Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9467

1 Tuesday, 27 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Usher [sic], good afternoon to you and to

6 everybody. Could you kindly call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. I notice all the accused are

10 present. I only notice the absence of Mr. Haynes from the Defence teams.

11 The Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.

12 I understand, Mr. McCloskey or Mr. Thayer, that you have a short

13 preliminary. Yes, go ahead.

14 MR. THAYER: Yes. Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,

15 good afternoon, everyone. Very briefly, in -- with respect to the

16 protective measures application regarding Witness 49, the Chamber had

17 inquired yesterday as to Witness 49's current profession, and I'll try to

18 stay in open session for this. I didn't have much in the way of

19 particulars. I do now. I think I can share a little bit more, which may

20 or may not bear on the Court's pending decision. I just wanted to bring

21 the information such as it was to the attention of the Court. (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Why don't you do this in private session. We went

25 through all this already in private session when Mr. Josse was addressing

Page 9468

1 the Chamber.

2 MR. THAYER: Will do, then.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, let's go into open [sic] session, and just to

4 be on the cautious side let's redact the last -- lines 22 and 23 of page

5 1. And you can repeat the same in -- or if you need to, in private

6 session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9469











11 Page 9469 redacted. Private session















Page 9470

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: We are continuing to speak with Mr. Bourgon and

23 Ms. Nikolic about the Defence expert. I don't think that should be a

24 problem, we'll work out the details with that and we'll give them to you

25 once we have them.

Page 9471

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

2 Yes, Mr. Bourgon, if you wish to address the Chamber.

3 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, president. I am ready at this time

4 to provide the Trial Chamber with some dates that were discussed between

5 all the Defence team and the Prosecution, if you would like me to do so at

6 this time or to wait later.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think wait until you hear what we have to say and

8 then of course we will be very extremely interested in hearing what you

9 have to say.

10 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And this is...

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I apologise to the

14 interpreters. My microphone was switched off. Perhaps it will be useful,

15 on second thought, to hear the result of the ongoing negotiations or

16 consultations between you and the Prosecution. I thank you so much

17 Mr. Bourgon and Mr. McCloskey for having pursued this matter. Also with

18 the utmost celerity after you raised it in one the sittings last week or

19 earlier on this week.

20 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. The idea is the Defence

21 proposes to hear an expert witness in the case of the intercepts. The

22 scope of the report would cover the technical aspects of the

23 intercept-taking exercise, showing that it was simply not possible to

24 intercept the type of conversations being led by the Prosecution into

25 evidence. So this is why, in our view, it goes to admissibility.

Page 9472

1 In order to -- for this to happen, we discussed with the

2 Prosecution and we would agree on following dates we that we propose to

3 the Trial Chamber. The Defence expert report could be ready and filed

4 along with the proper notice by 23 April. Then starting the calendar from

5 23 April, the witness could testify, depending of course, it would be for

6 the Prosecution to fit that witness into its schedule, we figure that if

7 we go with the 30-day delay, being the minimum delay, the witness could

8 testify as early as 23 May, which would then trigger a filing schedule,

9 the Prosecution being first 20 days later, 21 days later, 13th of June.

10 Followed by Defence submission also 21 days later on the 4th of July. And

11 ending with a Prosecution response 14 days later on the 18th of July. And

12 by that -- by then the Trial Chamber would have, or would be in possession

13 of everything and be able to render a decision on the admissibility of the

14 intercept evidence.

15 Of course, these are just proposed dates and we stand at the -- we

16 will go along with whatever the Trial Chamber in terms of dates. Those

17 are the ones that would fit both the Prosecution and the defence. Thank

18 you, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE KWON: Would there be any problem if we have Prosecution

20 submission before we hear the expert -- Defence expert?

21 MR. BOURGON: No problem with us. I think my colleague will

22 disagree with that, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: The Prosecution have asked for four weeks'

24 extension.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: We would -- it obviously would be best for us to

Page 9473

1 incorporate a response to the expert. I don't want to be overconfident on

2 this point, but it's not -- may not be absolutely necessary and it could

3 be a chapter that we -- that we throw in afterward. That's the one --

4 that -- that brings up the one complicated issue, is after their expert

5 are you going to want to hear from anyone else on this topic. You may. I

6 don't know, and given the creativity of this, I don't know if the Defence

7 would object to that, but we may -- we may feel the need to call an expert

8 on that point, though you've heard a number of people in the electronic

9 field that have talked about this issue basically. We haven't gone into

10 the real nuts and electronic bolts of it, but whether we'll need to or

11 not, I don't -- I don't know. We haven't seen what the person has had to

12 say.

13 So that's the only complicated and part and as long as we're --

14 there's some flexibility to allow us to call someone, if necessary, that

15 that's the only complication I foresee. And we're ready to argue this

16 thing at any time.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But in the meantime, let me think aloud for a

18 moment. Of course there will be consultations. I'm just pointing out to

19 you that if we extend your -- the time limit as per your motion, that

20 would have it extended to the 29th of April, 29th of April. Which would

21 be six days, roughly a week, after the conclusion or the availability of

22 the -- of the expert report. We could -- I -- as I understand, and I

23 fully agree with what Judge Kwon stated. The one-month extension can

24 always remain there fully, with a full understanding that if the expert

25 report raises new issues, you can come back with further submissions in

Page 9474

1 due course, in which case the Defence time limit for the filing of their

2 response will shift forward accordingly.

3 This is also another possibility, but I need to consult with my

4 colleagues.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, Mr. McCloskey, we had come prepared,

7 actually, to make an oral ruling on the order -- or on the Prosecution

8 motion today. And in a way we are grateful to both of you, as I said, for

9 having pursued this matter to put us in time, give us the information in

10 time before we can hand our decision.

11 We are making a suggestion, and we invite feedback from you. We

12 would like to know exactly what you think about our proposition. Our

13 proposition is that we will extend the time limit requested by the

14 Prosecution, that is, extending it by a month, and that in other words,

15 will extend to go right to the 29th of April.

16 In your submissions you will address only what we've heard so

17 far. You will not address the issues which will have been raised in the

18 meantime in the report of the -- of the expert. Now, we'll hear the

19 expert sometime around the 23rd of May, as suggested by Mr. Bourgon.

20 After the end of the testimony -- of the expert witness's testimony, you

21 will have two weeks within which to file your response to the

22 Prosecution's submissions. I'm saying "you," Mr. Bourgon, it means all

23 the others, obviously. In the meantime you would have certainly worked on

24 the other aspects involved because you would have received the

25 Prosecution's submissions well ahead in time.

Page 9475

1 After the filing of your submissions, then the Prosecution will

2 have another fortnight, another two weeks within which to file its

3 response, which would of course supposedly cover also, cover also the

4 issues that arise in the wake of the expert witness's testimony.

5 I think, since Mr. Bourgon needs to consult with his colleagues

6 and I suppose you also need some time to think about it, we will postpone

7 our decision until after the first break. In the meantime, if necessary,

8 you can talk. But we are -- it's a proposition that we are making. We

9 would be very much prepared -- we have flexibility -- we would be very

10 much prepared to hear any further submissions that you may wish to make.

11 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

12 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Indeed, I would ask for a

13 short delay at least until the next break to discuss with my colleagues to

14 get the Defence -- the position of all Defence teams. However there is

15 one issue I would like to raise at this time, further to what my colleague

16 from the Prosecution mention about the possibility for them to call

17 someone else later.

18 Now, Mr. McCloskey, has said that this course, what we are

19 embarking on now is of course a creative proposal, and the Trial Chamber

20 said yesterday that of course it could not do that unless the Defence

21 was -- voluntarily suggested such an approach. Now, in our view we are

22 willing to put a Defence earlier in time, that is, not wait until the

23 Prosecution has ended its case. However, with respect to intercept, it is

24 our understanding that the Prosecution has finished leading evidence

25 towards admissibility of the intercepts. Because if we're going to do

Page 9476

1 this only to be finding ourselves facing another Prosecution expert, then

2 we would prefer simply to wait for the Defence case. So I would just like

3 to make that clear that if we do such a proposal, to make it easier for

4 the Trial Chamber and easier for all parties that this will be the final

5 matter with respect to admissibility of intercepts. Thank you,

6 Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Bourgon, for having raised

8 that matter.

9 Mr. McCloskey, perhaps you would like to address this.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. If -- if a technical expert

11 testifies that this cannot be done technically, I don't -- you know, it's

12 hard to anticipate, but having heard from the Muslim experts in this, and

13 everything else, the Prosecution may not feel the need to rebut that,

14 frankly. Because it's, in our view, pretty absurd Defence. But if the

15 Court may not agree with my view of that, it may want to hear something,

16 and perhaps we will need, feel the need that something needs to be

17 rebutted, just as if they'd put that person on in their case, we would be

18 allowed to rebut it. It's hard to imagine that we'll need to do that,

19 frankly, between cross-examination and the evidence that you heard, but it

20 may be something that we would like to do and, in fact, the ultimate test

21 would be to get a series of experts and have them go to the machines and

22 go to the Republika Srpska and go to the mountain top and see if it could

23 be done. I don't think we'll ever need to do that. I don't think you'll

24 want us to do that, but it's --

25 I will not agree with this programme if there's a door -- if the

Page 9477

1 normal door to rebut is shut, and I don't anyone is suggesting that, but I

2 don't think it would be in our interest to go forward if the door is

3 shut -- the rebuttal door is shut. So that's -- that is my only -- my

4 only point. Also -- well, you'll be -- I'll...

5 JUDGE KWON: Can I ask a question to Mr. Bourgon. If we can hear

6 the Defence case earlier for our convenience, why would we not be able to

7 hear the Prosecution's rebuttal earlier as well? That way it is being

8 done in many civil law countries.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: We were about to do that --

10 JUDGE KWON: Along this --

11 MR. BOURGON: I will spare you what I think of certain judicial

12 systems in other countries. However, the idea is simply that we are

13 making this proposal to make it quicker and safer for all parties, and to

14 make it -- to have -- you know with the dates that we have proposed, it's

15 to make it that the rights of all parties in the courtroom are protected.

16 Of course if there is an issue of rebuttal, there can be rebuttal,

17 but at end of the case, because or else, if we do this now, then the

18 benefit that we are trying to achieve will be lost. That's the only

19 argument, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE KWON: For the record, I said on specific issues.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Rebuttal only on the matter of intercepts.

22 The other thing I want to mention is nothing is stopping you. I

23 mean we have opened the door already in a previous instance. There's

24 nothing stopping you from having your own expert present here in the room

25 assisting you when the Defence expert is testifying, and that's also a

Page 9478

1 matter to take into consideration. We have allowed it, I have allowed it

2 before in previous cases, and I would allow it again repeatedly, if

3 necessary, yeah, only if necessary.

4 But this is again a matter, et cetera. I would suggest that you

5 again have further consultations. If we are in a position, after the

6 first break, to come back with a concrete proposal or crystallise your

7 respective positions, that will help us go forward with our decision. If

8 not, we can even advance it till later, but we need to decide it tomorrow

9 at the latest, because the 29th March dead-line is with us. All right.

10 So that disposes of one of the preliminaries we had in mind to

11 deal with.

