q. And could you indicate for the Court more precisely where exactly
15 is this line?
16 A. "Hey, that's you, Rajko Vlah here." From that point.
17 Q. Underneath the line that says [B/C/S spoken]; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, from that line. From that line [B/C/S spoken].
19 Q. Perhaps for easier viewing, it's been a little bit cut off in the
20 photocopied version. If we could place it on the ELMO so that this line
21 can be indicated more clearly.
22 Now, sir, can you maybe indicate, point with a pen where this
23 line is?
24 A. [Indicates].
25 Q. And you drew this line, sir? You had drawn this line; is that
1 correct? Don't -- yeah. At the time in 1995, when you -- when you took
2 down this intercept, did you write this line?
3 A. Yes, after transcribing the conversation, I concluded that there
4 was a mistake and so I told that the person who was retyping the
5 conversation and we made the correction.
6 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you very much.
7 I have no more questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Soljan.
9 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic. I saw you standing up. I presumed -- I
10 assumed that you wanted to say something.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I thought that we were now going
12 to begin the cross-examination, so that's why I stood up. I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, indeed. That's what we are going to do. What
14 surprised me is seeing you standing up, because the information that we
15 received at the beginning before this witness started to give evidence was
16 to the effect that only D4 and D5 would be cross-examining the witness.
17 You wish to cross-examine the witness as well? Go ahead. By all means.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Witness, we received
23 information about your conversation with the Prosecution before you came to
24 testify, or some days before you came to testify. Yesterday or the day
25 before. You remember that, I'm sure, that you talked with the Prosecutor?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I will remind you that in that conversation, amongst other
3 things, you said that the information about the direction of the
4 conversation and the azimuth were not noted down in the notebook because
5 the person who was typing it into the computer could conclude that on the
6 basis of the frequency and the channel; is this correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. You also said that you had your own personal notebook where you
9 noted information about the frequencies and the persons you were
10 surveilling, and then this notebook was destroyed after the war; is this
12 A. Yes, it's true. The notebook was destroyed in 1995 or 1996, I
13 don't remember.
14 Q. Can you please explain -- well, you also said that it was the
15 practice of many operators to have these personal notebooks, that they had
16 them also?
17 A. We can call them notebooks, but they were just personal notes.
18 You couldn't remember everything without them, so you just had these notes
19 with you.
20 Q. All right. So these were not proper notebooks, they were just
21 note pads, something like that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you please tell me what the difference was between the note
24 pads and the notebooks that you received from the command?
25 A. The notebooks that came from the command were used only to
1 transcribe intercepts while these private notebooks, note pads, mine, for
2 example, contained all kinds of things.
3 Q. Can you please tell me, when you say "all sorts of things," I
4 assume that they're personal and private notes of yours, but from what I
5 was able to see from this information from the Prosecutor, this private
6 note pad or notebook of yours also contained information about frequencies
7 and the persons that you were monitoring; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Can you explain why this official information was entered into
10 this personal notebook or note pad?
11 A. Well, there were many names, many frequencies, many things, and
12 you would forget them in time. But after a certain amount of time, it was
13 very useful. You would use it again. So we would use that to just
14 recollect -- refresh or recollection to see what was what.
15 Q. Did you ever put information from your personal notebooks into
16 the official notebook?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You also said that at the location where you worked, and I'm not
19 going to mention the name, that there was just one person in charge of
20 entering the information into a computer, and in order to help him
21 operators frequently entered their own text into the computer. Was that
22 how it was?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you also do that?
25 A. In some cases, yes.
1 Q. When you did that at the time, did you also encrypt this text
2 that you had typed into the computer?
3 A. No.
4 Q. The text that you typed into the computer and sent, did you also
5 send it?
6 A. No, I was just helping my colleague by typing the text, but the
7 encryption and sending off of the text was something that the colleague
8 did. We were not authorised to do that.
9 Q. You heard my learned friend, the Prosecutor, reading that in the
10 fall -- during the fall of Srebrenica, all of you worked constantly; in
11 other words, there was more work than usual. You were under more pressure
12 than usual.
13 A. Yes, that is correct. We worked for 20 hours a day.
14 Q. You mean daily shifts, during the course of the day, you all
15 worked for 20 hours?
16 A. Yes, from the early morning hours until late at night sometimes.
17 Q. Can you please tell me how many devices or workstations you had
18 at the time?
19 A. I'm not sure if I will be able to give you a correct answer. I
20 think there were two or three multi-channel combinations, and also the same
21 for single-channel devices.
22 Q. You will remember that the first time you had contacts with the
23 Tribunal was through an investigator when you gave a statement. This was
24 sometime -- actually, this was on the 6th and the 12th of May, 1999. Do
25 you remember that?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. On that occasion, you said that sometimes you didn't have enough
3 notebooks and that you had to write down the conversations in the same
4 format as you did in the notebooks, but on a piece of paper. Do you recall
5 saying that?
6 A. Yes. They were just sheets of paper which were already used on
7 one side and then we would use the back of the sheet of paper, which was
8 clean, to write down on -- there was a shortage of paper at the time.
