Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8523

1 Friday, 9 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar -- Mr. Registrar, good morning to

6 you. Could you kindly call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Forgive my mistaken identity, but after

10 International Women's Day, you wouldn't blame me.

11 So, all the accused are here. All the Defence teams are in full

12 force today. And so same for the Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey -- yeah,

13 okay. Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls, Mr. Vanderpuye.

14 For the record, as per our ruling yesterday, accused Popovic is

15 not present. For the record also he has signed a document waiving his

16 right to be present and authorising the proceedings to continue in his

17 absence.

18 Let's conclude the tendering document -- exhibit tendering

19 process, please.

20 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. With your question about the

22 65 ter number situation for the tactical intercepts, I looked into that

23 and they don't have actual technical 65 ter numbers, as you are correct.

24 What they did have was the number that we gave it which was pursuant to

25 our 92 bis motion of May 2006 and your ruling on that motion of September

Page 8524

1 12th, 2006, allowing us to mark those for identification pending the

2 outcome of the intercepts. So we also have a -- I think a one-page or

3 perhaps two-page 65 ter motion out of an abundance of caution that I can

4 file this morning, if you would like to that fulfill the process. But as

5 you can see, these have been litigated and talked about for quite some

6 time now, and have had numbers, but to make it perfect, according to the

7 system we've set up, we do have that -- that motion, if you'd like us to

8 file it.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the position of the Defence teams on this?

10 Mr. Bourgon.

11 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,

12 Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.

13 Mr. President, the -- our initial view on -- with respect to these

14 documents, and I'm talking about documents P2231 to P2234, our initial

15 position was to object from the get-go before this witness would testify,

16 because they did not have Rule 65 ter numbers. However, I do of course

17 recognise that these documents were part of the Prosecution's motion for

18 92 bis. They've been disclosed to us a long time in advance and there

19 are absolutely no surprise for us in terms of dealing with these

20 documents.

21 That being said, Mr. President, there remains, as my colleague

22 acknowledges, a technical mistake, and we fail to understand why the

23 Prosecution is not able to abide by the Rules of this Tribunal when it

24 comes to disclosure and filing of material and filing admittance of

25 evidence before this Trial Chamber. Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 8525

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

2 Any further comments from the Defence teams? None.

3 Do you want -- wish to respond to that, Mr. McCloskey?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. So I think basically your

6 response, in part, at least, means that the Prosecution can be exempted

7 from filing an ad hoc motion. Is that correct, Mr. Bourgon?

8 MR. BOURGON: That is indeed correct, Mr. President. And I forgot

9 to mention one thing is, of course, based on what my colleague said

10 yesterday concerning the second -- I'm looking at the exhibits from 2233

11 and 2234 where my colleague said that he did not intend to lead any

12 evidence from these documents with respect to the acts and conduct of

13 the -- of any of the accused, I invite the Trial Chamber to basically

14 maybe not taken -- not admit these two documents. But it's not an

15 objection on our part. Thank you, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 Do you wish to comment on that?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Mr. President, I do think they have

19 information in it that may be helpful to the Court in looking at the

20 overall product of this witness, and they were part of the record of the

21 last case upon which the 92 bis statement was based. So I think it would

22 be a good idea for the Court to have it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. One further thing in relation to a

24 statement that you made yesterday at the beginning of the sitting,

25 Mr. McCloskey. When you referred to the tactical intercepts notebook at

Page 8526

1 the beginning of the sitting, actually, I can go straight to it. You said

2 that in relation to tactical intercepts notebook you were not tendering

3 that if -- in as far as it may contain references to the acts and conducts

4 of any of the accused.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the -- what I meant to say was we

6 had a notebook, this little hard-back notebook and that's what Mr. Haynes

7 and I spent most of the time talking about. That does have acts or

8 conducts material for Vinko Pandurevic, and that is offered for his acts

9 and conduct.

10 The pile of papers from the second site is the one I was referring

11 to that I am not asking for any acts of conduct evidence in those piles of

12 papers. There is a couple of references that sound familiar, but I don't

13 think it was necessary to -- to use that evidence in that manner, or go to

14 the effort of calling witnesses, and all that would be part of that. So

15 that pile of paper I could ask you --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But which one --

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll get you the numbers.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We want -- we would like to know whether it is

19 P02231 or P02232, because in the list that we have they are both described

20 as tactical intercept notebooks. The first one, dates covered are 1st

21 July to 24th November of 1995. The second one the same. But the second

22 one is draft English translation. So I would imagine that you are

23 referring to both.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. It's -- 2233 and 2234 are the stack of

25 papers from the second site, English and B/C/S. And that's what I refer

Page 8527

1 to when I say no acts or conducts evidence.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are referring to P02233, so with reference to

3 yesterday's statement by Mr. McCloskey as per page -- as contained in page

4 6, line 7, to page 7, line 5 of the transcript, reference was to Exhibit

5 P02233, and its translation -- equivalent translation in English, P02234.

6 Is that correct?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct. Those are the papers from site

8 two that ...

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And then in the second part of your statement

11 yesterday you said, "As for the notebook for the other material, that

12 principally --" one moment. "That principally goes to the acts or

13 conducts of General Pandurevic, which Mr. Haynes and I will be debating,

14 perhaps some issues, but you will see how that falls out. But that's just

15 the background of -- I'm not aware of any other acts or conduct from that

16 material of any other accused though there are code-names that I am not

17 aware of who they are, but for your knowledge the notebook will go to acts

18 and conducts of General Pandurevic."

19 Could you specify exactly which tactical notebook you are now

20 referring to? Or you were then referring to.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: That is 2232 and 2231, and of course in the -- the

22 recent motion we will be filing we will set out the relevance of the

23 particular parts that we're referring to. So that's clear.


25 Mr. Haynes, do you agree with -- not with its substance or its

Page 8528

1 validity, but its -- the correctness of the reference?

2 MR. HAYNES: Yes, I do agree that 2231 and 2232 are the relevant

3 notebooks.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Haynes.

5 So are there any other objections on the part of the Defence, of

6 any of the Defence teams in relation to the other exhibits that the

7 Prosecution wishes to tender? Mr. Haynes.

8 MR. HAYNES: Not an objection, but while it's fresh in our minds,

9 I put certain figures to the witness yesterday, which had been the subject

10 of discussions between myself and Mr. McCloskey. In fact, he corrected me

11 on one of them. We did agree that, I think, Lovac appears in that

12 notebook 82 times; Lovac 1, 62 times; Parma, 11 times; and Pavle, now,

13 seven times.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Were he correcting you -- corrected you whether it

15 was three times or four times on that particular page, but that's not

16 material.

17 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will agree to that, though, as we all know, we

19 may be off a number or two. But yes, that's a credible counting.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you also agree that these tactical intercept

21 notebooks should, like other intercepts, be for the time being marked for

22 identification?

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would, unless Defence counsel would like to jump

24 that particular hurdle.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't imagine so, but Mr. Haynes?

Page 8529

1 MR. HAYNES: Perhaps safer that we take the course you suggest for

2 the time being.


4 Any further objections or remarks or statements in relation to the

5 exhibits that the Prosecution wishes to tender? None. So those marked in

6 bold characters will remain under seal. Intercepts will be marked for

7 identification purposes, and as -- as far as P02233, P02234, with the

8 caveat that I referred to earlier on, namely that they are not to

9 constitute evidence of -- they are not to go to the acts or conducts of

10 any of the accused, or they are not meant to be. The rest are admitted,

11 but, please, Mr. Registrar, I would like you to consult with the

12 participants; any one of them should remain under seal.

13 Okay. Does any one of the Defence team wish to tender any

14 documents? We hear none. We hear none. So that chapter is closed, and

15 we can move to the ruling that we promised you yesterday and which we

16 couldn't hand down in time.

17 As the issues that we will be dealing with are interrelated, we

18 thought we would best address them together.

19 The first relates to the objection which was raised during the

20 sitting of two days ago in relation to the admission of the document which

21 was attached to the witness statement, namely the attendance sheet bearing

22 ERN 0606-6236. Two issues were raised which I will address in reverse

23 order.

24 It was suggested that the fact that this document was created by

25 another person precluded its admission into evidence through

Page 8530

1 yesterday's -- or through Witness PW-158. We disagree. The witness was

2 able to identify and describe the document, and the witness gave evidence

3 as to how he obtained it. It was indeed used in his testimony. It is

4 clearly relevant, and the fact that he is not the author of the document

5 does not, in this Tribunal, preclude its admission. I need not remind

6 anyone of the vast array of documents which are before us, including many

7 submitted by the Defence that have been introduced through witnesses who

8 did not create them.

9 The second argument raises -- raised -- the second argument raised

10 relates to the 65 ter list, on which we have heard several submissions

11 during the past months. Let us make it clear: We do attach importance to

12 Rule 65 ter, as expressed in our previous decisions, but we also take a

13 purposeful and pragmatic approach to it. While generally the Prosecution

14 should be applying to amend its list when it intends to use new documents

15 with a particular witness, as circumstances will vary from case to case,

16 this is not an absolute requirement.

17 In the case of this particular entry from the logbook, namely the

18 attendance sheet to which I referred earlier on, this is a document that

19 the witness produced after having first obtained it from a colleague. The

20 document was of use to the witness in confirming the dates of his shifts

21 in January of 1995. When such a document is produced to the Prosecution,

22 what is important is that it be disclosed to the Defence in a timely

23 manner. In this case we believe that was done. The only remaining issue

24 then was whether the Defence felt they were in a position to proceed with

25 cross-examination, given the recent nature of the disclosure. Since the

Page 8531

1 Defence confirmed that they were, and indeed there was extensive

2 cross-examination carried out with respect to the log, we do not see this

3 submission as a ground for not admitting the document in evidence.

4 However, we believe that the proper procedure in instances like

5 this is for the Prosecution to tender the document as a separate exhibit,

6 with its own number, rather than incorporating it as part of a statement.

7 This will avoid any problems in locating and identifying the document in

8 future. This document is therefore being admitted, but as a separate

9 exhibit.

10 We now move to an issue raised earlier on during the week. Again,

11 with respect to the 65 ter list. This time in the context of a redirect

12 of witness, Ms. Stefanie Frease conducted by the Prosecution on the 6th of

13 March. Rule 65 ter is designed to provide for disclosure of documents and

14 exhibits the Prosecution intends to call or offer, respectively. The

15 original list is filed at the pre-trial stage, and, as such, it relates

16 directly to the Prosecution's intention at that time. Obviously the

17 Prosecution, in preparing this list, cannot be expected to anticipate the

18 content and direction of every cross-examination so as to be in a position

19 to also include any document that might possibly be needed for redirect.

20 Material identified for use in redirect need not be included in the 65 ter

21 list, or be given a 65 ter number before it is made use of. Needless to

22 say, this procedure would equally be applicable to the Defence at the

23 appropriate time.

24 Similarly, the Defence contends that the Prosecution has to

25 identify such documents as part of the list of exhibits intended to be

Page 8532

1 used with the witness, which list is tendered prior to

2 examination-in-chief. Again, the Prosecution cannot be expected to list

3 any document that it thinks might possibly be needed for redirect. This

4 would actually serve to confuse, rather than clarify matters, as the

5 exhibit list for each witness would be cluttered with material which might

6 never, in reality, then be introduced by the Prosecution.

7 As a result, the documents at issue, namely P02438, P02467 and

8 P02469 were properly put to the witness in redirect, and they are

9 accordingly admitted.