12 Now, Mr. McCloskey, yesterday, the 26th was yesterday, wasn't it.

13 Yes. Yesterday Madam Fauveau, on behalf of General Miletic filed her

14 response -- or their response to the Prosecution motion to amend the 65

15 ter list by adding three documents. But she basically objects to the

16 granting of the motion and further submits, without prejudice, that should

17 the motion be granted then she requires 30 days' time in which to be --

18 before being able -- before proceeding with her cross-examination.

19 There's one further matter that she raises, that one of the

20 documents that you seek to include in the 65 ter list has already been

21 introduced in the records by the Defence of General Gvero, and that is

22 that it bears Exhibit Number 6D30.

23 So we are inviting you to, if possible, if you are in a position

24 to do so, to respond to her response today. And also, incidentally, if

25 there are any other Defence teams that would like to formally object to

Page 9479

1 the Prosecution motion for the addition of those three documents to the 65

2 ter list, to speak now. The witness is soon coming to give testimony, and

3 we need to tell you what the position is.

4 Yes, Mr. Meek.

5 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Defence team for

6 Mr. Beara would join that motion in principle, certainly.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

8 Mr. Bourgon.

9 MR. BOURGON: Likewise for the team for Mr. Nikolic,

10 Mr. President.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Josse.

12 MR. JOSSE: Basically our position is the same, Your Honour. Of

13 course there are issues at stake here that fit in with the recent

14 certification request from all Defence teams in relation to this matter as

15 a point of general principle. And we would ask the Chamber to bear that

16 in mind. Also of course there is an additional exhibit on that list that

17 doesn't impact at all on Witness 49, but does, in fact, specifically on

18 our client in relation to Sir Rupert Smith.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Josse. Yes, Mr. McCloskey or

20 Mr. Thayer, I don't know who is going to address this. Mr. Thayer.

21 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if we may just briefly respond to

22 Madam Fauveau's filing, I think we might be able ultimately to save a

23 little bit of time.

24 The -- the only question we would have in response to Madam

25 Fauveau's filing is whether there is any basis put forward yet for that

Page 9480

1 length of delay that is requested in the motion. What we are talking

2 about are two very short, but important, videos, which as I stated before,

3 I think run to maximum of 15 minutes of playing time. We've provided the

4 transcripts, the times to the tenth of a second for each of these only

5 four clips, and it's just not clear to me why 30 days is now required to

6 delay the testimony of this witness. He's here, he's ready to testify,

7 he's been here for a few days, and we don't see any need, based on the

8 motion that was filed, for that amount of time.

9 With respect to the third document, that has been translated, it

10 was introduced through one of the Defence cases, it was not translated, it

11 has been translated and it will be distributed when I get back to my desk

12 this afternoon.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but I want to read you clear. Do you still

14 insist in seeking its addition to the -- to the 65 ter list once it's --

15 MR. THAYER: I think that's been --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: -- already in the in the --

17 MR. THAYER: That's been mooted, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The understanding is that if it is mooted, you would

19 still -- still since in the records that you would be able to make use of

20 it, just like any other party here in the course of the proceedings. All

21 right.

22 In relation to the objections, the intrinsic substance of the

23 objections of Madam Fauveau and the others as to the -- whether they

24 should be added to the 65 ter list or not, do you wish to state anything?

25 MR. THAYER: Nothing further beyond that those two videos, we

Page 9481

1 believe really will help the Court in its analysis of the testimony and

2 the evidence. The -- the videos do capture what we anticipate several

3 witnesses will testify to. And we believe that it is very compelling

4 evidence of the events on the ground in Zepa during this period of time

5 covered in the indictment.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. We'll come to that at

7 right moment, now that we are fully informed of your respective positions.

8 You will recall that on the 15th March the -- that we were -- we

9 received a motion from the Defence teams of Vujadin Popovic, Ljubisa

10 Beara, Drago Nikolic, Ljubomir Borovcanin, and Vinko Pandurevic, seeking

11 clarification of the Trial Chamber's decision regarding Prosecution Rule

12 94 bis notice which was handed down on the 6th of March of this year.

13 The joint motion requests the Trial Chamber to clarify whether its

14 6th March, 2007 decision regarding the Prosecution's Rule 94 bis notice

15 should be read as disposing of, "The notice on behalf of Vinko Pandurevic

16 and Drago Nikolic, pursuant to Rule 94 bis (B) filed on the 30th November

17 2006 or the addendum to Popovic Defence Rule 94 bis notice regarding

18 Prosecution expert witness Richard Butler, which was filed on the 16th of

19 January, 2007 regarding the ability of the proposed Prosecution witness

20 Richard Butler to testify as an expert or regarding the admissibility of

21 his reports."

22 We are deciding this issue orally now. It is the position of the

23 Trial Chamber that our 6th March 2007 decision regarding the Prosecution

24 Rule 94 bis notice should not be read as disposing of any challenge to the

25 ability of the proposed Prosecution witness, Richard Butler, to testify as

Page 9482

1 an expert or to any challenge to the admissibility of his reports raised

2 in the Pandurevic and Nikolic notice of 30th November 2006 or the Popovic

3 addendum of 16th January 2007.

4 I hope that clarifies the matter. In going it over, we didn't

5 really feel that it needed clarification, especially since we gave an

6 extension. But in any case, this is our final word on the matter, and we

7 are confirming that the doors are open, as per our 6th March decision.

8 Yes, I think we can bring in the witness now.

9 Mr. Ostojic, before he comes in, or by the -- while he is ushered

10 in, how much longer do you have?

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Approximately 45 minutes to an hour, Your Honour.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You have already been two hours 14 minutes,

14 Mr. Ostojic. And we have been dealing with some matters repetitively, and

15 it's our hope that you will try to avoid repetition of that today.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: We will, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: With your cooperation.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Of course.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And when you want to be cooperative, you always are.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I think.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So, but try to keep it --

22 MR. OSTOJIC: I will.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: -- as short as possible, please.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: I will.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 9483

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. You are still testifying pursuant to

4 the solemn declaration that you made on the first day of your testimony

5 that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

6 Mr. Ostojic is going to continue and finish with his cross-examination.

7 And then he will be followed by others.

8 Mr. Ostojic.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-161 [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]

13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. Sir, yesterday we left off discussing your first purported contact

16 and conversation with Mr. Beara, and you had claimed that at that time he

17 had inquired about the machines and the possibility of burying the dead in

18 the Milici municipality. Am I correct, sir, that based on the testimony

19 you gave on Friday, that it was you, sir, who deterred him or stopped him

20 from going to the Milici municipality? When I say on Friday, that was the

21 23rd of March, page 16, lines 8 through 11, Your Honours.

22 A. This is what happened, but I'm not sure that I was the one who

23 stopped Colonel from doing that.

24 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned the gentleman also last Friday,

25 Mr. Rajko Dukic who -- and can you just tell us briefly what his role was

Page 9484

1 in the municipality of Milici in 1995? And it's the same cite, it's on

2 page 16, line 16, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE KWON: Page 16, is it correct?

4 MR. OSTOJIC: It is, because we're still using -- I didn't get a

5 copy of the corrected transcript, and last Friday we had a problem, so

6 they started from page 1 of Friday.

7 JUDGE KWON: Page 1 starts from -- with this witness's evidence.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: That's correct, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I now understand. Thank you.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll repeat the question.

11 Q. Can you tell me, sir, who Mr. Rajko Dukic, what role he played in

12 the Milici municipality in 1995?

13 A. I don't know exactly what he did, but at the time in Milici, as

14 today, Rajko Dukic is everything.

15 Q. Okay. Now, we also heard evidence yesterday that there's a mine

16 in Milici. Do you know the name of that mine company in Milici?

17 A. A bauxite mine?

18 Q. Well, that mine in Milici, am I correct, sir, that that was a mine

19 that was the best-equipped company, as far as machinery and excavators

20 would be in all of north eastern Bosnia at that time?

21 A. I believe you're right, sir.

22 Q. And, sir, is it illogical and unbelievable that someone would ask

23 you for machines if, in fact, they were going to bury people in the Milici

24 municipality at that time? Isn't that illogical?

25 A. Whether it is illogical or logical, I don't know. In any case,

Page 9485

1 Colonel Beara mentioned this to me. I told him that we did not have

2 machinery for such jobs, that we had a small SKIP and two lorries.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. And that it would not be logical for us to go to a different

5 municipality and do what he was asking me to do.

6 Q. Three years ago when you testified in the Blagojevic case, another

7 Defence counsel asked that very question, sir, (redacted)

8 (redacted) and he asked you if it was illogical

9 for someone to be asking you for machines if they were going to bury

10 people in the -- where the mine which had better equipment, and you

11 answered yes, in the affirmative, and today you don't know if that's

12 illogical? Can you just reconcile that for us?

13 A. It's not logical. Of course it's not logical to go and look for

14 machinery, knowing that there were machines up there. I don't know

15 whether the Colonel knew about my machinery or not until the moment I told

16 him what I had.

17 Q. And it was because the machinery and equipment belonging to the

18 mine was superior to that what was at your disposal. Isn't that true?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, let's turn to the second conversation that you purportedly

21 had with Mr. Beara, which was approximately one or 2.00, I think that you

22 stated. Sir, at that time you said that you went with a military

23 policeman and took a ride to look for the burial site, correct?

24 A. I couldn't say that we went to look for a place. I went with the

25 policeman with the intention for them showing me where the place was.

Page 9486

1 Q. I thought you told us the other day and Friday that the military

2 policeman that you went with was not from Bratunac, correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And I -- how long was the car ride that you were with this

5 military policeman who you don't know his name, how long were you in the

6 car with him?

7 A. From Bratunac to Glogova it takes anything between five and 10

8 minutes. Five at the most, not longer. It depends on the driver.

9 Q. Okay. And he was driving or you were driving?

10 A. He was driving.

11 Q. Did you -- during that five or 10-minute drive, did you ever have

12 any conversation with this military policeman?

13 A. I don't remember. We must have exchanged a few words, but I don't

14 know what about.

15 Q. I would think so as well. At any time did you try to obtain his

16 name, sir, while you were in the car with him alone?

17 A. No, I didn't.

18 Q. Now, at any time during that five or 10-minute car ride, did this

19 person who was not from Bratunac seem to you to know where he was going,

20 not having been from the area, or did you, sir, direct him as to where he

21 should go?

22 A. He was driving. I did not have to tell him where to go.

23 Q. When you came to this site, Glogova, did you get out of the car at

24 all?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9487

1 Q. And what did you do, sir, when you left the car with this military

2 police officer at Glogova?

3 A. First he turned the car around. Then we got out of the car and

4 then he pointed his finger towards a place and he told me, "This is where

5 you're going to dig a pit."

6 Q. And what time of day was it, sir?

7 A. It was during the night.

8 Q. Okay. But what time approximately?

9 A. It was after one.

10 Q. Now, tell me, sir, what you did, if anything, after he pointed to

11 the area where you should dig a pit?

12 A. When? What do you mean? You mean at that moment or...

13 Q. Exactly at that moment, sir.

14 A. Nothing. We returned.

15 Q. Okay. At that time, sir, were you ever at the area of Glogova

16 where the pit was ultimately buried [sic] by you and your men? Were you

17 ever there prior to that day?

