Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10477

1 Wednesday, 25 April 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everybody.

7 Could you call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case

9 number IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam.

11 All the accused are here. I notice from the defence teams, the

12 absence of Mr. Krgovic. Mr. Josse?

13 MR. JOSSE: He'll be working away from the courtroom for a few

14 days, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Long cross-examinations on the horizon.

16 MR. JOSSE: That's our forte, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.

18 The witness is already in the courtroom.

19 Just one thing before we proceed. We're sitting pursuant to

20 Rule 15(a) for the first part of today's sitting. Judge Stole will join

21 us after the first break.

22 So good afternoon to you, witness.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jeremic, can you hear me? Can you hear me now?

Page 10478

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, and welcome back. We hope to

3 finish with your testimony within the next half an hour, I suppose, and

4 then you're free to go home, and I thank you for bearing with us.

5 Mr. Sarapa, you were still in possession of the floor yesterday when we

6 adjourned.

7 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa: [Continued]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not working?

10 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] No.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Is your working, Mr. Haynes? It's working now.

12 MR. HAYNES: Now it's okay.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Sarapa, and I thank the

14 technicians. Thank you.

15 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jeremic, once

16 again. Just a few more questions, without using any documents.

17 Q. You were told to write an order concerning the punishment of

18 Djokic, father and son. In that connection, did Vinko Pandurevic ever

19 address you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you recall if you wrote that order, in fact?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Do you then allow the possibility that you did not write it?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Have you ever seen the order to punish Djokic father and son

Page 10479

1 signed by Vinko Pandurevic or anyone else?

2 A. Concerning the father and son Djokic, I don't remember seeing an

3 order in writing.

4 Q. And my last question: If one takes into account that a criminal

5 act was involved in this case, that a decision to remand these people in

6 custody was taken, which is pre-criminal trial action, that it was

7 addressed to the military prosecutor's office and that you never saw that

8 order, does the possibility exist or is it a possibility that the order

9 was never written?

10 A. It is.

11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I thank you very much, and I wish you

12 a safe trip home.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Sarapa.

15 Ms. Nikolic, yesterday I got the impression from you that in the

16 wake of the Pandurevic cross-examination, you wished to put some further

17 questions to the witness; is that correct?

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. With

19 the Chamber's leave.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Is there an opposition on the part of

21 the Prosecution, Mr. Thayer?

22 MR. THAYER: No, Your Honour. It's a little unusual, but we are

23 unusual ourselves sometimes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's an unusual --

25 MR. THAYER: We've got no objection to the procedure.

Page 10480

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It's an unusual setup, and he was asked questions

2 and he answered questions relating to the accused Nikolic. After that,

3 the Nikolic Defence had concluded their cross-examination, so I think the

4 opportunity should be given, and we'll carry out from there and we'll see

5 how to regulate the proceedings after this.

6 Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

7 Yes, Mr. Pandurevic, I see you --

8 MR. HAYNES: I was simply going to say that Ms. Nikolic and I have

9 spoken about this, and in the circumstances I have no objection.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

11 Ms. Nikolic.

12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic: [Continued]

14 Q. Mr. Jeremic, good afternoon again.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. I will do my best to be very brief in my examination today. I

17 just want certain clarifications on points that remained unclear after

18 your testimony yesterday in response to the questions by Mr. Sarapa.

19 When pronouncing disciplinary measures such as military

20 detention, such measures could be decided on only by the commander or

21 deputy commander; is that the case?

22 A. If military detention is involved, the measures were decided on by

23 battalion commanders, and it was the brigade commander who decided on

24 military imprisonment. I don't remember the brigade commander deciding on

25 military detention or remand in custody.

Page 10481

1 Q. And that could be 20 to 60 days, depending on the criminal act

2 involved?

3 A. I don't know about the minimal sentence, but I know we wrote

4 orders involving up to 60 days of military prison.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic and Mr. Jeremic, please allow a short

6 pause between question and answer, because the interpreters are really

7 trying hard to catch up with you. Thank you.

8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, too.

10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Criminal reports and drafting of other documents, documents

12 involved in criminal proceedings and those necessary for the military

13 prosecutor's office were the responsibility of your service and the chief

14 of security, Drago Nikolic, was responsible for compiling such documents;

15 is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Other documents that your service for crime prevention drafted,

18 such as records on crime scene investigation, witness statements, records

19 on identification, would be signed by you or other clerks in the service

20 for crime prevention.

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown just one

23 document prescribing military prison, 3D123. We have a draft in English

24 made by our team, but we haven't got the official translation yet.

25 Q. Mr. Jeremic, I'm sorry, your answer to my previous question

Page 10482

1 concerning other documents written by your service, records of crime scene

2 investigation, records of identification, the taking of statements, et

3 cetera, would be signed by you, as the official -- as the authorised

4 officer, or clerks in the service?

5 A. But I, too, was a clerk in that service.

6 Q. Yes, but your answer is not recorded.

7 A. Yes. All these concerns also include sketches made by the

8 civilian police and the photo documentation.

9 Q. Look at the document now on the screen. Is this the format that

10 you followed? Look at the heading. Could we scroll the document to see

11 the bottom, please. Is this the type of document your service drafted?