9 Q. The things that you noted down on those sheets of paper, when you
10 didn't have notebooks, did you enter the information from those sheets of
11 paper into your personal notebook?
12 A. No. We did not, because we didn't have these books then. I mean
13 if we had them, we wouldn't have had to use the sheets of paper.
14 Q. You didn't even have this note pad that we talked about before,
15 this personal notebook, this is what I was thinking of?
16 A. Yes, yes, I did have that. But it's a small diary, it's a small
17 pad, so I wouldn't be able to put all of that in there.
18 Q. Later, did you enter that into the notebook that you received
19 from the command, once you received it from the command?
20 A. You mean did we transfer the information from the sheets of paper
21 into this official notebook or from my personal notebook?
22 Q. Meaning the sheets of paper -- the information from the sheets of
23 paper, was that entered into the notebooks once you get them -- once you
24 got them?
25 A. No, this was later just clipped together, and it was probably
1 kept in some archive, I actually don't know where these sheets of paper
2 were kept.
3 Q. I have one more question. Do you remember how many notebooks
4 were used at the same time, I'm talking about from the command now, I'm not
5 talking about these personal notebooks of yours.
6 A. There was the same number of notebooks as workstations, more or
8 Q. You said earlier -- and you mentioned that you mean two or three,
9 these combinations?
10 A. Yes. Each workstation was supposed to have a notebook.
11 Q. And this notebook - actually, you received a fresh notebook only
12 once the -- ones you were using were completely full; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I have
15 no further questions for the witness.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
17 Just to make sure now, we will try to update this list. Beara
18 Defence, do you have any questions?
19 MR. MEEK: No, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Nikolic?
21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: The Borovcanin team, you have 20 minutes.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: If this is agreeable to you, Mr. Stojanovic, rather
25 than starting now and stopping in five minutes' time for the break and then
1 resuming, I suggest we take the break straight away now and we need 25
2 minutes now, no? 25 minutes, and then you start immediately after the
3 break. Thank you.
4 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness, I'm going to put some
9 questions to you relating to one intercept.
10 Could we please look at Exhibit PO1140P in the e-court system in
11 the B/C/S version and then we also would like to use PO1140A and we would
12 need that document in the English version. Otherwise, Your Honours, on the
13 65 ter list it's Prosecution number 1140, and it's in tab 6. Thank you.
14 Sir, do you see in front of you to the right an intercept in
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Is that your handwriting?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. In view of the time that you marked and the date that we have,
20 and that's from before, and we know that it's the 13th of July at 1530
21 hours, could you please help us and tell us, in view of the channel and the
22 frequency that you were monitoring, can you please tell us where the X and
23 Y speakers are located or approximately where they are located?
24 A. Well, I couldn't tell you that now.
25 Q. Can you please help us and read this word that you wrote down in
1 the area of, and then it's a word that is perhaps a geographical name or a
2 toponym or something?
3 A. I think the word is Uducac.
4 Q. Have you heard of the -- of Mount Udric, and is it something that
5 is familiar to you in view of the area you come from?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you agree with me that Mount Udric is in eastern Bosnia, to
8 the south of the town of Zvornik?
9 A. I think that is so, but I'm not 100 per cent sure.
10 Q. Is it possible that in listening to this intercept instead of the
11 Udric sector, you heard and wrote down the word sector Uducac?
12 A. What is written here, I think, is supposed to be the way it is
13 written, otherwise I would have marked it with a question mark or dots or
14 something, or I would simply call my colleagues and we would listen back to
15 it together, so I do believe that this is how it is supposed to be written.
16 Q. And have you ever heard of Uducac as a toponym or a geographical
18 A. No.
19 Q. And finally, I would like to ask you the following: In view of
20 the fact that you said that there were sometimes differences between the
21 handwritten text and the typed text that was sent for crypto-protection, if
22 there are differences which of those two texts, according to you, is more
23 authentic and more accurate?
24 A. Well, the one -- the authentic one that has been -- that is the
25 transcription of the recording is more accurate. It's more accurate than
1 the typewritten text.
2 Q. Which one would be sent to the superior command?
3 A. The typewritten text would be sent to the superior command.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
5 questions for this witness, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 Madam Fauveau.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, is it fair to say when started working
11 in the unit in the northern location, you worked first on jamming and
12 scrambling telephone conversations?
13 A. In the beginning I worked as a scrambler, but not of telephone
14 conversations, but of tactical connections.
15 Q. When you stopped working as a scrambler, did the other members in
16 your unit carry on this work of scrambling or jamming telephone
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Because -- we need to clear this. In spite of the
20 witness's previous answer, namely that he was not referring to scrambling
21 telephone conversations but tactical communications, connections, your
22 subsequent question referred to telephone conversations. And he has now
23 also answered in relation to telephone conversations. I think we need to
24 have it clear whether we are talking of telephone conversations or other
25 sorts of conversations that were being scrambled.
