Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8431

1 Thursday, 8 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, everybody. Madam Registrar,

6 could you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. All the accused are here. Defence

10 teams are all here with the exception of Ms. Condon who is sick.

11 Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Vanderpuye. So good morning once

12 more.

13 There are a few matters that we'd like to address. Then after

14 that we will continue with the exhibits process that we left -- we

15 interrupted yesterday. And then after the first break, we'll hand down

16 our decision on some of the issues that were raised yesterday, in

17 particular, in relation to these exhibits, but also other matters.

18 So you would be aware that yesterday the Prosecution filed a

19 motion for protective measures for Witness number 86. You would be aware

20 also that this witness is due to testify immediately after the next two.

21 It's our decision to raise this matter now to see whether there is any

22 response on the part of the Defence teams, whether there is any objection

23 to the granting of these protective measures so that if there are none we

24 can decide the same. Yes, I see that there are none.

25 So the Trial Chamber is seized with the Prosecution motion for

Page 8432

1 protective measures for Witness 86, filed on the 7th of March 2007. It

2 makes reference to the details contained therein, and the request of the

3 Prosecution to have in place protective measures of pseudonym and facial

4 distortion. There being no objection and since the Trial Chamber is

5 convinced of the -- considers this request justified, motion is granted.

6 Then there is a confidential Prosecution motion for leave to

7 convert one 92 bis intercept operator witness to 92 ter witness, which was

8 filed on the 5th of March. This relates to Witness number 75, who is the

9 next one, I understand, to give evidence. There are two issues that I

10 would like to raise. The first one obviously is whether there is any

11 objection from the Defence teams to the conversion of this witness to a 92

12 ter witness. And the second thing is more or less related first to the

13 Prosecution, but we'll still need to know what the position of the Defence

14 team is.

15 You have not really asked for the continuation of the protective

16 measures assigned to this witness in Blagojevic, or for new -- or for new

17 protective measures to be put in place. I mean this has been verified

18 because we do verify with each and every witness, especially those who

19 have already testified in other proceedings. So let's start with the

20 first one.

21 Is there any objection on the part of any of the Defence teams to

22 the conversion of this witness to a 92 ter? There are none. So that part

23 of the motion -- that motion is granted. And I don't need to go into the

24 details of the motion. It's a motion that was filed on the 5th of March.

25 Do I take it also that you are requesting for the protective

Page 8433

1 measures granted in Blagojevic to remain in place, or are you seeking

2 additional protective measures for this witness?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, good morning. Yes, we would

4 request the -- the Blagojevic protections remain in place.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Are there any objections

6 on the part of any of the Defence teams? We hear none. So the same

7 protective measures will remain in place. Thank you.

8 There is also a Prosecution motion which was filed three days ago

9 on the 5th of March, for leave to supplement the 65 ter list of exhibits

10 for two exhibits from Witness 154's prior testimony. This motion concerns

11 Witness number 154, who will be not the next one, the one after, and who

12 could actually start testifying today.

13 Is there any objection on any of the Defence teams to have these

14 two exhibits included in the 65 ter list? We hear none. So that motion

15 is also granted. And again, I don't need to refer to the substance or to

16 the relevant parts of the motion, it's granted in toto.

17 Finally you will recall that in the course of last week I had, on

18 behalf of the Trial Chamber, invited you to further your consultations,

19 particularly Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Haynes, who had stood up to deal with

20 this matter in relation to the confidential Prosecution submission or

21 motion to convert 12 viva voce witnesses to 92 ter witnesses. I don't

22 think I need to repeat what the substance of the debate was at the time.

23 I had the undertaking of both sides that you will take your time to

24 discuss this further and possibly come back with a solution to offer to

25 the Trial Chamber, failing which we will proceed to decide the matter.

Page 8434

1 Not today, obviously, because we are not prepared to give our decision

2 today.

3 So, Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. On that issue, Mr. Haynes

5 invited us for three witnesses to do viva voce. We agreed with him on

6 one, and denied -- turned down his invitation on the other two. Given a

7 moment, I can give you the witness number that we -- we agreed on, but of

8 course it was all per -- you know, subject to your final ruling, but I --

9 we can -- I'm reminded by my colleague, it's 108 was the one that we...

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You agreed upon.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: We agreed to go viva voce with.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: 108, that is the witness number?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You had agreed also here in open court about

15 Peccerelli, in other words, I had Mr. Haynes speaking, I assume, on behalf

16 of everyone that there was no objection as far as Peccerelli was

17 concerned. Yes, Mr. Haynes.

18 MR. HAYNES: The only two witnesses that we are left unagreed

19 upon, if that's even a word, are, I think, 117 and 132. And to cut the

20 matter short now, there is likely to be an issue you're going to have to

21 decide there because, as I said to you when I introduced the discussion,

22 there is a point of principle about this. And I can set that out briefly

23 in writing during the course of today if you would like me to or we can

24 argue it orally at some stage.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I would prefer to have -- I mean arguing it

Page 8435

1 orally will take more of our court time, so if it's not much work for you,

2 we would appreciate to have it in writing.

3 MR. HAYNES: I will undertake to get something to you by the end

4 of the week.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you so much. If, however, any of these

6 witnesses are due to testify Monday -- all right. Because in that case at

7 least we would argue -- try to -- try to get some kind of feedback on that

8 particular witness. But I see from the Prosecution side that that's not

9 the case. So we may safely proceed. And I thank you so much, first, for

10 your efforts, all of you, to try to reach this agreement. The Trial

11 Chamber is always appreciative of this. And we will await your -- your

12 filing, to which we will give you one day, Mr. McCloskey, then to respond.

13 So that by Monday morning -- by Monday we would have -- we would be in a

14 position to start discussing amongst ourselves.

15 The last thing is, Mr. Zivanovic. Mr. Zivanovic, good morning.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning. Good morning, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You may be seated, please.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You have informally approached the Chamber,

21 intimating that your client would like to be exempted from attending this

22 Friday's sitting for reasons that you have very aptly described. We have

23 considered that. You don't need to formalise it. However, we would like

24 to have a written waiver signed by your client according to the procedure

25 that is normal and to which you would be familiar. So otherwise,

Page 8436

1 Mr. Popovic can stay away on Friday, provided we have this undertaking and

2 waiver. All right.

3 So I think we can safely start, and then we'll come back to you on

4 the various issues that were raised yesterday by -- by some of you.

5 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one matter I wanted to raise that I hope will

7 save us a little time. You were -- you are aware of the next witness and

8 his testimony in the Blagojevic case. He basically speaks of two

9 exhibits. One a notebook of intercept -- of tactical intercepts that was

10 done by him in his little unit where he was near Nezuk, and one stack of

11 papers of intercepts that was done by his unit down closer towards

12 Srebrenica.

13 In reviewing those materials, I have made the decision that the

14 papers, the pile of papers, is not something I will be asking the Court to

15 take any evidence or acts or conduct of any accused on. There are some

16 vague references that could be considered acts or conduct, but given

17 the -- just it's unnecessary for the Prosecution to take that evidence in

18 that way. I will not be offering any acts or conduct evidence from that

19 material, and as you know, my burden for the acts of conduct evidence is

20 greater, pursuant to your -- your ruling. So I have told that to Defence

21 counsel, and those papers are here and are part of the former record, and

22 available for the Court, but I am not asking any acts or conduct evidence

23 from any of that material.

24 As for the notebook for the other material, that principally goes

25 to the acts or conduct of -- of General Pandurevic, which Mr. Haynes and I

Page 8437

1 will be debating perhaps some issues, but you will see how that folds out.

2 But that's just the background of -- I am not aware of any other acts or

3 conduct in that material from other accused, though there are lots of

4 code-names that I am not at this time aware of who they are. That may pop

5 up later on, but I don't think so. So at this point, just for your

6 knowledge, the notebook will go to acts or conducts of General Pandurevic.

7 Also, and I'm sure you are aware of this, there will be witnesses

8 in the future that will be speaking directly to these intercepts, people

9 that were actually involved in these intercepts as a participant or

10 overheard them. That's true of both these tacticals, as well as the

11 others. But having said that, I don't think we need to wait until the end

12 for you to make any ruling on these intercepts, but just as you -- as you

13 see these tacticals, I -- there will be other evidence about them, because

14 they are, as I said before, a bit of a different animal, as you will see.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: As you know, we handed down an order yesterday in

16 relation to intercepts. We think it is of the utmost importance for the

17 Defence teams in particular to know what our position is in relation to

18 intercepts, because I can't -- we are -- we strongly feel that no Defence

19 team should be put in a position where they have to start their defence

20 without knowing exactly where they stand in relation to intercepts.

21 So irrespective of when you plan to bring forward these witnesses,

22 we will be proceeding with the exercise that we intimated we will be --

23 one thing, Mr. McCloskey. I mean -- and can I refer you to line 11 of

24 page 6, please? I will not read it again. There is the mention of a

25 place there where this next witness was supposed to be working. Do you

Page 8438

1 wish to redact that or not?

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I -- I used the term "near" because it's actually

3 another place. And I thought that that would be okay in this situation.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine, okay.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's a difficult issue. I -- I have edited

6 another -- I edited my summary a bit because yesterday we had people in

7 the audience, and I will read again that edited version to try to make it

8 the safest possible. In fact, I've referred to the -- can we go into

9 private session for just one second.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means. Let's go into private session,

11 please.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8439

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr, Bourgon.

7 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

8 Honours. Good morning, counsel.

9 Mr. President, you just made reference to the order that issued by

10 the Trial Chamber concerning the intercept evidence. And there is one

11 issue I'd like to bring. I don't know if this is the proper time or not,

12 but in the order issued by the Trial Chamber at paragraph 1, the

13 Prosecution is being asked to file a written submission highlighting the

14 prima facie relevance of each tendered intercepted communication. We

15 feel, and of course I speak for this team only at this time, not having

16 consulted with my colleagues yet, we feel that this is very important

17 indeed, that the Prosecution gives the prima facie relevance of each

18 intercept and that they go further than saying this intercept is relevant

19 to all counts in the indictment. This will greatly facilitate our

20 position in order to be able -- for us to answer and respond and then get

21 meaningful debate out of this intercept issue. Thank you, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

23 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we understand the order and look forward to

25 meeting it in detail.

Page 8440

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And then if it's not satisfactory to any

2 of the Defence teams, of course we will be prepared to hear any

3 submissions, to receive any submissions that you may have.

4 So let me go back one moment.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We were about to -- we had finished with your list,

7 of course with the caveat that we would be deciding on the remaining

8 issue, and then we were supposed to deal with the other request to tender

9 documents. I think we should start with you, Mr. Ostojic.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, Mr. Bourgon, I got the

13 impression yesterday that you had finished with the tendering process. Or

14 do you have -- do you have anything else.

15 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Mr. President. When the session closed

16 yesterday, I was absent, but my colleague raised the issue. The issue

17 that was being debated was whether the statement P2463 should be admitted

18 in evidence. And debate closed where we ran out of time and we did not

19 get a chance to fully argue the matter. And our position is that the

20 statement can go into evidence, but not the date report which accompanied

21 that statement.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic did deal with that in your absence.

23 MR. BOURGON: It is because in the transcript it's not -- the

24 matter wasn't completed and then we stopped the hearing yesterday.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need to hear more.

Page 8441

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If there is any new submission you would like to

3 make, yes, go ahead. But I think we've heard enough.

4 MR. BOURGON: Well, the -- based on yesterday's transcript, there

5 was the issue of the statement. And we oppose the fact that the date

6 report should not accompany that statement. But then I take it that my --

7 I'm not sure if my colleague was finished with his list and whether he

8 wanted to get into evidence the -- the report on the equipment, whether he

9 was going to submit a request for the report on the equipment, which is

10 another thing that we also want to oppose if my colleague wants to put

11 that order for the equipment in evidence.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think so. I thank you, Mr. Bourgon. But I

13 think Mr. Vanderpuye yesterday was quite clear that he was not including

14 this -- or that document in the list of documents he wished to tender, the

15 Prosecution wished to tender.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that matter is moot.

18 Mr. Ostojic.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: We're tendering no exhibits, Your Honour, with

20 respect to the last witness.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

22 Does any other of the Defence teams wish to tender exhibits?

23 Madam Fauveau.

24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, document 5D198, that

25 must remain under seal because it reveals the name of the witness and for

Page 8442

1 the time being is not yet translated into English, we only have the B/C/S

2 version for the time being.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You also made use of 199. Do you wish to tender

4 that as well?