10 So I think we can now move. Are there any other -- one moment,

11 because I have a problem with my ...

12 Are there any preliminaries that you would like to raise?

13 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

14 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. We take good note and we

15 thank the Chamber for its ruling on these issues which we believe indeed

16 are important. That being said, there are two issues I would like to

17 raise concerning the date book which was just admitted.

18 First of all what is admitted is only two pages of the date book

19 and not the complete date book, which is the first preliminary issue. I

20 would like, Mr. President, because your ruling says that this Trial

21 Chamber believes that this exhibit was disclosed to the Defence in time.

22 I would like the Prosecution to confirm - I have spoken to my colleague -

23 that document had not been given to us until the morning before

24 cross-examination began. So if we can get my colleague to confirm this,

25 and I have shown him the memorandum which was sent us saying that that

Page 8533

1 document would be disclosed to us, but it was never. It was included on

2 the electronic court system, but never sent, nor given to us. That's the

3 first issue.

4 The second issue, Mr. President, concerning the -- this date book,

5 and now I'm referring to the complete date book. I asked yesterday before

6 this Trial Chamber that we would like to have the complete date book

7 disclosed to us, and my colleague from the Prosecution responded that he

8 was about to -- he was trying to get a copy of it before it moved out. We

9 believe it is important indeed that a copy be made out before the witness

10 leaves with this date book because of the issues that were raised in

11 cross-examination, namely the fact that some pages were taken away from

12 the book. So we would not like to lose or that -- to have this item of

13 evidence, of potentially evidence to move out without a copy being made

14 and disclosed to the Defence so that we may consider whether it would be

15 necessary to recall, for further cross-examination, the owner of the

16 document. Thank you, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, you have repeated what you have said

18 yesterday.

19 What's the latest on the commitment that you made yesterday,

20 Mr. McCloskey, to try and make sure it remains here and be disclosed in

21 its entirety to the Defence teams?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: We did capture it, and -- last night, and it was

23 to be scanned, either this morning or last night. And so we have it, and

24 it's available.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: What -- is there a problem in keeping it here,

Page 8534

1 available in case further questions are asked in relation to the missing

2 pages, or as it has been put, torn pages?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think so. We were going to contact its

4 owner and -- and find out. But I don't think so, given what's happened

5 and the attitude that the witnesses have all shown.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

7 As regards the first point that was raised by Mr. Bourgon, I don't

8 think there is any further comments from your side.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, if there is any help needed on when these

10 materials were provided counsel, we can give that. But of course it is

11 our view that when something is identified clearly and it's in an

12 electronic record, accessible to the Defence -- I don't know if you want

13 me to get into that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't think we are on the same wave-length.

15 It's -- the submission that Mr. Bourgon made it was not disclosed in a

16 timely fashion because it was disclosed the day -- same day as the

17 hearing. I was under the impression that since it formed part of the

18 witness's statement at time, one of you, I think it was Mr. Vanderpuye,

19 had stated that it had been disclosed quite a few days earlier, as part of

20 the statement, and that there -- it was therefore available to the Defence

21 teams when the statement itself was disclosed. I mean I start corrected

22 if that is not the correct position, perhaps you can enlighten us on it.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, think you're correct, but Mr. Vanderpuye

24 knows the details of that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

Page 8535

1 Mr. Vanderpuye, do you wish to add anything?

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Perhaps I can clarify a couple of things. My

3 recollection, although it is foggy, and it shouldn't be, is that the

4 witness in question testified, I think, on the 7th of March.


6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Prior to that, on the 28th of February, which is

7 I think a day after the statement itself was signed, notification of the

8 statement --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: 27th of February it was signed.

10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Right. 27th of February. Notification of the

11 statement was sent to the Defence. In the context of that notification we

12 specifically referred to the documents that were shown to the witness and

13 noted that one document was attached to his statement and that the other

14 documents had been loaded into e-court. Mr. Bourgon is correct that the

15 physical page wasn't sent to the Defence, but it was part of the

16 electronic submission of what had been uploaded into e-court and I think

17 the Defence's attention was drawn to that fact in the 28th February e-mail

18 or communication that we had with them.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can leave it at that. It is our --

20 Mr. Bourgon, I don't think there is need for further submissions. We are

21 going to close it there. We take note of what you submitted.

22 Our ruling is to enjoin the Prosecution to do its level best to

23 disclose all material in a timely fashion to the Defence teams.

24 Otherwise, we will encounter problems, otherwise we will be put in a

25 position where we have to postpone cross-examinations, where possibly we

Page 8536

1 may even have to postpone sittings. So please do your level best. I know

2 that we are pressurising you to move, and move, and move, but that

3 shouldn't mean that certain principles can be dispensed with.

4 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

5 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I need to say for the record that I

6 do not have that correspondence with me today, but I will produce that

7 e-mail simply to say that to the best of my recollection, there were no

8 references of this material being placed on e-court. Had there been such

9 a reference, we would have went to go and get the document on e-court. In

10 this case, my recollection said that this material will be -- will be

11 provided to you as soon as practically possible. The material was not

12 provided to us. When we received a copy of that statement initially on

13 28th February, it was a draft version with actually track changes. The

14 final copy of the statement we only took it on the morning of the

15 testimony of the witness, and that's when we can see this document for the

16 first time. Was it our responsibility to go and get this document or is

17 it the responsibility of the Prosecution to give us that document in

18 advance, especially that it is a new document that does not have a 65 ter

19 number, that was not on their list, and that was produced by --

20 specifically for this witness. We believe, Mr. President, it was the duty

21 of the Prosecution to give us this document, which was only give to us on

22 the morning. And the morning of the testimony I went to see my colleague

23 and I asked him, "Where is this date report?" And that's when he showed

24 me the statement that had been uploaded in e-court.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

Page 8537

1 I think -- let's close it here. If there is a filing from

2 Mr. Bourgon, please feel free to answer it or to file whatever you feel

3 like. But I think we shouldn't take more of our court time. Let's bring

4 in the next witness, please.

5 I just want to make sure, because I was checking yesterday, that

6 this witness did not have any protective measures in the previous trials

7 where he testified. Does he have protective measures or are you seeking

8 protective measures for him for this case or not?

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours. You're correct. No

10 protective measures before, no protective measures now.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: However, out of an abundance of caution and my

13 friends might suggest it, I told the witness that -- exactly, that it was

14 likely that that would occur and he anticipates that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Has the provision of our Rules been explained to him

16 or not.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: I've explained it to him as best I could,

18 Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That should be -- so.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are a Prosecution

24 witness. Before you start your testimony you need to undertake in a

25 solemn way that you will be testifying the truth. Madam Usher is going to

Page 8538

1 be giving you the text of the solemn declaration that you are required to

2 make. Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking

3 with us.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat and make yourself

9 comfortable. You will be examined in chief by Mr. Nicholls, whom you've

10 met already. He will then be followed by several of the Defence teams on

11 cross-examination.

12 You lived part of the events that are part of the subject matter

13 of this case, or so is the suggestion. It is my responsibility on behalf

14 of the Trial Chamber to bring to your attention a provision which we have

15 in our Rules which is included out of due deference to a principle that no

16 one should be expected to incriminate himself. I'm referring to the

17 possibility that in the course of your testimony questions may be put to

18 you which, if answered, could possibly, in your mind, incriminate you.

19 You have a protection against that in our Rules, which provide

20 that a witness may object to answering a question or making a statement

21 which might tend to incriminate him. However, this is not an absolute

22 rule. It's not an absolute right that you have. We may, after

23 deliberating, decide to exempt you from answering such questions, or we

24 may decide to compel you to answer such questions. If we compel you to

25 answer such questions, you are covered because any testimony that you

Page 8539

1 might give when you are compelled to give it shall not be used as evidence

2 in any subsequent prosecution which might be taken against you, except if

3 we catch you giving false testimony.

4 In that case, if your statement amounts to false testimony, then

5 it can be used against you.

6 So is it clear to you?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand this has already been explained to

9 you. I just want to make sure that you understand your rights.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think we can safely proceed now.

12 Mr. Nicholls, he's all yours.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

15 Q. Good morning, sir.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. As I explained, it to you, I tried to, it's going to be a little

18 different, your testimony. We are going to submit a transcript and so

19 there will not be as many questions from me to you and I will read a

20 summary of your testimony.

21 First of all, let me ask you this: With the assistance of an

22 interpreter who read it to you, did you review the entire transcript of

23 your testimony, your prior testimony in the Blagojevic case?

24 A. It was more in the Jokic case than Blagojevic case, but yes.

25 Q. You read your entire -- you had your entire prior testimony read

Page 8540

1 to you though. Is that right?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. And can you please attest that the transcript of that testimony

4 accurately reflects, to the best of your memory, what you stated during

5 your testimony?

6 A. Yes. The essence of the events, to the best of my recollection.

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, if you could start with identification

8 of the witness. Name of the witness.


10 Q. And your name, sir, is Pero Petrovic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. One last question on the transcript. Could you also confirm that

13 if you were asked the same questions again today that your answers would

14 be the same?

15 A. All right.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Before I read the summary, Your Honours, I would

17 like to just run through the exhibits that were used before and their

18 current numbers to make it easier when reviewing the transcript.

19 In the previous testimony the witness was shown P525, which is 65

20 ter number 82 in this case. He was also shown P229, which has two 65 ter

21 numbers in this case, 997 and 1161. He was shown a photograph, P17.2,

22 which in this case is 1773 and 1774. It's the same photograph, it's just

23 that in the prior exhibit it was put together as a panoramic. So 77 --

24 1773 is the left part of P17.2 and 1774 is the right part of P17.2. He

25 was shown photograph P19.3, which is 1811 in this case.

Page 8541

1 Finally, Your Honours, there were two exhibits shown in the prior

2 testimony, which we applied for and you granted the motion, I thank you,

3 to allow us to add that to our 65 ter list. That was P666, a diagram

4 drawn by the witness, which now has number 02471, and P667, a map which

5 now has 65 ter number 02472. That is all of the exhibits which will be

6 included, and I will now read a short summary of the prior testimony.

7 Mr. Petrovic was born on the 8th of March, 1960 in Gornja Pilica

8 Zvornik municipality. He is a Bosnian Serb. Presently Mr. Petrovic works

9 as an assistant warehouse keeper at the Birac company in Zvornik. In May

10 1992 he was mobilised into the VRS and served as a soldier in the 1st

11 Infantry Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade. At this time he also held the

12 position of the president of the Pilica local commune. The Pilica local

13 commune is an organ which represents the needs of the local population

14 before the official organs of Zvornik municipality.

15 The witness testified that the main purpose of the local commune

16 is to ensure that the basic infrastructure is maintained and that basic

17 services are provided for the residents of the commune.

18 During the war Mr. Petrovic spent the majority of his time in his

19 duties as president of the Pilica local commune, rather than with his

20 duties as a soldier in the Zvornik Brigade. However, to be clear, all the

21 time from his mobilisation in 1992 until demobilisation in March 1996,

22 Mr. Petrovic was a soldier of the Zvornik Brigade.

23 Moving on now to the core of his testimony. In July 1995 Mr.

24 Petrovic still held his position as president of the local commune.

25 Around St. Peter's day, 12 July 1995, he was at home in Pilica on leave.

Page 8542

1 On a day around St. Peter's day Mr. Petrovic met a woman near the Kula

2 school in Pilica. The woman approached him and told him that she had been

3 told that if possible all the children in homes near the school should be

4 moved away because prisoners would be brought there, and that children

5 should not look at that and shouldn't gather around the school.