1 I leave it in your hands, Madam Fauveau, I just wanted to make it
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think there must have been a
4 mistake in the translation. I talked about tactical conversations that the
5 witness mentioned. I worked scrambling -- I talked about scrambling in
6 general. It might be in our best interests to repeat the question.
7 Q. Sir, when you stopped working as a scrambler of tactical
8 conversations, did anybody carry on with that work after you?
9 A. Yes, the unit continued to be in existence, but I was not part of
11 Q. In your statement you made for the Prosecution in 1999, you said
12 that you reused the tapes when they were full. When you reused the tapes,
13 did the conversations recorded on the tape, were they erased or did you
14 rerecord on the tapes you had rewound?
15 A. When we were short of tapes, we would rerecord them. If there
16 was an order from the command to leave a particular intercept on the tape,
17 that would be left and sent to the archives. Everything else would be
18 recorded over.
19 Q. And when the tapes were reused and new conversations were
20 recorded over the previous conversations, could it happen that the
21 recording was not perfect and that the two conversations would overlap; the
22 older one and the more recent one?
23 A. No, it couldn't happen. There is, however, a possibility that
24 after multiple use the recording wouldn't be of the same quality, but the
25 old recording would always be erased and there was no possibility of the
1 two overlapping.
2 Q. You said earlier on that sometimes you would type in the
3 conversations in the computer, but somebody else would encrypt them and
4 send them. When you typed in a conversation on the computer, would you put
5 your initials below this conversation?
6 A. Usually I would put my initials there, but it wasn't a practice.
7 The only thing that was important to note down was to mark the spot to
8 which a particular conversation had been transcribed, to put it in the
10 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to see
11 Exhibit P1122, P1122B, and P1122C. The English version would be A and D.
12 Q. Sir, just before, in this conversation there is mention made of
13 panorama. Would it be correct to say that this was a coded name of a unit
14 of Republika Srpska?
15 A. Yes, it was their code-name.
16 Q. And do you know whether the army of Republika Srpska would often
17 change these coded names?
18 A. I think some code names were around for quite a long time.
19 Q. And as for this particular name, Panorama, do you know when you
20 heard it for the first time?
21 A. I cannot recall an exact time, since in certain situations --
22 well, say you receive an order to monitor another direction, another
23 channel, and then there is a month or two that you haven't used a
24 particular frequency and you don't hear the same code-names and then you go
25 back to the old names. Therefore, I really cannot say when I heard of that
1 name for the first time.
2 Q. Do you know by any chance in what year that might have been? Was
3 it 1994, 1995, or even 1993?
4 A. I can't say. I don't know.
5 Q. Sir, when we look at this conversation, it's Exhibit 1122D, could
6 we show the second page? Excuse me, it's probably my mistake. It was
7 1122C. And the second page, please.
8 Sir, when one looks at these two conversations on the first line,
9 the first line reads, "Is the big boss there?" It appears that this was
10 uttered by Panorama 03. Do you agree?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then further on on the second line, there is one person on
13 the typewritten version, which is named the C speaker, could you tell us
14 who this might be? I'm not asking you to tell their name, but do you know
15 who this might have been, what this person's responsibility was and why
16 this person was mentioned as C?
17 A. I think it was the switchboard's name, the operator's.
18 Q. And this operator, unlike Panorama 03, would have been the
19 Panorama speaker?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does this seem logical to you that Panorama 03, which was
22 probably located in Panorama, would call Panorama?
23 A. In this case he was asking to go via the switchboard, and why
24 wouldn't they?
25 Q. So according to you, it's Panorama 03 who is located in Panorama
1 who is calling the operator in Panorama?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you sure this operator was not located elsewhere? For
4 example, where the person called Rajko was located?
5 A. I don't know where he was. I only transcribed what I hear. As
6 for where he was, well, I don't know.
7 Q. And how did you identify this operator as being the operator of
8 the Panorama location?
9 A. If you are doing things for quite a long time, you recognise
10 people. Just before we started recording, I think he introduced himself.
11 There was a mention of the Panorama switchboard.
12 Q. You said that when you realised that there was a mistake on line
13 4, line 4 of the handwritten version, which is underlined, that you spoke
14 to the person who had typed this conversation and that you corrected this
16 A. [No interpretation].
17 Q. Who corrected this mistake? You or the person who typed the
19 A. I made the correction, because the typist wasn't allowed to make
20 any corrections. He was supposed to type what was taken down in
22 Q. What you're saying, I do understand, but the problem is that you
23 only underlined, you did not make any corrections following that, and for
24 example cross out 03 and putting R instead or crossing out R and putting 03
25 instead. How could possibly the operator know exactly what this line
1 refers to, what you wrote on line 4?
2 A. Well, the operator was in the room adjacent to mine. It sufficed
3 that I tell him where the error was, and then I didn't need to make a
4 correction because he would.
5 Q. And how did you understand that there was a mistake in this
7 A. Further on in the conversation. We have the time and the names,
8 and then you realise there was a mistake, that you've mixed up the
9 initials. Things like that.