5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection from the Prosecution or from any of

7 the other Defence teams? Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

9 Honours. No, we don't have any objection.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So this is being admitted, marked for

11 identification purposes, pending the finalisation of the translation

12 process. All right.

13 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

14 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm sorry to come back on

15 the issue of this date book, which comes from another witness, but there

16 is, as was made clear before the Trial Chamber yesterday, the full date

17 book was shown to us at the break, just before we completed our

18 cross-examinations.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's correct.

20 MR. BOURGON: We would like this date book to be disclosed to us

21 and we believe that it includes some information that would be very

22 important for our case. Moreover, there is a possibility that we will ask

23 for further cross-examination of the witness who -- to whom this book

24 belongs, which was a witness that testified here and that never made

25 reference to this book at that time. Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 8443

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll come to that when we are seized with the

2 matter, and in the meantime, Mr. McCloskey, do you wish to indicate

3 whether you are disclosing that book.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: That book was provided to them yesterday to get a

5 good look at it. Ms. Nikolic asked me this morning if we could get a copy

6 of it and we're seeing if we can do that before it flies away. But I'm

7 sure we'll be able to work that out.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

9 So any further preliminary matters that you would like to discuss

10 or to debate? None. So I think we can bring in Witness number 75.

11 [The witness entered court].

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Before the witness starts, don't put his earphones

13 on for the time being. Ask him to sit down. Please make yourself

14 comfortable.

15 There is one further issue that I forgot to mention when I was

16 dealing with this witness. Even though you referred to the subject matter

17 thereof. You referred during your intervention to the tactical intercept

18 notebooks. These documents were, if you go back to our decision of the

19 12th September of last year, we had marked these for identification

20 purposes. This was our decision on Rule 92 bis statements.

21 We have tried to match these documents with your 65 ter list of

22 exhibits, which you submitted earlier on that year, on the 28th of April.

23 And we may be wrong, we stand to be corrected, I mean we make mistakes

24 every day, like you -- like the rest of us. But if they are not, and

25 please check, you will need to address this in order to conform with the

Page 8444

1 procedure that we have established. Unless there is no objection on the

2 part of the Defence teams, and we can then proceed.

3 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I have a number. I think it's correct, but

5 we'll check on it to make sure that that's not a problem.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I'm sorry to be so finicky, but I think

7 we need to be.

8 So, good morning to you, sir.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. Before you start

11 giving evidence, Madam Usher is going to hand you a piece of paper, that

12 contains the text of a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the

13 truth which you are required to make before you start your testimony. So

14 please stand up, read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn

15 undertaking with us.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable.

21 We have put in place for you two protective measures, namely the

22 use of a pseudonym. You will be referred to as -- by a number rather than

23 by your name. And also we are distorting the image of your face, so no

24 one can recognise you. Is that to your satisfaction?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 8445

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. McCloskey will go first, and he will then be

2 followed by the members of the Defence teams.

3 Mr. McCloskey. Thank you.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

6 Q. Good morning, Witness. If you could first take a look at this

7 paper which we parked P02464 and tell us, is that you?

8 A. Good morning. Yes.

9 Q. And have you recently had a chance to hear your testimony from a

10 previous trial?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was it correct, to the best of your knowledge and memory?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And if you were asked those same questions again, would

15 your answers basically be the same?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to read a brief summary of that testimony,

18 pursuant to the system I've told you about.

19 The witness was born in Bosnia and Herzegovina and grew up in a

20 town near Sapna in Eastern Bosnia. He went to secondary school and

21 graduated in the field of electronics. In 1989 he did his mandatory

22 service with the JNA and was trained as a radio telegraph operator.

23 When the war broke out in 1992 he joined the Territorial Defence

24 and worked in communications jobs, repairing and maintaining

25 communications equipment. As the war continued he worked as a member of

Page 8446

1 the BiH and was involved in monitoring and intercepting radio

2 communications.

3 Could we go into private session for the next couple of

4 paragraphs?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. McCloskey.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8447

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: The enemy frequencies were scanned, and when a

7 frequency was found containing communication, an operator from his unit

8 would transcribe in summary fashion the intercepted conversation on a

9 piece of paper, as it was occurring. The conversation was not written

10 down verbatim. The operator would write quickly to keep up with the

11 conversation and use abbreviations to assist in the process. The

12 conversations were not tape-recorded in July 1995.

13 The operator would give the paper with the conversation on it to

14 the witness and he would pass the information on up the chain via military

15 telephone. At the end of the day, most of the conversations from the

16 pieces of paper were copied into a notebook by one of the operators and

17 the paper was normally destroyed.

18 The witness kept one notebook containing intercepted conversations

19 from the period around the fall of Srebrenica enclave, which was used in

20 the site one location. And a stack of notes of conversations from the

21 site two location. The piece of paper from site two were pieces of paper

22 that the operators transcribed the conversations on.

23 The witness was asked to comment on an intercept from the notebook

24 from site one on page 7 of the English translation from 14 July, ERN

25 number 0084-8952 from the original B/C/S text.

Page 8448

1 The witness said he remembered this conversation because it was

2 inconceivable to him that a road was being built at this time during the

3 war. The witness identified the handwriting of one of his -- of one of

4 the operators and named that operator.

5 After the war, the witness attempted to provide the notebook and

6 the notes mentioned in his testimony to the BiH for archiving purposes,

7 but the documents were not accepted by the BiH soldiers doing the archival

8 work. Based on a request several years ago from the OTP, the witness

9 searched for other tactical intercept records, but was unable to find any

10 remaining records.

11 That concludes the summary.

12 Q. Now, can I ask you, when you were working in July, did you have a

13 military rank?

14 A. I didn't.

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's redact these last few words. Go

18 into private session straight away.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8449











11 Page 8449 redacted. Private session















Page 8450

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]


15 Q. I would just now like to ask you a few questions about what I

16 referred to in the summary as this notebook that was taken from site one.

17 And I'd like to give you the -- the original notebook, if I could, and

18 there's some little stickies on here that will help -- help you get

19 referenced. And if we, on the ELMO -- sorry, not -- if we could put that

20 on the ELMO, and I've showed you how to try to work the ELMO and the

21 microphone, and if we could get the -- well, actually, I think we'll just

22 work from the B/C/S at this point, is probably simpler.

23 So if you could -- if we could -- first of all, let me ask you. I

24 think it was back in 1999, did the Prosecution contact you and ask you to

25 review that material to see if there was anything relevant to Srebrenica

Page 8451

1 that you could think of or something like that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you go through your notebook and mark in red pen three

4 items in response to that request?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when the Prosecution saw that you had marked the notebook in

7 red pen, what did they say to you?

8 A. Well, I told them that I marked the conversations, and then I was

9 told that I shouldn't have done it, but it was too late. It was already

10 done. There was no going back.

11 Q. Okay. So can we -- we've got those three markings. If we could

12 just put that on the ELMO, and we've marked the first one with number 1.

13 And if we could get that on the ELMO and you could just tell us briefly,

14 read out what you have marked. And the ELMO is very sick, you can't see

15 the colour there unfortunately, Mr. President. But could you point with

16 your finger where the red mark is that you had made on the book, just on

17 the book itself so everyone can see?

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. And this particular -- this is P02231. Okay. And so why did you

20 mark that?

21 A. Well, this frequency has to do with the work of police forces of

22 the Zvornik MUP. Based on the conversation one could tell that they were

23 recruiting people for the field. They were ordered to stand under full

24 military equipment. That was on the 7th of July.

25 Q. Okay. Let's --

Page 8452

1 A. Just preceding the operations in Srebrenica.

2 Q. Okay. And let's go to number 2, which is also marked. And

3 perhaps I should read the ERN number of that page. The ERN, as we can see

4 is 0084-8947.

5 And we see -- we actually can see the red mark this time. Can you

6 tell us -- we see a date, I believe, of 12 July. What is this, and why

7 did you mark it?

8 A. Once again, this is the frequency of the Zvornik MUP. They are

9 mentioning full military equipment once again.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the last bit of the

11 sentence.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, the interpreters didn't hear the last bit of

13 your reply. If you could kindly repeat it. Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the frequency of the Zvornik

15 MUP, once again. Once again they are speaking of recruitment and full

16 military equipment and then a name is mentioned, and the name is

17 underlined in red.


19 Q. Okay. Let's go to the third one that you have marked. And this

20 is 0084-8952. We see some red, I hope you can see those red dots and a

21 little red arrow. Can you again -- now, can you -- and if I could, could

22 we have on the e-court, it should be P02232, page 7. So we can see the

23 English of this.

24 And while we're waiting for that, can you read the part that you

25 had marked for -- for the Prosecutor?

Page 8453

1 A. "Maric, Miladinovic, Mitrovic, member of the engineering corps,

2 they should stand by Rijeska with excavators in order to pave the road."

3 Q. Now, I know that's a bit unfair to do that to the interpreters but

4 if I could read the official English translation just for the record.

5 Unfortunately it hadn't come up yet. Page 7 of that document, please. I

6 don't know what page that is.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: If you can proceed by reading while this is -- yeah,

8 okay it is there now. Thank you.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: As we can see in the English it says, "For Maric,

10 Miladinovic, Mitrovic (engineers) to come at Nedo's inn with the excavator

11 in order to widen the road."

12 Q. Now, why did you note that?

13 A. It seemed suspicious to me that somebody could work on creating a

14 road, paving a road simultaneously with all these combat operations going

15 on. So I remember -- I remember this conversation, even today. We

16 immediately assumed that this could not have been anything to do with the

17 road, that it must involve something else. And later on it turned out

18 that we were right.

19 Q. Okay. Can you tell us, just by reference, I think we can go back

20 to what has been marked with a yellow number 1 in your book, it's actually

21 page 4 of the English, and note the date that this information was taken

22 on. It's number 1 on the yellow sheet, and it's page 4 on the English.

23 MR. HAYNES: You can lead on the date. It's okay.


25 Q. It's 14 July, is -- is the date that's noted in the book. Is that

Page 8454

1 right?

2 A. [No interpretation]

3 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to number 3 in the yellow page of the

4 original book, which is page 8 in the e-court. And this is just basically

5 the beginning date that shows 15 July. And if we could, after showing

6 which date we're talking about, now go to -- to page 13 on the e-court,

7 and page 4 on the original. And I want to read a section and ask you a

8 bit about it. And it says -- I'm reading the part where it

9 starts, "Vuk-Ikar-Pavle- I talked to Semso (Vuk) and stopped the

10 activities. They care for the head of column (soldiers). I suggested him

11 to release all those from the central prison in Tuzla and we would release

12 these. Pavle-we don't have a mandate to negotiate."

13 The next page on the English, page 14. "What did Semso say about

14 the captured policemen. He says that they are alive. If something

15 happened to them, all others will be finished. It will be 100 for one.

16 And after that he fired three more rounds (Rogatica). Pavle told him not

17 to negotiate with him. We'll kill them in the woods. And he can fire at

18 Serbia, Belgrade, Zvornik as much as he wants. Tell him that all of them

19 should surrender in Orahovac."

20 Now, we know from your testimony that you've described these as

21 being written in a summary fashion. But when I wrote like this my grammar

22 teacher said this was full of indefinite references. Can you put this

23 into context for us, who is talking about who? Because if it's summary

24 form, it's -- unless you were doing it, it's difficult to tell. For

25 example, "I talked to Semso and stopped the activities." Is that a direct

Page 8455

1 quote, is that -- can you -- can you just fill us in on that a bit?

2 A. This is a member of the army of Republika Srpska who spoke with

3 Semso, and Semso wanted to negotiate.

4 Q. How could you tell that Semso wanted to negotiate from this text?

5 A. Well, he says, "I spoke to Semso," the VRS member talked to Semso

6 and says that Semso would like to talk to him and that he asked the Turks'

7 frequency. I actually remember that myself. That the frequency was

8 requested from people who were at the head of the column that was breaking

9 through out of Srebrenica.

