Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6623

 1                          Wednesday, 31 January 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  All the accused are here.  Defence teams

10    are missing only Ms. Condon, as stated by Mr. Zivanovic, as explained by

11    Mr. Zivanovic.  And also I see Mr. Bourgon absent today.

12            Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

13            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  She is coming tomorrow, Your Honour.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So Mr. Bourgon, I suppose, will be with

15    us soon as well?

16            MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  He's in the

17    office working.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  So Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer in

19    the back, no others behind the column.

20            Please take a seat.  I will come to you very soon.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  So we did get your message, Mr. Josse; however I

23    don't think there will be need for any further submissions considering

24    what we are going to decide now.

25            MR. JOSSE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 6624

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  So we went through the entire proceedings yesterday

 2    dealing with the submission, oral submission of Madam Fauveau to which all

 3    the other Defence teams associated themselves.  It is a fair statement

 4    that we would like to make, and namely that we are broadly satisfied that

 5    the Prosecution is endeavoring to comply with our directives considering

 6    also the current circumstances.  We do, however, once more enjoin the

 7    Prosecution to continue to do so.

 8            We also wish to state that generally we accept that there is bound

 9    to be some irrelevant material in such statements as the present one,

10    especially when one considers that this statement and others like it may

11    have been given or indeed were given for the purposes of other trials too.

12    In the particular case that we have before us it is difficult for the

13    Trial Chamber to establish a priori that everything that the defence teams

14    deem to be irrelevant is indeed irrelevant.  As a result we feel that

15    denying the Prosecution request to convert Witness 45 to a 92 ter witness

16    is the best way to proceed forward in this particular instance, and that

17    is our decision.  So you will produce this witness viva voce.  Not this

18    witness, Witness 45.

19            Now, I come to you, sir.  Good afternoon.

20            THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  I wish to welcome you to this Tribunal where you

22    will soon start giving evidence.  Our rules require that before your --

23    you start testifying you make a solemn declaration to the effect that you

24    will be testifying the truth.  Madam Usher is going to hand to you the

25    text of the solemn declaration.  Please read it out aloud, and that will

Page 6625

 1    be your undertaking with us.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 3    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                          WITNESS:  ZLATAN CELANOVIC

 5                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you.  Please take a seat and make yourself

 7    comfortable.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey will be putting some questions to you.

10    He will then be followed on cross-examination by the various Defence

11    teams.

12            Mr. McCloskey.

13            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon

14    everyone.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon.

16                          Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

17       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  Could you tell us your full name,

18    please?

19       A.   Zlatan Celanovic.

20       Q.   And where were you born?

21       A.   In Bratunac.

22       Q.   And where do you -- did you grow up?

23       A.   In Bratunac.

24       Q.   And you still live in Bratunac?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 6626

 1       Q.   And what is your profession?

 2       A.   I'm a lawyer.

 3       Q.   And just briefly, what kind of law do you practice in Bratunac?

 4       A.   Property law.

 5       Q.   Okay.  I'd like to take you back to the war years, and

 6    specifically the year -- just roughly 1995, at first.  Can you tell us

 7    what your position was in 1995 in the -- in the army?

 8       A.   I was an officer for legal affairs, religious affairs, and moral

 9    guidance.

10       Q.   And what unit?

11       A.   That was with the headquarters, the command of the brigade.

12       Q.   And what brigade?

13       A.   Bratunac Brigade, light infantry Bratunac Brigade.

14       Q.   And who was your immediate superior?

15       A.   Major Ratko Jeftic, assistant commander within the same organ.

16       Q.   All right.  And his commander for July 1995 was who?

17       A.   Commander Vidoje Blagojevic.

18       Q.   Can you tell us what your duties were in 1995?

19       A.   Yes, I can.  My duties were, within my regular activities, to

20    institute proceedings against soldiers, conscripts, who violated

21    disciplinary rules.  Do you need any elaboration on this?

22       Q.   Besides disciplinary rules, did that include criminal -- criminal

23    violations?

24       A.   No.  No, I was not competent to initiate criminal proceedings.

25       Q.   Did you ever investigate or help oversee an investigation of when

Page 6627

 1    a -- when a soldier committed some sort of crime, whether it be assault or

 2    theft?

 3       A.   Yes.  But that was within the disciplinary action or proceedings,

 4    I would take a statement from the offender and then we would decide

 5    whether that was a crime or a disciplinary infraction and I had to report

 6    to the commander on that.

 7       Q.   Who would you get your commands from to initiate an interview for

 8    an offender or an investigation like this?

 9       A.   From the commander.  Always from him.

10       Q.   All right.  Now, let's go to July 1995 specifically.  And I want

11    to go to the time of about the fall of the Srebrenica enclave.  Now, I

12    know you've testified before that you weren't real good with the dates; is

13    that right?

14       A.   That's correct.

15       Q.   Okay.  So I want to -- I'll ask you questions around time --

16    incidents or -- or things that -- that happened that -- that may help you

17    recall roughly what time-frame it is.  So my -- the first thing I want to

18    ask you about is let's go to the day -- wasn't -- was there a day when you

19    were at your office and some Muslim prisoners were brought by your office

20    that you did interviews of?

21       A.   Yes.  That was on the 13th.

22       Q.   Okay.  And can you tell us where your office was?

23       A.   It was in the building where the military police was housed, or

24    rather the military police platoon.  That was a building near the

25    headquarters building, but not sharing the same yard.

Page 6628

 1       Q.   Okay.  And that -- that headquarters building, can you just

 2    roughly describe it?

 3       A.   I can.  The building of the brigade headquarters was actually --

 4    was actually a factory building of Kaolin, and in the premises of that

 5    building the headquarters of the brigade, that is to say various organs

 6    and the commander, were housed.  And that was behind the building where I

 7    had my office, in another yard, some 30 to 50 metres away.  If you need

 8    additional details, I will be happy.

 9       Q.   That's okay.  I think there's some familiarity with that.  So tell

10    us about when those prisoners were brought by.  Roughly when did that

11    happen on the 13th?

12       A.   In the morning hours at around 10.00, 11.00.  Around that time.

13       Q.   Okay.  Prior to those prisoners coming by, had any senior officers

14    spoken to you about any subject related to interviews or prisoners?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And who was that?

17       A.   Mr. Ljubisa Beara.

18       Q.   And when had Mr. Beara spoken to you about this subject?

19       A.   I'm not quite sure.  It was either on the 12th in the evening or

20    on Monday in the morning.

21       Q.   When you say -- sorry, I think we spoke at the same time by

22    accident.  We didn't get your last answer.

23       A.   I think that it was either in the evening on the 12th of July or

24    in the morning on the 13th of July.  I'm not sure, I can't remember, but

25    we had two meetings in those two days and the first one was either in the

Page 6629

 1    evening on the 12th or 13th in the morning, and the second one was on the

 2    13th in the evening.

 3       Q.   Okay.  And had you met Mr. Beara prior to the -- the date you had

 4    that meeting with him that we're talking about now?

 5       A.   Earlier, yes.  In 1994, in 1993, on various occasions when he came

 6    to the headquarters.

 7       Q.   And can you just -- just roughly tell us when he came to the

 8    Bratunac Brigade headquarters, what was he doing, if you know?

 9       A.   I don't know exactly what he did, but I guess he came to inspect

10    security organs, to see Nikolic or some similar matters.  I never

11    discussed the reason of his visit with him.  It wasn't appropriate for me

12    to do that.

13       Q.   Okay.  And when you say Nikolic, do you mean Momir Nikolic, the

14    chief of security and intelligence of the Bratunac Brigade?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And to your knowledge, what was Mr. Beara's rank?

17       A.   I'm not sure.  He is either a colonel or lieutenant-colonel.  I

18    apologise, but I can't remember.

19            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. McCloskey, can I know the rank of the witness at

20    the time?

21            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

22       Q.   Witness, when you were the -- you held that position, did you have

23    a rank in 1995?

24       A.   No, no.

25       Q.   So what was -- what was your level in the armed forces?

Page 6630

 1       A.   I did my professional tasks because I'm qualified professionally,

 2    but I hold no rank.

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the first sentence

 4    the witness said.

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6       Q.   We didn't quite hear the first part of your answer.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Witness, the interpreters couldn't hear the

 8    first part of your answer.  If you could repeat it, please.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a rank.  I was an

10    ordinary soldier holding no rank.  As for the post that I held, I was

11    hired or engaged because I'm a qualified lawyer, and because somebody

12    holding that degree was qualified for that post.

13            JUDGE KWON:  I'm a bit confused.  One time the witness said he was

14    an officer, and now he says -- he is saying he was an ordinary soldier.

15    Could you clarify with the witness?

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Your Honour.  It may be the same word in the

17    language, my colleague advises me, so I apologise.

18       Q.   We have a little translation issue, but let me just try to clarify

19    it.  Have you ever said you were an officer in the -- in the VRS as in a

20    lieutenant, major, of that rank or higher?

21       A.   No.  Never.  Because I'm not an officer.  I was a "referent" which

22    can be translated as a desk officer.  This is a post I held.

23       Q.   Thank you.  Let's go back to Mr. Beara, when you saw him, where

24    was it that you saw him this first time, either the night of the 12th or

25    the morning of the 13th?

Page 6631

 1       A.   In front of the military police building in the yard.

 2       Q.   And what if anything did he say to you?

 3       A.   He asked me how I was, what I was doing, in those days, and I told

 4    him the usual tasks, believing that he knew what my usual tasks were.

 5       Q.   And then what else did he say?

 6       A.   He said "fine," and then he asked me whether I had any information

 7    on the people who had sinned in relation to the Serbian people.  Or

 8    rather, information on the people who we suspected had torched Serbian

 9    villages, killed civilians and referring to the Muslims.  And I told him

10    that this was all documented in a book.

11            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't catch the name of the

12    book.

13            MR. McCLOSKEY:

14       Q.   Could you tell us the name of the book slowly?  We didn't quite

15    hear it all.

16       A.   The name of the book is The Chronicle of Our Cemetery.  The author

17    is Milivoje Ivanisevic.

18       Q.   Did Mr. Beara use the word "sinned," in a -- sinned, religious

19    context, or is that your word?

20       A.   It was in the sense of committing crimes against the Serbs in

21    previous years in relation to that day.

22       Q.   Okay.  When you told him about the book, what else was mentioned,

23    if anything?

24       A.   Yes.  He said that it would be good for me to ask for IDs from

25    people who were brought to the police building or taken into custody by

Page 6632

 1    them and brought there just to check whether anybody mentioned in that

 2    book was among them.  And if that was the case, to inform one of the

 3    security organs that such a person was there, so that action could be

 4    taken so that the case could be forwarded to the competent prosecutor.

 5       Q.   Okay.  And at the time he -- he said that, had anybody been

 6    brought by your office yet, any Muslims?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Okay.  So now let's go back to the -- what you've described as the

 9    morning of the 13th.  When you say some Muslims were -- were brought by

10    your office, can you tell us about that?

11       A.   A group of five or six Muslims arrived in a vehicle escorted by

12    soldiers who were referred to as members of special forces in conversation

13    with the military police.  So I assumed that they were members of special

14    forces or special military police forces.  They came there and asked about

15    the location of the school building, the elementary school building, so

16    they could take these people there.

17            So the military policemen who were there in front of the building

18    explained to them, gave them directions, pointed.  And I approached them,

19    telling them that I would need to ID these people, telling them why I

20    would need to do that, and I told them to wait a little bit before taking

21    them elsewhere, which they accepted.

22       Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us the military policemen that gave these --

23    these special soldiers or forces that you have described, did you know

24    what unit the military policemen were from?

25       A.   No.  They were not from the Bratunac Brigade, because they were

Page 6633

 1    completely unfamiliar to me.

 2       Q.   Were they part of the VRS?

 3       A.   Most likely, yes.  They couldn't have appeared there otherwise.

 4       Q.   Was a prisoner brought to you that you knew?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And who was that?

 7       A.   Resid Sinanovic, a colleague of mine from Bratunac.

 8       Q.   Was he brought to you with these other six, I think you said

 9    Muslims?  Was he brought to you at the same time as those six?

10       A.   I'm not sure.  There were six or seven of them, roughly.  But

11    within five or 10 minutes -- he wasn't brought with them.  He came with

12    Captain Mirnikovic [phoen].

13       Q.   Could you tell us the name of the officer that Resid Sinanovic

14    came with?

15       A.   Captain Momir Nikolic.

16       Q.   For the record, we had just an understandable translation glitch

17    on the first name.  All right.

18            And was Mr. Beara around at the time that these Muslims were

19    brought to you?

20       A.   I will repeat:  No.

21       Q.   Okay.  And what if anything did Momir Nikolic say to you when you

22    brought you Resid Sinanovic?

23       A.   He brought him into the office without me seeing that because I

24    was outside.  And then he found me in the yard in front of the building

25    and said to me, "I brought in your colleague, Resid Sinanovic, and he is

Page 6634

 1    right now in your office sitting there."

 2            Should I tell you the rest of what he said to me?

 3       Q.   Sure.

 4       A.   And then he said to me that I should check the circumstances

 5    because Resid was also mentioned in the book, The Chronicle of Our

 6    Cemetery, among other people, as somebody who was suspected of having

 7    participated in the attack on the village of Bjelovac.  He said we should

 8    check the paperwork to see whether there was any statement concerning this

 9    and that I should talk to Resid about it to see if that was true or not.

10    Following that he said good-bye to Resid, shook hands with him, went out,

11    and I never saw him again.  I'm referring to Nikolic.  He said something

12    similar to what Mr. Beara said.

13       Q.   Okay.  And so what did you do?

14       A.   Nothing special.  I walked into the office and I started talking

15    to Resid.  It was a normal dialogue.  I talked to him as one would talk to

16    a colleague.  We hadn't seen each other in a while throughout the war.

17       Q.   What was -- what was Mr. Sinanovic's profession?

18       A.   He was a lawyer.

19       Q.   And did you -- did you -- take notes during your -- your talk with

20    him?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Okay.  And can you just -- I'll show you those notes a little

23    later, but can you just briefly tell us what -- what you were talking

24    about?

25       A.   After we greeted each other, as people would, I told him that it

Page 6635

 1    was a good thing that he was there, that I see him, that there were some

 2    indications to the effect of survivors from Bjelovac after the torching of

 3    the village and the killing of many civilians suspected him of having

 4    taken part in that attack.  Not only he, but his wife as well, which was a

 5    bit unusual or rather absurd.  Women did not wage war then in that part of

 6    the world.

 7            He said, "Colleague, never mind, you tell me everything you have

 8    to say.  My conscience is clear, and I wasn't even close to Bjelovac when

 9    all of that happened."

10            I had copies of some unreliable statements.  Some elderly women

11    from Bjelovac had said that they had recognised Resid Sinanovic's voice in

12    the woods, and when I asked how far away the woods were from the house,

13    600 to 700 metres, perhaps even up to 1 kilometre, which is impossible to

14    recognise anybody's voice at that distance.  You could not recognise your

15    own child's voice let alone -- well, there was very little information to

16    the effect that he had been involved in that.  All of this was something

17    that was assumed by the neighbours, the neighbours thought, well -- it's

18    our next door neighbours who must have attacked us, but I did not suspect

19    him of anything and I said that there were no arguments to prove that and

20    I told him not to burden himself with that type of thing.  I told him to

21    relax, which he accepted.