18 A. I must have used that road before the new road was built, I

19 suppose.

20 Q. Okay. Well, when was the new road built?

21 A. It was in the 1970s when it was opened for traffic.

22 Q. Fair enough. Sir, I suggest to you that it's illogical and

23 unbelievable that you would go with a military policeman whose name you

24 claim you don't know, who you never saw before in Bratunac, who was not

25 from the Bratunac area and that he would take you to an area five to 10

Page 9488

1 minutes outside of Bratunac in order to select a pit to bury the dead, and

2 I think, sir, it was you who actually took the military police officer if

3 it happened at all the way you suggested it did. What would you say to

4 that?

5 A. Let me tell you, I have met with more than 500 people over a

6 period of three to four years. I worked with them, they never asked me

7 what my name was, I never asked them what their name was.

8 Q. Okay. Let me ask you then to narrow it down. Don't you find it

9 somewhat illogical that was the military police officer who you didn't

10 recognise from Bratunac where you testified as to your background in that

11 town, that he would be taking you as opposed to you taking him to where

12 this purported pit would be dug?

13 A. I don't know what would make it more logical. I was not in

14 charge. I did not want to do that. I could not choose the localities for

15 burials. Maybe that policeman had been taken there before he took me

16 there. I've told you, I did not choose the place, nor would I have done

17 it, in any case.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Sir, I'd forgot to ask you in the beginning,

19 did you discuss your testimony with anyone since you concluded it

20 yesterday afternoon? Whether it be a little bit or extensively, with

21 anyone at all?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you for that. Sir, I want to move to another topic. And it

24 relates to the information you claim you had about people detained in the

25 soccer field. Now, in your interview with Mr. Ruez on the 13th of

Page 9489

1 October, 2000, you stated on page 23, line 7 through 14, that you, "Had no

2 information about people detained in the soccer field on July 12th, 1995

3 in Bratunac." Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And under oath here today you still stand by that, correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You also told Mr. Ruez on the 13th of October, 2000, same

8 reference, page and line, that there was no army present that night

9 whatsoever. Is that still correct today, sir?

10 A. From what I saw, when I was in front of the municipality building,

11 there were military -- there were civilian policemen, and no army. There

12 could have been troops, but not where I was.

13 Q. And also, sir, is it correct that you told Mr. Ruez, 13th of

14 October 2000, that you had no specific recollection of the situation in

15 Bratunac the night of the 13th of July, 1995?

16 And the reference for that for my colleague is page 26, lines 11

17 through 13?

18 Isn't that what you told Mr. Ruez?

19 A. If this is what it says, I must have said it.

20 Q. Well --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it would be easier if you showed him the

22 paragraph and you then, instead of putting the question, you put it -- you

23 ask him whether he confirms having said that.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: Just in the interests of time we were trying to

25 short circuit it, Your Honour.

Page 9490

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Also, I think we need to take into account, for

2 clarification, the witness, what he's previously testified about the

3 dates, and how the dates he gave Mr. Ruez were not correct. So...


5 Q. Sir, on page 26, lines 11 through 13, Mr. Ruez on the 13th of

6 October, 2000, asked you the following question, "Do you have specific

7 recollection of the situation in Bratunac that night of 13 the of July?"

8 And your answer sir was, "No."

9 Do you remember giving him that statement?

10 A. Yes, I said that.

11 Q. Do you still, sir, today, under oath stand by that statement?

12 A. I probably said this, but I believe that this is the fifth time

13 that I am saying to you that the dates that I offered during the interview

14 in Banja Luka are not correct. It is obvious I made a lot of mistakes in

15 the dates that I mentioned in that statement. So please don't dwell upon

16 those dates that I offered in Banja Luka. I've already admitted my

17 mistake and I've already apologised for that mistake several times over.

18 Q. Okay. Well, help me clarify it then. Instead of using dates,

19 let's take these time-lines that we've established in this case, although

20 perhaps still debated between the parties.

21 Did you have no specific recollection of the situation in Bratunac

22 before or after the fall of the Srebrenica enclave, or both?

23 A. I don't know what you mean. What situation in Bratunac before the

24 fall or after the fall of Srebrenica? I'm not clear what you're asking

25 me.

Page 9491

1 Q. Thank you, and I'll try to clarify it. You had told Mr. Ruez that

2 you had no specific recollection of the situation in Bratunac. What

3 period of time were you talking about, sir? Although he mentions a date,

4 you were uncertain about the dates. Help me understand, when you told Mr.

5 Ruez you had no specific recollection of the situation in Bratunac, what

6 period of time were you thinking about? Wherein you had no specific

7 recollection.

8 A. I can't remember. [French on English channel].

9 MR. OSTOJIC: I think I was...

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are being educated in French. So I think we

11 need -- shall we try again and we will see what is the situation. Because

12 I can only hear myself at the moment.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll put the question to the witness, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's okay now because otherwise we would

15 have -- yeah.


17 Q. Sir, the interpreters did not get all of your answer to my

18 question. You started to say, "I can't remember." And I just want to.

19 What else did you say, if you know?

20 A. Well, I said I couldn't remember, and I don't know which period I

21 was talking about. I don't know which dates I mentioned to Mr. Ruez.

22 Q. Okay. Help me with this: During the critical period immediately

23 after the fall of the Srebrenica enclave, including the time that you

24 witnessed the incident at Kravica, did you at any time see any personnel

25 from the Bratunac Brigade in Bratunac?

Page 9492

1 A. When I saw the excessive behaviour in Kravica, you want to know

2 whether I saw member of the Bratunac Brigade in Bratunac, that's your

3 question, is it?

4 Q. Not quite, but I will accept that if you want to answer that for

5 me. But let me restate the question, if I may. I don't know why if we're

6 having so much trouble, and it's my fault, I'm sure.

7 Sir, in Bratunac 1995 July, all I'm using is the milestones of

8 actual facts that have been established with the fall of Srebrenica, the

9 incident at Kravica, did you at that time, sir, notice any military

10 personnel from the Bratunac Brigade in Bratunac?

11 A. When I saw those killings in Kravica I wasn't in Bratunac, and I

12 couldn't see members of the Bratunac Brigade then.

13 Q. Fair enough. Did you ever go back to Bratunac after you saw that

14 incident?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

17 A. But after a certain period of time.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Any members of the Bratunac

19 Brigade in Bratunac?

20 A. I can't remember. And as far as I know, those soldiers from the

21 Bratunac Brigade were at the positions.

22 Q. And those were at the positions outside of Bratunac, correct?

23 Meaning out the municipality of Bratunac?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Sir, let's --

Page 9493

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In the interests of time, let me move on to another topic. You

3 had mentioned some buses in front of the municipality building that you

4 saw in July of 1995. Do you generally remember testifying about that in

5 the other case and in your interview with Mr. Ruez?

6 Your Honour, I'm being informed that he did not receive any

7 translation to the question.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I will repeat the question slowly. Are you

9 receiving interpretation of what I am saying now, Witness?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So I am going to read out the question that

12 Mr. Ostojic put to you a few seconds ago. And then you please try to

13 answer it.

14 Let us move on to another topic. "You had mentioned some buses in

15 front of the municipality building that you saw in July of 1995. Do you

16 remember generally remember testifying about that in the other case and

17 during your interview with Mr. Ruez?"

18 Let's start with the interview with Mr. Ruez. Do you remember

19 mentioning that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And in your previous testimony, do you remember

22 referring to this event?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so too.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So he's back to you, Mr. Ostojic.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

Page 9494

1 Q. Can you tell this Court, sir, what you saw in connection with

2 these buses in front of the municipal building in Bratunac in July 1995.

3 Tell me how many buses you saw?

4 A. At that time I was with Mr. Srbislav Davidovic who, at the time

5 was the president of the Executive Board of the municipal assembly of

6 Bratunac. I was in his office. We heard the engines of vehicles. When

7 we went out of the building we saw three buses at the very entrance to the

8 municipality building. They were full of people. I can't remember

9 whether there was one or two policemen in uniforms, civilian policemen.

10 Some people were asking for water, and since my office is some 20

11 or 30 metres from the municipality building, I had some canisters for

12 water, five and 10-litre canisters. So I went to fetch some water, and

13 the president of the Executive Board, Mr. Srbislav Davidovic, and I poured

14 water in the municipality building into the canisters and gave this water

15 to the people in the buses.

16 Q. And when did this happen, sir? And if you don't know the date,

17 use a time-frame.

18 A. In the evening hours. In the evening hours. It was one day

19 before I saw the incident in Kravica.

20 Q. So was that the same day or a day after you had this purported

21 meeting with Mr. Beara?

22 A. A day before.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: If I could just go into private session to give a

25 page reference and then we could jump right back into open session.

Page 9495

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go to private session for a while, please.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]


12 Q. Now, sir, approximately three years ago when you gave testimony

13 under oath in another case you had referenced these same buses and this

14 purported meeting with Mr. Beara, and you said at that time, sir, that

15 you're not sure, but you think it was that night when you had the meeting

16 with Mr. Beara. Can you reconcile for me, sir, how three years ago you

17 were not sure, but today you seem to think that the chronology is that you

18 saw those buses the day before?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. In this --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: In this, on line -- on the line he gave us, the

22 witness said he didn't know. So I don't know, he may have said I'm not

23 sure as well somewhere, but apparently he didn't know.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: On the very next line, on the very next page, the

25 question is, "Could you tell us whether that was before or after the night

Page 9496

1 when you had your meeting with Colonel Beara." The answer was, "I'm not

2 sure, but I think that it was that night when I had the meeting." And it

3 is specifically page seven -- I gave it to him already.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: In either case it's -- the way he has worded the

6 question is not fair.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, Your Honour, I think the question, if I may

8 reply.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Before I confer with my colleagues, actually he did

10 premise his question on exactly the way his previous reply to Mr. Ruez

11 or -- sorry, to his previous reply in his testimony reads, at least as has

12 been read by Mr. Ostojic, and the question is can you reconcile to me how

13 three years ago you were not sure but today you seem to think that the

14 chronology is that you saw those buses the day before.

15 Do you have an explanation to this or for this?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when testifying in the

17 Blagojevic case, if I had been certain, I would have said it was that

18 evening, before or after the meeting with Colonel Beara, I wouldn't have

19 said I'm not certain. So I said it was that evening when I analysed

20 everything and prepared myself for this testimony, I came to the

21 conclusion, and realised that it was that day -- or rather, the evening

22 before.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may proceed, Your Honour.



Page 9497

1 Q. Sir, let me ask you this question: Do you remember about the time

2 in 1999 or 2000, when newspapers were giving out articles spreading

3 rumours about Mr. Beara and his purported involvement relating to

4 Srebrenica? Do you recall that at all?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. Do you remember at all discussing those newspapers with

7 Mr. Ruez on October 13th, 2000?

8 A. I don't know how it was that I mentioned General Beara. He asked

9 me how do you know he's a General? I said I thought that I had read about

10 that somewhere or had seen something to that effect on television. That

11 was our discussion about the newspapers and about television.

12 Q. And do you believe, sir, as you sit here that that was your entire

13 discussion about the newspapers and that was -- came from you about what

14 you may have seen on television relating to Mr. Beara's rank? Is that

15 what you remember?

