1 Thursday, 29 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everybody. Madam Registrar, could

7 you kindly call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. Accused Colonel Beara is not

11 present today. The Trial Chamber has been informed that he is

12 indisposed. I take it that there is a waiver, Mr. Ostojic, if you could

13 kindly confirm that.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: There is, Your Honour. We met with him this

15 morning, and he wasn't feeling well but he was going to the nurses and the

16 UND said that they were going to provide all the necessary forms to you,

17 and he has orally given me the authorisation to proceed in his absence

18 with this witness and perhaps the next one tomorrow, because it's in the

19 morning session, he may not recover that quickly.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

21 And from the Defence teams I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon,

22 and Mr. Haynes. All right. From Prosecution I notice the presence of

23 Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls, Mr. Elderkin, and no one else behind the

24 column.

25 The witness is present. Witness, good afternoon to you.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. You don't need to --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to repeat the solemn declaration that

5 you made yesterday to testify the truth. It's still valid and will

6 continue to be valid throughout your entire testimony.

7 All right. Mr. Josse.

8 WITNESS: MEHO DZEBO [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps I should tell the Chamber and the witness the

11 matter that caused that rather unseemly scene in court yesterday has been

12 resolved, and I'm grateful to my learned friends who have been very

13 cooperative and I will deal with this in due course, not with this

14 witness.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: This is about the documents.

16 MR. JOSSE: Yes. A great deal of time is going to be saved as a

17 result of my learned friend's cooperation.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that, Mr. McCloskey or Mr. Elderkin, I

19 don't know who you negotiated with, and yourself, Mr. Josse. Let's go

20 ahead.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse: [Continued]

22 Q. Witness, before we return to the document that I was in the middle

23 of cross-examining you about yesterday, I would like to go back slightly

24 in time and look at one other document that I should have perhaps asked

25 about yesterday and it's 6D69, please.

1 This is a report, in effect, from Mr. Sahic to the Sarajevo

2 services centre dated we can see the 16th of February, 1994, and it's the

3 very last page, please, that I'd like to look at, page 2 in the B/C/S,

4 page 3 in the English. Towards the bottom of the page, please, that's

5 fine, thank you.

6 After the numerated items we see, and I'm reading from the middle

7 of that next paragraph, "All members of the Zepa SJB are organised into a

8 police war manoeuvre unit which, within the Zepa demilitarised zone,

9 carries out tasks envisaged by the binding instructions of the MUP of the

10 republic on the organisation and tasks of the police during war and other

11 extraordinary circumstances, as well as combat tasks in the defence of the

12 free territory of Zepa municipality envisaged by the plan on the

13 organisation tasks, engagement and works of units and the order of the

14 commander of the Zepa municipality armed forces in the zone of

15 responsibility assigned to the unit."

16 What do you understand that to mean, Witness?

17 A. Well, this is just an information note. There were no activities

18 and no tasks, apart from at the time of defence, since the police did have

19 its zone of responsibility at that time. That's all I can say.

20 Q. Why do you think Mr. Sahic used the word "combat tasks in the

21 defence of the free territory of Zepa municipality"? What did he mean by

22 the words "combat tasks"?

23 A. I don't know, I can't answer that question, it's not clear to me.

24 Q. Isn't this evidence that at the very least in early 1994 the SJB

25 worked in conjunction with the Zepa Brigade on offensive manoeuvres

1 against Serb targets outside of the enclave?

2 A. Not during that period of time, because there were no offensive

3 manoeuvres at that time.

4 Q. In case I have misunderstood you, is there any period of time that

5 you say the Zepa SJB worked in conjunction with the brigade in offensive

6 manoeuvres?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So I don't want to labour the point, but is it wrong to read this

9 document so as to suggest that the SJB were, in early 1994, involved in

10 combat tasks?

11 A. I've just told you that there were no combat tasks.

12 Q. One other part of the document I would like to direct your

13 attention to, please, and it's the second paragraph on the first page.

14 Mr. Sahic says, "Depending on war activities between 13 July 1992, when it

15 was set up, and 24 November 1993, the Zepa SJB carried out tasks falling

16 within its competence in the Zepa region participating in the defence of

17 the free territory on a daily basis and performing the most difficult and

18 complex combat tasks in the region and also elsewhere."

19 What's Mr. Sahic talking about there, please, Witness?

20 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with that. Since there was no

21 action during that period of time.

22 Q. Of course the 24th of November of 1993 was after the

23 demilitarisation of the zone, wasn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Right. We'll move on and, if we may, move back to the document

1 that I was asking you about yesterday, which is 6D82.

2 And whilst it's being got up on the screen, you will remember that

3 you were disputing my proposition that the Muslim defenders of the Zepa

4 enclave had some -- had a greater degree of artillery weapons at their

5 disposal than you were asserting. You remember you and I disagreeing

6 about that yesterday, Witness?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. And so far as the document is concerned, we had dealt with the

9 barriers that you accept had been placed in Zepa for defensive purposes,

10 and I had got to a point in the document which dealt with barriers using

11 logs and stones. The next sentence, I'm going to summarise, basically the

12 author of the report says there is a possibility that there may be some

13 improvised MES, which apparently is mines and explosives and then I'll

14 read on.

15 "The Muslim forces have also incorporated UNPROFOR combat hardware

16 and weapons which they obtained following the recent blockade and capture

17 of the Ukrainian check-points into their defensive arsenal."

18 Now, to be fair to you, I think you said early on in my

19 cross-examination that you accept that weapons were seized by the

20 defenders from UNPROFOR. Isn't that right?

21 A. I can't remember having said that.

22 Q. All right. Deal with it a different way, because I am not in a

23 position to check at the moment. The sentence I have just read to you

24 from this report; do you agree with it?

25 A. I don't know. I heard nothing about their weapons being used and

1 whether they took them to the base, I don't know. I don't know what they

2 did with them.

3 Q. The report continues: "We believe that at least nine OT," which

4 are the armoured personnel carriers, "with the accompanying weapons and

5 ammunition are in the hands of Muslim soldiers."

6 Did you see any armoured personnel carriers being used by the

7 defenders?

8 A. I didn't.

9 Q. Did you learn through any source as to whether armoured personnel

10 carriers were being used by the defenders, as opposed to seeing it with

11 your own eyes?

12 A. I heard nothing about it.

13 Q. The next part of this report, if we could scroll down slightly,

14 please, deals with firing positions which even the report says are

15 only "conditionally accurate." And I am not going to go through those.

16 Immediately beneath that it says, "In any case, for four days now

17 the Muslims have been making their presence known with heavy 14.5

18 millimetre PAM." Do you know what a PAM is?

19 A. It's an anti-aircraft machine-gun.

20 Q. They were being used by the defenders, weren't they?

21 A. No, they weren't, because they didn't have such weapons.

22 Q. You can categorically say, can you, that the information contained

23 within this Drina Corps report is inaccurate?

24 A. It's not correct. At least not as far as this part that concerns

25 the PAMs is concerned.

1 Q. Let's go on. Deals with the reserve ammunition, I won't ask you

2 about that. Then it says, "Likewise, coaxial 7.62-millimetre PM of the

3 PKT type with around 40.000 rounds were probably also dismounted from the

4 OT." Does that term, 7.62-millimetre PM, mean anything to you?

5 A. Yes, it does. I'm familiar with that calibre.

6 Q. Were they being used by the defenders?

7 A. It's possible, perhaps one was captured at the beginning of the

8 war. As far as the quantity of ammunition is concerned, there's nothing I

9 can say about that.

10 Q. Let's go on. "The Ukrainian check-points also had 40-millimetre

11 RBR of the RGP type" what are RBRs of the RGP type, please?

12 A. Believe me, I really don't know what these abbreviations mean.

13 Q. Would it be right to say that they're hand-held rocket launchers?

14 Did you see any of those being used?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 Q. The Drina Corps suggests that at least 120 of the rockets that go

17 into such rocket launchers were in the enclave, left by UNPROFOR. What do

18 you say about that?

19 A. I don't know anything about that.

20 Q. What happened to the UNPROFOR hardware?

21 A. I don't know. I know that their members stayed on after we had

22 been evacuated. What subsequently happened to those things, I really

23 don't know.

24 Q. Are you aware of UNPROFOR being relieved of their weapons by the

25 Muslims at all?

1 A. I wasn't aware of anything being seized. All I know is that they

2 had withdrawn from their check-points and gone to their base. Whether

3 that was with their equipment and weapons or without those items, I don't

4 know.

5 Q. Witness, if you say that the defenders didn't have the sort of

6 weaponry described in this report, I repeat, in a different context,

7 question I asked you yesterday: Why were the defenders able to repel the

8 Serb attack for so long?

9 A. I told you yesterday, it was a matter of a fight for survival, the

10 survival of the individuals concerned and of their families. They had to

11 do their utmost to defend themselves and in the end they didn't succeed.

12 What happened, happened.

13 Q. You have told us that because you were incapacitated you were not

14 involved in police activity at all in July of 1995. Is that right?

15 A. Yes, you're right.

16 Q. Are you aware as to whether any of your police colleagues

17 participated in the defence of the enclave in July of 1995?

