Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9192

 1                          Thursday, 22 March 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, everybody.  Hopefully we will have a

 7    good day.

 8            Madam Registrar, could you kindly call the case, please.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

10    IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, ma'am.  All the accused are here.

12    Amongst the Defence teams I notice only the absence -- I notice the

13    absence of only Mr. Haynes.

14            The Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Vanderpuye.

15            The witness is already in his chair.  I take it, therefore, that

16    there are no preliminaries.  Is there anything wrong with Mr. Haynes or

17    he's just working elsewhere?

18            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] No, he is not ill.  He is healthy and

19    he will join us tomorrow.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you.

21            So, good morning to you, sir.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  And once more, welcome.  Mr. Vanderpuye will be

24    proceeding with his examination-in-chief.  May I just remind you that you

25    are still -- that the solemn declaration that you made yesterday is still

Page 9193

 1    valid today and will continue to be valid throughout your entire

 2    testimony, until it is over.

 3            Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

 5    Honours.  Good morning, counsel.

 6                          WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-162 [Resumed]

 7                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                          Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:  [Continued]

 9       Q.   Good morning, Witness.  I think yesterday we left off, and you

10    were talking about having gone to Pribicevac and we had just about -- we

11    were talking about the events of the 11th of July, and I was just asking

12    the Court if we could go into private session, so if we could do that?

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's do that straight away.

14            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session now.

16            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question, please.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, yesterday I

22    made a mistake, an omission, actually, and I would like to explain if you

23    would allow me to do so and it will only take a minute.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  By all means.  That's what you are here for, to give

25    us the full, correct version of the events.  Yes, go ahead.

Page 9194

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has to do with the 11th of July

 2    and my stay in Pribicevac.  It is true that on that day I arrived in

 3    Pribicevac to see a person very close to me.  It is also true that on that

 4    occasion I met up with General Mladic and I explained that meeting and I

 5    described it.  It is true that in Pribicevac I also met with two persons,

 6    MD and JM.  However, I made a mistake in the sense of speaking about DT.

 7    On that day, he was not with me at Pribicevac; he was there two days

 8    before, on the 9th.  And this is the mistake I made yesterday with regards

 9    to that date.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether I have made

12    myself clear.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we are in private session so there is no

14    problem in mentioning names while we are in private session.  I just want

15    to make sure that we know who you are talking about.

16            Okay.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

17            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Witness, for your clarification.

19            MR. VANDERPUYE:  We're still in private session.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we are in private session.

21            MR. VANDERPUYE:

22       Q.   Thank you for that, Witness.  I want to ask you, do you know a

23    person by the name of Tesic?

24       A.   I do.  I saw that person in Pribicevac, Aleksandar Aco Tesic.  He

25    was the chief of the secretariat for national defence in Bratunac

Page 9195

 1    municipality.

 2       Q.   Okay.  And when you were in Pribicevac on the 11th, did you see

 3    him there?

 4       A.   Aco Tesic?

 5       Q.   Yes.

 6       A.   Yes, I did.  He arrived maybe two hours after me, and he brought

 7    people who were doing work obligation.  He brought them to Pribicevac.

 8    Those were people of military age who had worked in various companies

 9    which means that they had not been mobilised into the army, but they had

10    work obligation.  He mobilised them and brought them up there, maybe two

11    hours after I got there.  We did not get there together, in other words.

12    I came on my own in a vehicle.  And then I -- when I was talking about

13    that I made that mistake and I thought that we were talking about the 9th

14    and that's why I mentioned the Dragan Tesic as being there on the 11th.  I

15    was with him.

16       Q.   I see.

17            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we can go back to open session.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Let's go back to open

19    session, please.

20                          [Open session]

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

22            MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just go back into private session.  I

23    need to get the names on the record.  I apologise for that.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's what I hinted at, but I thought you didn't

25    mind proceeding.  So let's go back.

Page 9196

 1            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session again.

 3            MR. VANDERPUYE:

 4       Q.   Witness, you indicated certain initials when you were just

 5    talking.  One was MD.  Can you tell us who that is for the record?

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session, Witness, so you don't

 7    need to worry.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Miroslav Deronjic.

 9            MR. VANDERPUYE:

10       Q.   You also gave the initials JM.  Can you tell us who that is?

11       A.   Miodrag Josipovic, the chief of the police station in Bratunac.

12       Q.   Okay.  And you also gave the initials DT.  Can you tell us who

13    that is?

14       A.   Dragan Trisic, assistant commander for logistics of the Bratunac

15    Brigade.

16       Q.   Okay.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we go now to open session?

18            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, please.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's revert to open session, please.

20                          [Open session]

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session, Mr. Vanderpuye.

22            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

23       Q.   When you met these people in Pribicevac, did you have a prior

24    arrangement to meet them all or was it merely coincidental that you met on

25    the 11th of July?

Page 9197

 1       A.   Are we in private session?

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  No, we are not in private session now.  Now we are

 3    in open session.  Just don't mention the names, please.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With MD and JM I had a coincidental

 5    meeting.  As for AT, I knew I would meet him up there in Pribicevac.  In

 6    other words, I only knew about AT, that I would meet him there.  As for

 7    the others, the meeting was purely coincidental.

 8            MR. VANDERPUYE:

 9       Q.   All right.  You indicated earlier that you -- you knew that there

10    was one individual who you met on the 11th that had been up in the -- in

11    that area on the 9th.  Can you tell us how you came to know about that?

12       A.   The person that I mentioned as having been there on the 9th of

13    July was not in Pribicevac on the 11th of July and this is where I

14    corrected my yesterday's statement.  In other words, DT was not there on

15    the 11th, together with me.  He was in Pribicevac two days before, on the

16    9th of 11 -- of July.  That is when we had arranged in Bratunac to go up

17    there.  We set up a meeting and we went to Pribicevac together on the 9th.

18            I told you why we had gone there.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I don't want you to read me being

20    finicky, but I am a little bit concerned because, even with the use of the

21    initials, I think if that person is still alive he would be able to

22    identify the witness.  Maybe I am being over abundantly cautious, but I

23    would like you to think about it and, if necessary, we will redact it.

24            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I agree with the Court's concern.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know.  I mean, I wonder what the Defence

Page 9198

 1    teams think about it.  Because I don't want to overdo it.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, Your Honours.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's hear the witness.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind if these persons whose

 5    initials we're mentioning know that I am testifying.  When I asked for

 6    protective measures, this was not because of them.  In other words, these

 7    people can be aware of the fact that I am testifying and that I am

 8    mentioning their names or their initials.  Have I been of any assistance

 9    to you?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  You have been extremely helpful, Witness.  I think

11    we don't need to redact at this point and we can proceed.

12            Mr. Vanderpuye.

13            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  All right.  You indicated yesterday that at a

15    certain point you left Pribicevac.  And can you tell us where you went?

16       A.   As far as I can remember, I stayed in Pribicevac for about two

17    hours or maybe longer or even shorter.  After that I returned to Bratunac,

18    to my office.  I went there by car.

19       Q.   All right.  Now, I'd like to draw your attention to the 12th of

20    July, if I could.  And can you tell us what occurred on that day, as best

21    as you can remember?

22       A.   When I returned from Pribicevac, as I was sitting in my office,

23    sometime in the afternoon or even in the evening, I met up with DM.  He

24    informed me that on the following day at 8.00 I should be at the command

25    of the Bratunac Brigade.  And I'm talking about 8.00 on the 12th of July.

Page 9199

 1    I did that.  I went to work at 7.00, when my working day starts, and from

 2    there I went to the command.  When I got there they sent me to a room

 3    which was in -- on the ground floor and it was used as a meeting room at

 4    the command.

 5            In that room I saw General Mladic, who was already there.  I can't

 6    say for a fact who else was there with General Mladic.  I know that the

 7    Blagojevic, the commander of the brigade, was not there.  There may have

 8    been some two or three other officers there, I don't know who they were,

 9    however.  I'm only sure that the -- the General was there.  We greeted

10    each other as I entered the room.

11       Q.   May I just ask you one thing, just so that the record is clear.

12    In page 7, line 23 of the transcript, there is an indication that you met

13    with DM.  And I was just wondering whether DM is MD, and if you could

14    clarify that.  I think you know what I'm talking about.

15       A.   It is possible that sometimes I swap the places of the first name

16    and the last name, and I apologise for doing that.  It was MD who informed

17    me that evening that on the following morning I should be at that meeting.

18    To my surprise, he himself did not attend that meeting at 8.00.  So MD, he

19    had informed me about the meeting, he said that he would be there, but he

20    wasn't.  I was the first one to arrive there and the General and some

21    other officers had already been there.

22            As I greeted the General, the General told me, "I don't see you in

23    Srebrenica a lot."  And I told him, "General, I have other things to do.

24    I have my everyday work to tend to."

25            Then he offered me a seat.  We sat down.  And at that moment AT

Page 9200

 1    appeared.  I have already mentioned him with regard to the events in

 2    Pribicevac.  And this is what I skipped.  While I was there on my own,

 3    General talked to me and asked me, "What do you think we should do with

 4    the Muslims from Srebrenica?"  I was taken by surprise.  I asked

 5    him, "What do you mean, what you should do?"  He said, "Well, Srebrenica

 6    has been liberated."  So I told him, "Why don't you let them stay at their

 7    homes?"  And he said, "What if they don't want to stay?"  Then I said, "I

 8    don't know."

 9            I knew that in 1992 they had gone to Tuzla and Kladanj.  I told

10    him that we should see what these people wanted at that moment.  Then AT

11    appeared and the General asked him the same thing.  Maybe two or three

12    minutes later another person appeared and that was the local priest.

13    Again, the General asked him the same question.  Maybe I was wrong to

14    mention this, and then LJS appeared and he asked him the same question,

15    and they provided him with almost identical answers as I did, as if we had

16    been in agreement, although none of us knew why we had been invited to the

17    command.  We didn't know that the General was waiting for us there and

18    that we would be asked this thing.

19            I spent not more than half an hour at the command.

20       Q.   Can I just ask --

21       A.   And I really --

22       Q.   I'm sorry, finish your answer and then I'll ask you a question.

23       A.   And the half an hour meeting with the General, I did not perceive

24    it as a meeting, actually.  I perceived it as something of an informal

25    conversation, i.e., an opportunity for him to inform me to be at the

Page 9201

 1    Fontana Hotel at 10.00, for yet another meeting.

 2            In other words, my meeting at 8.00, which was not a meeting, was

 3    just an opportunity for me to be informed about the meeting that was to

 4    take place at 10.00.  The General didn't tell us what the agenda of the

 5    meeting at 10.00 would be.  He just asked us to be there at 10.00.

 6       Q.   Okay.

 7            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Now, can we go into private session for just a

 8    moment?

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's go into private session.

10            MR. VANDERPUYE:

11       Q.   You've indicated --

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Wait a moment.

13            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are now in private session.

15            MR. VANDERPUYE:

16       Q.   You have indicated another set of initials, this time LJS.  Can

17    you tell us who that is?

18       A.   Ljubisa Simic, the president of the Bratunac municipality

19    assembly.

20       Q.   Okay.

21            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Can we go into open session, please.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's do that.

23                          [Open session]

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are now in open session.

25            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 9202

 1       Q.   Now, Witness, you indicated that you were informed to be at a

 2    meeting at 10.00 on the same day.  Did you go to the meeting?

 3       A.   I did.

 4       Q.   And can you tell us if, during the course of the meeting, or at

 5    the end of the meeting, I should say, if you were given a particular task?

 6       A.   Are you referring to the 8.00 meeting?

 7       Q.   I'm sorry, I'm referring to the 10.00 --

 8       A.   Or the 10.00 meeting?  Yes.

 9       Q.   Okay.  And can you just tell us what that was?

10       A.   Out of the four of us who were there at 8.00, only I and LJS were

11    invited to the other meeting at 10.00 and together we went to that meeting

12    at 10.00.  The meeting ended, and LJS and I were given a task based on the

13    conclusions of that meeting that we should play a humanitarian role

14    towards the population that was in Potocari.  When I say that we had a

15    humanitarian role, I mean that we were asked to provide the population

16    with water, food, medicines, in keeping with our abilities.

17            In Potocari, according to what was said at the meeting, there were

18    some 20.000 people.  The day was scorchingly hot; the temperatures were in

19    the 30s.  LJS and I were given the task to play the humanitarian role, to

20    be in charge of the water and the food that would be delivered to these

21    people in Potocari.

22       Q.   Now, when you were given this assignment, it was only given to the

23    two of you, as you have indicated, out of all of the people that were at

24    the meeting.  Is that right?

25       A.   Yes.  The only present civilians from the civilian authorities

Page 9203

 1    were the two of us and MD.

 2       Q.   Okay.

 3            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Can we just go into private session for a moment,

 4    please.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's go into private session.

 6            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session.

 8            MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.

 9       Q.   Just so that the record is clear, can you just tell us who the

10    people were that were present at that meeting that you recall?  And this

11    is the 10.00 meeting, so that...

12       A.   The meeting was attended by General Mladic, General Krstic, the

13    commander of DutchBat, of UNPROFOR, and his deputy.  There were two other

14    VRS officers there.  I think that they were Colonel -- a colonel and a

15    lieutenant-colonel but I didn't know them, their faces were not familiar.