16 A. Well, just a minute ago I told you what I told Mr. Ruez.

17 Q. Okay. Well, on page 32 of your interview with Mr. Ruez,

18 commencing -- actually, on page 31, I'm sorry, Your Honour. It's page

19 31. It's a long-winded question that was starting on line 18 through 26.

20 And then proceeding on page 32 of that same interview, line 1 through

21 6: "Do you remember Mr. Ruez talking to you about the activities on

22 Glogova site, between the 14th and 19th of July, 1995," and then he tells

23 you on line 5 of page 32, "Because I had also -- then talking about

24 Colonel Beara, he's in all the newspapers."

25 Do you remember discussing that with him?

Page 9498

1 A. I don't remember that.

2 Q. Obviously you wouldn't then remember your answer. Here is what

3 your answer was, sir, to that discussion, and if the Court wishes, I could

4 read the entire page or so of the question that Mr. Ruez put to the

5 witness.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest you first ask him whether he thinks if you

7 read out his -- this to him, it would -- could refresh his memory.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.

9 Q. Sir, would -- if I were to read out your answer to the discussion

10 you had with Mr. Ruez, would that help you remember that discussion at

11 all? Would it refresh your recollection?

12 A. Probably.

13 Q. Okay. And I jumped the gun, but I'll read it. I think my learned

14 friend probably wants me to read the whole thing and if the Court will --

15 it starts on page 31, line 18. Mr. Ruez says as follows, sir: "I must

16 inform -- I must just also inform you that until now we are talking about

17 the bodies --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please slow down for the

19 interpreters. Thank you.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: I will.

21 Q. "I must just also inform you that until now we are talking about

22 the bodies alongside of the road. So, bodies that the people who have

23 little knowledge about the situation in this area could believe are combat

24 casualties. When I talk about the bodies found, I mean killed inside the

25 warehouse marked with D on the sketch. We are talking already about a

Page 9499

1 massive war crime. I noted that you were throwing a doubt on the

2 existence of these events. You said if ever people have been killed

3 inside. If you can tell you for sure yes -- " I'm sorry -- "I can tell

4 you for sure yes, bodies have been killed. People have been killed

5 inside, and I even add that we are currently digging out these bodies from

6 the Glogova site that you guys dug in. When I disclose you the

7 information that we have a document from military police of the Bratunac

8 Brigade securing your personnel on that site on the 19th, only someone who

9 knows nothing about the Bratunac Brigade in Bratunac town would not know

10 that we are talking about people under the command of Momir Nikolic. So,

11 I'm going to ask you again, what do you know about the activities on

12 Glogova site between the 14th and the 19th July, 1995? Because I had also

13 then talking about Colonel Beara. He's in all the newspapers."

14 Your answer which appears on page 32, line 7 through 10, is as

15 follows: "I'm trying to recall what was happening between the 14th and

16 the 19th, but I fail. Actually, I cannot conceive that my people actually

17 working there for eight days, because it sounds very long for me. Maybe

18 the operator on the machinery was there, but as for the others, I can't

19 imagine that they were there."

20 Do you remember giving that testimony, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Am I correct that at that time, when Mr. Ruez was interviewing

23 you, there were rumours in the newspapers about Mr. Beara and you and

24 Mr. Ruez actually discussed those newspaper articles?

25 A. I don't remember having discussed those articles with Mr. Ruez.

Page 9500

1 Q. Sir, let me turn to another subject that you touched upon in your

2 testimony last Friday, and it's on page 10 of the old transcript, lines 4

3 through 7. When you had this purported first -- or your prior contact

4 with Mr. Beara. We know that you've established when you claim you had

5 first met him in the SDS offices that evening that you've already

6 testified to.

7 Sir, isn't it true, though, that to Mr. Ruez when you were asked

8 if you had ever seen Mr. Beara prior to that contact purportedly in the

9 SDS offices, that you told him that you had seen him that year, not a day

10 or two earlier, but simply that year? Isn't that true? Do you remember

11 telling him that?

12 A. I don't remember telling him that.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. That I know that I saw Colonel Beara two or three days prior to

15 our meeting. I think it was then one day later. We met on two or three

16 occasions.

17 Q. We heard your testimony on when you claimed you saw him after your

18 contact with him. On page 9, sir, of your October 13th, 2000 interview,

19 the question on line 8 and 9 was as follows, and they're talking

20 immediately prior to that about Mr. Beara. It says, "Do you remember when

21 you saw him, meaning Mr. Beara, in Bratunac or Bratunac area for the first

22 time? Was it that year?"

23 Your answer, which commences immediately after that on page 9,

24 lines 10 through 12, is as follows: "So I think that I saw him first time

25 that year. Whether he was coming or not prior to that, I wouldn't know,

Page 9501

1 because I hadn't had any kind of dealings with the army, you know, except

2 in extreme cases like the one in question."

3 Do you remember telling Mr. Ruez that in October 2000, sir?

4 A. Well, if I said that, I think it was connected to those events,

5 not to the beginning of the year. So then it would seem as if it was a

6 long time ago. Those were the days that I had in mind, though.

7 Q. Okay. Help me understand this, sir: Do you know why would

8 purportedly a military officer from the Main Staff request a meeting with

9 a civilian such as yourself, to be held in a politician's offices such as

10 Mr. Deronjic's in July of 1995?

11 A. Why they requested this in 1992, that's what I'm asking you now.

12 Q. I think that, sir, is a question that I'm not allowed to answer,

13 but I think with other witnesses that will come through.

14 Don't you find it quite illogical, sir, that a military officer

15 would call you, a civilian, who wasn't even in the civilian protection

16 defence, such as Mr. Ilic that we talked about, to inquire of you of any

17 machines or of anything whatsoever? Don't you find that illogical?

18 A. Doesn't seem to be so to me, because until duties were transferred

19 to Ljupko Ilic, I worked throughout the wartime period, and I knew all the

20 officers, I would receive orders from officers, from 1992 and onwards.

21 Q. Let me see, if I may with the Court's permission, 65 ter number

22 1553, please. I think that was the document that was shown to you by my

23 learned friend. And there's too one that the witness I believe marked,

24 but we can have a clean copy. And it has a P number, if that will help.

25 If we could just enlarge it a bit.

Page 9502

1 Sir, that's a picture that you were asked questions about last

2 Friday. Can you point to the Court where the Bratunac military barracks

3 was in July of 1995 or I should say their headquarters.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: You've got to blow it up for that question to be

6 fair -- I mean, shrink it down.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, would you like me to blow it up or shrink it

8 down or keep it the same, maybe?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think if it is blown up a little bit it will be

10 better. As it is, it may be difficult for the witness.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: If he knows, Your Honour. That's all.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's got to be blown up.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. I didn't understand --

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's got to be made bigger.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have had other photos of the same town,

16 concentrating on a particular section of the town where it would be more

17 easy for the witness to identify. I don't know, but let's -- let's -- I

18 cannot indicate myself which part to blow up. So -- because that would be

19 involving myself in what I shouldn't be involving myself in.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: I understand, and we could -- I have just one final

21 question for him. It's okay. We'll get it with the other witness, Your

22 Honour. We understand the Prosecution --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I definitely think it -- do you think -- Witness, do

24 you think you can identify the Bratunac military barracks or the

25 headquarters on this map?

Page 9503

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The command was in the Kaolin

2 factory in one of the barracks. Where volunteers were billeted was in the

3 old construction school behind the Vuk Karadzic School.


5 Q. And that's where you've placed a little marking there on that

6 document, correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's marked the old school, but if he's going to

9 be shown a photograph of the Kaolin -- or the Bratunac Brigade, I think

10 it's only fair that the brigade be in that photograph. It's not currently

11 in this photograph, I can tell you that.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, if I could just briefly reply. That's

13 why I thought we had an understanding we're not going to show witnesses

14 pictures with pre-marked areas such as the one that was shown, although it

15 didn't really matter in that case, but we were just asking him if he could

16 identify it and if he couldn't, we would move on; if he did, as he did, he

17 shows it, it's not acceptable for some reason to the Prosecutor. I'm not

18 sure why.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we are making a storm in a teacup. The

20 suggestion of Mr. McCloskey was not to show him a marked photograph but to

21 just show him a photo and ask him whether he recognises and then move from

22 there, because with this map as it is, one can easily get confused. I

23 mean, we've been to Bratunac, all of us, and if you asked me to mark it, I

24 would find it very difficult. And we have seen the space as well. So...

25 MR. OSTOJIC: It goes to two things, Your Honour. One, this

Page 9504

1 person obviously being from the area and being intimately involved, and

2 secondly, on the credibility of the witness's testimony here where he

3 identifies certain things, can have some impact. But if that -- if the

4 Court wants a bigger picture, we would then move on to another --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's -- yes.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we proceed any further, I mean I believe

8 we've heard you well. You are suggesting, Mr. McCloskey, that the witness

9 is being shown a photo and being asked to indicate on that photo a

10 particular building or complex of buildings, when you know that that

11 complex of buildings does not show in this -- does not appear in this

12 photo, is that your submission?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Then our position is that you should never show a

15 witness a map or a diagram -- or a photo like this asking him to point on

16 it the place that you are suggesting to him, if that place does not exist

17 on that map or on that photo.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, it actually does exist --

19 MR. OSTOJIC: I don't know if that's fair, Your Honour.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: It does exist on this exhibit, but the way the

21 thing is zeroed in on it now doesn't show it exists. And I -- you know...

22 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean by that?

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we ask the witness to take off his

24 earphones --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I see.

Page 9505

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- just so I don't --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't exist in what we are looking at on the

3 monitor, in other words?


5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. It exists on the document but not on what we

6 are -- okay. So I take that back, but we'll have a break. We need to

7 zoom out, then in a way -- or then focus on the area. Please liaise with

8 Mr. McCloskey and decide which part of the photo to be shown to the

9 witness, because I don't want the witness to be shown a photo, at least as

10 it appears on the screen, asking him to mark a place that doesn't show on

11 the screen.

12 MR. OSTOJIC: It wasn't meant to be a trick question, Your Honour,

13 if --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not saying it was meant to be a trick question.

16 I'm saying that we wouldn't accept the situation where the witness is

17 supposed to look at this and mark us a place when we all know, you

18 included, that although the place exists in the photo in its whole size,

19 its entire size, it does not -- it is not included in what is appearing on

20 the monitor. So sort that out amongst yourselves. We will have a

21 25-minute break.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Please try to conclude your cross-examination the

Page 9506

1 earliest, please, Mr. Ostojic.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: I was trying -- yes, Mr. President. I was trying to

3 conclude it before the last break, and I will try to that as soon as

4 possible. Just to follow up, if I may, on this picture, we have with the

5 assistance of the Prosecution's case manager, we'd like to call -- or put

6 on the ELMO a document that's not marked but that the Court has in its

7 evidence, which is P02103 and it's page 272 of that book of pictures the

8 Court received earlier.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: And this in front of the Witness is a blank copy,

11 Mr. President, of that.

12 Q. Sir, I'm showing you a picture essentially of what purports to be

13 the Bratunac town, an aerial view. Can you, looking at that picture, and

14 you can look at it either directly or on the screen, tell us where the

15 Bratunac Brigade headquarters was?

16 A. This is the factory of the ceramic tiles, isn't it? Can I turn

17 this around, please?