22       Q.   Did you also ask him some questions sort of where the other

23    Muslims were, where the 28th Division might have been?

24       A.   Not in that sense.  I did not mention the 28th Division, and I

25    didn't know that there was a 28th division.  I asked him whether he knew

Page 6636

 1    perhaps where the commanders of units -- well, the commanders who led

 2    Naser's units.  There were several regional commanders depending on the

 3    localities involved, because they had been suspected of war crimes as

 4    well.  So I cannot remember exactly now.  He did mention something, and I

 5    wrote things down on a piece of paper.  He gave me some information and

 6    that's it.  I made a note.  I said I had to make a note, nevertheless.

 7    Although only Nikolic had brought him, he was not with these people.

 8    Well, he said what he thought he knew.  Possibly he could have mentioned

 9    the 28th Division, but now I don't remember that.

10       Q.   Okay.  And how -- how long, roughly, were you speaking to

11    Mr. Sinanovic?

12       A.   Well, roughly about an hour.

13       Q.   And the information he provided you, did you have an opinion as to

14    its reliability?

15       A.   I had an opinion about that.  I did not even ask about moment of

16    units, I just asked about the names of persons who were suspects on the

17    basis of that book.  I wasn't interested in what units were involved and

18    nobody had ordered me to do that, and I was not supposed to do that.  But

19    he talked spontaneously, so that was the information that was provided.

20    He was brought there to my office after perhaps three or four hours, after

21    having walked to Bratunac, and if there was a unit in some of the

22    Srebrenica villages at the time of the action at Srebrenica, that was not

23    relevant.  Everyone was on the move, the Serb army and the Muslim army,

24    and it was a question of minutes.  I mean, that's my assumption.  I don't

25    know.  I was not there on the field.  So I did not take that as a piece of

Page 6637

 1    information that I would have to report to someone.

 2       Q.   Okay.  We probably need to slow down a little bit so we get the

 3    translation right.

 4       A.   I do apologise.

 5       Q.   Okay.  After speaking to Mr. Sinanovic, did you speak to the --

 6    any of these other five, six Muslims that you had said had been brought

 7    to -- to your area?

 8       A.   Yes.  I just looked at their IDs.  And I put the same question,

 9    whether they knew.  I mean, I asked every one of them whether they knew

10    roughly where such and such people were.  A few names, Rasunovic [phoen],

11    Meholjic, Mandic.  I knew them by heart, but I was leafing through the

12    book.  So if they knew anything, they spoke up.  If not, then they would

13    spontaneously talk about where it was that they went and from what village

14    they set out from and how they reached Bratunac.  Obviously they weren't

15    soldiers but civilians, or at least some of them.  That's probably the way

16    it was, and I was taking notes about this, too.  What they were saying, I

17    thought I should write down on a piece of paper.

18       Q.   Okay.  And I -- have I showed you the original notes that you have

19    taken, that you took at the time when you were speaking to Mr. Sinanovic

20    and these others?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And did you confirm that that was your handwriting and those were

23    the notes you were talking about?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   All right.  And let me skip a little bit now.  After those

Page 6638

 1    prisoners left your area, did you again see Mr. Beara?

 2       A.   Yes, on that day in the evening.

 3       Q.   And where was it you saw Mr. Beara?

 4       A.   The same place.  Right there in front of the building of the

 5    police.

 6       Q.   What if anything had been going on in Bratunac that -- that

 7    afternoon and evening; anything unusual?

 8       A.   Well, the transport had already arrived of people who had

 9    surrendered or were taken prisoner.  They were already there in Bratunac,

10    lots of people.

11       Q.   And when you say transport, what kind of transport?

12       A.   These were freight vehicles and buses.  Trucks and buses, that

13    is.

14       Q.   And who in particular were in these buses and trucks?

15       A.   Adults.  Men.  Well, Muslims.

16       Q.   And did you see which direction they were coming in to Bratunac

17    town from?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Did you see where these buses and trucks went in Bratunac town?

20       A.   I saw where they were parked.

21       Q.   And where was -- just roughly, where was that?  We will get to a

22    map a little later, I think.

23       A.   The street that goes towards the elementary school Branko

24    Radicevic in Bratunac.  The street ends in front of the school, and then

25    it forks off into different directions, so it is a straight street.  It

Page 6639

 1    starts from the street of Gavrila Princip.  That's what they call it

 2    nowadays and it goes to the building of the elementary school.

 3       Q.   Sorry, do you remember the name of the elementary school back

 4    then?

 5       A.   Now I'm sure that the name of the elementary school is Branko

 6    Radicevic.

 7       Q.   Do you remember what it was back then in 1995?

 8       A.   I'm not sure.  Before two elementary schools were established,

 9    there was one that was called Vuk Karadzic.  And after two schools were

10    established, one was called Vuk Karadzic, the old name that is, and the

11    other one got the name of Branko Radicevic.  Now, that always confused me

12    a bit, where what school was, in terms of their names.  That one was near

13    the municipality, Branko Radicevic or Vuk Karadzic, it's near the

14    municipality building, the specific school that I am talking about.

15       Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll see if we can sort that out a bit later.  Now,

16    when you saw Mr. Beara outside, I guess it was near the office that

17    evening, what if anything did he say to you?

18       A.   No, I've already said.  I mean, I was the one to start the

19    conversation.

20       Q.   Okay.  And what did you say to him?

21       A.   Well, I said that only a few people were brought in front of the

22    police building.  And that there are no results in terms of looking at the

23    IDs, and then he says, "All right, what else?"  And I said that I was

24    worried because I went home around midday to change because it was very

25    hot, and I saw that there were too many people who were prisoners in town,

Page 6640

 1    and too few soldiers - I mean Serb soldiers - and that probably the town

 2    is imperilled.

 3       Q.   What was his response to that?

 4       A.   All right, we'll have a look at that, but I hope that they will

 5    make it through the night and we will too, because I guess they're going

 6    to Kladanj tomorrow.

 7       Q.   Okay.  So what did you do?

 8       A.   Nothing special.  Quite simply he went out to see all of that.  To

 9    see what the situation as outside in the street, that street.

10       Q.   And did you go with him?

11       A.   Excuse me.  Yes.

12       Q.   And where did you -- where did you go?

13       A.   All the way to the school.  From the command building, the

14    building of the commander of the brigade, we walked along the street on

15    foot, and he was just looking, he was looking at the vehicles and the

16    guards.  He didn't stop by anyone, simply he passed by and looked.

17       Q.   And did you see any of these vehicles and trucks with Muslim men

18    in them?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And what if anything did he say about them?

21       A.   I'm sorry, about them or to them?

22       Q.   Well, let's start with --

23       A.   I didn't hear your question, or rather I didn't hear the

24    interpreter interpreting your question.

25       Q.   Okay.  What if anything did he say about them to you?

Page 6641

 1       A.   Yes, I asked him why these people weren't leaving immediately, why

 2    were they standing there, and he aid that the transport had to be

 3    reorganised, that there were many people on the vehicles, and that it

 4    wasn't safe to transport them that way, and that the vehicles had to be

 5    returned.  The vehicles that took the women and children, that they would

 6    be reorganised and they would go could Kladanj the next morning.

 7       Q.   He said there were too many people on the vehicles for them to be

 8    transported that way?

 9       A.   Actually, he said that there were too few vehicles in order to

10    transport them.

11       Q.   Okay.  Did he say anything to any of the Muslims in your

12    presence?

13       A.   No, no.  He didn't address anyone.

14       Q.   And where did you go?

15       A.   The school, along the street.

16       Q.   Roughly what time of day was it now that you were in the -- in

17    the -- going towards the school?

18       A.   Dusk.

19       Q.   Okay.  And then what happened?

20       A.   Nothing.  We went back, we came to the school that is, and he went

21    down towards the school, too, 10 or 15 metres, I wasn't with him, to the

22    corner.  He said it's not quite safe, but I think there won't be any

23    problems.  And then we returned up there.  It didn't take very long

24    because practically -- well, yes, at one moment we went to the stadium,

25    too.  He looked at the stadium.  He looked at what the situation was.  He

Page 6642

 1    looked from the gate.  Whether he talked to someone or not, I could not

 2    hear because I stayed behind, but he returned soon.

 3       Q.   Were you able to look into the stadium yourself?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Did you see anything -- anybody in the stadium?

 6       A.   Well, I saw a few vehicles next to the fence before the stadium,

 7    and also through the gate of the stadium.  I could discern parts of buses

 8    and trucks because the fence prevented you from seeing that.  So that's

 9    what I saw.

10       Q.   And how long was Mr. Beara over by the stadium?

11       A.   Very briefly.  I don't know, he stopped for a bit, a minute or

12    two, I don't know whether he talked to someone or not, and not more than

13    that.  And then he came back and then we went down the street to the

14    school.

15       Q.   Why didn't you go over to the stadium with him?

16       A.   Well, there were some soldiers in front of the gate.  Quite

17    simply, I stopped.  I was talking behind him, a metre or two, for as long

18    as he did whatever he wanted to do out there, to have a look, whatever.  I

19    didn't really feel like going.  I was exhausted that day, so I was

20    avoiding any kind of commotion.

21       Q.   Did you see any Muslim men in the stadium?

22       A.   I think that I did on the first vehicle.  I didn't enter the

23    stadium so I didn't see what was going on in the stadium.  Just through

24    the gate of the stadium I saw -- well, it was dusk, I wasn't sure.  Now,

25    was it the front part of the truck or the back or front of a bus, but I

Page 6643

 1    think I did see that there were people there on one of the vehicles.  Now,

 2    who these people were, whether they were Muslims, too, or soldiers, I

 3    don't know.  I'm not sure about that.

 4       Q.   Okay.  And where did you go when you and Mr. Beara left the

 5    stadium area?

 6       A.   Actually, I was supposed to say that earlier on.  We stopped at

 7    the stadium and then we returned to the school and to the police building,

 8    to in front of the police building.  We talked slowly; we were on foot.

 9       Q.   Okay.  And when you got back to the police building, what

10    happened?

11       A.   Nothing.  He went into the yard of the command, and I went to my

12    office to get things in order.  It was dirty that day, nothing more than

13    that.  As for him, I didn't see him after that.

14       Q.   Okay.

15            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I had a map of Bratunac to help

16    illustrate the walk.  The one I have access to is the one that has the

17    places marked.  Given there was a slight confusion about the school, it

18    may be better to give him the unmarked version.  That unfortunately is in

19    my office.  But if the Defence doesn't object, we can show him the marked

20    version.  I mean, he knows Bratunac better than anyone, and it may not be

21    prejudicial, but if there is a concern I can go to my office.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Is -- the marked one, does it indicate the name of

23    one or both schools?

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  So at that point, I suggest that he brings the clean

Page 6644

 1    one.

 2                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic.

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Just

 5    on line -- or page 21, line 6, I thought the witness said that they walked

 6    slowly, and it says they talked slowly.  I don't know if it's a big deal.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  [Microphone not activated]

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

 9            MR. McCLOSKEY:  It will just take a minute or two for us to get

10    the map.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I think it's better we use the clean one, even

12    though the witness familiar with Bratunac town.  Unless there is the okay

13    from the Defence teams.  In which case we can use the one that he has now.

14            MR. JOSSE:  Let's not, I'm afraid.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's bring the clean one.  In the meantime, if

16    you can pass on to some other question, perhaps we'll do that.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. President.

18       Q.   Let's go back now to the time that you are in front of your office

19    with the -- the Muslims.  You have told us you interviewed Resid

20    Sinanovic, I think you said in your office.  Is that right?

21       A.   I only talked to him in the office.  With the others outside, they

22    didn't enter.

23       Q.   Okay.  And where were the others when you spoke to them?

24       A.   The first one or two people while they were on the vehicle they

25    got off to get some water, and outside in the shade underneath the window

Page 6645

 1    there were a few chairs and tree stumps and I was sitting there and taking

 2    notes on my knees.  Handwritten notes.

 3       Q.   Okay.  And when you finished, do you know where Resid Sinanovic

 4    and these other Muslims were taken?

 5       A.   First they were taken -- I mean these people who were together in

 6    the group, they were taken to the school.

 7       Q.   And how do you know that?

 8       A.   Because the guys who were the escorts asked where the school was,

 9    so they could take them there, and they returned with the vehicle five or

10    six minutes later.  They returned to the building, in front of the

11    building.  There were fewer of them then; two or three of these escorts,

12    these guys who were escorting them.  After that ...

13       Q.   Okay.  Now, these -- these people that -- that took the Muslims to

14    the school, how did they describe themselves in particular?

15       A.   As I started talking to these persons who were brought in, I asked

16    for their IDs to see who they were and I asked for any ID.  They were

17    talking to a few of these military policemen from the platoon of the

18    military police from Bratunac, and sort of we were specials, it was a sort

19    of jargon, so I assumed that they were members of a special military unit

20    or a special police.  I don't know.  At any rate, they were dressed the

21    same way; new overalls.  And one could see that perhaps they belonged to

22    an elite unit, judging by their uniforms because our people were poorly

23    dressed.  It was along those lines.  It wasn't that any one of them told

24    me that they were members of this or that unit.  I cannot claim that.

25       Q.   Okay.  Well, let me -- let me take you to see if this will help to

Page 6646

 1    refresh your recollection.  Do you remember giving a statement on the 28th

 2    of August, 2003, to the Republika Srpska MUP at the Bratunac police

 3    station?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Let me read this to you to see if this is correct.  I mean,

 6    earlier I -- you had a chance to read this -- this police statement,

 7    didn't you, in my office?

 8       A.   [No interpretation]

 9       Q.   And did you tell me if it was correct or not?

10       A.   Well, there are two statements.  I don't know which one you

11    mean.

12       Q.   Okay.  Well, this is the longest one with the most detail.  It is

13    the 28th of August.  Let me just read you the short section to see if this

14    is -- if this is right or if you want to clarify anything.

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  Page?

16            MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's page 5 in the -- in the English, in the

17    middle of the first paragraph, and it's page -- ERN Y0033873, in the B/C/S

18    original, near the bottom of the first paragraph.

19       Q.   It says, I believe, now referring to the -- to the Muslims, "We

20    talked for about two hours and then a police patrol came to my office and

21    said that Resid had spent too much time with me and that they were

22    supposed to escort him to the elementary school for provisional

23    accommodation.  Since the policemen had represented themselves as special

24    police, there could be no arguing with them because they were arrogant

25    fellows 'specials,' and it was better not to get on their wrong side."

Page 6647

 1            Now, this -- is that correct?

 2       A.   That's correct.  Correct.  That is correct.

 3       Q.   So these guys called themselves special police?

 4       A.   They called themselves "the specials."  Not the special police.

 5    So I assume they were either the special police or a special platoon of

 6    the military, of the army.  I wasn't sure.

 7       Q.   You know what the RS Special Police Unit was at the time, don't

 8    you?

 9       A.   I know what the unit of the military police looked like.  As for

10    the special police, I didn't look at the insignia.

11       Q.   Okay.  Can you describe the uniform that these police, these

12    specials, let's call them the specials, as you have confirmed.  What --

13    can you describe their uniforms a little better?