10 Q. From this bit, can -- is the operator hearing anything from Semso,

11 or just from the Serb person?

12 A. Only the Serb side.

13 Q. Okay. So it's fair to say that this -- this information is being

14 said by -- can you tell how many participants are saying this? Is this

15 one person that is saying what I just read or is it more than one Serb

16 soldier or officer?

17 A. There were two, because you always need to have two speakers. In

18 this case it was Vuk Lovac and in the continuation of the conversation you

19 can see that they continue to speak about this conversation with Semso,

20 because it is mentioned that a member of the army of Republika Srpska

21 asked for people to be released from the central prison and then this one

22 later told him, also a member of the army of Republika Srpska, that he was

23 not authorised to negotiate and that Semso can say whatever he wants. But

24 that they are going to kill those people in the woods. There was no

25 question of negotiations or anything like that.

Page 8456

1 Q. Okay. Now, let's -- is there any way, from your records, to sort

2 out, from this book, to sort out any sort of time-frame for this

3 communication, when that occurred on the 15th?

4 A. 1330 hours.

5 Q. And why do you say that?

6 A. The time is written down, Vuk Lovac, 1330 hours and then there is

7 the next part of the conversation at 1300 hours 45.

8 Q. Oh, I see. That is in the section before the one I started to

9 read. Okay. So that up at 1330, is that where the conversation actually

10 started?

11 A. Yes, that's when it started.

12 Q. Okay. All right. Let's go from the afternoon of the 15th now to

13 the page that begins with 16 July. It's number 15 in e-court, it's number

14 5 on your little yellow sheet. He can probably flip it himself, but...

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.

16 MR. HAYNES: I don't mean to be difficult, but the only person

17 who's got the yellow stickies is the witness and it would be helpful if we

18 could have the B/C/S e-court references so that the accused could make

19 proper comparison.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I fully agree and I thank you for pointing that out,

21 Mr. Haynes.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's -- that's 18, and when we get to it, I

23 can read the --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, until just -- are you working on it,

25 Madam Registrar?

Page 8457

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: B/C/S e-court is 18, but he's flipping to it in

2 the original document.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.

4 THE REGISTRAR: The original document in B/C/S is on the ELMO, so

5 everyone following B/C/S can follow on the ELMO, and then the English

6 version is in e-court, in the English channel. Maybe for reference the

7 Prosecution can give the page number in B/C/S.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that satisfactory, Mr. Haynes?

9 MR. HAYNES: Certainly.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So we can proceed.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's the theory, if I can see on the ELMO, we

12 can get the ERN I can just repeat it for the record. If it's 0084-8958.

13 But that's just to orient us to the 16, if we could now turn the pages.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Each time refer specifically to the page, Mr.

15 McCloskey, please.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. We -- on the English version is 16, which

17 should be on e-court. And the -- it's number 6 of the yellow tab on the

18 original. Which is on the B/C/S e-court, 18. Okay.

19 Q. And what I wanted to refer you to is an entry that says 1330

20 hours, "Their evacuation is going to start. If they shoot you shoot as

21 well. Users covered the area from our/unintelligible/and homed in

22 artillery. They were not audible. They work with small power."

23 Can you tell us again, "Their evacuation is going to start." Who

24 is that -- who is speaking now, or which side is speaking and who is

25 the "they" referred to, based on your knowledge of how this worked?

Page 8458

1 A. The specific conversation says, "Their evacuation will begin."

2 They are thinking of the evacuation of the Muslims. And this is spoken by

3 a member of the army of Republika Srpska. If they fire, if the Muslims

4 fire, then you should fire too. He is giving him some sort of approval,

5 or permission, that if anybody from the Muslim side shoots, that they

6 should then fire in return.

7 And at the end of the conversation it says that the participants

8 worked with small strength. This is not understood. It means that we

9 were not able to pick up the rest of the conversation because it was

10 fading.

11 Q. Okay. Now, just the -- my last little section is marked on tab 7

12 in the original, and we can see that's just the next ERN, I believe. Yes,

13 last digits 8962. It's page 19 in the English e-court, and I want to take

14 you down to the bottom of the English version, it -- and in the B/C/S

15 it -- the part I wanted to ask you about says, "Palma in person for Lovac

16 1 in person. We are negotiating with the opposing side that they get out

17 in the direction of Nezuk. Down the stream and up to the left towards

18 Zuta/zemlja/yellow soil/."

19 Again can you tell us which side -- which side is talking. Just

20 orient us a bit on this? When it says "we," who is that?

21 A. Members of the army of Republika Srpska. They are saying that

22 they had agreed with our side, the Muslim side. That a number of the

23 Muslims could get out in the direction of Nezuk, and they are giving the

24 route of movement to the left towards Zuta/zemlja.

25 Q. Okay. And can you, from looking at your notebook, give us any

Page 8459

1 idea of roughly the time or precisely the time, whatever, that this

2 conversation took place?

3 A. The exact time is not given here, but it was after 12.25.

4 Q. Okay. Then let's -- let me continue, which is the next page in

5 the English, page 20 may be the same page on the B/C/S, and it starts

6 off -- B/C/S e-court 20, page 23, "Palma-Lovac 1-we agreed that their

7 access is going to be towards the stream so that we liberate Resnik and

8 Govedarica."

9 Again, the "we" is who or what side?

10 A. These are members of the army of Republika Srpska who are

11 speaking.

12 Q. Okay. So that is the same for the next line. "We are going to

13 open it there and once it passes we are returning to our old positions.

14 It is about the withdrawal of our dead and wounded and the Chetniks

15 received an order to shoot if someone attempted to go into the depth of

16 the territory."

17 Now, again, let's try to be clear on this. "We are going to open

18 it there and once it passes we are returning to our old positions." Who

19 is the "we" in that sentence?

20 A. Members of the army of Republika Srpska.

21 Q. Okay. And now we have this statement, "It is about the withdrawal

22 of our dead and wounded." Do you know who the "our dead and wounded" are?

23 A. They were members of the army of the republic of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina.

25 Q. Okay. And then it says, "And the Chetniks received an order to

Page 8460

1 shoot." So I don't imagine the Serb forces are referring to themselves as

2 Chetniks, are they?

3 A. This was the operator's note, or remark.

4 Q. Okay. And I think you probably testified about this, but just one

5 last question. You have testified that you worked in -- with the

6 operators. How is it that you are able to tell who is speaking and help

7 us understand that? How do you know that?

8 A. I spent a lot of time myself in such centres during the war,

9 before the fall of Srebrenica, and before all these activities around

10 Srebrenica. So a large number of these conversations I am familiar with.

11 As for the remarks or notes by the operators, they used to do that often.

12 It didn't have the form of a report. Often next to the authentic text the

13 conversation would be summarised and then in the context of that you would

14 say "they" meaning the army of Republika Srpska and when you say "we"

15 or "us" they meant the army of the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It

16 was like that.

17 Q. One last question in private session, if I could.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go into private session, please.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8461

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. I saw that you testified in another case before this Tribunal, and

10 of course you remember that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. And I saw that in that case you said that these notebooks -- you

13 handed the notebooks from what you can remember, you gave them up to

14 Ms. Stefanie, you didn't mention her last name. So what would I like to

15 ask you is if you remember exactly whom -- to whom you handed over the

16 notebooks?

17 A. I just managed to remember Stefanie, that name. She was in that

18 team. So I handed over the notebooks to her, to Stefanie. She was the

19 first one of the team that I met.

20 Q. Thank you. When you handed over the notebooks, did you make a

21 document, did you sign anything, did you sign anything, did she sign

22 anything or someone else, did they sign anything?

23 A. No, I didn't sign anything. I have no documents relating to that

24 and I cannot remember if there was anything like that on the part of the

25 Prosecutor. If it was some document with some kind of protocol number, I

Page 8462

1 probably would have asked to have this document to cover myself, but since

2 it was just a notebook, I didn't have any special measures about that.

3 Q. Well, do you remember approximately when you handed over the

4 notebooks?

5 A. I think it was sometime in 1999.

6 Q. 1999. You told us, amongst other things, that the documents that

7 were at location one and location two, as we're calling it here, that you

8 tried to hand over the documents to the archivists of your unit, of your

9 command, and that they refused to accept that. Can you tell us what their

10 reasons were, why they refused to accept that?

11 A. The only and the main reason was that the notebook was not in the

12 form of a report, it didn't have a protocol number. Because based on a

13 protocol number, you could make some kind of document to enter the

14 notebook into the archive. So it had nothing to do with the content of

15 the notebook, it was just the fact that it wasn't registered properly,

16 paginated and so on. They didn't even want to look at what was inside the

17 notebook, at the material contained in the notebook.

18 Q. And because of that, did you address any of your superiors, did

19 you point out the problem that the archive personnel did not want to

20 accept into the archives that material that was of exceptional

21 importance? How was that resolved?

22 A. It was very difficult to resolve that because, in the command

23 system, there was an order and it's very clear in that order what is

24 archived and what is not. I tried to go around that, but it didn't work.

25 So I returned the notebook to my safe, and I kept it.

Page 8463

1 Q. Thank you. According to the information that we have here, you

2 had your first contact with the Prosecution on the 17th of May, 1999, and

3 that was when you talked about what your work was. In the document that

4 is called an information report here, it is stated that the witness is

5 sure that many conversations were registered and stored in the archives.

6 Can you please -- that many of the conversations were written down and are

7 archived. Do you recall that in your contact with a certain Alastair

8 Graham?

9 A. Yes, that is what I said, and it was true. But not -- does not

10 refer to the notebooks in location one, it refers to notebooks from

11 location two. Those conversations were properly archived. Unfortunately,

12 I didn't manage to find them later.

13 Q. Before you testified the last time before the Tribunal, you had

14 some notes that you had in preparation for your testimony, and we received

15 those notes. They are your conversations with investigators and members

16 of the OTP. And at that time, in the conversation, you mentioned the

17 documentation from those two locations, but you said that the documents

18 were not received into the archives, either from location one or from

19 location two. Do you remember that?

20 A. It's not the entire archive, it's probably the part that you have

21 in the other notebooks from the other centre, which we indicated to be

22 location two. So you do have some material from there that they also did

23 not wish to accept, together with this other notebook.

24 Q. Thank you. And can you tell me, what was accepted into the

25 archive and wasn't found later, what exactly was that? Were they papers

Page 8464

1 or was it something else?

2 A. They were reports. Reports that were forwarded to the division

3 command in the encrypted form, and they were also at the command from

4 Kladanj.

5 Q. When you say Kladanj, it's neither one of those centres?

6 A. Yes, it is, but it was sent through the encryption section via

7 Paket radio.

8 Q. In 2002 you had another interview with the OTP investigators, with

9 a certain Jean Gagnon, and on that occasion you said that you were going

10 to get in touch with one of your colleagues who also worked on that with

11 you. I'm not going to mention his name, but I assume that you know who

12 I'm referring to. And that you were going to ask him if he still had the

13 intercepts from that period. My question is, since you had these

14 notebooks that you talked about and in view of the fact that some of them

15 were presented to the archives through the reports, you expected that your

16 colleague would also have some intercepts from that period. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. I didn't accept -- I didn't expect that I wasn't completely

19 convinced, but I sort of had it in the back of my mind that perhaps he had

20 the original notes, because from location one, the transcripts or the

21 conversations were copied later, or parts of it. So I assume that perhaps

22 he did have some of the original papers, because he was there for a lot of

23 the time; although, most of those papers were destroyed and actually he

24 confirmed that most of the papers were destroyed.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 8465

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

2 this witness. Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's time to have the break a few minutes

4 ahead. 25 minutes. Is that sufficient because of the redactions? 25

5 minutes. Thank you.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: As we stated earlier on at the beginning of the

9 sitting we are going, before we continue with the evidence of the

10 witness -- should do it after. Okay. Let's leave it until later. Let's

11 continue with the evidence, and then we'll hand down the decision later on

12 after we are finished with his testimony.

13 Mr. Zivanovic has finished his cross-examination. Who is going

14 next? Mr. Ostojic.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Sir, I'm going to have a couple questions for you, and very few

20 maybe with 20 minutes, I think we should be able to finish, hopefully.

