Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9100

 1                          Wednesday, 21 March 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, everybody.  Madam Registrar, could you

 6    kindly call the case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, ma'am.  The accused are here.  Defence

10    teams are in full force.  Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls,

11    Mr. Thayer.

12            Yesterday, we ended up still discussing an issue raised by

13    Mr. Haynes by way of objecting to the admission of the witness statement,

14    and we adjourned at that point, after having started discussing it.  I

15    wonder if, in anticipation of the beginning of spring, you sat down and

16    came to an agreement.

17            Yes, Mr. Thayer.

18            MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Good

19    morning, everyone.  Hope springs eternal, Your Honour.  I think we have an

20    understanding, if not an agreement.  Briefly, I think my learned friend

21    will agree that his assertion that there was some reference in the

22    statement to the effect that none of these 11 prisoners was treated at the

23    Zvornik Hospital was, in fact, an error, and I think the Court will

24    remember well what the actual testimony was there.

25            Nevertheless, my learned friend would argue, I believe, that there

Page 9101

 1    are other differences, which we are all familiar with, and I'll just leave

 2    it at that.  I think that's -- enough has been said as to what the

 3    clarifications were, and whether the Court can accept the statement as a

 4    92 ter statement with those clarifications.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I thank you, Mr. Thayer.

 6            Mr. Haynes.  If you wish to add anything, I mean it's -- you may

 7    have already said what you wanted to say.

 8            MR. HAYNES:  Yes.  I've said all I want to say in relation to this

 9    witness.  I do feel we are reaching a crossroads with 92 terrace as to

10    whether the practices we are currently adopting really are saving us any

11    time at all.  I have little doubt that as a viva voce witness,

12    Dr. Novakovic could have been led through in chief in half an hour, and

13    instead we are spending a whole session with him correcting and

14    clarifying, and then we're having to put in a statement of the end bit.

15    But I've said I want to all I want to say in relation to him.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  So we are back to square one, to

17    an extent.

18                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  I'll be coming to the exhibits to be tendered by the

20    Defence soon.  In the meantime, I think we need to -- we've got two

21    documents that have been tendered, and the first is the witness statement

22    which is being contested.  This second one is 65 ter number 1884, which I

23    understand has not been objected to by any of the Defence teams, but I put

24    the question again just in case we missed this yesterday.  There are no

25    objections to the tendering of -- to the admission of this document, 1884.

Page 9102

 1            Just give us a moment to discuss or confer, conclude on 02480,

 2    please, and I will be coming back to you in a minute.

 3                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  I keep it on when I should switch it

 5    off, and I have it off when I should have it on.

 6            Coming to the question of whether Witness number 156's statement

 7    should be admitted or not, and addressing some of the issues that were

 8    voiced yesterday, that were raised yesterday, both by Mr. Bourgon and --

 9    and in particular by Mr. Haynes.

10            We'd like to make clear first and foremost one thing, and this is

11    by way of trying to remove any misconception that there might be -- I'm

12    not say that there is, but there might be.  Sometimes we do get that

13    feeling about the raison d'etre of Rule 92 ter.  When the judges in

14    Plenary decided to introduce Rule 92 ter in addition to the already

15    existing 92 bis, the idea was to streamline procedure by way of

16    economising on proceedings as -- as much as possible without endangering

17    the proper administration of justice, and to supplement what was

18    considered to be a shortcoming in 92 and then 92 bis, which did not cover

19    the whole gamut of testimonies that could be dispensed with in a way that

20    is now being contemplated under the rules.

21            When we introduced Rule 92 ter, the idea was not, and would never

22    be, that once the statement or the evidence of a witness is admitted

23    pursuant to that rule, then that would only be followed by a summary of

24    that statement or testimony with no space available, no -- for either

25    party to, particularly in this case we're talking on the Prosecution of

Page 9103

 1    course because this is a Prosecution witness.  The idea was never to allow

 2    for a situation to obtain where the witness would be brought here, have

 3    his statement confirmed as per paragraph 3 of -- subparagraph 3 of

 4    paragraph (A), and then have him cross-examined.

 5            The idea was that we would be economising on time by introducing

 6    the statement pursuant to the rule, accompanied by a summary thereof, and

 7    then of course it stands to reason that any questions that may become

 8    necessary in order either to supplement or to clarify the contents of that

 9    previous evidence or statement would be perfectly in place and would

10    become necessary and were to be allowed.  This was the gist of our

11    previous ruling on this matter.

12            It does happen, of course, and it has happened both under 92 bis

13    and under 92 ter, that on reviewing the previous testimony or the previous

14    statement the witness wishes to correct some matter, some parts of that

15    statement; and provided that the previous statement is not replaced by an

16    in -- completely in inconsistent or substantially different, new

17    statement, then this is a procedure that is perfectly -- perfectly normal

18    and is the procedure that was envisaged in the first place when we

19    introduced Rule 92 -- Rule 92 ter.

20            So it is true that in certain instances there hasn't been much

21    saving on time.  That is -- that is perfectly true.  And our idea on this

22    is that one tries to use one's good judgement with a view to identifying

23    those witnesses which are worth summoning and bringing over to testify

24    under Rule 92 ter and others that would -- can be classified as simply not

25    worth resorting to that procedure to Rule 92 ter at all, and bringing

Page 9104

 1    forward those witnesses to testify viva voce.

 2            As has been the case, you have changed your mind as you went

 3    along, sometimes you asked to convert witnesses from 92 bis to 92 ter,

 4    sometimes you have decided to forego that and to bring the witness to

 5    testify viva voce, so I'm not saying that you don't use your good

 6    judgement.  But maybe it should be made use even more, and perhaps better.

 7            That having been said, we are not of the opinion that what

 8    happened yesterday amounts to a substantive or substantial or material

 9    departure from the statement that the witness had made two years, three

10    years prior to coming to give testimony here.  We find what happened to be

11    within the parameters of what I stated earlier to be the raison d'etre of

12    Rule 92 ter, and therefore we are ruling for the admission of the witness

13    statement rather than against.

14            All right.  So that disposes of this issue.  There was another

15    issue that was raised yesterday by more than one party, more than one

16    Defence team in relation to the next witness, 158.  We also invited you to

17    make use of the break and any time available after the sitting to try and

18    reach an agreement.  If I could refresh your memory, the initial point

19    raised was whether an information sheet amounts to a statement, and then

20    that sort of amalgamated into a fresh argument that seemed to me to

21    supercede the previous one; namely, that now the Prosecution, the Office

22    of the Prosecutor have obtained a proper statement from the witness that

23    has been handed to the Defence teams, and we left it there.  I don't think

24    we took the discussion any further.

25            So I would like to have a feedback from Mr. Nicholls on whether

Page 9105

 1    there has been progress.  We'll do this and then we will come to the

 2    Defence exhibits for 156.

 3            MR. NICHOLLS:  I believe there has been progress, Your Honour.

 4    What happened was during the first session yesterday I went out and took a

 5    very brief statement from the witness, which has been passed out to you

 6    and which was given to the Defence at the first break.  In that statement

 7    the witness confirms that he read the report, that he made certain

 8    corrections, and that other than those corrections the information report

 9    accurately reflects everything he said during his interview and that he

10    stated those things, he signed that new statement, which I wish to make

11    part of the 92 ter statement for this witness.

12            It is in essence in this signed statement he incorporates and

13    validates the previous statement.  And I believe that there is no longer

14    an objection to proceeding with him on a 92 ter basis, and in this case I

15    believe it will save time and will be quite brief.  The corrections and

16    clarifications are already contained in the very short statement I took

17    yesterday, so it should be quite a brief direct.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you.  One question, Mr. Nicholls.  Do I take

19    that to mean that you will be, for all intents and purposes, dropping

20    02482 from the list of possible exhibits?  That's the information sheet,

21    information report.

22            MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.  It would be both the information

23    report and the short statement, which incorporates by reference but not

24    word for word, the information report.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you concede also that the information report,

Page 9106

 1    once you confirm what you've just stated, as no longer covered by any

 2    privilege --

 3            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  -- under Rule 70?

 5            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I'll come to you soon after that, but I just

 7    wanted to put my mind at rest that we probably be able to proceed with

 8    Witness 158.

 9            Now, going back to the previous witness, 156, does any one of the

10    Defence team wish to tender any documents?  Mr. Ostojic, I know that

11    Mr. Meek is not here, but...

12            MR. OSTOJIC:  Good morning, Mr. President.  I checked with

13    Mr. Meek, and we have no documents to tender at this time.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I take it then, there being silence in the

15    courtroom, that there are no documents to be tendered by the Defence

16    teams.  So that closes that chapter.

17            Are there any further objections or renewed objections to the

18    commencement of the testimony of Witness number 158?

19            Mr. Bourgon.

20            MR. BOURGON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

21    Honours.  Good morning, colleagues in the courtroom.

22            Mr. President, I did speak with my colleague yesterday concerning

23    the witness statement that was provided to us yesterday, and we -- again

24    we spoke this morning, and I informed him that I would most likely not

25    address the Court and simply let it go, with a view to trying to take what

Page 9107

 1    the Trial Chamber has invited us to do on a number of occasions, which is

 2    to take a pragmatic approach to these issues.

 3            But in light of what you just said, Mr. President, concerning Rule

 4    92 ter and the way -- what it is intended for, there are issues which I

 5    need to bring, and it addresses this specific issue.  Yesterday I

 6    mentioned to my colleague, Why don't you simply -- the witness is there,

 7    make a statement and have him sign, and that's it.  We won't -- this has

 8    been done in the past for intercept operators where you get a full

 9    statement at the last minute.

10            Instead of doing that, my colleague chose to add a statement to

11    confirm the Prosecution's violation of the rule by introducing an

12    information report.  Why?  It's not for me to say.  That's their -- but I

13    simply submit to the Trial Chamber that it would have been much easier

14    simply to do a statement with that witness, and the question would not

15    arise.  I mentioned to my colleague yesterday, what we are afraid of is

16    that we say yes for pragmatic reasons the first time and then it goes from

17    the fingers to the elbow to the shoulder, and then the door is fully open.

18            Mr. President, concerning 92 ter, you mentioned a few minutes ago

19    that when the judges adopted this rule, its purpose was to streamline

20    proceedings.  What we don't like, I'm speaking for this, the client that I

21    represent in this case, and maybe the others don't join, this is entirely

22    a personal argument but I know that it is shared by others.

23            What we are afraid of with Rule 92 ter is that it is not used by

24    the Prosecution for the purposes that it was intended for.  In our view

25    the way the Prosecution is using Rule 92 ter, and when they make a

Page 9108

 1    decision to move, either from viva voce to 92 ter or from 92 bis to 92

 2    ter, their purpose is completely different from what it should be.

 3            In our view the purpose that the Prosecution is -- the

 4    Prosecution's purpose in using 92 ter is to get on the record comments

 5    from their investigators, which are included sometimes in statements,

 6    sometimes in information reports.  It is to use the opportunity to have

 7    both.  They want the cake and they want to eat it, too.  They want the

 8    written piece of evidence and then they want the opportunity to be able to

 9    cross-examine their own witness with respect to the contents of the

10    material that is "put on the record."

11            As my colleague put to you a few minutes ago, it is not using --

12    saving any time, and it is also prejudicial to the accused because they

13    actually use the statement to then in the guise of clarifying to lead the

14    witness and to cross-examine their own witness on the stand.  We don't

15    save time.  It is prejudicial to the accused, and it seems the Trial

16    Chamber is not seeing what the Prosecution is doing with these statements.

17    That's our argument today, Mr. President.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.  I think we can close the discussion

19    here.  Please, let's proceed with -- with the next witness.

20            What I can say would be very short; namely, there is a pending

21    motion regarding three witnesses, three remaining witnesses out of 12 that

22    the Defence teams contest by way of maintaining that they should not be

23    produced or allow the Prosecution to produce them pursuant to 92 ter.  We

24    will decide that matter.

25            We don't automatically grant every motion or every request made by

Page 9109

 1    the Prosecution for resorting to Rule 92 ter.  And as I said earlier, we

 2    enjoin the Prosecution for the time being because it's the Prosecution to

 3    use its -- or use the best judgement possible in identifying those --

 4    those cases.  I don't think we are with you, Mr. Bourgon, that we haven't

 5    saved time or we haven't streamlined the proceedings.  It is only in just

 6    a handful, less than a handful of instances that perhaps the time saved

 7    was -- was very little.  But we still saved time, I must say.

 8            So let's -- yes, Mr. Haynes.

 9            MR. HAYNES:  Mr. Sarapa used two documents in cross-examination.

10    The first, which we would ask to be tendered into evidence, is 7D169 which

11    is a page from the duty officer's notebook of the Zvornik Brigade of the

12    6th of July.  The second was 3D17 which was the list of -- which was the

13    Red Cross list of prisoners.  And we believe that was admitted under that

14    title, 3D17, on the 7th of November, so we don't ask that to be --

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  The Registrar can check that immediately.

16            Yes, Mr. Thayer.

17            MR. THAYER:  We have no objection obviously to the notebook.  That

18    is a document we would prefer to be admitted in whole, and we will seek to

19    do at a later time in any event.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

21            MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  Just for the record, it's -- it reads the

22    6th of July.  It was the 16th of July.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  We'll check that and if it's

24    not -- it's correct, I'm told.  It's correct.  Thank you.  So the first of

25    these documents is admitted, the other has been admitted already.

Page 9110

 1            No further documents?  All right.  No further exhibits.

 2            Witness 158.

 3                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nicholls, yesterday you mentioned his age.  Can

 5    we anticipate or should we anticipate any problems or any special breaks?

 6            MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't think so, Your Honour, but I've told the

 7    witness if he begins to feel tired that he -- that there is no problem, he

 8    should just let us know.  But I think -- I don't -- I don't want to speak

 9    for the Defence, but I don't think this whole process is going to take

10    very long.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  The Defence have indicated

12    two hours.