14       A.   Overalls.  Military overalls.  They were camouflage overalls, and

15    one could see that the fabric was new, that overalls were new, one could

16    see very well.  The belts that they had were not plain leather ones, no.

17    They were the modern type ones and very few of our people had that.  Our

18    people had worn-out uniforms three years old, tops and trousers.  That's

19    what our people wore.

20       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I now have that -- that map, and I don't know

21    what number we want to give it, but we'll give it P2 -- if we could, for

22    now I'm told, call it P2103, at page 272, that's Mr. Ruez's marked map.

23    This will get a new number after he marks it up.  And if you could give

24    him that --

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Sure, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 6648

 1            MR. McCLOSKEY: -- that pen and that map, and if we could gear up

 2    the ELMO.

 3       Q.   Mr. Celanovic, you know, take your time.  I know you saw this map

 4    in my office and -- but take your time to orient yourself with it.  And

 5    when you do the first thing I want you to do is circle the buildings of

 6    the Bratunac Brigade headquarters.  But take time to orient it.  It's

 7    obviously shot at sort of an angle that can be tricky.  You can turn it

 8    any way that makes sense to you.

 9       A.   May I use the pencil to draw on it or am I supposed only to point

10    out without writing anything?

11       Q.   Okay.  Let's work together on this, if you --

12       A.   [No interpretation]

13            THE INTERPRETER:  I didn't hear what the witness said.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this -- is this suitable?  This

15    is the building, the building of the Kaolin factory.  This is this

16    building here.  I'm circling it right now.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:

18       Q.   Take the pen -- we're going to write on it.  I don't want the

19    whole factory, but can you circle the offices of the headquarters?

20       A.   Here.  I have to do it with my left hand.  I'm left handed.  I

21    don't know if I should turn it around.

22       Q.   Definitely use your writing hand.

23       A.   This is the front part of the building.  And this is where

24    premises were, official premises.  The cafeteria was on the ground floor

25    for the military, and this is where the offices of the command of the

Page 6649

 1    brigade were located, in this part here.

 2       Q.   Okay.  Is that -- is that pen working?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   It is, okay.  Sorry.  It's just the ELMO.  All right.  You've

 5    drawn I guess a big oval around the office building.  Can you put a 1, a

 6    clear 1 next to that, so we'll know what that is?  You may need to mark

 7    hard so it comes through to us.

 8       A.   All right.  Number 1.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  Now can you circle the place where your office was,

10    what is known I believe as the military police building.  And we can stay

11    right there, ELMO people.

12       A.   This building here.  This one here.  This is where the reception

13    desk is, and then the military police building is.  And then my office was

14    somewhere here.

15       Q.   All right.  Well, you've marked your office, I guess, with

16    something that looked like a 1, unfortunately.  But let's ignore that and

17    put a 2 on the roof of the military police building, that big rectangle

18    you drew.

19       A.   [Marks].

20       Q.   Now, can you put a B1 where the first place where you saw Mr.

21    Beara was, either on the night of the 12th or the morning of the 13th?

22       A.   [Marks].

23       Q.   Okay.  Now, where was he when you met him that second time and

24    took your walk into town?  Just tell us where he was in relation to B1.

25       A.   Closer to the reception desk or the gatehouse.  Somewhere here.

Page 6650

 1       Q.   Okay.  Put B2 next to that little dot, will you?

 2       A.   [Marks].

 3       Q.   Now, if you could just visualise where you walked and before

 4    drawing, let's do it like a carpenter, let's look first and measure

 5    second.  So can you just take your pen without writing it and just give us

 6    an outline of your walk and then we will mark it after that.  Just go

 7    slowly from the headquarters to where you went into town and we'll mark it

 8    later.

 9       A.   We started out from here, we took this street, and then went down

10    this street called Gavrila Principa and turned left and we took this

11    street and then we turned towards the stadium.  I remained there and he

12    went to the gate of went to the gate of the stadium and then came back and

13    went to the school.  This is the school.

14       Q.   Okay.  Can you put a big circle around the school you're talking

15    about, and just -- just put an S for "skola."  Now, how do you know that

16    school?  What name do you know it by now?  I know the name has changed a

17    few times.

18       A.   Called Branko Radicevic.

19       Q.   Okay.  Can you now just take a moment and draw in with your green

20    pen that -- that route you just told us about?  Just take your time and

21    get it right.

22       A.   [Marks] Can you see this?

23       Q.   More or less.  Okay.  Now, on the way -- that line you've just

24    drawn, I see that you go to the soccer field and then you go back and then

25    down to the school.  On your way back do you do the same route?

Page 6651

 1       A.   Same road except we didn't go to the playground.

 2       Q.   Or the -- the --

 3       A.   No, no, we didn't go again to the playground; there was no need

 4    for that.

 5       Q.   When you say playground, you mean football pitch?

 6       A.   Stadium.  I mean the stadium.

 7       Q.   Everyone in Bratunac knows it as the stadium?

 8       A.   Correct.

 9       Q.   Can you roughly as you remember, put Xs where you remember seeing

10    vehicles, buses and trucks that had Muslims in them?  If you can.

11       A.   The vehicles were parked with an interval of two to three metres.

12    In -- in the street.  So there was a column of vehicles with two to three

13    metres between them.  They filled up the street.  So every two or three

14    metres there would be a parked vehicle and then again two or three metres

15    and then another parked vehicle, all the way up to the end of the street

16    and the street ended in the front of the school, right here.

17       Q.   Okay.  Could you just put Xs to just roughly reflect that.  It

18    doesn't need to be the same number of vehicles as Xs, but Xs to give us an

19    idea of where these vehicles were parked.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  I was thinking also of using another there are,

21    because at least from what I can see on -- on the monitor, I can barely

22    decipher what -- of course if I look at the -- probably I will see it

23    better, but ...

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we had that same problem with the colour.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know, there were instances where the

Page 6652

 1    technicians actually did something and we could see the colour.

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we blow it up a little bit?  I think if we

 3    blow up to just have the route, we can see it.  No, I mean down.  Yeah,

 4    there we go.  Okay.  Right there, that's fine.

 5       Q.   Can you finish your Xs and ...

 6            Is that it?  That's about the area where you saw the buses and

 7    trucks?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Do you remember roughly how many different buses and trucks you

10    saw that had Muslims in them?

11       A.   There could have been some 20 or so.  I didn't count them, and I

12    would hesitate to give you the exact figure, but they almost filled up the

13    whole street.  I don't know exactly how many buses can fit, but not --

14    maybe not the whole street, but from the bakery, there is a bakery here,

15    all the way up to the school.  This is the bakery.  This is where the

16    bakery is.  Where the X is on the corner, this is where the bakery is, and

17    then down.  You said the street.  Do you need to -- do you need for me to

18    mark other locations with an X?

19       Q.   Is there any other locations where you saw numerous vehicles?  Big

20    vehicles with Muslims in them?

21       A.   As I said earlier, that in front of the stadium gate I saw two or

22    three vehicles.

23       Q.   Okay.  Why don't you put two or three Xs there, then.

24       A.   [Marks].

25       Q.   And you mentioned seeing something inside the stadium.  How many

Page 6653

 1    vehicles did you see inside the stadium?

 2       A.   I didn't see any vehicle in its entirety.  I saw a portion of one

 3    vehicle, the front of it.  I saw only half a metre of the front of that

 4    vehicle.  I don't know whether that was a bus or a truck.  It was dusk,

 5    and I stood by the stands at the market.

 6       Q.   Why don't you put a 0 where you saw part of that vehicle, if you

 7    can?

 8       A.   Here.  [Marks].

 9       Q.   Okay.  Could you tell whether there were any Muslim men inside the

10    school?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   What could you see?

13       A.   I could see people on the windows.  I'm now referring to the time

14    when I saw them during the day.

15       Q.   Okay.  I'm just asking you about that evening walk.  What could

16    you see during the evening walk?  Did you see any Muslims at that school

17    during your evening walk with Mr. Beara?

18       A.   I saw silhouettes, yes.  They were in the classrooms on the

19    windows.

20       Q.   Okay.  And could you tell -- did you -- what level of the

21    classroom?  I guess there is ground, at least a ground.  I mean, how

22    many -- how many levels does that school have?

23       A.   One or two storeys.  I'm not sure exactly but there was on the

24    upper storey.  I don't know exactly how many storeys the building has, I

25    think two, but I'm not sure.

Page 6654

 1       Q.   Did you see Mr. Popovic around Bratunac on -- on that day that you

 2    saw Mr. Beara?

 3       A.   I didn't see Mr. Popovic on that day.

 4       Q.   Did you see him in Bratunac, do you remember seeing him at all

 5    during this time?

 6       A.   I think I saw him one evening, either on the 10th or 11th in front

 7    of the brigade headquarters building.

 8       Q.   All right.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Could he be more specific as to which Popovic he's

10    referring to, please?

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

12       Q.   When you say -- when I say -- when we say Popovic, can you tell us

13    his -- who this person is?

14       A.   Well, Popovic.  The security officer of the corps.

15       Q.   Which corps?

16       A.   The Drina Corps.

17       Q.   Now, you say you think you saw him.

18       A.   Well, I know what he looks like.  I think I saw him and Mr. Beara

19    one evening, but Mr. Beara didn't talk to me on that occasion.  He didn't

20    even see him nor did I approach him or anything.  I just saw him.  I saw a

21    group of officers and I recognised him.  Because he would come to see

22    Nikolic frequently, and I could physically identify him easily.

23       Q.   So when you say "him" you mean Popovic the --

24       A.   I'm referring to Mr. Popovic.

25       Q.   Now, in this group of people, who did you see?

Page 6655

 1       A.   I just recognised Mr. Beara and Mr. Popovic.  There were another

 2    two or three men, but that was after I had finished my dinner and gone

 3    back, and then I stood with the guards, not with the guards, but people

 4    manning the reception desk or the gatehouse, and they said the officers

 5    arrived, and I paid attention to them.  I looked at them more carefully,

 6    and I recognised the two of them, and then there were two or three

 7    officers with them.  I guess they were officers, but I'm not fully sure

 8    about that.  I simply didn't see them that clearly, nor did I know them

 9    from before.

10       Q.   All right.  I just -- the last thing I want to do is show you

11    these -- your -- your handwritten notes, and I think we can do that with

12    the -- with the screen and the copies.  If we could just go on e-court

13    first to number 247.  If we could blow that up briefly.  Okay.

14            Are these the notes regarding a person -- an interview of -- named

15    Husic Mujo?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Let's go to the -- the next one, which is number 248.  And if I

18    could bring up the English as well as the B/C/S on this.  We need to show

19    the witness the B/C/S.  Okay.

20            Are these your notes of the interview with Resid Sinanovic?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Okay.  And if you could blow up the English bit -- a bit more so I

23    can look at in the middle part of the notes.

24            It looks like Mr. Sinanovic told you that -- it says, "In the

25    first phase about 6.000 to 7.000 people crossed.  Soldiers had priority.

Page 6656

 1    The majority of the soldiers crossed in the first wave."  And then it

 2    says in parentheses, "(the plan to go from Pobudje towards Tuzla.)"  And

 3    then, "This morning about 1.000 to 1500 armed men remained.  About 6.000

 4    to 7.000 remained in the spot where the shells landed."  And then there is

 5    a little description.

 6            So when it says, "This morning about 1.000 to 1500 remained," do

 7    you know what day that was when he says, "This morning"?

 8       A.   I apologise, but I hear -- I see here only two sentences of what

 9    you read out.  Could you please scroll up with -- scroll down rather, with

10    my text so that I can follow it?  May I read this, please?

11       Q.   Yes, I apologise.  Take your time and take a look at that.  And we

12    can blow that up for him and kick off the English.

13       A.   Yeah, this is good.  Yes, yes, this is good.  Can you scroll down

14    a bit more?  Thank you.  Because I'm missing the bottom portion.  All

15    right.

16            Now, would you repeat the question, please?

17       Q.   There is a reference, when it says, "This morning about 1.000 to

18    1500 armed men remained," now you are clearly interviewing him on the

19    13th.  Do you know when you wrote in "this morning," what you were

20    referring to, what day?

21       A.   I think that it was on the 13th, because at the beginning of the

22    text it says, "I started out this morning."  Could I see the beginning of

23    the text, please?  Could we go back to the beginning?  Because that was

24    the most accurate information.  I wrote down what he said.  Yes, this is

25    it.

Page 6657

 1            He says, "This morning I reported to the camp near Pobudje," which

 2    means that it was that morning on the 13th because this is how he started

 3    his story.

 4       Q.   Okay.  And Mr. Celanovic, I tell you I don't see any questions in

 5    your notes about the possibility of him being a war criminal, so you

 6    didn't write any notes about that part of your conversation?

 7       A.   No.  It was a conversation, a verbal exchange.  Because even

 8    before he was brought, there was actually no grounds for suspecting him in

 9    relation to anything.  I just told him that I needed to speak to him,

10    because he had heard what Captain Nikolic said, and I had to talk to him.

11    There was nothing to write down, just the first name and the last name.  I

12    didn't know the other people, so I had to get more information from them,

13    more personal particulars.  And I asked him about other people. You can

14    see based on the names that all of these people were mentioned, and you

15    can see what kind of questions I put to him.  Bekic, Golic,  Tihic.

16       Q.   Okay.  Understood.  Let's go to the next one, which is number 249?

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

18            MR. JOSSE:  Mr. Krgovic said that the last bit of the witness

19    gave, an important bit where he said the word "innocent," was missed out.

20    Perhaps he could be asked if he mentioned the word "innocent" and in what

21    context.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Witness, you've heard Mr. Josse.  Did you make

23    use -- did you use the word "innocent"?  And if you did, in what context

24    did you use it?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In relation to which name?

Page 6658

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Is that clear?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean Sinanovic or the other

 3    people mentioned?

 4            MR. JOSSE:  Sinanovic, apparently.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Sinanovic, yes.  It is my

 6    position now that he was a decent and honest man.  And following

 7    everything that happened nothing surfaced to indicate that he wronged

 8    anyone, committed a war crime against Serb civilians, soldiers or

 9    anything. He did not harm the Serbs in any way.  This is still my opinion

10    to this day.  And that's how it was.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:

12       Q.   Okay.  Just to -- or almost -- we're almost done, really.  Let's

13    go to the next one which I think I already said, 249.  And if -- take a

14    look.  Does this indicate that you spoke briefly to Nasif Avdic?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And Munib Dedic?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And Aziz Husic?  I think we need to ...

19       A.   All right.

20       Q.   Okay.  And I think if we can go to the last one of these.  It says

21    down at the bottom, "R.Z." for Hajrudin Begzadic.  It says he was

22    registered with a unit but did not take an active part.  So what does that

23    mean, if you remember.

24       A.   Hajrudin, I didn't see him on that day, but Husic claimed

25    concerning Begzadic that he had been a member of a unit of Alija,

Page 6659

 1    nicknamed Kurta, and gave information about him because given that Aziz

 2    was from Brezovica, and this person, Hajrudin Izazic [phoen] from

 3    Brezovica was mentioned in the book as a person who was involved.  So he

 4    provided information about where he was in the unit and where he was

 5    located.  Nothing more.  I made this note, and that has nothing to do with

 6    it.  So just to -- just to reiterate, this person was not with me.  And

 7    this is what Husic told us.