21 You mentioned this morning on page 31 in your answer to my learned

22 colleague of the Defence on lines 21 and 23 that you turned over your book

23 to a woman with the Prosecution named Stefanie. And what I'd like to

24 first confirm that, correct?

25 A. I know that I talked to Stefanie, but I can't remember exactly

Page 8466

1 whether she was the one, it's been quite a long time since then, so I

2 can't remember. I think that it was Stefanie. She was the first one that

3 I talked to.

4 Q. To help refresh your recollection, I'm going to give you her last

5 name and you could tell me if that helps refresh your recollection. I

6 have in our notes and records, a woman who worked for the Office of the

7 Prosecutor at or around that time by the name of Stefanie Frease. Does

8 that help refresh your recollection?

9 A. I don't know. I don't know the last name. There was a Stefanie

10 from the Prosecution, yes. There was.

11 Q. Now, in your book that you brought with us that we have seen the

12 original, there is a lot of code-names listed, correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At any time did you try to decipher the code-names that were

15 identified in your book?

16 A. Well, at that time while this was being done I wasn't really

17 interested in it much, the actual name of the participants. I was more

18 interested in learning the facts and how the facts could be used to

19 promote the interests of the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In radio

20 communication it is quite difficult to learn the actual name of

21 participants. One can make some conclusions based on commands,

22 headquarters, and so on, maybe some other factors are important, but you

23 can learn more about the rank and function than learn the name.

24 Q. Okay. Let me just briefly show you Exhibit 1084, which was

25 previously introduced in the record. And it's going to appear hopefully

Page 8467

1 on the screen in front of you. And these are VRS code-names that were

2 prepared, I believe, and I say it respectfully, prepared by the Office of

3 the Prosecution and Ms. Frease or her group at that time. When you get it

4 up, I'll ask you a question, Mr. Witness. Okay. It's there.

5 Do you see it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you obtain or see from the office of the Prosecution any

8 similar sheet for code-names or index of names of intercepts with respect

9 to your book?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And just so the record is clear so it's easier for you this is a

12 code-name list for the VRS, the next document is 1085, I would just ask

13 that you briefly look at that. Because I mentioned that that was the

14 index of names on intercepts. So if you could just take a look at that so

15 I can show that I was fair to you, even though you answered the question.

16 It's coming up now, sir. And this is the index of names on intercepts

17 that I was referring to. Did you ever, with Stefanie or anyone with -- at

18 the office of the Prosecution, create an index of names for some of these

19 codes that you recorded or others in your unit recorded in the book that

20 we've discussed during your direct examination?

21 A. I didn't. Although I did mention some of the coded names for

22 which I knew the identity fully, and I think that in 1999 this was written

23 down during one of the meetings. But those were the names of the people

24 who had used these code-names throughout the war, and we were 100 per cent

25 certain of their identity. If necessary, I can identify some of those

Page 8468

1 names. I didn't really deal with this specifically, this was just

2 briefly.

3 Q. I'm interested to know too, so thank you for the invitation, and I

4 will accept you on it. Who was Premijer?

5 A. I think that Premijer was the communications centre of the 1st

6 Zvornik Brigade. What they did was retransmit, that is to say if the

7 connection was bad they would retransmit the conversation.

8 Q. Okay. And one name that I'm interested in, who was Strsljen?

9 A. To tell you the truth, I can't remember. I followed Premijer for

10 a long period of time, almost throughout the entire war, so that's why I

11 could remember that name. But as for Strsljen, I can't remember.

12 Q. Okay. In your book I noticed a couple words that I needed your

13 assistance with. And I'll read them out in English, and hopefully -- I

14 couldn't necessarily find them in the B/C/S language, but in the 13th and

15 14th of July, 1995, there is an entry there about war materiel. Do you

16 remember what war materiel would have referenced?


18 MR. McCLOSKEY: The best way is to show him the reference, I

19 think, as opposed to his memory.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Agreed. I'm sure Mr. Ostojic can do that.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: It's on page -- on the English version, page 7, I

22 think the same page that the Prosecutor was using with the witness, which

23 would be on P2232, page 7. And according to at least the English version,

24 this is conversations that were taken on the 14th of July, 1995, which is

25 the same page my learned friend referred to. And it's in the middle of

Page 8469

1 the page.

2 Q. It starts with, "On a frequency 293 at 2045." Do you see that?

3 A. I have the English version and I can't read it.

4 Q. With the Court's permission, if the usher could hand him the

5 original version and he can find it. It should be tabbed already since --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: What we could see from what was on the ELMO is that

7 I think that page is tabbed, yeah.


9 Q. Sir, so if you could look at the yellow tab when you were on your

10 direct, I think it's the second yellow tab. But you could help, since you

11 helped tab these, I think, maybe you could find the entry for the 14th of

12 July and then it's three pages after that. Did you find it?

13 A. Could you please tell me again which intercept?

14 Q. It's "On a frequency 293 at 2045." Did you find it, sir?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you be kind enough to let us place it on the ELMO and just

17 point to that intercept so that we can maybe follow along, which is at

18 frequency 293 at 2045. Okay. Now, can you read that sentence to us,

19 please, because I have questions regarding three different -- four

20 different points in that sentence, if you don't mind. Can you read it

21 into the record for us?

22 A. "Igman 1 - Lovac 1 and Lovac. Surround the forces with war

23 equipment, reinforcement is arriving from the Main Staff. Mome's men are

24 coming now." Most likely it says "Mome's."

25 Q. Thank you. My question is, do you know what was being referenced

Page 8470

1 when they said "war equipment"?

2 A. I suppose that he knows.

3 Q. I thought so, but I didn't want to be presumptuous. What are they

4 talking about? What type of war equipment are they talking about, sir?

5 A. We could only suppose at the time what kind of war equipment, most

6 likely tanks, Pragas, personnel carriers, and other things like that.

7 Q. Other things like ammunition, correct?

8 A. Naturally. Because without ammunition equipment means nothing.

9 Q. Now, this word "reinforcement" is coming, what is that? What is

10 that? Can you describe that, tell me what you thought that was?

11 A. It most likely means, I can't now go into the essence of what

12 happened before and what happened after, but I can suppose that they

13 believed that they did not have enough men, and they asked for

14 reinforcement and this message had been sent and then they told them that

15 new reinforcement was on its way from the Main Staff, and that there would

16 be some additional people from Mome. I believe that it says "Mome" here.

17 I don't know who these people were.

18 Q. Were you able to capture or record, in the book that you have, any

19 other reference to Main Staff regarding war equipment or reinforcement,

20 other than this one entry?

21 A. Well, the organisation of radio communication that we monitored

22 was such that the words Main Staff and people's names were used

23 infrequently. The case was quite different on radio relay communication.

24 What was mentioned here was quite a rarity, such words as Main Staff,

25 names of commanders, and so on, that was mentioned very seldom. Perhaps

Page 8471

1 the people who worked on radio communication were not really interested in

2 mentioning these names, because it was organised by somebody else, and

3 they merely executed what they were told to do.

4 Q. Okay. And then just one other word I wanted you to help clarify

5 with me. The word "axis," do you know what that is, a-x-i-s?

6 A. In the same intercept.

7 Q. No, no, it was referenced in an intercept approximately 10 pages

8 further on, and it's on page 20 of the English version and it should

9 appear, sir. And I think with the Court's permission, you could take the

10 book, approximately the 16th of July, 1995. If you go to the 17th of

11 July, it's about a half a page above that. If the Court permits, I think

12 he will.

13 So again, if I can just repeat it to help you a little bit. If

14 you find the entry of the 17th of July, it would be immediately preceding

15 that, so before the 17th of July entry. You should have it tabbed because

16 you discussed it a little bit, something before that, you talked about the

17 yellow soil with my learned friend, about the negotiation with the

18 opposite side. Did you find it?

19 A. Yes, I did find it.

20 Q. And just so we're clear, can we place it on the ELMO, please. And

21 this is a conversation between Palma and Lovac 1, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you just read the first sentence up to the town Govedarica?

24 A. "We are negotiating with the opposite side to have them come out

25 near Nezuk and then the stream to the left towards Zuta/zemlja. Palma

Page 8472

1 Lovac 1, we have agreed that their access is going to be towards the

2 stream. So that we liberate at Resnik and Govedarica."

3 Q. Do you know what they're referring to when they say "axis" there,

4 sir?

5 A. Yes, I do. I think that they were referring to the axis of

6 movement of the part of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina which was

7 leaving the encirclement in Srebrenica because this is the period after

8 some agreement had been reached and that was the direction that they were

9 supposed to take on their way to Nezuk.

10 Q. That was approximately the 16th of July, at least according to

11 your book, correct, 1995?

12 A. This is when it was noted down, yes.

13 Q. Did you ever record or identify any of the participants in the

14 conversation by their first name Ljubo?

15 A. I can't remember.

16 Q. Well, let's take a look at the entry of the 14th of July, 1995,

17 sir. And again, the Court, I'm sure, will permit for you to take the

18 logbook and --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.


21 Q. It should be tabbed because I think it was used. So if I can

22 direct your attention to the 14th of July, 1995. Intercept --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait a moment. Make sure that he's found it because

24 he's still flipping through the pages.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: I will show him where it is, approximately, with

Page 8473

1 that as a guide.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have the corresponding English page number,

3 please?

4 MR. OSTOJIC: In English, it's page 4.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 4.


7 Q. Have you found the entry of the 14th of July, 1995, sir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If you can place it on the ELMO. Just point it to us so we can

10 orientate ourselves. Great. Now, in our English version, it all comes in

11 one page. They don't break it off. So it's the page immediately

12 preceding that, I would like to discuss with you, which is the paragraph

13 above or, in your case, the paragraph that is on the left-hand side of the

14 book where the date, the 14th of July, 1995, appears. Do you see that?

15 And it's really the second line from the bottom where you talk about

16 Premijer and then you have this Strsljen and then in parentheses you see

17 "Ljubo," close parentheses.

18 A. Most likely since it's written in the parentheses I would say that

19 it was mentioned in a previous conversation, so the operator knowing that

20 this involved some Ljubo, put this information in parentheses.

21 Q. In your meetings with the various investigators and those

22 including Ms. Stefanie, did you ever discuss with them who this possibly

23 could be?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that this is not Ljubisa Beara but it's some

Page 8474

1 other Ljubo that hopefully, during the course of this trial, will present

2 that evidence. What do you say to that?

3 A. I am not in the position to know whether this is the Ljubo or some

4 other Ljubo, but I'm sure that some Ljubo was mentioned, since we have

5 this information in parentheses. Nobody would write down something unless

6 there was a reason for that. There was no need for us to do that. I

7 wrote down in one of the intercepts that the conversation was not really

8 audible, so the operator noted that down. He didn't try to invent

9 anything, he just wrote down that it was barely audible. So I know that

10 this involved some Ljubo, but I don't know which one.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you. My next topic, and really it's my last topic,

12 in the period of mid-July 1995, you referenced many ambushes. Do you

13 recall that in giving your testimony earlier today? I'm sure you do.

14 A. Your question is not quite clear. What do you mean by ambushes?

15 Whose ambushes?

16 Q. Well, for my first question, it's irrelevant whose ambushes, but

17 in the documents that you have provided us, the word "ambush" appears

18 several times.

19 A. Well, if it concerns this document, the one that we provided, then

20 these ambushes were the ones organised by the members of the Serb forces

21 in order to capture as many people as possible. People moving from

22 Srebrenica to the free territory, moving through woods, streams and so on.

23 So these are the ambushes.

24 In addition to what I mentioned here, I also remember quite a

25 number of conversations which mentioned things like summary executions, no

Page 8475

1 need to keep them alive and things like that. Some of that information

2 may even be found in the notebooks.

3 Q. Okay. I'll look for that, thank you. With respect to the

4 ambushes just, sir, how many ambushes were there during the course of that

5 three or five-day period? Again, mid-July, 1995.

6 A. Well, this entire encirclement is something that I perceive as

7 ambushes because it's not like the members of the Serb army were only in

8 one position, no. They were in various posts and forward positions, so it

9 could only be perceived as ambushes. And as for how many times it was

10 mentioned, you can see it in the conversations. It was noted down by the

11 operators.