16    Muslim representatives were also present.  It was a three-member

17    delegation, Nuhanovic Ibro, Nesib Mandzic and a woman who is name was

18    Camila.  Out of the Muslim delegation I knew Ibro Nuhanovic really well,

19    but Mandzic Nesib, Camila I just knew superficially, but I knew Ibro

20    Nuhanovic well, he was an economist with a degree.  He completed his

21    elementary education in Bratunac.  Then after the war started, he lived

22    and worked in Bratunac, so we knew each other well.  Dragomir Vasic was

23    also there, he was the head of the public security station in Zvornik, and

24    as I said, there was Miroslav Deronjic, Ljubisa Simic and myself as

25    representatives of civilian authority.  So that was the attendance at the

Page 9204

 1    meeting.  The meeting was conducted by General Mladic.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  While we are at -- in private session, because my

 3    mind is still working on how -- how cautious we have to be, how careful we

 4    have to be during the public sessions.  The witness said earlier on that

 5    he doesn't mind -- he wouldn't mind, but his concerns are rather not

 6    focused on the three or four persons that he has mentioned he wouldn't

 7    mind them identifying him as testifying again.  But at the back of my mind

 8    I have this preoccupation:  That this gentleman has already testified in

 9    Jokic and in Blagojevic, and there will be others that may have or would

10    have followed his testimony then.  I speak for myself, but I take it that

11    none of us four have read his testimony in either Blagojevic or Jokic,

12    because we usually don't do that when it's a viva voce witness.

13            But, assuming that he is repeating what he had testified in those

14    two cases without protective measures, I'm not that sure inside that he

15    might not be identified.  So I'm going to rely entirely on your good

16    judgement, and you seem to be a very alert witness, sir.  If at any moment

17    you feel that we should go into private session, please do let us know and

18    we will.

19            We are in private session at the moment, so do we remain or do we

20    move into open session for the next question?

21            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we can move into open session, but before

22    we do, I just wanted to point out that the subject matter alone of the

23    testimony, read in conjunction with the witness's prior testimony, I

24    think, raises the same concern in any event.  And so I am trying to do my

25    best to --

Page 9205

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  No, no, I rely on your good judgement.  If I

 2    wasn't assured of that, I mean, I would act differently.  But I think I --

 3    we are in good hands, both the witness and you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Josse.

 6            MR. JOSSE:  Can I make one suggestion, Your Honour, whilst we're

 7    in private session.  The Court asked the witness exactly what his concerns

 8    are, partly because of the expedited nature of the application.  It hasn't

 9    been dealt with perhaps as fully as it might otherwise be and that might

10    help both the Chamber as well as my learned friend.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I think that's a very good point that you have

12    raised, Mr. Josse.

13            Witness, while we are still in private session, you asked the

14    Prosecution to, in turn, ask for protective measures to be placed in -- to

15    be put in place for you.  And we have granted them.  What are you

16    really -- what are your real concerns?  Why would you want to hide your

17    identity?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain, Your Honours?

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please do.  Because it will help us immensely

20    take decisions as we go along.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked for protective measures for

22    one reason alone.  On Saturdays there is a report broadcast in our area

23    called, "The Hague Diary," that's what it's called, and it lasts for half

24    an hour.  I cannot remember the journalist, who is a Muslim by ethnicity,

25    and he provides a review of the week in half an hour.  And then there are

Page 9206

 1    items from different trials, including this trial.

 2            Sometimes they -- how can I put it.  In one sentence, taken out of

 3    context, they present something to the public, and then that takes on a

 4    completely different dimension in the area where I live.  At the moment,

 5    the Srebrenica and Bratunac area is in an upheaval.  I don't know if

 6    you've heard this proposal that Srebrenica should step out of Republika

 7    Srpska.  So the political mood is elevated, and I'm afraid that the

 8    journalist will take one sentence from my testimony and present it in a

 9    negative context and that will reflect negatively upon me in my community.

10            So I asked for protective measures because of the media, because

11    of journalists, not because of the people.  What I state here I am going

12    to state that as they say, before God and the people.  I have come here to

13    speak the truth, and I am speaking the truth.  But I'm afraid of

14    journalists' tricks and that they don't sully my testimony by using a

15    sentence in a particular way in a connotation that may be harmful to me.

16    This is why I sought protective measures.  There is no other reason.  If

17    you can guarantee to me that no journalist over there would mention me,

18    then I agree that I testify in public.  Basically, these are my reasons

19    but, of course, it's up to you to decide.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  I can't give you that guarantee.  Ask me something

21    else.  But I think we've got a clear picture.

22            Use your good judgement, as I said before.  And I thank you, Mr.

23    Josse, for your input.

24            Yes, whenever it's convenient to revert to open session,

25    Mr. Vanderpuye, please, let me know.

Page 9207

 1            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we're actually in the process of doing

 2    that, and that would be fine, if we could go to open session.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go to open session again.

 4                          [Open session]

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7       Q.   Now, the tasks that you were assigned, were you assigned by

 8    General Mladic?

 9       A.   Yes.  At the end of the meeting he said, after all the conclusions

10    were drawn and when it became clear that the Muslims wanted to leave the

11    region, he told us then that you, in the authorities there, should try to

12    help the population up in Potocari.  You have filled in all your water

13    cisterns and the bakeries should be working, and after that we withdrew to

14    my office, the three of us, and we made a plan how to continue to operate

15    in this matter.

16            We engaged two of our water cisterns, and a cistern of the

17    utilities company, as well as the fire station cistern.  Our local bakery

18    was instructed in future to work in full capacity, and to send all of

19    their produce to the Potocari area.  We saw that this was not enough, so

20    then LJS went to the neighbouring municipality across the Drina River, and

21    he asked the authorities there to help us out, which is what they did.

22    They also sent their water cisterns and a certain quantity of bread and

23    juices, mineral water.

24            We did the same with the neighbouring municipality of Zvornik.  So

25    they also helped us out there.  So these were our capacities that we were

Page 9208

 1    able to offer to the people up there.  It was probably insufficient, but

 2    we didn't have more than that.  What we had, we tried to provide.

 3       Q.   Did you actually go to Potocari at some point on the 12th?

 4       A.   Yes, with the first cisterns and the first quantities of bread,

 5    LJS and I went too.

 6       Q.   Okay.  And did you distribute some of the supplies that you

 7    indicated that you had organised?

 8       A.   Yes, other than the people who were entrusted with the cisterns,

 9    there were people from civilian protection, the two of us also

10    participated in handing out bread, milk; there was certain quantities of

11    that.  We also tried to help out, literally.

12       Q.   Now, during the course of the meeting itself that happened at

13    10.00 that day, that began at 10.00 that day, did General Mladic make any

14    indication as to whether or not the people in Potocari would be screened

15    to see if there were any war criminals among them?

16       A.   I didn't know what the purpose of the meeting was when I was

17    informed to attend.  At the meeting itself, I understood what the

18    objective of the meeting was.  I understood that the meeting was preceded

19    by another meeting with -- can I give the names of the Muslims?

20       Q.   I think you can, yes.

21       A.   At the meeting, I understood that the General had another meeting

22    with Nesib Mandzic, who at the time was the president of the Srebrenica

23    municipality, and the meeting at 10.00 was attended by the Muslim

24    delegation, actually, a larger Muslim delegation, a three-member Muslim

25    delegation.  And I concluded that when the General asked, he addressed the

Page 9209

 1    president, President Mandzic, "What have you decided?"

 2            To which they replied that they had decided that the people wanted

 3    to leave the region.  The General warned them, "Don't take such a

 4    decision.  If you wish to stay in this region, in your homes, you can do

 5    that freely, with full guarantees for your rights and freedoms, freedom of

 6    work, freedom of movement.  And the condition, if you do decide about

 7    that, the army must hand over its weapons and those who bloodied their

 8    hands and who committed crimes against the Serbian people would be

 9    prosecuted.  Those who were innocent would have all the guarantees of

10    work, life and movement and they can stay."

11            They were quite decided.  "General, thank you very much, but we

12    have decided that we do want to leave this area."

13       Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.  Now, approximately how long were you

14    in Potocari?

15       A.   Perhaps two hours.

16       Q.   And can you tell us what you did after you left?

17       A.   I already said that I actually physically helped to distribute the

18    bread, the food.  And walking around in a kind of narrow circle, some

19    people recognised me.  Amongst other people, I was recognised by a man who

20    actually built my house just before the war.  His name is Nijazija Jahic.

21    I saw him from about 10 metres off, and he was calling out to me, but I

22    didn't recognise him at the time.  And then he came up to me and only when

23    he came up to me I recognised him.  I said, "Nijazija, is that you?"  He

24    said, "Yes."

25            He asked me if I was able to help him in any way, for him and his

Page 9210

 1    wife, if I could get him and his wife into the transport earlier, because

 2    the transport had already started.  I said, "Yes, I can do that.  Where is

 3    your wife?"  He said, "She's there."  I said, "Bring her over," and he

 4    brought her over and then the buses were about 200 metres away from where

 5    we were, and I took him there and I took them into the bus.

 6            And that man, about three years ago, he is now living in Central

 7    Bosnia, in Breza or Vares and he sent his greetings via a Serb who is

 8    living in Bratunac now.  He told him to tell me hello and to thank me for

 9    helping him.

10            There was another case when I was recognised by a person by the

11    name of Hamid; he is from the village of Glogova.  Before the war, he

12    worked as a messenger in the municipal assembly office.  He also asked for

13    my help, to help him to move his uncle, who was in a wheelchair, to also

14    take him into the bus out of turn.  Do I need to describe that?

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Before Mr. Vanderpuye tells you whether you need to

16    describe it or not, you have mentioned a lot of names here and a lot of

17    details which, undoubtedly, could reveal your identity, at least to these

18    persons that you mentioned.  I'm leaving it in your hands to tell me

19    whether you would like this part to be redacted or whether we proceed.

20    It's up to you.  But obviously whoever has heard this will identify you.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it is not necessary.  I

22    am not afraid of anything.  I don't think that there is any need for that.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

24            MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  I think we can proceed.

25       Q.   And the answer to your question is, no, you don't need to explain

Page 9211

 1    that.

 2            I think before your answer I'd asked you where -- where you went

 3    after you left, and could you tell us, after you left Potocari, where you

 4    went?

 5       A.   I returned to Bratunac.  I don't know if I went to my office or if

 6    I went home to refresh myself.  It was a very, very hot day, so I'm not

 7    sure about that.  But I am sure that in the afternoon I was back in my

 8    office again, and I spent time in my office in the municipal building.  I

 9    was there until night.  There was another person with me at the office,

10    MD.

11       Q.   All right.

12            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Can we go into private session just to get this

13    person's name.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's go into private session, please.

15            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

16            MR. VANDERPUYE:

17       Q.   Okay.  You previously -- I'm sorry.  Are we in?

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

19            MR. VANDERPUYE:

20       Q.   You previously referred to an individual by the name of MD and now

21    you're referring to MD again.  Are you referring to the same individual or

22    is this a different individual?

23       A.   It's not the same individual.  Are we in private session?

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The other person was Miroslav

Page 9212

 1    Deronjic and this person is Dragan Mirkovic, who was sitting at the office

 2    with me at that time.

 3            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.

 4       Q.   I just wanted to clarify that.

 5       A.   He was the director of the Bratunac utility company.

 6       Q.   All right.

 7            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we can go into open session, Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's do that.

 9                          [Open session]

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

11            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

12       Q.   Now, you indicated that -- well, did this person come to your

13    office?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And can you tell us approximately what time?

16       A.   It was already evening.  It could have been after 8.00 p.m.

17       Q.   And did anything occur during the period of time that he was in

18    your office?

19       A.   We were sitting in the office.  I don't know if we had anything we

20    had to do, but anyway, at the time, we did spend a lot of time at the

21    office.  Usually the directors would come and meet at my office, so he

22    probably just happened to come by.  And we were sitting and talking and

23    then we heard a window was opened, the window to the office, and it looks

24    out to the street and we could hear the sound of some vehicles outside.

25    We looked out of the window and we could see three buses parked on the

Page 9213

 1    street right beneath the window.  It was strange, what the buses were

 2    doing there.  We were wondering.

 3            Then we stood up and came downstairs; the office is on the first

 4    floor.  We came down and at the exit to the municipal building there was a

 5    bus parked.  We could see it was full of people.  Men.

 6            The front door of the bus was open, and a policeman was standing

 7    in front of the door.  Judging by his uniform, he was a civilian

 8    policeman, not a military policeman.  He was wearing a blue uniform, but I

 9    didn't know the man.  We had a conversation with him, we asked who these

10    people were.  He said Muslims.  Where are they going, what are they doing

11    here?  They are -- and then at one point I noticed that in the middle of

12    the bus a person was knocking on the window, tapping on the window.  And

13    the lights in the bus, inside the bus were dimmed.  I approached closer

14    and I recognised the person.  His name was Omo Jahic and he was from the

15    village of Bijeceva.  Before the war he worked at the Sasa mine.  He was

16    also a councilman in the municipal assembly, so we knew each other very

17    well.  And he asked me to come into the bus.

18            I went back to the policeman, because this was in the middle of

19    the bus, and the policeman was standing at the entrance to the bus.  I

20    said, "That man would like to tell me something.  Can I go into the bus?"

21    He said, "Go ahead."  I climbed the first step, the one close to the

22   driver, and I said, "Omo, what's the matter?" *And  he said, "Buco, can you

23    please give me some water, bro?"  And since the policeman was right there

24    and the door was open, I said this man wants me to give him some water,

25    can I do that?  He said, "Yes, go ahead."

Page 9214

 1       Q.   Let me stop you for one second.  I --

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's redact line 25 on page 22.

 3            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  The penultimate -- line 25 on page 22, yeah.  The

 5    penultimate word, please.

 6            MR. VANDERPUYE:

 7       Q.   I'm just going to ask you to try to be mindful of what you say.

 8            Let me just ask you, because earlier you had indicated that you

 9    had asked policemen about these Muslims that were in the buses, and I

10    think you asked the policeman, or you indicated that -- why they were

11    there and where they were going, and I was just wondering if you could

12    tell us if you received an answer to those questions and what he told you.