 8            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have two more documents.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead and then we will have the break.

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to 250, this should be the last note.

11    It will come up on this -- on this system.

12       Q.   Does this indicate that you interviewed Hasib Ibisevic?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And just going briefly back to Resid Sinanovic, were you at some

15    point shown a document indicating that he was -- he was alive on 15 July

16    1995?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   All right.  And if we could bring that up and that -- and should

19    have a B/C/S version.  The number is 2407, that's the English version.  If

20    we could bring them both up.  But I think we can make this shorter by --

21            Do you remember being shown some medical documents by a lawyer

22    named Veselin Londrovic who was representing Momir Nikolic at -- at the

23    time?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   All right.  And did he -- did he show you this -- this letter that

Page 6660

 1    we see the B/C/S version of?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   All right.  And just for the Court, you can see that this is a --

 4    a reference from a -- a health centre sending a medical document from the

 5    hospital at Banja Koviljaca.  Do you know where Banja Koviljaca is?

 6       A.   Of course.

 7       Q.   Where is that?

 8       A.   It's a town on the Drina River in the Republic of Serbia.

 9       Q.   Okay.  So if we could now go to -- let's go to the actual document

10    itself, which is three pages down in this document.  Page 3 in English,

11    and page 3 in B/C/S.  Okay.  If we could blow that up a little bit to

12    catch the 15 July segment of the English and the B/C/S which we see

13    towards the bottom of the page.

14            Okay.  Now, in the English side the people that were trying to

15    translate this were not able to being make out anything about "Resid"

16    about three lines below where it says 15 July.  Can you check out the

17    B/C/S version about three lines down, does it say "Resid" there?

18       A.   Yes.  Resid Sinanovic, both first and last name, written in the

19    Cyrillic script.

20       Q.   And what is you are understanding, just -- of what this document

21    represents?

22       A.   It constitutes proof that Resid Sinanovic has been registered or

23    entered in this document.  If it's a hospital document, then that he was

24    in the hospital.  I looked at this document before, and I know that this

25    is part of the medical centre's protocol records in Banja Koviljaca,

Page 6661

 1    meaning that he was receiving treatment or was there for treatment that

 2    day, since he's been registered in this particular form.

 3       Q.   Okay.  And where -- where is Banja Koviljaca?

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  He has already told us, I think.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Banja Koviljaca, to be more

 6    specific, is a town across from the town of Bijeljina.  It is further away

 7    from Zvornik.  It's not precisely opposite from Bijeljina, but it is more

 8    or less on the other side of the river Drina in the Republic of Serbia.

 9    It is 40 or 50 kilometres from Zvornik, down river from the Drina on the

10    right bank of the river Drina in Serbia.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:

12       Q.   The letter from -- the letter from a doctor says from Loznica, the

13    health centre from Loznica.  Do you know whether this medical record is

14    coming from a health centre in Loznica or Banja Koviljaca?

15       A.   The medical centre has a business, an organisational seat in

16    Loznica.  The health centre, or whatever it's called, in Banja Koviljaca

17    is territorially part of that centre.  Legally it's part of the Milenko

18    Marin centre from Loznica, even though it is not physically in the same

19    place.  It is as if a company had a branch in another place.  There is for

20    example one in Amsterdam and one in The Hague.  I mean, it's the same way.

21      So part of the medical centre in Loznica, is this particular unit in

22    Banja Koviljaca.

23       Q.   What town is across the river from Loznica in Republika Srpska?

24       A.   I think that Bijeljina is the closest.

25       Q.   How about Kozluk?

Page 6662

 1       A.   Kozluk, well, Kozluk, I even forgot that it was a town.  It's a

 2    very small place.  Kozluk is a settlement.

 3            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  I don't have any further questions.

 4    Thank you for your patience.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you.  Witness, we will have a 25-minute

 6    break starting from now.  Thank you.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  I understand you're finished, but I see you

10    standing up again, Mr. McCloskey.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I am reminded the witness needs to sign and date

12    the map.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's see him do that.

14            THE WITNESS:  [Marks].

15            [Interpretation] What was the date?

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Today is the 31st of January.  Okay.

17            Mr. Zivanovic will go first.

18            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19                          Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

20       Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, sir.

21       A.   Good day.

22       Q.   You provided a statement before, actually you gave a number of

23    statements at the police station in Bratunac, and to the Tribunal

24    investigators?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 6663

 1       Q.   I'm going to read just one sentence from that statement that you

 2    provided at the Bratunac police station, and then after that I'm going to

 3    put a question to you.

 4            The sentence reads, "I know from speaking with military policemen

 5    of the Bratunac Brigade that they participated as an escort to the convoy

 6    or convoys and that the hand-over of the vehicles with the prisoners was

 7    carried out at the border between the Bratunac and Zvornik Brigade's areas

 8    of responsibility."

 9            My question is, on that occasion did they tell you or mention that

10    this was done at a place called Vidikovac?

11       A.   No.  Only the area the responsibility was mentioned.

12       Q.   They didn't mention any location at all?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Can you please tell me if -- or until when did you stay in the

15    army of Republika Srpska?

16       A.   I think until the 14th of December, 1995.  Just before the signing

17    of the Dayton Accords, something like that.

18       Q.   Can you just tell me one more thing.  I saw from your previous

19    statements that amongst other things as part of your duties you compiled

20    data on attacks on the Serbian villages around Bratunac and Srebrenica; is

21    that correct?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Can you please tell me if you know what happened after that?

24    With that material that you had compiled with the documents, the material,

25    the statements and all of that, did that stay at the Bratunac Brigade or

Page 6664

 1    not?

 2       A.   I don't know if it stayed or a part of it stayed.  I have to give

 3    you a broader answer, if you permit me.  I compiled the material upon

 4    orders of the commander in cooperation with the representatives of the

 5    commission for the investigation of war crimes of Republika Srpska and

 6    Yugoslavia, so they were sent to me by the commander as a person who was

 7    skilled in compiling data and getting statements and so on.  So I was

 8    authorised by the commander to take statements from civilians.

 9            Whatever I compiled I would hand over to the representatives of

10    those two commissions.  They actually took most of the statements to the

11    centre for the investigation of war crimes in Yugoslavia.  Maybe I'm not

12    naming the -- the commission properly.  Luka [phoen] Ivanisevic was the

13    authorised person.  I remember quite well he was authorised by Biljana

14    Plavsic to come to the command of the brigade, and that he was authorised

15    to investigate into Republika Srpska.  That's how it was.

16       Q.   If you can remember, can you tell me if there were many cases

17    reported of attacks on Serbian villages around Bratunac and Srebrenica?

18       A.   Could your question be a little more specific, please?

19       Q.   In the course of your work on this matter that we just talked

20    about, did you have information from people that you took the various

21    statements from about how many attacks there were on Serbian villages?

22    Did this occur once, several times, were there attacks on one village or

23    on several villages?  This is my question.

24       A.   Yes, that's clear.  There were I a tacks on all Serbian villages

25    in the area of the Bratunac municipality.

Page 6665

 1       Q.   What does that mean?  How many of them are there?

 2       A.   I don't know how many of them there are, 50, 60.  Well, not all.

 3    The villages that were below Bratunac, only Polje [phoen] and Slapasnica

 4    were not attacked.  All the other villages were attacked, Kravica,

 5    Jezestica, Bijelovac, and so on.  Each village as attacked by the army.

 6       Q.   Can you tell me if you found out what the consequences of these

 7    attacks were?

 8       A.   Absolutely.  There were many soldiers and civilians killed in each

 9    attack and property was destroyed.  There was looting and burning of Serb

10    villages.

11       Q.   When you say soldiers and civilians, do you mean Serb soldiers and

12    civilians?

13       A.   Yes, I'm thinking of Serb soldiers and civilians.

14       Q.   And on that occasion did you find out who carried out the attacks

15    where the attackers were coming from, which direction were they coming

16    from, those who attacked the villages?

17       A.   I did have some information because the survivors could always

18    identify someone from the other side.  There was fighting, they would see

19    someone.  Mostly these are people from two towns who knew each other from

20    before the war.  They would recognise someone and were able to indicate by

21    first and last name who the persons were whom they recognised who were in

22    the attack.  That caused these consequences.

23       Q.   And did they indicate from which direction --

24            JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... you are moving

25    too fast, both of you.  Please allow a short pause between question and

Page 6666

 1    answer.  All right?

 2            Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 3            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Just a couple more questions.  Could you please tell me if you

 5    had information as to the direction from which those attackers had come

 6    from?

 7       A.   I did have information.

 8       Q.   And where did they come from?

 9       A.   Well, it's hard to answer.  Each village was defended to a certain

10    degree, so they came from the other side of the line from the direction of

11    Srebrenica, from the Srebrenica villages, there was some kind of line

12    between Bratunac and Srebrenica.

13       Q.   And do you know how long these attacks lasted?  I don't mean in

14    the sense of how long they lasted in hours and minutes, but I mean the

15    length, the period over which the attacks happened, was it months, weeks,

16    years?

17       A.   The most intense attacks were during 1992.  But they continued

18    later.  Practically until the end of the war there were incursions into

19    Serbian villages and so on.

20       Q.   Just one more question.  Could you please tell me if you received

21    information after the attacks about where the attackers withdrew, which

22    direction did they withdraw towards?

23       A.   Towards Srebrenica, the town of Srebrenica.

24       Q.   And this was during the period that Srebrenica was a protected

25    zone?

Page 6667

 1       A.   Yes, that is correct.

 2       Q.   Thank you very much.

 3            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no more questions.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

 5            I have Ms. Nikolic is going next?  I have this order indicated to

 6    me.  First Mr. Zivanovic, second Ms. Nikolic, third the Borovcanin

 7    Defence, fifth Madam Fauveau, sixth is -- fifth is the Gvero Defence, next

 8    is Mr. Haynes or Mr. Sarapa, and last is the Beara team.  This is the

 9    indication that I have.  If it's not correct, you can please feel free to

10    make whatever adjustments you wish.

11            Yes, Ms. Nikolic, go ahead.

12            MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I will not

13    have any questions for this witness.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

15            So Mr. Stojanovic.

16            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17                          Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

18       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Celanovic.

19       A.   Good afternoon.

20       Q.   I would just like to see 6D17 on the e-court system, and while I'm

21    putting the questions, if possible, I would like to also have the English

22    version, page 3, paragraph 3.  And the B/C/S version would be page 3,

23    paragraph 6.

24            While we're waiting, Mr. Celanovic, I wanted to ask you the

25    following:  You recall on the 28th of August, 2003 you gave a statement at

Page 6668

 1    the premises of the Bratunac police station to the public security centre

 2    in Bijeljina.  Was that so?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Amongst other things I'm going to read a passage to you from that

 5    statement and I would just like you to confirm it.  In the B/C/S version

 6    it's in the middle of this document, which is on the right.  And it

 7    says, "In the morning on the 12th of July."

 8            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the English

 9    version it's page 3, paragraph 1.  Or actually, the third paragraph in the

10    middle of it.  It says, "In the morning on the 12th of July."

11       Q.   Do you see that, Mr. Celanovic?

12       A.   Yes, I see that.

13       Q.   It says that on the 12th of July, together with Momir Nikolic you

14    went to the Zuti Most check-point where there was a telephone line with

15    the UNPROFOR base outside Potocari, and that on that occasion Nikolic

16    spoke with the members of the Dutch battalion from that check-point.  Do

17    you see that?

18       A.   Yes, I do.

19       Q.   Can you please clarify the following:  On the 12th of July when

20    you got there what time of the day was it?

21       A.   When I got there?

22       Q.   Yes.  Together with Mr. Nikolic.

23       A.   In the morning.  I really don't know what time it was.

24       Q.   And would you agree with me that the check-point still existed

25    then and that members of the Dutch battalion were still there at Zuti

Page 6669

 1    Most?

 2       A.   Well, I cannot agree with that.  It was not like that.  The

 3    check-point did exist.  That was the check-point where the convoys were

 4    inspected.  The convoys of humanitarian aid that were going for -- to

 5    Srebrenica.  That's where they were inspected.  But there was a direct

 6    line to the UNPROFOR base that was farther away.  That was not the

 7    UNPROFOR check-point; it was a check-point of the military police.  And

 8    then further away, two, three or 500 metres away was the UNPROFOR

 9    check-point.  That's where the UNPROFOR was.  He spoke with someone.

10       Q.   Would we agree that the check-point that you are talking about is

11    the check-point called, "the check-point at Jovo's"?  Colloquially they

12    called it that after the man who worked there.

13       A.   I didn't hear that, but I know that the check-point where the

14    humanitarian aid convoys were checked was a place where Professor Jovo

15    worked.  I mean I -- I can't remember his last name, but it's possible

16    that that's the same one.

17       Q.   And you are sure that that was when the UN or the UNPROFOR

18    check-point was contacted?

19       A.   He said that he wanted to talk to them.  I stayed outside of the

20    container, he went inside, and carried out the conversation.  He said he

21    wanted to talk to them.  I didn't hear the conversation.

22       Q.   And from the place where you were, were you able to see the

23    existence of the check-point at that point in time?

24       A.   Yes.  There was some kind of fortification, there were a lot of

25    sandbags piled up around the building where they were.  And you could see

Page 6670

 1    behind the bend, around the bend, there was some kind of barrier, a purely

 2    military barrier.  Bags with two or three rifle nests and a couple of

 3    towers.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  The next thing I would like to ask you, and I would

 5    just like to stay with the same document, but just move to page 4 of the

 6    English version, paragraph 2.  And page 4 of the B/C/S version.  Thank

 7    you.

 8            Mr. Celanovic, today the Prosecutor asked you to describe the

 9    people you described as specials who came with five or six people of

10    Muslim ethnicity.  Do you remember that?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   In the statement that you gave you said, "amongst other things,

13    that these were members of -- of a unit unknown to me, and I think that

14    they were members of a special unit, judging by their weapons and

15    equipment and they all wore black fatigues and had automatic weapons."  Do

16    you see that?

17       A.   I don't see it here.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  The -- the question implies that that is the same

20    unit that I was talking about, and -- and actually that does not appear

21    from this statement to be the case from his statement.  That can be

22    cleared up, but I don't think we should have an assumption unless it is a

23    true fact.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  The witness says that he doesn't see it there in any

25    case.  Perhaps now that he has heard your remarks if you wish to add

Page 6671

 1    anything, Witness, then please feel free to go ahead.  Otherwise, we move

 2    to the next question.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you are discussing the uniforms,

 4    most of them had black overalls.  Or maybe dark blue.  It was a dark

 5    colour.  And then there were a couple of them with camouflage uniforms, to

 6    be more specific.  I mean when I say camouflage, I mean multi-coloured

 7    ones, if that's what you're referring to.

 8            MR. STOJANOVIC:  [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   That's all I wanted to ask you about, members of special forces,

10    and I won't have any more questions about them.  Now the next topic.

11            Mr. Celanovic, the next matter that I want to turn attention to is

12    the moment when Momir Nikolic arrived with Resid Sinanovic, and when you

13    talked to Resid.  Will you please tell us, did any of them tell you where

14    they had come from.