12 Q. Well, I don't want to be unfair to you. As you sit here, sir,

13 having reviewed your logbook in preparation for your testimony, given that

14 you met with two investigators, testified in another case, as you sit

15 here, do you know what your best recollection is as to how many ambushes

16 were conducted in mid-July 1995?

17 A. I can't remember, as I have said to you. Because there was so

18 much going on. And in my preparations for the testimony, I didn't really

19 focus on ambushes. There were such cases, there were lots of them. In

20 addition to what was noted down, I also remember that I heard great many

21 such conversations and I was tasked with conveying this to the others. So

22 in addition to the operator, I also had to convey it and I know that there

23 were great many such cases, but I can't tell you how many were noted down

24 in this material.

25 Q. And just one final question, if can ask you this, with the Court's

Page 8476

1 permission. I know you state that there were a lot of them. You said

2 there were a lot of them, specifically on line 25 of page 45. Does that

3 mean to you more or less than seven?

4 A. Definitely more.

5 Q. Thank you, sir, very much.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

8 I have Ms. Nikolic or Mr. Bourgon for Drago Nikolic. Go ahead.

9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

11 Q. Good morning, Witness.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. I have a few questions for you based on where you were in July of

14 1995. And my first question is I would ask that you confirm -- maybe it's

15 better if we move in closed session?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8477











11 Pages 8477-8481 redacted. Private session















Page 8482

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.


6 Q. Now, on the basis of your book, Witness, and the conversations

7 that are reported in your notebook, it is my understanding that there was

8 more than one network in operation at the time where these conversations

9 were intercepted from.

10 A. Yes, there were many networks, and on different frequency ranges,

11 they were not all on the same device, and all on the same frequency range.

12 They were some measures from 30 to 69 megahertz and radio connections from

13 130 to 160 megahertz. At that point in time, perhaps we had other

14 equipment, but actually, we were focused only on those two: 30, 69, 95,

15 and 140 to 170 megahertz. There were several networks too.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and

17 maybe some of my colleague here, just to define what is meant in general

18 terms by a network, would you agree with me that a network can be defined

19 as a number of stations using the same frequency to communicate together?

20 Would that be very general and basic definition of what a network is?

21 A. Yes, three or more stations. Two can be considered to be a radio

22 route, three or more can be considered to be a network, if they were in a

23 radio network and if they were using the same frequency.

24 Q. And would you agree with me, Witness, that it is possible for any

25 one station to be heard on more than one network?

Page 8483

1 A. Yes. Some, usually the communications persons, would get some

2 kind of plan for the connections and then they would know if somebody else

3 was working also who was not in their network. The device allows them to

4 move into a different frequency and to hear somebody who was not part of

5 their network. This is of course possible if technical conditions allow

6 that. We're talking about frequency ranges. Within one frequency range

7 you can hear it, sometimes you cannot go into a different range. Or

8 better said, the equipment has to be of the same frequency range in order

9 for them to be able to hear each other.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, this last question that I posed was more

11 addressed or not so much in the technical sense, but more in the fact that

12 it is something that can happen for one station to have access, and to

13 participate in conversations on more than one network.

14 A. Yes, if the technical conditions permit. Yes.

15 Q. And would I be right in saying that usually any given network

16 would change frequency from time to time and that you would -- you could

17 maybe access that same network but you would have to find it whenever that

18 network would change the frequency used? Is that correct?

19 A. It's like this: Each radio network has several frequencies, and

20 they are changed from time to time. They can be changed in time

21 periodically or at the request of an operator. So in a more quiet period

22 when the traffic is not so busy, perhaps it could be a problem to find the

23 network again. But when the traffic is pretty high then, really, it's not

24 that difficult. We would perhaps need a minute or two to find this new

25 frequency. When the traffic was heavy. When it was light there would

Page 8484

1 have to be some kind of broadcast to be able to locate it. You could not

2 locate it without a broadcast. During this key period it was not

3 difficult to locate a new network or a new frequency. A lot of it was

4 known, whether there was some kind of code indicating a shift to a new

5 frequency, we knew all of those codes, and we would monitor that, we would

6 write them down, and we would almost simultaneously move to the new

7 frequency as the other participants in the network.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, going back, or moving from this

9 question, if in your notebook you have frequency -- I just use one

10 example, I could use any, and I see frequency 150.185. And that's a

11 frequency that was used for a particular station at any given time. My

12 question to you is, if I see the same frequency again in your notebook, it

13 doesn't mean that the same station is using it, and actually that the same

14 network is using it the second time around. Is that correct?

15 A. Well, from what I managed to understand of the question, it's like

16 this: If we register one frequency and two, three or four participants

17 are operating on that frequency and then we if we were to hear again in an

18 hour on the same frequency some other participants, it can mean that they

19 are from the same network or from the same frequency, or it can mean that

20 somebody new has joined that frequency. But believe me, when you are

21 really into the work, when you work with that, you learn a lot, you

22 remember a lot of the modulations, the timbre of the voice of the person

23 that is speaking. And then it's is not a problem for you to recognise

24 whether it's this speaker or that speaker. Perhaps for you as a lawyer it

25 is difficult for you to understand this, but at that time for us it was

Page 8485

1 really not a problem at all to be able to tell who is who.

2 Q. Thank you, Witness. My last question, did you at any point in

3 time establish or make a sketch of all of the networks that were in

4 operations and all the stations for each of the networks or basically did

5 you ever draw a communications plan in use within the VRS army?

6 A. Before the activities, I did this kind of work throughout the

7 whole war, so before I did have plans with descriptions of specific units,

8 this participant is this, this participant is like that and so on. As for

9 this period, first of all, it would be very difficult to describe that

10 during the period of combat actions around Srebrenica. It would be

11 difficult to make these differences because all the participants went from

12 one frequency to another, so in my view perhaps it -- there were no

13 clearly defined radio networks. The participants had the possibility for

14 the Premijer to tap into a different network, so it was very difficult to

15 define specifically who was part of which network and who used what

16 frequency.

17 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. I have no further questions.

18 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. I have on my list the

20 Borovcanin team. Mr. Stojanovic.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have into

22 questions for this witness.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Lazarevic.

24 I have the Miletic team. Madam Fauveau.

25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, General Miletic's

Page 8486

1 Defence has no questions for this witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Petrusic.

3 The Gvero Defence team have now announced that they have no

4 questions for this witness.

5 MR. JOSSE: That remains the position.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And finally we have the Pandurevic team. Mr.

7 Haynes, go ahead.

8 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

10 Q. Witness, it's right, isn't it, that you achieved some excellence

11 in the field of electronic warfare?

12 A. Well, I assume that I did, if I may evaluate myself.

13 Q. I mean you did -- you did receive decoration for your service in

14 that field?

15 A. I did, and I am proud of that.

16 Q. And you were familiar, very familiar with the sort of devices

17 that, if I may put it that way, that the opposition was using in

18 communicating with one another?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And there were basically two systems, weren't there, there was the

21 RUP radio and the Motorola?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Each of those had a range of about 20 kilometres. That's right,

24 isn't it?

25 A. Perhaps on paper, but in practice, especially in Bosnia, which is

Page 8487

1 of a hilly terrain, and the lay of the land, it could have been perhaps

2 two kilometres. If it's open terrain then it could have been greater, but

3 through translators or repeaters, it can be augmented, but actually in

4 practice, the range is not as high as it is stated in theory.

5 Q. You've anticipated my next question. The other weakness of this

6 communication system is that they can't communicate with one another. If

7 you have a Motorola, you can only speak to somebody else with a Motorola

8 and if you have an RUP, you can only speak to somebody else who has an

9 RUP.

10 A. In technical terms, yes. That is why we use the communications

11 centres which had the RUPs and the Motorolas, so some sort of

12 communication devices that could communicate with hand-held Motorolas.

13 They were a little different, so if there was need to communicate, they

14 were used to convey certain information from that network to the other

15 network.

16 Q. Thank you. So we have two situations in which two parties who

17 might want to speak to one another have to speak through an intermediary

18 or a series of intermediaries either because they are on either side of a

19 hill or because they're using different radio systems.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And without going to specific examples, that is why we see in the

22 book that you are showing us very often more than two correspondents to

23 any different conversation. You can see three, four, up to seven

24 correspondents in some of these conversations or summaries.

25 A. That's how it is usually. Perhaps in a description of a

Page 8488

1 conversation, you can have participants that took part, but often an

2 information is repeated five, six or 10 times, until it reaches the end

3 user for that information or perhaps an order is repeated several times

4 for three or four units. You are not going to find that in the notebooks,

5 because the operator who was transcribing that perhaps felt that there was

6 no need for him to copy five times over the same material.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, one thing I want to ask you about, which I don't

8 think you've dealt with, is as it were, the creation of the summary in the

9 book. At site one, which is the only site I'm interested in, there were a

10 number of operators, weren't there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And as you've already told us, conversations, even these

13 repetitive conversations where a message is relayed down the line, would

14 often take place on different frequencies or even different systems?

15 A. Probably, yes.

16 Q. Now, as I understand the position, the operators wrote notes on

17 pieces of paper.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Those pieces of paper have been destroyed but the contents of

20 those pieces of paper were summarised into the notebook you've referred

21 to.

22 A. The contents were entered but I cannot state that everything was

23 entered. We only sometimes heard parts of conversations but what was

24 entered, that was it. We would hear the conversations and we would pass

25 it on to the forward command post, and perhaps not everything was written

Page 8489

1 down. What I am saying is that not everything that we heard was entered,

2 but what is entered is that. It's part of that.

3 Q. What I'm really seeing if you can help with is whether the entries

4 in the notebook might have been or were indeed the product of several

5 operators' notes?

6 A. The material, yes, but the transcription itself, no. Perhaps it

7 was just entered by one or two operators. The gathering of the material

8 was the output of all of the operators.

9 Q. Thank you very much. So sitting here today, when you look at that

10 book, in particular, some of the conversations you have -- some of the

11 entries you've been referred to, what, in fact, you are looking at is a

12 summary of a number of operators' notes of a number of different

13 conversations.

14 A. It's most likely a summary. These are not verbatim conversations

15 of everything that was said. It's just a kind of skeleton or a

16 cross-section.

17 Q. That's very helpful. I'm going to put this to you in terms. It's

18 impossible, isn't it, now, looking at that book, to attribute any

19 particular words to any particular speaker?

20 A. I cannot attribute anything to anyone. I am not going to mention

21 the names. But according to the call signs, the secret names, that person

22 is said to have stated something. At the beginning I already said that I

23 cannot claim that such-and-such a person is personally such-and-such a

24 person. It's not something that I can claim. But that such a participant

25 stated such-and-such a thing, that is certain. There is very little room

Page 8490

1 for mistakes during the entering of the data, because there were several

2 operators there mostly, and they consulted one another and that kind of

3 thing.

4 Very often several operators would listen to the same

5 conversation, perhaps one of them can mishear something, but the others

6 would then correct it.

7 Q. That's not really the point I'm putting to you. Many of the

8 passages you have been referred to and have looked at are summary, and

9 they are the summary of perhaps three or four people who have spoken

10 during the course of the creation of that summary. What I am suggesting

11 to you is, looking at that summary, you can't tell us now who contributed

12 what to that summary.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, that's a misstatement of the evidence.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I didn't read his evidence as necessarily

15 meaning what you have suggested now. If you look at page 60, lines 4, I

16 cannot attribute anything to anyone. I'm not going to mention the names.

17 But according to the call signs, you can -- beginning of it, it said I

18 cannot claim that such-and-such a person is person such-and-such." Or

19 page 59, on line 15. The material, yes, but the transcript itself, no.

20 Perhaps it was just entered by one or two operators gathering of the

21 material was the output of all the operators.

22 MR. HAYNES: That's very well, Mr. President. I was trying to

23 deal with the matters generally. I will have to deal with it by specific

24 example.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We will not stop you.

Page 8491

1 MR. HAYNES: No, of course not.

2 Q. I'm going to move on from there, if I may. Now, in the

3 organisation of any military operation, one of the things that the

4 commander will do is to create what's called a plan of correspondence;

5 isn't it?

