1 Tuesday, 13 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So good afternoon, Madam Registrar, could you call
7 the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. All the accused are here.
11 Mr. Mrkic from the Beara team is absent. Rest, I think, are here.
12 Prosecution are Mr. McCloskey accompanied by Mr. Thayer. All right.
13 Witness is in the -- is present. Good afternoon to you, sir.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to proceed with your
17 Mr. Stojanovic.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-160 [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions, and thereby conclude
25 my cross-examination. As you remember yesterday, we stopped when -- while
1 we were discussing the search of the terrain. Do you remember that, sir?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. In the case where you testified previously and, if need be, we
4 are going to give references, inter alia, you mentioned that this search
5 was commanded by Mr. Gavric from the Bratunac Brigade. Do you remember
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is your recollection such that you would answer in the same manner
9 to this question?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. On that occasion you said that the order to search the terrain, as
12 you repeated yesterday, you received in the command of the Bratunac
13 Brigade on the 17th of July, between 7.00 and 8.00, but in yesterday's
14 transcript it was stated between 8.00 and 9.00. My question is, where did
15 you receive this order, and to the best of your memory, when this was
17 A. To the best of my recollection, that meeting took place in the
18 command of the Bratunac Brigade. Whether there were any other evidence,
19 records, as to the order, I'm trying to remember. It could -- it is
20 possible that some order was recorded from the commander of the special
21 police brigade. I'm trying to recall that to testify about that here. In
22 my talks with the Prosecutor I saw that order, I did not remember it
23 previously. I would like to take a look at it once again so that I could
24 give you an exact answer to that.
25 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, I would like to ask the usher to retrieve
1 Exhibit 4D97, and before we have it on the screen may I explain that it
2 goes for a map of the area that you were located in, and with the help of
3 the usher we would ask you to mark your position on the 17th and the 18th
4 of July, by this I mean the area which you combed or searched on these
5 dates. If we may enlarge this area along this road. Excellent, thank
7 Sir, let's take a look at this map together. The red line marks
8 the road?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. To the right-hand side is Bratunac, to the left, Konjevic Polje.
11 Do you agree about that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you see the village of Kravica being marked here?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Further down the road can you see Lolici, the village of Lolici?
16 A. Yes, I can see that.
17 Q. We'll be able to spot in large letters to the left-hand side of
18 the road in the direction of Konjevic Polje the area of the village
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now I would like Madam Usher to help you mark the area where you
22 moved on the 17th and 18th of July, 1995, while searching this area?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, do you think it will be beneficial
24 if we zoomed in the area of Kravica that you were referring the witness
25 to, at least to an extent? I mean it would help everyone read the names
1 first -- in the first place. We know where they were, but some people
2 don't. And if we zoom in then he can mark on the zoomed-in copy. I think
3 it will be more useful.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't see a problem with that,
5 Your Honour, although marking out the territory would entail the need to
6 have a broader view of the area. But I would like to ask for the witness
7 to focus on the toponyms of Siljkovici and Kravica, along this red line
8 marking the road. This would be the third quadrant from the right-hand
9 side of the map. Thank you.
10 Q. Sir, may I ask you to circle with the stylus you are going to be
11 given, the area marked out as Kravica on that map?
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Could you please also mark out the village of Lolici?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Thank you. And now let us zoom out.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We can't zoom in and out, et cetera. He started
17 marking this map. Where would you wish him to mark out now?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine, fine, Your Honour.
19 Q. Then I would like you, Witness, to mark out the first circle with
20 the letter K.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And a circle denoting the village of Lolici, to mark it by the
23 letter L?
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. And in the top right corner, could you please write PW-160.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And in the bottom right corner, could you please state the date,
3 the 13th of March, 2007?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Now, while we're still working on this map, could you mark in the
6 bottom right corner the direction of Bratunac by the letter B, and in the
7 opposite direction KP, denoting Konjevic Polje, and further markings are
8 going to be made on another map.
9 If I could ask for the initial view. Thank you. Could we zoom in
10 to the area of the village of Pobudje? Excellent, thank you.
11 Sir, I will ask you to mark the right-hand side of the road with
12 BR, standing for Bratunac, and in the opposite direction on the left-hand
13 side, to state KP, to denote Konjevic Polje.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Excellent. Now, could you please mark out the area in which you
16 searched terrain on the 17th and 18th of July, 1995?
17 A. [Marks] Roughly here, in this area. I don't know exactly the
18 line of departure, I cannot remember, but mainly I know that Bratunac
19 Brigade was up to, along the road, then there were we and then to the left
20 of us were the military brigade, which was connected with us on our left
22 Q. Could you please mark out the direction of your movement?
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Could you mark with an arrow the direction of movement of the
25 members of the Bratunac Brigade?
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Could you please mark that with an BRB. BRB for Bratunac
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Could you please mark out the direction of movement of the
6 military [as interpreted] brigade?
7 A. [Marks]
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may say this,
9 I was -- it was pointed out to me that on page 6 in line 5 and in 7, in
10 18 -- in 5 and 18th [as interpreted] it states "military" instead of
11 Milici Brigade. May this be rectified so that we know exactly which unit
12 we're discussing.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. We are through with this document. But
16 before that could we mark it. Sir, could you please mark it -- this
17 view with PW-160, and above that could you date this map, 13th of March,
19 A. [Marks].
20 Q. Thank you very much. Can we conclude work on this document, and
21 now I would like to ask for us to take a look in the e-court, Exhibit
22 4D83. And 4D83. Before we have it on the screen, I would like to explain
23 that this is the order of the commander of the Bratunac Brigade, dated
24 14th of July, 1995. I believe that this document has been translated into
25 English. If I could ask for it to be juxtaposed to the B/C/S version,
1 focusing on item -- item 1 of the document issued by the commander of the
2 Bratunac Brigade to the effect that on the basis of an order from the
3 command of the Drina Corps, and with a view of executing a complete search
4 of the liberated territory, the same should be done in accordance with a
5 detailed instruction in -- under items 1, 2, 3, and 4 of this order. Do
6 you see that, sir?
7 A. Yes, I can see that.
8 Q. Would you agree with me that under 1, item 1, the area between
9 Lupoglav and Ravni Buljib, and then along the axes around the village of
10 Sandic, that that denotes the area that you departed from in your search
11 of the terrain?
12 A. I cannot remember the details, but we searched part of this
13 terrain depending on the number of men that we had at our disposal and
14 that we were given.
15 Q. Under item 6 of this order it reads that "personnel involved in
16 the search will wear white bands on their right shoulders for purposes of
17 recognition and identification." Can you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recall that you and your troops wore those white bands
20 which served the purpose of identification?
21 A. I cannot remember that, sir.
22 Q. Thank you. Now let us take a look at Exhibit 4D86.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it has also been
24 translated into English. And before we have it on the screen, I would
25 like to explain that this document is a proposal by Colonel Ignjat
1 Milanovic from the Drina Corps to the commander of the Drina Corps dated
2 15th of July, 1995. I would like -- ask to focus on a section that is on
3 page 2 of the English version. Item 1 of the proposal. In the B/C/S we
4 are on the right page. In the English version we will have to go back to
5 page 1, to the last row or paragraph. Thank you.
6 Q. Sir, take a look at this proposal, which says that after the state
7 of affairs had been stated the proposal is to authorise and appoint the
8 commander of the 1st Bratunac Brigade as commander of all forces which are
9 participating in the search of the terrain and for the sweeping of the
10 battlefield to the east of the road and in control of the Kasaba-Drinjaca
11 road. My question to you is, is it known to you that the commander of the
12 Bratunac Brigade was appointed as commander of all forces taking part in
13 the search of the terrain?
14 A. I do not know that, but I do know what kind of reports we sent
15 from the field, and I know that information was sent through
16 Captain Gavric to the command of the Bratunac Brigade.
17 Q. Thank you. From your yesterday's testimony I understood that from
18 Mr. Borovcanin you received an instruction to contact Momir Nikolic a day
19 earlier for further instructions and further orders. Is that so?
20 A. As far as I can remember, yes, that was so.
21 Q. Thank you. And finally, I would like to take a look at
22 Prosecution Exhibit P00262, which has also been translated into English.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And before we see it on the
24 screen, Your Honours, I would like to explain that this was a regular
25 combat report of the commander of the 1st Bratunac Brigade dated 18th July
1 1995, submitted to the commander of the Drina Corps.
2 Q. I would like to ask to focus on item 2 of this combat report,
3 which states -- if you can follow what I'm saying, sir.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. "Our units -- during the day our units and the 3rd Infantry
6 Battalion and 4th Infantry Battalion and people mobilised for compulsory
7 labour have searched the terrain in the area of Pubudje, Glogova, Hrncici,
8 and Konjevic Polje." Can you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that the area where you moved on that day on the 18th and the
11 day before on the 17th of July, and is that the area that you marked out
12 on the map a couple of minutes ago?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Is it known to you that these days, the 16th, the
15 17th, and the 18th of July, Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin, with the 2nd Sekovici
16 detachment was located in the village of Baljkovica in the Zvornik
17 municipality in combat with the 28th Brigade, which was breaking out of
18 the area?
19 A. I know that there were some fighting there that Mr. Borovcanin was
20 in that area.
21 Q. Could you tell us how far away is that area from the area that you
22 were located in?
23 A. Roughly from Bratunac to Zvornik there is some 40 to 50
24 kilometres. But I don't know the exact distance to that village that you
1 Q. But we can agree that that distance is over 40 kilometres?
2 A. Roughly, yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to conclude my cross-examination with
4 working on Exhibit 4D80.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And before we have it on the
6 screen, Your Honour, may I explain that this is an order of the commander
7 of the Drina Corps dated 13th of July, 1995. Let us take a look at the
8 last paragraph in the B/C/S version of that order, and in the English
9 version. That would be item 4. I believe that's -- that is on the
10 following -- no, no, no, it's not on the following page. It's okay.
11 Q. Sir, let us focus on this part of the Drina Corps command order.
12 It reads, "Captured and disarmed Muslims are to be accommodated in
13 appropriate premises which can be secured with lower-strength forces, and
14 report on that to the Supreme Command."
15 Can you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That's an order about -- issued by the Drina Corps on the 13th of
18 July, 1995. My question to you is, have you personally ever, in that
19 period, on the 12th, 13th and 14th, received any order relating to the
20 treatment of POWs?