12 A. I cannot say with certainty whether it is one of ours. It was a

13 long time ago.

14 Q. But it looks like the format that you used?

15 A. Scroll it back up, please. It was a long time ago. I cannot give

16 you an answer with absolute certainty either way, and I am not familiar

17 with this name here.

18 Q. That was January 1994 or 1995. The year is not clear. Maybe you

19 didn't draft it at all.

20 A. Maybe I was absent then.

21 Q. Maybe it was written by somebody else in your service?

22 A. Anything is possible.

23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

24 questions.

25 Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 10483

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic. Is there re-examination,

2 Mr. Thayer? Yesterday, you said you had a few questions.

3 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

5 MR. THAYER: I stated I had three questions. And with the leave

6 of the Court and consent of my friends, I'd ask to reopen my redirect just

7 to ask this witness what his age was. I typically ask our witnesses how

8 old they are, and I failed to do that. And if -- if there's consent from

9 my friends and leave of the Court, I'd just like to ask the witness what

10 his age is.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

12 MR. THAYER: I thank the Court and my colleagues.

13 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

14 Q. Sir, could you just tell the Court how old you are, please?

15 A. Fifty-two.

16 Q. And I just have two questions for you, sir. You testified

17 yesterday about a 24-hour period of time where you were assigned to guard

18 the gate at Standard; do you remember that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You also recall an occasion when some of your colleagues were sent

21 to Orahovac to guard prisoners at the school there?

22 A. I didn't know then who was going to Orahovac.

23 Q. The -- my question is, though: Do you recall an occasion when

24 some of your colleagues were sent to the school at Grbavci to guard some

25 prisoners, whether you remember their names or not?

Page 10484

1 A. I really didn't know where they were going.

2 Q. Okay. But at some point, did you become aware that some of your

3 colleagues had been sent to guard prisoners at the Grbavci school?

4 A. I learned I don't know how much later after that guard duty at the

5 gate. It could be five, ten, or fifteen days. I said as much yesterday.

6 There was stories making the rounds within the barracks as to what

7 happened, what had happened there.

8 Q. Okay. So my only question on this topic, sir, is: Do you recall

9 whether you were on this 24-hour guard duty at the same time that your

10 colleagues were guarding prisoners in Orahovac or was this a different

11 time? That's my only question on that issue.

12 A. Well, almost the entire military police company was absent. Where

13 they were, I really don't know, and that's when I stayed at the gate, and

14 that is why I stood at the gate in the first place, because otherwise I

15 never stood guard at the gate.

16 Q. Okay. Now, sir, did the military prosecutor's office have a

17 representative stationed with your crime prevention service unit or

18 detailed to your unit?

19 A. I wouldn't know that.

20 Q. Okay. Do you have any recollection of any representative from the

21 military prosecutor's office ever being stationed with your unit or

22 detailed to your unit?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay. So my last question, sir, is: In your experience, how

25 would the military prosecutor's office or a military court become informed

Page 10485

1 of a potential criminal offence being committed by a Zvornik Brigade

2 soldier?

3 A. I know that our service, the one I worked in, notified the

4 military prosecutor's office of any criminal acts in the form of criminal

5 reports. Whether anybody else reported such things to the military

6 prosecutor's office, I'm not aware.

7 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Judge Kwon, Judge Prost.

9 Mr. Jeremic, there are no further questions for you, which means

10 your testimony finishes here, and our staff will assist you. You're free

11 to go home, and before you leave the courtroom, I wish to thank you for

12 having come over to give testimony, and also on behalf of everyone, wish

13 you a safe journey back home.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and goodbye.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents, exhibits.

17 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, the Prosecution has distributed its

18 tender sheet. We would offer the exhibits listed thereon, with the

19 exception of numbers 387 and 388. Okay.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have it.

21 MR. THAYER: You don't have it. Then I'll just read the 65 ter

22 numbers, then. Okay. And we'll be working off the exhibit list, then,

23 Mr. President.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

25 MR. THAYER: If we're looking at the exhibit list for this

Page 10486

1 witness, the Prosecution would tender the entire list, with the exception

2 of 65 ter numbers 387 and 388.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So essentially we're talking of 385 -- 65 ter

4 numbers 385, 386, 389, 390, 391, 392, 393, 394; correct?

5 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And all these documents have corresponding

7 translation into English?

8 MR. THAYER: Indeed they do, sir.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections on the part of any of the Defence

10 teams?

11 We hear none, so these documents are being admitted. Now we come

12 to Defence documents. Mr. Zivanovic, do you have any documents you would

13 like to tender? Ms. Nikolic? Mr. Meek, I don't suppose you have, either.

14 MR. MEEK: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Nikolic.

16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have two documents

17 to tender, 3D122, that's the sketch that the witness drew during proofing,

18 and 123, the one that was shown to the witness today, 3D123.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And this last document, you said, has been

20 translated by yourselves? We do not have an official translation of it?

21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It's a

22 provisional translation to use today. But as soon as the official one is

23 available, we will tender it. This was just a temporary thing to enable

24 us to work.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection on the part of the Prosecution or any

Page 10487

1 of the Defence teams?