13       A.   The answer that I got from the policeman was rather ambiguous.  As

14    far as I can remember, he told me that these people would be taken to

15    Batkovic, Bijeljina, to a collection centre, that's what he called it.

16    And from there he would be taken to be exchanged for the Serbian soldiers

17    who were in Tuzla, as well as the Serbian civilian population in Tuzla.

18    This was more or less the answer that the policeman gave me.  But I

19    realised that he himself was not very sure of what he was saying when he

20    said that they would be taken to Batkovic and onwards to be exchanged.

21       Q.   And can you tell us, during the course of that evening,

22    approximately how many buses you became aware of had come in to Bratunac?

23       A.   MD and I saw two buses and we brought about 50 cans of water to

24    those two buses.  Everybody on those two buses had small, five-litre cans,

25    and we also saw in the other street, on the other side of the municipal

Page 9215

 1    building, there were three more buses parked.  In other words, there were

 2    three buses on one side and three buses in front of the municipality

 3    building; six buses in total.

 4            There were also buses in the playground.  I didn't go there, but

 5    according to some stories, there must have been anything between 20 and 25

 6    buses, or 20, approximately.

 7       *Q.  Now, did the number of buses and the Muslims on those buses create

 8    a situation of concern for -- for you as the -- as the president of the

 9    Executive Board of the municipality of Bratunac?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Now you have cooked --

11            MR. VANDERPUYE:  That was very nicely done.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah.

13            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I apologise for that.  Maybe we can redact that.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Registrar.

15            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

17            MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Let's see if we can get it right this

18    time.

19       Q.   Did that create a situation of concern in the area?

20       A.   Well, rumours reached me that in the buses that were in the

21    playground something strange was going on.  That the Muslims in those

22    buses were shouting to each other, and there was a fear that they might

23    get off the buses.  Since there were very few guards providing security

24    for those buses, I'm concluding that there were very few guards because

25    there was just one policeman for the three buses in front of the municipal

Page 9216

 1    building.  That's why there was a fear that the Muslims would leave the

 2    buses and start walking around the town, which was empty.  In the town

 3    there was no troops, there were no males.  There were mostly women,

 4    children and the elderly.  As for the able-bodied men, they were either in

 5    the army or hiding in the forest.

 6            The retired persons were sent to the playground in order to create

 7    an impression that there were more guards than there actually were.  And

 8    the drivers were ordered to start the engines, to keep the engines

 9    running, in order to prevent people in the buses from communicating to

10    each other.

11            These buses spent the night in Bratunac, and in the course of the

12    night, before the morning, they left Bratunac.  I don't know where they

13    went.

14       Q.   Now, did you become aware at some point, during that evening or

15    the following morning, as to what -- as to whether or not some of these

16    individuals were being brought to a school located near the municipal

17    building?

18       A.   When I realised that there were many buses in Bratunac, I came

19    across MD in town, but not the person who shared the office with me, but

20    the first one.  I don't know whether you are all clear as to who I'm

21    referring to.  And I told him, "Man, what is this?  What is going on?

22    Where did the buses come from?"

23            He responded, "RD from M has done this to us."

24       Q.   Okay.  Maybe we can go into private session and we can...

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's do that.  Let's go into private session,

Page 9217

 1    please.

 2            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 3            MR. VANDERPUYE:

 4       Q.   Maybe you can explain that to us, just so that it's clear for the

 5    record.  You can use their names.

 6       A.   This is what he literally said.  "Rajko Dzukic from Milici is

 7    framing us up."  And then he left.  Then I told him, "Miroslav, use your

 8    connections, talk to somebody from the top leadership."  Because he did

 9    have some connections with the political and the state leadership, which I

10    didn't have.  So I asked him to inquire into the matter, and prevent all

11    that.  I thought that we didn't need all this, and this is how it ended

12    between the two of us.  He promised that he would see to the matter.

13       Q.   Okay.  You had indicated an MD is the person that you were

14    speaking to, right -- is that right?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Just so the record is clear, could you just tell us his name now

17    that we're in private session?

18       A.   Miroslav Deronjic.

19            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we can go to open session again.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's go back to open session.

21                          [Open session]

22            MR. VANDERPUYE:

23       Q.   I think I had asked you --

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

25            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 9218

 1       Q.   I think I had asked you whether or not you had become aware of the

 2    use of the school with regard to some of these individuals that were on

 3    the buses.  Did that occur at any point?

 4       A.   I don't know whether this happened on that evening, but on the

 5    following day I learned that, early in the morning, people had been

 6    detained in the school.

 7       Q.   All right.  Now, you had some certain information that there

 8    were -- I think you said that there were some buses near the playground.

 9    Now, do you know whether or not there were people outside the buses, that

10    is Muslims, outside the buses on the playground, or were they all on the

11    buses, if you have that information?

12       A.   They were all on the buses.  According to my information, nobody

13    was outside.  Possibly, if somebody lost their way, Potocari is only five

14    kilometres away, and there 20.000 people there.  We learnt later on that

15    some people went astray from Potocari and strayed into Bratunac and then

16    they were brought to the school.

17            I did not see the school as a prison, I saw it as a collection

18    centre at the time, because the school had been destroyed in 1992, all the

19    glass panes were shattered.  It did have walls and a roof, but as any

20    other school, this also had a lot of windows, a lot of glass panes which

21    were all shattered in 1992, and from then on it was never used by

22    children.  There was another school nearby that was used by children as a

23    school.

24       Q.   All right.  If I could, I'd like to just move forward and we'll go

25    into the 13th of July.  I will direct your attention to that day.  Now,

Page 9219

 1    did you, at some point during that day, go to see -- I think DT is who

 2    you've referred to this individual as before.

 3       A.   Yes, sometime in the morning I went to see DT.

 4       Q.   And did he provide you with any information with respect to a

 5    former head of the police station in Bratunac?

 6       A.   DT was an associate of mine.  We worked very well together.  He

 7    was also a personal friend, and we went to school together.  That's why we

 8    socialised quite a lot.

 9            That morning I went to see him, to have a cup of coffee with him

10    and to have a chat.  I wanted to be informed about war operations and so

11    on.  When I arrived there he told me, "Do you know who has been detained?"

12    I said, "Who?"  And I can tell you his name, if I may.  That person who --

13    who had been detained.  Resic Imanovic [as interpreted] is his name.

14    Resic Imanovic is a person who between 1980 and 1984 was the chief of the

15    Bratunac police.  And during the same period of time I was his deputy,

16    which means that we worked together in the police station.

17            In addition to the two of us having worked together, that person

18    was also a very good friend of mine.  We were really close, our families

19    were close.  We were really good pals.  We spent all of our free time

20    together, either sitting in a cafe or fishing together.  We were really

21    close.

22            I expressed a wish to see Resid, so he told me he is down there,

23    by ZC.

24       Q.   Okay.  Let me just stop you right there for a second.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Before you move further.  He has -- you asked him

Page 9220

 1    questions, and he answered them in relation to the school.  And to my

 2    knowledge the only indication that he gave as to which school he was

 3    referring to is when, on page 25, line 20, he said, "To a school located

 4    near the municipal building."  Later on he has mentioned another school

 5    without mentioning the name, of course.  So I think we need to clarify

 6    this, if either or both of these schools had a name, perhaps he can give

 7    us the name of the schools and that would make his testimony clearer.

 8            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 9       Q.   You understand --

10            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honour, maybe -- I apologise --

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, Mr. Lazarevic.

12            MR. LAZAREVIC:  -- for interrupting but maybe we need to redact

13    something.  If I can draw your attention at page -- one second.

14            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think you're referring to page 28, line 20.

15            MR. LAZAREVIC:  28, yes.  Yes.  20 to 24.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  I know of course as he was saying it, I have been

17    thinking all along, actually, I think his entire testimony could fall

18    under that category.  But in referring, or when referring to this

19    gentleman, Resid, you said -- you gave some information about how close

20    you were to him, which could identify you.  So --

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  -- do you wish us to redact that or not?  Because at

23    the end of the day, the conclusion I'm coming to is the only purpose of

24    the protective measures that we have put in place is to the effect that

25    whoever will eventually identify him in any case is precluding --

Page 9221

 1    precluded from revealing his identity.  That's the only purpose.  But I

 2    don't think that we are moving in the direction of hiding his identity.  I

 3    think we've had too much information in public session, in open session,

 4    that would reveal his identity to many.

 5            Do you wish us to redact that part or not?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  This is a well-known fact.

 7    Everybody knows that I met up with him.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Go ahead.  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic, in

 9    any case, for pointing that out.

10            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.

11       Q.   First I think -- first I'd like to see if we can address the

12    Court's concern with respect to the name of the school.  And you had

13    referred to the school, or having learned that certain people were brought

14    to a school, and I am wondering if you could give the name of the school

15    as it was during that time.

16       A.   In order to avoid any confusion, the school that is in the

17    vicinity of the municipal building, before the war, it's name was Vuk

18    Karadzic.  During the war, however, its name was changed and it was given

19    the name of Branko Radicevic.  Whereas the Vuk Karadzic name was given to

20    the school whose name was Hasan Midhat before the war.

21            In other words, the school next to the municipal building that the

22    detainees were brought to was called Branko Radicevic at the time.  Am I

23    making myself clear?

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Very much so.  Thank you.

25            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Can we just go to private session for a moment?

Page 9222

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Of course.  Let's go into private session for a

 2    short while.

 3            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we are in private session.

 5            MR. VANDERPUYE:

 6       Q.   You had referred to somebody I think earlier in your testimony

 7    with the initials of ZC.  And I wondered if you could just give us that

 8    person's name.

 9       A.   Zlatan Celanovic.  So not C, but C-h.  He worked in the military

10    police as an investigator.  He was not a commander, he was an

11    investigator.  He had a law degree.  He investigated, he interviewed

12    people.

13       Q.   Now, at some point, did you actually have an opportunity to meet

14    and to talk to Celanovic?

15       A.   I called Dragan Trsic, DT, that is, asking if he would want to see

16    him as well.  He said no, but I wanted to see him.  We had been pals, we

17    had worked together.  So he said, why don't you call ZC, you have a

18    telephone there, and ask him.  I dialed his number and I asked ZC, I

19    understand that Resid is in custody.  And he says, yes.  Can I see him?

20    Yes.  When?  You can see him immediately.  So I said, Okay, I'm coming

21    over there.

22            The military police building is only 30 or four [as interpreted]

23    metres away from the place where I was with DT.  It's very close to the

24    command.  So I got to ZC's office very quickly; he was there alone.  And

25    then he went out and a minute or two later he brought Resid into his

Page 9223

 1    office.

 2       Q.   All right.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session.  Any time you wish to go

 4    back to open session, please let us know.

 5            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we can go back into open session, but I

 6    just wanted to clarify for the record, I may have eaten my words, but with

 7    respect to page 31, at line 19, the name that I thought I said was

 8    Sinanovic, not Celanovic.  That's what's reflected in the record.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  The transcript needs to be corrected, yeah.

10            MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Sinanovic, S-i.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, that's what I heard you say.

12            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Shall we go into open session, or shall we remain in

14    private session?

15            MR. VANDERPUYE:  We can go to open session, I believe.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's go to open session again.

17                          [Open session]

18            JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

19            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20       Q.   Did you have an opportunity to speak to Resid?

21       A.   Yes.  As Resid entered the office, I could tell by the expression

22    on his face that Zlatan hadn't told him that he would meet up with me, so

23    I was taken by surprise when he saw me in that office.  I stood up, came

24    up to him, we shook hands.  We greeted each other.  For some 10 seconds or

25    so, he held my hand and then we even kissed each other.  We sat down at a

Page 9224

 1    coffee table that was in the office.  Zlatan had left the office.  He left

 2    us alone for an hour or even longer.  We spent that time talking.

 3       Q.   And did you receive any information as to what would be done with

 4    him?

 5       A.   As much as I was glad to see him, I was still embarrassed, because

 6    I couldn't help him.  I didn't have the power to take him out and tell

 7    him, "You can go, you're free."  And I wanted him to be aware of that.  I

 8    told him, "Resid, whatever is being done, this is a purely military

 9    operation.  I work in the municipality."  And he said, "I know.  I know

10    all.  I heard it on the radio."  They could listen to the radio up there

11    in Srebrenica.  "I heard it on the radio when you had been appointed and I

12    would like to thank you as a human being, as a person, for having come to

13    see me."

14            I asked him, "Resid, did somebody ill-treat you?  Are you hungry?"

15    And he said, "No, nobody did, and I'm not hungry."  And then we continued

16    chatting, talking about things, maybe for an hour or so.

17            But I wanted to encourage him; this was my intention.  And I told

18    him, "Don't fret.  You will be exchanged."  Because this is what I had

19    been told by DT and that's what all of us had believed.  I told

20    Resid, "You will be exchanged.  I don't expect any problems with that."

21            I tried to help Resid in 1992.  I remember the date very well.

22    Because this had all happened on the 6th of May, on the eve of St.

23    George's Day, which is my name day.  That's why I remember the date very

24    well.  On the 5th of May, on the eve that holiday, sometime in the

25    afternoon, Resid called me on the phone at my place and asked me to come

Page 9225

 1    and fetch him in his apartment, which I did.

 2            In the apartment I found him, his wife, and their two sons.  We

 3    greeted each other of course, and then he told me right away, "You know

 4    why I called you?  I called you because something smells really odd in

 5    Bratunac.  I would like to go to Skopje, to my brother's."  His brother

 6    Iza was a captain in the JNA.  "I want to go there while things are the

 7    way they are and then I'll come back when things settle down.  I was going

 8    to ask you, maybe you could apply for my pass to leave Bratunac."  Since

 9    my neighbour, my first-door neighbour was in charge of that, I told

10    Resid, "I believe I can help you."  Although at the time, I was not a

11    member of the SDS.  I was a member of the SDP, the former communist party,

12    the league of communists.