10 Q. And do you know why, why the person who typed this conversation
11 did not put down 03 for Panorama 03 or P, and rather wrote down X instead?
12 A. I think it was entered so as to make typing easier. Otherwise
13 you would have had two Ps and it would be difficult to distinguish.
14 Q. But, sir, in the typewritten text there is no P. Indeed there is
15 an X, a C, and an R. Why in this case would it have been difficult to use
16 P or 03 to be absolutely different or to differentiate them?
17 A. First of all, I think they wanted to make sure that Panorama was
18 the switchboard. And as for 03, so as not to put the whole name, Panorama
19 03, it was easier for him to put an X there.
20 Q. Sir, is it correct to say that one -- that normally one writes an
21 X when the person speaking is unknown?
22 A. Yes, when you don't know who the speakers are, we used Xs and Ys.
23 Q. Is it possible that the person who was typing X, who typed X
24 preferred to put an X because it wasn't certain that the person who was
25 speaking was Panorama number 3, 03?
1 A. No. He was supposed to type the report as it was in the
2 handwriting. It wasn't up to him to decide.
3 Q. You just said that the person was typing should exactly type the
4 report as the conversation was in the notebook, and in the notebook there
5 is 03 written and it's an X in the report. Could you explain this?
6 A. Yes. It is an error. But that correction was done with my
8 Q. Therefore, you were giving your consent. Instead of 03, you
9 accepted an X to be typed?
10 A. No. I think I just told you that it was to make it easier for
11 him to type. An X doesn't represent anything to him, because we know who
12 the speaker is, we saw it in the heading at the beginning. We know who the
13 X is.
14 Q. If I understand you rightly, for convenience's sake for the
15 person who was typing for the computer, the report sent to your superior
16 command were -- there where the report was sent was not quite accurate;
17 isn't it true?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Soljan.
19 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour, in fact, I object because it's, in
20 fact, speculative to the state of mind and it is not exactly restating what
21 the witness just answered.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't see -- we don't see it speculative the way
23 you do, Ms. Soljan, so go ahead, answer the question, please. And the
24 question was as follows: "If I understood you correctly, for convenience's
25 sake for the persons who was typing for the computer, the report sent to
1 your superior --" one moment. "The report sent to your superior command
2 were -- there where the report was sent was not quite accurate; isn't it
4 It's being put to you that because of what you have testified,
5 answering the last questions, reports sent to the superior command would
6 not be accurate. What's your answer to that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not agree with that. I think
8 there must have been -- I think they were supposed to be typed the way they
9 were taken down by hand. That's all I have to say.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Sir, concerning this specific report and to conclude on this
12 subject, do you agree that the version which was typed is quite different
13 from the handwritten version, starting by the number of the frequency, the
14 time, and finishing with the participants, collocutors, and the order of
15 people who were speaking. Would you agree?
16 A. Yes. I think there is an error in terms of the time and that the
17 speakers' order was reversed at a certain point, their initials. I think
18 this is as far as the changes go, compared to the original.
19 Q. And the frequency is also different, isn't it?
20 A. I think the frequency is the same.
21 Q. Could you read what is written on your handwritten text?
22 A. 259.675.
23 Q. In that case -- I'm sorry, in that case, I'm sorry, I thought it
24 was 54.
25 You said that you received orders and listened for a certain
1 period apart from the territory and during another period another part of
2 the territory, you were monitoring those. Do you remember when, and I'm
3 asking you when but not a precise date, when you received the order to
4 monitor oriental [as interpreted] Bosnia where the Drina Corps was.
5 A. I cannot recall at what time or on what date exactly. But we
6 worked on it for quite a long time, even before the events there.
7 Q. Do you remember whether you listened to conversations coming from
8 Sarajevo Corps, from the Sarajevo front. Did you monitor those?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you monitored those conversations during the fights around
11 Sarajevo in June 1995; isn't it so?
12 A. No. When I said we monitored conversations within the area of
13 responsibility of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, I had in mind the part of
14 the territory facing our location, not the other part of Sarajevo.
15 Q. And where -- which were these parts which were close to the place
16 where you were, your site?
17 A. They were not close to our location. However, from the place
18 where we were, we followed what we could, what was possible.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no other questions, Mr.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau. I take it that there are
22 no questions from the Gvero team. Any questions for the Pandurevic team?
23 MR. HAYNES: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Any re-examination?
25 MS. SOLJAN: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So we're finished with your testimony, sir, for
2 which I thank you on behalf of the Tribunal. Our staff will assist you now
3 to facilitate your return back home at the earliest. On behalf of
4 everyone, I wish you a safe journey back home.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents. Prosecution has kindly provided us with
8 a list of documents that they wish to tender. First of which I suppose are
9 no -- there cannot be any problems, the witness statement and his pseudonym
10 sheet. So they are being admitted under seal. The rest are all
11 intercepts, and with the usual caveat, I hear no objections in the first
12 place, so they will be marked for identification purposes, pending the
13 resolution of the existing conversations regarding the intercepts on which
14 we will be approaching you by means of an order, either today or tomorrow.