21 A. No, I have received no such order.
22 Q. Thank you. On those days you never received an order from
23 Ljubomir Borovcanin that your deserters' unit, as we call it, I apologise,
24 should isolate able-bodied Muslim men from their families in that area?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Likewise you never received an order from Ljubomir Borovcanin that
2 your unit of "deserters," in inverted commas, should attack, disarm, or
3 take prisoner any UN soldier?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You never received any instructions regarding the right of your
6 unit of so-called deserters to seize or destroy personal property of
7 Muslims, including their valuables?
8 A. No.
9 Q. If there should have -- if there should have been such events in
10 the field, you personally know nothing about it?
11 A. I personally know nothing about it, but I saw some objects and
12 some property. I saw some people moving about, but I know nothing
14 Q. I would like to -- an additional explanation. You said that you
15 saw property abandoned by the road?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, before we proceed any further on this,
18 because I think this needs clarification. To your previous question the
19 witness said, "I personally know nothing about it, but I saw objects and
20 some property. I saw some people moving about, but I know nothing
22 Can he explain it better, what he means by he saw some objects and
23 some property, what were -- what was this -- what were these objects, this
24 property, and what he means by saying "people moving about," and also who
25 were these people, whether they were members his group, whether they
1 members of some military unit, or whether they were civilians. Perhaps he
2 can explain. I think it needs clarification, because as it is it is very
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Sir, have you understood the question?
6 A. Could you repeat, please?
7 Q. So the question was, you said that you had seen things, objects,
8 abandoned by the roadside. Can you tell us where, in which area, you saw
9 that, whose personal effects or property that -- those were, and what
10 soldiers, if they were soldiers, you saw moving along the road, and what
11 do you mean by these personal effects that you mentioned?
12 A. Well, I meant that some bags were being carried, and parcels. And
13 I meant the movement of civilians around Potocari. I don't know anything
14 about military movements. And there were the unit, the deserters' unit,
15 the military police, and other units.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I had interrupted you, Mr. Stojanovic, when you
17 had -- you were asking the witness about seeing property abandoned by the
18 road. So you can proceed on that.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But I have
20 been warned that on page 12, line 9, the answer was not recorded in full.
21 The witness said that he had seen personal effects, and that he knew
22 nothing about personal ID, and this is not reflected in the transcript.
23 So if you agree, I will repeat the question, and clarify to the full.
24 Q. So, sir --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You heard what Mr. Stojanovic has just said. Do you
1 agree with him?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you could repeat, please.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then repeat, Mr. Stojanovic.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So, the question was, when you saw that you had seen personal
6 effects by the roadside, did you see abandoned ID documents, such as
7 passports or identification -- identity cards, or do you mean by personal
8 effects bags and the like?
9 A. I did see no identification documents, nor passports or identity
10 cards. And as for bags and parcels and et cetera, I saw some.
11 Q. Thank you. I believe that we've clarified.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to go
13 into private session for the last two questions because it refers to a
14 protected witness.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 8711 redacted. Private session
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] While I'm formatting the
12 question, I would like us to take a look at Exhibit 4D16, this is a
13 Defence Exhibit, and this is a statement about the facts concerning Momir
14 Nikolic, but I apologise, perhaps it would be better if we were to go back
15 to private session, because we will quote some parts of the documents,
16 including names.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's do that. Let's go back to private
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 8713-8716 redacted. Private session
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure how expert I am to
1 explain the humanitarian situation in Bijeljina or in Bosanski Novi or any
2 town in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or in the town that I lived in. What I can
3 say is that at that time any -- in any town if you had 10 Deutschmarks,
4 you were a rich man. And with 10 German marks you can -- you could live
5 for months and whoever could afford to buy clothes, trousers, shoes, et
6 cetera, they were considered rich.
7 Many had fled from their homes, both Muslims, Serbs, Croats, lived
8 in other people's homes. Literally I believe that they lived supported by
9 some form of humanitarian aid. This is how I see that situation, not only
10 in a particular town or city, but throughout the territory of
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
13 Q. In the town we mentioned earlier on, did you have enough water?
14 A. There was water. I think there was enough water because there are
15 two rivers flowing close to that town.
16 Q. Is it fair to say that regardless of where this town is, there
17 were water cuts?
18 A. I cannot say exactly, but there are some shortages or disruptions
19 to the water-supply in the town where I live now for a couple of hours at
20 a time.
21 Q. Could you tell us whether there was enough to eat or enough food
22 in the shops?
23 A. Well, you could buy some food items. Enough, well, that's not for
24 me to say. (redacted) If I were
25 to say there was enough or there wasn't enough, well, I would be mistaken
1 because there was some food to be bought.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I know why you are standing.
3 MR. THAYER: Okay. Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, go ahead and please remember not to mention
5 the town. Or anything else that could identify you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, Your Honour.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Is it fair to say that there was practically no humanitarian aid
9 coming into the town?
10 A. I do not know, believe me. I cannot tell you exactly whether
11 there was some humanitarian aid coming or not. I was never involved in
12 these matters.
13 Q. You spoke about your tasks in Potocari, and you said that your
14 task was, among other things, to ensure security for the UNPROFOR and for
15 the civilians who were gathered there. Is it fair to say that the Serb
16 authorities were afraid that the Serb civilians who might have lost some
17 family during the war may come to Potocari to attack the Muslim
19 A. Could you please repeat the question?
20 Q. Is it fair to say that the Serb authorities were afraid that Serb
21 civilians who lived around Potocari, around Srebrenica and Bratunac, and
22 who may have lost some family, some relatives, would come in July 1995 to
23 Potocari to attack Muslim civilians?
24 A. That's possible, that's possible.
25 Q. And indeed your task was to protect the Muslim civilians who were
1 in the Potocari base, to protect them from any mistreatment, wasn't it?
2 A. My task was to secure UNPROFOR forces and to secure the civilians,
3 and for the civilians to be evacuated, for us to assist in their
4 evacuation, so that they may depart in the arranged direction or in the
5 direction which they wanted to take. Because some things had been
7 Q. But you say that your task was to ensure the security of the
8 UNPROFOR and of the civilians. Is that not a protection task, as such, so
9 that nothing could happen to them?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: I think he's answered the question, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so too.
13 Let's move, Ms. Fauveau, please.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Fine, Mr. President.
15 Q. When you were in Potocari, you went together with General Mladic
16 when he spoke to the Muslim civilians, didn't you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And on that occasion water and food was distributed -- were
19 distributed to Muslim civilians, right?
20 A. Yes, food and water were distributed.
21 Q. Is it fair to say that water tanks were brought to Potocari?
22 A. As far as I know, I saw one water tanker. I don't know about the
23 rest, believe me.
24 Q. And that water tank was brought to Potocari for water to be
25 distributed to Muslim civilians. Is that so?
1 A. Most probably, yes.
2 Q. Was General Mladic filmed when he was speaking to the civilians
3 while food was being distributed?
4 A. As far as I know, yes.
5 Q. And when the crew filming General Mladic left, is it fair to say
6 that nobody ill-treated the Muslim civilians; they were able to eat the
7 food that had been distributed to them?
8 A. To the best of my knowledge, nobody took that food away. I did
9 not see such occurrences.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we move to private session for
11 a few questions?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, will the's move to private session, please.
13 [Private session]
11 Page 8722 redacted. Private session
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you understood the question, Witness?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood the question. The
16 question is whether, after the war, I learnt about the number of the
17 people there. I don't want this figure that I uttered to be taken as
18 something exact. Maybe there were more people or less people. In my mind
19 it was a huge crowd of people. It was a huge crowd of people, in my
20 opinion. I may be mistaken about the numbers or the figures, but I did
21 not hear after the war what was the exact number. I had no need to listen
22 subsequently to any of that, because I know what I saw. Please do not
23 take my word for granted as to the figures. Because at that moment it did
24 not matter; what figures I do give, they are rough figures.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I agree. So we can conclude that figure you gave is just an
2 approximate figure and that you would agree that it may not be the right
3 figure. Is that so?
4 A. Well, approximately. When one sees such a crowd one can be
5 mistaken in their assessment of the figure. So I can be mistaken, yes.
6 Q. Yesterday you mentioned the arrival of buses and you spoke about
7 the behaviour of the Muslim civilians. Is that true that they were not
8 pushed towards their buses, they were in a hurry themselves to get on the
9 buses? Is that so?
10 A. Well, all of them were in a hurry to leave, that's one thing.
11 The second thing, it is possible that some people were pushed. And from
12 the point where they departed from when they set out towards the buses and
13 the trucks, they were running to occupy a place on these vehicles, you
15 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the part played by the UNPROFOR in the
16 evacuation. Is it fair to say that no UNPROFOR member spoke to you saying
17 that you had -- one had to stop the evacuation?
18 A. As far as I know, no. They were there, they must have helped,
19 assisted; they took part in all that. I do not remember that
20 conversation, you know.
21 Q. You stated that you entered on the 12th July 1995 with a DutchBat
22 officer into the UNPROFOR base of DutchBat. Is it fair to say that this
23 happened before the bus -- the buses arrived, the buses that were meant to
24 evacuate the people from Potocari?
25 A. I believe -- I think it was, yes.
1 Q. When you were together with that DutchBat officer, did you discuss
2 the evacuation with him?
3 A. I can't remember that we discussed any evacuation.
4 Q. You stated that you saw men get on the buses separately from the
5 other Muslim civilians. And you added on page 1665, you said that you
6 didn't see when exactly these men were -- where they were separated. Is
7 that fair?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On the 12th and on the 13th of July, 1995, is it fair to say that
10 some of the Muslim forces were still around Potocari?
11 A. Well, I know that on the 12th, when we were entering Potocari,
12 fire was opened from the left-hand side of the road, and I had information
13 that beyond Potocari the army was going through the woods towards Tuzla.
14 They were taking a route unknown to me, but through the forest and over
15 those hills beyond Potocari. That would be to the right-hand side of
17 Q. Could it be that the men you saw being separated were actually
18 Muslim military men who had been captured and then taken to Potocari?
19 A. Could you clarify that question for me, please?
20 Q. Could it be that the men you saw who were being separated from the
21 other civilians had been taken to Potocari after being captured around
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
24 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, as that question is framed, it's so
25 general that without, I think, further clarification in terms of any basis
1 for his knowledge, it's an improper question as framed.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you plan to adduce evidence that this was so,
3 Ms. Fauveau?
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Probably, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you put such a question to the witness, you
6 must be sure that you have a basis for it. You can't put a witness -- a
7 question to the witness based on something hypothetical which you cannot
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with all respect, I
10 do not think it is a hypothetical question. I believe we have, indeed,
11 adduced evidence to the effect, but if you prohibit the question, I will
12 not put it.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, did you see anyone, any men being separated
15 in the first place? Let's start from there.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I saw a column heading
17 towards the buses. A column of men. I did not see any separation of
18 same, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: These men that you saw were, to your knowledge,
20 Muslims or any other kind of ethnic group?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only say that I presume that
22 they must have been Muslims.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Were they accompanied by any Serbian
24 military units?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were on their own in a column
1 heading towards the buses and the trucks.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't know if it is still the case of you
3 wanting to put the same question again after having heard the witness,
4 Madam Fauveau?
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I could ask him
6 whether he knew where the men came from.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a fair question.