18 Q. Okay. If I may interrupt, Mr. President, if he's having that much

19 trouble, we can move on or whatever the Court wishes. I don't want to

20 take up...

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I will ask him myself.

22 Witness, do you think you have found, identified where the

23 Bratunac Brigade headquarters were?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here. This is the factory of

25 ceramic tiles. And the command of the brigade was in its administrative

Page 9507

1 building.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: And with the Court's permission, if he can just mark

3 that exhibit where he believes that it is and that would be adequate with

4 that document.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: He can write BBH. BBH. No. On -- on the spot

6 where he said -- mark it with an X where he thinks that the Bratunac

7 Brigade headquarters were. He first needs to mark with an H [sic] and

8 then write BBH.

9 JUDGE KWON: Mark with an X.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think he's -- Witness, look at --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Can you bear

12 with me. [Marks]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And write BBH, please.

14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And the -- at some part, one of the

16 sides, if you could write PW-161, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] P...

18 JUDGE AGIUS: 161.

19 THE WITNESS: [Marks]. I'm not receiving interpretation.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: 161. Thank you.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you for your assistance.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


24 Q. Mr. Witness, thank you, and that's all we have --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, shall we forget the other photographs

Page 9508

1 where he put an X?

2 MR. OSTOJIC: No, because I have to just clean up something that

3 he said that wasn't captured in his testimony on page 37, line 16 through

4 58, and we believe or I believe that the witness used the word

5 "volunteers" and that's where he marked an X that there were volunteers

6 were in the old construction school behind the Vuk Karadzic School. And I

7 just want him to confirm that first, Your Honour, but that's what --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You put the question, or rather if he

9 has received interpretation, he can tell us. Is he on the video mode

10 where he can see the map, the photograph that we had before where he

11 marked the X? Yeah.

12 What does that X represent on that photo near -- you put an X in

13 red near a site where previously it stated it's the old school. What's

14 that X supposed to denote?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the old construction school

16 where volunteers were billeted, the troops that volunteered to come to

17 Bratunac but did not hail from Bratunac.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So could I ask you now, please, to put

19 P -- to write P --

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we need to forget about this. Upload

22 it again. He will put the X again in the same place and then we can...

23 Yeah.

24 Now I think he can put a PW-161 on it. And we'll save this one.

25 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

Page 9509

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, sir.


3 Q. And, sir, my last topic, if I may proceed --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You have been already -- when we started it was

5 three hours, five minutes.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: It's a very minor topic. It was in response to the

7 witness's answer on page 36, line 2, Your Honour. And I'm just following

8 up on that, if I may.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, but please conclude in the next five

10 minutes.

11 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll try.

12 Q. Sir, earlier today when I asked you the question of why would

13 purportedly a military officer from the Main Staff request a meeting with

14 a civilian such as yourself to be held in the political offices such as

15 Mr. Deronjic's in July of 1995, your answer that appears on page 36, line

16 2, was, "Why they requested this in 1992. That's what I'm asking you

17 now."

18 I just want to clarify to follow up on that, sir. Who do you mean

19 when you say, "Why they requested this in 1992." Who is the "they"?

20 A. I said already in 1992, and I meant the officers from whom I

21 received orders then, as well as in 1995, when it came to the burial of

22 those who had been killed.

23 Q. And tell me, which officers are you referring to, sir?

24 A. In 1992 the mass grave that was excavated below the Drina bridge,

25 some 1500 metres downstream of the Drina, it was an officer from Serbia,

Page 9510

1 from the OG Drina Gucevo. They called him Captain Dragan. He took me to

2 the spot, he told me where to dig. We went to the hangar, we saw the

3 bodies. He told me how to load them on to the vehicles, and from then on,

4 this continued.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

7 Who is next? Mr. Zivanovic.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: How many hours, Mr. Zivanovic?

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just for 10 minutes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You see, Mr. Ostojic, you should take

12 example from Mr. Zivanovic.

13 Go ahead, Mr. Zivanovic.

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. First of all, let me

17 ask you this: The circumstances which led to you appearing as a witness,

18 in other words, how did you come in contact with Mr. Ruez in 2002?

19 Actually, did you get a formal invitation?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That formal invitation was in Serbia, in the language that you

22 understand, I suppose. Can you remember whether in this letter, in this

23 invitation, it said that you were obliged, that you were duty-bound to

24 respond and there were some sanctions mentioned if you didn't?

25 A. I received this in an envelope and it was the chief of the public

Page 9511

1 security station in Bratunac who gave this envelope to me. It was

2 strictly confidential. I don't remember whether there was any threat.

3 The only thing that was stated was that they guaranteed my safety on the

4 journey from Bratunac to Banja Luka and back for the next five days, and

5 after that, they could not guarantee my safety. This is all.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: One small correction for the transcript. On page

7 44, line 24, here it says that the formal invitation was in Serbia, and my

8 colleague said in Serbian, in the language that understands.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Thank you.

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So how did you understand this, the five days that you were

12 guaranteed safety on the journey to Banja Luka and back? How did you

13 understand that?

14 A. I don't know how I understood it. I was afraid.

15 Q. Did you ask anybody to explain to you what this meant, that you

16 were guaranteed safety for five days and not after that? Did you ask what

17 this meant?

18 A. I suppose that during that period of time I was a witness and

19 after that I could have been a suspect or something to that effect.

20 Q. But in any case, you did not ask anybody to explain, to tell you

21 what this was all about?

22 A. It said strictly confidential. I didn't dare talk to anybody

23 about this.

24 Q. When you talked to Mr. Ruez, did he tell you that you were not

25 duty-bound to provide your statement?

Page 9512

1 A. I can't remember.

2 Q. Were you under the impression that you were obliged to provide

3 this statement?

4 A. Yes, that was my impression.

5 Q. And now I am going to ask you to explain one thing for me. We've

6 heard that refugees in Potocari were provided with water that was brought

7 in some cisterns. Do you maybe know whether such vehicles were borrowed

8 from your company?

9 A. I don't think that our vehicles were involved in that. I'm not

10 sure. In any case, nobody ever asked me to provide such vehicles for

11 bringing water to the refugees in Bratunac.

12 Q. Could this have been done without you knowing about this? We've

13 heard from some witnesses that you yourself mentioned that cisterns from

14 Bratunac were used, among others, to deliver water, drinking water, to the

15 refugees in Potocari?

16 A. This was not done with my approval. This cistern was in Kravici

17 [as interpreted], in Sandici, where there were the highest number of

18 people, Muslim refugees who were provided with water. I don't know

19 anything about Potocari.

20 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you another thing. To my learned friend

21 Ostojic's question, you said you saw three buses in front of the municipal

22 building on a day, and you can't recall the date. I have read your

23 previous testimony in the other case, which I'm not going to mention, but

24 you know what I'm referring to. And you said in that case that those

25 buses were loaded with children, women and elderly?

Page 9513

1 A. No. I saw women and children in the buses on the road from

2 Bratunac to Kravica and Konjevic Polje. What I saw in front of the

3 municipal building were buses with only men in them.

4 Q. Can you tell us why in the previous case you stated that those

5 were women, children and elderly men?

6 A. It was due to a confusion in my head.

7 Q. I beg your pardon?

8 A. I was confused. And I got confused on many things when I saw

9 buses driving from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje. I thought I'd seen them,

10 but, no, they were not there. The fact is that they were not there.

11 Q. But now you are clear on that, your head is clear?

12 A. Yes, my head is clear. The picture is absolutely clear.

13 Q. You have also told, before this Trial Chamber -- [In English]

14 [Previous translation continues] ... For a moment, please?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9514











11 Pages 9514-9518 redacted. Private session















Page 9519

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

Page 9520

1 Mr. Stojanovic, any time you need to go into private session,

2 please let us know. How long do you estimate your cross-examination to

3 last?

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe I'll need

5 between 40 and 50 minutes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Witness.

10 A. Good day.

11 Q. I'll put some questions to you in order to try and clarify some of

12 the dilemmas that appeared after your testimony on Friday and yesterday.

13 On Friday when testifying, you said that when passing through the village

14 of Kravica by the road Bratunac-Konjevic Polje, you saw the execution of

15 five men carried out by one man in a green camouflage uniform. Do you

16 remember that?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Can you tell us at what time in the afternoon it was on that day?

19 A. Well, it was summertime, but it was in the late afternoon hours.

20 Q. You also said that on that occasion you did not get out of the

21 vehicle. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now let's have a look at Exhibit P01564, a Prosecution Exhibit.

24 The ERN number is 0046-1251. And it's one of the photographs of the

25 Kravica warehouse. We've already seen it.

Page 9521

1 While waiting for it to appear on the screen, sir, if you look at

2 the monitor you will see the photograph of the Kravica warehouse and of

3 the road from Bratunac to Kravica and Konjevic Polje. Can you see it now?

4 A. Yes, I can.

5 Q. Could we agree that this is, in fact, the Kravica warehouse that

6 you mentioned?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could we agree that this is the road you used on that occasion in

9 the late afternoon?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. With the assistance of the usher, could we provide the

12 witness with a marker so that he can mark certain items.

13 Sir, could you please use the marker to mark the spot where you

14 saw the execution you mentioned. Mark it with a cross.

15 A. [Marks] It's just a little closer to this hangar, at edge of this

16 field.

17 Q. This can be erased, so please try to be a little more precise, if

18 possible. Thank you for your assistance.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you. And then you said that to the right of the site where

21 these men were executed, you saw a pile of bodies. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Please mark with a circle.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. The location in which you saw those bodies.

Page 9522

1 A. I've marked a spot on the grass again, but the bodies were between

2 the grass and the hangar, or rather they were on this asphalt surface.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, one moment. Before we proceed, because

4 otherwise it starts getting complicated then.

5 Now, Witness, to the left of that X can you write 5K, 5K.

6 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And to the right of the circle could you

8 please write BD.

9 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's for "bodies." All right.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance,

12 Your Honour.

13 Could we just erase this spot where the witness indicated that the

14 bodies were located, and could we give the witness the possibility of

15 marking the spot again? As just described by the witness.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. Because he said they were on the

17 asphalt surface. All right.

18 So, usher, help him please delete that circle from where it is, so

19 that he puts it again where he thinks it was, or it should be.

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. Sir, can you estimate how many bodies in total you saw there?

24 A. At the site I have marked with a spot, I saw five people being

25 killed by this man in camouflage uniform and at the other location there

Page 9523

1 was a pile of perhaps -- well, it's difficult to say whether there were 40

2 or 50 bodies there, but something like that. There were 40 or 50 bodies

3 at the most, no more.

4 Q. Thank you. Can you see in the photograph, in the central part of

5 the photograph, there is an open area?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. From the road were you perhaps able to see, in that part of the

8 complex, that there were detainees being held?

9 A. Well, I didn't see that. Either there weren't any there at the

10 moment when I was passing by, or I didn't notice. But I really wouldn't

11 know whether they weren't there or I simply didn't notice them.