18 A. I've already said that the police had its own zone of

19 responsibility in the event of an attack and that was at Brezova Ravan.

20 Q. Well, do you know offhand at what point Brezova Ravan fell into

21 the hands of the Serbs?

22 A. I'm not a hundred per cent sure, but I think it was a day or two

23 before the civilian population and the wounded were evacuated.

24 Q. And was it at that point that the police were engaged with Serbian

25 forces in trying to stop that post from falling?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how do you know that, bearing in mind you were incapacitated

3 and at your parents' home?

4 A. My colleagues who survived told me about this. That's how I know.

5 Q. And what weapons did your colleagues use in trying to defend the

6 post?

7 A. Mostly automatic rifles.

8 Q. Which they had got from where?

9 A. From UNPROFOR, when they returned the weapons that had been taken

10 at the beginning of the war, or rather in May 1993.

11 Q. And have you any idea how your police colleagues defended that

12 post, for several days at the very least, using automatic rifles against

13 the light and heavy artillery at the disposal of the VRS?

14 A. They had dug in, the defence line had been established. They

15 managed to hold the line right up until infantry attacks were launched.

16 Once the infantry attacks were launched, the line gave way and Brezova

17 Ravan fell.

18 Q. Nearing the end, Witness. You, I take it, know nothing about the

19 negotiations to evacuate the civilian population of the enclave. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. Very little.

22 Q. What do you know?

23 A. All I know is what I heard about the result of the negotiations

24 and about how the civilian population and the wounded were to be

25 evacuated. As for the course of the negotiations, as to what happened up

1 there, I know nothing about that.

2 Q. And at the point that you left, what did you understand was going

3 to happen to the armed Muslim men of the enclave?

4 A. Believe me, I didn't give that much thought at the time. I

5 thought about myself, about how I would get out.

6 MR. JOSSE: Could I have a moment, please.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 MR. JOSSE:

9 Q. I just want to go back and ask you one thing I had been

10 questioning you about a moment ago. And that is the area where your

11 police colleagues were defending. How large was that area; do you know?

12 A. Perhaps between 100 and 150 metres long, not more than that.

13 Q. Do you know where the nearest army unit was? Well, brigade unit

14 was. I'm talking about defence brigade, in relation to where the

15 policemen were?

16 A. They were deployed on the left flank and on the right flank, but I

17 don't know how close they were to each other, how close they were linked

18 up, in other words.

19 Q. Do you know where the Luka unit, police unit, this is, were

20 engaged, if at all?

21 A. I'm not sure that they were engaged. If they had been, they were

22 on the terrain that they covered in practical terms, which was in the

23 direction of Srebrenica.

24 Q. At the point that you left the enclave you had no idea, did you,

25 what was going to happen to the enclave?

1 A. One could only assume.

2 Q. Yes, thank you very much.

3 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse. Who's next?

5 Mr. Meek.

6 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President. I just have a few questions.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness, how are you?

9 A. Good afternoon. I'm well. And you yourself?

10 Q. Fine, thank you very much. Witness, do you know an individual by

11 the name of Muhamed [sic] Hajric from Zepa?

12 A. Mehmed Hajric, yes, I know him.

13 Q. And could you tell me briefly what was his position at the time,

14 in 1995?

15 A. In 1995, Mr. Hajric was the president of the Presidency of Zepa

16 municipality.

17 Q. And in that position can you describe what his duties were?

18 A. Believe me, I can't tell you, because I don't know. I'm not

19 familiar with that.

20 Q. And in the time-frame leading up to the evacuation in Zepa, did

21 you -- do you recall personally speaking with him?

22 A. No, I did not speak with him.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 MR. MEEK: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Meek.

9 Mr. Elderkin, before we run out of time, the -- let's go into

10 private session. You may sit down, Mr. Meek, and follow what I have to

11 say.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

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20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Zivanovic, I understand you don't have any

23 cross-examination for this witness.

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

1 Ms. Nikolic.

2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I won't

3 have any cross-examination for this witness either.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, madam.

5 Mr. Lazarevic or Mr. Stojanovic.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: We have no cross-examination for the witness.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Madam Fauveau. Or sorry.

8 Mr. Petrusic.

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could you just bear

10 with me for a moment, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I hope that we will agree that combat

14 activities around Srebrenica or attacks, depending on the angle, started

15 on the 14th of July, 1995. Do we agree? I apologise, I'm talking about

16 Zepa, actually.

17 A. I can't remember the exact date, but it is possible.

18 Q. In your statement you stated that the convoys stopped arriving

19 some month or month and a half before the attacks. Did I understand your

20 statement well?

21 A. Yes, you did. But I'm not a hundred per cent sure about that

22 either. When I provided my statement I said that as far as I can

23 remember, this was in late May or early June, but I'm not sure.

24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at document

25 5D229. Mr. President, the document that the Defence is going to show to

1 the witness are in Serbian only, and it is -- it -- they are all being

2 translated at the moment, and I apologise for this to you.

3 Q. Witness, can you see the document which was issued on the 17th of

4 June, 1995? Yesterday you saw a similar document, but not the same one.

5 This was issued by the brigadier of the 2nd Corps of the BiH army. His

6 name is Sulejman Budakovic. It was sent to the command of the 285th Light

7 Brigade Zepa, RLBR Zepa. In the introduction of this document it says

8 that, "Pursuant to an oral order by the commander of the general staff of

9 the BiH army, on the occasion of great successes that the units of the

10 ABiH army have achieved in the general sector of Sarajevo and Gorazde, and

11 pursuant to the intelligence according to which the command of the AS

12 protection regiment in Han Pijesak keep in reserve some of the troops in

13 order to intervene in case of an attack by our forces from Zepa."

14 Do you know, did you hear of this protection regiment unit in Han

15 Pijesak?

16 A. No, I have never heard this before.

17 Q. And do you know that in Han Pijesak there was the Main Staff of

18 the army of Republika Srpska?

19 A. I didn't know that.

20 Q. Further on in this order do you see under item 1 that this order

21 was issued in order to inflict losses upon the aggressor forces and that

22 there should be cooperation with the AR BiH, which are carrying out

23 operations in the Sarajevo sector. Did you know that there was combat

24 around Sarajevo?

25 A. I only heard it on the radio and this is all I knew, I heard it on

1 the news.

2 Q. Further on, under item 2 of this order, can you see that the order

3 is issued in order to plan realistic tasks by which success will be

4 achieved based on the true assessment and the true capabilities of our

5 forces in Srebrenica and Zepa?

6 A. I didn't know anything about this.

7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I please call document 227.

8 I apologise, this is 5D227. I apologise.

9 Q. Sir, this document was issued on the 28th of June, 1995. Can you

10 see that? And on page 2 of this document, could we please go to page 2?

11 Thank you.

12 You can see that the document was signed by Colonel Avdo Palic.

13 Can we go back to the front page of the document, please?

14 Under item 1 of this document it -- could you please scroll up?

15 We are actually talking about the first paragraph of the document. It's

16 okay now.

17 It says, "Pursuant to the order by the acting commander of the

18 28th Division of Srebrenica, Major Ramiz Becirevic, in connection with the

19 order issued on the 20th of June, 1995, I am taking measures in order to

20 carry out sabotage operations with a view to inflicting losses on the

21 aggressor, on the aggressor's troops and equipment, and the overall

22 prevention from Chetniks accessing Sarajevo."

23 Pursuant to this order, the goal is to deter the enemy forces from

24 approaching Srebrenica, Zepa and ultimately Sarajevo. Is that the case or

25 not?

1 A. This is what it says on the paper. But what the factual situation

2 was, I wouldn't know.

3 Q. Witness, if we briefly go back to the previous document issued the

4 17th of June, do you remember what it contained?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In that document the attacks are also mentioned, and also combat

7 activities around Sarajevo. Can we then conclude that these documents,

8 actually the latter document, the second document, is consistent with the

9 previous one, or rather that the second document is just to implement the

10 order of a higher command?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could we now scroll up the document in order to show the numbers

13 from 1 to 9, so can you scroll down? Excellent. Thank you.

14 Sir, in the middle of this document you can see numbers from 1 to

15 9. Can you see them?

16 A. Yes, I can.

17 Q. Sabotage groups are mentioned here. That from the sectors of Zepa

18 and Srebrenica attack roads and facilities in the area of Zlebovi [phoen]

19 Pecnik near Han-Kram, will we agree that this is the main road or the

20 regional road connecting Vlasenica with Han Pijesak?

21 A. It's rather Sokolac Han Pijesak.

22 Q. Okay. So Sokolac Han Pijesak. You have anticipated my next

23 question. Under number 2, Romanija Sokolac, the same road is mentioned.

24 And the administrative building on the road to Sokolac, and also Zlebovi

25 Pecnik is mentioned?

1 A. But I didn't know where that building is, unfortunately.

2 Q. Under 8 you can see that a reference is made to a place called

3 Karaule [phoen], which is on that same road, the road from Vlasenica to

4 Sokolac?

5 A. I am not familiar with that sector at all. I don't know where

6 that is.