13            Incidentally, Ms. Condon, we haven't yet had time to discuss the

14    matter raised by you yesterday, and that's the reason why we haven't come

15    back to you as yet.  But we will, at the earliest opportunity.  We have

16    other matters, too, that we are dealing with, some of which are urgent.

17            MS. CONDON:  I appreciate that, Mr. President.  Thank you.

18                          [The witness entered court]

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Dr. Gavric, good morning to you.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Welcome to this Tribunal.  You are about to start

22    giving evidence.  Before you do so, you are required to make a solemn

23    declaration here, equivalent to an oath, that you will be testifying the

24    truth.  That is the text of the solemn declaration.  Please read it out

25    aloud, and that will be your commitment with us.

Page 9111

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 2    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                          WITNESS:  JUGOSLAV GAVRIC

 4                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Dr. Gavric.  Please take a seat, make

 6    yourself comfortable.  I am very optimistic that your testimony will begin

 7    and finish today.  Before I hand you over to Mr. Nicholls, I just wanted

 8    to tell you one thing.  If at any time you need a break or you are feeling

 9    tired and you wish us to stop for a short while, then please don't

10    hesitate to tell us and we will have a break immediately.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  The procedure here is Mr. Nicholls will go first,

13    and then he will be followed by some of the Defence teams on

14    cross-examination.

15            Mr. Nicholls.

16            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17                          Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

18       Q.   Good morning, Doctor.

19       A.   Good morning.

20       Q.   I'm sorry you waited for some time yesterday, and we'll try to be

21    quite quick with your testimony today.

22            First of all your full name is Jugoslav Gavric; is that right?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And can you tell us when you were born, please?

25       A.   On the 6th of May, 1933.

Page 9112

 1       Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to ask you just a couple questions now about

 2    the interview you gave to investigators in 2003 and also the statement

 3    which you signed in my office yesterday.

 4            Now, first of all, in my office earlier this week did you read the

 5    report of your 19th of January, 2003, ICTY interview in your own language?

 6    Do you remember doing that?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And yesterday, in the morning, do you remember signing a brief

 9    statement in which you formalised and stated that you had reviewed the

10    report of your earlier interview and in which you wrote down some

11    corrections to that earlier interview?  Do you remember that?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Now, other than those five corrections you made, which are in the

14    statement, can you attest that the report of your ICTY interview and the

15    witness statement you signed yesterday morning, both accurately reflect

16    what you stated?

17       A.   Yes, fully.

18       Q.   Thank you.  And can you also confirm that your answers would be

19    the same if you were asked the same questions today here in court?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Thank you.  I'll now read a brief summary, and so this is not a

22    question for you.

23            In July 1995 Dr. Gavric was Director of the Zvornik Medical

24    Centre.  At this time the Chief Medical Officer of the VRS was Dr. Ratko

25    Rokvic, who was based at the HQ in Han Pijesak.

Page 9113

 1            Dr. Rokvic was a schoolmate, had been a schoolmate of Dr. Gavric,

 2    and they still knew each other in 1995 and would sometimes speak on the

 3    telephone.

 4            During the period from 11 to 15 July, 1995, there were no Muslims

 5    hospitalised in the Zvornik Hospital, then Dr. Gavric received an order

 6    from Dr. Rokvic.  The order was to go to the Milici Hospital and have the

 7    wounded Muslim patients there transferred to the Zvornik Hospital.  And

 8    Dr. Gavric cannot recall for sure whether this was a verbal or a written

 9    order.

10            Dr. Gavric went to the Milici Hospital with a nurse.  The driver

11    of the vehicle was a person in uniform, a military uniform, and a police

12    officer was also present on this trip.

13            There were between ten and 15 wounded Muslim men at the Milici

14    Hospital.  Three or four of whom were heavily or severely wounded.  The

15    names of these patients were contained on a list which was given to

16    Dr. Gavric.  Dr. Gavric introduced himself to the patients at Milici

17    Hospital and they -- because they seemed to be afraid.

18            All of these Muslim patients were then transferred to Zvornik

19    Hospital, and each patient carried a copy of his medical records with him.

20    Unfortunately, the vehicle ran out of fuel on the way from Milici to

21    Zvornik, which caused a delay.  When he arrived at Zvornik, Dr. Gavric

22    transferred the patients into the care of Dr. Zoran Lazarevic.

23            At this time some civilians and some patients began to protest and

24    were upset about the admission of Muslim patients into the Zvornik

25    Hospital.

Page 9114

 1            Dr. Gavric, after he transferred the patients into the care of

 2    Dr. Lazarevic, never saw these patients again and he later heard that they

 3    were taken away during the night to Tuzla.

 4            That concludes the summary.

 5            Dr. Gavric, I have just a few questions for you.  First, was that

 6    summary correct, of what you have stated in your previous statements?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  My first question is, if could you tell us to the best

 9    of your recollection what date it was when you went to pick up the Muslim

10    patients from Milici to bring them to the Zvornik Hospital?

11       A.   Right now I can't remember the exact date or, rather, day of the

12    week.  And as for the date, it was mid-June.  I can't remember either the

13    day or the date.  I assume, however, it was during the week, not on the

14    weekend, but I'm not fully certain.

15       Q.   Just to be clear, are you speaking of June or July?

16       A.   July, July.

17       Q.   Now, what kind of vehicle was it that you took to transport these

18    wounded Muslim patients?

19       A.   The information that I received that a group of patients needed to

20    be transferred from the Milici Hospital to our hospital in Zvornik

21    indicated that they were patients who couldn't walk on their own.  As a

22    result, we found a bus that had been adjusted to transport patients who

23    were lying.  Thus, one could place stretchers with patients on them, with

24    the wounded on them, into that bus and transport them in that way.  And in

25    addition to that, there were also seats for those who could sit.

Page 9115

 1       Q.   Thank you.  And can you just tell me approximately how long the

 2    journey from Milici to Zvornik lasted?  If you can tell us when you left

 3    Milici and when you arrived at Zvornik with the patients?

 4       A.   We arrived in Milici sometime around noon; 12.00 or 1.00.  It took

 5    us some time to take over the patients, that lasted for perhaps an hour.

 6    I spoke to some people there, some of the colleagues, informed myself

 7    about what was going on.  I was told that all of the wounded had been

 8    treated, medically treated, that they were all receiving therapy, medical

 9    therapy, and that each of them carried their own medical history.

10            As far as I can remember, I only carried the list of the wounded

11    with their names and no other information.  And this could have lasted for

12    about an hour, that entire procedure.

13       Q.   Thank you.  And when did you arrive back in Zvornik?

14       A.   Yes, we set out from Milici.  It was a warm, sunny day.  Then

15    halfway to Zvornik we ran out of fuel.  Our bus ran out of fuel.  So we

16    had to stay there and wait for somebody to come with the fuel.  However,

17    since during that period of time the traffic between Milici and Zvornik

18    was basically non-existent, and we couldn't expect anyone to bring fuel on

19    foot to us, we managed to get some fuel from a nearby inn.  We could have

20    lost an hour there on the road, and we arrived in Zvornik towards the

21    evening.  I don't remember exactly the time, but it was before the sun

22    set.

23            So this trip, due to these circumstances, was -- lasted longer

24    than normal.

25       Q.   And after -- after transferring the patients to the care of

Page 9116

 1    Dr. Lazarevic, did you ever ask about what had happened to the patients or

 2    where they had gone?  Did you ever ask anybody that?

 3       A.   Yes, since I completed that task, and it was after business hours

 4    at that point, I typically didn't have to do night shifts.  I normally

 5    spent nights in my apartment.

 6            The next day, when I arrived at work, I inquired whether all of

 7    the wounded were alive, because, based on what I could see among them,

 8    there were several seriously ill patients.  I was told that all of them

 9    survived that night and that they were evacuated to Tuzla in order to be

10    exchanged.

11       Q.   Thank you.  I want to ask you now -- a different topic, if you can

12    answer briefly.

13            Do you recall whether there were -- during the war, were there

14    ever any Muslim children treated in the Zvornik Hospital?

15       A.   I remember that at the paediatric ward we had a boy who was

16    between seven and nine years old.  This boy was hospitalised at the

17    paediatric ward for a longer period of time, a couple of months, if I

18    remember correctly.  During that period of time we attempted to find a way

19    to reunite the boy with his family.  I think we attempted to do that

20    through the International Red Cross.  But we didn't manage, as far as I

21    remember.

22       Q.   I think this is my last question, probably.  But to the best of

23    your memory, it was a long time ago, what time period was it that that

24    little boy you have just described was in the paediatric ward?

25       A.   I assumed office there in June of 1993.  And I think that already

Page 9117

 1    back then I knew that there was this boy at the paediatric ward.  I think

 2    that that's how it was.  As for how long he stayed there, I wouldn't be

 3    able to tell you.  I don't know until what time he remained and what

 4    happened to him afterwards.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  I don't have any questions at this time.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

 7            I have on my list all the Defence teams with the exception of the

 8    Borovcanin Defence team.  Who is going to go first?

 9            Mr. Zivanovic.  You requested 20 minutes.

10            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  Thank you.

11                          Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

12       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Gavric.  I'm Zoran Zivanovic,

13    and I'm defending Vujadin Popovic in these proceedings.

14            Could you clarify something for me.  If I understood you well, the

15    patients who were brought from the Milici Hospital to the Zvornik Hospital

16    remained there just overnight.  Did I understand that correctly?

17       A.   I don't know how long exactly they remained.  But on the following

18    day, when I came to work, when I came to my office, I think that that was

19    the first thing I inquired about.  My assistant told me that all of them

20    were fine, that they had survived that night, and that they were evacuated

21    and were no longer there.  That was on the very next morning.  That's at

22    least as far as I can remember.

23       Q.   Thank you.  The next thing I wanted to ask you is whether you knew

24    whether their names were entered into the records of the Zvornik Hospital?

25       A.   When I arrived with them, with the wounded, when they were carried

Page 9118

 1    into the hospital, those who were on the stretchers, when they were taken

 2    to the surgical ward, at the very entrance into the hospital, in the

 3    corridor, I gave the list with their names to one of the colleagues who I

 4    thought would take over them from me.  But then I did not inquire

 5    afterwards whether these patients were recorded in the logbook,

 6    registration book of patients and so on.  Because it wasn't really my

 7    duty.  At least I didn't consider it to be.

 8       Q.   So after the following morning, when you were told that all of

 9    them were fine and they had gone to be exchanged, you never received any

10    information from your staff about the further fate of these people?

11       A.   No, nobody informed me of that.

12       Q.   Thank you.  You said, among other things, that at the time when

13    these civilians, patients -- or, rather, when these patients were brought

14    in from Milici, some civilians and some patients started protesting due to

15    the fact that you had admitted some Muslim patients into the hospital.  So

16    could you please explain what kind of a protest it was?  What was it

17    about?

18       A.   See here, Zvornik is a small town and the hospital is in the very

19    centre of the town.  Naturally, as the bus passed through the town and

20    when we stopped in front of the entrance into the hospital, the residents

21    were able to see what was happening and they approached us.  I could see

22    them approaching, probably thinking that those were the wounded soldiers

23    of the army of Republika Srpska.  They could see the stretchers, patients

24    who were unable to walk and so on.

25            So a group of people assembled, a group of eye-witnesses who saw

Page 9119

 1    all that.  So I had to ask for some security to come.  When they learned

 2    that these people were Muslims, then their protest became rather firm.  We

 3    had a problem.  We had to ensure that these wounded were kept separately

 4    from other wounded at the hospital.  It was a problem, however the head of

 5    that ward took care of that.  I am not sure exactly where these people

 6    were accommodated in the hospital itself in the surgical ward.  I don't

 7    know whether they had enough beds for them there or they perhaps had to be

 8    moved to the gynaecology ward, because they had a lot of beds as well.

 9    And if there wasn't sufficient room sometimes they used the other ward as

10    well.

11       Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

13            Who is going next?  Mr. Ostojic.

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We have no questions for

15    this doctor.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

17            Mr. Bourgon.

18            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                          Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

20       Q.   Good morning, Doctor.  I only have a few questions for you this

21    morning.  My first question relates to the -- the reason for which these

22    prisoners were taken from Milici to the Zvornik Hospital.  And can you

23    confirm that the reason that they were indeed transferred was because of

24    the small capacity of the Milici Hospital, the fact that there was not

25    enough staff there, and that Zvornik was the closest place to the

Page 9120

 1    exchange.  Can you confirm this information?

 2       A.   Yes.  Actually, it was a typical routine.  Since the Milici

 3    Hospital was significantly smaller, if they could not care for some

 4    patients, wounded, then the Zvornik Hospital would typically take them

 5    over because we were much larger, when it came to admitting the wounded

 6    and the sick.  It was my understanding that that was the only reason,

 7    because they, in Milici, could no longer care for these people and that

 8    they had no room for them.

 9       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  I would just like a quick question concerning

10    the moment where your vehicle ran out of fuel.  My understanding is that

11    when this happened there was a drinking fountain close to that vehicle and

12    at that point the atmosphere was quite relaxed and actually the people who

13    were wounded on the bus were let out to drink water and come back on the

14    bus.  Is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.  Actually, since we waited somewhat longer, there was a

16    fountain there, a source of water.  It was a warm day and some of the

17    wounded came out, refreshed themselves, cooled down, had some water and

18    then went back to the bus.  There were no problems there.  There were no

19    discussions, nothing.  We simply stood there waiting.  And people had some

20    water.

21       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  Now, my next question relates to the -- what

22    you discussed a bit with my colleague representing another of the accused

23    in this case, concerning the fact that when you arrived some people

24    gathered because of the arrival of the wounded Muslims.  Now, my question

25    is very -- very simple.  For you, as a doctor, whether a patient is a

Page 9121

 1    Muslim, a Serb or a Croat would make no difference and they would all be

 2    treated the same, and indeed, this is what happened to these wounded

 3    Muslim prisoners.  Is that so?

 4       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Even the clothing that the wounded wore, they were

 5    just hospital pyjamas.  So even in that sense there was no difference

 6    amongst the patients.  The treatment was the same.  I don't know what else

 7    I can say.

 8       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  My next question relates to the question which

 9    was posed to you concerning the Muslim boy that was held in the paediatric

10    ward for some time.  Now, you were the director of the Zvornik Hospital

11    and I would like to know, to the best of your recollection, whether any

12    problems arose from the fact that a Muslim boy was cared for at the

13    Zvornik Hospital or whether any such problems were brought to your

14    attention by anyone working at the hospital?