13            So I was not of the same political mind as MD, but we were

14    neighbours, we were close.  That's why I went to see MD.  I couldn't find

15    him right away.  I found him only around 9.00 in the evening at a meeting,

16    and --

17       Q.   Let me just ask you, is this part of the discussion that you had

18    with him on the 13th of July, 1995?

19       A.   Yes.  I asked Resid, "When I provided you with that pass, why

20    didn't you leave?  Why didn't you go to Skopje?"  Because if he had gone

21    to Skopje, he would not have been in Srebrenica.  And he said, "I made a

22    mistake.  I should have left on the 6th."  Because on the 6th, in the

23    morning, I gave him the passes.  But he didn't leave on the 6th, he left

24    on the 7th.  He had a very small car at the time.  He had a small Fiat.

25    And Skopje is far away, so he thought that he would first go to Bjelevac,

Page 9226

 1    some five kilometres from Bratunac and then on the 7th he was going to

 2    leave to Skopje to have a whole day ahead of him.

 3            However, on the bridge of the Drina, he crossed to Serbia, and

 4    came to Ljubovija, which is some three kilometres away from the bridge on

 5    the Drina.  And up there, by the motel, the Serbian police from Ljubovija

 6    stopped him and ordered him to go back to Bratunac.

 7       Q.   All right.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we need to --

 9            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think that's a good time for the break.  Thank

10    you, Mr. President.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  We will have a 25-minute break starting from now.

12    Thank you.

13                          --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

14                          --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

16            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17       Q.   Witness, after you left ZC, C-h, did you return to Bratunac?

18       A.   Yes, after seeing him, yes.  I briefly went back to DT, we

19    exchanged a few sentences, and then in 10 or 15 minutes, I returned to my

20    office.

21       Q.   Now, after you went back to Bratunac, did you at any point after

22    that, go to any school in relation to Resid Sinanovic?

23       A.   Yes, I asked ZCh how long Resid would stay there.  He said, "In

24    the afternoon I will have to transfer him to the elementary school, Branko

25    Radicevic."  He said that our police was over there, that's what he said.

Page 9227

 1    And I'm going to tell the policemen to take special care of Resid, so that

 2    nobody mistreats him.

 3            And, having heard that our police were securing the school over

 4    there, I also passed down that street near the school, because it's the

 5    same way, either to take that road or the main road to the municipal

 6    building, and in front I saw a policeman, in front of the school, whom I

 7    knew.  And I told him, if they bring Resid there, that he should take care

 8    of him a bit, if he should need water and so on, so that nobody mistreats

 9    him.  That was the only time that I went to the school or passed by the

10    school.  But the school actually is about 100 metres from the municipal

11    building.

12       Q.   And, if you could, could you just describe that school and any

13    adjacent buildings?

14       A.   It's a three-storey building, the school building.  I used to be a

15    teacher myself, and I know that the school has 16 classrooms; it's a large

16    school.  And it also has a gym.  Near the school, as I said, is the

17    municipal building, some 50 to 75 metres away.  There is also the old

18    secondary school centre.  It's an old building, the old building of the

19    construction school.  There was also a hangar there that was dilapidated

20    and that was used as a workshop by the secondary school centre before the

21    war.  On the other side are private houses, close to the school.  This is

22    a brief description of the school.

23       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, I want to draw your attention to the 14th

24    of July, 1995, if I could.  Now, were you working on that day?

25       A.   Yes.  From 7.00 onwards, perhaps a few minutes before, but

Page 9228

 1    actually the work hours were from 7.00 a.m., that's when I would usually

 2    get to work.  So on the 14th, I came to my office at that time.

 3       Q.   And while you were at your office, did anybody visit you?

 4       A.   Yes, perhaps it was at 7.00 or a few minutes after 7.00, two

 5    people came to my office.

 6            MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just go into private session for a

 7    moment, Mr. President.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's go into private session, please.

 9            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session.

11            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

12       Q.   Can you just tell us the names of the -- or the name of the people

13    or person who came to visit you?

14       A.   One of them was Jovan Nikolic, and the other one was Dragan

15    Nikolic.  Jovan Nikolic was a director of the cooperative, and Dragan

16    Nikolic was also a director of the cooperative.  How can I explain that

17    organisation?  In the Bratunac municipal region, there were several

18    cooperatives and they were joined, or associated in an organisation which

19    was called the complex cooperative organisation.  The cooperative in

20    Kravica was part of this complex cooperative.

21            I cannot be sure, but at that time there was a kind of break-up,

22    and this association fell apart, so I cannot really be sure whether it was

23    Jole or Dragan Nikolic who was the director of the Bratunac cooperative.

24    It was on the cusp of Dragan Nikolic going -- outgoing as director and

25    Jovan Nikolic being appointed.  So we were just talking about what had

Page 9229

 1    happened the previous afternoon, what happened in the afternoon in the

 2    cooperative in Kravica.

 3       Q.   Okay.

 4            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we can go to open session.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's revert to open session, please.

 6                          [Open session]

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

 8            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9       Q.   You've indicated that you had a discussion with these individuals

10    that came to see you about Kravica.  Can you tell us what it is that they

11    told you?

12       A.   They told me that the day before, in the afternoon, there were

13    killings of Muslims in the cooperative.  Until then I hadn't heard of

14    that.  The first I heard of it was from them and it surprised me very

15    much; I was flabbergasted.  I couldn't believe it.  I couldn't believe

16    that something like that had happened.  Especially because I had been

17    present at the meeting at the Fontana, where it was agreed that there

18    would be an evacuation, that it would all be done properly.  And then

19    suddenly there is this.

20            It had a devastating effect on me.  I was shocked.  I couldn't

21    believe it.  Unfortunately, it was true, and it did happen.

22       Q.   At some point after your conversation with these individuals, did

23    you get a call to go to the SDS offices?

24       A.   My conversation with those two was just a conversation and getting

25    information.  I don't know why they came to tell me that.  I assume that

Page 9230

 1    it was because they knew -- well, they came to see me frequently, and they

 2    probably felt the need to tell someone, to discuss it with someone.  So

 3    perhaps, after two hours after the conversation with them they told me

 4    about it, they stayed with me for an hour or so, I can't be quite certain

 5    about that.

 6            But then sometime after that, at 9.30 or thereabouts, the

 7    secretary of the Serbian Democratic Party called me.  She asked me if she

 8    could come to the office.  She asked me if I could go to the office

 9    because there was a man waiting there to see me.  I said I would go there,

10    and that's what I did.

11       Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us what happened when you went to the office?

12    First, did you meet this man?

13       A.   Yes, I did.  I went to the office.  When I entered the office I

14    saw the secretary there, and also a male.  The secretary was sitting at

15    her desk, and the person was sitting at the coffee table.  When I entered,

16    the person addressed me.  They shook my hand.  I didn't know that person

17    before, it was the first time that I saw him.  He introduced himself.  And

18    he offered me a seat.

19       Q.   What did he tell you his name was?

20       A.   His name was Beara.  As soon as I saw "Colonel Beara" on the

21    uniform.  So I was there with him for 10 minutes at the most.  It was an

22    informal conversation:  "How are you, what's going on?  How is it in

23    Bratunac?  How are you dealing with all the work?"  And so on.  So, as I

24    said, it was an informal conversation, from what I can recall of it.

25            The SDS offices actually had two rooms, there were two offices.

Page 9231

 1    The first one is the office where the secretary was sitting and where the

 2    Colonel was and then there is an entrance to the other office.  It's like

 3    a leather-covered, padded door.  And that's where the office was where the

 4    president sat.  And the Colonel told me, "Will you come to the other

 5    office?  There are some people there who would like to talk to you."

 6            He didn't tell me who these people were or what they wanted to

 7    talk about with me.  I stood up, I opened the door, I entered that office,

 8    and there I saw two officers whom I didn't know.  In uniforms.  I think

 9    that one of them was a colonel and the other one was a lieutenant-colonel.

10       Q.   Can you tell us whether or not -- whether or not these individuals

11    were members of the brigade, Bratunac Brigade?

12       A.   No, they were not.  They were not definitely members, because I

13    knew all of the members of the Bratunac Brigade, and these people I was

14    seeing for the first time.  If I saw them now, I wouldn't recognise them.

15    Because I had never seen them before, they didn't introduce themselves,

16    they didn't tell me their names.  And they were not from the Bratunac

17    Brigade.  That, I'm 100 per cent sure.  Because I knew people from the

18    brigade.

19       Q.   Did you ever ask the Colonel about who these people were, or might

20    have been?

21       A.   Colonel Beara?

22       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

23       A.   I never met the Colonel again.  Not when I was leaving.  I didn't

24    ask him who these people were.  After finishing the conversation with

25    those people, I left the SDS, I said good-bye to the Colonel, I didn't

Page 9232

 1    comment anything with him, we didn't really talk about what happened

 2    inside with these other men.

 3       Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us what transpired, what the conversation

 4    was  -- you had with these other men?

 5       A.   The people very quickly moved to the question of why they had

 6    called me over to see them.  They asked me, "What do your -- the companies

 7    in your municipality have of construction equipment, machinery?"  I said

 8    that our brickworks had a construction machine called a ULT, and the

 9    utilities company had a smaller machine called a SKIP.

10       Q.   Could you just describe what those machines are, so we're clear on

11    the record what you're talking about?

12       A.   The ULT machine is a construction machine.  I'm not an expert in

13    construction, but I can describe it as well as I can.  It has a large

14    bucket, it's a large machine.  And I think it's used for loading.  I don't

15    think, I know it's used for loading.  And it has a large bucket.  Perhaps

16    the size of that desk or maybe a bit smaller.

17            The SKIP machine is owned by the utilities company and it is used

18    for digging.  It is a very small piece of machinery.

19       Q.   And did you do anything in relation to -- to getting these

20    machines or providing these people with access to those machines?

21       A.   They asked if we would be able to place the ULT machine at their

22    disposal, and I said that I think so, yes, and that I would call the

23    director of the brickworks, whose name was NN.

24       Q.   Okay.

25            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  If we could just go into private session

Page 9233

 1    for a moment.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session

 3            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 4            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.

 5       Q.   Could you just tell us the name of the person?

 6       A.   Nedzo Nikolic, the director of the brickworks.

 7       Q.   While we're in private session, did you call anybody else?

 8       A.   No, I didn't.  I just called him.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Now, during the time that you were in this meeting with

10    these two other individuals, a colonel and lieutenant-colonel, was -- was

11    Colonel Beara in the room with you?

12       A.   No.  Colonel -- the Colonel stayed --

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Do we remain in private session?

14            MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, I'm sorry, we can go to open session.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's revert to open session.  Thank you.

16                          [Open session]

17            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you repeat your question, please.

19            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, I will.

20       Q.   During the time you were in the meeting with these two other

21    individuals, the colonel and lieutenant-colonel, was Colonel Beara in the

22    room with you?

23       A.   No, Colonel Beara stayed in the first office where the secretary

24    was sitting.  Actually, that was where I found him when I came in.  He

25    didn't come into this other office where I was with the other men.

Page 9234

 1       Q.   And did you at any point discuss the subject matter of that

 2    meeting with Colonel Beara?

 3       A.   No.  The Colonel did not tell me, when I came, why I had been

 4    summoned over.  And when I came out, he didn't ask me, "Did you make any

 5    kind of agreement?  What did you agree on?"  As they would say, we didn't

 6    discuss work, if I can put it that way.  We didn't discuss the reasons why

 7    I had been summoned to come over.

 8            Perhaps it's interesting also to say this:  When those people told

 9    me about the machinery, that they needed it, I had an idea why they would

10    need the machine.  And the previous meeting I had with these two, JN and

11    ND, kind of clued me in about why they would need the machinery, that

12    that's why they would need the machinery, for that sort of thing.

13            Remembering 1992 and the person who operated the machine, that

14    person is my --

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

16                          [Trial Chamber confers]

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Go ahead.  Sorry for the interruption,

18    but we needed to discuss something before the witness finished answering

19    the question.

20            So you were saying, Witness, that perhaps it's interesting also to

21    note this, when those people told me about the machinery, that they needed

22    it, I had an idea why they would need the machine.  And the previous

23    meeting I had with these two, JN and ND, kind of clued me -- gave me a

24    clue about why they would need the machinery.  And that's why they would

25    need the machinery, for that sort of thing.  And you were going to explain

Page 9235

 1    when I interrupted you.  If you could continue from there, please.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that we misunderstood each

 3    other.  In that context, these two others that I first met have nothing to

 4    do with these other two, but when they informed me about what had

 5    happened, I myself formed a kind of assumption about why they would be

 6    needing this machine.  So I hope that's clear.

 7            I started to talk about the man who was operating the machinery.

 8    I knew him.  And I know that in 1992 he had an unpleasant experience while

 9    operating the machinery, doing the kind of work that I had an idea that

10    the machine was needed for.  So I told the people, "You will get the

11    machine for sure, but the person who operates the machine is not for that

12    sort of thing."  And then one of the two men actually told me very

13    sharply, "It's not up to you to say who can work on the machine and who

14    cannot."  And I said, "I'm sorry, it was just a remark and it doesn't

15    oblige you to anything."  And then I withdrew from the office with the

16    promise that the machine would be placed at their disposal.

17            MR. VANDERPUYE:

18       Q.   Now, did you discuss with either of these men, in this meeting,

19    your concern, or your idea, as to what use those machines would be put?