7 Q. In any case, we have agreed that these operations were taking

8 place on that road between Vlasenica and Sokolac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Based on this report, therefore, and could we know scroll down the

11 document just a little? Yes.

12 You can see that in the last paragraph a reference is made to the

13 fact that about 40 Chetniks were killed, dozens of them were wounded, a

14 significant amount of equipment was captured, and so on and so forth. Can

15 you see that as part of this combat report?

16 A. Yes, I can.

17 Q. One can then conclude, based on this report, that on this road

18 combat operations were going on? Sir, did you hear my question? Or do I

19 have to repeat it?

20 A. I -- I am not -- I'm not clear on what you were asking me.

21 Q. I'm asking you this: Will you agree with me that the

22 Vlasenica-Sokolac road was the place of certain combat operations?

23 A. Yes, this is what it says on this paper.

24 Q. Will you agree with me that in the area of combat operations

25 usually the movement of vehicles is somewhat restricted?

1 A. What zone are you referring to, the same zone?

2 Q. The same zone, from Vlasenica to Sokolac.

3 A. I suppose so, it must have been.

4 Q. Would you then agree with me -- I apologise. Would you agree with

5 me that if a convoy which leaves Zvornik to arrive in Rogatica and Zepa,

6 it has to go through Vlasenica, Han Pijesak and Sokolac?

7 A. Yes, that's the road that such a convoy would use.

8 Q. Sir, you have told us that some of the humanitarian aid, and you

9 correct me if I'm wrong, please, some 12 per cent was allocated for the

10 army. Am I right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. As you were doing your job, when it comes to the goods from the

13 humanitarian aid, could you find those on the black market which existed

14 in all of the enclaves, primarily in Zepa?

15 A. Yes, some little quantities of salt and some flour could be found.

16 Q. I assume that you know who defined that percentage of 12 per cent

17 that had to be allocated for the army?

18 A. I don't know whether it was the Executive Board or the municipal

19 assembly, but in any case, it was one or the other.

20 Q. In Zepa?

21 A. Yes, in Zepa.

22 Q. Are you familiar with the person called Enver Stitkovac whose

23 nickname was Zuco?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can we agree that he was maybe the main wheeler and dealer on the

1 black market?

2 A. Yes, we can agree on that but he did not deal in the goods from

3 the humanitarian aid. He sold other types of goods.

4 Q. What did he trade in?

5 A. Cigarettes, fuel, salt, those were his staple goods. Some

6 chocolate for the children maybe.

7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can I please call up document

8 number 5D223.

9 Q. Witness, this document was issued by the chief of the public

10 security station, Hurim Sahic. In the letterhead of that document it says

11 public security station, Zepa, the date is 4th of April, 1995. In the

12 first paragraph of this document it says as follows: "The check-point of

13 the public security station of Zepa was put up on the Zepa-Rogatica road

14 in a place called Brezova Ravan at the entrance to the demilitarised zone

15 of Zepa. In the vicinity of that check-point is the check-point manned by

16 UNPROFOR."

17 Yesterday, in the course of your testimony you told us that the

18 check-point had indeed been set up in order to check the goods and people

19 entering Zepa. We can then agree that this is what you said?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In paragraph 2, line 4, it says this: "However, the police

22 manning the check-point have infantry and anti-armour weapons which are

23 used for the implementation of the combat task that was given to the

24 public security station of Zepa on the order of the commander to 85 IBLBR

25 on the defence of the free territory of Zepa. The aforementioned weapons

1 are kept away from the UNPROFOR and members of other UN organisations in

2 order not to put the security of the zone at risk."

3 Sir, were you ever at this check-point, as part of your duties?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. You were aware of the existence of these weapons?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In this document, further down under item 3 it says, "On the 30th

8 of March, 1995, an UNPROFOR convoy was controlled at the Brezova Ravan

9 check-point in the Kamaz vehicle, registration number" such-and-such,

10 goods were found that weren't part of the convoy. Goods which were taken

11 from the owner, Major Sergej, with a certificate, and he was informed that

12 these goods would be returned to him when the convoy left the zone. Are

13 you familiar with this?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Are you also aware of the fact that on that occasion, on the 30th

16 of March, the black market goods, these black market goods were kept, 100

17 kilograms of coffee, 364 pieces of chocolate, bars of chocolate, 75

18 lighters, 1.789 packets of rolling paper?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So we will agree that all of these goods were goods that were

21 unavailable on the Zepa market, and later it was sold for far greater

22 price than is usual on that market?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On that occasion, at the time of this event, did Mr. Sahic, inform

25 the MUP, the ministry of the interior in Sarajevo, on the very same date,

1 about 8.00 p.m. at the Brezova Ravan check-point, a vehicle arrived and

2 this UNPROFOR major called Sergej got out of the vehicle, as well as Enver

3 Stitkovac, also known as Zuco, who permanently resided in Zepa. Are you

4 aware of the fact that they arrived at that check-point?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Stitkovac used a weapon to threaten

7 people and take those goods away to Zepa?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also do not dispute the fact that your colleagues did not

10 intervene, they did not make use of the weapons that were concealed

11 somewhere at the check-point?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you also don't dispute the fact that Stitkovac enjoyed the

14 protection of the civilian and military leadership, in addition -- and in

15 spite of the fact that the police reported to the court, and the

16 prosecutor's office, he was never prosecuted?

17 A. Yes, you're correct. And in addition to that support, UNPROFOR

18 also supported and protected him because he worked with them and for them.

19 Q. Your superior, or I apologise.

20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I used the

21 term "your superior" and I wasn't thinking about the fact that that might

22 reveal the identity of -- very well.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me consult with the Prosecution. I personally

24 don't have problems, none of the other judges.

25 Mr. Elderkin.

1 MR. ELDERKIN: I don't think so, given what's come out already.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Petrusic, please proceed.

3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Suljic then says that when assessing the phenomenon of illegal

5 trading in Zepa, he claims that the best way to prevent such crime is to

6 control individuals, vehicles and goods at the entrance into Zepa, with

7 the objective of preventing them from bringing in goods for the black

8 market. Are you aware of the fact that he informed his superiors about

9 his way of controlling the situation?

10 A. No. But if he informed anyone, he informed people who were his

11 superiors.

12 Q. Let's have a look at the next page of this document, please.

13 Let's have a look at item 4. You don't dispute the fact that this is what

14 is stated in the document?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Could we please tender 5D5237.

17 THE INTERPRETER: "Could we see it, please."

18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] My colleague has just told me that

19 we have this document in English too. Could we have a look at the last

20 two paragraphs. We can leave it like this.

21 Q. Sir, as you can see, this document has been forwarded by the SJB.

22 JUDGE KWON: I take it the number should read 237?

23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 237, yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Because in the transcript, in case you're not

25 following Judge Kwon, in the transcript you have Exhibit 5D5237, and that

1 is an unlikely number in the first place.

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 Q. Sir, as you can see, this document was forwarded by the Zepa

4 public security station to the Security Services Centre in Sarajevo. To

5 the chief of that service the assistant minister of the -- of -- of the

6 interior, Momir Stanovic, issued the document. Please let's have a look

7 at the last two paragraphs.

8 The penultimate paragraph, Witness, reads as follows: "Authorised

9 officials have the duty to take measures and organise activities in order

10 to detect crimes that relate to bringing in 40 or rather goods that are

11 not sufficiently supplied and that are intended for the black market.

12 These measures shall not be taken at check-points but in areas where these

13 elicit activities are, in fact, being carried out."

14 Witness, would you agree with me that the assistant minister, Omer

15 Stambolic is suggesting to the chief of the public security station in

16 Zepa that he should not control anything at the check-point, the

17 check-point which was established, but he should do so -- he should carry

18 out checks, once these goods have been distributed, once they start

19 distributing the goods on the market?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So that would be counter to any kind of logic, police logic or any

22 other kind of logic, when it comes to crime prevention. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] One correction. Perhaps my

25 phrasing of the question was awkward, but the document we are referring to

1 was sent to the deputy minister of the interior from Sarajevo to the chief

2 of the SJB in Zepa.

3 Q. In the last paragraph in this document, Witness, is the following

4 stated -- just a minute.

5 Does it state that acting counter to the suggestion of the

6 assistant minister, could result in the supply of humanitarian aid being

7 interrupted? Sir, do you have an explanation as to why establishing a

8 check-point and as to why controlling goods at the check-point could

9 result in cutting off the supply of humanitarian aid? Can you comment on

10 this?

11 A. The goods that were being controlled had nothing to do with the

12 supply of humanitarian aid. There was no direct link between the two, so

13 I find this illogical.

14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we see 5D233, please. We'll

15 just have a quick look at this.

16 Q. You can see that the heading of the document mentions the 285th

17 IBLBR Zepa.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The signatory of this document is Zuco, and I believe we will

20 agree that this is Enver Stitkovac?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. By this telegram he informs a certain Suljo in the command of the

23 28th division in Srebrenica that the price of oil was four German marks

24 and petrol, five German marks. Is that correct?

25 A. This is what it says, however this was much more expensive on the

1 market itself, in realistic terms.