15 I think I have even signed it already.
16 So I am told we need 10 minutes to install the telephone. Wasn't
17 it installed before already?
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It's okay. I mean I am just -- I know
20 that the staff are extremely cooperative. So we need 10 minutes to change
21 the microphone. Sorry, I said telephone before, but -- yes, Madam Fauveau.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Just before we stop, it's a witness
23 to be heard according to Article 92 ter. We received the statement today,
24 that's the problem, and this statement does not exist in B/C/S. I know
25 this is not very popular, but I would like this deposition not to continue
1 and request to cross-examine this witness tomorrow so that the witness can
2 take recognisance [as interpreted] of this statement.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for that, Madam Fauveau. Yes, I see
4 you are in competition. Whoever.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,
6 counsel. The statement actually does now exist in B/C/S. We had the
7 statement translated while the other witness was testifying. The original
8 statement was actually typed, transcribed today. So we do have it
9 available for counsel's inspection. I know that she has -- at least I
10 believe she has the English version and has had that for -- I think since
11 maybe a little bit after 1.00 or just about 1.30. So we do have the B/C/S
12 version for your inspection.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just want to
15 correct this here. It was not for the direct examination, I said I had
16 nothing against a direct examination today, it's only for the...
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Cross-examination.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] -- cross-examination.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: The statement, just so that you are aware, it is
20 about two pages single-spaced. Also the substance of the statement is
21 essentially contained in proofing note provided to counsel as well. So
22 there is no substantive difference between what is contained in the
23 statement, the B/C/S version, obviously the English version or the proofing
24 note. But I do understand counsel's concern, and I think it's not a
25 problem for her to examine it.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are talking of witness number 176, aren't we? I
2 just want to make sure that we're talking of the same one.
3 JUDGE KWON: PW-151.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, it's the
6 witness who is supposed to just arrive. Another thing, the proofing notes
7 we just received them now. I have just received them 15 minutes ago. And
8 here it is not a statement, is it a statement of one page or two pages? It
9 is a question of Rule 66, which requests the Prosecutor to show us this in
10 a language which the accused understands. I think we should have the time
11 to be able to consult our client.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will discuss it outside. May I ask
13 a question to the rest of the Defence teams. Could you indicate whether
14 you have discussed amongst yourselves first the partitioning of the time
15 limit, the two hours 40 minutes -- or two hours 20 minutes, or whether you
16 are going to go for the 20 minutes each? And also, if there are, amongst
17 you, who would like not to cross-examine the witness at all? That would
18 help us so it is out.
19 In the meantime, I was going to suggest that instead of breaking
20 now for 10 minutes until they fix the microphone, we could have a full
21 break of 25 minutes, which would give -- or 20 minutes which would give
22 Madam Fauveau the chance to read through it and then if there are really
23 serious concerns you can come back to us and we will deal with your
24 concerns adequately, depending on how serious they are, obviously. All
25 right. So we will have a 25-minute break starting from now. And we'll
1 take it up after that. All right? Thank you.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Please correct eastern Bosnia instead of
3 oriental Bosnia.
4 --- Recess taken at 4.47 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 5.13 p.m.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: So I understand we can start with this witness,
9 So good afternoon to you, sir. I wish to welcome you in this
10 trial, where you are going to give evidence. Before you start your
11 evidence however, you are required to enter a solemn -- make a solemn
12 declaration that you will testify the truth. The text is going to be
13 handed to you by Madam Usher. Please stand up and read it out so that we
14 can hear you and that will be your undertaking with us that you will
15 testify the truth.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-151
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, sir. Please make yourself
21 comfortable. Mr. Vanderpuye will be asking you a few questions and he will
22 be making reference to a statement that you gave on the 16th of January of
23 this year. And then we will -- after that we will move to the cross-
24 examination. I am hopeful that within a very short time you will be out of
25 this courtroom and after that soon on your way back home.
1 Mr. Vanderpuye.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your
3 Honours, ladies and gentlemen. I would like to have the pseudonym sheet,
4 please, shown to the witness. For the record, it's PO2364.
5 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
6 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you please take a look at that and can
7 you tell us without telling us what's on it, whether or not you are the
8 person named on that document?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think there's a
11 mistake about witness P151 and it's not the right number which is given.
12 On line 1, page 50, line 1.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness PW-151. Thank you for pointing that out.
14 And the important thing is that it is corrected.
15 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye. Thank you, Madam Fauveau.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you a few questions. Please try to
18 keep your voice up so that the interpreter can hear you, and try to allow a
19 small pause between question and answer so that everyone can keep up.
20 Did you give a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor signed
21 and dated 17th January 2007?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Vanderpuye. Is it 17th or 16th?
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's actually signed and dated the 17th.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead. I just wondered because in the
1 list of documents you intend to use, yeah, that's correct. But it's
2 indicated as the 16th.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I apologise for that.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right. I just make things clear.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: We're talking about the same document. Okay.