20       A.   Which people?  The people at 7.00 in the morning or these

21    officers, army officers?  I don't know who you mean.  I don't know which

22    ones you mean.

23       Q.   I mean the officers, the later -- the later of the two meetings.

24       A.   The officers didn't tell me why they would be needing the machine.

25    It was my assumption that they would possibly need it for that, or perhaps

Page 9236

 1    for some kind of combat action, digging trenches or something.  But having

 2    heard about what had happened in Kravica, I thought to myself that perhaps

 3    that's why it would be needed.  But they didn't tell me what the machine

 4    would be used for, that machine.  I wasn't told what it would be used for.

 5    That was my assumption.  And it was my attempt to protect the man who kept

 6    fainting in 1992, when he was doing this kind of hard work with that

 7    machine.  But I said don't take that for anything, it was just an

 8    assumption, it doesn't commit anyone to anything.

 9       Q.   Now, the manner in which these men approached you with respect to

10    acquiring that equipment, was that the common way of proceeding normally

11    between civilian and military relations?

12       A.   Well, it's like this:  In the Blagojevic case, there was debate

13    about that; how you can get a machine.  There were three ways to get the

14    equipment.  First, you can get it through the secretariat for national

15    defence to requisition the machine.  The command of the Bratunac Brigade

16    could address -- could directly address the Executive Board, but the

17    command could also address the director directly.

18            In this case, they, the people whom I didn't know, these officers,

19    asked me, *as the president of the Executive Board.  There was no written

20    request, just an oral request, and I've already told you where that was

21    and how the usual way to do it, since the Bratunac Brigade communicated,

22    or DT, the logistics deputy, was the one who would do these kinds of

23    things directly with us.  I mean, he was authorised to do that by the

24    commander, but this time, this is how it happened.

25            Perhaps it's a little bit out of the ordinary.  Perhaps this was

Page 9237

 1    the most unusual way to do it.  Everything else would be more regular,

 2    either to go through the secretariat or through the Bratunac Brigade, but

 3    this time it didn't go like that, it went like this.

 4       Q.   Did that strike you as unusual?  Had you been put in a position

 5    like this before?

 6       A.   Well, you know, I understood it was war, and some things probably

 7    do not proceed according to the rules or the law.  I mean, perhaps there

 8    is no time for certain things.  Some things, well, also were done in a

 9    roundabout way, perhaps not according to procedure and so on.

10            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  If we could go into private session for

11    just a second.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session, please.

13            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session.

15            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

16       Q.   You had mentioned that you were concerned about the operator of

17    this ULT equipment.  And you said that you knew him, and I would like for

18    you to just put his name on the record so that we know who you're talking

19    about.

20       A.   Jurkovic [as interpreted], I cannot remember his first name.  I

21    know the person.  Durkovic.  He was here, he testified in the Blagojevic

22    case.

23       Q.   All right.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  It's not all right as yet.  All right.  Okay.  We

25    are in private session, but one needs to be careful because I don't know

Page 9238

 1    whether that person was a protected witness in the Blagojevic case or not.

 2            So at the moment, now we switch back to open session.  The witness

 3    needs to be careful.

 4            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Can we go back to open

 5    session?

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Of course.  Let's go back to open session, please.

 7                          [Open session]

 8            MR. VANDERPUYE:

 9       Q.   You indicated that this individual you were concerned about

10    because he kept fainting in relation to an operation in 1992.  Could you

11    just tell us what it was that he was doing?

12       A.   Perhaps I was exaggerating a little bit saying that I was

13    concerned or worried.  It wasn't that I was overly concerned; I just

14    wanted to spare the man of that.  He was digging graves for the burial of

15    Muslims who were killed in 1992.

16       Q.   Is that the idea that you had that the equipment would have been

17    used for in 1995?

18       A.   Well, I've already said that.  This is what I thought, as I heard

19    this from MJ and ND at 7.00.  This was my assumption.  I kept thinking to

20    myself that the machine might be needed for similar things, and that's why

21    I wanted to protect the man.

22       Q.   Okay.  Thank you for --

23       A.   But nobody ever told me why the machine was actually needed.  This

24    was just my conclusion.

25       Q.   Okay.  Well, thank you very much, Witness.  I don't have any

Page 9239

 1    further questions.

 2            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Vanderpuye, if you are leaving that, as to what

 3    happened in Kravica warehouse, although he said he was flabbergasted or

 4    shocked and it had a devastating effect on him, he didn't give much of a

 5    description of what he heard from those two gentlemen.  So if you could

 6    get as far as you can, the verbatim description of what they told to the

 7    witness, please.

 8            MR. VANDERPUYE:  Certainly.  Certainly, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   You've heard the Judge's concern or question regarding to the

10    information that you received concerning Kravica.  Can you be more

11    specific or as specific as you can, I should say, with respect to the

12    information that was conveyed to you by these two gentlemen that you met

13    at 7.00 in the morning?

14       A.   They told me that on the 13th, in the afternoon, in a brutal way,

15    several hundreds of Muslims had been killed.  I can't remember the exact

16    number, but I believe that the figure that they had mentioned was some 600

17    or 700 people.  I tried to create a picture, being aware of the size of

18    that area, and I was shocked to hear that so many people could be squeezed

19    into such a small place and to be killed there.

20            I didn't go to see that, but according to their words, the corpses

21    were on top of each other in a very small room, some six to 700 people had

22    been killed there.  Later on various figures were mentioned and I don't

23    believe that the truth has ever been found out.  Nobody knows whether the

24    number of people killed were 500 or a thousand, but I believe that the

25    picture was terrible, that the killings had been committed by various

Page 9240

 1    tools or rifles, hand-grenades, whatnot, all sorts of weapons.

 2            Even they, these two men, when they had arrived to see all this,

 3    that they saw some unknown men, people that they didn't know.  And at one

 4    point arms were drawn against these two people who had introduced

 5    themselves as being the managers of that combine, then these people who

 6    were committing the crimes cursed them and ordered them to get away.

 7            There were some peasants who had their houses in the vicinity who

 8    were also shouted at, an elderly person who resided there who is godfather

 9    to one of the two, a very old and senile person.  He also was shocked and

10    everybody else in the vicinity who were passing by.  It was a terrible

11    thing.  I can't even begin to describe how it was.  I myself didn't see

12    it, but according to them, it was just atrocious.  It was terrible, it was

13    devastating.  It was shocking.

14       Q.   Could you just tell us, did they provide you any information as to

15    the state of the area at the time that they came to see you?

16       A.   I don't know what area are you referring to.  The building is on

17    the very road from Bratunac to Kravica and further on to Konjevic Polje.

18    It is some 10 kilometres [as interpreted] from the asphalt road, there is

19    a fence, and you can actually see it on the road.  It's actually 10 metres

20    from the asphalt road.

21       Q.   What I'm referring to is the condition of the building at the time

22    that they came to see you in the sense of whether or not it had been

23    cleaned up or was in the process of being cleaned up or anything of that

24    nature.

25       A.   Nothing had been done.  They did ask me what we should do.  I said

Page 9241

 1    nothing, we are powerless.  It's up to the army.  The army knows what to

 2    do, we're not supposed to interfere.  This is not our job.  So we did not

 3    arrive at any conclusions as to do something, that we should do something.

 4      This was just information, but we did not act upon it.  We didn't know

 5    what to do.  It was just information.

 6       Q.   All right.  Well, thank you very much, Witness.  I don't have any

 7    further questions at this point.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 9            Who is going first?

10            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  I'll be

11    the first to cross-examine the witness.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Go ahead.

13                          Cross-examination by Mr. Mrkic:

14       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

15       A.   Good morning.

16       Q.   I am a bit confused about the process of going into private

17    session or remaining in open session.  I will try and be cautious and

18    avoid the danger of making a mistake in light of what has been happening

19    so far, but let me apologise in advance.

20            When we are talking about the 11th of July, 1995, yesterday you

21    stated that on that day you were in a village called Pribicevac?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   In the vicinity, was there the command post of the Bratunac

24    Brigade?

25       A.   Yes.  This was not the command post of the Bratunac Brigade; it

Page 9242

 1    was the command post of the 3rd Battalion, i.e., up there, this was the

 2    zone of responsibility of the 3rd Battalion.  I suppose that this was also

 3    the command -- I wouldn't know.  I'm not sure.  It was called a command

 4    post, but whether this was the command post of the 3rd Battalion or the

 5    Bratunac Brigade, I wouldn't be sure of that.  I believe that Colonel

 6    Blagojevic who was the commander of the Bratunac Brigade was not there.

 7    Maybe General Krstic was there at that command post.  Maybe this was also

 8    the command post of the corps, I don't know.  I'm not sure.

 9            In any case, Colonel Blagojevic, the commander of the Bratunac

10    Brigade, was not there.  This was referred to as a command post, and I

11    know that General Krstic was there.  From the place where I was, where --

12    am I -- am I -- am I going too far?  I apologise.  Am I saying too much?

13       Q.   I would kindly ask you to answer my questions.  I don't have much

14    time.  Just please be very concise and straightforward.

15            A person very close to you was there, if I understood you well?

16       A.   Maybe some 200 or 250 metres away from the command post.

17       Q.   Who was the commander to you and that person very close to you?

18       A.   The commander of the 3rd Battalion.

19       Q.   What commander?  Was it Colonel Blagojevic?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   As you've told us, you had a very unpleasant encounter with

22    General Mladic.  When was the next time when you saw General Mladic?

23       A.   It was on the following morning, on the 12th.

24       Q.   And this is the event that you described as having taken place at

25    the command of the Bratunac Brigade?

Page 9243

 1       A.   Yes, at 8.00.

 2       Q.   And if I understood you well, it was MD who invited you to come to

 3    that meeting?

 4       A.   MD.  But he himself did not appear at that meeting.  MD.

 5       Q.   And who told you that you were supposed to be at the 10.00 meeting

 6    at Hotel Fontana?

 7       A.   General Mladic told me, and LJS that, just the two of us.

 8            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit 2D81?

 9    Page number 3 in B/C/S, please.  I will kindly ask the witness to read

10    that part.  Therefore, I would like us to go into private session.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  We will go into private session.

12            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

13            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] This is the English version, but

14    that's okay.

15       Q.   This is your interview that you provided to the investigators of

16    the OTP on the 28th of February.  Do you remember, did you talk to

17    Mr. Ruez on 28th February, 1998?

18       A.   In Pale.

19       Q.   I apologise.  It was on the 25th?

20       A.   Yes, in Pale, yes.  I remember that.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  We were doing fine, but you are now moving a little

22    bit too fast.  So if you could allow a short pause between question and

23    answer, please.

24            Witness, this is important because we have interpreters who need

25    to translate to us into English and French what you are saying in the

Page 9244

 1    Serbo-Croat language.  Thank you.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to bear that in mind.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.

 4            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5       Q.   I just wanted to point to you line 19.  You were discussing the

 6    organisation of that meeting in the Hotel Fontana on the 12th of July,

 7    1995.  Could you please read the question that starts in line 19.  The

 8    initials JR are the initials of Mr. Ruez, and he's asking you something.

 9    Can you please read line 19?  Maybe I can read it to you.  It says, "How

10    were you informed that --"

11       A.   I have in front of me.  Thank you.  Yes, I have it.  I have it.

12       Q.   Line 21 that you can't see very well.

13       A.   It says I was informed by Deronjic.  I can see that.

14       Q.   You say here that it was Deronjic who informed you.  Can you tell

15    us who Deronjic is?

16       A.   May I?  Miroslav Deronjic was the president of the local SDS, and

17    I believe that at that time President Karadzic had appointed him as the

18    civilian commissioner for Bratunac and Srebrenica.

19       Q.   That's enough.  Thank you.

20       A.   Enough.  Okay.

21       Q.   To the investigator's question, you answered that Miroslav

22    Deronjic informed you that you should attend that meeting.  Here you say

23    that General Mladic told you that you were supposed to attend the meeting.

24    I would like to clarify that.  Can you clarify this for us?

25       A.   I'll try and clarify this.  I did not mention the meeting at 8.00

Page 9245

 1    at the command of the Bratunac Brigade in this interview.  I didn't

 2    mention it because I did not consider this 8.00 encounter as a meeting.

 3       Q.   This is not what I'm asking you.

 4       A.   I'm just trying to establish a link.  That's why I said that

 5    Deronjic had informed me.  It was Deronjic who had informed me about that

 6    8.00 meeting.  Deronjic himself did not appear for that 8.00 meeting and

 7    when I was providing this interview to Mr. Ruez, I did not find it

 8    important to make a distinction.  Deronjic did not [as interpreted] come

 9    at 8.00, but he did come at 8.00 and I did not see it as very important

10    who was it who informed me about the 10.00 meeting.  But now I know.  I

11    know that it is important because Deronjic had not appeared at the command

12    at 8.00 and he had informed me about the 8.00 meeting.  It was only

13    logical that it could have been only General Mladic who could inform me

14    about the 10.00 meeting. That's why I never said to Mr. Ruez that it was

15    General Mladic who informed me about that meeting because, at the time, I

16    did not deem that to be important.  The fact that either one or the other

17    informed me about the meeting is something that I didn't deem important.

18    The most important thing for me was that I attended the meeting and it is

19    only now that I realise that it does make a difference.  This is my

20    explanation.

21            You have to bear in mind that this was a long time ago.

22       Q.   I just wanted to clarify this thing.

23       A.   Did I make myself clear now?

24       Q.   Can we go to the 12th of July.  You said that in the evening you

25    were --

Page 9246

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Do we remain in private session or can we move in

 2    open session now?

 3            MR. MRKIC:  Thank you.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's move into open session, please.