2 MR. THAYER: None, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And I hear no objections from the other Defence

4 teams, so 3D122 is admitted, 3D123 will be marked for identification

5 pending an official translation thereof, upon which it will automatically

6 be introduced in the list of admitted documents.

7 Okay. Ms. Nikolic -- sorry. I was going to refer you to the

8 corrections that you wanted to make to the -- to yesterday's transcript,

9 but perhaps I will ask Mr. Sarapa first if he has any documents to tender.

10 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Those are the documents that exist

11 in B/C/S and in English, formation 7D361, 7D370, and P385. To be marked

12 for identification, since we haven't got the translation yet, we tender

13 7D356, and that's all.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So as I -- if I understood you, well, the one that is

15 still not yet translated is this last one, 7D356; correct?

16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes. It's a document that -- for

17 which translation is pending. It's the only one that hasn't been

18 translated.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. My attention is being drawn at P385 has

20 already been admitted as a Prosecution document.

21 MR. THAYER: And, Mr. President, as has 7D361 as well under a

22 different "P" number.

23 JUDGE KWON: Did you not use 7D311?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa.

25 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't want to tender it.

Page 10488

1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Thayer, what is the corresponding

3 exhibit number for 7D361?

4 MR. THAYER: I'm looking at that right now, Your Honour. That

5 is -- with the Court's indulgence --

6 MR. HAYNES: It's P407, I think.

7 MR. THAYER: P386.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: In view of that, do you wish to introduce it,

9 Mr. Sarapa, nonetheless as your document? I don't think there is a need

10 for that.

11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] In that case, there is no need to

12 have it admitted as our document.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That leaves us with 7D370. Any objection,

14 Mr. Thayer?

15 MR. THAYER: None, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Any of the other Defence teams, any objection?

17 None. It is so admitted. 7D356, any objection?

18 MR. THAYER: None, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Any other -- or any objection from any other Defence

20 teams? None. So this will be marked for identification, pending

21 translation, upon the same terms as usual.

22 All right. Thank you. I think we can now move to Ms. Nikolic

23 once more. Yesterday, before we adjourned, Ms. Nikolic, you said that you

24 had noticed several mistakes in the transcript.

25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 10489

1 One error has been removed in the edited version, in the revised version

2 of the transcript, and the others have been listed in paper that we sent

3 to the legal officer, so I don't believe we need spend more time on it

4 now.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Very kind of you, Ms. Nikolic. Thank you.

6 Mr. Thayer, will you be in charge of the next witness?

7 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. McCloskey will, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Can we proceed? So let's bring the next

9 witness in, please.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we just hold off for just one second? I

11 just wanted to alert the Court to just small issues.

12 Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go into private session just for a

15 second?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's go into private session for a

17 short while, please.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10490

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll see if any specific request is made by

25 the witness, in which case we will hear submissions. Okay. I think you

Page 10491

1 may proceed to escort the witness in the courtroom, please.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He's never given evidence before, has he?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Galic.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to welcome

9 you. You're about to start your testimony. Before you do so, our rules

10 require that you make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the

11 truth. The text you already have in your hands. Please read it out loud,

12 and that will be your solemn undertaking with us, that you will be

13 speaking the truth.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I ask you to make yourself comfortable.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Have a seat, please.

21 The procedure here is like in most criminal courts. The

22 Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey, will be putting some questions to you, and he

23 will then be followed by some of the Defence teams on cross-examination.

24 I don't expect your testimony to finish today, but we'll try and do our

25 best.

Page 10492

1 Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Galic.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Can you first begin by spelling your name for us? Tell us your

7 full name and spell your last.

8 A. Mihajlo Galic.

9 Q. Can you spell the last just so we get it right in the record?

10 A. G-a-l-i-c.

11 Q. And when were you born?

12 A. I was born on the 13th of February, 1951.

13 Q. And where was that?

14 A. I was born in Celopek, Zvornik municipality.

15 Q. And where did you grow up?

16 A. I grew up in Celopek and Zvornik.

17 Q. And can you give us a brief outline of your educational

18 background?

19 A. I completed elementary school and the secondary teachers college,

20 and then I started working. And while working, I graduated from the

21 higher school of economics. That's as far as my education is concerned.

22 Q. When did you graduate from the economics school with that degree?

23 A. I completed this school of economics in 1985.

24 Q. And what did you do professionally after that?

25 A. I worked as a teacher in the elementary school in Zvornik, and

Page 10493

1 then in the municipality authorities of Zvornik, and then again in the

2 elementary school in Zvornik. And after the war, after 1996, between the

3 22nd of April, 1996, and the 1st of August, 1998, I worked in the

4 transportation company called Drinatrans. And from the 1st of August of

5 1998 until the 22nd of March, 2004, I have been a professional soldier in

6 the army of Republika Srpska. And then is when my years of service ended.

7 Q. And right now are you working at all or are you retired?

8 A. I'm not working. I'm retired. I have been retired since the 22nd

9 of March, 2004.

10 Q. Can you give us an outline of your military career? We just saw

11 the end of it. Can you start at the beginning, perhaps if you did JNA

12 service, and perhaps give us an outline of that? Why don't we -- leading

13 up to 1995, if you could.