6 A. Well, one of the commander's assistants would do that.

7 Q. And what is meant by that is that the call signs and radio

8 frequencies and reserve radio frequencies to be used will be set out for

9 the purposes of the operation?

10 A. Yes. That's what it is. Code-names are designated for various

11 units, frequencies that are going to be used, codes that are going to be

12 used for certain places, certain locations and certain activities.

13 Q. The sort of radio equipment that was in use, that you were

14 monitoring here, has many, many different frequencies, doesn't it?

15 Perhaps I should say channels, set channels.

16 A. Both terms are correct. And there can be many of them. We

17 already mentioned RUP 12, 30, 69 and 95. They have about 800 channels.

18 As for Motorola frequencies, there can be a tremendous number of channels

19 and frequencies that can be used there. I should also mention that the

20 entire frequency range from 140 to 170 megahertz is something that the

21 receiver can scan within a minute. The entire range and whenever

22 something comes up in that -- in that range, the scanner will pick it up.

23 Q. In setting a plan of correspondence you would limit the number of

24 reserve frequencies that were going to be used during the course of the

25 operation, wouldn't you?

Page 8492

1 A. You mean myself or somebody who is drafting the communications

2 plan.

3 Q. I'm asking you the question borne of your experience as an

4 electronic warfare office?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That is still vague.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.

7 MR. HAYNES: Okay.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you be more specific.

9 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

10 Q. It would be usual, wouldn't it, during the course of drafting a

11 plan of correspondence for a military operation, to have, say, eight or

12 nine pre-set channels that would be used and which those who were

13 communicating with one another would move to, to avoid being detected?

14 A. Probably. Each plan can have a number of frequencies, not

15 necessarily just 10. It can have 15. Which presupposes that all of the

16 participants know when to switch to another channel. But let me repeat it

17 now: Given the amount of communications during that period of time, it

18 was no problem for us at all to detect it. It took us a minute or two and

19 we would find the same network again.

20 Q. I'm not doubting that for a minute. In fact, I'm trying to agree

21 with you in that suggestion. I think by the -- by the 14th of July you

22 had located many, many of the channels that were being used by the forces

23 that you were monitoring, hadn't you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you had also discovered the call sign that they used to

Page 8493

1 indicate that there was a need to shift channels and that call was "Sava"

2 wasn't it?

3 A. Yes. Then they would say "Sava" and then a certain number and

4 then the participants would then know that they needed to switch to that

5 particular frequency. This was done in order to prevent us from knowing

6 that they were switching to another frequency so that we wouldn't go

7 searching it.

8 Q. And one of the other things you'd identified was the commander,

9 the chief of the operations, and you had done by the 14th of July, hadn't

10 you?

11 A. I can't remember that. I don't know what you're referring to.

12 Q. Well, I'm going to try and refresh your memory. I'd like to put

13 the book from site one, that's P02231 in B/C/S, and 2232 in English, on to

14 e-court. And I'd like the witness, please, to see page 6 in -- I'd like

15 us to see page 6 in the English and the witness to see page 11 in the

16 B/C/S. This is at the very top of the page in English. It's about

17 halfway down in the B/C/S, and what you are looking for, Witness, is the

18 phrase "Lovac 1, it's the chief. They were looking for him to come to the

19 base." I'm told the screen needs to go up a bit for the witness.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps he could be directed to the original, as

21 we can see, we didn't get a very good image.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that can be done. And it should be done.

23 MR. HAYNES: It's the page with the ERN number at the top 8951.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: 8951 or 8941?

25 MR. HAYNES: 8951.

Page 8494

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the original here. Could you

3 please repeat your question?


5 Q. Yes, of course. About halfway down you should see an entry which

6 in the English translation reads, "Lovac 1- it's the chief. They were

7 looking for him to come to the base."

8 A. Well, that could be an assumption of one of the operators. Based

9 on something, based on a previous intercept he identified him as commander

10 or somebody addressed him as chief, and based on that he made this

11 notation.

12 Q. Thank you very much. My point is that that is an identification

13 of Lovac 1 as being the chief of operations of the forces you were

14 monitoring, isn't it?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That does not reflect the evidence.

16 It doesn't -- there is no where does it say "operations".

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.

18 MR. HAYNES: I'm not going to -- I'm not going to argue this in

19 front of the witness, but that's a disingenuous objection. Mr. McCloskey

20 knows very well the subsequent evidence we will find out very well who

21 this is.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would ask the witness to leave the room so we

23 can respond to this attack.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Either leave the room or -- do you understand

25 English? I'm asking you, do you understand English?

Page 8495

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Are you happy if he removes his

3 headphones, Mr. Haynes and Mr. McCloskey? Or do you want him out of the

4 courtroom?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can very easily clear this up.

6 Mr. Haynes and I have been chatting about this. I think he used an

7 unfortunate word but I'm fine if he removes his headphones.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So Witness, could you kindly remove your

9 headphones, please. And Mr. Haynes, do you want him out or --

10 MR. HAYNES: No, no. There really is very little between us here.

11 It was probably a loose question, but I don't think there will be any

12 dispute who Lovac 1 was in this case.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: He is not a chief of operation though, this is a

14 important military distinction. We can maybe do the stipulation right

15 now, who he is and what the evidence will come through, if you like.

16 MR. HAYNES: I'm happy with that, yes.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go into private session.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Of course. Let's go into private session.

19 Let's make it more complicated.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8496

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Mr. Haynes and Mr. McCloskey, we've had --

23 we've heard from both of you what we needed to hear and what is important

24 to hear. Given that, we are going to leave it entirely in your hands to

25 rephrase the question, whichever way you think reflects your position. I

Page 8497

1 mean, we have understood what the position according to the Prosecution

2 is.

3 The witness can put back his earphones. Headphones, sorry.

4 Headphones. And -- Mr. Haynes.


6 Q. Sorry about that, Witness. It was probably all my fault, but

7 we'll get back to some questions now.

8 You would agree now, and -- that passage I showed you was on the

9 14th of July, that by the 14th of July you had identified virtually all of

10 the frequencies in use by the forces you were monitoring and you had

11 identified somebody whom you believed to be the chief of those forces?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry to object, but the first part of that

13 question I think the witness had answered that it was impossible to

14 identify all the frequencies. So that's a misstatement. I don't think it

15 was purposeful, but again -- and it's a two-part question which makes it

16 harder.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: He can answer the question. He can answer the

18 question.

19 Yes, go ahead. Witness, can you answer Mr. Haynes's question,

20 please?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as I have said, and I was

22 about to say when the Prosecutor interrupted me, it was impossible to

23 identify and monitor everything. There are no technical possibilities to

24 do that, because they could always use other networks or frequency ranges

25 and we would normally do what we were ordered to do or what we could

Page 8498

1 technically do, that we were capable of. And as I said earlier, it's very

2 difficult to identify various code-names and call signals with full

3 accuracy. Perhaps this was noted down because one of the operators heard

4 it in one of the intercepts.

5 To tell you the truth, I listened to this, and I did not reach a

6 conclusion that Lovac 1 was a chief. And the term "chief" alone could

7 mean a number of things. Chief of Staff or chief of something else. So I

8 never reached that conclusion that you are mentioning now. Perhaps one of

9 the operators noted it down because, based on the context on what was

10 said, that's the conclusion that he drew. Or maybe this reflects some

11 personal fears that he had. Maybe he feared his own chief and concluded

12 that this person was in charge on the other side too.

13 Let me repeat that it is very difficult to accurately identify,

14 and I do not want to be held to what I said about the possible identities.

15 And in another situation in a different type of communication, perhaps in

16 radio relay communication, perhaps they mention names more often, so it's

17 easier to identify people there. I hope that this explanation was good

18 enough. If not, please let me know and I'll try to explain again.


20 Q. Well, I don't know the extent to which you have familiarised

21 yourself with the book from site one. But much of the monitoring of

22 communications from site one concentrate on Lovac 1 and Lovac, doesn't it?

23 A. Most likely they were one of the most powerful or frequent

24 participants. Because what is noted down here was definitely uttered.

25 There were some other intercepts, some other communications that were

Page 8499

1 established but not recorded or not recorded in this notebook. So the

2 notebook reflects only a small number of conversations.

3 Q. I mean, we are agreed on this, that in that book, Lovac appears 82

4 times, and Lovac 1, 62 times. It looks like your operators were

5 concentrating on monitoring his communications quite closely, doesn't it?

6 A. Well, I didn't count how many times they were mentioned. The job

7 itself, the frequency itself, the communications and the content of

8 communications was such that we focused on this. This was a long time

9 ago, and it's hard for me to say that my reasoning went along these lines,

10 I know this guy and I feel like listening on to him. But at the time they

11 were probably the participants that interested us and we zoomed in on

12 their network and followed them, monitored them. I'm sure that there were

13 many other conversations on other frequencies that were also of interest

14 to us, but we didn't monitor them because we were focusing on this

15 particular one.

16 Q. Thank you very much. As you've said, not only did you monitor

17 Lovac 1 very closely, you followed him every time that he moved frequency,

18 I suggest to you. Would you agree with that?

19 A. Well, this kind of imposes itself. I told you that already. He

20 switches the frequency, we go look for him, detect him, and monitor him

21 again. Most likely they were mentioned more than others because we were

22 interested in their conversations more than in another's. When scanning

23 the frequency range, one comes across various conversations, including

24 ones that were not relevant for that particular area, that are completely

25 irrelevant, and we would not record them or note them down and try to

Page 8500

1 detect their call signals, while neglecting what was of interest to us.

2 That was the reasoning why we did what we did, and now it seems as though

3 we focused only on Lovac 1 and Lovac 2, but that wasn't the case in

4 reality.

5 Q. And in that regard, some sort of indication that he was, and I

6 will use as neutral a phrase as possible, an important commander or an

7 important chief, would have made you double and redouble your efforts to

8 make sure you captured every one of his communications?

9 A. Perhaps we didn't have to double our efforts. We simply monitored

10 that network and that was it. We successfully found them again, whenever

11 they changed frequencies, and the operators made certain assumptions about

12 the importance of certain participants who were indeed important. It

13 would be stupid for me to say now that these participants were not

14 important for us when we monitored them closely.

15 Now, as for doubling our efforts in order to monitor them, most

16 likely we would have done it had there been other conversations in that

17 frequency range that were not important to us.

18 Q. I just want to ask your view of this: Given the close monitoring

19 of this particular radio user, would you think it conceivable that that

20 person could have dictated a long report over the radio without you

21 hearing it and making a note of it?

22 A. I don't know, to tell you the truth. Let me tell you something.

23 I can't remember, this was quite a long time ago. And I'm not in the same

24 line of work anymore. So I'm a bit rusty. I don't remember these things.

25 But let me tell you what's important: Perhaps something could have

Page 8501

1 escaped our attention because we were not experts who never missed

2 anything. Also, perhaps that we registered some reports, but they are not

3 included here. Because let me repeat again, there were many, many things

4 that I cannot find going through the notebook. They were conversations

5 that were recorded and their content was simply conveyed to the forward

6 command post without recording them. And that is the problem, because had

7 they been recorded, our job would have been easier, as would be yours.

8 Q. I would just like you to have a look, please, at what is page 8 in

9 the same exhibit in the English, page 13 in the B/C/S. And if you would

10 prefer to look at the document on ELMO, the number at the top of the page

11 on the physical exhibit is 8953.

12 A. I found it. What's your question?

13 Q. Sorry, I'm wrong about that. It's page 4 in the English, page 9

14 in the B/C/S, and the number at the top of the page on the physical

15 exhibit is 8948. Have you found it, Witness?

16 A. I have.

17 Q. I'm looking at an entry that should be at the bottom of the page

18 for you, which in the English reads, "L1 requested a vehicle to come and

19 pick him up because Lovac needed to talk to him urgently. After that they

20 sent a Peugeot car."

21 A. I don't see it on this page.

22 Q. It might be 8949.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It was the same page to which Mr. Ostojic had

24 referred you before where there is the entry for the 14th of July.

25 MR. HAYNES: The number at the top of the page is 8949, not 8948.

Page 8502

1 I apologise.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If I remember well, it should be on the left side of

3 your logbook. That's how Mr. Ostojic described it.