15       A.   The boy was at the paediatric ward.  He was already a bit older

16    than the rest of the patients.  I personally went to visit him.  And the

17    atmosphere at the ward was quite proper.  He even entertained the rest of

18    the patients on the ward, the other children.  And I didn't notice any

19    kind of intolerance or even the doctors who were treating him, they had

20    accepted him as a kind of favourite.  A boy who, due to circumstances, was

21    there.  I didn't notice that he was suffering from any illness.  And all

22    of us, the paediatricians and I, remember that we tried to get the

23    International Red Cross to find a way for the boy to find his family.

24            I think I had information that some relatives of the boy were in

25    Germany, and that there were attempts to do it that way.  But I don't know

Page 9122

 1    what the actual outcome was of that whole thing.

 2       Q.   Thank you very much, Doctor.  I have no further questions.  Thank

 3    you.

 4            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

 6            I have -- who wishes to go next?  Mr. Josse or Mr. Krgovic for

 7    General Gvero.

 8            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

 9                          Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

10       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gavric.

11       A.   Good morning.

12       Q.   In your answers to the Prosecutor's questions, you mentioned that

13    the order or information that you needed to go to Milici, you received

14    from the medical corps chief of the VRS, Mr. Rokvic.  Do you recall that?

15       A.   I don't remember the order or the piece of paper instructing me to

16    go.  But now I assume that -- and I assume that when I gave the statement

17    also, that that was the usual practice regarding the military or the

18    wounded.  Then I would get in touch with the -- my colleague, Mr. Rokvic,

19    and also Dr. Davidovic in Milici.  I think that he also told me that this

20    was an order -- yes, an order to do that.

21            I repeat once again, I'm sorry, but I cannot remember whether it

22    was a written information or it was information given over the telephone.

23       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  So the only person that you were in contact

24    with from the Main Staff regarding the evacuation and regarding any

25    medical issues that had to do with the wounded was actually Dr. Rokvic?

Page 9123

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   He was a colonel by rank; is that correct?  A primarijus?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown document

 5    0501888.  I think that there is an English version and a B/C/S version.

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the number.

 7    Thank you.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic.

 9            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] P01888.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   Doctor, I'm going to show you a note signed by the director of the

13    Milici Hospital.  It's going to appear on the screen in front of you

14    shortly and I would like to ask you to confirm whether that corresponds to

15    what you referred to in your answer.  It states there that, according to

16    the orders of the medical corps chief of the VRS, the chief of the

17    municipality and the chief of the public Security Service of Milici, the

18    wounded are being transferred to the Zvornik Hospital?

19       A.   Yes, I believe that on the basis of this I organised the

20    transport, I took over the wounded.  It was important to me that this was

21    ordered by the chief of the medical service, but I don't remember the part

22    about the chief of the public security service in Milici.  What was

23    relevant for me was the information itself.

24            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down please, so that

25    we can see the signature on this document.

Page 9124

 1       Q.   And then you will see.

 2       A.   I'm sorry, my glasses are not the best.  Yes, yes, I see that this

 3    is Dr. Davidovic.  He is head of the -- or the director of the hospital in

 4    Milici.  And this was based on the above order, so...

 5       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.

 6            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.  I have no

 7    further questions for this witness.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

 9            I have on the list remaining the Miletic and the Pandurevic

10    Defence teams.

11            Madam Fauveau for General Miletic.

12            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We won't have any questions for this

13    witness, Mr. President.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Madam Fauveau.

15            And Mr. Haynes or Mr. Sarapa.

16            MR. SARAPA:   Yes, just a few questions.

17                          Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

18       Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Dr. Gavric.  Earlier you said that it

19    was the procedure that patients from the Milici Hospital, which was

20    smaller, if there was no room, they would come to the Zvornik Hospital

21    which was bigger.  Can you tell us, if you remember, that day when you

22    came to collect the wounded to bring them from Milici to Zvornik, do you

23    remember if the Milici Hospital was full?

24       A.   I didn't have the opportunity, and I didn't really pay attention

25    to the actual part where the patients were.  I just came to the director's

Page 9125

 1    office, that was Dr. Davidovic.  I don't remember seeing him actually on

 2    that occasion, but one of the colleagues gave me the list.  I don't recall

 3    meeting Dr. Davidovic at that time.  But I know, from previous visits,

 4    that the hospital didn't have many rooms and beds to accommodate surgery

 5    patients.  And it was logical to me, in a way, for those 15 wounded to be

 6    admitted to a larger facility.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  In your view, and because you have many years of

 8    experience in the medical profession, would you agree with the claim that

 9    arises from what you yourself have said, that is that their condition was

10    the reason why they were being transferred to a larger hospital?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   When they came to the Zvornik Hospital you said, when they were

13    being brought out from the buses that came from Milici to Zvornik, that

14    people were interested who was in the buses and that there were certain

15    protests.  You also mentioned that the surgical ward was full and that

16    they were put on the -- accommodated at the gynaecology ward which is not

17    really so great.  Would you agree that the reason why they were

18    transported from the Zvornik Hospital to the Standard medical facility was

19    precisely that reason, as well as this was done for their personal safety

20    reasons?

21       A.   I think both reasons could be valid.  At the infirmary, there were

22    certain capacities for a certain number of patients.  There was a certain

23    number of beds.  And I know that certain wounded persons were treated

24    there at the infirmary.  But I didn't get information that they were

25    transferred to the infirmary.  I didn't get that information.  I was told

Page 9126

 1    that they had been evacuated and, from what I can recall, I was not told

 2    that they were transferred to the infirmary.

 3       Q.   And do you believe that their personal safety would be better

 4    guaranteed at the infirmary rather than at the hospital in view of the

 5    situation that was there?

 6       A.   Yes, because of the situation, yes.  Although your remark that the

 7    gynaecological ward was not -- we had more than 10 beds there that were

 8    empty in the gynaecological ward at the time.  And the conditions there

 9    for treatment are very good.  I believe that, for security reasons, this

10    was a much better move.

11       Q.   This has been confirmed to a degree, but we would like to know

12    that for certain.  And so could you please tell us, the people, that part

13    of the wounded who were taken from the hospital to the Zvornik Brigade

14    infirmary that was close by, did they receive, in your opinion, in your

15    knowledge, and according to the adequate treatment that was available

16    there, did they receive adequate medical care?

17       A.   We tried in any case --

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

19            Mr. Nicholls.

20            MR. NICHOLLS: [Microphone not activated].

21            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22            MR. NICHOLLS: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.  The witness

23    has just stated that he wasn't told that they were taken to the infirmary.

24    He was just told that they were evacuated and he doesn't know that they

25    were taken to the infirmary.  So I don't think the question is proper,

Page 9127

 1    putting to the witness now that you've told us that they were taken to the

 2    infirmary, how were they treated there.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Let me confer.

 4                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Problem as Mr. Nicholls sees it, and I'm waiting for

 6    feedback from my colleagues is that if you look at line 2 on page 27, and

 7    line 3, the witness in reply to a previous question said, "But I didn't

 8    get information that they were transferred to the infirmary."

 9            The objection now is, or the point raised now is that you are

10    putting to the witness, as a fact, that these wounded persons were taken

11    from the hospital to the Zvornik Brigade infirmary.  And that is being

12    object --

13            MR. NICHOLLS:  And also, sorry, that the specific question is, did

14    they receive adequate medical care at the -- which he -- he has said he

15    doesn't have a basis for.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  So perhaps you can either drop the question or

17    rephrase it.

18            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] My intention was to ask Dr. Gavric,

19    in view of the fact that they were taken away, he doesn't know, this is

20    in -- beyond dispute.  And in the previous answer he said that they could

21    receive adequate medical protection at the ambulatory facility.  So

22    specifically referring to these wounded, if they were taken, and they were

23    taken there, we know that, it's a fact they were taken there, could they

24    have received proper medical treatment.  I'm not asking for his

25    confirmation that they were taken there.

Page 9128

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyway, the question is being rephrased.

 2            It's being put to you, Dr. Gavric, if these persons were indeed

 3    transferred to the infirmary, would -- would it have been likely or

 4    possible for them to receive proper treatment in that infirmary?  And

 5    that's if you know, I mean, if you're familiar with the infirmary and the

 6    kind of treatment that could be provided there.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the infirmary it was possible to

 8    treat and to administer therapy for those patients who had been previously

 9    surgically treated before.  It was not possible to conduct surgeries or

10    any kind of more serious treatment at the infirmary, but it was possible

11    to continue therapy that was started before.  The equipment was fairly

12    good and the staff should have been at the appropriate level.  When I am

13    talking about -- I'm talking about doctors, specialists.

14            Again, I would like to repeat, it was not possible for them to

15    receive more complicated treatment, but to continue treatment, it was

16    possible, that was the purpose of the infirmary.  It was meant for those

17    who had already been primarily treated to receive further or additional

18    treatment there at the infirmary.

19            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   And my next question:  Dr. Gavric, do you know if specialists and

21    nurses from your institution went to the Standard infirmary to give

22    medical assistance there to the wounded, injured, to the sick at the

23    infirmary?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Do you know about other cases, other than these wounded that we

Page 9129

 1    were talking about, if any other Muslim wounded persons were brought to

 2    your hospital to receive medical treatment?

 3       A.   I really cannot be sure about that, but we were very busy at the

 4    time, and all those who came received treatment, so I couldn't really say

 5    what numbers we're talking about when and so on, but all wounded that

 6    happened to find themselves in our region received treatment there and,

 7    from what I can recall, there were no objections or any problems in that

 8    sense.

 9       Q.   And was the treatment the same, regardless of their ethnicity?

10       A.   Yes, yes, it was the same.  I state that because I gave treatment

11    myself the whole time and I never differentiated on the basis of things

12    like that when patients were concerned.

13       Q.   And was this true both of civilians and soldiers?

14       A.   Yes.  Perhaps the wounded had priority in relation to civilians,

15    and of course triage was made, which in those conditions of war is

16    absolutely essential.  But there was no difference made as far as

17    treatment was concerned.

18       Q.   Thank you very much.  I have no further questions.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone please, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.  That brings to an end the

22    cross-examination.

23            Is there re-examination, Mr. Nicholls?

24            MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  We have no further questions for you, Doctor, which

Page 9130

 1    means that, as I anticipated earlier on, your testimony ends here.  You're

 2    free to go back home.  Our staff will assist you.  But before you leave

 3    this courtroom, I would like to, on behalf of the Trial Chamber, thank you

 4    for having come over to give testimony, and also wish you a safe journey

 5    back home.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 7                          [The witness withdrew]

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Exhibits.  Mr. Nicholls.

 9            MR. NICHOLLS:  Just P02482 and P02482B, which is the 92 ter

10    statement.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objections?  I hear no objections.  So these

12    are -- two documents are admitted.

13            Exhibits from the Defence teams.  I understand that the Gvero

14    Defence team would like to tender a document.

15            MR. JOSSE:  We would, Your Honour.  The one that Mr. Krgovic put

16    to the witness, which I think is 6DP01888.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's correct.  Any objections?

18            MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So this document, what is -- exhibit is also

20    admitted.  And I think we can close this chapter and move to the next

21    witness.  Again, I just want to check that there are no protective

22    measures in place.

23                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  It's being suggested that we have the break now.  I

25    think that's fit and proper.  We'll have 25 minutes' break now and we'll

Page 9131

 1    start with the new witness afterwards.  Thank you.

 2                          --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

 3                          [The witness entered court]

 4                          --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, Dr. Begovic.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  And welcome to this Tribunal.  You are about to

 8    start giving evidence.  Before you do so, you are required by our Rules to

 9    make a solemn declaration that you will testify the truth.  The text is

10    being handed to you now.  Please stand up, read it out aloud, and that

11    will be your commitment with us that you will be testifying the truth.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13    the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

14                          WITNESS:  ZORAN BEGOVIC

15                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, sir.  Please make yourself comfortable.

17            Doctor, Mr. Vanderpuye will go first for the Prosecution, and he

18    will then be followed by some of the Defence teams on cross-examination.

19            Mr. Vanderpuye.

20            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

21    Honours.  Good morning, counsel.

22                          Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

23       Q.   Good morning, Doctor.

24            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Your Honour, this is a 92 ter witness, so I

25    intend to follow the procedure set forth in relation to that.

Page 9132

 1       Q.   Doctor, do you recall having given a statement to the Office of

 2    the Prosecutor which you signed and acknowledged on the 2nd of April,

 3    2003?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And was the statement that you gave at that time a truthful

 6    statement?

 7       A.   The statement was truthful, but two days ago I had some

 8    corrections to make because it wasn't fully consistent with what I stated

 9    three years ago.  At the time, when the gentleman interviewed me, since

10    the statement was in English and not in Serbian, it was read out to me and

11    I did have certain corrections then to make, and then two days ago when

12    the statement was read out to me, I could see that it wasn't written down

13    exactly as I had stated things three years ago.

14            Thus, I had some corrections to make, and two days ago, we

15    clarified that.

16       Q.   All right.  So --

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, before you continue, perhaps you can ask him

18    for his name and surname.

19            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Oh, okay.  Excuse me.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Just for the record, except that I addressed him as

21    Dr. Begovic.

22            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

23       Q.   Just for the record, could you please state your first and last

24    name?

25       A.   Zoran Begovic.

Page 9133

 1       Q.   Thank you.  I think we were just talking about some of the

 2    corrections that you made with respect to the statement, but before we

 3    get --

 4       A.   That's right.

 5       Q.   -- but before we get to that, let me just ask you, when you read

 6    your statement recently, before testifying here today, did you read that

 7    in your own language?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Did you have it read back to you?