14 A. I did my military service in 1971 to 1972 in the school for

15 officers in reserve in Zadar, and I have the status of an officer in

16 reserve. From 1992 until the end of 1996, I was mobilised and I was in

17 the regional headquarters in the battalion, in the brigade command, and

18 that is where my activities in the military ended.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you. Tell us about your position in 1995.

20 A. I was assistant chief of staff for personnel affairs and

21 mobilisation.

22 Q. And that's in the command of the Zvornik Brigade?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And who was your immediate supervisor or superior, excuse me, in

25 that position?

Page 10494

1 A. My immediate superior was the Chief of Staff, Mr. Obrenovic.

2 Q. And can you tell us what your duties and responsibilities were in

3 that job at that time?

4 A. The activities of the personnel service that I headed were as

5 follows: Replenishment of units with manpower, materiel; then all other

6 activities related to cooperation with the Defence ministry department

7 which was responsible for replenishment of unit materiel; keeping of

8 records for all military conscripts, officers and non-commissioned

9 officers and privates; also activities in relation to dealing with all

10 personnel issues of members of the unit; keeping all possible records in

11 the unit for the missing, the wounded, the killed; also participation in

12 the work of various-level medical commissions, monitoring the state of

13 health of the wounded who were undergoing treatment; issuance of various

14 certificates about wounds suffered or deaths and other certificates on the

15 participation of soldiers in the units. Those would briefly be the

16 activities that the personnel service engaged in.

17 Q. And what rank did you hold in July 1995?

18 A. In July 1995, I had the rank of major.

19 Q. And what rank did you hold in '92, when you were first mobilised?

20 A. I was captain first class.

21 Q. And so who promoted you?

22 A. The Defence ministry or the main staff. I can't remember exactly

23 what the order said.

24 Q. And your commander at the time was Vinko Pandurevic, of your

25 promotion?

Page 10495

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many people, if any, did you supervise in your job in 1995?

3 A. There was only another officer working with me in the office.

4 Q. And what was his name?

5 A. Andjelko Ivanovic. Unfortunately, he is deceased.

6 Q. I want to take you to the 13th of July, 1995, something I know

7 you've talked to the ICTY about. Can you tell us, sometime during that

8 day did you get a certain assignment, something that was a bit out of the

9 ordinary?

10 A. On the 13th of July, in the evening, about 2200 or 2300 hours, I

11 was already resting by then, I was tasked to go to the forward command

12 post in Kitovnice to replace Lieutenant Nikolic.

13 Q. And where were you when you first heard about your replacement for

14 Lieutenant Nikolic?

15 A. I was in the brigade headquarters, and as it was the evening, I

16 was resting.

17 Q. And how, in particular, as you recall, did you find out about this

18 job?

19 A. I can't say with certainty, but I think it was the courier, the

20 messenger, who came and conveyed the message to me. I got ready, and with

21 a vehicle and a driver, I went up there.

22 Q. Do you recall the name of the driver that took you?

23 A. No, I can't remember. One of the drivers on duty, but I really

24 can't remember his name.

25 Q. So was this a regularly-scheduled position for you or was there

Page 10496

1 something unusual about this date and time?

2 A. I was to be on duty on the 14th in the morning, starting with

3 7.00 a.m. We were usually on duty for 24 hours, but on the 13th, this was

4 an extraordinary shift duty, and I took over duty up there.

5 Q. You said it was duty at the forward command post, and you've told

6 us where that is. Can you describe a little bit what the duties and

7 responsibilities of the duty officer at the forward command post are?

8 A. If I can recall correctly, it is to monitor the situation along

9 the defence line, to observe, and if it is possible, to carry out

10 observation depending on the light, whether it's daytime or night-time,

11 contacts with units and, in other words, monitors the overall situation

12 along the separation line. That is the basic duty of an officer at the

13 forward command post.

14 Q. What sorts of people were assigned to that post? Could it have

15 been anybody in the brigade?

16 A. No, only officers, commanding officers in the brigade, according

17 to an established schedule for a certain period. Now, whether those

18 schedules were fortnightly or monthly, I can't recall, but they were

19 commanding officers from the brigade headquarters.

20 Q. Do you know why it was limited to officers?

21 A. I don't know. I can't remember anything in particular to give you

22 as an answer.

23 Q. Was it an important job?

24 A. Yes, one of the more important activities of the brigade command.

25 Q. How far away from the IKM were the enemy forces?

Page 10497

1 A. From the IKM and their observation post, it may be 1.000 or 1.500

2 metres. That would be the closest line. To the right and left, the

3 distance is normally greater, but it is very close so that one can monitor

4 the situation. At least the area that one can observe visually, whereas

5 everything else is monitored through the communication means.

6 Q. Okay. Let me take you back to that evening when you were driving

7 to the forward command post. Can you just roughly describe what route you

8 took?

9 A. The customary route, Karakaj-Jardan-Kitovnice.

10 Q. And when you got to the forward command post, what did you find?

11 A. As far as I can recollect, a soldier was there working with the

12 communications and a soldier -- another soldier who was the messenger.

13 Q. Do you remember their names?

14 A. I cannot remember the names of either one of them because this

15 was, after all, a long time ago and I don't have those names.

16 Q. Was the man you were to replace there Drago Nikolic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did you speak to him?