4 How long will you be on this particular page, Mr. Haynes, because

5 we need to have a break soon?

6 MR. HAYNES: I have got one or two questions about this page, then

7 I want to return to something I was asking the witness about before and

8 then I'm finished a topic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Should we have the break now or what do you suggest?

10 What do you prefer to --

11 MR. HAYNES: Could I just finish this topic?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

13 Did you find the relevant part?

14 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Haynes.


17 Q. Firstly, can you confirm that, in this book, the use of the letter

18 L and L1 is equivalent to the use of the words Lovac and Lovac 1?

19 A. I already mentioned that before and also in my previous testimony,

20 that a large number of abbreviations was used. Just so as not to lose

21 time, not to write out Lovac 1, Lovac 2 in full. In any other event these

22 abbreviations were used. With other words, if you wanted to say testing

23 the communications, then you would use these abbreviations just so that

24 you do in the waste time rewriting the same phrases over and over again.

25 Whenever, in the notebook, you find that there is an L or L1 participant,

Page 8503

1 the -- that signified Lovac 1 and Lovac 2.

2 Q. Thank you. And could you also confirm that the accuracy of that

3 particular entry, that Lovac 1 requested a vehicle to come and pick him up

4 because Lovac needed to talk to him urgently and after that they sent a

5 Peugeot car?

6 A. I believe that it is accurate. I mean, I cannot be 100 per cent

7 sure, but I believe that that is accurate. They sent a Peugeot. It means

8 that from the rest of the conversation somebody informed him that a

9 Peugeot was sent to pick him up. And so on.

10 Q. And would you take it from me that that was on the 13th of July?

11 I'm sure we can agree that.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, that was -- that was the sort of information that you were

14 recording about Lovac 1 on the 13th of July. On the 14th you discovered

15 or somebody discovered that he was the chief. I'll simply put this to

16 you: After that discovery, you would have noted down, wouldn't you, if he

17 had used his radio to dictate a combat report?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. This has been asked before. We're

19 going back over again.

20 MR. HAYNES: It's in a different context now.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is in relation to combat reports now. And I

22 think we can accept it.


24 Q. Do you remember the question or do you want me to repeat it,

25 Witness?

Page 8504

1 A. There's no need to repeat it; it's already been said. The chief

2 of Lovac 1, we've already said that I know what I said, and I think that's

3 clear. There's no need to repeat myself.

4 As for the combat reports, I am not informed about that. I don't

5 know exactly what you mean. If you're thinking of the frequency of the

6 conversations involving Lovac 1 and Lovac 2, we've already talked about

7 that. But if you consider the conversations to be the same as combat

8 reports, then that's all right. But as for any longer kind of reports,

9 then I don't know what you mean.

10 Q. I'll put it this way: On the 14th of July, after the information

11 that led you to believe that Lovac 1 was the chief, would your operatives

12 have been instructed to record and write down anything he said over the

13 airwaves?

14 A. Again, well, I hope that we resolved the issue with Lovac 1 and

15 the chief. Secondly, they received instructions from me, what they would

16 be monitoring. But if I was not there, I already mentioned the system

17 that we used. Lovac and Lovac 1 themselves, in their conversations, the

18 content of the conversations, forced us to monitor them and to stay with

19 them. They wouldn't have forced us to do that if it was a false network

20 because that is something that we very quickly established. We knew these

21 were reliable pieces of information and naturally we monitored that. And

22 we also monitored everyone else who was in their network and not only in

23 their network, you will find in the notebook that there were also others.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. McCloskey has been proven right because

25 when you condense this answer, I don't see much difference from what the

Page 8505

1 witness said from page 70, line 15 to page 71 line 18. It's more or less

2 the same. Anyway, you are free to conclude on this part, Mr. Haynes.

3 MR. HAYNES: We can take a break now.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. We will have a break of 25

5 minutes.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.

9 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I see from behind the column,

11 Mr. Nicholls.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You want to know what's happening with your witness.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, exactly. Good afternoon. I understand there

15 is approximately 20 to 25 minutes left of cross-examination, that there is

16 a short redirect and that Your Honours will issue a ruling so I wondered

17 if I could release the witness. I don't think we'd get to more than a few

18 minutes of his testimony. He's been waiting for a while.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think we can release the witness.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 Mr. Haynes.

24 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Witness, I've got three topics left to deal with you, and I'm

Page 8506

1 going to take them as briefly as I can. I want to ask you about a couple

2 of code-names that appear in the book from site one. And you've already

3 referred to both of them. The first is the name Pavle, and that appears

4 first of all at pages 13 and 14 in the English, and for your benefit, in

5 the book it's page 8957 at the top, or page 17, B/C/S, on e-court. Have

6 you found it, Witness?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Now, you should see the name Pavle linked there together with Vuk

9 and Ikar and then lower down on its own.

10 A. Yes, I see the code-name Pavle.

11 Q. And you can confirm that it appears on that page three times?

12 A. I see it there as four times.

13 Q. Thank you. I'll stand corrected. And could you now go to page 17

14 in the English. That's on your book, Witness, is page 8960 at the top.

15 Or page 20 in B/C/S e-court. It should be near the top of your page,

16 Witness. And it's in a section that begins --

17 A. I've found it. I've found it.

18 Q. I'm going to ask you to read that over to yourself. I'll read it

19 to you in the English. It says, "Palma asks, Lovac 1, that's L1, if the

20 blue police could shift to the right and leave at 1000 hours. L1 gave them

21 a message that they were going to set off at 1000 hours. At 0610 hours

22 Lovac 1 asked Ikar to check with Pavle if they left as Lovac 1 ordered

23 them to. Vuk told Pavle to speed up the insertion of the blue at the

24 right wing and move on as soon as possible. Pavle has to make contact

25 with me ASAP."

Page 8507

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes, I see it.

3 Q. Now, I'm not going to take unfair advantage of you. We agree,

4 that is the Prosecution and myself agree that those are the only

5 references to Pavle in the whole of that book. So he's mentioned

6 effectively in two conversations seven times. And I want to look at the

7 text of that conversation that you're looking at now.

8 Would you agree that from the text of that conversation that it

9 appears that whoever Pavle is, he is somebody who takes orders from Lovac

10 1, Vuk and Palma?

11 A. Well, you can see from the conversation that Pavle is supposed to

12 do something in compliance with an order from Lovac 1 and Palma.

13 Q. Thank you. And also Vuk tells him to speed up?

14 A. Yes, that's what it says. Yes.

15 Q. So would you agree with me that it appears whoever Pavle is, he is

16 someone who is subordinate to those these people?

17 A. Well, you can conclude from this conversation that he is

18 subordinate to Palma and Lovac 1.

19 Q. Would you also conclude from the fact that he only appears twice

20 in the whole of this book in two conversations, he's not a terribly

21 significant operative for your purposes?

22 A. I'm going to go back to the -- to what I said before. We were

23 monitoring certain frequencies, I'm not going to say that Pavle was not

24 important to us. At that moment everything was important to us, and I'm

25 not going to say that this is the only conversation where this certain

Page 8508

1 Pavle was mentioned. I don't know who it is, but the fact is that if you

2 went through the notebook, I haven't really gone through it in detail for

3 a long time in order to be able to refer to specific names, but if you

4 went through it and that -- you say that's it, then it's possible that he

5 has been mentioned that many times. But also, throughout the whole

6 operations it is impossible that there were no other conversations where

7 Pavle was mentioned, but we have just what is written here.

8 And you can conclude on the basis of this conversation that he was

9 receiving orders.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Now, one of the other persons mentioned in

11 that particular conversation is Palma. Now, is Palma a code-name with

12 which you were familiar before you embarked upon this particular operation

13 from site one?

14 A. I think that Palma was the command of the 1st Zvornik Brigade.

15 Palma was used in radio relay communications. Here it's said, and you can

16 connect it to that in some way, but again, in radio connections, the names

17 and the secret codes are very difficult to link together.

18 Q. Now, I'm going to show you some other passages to indicate that

19 your operators seem to draw a distinction between Palma, as it was the

20 organisation, and Palma, a person. I'm going to ask now that you be

21 shown, please, page 18, English, e-court, page 21 B/C/S e-court, and for

22 your purposes, Witness, that's 8961 at the top. Can you see it at 9.25,

23 and again a little lower down, below 10.30, that the correspondent is said

24 to be "Palma in person"?

25 A. "Palma in person" means that unit commanders addressed each other

Page 8509

1 in person. If you say some unit it's not necessarily a person, but if you

2 said "Palma in person" it would mean that that would be the commander of

3 that unit. That's how it was.

4 Q. Thank you. So your understanding of the codes, even before you

5 were involved in this operation, would be that "Palma in person" would

6 indicate the commander of the Zvornik Brigade?

7 A. I assume that that was so, but I don't think you can state

8 anything with certainty, but in all operations, that addition "in person"

9 was something that referred to the unit commanders.

10 Q. And would the contrary be true, that if the entry did not

11 contain "in person" it would simply indicate that it was a communication

12 from command headquarters?

13 A. That would be that, yes. If you just mentioned the secret name,

14 it could be that somebody from the centre of the brigade or the centre of

15 the unit was conveying something, but if you say "in person" for the most

16 part what was meant by that was the commander of that unit. Or the

17 komandir, if it was a lower ranking unit.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, I dare say you were aware of that -- at that time

19 that the commander of the Zvornik Brigade was Vinko Pandurevic?

20 A. I did, yes.

21 Q. And I know that certainly recently you've had occasion to hear his

22 voice, haven't you?

23 A. No, I didn't. No. Even if I were to hear it now, you cannot

24 really compare that to how it was then, and I've already said it was quite

25 a long time ago, so I'm not in that environment anymore. I'm not doing

Page 8510

1 that sort of work anymore. So I really don't think that I would be able

2 to recognise the voice now.

3 Q. Please don't misunderstand the question, but during the course of

4 your proofing for coming to give evidence here, you were played a tape,

5 weren't you, by Mr. McCloskey?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you were able to identify some of the people who were speaking

8 on that tape. One of them was Semso Muminovic, wasn't it?

9 A. Yes, but it wasn't difficult to recognise his voice. He has a

10 characteristic voice, so it was no problem at all to recognise him.

11 Q. And he was speaking on that tape to Vinko Pandurevic?

12 A. I know that not from this kind of work, not from radio

13 reconnaissance. I know it. I was at some points in time next to Semso

14 Muminovic when the negotiations were underway.

15 Q. Thank you. And were you next to him on both the 15th and the 16th

16 of July when such conversations took place?

17 A. I said that I was not next to him all the time, but I was there

18 for some of the time when the negotiations were going on.

19 Q. Thank you. How many conversations were you present at?

20 A. To be honest, I was doing other work at that time, but I was there

21 two -- perhaps for two conversations, and I didn't really pay so much

22 attention to that. It wasn't in my job description to monitor that.

23 Q. I understand that, but you now know, you probably knew then that

24 one of them was being recorded. Was the other one recorded as well?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. The conclusion of the first -- in the

Page 8511

1 first question --

2 MR. HAYNES: That's fine, I will rephrase it.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's the case of putting two questions.


5 Q. You heard that tape this week. From the best of your

6 recollection, was that a conversation you were present at?

7 A. There were more conversations probably. I cannot recall all the

8 particulars of a conversation. And as I said, that's not what I would

9 have been able to do. I mean, had that been the only thing since 1995

10 that I was supposed to remember, I would probably have remembered it. But

11 that wasn't the only thing.

12 Q. Was there a tape recorder being used at either -- sorry. Was

13 there a tape recorder being used at either of the conversations you were

14 present at?

15 A. I am not really aware of that, but perhaps there could have been a

16 Dictaphone like the journalists would use. I did not record it, so --

17 myself, so I really don't know if there was some other recording.

18 MR. HAYNES: Private session, please.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8512

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.


12 Q. The conversations you recall, were they on the same day or more

13 than one day?

14 A. I was there for the duration of one day.

15 Q. And so far as you were aware, did Semso Muminovic speak to any

16 other member of the army of Republika Srpska?

17 A. I never really discussed that topic with him. I know that when I

18 would come to the forward command post, and if I wanted to see him, I was

19 told that he was speaking with Pandurevic, and after that I never really

20 spoke with him. I had no need to ask him who or if he spoke with

21 somebody.