8 If you could answer it, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where they had come
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Is it fair to say that between the 12th and the 14th of July,
13 1995, you had an opportunity to go through Bratunac?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And, when you went through Bratunac, you never saw many bodies of
16 killed people in Bratunac, did you?
17 A. In Bratunac I didn't see one dead body.
18 Q. Is it fair to say that in Potocari, you didn't see bodies of
19 killed people in Potocari either?
20 A. I saw no dead bodies in Potocari either.
21 Q. On the 9th of March, 2007, page 69 of the transcript, you said
22 that you did not have any contact with Momir Nikolic whilst the Muslim
23 civilians were being evacuated from Potocari. Is it true that you knew
24 him before?
25 A. I said that I didn't remember any contact with Mr. Nikolic, but I
1 think that I had known him before.
2 Q. So you said that you're not sure today whether you knew him
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
5 MR. THAYER: He just answered the question, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: He said he thinks that he knew him before. If you
7 are going to ask him further questions that could reveal his identity,
8 obviously we need to go into private session.
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I think it would be useful,
10 Mr. President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go into private session, please.
12 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Madam Fauveau.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Yesterday you stated that the UNPROFOR members had to escort the
9 convoys to Kladanj, but you didn't know whether the UNPROFOR members had
10 done it, had escorted the convoys. Is that right?
11 A. I don't know whether they really escorted the convoys, the
13 Q. In 2003 you gave a statement, which I'm not going to mention;
14 we've just spoken about it a moment ago. Do you remember stating that
15 indeed the convoys had been escorted by the UNPROFOR?
16 A. Most probably that's what I stated. According to the information
17 I had, they should have escorted the convoy. Whether they started
18 escorting it and then stopped or not, I don't know. I heard that they
19 should have escorted it. Whether they escorted it with the UNHCR, I
20 cannot say because I don't know.
21 Q. This is the statement which is still on display. I would like it
22 not to be broadcast. Could we see page 4 in the B/C/S version -- sorry,
23 in English, and page 6 in the B/C/S version.
24 Sir, it's right at the beginning, page 6 in B/C/S. You
25 stated, "[In English] I have to underline that there were UNPROFOR
1 representatives in the vehicles at the head and at the back of the convoy,
2 heading towards Kladanj."
3 [Interpretation] Can you confirm that the UNPROFOR vehicles were
4 at the front and at the back of the convoys going to Kladanj?
5 A. As far as I remember, and I have said so already, they were
6 leading the convoy. I don't know whether there were any at the back.
7 Whether they stopped driving along at the back, I don't remember.
8 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No further questions.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.
11 Who wishes to go next? We should have the break in three minutes'
12 time. So I think we can have it now. Who is going next after the break?
13 Ms. Nikolic, all right. We will have a 25-minute break starting
14 from now.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic. Ms. Nikolic is appearing for
18 Accused Nikolic.
19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good
20 afternoon. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] I only have one question to ask you. Listening
23 carefully to your testimony in the past few days, you testified to many
24 events in which you personally took part in the summer of 1995. You
25 testified to the situation in Potocari, Bratunac, you explained the order
1 of the minister of the interior of the Republika Srpska from July 1995.
2 What I would like to ask you, when you sum up all these events, do you
3 agree with me that the decisions regarding everything that ensued,
4 including the events in which you took part, were the results or the
5 consequences of a decision taken at a high political level?
6 A. I cannot comment on that, but I can say that most probably, yes,
7 it is so.
8 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Nikolic.
10 Who is next? Mr. Zivanovic.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will not cross-examine this witness, Your
12 Honour. Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Ostojic, or Mr. Meek.
14 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour. We have no questions of this
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
17 The Gvero Defence team.
18 MR. JOSSE: Likewise, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Haynes for Pandurevic.
20 MR. SARAPA: We don't have questions.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 Is there re-examination? Mr. Thayer.
23 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President, I do, and I will be as brief as
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:
2 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. Other than hearing about the incident at the Kravica hangar, did
5 you receive any information about any prisoners surrendering to or being
6 captured by Jahorina or special police brigade units along that road on
7 the 12th or the 13th of July?
8 A. I received information that along the road and around the road
9 something was happening, that there was a complicated situation. I would
10 like to know what was going on in that area at the time too.
11 Q. So just to clarify, based on that answer, is your answer that you
12 did not receive any information about prisoners surrendering or being
13 captured along that road other than what you testified about concerning
14 the prisoners at the Kravica hangar?
15 A. I received information that some were surrendering and some were
16 being taken prisoner, but I didn't know what -- what would happen -- what
17 happened afterward. Whether they were taken somewhere or whatever
18 happened to them. I didn't know.
19 Q. And is it your understanding that that information that you just
20 referred to that you received concerned those prisoners who ended up at
21 the Kravica hangar? Just to clarify.
22 A. Well, I don't know. I can't say, because I simply don't know
23 where they ended up. About the Kravica hangar, I have already said what I
24 have to say.
25 Q. Well, do you recall anything in particular at all about who gave
1 you this information or when, about prisoners surrendering or being
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
4 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, this is
5 the third time, three questions in a row asking for the same information
6 and he's coming back again for more clarification. Whenever the Defence
7 is doing cross-examination, my colleague gets up at first question saying,
8 "question asked and answered." We waited three times, I think maybe he
9 should move on to another line of questioning. Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: The last question, I may have agreed with you in
11 relation to the first and second, but this is seeking information as to
12 who gave him information.
13 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Exactly, Your Honours. I think
15 that this question has already been answered twice, only it was
16 differently phrased.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer. Do you wish to respond? I think
18 there is a very clear answer to that.
19 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour. I'm simply trying to identify,
20 when he is referring to information, what information he's talking about
21 and when he received it. I think the record, frankly, is just a little
22 unclear on that point, whether he received any information other than
23 information about the individuals at Kravica, and, if he did, when did he
24 receive that information.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: That changes it a little bit. I tried -- I tried to
1 explain why at least your last question was in order. And that was
2 precisely because you were seeking from the witness information as to who
3 had given him information; now you change it. Now you change it. So as
4 long as you stick to your last question, that is your last question as it
5 was before. Yeah.
6 So let's start with that. I mean, I don't think we should lose
7 much time on this, actually. It's very clear. First he answered that he
8 received information that some were surrendering, some were being -- and
9 he doesn't know anything else. Then he confirmed that he didn't know
10 where they ended up. Then you asked him who gave him the information that
11 he relayed to us. And you were stopped.
12 Now you're saying when you received this information and which
13 particular information, I think, which particular information we already
14 know. So please restrict your question to who gave him the information
15 and when he received that information.
16 MR. THAYER: Very well, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And we'll move ahead.
18 MR. THAYER:
19 Q. Sir, did you understand His Honour's clarification and
20 intervention there?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Do you think you can answer the question?
23 A. Could you please repeat the question?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: You've referred earlier on to receiving some
25 information that some of the Muslims were surrendering and some were being
1 taken prisoners, but you don't know what happened afterwards. Now, who
2 gave you this information? And when did you get this information?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't remember when I
4 received that information. If I mention a date I will say a lie. But I
5 know that that information reached me, but from what level, believe me, I
6 don't remember. Believe me, I really don't remember. I got such
7 information, and that's what I said.
8 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Let me ask just one
9 follow-up question and I'll move on.
10 Q. You testified about learning about this incident at the Kravica
11 warehouse soon after you believe it occurred. Other than that occasion
12 when you received information about something happening at the Kravica
13 warehouse, did you receive any other reports about any prisoners being
14 taken along the road on the 12th or 13th of July?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but this is a repetition. Move -- thank you,
16 Mr. Bourgon. I mean, I spared you a few words.
17 MR. THAYER: I'll move on, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please go ahead. Your previous question was
19 very clear because it was apart from what happened at Kravica, in Kravica.
20 MR. THAYER:
21 Q. Sir, page 9 at line 18 of today's transcript you were asked a
22 question about Mr. Borovcanin's being in the vicinity of Balkovici in the
23 Zvornik municipality from July 16th to July 18th. I want to ask you,
24 under the law, as my learned friend Mr. Stojanovic reviewed with you
25 yesterday, what was your understanding if MUP units were operating in
1 Balkovici in Zvornik municipality at that time, to which brigade would
2 those MUP units have been resubordinated?
3 A. The Zvornik Brigade.
4 Q. Now, you were asked a series of questions by I believe a couple of
5 my learned colleagues about your contacts with Momir Nikolic in Potocari.
6 I want to ask you if it would help your recollection to learn about the
7 testimony of a Dutch officer that this Trial Chamber has already heard.
8 If I read that back to you, would that refresh your recollection or help
9 your recollection at all about any contacts you may have had with
10 Mr. Momir Nikolic on that day?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these are questions
13 already asked by the Prosecutor in their examination-in-chief. I do not
14 think that this comes from the cross-examination at all.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: It comes from the examination because -- from the
16 cross-examination because you asked the witness and even confronted him
17 with previous statements of Momir Nikolic, as to whether he met Momir
18 Nikolic on the particular occasion that we spoke about. So Witness said
19 that he, as far as he could remember, he didn't. But he -- Mr. Thayer is
20 now seeking to refresh his memory, but it's perfectly in order. Let me
21 consult with my colleagues in case they think I am wrong.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. As you may have noticed, we've had a
24 lengthy discussion. Also weighing the different positions at law, and in
25 particular what also happened in examination, during the
1 examination-in-chief. I think we have come to -- not I think, we have
2 come to the conclusion that the question is perfectly in order. The
3 reason is that it arises mainly as a result of the witness being -- having
4 his memory tested again, and by Madam Fauveau, during her
5 cross-examination, which should open the way to a further question related
6 to that.
7 Yes, so go ahead, but if the witness doesn't remember, then we
8 close that chapter and we'll move ahead.
9 MR. THAYER: Absolutely, Mr. President. And if we may move into
10 private session for this one question, please.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, let's move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 8738-8740 redacted. Private session
9 [Open session]
10 MR. THAYER:
11 Q. Sir, do you recall being asked this afternoon about any water
12 tanks being brought into Potocari?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I believe your recollection was that there was one. I want to
15 show you a video clip that begins at 2 hours, 27 minutes and 40 seconds
16 and runs to 2 hours, 28 minutes flat. So it's an approximately 20-second
17 video clip.