19 A. I didn't speak to Drago.

20 Q. Did you see him?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How do you know he was there?

23 A. On the basis of the schedule that was in the unit, and I was told

24 to go and replace him. His name was given to me.

25 Q. Okay. But this is -- can you describe the forward command post,

Page 10498

1 the kind of building it is, the size of the facility itself?

2 A. The forward command post was a small building, a holiday home of

3 prefabricated type, with two premises, as far as I can recollect. It was

4 in the area of Kitovnice, and the observation post was some 500 or more

5 metres away, closer to the separation line, and this was also part of the

6 forward command post.

7 Q. So are you -- now, when I ask you if Drago Nikolic was there at

8 the time, do you remember what you told us in your interview about that?

9 A. No. I didn't find him then, nor did I talk to him.

10 Q. Okay. There may have been some confusion, I'm not sure, but

11 earlier when I asked you if he was there, I thought you said he was. So

12 just to try to clarify it, when you got to the forward command post that

13 night, do you -- was Drago Nikolic there?

14 A. When I got there, he wasn't there. Before that, I assume he was,

15 but I didn't find him there.

16 Q. Okay. Now, when you replace someone in a situation like this,

17 should they be there before the person arrives to replace them?

18 A. He should be there, according to the rules. Now, why we didn't

19 meet there, I really don't know.

20 Q. Did you ask or did anybody tell you where he went, what happened

21 to him?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How long did you have duty there up at the forward command post?

24 From that night, that is.

25 A. Until the 15th, in the morning, at 7.00 a.m., when the next

Page 10499

1 officer came to replace me according to schedule and to take over those

2 duties.

3 Q. Do you remember who replaced you on the 15th?

4 A. As there was nothing in the notebook, I don't know whether it's

5 the right thing to say, but I think it was Major Ljubo Bojanovic.

6 Q. You may remember me telling you you're not supposed to speculate,

7 but if you believe something, you can say if you think it's true. Do you

8 think you're speculating or do you think it's something you have some

9 confidence in?

10 A. I believe it was him because on that day he wrote certain

11 documents at that place, and I gave this matter some thought and came to

12 the conclusion that he was the person.

13 Q. Okay. Well, we'll get to a document or two on that subject.

14 Is Mr. Bojanovic still alive today?

15 A. Unfortunately, not. He died a month or so ago.

16 Q. Now, if I could, I want to show you what you have seen before.

17 It's a copy of the IKM logbook, 65 ter 347.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could get the English and the B/C/S up

19 there, if possible. And the B/C/S, the part I'm looking for is on page 8,

20 and in the English it's on page 6.

21 Q. And that sometimes takes a while, but is this something that was

22 shown to you by an investigator some time ago, and then most recently in

23 my office a day or two ago?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. And take a look at the screen in front of you. Were

Page 10500

1 you able to see the original in my office?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you've had a little time to look at it and concentrate for a

4 while, I take it.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So tell us what this is, as you look on this picture and see this

7 handwriting and this date, 13/7/95. Is that -- are those entries of the

8 logbook?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the logbook, what it is, what

11 it was designed to do?

12 A. The purpose of this diary, of this logbook, was to record -- to

13 enter all activities reported or notified by the duty officer at the

14 forward command post, the situation at the separation line and other

15 indicators of the situation on the ground. That's the main thing that

16 should be entered and that is recorded in this document.

17 Q. Okay. Do you recognise the handwriting for this -- this 13 July

18 entry?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. All right. And whose handwriting is that?

21 A. Mine.

22 Q. And did you sign it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that your --

25 A. Although you can't see the signature there, not yet, but, yes, I

Page 10501

1 did sign it.

2 Q. Okay.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Then can we bring it up a little bit so we can

4 find the area that ... Okay. I don't need the top -- those top

5 paragraphs, just the "13 July," please. And I just noted in the English

6 translation it says "Major Talic." That's an error, I take it.

7 Q. You didn't put your name as Talic? Is that an error, "Talic," or

8 can you explain that?

9 A. It's an error. Instead of "T," a "G." But in fact -- in fact,

10 you know about this man who was -- used to be here, had -- his last name

11 was almost the same as mine. He came here alive and left this place dead.

12 My name is Galic.

13 Q. Right, okay. And do you know when you made that 13 July entry in

14 the logbook?

15 A. It was entered during the day.

16 Q. Do you know which day, I mean, if you got there in the evening?

17 A. At 2300 hours. That's the upper entry. And on this 14th of July,

18 the entry refers to that day.

19 Q. Okay. The part that I'm asking about, and I'm sorry, I'll be more

20 clear, is where you say, and I'll read it:

21 "I took over duty, unscheduled, from Lieutenant Drago Nikolic at

22 2300 hours."

23 Do you know when you wrote that entry?

24 A. I suppose, in fact I think, that this was written when I came up

25 there or, rather, no, in the morning, it was in the morning, because the

Page 10502

1 following entry is about how the night had passed. And then I wrote on

2 the 14th, in the morning, based on all the information incoming to the

3 forward command post during the night.

4 Q. All right, thank you. When you got there and didn't find

5 Drago Nikolic, did you contact him or attempt to contact him in any way to

6 find out what happened to him or get an update on what had happened while

7 he was there?