 5                          [Open session]

 6            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   On the 12th, in the afternoon and in the evening, you were in the

 8    your office, as far as I understood you?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And you had a visitor, a visitor with initials DM?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   What did you talk about?

13       A.   I don't think we talked shop.  It was a casual thing; we did not

14    have an agenda.  We were chatting, we were probably drinking coffee.

15       Q.   Did you talk about the situation in Potocari, since you had been

16    there?

17       A.   Yeah, well, it was an unavoidable subject.  There was war, and I'm

18    sure that we discussed war operations.  We compared notes.  It is only

19    logical that we spoke about that.  But there was no protocol to that.  It

20    wasn't on any agenda because there was no agenda.  It was -- I mean, we

21    could have easily been sitting in a cafe and discussed the same things.

22    But we didn't.  We were sitting in the office, we had a telephone there,

23    and that was it.

24       Q.   When you went to see what was happening in front of the municipal

25    building, did that person go with you?

Page 9247

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And was that person helping the people who were in the buses?

 3       A.   Together with me.  As much as I helped, they helped too.

 4       Q.   And when you received information that the buses were at the

 5    pitch, the field, what I understood you is that there was a possibility

 6    that the situation would be unsafe.  You said that old-age pensioners were

 7    sent there to create a kind of impression there.  Who sent them?  Who

 8    ordered it?

 9       A.   I really cannot be sure about that.  I didn't order it.  So I

10    wasn't the one who said they sent the old-age pensioners there.  I don't

11    know whether this was done by the police station that is close by the

12    playing field and that is responsible for the security and the law and

13    order in town anyway, but somebody did it in any case.

14       Q.   My next question is, how do you know that this was done?  Who told

15    you that?

16       A.   I heard it.  I don't know who told me.  I really cannot speculate

17    now.  I just want to be to the point and brief.

18       Q.   I -- from what I understood from your testimony, is that you met

19    that evening, the person with the initials MD?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And that you asked him what was happening and that he told you

22    that there was a certain person from a certain place, that they planted

23    this on him, that's what you said?

24       A.   Yes.  That was his reaction to my question.

25       Q.   Can you please tell me, the person who is from this other place,

Page 9248

 1    is that a person from the military structures or the civilians structures?

 2    Who is that person?  What do they do?

 3       A.   The person is from civilian structures with a lot of influence in

 4    the community where he lived and broader.

 5       Q.   If you can explain a little bit how you understood that, that that

 6    person was creating or planting this situation for the people in Bratunac?

 7       A.   I don't know why.  It's not clear to me why MD used that

 8    expression, it's a little bit vulgar.  I'm not sure why that person MD

 9    used that term, to plant something, to frame someone.  Probably thinking

10    that they wanted to protect their own place.  That's why they were pushing

11    that transport to Bratunac, to avoid any kind of mess in his own town and

12    he used his influence to do that to Bratunac, so that was MD's view, his

13    opinion.  I didn't say that.

14       Q.   I wanted to clarify one more situation about the school, because

15    there was something unclear about the school.  Is it the same school where

16    Muslim prisoners were placed in 1991 [as interpreted]?

17       A.   Yes.

18            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] If we can correct the transcript.  It

19    is 1992 and not 1991.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  It will be corrected.  Thank you.

21            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   On the 13th of July, 1995, you described all the things that were

23    happening, and you described a certain conversation that you had with

24    other persons and a conversation with Resid Sinanovic?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9249

 1       Q.   Did you know at the time that Resid Sinanovic was suspected of

 2    some war crime?

 3       A.   Yes, and I let him know that.

 4       Q.   Do you know that the person who allowed you to go and visit Resid

 5    Sinanovic actually questioned him or interrogated him about that?

 6       A.   Yes, yes.  I am aware of that.

 7       Q.   And how do you know that?

 8       A.   That he was a suspect?

 9       Q.   And that he was interrogated?

10       A.   I know that he was suspected of a crime because Sinanovic told me

11    that when I asked him, "Resid, why didn't you escape from Srebrenica over

12    the Drina to Tara just like many other Muslims did and surrendered to the

13    Red Cross of Serbia.  And then they were accommodated safely there."

14            He said, "I meant to do that, but I was in touch with -- with my

15    brother in Skopje through the radio."

16       Q.   Well, you don't need to tell us the whole story.  Maybe you can

17    just answer the question.

18       A.   Ivanisevic's book had already been published in which it was

19    stated that Resid Sinanovic and Sinanovic's family was a family of war

20    criminals and he found out that Enzic's job is that, he is an investigator

21    and an interrogator in the military police and that's how I know that.

22    Enzic told me about it himself, that he had talked with him.

23       *Q.   You also testified in the Blagojevic case and again you described

24    today three ways to requisition material and equipment?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9250

 1       Q.   Are you aware that actually the only legal way is to requisition

 2    the equipment through the defence ministry of Republika Srpska, which is

 3    then -- which then sends the request to the local authorities?  *These

 4    three ways that you described today, it is not said anywhere, and you

 5    yourself didn't mention that one of the ways to go was to go through the

 6    Executive Board.  I made a mistake.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll leave it in your hands to redact, okay.  Let's

 8    proceed.  She knows exactly where.

 9            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Can you explain to me now if the legal way is the one that I

11    explained?  First of all, do you agree with me that that is the legal way

12    to do it?

13       A.   Yes, I agree that that is the legal way, and I also agree that

14    perhaps I did not adhere to procedure, but it was wartime.  Some things

15    are done summarily, so perhaps this was done in this case too, that

16    procedure was respected, but it was done the way it was done.  *And I want

17    to say that I'm not a lawyer, I'm a teacher, so I'm not really all that

18    versed in laws and regulations.  I was just going along with things by

19    inertia.  After all it was war.

20       Q.   I completely agree with you.

21                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are taking care of some redactions.  In the

23    meantime, you can proceed.  But please be careful, both of you.  If you

24    want to know what we are redacting we can tell you, but you can trust our

25    judgement.

Page 9251

 1            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

 2       Q.   The situation is a little bit unclear to me.  You are not a

 3    lawyer.  It's a time of war, war conditions, and you are performing a

 4    certain function.  Did you have any lawyer that you were able to consult

 5    with?

 6       A.   Well, it's clear to me that not knowing the regulations can lead

 7    to harm, but at the time, I didn't think that was necessary.  I did have

 8    someone like that, but I didn't think it was necessary.  I could have

 9    consulted -- I was perhaps caught unawares with the speed of things and

10    the request.  I agree that I failed to adhere to procedure, but I don't

11    believe that I did anything wrong.  That's how it was done.

12       Q.   Do you know why I'm asking you that?  I'm asking you that because

13    now, today, in your testimony, you told about the first meeting that you

14    had on the 14th of July, 1995, where you were informed that something

15    terrible had happened, and you said that yourself, in Kravica.

16            After that, you had a meeting, an hour and a half later or an hour

17    and a bit later, and you then find yourself in a situation in the way that

18    you described.  So it's a little bit unclear to me.

19       A.   You call that a meeting?  As far as I was concerned, it was just

20    part of my ongoing, daily duties.  I have meetings like that every day;

21    tens of meetings like that, a conversation of 10 or 15 minutes.  It's not

22    a scheduled meeting.  As far as I'm concerned, that is just my daily work,

23    ongoing, regular duties.  And this meeting at the SDS was not something

24    that I considered to be a meeting, but just something that was ongoing.  A

25    conversation that took place, I was there for 20 minutes at the most.

Page 9252

 1       Q.   Well, you can call that whatever you like, a working meeting, a

 2    meeting, an encounter.  The fact is that, according to your testimony, two

 3    men who you don't know asked you to provide certain material and

 4    equipment, and that you, beforehand, were aware that something had

 5    happened.  So my question is why, in that situation, did you not respect

 6    the procedure, and if you were not familiar with the procedure, why didn't

 7    you consult a lawyer?

 8       A.   I really wouldn't know.  I did not.  Why I didn't, I don't know.

 9    Ten or 12 years since then, I don't know why I didn't -- I don't know if

10    there was time.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  He's answered this question on -- more than once

12    already.  So let's move to the next item, please.

13            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   If it's not a problem, I would also like to ask you about this

15    situation with two men who are absolutely unknown to you.  Did they

16    consult -- did you consult the Bratunac Brigade about them?

17       A.   No, I didn't.

18       Q.   Did you ask them where they came from?

19       A.   No, I didn't.

20       Q.   Did you ask them in what capacity they were there?

21       A.   Twelve years later, you're asking a lot of me.  My memory since

22    then has faded a lot.  I told you "no" in response to your previous two

23    questions, but perhaps I did.  What I remember was that I did not.

24    Perhaps they told me that they were from the corps, but I don't remember

25    that now.  But let's say that they did not say that, or that they were

Page 9253

 1    not.  I really cannot say now, after 12 years.

 2       Q.   All right.  You remember, you don't remember, very well.

 3       A.   All right.

 4       Q.   Did you ask them why they needed the machinery?

 5       A.   No, I didn't.  I said that already, that I had an idea for myself

 6    why they needed the equipment.

 7       Q.   I agree with you that, after 12 years, memory fades.  Does that

 8    also imply that the events that are more recent are fresher in your

 9    recollection?  Why am I asking that?  I am asking you that because you

10    talked with Mr. Ruez three years after that event, less than three years

11    after that, and you told Mr. Ruez, an investigator of the OTP, nothing

12    about this.

13       A.   He didn't ask me anything about that.

14            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

15    Exhibit 2D81.  In Serbian, it's page 14, lines 33 and 34.

16       Q.   If you look at Mr. Ruez's question, which begins on line 33, where

17    he says, "So, during July, 1995, you have no knowledge of there being a

18    need for mass burials of victims or other persons?"  It's a very direct

19    question.

20            On the next page, on page 15, line 1, there is your answer.  And

21    your answer is negative, that you didn't have any information, you

22    practically just said "no."  But this implies that you didn't have any

23    information about there being any need for mass burials of victims or

24    other persons.  So Mr. Ruez asked you directly about this.

25       A.   I thought he was asking me about Serb burials.

Page 9254

 1       Q.   Why did you think that?

 2       A.   That's what I thought.  I don't know why I thought that.  But at

 3    that time, that's what I thought, that he was asking about those burials.

 4    Because we were dealing with burials of Serbian victims directly, yes.

 5       Q.   I really don't want to listen about 1993, the number of people

 6    then.  This is a very direct question.  And my direct question is about

 7    July of 1995 and the mass burial of victims and other persons.  And your

 8    answer was "no."  In other words, this was not about Serbs, about a

 9    different period, for example, 1993, no.  This is about July 1995, and you

10    provided a negative answer.

11            My question to you is this:  Can you explain why did you say to

12    Mr. Ruez that you didn't know anything about the need to bury --

13       A.   I suppose --

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  He has answered the question already, Mr. Mrkic.

15    Move to your next question.  Once he gives you an answer, unless it's an

16    unclear answer, you should proceed to the next one.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that I didn't understand

18    Ruez completely.  If that was his goal, he could have asked me some

19    subquestions.  He could have clarified a little.  I misunderstood his

20    question.  I said "no."  If he hadn't been satisfied, maybe he should have

21    asked me additional questions so as to make it absolutely clear what he

22    wanted.  In this case, my answer would have been different.  But he did

23    not lead me properly in that interview.

24            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Since we're talking about that, *I suppose that you remember your

Page 9255

 1    *evidence in the Blagojevic case, do you?

 2       A.   I suppose I don't know what you're referring to.

 3       *Q.   You were asked the same thing in the Blagojevic case, and your

 4    answer was that at the time you did not believe this to be at all

 5    important.  I can show it to you.

 6       A.   I can tell you now that Ruez also didn't think that this was

 7    important.  If it had been important to him, he would have continued, ask

 8    me questions along the same line.  I don't...

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are taking care of the redactions.  Don't worry.

10    Go ahead.  But if, possible, please, you could refrain from referring to

11    certain events that could expose his identity.

12            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   Do you remember the conversation that you had with Mr. Ruez when

14    you spoke about the meeting that took place in the early morning hours of

15    the 14th of July when you were told about the events that had taken place

16    in Kravica?  Did you ever mention that to Mr. Ruez?

17       A.   Is there a document?  Is there a transcript?

18       Q.   Yeah, there is a transcript of that interview.  There is a

19    recording of that interview.  I can provide it to you during the break.

20    But I didn't find it anywhere.

21       A.   I suppose I didn't mention it then.  If it's not in the

22    transcript, then I didn't mention it.  If I had mentioned it, I'm sure you

23    would have been able to find it.

24       Q.   Can you agree with me then that in February of 1998 you never

25    mentioned Colonel Beara to Mr. Ruez?

Page 9256

 1       A.   I didn't.  If it's not in the transcript, then I did not.

 2       Q.   Can you agree with me that in February 1998 you didn't say a thing

 3    to Mr. Ruez about the meeting that you allegedly had with these two

 4    officers on the 14th of July, 1995?

 5       A.   I didn't.

 6       Q.   Can you also agree with me that in February 1998 you also didn't

 7    say anything to Mr. Ruez about the fact that some machines were required

 8    from you, that something to that effect was asked from you?

 9       A.   He never asked me that.

10       Q.   Very well, but who asked you that?  Who did?

11       A.   When?

12       Q.   The first time ever.  When was it the first time you were ever

13    asked about that?

14       *A.   I suppose that it was Karnavas in the Blagojevic case.  I really

15    can't remember.  I'm saying "perhaps" or "probably."  I'm not sure who was

16    the first to ask me that.

17            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session,

18    please.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  In the meantime, we are also redacting.  Let's go

20    into private session.

21            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session already.