15       A.   No.  Later on Resid told me that Momir Nikolic got him somewhere

16    near Kravica, I'm not exactly sure where, that he brought him from there

17    in his own vehicle, but Momir told me nothing.

18       Q.   Did Resid tell you whether he had surrendered or was captured?

19       A.   I think this is what he told me, that he reported to a check-point

20    in Pobudje or in another place.  These are the villages in the Kravica

21    area, and that's what he said, that he reported to that check-point.

22    That's what he said, which I think implies that he surrendered there.

23       Q.   Did he mention Konjevic Polje on that occasion?

24       A.   I can't remember.

25       Q.   Could we now see Defence exhibit 4D14, please.

Page 6672

 1            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once again, this is

 2    4D16 for the sake of the transcript.  This is the plea agreement and

 3    factual agreement or agreement on the facts provided by Momir Nikolic that

 4    we had opportunity to see here.  Let me just give you the reference,

 5    namely we need to see page 5 of the English version, paragraph 1.  And in

 6    the B/C/S version it's page 5, paragraph 2.  Thank you.  I think that's

 7    what we wanted to see.

 8            Now, Your Honours, and Mr. Celanovic, would you please look at the

 9    last sentence of the first passage, first paragraph in the English

10    version, where Momir Nikolic says, Mr. Celanovic, that upon fetching Resid

11    Sinanovic from Konjevic Polje, on his way towards Bratunac he reached the

12    Bratunac brigade and handed over Sinanovic to the military police at the

13    Bratunac Brigade headquarters specifically to a legal officer Zlatan

14    Celanovic.

15       Q.   Do you see that?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   My question is based on what you know, is it true what Momir

18    Nikolic said?

19       A.   Well, he didn't hand him over to me.  He brought him to the

20    office.  I wasn't duty-bound to take over anyone.  He simply brought him

21    into the office and left him there.  He didn't hand him over to me.  He

22    just left him there.  I don't know how people interpret this, but it

23    wasn't my duty to take over people.  But what he said here is true.

24    Namely, he did bring him to my office.

25       Q.   Can you then confirm and tell us that it was possible that Momir

Page 6673

 1    Nikolic took over Resid Sinanovic in Konjevic Polje?

 2       A.   I can't confirm that.  You mean that Momir Nikolic took him over

 3    in Konjevic Polje?  I don't know.  I don't know about that.  He brought

 4    him to Bratunac to my office.

 5       Q.   Let's try to get to the bottom of this.  Can we see the previous

 6    page, page 4, please?  Same text in both versions.  Last paragraph,

 7    please.  Would you please look at it?

 8            My question is, Mr. Celanovic, do you believe it possible, do you

 9    believe it was possible that what Momir Nikolic said was true?  Namely

10    that he, Momir Nikolic, took over Resid Sinanovic in Konjevic Polje?

11       A.   Yes, it's possible.  If that's what he says, that he took him over

12    there, then --

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection to the form of the question.  Anything

15    is possible.  That question, it really is asking this witness to

16    speculate.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  And the witness has already said, stated that he

18    don't know what happened.  So.

19            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will conclude now,

20    with the following question.

21       Q.   Mr. Celanovic, you told us about the people you saw during those

22    days in Bratunac.  My question is, did you see Ljubomir Borovcanin?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Do you know Ljubomir Borovcanin from before?

25       A.   I do.

Page 6674

 1       Q.   Did you have professional cooperation, did you have any social

 2    contacts with him before the 1995 events?

 3       A.   Yes.  We had social contacts, we knew each other, we had normal

 4    communication.

 5       Q.   Based on your contacts and your knowledge of Ljubomir Borovcanin,

 6    can you share with us your impression of that man?

 7       A.   Based on my contacts with him, my impression of him was that he

 8    was a normal, reasonable, intelligent, good man.  He liked to socialise,

 9    liked to joke.  He appeared as a normal, decent, good man.

10       Q.   During those war years did you hear anything negative about his

11    conduct towards other ethnicities or any crimes whatsoever?

12       A.   No.

13            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14            Thank you, Mr. Celanovic.

15            We have no further questions.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  I have on my list Madam Fauveau.

17            Go ahead, Madam Fauveau.

18                          Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

19       Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, you were talking about Muslims you had seen

20    in the trucks, in a bus, and in a school in Bratunac.  Is it right to say

21    that you did not see that any of these people were killed in Bratunac?

22       A.   That's correct.

23       Q.   And is it right to say that before you came to testify here in the

24    Blagojevic case in 2004 you had never heard that one single man, that

25    those people were not killed in Bratunac?

Page 6675

 1       A.   Later on I heard.  It's a difficult question.  I can't answer it

 2    just like that.  You have to be more specific which period of time.

 3    People were killed during what period of time.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau, both Judge Kwon and Judge Prost

 5    and myself were at the same time independently gazing at the question

 6    because obviously there was something wrong with it.  Perhaps you can

 7    rephrase your question, taking also into consideration what the witness

 8    has just stated.

 9            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Sir before coming to testify in this case you testified in the

11    Blagojevic case; is that right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And this was in the month of May, 2004, right?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   So on the 19th of May, 2004, page 9566, the Prosecutor asked you

16    the following question, I quote:  "[In English] Did you hear anything

17    either that evening or the next morning about bodies, 50 bodies of Muslims

18    being found at that Vuk Karadzic school or in one of the buildings right

19    behind it?"

20            [Interpretation] And you have answered to that question by

21    saying:  "[In English] I didn't hear anything about that.  I hear it for

22    the first time that bodies were found either in the school or around the

23    school."

24            [Interpretation] My question is as follows:  Is it right to say

25    that you heard for the first time that some bodies were found at the Vuk

Page 6676

 1    Karadzic school or around that school, the first time you heard about it

 2    was in the month of May, 2004?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And before that date you had never heard about any bodies in

 5    Bratunac or around Bratunac on the 12th and 13th of July; is that right?

 6    My question was only concerning Bratunac, the streets of Bratunac and

 7    the school of Bratunac.  I believe that there is a mistake in the

 8    translation.

 9       A.   Could you please repeat it again, your question?

10       Q.   Sir, before the month of May, 2004, you had never heard that some

11    people were killed in Bratunac in the school of Bratunac or on the streets

12    of Bratunac?

13       A.   I heard not at the school or in the streets of Bratunac, but in

14    Kravica, and Kravica belongs to Bratunac.  So I did hear, I heard that

15    people were killed, Muslims were killed in Kravica.  I heard that on the

16    14th or 15th of July.

17       Q.   Sir, my question regards only the city of Bratunac, not the

18    municipality of Bratunac.

19       A.   I didn't hear.

20       Q.   Is it exact to say that you went to Potocari when the Muslim

21    refugees were in Potocari?

22       A.   Outside of Potocari.

23       Q.   And is it exact to say that you went to Potocari to bring

24    Dr. Vesna Ivanovic, as well as a nurse?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 6677

 1       Q.   And the doctor and the nurse went to Potocari in order to give

 2    medical help to refugees if that was -- if there was a need for their

 3    help; is that right?

 4       A.   Most likely that was the reason.  What else could it be?  They

 5    said that they were going there in order to provide treatment to any

 6    patients in case somebody got sick in that heat.  That was the explanation

 7    they gave.  I was simply asked to drive them there.  They couldn't go

 8    there on foot.

 9       Q.   And they had received the -- an order to go to Potocari; is that

10    right?

11       A.   I don't know whether they received an order.  Most likely they

12    did, but at any rate they explained the reason why I needed to drive them

13    to Potocari.

14       Q.   Is it exact to say that during the war and in 1995 there were some

15    power restrictions in Bratunac?

16       A.   There were, yes.  There were restrictions, both in power and

17    water-supply.  Yes, it happened because the system was out of order.

18       Q.   Is it exact to say that there wasn't enough food in Bratunac?

19       A.   Correct.

20       Q.   And the hospital in Bratunac did not have sufficient medication;

21    is that right?

22       A.   You put a difficult question.  I heard that there was a problem

23    with medications and that they obtained various medications through the

24    Red Cross of Yugoslavia and from abroad and so on, which means that the

25    supply wasn't a regular one.  Now, as to just how bad shortages were, I

Page 6678

 1    don't know.  All I know is people tried to collect medication from all

 2    sources.  I know about that because I talked to doctors at the time.

 3       Q.   Is it right to say that when we talk about supplies that came from

 4    Yugoslavia that it stopped in 1994?

 5       A.   I don't know when it stopped.  I think that when Serbia introduced

 6    sanctions towards the Republika Srpska, then, yes, the supplies were

 7    drastically reduced.  Now, as to when the sanctions were introduced, I

 8    can't remember that.  The population definitely felt them, because there

 9    were shortages of everything.

10       Q.   Is it true that within your functions you could sometimes control

11    the humanitarian convoys which were going to Srebrenica?

12       A.   It's true in two possible situations.  One was when the chief of

13    security wasn't there, wasn't able to go, then the commander would order

14    me to go and get paperwork.  And the other situation was when security

15    reasons required me, I would get involved and help Nikolic and military

16    police which physically searched the vehicles.  This happened if convoys

17    were too big.

18       Q.   Would you agree that there were more humanitarian convoys going to

19    Srebrenica than convoys going to Bratunac?

20       A.   Yes.  I could also add something by your leave.  The same convoys

21    arrived, but for example out of 10 trucks with food, two would go to

22    Bratunac and eight or nine would go to Srebrenica.  That's how it was.

23    Perhaps there were some special deliveries too, I don't remember.  But

24    once they went through the check-point, usually one or two vehicles would

25    remain in the distribution centre and the remaining vehicles, sometimes

Page 6679

 1    that would be up to 20, would go to Srebrenica.  So there was a big

 2    difference in the number of vehicles going to Srebrenica and Bratunac.

 3            MS. FAUVEAU: [No interpretation]

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.  Thank you Madam Fauveau.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Krgovic, please.

 6                          Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

 7       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Celanovic, I will put a couple of questions

 8    to you in relation to what you discussed with the Prosecutor,

 9    Mr. Zivanovic and Madam Fauveau.  You said that you assisted in the work

10    of investigative organs, that you collected some documents regarding war

11    crimes and that you also participated in the inspection of convoys.  As

12    far as I could understand you, this was not part of your regular duties,

13    the regular duties that you performed as a lawyer in the organ for legal

14    affairs and moral guidance.  Is that right?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   These other tasks that the commander assigned to you in addition

17    to your regular job duties?

18       A.   Precisely so.

19       Q.   And you reported directly to the commander on these tasks?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   You did not report to the assistant for legal affairs and moral

22    guidance in the brigade, did you?

23       A.   No, I did not, because that was the arrangement with the

24    commander.

25       Q.   I have a problem with the translation.  Let me repeat.  You did

Page 6680

 1    not report to the assistant for moral guidance, but rather you reported to

 2    the commander?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Another question that I wanted to put to you.  In your statement

 5    given to the security centre in Bratunac you mentioned at one point that

 6    you saw members of the Dutch battalion of UNPROFOR in Bratunac, sometime

 7    in July of 1995.  Do you remember saying this in your statement?

 8       A.   Yes, I also remember seeing them.  If it is in the statement, it

 9    is correct.

10       Q.   Can you tell me, under what circumstances did you see them?  Let

11    me paraphrase your statement.  It says here that you saw them in front of

12    the military police building.  Do you remember that?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Were they armed?  Did they have their personal weapons on them?

15       A.   Rifles.

16       Q.   Did you find out the reason for them being there in Bratunac?

17       A.   Yes, I did learn about the reason.  It was quite a large group.

18    At one point I asked the military police commander about them, what was

19    going on with them, and he said either that they had crossed over to our

20    side, or that they had surrendered, although it's not quite logical,

21    because they were still armed.  He used this strange expression, they had

22    crossed over to our side.  That's what I remember.

23       Q.   And do you know why they crossed over to your side?

24       A.   Based on what he said, on what he learned from them, there was a

25    conflict with the armed forces from Srebrenica.  I'm now referring to the

Page 6681

 1    conflict between the forces of the international community, namely

 2    UNPROFOR, with the army from Srebrenica and that somebody got hurt, was

 3    either killed or wounded.  Some of their members were killed or wounded on

 4    that occasion.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the last bit of

 6    the answer.

 7            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   So they took shelter?

 9       A.   At any rate, they found themselves in Bratunac.

10       Q.   So they took shelter in Bratunac, you said the army, the conflict

11    was between the members of UNPROFOR and Muslims, right?

12       A.   Muslims, yes.  But soldiers, Muslims.  And he also said to me

13    something about the interpreter saying that they were afraid of being

14    there because they felt threatened.  They felt threatened both by Muslims

15    and Serbs, but they trusted Serbs more, so this is why they came to Serbs.

16    They trusted us more, thinking that we wouldn't harm them.  "We" meaning

17    the Serbs, the Serbian army.

18       Q.   When you say "up there" you mean the areas from which they had

19    come?

20       A.   Yes, the Muslim territory where this happened to them.  This was

21    in one of the villages around Srebrenica.

22       Q.   I wanted to ask you something else.  In your statement you

23    mentioned that you heard about the attack on Srebrenica several days

24    before it took place.  Can you please tell me what did you learn about the

25    reasons for the attack on Srebrenica?  Why did the Serbian forces commence

Page 6682

 1    this offensive?

 2       A.   It was a little bit strange.  Srebrenica was under the protection

 3    of international "PRO" forces, it was a protected enclave and shouldn't

 4    have been attacked, but there were different comments and it's true

 5    actually that they carried out and I know that, carried out occasional

 6    incursions even after they were disarmed.  They showed to the world that

 7    they had been disarmed, but they continued to come to our villages and

 8    attack and kill.  The pretext was the burning of a village near Sekovici

 9    or Vlasenica and that a lot of people were killed, there was a lot of

10    misfortune inflicted on that village and it was decided that they should

11    be definitely disarmed.  That was the last cause, but actually the cause

12    was the constant incursions and the fear that this would be repeated.  Not

13    all the time, but quite frequently.

14       Q.   Were you aware, did you know about any plan that provided for the

15    entire Muslim population to be expelled from that area?

16       A.   No.

17            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no

18    further questions.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

20            Mr. Haynes.

21            MR. HAYNES:  Your Honour, I have no questions for this witness.

22    Thank you very much.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  And that brings us back to you,

24    Mr. Ostojic.

25            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  May I proceed?

Page 6683

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead.

 2                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

 3       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Celanovic.

 4       A.   Good afternoon.

 5       Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you can you some of your direct testimony,

 6    but let me just clear one thing up.  During the two times that you

 7    testified that you spoke with Mr. Beara on July 12th and 13th of 1995, am

 8    I correct that Mr. Beara never used or made derogatory remarks or comments

 9    against the Muslims?

10       A.   Not in front of me.  I never heard that.  He always behaved as an

11    officer and used the appropriate terms.  Maybe he used the term "enemy" or

12    something like that.

13       Q.   Sir, let me ask you -- thank you.  Let me ask you this, sir:  Were

14    you ever a crime investigation inspector while you were with the Bratunac

15    Brigade?

16       A.   No, I never was an inspector, but I don't know what sort of

17    criminal investigations you mean.  It's a broad question.  Could you

18    please be more specific?