8 A. No, I did not try to contact him.

9 Q. We see the last entry, I believe it's -- can we bring the English

10 down a little bit so I can see perhaps the date? The other way. All

11 right. We see the last entry in the book at 1820 hours, so we have

12 between 1820 hours and 2300 hours on the front line. A lot can happen in

13 that amount of time. Did you get any information of what, if anything,

14 had been going on?

15 A. No. All that happened, to my knowledge, firsthand knowledge, and

16 all the things that were reported to me, is reflected in this report.

17 Q. Okay. Let me take you to that other document I think you may have

18 made a reference to, and that's 65 ter 347. It's a -- I'm sorry, 65 ter

19 329. And I think I'll give you the original again so you can look at it

20 as well. And we'll get that up on the -- if we could get the English up

21 as well, if we could. This is a 15 July report, and I notice you've got a

22 chance to look at -- do you recognise that, that document you've got in

23 your hands?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. And can you tell us what it is?

Page 10503

1 A. This is an interim combat report sent on the 15th of July, 1995,

2 to the command of the Drina Corps.

3 Q. From whom?

4 A. This document was sent by the then-commander, Lieutenant-Colonel

5 Vinko Pandurevic.

6 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we catch the signature on the Cyrillic,

9 please? It's down at the bottom, I believe. Oh, it's on the next page;

10 actually on the back of the original.

11 Q. Now, have you seen Vinko Pandurevic's signature quite a bit?

12 A. Very often and many times, in view of the fact that he signed most

13 documents, especially when his deputy was absent, so I am familiar with

14 his signature.

15 Q. So is this his regular signature?

16 A. Not regular. Sometimes he used the abbreviated version of his

17 signature, such as this time.

18 Q. So as you look at that original squiggle, you recognise that as

19 his abbreviated signature?

20 A. I think that's the short version of Pandurevic's signature.

21 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting in this document?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And whose handwriting do you recognise?

24 A. This report was written by Major Ljubo Bojanovic. That's his

25 handwriting.

Page 10504

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I don't have any further questions.

2 Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

4 Now, I have on my list the Defence teams of Gvero, General Gvero,

5 and Borovcanin, who do not wish to, at least for the time being,

6 cross-examine the witness, and then I have a reduced estimate by the

7 Pandurevic Defence team of about an hour and a half. I still have two

8 hours, 30 minutes asked by the Nikolic team.

9 MR. BOURGON: That's the case, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And then roughly an hour to be divided between the

11 Beara, Popovic and Miletic teams.

12 So may I suggest either the Defence for Mr. Nikolic or the Defence

13 for Mr. Pandurevic to go first, if there is nothing against --

14 MR. BOURGON: I'm perfectly willing to go first, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

16 MR. BOURGON: Because we have a break, maybe we take a break now

17 and then we continue on and stop?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We should have a break in about 4 minutes time, we

19 might as well have it now. Twenty-five minutes.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

23 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Galic.

Page 10505

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. I'd like to begin simply by confirming with you that on the 21st

3 of September, 2001, you met with investigators from the Prosecution and

4 that you had an interview which was taped; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I would also like to confirm with you that on the 27th of

7 June, 2002, you had a further investigation -- sorry, a further interview

8 that was also recorded. Do you recall that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you recall that for both interviews, you spoke with the

11 same investigator, and his name was Dean Manning; is this something you

12 recall?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. I have quite a bit of questions for you this afternoon, and I will

15 try to move along as swiftly as I can. And I will be, of course, using

16 both of these interviews as a guide to move along. First, I'd like to

17 confirm that what you mentioned to my colleague from the Prosecution, that

18 you were a reserve officer. That was your status in 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that you were demobilised, that means that you were no longer

21 in the service, as of April of 1996?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then you were called back for service or -- as a matter of

24 fact, you weren't called back, but you joined the service again in 1998?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10506

1 Q. So on that second occasion, you were not mobilised or drafted, you

2 were basically given an opportunity to join back as a professional

3 officer; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's when I was admitted into professional military

5 service.

6 Q. And I take it, Mr. Galic, that you were quite happy to get back in

7 the service in 1998.

8 A. Because I was unable to find a different line of work, yes.

9 Q. And would I be right, Mr. Galic, in saying that the commander of

10 the brigade at that time, Dragan Obrenovic, was instrumental in allowing

11 you to join back the service in 1998?

12 A. This issue is not very clear to me because it's not about

13 Dragan Obrenovic, it's the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska that

14 took me in. He happened to be the commander at the time, but even if it

15 had been someone else, I would have started working again.

16 Q. Maybe I will make my question more precise. Did he assist you in

17 any way in making it possible for you to join back the service?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Looking at your description of duties, which you discussed both

20 with my colleague earlier today as well as in your first interview, you

21 mentioned that you had certain responsibilities, one of which was the

22 replenishment of unit for both personnel and materiel; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And that if there was someone in Zvornik Brigade in 1995 who had a

25 link with the Ministry of Defence, that was yourself?

Page 10507

1 A. For the Zvornik Brigade, yes, it was me.

2 Q. And your task, as responsible for replenishment during wartime,

3 was a very important duty, was it not?

4 A. It was a very important duty, but you have to understand that for

5 the whole duration of the war I did not perform that job that you're

6 talking about now. I did it for a short while.