10       A.   The lady who was an interpreter in 2003 read it out to me in

11    Serbian.

12       Q.   Okay.  Just recently, a couple of days ago, did you have an

13    opportunity to read the statement?

14       A.   No.  I read it for the first time two days ago.

15       Q.   Okay.  And when you read the statement two days ago, did you read

16    it in your own language?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And after having read the statement in your own language, did you

19    bring these corrections that you have just spoken about to my attention?

20       A.   I did.

21       Q.   All right.  Now, with respect to those corrections, I'd just like

22    to clarify what they are for the record.

23            With respect to paragraph 8 where it -- and that's for the benefit

24    of the Court, where it says, or indicates that a Major Obrenovic told you

25    that the exchange of the wounded people was pursuant to an order of the

Page 9134

 1    Main Staff and General Mladic, would it be accurate to say that

 2    Major Obrenovic never actually mentioned that it was -- that the exchange

 3    was pursuant to an order of the Main Staff or General Mladic?

 4       A.   First of all, the day before the order arrived, Mr. Obrenovic

 5    addressed me at the infirmary where other members of the medical corps

 6    were.  He addressed me with the following words:  He said, "The wounded

 7    arrived.  They will stay here for a couple of days until they are

 8    exchanged in Bijeljina.  Until that time, they should come to no harm.

 9    You must take very good care of them.  A surgeon will come from Zvornik

10    specifically to treat them."

11       Q.   If I could stop you there.  I just want to focus on this

12    statement.  We'll get to the substance of what he told you a little bit

13    later, but did he mention an order or not?

14       A.   No.  The order did not arrive until the following day.

15       Q.   Okay.  With respect to paragraph 9, where it says in effect that

16    you were informed by a nurse that the wounded had been taken away at 5.00

17    a.m.  Would it be more accurate to say that you weren't informed by any

18    particular nurse, but you were informed by a number of people who were

19    aware of the circumstances concerning those wounded?

20       A.   That's correct.

21       Q.   And would it also be fair to say that the conclusion that they

22    were taken away at around 5.00 a.m., that's contained in that paragraph,

23    was not something that was actually told to you, but something that you

24    yourself surmised?

25       A.   That's correct.  The gentleman asked me, since I arrived at around

Page 9135

 1    6.00 at the barracks, the gentleman asked me what was my opinion about

 2    when that could have happened.  And I said, in my opinion, it could have

 3    been between 4.00 and 5.00.  But that's just my opinion.

 4       Q.   Okay.  Now, with respect to paragraph 11 in the statement, where

 5    it says that you received the information from the nurse about the

 6    prisoners, and that they were taken away without medical supervision.  Is

 7    that basically the same correction that you weren't -- you didn't receive

 8    that information from any particular nurse?  Would that be a more accurate

 9    reflection of what you said?

10       A.   It wasn't a nurse who told me that they had been taken away at

11    5.00, because it was said at 6.00 when some preparations were made, and

12    among others, there were also nurses there.  That's how it was.

13       Q.   And would it be fair to say that the reference in paragraph 11 to

14    the wounded being taken away without medical supervision, would it be more

15    accurate to say that, as far as you were aware, they were taken away

16    without any medical personnel, technicians or doctors, from the place

17    where you worked?

18       A.   That's correct.  None of the medical staff escorted them.

19       Q.   And finally, with respect to paragraph 13, where the statement

20    indicates that you do not remember Colonel Pandurevic coming to the

21    medical centre in relation to the wounded people, would it be more

22    accurate to say that you do remember that, in fact, he did not come to the

23    medical centre in relation to those wounded people?

24       A.   Mr. Pandurevic, at the time, and I said this three years ago, and

25    I will repeat it now.  At the time, Mr. Pandurevic was not present in the

Page 9136

 1    barracks at all.  I saw Mr. Pandurevic for the first time after all of

 2    these events, after they ended and when they passed through to Boljkovac.

 3    So Mr. Pandurevic was not able to visit them because he wasn't present

 4    there.  At the time, Mr. Dragan Obrenovic substituted in for him.

 5       Q.   Okay.  Now, other than these factual inaccuracies that we have

 6    just gone through, which are a fair number, does the statement otherwise

 7    accurately and -- does it accurately reflect what you said when you were

 8    questioned in 2003, and does it accurately and fairly reflect what you

 9    would say, were you to be examined here today?

10       A.   You know what, in item number 1, where it says that I volunteered

11    to give information, that's not correct.  I received notice, a policeman

12    came to the infirmary and gave me a notice to appear on the following day

13    at 3.00 to meet with the OTP investigators.  So that was a correction I

14    wanted to make, and the gentleman didn't respond to it.  And then there

15    were other things that didn't -- that weren't included into the statement.

16    It wasn't just those wounded, but after those wounded, there was another

17    group of four or five wounded who were treated and they went to be

18    exchanged in Bijeljina very soon thereafter.

19            However, that wasn't included in the statement, and I made that

20    correction back in Zvornik when the statement was read out it me.

21    However, it was never included in my statement.

22       Q.   Okay.  But as far as what's reflected in the actual statement,

23    other than what we've spoken about, is the statement accurate?

24       A.   As it stands now, yes, and I stand by it.

25       Q.   Okay.  With the court's permission, I would tender the statement,

Page 9137

 1    subject to the corrections as appear on the record.  P02481 into evidence

 2    pursuant to 92 ter.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  We'll come to that formally at a

 4    later stage.  Thank you.

 5            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have a very brief summary, although it seems as

 6    though you have already heard it.

 7            The witness was born in Sekovici in 1964 and in 1992 he began

 8    working as a physician at Zvornik Hospital.  Shortly after commencing work

 9    at the hospital, the witness was transferred to Kozluk medical centre

10    where he remained until his mobilisation to the VRS in mid-1994.

11            On the day of his mobilisation, the witness reported to the

12    medical centre of the Zvornik Brigade at Standard in Zvornik.  As chief of

13    the medical centre, the witness was responsible for the provision to

14    Zvornik Brigade soldiers of medical services and reported to the officer

15    in charge of rear services which at some point became Captain Sreten

16    Milosevic.  The director of the hospital was Jugoslav Gavric.

17            In July 1995, without any prior notification to the medical

18    centre, approximately 10 to 15 wounded prisoners arrived at the Standard

19    barracks from Zvornik Hospital.  The prisoners had received some apparent

20    treatment prior to their arrival and were registered with the medical

21    centre after their arrival.

22            Either the day the prisoners arrived or the following day, Major

23    Obrenovic informed a number of the medical team that they were, that is

24    the -- the wounded were to be transferred to Bijeljina.  The witness read

25    a fax to this effect the next day which further called for the prisoners

Page 9138

 1    to be given "special care" because they were to be exchanged.  Throughout

 2    the prisoners' stay, a different physician from Zvornik Hospital came to

 3    the Zvornik Brigade medical centre to change their bandages.

 4            About five days after their arrival, the witness was informed that

 5    the prisoners had been removed from the Standard.  An MP later confirmed

 6    that they had been taken away by bus.  Though the witness did not know

 7    what happened to the prisoners, he made no official complaint, believing

 8    that their removal had been for the purposes of which he had been

 9    previously informed.

10            That concludes my 92 ter statement and I would like to put to the

11    witness a few questions if I may.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, certainly.  Go ahead.

13            Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

14            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just have one question

15    that I -- at this point in time, because we have a summary that is being

16    read out, and it appears to me that there are some differences between the

17    summary and the corrections that were just brought by the witness to his

18    statement.  I note in particular -- I'm trying to stop the page here, on

19    page 38 at lines 16 to 18, the summary read by my colleagues says, "In

20    July 1995, without any prior notification to the medical centre, some

21    people arrived at Standard barracks from Zvornik Hospital."

22            Now -- when the witness was reading -- was making corrections to

23    his statement, and I'm looking here, I'm looking at page 35, lines 6 and

24    subsequent lines.  First of all, the day before the order arrived,

25    Mr. Obrenovic addressed me at the infirmary where other members of the

Page 9139

 1    medical corps were.  He addressed me with the following words:  "The

 2    wounded arrived.  They will stay here for a couple of days".

 3            So I understand from this that there was some kind of prior

 4    warning by Major Obrenovic and the summary doesn't say that.  I would just

 5    like to get some clarification either from the witness or from my

 6    colleague.

 7            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think I can clarify that.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  You can do that, but on the other hand, also, the

 9    witness said that -- I leave it in your hands.  But I think it needs some

10    clarification.

11            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think the following will perhaps satisfy my

12    colleague, is that the witness had indicated that Major Obrenovic came

13    before the order and the order was a faxed order which is what is

14    indicated in the statement itself.  And the statement itself, at paragraph

15    7 says, specifically, "These people arrived without me being informed" and

16    it also says, "These people were brought to us but I never had prior

17    discussion with anyone from the hospital or the command of Zvornik Brigade

18    regarding these wounded people."

19            And so there is a distinction being drawn between when the order

20    arrived versus when the people arrived.  And I think that's probably the

21    source of the confusion.  I don't know if that satisfies my colleague.  I

22    can certainly put it to the witness if the Court needs further

23    clarification.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Well, I would prefer if you put it to the witness

25    rather than making a statement yourself.

Page 9140

 1            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm just pointing out what's in the record, I

 2    think.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  I suggest that having already told you that it needs

 4    some clarification, that you put the same problem --

 5            MR. VANDERPUYE:  No problem.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  -- matter to the witness.  Thank you.

 7            MR. VANDERPUYE:

 8       Q.   You have heard the concerns of the Court and also my colleague,

 9    Mr. Bourgon, concerning when it is that -- well, first of all, whether or

10    not you received any prior notice as to the arrival of these wounded

11    people.  Could you just explain to the Court or tell the Court if that's,

12    in fact, the case?

13       A.   I wasn't informed about any arrival of the wounded.  They appeared

14    all of a sudden, escorted by some soldiers.  They appeared in the

15    infirmary.  Not all of them were brought in, some perhaps two or three.

16    Then those who escorted them said these are the prisoners, the wounded,

17    they're going to be exchanged in Bijeljina.  So we took them out of that

18    room where we were working.  So I didn't understand because they brought

19    them in and then they said these people are going to be exchanged in

20    Bijeljina.

21            Then after a couple of hours, we saw that these people had not

22    been taken to exchange but were rather put in a place that was secured by

23    military policemen.  And then after that, Mr. Dragan Obrenovic came and

24    told me what I told you earlier.  I wasn't informed about any arrival of

25    these people.  I wasn't informed that they would come to the barracks.

Page 9141

 1       Q.   Just so that the record is, I think, clear, are you saying

 2    essentially that you became aware of the presence of the wounded people

 3    before you saw Major Obrenovic?

 4       A.   That's correct.

 5       Q.   And are you also saying that you became aware of the written fax

 6    order after you saw Major Obrenovic?

 7       A.   That's correct.  That was on the following day.

 8       Q.   Okay.  All right.  Is that -- is that satisfactory for my

 9    colleague?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon?  Okay.  Yes, he seems to be happy

11    for once.  Let's proceed.

12            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13       Q.   Okay.  You have indicated that these -- these individuals were

14    brought to a specific area where you were working.  First of all, let me

15    just ask you, if you can recall, about what date that was.

16       A.   I wouldn't be able to remember the date.  I know it was July.  It

17    was summertime.  As for the date, I don't know, and I don't know the day

18    of the week either.

19       Q.   Okay.  Fair to say you were working that day, right?  You were on

20    duty?

21       A.   Yes, yes.

22       Q.   Okay.  And you were in a specific area of the hospital, you've

23    indicated.  Could you just tell us where that was?

24       A.   That wasn't the hospital, that was the barracks that had an

25    infirmary.  Well, how should I explain this?  There are several

Page 9142

 1    entrances.  So the first entrances when you enter the compound of the

 2    Standard factory, and then immediately to the right, some 20, 30 metres,

 3    was the infirmary and the kitchen was across from the infirmary.  And then

 4    some 10 to 15 metres away from us were the premises of the military police

 5    and that one room where they stayed.  So there was that portion of the

 6    compound.

 7            At the floor above, we had a clinic with some beds.  And then

 8    there was a large bathroom between us and the police.  I think that, to

 9    the right, as you entered, there was a large bathroom and that was it.

10       Q.   And you indicated that they were brought in by a number of

11    soldiers.  Is that right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Okay.  Now, in relation to where they were taken, after they were

14    brought to that room, did you have any discussion with anybody concerning

15    where they should be placed or where they would be placed?

16       A.   When Mr. Dragan Obrenovic came, then he started talking.  He said

17    that they would be accommodated there, that that was the safest place for

18    them, that they would be secured by the military police and that was the

19    only room where they could have been accommodated, but because everything

20    else was full and I guess for their personal safety, it was a good idea to

21    have police nearby.  I guess that was the idea, but I don't know.

22       Q.   Okay.  And so from the area where you worked, they were taken to

23    another room; is that right?

24       A.   Yes, correct.

25       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... you to make any special

Page 9143

 1    accommodation, move things or make an arrangement in order to have those

 2    people placed in that room?

 3       A.   No, nothing was moved.  There were pallets there, and then boards

 4    and then mattresses were placed on top of that.  Soft mattresses.  So it

 5    was a room of, I don't know the square footage of it.  Normally, people

 6    who were trouble-makers in units were taken to that room.  Either they

 7    were excessively drinking or abandoning their posts and normally they were

 8    brought to that room and military police was there to guard them.

 9       Q.   Now, with respect to these particular individuals, did you discuss

10    with Major Obrenovic the circumstances as to how they would be secured or

11    where they would be secured?

12       A.   Most likely he had arranged that with the military police.  What

13    he told me was that they needed to be under strict care and observation in

14    terms of their treatment:  bandaging, dressing the wounds, giving them

15    medication and so on.  I was told to take very good care of them in the

16    medical sense.  As for their personal safety, I guess it was arranged with

17    the military police.

18            We received our instructions in writing on the following day about

19    how to take care of the wounded.