18 [Videotape played]
19 MR. THAYER:
20 Q. I just want to ask you, sir, is that the water tank to which you
21 were referring in your answer, or was there another water tank that you
22 were recalling?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that it
25 would be only fair to specify the time relevant for this question, because
1 this video footage dates from the 13th of July. And this should be given
2 to the witness before he is supposed to answer, because the witness stated
3 that he wasn't there on the 13th of July.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's a very fair remark.
5 MR. THAYER: Just -- and I perfectly agree, Your Honour. With the
6 exception of the characterisation of his testimony about whether or not he
7 was on the 13th. That is a fair question.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course it is. Of course it is. On the other
9 hand, he also mentioned that he only saw one tank to his knowledge, so it
10 is also perfectly legitimate to ask him whether this could be the one that
11 he saw.
12 MR. THAYER:
13 Q. Did you understand the back and forth among His Honour and my
14 learned friend and myself, Witness?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can circumvent it in a very easy way,
16 whether he remembers the tank that he saw on the particular day when he
17 saw it to have the UN markings on it.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember, sir.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So he can't answer the other question that
20 you may have wished to put to him.
21 MR. THAYER:
22 Q. I want to show you one more video clip, sir, which you were --
23 well, we'll just show you the video clip and then we will proceed. This
24 is at 2 hours, 22 minutes, to 2 hours, 22 minutes, 40 seconds, again
25 another short clip. You were asked some questions, sir, concerning
1 separation of men. I believe you testified that you recall seeing a
2 column of men. And I want to show you a video clip.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. THAYER:
5 Q. Sir, do you -- do you recall being shown that video clip by the
6 investigator in 2000, during your interview?
7 A. I do remember.
8 Q. And do you recall being shown that in my office last week
10 A. I do remember.
11 Q. Now, aside from those two occasions when you were shown this video
12 segment, is it your testimony that you have any other independent
13 recollection of seeing any groups of separated men on the 12th or 13th of
15 A. I've already stated that I saw a separated group of men on the
16 12th or the 13th, and that there was General Mladic there and somebody
17 else, and this is what I said. I've testified to that.
18 Q. Okay. Just to clarify, when you refer to General Mladic and a
19 group of men, you're referring to your testimony concerning some men that
20 were gathered at a flat area alongside the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac
21 communication; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So, referring to what is depicted in this video clip, sir, is your
24 testimony that you recall seeing a group of Muslim men actually in a
25 column passing buses, or is it your testimony that you simply have seen
1 this video clip on two prior occasions?
2 A. To be frank, I can't remember in this respect. I see here that
3 men were separated, and as far as I know, at that time I did see the
4 movement of these men. And I saw them board the buses, but whether they
5 were separated or not, where they were headed, that I don't know, and I
6 know that I took no part in all that.
7 Q. Thank you, sir.
8 MR. THAYER: I have no further questions.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Thayer.
10 Sir, we've come to the end of your testimony because we don't have
11 any further questions for you. Our staff will assist you to facilitate
12 your return back home at the earliest. On behalf of the Tribunal, I wish
13 you -- I thank you for having come over to give testimony, and I wish you
14 a safe journey back home.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.
18 MR. THAYER: Your Honours, I believe all the parties have the
19 tender sheet. A couple of them may require just some explanation. The --
20 Your Honours may recall I actually showed a colour -- an original piece of
21 evidence thinking that would best help refresh his recollection. Because
22 it was original evidence, I had to have him mark a black and white copy of
23 that. What I have to tender to the Court is a colour copy of the original
24 piece of evidence unmarked to assist the Court in seeing what was actually
25 shown to him, to refresh his recollection. Plus we have the marked black
1 and white version that he marked with a black magic marker during his
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
4 First, I take it that, as Mr. Thayer stated, you all have received
5 a copy of the documents to be tendered through this Prosecution witness.
6 Are there any objections to any of them? We hear none. So they are all
7 admitted. I don't see any -- yeah. They are so all -- all admitted. And
8 the one under number 5 remains under seal. No, sorry. Okay. Are there
9 any of them -- yes, it's P02473 that remains under seal.
10 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now, let's take the -- and these clips that
12 you have made use of in your redirect.
13 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, those are all part of P02047, which is
14 already admitted. If it helps to save some time, I can represent to the
15 Court that we have no objections to the Borovcanin team's documents that
16 are on their tender sheet.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Are there any objections from any of the
18 other Defence teams to the documents that the Borovcanin Defence team
19 seeks to tender? Okay. We hear none. So they are all admitted. Those
20 marked to be kept under seal will remain under seal. I just want to make
21 sure. Okay. On the face of it, I done see any others that should be kept
22 under seal, but please check.
23 Madam Fauveau, do you wish to tender any documents?
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that there are no other documents to be
1 tendered. So we can move to the next witness. I see Mr. Elderkin here,
3 Yes, Mr. Josse.
4 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I return briefly to the matter that
5 I think was raised in private session by my learned friend Mr. Bourgon,
6 the objection to the re-examination. The Chamber understandably said it
7 made no determination in relation to those various submissions. If the
8 matter is going to be considered in due course, can we be permitted to
9 make some submissions in relation to this particular issue? The position
10 is that so far as that witness was concerned, we had no real interest,
11 frankly, or standing therefor. But generally, we do take a stance in
12 relation to this. And the matter we would suggest, could be aired at a
13 convenient moment sometime in the future.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
15 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, the it was your Prosecution's
16 understanding, frankly that that general issue had been decided by the
17 Chamber previously. If the Court desires, we can make submissions as
18 well. I don't think we were doing anything that was out of the practise
19 of the Trial Chamber thus far, so I'm not sure if -- if there is a -- a
20 need for further filings on this issue. But we remain at --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: As you may have noticed, we took some time to
22 discuss, and there is further ground for -- ground for further
23 discussions. So we'll come back to you whether we require further
24 submissions on it or not.
25 MR. THAYER: Any guidance would be appreciated.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: For the time being, let's not take more of our court
2 time and proceed with the next witness.
3 And before he comes in, and before we proceed, you will recall
4 that we discussed him briefly when we were dealing with the Prosecution
5 motion to convert 12 witnesses to 92 ter witnesses, and I had a
6 confirmation then from both sides, from all sides, actually, that as
7 regards the next witness there was no controversy, no disagreement, there
8 was no objection to have him converted into a 92 ter witness, but going
9 through the transcripts of the 1st and 8th of March, I noticed, or rather
10 we noticed, because we've been discussing this, that we never decided that
11 motion in relation to the next witness, Peccerelli. So we are deciding
12 that motion now, acceding -- granting the motion. The rest of the motion,
13 as it regards the 11 other witnesses remains -- remains with the Trial
14 Chamber, and we will come back to you when we are in a position to decide it.
15 Mr. Elderkin, I suppose you would be taking -- leading this
17 MR. ELDERKIN: That is correct, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon.
19 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. There was an issue that I
20 wished to raise before the next witness to ensure that we could maybe have
21 some guidance from the Trial Chamber before the end of the day.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you want to make the submission in his
24 MR. BOURGON: It doesn't matter because it's something technical
25 about the Trial Chamber's decision dated the 6th March, and that is the
1 decision regarding the Prosecution's Rule 94 bis notice, a decision that
2 was rendered by the Trial Chamber on the 6th of March. It is our --
3 today, it being the 13th of March, this is our dead-line to raise
4 certification or to request certification of this decision. And we have
5 been actively considering the matter amongst the Defence teams.
6 There are things that we are not clear about the decision, and as
7 it stands now we would prefer, instead of asking for certification, to ask
8 the Trial Chamber for some clarification and guidance concerning this
9 decision, and we would like to have a further delay of two days before we
10 can file this in writing to ask clarification concerning this decision.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I personally have no problems. No problem. We have
12 no -- no problems on our part.
13 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. This was a request made
14 on behalf of all teams.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, it's fair enough.
16 MR. BOURGON: And we will file this request two days from now and
17 then we don't know yet if it's going to be at that time a joint motion or
18 a partly joined motion. Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Bourgon.
20 Let's bring the witness in.
21 Yes, Mr. Elderkin.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, while we're waiting
23 for the witness to come in, I just would clarify the procedure I will
24 follow with the witness. Given his status, both as an expert and under 92
25 ter, I will merely ask about five or 10 minutes' of questions in direct.
1 I'm not going to actually read out a summary of his written report, which
2 is already in evidence as an expert statement.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: You've got the Chamber's authorisation to do that,
5 or to proceed that way.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.
8 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal, with which you're
10 familiar. Before you start your testimony, could I kindly ask you to make
11 the solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: Shall I raise my hand?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you don't need to.
14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
15 whole truth and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: FREDY PECCERELLI
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please take a seat, make yourself
18 comfortable. You're familiar with the procedure. You are a 92 ter
19 witness, and perhaps that has already been explained to you. Mr. Elderkin
20 will put some questions to you.
21 If you have ...
22 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
24 Examination by Mr. Elderkin:
25 Q. May I start by asking you to say your name, please?
1 A. My name is Fredy Peccerelli.
2 Q. And what is your profession?
3 A. I'm a forensic anthropologist. I'm the executive director of the
4 Guatemalan Forensic Anthropology Foundation.
5 Q. Can you give us a brief summary of your qualifications, bearing in
6 mind that we have already seen a copy of your CV.
7 A. For the last 12 years, I have worked in the exhumation, recovery,
8 and analysis of human remains, mostly from the mass graves that are a
9 result of Guatemalan human-armed conflict, and as a result from that I
10 have gained experience in locating graves, also in analysis of the
11 remains. My educational background is a bachelor's degree in anthropology
12 and a master's course in forensic and biological anthropology.
13 Q. Could you tell us where you studied?
14 A. City University of New York, Brooklyn college, and Bournemouth
15 University in the United Kingdom.
16 Q. Could you tell us about the first time you worked in Bosnia, when
17 was that?
18 A. That was in 1997, in a site called Brcko, which was close to the
19 border with Croatia. It was, I believe, the first ICTY team, and
20 together, myself from Guatemala and a couple others from Peru, the United
21 Kingdom, and the United States as well.
22 Q. And again, after that, I understand that you worked in Bosnia on a
23 number of other occasions?
24 A. Yes, I was called back to also contribute with the recovery of
25 human remains in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1998. Zeleni Jadar, for example,
1 was one of the sites I worked that year.
2 Q. Turning now to the work that you did on Srebrenica-related graves
3 in 2000, could you tell us about the role you had?
4 A. During the 2000 season I was named deputy senior director of the
5 recovery team, or the archaeology team. In the absence of Professor
6 Richard Wright, I was to head the team and work specifically in the site
7 called Lazete 1.