6 Q. Was the statement that you gave at that time a truthful one?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you have the opportunity to have your statement read to you
9 before coming to testify today?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And was that done in your native language?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what language is that?
14 A. Bosnian.
15 Q. Does the statement as read to you fairly and accurately reflect
16 your declaration or what you said?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And does your -- does the statement fairly and accurately reflect
19 what you would say were you to be examined here today?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: At this time I would move to have the statement
22 admitted in evidence under 92 ter?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I read a brief summary of the statement?
25 I'm sorry, for the record it's PO2363.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 The witness completed electro-technical high school in 1990 and
4 was soon thereafter called upon to complete his compulsory military
5 obligation with the JNA.
6 May I go into private session for just a moment?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's go into private session.
8 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: In 1993, the witness was assigned to the
22 southern site of the Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit, PEB, as an intercept
23 operator. Upon his arrival to the PEB, the witness received instructions
24 concerning the operate of the equipment and began processing intercepted
25 communications in conformity with an established procedure, which entailed
1 taping intercepted communications and manually transcribing them into
3 The witness remained in the ABiH or the army, I should say, of
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina until he was demobilised in 1997.
5 That concludes my 92 ter summary.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: I just have a few questions I'd like to put to
8 the witness, if I may.
9 Q. Witness, can you tell us in 1995 what your position was in the
11 A. I was a soldier and an operator operating the equipment at the
12 location that was mentioned.
13 Q. Prior to your assignment as an operator, did you hold any other
14 position in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, have you had an opportunity to review a packet containing
17 three tabs of intercepted communications?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in particular, did you review the handwritten material that's
20 contained in the packet?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you recognise the handwriting in two of the three tabs as
23 that of your own?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And was that in relation to two intercepted communications that
1 occurred on 15th July 1995?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Now, did you transcribe or write that material into a
4 notebook pursuant to your responsibilities and duties as an intercept
5 operator assigned to the southern site of the Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review the original notebook
8 containing these handwritten intercepts?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Are you satisfied that the copies of the two intercepts that are
11 yours contained in the packet conform to the originals that you reviewed?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And were you able to -- were you able to confirm the date of the
14 two intercepts transcribed in the original notebook as the 15th July 1995?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I have -- I'd like to put one of the
17 original notebooks, please, on the ELMO. That is PO2242. For the record,
18 the ERN number of the page displayed should be 0080-1719. Okay. Can we
19 zoom out just a little bit, please?
20 Q. Okay. If you could just indicate for the record, and for the
21 benefit of the Court, is that your handwriting that's depicted below the
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And, in fact, is that your handwriting that -- did you write the
25 date that appears on that particular page?
1 A. The date and everything else is in my handwriting.
2 Q. Okay. I would just like to draw your attention to a couple of
3 things. Is it possible to have the English translation which is 65 ter
4 1172A displayed, please? Thank you.
5 Witness, I would just like to draw your attention to something
6 that appears in your notebook that has been translated as, "Did the cork
7 pop anywhere," which is on the top right-hand side of the English
8 translation as it appears, also on the top right-hand side of the page of
9 your notebook. Are you able to see your notebook on the monitor? Okay.
10 Could you indicate where that phrase appears in your notebook? If you
11 could just -- I think you can point to it, put your finger underneath and
12 show us where it appears.
13 A. [Indicates].
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Yes, it's there, you can see it.
16 Q. Now you've pointed to a part of the text that appears to be --
17 oops, okay. About four lines down. Could you point to it once again so we
18 can see clearly exactly where it is?
19 A. [Indicates].
20 Q. Okay. You're indicating a mark that you placed in your notebook;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us what that mark corresponds to on the page of your
24 notebook as it's displayed before you now?
25 A. When you are writing a text out, some things sometimes you don't
1 hear all that well. I didn't understand very well what was said at that
2 point, and so I put an asterisk there. And then I continued to work on it.
3 When I was finished transcribing with the -- the whole text, I went back to
4 that part again and with the help of my colleagues, I managed to decipher
5 what was said. And this was then written later at the top, at the top of
6 the text. And the asterisks were -- was placed there as a reminder for
7 people who were typing the text out later, where that part is supposed to
9 Q. And is that part supposed to go where you've placed the asterisk
10 or below where you've placed the asterisk?
11 A. That part goes just underneath the place where I put the
12 asterisk. The last part that is written actually is said by one person,
13 the sentence ends there. Then another person, there are different initials
14 in front of the next, so that part of the text is spoken by another person
16 Q. Is that part of the text the phrase, "Did the cork pop anywhere?"
17 Or something to that effect?
18 A. Could you please repeat your question?
19 Q. Yes. The portion that corresponds to the asterisk, is that
20 located on the top right where you initially pointed, of this page? Just
21 beneath the date on the right?
22 A. That part is supposed to go into a new line.
23 Q. Is that part -- is that part translated as, "Did the cork pop
24 anywhere?" Or something to that effect?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can I just refer you -- if we could just pull out, zoom out for
2 just a little bit and go down the page. A little further down, please.