12 Q. You mentioned on Friday the fact that you saw about 10 or 15 or

13 perhaps even 20 men in camouflage uniforms. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Could you mark the spot at which you saw these men in camouflage

16 uniforms? The spot that they were roughly present at.

17 A. Well, I'll mark the spot where there was this man killing these

18 five men. There were two or three here, there were some here. That's

19 where there was a group of soldiers, and around here the spot where this

20 man was killing the men.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to be specific. Can you put against -- or

22 to the left of the spots where you said you saw soldiers killing the men,

23 can you put -- write the letter S, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other dots that you put to the left of 5K,

Page 9524

1 is that also meant to indicate the presence of soldiers killing those five

2 men or not?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: What are those supposed to indicate?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The soldiers, but they didn't

6 participate in the killing of these five men whom I saw.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Then can you then write to the

8 left OT, meaning other soldiers. OS, not OT. OS, yes. Other soldiers.

9 To the left of --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In front of number 5.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: No, to the left of those dots.

12 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, correct. OS. Thank you.

14 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. I'm sorry to interrupt you like this, but I

15 think it makes things easier to follow later on.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance,

17 Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, let's conclude with this now. You marked the spots at

19 which the soldiers were, and they were right -- to the right of the X, and

20 these are the sites where people were executed but these soldiers are not

21 soldiers who participated in the execution. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that a group of 15, 20 or 15

24 or 20 men were wearing various times of uniforms?

25 A. As far as I could see at the time, they were all wearing green

Page 9525

1 camouflage uniforms.

2 Q. Could we agree that the distance between the road and the complex

3 itself, I'm referring to the road that you were on at the time, could we

4 agree that the distance between the road and the complex is at least 30

5 metres?

6 A. Something like that.

7 Q. Could we agree that this road is separate or separated from the

8 warehouse itself by a path, wire fence and an -- a car park, an asphalt

9 car park in front of the warehouse?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And this photo confirms that, doesn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will no longer

14 need this photo. Therefore, I would kindly ask the witness to put today's

15 date in the right lower corner. And today we are 27 March. And can he

16 also put his initials, PW-161.

17 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would also kindly

19 thank the usher. Later on we will need another document, and that's when

20 we will need her again.

21 Q. You stayed in front of the warehouse for just a short while, and

22 then you continued on your way to Konjevic Polje. Isn't that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Did you spend any time in Konjevic Polje?

25 A. Yes, I stayed there for a very short time.

Page 9526

1 Q. Did you see the check-point of the civilian police there, as you

2 call it?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. This may be an opportunity to skip a few events here, because you

5 mentioned the civilian police when you said that you saw them in front of

6 the buses. My question will be this: How do you know that those were

7 civilian policemen?

8 A. Because they wore blue uniforms. The classical blue uniforms

9 usually worn by those lads from Bratunac.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just, if we could clarify, is he talking about the

12 ones in front of the buses or the ones in Konjevic Polje? I don't think

13 it's clear from the question.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Which ones are you talking about, Mr. Stojanovic?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will

16 take it step by step.

17 Q. In Konjevic Polje you saw a check-point of the civilian police; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Those were policemen wearing blue, classical police uniforms from

21 Bratunac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you have also told us that you saw civilian policemen in front

24 of the buses in Bratunac when they had arrived bringing civilians?

25 A. Yes, on the evening before that. The evening before that there

Page 9527

1 were buses in front of the municipal building, there were three buses. I

2 and Davidovic were giving people water. I can't remember whether there

3 were one or two police officers there, there were civilian policemen

4 wearing blue uniforms, classical uniforms. And on the following day, not

5 only in Konjevic Polje, but also in -- near Glogova to Kravica and from

6 Kravica to Konjevic Polje, there were three or four police check-points.

7 Q. Thank you. Those were members of the police station in Bratunac,

8 weren't they?

9 A. Yes, I knew almost all of those lads.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure, but

11 now that I've mentioned the name on page 61, line 4, maybe this should be

12 redacted. Although it seems to me that this name has not been redacted in

13 the past, but I'm still -- I want to be certain.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can proceed. Thank you.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless someone disagrees, strongly disagrees with

17 this. Go ahead.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. On your way back from Konjevic Polje and Sandici, you saw a column

20 of vehicles by this special police. I am quoting from transcripts on

21 Friday, and this column was moving very fast past you so that you had to

22 stop?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. A civilian policeman told you that Zvornik was about to fall, and

25 that this special unit of the police was sent to defend Zvornik?

Page 9528

1 A. Yes, but before that I asked the policeman who those men were and

2 why they were in such a haste and then he said that the -- Zvornik was

3 about to fall and the special police had been sent to defend Zvornik.

4 Q. Will you agree with me that this was in the early evening hours of

5 that day?

6 A. Yes, as I was returning. This was at dusk.

7 Q. I suppose that on that occasion you saw the uniforms on the

8 members of the special police that were on their way to Zvornik?

9 A. They wore camouflage uniforms. Overalls, that is.

10 Q. The uniforms of the persons whom you saw in front of the warehouse

11 were green and not of the same colour as on the members of the special

12 police?

13 A. Those uniforms were dark green, and I don't know whether the

14 shirts were short-sleeved or whether their sleeves were rolled up. I

15 can't tell you at this moment.

16 Q. Had you previously seen patches of the special police brigade on

17 the sleeves of those uniforms?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The men whom you saw in front of the Kravica warehouse who

20 participated in the execution did not have any patches on his sleeves?

21 A. No. He did not even have the insignia of the army of Republika

22 Srpska. His sleeves were either rolled up or short. I can't tell you

23 which. In any case, the sleeves were short. And the colour of his

24 uniform was dark green.

25 Q. Let's try and clarify one thing for the transcript. Am I right in

Page 9529

1 saying that the policemen, i.e. the special police whom you saw in

2 uniforms on their way to Zvornik, were not dressed the same as the person

3 whom you saw participating in the execution in front of the warehouse. Am

4 I right in saying that?

5 A. Yes, you are. The uniforms were not the same.

6 Q. When you arrived in Bratunac, at one point that evening you met up

7 with Ljubomir Borovcanin?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in the transcript on Friday you say that he had been ordered

10 to go to Zvornik urgently and that you established a link between that and

11 the column of the special police that you had previously met. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You have also mentioned that one of the people who were present

15 there in your group had heard and had spoken about one of the Muslims

16 having grabbed a rifle from a policeman and killed him by firing a burst

17 into him and that another policeman grabbed the rifle barrel and burned

18 his arm. That's on page 3964 of transcript on Friday. Do you remember

19 that?

20 A. Yes, this was the case. This is what we discussed when we met up.

21 Q. You have also told us that you don't know where this incident

22 happened?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. You also don't know the names of the policeman who was killed and

25 the other one who was hurt?

Page 9530

1 A. That's correct. I don't know their names.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe this is a

3 good moment for us to see Exhibit Number P01892, which is in e-court. I

4 would like to call it up. This is a document which is in both English and

5 B/C/S, and this is an excerpt from the register of patients from the

6 Bratunac Brigade. Can we look at page 0179-3920? This is the ERN number

7 of the page. While we are waiting for the document to be shown, let me

8 just correct in transcript, this is an expert [as interpreted] from the

9 register of patients of the Bratunac hospital, rather than the Bratunac

10 Brigade, and I would like to correct that in the transcript. Thank you.

11 Can this be blown up in B/C/S, and can we also have the English

12 version on the screen at the same time? In English this is on page number

13 2. This can be found on e-court. If not, I have just been told that it

14 is on e-court, and I will kindly ask for the English version to be put on

15 the screen.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can find it ourselves in English. The

17 witness doesn't need to see it in English. So let's proceed with what we

18 have on the monitor. If everybody is in agreement, because...

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. Sir, let us look together. Column, or rather row 1490, which is

21 the second from the top, it says here that on the 13th of July, 1995, at

22 1740 [as interpreted], a patient by the name of Rade Cuturic, father's

23 name Milan, born on the 26th of August 1990 -- 1971 was admitted. He was

24 a member of the special brigade of the MUP. His wounds are registered in

25 the last column, it says here burns of inner side of the palms between the

Page 9531

1 second and the fourth digit of the left hand with lacerations and the

2 therapy is listed. Can you see all that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please look at row number 1491. It says that on the 13th of July,

5 1995, at either 1800 or 1900 hours, which is not very clear in the B/C/S

6 version, in the English it says that it was at 1800 hours, another person

7 was admitted. His name is Krsto Dragicevic, father's name Bogoljub. He

8 is from Skelani, a member of the special police unit, and it is stated

9 here that he was killed. The Latin diagnosis is in this line.

10 Can you see this, sir?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It is stated here that they were both wounded in Kravica. Can you

13 see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. My question is this: Judging by the chronology of the events and

16 the description of wounds, could these two persons be the ones that were

17 involved in the incident that you had heard about during your meeting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And finally, I would kindly ask you to look at 1489, the first

20 line from the top. It says here that on the 13th of July, 1995, at 1730,

21 Miroslav Stanovic was brought to the hospital. He is from Srebrenica, a

22 member of the Red Berets. He was wounded in Kravica. And it says under

23 the diagnosis that he was wounded in the left -- right lower arm, that he

24 has a gun-shot wound, and that it also has some wounds on the face and

25 that he was referred to the surgical department in Zvornik. Can you see

Page 9532

1 that?

2 A. Yes, I can.

3 Q. My question is this: Do you know who Miroslav Stanovic is?

4 A. I believe it says Miroslav.

5 Q. Okay. Miroslav.

6 A. I know several people by the name of Stanovic, but I don't know

7 Miroslav.

8 Q. Do you know that in 1995 the Bratunac Brigade had an intervention

9 unit that was referred to as the Red Berets?

10 A. Yes, I know that.

11 Q. Now I would kindly ask the usher to assist us and to put a

12 document on the ELMO a document. Your Honours, I apologise, this document

13 has still not been placed on e-court, but it has been submitted to our

14 learned friends from the Prosecution. This is page 11 of the magazine

15 called,"Policeman," published in August 1994.

16 An article was published in that issue and the title is, "Police

17 Officers With Office Titles."

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Published in 1994, I think that may be a mistake.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what it says, "Policeman" published in August

21 1994. If you show me the parts, I can -- yes, let's proceed. Thank you.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This was

23 published in August 1994, we can see it in the right bottom corner. This

24 the only thing that we were able to locate.

25 Q. And I will kindly ask the witness to look at this article. The

Page 9533

1 last person on the right-hand side, and the caption is, "Rado Cuteric."

2 That is the name that we have just seen in the records of the hospital.

3 My question is this: Can you remember whether this person,

4 whether this man came with his hands wrapped up? Did he join you when you

5 were sitting down with that group of people?

6 A. I can't recognise him in the photo, but a lad wearing a black

7 T-shirt, a handsome lad of medium build and height, with his hands wrapped

8 up was sitting with us and we had been waiting for him. It says here that

9 he was admitted at 1740 hours, and he joined us at the Jasen restaurant an

10 hour or so later.