20       Q.   Did you discuss with Major Obrenovic who would be taking care of

21    the prisoners, whether it would be doctors from the Standard or doctors

22    from the hospital, Zvornik Hospital?

23       A.   Mr. Obrenovic told me on that same day, when he came to tell me

24    that, that it had already been arranged, I guess, with the director of the

25    Zvornik medical centre, about the surgeons who would be coming every day

Page 9144

 1    to treat the wounded.  He said that they would only be treating those

 2    wounded, and not other wounded who were members of the army of Republika

 3    Srpska and who were only lightly wounded and who were staying at the

 4    clinic, which was on the floor above.  But these surgeons from the

 5    hospital came exclusively to treat these wounded.

 6       Q.   Okay.  Now, did you discuss with Major Obrenovic whether or not

 7    these wounded should be registered at the Standard?

 8       A.   Yes.  On that same day, when Mr. Obrenovic came and said what he

 9    said, he also said that the surgeons from the Zvornik medical centre would

10    be coming, so I told them -- told him that I would start medical charts

11    for them, with their daily body temperature taken and so on, their

12    diagnosis would be entered into that chart and so on.  And then I asked

13    Mr. Obrenovic whether I should also register them in the logbook, and he

14    said no, that wasn't necessary, just those charts would be sufficient.

15            Then I proposed to Mr. Obrenovic, and he agreed, that once these

16    people are taken to be exchanged to Bijeljina, then these medical charts

17    should accompany them, so that the doctors who received them at the other

18    end, after the exchange, would know exactly what kind of treatment they

19    had received because it would make their job easier, and Mr. Obrenovic

20    agreed.

21       Q.   Now, with respect to the creation of these charts, did you -- did

22    you do that with respect to each one of the wounded?

23       A.   We started these medical charts or temperature charts for each of

24    the wounded and we kept it in a file.  We typically had this for all

25    members of the Zvornik Brigade who were wounded.  In the morning, when

Page 9145

 1    doctors were doing their morning rounds, they would look at the chart and,

 2    you know, decide whether the wound needed to be dressed again, what kind

 3    of treatment they needed to receive on that day, and then the chart would

 4    be put back into the file until the following day.  And the rules were

 5    such that we made rounds several times during the day, provide water,

 6    cigarettes, whatever we could give them we did.  And as for treating the

 7    wounds, it was done by surgeons.

 8       Q.   Now, with respect to the charts that you created, they contained

 9    typical medical information, such as the temperature of the patient, blood

10    pressure, medication, age, date of birth, and name of the patient.  Is

11    that -- is that basically what information they contained?

12       A.   Correct.

13       Q.   Okay.  Now, with respect to the treatment that the wounded

14    actually received, you have indicated that that was administered by

15    doctors or surgeons from the Zvornik Hospital.  Is that right?

16       A.   Correct.

17       Q.   And with respect to the entries that they made on these medical

18    charts, did that involve your staff in any way?  Did they have to go to

19    your staff in order to get access to those charts?

20       A.   Well, yes.  As soon as the surgeon would appear in the morning, a

21    nurse would take out charts, that was the rule.  So she would take out

22    these charts with temperatures and all other information, hand them to the

23    surgeon, and the surgeon would call them in one by one, check their

24    wounds, dress them, prescribe further therapy and then the next patient

25    would come in.

Page 9146

 1            I can't remember when they typically came, but I think it was

 2    early, at about 8.00 in the morning.

 3       Q.   And did you have occasion to -- to yourself look at some of these

 4    medical charts from time to time?

 5       A.   Well, yes.  It was all on a table.  And naturally we commented

 6    upon them with surgeons.  I personally was interested in surgery, so I

 7    followed closely what surgeons did.  So there were some parameters on that

 8    chart, diagnosis, bandages, that was it.

 9       Q.   And can you tell the Court in general the type of condition these

10    wounded were in when you received them at the Standard?

11       A.   As for the types of wounds, those were not life-threatening

12    wounds.  Normally those were wounds created by shrapnels on lower

13    extremities.  What I remember is that one of them did not have an arm

14    below his elbow, and the other one did not have a leg before the knee.

15    They were properly treated.  I remember the man without the leg.  I

16    remember his last name.  I don't remember his first name but I remember

17    his last name because it was the same as mine, Begovic.

18       Q.   And with respect to that individual, you have indicated that he

19    had a -- that he was without a leg.  Was that the result of -- did it

20    appear to you that that was the result of an amputation or some kind of

21    treatment in relation to an injury?

22       A.   Yes.  An amputation was done, and one could see that it was

23    properly sutured.  The amputation was done.  I don't know whether it was

24    done in Zvornik or elsewhere, but that's how he was brought to us.  He had

25    bandages on his leg, he did not have anything below his knee.  And as for

Page 9147

 1    the other wounded, mostly shrapnels, shrapnel wounds on their legs, some

 2    of them had stomach injuries but none of them had life-threatening wounds.

 3       Q.   You have indicated also that at some point you became aware that

 4    the wounded had been removed from the centre.  And just to get an idea in

 5    terms of time, can you approximate when this was in relation to when they

 6    arrived?  How many days?

 7       A.   You mean how many days they spent with us?  Well, they were there

 8    between five to seven days, as is stated there.  I can't remember whether

 9    it was five or seven, but it was approximately that period of time.

10       Q.   Now, following their removal, can you tell us whether or not the

11    medical charts that you created went with them?

12       A.   No, the medical charts stayed with the rest of the patient files

13    where the files of the soldiers of the Zvornik Brigade were kept.  The

14    lists were not sent off with them, no.

15       Q.   And with respect to the medical papers -- well, let me rephrase

16    that.

17            Did you see that they arrived with medical papers from any -- any

18    other place, any other hospital or any other facility?

19       A.   I can recall that when they were brought, first they were in

20    Milici, then in Zvornik, then they were brought to us.  And from what I

21    can remember, they had discharge papers.  I don't know whether it was from

22    the Zvornik Hospital; there was also a hospital in Milici.  They had these

23    small discharge papers and those papers were placed together with the

24    temperature charts.  So based on those discharge papers, I was copying the

25    diagnosis from them into the temperature charts.  And all of that was put

Page 9148

 1    together in a list that was supposed to go with them when they went off

 2    for exchange.  There was supposed to be a medical escort also to go with

 3    them, but nobody informed us that they were leaving, so the documents

 4    stayed in a file together with the rest of the medical files.

 5       Q.   And when you say a medical escort, could you just tell us what you

 6    mean by that?  Do you mean a doctor or a technician or...

 7       A.   It was our custom and rule that the wounded who were sent to the

 8    Zvornik medical centre would, along with the driver, be also escorted by a

 9    medical technician.  No patient could go to the medical centre who had

10    been with us at the infirmary, who had been admitted to the infirmary,

11    could not go to the medical centre without a -- an ambulance and a medical

12    escort.  That's how it was.

13       Q.   Okay.  All right.  Now, you've -- you've indicated that part of

14    what wasn't included in your statement referred to some other individuals

15    that were brought to the Standard.  Is that right?

16       A.   I didn't understand the question.  You mean after the group, were

17    others brought in?  Is that what you mean?

18       Q.   Yes.  And that's my question.  Is that what you had indicated

19    wasn't in your statement?

20       A.   Yes, I did say that.  The group, when they were taken away, we

21    were not told where, but from the first day it was known that they were

22    going to Bijeljina for an exchange.  So I don't know whether a day or two

23    or three days later, when we were working at the clinic, the door opened

24    suddenly and a man was brought in on a stretcher.  He was carried in by

25    four people, and the fifth one was lying on the stretcher.  They were all

Page 9149

 1    Muslims, they were accompanied by a policeman or a soldier, I can't

 2    remember which, and he was wounded in the belly.  And I lifted his shirt,

 3    he was wounded in the belly, and I cleaned the wound and I said that this

 4    person has to go to Zvornik urgently, a surgeon needs to look at him

 5    because I couldn't see how deep the wound was.  But the people who brought

 6    him in said, well, the bus is waiting, they urgently have to go to

 7    Bijeljina for the exchange.  So they lifted him up and I mean it didn't

 8    take long, the whole thing took maybe some 10 minutes or so, not more than

 9    that.

10            This was after that group -- so this group and the previous group

11    had nothing to do with each other.  The other people were admitted, they

12    were treated and then they went for the exchange.  I can't remember about

13    this other group, they just came in, I looked at the wound and they left

14    very quickly because they said the transport was waiting for them.  The

15    gentleman who questioned me three years ago, I think I heard from him that

16    those people had been exchanged.  I didn't know what their fate was and

17    that was the first time I heard about that.  Three years ago, he asked if

18    I knew anything about them, and I said, I didn't.  And then he said that

19    those people had been exchanged.

20       Q.   Okay.  Just so that we can clarify this a little bit on the

21    record, with respect to the first group and the second group, could you

22    tell us approximately how many individuals were involved in this first

23    group of people that were admitted and treated, et cetera?  Approximately.

24       A.   Between 10 and 14, perhaps 10, perhaps 14, perhaps 12.  That's

25    about the size of the group approximately.

Page 9150

 1       Q.   In relation to the second group, can you tell us approximately how

 2    many individuals were involved in relation to that incident?

 3       A.   This other group I think that they were five.  Four people brought

 4    in, they were carrying the stretcher, and there was the first person lying

 5    on the stretcher.  So five.

 6       Q.   Now, with respect to the second group, those individuals you

 7    indicated were not admitted, weren't -- they weren't kept at the Standard

 8    for any length of time, right?

 9       A.   They came in suddenly.  The person was lying on the stretcher.  We

10    don't know who he was.  We could see they were Muslims.  He was wounded in

11    the belly.  The wound was dressed and he was given an IV.  I didn't know

12    if any abdominal organs were damaged, so I told the person who was

13    escorting him that the person should be taken to the Zvornik Hospital, so

14    the surgeon can look at him.  However, he said, transport is waiting for

15    them, they have to go to Bijeljina urgently, so they just picked him up

16    and that was it.  It didn't take that long; 10 minutes at the most.

17       Q.   Okay.  So for this second group, did you create any charts or

18    records in relation to them containing their names and medical

19    information?

20       A.   No, no.

21       Q.   All right.

22       A.   We didn't make any charts or anything.  It was very sudden, very

23    fast, and I dressed the wound.  I put the IV in and then they just left.

24    We didn't take their first names or their last names.  This is all I know.

25       Q.   Okay.  Now, even though you didn't take the names, were you ever

Page 9151

 1    provided with their names by anybody in relation to either their arrival

 2    or at some point after?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   All right.  Thank you very much, Doctor.  I have no further

 5    questions at this time.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 7            I've got several Defence teams wishing to cross-examine you,

 8    Dr. Begovic, with the exception of the Borovcanin Defence team which still

 9    needs to be confirmed.

10            Who wishes to go first?  Mr. Zivanovic for Accused Popovic.  Go

11    ahead.

12            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                          Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

14       Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Doctor.

15       A.   Good day.

16       Q.   I would like to ask you to tell me a couple of things relating to

17    the statement that you gave, this was on the 2nd of April, 2003.  You said

18    that you were summoned by a policeman, that he brought the summons?

19       A.   That is correct.

20       Q.   Was this summons in our language?  We call it here our language

21    the B/C/S.

22       A.   Yes, yes, it was on a piece of paper.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I suggest you slow down immediately, and

24    I think on previous occasions you had chosen to keep the headphones on so

25    that you could have an indication when the English interpretation was

Page 9152

 1    over, and that helped a lot in keeping the momentum as it should be.

 2            So, Witness, if possible, please, Dr. Begovic, if possible, please

 3    allow a short pause between question and answer so that the interpreters

 4    can carry out their job and finish translating to us.  Thank you.

 5            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   These summons that are delivered by our authorities, they contain

 7    a warning that you have to comply and turn up, otherwise you could be

 8    fined or detained.  Is that what the -- what was said in the summons too?

 9       A.   Yes, it was.  And I was surprised when the summons was delivered.

10    It was written on the back, but also he told me too that I had to comply

11    with the summons.

12       Q.   And when you did comply, did you understand that -- that you had

13    to comply, not only to come, but that you also had to provide a statement?

14       A.   Well, I didn't know what would happen.  I didn't know that a

15    statement would be involved.  There was simply said that an investigator

16    from the Tribunal is coming, he needs to see something with you and you

17    should turn up at the appropriate time.

18       Q.   Were you told that you can provide a statement, but that you do

19    not have to or did you understand that you were obliged to provide a

20    statement?

21       A.   I wasn't told that.  Simply the gentleman and the interpreter were

22    waiting for me in the room and the interview began.

23       Q.   When you say this wasn't told to you, what you mean is that you

24    were not told that you had to give a statement?

25       A.   Yes, that is correct.

Page 9153

 1       Q.   We have the date when the statement was taken, that's the 2nd of

 2    April, 2003.  I would like to ask you to tell me how long did the

 3    interview last with the investigator?

 4       A.   I can't really tell you how long it took.  It was for an hour and

 5    a half or two for sure.  I really cannot say how long it took, but that

 6    was it, approximately.

 7       Q.   Can you tell me, after speaking with the investigator, there was a

 8    written statement in English that was drafted?

 9       A.   Yes, that is correct.

10       Q.   Did you ask to read it in your own language?

11       A.   To tell you the truth, I did not.  The lady that was interpreting

12    said, I'm now going to read back to you what you stated.  And then as soon

13    as she started to read, I told her to stop and then I complained because

14    it said there that I had come voluntarily, but I had actually been

15    summoned.  So that's when we stopped, because I didn't come voluntarily.

16    I had received a summons, but the gentleman said that was it.  But that

17    wasn't it.  I had received a summons and this was not corrected.  And I

18    saw that here when I read it back two days ago.

19            Also, in several places, as she was reading, I would stop the lady

20    and make suggestions, but it stayed the way it was.  I mean, look, I

21    apologise, I explained to the gentleman that this other group was there

22    too, which is very important, and a wounded man was brought in.  It's not

23    there anywhere.