8 Q. We've seen your Lazete 1 report, but perhaps you could tell us
9 briefly what your findings were concerning that grave site?
10 A. In that specific site we found a grave of about 15 metres in
11 length by about five metres in width, of a depth of about a metre 50, that
12 contained about 127 bodies, human bodies. We also found two bodies in a
13 ditch nearby. One of the things that I remember clearly from the site is
14 that about 89 of the bodies had pieces of material around their heads,
15 some of them covering their eyes directly - we called those probable
16 blindfolds - and overall from that site we recover, I think, 735 items of
17 evidence, 129 of those were bodies, and the rest were artefacts and some
18 body parts.
19 Q. And were you involved in the autopsy work on those human remains
20 at the mortuary?
21 A. No, not at that time. At that time my task was specifically to
22 find the grave, recover its contents, make sure that the chain of custody
23 was intact, and then place the bodies in a -- in a container, in a
24 refrigerated container, and send the bodies down to the morgue in
1 Q. If I can just ask you about the nature of the grave itself rather
2 than the remains therein. Could you tell if that grave had been disturbed
3 prior to your excavation?
4 A. Well, that grave was -- initially we could tell -- well, we
5 started by scraping the surface, and eventually, as in most graves that
6 weigh found in Bosnia, a blue-ish yellow -- a blue-ish greenish colour
7 clay allowed us to find this grave. We found the outline and we could see
8 it was irregular in some points, but we found a concentration of bodies,
9 three. Two of them were separated and in those two areas of bodies that
10 were separated you could tell that there was only body parts of the soil
11 fill was a bit different, and it was clear to us at that time that the
12 bodies that were there had been removed. So there was two events, the
13 event of the initial excavation of the grave, and then a -- another event
14 where some of the bodies were removed from the grave.
15 Q. Can I ask you now, did you work on any other Srebrenica-related
16 graves in the summer?
17 A. Yes, while I was there I was asked to also take a look at the site
18 that was just on the other side of the railway in Lazete as well; that
19 would be Lazete 2.
20 Q. And when you were asked to work on that site, did you know that
21 was the first time that Lazete 2 had been excavated?
22 A. I was told in 1996 an ICTY PHR, Physicians for Human Rights,
23 recovery team had exhumed some bodies from the area.
24 Q. Can you, the same as you did with your brief summary of Lazete 1,
25 could you tell us briefly what you found in your excavation of the Lazete
1 2 grave?
2 A. Well, at Lazete 2 we recovered 16 bodies. I believe 26 body
3 parts, and even more evidence than Lazete 1; we recovered 872 items of
4 evidence, most of those being shell casings. We did encounter the fact
5 that the grave had been excavated several times before we excavated it.
6 In other words, there was an initial excavation, then there was a robbing
7 event when some bodies were extracted from this grave, and this -- this
8 could be seen again by the presence of body parts and also by the presence
9 of truncated bodies at edges of the robbing areas. But also there had
10 been two excavations within the big grave. I think those -- we call
11 Lazete 2A and Lazete 2B. The entire grave was about 38 metres in length,
12 about four metres in width, and about a metre fifty in depth as well. But
13 it was a very big grave.
14 Q. And, as again with Lazete 1, is it correct that the division of
15 responsibility between yourselves and the pathologists in the morgue were
16 such that you just handed over the human remains and didn't participate in
17 the autopsy work?
18 A. Yes, we followed the same exact procedure. We exhumed the bodies,
19 put them inside body bags, and then placed them side a refrigerated
20 container, which was later taken to the Visoko, the morgue.
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: I have to further questions, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Elderkin.
24 I have -- Ms. Condon?
25 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, one moment.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Elderkin, have we received the report from the
4 witness on Lazete 2?
5 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, no, you haven't. This report -- I
6 could perhaps ask Mr. Peccerelli to explain, but since this report was
7 only prepared very recently, then it's been disclosed to the Defence as
8 part of Mr. Peccerelli's materials but it is not something that we have
9 proposed to admit as an expert's report. So you will have only have, I
10 think, the Lazete 1 report.
11 JUDGE KWON: Then to that extent -- how can Mr. Peccerelli be a 92
12 ter witness?
13 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I understand the 92 ter application
14 would allow his written evidence on the Lazete 1 report to come in as his
15 92 ter basis, and then my brief direct examination would be the entire
16 body of evidence presented on Lazete 2, and then any further questions,
17 particularly on that topic, from the Defence would --
18 JUDGE KWON: I'm happy with that. So as far as Lazete 2 is
19 concerned, this witness gave evidence live, we can take it that way.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: If that's acceptable to Your Honours, that's all
21 that we propose on Lazete 2, exactly.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We can live with that, Mr. Elderkin, unless
24 we hear objections from any of the Defence teams.
25 What happened to my -- I've lost everything here. I lost my
2 Yes, Mr. Bourgon. I can still follow on the other.
3 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Of course we were
4 perfectly able to continue the way it is right now, understanding that he
5 has now testified on the Lazete 2 report, live.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, that's --
7 MR. BOURGON: Of course, later on when we object to the report,
8 because there will be no need because he testified live, then this will be
9 our -- this is the position we risk taking. Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Elderkin.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, having said I had finished my
12 examination-in-chief, I wonder whether I might ask to be permitted to have
13 one more question of the witness. It's a very short question, but I'm in
14 your hands.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon.
16 Madam Fauveau.
17 Yes, go ahead, Mr. Elderkin.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: Many thanks.
19 Q. Mr. Peccerelli, if I could just ask you, when you mentioned the
20 prior excavation of Lazete 2 by the PHR team, do you recall who it was who
21 led that team?
22 A. Yes, Dr. Bill Haglund.
23 MR. ELDERKIN: That's all, Your Honours. Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much. Now, we have on our list that
25 the Nikolic Defence team, the Gvero defence team, and the Borovcanin
1 Defence team do not wish to cross-examine this witness. Can we have a
2 confirmation of that?
3 MR. JOSSE: Yes, from Gvero team.
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, for the Nikolic
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Same for Borovcanin team.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, so that's confirmed. Now, that leaves us with
8 the Pandurevic team, the Miletic team, Beara, and Popovic. Who is going
9 to go first? Ms. Condon.
10 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examination by Ms. Condon:
12 Q. Mr. Peccerelli, you've indicated that your training is as a
13 forensic anthropologist. Is that correct?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. But in your capacity on these particular sites you were operating
16 as an archaeologist?
17 A. I was operating as a deputy senior archaeologist, that's correct.
18 Q. Perhaps can you assist me to determine which particular function
19 were you performing on the sites in 2000, were you an anthropologist or
20 were you an archaeologist?
21 A. Well, in the United States archaeologist is part of anthropology.
22 It's one of the four subfields, so it depends the way you look at it. I
23 was performing the task of recovering bodies, making sure that we were
24 documenting the entire site, and, although I describe myself as a forensic
25 anthropologist, I have worked on hundreds of recoveries of sites in
2 Q. Well, thank you for that. Perhaps specifically insofar as your
3 role or your training as an anthropologist is concerned, that enables to
4 engage in a process of estimating the age of remains, does it not?
5 A. In the proper setting, it does. Within a morgue it would, of
7 Q. And given what your answer has been, that you primarily were there
8 to recover bodies, I take it that you engaged in no process of aging the
9 remains that you found here. Is that correct?
10 A. In the field that would be very difficult so we couldn't do it.
11 Q. Well -- and you then subsequently didn't have any role at the
12 morgue in that regard either?
13 A. No, I did not. I -- the bodies were sent down to the pathology
14 and anthropology team that were in the morgue.
15 Q. All right. The other issue I wanted to ask you about is, there is
16 also, is there not, in forensic anthropology, a practice or a formula
17 known as -- whereby you estimate the minimum number of people in a -- in a
19 A. Minimum number of individuals, yes.
20 Q. Yes. Well, tell me, how does that work? How does that process
21 work? And obviously bearing in mind that we are not anthropologists here,
22 can you explain it in very simple terms?
23 A. Well, very simply what you would do is you would take single bones
24 and you would count to see which ones are repeated the most. For
25 example --
1 Q. Just -- can I stop you there. When you say "single bones," do you
2 engage in a process of determining bones from the left-hand side of the
3 body or the right-hand side of the body or not?
4 A. Yes, you would not only determine side but you might determine --
5 you might want to subdivide that into thirds, for example, the proximal
6 third of a left humerus in comparison to a mid-third of a right humerus,
7 for example. So you would then basically count to see which bone or
8 fragment of bone appears the most amount of times, to determine the
9 minimum number of individuals.
10 Q. And here, did you engage in that process yourself?
11 A. No, once again, this is not something you would do in a field
12 environment, this is something you would do in a morgue. So we did not.
13 Q. Okay. Now, I just want to -- and obviously you've been asked
14 about your role at Lazete 2, but you also were involved in the year 2000
15 at the site at Ravnice, weren't you?
16 A. Initially, yeah. I was there at the beginning.
17 Q. Can you be more specific, what time of the year were you there?
18 A. This was after Lazete 2 and while we were beginning to look for
19 the graves at Glogova, if I can recall correctly, it was -- it must have
20 been mid-August, the end of August.
21 Q. Now, you, no doubt, took notes and the like when you were at --
22 performing your tasks at Ravnice?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And did you ever produce a report in relation to your findings at
25 that site?
1 A. No, I did not. That site was cancelled, if I'm not mistaken when
2 the transition was made between myself and Professor Richard Wright.
3 Q. All right. Well, just so that we clarify this, you are not
4 suggesting that Richard Wright was, in fact, responsible for Ravnice after
5 you, are you?
6 A. Well, in fact, yes. Since I was his deputy, when he came back, he
7 was a senior forensic archaeologist on site. In reality, the report
8 similar in the case, as in the case of Lazete 2, was never requested, and
9 I was told later that that site was finished or handed over to -- to the
10 Bosnian commission, if I'm not mistaken.
11 Q. All right. Well, and just when you say that -- and we'll take
12 this step by step. You say that with Lazete 2 a report was never
13 requested. Is that correct?
14 A. It was requested initially, and then it was never requested after
16 Q. Okay. Well, initially, who made the request?
17 A. Dean Manning, if I'm not mistaken, an investigator.
18 Q. An investigator.
19 A. Yeah, at the ICTY.
20 Q. And he withdrew that request, this is in relation to Lazete 2.
21 A. No. He then received the Lazete 1 report and they were very happy
22 with it and we never spoke it again.