7 Q. Now, if there was a need to replenish the brigade or if there was

8 some kind of mobilisation in the area of Zvornik, this is something you

9 would be responsible for, along with the Ministry of Defence; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Those who are mobilised needed for the Zvornik Brigade with the

12 necessary permissions were my responsibility.

13 Q. Now, we spoke with some people who -- whom you might know, and I'd

14 like to basically get your views on a couple of issues which we have

15 gathered during the Defence investigation. And in this respect, I would

16 like to begin by asking you whether you know someone called

17 Branko Avramovic?

18 A. Yes, I know the man.

19 Q. And can you tell me what Branko Avramovic was doing in July of

20 1995?

21 A. He was clerk for general affairs in the 3rd Infantry Battalion.

22 Q. What I would like to ask of you is based on some information that

23 I've gathered from Mr. Avramovic concerning the procedures of recruitment;

24 that the role of the personnel officer was to be present whenever there

25 was recruitment or new people coming in to the unit; is that correct?

Page 10508

1 A. No.

2 Q. Well, then, can you explain?

3 A. In matters of recruitment, a commission was established for

4 recruitment, and that job involved the assessment of the health of the

5 recruit, his general condition, and there was one NCO on behalf of the

6 Zvornik Brigade who was part of that commission. But in 1994, 1995 and

7 1996, I don't remember the earlier years, that's the way it was. The

8 Ministry of Defence was in charge of recruitment. What the brigade did in

9 that period, its part of the job was to submit certain requests to the

10 ministry, specifying the military specialisations that the unit requires

11 so that young men would be recruited to the appropriate branches of

12 service and later integrated into the army.

13 Q. Now, what I would like to establish with you, Mr. Galic, is that

14 if there was mobilisation, would I be right in saying that the personnel

15 officer from the brigade command, along with the chief of personnel and a

16 clerk from the Ministry of Defence, would be the ones to receive the

17 recruits? Is that a fair statement?

18 A. No. Recruits were received and sent for military service by the

19 Ministry of Defence, and the brigade did not have any jurisdiction or

20 responsibilities in the matter, neither the brigade nor its command,

21 except in cases when the brigade would be required to provide an assembly

22 point where the recruits would gather and from where they would be

23 transported to recruitment centres.

24 Q. And, Mr. Galic, on 14th and 15th of July, 1995, was the Zvornik

25 Brigade not tasked to provide a gathering area for a mobilisation?

Page 10509

1 A. I'm not sure, because on the 14th I was absent, and in fact some

2 recruits were sent to the army on that day, on the 14th.

3 Q. There's another individual I'd like you to -- to ask you about to

4 see if you know the person, and that person is -- sorry, I'm just looking

5 for it here -- whether you know of Konstantin Kljajic?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Can you tell us what Konstantin Kljajic was doing in July of 1995?

8 A. For a while, he was at the command of the brigade before returning

9 to the Ministry of Defence. I don't know exactly in which one of these

10 two places he was at the time. I can't give you a precise answer to this

11 question.

12 Q. Now, would I be right in saying that Konstantin Kljajic was at

13 that time, in July of 1995, that he was actually a clerk in the personnel

14 services of Zvornik Brigade?

15 A. No, he was not. He was not an officer in the personnel service of

16 the Zvornik Brigade.

17 Q. Maybe there was a mistake in the translation. I didn't

18 say "officer," I mentioned "clerk" in the personnel services of the

19 Zvornik Brigade.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, we did have a conversation with this person. Now, you say

22 something different from what he told us, because he told us he was a

23 clerk in Zvornik Brigade personnel services, but he also told us that you

24 were in charge of all personnel activity relating to the mobilisation of

25 soldiers and the admittance of recruits, as well as assignment. Would

Page 10510

1 that be a fair statement?

2 A. You are not right on that. In July 1995, in the section for

3 personnel affairs, there was me and Andjelko Ivanovic. Bato, or rather

4 Konstantin Kljajic, was a commanding officer who was with that section for

5 a while before being sent to the staff office, but I don't remember the

6 exact date of his transfer. I don't remember precisely and I cannot give

7 you a precise answer to this question.

8 Now, for the other part, that we admitted recruits and conscripts,

9 and after serving their military service, these men would return and then

10 they would be assigned to units.

11 Q. Now, my question was not exactly that, but I will make it more

12 precise. On both the 15th -- the 14th and the 15th of July, 1995, I

13 suggest to you that as the person responsible for personnel, you had to be

14 present to receive and assign new recruits, and that was strictly your

15 obligation; is that correct?

16 A. As far as responsibility, that could also have been done by the

17 clerk for personnel, Andjelko Ivanovic or anyone else who was put in

18 charge of that. It doesn't mean necessarily that only I was responsible

19 for that. Andjelko Ivanovic or any other person authorised to perform

20 that job could have done it and done it well.

21 Q. And, Mr. Galic, you know who Stevan Ivanovic is; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And are you aware that he issued an order for mobilisation for

24 July of 1995?

25 A. No.

Page 10511

1 MR. BOURGON: If we can have on e-court, please, document number

2 3D119. And we have it both in English and in B/C/S. And if I can have

3 both side by side, please.