24            After this other group, it wasn't put in the statement.  The

25    gentleman asked, What about Mr. Pandurevic?  In the statement it says, I

Page 9154

 1    think that Mr. Pandurevic did not visit the wounded.  Well, he didn't

 2    because he wasn't there.  I told him that.  And this wasn't taken down.

 3    Why was it not taken down that Mr. Pandurevic wasn't there, I asked him.

 4    I saw Mr. Pandurevic the first time after all that happened was already

 5    done.  The way it looks in the statement is that Mr. Pandurevic was there,

 6    but he didn't visit them.  But he wasn't actually there, and I said in the

 7    statement.

 8       Q.   All right.  So from this answer of yours, I can conclude that you

 9    had several objections or remarks regarding the statement the way it was

10    read back to you but this was not taken into account?

11       A.   I said the same things two days ago, and I thought that that would

12    be corrected on the basis of my remarks.  I thought that that would be

13    corrected, but I see it's the same as it was two days ago.  But I signed

14    it, yes, that is true.

15       Q.   I would just like you to tell me, were you given any reasons why

16    they would not take into account the corrections?

17       A.   This is right at the end.  When it was read to me, it was signed,

18    it was read back, and I told the lady who was translating about that and I

19    saw that she asked him.  I don't speak English, but I could see that she

20    talked to him.

21            Then, also at that time, I indicated at several places, I mean

22    immediately when she started to read, immediately at the start, I didn't

23    come there voluntarily.  I had come because of the summons and that was

24    not corrected.

25       Q.   In other words, the interpreter conveyed to the investigator your

Page 9155

 1    remarks?

 2       A.   Yes, yes, yes.  That is correct.  I really didn't -- I really

 3    thought...

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  I wouldn't like to be in the interpreter's shoes.

 5    You are moving too fast.  Please slow down.  It's a matter of courtesy for

 6    the interpreters who already have a very difficult job, and on whom we

 7    need to rely.  So please slow down.

 8            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   And just one more question on this topic.  You did not receive any

10    answer from the investigator regarding your remarks?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   So since then, since the 6th of April, 2003, until a few days ago

13    when you arrived here, were you in contact with the investigators of the

14    Tribunal in that period?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Thank you.  I would now like to ask you about this other group of

17    detainees that arrived, about which you said that they didn't stay long at

18    the infirmary or the clinic.  Can you tell us approximately how much time

19    elapsed from when the first group left until the second group arrived?

20       A.   A day or two.  I cannot really remember exactly, but I think it

21    was within a day or two.

22       Q.   And just one more question.  It has to do with putting information

23    in about the first group of patients.  You said that Obrenovic told you

24    not to register these patients in your logbooks.

25       A.   I asked Obrenovic if we should put them in the logbooks and he

Page 9156

 1    said the lists are sufficient and that was it.  And when I told him that

 2    we would be sending the lists together with them, the charts, at the

 3    exchange, so that the doctors there can see how they were treated and what

 4    sort of treatment they were administered, Mr. Obrenovic disagreed and he

 5    said that that was sufficient, that we shouldn't do that.

 6       Q.   After this group left, were you in touch with Mr. Obrenovic?

 7       A.   I would see very little of Mr. Obrenovic.  I saw him that day when

 8    the order was conveyed to us, and then I didn't see him for a long time.

 9    He was absent out in the field.  There were very few of us at the barracks

10    at the time.  I would see him, but very infrequently.

11       Q.   My question is, after the group left, did you have the opportunity

12    of seeing him at all?

13       A.   I did see him, but I don't know exactly when.  You mean did I see

14    him the next day?

15       Q.   No, I'm just asking in general, did you see him?

16       A.   Yes, I would see him, but I don't know how much time had elapsed

17    since they left when I saw him.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  You started moving fast again.  Please slow down.

19            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   My last question is, did you speak with him when you saw him

21    afterwards?  Did you talk at all about this?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   You did not?

24       A.   No, I did not.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 9157

 1            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry, the witness had already answered the

 2    question and I was going to object as asked and answered.

 3            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

 4    this witness.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

 6            Who wishes to go next?  Mr. Ostojic.

 7            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  For General Beara.  You requested 30 minutes.

 9                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

10       Q.   Good morning, Dr. Begovic.  How are you?

11       A.   Very well.  Thank you.  How are you?

12       Q.   I'm fine.  Thank you.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed.

14            MR. OSTOJIC:  I was just waiting for the answer to be given.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Next we'll have the exchange of bouquets of flowers.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:

17       Q.   During your meeting with the Prosecution and their investigators,

18    did they ever show you the Zvornik Brigade duty officer logbook?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   [Previous translation continues]... also, sir, during any of the

21    meetings that you had with the Prosecution or any of their investigators,

22    did they show you any intercepts?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Can you just help me, if you remember, back in 1995, whether there

25    were any people where you worked who had the name of Ljubo?

Page 9158

 1       A.   There was a dentist Ljubo Dzeric.  I actually replaced him.  I

 2    came and he was demobilised sometime in June 1994.  He was the chief of

 3    the medical service before I arrived.  That's the Ljubo that I mean.

 4       Q.   Okay.  And his first name is Ljubomir, correct?

 5       A.   Ljubomir, yes.  That is correct.

 6       Q.   Were there any other individuals, to the best of your

 7    recollection, who were in Zvornik at that time who went by the name of

 8    Ljubo?

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  One moment.  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

10            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would object to the question.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  On what basis.

12            MR. VANDERPUYE:  On the grounds that it's not -- I don't think

13    it's properly circumscribed.  Zvornik is a pretty big area and I think

14    that the question is unfairly put to the witness and I wonder if my

15    colleague can be more precise if he's referring to a given location, group

16    or entity.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think he can answer that question.  Let's let him

18    answer it.  He's perfectly capable of answering, given what the question

19    is and how vague it is.

20            Can you repeat your question, Mr. Ostojic.

21            MR. OSTOJIC:  I will.  And I'll try to make not as vague.

22       Q.   Sir, in July of 1995, in the Zvornik area where you were, during

23    the time that you were there, do you remember any other military people

24    with the name -- going by the first name Ljubo?

25       A.   No, I don't.

Page 9159

 1            MR. OSTOJIC: [Previous translation continues]... thank you,

 2    doctor.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

 4            Who wishes to go next?  Mr. Bourgon for Nikolic.  You requested 30

 5    minutes.

 6            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7                          Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

 8       Q.   Good morning, Doctor.

 9       A.   Good morning.

10       Q.   A few questions for you today.  The first one being, the officer

11    within the headquarters who was responsible for the infirmary, I mean the

12    officer you responded to, would I be correct in saying that that was

13    Sreten Milosevic?

14       A.   Sreten Milosevic was the logistics commander and my first ranking

15    superior.

16       Q.   And I read from your statement now, Doctor, and I see that your

17    immediate supervisor was Lieutenant Nikolic.  Is that correct?

18       A.   Yes, it was Lieutenant Nikolic, but very soon, when I came to the

19    barracks in 1994, he was replaced, I think, by Sreten Milosevic.  It was

20    sometime in 1994 when I came.  I don't know whether it was in early 1995

21    or late 1994, when Bosko Nikolic was replaced by Sreten Milosevic.

22       Q.   Now, of course, as you -- my question was exactly that, that the

23    Lieutenant Nikolic we're talking about, that is not Drago Nikolic.  That's

24    correct?

25       A.   Not Drago Nikolic, but Bosko Nikolic.

Page 9160

 1       Q.   Now, my next question deals with the fact that these persons that

 2    were detained, we're talking about those Muslims and I refer now to the

 3    transcript, and that was on page 42, starting at line 21.  And you say

 4    that this wasn't the hospital, that was the barracks that had an

 5    infirmary.  And I'll just quote you from the transcript here, "Why should

 6    I explain this?  There are several entrances, so the first entrance is

 7    when you enter the compound of the Standard factory, then immediately to

 8    the right, some 20 to 30 metres was the infirmary.  The kitchen was across

 9    from the infirmary.  And then 10 to 15 metres away from us was the

10    premises of the military police and that one room where they stayed."

11            Now, my question to you is, these Muslim prisoners, they were in

12    the care and custody at that time of the military police.  Is that

13    correct?

14       A.   Yes.  It was the detention room where people, trouble-makers from

15    units were usually kept.  That was that room.

16       Q.   And my next question is, they, according to your testimony, stayed

17    at the barracks there from five to seven days, and during which -- during

18    which they were treated by the surgeons from the hospital, and you did

19    those temperature charts.  Now -- and you also described a bit what kind

20    of -- what kind of -- in what medical conditions they were.  My question

21    is simple:  These persons, when they were taken away from the Standard

22    barracks, were they fit to travel?

23       A.   Yes, they were.  Nobody was in life-threatening condition and they

24    were fit to travel.

25       Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

Page 9161

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you so much, Mr. Bourgon.

 2            Who wishes to go next?  I have the Miletic, the Gvero and the

 3    Pandurevic teams left.

 4            Madam Fauveau.

 5            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We won't have any questions for this

 6    witness, Mr. President.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madam Fauveau.  And that was for General

 8    Miletic.

 9            Mr. Josse.

10            MR. JOSSE:  The position is the same for General Gvero, Your

11    Honour.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Josse.

13            So that leaves you, Mr. Haynes.

14            MR. HAYNES:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15                          Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

16       Q.   Good morning, Dr. Begovic.

17       A.   Good morning.

18       Q.   You have mentioned that during the time you were working at the

19    Standard barracks your immediate commander was latterly Sreten Milosevic,

20    and initially Bosko Nikolic.  Were they the only two commanders you had

21    during the time that you were at Standard?

22       A.   As far as I can remember, Sreten Milosevic was replaced by

23    Major Jojic.  That's how it was.  He stayed there very briefly.  I think

24    that was in late 1995.

25       Q.   Thank you.  So in the course of about 18 months, you had three

Page 9162

 1    different commanding officers; is that right?

 2       A.   Correct.

 3       Q.   And was that typical of the sort of turnover of command staff in

 4    the Zvornik Brigade during that period?

 5       A.   I don't know if it was typical.  That's how it was.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  I'm not sure whether you've actually covered this, but

 7    we'll go into it anyway.  The facilities at the infirmary were perfectly

 8    adequate for looking after the sort of wounded people that you had there

 9    for that five or seven days, weren't they?

10       A.   Well, it was an infirmary consisting of two rooms.  We also had

11    the portion where the wounded members of the army of Republika Srpska were

12    in beds and that was up on the floor, and it was completely full.

13       Q.   And did you have permanent staff available to care for these

14    people?

15       A.   This was permanent staff.  It's just that they worked in shifts.

16    They went home and the others came, but there was always somebody there.

17       Q.   Just give us some idea.  When you say there was always somebody

18    there, was there always a doctor there and always nursing staff?

19       A.   There was always a doctor, always nurses, medical technicians.

20    When there was no combat, then male staff members would be there as well,

21    and when there was active combat, then there would be only female staff

22    there.  There would always be a doctor, since we had three male doctors

23    and three female doctors, and there would always be nurses and there were

24    always two on each shift.

25       Q.   Thank you very much.  And the doctors that visited from the

Page 9163

 1    Zvornik Hospital, did they come every morning during the time that the

 2    prisoners you've talked about were there?

 3       A.   Every morning.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Now, can you tell us this:  How far is it from the

 5    Standard barracks at Karakaj to Bijeljina?

 6       A.   Well, Zvornik-Bijeljina is 56 kilometres, which means that there

 7    is about 53 kilometres, thereabout, because Zvornik-Karakaj is two or

 8    three kilometres, so I would say 53 kilometres.

 9       Q.   And how long would it take to transport people that sort of

10    distance?

11       A.   About an hour.

12       Q.   Thank you.  So can we summarise the position as you understood it.

13    You were not expecting these prisoners to arrive; is that right?

14       A.   Correct.

15       Q.   They arrived with discharge certificates from other hospitals;

16    that's correct?

17       A.   Correct.

18       Q.   They were registered and records were kept by you as to their

19    treatment throughout the whole time they were there; is that correct?

20       A.   Records were kept by the surgeon who came, so the surgeon would

21    take the chart and the surgeon would look at the previous treatment

22    prescribed by another surgeon, you know, add, subtract, and we would

23    simply check that if we needed to assist with anything.  However, these

24    wounded were in the exclusive care of surgeons.

25       Q.   Thank you.  And just to repeat, they were adequately cared for by

Page 9164

 1    you and visited every day by staff from the hospital.  Is that right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And your expectation was that they were going to be transported to

 4    Batkovci which is in Bijeljina together with their records; is that

 5    correct?

 6       A.   In Bijeljina, not in Batkovac.  That's how it was stated

 7    originally.  Mr. Obrenovic said what I have already told you that they

 8    were going to be exchanged in Bijeljina.  I proposed to Obrenovic and he

 9    agreed that when they set out to go for the exchange, their temperature

10    charts should accompany them so that the doctors on the other end, who

11    took them over would have an easier job.  Mr. Obrenovic supported this and

12    that's where we left it off.

13       Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, just one thing whilst we're on the

14    subject of Mr. Obrenovic.  You have talked about a fax that you saw and

15    the content of that fax.  Were you able to see from the fax who it was

16    sent by?

17       A.   I'm not sure whether the fax arrived from the Main Staff or from

18    the corps.  I don't know.  To this day I don't know that.  I'm not sure

19    whether it arrived from the Main Staff or from the corps.  And I don't

20    know whether it was signed by Mr. Mladic or somebody else.  I had the fax

21    with the order, but to tell you the truth, I don't know whether it came

22    from the medical -- from the corps or from the Main Staff.  But it was in

23    writing.

24       Q.   So was it the content of that fax that gave you some idea as to

25    where it came from, if you don't know who it was from?

Page 9165

 1       A.   Well, I wouldn't be able to say, because faxes are generally

 2    similar except for the signature.  Roughly it was similar to what

 3    Mr. Obrenovic said.  Whatever Mr. Obrenovic said was written in the fax,

 4    but I don't know who wrote it, I don't know if it came from the corps or

 5    the Main Staff.