6 Mr. Petrovic then spoke with a soldier a little bit further down

7 the road, still near the Pilica school. Mr. Petrovic knew this soldier

8 personally. And his name was Slavko Peric. Slavko Peric was a member of

9 the 1st Infantry Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade. This was around 10 or

10 11.00 a.m., approximately. Mr. Petrovic asked Mr. Peric if he knew what

11 was going on. Peric told Mr. Petrovic that the battalion command, his

12 battalion command had just received a telegram and that the premises

13 should be made ready to receive prisoners, that the premises should be

14 prepared.

15 Mr. Petrovic understood this to mean the premises of the school --

16 Kula school, as that was the only facility there which would accommodate

17 prisoners. Mr. Petrovic asked Slavko Peric who had signed this telegram

18 and Peric responded that he did not know.

19 After this conversation Mr. Petrovic proceeded to his office,

20 located at Pilica Dom. Shortly thereafter he met some local villagers who

21 also asked him to find out what was going on around the school. The

22 telephone lines were temporarily down at this time, so Mr. Petrovic

23 decided to go to Sepak to make a call from the home of Jovo Ivanovic.

24 Jovo Ivanovic was an SDS member, and in his testimony Mr. Petrovic did not

25 recall precisely what his working position was in July of 1995.

Page 8543

1 And at Jovo Ivanovic's house the witness used the telephone to

2 call the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade. Mr. Petrovic then spoke

3 directly with the Zvornik Brigade duty officer at the time, Dragan Jokic.

4 Mr. Petrovic personally knew Dragan Jokic from work they had done

5 together in 1992 and 1993, when Dragan Jokic and his unit had built roads

6 in the Pilica commune. Mr. Petrovic testified that he had a high opinion

7 of Dragan Jokic.

8 During this telephone call Dragan Jokic introduced himself by

9 saying, "This is Dragan Jokic." Stated that he was the duty officer, and

10 Mr. Petrovic also recognised his voice. The conversation they had was

11 brief. The witness asked Jokic what was going on in Pilica and whether it

12 was true that the prisoners were coming. Dragan Jokic told Mr. Petrovic

13 that this was none of his concern and that he should mind his own

14 business.

15 Again, Mr. Petrovic is not sure of the exact date of this

16 conversation, but knows and testified that it was sometime around St.

17 Peter's day, meaning the 12th of July, 1995.

18 Mr. Petrovic then returned to Pilica with some villagers who had

19 brought him to Sepak. They discussed what to do and ultimately decided

20 that there was nothing they could do, and that the question of prisoners

21 being brought to the Kula school in Pilica was out of their hands. After

22 returning from Sepak Mr. Petrovic passed the Kula school in Pilica and saw

23 about 20 buses parked by the school. There were prisoners on the buses.

24 Soldiers were guarding the prisoners. The soldiers stood in front of and

25 around the buses. Mr. Petrovic assumed that these prisoners were from

Page 8544

1 Srebrenica.

2 He went home for a little while and then left to walk towards his

3 office in the Dom. At the Kula school, as he passed by, he saw that the

4 prisoners were there still, and he spent about 30 minutes at the school.

5 He could hear voices in the school corridors, though the prisoners

6 remained on the buses while Mr. Petrovic was present. He then proceeded

7 to his office.

8 The following day Mr. Petrovic went to Zvornik on business. On

9 the way back from Zvornik, around the area of the Kiseljacki road, he

10 noticed a column of five to six buses headed in the direction of Zvornik.

11 Mr. Petrovic testified he assumed these were prisoners from the Kula

12 school being transferred and he testified that the location was

13 approximately where the Kozluk-Padine road forks off towards Kiseljak.

14 On his return from Zvornik Mr. Petrovic went to the Dom in Pilica

15 where his office is. Sometime before evening fell a VRS soldier came and

16 asked him for the key for the big community hall in the Dom. And the

17 community hall, as he testified, is directly behind his office. This

18 soldier told Mr. Petrovic to unlock the hall so the prisoners could be put

19 there. Mr. Petrovic told the soldier he did not have the key, it was then

20 in the possession of an employee or employees of Agroprom. The soldier

21 then asked for a wrench or a hammer so that he could open the door anyway,

22 and Mr. Petrovic told him that he did not have one.

23 Soon he saw buses full of men arriving at the Dom. The buses

24 parked on the Dom-Kosa road, and the prisoners began to disembark and went

25 towards the hall. Mr. Petrovic then left and went to a restaurant across

Page 8545

1 the road from the Dom. At the restaurant he asked the owner to go and buy

2 some bread for the prisoners. He then went to another restaurant and

3 again asked this owner to procure bread for the prisoners.

4 Mr. Petrovic went to his office and later bread was brought to the

5 Dom and he asked one of the guards to give the bread to the prisoners.

6 Mr. Petrovic then went back to the restaurant and then began to go home.

7 He was tired and a local policeman saw him and said you should go

8 home. Mr. Petrovic told the policeman he did not want to walk by the Kula

9 school, and the policeman stopped a passing car and told the driver to

10 give Mr. Petrovic a ride home by a different route.

11 Mr. Petrovic stayed home for the next two days, coming back to his

12 in the Dom on Monday morning, so the Monday after St. Peter's day. At the

13 Dom, directly in front of the community hall, he saw a truck with soldiers

14 standing around it. The soldiers were loading the corpses of people who

15 had been killed into the truck. A few days later Mr. Petrovic heard local

16 people saying that these corpses were buried at the Branjevo farm.

17 That concludes the summary.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have questions for the witness?

19 MR. NICHOLLS: I was just going to ask.

20 Q. Witness, you've heard my summary. Is it correct to the best -- as

21 you recall, of what's contained in your transcript?

22 A. Yes, those events and that's what I remember.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: No questions at this time, Your Honour.


25 MR. NICHOLLS: I pass him to my colleagues.

Page 8546

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Nicholls.

2 I have on my list the Popovic team. Go ahead, Mr. Zivanovic.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Let's clarify something that my learned friend

5 already asked you about. You just said to us that you saw, by the school

6 in Kula, about 20 buses with people on them who use supposed were from

7 Srebrenica. And then you said that you went home after that and that upon

8 your return you saw again some buses and some people on the buses.

9 I understood it to be that upon your return you heard that there

10 were already some prisoners in the school. In other words, that in the

11 meantime, while you were gone, some people had been taken off buses and

12 put in the school?

13 A. On my return from home to the school I heard voices in the

14 school. That's what it was. And it's true that I saw the buses parked

15 in front of the school building.

16 Q. My second question is this: On the following day you went to

17 Zvornik, among other places?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you said that upon your return you saw five to six buses going

20 from Pilica in the direction of Zvornik. You said to my learned friend

21 that this was the intersection going from Kozluk to Padine and so on. I

22 wanted to remind you of your previous testimony in the Blagojevic and

23 Jokic case, where a map was shown to you. You pointed out the village of

24 Rocevici on that map. Can you confirm that?

25 A. Well, the village of Rocevici was on the map, and before that

Page 8547

1 village, in the direction of Kiseljak there was a village of Padine and in

2 my mind, Padine is linked to Rocevici. This two places are linked.

3 Q. At any rate you saw this convoy of five to six buses near

4 Rocevici?

5 A. No, no, no. After Rocevici on the way to Zvornik.

6 Q. But on the map you showed Rocevici?

7 A. Well, when asked where Rocevici was, I pointed out where Rocevici

8 was.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, those of us following the proceedings in

10 English can feel the stress in the interpreter's voice in trying to catch

11 up with you. Witness and Mr. Zivanovic, please allow a pause between

12 question and answer, allowing the interpreters to translate to us in

13 English and French, otherwise there will be stuff missing in the

14 transcript, and that's not fair. So go ahead.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will just switch to English channel to avoid

16 this.

17 Q. [Interpretation] I saw -- well, yes, in fact you did show this,

18 but I will not go into that. On that occasion you also said that the --

19 that there had been people on the buses that you had seen people on those

20 buses in the five or six buses, let me be quite clear?

21 A. It was quite unusual for me to see this convoy of vehicles, and I

22 felt that if they were heading to Zvornik I had this idea in my mind that

23 these people were being taken from Pilica back to Zvornik, and I saw that

24 there were people, but I wasn't able to tell who they were, but my idea

25 was that these people who could not be put in Pilica were then taken back

Page 8548

1 to Zvornik.

2 Q. You concluded that on the bases of the similarity of the buses

3 that were used for the other people that you saw up there, so the buses,

4 the two sets of buses were similar?

5 A. Well, yes. As far as I can remember they were quite similar.

6 There were no major differences. I don't know what the colour was of

7 those buses, red, yellow, blue, but they were similar.

8 Q. Thank you. You said, among other things, that you saw on that

9 day, on one of those days, before those prisoners were brought in, that

10 you saw Slavko Peric, a person by the name of Slavko Peric. Now, my

11 question to you is, did you see this person later on while the prisoners

12 were there in the school, so from the moment when the prisoners were

13 brought in and later on?

14 A. A couple of hours before they were brought in from Zvornik, I saw

15 Slavko Peric and, since I did not really spend time around the school, I

16 cannot remember. I mean, it is impossible for me to say that.

17 Q. Did you see him on the day when you saw the bodies being loaded?

18 A. I can't remember.

19 Q. Thank you. One more thing. In the transcript that I read, I saw

20 that a good portion of that transcript was devoted to your correcting the

21 statement that you had given to the Prosecution earlier. Four to five

22 pages were devoted to this effort. You spoke in some detail about what

23 was missing or what was incorrect in the statement that you had given. So

24 you made quite a lot of corrections. Is my question to you is, before you

25 testified, had you have the occasion to actually see this statement in

Page 8549

1 B/C/S, that's what we call the Serbo-Croatian language here. So did you

2 have occasion to read the statement in this language?

3 A. I don't understand, what corrections to what statement?

4 Q. Let me try and remind you. You testified before this Tribunal in

5 December 2003. One year before that you gave a statement to the Office of

6 the Prosecutor. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes, I gave a statement, but this person was not introduced to

8 me as a representative of the Prosecutor's office. I gave a statement,

9 but this person did not specify that she is from the Office of the

10 Prosecutor. This was an informal conversation, and some notes were taken

11 by this person, and the corrections related to some elements in the -- in

12 the translation, and some terms were used in the B/C/S language that I

13 complained about, wrong word for "shop" was used.

14 Q. Well, you made quite a lot of corrections, four or five pages of

15 the corrections?

16 A. I don't really think it's four or five pages.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrovic, you are moving too fast. After

18 Mr. Zivanovic has finished putting his question, allow a short pause, and

19 then you start giving your answer.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, and I stand corrected.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

22 Mr. Zivanovic.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So if I understand you correctly, until the time when you came

25 here to testify, you did not have the statement in its written form in

Page 8550

1 Serbo Croatian language?

2 A. Until I arrived here in The Hague, yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

5 Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We better make this clear. When you say "until the

7 time when you came here to testify," you're referring to the previous

8 time, not this time?

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was referring to the previous

10 testimony in 2003.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how we took it, we just wanted a confirmation

12 of that.

13 Go ahead. No further questions, Mr. Zivanovic. I have on my list

14 Defence team for Mr. -- Colonel Beara. Mr. Meek.

15 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, we have no questions for

16 this witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

18 I have Ms. Nikolic for Drago Nikolic.

19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

20 morning.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Petrovic.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. I will ask you a couple of questions so I can understand better

25 the events that you are testifying about. If I understand you correctly,

Page 8551

1 in this period, in July 1995, you were the president of the local commune

2 in Pilica?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. At the same time you were mobilised?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You were a member of the 1st Battalion in the logistics platoon.