19       Q.   Okay.  I'll try.

20       A.   In respect of whom?

21       Q.   I'll try.  How about specifically on the 4th of March, 1993, were

22    you ever a crime investigation inspector?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Just so that I know exactly what your position was in July of

25    1995, can you tell me again what division or unit or station you were

Page 6684

 1    specifically in July of 1995?

 2       A.   I didn't belong to any unit as such.  I was simply an organ of the

 3    Bratunac Brigade command.  I was a clerk for morale, religious and legal

 4    matters.  That was my function.

 5       Q.   If we can have for you, sir, with the Court's permission, and the

 6    usher's assistance, P02406 on the ELMO and the corresponding B/C/S version

 7    of that document, which I can give you the ERN number if you'd like.

 8            I said ELMO; obviously e-court, I'm sorry.  Thank you.  If we

 9    could have the English one on the left side of that split screen.  Again

10    it's P02406.

11            Sir, looking at this document, I'm just going to highlight a

12    couple of things and we will, I'm sure if you like, spend as much time as

13    you want to because you are under oath and I want to give you the

14    opportunity to clarify anything you have said.  Do you remember, sir, this

15    report dated the 4th of March, 1993?  Do you remember it?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   If we can just turn -- and I'm sorry we're going to switch just a

18    little bit, to the fifth page of that report, both in the -- or the last

19    page in the English and B/C/S version.

20            Sir, on the English version there is no signature but it's

21    obviously identified as being a document signed by you.  I think that's

22    you, Zlatan Celanovic, and do you see the B/C/S version, sir, is that your

23    signature that appears on the last page of this document?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Am I correct then that you created this document, sir?

Page 6685

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Let's go back to the first page, if you don't mind.  And we will

 3    be focusing on the top portion, top left-hand portion of that page for the

 4    moment.

 5            Now, sir, looking at the top left-hand portion of the document you

 6    created and signed on or about the 4th of March, 1993, you identify

 7    yourself in the first line with your name and what position you hold, a

 8    reserve soldier, and underneath, sir, you type in specifically that you

 9    were at that time a crime investigation inspector.  Correct?  At least

10    according to this report.

11       A.   That is what the war headquarters named me when I was mobilised.

12    They said you will be doing these assignments.  That's what they said.

13    But I can explain what I actually did.  I was never given an order that I

14    was appointed to such a position.

15       Q.   Okay.  Well my question earlier to you wasn't limited to whether

16    you were given a written, specific order.  I asked you specifically, were

17    you ever a crime investigation inspector while you were with the Bratunac

18    Brigade.  Were you?

19       A.   Not as an inspector, no.  I would have to explain in a couple of

20    sentences what it means to investigate.

21            These are criminal affairs.  As part of disciplinary proceedings,

22    I compiled statements and documents which indicate that there was a

23    discipline violation committed by the soldier.  If it should turn out that

24    on the basis of his acts he had committed a criminal act, then the same

25    documents and the same statements would be compiled, and that's what you

Page 6686

 1    would name, what such a -- such work was.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's change the subject and move to something else,

 3    please.

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:

 5       Q.   Next question I have, sir, as a -- whatever during your time in

 6    1993, had you also interrogated Muslim prisoners or detainees or prisoners

 7    of war at that time?

 8       A.   Yes.  In early 1993, five or six people.  Everything else was in

 9    1992.

10       Q.   What about -- do you remember interrogating 35 of them in 1993, as

11    reflected in your report that we have in front of us?  Do you remember

12    that?  And maybe if we turn to page 3 of that corresponding report, it

13    might help him if he needs it.

14       A.   It's not necessary.  Could you please formulate the question?

15    Not -- it's not that 35 people were interrogated in 1993, but the report

16    was made in that year.  I think the question to me was whether I had

17    interrogated 35 people in 1993.  No.  That's when the report was made, and

18    it refers to the period from the beginning of the war up to the date that

19    the report was compiled.

20       Q.   Okay.  I'll take a closer look -- yes, I'll take a closer look at

21    that, sir.

22            Let me ask you this, sir:  Have you ever been informed by the

23    Office of the Prosecutor as to what your status is here or even when you

24    testified in the Blagojevic case?  In other words, sir, are you considered

25    by the Prosecutor as a suspect?

Page 6687

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And who told you that you were a suspect?

 3       A.   I was told by the investigator from the Prosecutor's officer or

 4    from the Tribunal, Mr. Alastair Graham, I think it was.

 5       Q.   When did you first obtain that status, sir, as a suspect?

 6       A.   I was told about the status the first time when the gentleman that

 7    I named came to my office in Bratunac to take a statement from me about

 8    the matters that I am testifying about today.  I was told that according

 9    to some indications I have the status of a suspect, I was informed about

10    my rights, and I provided a statement.

11       Q.   And that was before you testified in the Blagojevic case,

12    correct?

13       A.   Correct.

14       Q.   And you gave that interview, sir, in December of 2003.  Do you

15    remember?

16       A.   Yes, I remember the conversation, the interview.

17       Q.   Let me ask you a couple of questions about the Blagojevic case.

18    You testified in that case as a defence witness, correct?

19       A.   That's correct.

20       Q.   And sir, in preparation for that case, did you assist the

21    attorneys in the Blagojevic case with other witnesses at all in the

22    defence of your commander, Vidoje Blagojevic?

23       A.   I don't see how I could have helped them with other witnesses.  I

24    was engaged as a witness and I gave my statement.  I didn't understand

25    your question well, if you are asking something else.  This is a fact that

Page 6688

 1    is known to the Court and to the Prosecution, that I was then a witness

 2    for the Defence.  I was here in the court, and I gave a statement or I

 3    testified.

 4       Q.   And I appreciate very much, sir, you telling me if you don't

 5    understand the question, I'll try to restate it.  Based upon information

 6    and belief that I have, sir, and you correct me if I'm wrong, you met with

 7    the Blagojevic defence team on numerous occasions and assisted in typing

 8    out and interviewing other potential witnesses that they may bring forth

 9    in the Blagojevic case.  Is that true or false?

10       A.   Partially it's true.  They used my computer and internet

11    connection.  That was my help.  They didn't have anywhere else to go.

12       Q.   Now how many witnesses did they use your computer and your help --

13    and internet connection, I'm sorry.

14       A.   They came to my place themselves, and used the internet.  Since it

15    was in English, I never turned it on, I don't know what they wrote.  I

16    didn't look.  Specifically Mr. Michael Karnavas used the computer and the

17    internet.  Because they had no other place where they could have this

18    service, so they asked me if they could use my computer and internet.

19       Q.   And --

20       A.   And then they caused a lot of viruses, so they actually messed

21    things up for me when they used my computer.

22       Q.   I'll move along quickly.  I just want to know when this

23    approximately, sir, and how many witness did you help them out with?

24       A.   I don't understand the question.  Again, I had nothing to do with

25    other witnesses.  Maybe they got a couple of names of people who

Page 6689

 1    potentially knew something and they contacted those people without my

 2    presence.  They didn't ask for any other help.  Who would be able to

 3    know?  And that person would be able to know.  And they searched for

 4    themselves a little bit, they had Mr. Lugonic, who was looking for those

 5    people.  I gave them information and then they engaged him.  The most

 6    important thing for him was my comments.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think witness you don't need to give such long

 8    answers.  I mean I think if you restrict your answers to a yes or no, or

 9    to a simple explanation, we'll get finished faster.  Mr. Ostojic, I

10    suppose you can move to something else as well.

11            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

12       Q.   Sir, let me ask you this about Vidoje Blagojevic:  Was he present

13    in Bratunac during the day or days after the fall of Srebrenica in July of

14    1995?

15       A.   I don't remember exactly when I saw him after the fall of

16    Srebrenica, but during those two, three, four to five days I definitely

17    did not see him before or after.  I didn't see him.

18       Q.   Do you know where he was during those four or five days

19    immediately after the fall of Srebrenica?

20       A.   I don't know where he was.

21       Q.   Let me ask you something about the Bratunac Brigade.  Do you know

22    if they were the personnel, from that brigade, that was securing or

23    assisting in securing the Muslim detainees in the school and the stadium,

24    as you have testified to on direct this morning -- or this afternoon?

25       A.   I'm not quite sure.  I think that I saw several guards in the

Page 6690

 1    street next to the municipal building when I was standing on the corner at

 2    dusk.  I think judging just by the uniforms that they were members of the

 3    Bratunac Brigade.  I didn't go up to them, however.  It's possible that it

 4    was them, I'm not sure.  I couldn't mention anyone by name.  I'm not

 5    saying that they were, and I'm not saying that they were not, but judging

 6    by the uniforms, they could have been members of our brigade.

 7       Q.   Now, specifically I know you mentioned the municipal building, but

 8    I'm talking about the Vuk Karadzic school where you took this walk that

 9    one day or evening.  Do you remember seeing any Bratunac Brigade personnel

10    near or around the Vuk Karadzic school, July 12th, I think you said, 1995,

11    or 13th?

12       A.   Again, about the names, let's just have it as a school, it's

13    either Vuk Karadzic or Branko Radicevic.  In any case it is the school

14    where people were placed and I saw at dusk when I got there with Mr. Beara

15    on the right-hand side towards the municipal building.  I'm talking about

16    the position where those people were, the school is in front to the right

17    the street leads towards the municipal building, and next to an old

18    building there were four to five people who, by the way they looked,

19    seemed to be from the Bratunac Brigade, from our brigade.  I didn't see

20    them during the day.

21       Q.   And thank you for that, sir.  Just so we'll clear, we will call it

22    the school, but I want to make sure we're talking about the same school

23    where the detainees were kept during the time immediately after the fall

24    of Srebrenica.  Whatever the name is, we can work with it by identifying

25    it that way.

Page 6691

 1            How about near the stadium?  Did you see any Bratunac Brigade

 2    personnel near the stadium on or about July 12th and 13th, 1995?

 3       A.   I really couldn't tell.  I could see several soldiers standing

 4    there, just several soldiers standing there because I was at the market

 5    when I was standing there.  It was too far away, and it was dark, and I

 6    really couldn't tell if they belonged to the Bratunac Brigade or not.  In

 7    any case some of them were there, because I stayed at the market while

 8    Mr. Beara went up to the gate.

 9       Q.   Okay.  How long were you at the market that night?

10       A.   Half a minute to a minute.  Until Mr. Beara came back from the

11    gate and then we continued towards the school.  Well, let's say two

12    minutes, 50 or 60 steps that he needed to cross from there to here.  Let's

13    say it was three to five minutes.  Not a very long time, not very long.

14       Q.   Now, am I correct, sir, in reading your interview and your

15    statements that when you saw Mr. Beara on July 12th, 1995, purportedly,

16    that he was alone, by himself, correct?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And the next day that you saw him he was also alone, according to

19    your interview and statements, correct?

20       A.   He was by himself when he was talking to me.  Both on the 12th and

21    the 13th.

22       Q.   That's all I wanted to clarify, sir.

23            Now, do you remember, sir, when you -- prior to taking this walk

24    purportedly with Mr. Beara that you actually went out, out of curiosity,

25    to see what was happening in the town and you walked through the same

Page 6692

 1    area, the school and the stadium, before Mr. Beara arrived?  Do you

 2    remember stating that in your interview or statements?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And, in fact, sir --

 5       A.   Correct.

 6       Q.   And that was about 2100 hours, according to your statement,

 7    correct?  Later in the evening, you went out, took a stroll to see what

 8    was happening and that's where you saw the buses and trucks, correct?

 9       A.   About 9.00, 9.30, if I say approximately; it could be an hour more

10    or less.  I can't be precise.  Any time.  It's when we were going, I was

11    going during the day by myself independently.

12       Q.   Well, I want to just clarify that.  According to your statement

13    though sir, it was that you went out that night prior to meeting

14    supposedly, Mr. Beara, prior to that, you went out at approximately 2100

15    hours to take a look around town, if you will.  Do you remember giving

16    that testimony or statement?

17       A.   I don't think that that's in the statement or that the statement

18    goes like that.

19       Q.   Well, let's take a quick look at it.  It's a minor point, but I

20    want to make sure I'm on the same pages you.  If we could look at 6D 17 on

21    the e-court.  And I'm going to -- if we could just go to page 3 of that

22    statement.  Thank you, I'm sorry.

23            Do you have your statement here sir on e-court in front of you

24    dated the 28th of August, 2003, and directing your attention to the second

25    half of that statement.  It starts -- and it's not identified with a

Page 6693

 1    specific paragraph, so therefore I can not identify the paragraph.  But it

 2    states, "At around 2100 hours I went out of curiosity," and then you

 3    describe that you went up and down the street, and you went to the

 4    elementary school.  Then it goes on to say that you noticed that the

 5    street was full of trucks.  Do you see that?

 6       A.   Yes, yes, I do.

 7       Q.   And then only later in that statement, sir, actually on the next

 8    page when you -- on the lower portion of that page when you identify that

 9    you spoke with Mr. Beara and the next page you say you talked and you

10    walked with Mr. Beara, right?

11       A.   The 2100 hours refers to the 12th of July, not to the 13th of July

12    if you look up there you would see that it's referring to the 12th.  When

13    I was giving the statement I could tell what I was doing the day before,

14    because I had been able to establish exactly what I was doing on the 13th.

15    In the evening of the 12th, I saw those who were arriving and then the

16    next day, too, I saw them.

17       Q.   Okay.  And the next day would be with Mr. Beara, correct,

18    according to you?

19       A.   Correct.

20       Q.   And that would be the next day in the evening, correct?

21       A.   Correct.

22       Q.   Now, sir, in this statement here if you see, do you remember

23    talking to the bus drivers when you went out for this curious walk and

24    being informed by them that the Muslim detainees were going to be driven

25    to Kladanj the next day.  Do you remember that they told you that, the bus

Page 6694

 1    drivers?

 2       A.   Correct.  They told me during the day when I went.  Not in the

 3    evening, during the day.  Not in the evening when I was with Mr. Beara.  I

 4    never talked with anybody then.  I went to take a bath and to change on

 5    the 13th, or possibly on the 12th in the evening around 9.00 that they

 6    told me, "Why are you not driving the people, how come you're standing

 7    around," and I got the answer.

 8       Q.   Okay.  And that was on the 12th before your meeting with

 9    Mr. Beara, correct?

10       A.   It was on the 12th at night, or on the 13th during the day.  I

11    cannot remember when it was that I asked a couple of drivers exactly what

12    it was all about.

13       Q.   And the bus drivers also told you there was some sort of

14    reorganisation, didn't they?

15       A.   Yes, and that they had the information about the reasons for

16    stopping.

17       Q.   And, sir, Mr. Beara, that was way before you allegedly met

18    Mr. Beara for the first time.  You had this information before you met

19    Mr. Beara, correct?

20       A.   Not much earlier.  Not much before.  Probably the 12th in the

21    evening or on the 13th, around midday, was when I got the information.  I

22    mean I don't know what it states here, I don't know if dates are

23    mentioned.  Because I went twice, the evening before and then I met

24    Mr. Beara either in the morning or in the -- in the evening or in the

25    morning, and then on the 13th after Resid Sinanovic and the group left me,

Page 6695

 1    I was already tired.  Nobody else came.  I went home to have a quick

 2    shower and to change and that's when I went to see if anything had

 3    changed.  In one of those trips to the street I had these comments with

 4    the drivers.  They had information like that.  I don't know who they got

 5    the information from.