2 Q. In other words, Stitkovac, Enver Stitkovac, Zuco, also supplied

3 the army, the 28th Division, with different types of fuel? Is that

4 correct? Do you agree?

5 A. This is what it says on this piece of paper, but I didn't know

6 that. I was unaware of that.

7 Q. The last sentence in this telegram which says that the telegram

8 was sent with the approval of the command of the 285th IBLBR. Does it

9 corroborate the fact that he enjoyed the trust of many people, including

10 the commander of this brigade?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up document

13 5D241.

14 Q. Sir, if you look at the heading of this document, and if you see

15 that this document was issued a day after the previous document that we

16 saw, and that -- that it was sent to Zuco from Srebrenica, it is clear

17 that this document is talking about the sale that was also mentioned in

18 the previous document. Am I right?

19 A. Yes, you are.

20 Q. Witness, you performed the duties, correct me if I'm wrong, as of

21 1994?

22 A. In the crime prevention department, yes.

23 Q. And how long did you stay in that job?

24 A. Until the beginning of June or the end of May, until I was

25 hospitalised in 1995.

1 Q. Did you have any knowledge about illegal trade before you became

2 an operative in the police?

3 A. Maybe, just partly. Because all of these things were done with

4 the mediation of UNPROFOR. All the goods were taken over from their

5 check-points, or from their main base.

6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at 5D31. The

7 ERN number is 5027. These are the last digits.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Usher, I think it's two pages further on.

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 5027. Thank you. Excellent.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We've got it.

11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The English version is 5015.

12 Q. Sir, could you please look at number 3, the person mentioned is

13 Nedzad Bektic?

14 A. Yes, I can see that.

15 Q. I assume that you know that he was the assistant commander for

16 security in the 28th Division?

17 A. I didn't know that, but I heard of that person.

18 Q. In this report it says that in late 1992 and early 1993, Bektic

19 sold wheat in Zepa that was war booty or people provided it for the army.

20 At the time a hundred grams [as interpreted] of wheat was sold at 2.000

21 German marks. Do you know anything about illegal trade in cereals?

22 A. I know something, but not in the way you interpret it. At that

23 time people went to Srebrenica from Zepa to buy food, but not seeds for

24 sowing, just foods, cereal for food.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrusic, your microphone, please.

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

3 correct something. On page 27, 11 -- line 11, instead of gram, it should

4 read kilogram.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, do you know whether the convoys of humanitarian aid, since

8 we're talking about seeds, cereal seeds, also carried those cereal seeds?

9 A. Not as cereal seeds, but potato seeds and some vegetables like

10 tomato and peppers and similar things.

11 Q. Zepa and its surroundings i.e. the protected area of Zepa was

12 primarily rural area, wasn't it?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. And people primarily engaged in farming before the war and during

15 the war?

16 A. Yes, farming and cattle-breeding were the main sources of income.

17 Q. Witness, you told us yesterday that you were never awarded or

18 decorated for your work. Are you familiar with an initiative on the part

19 of the chief of security, Mr. Sahic, on the 6th of April, which was the

20 official day of the Security Services, the collegium of the public

21 security station in Zepa proposed to the MUP to decorate you for your

22 achievements and your work?

23 A. Not just me, but some other people as well. My colleagues. But

24 this all boiled down to that request, or sent to the ministry of interior

25 in Sarajevo.

1 Q. I'm going to show you this request, or proposal. This is document

2 5D218. Can I call this document up on the screen, please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No broadcast.

4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I don't think it's

5 necessary to show it, because the document contains information that

6 should not be made public.

7 Q. Sir, this is the suggestion for an award and you say that it never

8 came to anything, it was just a suggestion?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have a look after item 7. Please scroll down a bit. It says a

11 particular award to be conferred on a policeman and then there is an

12 illegible part and it says then, "And Sabriju Kulovac, the son of Galiba

13 born on the 25th of January, 1957, for the successfully having detected

14 perpetrator of a crime committed against an UNHCR convoy on the 24th of

15 August, 1994." At the time you were in the police force?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us were this occurred?

18 A. In the Zepa area, and it related, the event or incident related to

19 the misappropriation of fuel.

20 Q. And the convoy transporting humanitarian aid was attacked?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [No interpretation]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't received interpretation, but if I

24 understand you well, you wish to take the break now?

25 THE INTERPRETER: "Mr. President, I see we have another couple of

1 minutes before the break, so I suggest we have the break now."

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, Mr. Meek has asked to be excused,

6 and we have excused him. Give him permission to stay away.

7 Mr. Petrusic.

8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness, we'll briefly deal with the relationship between your

10 service and the army. In the course of your testimony yesterday -- well,

11 could we see 6D49, page 5? My colleague Josse asked a question about

12 this. Page 5, please. Yes. Could you scroll down a bit? I'd like to

13 see the last paragraph.

14 Witness, as you can see, the document was written on the 30th of

15 April, 1994 by the SJB chief, Mr. Sahic. It was forwarded to the Supreme

16 Command of the ABiH, to Rasim Delic, General Rasim Delic personally. In

17 the last paragraph he says, "I am informing you that as soon as the war

18 requires this, together with SJB members, I will take up the first combat

19 positions and to date, this has practically been a daily activity for us."

20 Do you have a comment on this document?

21 A. I have no particular comment to make. But at the very beginning

22 of the attack zone of responsibility was assigned to the members of the

23 Zepa SJB, and the situation continued in that way until the very end?

24 Q. During this period of time, on the 30th of October --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. -- 1994, there was no combat activity on the part of the army of

3 Republika Srpska, was there?

4 A. No, there wasn't, apart from sporadic fire, but this was quite

5 rare.

6 Q. Could we say that members of the Republika Srpska army respected

7 the agreement on the safe haven?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could we have a look at the very same document, page 4. Yes,

10 that's right. It's the second paragraph. Please return to the beginning

11 of the document. The beginning of the page. Thank you.

12 Have a look at paragraph 2 where Mr. Sahic says the following, and

13 the document is addressed to the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic

14 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I quote: "It's my duty to inform you that

15 the cause of such a situation is the objective and faulty information

16 provided to the Presidency -- is the unobjective and the faulty

17 information of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

18 and its highest organs as well as the main committee of the SJN [as

19 interpreted] in Sarajevo with regard to the situation in Zepa. And this

20 was done by Avdo Palic, commander of the brigade that is present here, and

21 Dr. Hajlic [phoen] Becir, president of the Repljak [phoen] Club in

22 Sarajevo."

23 Sir, could we agree that the conclusion that we could draw from

24 this is that the commander of the Zepa Brigade, Avdo Palic, wasn't

25 informing his superior command, the Main Staff of the ABiH, on the actual

1 situation in Zepa?

2 A. I don't really know what sort of reports it concerned. One should

3 probably have to read through the entire document that given what is

4 stated, well, it seems that that's how it is.

5 Q. The chief of the Security Service was being constantly obstructed,

6 we will put it in this way, by the command and by the commander, Avdo

7 Palic?

8 A. Well, more or less.

9 Q. Could one say that Mr. Palic was the be all and end all when it

10 came to what happened in Zepa?

11 A. To a large extent, yes.

12 Q. Could we have a look at 5D225, 5D225.

13 Sir, this document was issued by commander Sead Delic, a

14 brigadier, and the heading says the army of the Republic of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina, 2nd Corps command. So it was issued by its commander, in

16 Tuzla on the 9th July 1995. It's addressed to the 28th Division and TO

17 the command of the 285th East Bosnia Light Brigade in Zepa. The document

18 states, "On the basis of your document highly confidential number

19 08-22-143/95 and with regard to taking weapons under UN control, I hereby

20 order --" rather, I apologise. "By an order of the Main Staff of the ABiH

21 highly confidential number 1/825-1010 dated the 9th of July, 1995 in item

22 3 it is explicitly ordered that weapons should be taken and the aggressor

23 should be confronted by using all means at your disposal in order to

24 protect the population."

25 Do you know anything about this document, sir?

1 A. No, it's the first time I've seen it.

2 Q. Could we agree that on the 9th of July no combat operations had

3 commenced around Zepa?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we see 5D259.

6 Q. Have a look at the heading of the document. It says the Republic

7 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Zepa municipality, War Presidency, the date,

8 5th of May, 1995 addressed to the government of the Republic of the BiH

9 federation in Sarajevo. It's for the attention of the minister, Dr. Hasan

10 Muratovic. And it goes on to say that the subject of this document is

11 social evacuation from Zepa. I'll quote part of document which states the

12 following: "Out of the total number of inhabitants of Zepa, 65 per cent

13 are refugees who, on the whole, came from the territory of the

14 municipality of Han Pijesak, Rogatica, Visegrad and Vlasenica."