7 Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, 1st Battalion, but logistics platoon, I'm not quite sure

9 about that. This changed a lot. I would be in the 1st Company and then

10 I would be put in the 2nd Company, then I would be in the guards detail,

11 then logistics platoon. It would change, the commander would just put

12 me where there was need for people. But at that time I was resubordinated

13 to a unit that was at the Misic [phoen] plateau. So that was at the very

14 front-line.

15 Q. So you were a soldier throughout this period?

16 A. Yes, I fought.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's reply was inaudible.

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Let me go back to what you testified in the Blagojevic case.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Because I have on my transcript, "the

21 witness's reply was inaudible," but still we have the answer, "Yes, I

22 fought."

23 Did you say anything else apart from, "Yes, I fought"? The

24 question that was put to you by Ms. Nikolic was, "So you were a soldier

25 throughout this period." Then what we have in the transcript is, "Yes, I

Page 8552

1 fought." Then I have the interpreter note, "the witness's reply was

2 inaudible." Do you wish to add anything to your answer, "Yes, I

3 fought"?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In fact what I said was I was

5 resubordinated to a unit that was deployed at the front-line at the Nisic

6 plateau at the time of the events in Pilica, and before that I was

7 supposed to go there yet I didn't. I was given leave not to go because of

8 the situation in my family, and my brother, who was the commander in the

9 unit, gave me a leave of absence, so I was at home in this period. But

10 I -- according to my file, I was at this unit that was deployed at the

11 Nisic plateau.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic.

13 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. I would now like to go back to the events that you describe in

15 your testimony in the Blagojevic and Jokic case that was summarised by my

16 friend at the Prosecution. At the time when you met Mr. Peric, you

17 telephoned and you went back, that's when you saw the buses in front of

18 the school and you stayed there for maybe 30 minutes. Am I right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were there any soldiers around those buses, or, in fact, on the

21 buses guarding the prisoners?

22 A. Yes. Around the buses.

23 Q. Did you know these people?

24 A. As far as I can remember, I didn't know most of them.

25 Q. So we can agree that they were not from your battalion in the

Page 8553

1 Zvornik Brigade?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, let us move on to Monday. You spent, if I'm not

4 mistaken, Friday, you spent Friday, Saturday and Sunday home, you did not

5 pass through Pilica on those days?

6 A. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, until Monday, but it's possible that I

7 was there on Friday. But Saturday and Sunday until Monday, I was not

8 there.

9 Q. Did you have any phone calls, did anyone call you, anyone -- any

10 of the locals to ask you what was going on?

11 A. You mean at home?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. No, I didn't have a phone line installed in my home at that

14 time.

15 Q. When you came to work on Monday, and when you described the

16 situation that you described in your statement, can you please tell me, do

17 you know who took the people from the school, who executed them, and where

18 they were executed?

19 A. Well, no. I was not able to see the actual execution, and I

20 didn't see the events around the school. So I cannot tell you that

21 because I was at home at that time. So the very act, I have no knowledge

22 of it.

23 Q. No knowledge of it, okay.

24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

25 Your Honours.

Page 8554

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Nikolic.

2 According to our records, the Borovcanin team --

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: We have no questions for cross-examination.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for confirming that.

5 Madam Fauveau for General Miletic, go ahead.

6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions. Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And according to our records also the

8 Gvero Defence team doesn't wish to cross-examine this witness.

9 MR. JOSSE: That's right.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Josse.

11 And we have an indication that the Pandurevic Defence team wishes

12 to cross-examine this witness.

13 MR. HAYNES: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, Mr. Haynes.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

16 Q. You have mentioned that at the time of the events that have been

17 described you were not, as it were, actively employed as a soldier because

18 you were given compassionate leave. Is it also the case that you were

19 permitted, from time to time, to avoid service as a soldier because of

20 your job as chairman of the local commune?

21 A. In that period I think that I never asked the commander of the

22 Nisic plateau unit to take me to the unit, and I -- I felt quite

23 comfortable, because he had allowed me to go, because the local battalion

24 troops, as a rule, should not actually give me any orders. As I already

25 said, I spent 90 per cent of my time in the local commune and only 10 per

Page 8555

1 cent in -- in the ranks. But in 1992, 1993, 1994, and then in 1995, in

2 fact, I couldn't say anymore that I spent more time in the local commune

3 premises than in the army.

4 In 1995 I would often go in the field with some other units. I

5 was not in my original unit, and I was -- I had stronger links with the

6 unit at that time. Because the battalion commander decided that I was

7 needed there, and I would spend time in the local commune when I had some

8 days off, or if there was any need, any immediate need for me to do so.

9 Q. Thank you. Another topic, please. Was it your understanding of

10 the position that Pilica village was outside the zone of defence of the

11 1st Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade?

12 A. No, to my knowledge, to my understanding, the 1st Infantry

13 Battalion did have its area of responsibility in Pilica because we were in

14 the Zvornik area, which included Pilica.

15 Q. Moving on. The two premises you have described, the Kula school

16 and the Pilica cultural centre, were they buildings for which you, as

17 chairman of the local commune, had responsibility?

18 A. No. Well, the president of the local commune has no

19 responsibility over buildings. The school has its principal, has the

20 relevant institutions in charge of the school, and the president of the

21 local commune can go into the school when he is invited by the responsible

22 person; in this case, that would be the principal.

23 As far as the cultural centre is concerned, it was property of

24 Agroprom Zvornik; they had their management, they had their manager. As

25 regards the local commune office, I knew at the time, and I know now that

Page 8556

1 this was the property of the Zvornik municipality. On the basis of all

2 this I can say here that the activities of the local commune, that, in

3 fact, what we did was we tried to figure out who actually owned the

4 cultural centre and I asked this question as the deputy in the Zvornik

5 municipal assembly, I think it was in 1996, and the answer I got was that

6 the cultural centre should be placed at the disposal of the local

7 communes. Unfortunately the cultural centre in Pilica is now the subject

8 of a legal suit between Agroprom and the municipality. But to cut a long

9 story short, the local commune had no responsibility, was not in charge of

10 the school or of the cultural centre except in -- it had nothing to do

11 with the actual buildings, except when the local commune had the use of

12 some buildings that actually belonged to the municipality.

13 Q. Well, let's leave the cultural centre to one side. But so far as

14 the property of the local commune was concerned, municipal authority, if

15 the army wished to use municipal property it would obtain a requisitioning

16 order, wouldn't it?

17 A. Well, I don't understand your question. Because that has to do

18 with the military system. I don't know how the military could obtain

19 premises. I just don't understand your question.

20 Q. Well, the point of the question is, if the army wished to use

21 municipal property, such as the school, an order was served upon you, as

22 the president of the local commune, saying that that property was

23 requisitioned for the purposes of the army, wasn't it?

24 A. No. No. The local battalion command would probably put in a

25 request through its superior command for the premises; that would be the

Page 8557

1 brigade command, and then the brigade command would have to talk to the

2 municipality. But the local commune, you have to understand, had no power

3 to give anyone to give anything to anyone regarding any premises. First

4 of all, you would have to go to the school, to the principal, to ask for

5 the use of the school, and in case of the cultural centre you would have

6 to address the manager of Agroprom. So they had no call to talk to the

7 local commune at all.

8 Q. So if I understand the position, it would be the municipal

9 authority that would receive an order requisitioning the school, rather

10 than the local commune?

11 A. Well, I assume that that's how it should be. But I'm not sure

12 whether the military would go directly to the school principal or to the

13 municipality. I can't know that. I don't know what the military would

14 do. All I know is that there was no need for them to talk to me or to the

15 local commune regarding those premises.

16 Q. Thank you. One last thing. You are aware of the existence of

17 Branjevo Farm, aren't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. There are two enterprises at Branjevo Farm, one operated by the

20 army, and the other operated by a private company. That's correct, isn't

21 it?

22 A. Well, I can't tell you whether that is correct or not, but I do

23 know that there was a farm there before the war. I think that the owners

24 were from Nova Selo, that was a state-owned company. And during the war I

25 think that Agroprom actually was in charge of this farm. They ran it.

Page 8558

1 Not some private company. And the agreement was, this is what I learned,

2 with Agroprom, to allow the military to do some things there to grow some

3 vegetables for their needs. But this was not privately owned. I don't

4 know where you get your information. Because at that time there were no

5 privately owned businesses.

6 Q. It's probably my mistake, but Agroprom did not give over the whole

7 farm to the military, did it?

8 A. Well, I don't really know that. I don't know how much of the farm

9 was given over to the army by Agroprom, but I know that some people went

10 there to work, and they were in the army. But I assume that the army

11 controlled some parts of this farm, and that this had, in fact, been

12 handed over to the army by Agroprom.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That concludes the cross-examination.

15 Mr. Nicholls, do you have any re-examination?

16 MR. NICHOLLS: I do not, Your Honours. Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrovic, your testimony finishes here. On

18 behalf of the Trial Chamber I would like to thank you for having come over

19 to give evidence. Our staff will give you all the assistance you need to

20 facilitate your return back home. And we all wish you a safe journey back

21 home.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

24 MR. BOURGON: It's a matter unrelated to the witness, just before

25 the break, that I would like to raise.

Page 8559

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Exhibits.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I think the sheet has been distributed. None of

3 them need to be under seal. They would be the same ones I read out at the

4 beginning, plus the witness's 92 ter testimony.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections on the part of any of the Defence

6 teams?

7 Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not see the

9 list, so I can't really say. Can the Prosecutor provide us with a list?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Hasn't the list been provided?

11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We did not get the list,

12 Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's postpone this until after the

14 break.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: I might be able to clear it up. It is exactly the

16 same list that was e-mailed to you of exhibits that would be used with the

17 witness. There is nothing different from the list that was sent out of

18 all the exhibits attached to this witness, including his transcript, which

19 was provided.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Then I am against Exhibit 1161,

22 because it is an intercept. So for the time being, I believe this

23 document should not be tendered into evidence. It only should be marked

24 for identification purposes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You can take that for granted in

Page 8560

1 relation to all intercepts. We'll only mark them for identification

2 purposes. Otherwise, any objections?

3 Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I join the

5 objection raised by my colleague, Madam Fauveau, and also this intercept

6 was also -- only shown to the witness in the course of the

7 cross-examination in the Blagojevic/Jokic case and this was not tendered

8 by the Defence, and the same thing goes for Exhibit 08102 [as

9 interpreted], that's a letter by a member of the Ministry of the

10 Interior. It's addressed to a totally different person, so this witness

11 had no knowledge of it and he did not participate in the drafting of this

12 document. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, it's -- 0082 and 1161 were used by the

14 witness, or were used with the witness during his previous testimony.

15 That's how I understand it.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: That's correct, Your Honour. And that's why they

17 were offered. They were used in cross-examination of his previous

18 testimony by Mr. -- well, it doesn't matter, but they were used. If the

19 Court's going to follow the testimony, I think it's important to have

20 them. They're not something I would have put in, in my direct, and I

21 didn't. But they are part of the record, and that's the practice we've

22 been using. The intercept in question will be marked for identification

23 and has been dealt with otherwise, anyway, and the letter was used,

24 questions were put to the witness based on this letter, so I honestly

25 don't understand the objection.

Page 8561

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We have seen the transcript. Any objections?