 6       Q.   Now, just so I understand your testimony, sir, do you remember

 7    supposedly informing Mr. Beara that the town was not secure and that you

 8    invited him to take this walk so that you could show him that the town was

 9    not secure?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think that question was put to him even in more

11    detail earlier on, and he has answered it.

12            MR. OSTOJIC:  If he has, I'll move on, Your Honour.  I'm sorry.  I

13    didn't remember it.

14       Q.   Do you remember, sir, when you met with Mr. Beara that you had

15    told him that you had this Chronicle of Our Graves and that you

16    participated in gathering information for the book having collected

17    eyewitness accounts of Serbs when Serb villages were destroyed and Serbian

18    civilians killed.  Do you remember that?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   I'm looking at your statement and if we could just turn to it, the

21    same one that should be on the ELMO at page 4, this is what you write and

22    I want to ask you to confirm it.  Or if you want to comment on it, you

23    can. You state -- I'll wait for it to get on, if we could have both.

24    We're on page 4, the top portion, if we may.  Is this 6D17?  Yes?  I don't

25    believe the English correlates, but I can read it or we can wait,

Page 6696

 1    Your Honour; whatever your pleasure is.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think if you can read it, that will make

 3    everybody's life easier.

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.  I just didn't want to -- I think my

 5    learned colleague has it.

 6       Q.   It states, "He told me to use what I had and if the soldiers

 7    brought someone to the military police, it was my task to identify the

 8    persons brought in terms of whether they were suspects.  He said that if

 9    any of the suspects were on the list I was to inform a security officer so

10    that such persons --"

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop.  Stop, Mr. Ostojic.  This has been dealt with

12    already.  The question was put to him.  He answered it.  And it is

13    precisely a repetition of what you are stating.  I'm sure if you stop for

14    a minute and go back to the transcript, you will find it.  Or take my word

15    for it.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  I will obviously take your word for it, Your Honour.

17       Q.   Sir, let me ask you this:  Who is Miroslav Deronjic?

18       A.   Miroslav Deronjic is a politician from Bratunac.  He was the

19    president of the municipality for a while, the president of the SDS.

20       Q.   Was he, sir, near or in the town immediately after the fall of

21    Srebrenica in July of 1995, if you remember?

22       A.   I don't remember meeting him.  I didn't really walk around town

23    much.  He didn't go up there.  At least I didn't see him.

24       Q.   Let's talk about the interview that you had with this gentleman

25    Resid Sinanovic.  Sir, I want to ask you this:  Is it true that after you

Page 6697

 1    interviewed Mr. Sinanovic that you were not alone in your interview but

 2    another gentleman joined you in your offices to speak with Mr. Sinanovic;

 3    is that correct?

 4       A.   It's correct, yes.

 5       Q.   And what's that gentleman's name?  Do you remember?

 6       A.   Srbislav Davidovic.

 7       Q.   Okay.  And how long did -- what's his nickname, Buco?

 8       A.   His nickname is not Buco, it's Buco?

 9       Q.   How long was Mr. Davidovic with you and Mr. Sinanovic in your

10    office with you when you were interviewing him?

11       A.   To be exactly, I spoke with Resid for about an hour, and

12    Mr. Davidovic spoke with Resid for an hour.  While he talked to him I was

13    there for 10 to 15 minutes and then I went out so that they could speak as

14    good old friends without my presence, and he stayed with him for about an

15    hour.

16       Q.   Who, if anyone, did you call then after your meeting to transport

17    Mr. Sinanovic to the school?

18       A.   I didn't call anyone.  The policemen went in themselves.  It was a

19    question of who were these people, the so-called specials, the two or

20    three people.  They entered the office because they knew, I informed them

21    that he was there.  You couldn't really kid around with them, they needed

22    to know that there was another person whom Nikolic had brought in and that

23    he was a colleague and that he wouldn't be there for long.  And he wasn't

24    there for long and they were there to take him away.  That's it.

25       Q.   Who within the Bratunac Brigade, including your immediate

Page 6698

 1    superior, Major Jeftic or Mr. Blagojevic, did you inform about these two

 2    instances where prisoners were brought to you?

 3       A.   No one.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic, how much more do you have?

 5            MR. OSTOJIC:  15, 20 minutes.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we'll have a break now.  And then we will

 7    continue afterwards.  Thank you.  Usual 25 minutes.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

11            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12       Q.   Mr. Witness, we're almost done here, just a few more questions.

13    Continuing on with Mr. Sinanovic, is it true, sir, that people from

14    Bratunac actually visited Mr. Sinanovic when he was detained in the

15    school?

16       A.   Yes, that's correct.

17       Q.   And these people were neighbours and acquaintances of

18    Mr. Sinanovic; correct?

19       A.   Correct.

20       Q.   And these people were Stojan Ilic; correct?

21       A.   Correct.

22       Q.   And who is other individual?

23       A.   Mladoljub, I can't remember his last name right now.  Krsmanovic.

24    Mladoljub Krsmanovic, nicknamed Vampir.

25       Q.   Okay.  With respect to these two individuals, do you know what

Page 6699

 1    their ethnic -- ethnicity is?

 2       A.   Serbs.

 3       Q.   And did you learn from them that they went to the school to visit

 4    Mr. Sinanovic after you had interviewed them?

 5       A.   I learned from Stojan Ilic that the two of them had been to

 6    school.

 7       Q.   Now, sir, you came forward to the Bratunac police station, or in

 8    Republika Srpska there to give your statement on August 28th, 2003,

 9    because why?

10       A.   Because I was summoned.

11       Q.   Well, isn't it accurate sir that the reason you gave your

12    statement on the 28th of August, 2003, was because you were following the

13    proceedings here in The Hague against Mr. Momir Nikolic?

14       A.   I don't understand the question.  I simply received summons from

15    police to appear and give statement about what I knew about Srebrenica in

16    1995.

17       Q.   Did you testify in any other case other than in the Blagojevic

18    case in The Hague?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Let me ask you this, sir:  With respect to Mr. Beara and the time

21    that you met him, the first time that you claim that you met him, how did

22    Mr. Beara leave?  On foot or in a car?

23       A.   On foot.  From the gate of the command to the command building,

24    there are 50 metres.  He went to the building.

25       Q.   And the second time that you claim that you saw Mr. Beara, how did

Page 6700

 1    he leave on the second time?

 2       A.   Same.

 3       Q.   Now, sir, am I correct in understanding that you decided on your

 4    own to stop interrogating the Muslim detainees in Bratunac in July of

 5    1995, correct?

 6       A.   I had nobody else to interrogate.

 7       Q.   But my point is though, sir, that no one told you to stop

 8    interrogating any Muslim detainees, you did it on your own, correct?

 9       A.   Nobody told me anything, because there weren't any anymore.

10       Q.   Well, how many detainees were in the school, sir?

11       A.   I think several hundred, maybe more.

12       Q.   Did you interrogate any of those detainees?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Why not?

15       A.   I did not receive instructions to go to school.

16       Q.   How about at the stadium, did you interrogate or interview any of

17    the detainees in the stadium?

18       A.   I already told you that I didn't go to the stadium.

19       Q.   Fair enough.  Sir, I think it was during your direct, I think you

20    said after that second purported meeting with Mr. Beara, you never saw him

21    again, correct?

22       A.   Not until today, no.

23       Q.   That's all the questions I have.

24            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

Page 6701

 1            Mr. McCloskey, is there re-examination?

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Briefly.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 4                          Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 5       Q.   You said you've known Mr. Borovcanin for a long time.  Is he a

 6    long-time Bratunac resident?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Isn't his family living there?

 9       A.   I don't know where his family lives.  But he was there two years

10    before the Srebrenica event.  That's when he was in Bratunac, two to two

11    and a half years.

12       Q.   1993 -- the 1993 time-frame?

13       A.   Roughly.  1994.

14       Q.   And what was his position, if any, in Bratunac?

15       A.   He worked in police.  Whether he was the Chief of Police or

16    commander of the station, I don't know.  One of the two.

17       Q.   So he was a -- a superior in the Bratunac municipal police?

18       A.   While he was in office.

19       Q.   Yes.  Do you know if that was a public security or state

20    security?

21       A.   It was police station.

22       Q.   Okay.

23       A.   Civilian police.

24       Q.   Now, talking about that check-point that regulated the

25    international -- the humanitarian convoys, did you have information that

Page 6702

 1    that check-point functioned in accordance with the orders of the Main

 2    Staff of the VRS and orders of the brigade commander?

 3       A.   I have information that the check-point functioned in accordance

 4    of the brigade commander.  Now, as to whether somebody above him issued

 5    orders, I don't know about that because he approved that check-point, and

 6    people were assigned to man it.

 7       Q.   You were asked about whether you were aware of any killings in

 8    Bratunac, and I want to ask you about the Vuk Karadzic school.  Were you

 9    aware of -- do you have any information about killings at the Vuk Karadzic

10    school in Bratunac in 1992?

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

12            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this question was

13    already put to the witness, and the witness already answered that

14    question.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm just joining, Your Honour.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  What do you have to say about that?

18            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have prior testimony that would indicate that if

19    perhaps he -- I could refresh his recollection, the answer might be a

20    little different.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  So refer him straight away to his prior testimony.

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:

23       Q.   Do you remember being asked about whether you'd heard about --

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Another thing that Judge Prost is pointing out to me

25    and which I had not noticed is line 20 on page 79.  Bratunac in 1992.

Page 6703

 1    It's 1995.

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Your Honour.  The reason I asked that

 3    question is that Ms. Fauveau asked a very broad question about killings in

 4    Bratunac and -- before he testified, and that's why I'm going back to --

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go straight to what you -- you want to confront the

 6    witness with.

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8       Q.   Do you -- had you heard that there were killings in the Vuk

 9    Karadzic school in 1992 of Muslim detainees?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  In 1992 or 1995?

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  1992.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

13            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

14            THE FRENCH INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  Inaudible.

15            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will have to object

16    on the basis that this question is not relevant in this case.  It is

17    completely outside of the frame, time-frame covered by this indictment.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic.

19            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll join also, but it is also outside the scope of

20    the cross, Your Honours.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  What do you have to say about this objection?

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Throughout the defence in our case for forcible

23    transfer the Defence has suggested that people left voluntarily or their

24    own free will.  We have heard evidence in this case that people, Muslims,

25    left the area because of their knowledge or hearing of various events and

Page 6704

 1    murders that have occurred in the -- in the area of Bratunac in 1992.

 2    This particular incident was mentioned by at least one witness, and when

 3    the door is opened as wide as it was opened by the Defence, I would just

 4    prefer to bring that in.  But it is of course your call.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  We will confer on this.

 6                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  If you have further questions, Mr. McCloskey, go

 8    ahead.  But let's drop this.  I think it's outside the scope of what we

 9    are discussing.

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I won't ask that if that's what you think.  Thank

11    you.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Stojanovic, yes.

13            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a

14    good opportunity, given that the Prosecutor raised an issue after my

15    cross-examination about the position of Mr. Borovcanin in Bratunac before

16    the Srebrenica event.  We can discuss with the Prosecution during which

17    time Mr. Borovcanin was in Bratunac, and holding which post, and who -- to

18    whom he was superior.  We can stipulate this with the Prosecution and we

19    are prepared to discuss this in order to establish whether Mr. Borovcanin

20    was indeed employed at the police station and indeed on this post.

21    Mr. Borovcanin came to Bratunac in August of 1992, and he left it in

22    February of 1994.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop.  My question to you, stop -- because the

24    witness is still present.  My question to you is this:  Are you in effect

25    contesting the witness, what he stated in relation to your client?

Page 6705

 1    Because that you are required to do if you don't agree with what he

 2    stated.  Otherwise I suggest that you -- we do not discuss any further,

 3    and we let this gentleman go.

 4            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  We don't have

 5    any problems with what the witness said.  The witness said what he knew,

 6    roughly two years, which is approximately the accurate period of time, so

 7    that's fine.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 9            Sir, you have come to the end of your testimony.  I thank you for

10    having come over to give testimony, and on behalf of everyone I wish you a

11    safe journey back home.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                          [The witness withdrew]

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  So, documents.  You all have the list, I suppose.

15    Are there any objections on the part of the Defence to the admission of

16    any of these documents?  We hear none.

17            So they are all admitted as indicated in the list.  There are none

18    of them that you require to be under seal.

19            MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Thank you.  So they are so

21    admitted.  Madam Registrar will take care of registering these.

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I also noticed that the defence

23    used the statement of facts with Momir Nikolic and quite a pit of a was

24    put on the screen.  We will be offering that into evidence through Momir

25    Nikolic and others, and if we can mark it for evidence now and perhaps put

Page 6706

 1    that part of it mentioned in evidence, if not the whole thing.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  I was just on the point of asking the Defence if

 3    they wish to tender any documents.

 4            Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

 5            MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in preparing for

 6    today's hearing we verified whether this exhibit was already admitted into

 7    evidence, since if you remember we used it during the evidence of the

 8    Deputy Commander of the Dutch battalion.  It was admitted at that time,

 9    but we discussed at that time whether the whole document would be admitted

10    or just a portion of it, and you ruled on it, Your Honours and we do not

11    have any problems with that.  And this is why we do not tender it into

12    evidence today.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I thank you for that explanation.

14            Do you concur, Mr. McCloskey?

15            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can't -- thank you for the reminder.  I don't

16    remember that.  Was the whole document in or just a portion?  Because if

17    we're getting to bigger pieces of the document, maybe we just get the

18    whole document in.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't remember myself.  Anyway, any other Defence

20    team wishes to tender any document?  No.  So that closes the chapter on

21    this witness.

22            Ms. Frease -- Ms. Gilleece.

23            MR. McCLOSKEY:  She is ready to go, although the Defence estimate

24    of four hours was a little off, but that happened.  So she's ready to go

25    and we're ready to go.

Page 6707

 1                          [The witness entered court]

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good evening, Ms. Gilleece.

 3            THE WITNESS:  Good evening, sir.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  And welcome to this Tribunal, if that's the right

 5    way to put it.  You are about to start giving evidence.  You know the

 6    procedure.

 7            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Please proceed with the solemn declaration and then

 9    you can start testifying.

10            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

11    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                          WITNESS:  EILEEN GILLEECE

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  I suppose you are aware that whatever

14    protective measures you enjoyed in the past have been lifted as per

15    specific request by the Prosecution.

16            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I am aware of that.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  I just want to make sure that you are content, you

18    are happy with that arrangement.

19            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, that's fine.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Vanderpuye will be putting some questions to you

21    and we will see what happens afterwards.

22            Mr. Vanderpuye.

23            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good evening,

24    Your Honours, counsel.

25                          Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

Page 6708

 1       Q.   I will put some questions to you.  I would just ask that you speak

 2    a little slowly and allow a small pause between question and answer so

 3    that we can all keep up with you.

 4            Let me start by asking you if you could just tell the Court

 5    briefly about your present employment?