11 Q. Thank you very much. This would be all regarding this photo.

12 And now I would like to ask you this: We had an occasion to hear

13 several witnesses, Bosniaks, in this courtroom, who were in the meadow in

14 Sandici and Lolici on the 13th and the 14th of July, 1995. They have told

15 us that in the course of the day, a cistern came, bringing them water and

16 splashing them with water to refresh them. To my colleague's question,

17 you confirmed earlier today that the cistern belonging to your company did

18 go to that road on those days and took water to the prisoners. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't believe there is any evidence in the

22 record that there were any live Muslims on that meadow on the 14th of

23 July.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What do you have to state about that?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can provide a

Page 9534

1 reference for the witness who spoke -- to be told about the 13th and since

2 he was a protected witness, I will focus on the 13th, if I may be given

3 that opportunity.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Would you --

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The 13th.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you maintain then your objection if it's

7 limited to the 13th?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: No problem with the 13th. The 14th is...

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I thought. So if you limit yourself to

10 the 13th, Mr. Stojanovic, we can proceed. Otherwise, I think we'll need

11 to check properly, because I think Mr. McCloskey is correct. So go ahead.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I do

13 have a reference for the 13th, and my question for the witness is this:

14 Q. Who gave you the task to send your cistern to that road, if you

15 can remember?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 Q. Was that from the army or from the civilian authorities, if you

18 can't remember exactly?

19 A. I don't know. I couldn't say off the top of my head, because I

20 can't remember. There was a cistern. It went to Bratunac on a number of

21 occasions to fill up with water and then it returned to the same location.

22 Q. You mentioned your meeting with Ljubomir Borovcanin that evening.

23 Do you remember that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us how long that meeting lasted, approximately, how

Page 9535

1 many minutes, how many tens of minutes, how many hours?

2 A. Well, about two hours.

3 Q. On the following day, as you testified on Friday, you spent the

4 greater part of the day in Glogova and you monitored the work of the

5 machines. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. At one point in time you went to Konjevic Polje again on that

8 day. Isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you be more precise and tell us what time of day it was?

11 A. It was in the afternoon hours.

12 Q. You passed by the Kravica warehouse again?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you spend any time there?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you see any machinery in front of the warehouse on that day in

17 the afternoon hours?

18 A. The ULT wasn't there in Glogova anymore, perhaps it was in

19 Kravica, but I didn't pay much attention to this. I didn't see it. But I

20 didn't have it in Glogova, at the location in Glogova.

21 Q. Did you see any soldiers at that point in time in front of the

22 warehouse?

23 A. I didn't pay much attention to that.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like

25 to put a few more questions to the witness, and then I will conclude, but

Page 9536

1 could we please move into private session?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go into private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9537











11 Page 9537 redacted. Private session















Page 9538

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And in these graves in Glogova, all the bodies that were found in

19 Konjevic Polje were buried there too; isn't that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Bodies found, when searching the territory and the area of Radno

22 Buljek [phoen], Kamenica, Pobudje, these bodies were also buried there?

23 A. All those who were killed up there, and even the five or six

24 bodies that I saw by the Vuk Karadzic School, the driver later informed me

25 that there had been more of them. All of them had been taken and -- to

Page 9539

1 those graves and buried in those graves in Glogova.

2 Q. Glogova or those graves in Glogova were places where all these

3 bodies were buried?

4 A. This is at a location on the left and the right to the road to

5 Kravica, and what Momir said about the area in the direction of

6 Halilovici, we weren't involved in that. I don't know who was.

7 Q. When you say Momir mentioned this, you are referring to Momir

8 Nikolic, aren't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

12 questions.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think we can take the break now, five

14 minutes ahead of schedule. Can we have more or less an estimate? I think

15 you have already intimated that you have cut down your hour to about 40

16 minutes, Madam Fauveau? And the Gvero Defence team?

17 Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we

19 won't need much time for the cross-examination of this witness. We

20 believe that we'll need less than 30 minutes, and we hope to conclude --

21 we hope that all the Defence teams will conclude by the end of the day.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Krgovic.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: I have a problem with the microphone. We will have

24 10 minutes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: 10 minutes?

Page 9540

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Sarapa.

3 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I don't think we'll need more than 25

4 or 30 minutes and I believe we will be able to conclude by the end of the

5 day. I will do my best to be as brief as possible, and to conclude today.

6 It depends on how lengthy the answers are.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make -- do you think you will have a

8 re-examination, Mr. McCloskey?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Very briefly. And I think if we could really

10 insist that this gets done by the end of the day. The time from direct to

11 cross in this context really is beyond the ...

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll come back on that and I'm sure that you will

13 think it over and do your best to finish this witness today. Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Have you all agreed to finish with this

17 witness today? All right. Then we will not try to cut down ourselves,

18 establish what, a time limit? Use your best judgement respecting each

19 other. And, of course, Mr. McCloskey too.

20 Mr. Petrusic.

21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Could we

22 first move into private session, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move into private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 9541

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We are already in open session. Go ahead.

20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Such a company also existed in Srebrenica?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It was therefore involved in the production and supply of water?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. According to some information that I have, sources and pumps to

Page 9542

1 supply the Srebrenica water-supply system were in Zeleni Jadar. Are you

2 aware of the fact?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is the Zeleni Jadar area to the south of Srebrenica, and after the

5 safe haven was established, was that area under the control of the ABiH?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. During the wartime years, did you hear anything about Serbian

8 forces, soldiers or police forces or any other forces, did you hear

9 anything about them committing sabotage on that water-supply system, and

10 as a result they threatened to cut off the water-supply to Srebrenica?

11 A. No, I never heard anything about that.

12 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Potocari, which is a village in the

13 vicinity of Srebrenica, it's several kilometres from Srebrenica in the

14 direction of Bratunac, was not linked to the urban water-supply system, to

15 the town water-supply system?

16 A. I think that Potocari was linked to the Srebrenica water-supply

17 system.

18 Q. As for the villages in the enclave, I don't want to enumerate them

19 now, but they include Suceska, Bojna, Vutuzarevo, and other villages, did

20 these villages have their own independent water-supply systems in the

21 area, in their respective areas?

22 A. In Srebrenica, as in all other municipalities, in addition to the

23 town water board, there were village water boards, village water-supply

24 systems. Each and every hamlet, each and every village had their own

25 source. There were even houses that had their own sources of water, they

Page 9543

1 had their own springing and they used them so to supply themselves with

2 water.

3 Q. So the army of Republika Srpska could in no way pose a threat to

4 the supply of water to Srebrenica or the entire enclave?

5 A. Well, naturally it couldn't because it was all under their

6 control.

7 Q. Very briefly now, Bratunac, tell me, how did Bratunac obtain water

8 in 1992?

9 A. In 1992 Bratunac used the main town water board from Bjelovac for

10 its needs.

11 Q. Was that water-supply system blown up?

12 A. Well, on three occasions, and the reservoir on one occasion. So

13 that's a total of four occasions.

14 Q. Members of the ABiH did this?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Witness, there's another subject I would now like to move on to.

17 You have already spoken about it at length, but I'm interested in the time

18 when you returned on the 13th, the 13th of July. We are certain about

19 that now. You returned in the evening hours from Kraljica [as

20 interpreted] to Bratunac, you returned to Bratunac, you passed through the

21 town and you went to the Javere [phoen] restaurant in the evening. You

22 went there about 9.00?

23 A. The Jasen restaurant.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: It got translated as Kraljica or something like

25 that. And I know you didn't say that.

Page 9544

1 JUDGE AGIUS: He said Kravica anyway. So let's proceed.

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. When passing through the town did you notice any army members?

4 A. On that day when what happened in Kravica happened.

5 Q. Sir, you returned to Bratunac from Kravica, and you passed through

6 the town. When passing through the town did you notice any members of the

7 army?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. Do you know that the army or rather the units that participated in

10 combat operations in the vicinity of Srebrenica withdrew and they went to

11 another location in the direction of Zepa?

12 A. I heard about that.

13 Q. Do you know that a unit or rather the soldiers from the Bratunac

14 Brigade were deployed at positions that were not in the town?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know that in the town only the members of the local

17 Bratunac police remained?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Witness, you have spoken about the 14th of July, that in the

20 morning you were informed about some five or six bodies, and that the

21 driver, Cvetinovic, informed you that he had transported those bodies to

22 Glogova?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That was in the morning hours of the 14th; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9545

1 Q. After having received that information, on the 14th in the

2 afternoon on the 15th, and later on, did you see or heard about any

3 killings that happened at the school, in the hangar and at the Vuk

4 Karadzic School?

5 A. No.

6 Q. In the year 2000 you were together with Mr. Ruez, you escorted him

7 to certain localities that he was interested in. And those localities

8 were all relative to your statement, given in October 2000?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did Mr. Ruez ask to enter the hangar, the Vuk Karadzic School, and

11 the technical school when the two of you visited Bratunac and its

12 surroundings?

13 A. No.

14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this concludes my

15 cross-examination.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Petrusic, also for your

17 cooperation.

18 Mr. Krgovic.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. I'll have a few questions for you about something that you have

23 already tackled in your evidence, and it concerns -- they concern your

24 stay in Srebrenica in the town after the units of the Drina Corps had

25 entered the core. Were you in Srebrenica a few days after that? Do you

Page 9546

1 remember?

2 A. Yes, I was in Srebrenica maybe 10 days later.

3 Q. Did you have an occasion to see the town, the centre of town

4 itself?

5 A. Yes, I inspected the entire area.

6 Q. Did you have an occasion to see the hospital, the post office

7 building, the municipal building, and the Bela [phoen] base which had been

8 the United Nations base in Srebrenica?

9 A. I did see the post office, the hospital, and what other buildings

10 did you mention?

11 Q. The United Nations base in Srebrenica.

12 A. The entrance to the town?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you notice on these buildings any bullet or shell traces?

16 What was the condition of these buildings?

17 A. I didn't see any shell traces, the facades were not damaged by

18 shrapnel. There might have been some bullet holes like on all the other

19 buildings, but they were the result of the fighting at the beginning of

20 the war.

21 Q. In your view those were old bullet holes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Old damage. Did you have an occasion to see that the unit had

24 cleaned the United Nations base? Did you have an occasion to enter the

25 United Nations base?

Page 9547

1 A. Yes, I did enter, but the units did not. And we did not clean

2 Srebrenica.

3 Q. In the base itself, did you see any shell holes or blood

4 indicating that something had happened there?

5 A. No.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

7 further questions for this witness.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that, Mr. Krgovic. Thank you so much.

9 Mr. Sarapa.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. You had a function in the civilian protection of Bratunac?

14 A. Yes.

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 A. I was the commander of the civilian protection.

18 MR. SARAPA: Maybe, yes, private session.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this needs to be redacted and we will go

20 into private session if you're pursuing that line of questioning,

21 Mr. Sarapa. That line of questions

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9548

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

7 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Could you please tell us how was the civil protection of Bratunac

9 organised and in Republika Srpska for that matter, according to what

10 principle was it organised?

11 A. I don't know how it was organised in Republika Srpska. In

12 Bratunac the military department mobilised people, mostly men who were not

13 able-bodied, to organise civilian protection unit. They cleaned the

14 terrain, both in peacetime and in wartime.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did all members of the civilian protection have their assignment

18 in the civilian protection, a constant assignment?

19 A. No.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel.

21 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You have mentioned the task of cleaning. What is that? What is

23 this task, cleaning? In very short outlines, if you can.