2 Yes -- no, no, that is a mistake. In line 24 of the previous page, page

3 37, it's Exhibit 08102, I take it you were referring to 0082.

4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understood you, because that is the

6 letter from --

7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honours, correct.

8 And another sentence in relation to intercept 161 [as interpreted]. This

9 intercept was perhaps relevant in the Blagojevic/Jokic case. This witness

10 did not participate in this intercept. I mean the witness who was here

11 today. Now, it was General Zivanovic and Major Jokic who were

12 participants in that intercepts -- in that intercept and I believe that

13 intercept is not relevant for us in this case.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It is part and parcel of the testimony of the

15 witness in the previous case, so ...

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: As we have stated on several previous occasions, the

18 questions of relevance will be dealt with later on, and the transcript of

19 his previous testimony would not be intelligible in the absence of these

20 documents.

21 Still the intercept, of course, will be marked for identification.

22 Any further objections? We hear none. So the rest is admitted.

23 Mr. Bourgon.

24 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Before we go for the

25 break I would like to return to what I said just before the beginning of

Page 8562

1 the testimony of this witness. And I take this opportunity to apologise

2 to my colleagues from the Prosecution. I've just been shown a second

3 e-mail which I missed in which we were given information that these

4 documents were uploaded into e-court. So I apologise to my colleagues

5 from the Prosecution. Sorry. Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can close that chapter, and move ahead.

7 So we will have a 25-minute break and then we will start the -- with

8 witness -- the testimony of Witness number 86, who I hope has been advised

9 that we won't finish with him today. Or very unlikely that we will do.

10 All right. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to

17 start giving evidence. Before you do so, you are required to make an

18 undertaking, take -- make an undertaking with us that you will be

19 testifying the truth. Miss -- Madam Usher is going to hand to you the

20 text of the solemn declaration. Please stand up, read it out aloud, and

21 that will be your undertaking with us.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 8563

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself

2 comfortable. Before you start giving evidence, I wanted to confirm to

3 you that we have, at the request of the Prosecution, put in place for you

4 two protective measures, namely the use of a pseudonym instead of your

5 name, and you will be given a number, and also facial distortion. I

6 suppose these have been explained to you. I just want to have a

7 confirmation from you that you are happy with these -- with this

8 arrangement.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I don't suppose we will finish with your

11 testimony today. We will make an effort. If we don't, we will then

12 continue on Monday.

13 Mr. Thayer will go first with his examination-in-chief. And then

14 he will be followed by the various Defence teams.

15 Mr. Thayer.

16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President, and good morning to you,

17 and Your Honours. Good morning everyone.

18 Examination by Mr. Thayer:

19 Q. Good morning, sir.

20 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I think a warning from the Bench with

21 respect to this witness would be appropriate, given our past practise,

22 before we go any further.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection to the use of the word "warning,"

24 Mr. Bourgon?

25 MR. BOURGON: If the Prosecution feels it needs to warn its own

Page 8564

1 witnesses, none, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Witness, you would have certainly

3 followed what Mr. Thayer has just stated. In the experience of this

4 Tribunal sometimes questions are put to witnesses which, if answered,

5 could possibly at least in the mind of the witness himself, or herself,

6 expose him or her to criminal proceedings. We have a Rule that seeks to

7 protect witnesses from incriminating themselves, which is one of the

8 principles enshrined in our Statutes and our Rules. So if, at any time,

9 questions are put to you which, in your opinion, if answered, would --

10 could possibly expose you to criminal proceedings, then you may object to

11 answer such questions; however, this is not an absolute right. You may

12 object. You may ask us, in other words, to exempt you from answering the

13 question, but we may decide that it is in the interests of justice to

14 compel you to give -- to answer such questions. If we do compel you to

15 answer such questions, then you have a guarantee, according to our law, or

16 Rules, that any testimony that you would be giving because you are

17 compelled to, shall not be used as evidence in any subsequent prosecution

18 against you for any offence, except if you are prosecuted for false

19 testimony, for perjury. Is that clear? Do you require further

20 explanation from me?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not require any additional

22 explanations. It is clear to me.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, sir. Mr. Thayer will go first,

24 as I have already explained. Mr. Thayer.

25 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 8565

1 Q. Witness, good morning to you. You are being handed a piece of --

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. You're being handed a piece of paper, and I would just ask you to

4 read it to yourself and if you would, confirm that your name is written on

5 that paper beside the pseudonym PW-160.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And for the record, the pseudonym sheet is P02473.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And although you have not indicated this, this will

9 be kept under seal.

10 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. And if we may move into

11 private session for --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's move into private session for a

13 short while.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8566











11 Pages 8566-8569 redacted. Private session















Page 8570

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Thayer.


5 Q. Sir, I would just like to ask you a couple of questions to help

6 explain a little bit about the structure of the special police brigade.

7 Can you just tell the Trial Chamber, please, how was it organised and

8 structured?

9 A. The special police brigade had headquarters in Ilajnik [phoen].

10 It had nine detachments deployed throughout the Republika Srpska, it had a

11 training centre at Jahorina, and a unit of police dogs, and I don't

12 remember where it was headquartered. I think that within the headquarters

13 there existed also a mixed anti-armour artillery battalion, but it was

14 attached to the headquarters, to the command. That was the structure of

15 the special police brigade, how it was organised.

16 The detachments were deployed to Trebinje, Foca, Jahorina,

17 Sekovici, Janja, Doboj, Banja Luka, and Prijedor.

18 Q. Just two quick follow-up questions, sir. The -- I see the

19 transcript didn't catch the location of the headquarters. If you would,

20 would you just please restate where the headquarters were located?

21 A. The detachments were deployed to Trebinje, Foca, Jahorina,

22 Sekovici, Janja, Doboj, Banja Luka, and Prijedor.

23 Q. I'm sorry, I wasn't clear in my question. You mentioned the

24 actual headquarters of the special police brigade itself. I don't think

25 the transcript caught it. Can you just restate the location of the actual

Page 8571

1 headquarters of the entire brigade? Where was that located?

2 A. The headquarters was located in Janja, which is a village near

3 Bijeljina, some 12 kilometres from Bijeljina. It was in a settlement of

4 weekend cottages in a motel near the Drina River.

5 Q. Okay. And the detachments that you just described, Janja, Doboj,

6 Sekovici, were those the actual bases of those detachments or where they

7 were billeted? Just so the record is clear.

8 A. They were actually located there.

9 Q. And again, just briefly, sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber what

10 the basic function of the special police brigade was during the war?

11 A. It was a combat brigade during the war.

12 Q. Now, sir, was there a difference between the Jahorina members who

13 were being trained in the summer of 1995 and the regular special brigade

14 members from these various detachments that you've described?

15 A. Yes. There was a difference. On the one hand we had regular

16 members who had experienced some combat action, whereas the other ones had

17 been captured as deserters. They fled from their positions, and then they

18 were deployed to Jahorina to the training centre there.

19 Q. Now, the Trial Chamber has previously heard reference to units of

20 the special police brigade as opposed to units of what are referred to as

21 the PJP or separate police. Can you just explain the difference as simply

22 as you can?

23 A. Well, the difference is in that the special police brigade was a

24 combat unit, and it mostly was assigned combat assignments. As for the

25 PJP units, they were regular police forces which belonged to public

Page 8572

1 security centres, and they performed police duties at the public security

2 stations and police stations, they were organised in companies, and they

3 also had reserve forces within those companies. I don't know exactly how

4 many companies each centre had.

5 Q. Now, you mentioned a little while ago a Mr. Saric. Can you tell

6 the Trial Chamber to whom Mr. Saric reported?

7 A. Deputy minister and minister were his superiors. Minister of the

8 interior. If the minister was absent, then deputy minister was his

9 superior.

10 Q. And in July of 1995, sir, do you know the names of those two

11 people, the minister and deputy minister?

12 A. I know that the minister came from Novi Grad, I don't remember his

13 name. Or perhaps he was from Bosanski Novi. As for the deputy minister,

14 it was Mr. Tomo Kovac.

15 Q. I want to turn your attention now to July of 1995. Do you know

16 approximately when the deserters arrived for training at the Jahorina

17 facility?

18 A. I don't know the exact date, but I think that it was a couple of

19 months before the events in the Srebrenica area. Some two and a half to

20 three months prior to that.

21 Q. And what type of formations were they organised into?

22 A. They were organised in two companies. The companies had platoons.

23 As far as I remember, they had two or three platoons. I think three

24 platoons each. They numbered some 200-odd men.

25 Q. And is that total therefore 100 men per company?

Page 8573

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did each company have a commander, sir? And if so, who were

3 those commanders?

4 A. Companies had komandirs or commanders. The commander of the first

5 company was Djuric Mendeljejev, and the second one was commanded by Dzedzo

6 [phoen] Ikonic.

7 Q. At some point in early July 1995, sir, did you receive an order

8 concern ago company of the Jahorina training centre?

9 A. On the 11th of July, Mr. Borovcanin came to Jahorina telling us

10 that we had been issued an order to go to Bratunac, that a company was

11 supposed to go to execute assignments there, and that I had to be in

12 Bratunac by 1500 hours, and that I would receive further orders there. I

13 think that he even showed me the order issued by Mr. Tomislav Kovac.

14 Q. And if we may have 65 ter number 94 displayed on e-court, please.

15 Just asking you if you see a document on your screen, sir.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And do you recognise what that is?

18 A. This is the order.

19 Q. If you would, sir, would you just read paragraphs 2 and 3 aloud.

20 A. 1, 2, and 3?

21 Q. Just 2 and 3 is fine, sir. Thank you.

22 A. "The second special detachment of police from Sekovici, the 1st

23 Company of PJP of the public security centre in Zvornik mixed company of

24 joint forces of the MUP of Republika Srpska --"

25 THE INTERPRETER: Of the RSK, interpreter's correction.

Page 8574

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "-- of Serbia and Republika Srpska

2 and a company from the training centre in Jahorina are to become part of

3 the unit."

4 Item 3, "I designate Ljubisa Borovcanin, deputy commander of the

5 special police brigade, as the commander of the MUP unit."

6 Q. Can you see, sir, who issued this order?

7 A. The staff commander, Tomislav Kovac. It says here, "staff

8 commander, Tomislav Kovac." I know that at the time Mr. Kovac was deputy

9 minister.

10 Q. If we may just scroll up a bit, please, Madam Usher.

11 And do you see a date on this order, sir?

12 A. 10th of July, 1995.

13 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what, if anything, you did as a

14 result of receiving this order from Mr. Borovcanin?

15 A. The company got ready, and we travelled to Bratunac. In Bratunac

16 we got in touch with Mr. Borovcanin, and we were told that we were to be

17 housed --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection to the

20 form of the question. Because it says here when you received the order

21 from Mr. Borovcanin, and in his previous answer the witness indicated that

22 this order had been issued by Mr. Tomislav Kovac. So this could actually

23 mislead us all in terms of who actually issued this order.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We can see it clear enough, Tomislav Kovac had

25 issued the order that was shown to the witness by -- according to him,

Page 8575

1 Ljubomir Borovcanin, who ordered him to report as he testified before. So

2 we have got two orders. One to Borovcanin and one to the witness. The

3 one to the witness is from Borovcanin according to him, and not directly

4 from, so I think it's clear enough. We can proceed, Mr. Thayer.

5 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Sir, you were answering the question, what if anything you did as

7 a result of receiving the order from Mr. Borovcanin. And you had just

8 said that you had -- "we had gotten in touch with Mr. Borovcanin upon

9 arrival in Bratunac."