15 Would you agree with that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you also agree that -- or would you also agree with the fact

18 mentioned that states the following: "Given the possibility for

19 accommodation and the supply of food in Zepa, most of them live in very

20 poor conditions. And it's necessary to emphasise the fact that some of

21 the elderly and some women and children in other free areas of the

22 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, have sons, daughters and husbands who

23 have appropriate accommodation, whose status has been regulated. That

24 part of the population exerts pressure on the government in Zepa and

25 they're asking for the possibility of being evacuated to other parts of

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would you also agree that a request was made upon that population,

4 or rather that that population requested that negotiations should be

5 carried out at the local level with Serbian officer Milan Pacanac to

6 discuss social evacuation from Zepa and that negotiations were scheduled

7 for the 10th of May, 1995?

8 A. I am not aware of that, this is the first time I hear of it.

9 Q. In any case you are not disputing the fact that there was a wish

10 or rather an intention of the population that not hail from the territory

11 of Zepa to be evacuated to other areas under the control of the BiH army

12 where they had other members of their families residing?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see document 5D244.

15 Q. In the heading of the document you can see that the command of the

16 28th Division sent this document on the 27th of May, 1995, to the command

17 of the 285th East Bosnian Light Infantry Brigade for the attention of the

18 commander in Zepa. And this is an order. "The command of all units on

19 the strength of the 28th Division of the army are duty-bound to take all

20 the necessary measures in order to prevent members of the army and

21 civilian persons in their intention to leave Srebrenica and Zepa."

22 Do you know anything about this order?

23 A. Yesterday we touched upon this question. I don't know anything

24 officially.

25 Q. It says further on in this order, "All necessary measures should

1 be taken in order to prevent the departure of organised groups in the

2 direction of Kladanj, Tuzla or Serbia. You are duty-bound to gather

3 intelligence on individuals or groups which are getting ready to leave,

4 and institute measures against such individuals, group in order to prevent

5 their departure. You are also duty-bound to provide the command of the

6 division and the Public Security Services about any such intelligence that

7 you gather."

8 Did your service ever receive this dispatch?

9 A. I don't know that it did. If it had, I'm sure that we would have

10 been informed about this.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Do you know that the civilian population of Srebrenica and Zepa

14 did go to Serbia?

15 A. Nobody from Zepa. And, as for Srebrenica, I don't know.

16 Q. Do you know that on the 2nd of August, 1995, about 860 people left

17 Zepa, they were all able-bodied men and they all went to Serbia?

18 A. No. I apologise. Can you repeat the date once again, please?

19 Q. The 2nd August, and thereafter?

20 A. Yes, that's okay.

21 Q. Sir, as you are looking at this order, you can conclude that it is

22 contrary to the wish expressed by the population of Zepa and Srebrenica

23 who wanted to leave the area and join their families?

24 A. Yes, but the departure for Serbia took place only after the fall

25 of Zepa.

1 Q. The question was whether you knew that over 800 people left Zepa

2 after the 2nd of August, and went to Serbia, and you said that you are

3 aware of that. However, my next question was this: The order that we

4 have just spoken about, dated 27 May, that you still have on the screen

5 before you, was it contrary to the desire and wish expressed by the

6 population of Zepa, in which 65 per cent were refugees, wanted to leave

7 the area but were prevented from doing so? Actually, this order prevents

8 people from leaving?

9 A. Yes, to a certain extent, in a certain way.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at another

11 document, please. 5D235.

12 Q. In the heading of this order dated 17 June, it says, "The command

13 of the 28th Division," and this order was sent to the command of the 285th

14 Zepa Brigade. In the first paragraph of this order it says as

15 follows: "The command of the 285th IBLBR shall undertake all the necessary

16 operative measures through the organs of military security of the brigade,

17 and it will cooperate with the public security station of Zepa in order to

18 prevent military persons and civilians from leaving the free territories

19 of Srebrenica, Zepa, and from crossing over to the free territories of

20 Kladanj and Tuzla. It will also prevent all attempts by these people to

21 leave in the direction of Serbia."

22 Did the command of the 285th Brigade ever deliver such an order to

23 you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Is this order also in contradiction with the wish expressed by the

1 refugee population of Zepa to leave the area?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Witness, I have no more questions for you.

4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, this

5 completes my cross-examination of this witness.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

7 That leaves us with the Pandurevic Defence teams. Mr. Sarapa.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. I have only a few questions. First of all, can you agree with me

12 that Zepa fell on the 24th of July, and that is when the evacuation

13 started?

14 A. This was 12 years ago, you see, but I believe you're right.

15 Q. Can you agree with me that the evacuation finished on the 27th of

16 July of the same year?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you also agree -- could we please go into private session for

19 my third question?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. Let's go into private session,

21 please.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Since you allow for the possibility that the evacuation started on

7 the 24th of July, when Zepa fell, I would like to remind you that in your

8 statement given to the OTP on the 23rd of March of this year, when you

9 spoke about the fall of Zepa in item 6 you said this: "[In English] Zepa

10 fell and the evacuations started."

11 [Interpretation] Can you confirm the accuracy of this?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

14 further questions for this witness. Just one thing, please. I would like

15 to draw your attention to one thing in the record. While my colleague

16 Petrusic was examining the witness, on page 23, line 21, he was talking

17 about a document which contained the name Omer Stambolic which should have

18 been recorded in that way. However, the record is wrong, and it reflects

19 as Momir Stanovic. If this means anything, I would kindly ask the Trial

20 Chamber to move for the correction to be made to the transcript.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that correct, Witness?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So the correction will be affected.

24 I thank you, Mr. Sarapa. That concludes the cross-examinations.

25 Is there re-examination, Mr. Elderkin?

1 MR. ELDERKIN: A few questions, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

3 MR. ELDERKIN: For the first question may I ask to go into private

4 session, please.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 MR. ELDERKIN:

21 Q. Do you recall if any of the civilian population in the enclave

22 being killed or injured by Serb actions during 1994 or in 1995, before the

23 final attack?

24 A. Yes. A citizen by the name of Osman Torlak, but I can't remember

25 whether this was in 1994. It was probably in 1994.

1 Q. Can you say anything about whether the Serb -- Bosnian Serb forces

2 adhered to the no-firing rule against the enclave?

3 A. I've already said that they mostly did.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrusic.

5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] My objection was about the

6 witness's answer. I was just going to say that he has already answered

7 that question on his examination-in-chief, and one of my questions was

8 whether the Serb forces honoured the cease-fire, and he confirmed that

9 they did.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 Do you wish to comment on that Mr. Elderkin?

12 MR. ELDERKIN: I can move on. I have a couple of other questions,

13 but could I ask -- there is a document I would like to show, which isn't

14 on e-court, but I have a hard copy in a perhaps could be put on the ELMO.

15 I also have copies for the Defence teams in English and in B/C/S.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That arises from which part --

17 MR. ELDERKIN: It arises, Mr. President in relation to the

18 questions on the smuggling or transport of fuel into the enclave and who

19 might have been controlling that process.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's properly in order. Go ahead.

21 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.

22 Q. Witness, could I ask you, please, to --

23 A. [In English] Yes, sir.

24 Q. -- read out the text in that document?

25 A. It is not very legible, but I'll try. "Pursuant to your document

1 number 16/18/249, dated 18 June 1995, the needs of the Ukraine units in

2 the sector of Zepa, including foods and fuel should be met. We inform you

3 that in agreement with the commander of the Ukrainian units we have taken

4 five litres, I suppose half of the allowed quantity for the purposes of

5 our brigade, commander Major Rajko Kusic".

6 MR. JOSSE: The English translation we've just been given, the

7 official one, is -- has a significant difference to what has just come

8 across in translation. We've heard the word...

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, shall we discuss this with the witness

10 removing --

11 MR. JOSSE: I've got no difficulty with the witness keeping his

12 earphones on. The translation just mentioned the word "food" this

13 translation doesn't mention the word "food" that's the difference.

14 Perhaps it could be clarified, please.

15 MR. ELDERKIN: I'll be happy to ask for any portion of it to be

16 reread, or for a copy -- I have a spare copy perhaps that could be given

17 to the translation booth, if that would help.

18 MR. JOSSE: Yes, I'm not sure why my learned friend -- I'm not

19 criticising him, asked the witness to read the document out. Yesterday I

20 was rightly told not to do that by the interpreters because they don't

21 have the advantage of having the official translation in front of them and

22 that's where the difficulty arises.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that the word "food" is

24 not in the original text. The interpreter has misheard the witness on

25 this occasion.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So makes it even more complicated in a way, and

2 resolves the problem. So I take it, and I want a confirmation of this and

3 I'm going to ask the witness again.

4 Witness, when you read this document, is there any mention of food

5 in it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In one part it says, "In addition to

7 other goods," which may imply food. This is also a word that can be

8 interpreted as "food."

9 JUDGE AGIUS: In the English text we have "with other provisions,"

10 so that covers it.

11 All right. Are you both happy, Mr. Josse, and Mr. Elderkin, on

12 this.

13 MR. JOSSE: I have no further comment.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 Mr. Elderkin.

16 MR. ELDERKIN: Could I also ask that the top of the document be

17 shown on the ELMO, just the section that shows the addressee. I'll go

18 ahead and read the English for the sake of clarity.

19 Q. Witness, at the top you see that the document is addressed from

20 the commander of the 1st Podrinske LPBR and is dated 23rd of June, 1995.