23            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Will you agree with me that the first time you mentioned that was

25    as a Defence witness in Blagojevic?  On page -- on the side of Colonel

Page 9257

 1    Blagojevic, actually.

 2       A.   Let me tell you, I'm not sure, but I'm sure that I was telling the

 3    truth.  That's what I'm sure of.  When, where I said it for the first

 4    time, I really can't be of -- sure of that.  But I adhere by what I said.

 5    It is possible that it was then when I mentioned it the first time.  I'm

 6    not sure, I don't want to speculate.  But I did say it.

 7       Q.   Do you know what the Defence case of Mr. Blagojevic was?

 8       A.   I beg your pardon?

 9       Q.   What was the Defence case of Mr. Blagojevic, that he was not in

10    the area at the time and that the security officers are responsible for

11    whatever happened?

12       A.   Don't ask me that.

13       Q.   I'm asking you this because nothing of --

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  He made it before us, actually.  So your next

15    question, please.

16            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] We can go back into open session,

17    please.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go back to open session then, please.

19                          [Open session]

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

21            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   When you were talking about DM, can you tell us, please, what was

23    your relationship, relationship between the two of you?

24       A.   There were two people with the same initials, DM.

25       Q.   The one who was director.

Page 9258

 1       A.   Well, we had a good relationship.  We resided in the same place,

 2    we were the same generation, we were friends before the war, during the

 3    war, we are still friends and peers.  We cooperated, he was the director

 4    of the public utility company, and the founder of the municipality, and we

 5    had an extremely good relationship.

 6       Q.   You are talking about your personal relationship.  What about your

 7    professional relationship?  Did he report to you, was it he responsible to

 8    you, i.e., the institution that you worked for?

 9       A.   Yes, when it came to the supply of the city with water and also

10    when it came to garbage collection.  In those two respects he was

11    responsible to the municipality and to the Executive Board.  When it came

12    to the municipal utilities this was within the purview of the

13    municipality.

14       Q.   When you say that you also imply the use of some machinery?

15       A.   Yes, but only if they are used to repair the mains, the water

16    infrastructure, and so on and so forth.

17       Q.   So we're talking about regular maintenance, regular circumstances?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   What about extraordinary circumstances?

20       A.   What's extraordinary?

21       Q.   For example, natural disasters?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   War operations?

24       A.   Yes, the public utilities and the civilians' protection would

25    intervene together.

Page 9259

 1       Q.   And what about war operations?

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Slow down, please.  You're running too fast.  Thank

 3    you.

 4            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   War operations, the engagement of machinery in war operations?

 6       A.   I don't think that they were responsible before the Executive

 7    Board, no.

 8       Q.   Also, who did they report to?

 9       A.   The Ministry of Defence and the secretariat for national defence.

10       Q.   So we're now talking legalities here.  In your personal and

11    professional relationship that was very close, as far as I understood you,

12    did that person inform you about any of his activities during that period?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   He didn't say a thing?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   That he had some meetings?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   I am asking you as a person who was an official, in case the

19    machinery was involved in any activities, especially the machinery that

20    belonged to the public utilities, would that require a report?

21       A.   To whom?

22       Q.   A report on the work within that institution, within that

23    organisation?

24       A.   There might have been a report.  Maybe a report was drafted, I

25    don't know.

Page 9260

 1       Q.   But I'm asking you whether that would be a customary thing, to

 2    draft a report, on the use of such machinery?

 3       A.   There should be a paper trail on everything.  If a piece of

 4    machinery was used, then there would also be fuel used and there should be

 5    a paper trail to that effect.

 6       Q.   What about locations?

 7       A.   I don't know.  I was not director of that company.  I wouldn't

 8    know.  I did not have any machinery at my disposal.

 9            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go into private session?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session, please.

11            [Private session]   [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in private session.

13            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14       Q.   Let me ask you something about your relationship with Mr. Miroslav

15    Deronjic.  Would you agree with me that Miroslav Deronjic was factually

16    the power-wielder in Bratunac, that all the power was in his hands?

17       A.   I would agree with you partly.  Miroslav Deronjic was the number

18    one person in Bratunac with the highest authority, most influence.  I

19    can't say that everybody asked him about everything a hundred per cent of

20    the things, but he had the say in quite a lot of things.

21       Q.   What was your relationship with him in the political sense, in the

22    sense of the organisation of the civilian powers?

23       A.   First of all, we were neighbours.  Our -- we are -- we were

24    first-door neighbours.  I am a bit older than him.  We were very good

25    neighbours; very, very good neighbours.  I can't say that we shared the

Page 9261

 1    same political opinions.  He joined the SDS at the beginning of

 2    multi-party system, and I was with the SDP and it was only 1996 that I

 3    joined the SDS.  However, irrespective of that, we had a good

 4    relationship.  We respected each other's opinions.  He had more influence.

 5    We all respected him and we held him in high esteem.

 6       Q.   I don't think I'll be able to wrap up this topic within a minute.

 7    It will be my suggestion that we have our next break now.  Are we in

 8    private session?  Excuse me.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go to open session.

10                          [Open session]

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  It's time to have a break.  So you will continue

12    your cross-examination in 25 minutes' time, Mr. Mrkic.  Thank you.

13                          --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

14                          --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  So, before you continue, Mr. Mrkic, Judge Stole

16    cannot be with us for the last session, due to unavoidable reasons.  So we

17    are proceeding pursuant to Rule 15 bis (A).

18            Yes, Mr. Mrkic.

19            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since we

20    have started with this topic in private session, I would like to ask to

21    return to private session, please?

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  By all means.  Let's revert to private session,

23    please.

24    [Private session]   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

25            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9262

 1       Q.   What was your relationship with Mr. Deronjic in political terms?

 2    Was he your superior, were you obliged to listen to his orders,

 3    instructions?

 4       A.   From 1996 he was my superior, because that was when I joined the

 5    SDS.  Before that, I was not in the party, however the party put me

 6    forward, even though I wasn't a member, for the post of president of the

 7    Executive Board in 1994.

 8       Q.   In 1994, when you came to that post, did you receive any orders

 9    from him?

10       A.   Well, he wasn't really our superior; it wasn't his practice.  We

11    had our own board.  It was a seven-member body, and we wouldn't be making

12    all the decisions.  Sometimes he would attend these conferences, if some

13    topic of interest would be on the agenda.

14            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

15    Exhibit 2D81.  The English version is on page 11, lines 29 to 33, and in

16    Serbian, page 12, lines two to six.  This is the English -- this is the

17    Serbian version.

18            Can we please split the screen so that we can have both versions

19    on the monitor?  Can we scroll down the English version, please?  The

20    Serbian version is fine.  These are lines 29 to 33 in English, and in

21    Serbian, lines two to six.

22       Q.   In the interview that you gave to Mr. Ruez, you said, amongst

23    other things, that you received orders directly from Deronjic because

24    Deronjic was in charge of civilian affairs in the town, and he was

25    appointed by the president himself, and that you had no contact with the

Page 9263

 1    army and they did not issue orders to you, the army.  They followed their

 2    line of work, and you followed your civilian line of work.  If you can

 3    explain, please, what you meant by that?

 4       A.   This is understood for that period of the 11th, 12th, the 13th and

 5    the 14th, at the time Deronjic was appointed by President Karadzic as the

 6    commissioner for civilian affairs for the municipalities of Bratunac and

 7    Srebrenica.  This did not refer to the period before the 11th of July,

 8    1995.  I think that this is clear now, isn't it?

 9            During the Srebrenica operation, during that period, he was

10    appointed, and he was the person -- well, perhaps I wasn't precise enough

11    here regarding that contact with the military.  We still had contacts with

12    them through the logistics deputy in terms of supplying the brigade with

13    food, cigarettes, and so on.  This is something that was in the -- part of

14    the duties of the Executive Board.  But during the actual operation, we

15    didn't have any contacts with the military, we didn't participate in that.

16       Q.   That is precisely what I'm interested in.  It says here that we

17    received orders directly from Deronjic.  If we put that in the context of

18    the 11th of July, 1995, onwards, Mr. Deronjic was performing this post, he

19    was appointed to by President Karadzic.  What kind of orders did you

20    receive from Deronjic?  Can you please answer that first and then I will

21    would move to my next question?

22       A.   I'm not thinking of anything particular.  Perhaps I was imprecise

23    here when talking to Mr. Ruez.  There were no particular orders.  We

24    didn't do anything in particular, we just made sure that the town had

25    electricity, water, that the children went to school, that the shops were

Page 9264

 1    supplied; that was our job.  So that was when we were perhaps receiving

 2    some sort of suggestion or an order from Deronjic, but we didn't receive

 3    any particular orders in terms of the military.  We were simply dealing

 4    with the normal functioning of things in town.

 5       Q.   Does that imply that you were not obliged, if you did receive an

 6    order from the military, to carry out that order?

 7       A.   We could only receive a request from the army, practically the

 8    brigade needs 100 uniforms, for example.  It needs 500 packs of

 9    cigarettes, and all we could say was we have that and we can do or we

10    don't have it and we cannot do it.  The army needs a hundred litres of

11    oil, for example, cooking oil; we have it.  This is the kind of thing --

12    this kind of thing that has to do with logistic supplies of food,

13    clothing, cigarettes, and fuel.  If petrol station had any and the army

14    needed a tonne of fuel, we either had it or didn't have it.  It was clear

15    what sort of demands or requests the military made to us.

16       Q.   I wasn't asking you about requests, I was asking you about orders.

17       A.   No, no, the army did not issue orders to us.

18       Q.   And what about war prisoners, prisoners of war, what was your

19    relationship with the army in that sense?

20       A.   We had nothing to do with that.

21            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] If the witness can be shown Exhibit

22    P -- from the 65 ter list, P10, Exhibit P10.  We are still in private

23    session.

24            This is a decision on the appointment of the civilian commissioner

25    for the Serbian municipality of Srebrenica signed by the President of the

Page 9265

 1    Republic, Radoslav -- Radovan Karadzic.

 2       Q.   I would like to draw your attention to Article 4, and if we can

 3    comment on that, please.  Specifically, in the context that we have just

 4    talked about.

 5            Paragraph 4 says, "The commissioner shall ensure that all civilian

 6    and military organs treat all citizens who participated in combat against

 7    the army of Republika Srpska as prisoners of war and ensure that the

 8    civilian population can freely choose where they will live or move to."

 9            You have just stated that, in terms of prisoners of war, civilian

10    organs did not have any jurisdiction.  Through this decision, at least it

11    does not seem so to me.  So can you please comment on this decision.  From

12    what I understood, you are aware of the existence of this decision, right?

13       A.   I did hear of it, but I'm not actually aware of it.  This does not

14    concern the municipality of Bratunac, but the municipality of Serbian

15    Srebrenica.

16       Q.   Yes, we're talking about the prisoners of war from Srebrenica.

17       A.   This decision appointing Deronjic as commissioner for civilian

18    affairs of the municipality of Serbian Srebrenica is just that.  But it

19    does not refer to Bratunac, the municipality of Bratunac and its own

20    organs.  It had its own president and it is stated here very clearly.

21       Q.   That's not the problem.  I'm just placing that in the context of

22    what you told Mr. Ruez.

23       A.   We had nothing to do with prisoners of war.  Please, and -- please

24    don't ask me about that.  I am very clear on that.

25       Q.   I'm asking you that because you, in your testimony, said that in

Page 9266

 1    front of the buses that were in Bratunac there were civilian policemen.

 2    I'm also asking you because you, in your testimony, said that people from

 3    civilian structures, you don't know who, sent retired persons to the

 4    playing fields and the schools, if I understood that correctly, to make it

 5    seem as if the security was stronger, because the situation was unsafe.

 6    So I'm talking about prisoners of war from Srebrenica.  I'm talking about

 7    how Mr. Miroslav Deronjic was appointed as civilian commissioner with the

 8    duties we have just mentioned, and I'm talking about that.  And my

 9    question is too long.

10       A.   I don't see any sense in what you're asking.  I don't know what

11    you mean when you say "civilian policemen."  There is a term, military

12    police, these are people with white cross-belts and green camouflage

13    uniforms.  We also have the civilian police, if that is the correct name.

14    They have blue camouflage uniforms, and if that's the kind of police that

15    you are thinking of.  I don't know what you mean when you say civilian

16    police.  These are members of the public security service.

17       Q.   And under whose jurisdiction are they?

18       A.   The ministry of internal affairs.

19       Q.   And in Bratunac?

20       A.   Again, under the jurisdiction of the ministry of internal affairs.

21    There is no third type of police.  I know about two kinds of police,

22    military police, which is in the army, and there is the civilian police

23    which is under the ministry for internal affairs.

24            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the question by the

25    Defence counsel.

Page 9267

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  We will hear the next -- please move to another

 2    topic or area please, Mr. Mrkic.

 3            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Since we are still in private session, I would like to go back to

 5    your meeting of the 14th of July, 1995.  I would just like to ask you what

 6    was the name of the secretary who called you to come to the municipal

 7    offices of the SDS on the 14th of July in the morning.

 8       A.   Her name is Mirna.

 9       Q.   Do you know what her last name is?

10       A.   She was single then; she wasn't married.

11       Q.   You either know it or you don't know it?

12       A.   I think Nikolic.  I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I think her name

13    is Mirna.  I know her father's name.

14       Q.   Well, go ahead, if you can give us as many particulars as you can.

15       A.   His name is Milorad, her father, he worked in the Jasanic forestry

16    service.  That was it.  She's now married and lives in Bajina Basta.

17       Q.   I would also like to ask you if you remember the person that you

18    spoke with and who introduced himself as Colonel Ljubisa Beara?