3 Just -- exactly. Down the page. That's right. Okay.
4 In the lower part of the page there appear to be a series of
5 statements that aren't attributed a particular letter or anything of that
6 nature. Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That begins somewhere around -- is where the statement is, "Is
9 Golic there?"
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us in sequence who -- who the following statements
12 should be attributed to in your notebook transcription?
13 A. I do not wish to state this openly. Can we please move to
14 private session?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: You can repeat your question.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'll do my best. I'm not sure I quite recall
4 Q. I think I'd asked whether you could tell us who the collocutors
5 are following the reference in the text of your handwritten materials to
6 the statement, "Is Golic there?"
7 A. After that question, Mijatovic came on.
8 Q. Okay. And following -- following that, can you tell us if there
9 are any other statements that should be attributed to either P, which
10 you've indicated here is Pandurevic, or M, meaning Mijatovic or Milosevic?
11 A. As the text continues, the conversation is between Pandurevic and
13 Q. So the record is clear, the statement or question from below, do
14 you see that in your text?
15 A. "Is Golic there?" Yes.
16 Q. Okay. "Is Golic there?" You see that in your text. The next
17 statement, "Here, the old places, Jasikovci, Planinci, and there's a
18 statement following that, "Are there any infiltrated groups?" Do you see
19 that in your text?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who should that be attributed to?
22 A. To Mijatovic.
23 Q. Then there appears to be a response that says, "From below?" Do
24 you see that?
25 A. That is -- just one moment, please. That is more a question than
1 an answer.
2 Q. Well, can you say if you recall who is asking it?
3 A. Pandurevic.
4 Q. Okay. Can you go to the next line and just tell us?
5 A. Mijatovic.
6 Q. The next question, "From which battalion?" Is that attributable
7 to Mr. Pandurevic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the statement following that, is that attributable to Mr.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Could I just have briefly the page turned on -
13 - in the notebook to ERN number 1 -- ending 1721? And that corresponds to
14 tab 3 in the packet. 1721, please. Okay. Thank you. The first two lines
15 of this particular intercept don't appear to be attributed to anybody.
16 Can you tell us, so the record is clear, who those lines should
17 be attributable to, or attributed to?
18 A. The first speaker is Pandurevic. The second speaker is Jokic.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Thank you for that.
20 I have no further questions at this time.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
22 Mr. Zivanovic, I understand you want to cross-examine the
23 witness. Go ahead.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. Yesterday you gave a statement to the Prosecutor. I would just
3 like you to clarify a couple of things. You said in the statement, among
4 other things, that at the location where you were there were two or three
5 sets of equipment usually; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You said that you worked in shifts of four hours each; is that
8 correct? And you said that two operators worked in the shifts from 6.00 in
9 the morning until 10.00 at night; is that correct?
10 A. No.
11 Q. I'm going to read exactly what it says in the translation of the
12 statement. "Two operators worked in a shift during the day from 0600 to
13 2200 hours." Is that correct?
14 A. Two in shifts, in shifts of four hours each.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. I'm going to read the previous sentence also. "Normally, we were
18 using two or three sets and we worked in shifts for four hours. Two
19 intercept operators were working in one shift during the day from 6.00 a.m.
20 until 10.00 p.m., one operator during the night from 10.00 p.m. until 6.00
21 a.m." Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
25 Q. I would like to know whether this also applies to 1995, since I
1 couldn't see that from the statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. My last question, if you can recall, is this: Do you know
4 exactly what type of antennae was used at the facility?
5 A. No.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, no further questions.
7 Thank you, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. I would like to
9 confirm the Beara team that you have no cross-examination.
10 MR. MEEK: That's correct, Your Honour. We have no questions.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Meek.
12 The Nikolic team?
13 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Nikolic.
15 The Borovcanin team.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: No cross-examine, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And I understand Madam Fauveau has a cross-
18 examination for the witness. Go ahead.
19 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Just a question. Could we possibly come back to
21 pages 201719 of the notebook? It's P2242. Could we show the part in which
22 the names of participants are missing? It's towards the bottom. Perfect.
23 Sir, can you explain why you didn't put down the initials of the
24 persons speaking at the time?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And can you explain why you didn't put them down?
2 A. Simply because I was trying to work as fast as I could, and each
3 new participant receives a new line and a new initial.
4 Q. Do you know whether other operators always -- or rather did the
5 same thing, which is not to always note the initials?
6 A. No.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau. I take it that the
10 Gvero team haven't got any cross-examination?
11 MR. JOSSE: Confirmed, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: And same as regards the Pandurevic team?
13 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, yes. Or no, rather.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there any re-examination, Mr. Vanderpuye?
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think I have just one follow-up question.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
18 Q. I previously referred you to page ERN number 1719, where you
19 indicated for the Court the sequence in which the conversation unfolded.
20 Were you able to compare that to the printed version of that intercept and
21 is the printed version correct?
22 A. Both yes and no.
23 Q. Well, is it correct with respect to the particular sequence that
24 you described for the Court as to the speakers?