21 Can I also ask you to see that the document seems to be addressed to

22 General Mladic, indicated of the VRS, the Republika Srpska army. Do you

23 know, or do you recall learning from UNPROFOR troops in the enclave

24 whether the VRS was involved in sanctioning shipments of fuel into the

25 enclave?

1 MR. JOSSE: Objection. Leading question, in my submission.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is a leading question, and you are on

3 recross [sic]. So you may perhaps wish to either drop it completely or

4 rephrase it.

5 MR. ELDERKIN: If I may rephrase, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see how you will rephrase it.

7 MR. ELDERKIN:

8 Q. Reading this document, do you know anything about the process by

9 which fuel was authorised to enter the enclave?

10 A. It arrived in UNPROFOR vehicles to meet their needs. But they

11 also sold certain quantities, I suppose if they had any surplus.

12 Q. Do you know if the Serbs were getting any of the fuel?

13 A. I don't know that they received fuel, but I know that they took

14 certain quantities from all the humanitarian aid convoys and they would

15 keep those quantities for themselves and they would let the rest through

16 to the demilitarised zone.

17 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you. Could I ask for one last document to be

18 shown to the witness. Again, I'm afraid this is not in e-court. So I

19 have a hard copy of it.

20 Q. In the document that I showed you just now, there was a reference

21 to order 249 of 18th of June, and the document now on the ELMO is the

22 order with that reference number of 18th of June, 1995. And again, this

23 is a VRS document.

24 MR. ELDERKIN: Could you show, please, the last page at the end.

25 Q. And this is a document signed, "standing in for Chief of Staff",

1 Colonel Radivoje Miletic. Could I ask to go to the -- I see the second

2 last paragraph is on the screen, so that's fine. If I read out the

3 following in English: "I demand a detailed control of all vehicles,

4 including the inspection of cargo. Pay special attention to the fuel in

5 the tanks, and the fuel being brought into the enclaves. Check the

6 documents and the identity of all persons on board. Make a list of their

7 names and their ID cards in order to ensure that the persons who enter the

8 enclaves must leave the enclaves upon completion of their task."

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Petrusic.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my objection goes to

11 the part of the Prosecutor's interpretation of this document when he

12 says "stands in for the Chief of Staff." In the handwritten part of the

13 text at the end, those of us who read the text in Serbian, we cannot read

14 this. There is an abbreviation, but it remains for us to interpret that

15 abbreviation.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is off.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: It's difficult for me to follow like this, because

18 although I can follow what Mr. Elderkin said, I don't know the

19 corresponding word in your language that you are referring to, or the

20 phrase that you are referring to. So you need to indicate that in the

21 first place. He is saying that that is not correct.

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The second page of the document,

23 the one that is on the screen now, above the incoming stamp containing

24 dates, there are three handwritten lines. In the first handwritten line

25 it says "standing in for US" or "NS". In other words, this abbreviation

1 could be either "US" or "NS" but the Prosecutor purports that this stands

2 for the Chief of Staff. We can't see it in this document. It's not that

3 clear to us.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: What would "NS" mean?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I could agree that this might mean

7 Chief of Staff, but in the course of the examination of the witness

8 yesterday my colleague, Mr. Josse, found himself in a similar situation

9 and he was not allowed to interpret an abbreviation.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But my question is, what would "NS" stand for? What

11 would "US" stand for?

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I am telling you that "NS" could

13 stand for Chief of Staff.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And "US"?

15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] "In the staff."

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Would "standing in the staff" make any -- any

17 sense? What's the next word, the one in the middle? If anyone can read

18 it for me.

19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] "Colonel."

20 JUDGE AGIUS: "Colonel," okay.

21 Yes, I see Mr. McCloskey wanting to join in the fun.

22 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: This will be an issue that when we get to it will

24 of course be an issue you will get lots of information on. I may have

25 even mentioned this in my opening statement but --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But I don't think it should be stated in the

2 presence of the witness. Let's move on, let's proceed. And then of

3 course your position is -- Mr. Petrusic, your position, and that of your

4 client is reserved on this issue. But we do have what purports to be an

5 official translation of this document, which says, "Standing in for Chief

6 of Staff," and we have to proceed on that until we receive proof of the

7 contrary, or evidence to the contrary.

8 Yes, Mr. Elderkin.

9 MR. ELDERKIN: If I may return to my questioning of the witness.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I have forgotten what it was, actually. I

11 think you need to return to it.

12 MR. ELDERKIN: I think it would be help if I reread the brief

13 paragraph in order to frame the question.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I said I don't remember in any case.

15 MR. ELDERKIN:

16 Q. Witness, in relation to the following paragraph, "I demand a

17 detailed control of all vehicles, including the inspection of cargo, pay

18 special attention to the fuel in the fuel tanks, and the fuel being

19 brought into the enclaves. Check the documents and the identity of all

20 persons on board, make list of their names and their ID cards in order to

21 ensure that the persons who enter the enclaves must leave the enclaves

22 upon completion of the task."

23 Witness, can you tell us if -- what is your understanding of the

24 inspection processes that were carried out on the convoys on the Serb --

25 Bosnian Serb army side before they arrived in the enclave?

1 A. Well, this is a very broad question, and it concerns broad

2 authority, but they probably had full control of what was entering and

3 exiting the Zepa demilitarised zone.

4 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Your Honours. No further questions.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.

6 Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, will you allow me to

8 ask some additional questions that concern this document?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Such as what?

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The questions would be about

11 whether the witness has any knowledge about the controls being carried out

12 on a regular basis in order to prevent weapons from being illegally

13 brought into the zone. And perhaps there's something that is not included

14 in this list here, so it would be about this document.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that arises necessarily out of this

16 document. It could have been put, the questions could have been put on

17 cross-examination. And similar questions were put on cross-examinations

18 by others in any case. But I still need to make sure that my colleagues

19 are in agreement with me. Okay. It seems we are unanimous on this.

20 Thank you.

21 Witness, we don't have any further questions for you, which means

22 that you are free to go wherever you wish to go. Our staff will assist

23 you. On behalf of the Trial Chamber and also the Tribunal, I wish to

24 thank you for having come over and for having testified. And on behalf of

25 everyone, I wish you a safe journey back home.

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's start with the Prosecution

4 exhibits. Mr. Elderkin.

5 MR. ELDERKIN: I would ask to be admitted the witness's statement,

6 P02486, and also the two documents used on redirect examination.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. They don't seem to have -- it's P02486, ERN

8 in the English 0607-3300 to 3307; B/C/S 3300 to 3307. Any objections?

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence objects,

10 not to the contents of this document, and I think that we can agree with

11 the Prosecution that this signature standing in for the Chief of Staff,

12 Colonel Radivoje Miletic, I think we can agree that this is not the

13 handwriting of Colonel Radivoje Miletic, so it's not his signature.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's no good reason for not admitting. I mean you

15 will have every chance of contesting it in due course.

16 Anyway, these two documents do not have a 65 ter number. So I

17 think we need to refer to the ERN number, and even there I have a

18 difficulty because I have the ERN number for one of them in the B/C/S, but

19 I don't have -- or I can't read because it's not legible, the

20 corresponding ERN in -- for the English version. I'm referring to the

21 first of the two documents that you used, Mr. Elderkin, with the witness

22 on recross [sic]. The B/C/S version of which carries ERN number

23 0431-7318. Could you kindly give us the corresponding English ERN? It's

24 the same one? All right. Okay.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, if I may just clarify...

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We will come to the second in due course. So this

5 one, we are referring only for the time being to document with ERN

6 0431-7318. Any objections from any of the Defence teams? We hear none.

7 Now we come to the other document that the Prosecution made use of

8 with the witness on recross [sic]. The B/C/S and the English text have

9 the same ERN, and that is 0425-4341 to 342.

10 Mr. Petrusic, could you specify your objection, please?

11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'll act in accordance with your

12 suggestion. The essence of my objection was that the signature that this

13 document bears is not Radivoje Miletic's signature, but the Defence in no

14 way contests the contents of the document.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So the document is admitted, unless there is

16 some other objection from the Defence. Of course the question of the

17 authenticity of the signature that appears on the same document remains

18 unprejudiced, is not prejudiced in other words, by the fact that the

19 document is admitted. All right.

20 Mr. Josse -- I take it there are no further documents that you

21 wish to tender.

22 MR. ELDERKIN: No further documents, Mr. President, simply a

23 clarification on the second document which I should probably have said a

24 couple of minutes before, but that it was approved for the 65 ter list by

25 the 6th of December decision, if that's a useful orientation.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's better. Thank you. Three

2 documents are admitted, yeah. And none will be under seal because we did

3 not actually issue protective measures. So they will remain.

4 Mr. Josse, you have distributed a list. I'll see whether we can

5 dispense of having to go through it. It has been circulated.

6 Mr. Elderkin, I'll start with you. Do you have any objections to the

7 admission of any of those documents?

8 MR. ELDERKIN: We don't, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any of the other Defence teams wish to object

10 to the admission of any of these documents? None.

11 So they are all admitted, unless you wish to state anything

12 further.