23 Q. All right. But we make sure did -- when you say he then received
24 the Lazete 1 report, do you mean your Lazete 1 report or Bill Haglund's
25 Lazete 1 report? Because there is obviously going to be some confusion
2 A. Bill Haglund only worked at Lazete 2. I was the only one who
3 worked at Lazete 1 and then also worked at Lazete 2.
4 Q. Now, in relation to Ravnice, again, was it Dean Manning who made
5 the initial request for the report from you?
6 A. I don't recall, but it must have been.
7 Q. All right. Well, I want to take you first of all just to some
8 aspects of his report on Ravnice, okay? This is Dean Manning.
9 MS. CONDON: Perhaps, Your Honour, if the witness could be shown
10 P648. And if we go to page 9 of that document. That's page 9 in English,
11 hopefully the B/C/S will be the same. Do you want me to -- P648. Okay.
12 You have that up there at the left of your screen, Mr. Peccerelli.
13 You see the heading there?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Just before I do take you to his report, would you agree with me
16 if I suggested to you that it would be quite inaccurate to describe
17 Ravnice as a grave?
18 A. Yes, I would. It was not a grave.
19 Q. Not a grave at all, it was -- it's more correct, isn't it, to say
20 that it was simply bodies found on an embankment, on a steep slope?
21 A. It would be surface find of human remains.
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Most likely a dump site.
24 Q. Yeah, yeah. So if we then go to what Mr. Manning's comments about
25 this -- this grave, it's -- can we take it that whatever anthropological
1 or archaeological information that is in Dean Manning's report, he has
2 gleaned that from you?
3 A. Not necessarily. If he was at the site, he could -- because of
4 his experience, he could probably come up with some of these explanations
6 Q. All right. But he's a policeman?
7 A. Yes, he is.
8 Q. Yes. He has no --
9 A. Investigator.
10 Q. -- anthropological or archaeological training himself?
11 A. No, he doesn't.
12 Q. So can I ask you this: When you were present at Ravnice, was Dean
13 Manning there?
14 A. I don't recall. I don't.
15 Q. Okay. And there is no other archaeological -- there is no other
16 anthropologist or archaeologists that were responsible for Ravnice in this
17 period in 2000 that we're talking about, apart from yourself?
18 A. No. Richard Wright.
19 Q. Well, we'll get to what you say about Richard Wright's involvement
20 here. Just insofar as what you know when you were there, you were the
21 lead archaeologist; is that correct?
22 A. While I was there, yes.
23 Q. Yes, okay. Now, I want to particularly take you to what Dean
24 Manning says at the -- in the first paragraph. The second last line he
25 makes the observation, "Bodies were caught up in trees and a fence along
1 the middle of the slope."
2 Do you see that there?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Yeah. Can you perhaps tell me a little bit more about that?
5 A. I'm sorry, but I don't recall a fence. I do have a recall of
6 trees and as the bodies were rolling down the slope, some of them got
7 caught up in some trees.
8 Q. All right. And he then went on to make the observation underneath
9 the heading "aerial imagery" on the second line, "It is believed that this
10 site is connected with the Srebrenica deaths; however, further examination
11 of the site is necessary."
12 Do you see that there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, before you arrived at this site were you told by Dean Manning
15 that it was believed that the remains at this site were persons executed
16 in relation to Srebrenica? Is that what you were informed?
17 A. I don't recall that. I was told that those bodies might belong to
18 people that were killed inside of a warehouse, if I'm not mistaken.
19 Q. All right. So you were given specific information about people
20 being -- having met their death in that manner. But when Dean Manning
21 makes that observation that further examination of the site was necessary
22 in order to confirm what was originally thought, is that as a result of
23 any observations you made about the state of the remains?
24 A. Well, the remains were skeletonised, and I think the proper thing
25 would have been to recover all the remains while we were there.
1 Q. But that wasn't done?
2 A. Not while I was there. I was -- Professor Richard Wright returned
3 and -- when I left. I found out later that the site was stopped, and as I
4 told you earlier, handed over to the Bosnian commission, if I'm not
6 Q. All right. Well, were you ever, in the context of your
7 professional capacity at Ravnice, were you ever asked to provide an
8 opinion to Dean Manning about how you considered these persons to have met
9 their death?
10 A. No.
11 Q. No. Was there anything about the observations you made at the
12 site that caused you to consider that those skeletal remains were there as
13 a result of conflict or a combat situation?
14 A. I couldn't tell either. What we -- what we found were human
15 skeletal remains dumped on a slope on -- off a dirt track. It's not
16 something you expect to find, but I couldn't say whether it was combat
17 related or any -- otherwise.
18 Q. And if, as you know, this was circumstances where there were no
19 blindfolds located on the bodies, were there? I'm reading from Dean
20 Manning's report, so --
21 A. Is it --
22 Q. It's at the bottom of the report, if you have a look --
23 A. If that's what it says, then --
24 Q. You accept that?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. That no ligatures were located either?
2 A. That's what it says, yeah.
3 Q. Yeah. So in those circumstances, if that scenario was put to you
4 in terms of these people having met their death in a conflict or combat
5 situation, you certainly couldn't exclude that, could you?
6 A. I couldn't --
7 Q. As a possible?
8 A. I couldn't exclude either.
9 Q. Sorry?
10 A. I couldn't exclude either, whether it was combat or just a
11 conflict situation. I mean it's -- you cannot just say that because the
12 bodies didn't have blindfolds or ligatures that they were one thing or the
13 other. I mean, either way, those bodies -- those bodies, they died
14 somehow. We would have to look into it further, not only in the recovery
15 aspect of it's about but also in the morgue before being able to make a
16 determination, a more educated determination.
17 Q. I appreciate that. Can I ask you this then: Is it -- that
18 observation that Dean Manning makes, where he says that it's believed that
19 the site's connected to Srebrenica, but further examination it necessary,
20 does that accord with your observations of the site?
21 A. Well, my observations of the site, that site or any other site,
22 were not to the extent of trying to link the bodies to a specific event.
23 I think in the sense that Dean Manning is speaking, he is speaking as an
24 investigator, and in that sense he had all the information about trying to
25 link all these different graves to possible events.
1 In my experience in working in Bosnia, I was always asked to
2 recover, find the graves, recover the bodies, and document the
4 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to work backwards. Move away from
5 Ravnice. And in particular, I want to ask you about Lazete 1. Is it
6 possible, from an anthropological point of view, to date graves, or grave
7 sites? Is that -- you understand what my question is?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Archaeologically, yes, there are methods to date organic
11 components within the grave. What is usually done in more recent graves
12 is you look at the context of the grave, for example, coins, maybe
13 newspapers or any publications with the date on them, and from there you
14 might make an estimation of the time.
15 Q. But you're -- what you say is from inference, from the process of
16 drawing inferences from material found in the grave. That's one thing
17 that you're talking about. Because Professor Wright's already given
18 evidence here, and I just want to ask if you agree with what he said,
19 which was: He said it's technically not possible to date graves using the
20 ordinary methods available to archaeology. That was his evidence.
21 A. Well, like I mentioned, if you can -- if you find artefacts within
22 the context, it is a viable method. I do understand that it is not
23 something that is used ordinarily in these types of graves but if you want
24 an estimate, you can do it that way.
25 Q. But to be exact, it's impossible.
1 A. Yes. I mean --
2 Q. All right. Now, your assessment of Lazete 1 was that it was a
3 primary disturbed grave. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Yes. Tell me, what are the indications of whether or not a grave
6 can be considered a secondary grave? What do you usually look for?
7 A. In a secondary grave?
8 Q. Mm-hmm.
9 A. Well, we look for most of its contents to be non-articulated human
10 remains. Usually --
11 Q. By that you mean, sorry, disjointed bodies parts?
12 A. Yes, basically disjointed body parts, many, many loose bones.
13 Q. Anything else?
14 A. Umm --
15 Q. What about, sorry, can I suggest something to you?
16 A. Please go ahead.
17 Q. What about foreign -- what about soil that's foreign to the area
18 in which you are conducting the exhumation, is that an indication, or
19 could be an indication?
20 A. Of course. If you find foreign soil that isn't natural to a
21 specific area, it might be inferred as well that it was transported there
22 from someplace else, along with the contents of -- or the fill that was
23 within the primary grave.
24 Q. All right. So if I could take you, please --
25 MS. CONDON: This is P02459, Your Honour, at page 15.
1 Q. This is your first report for Lazete 1. And page 15. That's it.
2 Now, I think there's two English versions there. Okay.
3 If I can just direct your attention to the final paragraph of
4 that -- of your report. If you can just have a read of that to yourself.
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, that first observation that you make there is in relation to
8 the quality of the soil, and you do make the observation that it's
9 possibly foreign soil introduced to the area of Lazete 1?
10 A. No.
11 Q. No? That's not what you're saying?
12 A. No, no, no. What the difference is, is that in the primary grave,
13 the soil had been compacting and -- under the same conditions for the same
14 amount of time. During this -- in the other parts of the grave, the soil
15 was taken out and most likely mixed again with topsoil before it was
16 filled again. So that difference in time period and the difference in the
17 consistency of the soil can be seen because it was removed, not that it
18 was introduced from someplace else.
19 Q. Not that it was foreign --
20 A. No.
21 Q. -- and introduced?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MS. CONDON: Now, Your Honour, I literally have one or two more
25 questions and then I will conclude.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
2 MS. CONDON:
3 Q. You then go on to make observations about the robbing areas and
4 you then make an estimation. Do you see that in the further part of the
5 paragraph? You say, "If 127 bodies were exhumed from approximately 65 per
6 cent of the grave, I estimate that a potential 68 bodies could have been
7 removed during LZ01."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, how do you make an estimate like that?
11 A. You would take the amount of area and volume that the other bodies
12 occupy within the grave and then calculate if the same was to be true in
13 those two areas. Then that would hold true.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. If the same wasn't, then it wouldn't.
16 Q. All right. So it's fair to say, is it not, that that conclusion
17 that you draw there is just an entire -- it's entirely as a result of
18 presumption on your part?
19 A. Well, it's --
20 Q. You have to make presumptions in order to do it?
21 A. Yes. I mean -- yes.
22 Q. You agree with that?
23 A. Yeah, yeah.
24 Q. And just so that I am -- clarify with you, that number of 68
25 bodies, that didn't eventually find its way into any numerical estimation
1 that you gave to an investigator?
2 A. I never spoke to an investigator after I presented the reports.
3 Q. All right. But just so that -- so whenever you provided numbers
4 of -- of bodies that were recovered in your report, of Lazete 1, that's
5 the only one that I've asked you about, the 127 bodies that you speak of,
6 they were complete bodies. Is that correct?
7 A. We counted them as bodies. Some of them were truncated bodies,
8 and there were also body parts.