22 Q. Regardless of what you were told directly by Semso Muminovic, you

23 have told us there were a number of people present. Did anybody else ever

24 tell you that he spoke to anybody other than Vinko Pandurevic?

25 A. To make it clear from the start, I was not at the command post

Page 8513

1 then, the forward command post. Perhaps I came when that part of the

2 conversation was going on. I wasn't there to see what Semso Muminovic was

3 doing or to question any of those present at the forward command post,

4 what Semso Muminovic was doing, whether he spoke with Vinko or this person

5 or that person. I had my own assignments at the time, I completed them.

6 This did happen at the time. I was a participant there, even though that

7 did not occupy too much of my attention. So I don't know. I didn't ask

8 anyone at the forward command post about it; I had no need to do that.

9 Q. Just so we're clear, did you ever hear any suggestion that Semso

10 Muminovic had spoken to somebody called Vukotic?

11 A. I personally didn't.

12 Q. Would you turn your book, please, to page 8957? That's page 13 in

13 the English. It's a passage you've looked at before. It's -- it should

14 be about halfway down your page, maybe only a third of the way down, and

15 it's the passage that begins, "Vuk- Lovac 1330 hours."

16 A. I found it. When I said that I didn't hear, what I meant, I

17 didn't hear from anybody present. This conversation I read it later, but

18 to tell you the truth, these negotiations were not within my scope of

19 duties, and what is written down here was written down in order to record

20 the thoughts and the position of the army of Republika Srpska. I

21 personally wasn't interested in who talked to whom and so on.

22 At that moment, I wasn't even paying attention to whether this was

23 Vuk, this was Pandurevic. All I was interested in were the facts.

24 Q. Given what you know, leave aside what's in front of you, given

25 what you know about what was going on over the period that you were at the

Page 8514

1 forward command post, is it possible that in those entries where it is

2 written "Vuk" should be written "Vinko"?

3 A. Most likely this operator would not have written down "Vuk"

4 without a reason. He must have been mentioned. They couldn't write Vinko

5 at all, because operators were really not privy to the identity of a

6 participant. Most likely this was mentioned earlier. In this case, the

7 conversation was between Vuk and Lovac, a code-name was used, but I don't

8 know anything about this code-name.

9 Q. Just going down the page a little, you can see, can't you, from

10 the -- what's written in the book, that the first conversation concerning

11 Semso or Zukov was at 1330 hours that day?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And at 1410, that's 40 minutes later, an order was given to cease

14 all activities.

15 A. It says here that a truce had been agreed, and that further firing

16 should stop.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the last sentence.


19 Q. Would you mind repeating your last sentence, Witness, please.

20 A. It says here that they agreed on a truce, following which a shell

21 was fired and then they mention artillery Igman, and Igman 1, and then

22 following that they asked for all further action to cease at 1410.

23 Q. Thank you. Just one more thing on this point. In the tape

24 recording you listened to with Mr. McCloskey, it's right, isn't it, that

25 Semso Muminovic refers to Vinko Pandurevic by his first name, Vinko, and

Page 8515

1 Vinko Pandurevic refers to Semso Muminovic by his nickname, Zukov?

2 A. Most likely that's how it is. This recording was made on

3 Dictaphone, so other voices are heard as well.

4 Q. How do you know the recording was made on a Dictaphone?

5 A. I suppose so. Because nothing else could have been used. I don't

6 think that a UHER was used, because there wasn't one there. There was

7 also no computer at the forward command post, so there was nothing else

8 but Dictaphone.

9 Q. Can we now go, please, to page 19 in the English. For you,

10 Witness, it's 8961 at the top. And it's page 21 in the B/C/S e-court.

11 Have you got the page, Witness?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And to help you, we're looking at the very bottom of that page at

14 the entry that's timed 11.40.

15 A. I found it.

16 Q. And just so that it's in the record, it reads, "Igman 1 said that

17 weapons are to be ready to fire at planned targets. During this period,

18 user Sidro was not responding and everyone called him. They also fired

19 their artillery at our weapons. At 1140 they seized some elements of our

20 weapons but they did not fire because of the cease-fire."

21 It appears from that at 1140 on what is the following day, the

22 16th of July, there is still a cease-fire in place or there is a

23 cease-fire again in place from the previous day. Would you agree with

24 that?

25 A. I can't remember now. But --

Page 8516

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: [Previous translation continues] ... I don't think

2 there is in evidence in the record that there was a cease-fire on the

3 15th. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I didn't see that. If I am, I stand

4 corrected.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, what's your position on that?

6 MR. HAYNES: I thought I had just elicited the answer in relation

7 to page 13 that there was an order to cease all activities and the

8 activities were stopped. It's at page 13 in the English. And the witness

9 has just given the evidence that his understanding was that there had been

10 a cessation of activities.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Would you like Mr. Haynes to repeat the

13 question to you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be good.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, please.


17 Q. Looking at that entry for 1140, it appears that there was a

18 cease-fire in existence at that time, doesn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And on the question of interpretation of these summaries that we

21 were dealing with earlier, can you help me as to what it means when it

22 says "they also fired their artillery at our weapons"? Who is "they" and

23 who is "our"? Can you tell one way or the other?

24 A. I can't decipher this with great accuracy.

25 Q. No. That was my point earlier on. It's very difficult to because

Page 8517

1 it's a summary of conversations that have been summarised for you by a

2 number of people. That's the position, isn't it?

3 A. Based on this conversation it is clear that Igman 1, which must be

4 somebody in charge of the artillery, conveyed that the weapons are to be

5 prepared to fire at previously determined and planned targets. And then

6 it says that participant Sidro did not respond, everybody called him in

7 order to convey something to him, but they didn't manage to get in touch.

8 Q. Now, would you just go over the page, please, because I'm going to

9 try and finish with you today, if possible. To your page 8962. We're

10 still on English page 19, and we will go over to page 20. And that's in

11 the B/C/S, page 22 on e-court.

12 Now, you read this passage earlier. It's the one that

13 reads, "Palma in person for Lovac 1 in person." Have you got that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it goes on, "We are negotiating with the opposing side that

16 they get out in the direction of Nezuk up the stream and up the left

17 towards Zuti/zemlja." "Palma 1 to Lovac 1." This looks like a separate

18 call. Would you agree?

19 A. I don't know what you mean by separate call.

20 Q. Well, the participants, Palma and Lovac 1 are listed again. So it

21 suggests that -- it's a separate call from the one previously we were

22 reading.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And it says, "We agreed that their axis is going to be towards the

25 stream so that we liberate Resnik and Govedarica. We are going to open it

Page 8518

1 there and once it passes we are returning to our old positions. It is

2 about the withdrawal of our dead and you said that that was the BiH dead

3 and wounded and the Chetniks received an order to shoot, if someone

4 attempted to go into the depth of the territory and that message was at

5 quarter past 1.00 in the afternoon. Do you agree?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that time, what you weren't asked to read by Mr. McCloskey, is

8 the Chetniks received an order not to open fire while the men were going

9 through. I would like, since you weren't asked this, your interpretation

10 of that sentence, please?

11 A. No, this pertains to the same thing. Members, and I already said

12 that members of the army of Republika Srpska had been given an order not

13 to fire at Muslim forces unless the Muslim forces do that first. I have

14 mentioned that earlier.

15 Q. Witness, I had one or two other questions of you, but I see the

16 time and I don't see there is any need to keep you here just to ask them,

17 so I am not going to ask any further questions.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Do you think you can finish

19 your redirect in two minutes?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead. And I thank you so much,

22 Mr. Haynes.

23 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

24 Q. Witness, this RUP radio that you say was operated by the VRS that

25 you were capturing communications from, did that have an encryption mode

Page 8519

1 or cipher mode?

2 A. RUP 12 is a device that has absolutely no encryption capability.

3 There was another device, and those who are not familiar with the

4 equipment could easily confuse them because they're almost identical.

5 This one with encryption capability was called RUP 2/2K. It's a basically

6 similar device, but it has an additional segment which enables encryption.

7 So this additional segment enables the participants to have encrypted

8 communication, something that cannot be detected with ordinary equipment.

9 However, there were ways of getting around that, sometimes they would not

10 use the encryption segment, and they would speak openly. Sometimes that

11 happened. We would force them to stop using the encryption device, and to

12 use the language that was intelligible to us.

13 Q. How about the Motorola, was there any way to encrypt the Motorola?

14 A. If simple Motorolas were used then, yes, there are so-called

15 Motorolas with a scrambler that have the encryption capability. And they

16 can be jammed. They used it seldom because other participants could not

17 understand them, and they would not be able to communicate with other

18 participants.

19 Q. Did you know from -- or did you have information from listening to

20 these communications from the VRS and the Serb police how many men from

21 the Serb army or police forces were killed before the corridor was opened

22 on the 16th?

23 MR. OSTOJIC: Mr. President, I know it's late, but I think it's

24 beyond the scope -- I'm sorry. Beyond the scope of the cross, and if he

25 wanted to ask that, he should have asked that possibly in his direct.

Page 8520

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you have the same objection, Mr. Haynes.

4 MR. HAYNES: Quite.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think the tenor and the meaning of much of his

7 cross was that his client opened this corridor out of some --

8 MR. HAYNES: And I don't think he ought to say any more in front

9 of the witness.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think my point is clear, that there was some

11 exculpatory...

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Our conclusion is that certain part of the

14 cross-examination was broad enough to allow for the conclusion that this

15 arises from it. So go ahead, Mr. McCloskey. And please try to bring your

16 redirect to an end because we have already overstepped by five minutes.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: My last question.

18 Q. Did you have any information of how many young Serb men died

19 before the corridor was opened on the 16th?

20 A. To tell you the truth, I didn't have any reliable information.

21 But I think that it wasn't a significant number because those people were

22 not armed. This is my opinion. And I didn't have any specific

23 information to this effect.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You can stop there.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further.

Page 8521

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.

2 MR. HAYNES: I just wonder whether Mr. McCloskey would be good

3 enough to clear up an answer the witness gave in redirect, namely, how it

4 is that this witness and his operatives forced the Bosnian -- the army of

5 the VRS to speak openly, because it's plain on his witness statement. I

6 didn't cross-examine him about it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And we, not being technical people, how can you --

8 you said that there is the R -- RUP 2/2K, which had an encryption device

9 segment, but however, you were in a position to force the VRS to stop

10 using that encryption device, and to use the language that was

11 intelligible. How could you do that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is how we did it: If, when

13 scanning a frequency range, or if during the conversation they would

14 mention that they are going into safe mode, then all we could hear were

15 unintelligible signals. We couldn't hear any figures, names or anything

16 like that. So whenever we came across such communication, we would jam

17 them briefly with a powerful device. And this jamming would interrupt the

18 signal so that the other person on the other end could not understand it

19 either.

20 In the majority of cases, throughout the war, based on my

21 experience, the signalsman, since they have to pass the information

22 across, would switch off the encryption device and talk openly. Whenever

23 they tried to use such devices, there would be a serious miscommunication

24 between them. And very often they would then speak openly about topics

25 that should normally be encrypted. And the best way to force them to

Page 8522

1 cease using encryption would be to jam their conversations.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: At the same time, and please, Madam Registrar, you

3 could communicate to Judge Antonetti the reason why we overstepped our

4 minute.

5 But that would also mean that they would be immediately aware that

6 someone is monitoring that conversation. So it would be tantamount to

7 going back to a situation or position where they would continue to be

8 monitored. Would that not be a correct proposition?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not necessarily. Because in the

10 middle of the conversation they could not, or they could hardly realise

11 that there was jamming, because they receive encrypted message. They

12 don't hear audible human voice. And they could think that, yes, there is

13 some interruption, but they do not necessarily have to conclude that it's

14 due to jamming. It could be due to other problems.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. We have to stop here. Witness, I

16 wish to thank you for having come over to give testimony and I am thanking

17 you on behalf of the Trial Chamber. I also wish you a safe journey back

18 home. Our staff will attend to you.

19 We stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00. We will

20 address the exhibits and we will give our ruling tomorrow morning. Thank

21 you.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day of March,

24 2007, at 9.00 a.m.