13 MR. JOSSE: There is something I would like to state if I may.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.

15 MR. JOSSE: That relates to the issue I alluded to at the

16 beginning of today's session. Because now might be a convenient time to

17 deal with this.

18 As I have already stated, there were quite a large number of

19 documents that go to the issue of weapons being received in the enclave,

20 in fact it relates to both enclaves, for what it's worth. And the

21 Prosecution have agreed, as I understand it, that these can be introduced

22 as a batch in order to save, as I have already said, significant time in

23 putting them to any given witness. I should know, there are about 18

24 documents in total.

25 We provided the Prosecution and all my learned friends not just

1 with the documents, but also with a schedule which I could hand to the

2 Court. I am not asking the schedule itself be admitted as an exhibit.

3 However, it might prove a useful aide-memoire to the Chamber, but it has

4 no evidential significance whatsoever. Let me make that clear. I've been

5 asked to do that by the Prosecution and I'm happy to do that. If we could

6 proceed in that way, I would be very grateful. The schedule also contains

7 the proposed exhibit numbers and probably little more need be said other

8 than that they then be admitted, subject to the view of Your Honours, of

9 course, into the evidence.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse.

11 Mr. Elderkin.

12 MR. ELDERKIN: Insofar as the admission of the documents, as we

13 have indicated to my learned friend, then we have no objection. We would

14 have no objection if he had chosen to use those documents with the

15 witness, but we fully appreciate that the time saving is a great grace.

16 To the extent that it's our position that these are concerning the

17 agreed fact of the transportation of arms into the enclave and the

18 helicopters were breaching -- Muslim helicopters were breaching the no-fly

19 zone, we don't see this goes to a contested matter, but in terms of the

20 schedule we don't object to that. We would consider it to be a somewhat

21 adversarial document insofar as it highlights what Defence considers

22 important in those documents, but we don't object to it being included in

23 the way that was suggested. Sorry, adjudicated facts, not agreed facts.

24 If I could make the right reference.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you very much, Mr. Elderkin.

1 Are your colleagues also familiar with this list and schedule?

2 MR. JOSSE: They have been sent the schedule. I have informed

3 them orally of what I have agreed with Mr. Elderkin. I hope they are all

4 in agreement. I apologise to them if I've put anyone in an awkward

5 position.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I am pointing this out because at the back of our

7 minds there is always this possibility that with seven accused you can

8 come to a point where there is evidence which creates a conflict of

9 interest.

10 MR. JOSSE: With the greatest of respect I agree entirely with

11 Your Honour and indeed I mean those issues as to whether defendants are

12 entitled to have bilateral agreements with the Prosecution. I certainly

13 don't want to go there at the moment. That's a difficult jurisprudential

14 issue or perhaps practical issue as well. I think we are all in agreement

15 that these documents can be introduced. Could I hand out the schedule.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. Madam Usher, could you assist him.

17 MR. JOSSE: As I have already said, I regard this as no more than

18 a working document and if at any stage any of the advocates in this case

19 wish to make some corrections or additions, then that would be quite

20 understandable, and subject to those additions or amendments being on the

21 face of the document, of course we would agree to that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's do it in two stages. I will start first

23 with the first list that you distributed, to which I hear no objection,

24 neither from the Prosecution nor from the other Defence teams.

25 Since we are talking of a considerable number of documents now, I

1 think I will just mention the 65 ter number: 6D39, 6D47, 6D49, 6D51,

2 6D69, 6D71, 6D72, 6D73, 6D77, 6D78, 6D81, 6D82, 6D97.

3 Have -- all these seem to have been translation except one, and

4 that is 6D78. So for the time being, that will be marked for

5 identification, until translation thereof is made available.

6 Now we come to the second batch of exhibits. The understanding is

7 this: At present I am not hearing any objections, either from the

8 Prosecution or from any of the other Defence teams, but I will give one

9 day's grace to members of the Defence teams if any one of you wish to make

10 submissions in relation to the admissibility of any of these documents

11 that I am now going to mention. They are all being admitted with this

12 caveat. 6D52, 6D53, 6D96, 5D7, 6D55, 6D56, 6D57, 6D58, 6D59, 6D60, 6D61,

13 6D62, 6D63, 6D64, 6D65, 6D66, 6D67, 6D95, and that's the end. I am not in

14 a position to know whether all these have been translated into English.

15 If any of them haven't, then they will be marked for identification. You

16 need to identify any that have not yet been translated, Madam Registrar,

17 and they will be marked for identification pending translation thereof.

18 All others will be admitted with the caveat I mentioned a few minutes ago.

19 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Perhaps we could go

20 into private session for one moment, please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means. Let's go into private session for a

22 short while.

23 [Private session]

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22 [Open session]

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We come to the -- I see you still standing,

25 Mr. Josse.

1 MR. JOSSE: Partly out of a matter of courtesy, but also simply to

2 say, to thank the Chamber and all my learned friends for their cooperation

3 in this regard.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And we thank you in turn, Mr. Josse. The Miletic

5 Defence team, I understand you have several documents you wish to tender,

6 you have also distributed a list. So I will try and adopt the same

7 procedures, sparing us having to go through it in detail. Is there any

8 objection to the admission of any of these documents on the part of the

9 Prosecution?

10 MR. ELDERKIN: No, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: On part of any of the other Defence teams? We hear

12 none. So I am just going to mention the 65 ter number and then state

13 which ones will remain marked for identification for the time being.

14 5D223, 5D237, 5D233, 5D218, 5D225, 5D235, 5D229, 5D227, 5D259, 5D241 and

15 5D244. Of these, only 5D237, 5D233, 5D241 will -- are admitted

16 immediately. The others will remain marked for identification pending the

17 translation thereof.

18 And that concludes this witness.

19 Now, before -- yes, I saw you standing, Mr. Thayer.

20 MR. THAYER: I was just going to switch places with Mr. Elderkin

21 for the next witness, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We will soon be admitting in the courtroom Witness

25 number 49, for whom the Prosecution have sought three protective

1 measures. Correct me if I'm wrong. Pseudonym, facial distortion, and

2 also voice distortion in this case.

3 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That has been objected to by the Defence of General

5 Gvero. Yesterday, in speaking on the protective measures for this witness

6 we've just finished, Mr. Josse also stated a few things in relation to

7 this next witness. As we did yesterday, we are inviting you now to tell

8 us which issues or which questions you would like us to address to the

9 witness.

10 Mr. Josse.

11 MR. JOSSE: Exactly the same. The submissions I made yesterday

12 really apply to both of these witnesses.

13 The issue as to whether there is any possibility of the witness

14 accepting facial and voice distortion but not pseudonym is particularly

15 pertinent to him, in our submission. Other than that, if I may, Your

16 Honour, with respect, ask the questions yesterday that we would have

17 asked, had we been in the position to do so, and there is nothing more I

18 can add.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. I think I will take on board

20 Judge Kwon's suggestion at this time and have the break now. All right.

21 So Madam Usher, could -- we'll interview him in private session as

22 we did with the previous one. So -- or in closed session, basically.

23 MR. JOSSE: I know that so far as this witness is concerned, I

24 will have a short submission to make after the Court has heard the

25 evidence.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Josse.

2 [Closed session]

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16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We have received Mr. Beara's waiver.

18 The other thing I wanted to inform you about is that, as we told

19 you we would be doing, we wrote to the President in the wake of the

20 statement that we made a few days back in relation to Ms. Condon's

21 submission, and he has sent us a reply, we just wanted to confirm that to

22 you.

23 Now, I don't think it's the case of interviewing this witness any

24 further. We'd like to hear any submissions that you may have. Or else

25 hear what I might propose on behalf of the -- because we've been

1 discussing obviously, on behalf of the Trial Chamber, as a possible

2 formula. We had in mind suggesting the granting only of facial distortion

3 and nothing else, and then perhaps, as we did yesterday, we would try to

4 avoid referring to the witness by name.

5 MR. JOSSE: I have already indicated, on behalf of our client,

6 that we have no objection to facial distortion only.

7 So far as not referring to him by name is concerned, whilst in

8 terms of actually asking questions, that is possible and indeed speaking

9 again on behalf of myself, I am more than happy to do that when I come to

10 cross-examine him. Practically, it is going to be very difficult for his

11 name not to become apparent from his evidence. Could we go into private

12 session for one moment.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go into private session for a short

14 while.

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24 JUDGE AGIUS: Would anyone else wish to make a statement or remark

25 or comment on what I stated?

1 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

2 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. If we may move into

3 private session.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

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15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, I'm going explain to the public the

17 result of our decision, because frankly, I think we could have been in

18 open session while we were doing that.

19 The result is that we are not granting all the provisional -- the

20 protective measures that have been requested by the Prosecution. We are

21 only granting face distortion, and for -- granting face distortion and

22 that's it. So we can proceed along those lines. Thank you.

23 Mr. Thayer. Perhaps for your first questions we can go into

24 private session.

25 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that.

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11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.

13 MR. THAYER:

14 Q. Sir, when you arrived in Zepa in 1993, what sort of civilian

15 authority existed there then?