9 Q. All right. Well, is the 127 bodies, is that the result of a
10 minimum number of persons calculation, or is it simply what -- the
11 calculation you made as a result of your involvement at the site? That's
12 what I'm asking you.
13 A. The 127 number is the number of body sheets that were filled
14 within the grave. In other words, if a body was more than half complete
15 we assigned it a body number. It didn't have to be a complete body to be
16 given a body number. On the other hand, if there was loose bones that
17 might be able to give us information for identification purposes then
18 those would be handed body part numbers, but in no way is that an
19 inference of a minimum number of individuals in that grave.
20 Q. All right.
21 MS. CONDON: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I have no further
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a 25-minute break starting from now.
24 Thank you.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.49 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 6.20 p.m.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek.
3 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. -- is it Peccerelli or Pecerelli?
6 A. Peccerelli.
7 Q. Excuse me if I mispronounce it. First off, I just want to ask you
8 about the fact that you have testified that in the last 12 years of's work
9 in the recovery, exhumation, as a forensic anthropologist in Guatemala and
10 elsewhere. Is that correct, sir?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And you have -- you have done a lot of work in those years on digs
13 that concern humanitarian issues. Is that a fact?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. And then you've also done digs such as for the -- this Tribunal,
16 which involve not only humanitarian issues but possibly criminal
17 investigations, correct?
18 A. All the -- the graves that we investigated in Guatemala are also
19 for criminal investigations.
20 Q. Okay. And in your field as a forensic anthropologist dealing with
21 these types of exhumations and recoveries, who do you believe to be the
22 highest expert in this field in the world?
23 A. Personally who do I believe?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Well, I've been fortunate to have had teachings of Dr. Clyde Snow.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. I want to ask you a question, if I
2 might, in regards to the dating of graves themselves. I think that you
3 testified just recently that you believe that from an anthropological
4 point of view, you -- it is possible to date a grave site?
5 A. As I mentioned earlier, contextually within archaeology, if
6 something is placed stratographically within a grave and you find it
7 associated to some other find within the grave you can tell something
8 about the time.
9 Q. All right. And doctor, I don't want to try to jump around, but
10 I'm going to have to, I've been asked to try to finish you up so you can
11 fly elsewhere tomorrow morning. I'm going to talk a minute about what you
12 call Lazete 2 site.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Okay. And as you may or may not know, we've just been given
15 information about that very recently by the Office of the Prosecutor. But
16 in any event, on page 16 of your report you state there were -- and please
17 go ahead and get that, if you'd like, find that.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. You say that -- I believe this is a conclusion that there were
20 "four excavations that were detected at site Lazete 2, including current
21 ICTY investigation: 1. You have put down original grave (between July
22 5th and July 27th, 1995)".
23 Is that correct, sir?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Now, can you tell me, please, how you came up with the beginning
1 date of July 5th, 1995?
2 A. From an aerial image that I was given, where I think it is on
3 page -- let me find it. 11. There's also an -- it's also clearer in the
4 Lazete 1 report. It's the same image, because these two sites are so
5 close to each other. I was given these images with these dates showing no
6 disturbance on July 5th and then showing two clear disturbances on the
7 sites where we located the graves on July 27. I thereby infer that
8 between those dates is when those disturbances occurred.
9 Q. Okay. Doctor, you just stated that the July 5th was an aerial
10 image showing no disturbed earth, correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And then you said showing two clear disturbances on the site where
13 we located the graves on July 27th. Maybe I misunderstood, but you didn't
14 locate the grave on July 27th, but --
15 A. No, we located the grave later in 2000, but that date of the
16 picture is July 27th.
17 Q. Now, to be -- so two questions. First off, the reason that you
18 would have put that down would have been information given to you by the
19 Office of the Prosecutor, correct? The aerial images?
20 A. I was given these images, yes.
21 Q. By the Office of the Prosecutor, correct?
22 A. By the investigators.
23 Q. Of the Office of the Prosecutor?
24 A. Yeah, I --
25 Q. Okay. Second off, how many other aerial images were you shown
1 besides the two that you have put down on page 11?
2 A. The other ones are the ones in the Lazete 1 report. It may be the
3 same ones, if you allow me to look at that. On page 11 of the Lazete 1
4 report. There's two more images of Lazete 1, and these four images are
5 the four images I was shown.
6 Q. Again, by the investigator for the Office of the Prosecutor?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. You indicated that your first trip to Bosnia was in 1997; is that
9 correct? For Brcko?
10 A. Brcko, that's correct.
11 Q. And you mentioned that, a number of different people from
12 different countries, who from the United States was along with you that
13 you can recall on that site?
14 A. Klirkoff [phoen] if I don't -- mistaken, and Becky Saunders, from
15 the United States.
16 Q. And is that the site that was close to Vukovar?
17 A. I don't know where Vukovar is.
18 Q. Is that the site that Clyde Snow originally discovered in 1993 or
19 so and they had to cover the skulls back up?
20 A. Vukovar is the site that Clyde Snow discovered; Brcko, I believe
22 Q. Okay. Then it's my understanding that while you are in Bosnia
23 again in the year 2000 to look at Lazete 1, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All of a sudden it came to someone's attention, your attention or
1 who's attention, that there was a problem with what had been called Lazete
2 2 site?
3 A. Well, I was told that the -- since we had time that they wanted me
4 to re-excavate Lazete 2 because there was rumour that somebody had -- had
5 been left there.
6 Q. Okay. And if somebody -- you mean some bodies?
7 A. Some bodies, excuse me.
8 Q. That's fine. Who would have left those bodies there, to your
10 A. It would have had to have been the ICTY PHR exhumation team during
11 the 1996 exhumation.
12 Q. And can you tell this Trial Chamber who was the coordinator and
13 the head forensic archaeologist for that team?
14 A. Dr. Bill Haglund.
15 Q. Thank you. Would it be a fair statement that you inherited this
16 mess of Lazete 2 that Bill Haglund had created in 1998?
17 A. Well, I don't know if I would put it that way, but I would
18 definitely say that I had to -- during the re-excavation of site, it was
19 noted that the site was a lot larger than originally thought.
20 Q. Now, have you, doctor, since then, and since your excavation of
21 Lazete 2, and we're going to call it 2C, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Have you ever had a chance to speak directly with Dr. Haglund
24 about this site?
25 A. We spoke briefly in Seattle, but not specifically. He just knew
1 that I had to go back in there and he just said there was security issues,
2 and that was it.
3 Q. He just said there were security issues and that's it?
4 A. Well, yeah, it wasn't something that I was going discuss with him
5 in detail because I knew that -- I mean I had to write a report sooner or
6 later so I just wanted him to know that I had been ordered to -- or asked
7 to investigate Lazete 2 site, and, as of professional courtesy, I wanted
8 him to know that it was me that was doing it, it was I.
9 Q. And, Doctor, would it be it fair statement that when you did speak
10 with him briefly in Seattle and it was something that you did not want to
11 discuss in detail with him, it was because it was sort of -- it was more
12 than sort of -- but it was actually an embarrassment for Mr. Haglund to
13 have left this site in the condition that he did, as a professional?
14 A. You'll have to ask him, I guess.
15 Q. I will, but I'm now asking you because you are an expert witness,
17 A. There are circumstances where you can excavate graves partially.
18 I mean, as you mentioned, if there were security issues, that might be one
19 of them. You're not supposed to risk a living person to recover dead
21 Q. Are you aware of any other issues that might have complicated
22 Mr. Haglund's excavation of this site back in 1998 besides security? I'm
23 not speaking -- I'm not asking you that from the grounds of what he told
24 you, but what others told you.
25 A. I was not part of any of the excavations before 1997, and no one
1 has ever told me anything else, other than during that -- the 2000 year,
2 they said that there was somebody that mentioned that there were some
3 bodies left behind.
4 Q. In your testimony earlier today you mentioned chain of custody,
5 correct, of items?
6 A. Yeah, that's correct.
7 Q. Chain of custody is very important in your work, is it not?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Okay. And the way I understand your analysis on Lazete 2, there
10 had been left there, by the team headed by Mr. Haglund over 500 and some
11 pieces of evidence, excluding body parts, correct?
12 A. Oh --
13 Q. Sorry, 830 isolated artefacts recovered from the grave?
14 A. Yeah, from the surface and around the grave area.
15 Q. Okay. Some of those you would agree with me, could have helped to
16 determine the identity of the bodies, correct?
17 A. Mostly they were show cases. Most of the evidence we found, we
18 found within the grave. I would have to look specifically if there were
19 any artefacts that would help in the identification process.
20 Q. I can appreciate that. But, for example, you found eight
21 wristwatches, correct?
22 A. I believe so.
23 Q. Okay. And those wrist watches, had they been found in 1998, could
24 have helped identify those bodies and helped the family members and loved
25 ones of the deceased to know what happened or at least know where their
1 loved ones were, correct?
2 A. Well, personal belongings can help to give us a hypothesis for
3 identification, but usually an identification would not be made just on
4 personal belongings.
5 Q. No, I understand that. But is it true, sir, that in the former
6 Yugoslavia that there weren't a lot of dental records, for example; there
7 weren't a lot of medical charts, for example; there weren't a lot of DNA
8 samples that you could use, for example; and that this wasn't a
9 characteristic site in that aspect?
10 A. I don't understand the question.
11 Q. Okay. Isn't it true that in the former Yugoslavia when you're
12 excavating these graves from 1998 onwards, that even if you found, for
13 example, a skull that had a full set of teeth, it likely there was no
14 dental records to connect that skull with a certain person?
15 A. Yeah, that is correct.
16 Q. Okay. So in those sort of circumstances then it became more
17 important to get the artefacts that -- that the clothing, the people wore,
18 any IDs they might have had on them, any wristwatches they might have had
19 on them, what kind of shoes they were wearing, so their last -- relatives
20 could say, I think it might be my father or my son because he was wearing
21 a certain kind of watch, for example.
22 A. Yes. That is possible.
23 Q. And would you ever, sir, as -- in your field, in the line of work
24 you've done in the last 12 or 13 years, would you ever discard certain
25 items such as those?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And why wouldn't you, sir?
3 A. Because they're considered evidence and they could also, like you
4 said, contribute to the identification of the victims.
5 Q. And sir, in your 12 to 13 years of doing this type of work, can
6 you tell me what you believe to be proper or improper about having two
7 sites open at one time?
8 A. It depends, if you have enough team members they can do different
9 tasks. It's very proper.
10 Q. Okay. And would that not include the proximity of the two sites
11 to each other, sir?