10 A. Yes, we were given an order to -- that we were to be billeted

11 in the village of Bilosevac, I don't remember the exact name of the

12 village, in a school when we got there, I think that our quarters were

13 already ready, and then we were -- I was supposed to await further orders

14 there.

15 Q. And let me just stop you right there, sir, and ask a couple of

16 follow-up questions.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could ask him to repeat the name of the

18 village because it doesn't show up in the transcript, please.

19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. You referred to the village where you were accommodated. Could

21 you restate the name as you remember it?

22 A. As far as I remember, it was Bjelosevac or Bjelovac. Something

23 like. I can't really recall the name anymore.

24 Q. Can I tell the --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record the second name mentioned was

Page 8576

1 Bjelovac because it doesn't show up in the transcript either. So I think

2 we can proceed now.


4 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber which company of the deserters from

5 Jahorina travelled to Bratunac?

6 A. The 1st Company.

7 Q. And did their company commander travel with them?

8 A. Yes, I think he did.

9 Q. And that was Mr. Djuric; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you describe the uniforms that the Jahorina members were

12 wearing?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Kwon and myself are thinking of the same thing

14 at the same time. Mr. Thayer, I need your guidance here. Lines 12 to 16

15 and possibly even 17 and 18, do you think it's safe to keep them in open

16 session or ...

17 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I do. I recognise it's -- it's a --

18 something of a tight-rope. The vast, vast majority of the testimony would

19 be in private session if we were to continue on -- on that line. I

20 recognise the ...

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If you think it's safe, let's proceed.

22 MR. THAYER: It's okay. I have given thought to it, and I think

23 we can err on this side. Thank you for the intervention.

24 Q. Sir, can you describe the uniforms worn by the Jahorina members?

25 A. Well, they had camouflage uniforms that were different from those

Page 8577

1 worn by the other members of the special police brigade and of the

2 police. It was camouflage, I can't really describe the colours to you,

3 but it was different from the special police brigade members.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that the witness said, "two-piece

6 uniform," which I cannot find in transcript.


8 Do you confirm that, Witness? Did you say a two-piece uniform?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, yes, it was a

10 two-piece uniform.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Still camouflage?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.


15 Q. Just to be clear, the two-piece uniform you recall being worn by

16 the Jahorina members, correct?

17 A. As far as I remember, yes.

18 Q. And the regular special police brigade members, as opposed to the

19 Jahorina members, do you recall what types of uniforms they wore?

20 A. Well, the regular special police brigade members had boiler suits

21 and they also had camouflage uniforms, but of a different colour.

22 Q. And by boiler suits, we're talking about cover-alls or overalls;

23 is that correct? A one-piece suit?

24 A. Yes, it was a one-piece suit. We use this term, kombinezon,

25 overalls, but the special brigade also had some two-piece uniforms.

Page 8578

1 Q. What type of weapons were the Jahorina members carrying, sir?

2 A. Well, members of the Jahorina unit carried only automatic rifles.

3 They did not have any side arms, and they had some protective equipment,

4 bullet-proof vests that were blue. I think they were made in Israel.

5 They did not have -- they only had Kevlar plates, not armoured plates.

6 Q. Did the Jahorina unit have any armoured vehicles or tanks or any

7 of that type of equipment?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And how about other detachments of the special police brigade, did

10 they have tanks?

11 A. Some units did have tanks.

12 Q. And do you recall which units had tanks, sir?

13 A. The 2nd detachment from Sekovici had tanks.

14 Q. And did any of the units have what are sometimes referred to as a

15 BOV or three-barreled armoured vehicle, combat vehicle?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall which detachments had those vehicles?

18 A. Well, as far as I remember, the Sekovici unit had them. I don't

19 know if there were any other units that have them -- that had them, I

20 don't know which ones had them, but quite a few units did.

21 Q. And back to the uniforms again, just for a second. Did the

22 Jahorina uniforms have any insignia on them?

23 A. They did not have any insignia. Or rather they did not have any

24 insignia on them.

25 Q. And how about the regular special police brigade members, did they

Page 8579

1 have insignia or patches on their uniforms?

2 A. The special police brigade had their insignia, worn on the

3 sleeve.

4 Q. Now, I want to focus, or refocus your attention back to Bratunac

5 on 11 July 1995, after you arrived and were accommodated. Did you meet at

6 some point with Mr. Borovcanin that day?

7 A. As far as I remember, yes.

8 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber what occurred at that

9 meeting?

10 A. Well, I was told that I should do a reconnaissance of the Potocari

11 area, the UNPROFOR base and also the access leading towards Srebrenica,

12 and after completing this reconnaissance mission I was to report to him.

13 I took some of the officers with me, and I think that we had a local

14 police officer with us. We did the reconnaissance, and I reported to

15 Mr. Borovcanin.

16 Q. Do you remember approximately what time of the day it was when you

17 conducted this reconnaissance?

18 A. I think it was just before dusk, so just before nightfall.

19 Q. And what did you report back to Mr. Borovcanin that you saw, if

20 anything?

21 A. Well, I reported to him that in the UNPROFOR base area there were

22 civilians gathering there, that there were quite a few of them, and this

23 was the gist of my report.

24 Q. And what, if anything, did Mr. Borovcanin tell you at that

25 point?

Page 8580

1 A. Well, as far as I know, that I should await further orders and

2 that I should go back to the base where we were quartered, and that I

3 should await further orders.

4 Q. Did he tell you about any meeting that was underway at the time?

5 A. I think it was in the evening, I don't know the exact time. He

6 told me that in Bratunac, I think maybe in the hotel, that there was a

7 meeting between the UNPROFOR commander, representatives of the Muslim

8 people and General Mladic, and that the fate was decided there, that

9 they -- that the civilians were to be evacuated from the Potocari area.

10 And I was also told that the representative of the Muslims had signed, had

11 allegedly signed these documents about the evacuation of the civilians

12 from the Potocari area.

13 Q. In addition to telling you this information concerning the results

14 of the meeting, sir, did Mr. Borovcanin issue you any further orders that

15 evening?

16 A. He told me that in the morning we were supposed to go into the

17 Potocari area and to secure UNPROFOR and the civilians until the beginning

18 of the evacuation.

19 Q. That brings us to the 12th of July. Would you please tell the

20 Trial Chamber simply what you did that day, starting from the beginning.

21 A. Well, early in the morning we headed out from the Yellow Bridge,

22 or, in fact, we came to the Yellow Bridge, and we headed towards

23 Potocari. To the right of the road there was the PJP unit, so the

24 Zvornik PJP unit. To the left of the road there were members of the --

25 some of the members of the deserters' unit, and along the middle of the

Page 8581

1 road there were some members heading towards the base in Potocari.

2 Q. Please continue, sir. What did you do?

3 A. Well, we reached the base, and the civilians there. We stopped

4 there, awaiting further developments. And then sometime at around

5 approximately nine or 1000 hours, Mr. Borovcanin appeared, and so did

6 General Mladic and they spoke, they were near a house. I was a little bit

7 further away from them, and I don't know what they talked about and how

8 they talked about it.

9 After that, at one point, I don't know the exact time, I was

10 ordered to transfer two platoons to the route from the part of Bratunac

11 towards Konjevic Polje to secure this route, and that another platoon was

12 to remain there because of the evacuation. At one point General Mladic

13 showed up with his escort - I don't know what time it was - and he said,

14 he asked in a taunting manner, it was a really ugly way of asking us, a

15 rude manner. This is what I've already stated. He asked, "You police

16 cunts, which one of you dares come with me to this mass of people?" So

17 this was the way he talked to us. I took Dragan Vasiljevic with me, he

18 was Mr. Borovcanin's driver. And I went to this mass of people together

19 with General Mladic. General Mladic was distributing food and talking to

20 these people. He told them to be calm, that transportation would be made

21 available and that they would leave. So he talked to them and food was

22 distributed to them.

23 At one point during this distribution of food Mr. Vaso Mijovic

24 showed up, together with his team. He was in the Serbian MUP.

25 General Mladic took some containers of juice that he had in his jeep and

Page 8582

1 he went on to distribute that to the people, to the civilians who were

2 gathered there.

3 Q. Let me stop you right there, sir. You just referred to an

4 individual and I'm not sure the transcript caught the name, first of all.

5 Can you just restate the name, please. Who showed up together, according

6 to the transcript, with his team.

7 A. He was alone. He was not with his team. Vaso Mijovic.

8 Q. And just briefly, how do you know who this individual is?

9 A. Well, in 1993 I received an order to go to Bratunac, to see what

10 was happening there, because a unit commanded by Vaso Mijovic was

11 stationed there. I think there was an attack on the Bratunac police

12 station, and I was to go there and to see what the situation was like, to

13 calm the situation, and to report back on the events. And that's how I

14 met Mr. Vaso Mijovic.

15 Q. Okay. And do you recall ever seeing this individual from this

16 time in 1993 until the 12th of July, 1995?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And you mentioned that he was not with his team. Did you see any

19 evidence or receive any reports during your time in Potocari that there

20 were any other members of any Serbian MUP units located there at the

21 time?

22 A. You mean the Republic of Serbia MUP?

23 Q. That's correct, sir.

24 A. I did not see any members of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia. I

25 did not receive any information that there had been any in the area where

Page 8583

1 I had been.

2 Q. Now, I want to go back just a little bit, sir. You just described

3 the distribution of some -- some juice and some other items to the crowd.

4 Do you remember at some point that morning actually entering the UN base

5 with a Dutch officer? And if you do, can you describe that series of

6 events for the Trial Chamber, please.

7 A. Yes, at one point Mr. Borovcanin, myself, and a member -- an

8 officer, I don't know his exact rank, we went into the UNPROFOR base and

9 we checked the situation there. We saw that there was a large number of

10 civilians there, including some injured people.

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Thayer.

12 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE KWON: Sorry to interrupt you. I like to be clarified with

14 the term "Serbian MUP." He said that he didn't see any unit, Serbian MUP

15 unit, but earlier the witness said Vaso Mijovic is a member, he was in the

16 Serbian MUP, and he -- a unit commanded Vaso Mijovic was stationed there,

17 and so on. So I was not clear about that, whether he meant, when he's

18 saying Vaso Mijovic was in the Serbian MUP, did he mean the MUP in the --

19 of the Republic of Serbia. Thank you.


21 Q. Sir, did you understand His Honour's query?

22 A. Yes, yes, I did understand the question.

23 Q. And can you just clarify whether this individual was a member of

24 the MUP of Serbia?

25 A. Well, as far as I remember, in 1993 I had information that he was

Page 8584

1 a member of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you confirm the rest, because Judge Kwon put a

4 very important question, that when you saw him on that occasion he was

5 alone and not with his team?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, on that occasion he was alone.

7 No other members were with him.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.


10 Q. Now, sir, would you take us from -- after the juices and some of

11 the food stuffs are distributed to the crowd, what do you recall happening

12 next?

13 A. Well, I think that at one point I left this location, and I went

14 to check the route where the men were being deployed, and when I reached a

15 flat area I saw --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Before you continue, because it's -- I

17 want to confirm that when Mr. -- when Judge Kwon put his question he did

18 not interrupt the sequence of your answer. At the time your question that

19 Mr. Thayer put to you was the following: "Now, I want to go back just a

20 little bit, sir. You just described the distribution of some juices and

21 some other items to the crowd. Do you remember at some point that morning

22 actually entering the UN base with a Dutch officer? And if you do, can

23 you describe the series of events for the Trial Chamber, please."