24 A. The civilian protection exists in all countries and it is

25 well-known why it exists. In wartime conditions they exist to bury the

Page 9549

1 dead, the killed, the animal carcasses, and prevention of contagious

2 diseases for the removal of various obstacles on the river-banks, on roads

3 this is what you call sanitisation.

4 Q. Can you make a distinction between a general sanitisation and the

5 battle field sanitisation or clean-up of terrain?

6 A. The clearing of the battle field or hygiene and sanitation

7 measures of the battle field, you know what this is, the civilian

8 protection has to remove bodies, bury them, mark the place.

9 Q. Does this mean that civilian protection units from Bratunac were

10 also involved in the clearing up of the battle fields?

11 A. In most cases.

12 Q. Can you please tell us whether the civilian protection was part of

13 the Republika Srpska army, or was it an independent organisation?

14 A. In the wartime conditions the civilian protection serves military

15 purposes.

16 Q. Could you please be more specific? Was the civilian protection a

17 part of the Republika Srpska army?

18 A. I think it was.

19 Q. Who did the civilian protection receive requests from, or tasks?

20 To be more specific, the clearing up of the terrain?

21 A. Let me put it this way: In the wartime conditions there were no

22 requests, there were just orders which needed to be carried out.

23 Q. When we are talking about this type of requests that come directly

24 from military structures do you think that this is in keeping with the

25 regulations, that this is by the book as it should be?

Page 9550

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. On the 22nd --

3 THE INTERPRETER: 26th, interpreter's correction.

4 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Or rather yesterday when answering the Prosecutor's questions

6 about the excavator, you said this on page 15, line second -- line 2, you

7 are talking about a backhoe excavator.

8 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Maybe we should go into private

9 session at this moment.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9551











11 Pages 9551-9554 redacted. Private session















Page 9555

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

23 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

24 Q. Witness, are you aware of the area mentioned by Mr. Stojanovic

25 called Ravni Buljum?

Page 9556

1 A. Ravni Buljim. I know where it is.

2 Q. Is that out in the woods beyond Jaglici in a rather remote area?

3 A. It's somewhere in the woods, and there are houses up there too.

4 Ravni Buljim is a very wide area.

5 Q. During the days that we're talking about, around the Kravica

6 murder and afterward, did you or anyone else you know go back into those

7 woods to retrieve Muslim bodies out of those woods?

8 A. Well, the employees of the public utilities company and the

9 civilian protection gathered bodies. There were even lorries that

10 couldn't access certain areas, but as to whether they were in Ravni

11 Buljim, I don't know, but they did bring them in from the woods.

12 Q. Your people actually went into those woods at that time-frame,

13 with Muslim soldiers running around in those woods, to pick up bodies?

14 A. No. That's not how it was done in the woods. It was up to the

15 road, as far as the road, as far as the river. But as to the woods, as

16 far as I know, given what I was told, on that day there were no soldiers,

17 no Muslim soldiers.

18 Q. You mentioned -- I believe you mentioned a grave in the area of

19 Halilovici that you didn't have anything to do with. Did you get

20 information about some grave around Halilovici?

21 A. Yes, I mentioned that a while ago because I don't know which

22 Defence team put a question to me about Momir Nikolic and wanted to know

23 whether I had done that and Momir mentioned me and said that I had told

24 him that we had transported the bodies there and that we had buried them

25 there. That had nothing do with us. That's not what we did.

Page 9557

1 Q. Can you tell me very briefly what information you had about any

2 potential bodies or graves in the area of Halilovici?

3 A. I didn't know about that. I didn't know anything about that,

4 Mr. Prosecutor. Mr. Ruez asked me about that when he went into the field.

5 He asked me about that. I said I knew nothing about it. He didn't even

6 take me to show me where the location was, he just asked me to take him

7 down the Drina River to show him the other grave site.

8 Q. Okay. Now, during your -- the -- about two-hour time at the

9 restaurant with Mr. Borovcanin, was Mr. Borovcanin present at that

10 restaurant the entire time with you?

11 A. I think so.

12 Q. Did you or he mention going back to Kravica -- or going to Kravica

13 to help Muslims?

14 A. I don't think I have understood you very well.

15 Q. Did you or anybody at the table talk about going to Kravica that

16 evening and helping out the Muslims at the warehouse?

17 A. I didn't, and while I was there no one discussed this. I don't

18 know.

19 Q. Okay. And again, just last question, the men that were killed and

20 buried in 1992 from the Vuk Karadzic School, were they separated from

21 their families and were their families then shipped out to Kladanj back in

22 1992?

23 A. In 1992 the bodies that we buried by the Drina were the bodies of

24 people who had been detained in the gym of the Vuk Karadzic School, of the

25 Vuk Karadzic primary school. Where they had been brought in from, I don't

Page 9558

1 know.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have nothing further.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

5 We don't have any further questions for you, sir, which means that

6 your testimony finishes here, ends here. You will receive assistance from

7 our staff to facilitate your return back home at the earliest. I think,

8 as my duty -- no, ask him to put it ...

9 I think it is my duty also on your behalf to thank the various

10 Defence teams that followed Mr. Beara in particular -- that followed

11 Mr. Ostojic in particular for having come forward and succeeded in

12 finishing the cross-examination in time, which makes it possible for you

13 to return back home somewhat earlier.

14 I also thank you for having come over to give testimony, and I

15 wish you a safe journey back home.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Bourgon, Mr. McCloskey. If you are in a

18 position to come back to us on what we discussed in the beginning of

19 today's sitting. If not, we can do it tomorrow.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I must say that at the

22 break we have agreed to disagree on one issue and that is the rebuttal

23 issue. The position of the Defence is as follows: Of course if my

24 colleague qualifies for rebuttal in accordance with the jurisprudence of

25 this Tribunal, then there is nothing the Defence could do about that. As

Page 9559

1 long as he qualifies in accordance with past decisions on rebuttal and

2 that could take place at any moment. But he will have first to qualify for

3 those. If that is the case then we can agree on dates very easily. Thank

4 you, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we will come back to you tomorrow on --

6 pardon?

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's easier. I think we could decide it here and

9 now, but I think -- yes, Mr. McCloskey.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: In thinking about it, Your Honour, I don't -- I

11 don't think the Prosecution wants to stick its neck out and agree to this

12 at all. Out of order now, with possibly no chance of rebutting it, I

13 don't think so. I think we can put that to bed. We absolutely disagree

14 with this coming into our case.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for your -- first of all for your mutual

16 consultations, as for your cooperation. We will come back to you

17 tomorrow. I don't think it will provide us with any problems to decide.

18 Next -- yeah, we will finish the exhibits now. Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We've got the pseudonym

20 sheet, P02485 and then we have, I believe, two pictures of Bratunac.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. I think one.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the -- one of them is 65 ter 1553, and the

23 other one is PIC00077, which is the one that was marked.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Any objections? I hear no objections.

25 They are so admitted. First one will remain -- I think if they have been

Page 9560

1 marked by -- no, it's the first one only, the pseudonym sheet will remain

2 under seal. The rest don't need to be kept like that.

3 Now, Defence teams. Mr. Zivanovic, do you wish to tender the part

4 of the testimony of the witness in --

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Page from Blagojevic case, I confronted the

6 witness with this part.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I will not mention the page and line

8 number. You all know which one it is because otherwise we'll have to go

9 into private session. I just ask whether the Prosecution objects to

10 this -- the admission of this document. Or, for that matter, any other

11 Defence team. I hear no objections.

12 That is so admitted. And it will remain under seal because

13 otherwise it would expose the identity of the witness.

14 Mr. Ostojic, I do not have notice that you wish to tender

15 documents, but I suppose you may have some.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: I -- we do, Your Honour. We weren't sure that it

17 was going to proceed today, but we have a list. We would like to submit

18 into evidence under our exhibits here, it's called 1D168, which was

19 previously placed on e-court, which is the proofing note of the 21st of

20 April, 2004. I think we saw it, we had testimony on that specifically.

21 Also --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: In whole or in part?

23 MR. OSTOJIC: It's a one-page document, so I would say whatever

24 the Court's pleasure is on this. We think it is always necessary in part,

25 but if the Court feels it's necessary, it's only a one-page document.

Page 9561

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: The various parts of the OTP interview conducted on

3 the 13th of October, 2000, which was previously identified as 1D167, and

4 then we would also ask for the portions of the transcript of this

5 gentleman's testimony in that other case that we were -- that was in

6 e-court under 1D169, just the portions that he obviously discussed. And

7 then we would ask for the OTP proofing notes of both the 20th of March

8 2007 as 2D96, and the proofing notes, which is actually a letter dated the

9 21st of March, 2007, which is 2D86. I don't know why the numbers are

10 different, but I'm going to look into that. But those are the numbers

11 that I have.

12 And in addition to that, we would ask that the two documents that

13 the witness marked during his testimony, which are 2DIC79, where he

14 mentions, I think, the word "volunteer," ultimately. And then also

15 2DIC80, which is where he mentions the headquarters that Your Honour

16 assisted us with.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Are there any objections on your part?

18 MR. OSTOJIC: One last thing, my learned friend and I are working

19 on a specific stipulation relating to one issue that does involve Exhibit

20 2D86, we just haven't had an opportunity to actually exchange much other

21 than to discuss that, we hope to have that for the Court tomorrow on that

22 issue.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 Mr. McCloskey, do you have any objections to any of these

25 documents?

Page 9562

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's unclear to me when he says portions of the

2 transcripts of the testimony of Blagojevic, that -- that could be a lot of

3 things. And portions --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Marked portions.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't know what he means, and I don't know what

6 "portions of the OTP interview" means. If -- if they are significant

7 portions, and the Court wishes, we'll -- you can see the whole thing. But

8 I think trying to figure out piecemeal is --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, fair enough. We are running short of time. I

10 think you will update Mr. McCloskey on that between today and tomorrow.

11 And we will conclude on your exhibits tomorrow.

12 Mr. Stojanovic wishes to tender three documents. One is a

13 photograph of the Kravica warehouse, one is the Bratunac health centre

14 patient log that we saw, and the other one is the RS Republika Srpska MUP

15 magazine where we saw the photos of those four policemen.

16 Any objections?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, in fact I would join in the Bratunac health

18 centre. He's stolen that from us, but no problem.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So they are -- any objections on the part of

20 any of the Defence teams? None. So these three documents are so

21 admitted. And I think we can adjourn now and tomorrow we'll start with

22 finalising the Beara Defence exhibits.

23 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

24 MR. BOURGON: Just one quick point, Mr. President, concerning if

25 the Trial Chamber is about to render a decision with respect to hearing a

Page 9563

1 Defence expert at this time, both my colleague and I from the Prosecution,

2 we agreed on the 14 days, 14 days after the hearing of the witness.

3 However, can 14 days -- if the witness testifies on the 23rd of May, that

4 would give that we would have to file a response on the 5th or 6th of

5 June, which is in the middle of the week that the Trial Chamber is not

6 sitting. So then we will be asking at least to file our response after

7 the week that the Trial Chamber is not sitting.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We will take that into consideration when we discuss

11 tomorrow. One other thing that I want to be sure that you have been

12 informed that the Friday -- sitting this Friday has been moved to the

13 morning. All right. Thank you.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

16 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.