12 A. Well, the proximity of the two sites to each other would
13 definitely help in being able to conduct both simultaneously for a short
14 amount of time.
15 Q. In your Lazete 2 report you have summary findings, then you go to
16 exhumation procedures under paragraph 5, page 6, of your 26-page report,
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You say, "the following general exhumation procedures were written
20 by Richard Wright as a guideline for the excavation and exhumation of
21 bodies, body parts, and artefactual evidence during ICTY exhumations."
22 Did you not write that?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. And can you tell me when, to your knowledge, Dr. Wright came up
25 with these guidelines?
1 A. Must have been 1997.
2 Q. 1997?
3 A. Yeah, the first excavation we worked together on was Brcko, so it
4 must have been during 1997. What we did is, we took the initial body and
5 then tried to tailor it to each one of the -- of the different
6 investigations, and this would be the protocol that we would give all of
7 the team members that were working on the specific site.
8 Q. Okay. Now, real quickly, just to go back, since you're on that
9 page, the one right before it, page 5, you have the people that worked
10 underneath you, correct? Archaeologists and anthropologists, you have 11
11 of them?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Scene of crime officers, you have three?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you have one photographer?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And yourself, correct?
18 A. That is correct. As well as a logistics team.
19 Q. All right. Anybody else?
20 A. UN security.
21 Q. Okay. But as far as UN security, actually people helping you
22 out with the exhumation, removal of bodies, evidence, collection of
24 A. The demining team.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. Although they didn't help out with the grave; they demined.
2 Q. All right. Okay. Anybody else?
3 A. Not that I recall.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. They should be on this list.
6 Q. Have you ever had the opportunity to read Bill Haglund's report
7 from the four exhumations he did in or around Srebrenica?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Do you know how many people he had working for him,
10 underneath him, being supervised by him, excuse me?
11 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat the question? I didn't --
12 Q. Do you have any idea as to how many people that Mr. Haglund
13 supervising him -- or he was supervising during his exhumations?
14 A. No. No idea.
15 Q. Again, go back real quick. You personally, have you ever worked
16 or had two sites open simultaneously?
17 A. Myself?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. In Guatemala, all the time.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. All the time.
22 Q. And more than two?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And how far apart were they?
25 A. They can -- well, several hundred kilometres sometimes.
1 Q. Okay. And that's with the organisation -- the organisation in
2 Guatemala that you are involved with heavily; correct?
3 A. That's right, the Guatemala Forensic Anthropologists Foundation.
4 Q. And through that foundation, you worked with Dr. Clyde Snow from
5 America quite often in South America, have you not?
6 A. In Central America, that's correct.
7 Q. In Central America. I'm about finished with this examination,
8 doctor, and I appreciate your patience. I would like to just to go back
9 to your report on Lazete 1, where you stated, my colleague asked you
10 towards the end of her examination, it would be page 15, P02459.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where you say that you -- "I estimate that a potential 68 bodies
13 could have been removed during the robbing event."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I know she asked you a little bit about that. I'm just going to
16 ask you straight out: Isn't that really just speculation on your part
17 because there was a lot of years in between?
18 A. Looking at the body layout of Lazete 1, it was clear that there
19 was missing bodies. The other body groupings all were consistent, and
20 therefore I make this estimation, believing that the same consistency of
21 bodies and the same depth, group of bodies were present in the entire
23 Q. Okay. And that again is a guess or speculation based on other
25 A. Well --
1 Q. Do you agree with me?
2 A. I think it's statement based on experience.
3 Q. And speculation?
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Would you agree with that, sir?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 Q. Okay. One last question. In all the time that you worked and you
8 filed reports in Central America and the former Yugoslavia and all over
9 the word, have you ever -- or would you ever allow a defence attorney to
10 assist you in determining along with a pathologist the manner or cause of
12 A. Could you repeat the question?
13 Q. Yes. In all the time that you have worked in this field all over
14 the world, including the former Yugoslavia, would you ever allow a
15 criminal defence lawyer to assist you in determining the cause and manner
16 of death? When I say you, you mean you and obviously the pathologist?
17 A. I think that something that the experts have to determine. Not --
18 not the lawyers.
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 MR. MEEK: I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Meek.
22 I have Madam Fauveau for Miletic, and then Mr. Haynes.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Is it right that the soil residues or other
1 material found in the bodies or on the clothes can indicate the place
2 where the victim was killed or where it was prior to death?
3 A. It can, only if that material or soil is individualised enough and
4 different from the area where it's found.
5 Q. And when you worked on these sites, did you try to individualise
7 A. No, these were primary sites, and parts of the grave were taken
8 away, not brought there. So it wasn't necessary.
9 Q. Is it therefore fair to say that you cannot or you could not
10 establish where the victims, the bodies, whose bodies you found, where
11 they were killed?
12 A. Umm, we did not attempt to establish that. What we found was a
13 large amount of ballistic evidence on the surface and within the grave.
14 And then a grave with 127 bodies plus two bodies in a ditch.
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank you
16 very much, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Fauveau.
18 Mr. Haynes.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
20 Q. Good evening, Mr. Peccerelli.
21 A. Good evening.
22 Q. I want to clarify a couple of questions and answers that you gave
23 to Ms. Condon. Despite the fact that you are eminently capable of acting
24 as an anthropologist, during the 2000 exhumations that you carried out,
25 you weren't in fact required to act as an anthropologist; is that right?
1 A. No, I was not asked to do any laboratory or morgue work. That is
3 Q. Do I take it from the fact that you were given written directions
4 or you have penned the written directions how to conduct this exhumation
5 by Richard Wright that he, in fact, was not there during the 2000 season
7 A. He was not there during the time I was there. We only had a
8 couple of days where we saw each other, and he basically handed over the
9 team to me, and then I handed it back to him. But he was there -- the
10 rest of the time he was there. Prior and after my -- my presence there.
11 Q. Were you aware of whether there was, in fact, any anthropologists
12 attached to this exhumation or these exhumations that you carried out?
13 A. Anthropologists? Yes. There was several. Gordan Martin, Claudia
14 Rivera, Mercedes Salalo [phoen].
15 Q. Were they people who went to the morgue and carried out the sort
16 of tasks that you might have carried out yourself, if you had been asked
18 A. No, no, they were part of the field team. Who was on the morgue
19 team, I cannot recall.
20 Q. So far as you are aware, therefore, not only did you not carry out
21 any exercises to age the skeletons or the body parts, nobody else did
23 A. Umm, not from the excavation recovery team, but I'm sure they did
24 it in the morgue, in the laboratory.
25 Q. What about determining the sex of the bodies? You didn't do
2 A. No, we did not determine the sex of the bodies.
3 Q. And were you aware of whether anybody else did that at the
5 A. Well, Dr. John Clark was in charge of the morgue, if I'm not
6 mistaken. I think I mention it in my report and of course they had a team
7 there doing all -- individualising forensic anthropology traits, sex, age,
8 stature and so forth, trauma analysis.
9 Q. Now, as far as the calculation of the number of bodies that you
10 recovered were concerned, you simply relied on the number of virtually
11 complete bodies that you removed from the grave, that's 127 inside and two
12 on the outside, isn't it?
13 A. In Lazete 1 --
14 Q. I apologise, I should have been more specific, yes.
15 A. That is correct. 129 bodies that required a body sheet to be
16 filled out, plus body parts. I don't know the minimum number of
17 individuals that was reached in that case.
18 Q. There were, in fact, only nine parts of bodies, weren't there, if
19 you look at page 16 of your report?
20 A. Page 16. I don't think that's the right page.
21 Q. I have page 16 at the bottom.
22 A. Nine, that's correct. Nine body parts. Plus one of the things
23 that is not mentioned there is that loose bones were put into body part
24 bags and assigned a body part number.
25 Q. Thank you very much. But so far as you were concerned the only
1 information that appeared in your report was the number of 129 bodies that
2 you recovered?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. I wonder whether you could just have a look at e-court -- on
5 e-court, please, at P02477, page 7. I hope somebody is going to blow that
6 up so you can see it, Mr. Peccerelli.
7 A. Yes, it's kind of small.
8 Q. What you knew as Lazete 2 has come to be known as Orahovac. You
9 can see it, it's about six or seven down from the top.
10 A. Yeah, I see it.
11 Q. I appreciate that you say you have never involved yourself in an
12 MNI calculation, but as far as you were concerned the only figure you
13 provided anybody with was 129, and yet we see there 131?
14 A. Yeah, that's correct.
15 MR. HAYNES: I'm finished with that on e-court. Thank you very
17 Q. One last thing. There was, of course, a humanitarian aspect to
18 this. Were you aware whether either at site or at the morgue DNA samples
19 were being taken from the remains that you were recovering?
20 A. I'm not aware of the morgue, because I wasn't there, but at the
21 site there was no DNA samples being taken.
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Haynes.
24 Mr. Elderkin, do you have a re-examination?
25 MR. ELDERKIN: I do not, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
2 Mr. Peccerelli, we've come to the end of your testimony. I wish
3 to thank you on behalf of the Tribunal for having come over, and on behalf
4 of everyone, I wish you a safe journey back home.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
7 So, are there any documents you wish to tender?
8 MR. ELDERKIN: No, Your Honour.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. From what we can -- from what we can see
12 there are no documents to be tendered with this witness. Tomorrow we will
13 continue in the afternoon. Can I have a -- yeah, one moment.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't want to be the spoke in the wheel, but has
16 Lazete 1 been tendered.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: Mr. President, I may have confused things. I
18 understand -- well, Lazete 1 has been put in as Mr. Peccerelli's expert
19 report under 94. And that is the only one of the reports we ask to be
20 admitted. My understanding was that since it was his expert report and
21 has been -- has been put in under 94 for some time, that it was already in
22 evidence. But if I need to ask to the -- Lazete 1 to be tendered, I would
23 do so. And his CV as well for Mr. Peccerelli, which -- the P numbers. I
24 can give you the ...
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think -- yes, Mr. Bourgon. I think -- I think,
1 to try and streamline the procedure as must have as we can, there can be a
2 question as to whether that was sufficient, because in reality we have
3 never admitted it. So we are admitting it now. And when it's convenient,
4 when you are in a position to tender Lazete 2, we'll consider, we'll
5 consider the situation, because we haven't got it. We haven't even got a
6 copy of it.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: May I ask Mr. President, for Mr. Peccerelli's CV to
8 be admitted, which is P02460.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection? No objection. So that is admitted
11 MR. ELDERKIN: For the record I should give you the P number for
12 Lazete 1.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. I think the Registrar has it. Thank
15 All right. We stand adjourned until tomorrow at 2.15. Thank you
16 so much, and have a nice evening.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of
19 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.