24 And you had started giving your answer. And what I'm going to ask

25 you now is to continue, finish that answer. You said, "Yes, at one point

Page 8585

1 Mr. Borovcanin, myself, and a member, an officer, I don't know his exact

2 rank, we went into the UNPROFOR base and we checked the situation there.

3 We saw that there was a large number of civilians there, including some

4 injured people."

5 What else did you have to say in answering that question?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said that we went into the

7 base with this officer of the Dutch battalion to check whether there were

8 any more civilians there and in general what was there. We saw that there

9 were civilians in a hangar and that there were some injured people there.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Thayer.

11 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. Sir, you had just started telling us about travelling to the

13 communication to which some Jahorina members had been deployed. Can you

14 please continue with that description?

15 A. Well, they were deployed, I don't know exactly what their starting

16 point was, outside of Bratunac in the direction of Konjevic Polje, and the

17 second part of the unit, I don't know when it actually arrived, was also

18 deployed around Konjevic Polje. So they hooked up. In this period I went

19 to visit those units at one point, and I saw that along this communication

20 there were some dead bodies, and I saw -- when I reached a flat area, a

21 plateau, I saw a group of civilians that had surrendered. I believe that

22 General Mladic was there, and so was Mr. Borovcanin. I was there, and so

23 on.

24 Q. You have described this area as being a flat area. Was it level

25 with the ground or not?

Page 8586

1 A. Well, as far as I remember, that was a plateau slightly raised to

2 the right side of the road when you go from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.

3 So that's how I remember this.

4 Q. And do you recall what, if anything, General Mladic did at the

5 time that you were there?

6 A. I think that he talked to them. He explained to them that they

7 would be evacuated. I don't know what else he told them. At any rate, he

8 talked to them.

9 Q. And what do you recall Mr. Borovcanin doing, if anything, while

10 you were there?

11 A. I don't remember that. I think that he was also present.

12 Q. Do you recall who was securing or guarding those prisoners at that

13 location, sir?

14 A. As far as I remember, I think it was the members from Jahorina and

15 that there were also some army soldiers. I'm sure, though, that the

16 members from Jahorina were there.

17 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you did next?

18 A. I don't know what happened to that group of civilians who were

19 there. I think that I went back to Potocari and after some time the

20 evacuation of civilians started. I stood at a position in front of the

21 UNPROFOR headquarters, instructing the buses and trucks to turn around so

22 that the civilians could go in and out. Allegedly they were supposed to

23 be evacuated and taken to Kladanj. That is to say, via Bratunac, Konjevic

24 Polje, Vlasenica, Kladanj, and as far as I was informed, UNPROFOR was

25 supposed to escort them. Whether they did it or not, I don't know.

Page 8587

1 Q. Well, sir, do you recall seeing any UNPROFOR soldiers boarding the

2 buses?

3 A. I don't remember that.

4 Q. Do you recall ever seeing any UNPROFOR vehicles accompanying the

5 buses?

6 A. I don't remember that.

7 Q. So can you describe, with some more precision, what exactly you

8 were doing at this location in front of the UN base?

9 A. Mr. Borovcanin tasked me with evacuating the civilians. As soon

10 as the buses started arriving, and the trucks, since the area was quite

11 small and there was a huge crowd of people, I attempted to ensure that the

12 civilians were evacuated as soon as possible, to the best of my

13 abilities. That's why I instructed the buses and trucks to turn around,

14 because as they arrived, civilians left the crowd in which they were, and

15 boarded the vehicles as they arrived. And then the vehicles left. I

16 don't know much about their departure. That's the job that I was doing

17 there.

18 Mostly because I saw this crowd of people assembled there, and --

19 it was difficult for me to watch that sight, and I attempted to evacuate

20 them as soon as possible. Three years ago I said to the investigator in

21 Banja Luka that I had seen a group of men who had been separated. They

22 also got into the vehicles and departed with the column. Whether they

23 were separated from the column, when, and where, I don't know about that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, did I direct your attention to lines 2

25 and 3 of this page, page 65, and I'm seeking your opinion on whether that

Page 8588

1 should be redacted or not.

2 MR. THAYER: I think we're -- I think we're safe with that,

3 Your Honour, for a couple of reasons which I don't need to discuss.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We rely on your good judgement, I mean when

5 we ask you both you and Defence teams on this, we are relying pretty much

6 on your judgement. Please proceed.

7 MR. THAYER: And I do appreciate the intervention, Your Honour.

8 Q. Now, just to make clear, sir, you referred to a group of men who

9 had been separated, and I just want to clarify: Did you see at any time

10 on the 12th of July, Muslim men being separated from their families?

11 A. I didn't, sir.

12 Q. And did you receive any reports of that happening on the 12th of

13 July?

14 A. I didn't, sir. However, I saw the column, and I could see that

15 they had been separated. They were in the column, but separated. They

16 boarded the buses and trucks separate from others.

17 Q. Did you see any civilians abused, hit, kicked, or pushed towards

18 or on to any of the buses on 12 July?

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted) I don't like to see anybody hitting anyone else. What I don't

21 want others to do unto me, I don't do unto them.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Same thing as before. Wouldn't this identify him,

23 at least to those who may have been present at the time?

24 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour. I think we need to ...

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. So let's redact, please, line 1, page

Page 8589

1 66 to the first part of second line on page 66.

2 Witness, we are -- Witness, we are trying to do our best to

3 protect your identity. So when you need to give us information which

4 would reveal your identity, even if it's to one person, ask us, draw our

5 attention to that, and we will go into private session. All right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So in the meantime we will redact that and you may

8 proceed, Mr. Thayer.

9 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. And if we may move into

10 private session for this series of questions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, let's move into private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8590











11 Page 8590 redacted. Private session















Page 8591

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Thank you.


11 Q. Sir, did you see any Muslim men directed towards or placed in any

12 detention locations around the UN base on the 12th of July?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Did you receive any reports of that happening on the 12th of

15 July?

16 A. No, sir.

17 Q. You testified a little while ago about seeing the column of men

18 passing by the buses. Do you have any knowledge as to how those men were

19 separated?

20 A. I don't have, sir.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: I think that it was asked and answered, and the

23 Prosecution is trying to receive some answer which cannot be.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

25 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I don't think that precise question

Page 8592

1 was -- was asked. He indicated that he saw these individuals and I'm just

2 following up on --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


5 Q. Sir, did you understand my question?

6 A. Could you please repeat it?

7 Q. You described a few moments ago, seeing men who had been

8 separated, passing by the buses, and my question simply is: Do you have

9 any knowledge as to how those men had been separated?

10 A. I don't have, sir.

11 Q. Sir, do you recall having any contact or seeing Momir Nikolic on

12 the 12th of July?

13 A. As far as I remember, I had no contact whatsoever with Momir

14 Nikolic, at least I don't remember that contact.

15 Q. Do you recall having any contact or conversations with any VRS

16 members that day?

17 A. Well, there were many members of the army and police there. There

18 were many contacts. I don't know the names of the people, but there was a

19 huge number of members, both of police and the army there.

20 Q. Well, let me ask you, sir, while you were in Potocari on 12 July,

21 can you identify for the Trial Chamber what other units or formations or

22 detachments were there that you remember seeing, either at Potocari or

23 passing through?

24 A. Certain units passed through the area, military units, police

25 units. A company of the Zvornik PJP was there, and I don't know when they

Page 8593

1 left. There were various groups there.

2 Q. Do you recall any VRS units staying on the site of Potocari in

3 addition to the Jahorina and PJP units?

4 A. As far as I can recall, there was a unit of the military police

5 there. I believe that they were from the Bratunac Brigade.

6 MR. THAYER: At this time, if we may have P01516 displayed on

7 e-court, please. And I think when it comes up we'll have to turn it

8 upside down, please. And if we could zoom in just a little bit, that

9 would be helpful. Thank you.

10 Q. Sir, just take a moment, if you would, and orient yourself on the

11 image before you. And just let us know when you are comfortable that you

12 are recognising what this is.

13 A. As far as I can see, this is the UNPROFOR unit base.

14 Q. And I'm going to ask you, with the assistance of Madam Usher, to

15 make a few markings on this. Would you please indicate first the

16 direction towards Bratunac? And if you would do -- just please draw an

17 arrow and a B next to the arrow.

18 A. Well, I can't orient myself really enough to be able to tell you

19 where Bratunac is.

20 Q. Okay. Can you identify where you were directing the buses, based

21 on this photograph?

22 A. Well, the picture is not entirely clear to me. I know that I

23 stood right in front of the entrance to the UNPROFOR base, and this is

24 where I turned the buses around.

25 Q. And can you make out where the entrance to the UNPROFOR base is on

Page 8594

1 this image?

2 A. It's very hard for me.

3 Q. Okay. Maybe what we can do, Your Honour, is --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If he's finding it difficult, I mean, we can

5 understand that.

6 MR. THAYER: We'll -- I'll move on and perhaps come up with

7 another idea during the break --


9 MR. THAYER: -- and we'll see where we can go from there.


11 MR. THAYER: So we can dispense with this exhibit for the time

12 being, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps we could zoom out a little bit and perhaps

14 that could be more helpful to the witness. Let's try that first.

15 Does that help you more, Witness?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, it's not

17 helping me.


19 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I think I -- there is an exhibit, I

20 might be able to show in consultation with my learned friends, but I'll

21 have to consult with them during the break.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want the break now?

23 MR. THAYER: I think that might be helpful, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay. We'll have a 25-minute break starting

25 from now. Thank you.

Page 8595

1 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

4 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. I think we have arrived at

5 a solution to the difficulties we were encountering, and I apologise for

6 the delay, and I thank everyone for their flexibility and understanding.

7 What we are going to do with the Court's permission is use some exhibits

8 that I had intended to use, but about which the Defence has been placed on

9 notice previously. These -- this exhibit does not have a 65 ter number,

10 but I will identify it for the record and I think we can take care of

11 matters a little down the line.

12 May I proceed, Your Honour?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you may proceed. We hear no objections. I

14 suppose this has been --

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: No objections on our side.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: -- discussed amongst you before. Thank you, Mr.

17 Lazarevic.

18 Go ahead, Mr. Thayer.

19 MR. THAYER: If we may enter private session for a moment, Mr.

20 President.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. We'll just check on that.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8596

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.


22 Q. Sir, on the image that's on the ELMO, can you identify the

23 location in which you were directing buses in Potocari on the 12th of

24 July? Do you see that area on this photograph?

25 A. I think I can now.

Page 8597

1 Q. Okay. And would you just -- let me hand you a pen, because we're

2 not going to mark that actual piece of evidence right now. I'm going to

3 have to use a black and white photograph, since this is a piece of

4 evidence from the actual evidence room, but I -- if you would just mark

5 the location so the Trial Chamber can see that. And then we'll mark it

6 black and white. I'm sorry, point. Point with that pointer, the location

7 where you were directing buses on 12 July.

8 A. I think that's the one, here.

9 Q. Okay. And there is a small dot there, sir. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes, yes, I do.

11 Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you a black and white copy for the

12 purposes of marking the exhibit here today. And would you please mark

13 with that marker that's being handed to you the location where you were

14 working on 12 July?

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Can you just draw a circle around that, please.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Now, having had an opportunity to look at the map a little bit, do

19 you think you can recall well enough the paths that the Jahorina units

20 took and the Zvornik PJP units took upon their entry into Potocari on the

21 12th of July?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Okay. I'd ask you at this point, if you could just draw arrow on

24 that map to indicate the direction in which, first of all, the Jahorina

25 units travelled on the 12th of July?