19       A.   Yes, I do remember that person.

20       Q.   Can you describe that person?

21       A.   I see that person here now.  And the face has changed a lot.  At

22    the time he looked very different, more vigorous, younger, in a better

23    mood.  I don't know.  Had I not known that it was Colonel Beara, I would

24    not have recognised him if I saw him in the street.  I still have -- or I

25    still remember him as what -- what he looked like then.  I wouldn't

Page 9268

 1    recognise him now in the street.

 2       Q.   How do you know that it is Mr. Beara?

 3       A.   Well, let me put it this way:  I regularly follow "The Hague

 4    Diary" broadcast, which is shown for half an hour every Saturday, so I see

 5    many faces.  I'm familiar with the Trial Chamber, with many persons from

 6    the Registry, the Prosecution.  I know all these faces from seeing them on

 7    television.  I've seen His Honour Judge Agius in the Blagojevic case, I

 8    think.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  I must have looked very different then, because I --

10    I wasn't on the Blagojevic case.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Deronjic case.  Well, in any

12    case, I know your face very well, and you look very good and you don't

13    change that much.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move to another subject, Mr. Mrkic, please.

15            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9269











11 Page 9269 redacted.















Page 9270

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go back to open session.

 2                          [Open session]

 3            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   I would like to go back to the meeting that was held on the 14th.

 5    The two officers -- but let's first confirm one thing.  Mr. Beara did not

 6    enter with you, the person who introduced himself as Colonel Beara didn't

 7    enter with you?

 8       A.   No, he stayed in the office where I found him.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Witness and Mr. Mrkic --

10            MR. MRKIC:  I didn't finish my question and he already --

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  It's not your fault, it's the witness, actually.

12    But please allow a short pause between question and answer. All right.

13            MR. MRKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14       Q.   [Interpretation] See if I understand the situation well, in that

15    other office you were there with the two officers?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Was that the office belonging to the person that we have just

18    spoken about?  We are in open session.

19       A.   MD, yes.

20       Q.   Where was he at the time?

21       A.   I wouldn't know.  I don't know.

22       Q.   The two officers in question with whom you spoke and who never

23    introduced themselves to you, and you don't know which unit they belonged

24    to, were they at the Fontana meeting?

25       A.   I don't think so, no.  I wouldn't say that they were.

Page 9271

 1       Q.   So you saw them for the first time at that moment?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   The person who you think was Colonel Ljubisa Beara, did you see

 4    him before?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Did you see him at the Fontana?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   When you said that a driver was required for that piece of

 9    machinery, if I understand your testimony well, was it one of the officer

10    who told you that he would be providing a driver for that machine?

11       A.   No, no.  We never mentioned any drivers.  I was the one who

12    mentioned that, because I thought a man has to go with the machinery.

13    Maybe they had somebody in the military, but that was my conclusion, if a

14    piece of equipment was required, then a man should accompany that piece of

15    equipment.  And this person used that piece of equipment, and that's why I

16    thought he would accompany the machine.  They never mentioned the person

17    who would be handling the machine, none of them did.

18       Q.   What was their reaction?

19       A.   It was a stormy reaction.  One of them was very aggressive when he

20    said, "It's not up to you to say who can handle the machine and who

21    can't."  And we stopped at that.  I apologised.  I said this was just a

22    remark, you have no obligations towards me, and that's how the

23    conversation ended.

24            And let me just tell you this:  When I went to that office, when I

25    left the SDS premises, I spoke to the director of the brickworks on the

Page 9272

 1    phone, and the machinery belonged to him, and I told him that people from

 2    the military would come and that he should give them the machine.  Whether

 3    the people came to fetch the machine, whether he gave it to them, I don't

 4    know.  I never investigated.  I don't know whether the machine was ever

 5    given to these people or not.  I don't know.

 6       Q.   Something else I would like to know about that.  Which of the two

 7    officers told you that it was not up to you to ponder that issue?

 8       A.   I wouldn't know.

 9       Q.   Colonel, lieutenant-colonel?

10       A.   Don't know.  He was very fresh with me and I was hardly waiting to

11    leave the room.  I didn't know anybody.  I didn't know any of them.  If I

12    knew their names, then I would maybe shed some light on that, but I didn't

13    know any of the names.  I wouldn't be able to put any names to any of the

14    faces, so I couldn't care less.

15       Q.   Did you ever tell anybody about the meeting that you had after the

16    meeting?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Did you tell anything to the person that we discussed a while ago?

19       A.   MD?  No.  I just called the director and told him what I told him.

20       Q.   I would like to go back to another situation, which took place in

21    1992.  We confirmed that in 1992, in the same school where the detainees

22    were kept in 1995, the detainees were also kept there in 1992.  Do you

23    agree with me?

24       A.   I agree with you, but I only know it as a private person.  At that

25    time, I was not in any position in the municipality.  I was just a foot

Page 9273

 1    soldier; I had been mobilised to the army.  I heard about that, that this

 2    lasted for a few days in Bratunac, but I never went to the school myself.

 3    At the time, I was not involved in politics.  I was not in any position.

 4    I was just a foot soldier.  And it was not of any interest to me.  I just

 5    heard about it in passing.

 6       Q.   So you said this about the school.  Let me ask you, according to

 7    what you know, whether in 1992, Muslims were also kept in the playground?

 8       A.   Yes, they were.

 9       Q.   Do you know where they were buried?

10       A.   Muslims?  Don't know.

11       Q.   Did you hear --

12       A.   It is only -- I apologise.  May I?  It is only now that we hear

13    about graves being discovered, bodies being unearthed, but I myself don't

14    know where burials took place, who was buried, and this is something that

15    is being done now, and you can read about it in -- in the press and watch

16    it on TV.

17       Q.   Can you agree with me when I say that during that period this was

18    still localised, at a local level, in 1992?

19       A.   Yes, in Bratunac municipality.  I don't know what the situation

20    was like in other municipalities.  I suppose that Bratunac was not alone

21    in all that.

22            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Can I please consult with my

23    colleagues just for a moment, if you can bear with me, please.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, by all means.

25                          [Defence counsel confer]

Page 9274

 1            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   I would just like to clarify a few more things.  In the interview

 3    that you gave to Mr. Ruez, you mentioned that you had some notes.  If you

 4    want me, I can find that in Exhibit Number 2D81, page number 3 in the

 5    English version.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  If we are going to remain in open session, then I

 7    suggest that, if it's shown up on the monitor, it's not broadcast and we

 8    can remain in open session.  Unless you prefer to go in private session,

 9    in which case we would grant you that as well.  You choose, Mr. Mrkic.

10            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] I believe we can stay in open session,

11    but the document should not be displayed.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what you're asking me.  But

13    go ahead, ask me.  I assume what you're going to say.  I know why I said

14    this to Ruez.  I suppose that he asked me about some events, about some

15    dates that I was not sure about, that I didn't know, and I suppose --

16    actually, I know that I told him that I could check that.  I did not have

17    any particular notes at work.  I had an agenda where I entered various

18    dates.  For example, on the 8th of February, I had a to-do list and I

19    ticked the boxes of the things that were done.  That's what I meant when I

20    said that I had notes.  In that agenda book, there were dates and entries

21    that could have jogged my memory.  I did not keep a war diary, if that's

22    what I mean.  I did not have any special notes.  I'm sorry that I didn't,

23    actually.  I don't -- I'm not saying that I wish for the things to repeat,

24    but I didn't keep a diary at the time.

25       Q.   No, no --

Page 9275

 1       A.   Well I -- I may have jumped the gun.  I might -- I thought that

 2    you -- you were after this, after --

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Witness.  Perhaps you do realise yourself that

 4    in this case maybe you are running, and running fast.  I would suggest to

 5    you that you wait until you hear the question that is put to you, and then

 6    answer the question and nothing but the question.  Because otherwise

 7    you're going to be here for days and days.  And it's in everybody's --

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Mrkic.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your understanding.

11            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12       Q.   I'm asking you this because we also received from our learned

13    friend from the Prosecution another set of notes.  I would just like to

14    see with you whether we are talking about the same set of notes or a

15    different set of notes.  Did you make some notes recently?

16       A.   Yes, I did.  I made some notes here at the Tribunal when I was

17    listening to the tape of *my testimony in the Blagojevic case, and I made

18    notes of some dates and these are the notes that I gave to the Prosecutor.

19    The Prosecutor took those notes from me.  I believe that this is the set

20    of notes that you're referring to.

21       Q.   In other words, those are not the notes that you mentioned in the

22    interview with Mr. Ruez?

23       A.   Of course not.  Those are the notes that I made two days ago, not

24    those that I made in 1995.

25       Q.   I've noticed two things in that set of notes.  Maybe we could talk

Page 9276

 1    about that.  First of all, did you note the most important things or the

 2    things that you remember the best?

 3       A.   If I had known that it would reach your hands, I would not have

 4    made any notes at all.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Witness.  Witness.  Again, once more, I have to

 6    remind you to please allow Mr. Mrkic, and for that matter, every our

 7    lawyer that will be cross-examining you later on, to finish their question

 8    first before you start jumping in with your answer.  Okay?

 9            Mr. Mrkic, I --

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Again, thank you.

11    Mr. Mrkic's cross-examination has been going on for too long.  And -- and

12    if I had known that these notes would ever reach either the Prosecution or

13    him, I would never have made them.  I just kept the notes for myself.  I

14    might have been imprecise or ambiguous, but what can I do now?  It has

15    reached your hands.  Go ahead, fire away.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Mrkic.  We've got six, seven minutes left.

17            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] I'll try and finish within that period

18    of time.

19       Q.   Let me ask you then.  Why are you against either me or some other

20    colleagues of mine looking at these notes?

21       A.   We've talked about everything.  I just made a note of some dates

22    to jog my own memory.  I am not bothered.  I apologise for having said it

23    at all.  I'm not bothered by the fact that you are aware of my notes.

24       Q.   Is it because under 14 July 1995 you have noted that you were

25    invited by the SDS secretary to come to the SDS and that you met up with

Page 9277

 1    Colonel Beara when you got there?

 2       A.   This is exactly what I said.

 3       Q.   But there is nothing in your notes about the meeting that you had

 4    with the two officers and what they had asked you.

 5       A.   This was just a reminder.  I knew that this happened at the time.

 6    I did not have to remind myself of that.  This is a reminder, a note, for

 7    myself.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 9            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I don't believe the witness has a copy of the

10    notes, and perhaps, you know, I have a copy of them, and I could furnish

11    it to them, but I would --

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  I was going to suggest that Mr. Mrkic gives him his

13    back, and then we can move to another topic.

14            Do you want to pursue this line of questions on his notes, or not,

15    Mr. Mrkic?

16            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Just two or three questions and then I

17    will move to another topic.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Go ahead.

19            MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have found a copy.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please, by all means.  Just show it to

21    Mr. Ostojic or Mr. Mrkic.

22            THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

23            MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Are these the notes that you kept?

25       A.   Yes.  Yes, it was in one notebook, and now this is a copy.

Page 9278

 1       Q.   If you can look at the part that refers to the 14th of July, 1995,

 2    please.  I think it's the one but last page.

 3       A.   I know where it is.

 4       Q.   I'm interested in what you wrote later, or afterwards, at the end.

 5    Could you please read that?

 6       A.   May I take it?  I repeat again, this was just a kind of summary

 7    for me, and I wrote this at the end in order to just remind myself.  Let

 8    me read that.  I did not inform anyone about the situation in Bratunac

 9    because I did not have any communication, either with the government or

10    the assembly.  I think that it was the duty of MD, because he was

11    appointed as commissioner by the President for the municipality of

12    Srebrenica.

13            This is something that I said already.

14       Q.   If I can put a question to you now.

15       A.   Yes, go ahead.

16       Q.   If I understood you correctly, you made these notes to have a

17    reminder about the events by the dates in the sequence that they took

18    place.  So what is the purpose of this commentary at the end?  It's not a

19    reminder of the events or of any facts.  It's not a reminder -- well,

20    sincerely speaking, this seems like a justification to me.

21       A.   A justification for whom?  For me.  Not to me.  For me, it's still

22    a reminder so that I can tell the Tribunal what I wrote, but perhaps

23    differently.  I mean, this is just a reminder for me stating that during

24    the Srebrenica operation I had no communication at all with the state

25    leadership, either in the government or the political leadership, and that

Page 9279

 1    this communication, if anybody had such communication, was -- it was

 2    Deronjic.  I, or the municipal assembly president, LJS, did not

 3    communicate, we did not have a prime minister, a president of the assembly

 4    or anyone.  So it was just a reminder for me.  It's not a justification.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can stop here for the day, Mr. Mrkic, if

 6    you agree.

 7            MR. MRKIC:  That's my suggestion, Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 9            Witness, look at me.  It's very important, and I'm telling you

10    this in a most serious manner possible, that between now and when you

11    finish your testimony, you do not communicate with anyone.  And when I say

12    anyone, that includes other possible witnesses, on the subject matter of

13    your testimony.  Similarly, not to allow anyone to contact you or discuss

14    matters related to your testimony here.  Do you understand me?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, I understand, and I

16    am not communicating with anyone in -- about my testimony.  As for the

17    fact that we are accommodated all together in the hotel, all the

18    witnesses, well, then, you should have put us up in different hotels, so

19    that we don't see each other at all.  But we don't talk about testimony,

20    we just sit in the lobby, in the dining-room, we talk about football,

21    travel, about The Hague, where we were, what we did.  Otherwise we should

22    be put in different hotels.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Enough.  I think the witness can -- I think we can

24    finish here today and we will continue tomorrow.  We stand adjourned until

25    9.00 tomorrow morning.  Thank you.

Page 9280

 1                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 2                          to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of March,

 3                          2007, at 9.00 a.m.























* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012