 6       Q.   So the position is this:  You saw a fax which made it plain that

 7    prisoners were to be exchanged and Major Obrenovic who was then in command

 8    of the brigade told you that these prisoners were to be exchanged.  Is

 9    that right?

10       A.   Correct.  Mr. Obrenovic said on the day before, what you just

11    repeated.  And then on the following day it arrived in writing.  Again, I

12    don't know whether it came from the Main Staff or the corps.  But whatever

13    Mr. Obrenovic said, it was said the day before the order which arrived by

14    fax.

15       Q.   Did Mr. Obrenovic ever say anything to you about seeking guidance

16    from the corps or the Main Staff as to what was to be done with wounded

17    prisoners?

18       A.   No.  He said it to me the day before it arrived in writing.  And

19    that's where it ended.

20       Q.   Thank you very much.  I just want to move on now, please, to the

21    second group that you referred to, the group of five.  Were you at the

22    infirmary the day that that group arrived?

23       A.   Yes.  I was there, and another lady doctor.

24            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the name.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were the doctors at the infirmary

Page 9166

 1    at that point in time.  The lady doctor's name is Danijela Lazic.

 2            MR. HAYNES:

 3       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  Now, so far as that group of five were

 4    concerned, were you aware whether any two of them were brothers?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Were you aware whether any of that group of five left to go to

 7    hospital and have an X-ray?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Were you aware whether that group of five were given food?

10       A.   We had some bread there and we gave them cigarettes.  I remember

11    that I had three or four packs of cigarettes.  Since I am not a smoker

12    myself, I gave this to this young patient who was 20 something.  I gave

13    all three or four packs to him and then we had some bread there and we

14    gave it to them.  That's all we had.

15       Q.   And is it your recollection that this group was there as long as

16    three hours, or not that long?

17       A.   I know that they were at our infirmary for some 10 minutes,

18    perhaps more, perhaps less.  The one who was on the stretchers was the

19    only one who was wounded.  He was lying on the stretcher.  His wound was

20    dressed, cleaned.  He was given IV fluids.  Then I said that the man who

21    was wounded had to be sent to Zvornik to be seen by a surgeon.  However,

22    the person escorting them said they were in a hurry, there is a

23    transportation awaiting them to take them to Bijeljina.  There was no time

24    to do that, and then they went.

25       Q.   Thank you very much, Doctor.  I just wonder whether we could have

Page 9167

 1    in e-court, please, 7D257.  I apologise in advance, this is not a document

 2    that has yet been translated.

 3            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  While we're waiting for

 4    that, could I ask the Court could we stay briefly after the break, after

 5    the witness leaves.  There is a matter I need to bring up just briefly; I

 6    just remembered it.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Is it in relation to the motion that you

 8    have just filed?

 9            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  I was going to raise it up myself anyway.

11            Yes, I apologise to you, Mr. Haynes, for the interruption.

12            MR. HAYNES:  Absolutely not.

13       Q.   Doctor, I'm going to need your help now.  This is a document which

14    is only in Serbian.  I'm going direct you to a passage of it and I would

15    like you to read it out loud slowly so that the interpreters can interpret

16    it into English and French for us.  Do you understand?  Do you understand

17    what I'd like you to do?

18       A.   No, I don't.  I apologise.

19       Q.   Okay.  Well, what I'm going to do in a minute is I'm going to have

20    the usher bring this document up to a passage I would like you to read.

21    But I'd like you to read it out loud slowly so that the interpreters can

22    translate it into English and French for us.  Do you understand that?

23            Could we bring the document --

24       A.   I see right now or...

25       Q.   No, I'll take you to the passage.  Can it come up a little bit?

Page 9168

 1            Can you go -- count up from the bottom, I think about 10 lines,

 2    and can you see the sentence that begins, "Doveli su"?

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  No, it's two lines above that that's where you

 4    should go.  Yeah.

 5            MR. HAYNES:  It's actually underlined the starting line.  And

 6    it -- it's about three quarters of the way along.  The cursor is in the

 7    right place.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 9            MR. HAYNES:

10       Q.   Doctor, would you mind just reading from there to the bottom of

11    the page at quite a gentle pace, please.

12       A.   Very well.  "They brought them to the administration building of

13    engineering that -- which was a construction company."

14       Q.   I think you can read a little faster than that, Doctor.

15       A.   All right.

16            "They took them into some corridor.  They searched them there.

17    They took from them shoelaces, belts, and took them to the boiler room, 11

18    of them.  The two brothers were separated; they were wounded.  (They were

19    wounded before they were arrested), one of the brothers was called Hasan,

20    they were from Osat.  Later an investigator came and policemen (they had

21    white cross-belts and belts), and they gave their personal details one by

22    one.  They did not mistreat them.  They brought another 11 people from

23    Srebrenica, and they gave them food.  They told them that the two who were

24    wounded went to see a doctor and that they should leave some food for

25    them.  They didn't take them -- they didn't bring them to the boiler

Page 9169

 1    room.  And after three hours they took out prisoners who were tied.  And

 2    next to a truck (a truck of the former JNA with tarpaulin) they saw the

 3    two wounded brothers.  They were holding X-ray pictures.  They had seen

 4    the doctor.  They took all of them to Batkovici with two police cars

 5    escorting them."

 6       Q.   Thank you very much for your help, Doctor.  Just two or three

 7    things about that.  The -- the "Inzinjering," can you see that word.  I

 8    can't say it very well, but it's on the far left-hand side, nine lines up.

 9    Go to the left, please.

10       A.   Yes, yes, I can see that.

11       Q.   That's an area -- that's an area at the Standard barracks at

12    Karakaj, isn't it?

13       A.   No.  Inzinjering is a different company.  It's not the same

14    company as Standard.  It's a company that is further.  Once you pass

15    Karakaj, you pass the Standard barracks and then some 300 or 400 metres

16    later you come to an overpass and then I think on the left is this company

17    called Inzinjering.  Inzinjering and Standard are not the same companies.

18       Q.   No, but the Inzinjering was never used as a military facility, was

19    it, in 1995?

20       A.   As far as I know, no.  Standard was used.  The shoe factory, which

21    existed before the war.  It was used as the barracks.  As for Inzinjering,

22    I don't think it was.

23       Q.   Thank you.  And the only other thing is if you just read out to

24    yourself, we're talking here about a group of people who arrived at

25    Batkovci on the 24th of July, aren't we, if you look further up the

Page 9170

 1    paragraph?  Can you see on the letter there is a date that is circled?

 2       A.   It says the 24th of July, 1995, at about 1400 hours.

 3       Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, the group that are described there with

 4    the two wounded brothers, one of whom is called Hasan and who went off to

 5    get an X-ray at hospital, that's not the same group of five you're talking

 6    about, is it?

 7       A.   The one who was brought to the infirmary in the second group that

 8    came did not have any X-rays on him.

 9       Q.   And you've already told us you weren't aware of any two of them

10    being brothers or going off to hospital.

11       A.   No, no.

12       Q.   And they certainly weren't there for three hours or so.  Is that

13    right?

14       A.   I told you they were there between five and 10 minutes.  It all

15    happened very quickly.  All I managed to do was to clean and dress the

16    wound and give him IV fluids.  That's all I had the time to do, not more

17    than 10 minutes.

18       Q.   Thank you very much.  I just want to finish with one last thing.

19    Before you met an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor, your

20    belief was that these 11 people who had been in your care at the infirmary

21    had all been sent to Bijeljina for exchange.

22       A.   Yes, correct.

23       Q.   And in the years, in the 10 years between those events and when

24    you met an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor, you heard

25    nothing from any source that caused you to think anything other than that,

Page 9171

 1    did you?

 2       A.   Correct.  I heard of them for the first time, the first group, and

 3    the second group, when the gentleman interviewed me three years ago.  I

 4    truly didn't know anything.

 5       Q.   Thank you very much, Doctor.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Haynes.

 7            Is there re-examination?

 8            Yes, Mr. Sarapa.

 9            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Correction for the transcript in two

10    places, please.  Page 66, line 20.  The witness mentioned the name of the

11    doctor or, rather, the last name of the lady doctor, who was present with

12    him.  So could we ask the witness to repeat that last name?

13            And then on page 70, line 24, the date was wrongly recorded as the

14    14th of July and it should be the 24th of July.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I can confirm that last one because I had

16    noticed it myself, but I didn't want to interrupt the witness.

17            As regards the other one, did you mention the name of the lady

18    doctor who was with you?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Danijela Lazic.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Sarapa and thank you, Dr. Begovic.

21            Is there re-examination, Mr. Vanderpuye?

22            MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, there's not, Mr. President.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Dr. Begovic, your testimony ends here.  We haven't

24    got any questions for you.  So you're free to go.  You will receive all

25    the assistance you require from the staff of our Tribunal.  On behalf of

Page 9172

 1    which I would like to thank you for having come over here to give

 2    evidence, and I also, on behalf of everyone, wish you a safe journey back

 3    home.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's go into private session for -- I

 6    mean, we'll come to the exhibits later, but let's -- in the few minutes

 7    that we have, deal with this.

 8                          [The witness withdrew]

 9                          [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9173











11 Pages 9173-9174 redacted. Private session.
















Page 9175

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                          [Open session]

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  We will now have a 25-minute break.  Thank you.

11                          --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

12                          --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's process with the exhibits first.

14            Exhibits first, Mr. Vanderpuye.

15            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We have only the

16    witness statement, P02481, to tender.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objections?  We hear none.  So admitted.

18            Defence teams, I think it was only the Pandurevic Defence team

19    that made use of a document.

20            MR. HAYNES:  Yes, it's untranslated.  It's 7D257.  It's a report

21    of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Presidency state commission for gathering

22    facts on war crimes.  Can it be marked for identification at this stage?

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Haynes.

24            Any objection.

25            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have no objection to having it marked for

Page 9176

 1    identification, but I would like to see a translation of it and perhaps

 2    reserve an objection to that extent if it is otherwise objectionable.  I

 3    can't tell from either the testimony or what I was able to see on the

 4    screen.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's not the normal practice that we resort to.

 6    It will be marked for identification purposes pending translation.  And

 7    after which it will come into the record as an exhibit.  I mean, if you

 8    have any objections in relation to the admission proper, speak now.

 9            MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's just a bit difficult for me to articulate

10    because I don't know if it contains otherwise objectionable matter other

11    than what was referred to in the testimony.  And I think the document

12    covers more material than what the witness was specifically directed to.

13    That's the only reason why I would ask to -- ask you to consider allowing

14    me to reserve the objection until I see the translation.

15            MR. HAYNES:  I'm just going to say this:  It comes from the EDS,

16    it's a Prosecution document.  We served due notice that we were going to

17    use it in cross-examination.  They should be able, with all the

18    interpreters and army of helpers they've got at their disposal, to voice

19    an objection now if they've got one.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  How many pages does that document contain?

21            MR. HAYNES:  Page and a half.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Page and a half.  And we've seen half of it.

23                          [Trial Chamber confers]

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't want to blow this up, but the usual practice

25    that we have followed here is to mark it for identification pending

Page 9177

 1    translation and then it will become a full exhibit.  On the other hand --

 2    even if one were to entertain objections here, and entertain objections

 3    against the admission of the document, et cetera, part of it or the -- the

 4    part which was of relevance to Mr. Haynes was read out and it's in the

 5    record already.

 6            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have no problem with that.  My only concern was

 7    with respect to extraneous material.  I'm perfectly fine following the

 8    process.  If I discover that there's something egregious in the document

 9    later, I'll bring it to the attention of the Court.  At this point, I will

10    withdraw the objection and proceed.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  So it's admitted on that condition, marked for

12    identification pending translation.

13            Gentlemen and ladies, can I come back to you on the two pending

14    motions, one oral, one written, seeking protective measures for the next

15    two witnesses.

16            Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

17            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think we've all

18    basically met and discussed it and conferred with our learned friends at

19    the Prosecution.  We don't really see that the rules have been followed

20    specifically, especially at the late stage, but we do not have an

21    objection to that request, if the witnesses feel there is some need and we

22    would defer to your better judgement on that, of course.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  We want to know whether there is any objection from

24    any one of the other Defence teams.  You seem to be speaking on behalf of

25    everyone.  So we take it that there is no objection.  Just one moment.  I

Page 9178

 1    need to confer again with my colleagues with whom I have discussed

 2    already.

 3                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  So our decision is as follows, and we are deciding

 5    both motions, that relating to the next witness who is Witness 152, and

 6    the other relating to Witness 155, the latter of which is the subject

 7    matter of the written motion.

 8            We have opted to go on an abundance of caution approach,

 9    particularly basing ourselves on the fact that both parties are in

10    agreement that granting of protective measures in these two cases could be

11    appropriate, or may be appropriate.  We would also, however, like to make

12    it clear that we are not saying anything beyond this.  In particular, we

13    don't want this decision to serve later on as a precedent for granting

14    protective measures to others who may have similar or identical

15    conditions.

16            So the protective measures are a pseudonym and -- pseudonym and

17    face distortion.  Even for the first witness that we are going to hear for

18    the first one, the one who will be entering the courtroom?

19            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would apply for it.  But I would leave it

20    really in your discretion.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm asking you because since this is -- has not been

22    incorporated in a written document, Mr. McCloskey referred to -- and you,

23    to protective measures, but not identifying any.  I mean, we take it that

24    pseudonym is -- is usual, normal.  Yes.

25            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Pseudonym and face distortion.  We just -- because

Page 9179

 1    of the problems related to voice, and given the history, I wouldn't ask

 2    for that.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  So both motions are granted and I

 4    wish to thank the members of the various Defence teams for their

 5    cooperation.  Thank you.

 6            While we are waiting for the witness, you may have heard in the

 7    course of last week and this week that there was an anticipated strike,

 8    transport strike for Friday, this Friday.  We've just received a

 9    confirmation that although the strike is still on it will not affect the

10    transfer of our detainees to and from the Tribunal.  Therefore, the

11    scheduled trials for Friday will go ahead as planned.  So if anyone was

12    planning to stay working at home or in the office on Friday, now you need

13    to forget all about it.