Page 8598

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And if you could, can you just mark a J next to the two arrows

3 which you have drawn on this?

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you mark the path taken by the PJP units as

6 they entered Potocari?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And if you would just write PJP next to the arrow.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if you would continue looking at that

11 photograph, there is a structure, it appears to be a white-coloured

12 building. Right at the tip of the arrow you just drew marking the route

13 of the PJP and directly across from the location which you circled, do you

14 have any recollection, sir, of any Muslim men being taken to that location

15 at any time on the 12th of July?

16 A. I don't recall that.

17 Q. Sir, if you could just write "PW-160" anywhere on one of the

18 corners of that document, please.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. And I thank you.

21 Thank you, Madam Usher.

22 Sir, I'd like to turn your attention now to the activities along

23 the communication, the road that runs between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje,

24 okay?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8599

1 Q. And just to verify, are we in open session? Okay.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

3 MR. THAYER: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And we were in open session for this last part as

5 well.

6 MR. THAYER: That's fine. Thank you.

7 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber the approximate locations

8 along that communication where the Jahorina companies were deployed? And

9 if you can't remember exactly, that's fine, but if just generally you

10 could describe where they were?

11 A. Well, I can't be specific about the location, but I think in the

12 Kravica area and in the direction of Konjevic Polje and then from Konjevic

13 Polje to Bratunac, I don't know where it was exactly that the units hooked

14 up, but these units were deployed there in those areas.

15 Q. And can you be a little bit more specific in terms of, for

16 example, which units were deployed from the area of Konjevic Polje in the

17 direction of Kravica?

18 A. Well, the two companies were deployed securing the communications,

19 and there was also the Sekovici unit, the Sekovici unit, the special

20 police brigade unit from Sekovici.

21 Q. Okay. Let me be a little bit more specific, sir. I think

22 previously you testified that the Jahorina units secured a particular

23 portion of that road, and hooked up somewhere. Can you be a little bit

24 more specific about what you mean by that? And then I'll have a couple

25 follow-up questions.

Page 8600

1 A. Well, from the Bratunac area our units were not deployed there in

2 the exit from the town. Our units were not deployed there. I don't know

3 the exact mileage, but I do know that they were not deployed there.

4 Now, as to what units were deployed there, I really don't know. I

5 don't know if this part of the communication was secured by them or what

6 they did, I really don't know.

7 Q. Let me ask this then, sir: Do you know which company was

8 accommodated in the Konjevic Polje area?

9 A. That was the 2nd Company of the deserters' unit. They were in the

10 school in Konjevic Polje. That's where they were.

11 MR. THAYER: And if we may move into private session just for one

12 question, please, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]


25 Q. What was your understanding, sir --

Page 8601

1 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, we are in open session, Your Honours.


3 Q. And what is your recollection, sir, of approximately where those

4 1st company members were deployed, the ones that were based in Konjevic

5 Polje?

6 A. Well, they were deployed from Konjevic Polje in the direction

7 of Bratunac, along the communication. I don't know where their

8 starting point was, but I do know that they covered that part of the

9 communication.

10 Q. Okay. Now, you had mentioned the area of Kravica as being what

11 you recall as possibly being the area of the starting point for the other

12 end. Is that correct, sir?

13 A. For the 1st company, yes. I don't know where their starting point

14 was, starting position, but that would be more or less that area.

15 Q. Okay. Now, if we may again I'm sorry, Your Honour, if we may move

16 into private session for one question.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go to private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8602

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.


6 Q. Just to make it clear, in what direction then were the 1st Company

7 Jahorina unit members deployed from this area of Kravica?

8 A. From Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, that was the direction.

9 Q. And is it fair to say that your recollection is that they met

10 somewhere roughly in the middle?

11 A. Well, yes. Now, as to where exactly they met, but it was

12 somewhere in the middle.

13 MR. THAYER: With the Court's indulgence.

14 If we may see P02111, please.

15 Q. I would just ask you to take a look at that image in front of you,

16 sir. And if -- do you see the area marked Kravica?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you see the area marked Konjevic Polje?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And does this map more or less depict the area as you recall it at

21 the time? Are those the locations?

22 A. I think it does.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MR. THAYER: And we don't have any further use at this time, thank

25 you, for this map. Try to save a little time, Your Honour.

Page 8603

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, and to

3 you -- to my colleague, but perhaps it would be better to cut our

4 cross-examination short to have the witness mark on this map where this

5 location, where the two companies met, where they linked up, the two

6 companies that he is talking about, because that might cut short our

7 cross-examination, if he were to do that now.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to put --

9 MR. THAYER: I can certainly put the question to him, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, if you would take the stylus and, if you can, can you just

11 make an X or draw an X at the location where you believe the two companies

12 linked up.

13 A. I think I can't really put an X where the two companies met

14 because very roughly speaking they met somewhere in the middle. I can't

15 put an X here, I simply don't know how I could do that, given what I now

16 recall.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. You testified previously, sir, about

18 inspecting the units along that communication. Do you recall that?

19 A. Yes, I said that I inspected the road on the 12th, that I visited

20 this area, and that I saw General Mladic talk to the civilians.

21 Q. Okay. I just want to ask you first, do you recall approximately

22 how many Jahorina members were deployed on the 12th, along that stretch of

23 the communication?

24 A. Well, approximately around 170, I think, if anything less than

25 that, but this is a very rough approximation.

Page 8604

1 Q. Do you recall whether the full 200-man contingent from Jahorina

2 ended up going to the Potocari and Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road area on or

3 about the 12th? Let me -- before you answer, let me just ask a better

4 question. That was a terrible question.

5 Sir, do you recall whether the full 200-man contingent from the

6 Jahorina training centre was sent from the centre on or about the 11th of

7 July?

8 A. Could you please repeat your question? I didn't understand it.

9 Q. Okay. Sorry, that wasn't much better. Do you recall in total how

10 many of the Jahorina training centre members went to Potocari or to the

11 road on the 12th of July?

12 A. On the 12th of July two platoons went from Potocari to this road,

13 and now as to how many platoons were deployed from the 2nd company

14 commanded by (redacted) I couldn't tell you that, I don't know. I

15 could just make some assumptions, perhaps.

16 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if would he could just have a redaction

17 at page 81, line 19, please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. Just redact the name.

19 MR. THAYER: Please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And let's proceed. Thank you.


22 Q. And as you travelled along this communication on the 12th of July,

23 can you describe for the Court how the men physically were deployed on the

24 communication?

25 A. Well, the distance was predetermined, but I don't know what it

Page 8605

1 was. I don't know whether we were supposed to keep in -- keep visual

2 contact at all times, but at any rate, there was a certain distance that

3 was set. I think that's how they were deployed there.

4 Q. And when you refer to a certain distance, you are referring to a

5 certain distance between individual members of the unit?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- were these members physically on the road or were they off to

10 the side in -- in the field?

11 A. I think they were physically on the road.

12 Q. Now, other than seeing the Jahorina members guarding the prisoners

13 at that plateau you testified before, do you recall receiving any reports

14 of Muslim men surrendering to Jahorina units along the road on the 12th of

15 July?

16 A. I didn't have any information of them surrendering. I know about

17 this, but I don't remember any such information.

18 MR. THAYER: If we may go into private session, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8606

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


19 Q. Sir, do you recall what you did after you travelled along the

20 communication?

21 A. Well, I went down this communication, I checked -- this position

22 of the personnel, so the one thing that I remember is that I actually went

23 along this communication.

24 Q. And did you return to Potocari at that time or somewhere else?

25 A. I don't remember, but I think that I did go back to Potocari.

Page 8607

1 Q. And do you recall what time, approximately, the transportations

2 ended that day?

3 A. Well, I don't really know. I really don't know.

4 Q. Do you remember whether it was in the afternoon versus the

5 evening?

6 A. You mean the transportations from Potocari?

7 Q. Exactly.

8 A. I think that on the 12th it was in the evening. I think it was

9 actually already well into the night. Maybe 2200 hours, 2300 hours. It

10 was in night -- it was night-time, well into the night-time.

11 Q. And let me ask you this, sir: This -- this incident where you

12 observed General Mladic addressing the group of prisoners along the

13 communication, how certain are you that that occurred on the 12th as

14 opposed to another day?

15 A. I think I can be sure that it was on the 12th, as far as I can

16 remember. Well, I can get my dates mixed up, but I am telling you about

17 what I saw, about what I know, but it is possible that I may be wrong

18 about some dates. I can even be wrong about the time and so on.

19 Q. Okay. After the transportation of the civilians out of Potocari

20 ended on the 12th, what did you do?

21 A. Well, when we finished with that part of the evacuation on the

22 12th, we went back with the part of the unit from Potocari to the village

23 where we were billeted. I reported to Mr. Borovcanin, and he told me to

24 get some rest and that in the morning we would continue with the

25 evacuation. So I went to my quarters in the school, I slept, and then the

Page 8608

1 next morning I don't know the exact time, we went back to continue

2 evacuating the civilians.

3 And then in the morning I think that Mr. Borovcanin called me. He

4 wanted us to meet in Bratunac, and I don't know if we had breakfast, we

5 sat down and we talked and there was a reporter present, I don't know what

6 newspaper he was with. I don't remember now, I'm trying to recall, but I

7 think that after Bratunac I went back to Potocari.

8 Q. Okay. Before we get to breakfast on the 13th, let me just ask you

9 a couple more questions about the night of the 12th, all right? You

10 mentioned that you reported to Mr. Borovcanin. Do you recall where you

11 did that, sir?

12 A. Well, I think it was in the public security station in Bratunac.

13 There was an office there. That's where we met after the 12th in the

14 morning.

15 Q. And other than giving you the order to continue the transportation

16 the next day, did Mr. Borovcanin give you any specific orders with respect

17 to the units along the road?

18 A. As far as I recall, I don't think so. I simply don't remember.

19 Q. Now, were there any Jahorina members left in Potocari on the night

20 of the -- July 12th, or did the entire contingent return to the

21 accommodations in Bjelovac?

22 A. On the 12th at night, the night between the 12th and 13th, there

23 were no members of the deserters' unit in Potocari. They had gone back to

24 their accommodations in Bjelovac.

25 Q. Now, seeing as how you spent the night of the 12th of July near

Page 8609

1 Bratunac and seeing as how you had reported to Mr. Borovcanin sometime

2 during the evening of the 12th, did you become aware at any time of any

3 prisoners being detained in Bratunac on the night of the 12th of July?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Back to the morning of the 13th, sir. After meeting

6 Mr. Borovcanin and the reporter in Bratunac, what did you do?

7 A. As far as I remember, I went to Potocari, but to tell you the

8 truth, I don't remember.

9 Q. Okay. Do you have any recollection of being in Potocari on the

10 13th of July?

11 A. I don't remember, sir.

12 Q. Do you recall, sir, how many days the transportations of the

13 civilians from Potocari lasted?

14 A. As far as I remember, it took place on the 12th and 13th.

15 Q. And do you recall during your interview with the OTP and during

16 your testimony in the Blagojevic case, being asked specific questions

17 about your activities on the 13th of July?

18 A. I don't remember, sir.

19 Q. All right.

20 MR. THAYER: With the Court's indulgence. Your Honours, I think

21 we'll have to go into private session, because I believe I will need to

22 identify certain portions of the --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem.

24 MR. THAYER: -- transcript.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

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17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of March,

19 2007, at 9.00 a.m.