16 A. Well, since before the war Zepa was just a local commune in the

17 municipality of Rogatica, there were practically no civilian authorities,

18 at least not at a high level.

19 Q. So was some sort of civilian authority established during the war,

20 sir?

21 A. Yes. Up until my arrival I believe there was a War Presidency, I

22 don't know all the details. But there were no other organised forms of

23 power, given all the events this wasn't something that anyone worked on

24 that's up until my arrival in Zepa.

25 Q. Okay. Without at this point mentioning any particular names, can

1 you please describe for the Trial Chamber, after your arrival in Zepa, how

2 was this War Presidency further established or refined? And what were its

3 functions, if you could just describe for the Court in basic terms, sir.

4 A. Well, immediately after my arrival in Zepa the Republika Srpska

5 army launched an attack. That was in the spring of 1993. And on that

6 occasion the first protected areas were established in Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina. Zepa was one such area.

8 In the spring of 1993 there was a Security Council resolution

9 which established Zepa as a protected zone, or as one of the protected

10 zones. UNPROFOR forces arrived in Zepa, Zepa was demilitarised, and

11 during that period of time the War Presidency was also established. The

12 first president of the War Presidency, who had also held that position up

13 until that point in time, suggested that I be the president of the

14 Executive Board, and at the same time a member of the War Presidency. The

15 position I held was, in fact, a position that involved organising civilian

16 life in the territory of Zepa.

17 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I -- I was hoping to avoid this. I

18 was -- wanted to go into private session for the last subject matter. If

19 I could just ask for redaction and move into private session. The portion

20 at line 70 -- I'm sorry, page 70, line 25, through page 71, line 3.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Why are you seeking that redaction?

22 MR. THAYER: Because it specifically identifies the position he

23 occupied, and I think we can navigate around that through the further

24 examination.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.

1 MR. THAYER: Simply --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, I thought you had finished. I apologise.

3 MR. THAYER: No, I had, Your Honour.

4 It's -- I had. I mean I think we can -- we can refer to his

5 position and so forth as a way of mitigating the exposure, that's all.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.

7 MR. JOSSE: It's going to be extremely difficult, and in our

8 submission it runs contrary to the decision the Chamber made earlier.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We made our position clear earlier on, Mr. Thayer,

12 that we are not granting the use of a pseudonym. And that's because we

13 are not convinced that there is justification for the granting of that

14 protective measure. Only concession that we have made about, apart from

15 the face distortion, is based on the agreement with the various Defence

16 teams that we try not to use his name. But basically, I mean, it would be

17 running contrary and would defeat the whole purpose of our decision if we

18 were even to suppress information on who -- what position he occupied,

19 what role he played. The whole purpose was to be in open session as much

20 as possible. This gentleman occupied a certain position during the

21 conflict. His evidence is necessary, is required, because you have

22 summoned him. But that's about it. I mean we have hidden his face to make

23 him feel more at ease when he travels around -- around in Bosnia, because

24 many people may be following his testimony. Some would know who he is,

25 even if we redact this and redact others. Some people would definitely

1 identify him, but many won't, and still many others won't, because they

2 won't see his face. Okay? So let's leave it at that. No redactions.

3 MR. THAYER: I appreciate the Court's consideration on that, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 MR. THAYER:

7 Q. Sir, can you continue to explain to the Trial Chamber the basic

8 functions that the War Presidency served the Zepa enclave during the time

9 that you were there?

10 A. Well, I can say that three of the main functions that I was to

11 perform, as the president of the Executive Board, are as follows:

12 Firstly, there was the organisation of the distribution of humanitarian

13 aid. I'm referring to the aid that arrived through the UNHCR. And, as

14 far as I can remember, it arrived from Belgrade for the eastern enclaves.

15 Secondly, my function was to organise the work of hospitals, of medical

16 care. And thirdly, a very important function that I had was to attempt to

17 organise the primary school, which, up until the beginning of the war, was

18 there in the area. I was involved in those activities. We established

19 other organisational units in order to carry out all these activities.

20 The civilian police was then organised in an appropriate manner. And as

21 of May 1993, until, roughly speaking, mid-1995, civilian life in Zepa was,

22 on the whole, made normal. And for the inhabitants of the area, it was

23 more or less possible for them to live there. It was bearable.

24 Q. Sir, you just referred to the civilian police. Was there somebody

25 who was in charge of that, and what was that person's name?

1 A. Should I answer that question and provide the full name of that

2 person?

3 Q. Please do.

4 A. Hurem Sahic was the chief of the police.

5 Q. Was there also a civilian protection organisation that was set up?

6 A. Yes. I failed to mention this fact because that wasn't my

7 responsibility, so to speak. There was a civilian protection force that

8 had been organised, and I think it was at the end of 1992. It was one of

9 the first groups to be organised, and it was also responsible for

10 assisting the inhabitants. And later for constructing accommodation,

11 because there were a lot of refugees in Zepa, there were far more who had

12 arrived there than there were people who actually had houses.

13 Q. What was the name of person that headed up the civilian protection

14 organisation?

15 A. Amir Imamovic is his name.

16 Q. And did the War Presidency have a president, sir? And, if so,

17 what was that person's name?

18 A. Yes. The War Presidency did have a president. He was also the

19 president of the Zepa municipality later on, because during a period of

20 time the authorities in Sarajevo recognised Zepa as a municipality. When

21 I was selected as president of the Executive Board, the president of the

22 Presidency was Mr. Benjamin Kulovac. And later there were two

23 replacements, but in May 1993 the president of the War Presidency was

24 Mr. Benjamin Kulovac.

25 Q. And how about in 1995, sir, who was the president of the War

1 Presidency?

2 A. At that time the president of the War Presidency was Mr. Mehmed

3 Hajric.

4 Q. And briefly, sir, could you describe what the duties and

5 responsibilities of the president of the War Presidency were at that time?

6 A. Well, as far as I can remember, whenever he had contact with

7 international organisations, UNPROFOR, the UNHCR, military observers,

8 Doctors Without Borders, since I think that they had their own mission in

9 Zepa for a certain period of time, whenever he had contact with those

10 organisations, he was to represent Zepa and agree on various forms of

11 assistance and so on and so forth.

12 Q. And Mr. Hajric, do you recall what his occupation was, independent

13 of being the president of the War Presidency?

14 A. Yes. He was a religious cleric, that was his profession. He was

15 a Hodja.

16 Q. And occasionally I've seen that position of president of the War

17 Presidency referred to as the mayor of Zepa. Is that a fair way to

18 describe the president of the War Presidency, sir?

19 A. Yes, that's quite right. Because that's how all the foreigners

20 who were there referred to that position.

21 Q. Now, in 1993, a census was conducted in Zepa. Can you tell the

22 Trial Chamber why that was done, sir?

23 A. When the military activities came to an end in a certain extent,

24 and humanitarian aid had been organised, it was essential to carry out a

25 census of the population in order to have a plan for the distribution of

1 the humanitarian aid, whenever it was to be delivered. So the census was

2 carried out in the villages and by visiting families.

3 Q. And approximately how many people did the census conclude lived in

4 the Zepa enclave, sir, at that time?

5 A. As far as I can remember, the first census was taken -- when the

6 first census was taken there were between eight and 9.000 inhabitants. But

7 later, due to migration, the figure in 1995 was about 7.000.

8 Q. Now, you've referred already to the declaration of Zepa as a safe

9 area, and the presence of UNPROFOR soldiers. Did you become acquainted

10 with their commander, sir?

11 A. Yes. The Ukrainian Battalion was present in Zepa. The commander

12 of the UNPROFOR mission in Zepa was Colonel Semjon Dudnik. We did meet, I

13 think he was there at the beginning in 1993. And to a certain extent we

14 cooperated right up until the end of July, 1995.

15 Q. And do you know approximately how many soldiers Colonel Dudnik

16 commanded there in Zepa?

17 A. Well, the number may have varied, but, in fact, we didn't have any

18 information on the number, on their strength, but given the way in which

19 they were organised, given the way in which the UNPROFOR mission in Zepa

20 had been organised, well my assessment would be that there were about 80

21 soldiers and officers there.

22 Q. And just in the short time we have left, sir, can you describe for

23 the Trial Chamber how those soldiers were deployed, physically, in Zepa?

24 A. The UNPROFOR forces in Zepa were based in the primary school in

25 the very centre of Zepa. There were check-points that had been set up at

1 all routes of access to the Zepa enclave. And, as far as I can remember,

2 there was one armoured vehicle at each check-point, and a permanent

3 UNPROFOR presence. In this case they were Ukrainian soldiers.

4 Q. I thank you, sir. I think we have to stop here for the evening.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Madam Usher will escort you out of the

6 courtroom. And before you leave, sir, between today and tomorrow, when we

7 hope to finish with your testimony, if we can, it's important that you do

8 not communicate or allow anyone to communicate with you to discuss the

9 subject matter of your testimony. It's very important. Thank you. May I

10 also invite the Defence teams to come back with a response tomorrow

11 morning in relation to the protective measures asked for Witness 135,

12 please. Okay. Thank you. Have a nice evening, all of you.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m., to

14 be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of March,

15 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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