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. Objection.
1 This is a suggestive question.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, perhaps also apart from that, Mr. Vanderpuye
3 had explained to us how his question is rooted in the -- to the cross-
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry? I think it's --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Why do you consider this is a re-examination?
7 Where does it flow from?
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: It flows from my colleague's question concerning
9 the practice of not noting down or some intercept operators not noting down
10 particular participants in a given sequence, and I'm merely asking the
11 witness whether or not he can confirm that the sequence he relayed to the
12 Court is accurate, one, given what he's examined, which is his notebook,
13 and he's -- and I'm asking whether or not he's examined a printout and
14 whether or not that's -- the sequence was correct with respect to that.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you have already asked him that, but I
16 think we can stop there, Mr. Vanderpuye.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very well, Judge.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: No further questions, I take it. Judge Kwon, Judge
19 Prost, Judge Stole.
20 Sir, your testimony comes to an end here. I wish to thank you
21 for having come over to give evidence. Our staff will assist you and help
22 you return back over at the earliest. On behalf of everyone here, I wish
23 you a safe journey back home.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed with the documents tendering process.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me help you and get it over --
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- quickly. There are two documents that the
6 Prosecution wishes to tender. One is the witness statement and the other
7 one is the pseudonym sheet. They are both being admitted under seal.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Then there are intercepts, three intercepts, as per
10 the list, that has been --
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: There will be only two, Mr. President. In
12 sequence, that is at tab 2 and tab 3, ERN numbers -- I'm sorry, the 65 ter
13 number 1172, A through D. And 1174, A through D. My understanding is that
14 the notebook is in evidence already -- I mean has been tendered.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And then there are handwritten notebooks number 15
16 and 101 which, according to you, have already been tendered?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. In relation to this particular witness
18 though, only notebook 101 should really be considered, because...
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So that --
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: PO2242.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It's two intercepts plus one notebook.
22 I hear no objection. They will be marked for identification purposes for
23 the time being.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I mean Madam Registrar is informing me that
1 Prosecution haven't made it -- that some of -- there will be tendered under
2 seal. I leave it in your hands. You liaise with the registrar, and we
3 don't need to get involved in that any further.
4 Now, we -- where do we stand, Mr. McCloskey?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we have one more witness. I will
6 be leading that witness, but it will be extremely short on direct. The --
7 he is a member of the 21st Division, which we haven't had before, but it
8 still will be very short on direct. And that was the last witness we had
9 planned, based on our -- our judgement of the previous witnesses, which I
10 apologise, was just wrong. And we didn't keep -- we didn't catch up with
11 the Court's ruling in time. I've looked into getting people here to make
12 up for that, and I have been unable to. It's complicated, but as you know,
13 it is a question of visas and bringing people around. I know how serious
14 this is, I hate to waste even a moment on a Friday, but that's where we
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So the next witness, is he available now?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, the witness is arriving from Bosnia tonight.
18 I will be seeing the witness in the morning and be giving a brief statement
19 in both languages to counsel, hopefully around noon.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think there is no other alternative
21 for the time being. In the meantime, assuming, if I read you well, that we
22 won't need the entire sitting of tomorrow to finish this -- with this --
23 with this next witness, I would suggest again reiterate what I suggested
24 earlier, that you try to liaise the two sides, the two parties, to see if
25 and how we could utilise in a profitable way the time remaining tomorrow
1 and also Friday morning. If you can find a common denominator or common
2 ground, please come back. But we can visit that again tomorrow. In the
3 meantime, I think we have no option for today except to adjourn. I don't
4 think -- yes, Madam Fauveau? She's raising something to keep us occupied
5 for two days.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
7 apologise. I was waiting for the French translation to be through. I am
8 slightly concerned about the witness arriving tomorrow. If we manage to
9 organise things so easily today, because this witness was repeating or not
10 repeating what the other witness said today, but even if it wasn't the same
11 witness, so the witness coming tomorrow is a witness who comes from the
12 21st Division and we have no idea what this witness will be talking about.
13 We might not have any problems but we might request what I already
14 requested today which is that if there are any new things, new topics
15 raised tomorrow in this witness's statement that we have a chance to cross-
16 examine this witness on Friday.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We'll play it by the ear. We have to
19 -- we know even less than you do what this witness will be stating.
20 So Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: He is an intercept operator, it's the same story,
22 I can't imagine much that would be new. Obviously it is a different unit,
23 so questions about what might be different are appropriate, but this is the
24 same thing. So I don't imagine it will be much different. It won't be
25 much different with the MUP, either. But they may want to explore that
1 area. Obviously, I'll try to get that out briefly, if I can, but I don't
2 know of any major differences.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: As I said, we will play it by ear and we will see
4 tomorrow. You know that the system -- the practice of this Trial Chamber
5 is not to close doors as much as possible unless we detect wasting of time.
6 So we stand adjourned until tomorrow at 2.15 in the afternoon.
7 Thank you.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.00 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of
10 January, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.