14                          [The witness entered court]

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon to you, sir.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  And welcome to this Tribunal.  You are about to

18    start giving evidence, which will take some time.  Before you start, you

19    need to make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth.

20    Madam Registrar is giving you the text of it.  Please read it out aloud

21    and that will be your commitment with us that you will testify the truth.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23    the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

24                          WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-162

25                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 9180

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.  Please make yourself comfortable.

 2    Take a seat.  I'll be only a minute.

 3            Mr. Vanderpuye, who you have met already, will go first.  He will

 4    be referring you to statements and will also ask you a few questions.  He

 5    will then be followed by various of the Defence teams on

 6    cross-examination.  I do not anticipate your testimony to finish today,

 7    possibly also not tomorrow.  You might still be here afterwards, until

 8    Monday.

 9            So, Mr. Vanderpuye.

10            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11                          Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

12       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

13       A.   Good afternoon.

14       Q.   Could you just bear with me for one second.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, before you continue, because -- just before you

16    entered the courtroom, that's about an hour ago, not just before, the

17    Prosecution asked for your behalf to have in place some protective

18    measures.  And that's for reasons that you explained to the Prosecution

19    and which the Prosecution explained to us in turn.  We consulted with the

20    various Defence teams, and the various Defence teams also agreed with the

21    Prosecution that it would be appropriate to have two protective measures

22    in place.  One is the use of a pseudonym instead of your name, and that's

23    why I didn't address you by your name when you entered the courtroom.  The

24    second is we are going to hide your visual appearance.  There will be a

25    facial -- what we call a facial distortion.  I trust this has been

Page 9181

 1    explained to you and that it is to your satisfaction.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am satisfied.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you.

 4            Back to you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

 7       A.   Good afternoon.

 8       Q.   I'm going to hand a document, P02484, for the record.  Please take

 9    a look at that and can you just confirm that you are the person named on

10    it without reading it out loud?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Okay.  I'm going to put to you some questions, but before I do, I

13    just wanted to point out a couple of things.  As the President has

14    indicated, you are the beneficiary of certain protective measures.  And in

15    my questions to you, I will try to be as mindful of that as I can, and I

16    will try to avoid mentioning anything that may tend to reveal your

17    identity.  And I would ask that, first, you try to do the same thing.

18    Second, that when you -- before answering a question, you allow a short

19    pause so that the translators can translate what's been said into the

20    various languages.  And that you wait until the end of the question before

21    you commence your answer, and ask if there is anything that's unclear

22    about the question.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.  Before you proceed.  And just in

24    case Mr. Vanderpuye, since we are not privy to what the testimony -- what

25    the witness will -- the details of the witness's testimony, I'm leaving it

Page 9182

 1    entirely in your discretion to inform us in good time if we need to have

 2    recourse to Rule 90(E).  I don't know.  You should be in a much better

 3    position than the Trial Chamber.  But if it's the case, please come back

 4    to us.

 5            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Can we go into private

 6    session?  I would like to go into basic background of the witness.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's go into private session

 8           [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session.

10            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

11       Q.   Sir, can you tell us where you were born?

12       A.   I was born in Bratunac.

13       Q.   Okay.  And where were you raised?

14       A.   In Bratunac.

15       Q.   And did you attend school there, work there?

16       A.   I completed elementary school in Bratunac and secondary school in

17    Bijeljina, and first level of college in -- in Tuzla.  And I worked for my

18    whole life in Bratunac.

19       Q.   Now, at some point in your career you became active in politics,

20    in local, municipal politics.  Is that right?

21       A.   Yes, it is.

22       Q.   And could you tell us briefly what positions you held in municipal

23    politics?

24       A.   I held several positions in municipal politics during wartime and

25    also before the war.  Before the war I was in the League of Communists and

Page 9183

 1    I had positions there.  I was a member of the municipal committee in

 2    Bratunac.  I was a councilman in the municipal assembly.  I also was the

 3    vice-president of the municipal council of Bratunac.  All of this was

 4    before the war.

 5            When war broke out I -- well, before the war, I worked at the

 6    local police as well for one term of office, as deputy chief of the

 7    Bratunac police.  This was from 1980 to 1984.  After that I was appointed

 8    as director of the people's university in Bratunac, and I worked there

 9    until the beginning of the war.  That's what -- that was my job when the

10    work -- when the war broke out in 1991.

11            From October 1994 on, I worked as president of the Bratunac

12    municipality Executive Board.  I was appointed to that work by Bratunac

13    municipal assembly and I worked there until March 1997, when I came back

14    and was the director of the Bratunac cultural centre.  This is a brief

15    overview of my political and other jobs.

16       Q.   Okay.  In 1995, if I could just direct your attention to July of

17    that year.  You held the position in Bratunac as president of the

18    Executive Board at that time; is that right?

19       A.   That is right.

20       Q.   Okay.  And can you tell us briefly what your responsibilities were

21    in that position?

22       A.   The Executive Board is a body that is like a government.  I was at

23    the head of that local government.  That is the sort of description of

24    what an Executive Board is.  Should I also say what the duties of the

25    Executive Board were at that time?

Page 9184

 1            At the time, the Executive Board was - if I can just collect

 2    myself for a minute - logistics brigade to the Bratunac Brigade, at the

 3    time that was our number one task.  Then in relation to the population, to

 4    provide utilities to the citizens and to the town to make sure the town

 5    had water, electricity, that the schools were working, the health

 6    institutions were working, that the town was properly supplied with food,

 7    articles, that the shops were working.  Because in Bratunac itself, there

 8    were no combat actions, only around Bratunac.  So that would be in brief

 9    what the duties of the Executive Board were in that period.

10       Q.   Thank you for that.  If I could, I'd like to draw your attention

11    specifically to the 11th of July of that year, of 1995.  Do you recall

12    that day?

13       A.   Yes, I do.

14       Q.   Okay.  And could you tell us basically what you recall

15    specifically about that day?

16       A.   I remember that that day I went to a village of Pribicevac, which

17    is about 20 kilometres from Bratunac.  The 3rd Battalion of the Bratunac

18    Brigade was accommodated in that village, and in this 3rd Battalion of the

19    Bratunac Brigade was where my son was, who was in charge of the battalion

20    logistics.  I went to Pribicevac --

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  We are in private session, all right.

22    Okay.

23            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I was just going to ask if we could go to open

24    session from this point forward.  I'm sorry.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  But please, Witness, look at me.  We are going into

Page 9185

 1    open session now.  And you need to avoid saying things which could

 2    identify you.  Just now, for example, you stated what position your son

 3    held and where.  That could go as a means of identifying you.  So don't

 4    mention names associated with you that could identify you or events with

 5    which you are associated in a way that could identify you.  All right?

 6            Okay.  Let's go into open session, please.

 7                          [Open session]

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

 9            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  Thank you.

10       Q.   I believe you were -- you were talking about having gone to

11    Pribicevac.  Could you tell the Court -- could you tell the Court why it

12    is that you went there and if it calls for -- well, if it calls for a

13    name, just avoid mentioning any names.

14       A.   I went to visit the 3rd Battalion and to see what was going on

15    there.  And I stopped by this logistics unit and I stayed there with the

16    people I knew.

17       Q.   Now, did you go there alone or did you go with somebody?  And...

18       A.   There was another man with me from the brigade, a friend.

19            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Can we just go into private session to identify

20    this person?

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, by all means, let's go into private session

22            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session.

24            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25       Q.   Can you tell us who the person is now that you went to Pribicevac

Page 9186

 1    with?

 2       A.   Assistant commander for logistics was with me.  He cooperated

 3    closely with the Executive Board when it came to logistics for the

 4    brigade, so we went there together in order to see what the situation was

 5    with the army when it came to uniforms, footwear, cigarettes, food, and so

 6    on.

 7       Q.   Now, we are still in private session, so I would ask if you could

 8    just name the person for the record so the Court knows who we are talking

 9    about.

10       A.   Dragoslav Drisic.

11            MR. VANDERPUYE:  We can go to open session, please.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's revert to open session, please

13                          [Open session]

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

15            MR. VANDERPUYE:

16       Q.   Can you tell us about what time of day that occurred?

17       A.   It would have been in the morning, about 10 or 11.00.  10.00 in

18    the morning.

19       Q.   And did you have an opportunity to discuss with this person the

20    genesis, the reason why you were going there before you actually embarked?

21       A.   You mean with the person I went there with?  Is that the person

22    you have in mind?

23       Q.   Yes.

24       A.   Yes, our goal was to see whether they needed anything in the 3rd

25    Battalion in terms of clothes, footwear, food, cigarettes.  The kitchen

Page 9187

 1    was up there.  We wanted to see how it was operated, whether they had

 2    enough of everything, whether the troops were satisfied.  That was the

 3    purpose of our visit there.

 4       Q.   Okay.  Now, can you tell us, while you were there, you've

 5    mentioned that you did go there to see someone.  Did you see anybody else

 6    while you were there that day?

 7       A.   In the house where the logistics was billeted, I stayed there with

 8    a person who was close to me and we sat there in the house.  As for the

 9    friend who had arrived there with me, he went to the command post, which

10    was some 200 to 300 metres further away.

11            As I sat there in the house and talked with this close person, a

12    vehicle stopped in front of the house.  General Mladic came out of it.

13    General Zivanovic was with him.

14       Q.   Now, did you at any point have any contact with either General?

15       A.   When the vehicle stopped in front of the house and when the

16    soldiers started saying, "Here's the General, here's his vehicle," it was

17    the Puch, everybody dispersed.  And it was only the people who were in

18    that logistics unit who remained there.  I came out of the house into the

19    yard.  General's vehicle was some 30 metres away from the house.  It

20    couldn't come any closer because there was a truck parked in front of the

21    house, a military truck, and they were loading ammunition or some military

22    equipment on to the truck.  Thus the General couldn't come closer with his

23    vehicle, so he started cursing and yelling, saying, "Who parked this

24    vehicle here?"  He was saying all this on the go, as he was moving about.

25    And in doing so, he came close to me.  I stood there and he yelled at

Page 9188

 1    me, "Who are you?  What are you doing here?"

 2            I introduced myself and he said angrily, "Get out of here."  You

 3    know, "Go to the command post."  I felt uncomfortable because I had come

 4    there in civilian clothes without weapons.  Knowing the General, I was

 5    worried that he would criticise me for coming there without weapons or

 6    anything.  So I figured that I should go into that house, grab somebody's

 7    rifle, and then go to the command post, as he told me.

 8            So I went in, found somebody's rifle, I don't know whose it was, I

 9    took it and then I was about to leave the house with it when I again came

10    across the General at the door.  He started yelling at me, saying, "Are

11    you still here?"  I just kept quiet, ran outside, and then moved away.

12            As I was walking towards the command post *I came across Miroslav

13    Deronjic, president of the municipal board of the SDS and Miodrag

14    Josipovic, chief of police in Bratunac.  I asked them how come you're

15    here?  And they said, We're running away from the General.  He's yelling

16    at everyone.  I told them about the unpleasant encounter that I had just

17    had with him and then we sat down in that spot from which we could see the

18    house where the logistics support was.

19            When we saw that the General moved away with his vehicle, I went

20    back to the house.  I said good-bye to this close person.  My friend

21    joined me by that time and then we got into the car that we had arrived

22    there in originally and went back.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Let's go into private session for a

24    while, please.

25            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

Page 9189

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Vanderpuye, reading through page 89 through

 2    lines 7 to 9, at least two persons, namely Miroslav Deronjic, if he

 3    happens to be following the proceedings or to read this transcript, and

 4    Miodrag Josipovic, if he is still alive and is following or may read, who

 5    would immediately recognise who the witness is.  I don't know if you wish

 6    to redact or not.

 7            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think out of an abundance of caution we can --

 8    we can move to redact.  I'll try to --

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, okay.

10            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'll try to direct the witness.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's redact the names of those two individuals.

12    Redact not only the names, but also their position at the time.  Delete

13    the next two -- all the words for the next two lines after the words, "I

14    came across," the end of line 7 on page 89.

15            Okay.  Let's revert to open session, please.

16                          [Open session]

17            MR. VANDERPUYE:  We are in open session?

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we are now, yes.

19            MR. VANDERPUYE:

20       Q.   You had made a number of references previously to a General,

21    just -- just now as you have been testifying.  And you had indicated

22    previous to that that you had contact -- well, that General Mladic was

23    together with General Zivanovic.  And with respect to the General that you

24    have been speaking about having had an interaction with, which General is

25    that, so that it's clear for the record?

Page 9190

 1       A.   You mean my unpleasant encounter?

 2       Q.   Yes, I mean your unpleasant encounter.

 3       A.   General Mladic.

 4       Q.   Okay.  Now, you indicated that you encountered two individuals who

 5    you described previously.  Did you encounter any -- any other person that

 6    you knew before you left for the day?

 7       A.   Where do you mean?  That I met them.

 8       Q.   I'm asking if you met anyone else in and around the vicinity of

 9    the command when you were in that area after having met the two people

10    that you've just described in your testimony.

11       A.   That was at Pribicevac.  That wasn't at the command post, no.

12    That was out in the field, 20 kilometres from Bratunac.  This is where the

13    3rd Battalion was billeted.  I didn't meet anybody else there.

14       Q.   All right.

15       A.   Because this is out in the field.

16       Q.   Okay.

17            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Could we go into private session for just a

18    moment?

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  It will be just a moment because we are due to

20    adjourn in about a minute's time.

21            MR. VANDERPUYE:  This would be actually the point then to break if

22    it's all right with the Court.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Then we will go back to open session.

24            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

25            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session.

Page 9191

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's why I said, are you finishing this or are we

 2    breaking?

 3            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think it would be a good time to break.  Thank

 4    you.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's what I thought.  So let's go into open

 6    session.

 7                          [Open session]

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  It's time and we stand adjourned until tomorrow

 9    morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

10                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

11                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

12                          March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.














* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012