 6       A.   I'm currently employed by the New Jersey state police, I am a

 7    detective sergeant with the regional intelligence centre out of west

 8    Trenton, New Jersey.

 9       Q.   And how long have you been employed by the state police in New

10    Jersey?

11       A.   For 23 years.

12       Q.   And prior to -- well, not prior to that, but did you work for the

13    office the Prosecutor at some point?

14       A.   Yes, from 19 -- October of 1999 until April of 2003 I took an

15    approved leave of absence from the state police and came to work at the

16    ICTY, specifically the OTP.

17       Q.   And prior to your employment at the ICTY, had you been employed by

18    the state police in New Jersey?

19       A.   Yes, I was employed with the New Jersey state police since 1984.

20       Q.   During the course of your employment, before you came to the ICTY,

21    could you tell the Court just briefly what you -- what kind of work you

22    did, and what kind of training you received?

23       A.   Yes, I -- I was trained as a New Jersey state trooper, you attend

24    an academy for six months.  Everyone starts on the road, on the highway.

25    I did that for four years, then I became a detective.  I was a detective

Page 6709

 1    for about 11 years prior to coming to the ICTY.  I investigated crimes of

 2    missing persons, paedophiles, homicide, official corruption, serious and

 3    serial crime, and organised crime.

 4       Q.   Turning to your term at the Office of the Prosecutor, can you tell

 5    the Court basically what your duties and responsibilities were, beginning

 6    with your title?

 7       A.   I was an investigator for team 9.  As an investigator I was

 8    charged with locating and identifying evidence, preserving it, identifying

 9    individuals with the case that I was investigating, which was a -- crimes

10    against the Serbs -- the crimes that were committed by the ABiH during the

11    period of 1992 to 1993 in Eastern Bosnia.

12       Q.   Now, was that specific to your assignment to team 9?

13       A.   Yes, sir, it was.

14       Q.   And did you, during the course of your work for team 9, did you

15    have occasion to take statement from witnesses or suspects?

16       A.   Yes, we took numerous statements from witnesses, and I met with

17    one suspect.

18       Q.   Now, during the course of those activities and responsibilities,

19    did you make use of language assistance, interpreters analysts, things of

20    that nature?

21       A.   Yes, we used the military analyst team quite often and always used

22    interpreters because I only speak English.

23       Q.   Okay.  Now, as a member of the investigative team with team 9, did

24    you exchange information with other teams if there were other teams in the

25    Office of the Prosecutor?

Page 6710

 1       A.   Yes, I did.

 2       Q.   Okay.  And did you do that regularly?

 3       A.   Fairly often if it involved issues of concern for both teams.

 4       Q.   Now, could I just direct your attention to the 2nd of October,

 5    2001, if I may?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Were you working on that day for the Office of the Prosecutor?

 8       A.   Yes, I was.

 9       Q.   Can you tell the Court where you were on that day?

10       A.   I was in Serbia.  I went to Valjevo Serbia to meet with

11 General Zivanovic. We met him at the -- I was a language assistant,(redacted)

12   (redacted) from team 9 and the analyst that was assigned to team 9, Robert

13    Cooper.  The three of us went to the post office in Valjevo to meet with

14    General Zivanovic.  He then took us to a restaurant in Peti Puk, which was

15    not too far from the post office.

16       Q.   Now, had you made a prior arrangement to meet with the general?

17       A.   Yes, I had spoken to him on the telephone in September and he had

18    said he would meet with us and he had some people to introduce us to that

19    would have information concerning the -- November 6, 1992 Kamenica

20    incident.  He did not want to give me the names of the individuals I would

21    be meeting for security purposes as we were on an unsecure phone.

22       Q.   Now, at the time that you met him, could you tell us approximately

23    when on the 2nd of October, 2001 that occurred?

24       A.   It was about 11.30 -- I mean 11.00 we met him at the post office

25    and then we moved on to the restaurant at 11.30.

Page 6711

 1       Q.   Okay.  Now, initially when you met the general, was he alone or

 2    was he with somebody else?

 3       A.   He was alone in his own car.

 4       Q.   Okay.  And you indicated that you proceeded to follow him?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And was that to a restaurant?

 7       A.   Yes, sir.

 8       Q.   Now, could you tell us what occurred when you arrived at the

 9    restaurant?

10       A.   When we got to the restaurant there were two other men already

11    seated at the table when we went in that General Zivanovic then introduced

12    us to.

13       Q.   And can you tell the Court who those two men were?

14       A.   It was Vinko Pandurevic and Djordje Sarapa.

15       Q.   Okay.  And did General Zivanovic explain to you who they were?

16       A.   General -- yes, he did.  He told us that Pandurevic,

17    Mr. Pandurevic had been a student of his at the military academy, and that

18    he also was in charge of the Zvornik area when it was recaptured in 1993

19    in the Kamenica area.  Mr. Sarapa said that he was a friend of

20    Mr. Pandurevic's, that he was a attorney by profession, but that day in

21    the restaurant he was merely there as a friend of Mr. Pandurevic.

22       Q.   Now, did there come a time when Mr. Pandurevic indicated to you

23    that he had something to say?

24       A.   Actually, General Zivanovic said that first he started the meeting

25    by saying that Mr. Pandurevic wanted to tell us of his actions in 1995.  I

Page 6712

 1    then explained to both Mr. Pandurevic and the general that team 9

 2    investigate -- we investigated the crimes committed by the ABiH from the

 3    1992 to 1993, however there was a team here at the Tribunal, team 6, led

 4    by Peter McCloskey, that investigates issues of that concern.

 5       Q.   And following that explanation, did you have further occasion to

 6    speak to Mr. Pandurevic?

 7       A.   Yes, Mr. Pandurevic explained that he had spoken to General

 8    Zivanovic and he was under the impression that Zivanovic trusted us and he

 9    wanted to know if it would be possible if we -- he passed us some

10    information to team 6 because he had heard that we would listen to him

11    without any prejudice, and he thought we would be objective and we could

12    pass the message to Mr. McCloskey, could we do that.

13       Q.   Okay.  Now, did you agree to do that?

14       A.   We agreed to that, I explained to Mr. Pandurevic that I was sort

15    of on the back foot in the sense that I knew for team 9 he was not -- he

16    was considered solely a witness.  I did not know his status with the rest

17    of the Tribunal, so I explained to him that as a witness he could speak

18    freely to me.  As a suspect to the Tribunal he had certain rights, that

19    would be that he -- he would be allowed to have an attorney present, that

20    he could -- anything he would say to me would be recorded and reported

21    back to the ICTY, that he could stop speaking to me at any time.  I went

22    through all the rights as the highest standard would be for a suspect.

23    And I gave those to him.  And he agreed to speak with me.  Mr. Sarapa

24    actually thanked me for explaining the situation, and said they were quite

25    aware of what his rights were, as did Mr. Pandurevic.

Page 6713

 1       Q.   Now, it has just come to my attention, Mr. President, if it would

 2    be possible to redact the name of the interpreter who was mentioned by the

 3    witness.  It is my understanding it was on page 87, line 20 of the

 4    transcript?

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

 6            MR. HAYNES:  I have nothing to say about that, but I have

 7    something else to say at this stage.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's deal with this first.  Page?

 9            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Page 87, line 20.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Line 20.  So we redact the last two words on that

11    line, being the name of the language assistant.

12            Yes, Mr. Haynes.

13            MR. HAYNES:  It's been drawn to my attention that the witness is

14    reading from something.  I would like know what it is and if I haven't

15    already got it, I would like a copy of it, please.  Perhaps if she is

16    reading from some sort of aide-memoire, we could establish the reason for

17    her doing that but she is reading it right now.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough.  Do you have a document in front of you

19    that you are reading from, Ms. Gilleece?

20            THE WITNESS:  I wasn't directly reading from it sir, but yes, I

21    have my notes to file on this incident.  The number is 01848867.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's have a look at it, please.

23            THE WITNESS:  I also have a memo.

24            MR. VANDERPUYE:  It is actually marked as --

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's -- no, no.  We would like to have a look at it

Page 6714

 1    first to see what it is.

 2            I can confirm that what we have here is a document which has an

 3    ERN number starting from 0184-8866 until and inclusive of 0184-8871, okay,

 4    being an investigative note to file.  And then there was also a memo from

 5    Ms. Gilleece to the acting chief of investigations dated 31st of October,

 6    2001, subject, team 9 meeting with VRS General Milenko Zivanovic, retired,

 7    Vinko Pandurevic and Djordje Sarapa, on 2nd October, 2001.

 8            MR. HAYNES:  And do I understand that those documents have been

 9    marked by the witness?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let me go through every page.  Yeah, there are

11    some minor -- there are some markings, yes, on practically every page.

12    Not much.  I suppose if -- on the other document, the memo, there is

13    nothing.

14            MR. HAYNES:  Well, this is all I require.  I require, please, the

15    date of the investigative note to file to be established, because it's an

16    undated document.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  2nd October, 2001.

18            MR. HAYNES:  That's the date of the meeting.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no, this is the date -- investigative note to

20    file to establish -- because it's an undated document.  The date, 2nd

21    October, 2001.

22            MR. HAYNES:  I'm not going to get involved in an unnecessary

23    argument with you, but I don't belief that was the date it was created and

24    I would like that date established, please.

25            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please not overlap.

Page 6715

 1            MR. HAYNES:  Oh, sorry.  Would the Prosecution be good enough to

 2    provide a copy of the marked document.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Here.

 4            Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5            MR. VANDERPUYE:  The marked document that Mr. Haynes is referring

 6    to is -- is P02408.  I believe Mr. Haynes has a copy.

 7            MR. HAYNES:  Yes, but I haven't got the markings, that's the

 8    point.  They may be completely insignificant, but I'm entitled to them and

 9    I would like them.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  If the witness has made use of that document while

11    she is testifying, I think there can be no question as to what the

12    procedure ought to be.  I think the witness, once asked, has to make this

13    document available.

14            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I fully agree with the Court.  I'm just not sure

15    it's established yet in the record what extent or what documents she was

16    actually relying on if at all I would like to put that to her, if I may.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  She has two statements, two documents in front of

18    her.  Perhaps she can tell us.

19            I take it that's the whole idea is to make reference to both as it

20    becomes necessary.  Is that correct, Ms. Gilleece?

21            THE WITNESS:  Actually, I would just need the investigative note

22    to file.  I can look at a plain one, if he doesn't want any markings.  The

23    memo was just in case anybody asked me that -- if I had any other document

24    about that event.  The one to Patrick Lopes-Terres I don't need to see;

25    the other one would be to refresh my memory, although I'm only 45, I am

Page 6716

 1    having a little trouble going back to 2001, sir.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  That sounds familiar, Ms. Gilleece.  At 61, it

 3    becomes a little bit more problematic.

 4            Yes, but I think we need to make it available to the parties,

 5    including yourselves, to see what annotations appear on the document.  So

 6    I think you need to make a photocopy of it, or show it to Mr. Sarapa or to

 7    whoever.

 8            MR. VANDERPUYE:  He can take a look at that; that would be fine.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed, because we are running short of time.

10    We've only got six minutes left.

11            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  I do apologise, but I don't know where we

12    left off at the point of the objection.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  [Microphone not activated] ... the problem becomes

14    more acute.  I have to check.  So ...

15            MR. HAYNES:  Your Honour, the simplest thing would just to get

16    this photocopied.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  We just wanted --

18            MR. HAYNES: [Indiscernible]

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  So you can make an assessment, yeah.  An assessment

20    as to whether you really require it or not.  You require it, we will get

21    photocopies of it.

22            MR. HAYNES:  Yes, I have seen one significant annotation that I'd

23    like to put to the witness, so if we could have that photocopied

24    overnight, I'm content.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  You had asked the witness -- so we will

Page 6717

 1    make a photocopy of it, please, for everyone.

 2            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  I think I had --

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  You had asked the witness whether she agreed to

 4    listen to Mr. Pandurevic.

 5            MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  And she explained that they agreed to do that.

 7    Explaining the rights that she explained to him and how Mr. Sarapa

 8    actually thanked her for explaining the situation and that both were aware

 9    of this.  And then we stopped basically there.

10            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Well --

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  You were asked -- now it has come to my attention,

12    Mr. President, if it would be possible to redact the name, et cetera.

13    That's where we left it.

14            MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  We have a couple minutes left, if

15    you'd like me to proceed.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, of course.

17            MR. VANDERPUYE:

18       Q.   All right.  You indicated, Ms. Gilleece that you had -- you

19    communicated certain rights to Mr. Pandurevic and also to Mr. Sarapa.  Is

20    that right?

21       A.   Yes, sir.

22       Q.   Okay.  And can you tell us at the point that you did that, had you

23    considered him a suspect?

24       A.   No.  Not that he was a suspect, it's just that Mr. -- General

25    Zivanovic had told us that his Chief of Staff was Dragan Obrenovic during

Page 6718

 1    1995.  Mr. Obrenovic was a guest here at The Hague at the time.  He also

 2    told us that he was in charge of the Zvornik area in 1995.  Mr. Pandurevic

 3    to my knowledge was not on the wanted poster at the time he had very

 4    distinctive red hair and although I didn't memorise the wanted poster, he

 5    was not on it to my knowledge.  I didn't recognise the name.  I checked

 6    with the military analyst, Mr. Cooper was he aware of the status of Mr.

 7    Pandurevic.  He said he wasn't sure of it.  But just on the side of safety

 8    and for everyone's rights it would be better to -- it was better, I

 9    thought, to take the higher standard than the lower standard.  This way he

10    would be giving me anything -- any information he would be giving me would

11    be of his own free will and I clearly wanted him to know that anything he

12    said to me I was obligated to tell the Tribunal.

13       Q.   During the course of your -- well, during the course of your

14    conversation with Mr. Pandurevic, did you have occasion to reiterate these

15    rights to him?

16       A.   We were there from mid- -- I mean afternoon, 11.30 and we left at

17    darkness so I guess we left at around 7.00.  We ate, we spoke a lot about

18    different things, and I probably gave him his warnings at least six to

19    eight times during the course of the meal.

20       Q.   Now, with respect to the warnings that you gave him, did you

21    obtain an acknowledgement or some understanding from him as to what they

22    were and whether or not he was willing to proceed despite them?

23       A.   Yes, he said he was fine with that, as long as I would pass the

24    information on to Mr. McCloskey.

25       Q.   And did you have in particular a conversation with Mr. Sarapa with

Page 6719

 1    regard to the acknowledgement of these rights?

 2       A.   Yes.  Mr. Sarapa was very polite and very nice gentleman and said

 3    that he -- he was very polite and said -- he thanked me for giving him the

 4    warnings again each time I did and said that they were quite aware of

 5    what -- what his rights were.

 6       Q.   Okay.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  For the record, Mr. Haynes, shall we state that

 8    Mr. Sarapa is not present?

 9            MR. HAYNES:  Yes, please.  For the record it should be said.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think so.

11            MR. HAYNES:  And that's quite purposeful.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's why I'm raising it.

13            Shall we stop here?

14            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think that's a perfect point to stop.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Ms. Gilleece will continue tomorrow

16    again in the afternoon but at 2.15.  And we will see whether we can finish

17    her testimony tomorrow.  Thank you.

18                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

19                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of

20                          February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.