4 Q. I'd like you, Mr. Galic, to look at this document here and to read

5 this, which is in your language. Now, there is of course a difference

6 between the document in your language and the document which is in

7 English, and I draw the attention of everyone in the courtroom to

8 paragraph 3, which is circled, where in your language, Mr. Galic, it says

9 that you are the point of contact, where it says: "Any unclear issues

10 regarding mobilisation should be addressed to the Zvornik Brigade

11 command," your name is there in your -- in the version in your language,

12 but your name does not appear in the translation.

13 Were you aware of this document, Mr. Galic?

14 A. This is a document I was not aware of, because it is addressed to

15 the department of the Defence Ministry in Zvornik by the secretary of the

16 Secretariat for National Defence. So there was no indication that this

17 document should be addressed to the command of the Zvornik Brigade or the

18 department for personnel. We can see here that it is to the Defence

19 Ministry section of Zvornik, and then you will also see from the heading,

20 if it could be scrolled down, please, you see here it says, "Republika

21 Srpska, Ministry of Defence, Zvornik Department," which is superior to the

22 Defence Ministry. So it is passed on from one to the other, and no

23 mention is made here of the Zvornik Brigade command.

24 Q. My question to you, Mr. Galic, is simply: I draw your attention

25 to the paragraph which is right below where it says: "Ministry of

Page 10512

1 Defence, Zvornik Department," and it says that this is based on a request

2 which was made by Drina Corps command, but that's not what -- that's not

3 my issue. The issue is: Are you telling this Court that you were not

4 made aware that on 15 July there was supposed to be a mobilisation ordered

5 by Mr. Ivanovic, the secretary?

6 A. I was aware of the mobilisation, the mobilisation of personnel who

7 were part of the battalion, and on the 15th of July, as indicated in the

8 order, it was mobilised. But I understood you to say that this was

9 addressed to the brigade command, which it wasn't. It was addressed to

10 the Defence Ministry that carried out these activities on the basis of

11 orders from the Ministry or, rather, the Secretariat on the basis of the

12 request of the Drina Corps commander of such-and-such a number. We

13 received those people, and there's no question about that.

14 Q. And my next question, Mr. Galic, is: Are you aware -- or I simply

15 suggest to you that knowing that there was mobilisation on that day, this

16 must have been a major activity for you and your department some days

17 before that.

18 A. I don't know what mobilisation before this. This is customary --

19 a customary activity of personnel who had been mobilised on several

20 occasions, and this is carried out, and when the need for such a unit

21 ceases, it is disbanded, but it is always ready, it is always available to

22 be called up if necessary. The personnel in the unit from the work units

23 who were working in companies, manufacturing, in various organisations

24 that were still operating during the war, those were the people who were

25 being called up. We called it the "R" battalion, the reserve battalion,

Page 10513

1 and this order relates to them.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Galic, do you know how many people were mobilised on the

3 15th of July, 1995?

4 A. I can't remember the exact number, but this unit -- it's hard for

5 me to engage in guesswork. I don't know the exact number.

6 Q. I'd like to call up on the e-court document number 3D125, please.

7 It's a document that is only available in the language of the witness, but

8 it is a list of names and I think it should not cause too many problems.

9 Mr. Galic, can you look at this document, and I will let you look

10 at the first page, and then we can move straight to the last page. And

11 will you agree with me, on the basis of this document, that 254 persons

12 were mobilised on the 15th of July, 1995?

13 A. This is a list, and it confirms what I just said, that these were

14 people from work organisations. This was the number that was called up.

15 Whether they all responded or not, this is something I cannot recall and

16 can't tell you. This is a list of the members of that unit that was on

17 work duty.

18 Q. Now, if someone from Zvornik Brigade had any responsibility with

19 these people to welcome them and then to send them away, that would be

20 you; correct?

21 A. No. They are received by their commander, the commander of the

22 unit. He's the person who does that. I am just the technical person who,

23 with the help of the command that is being formed, is there to receive all

24 those people and to register all data and inform the ministry who

25 responded to the call-up, who did not, and all the other activities

Page 10514

1 envisaged by law.

2 Q. And on 14 and 15 of July, 1995, this Zvornik Brigade provided a

3 gathering area for all these people?

4 A. They gathered in the barracks. That was per -- that had its

5 permanent security. It was never without security.

6 Q. And were you there? Did you meet these people?

7 A. I was present. On the 15th, in the morning, I came from the

8 forward command post. I went into the field for a while and came back.

9 But I must draw attention to the fact that it is not my duty to receive

10 each and every person, welcome him and assign him. It is the command who

11 does all that. It is the command that informs the personnel department

12 about the number of arrivals, and then this is monitored. Upon the

13 completion of mobilisation, a list of those who failed to respond is

14 provided to the Ministry of Defence to check out why they didn't respond

15 and whether there is any grounds to institute proceedings because of their

16 failure to respond to the call-up.

17 Q. And, Mr. Galic, do you recall meeting these people on the 15th

18 because I've just shown you a document or is that something that is live

19 in your memory?

20 A. Well, I -- I do remember that people were gathering and leaving,

21 but I really can't tell you much about the details that you're asking me

22 to comment on.

23 Q. Before I move on to my next topic, I would just like to come back

24 quickly to your -- when you joined back the service in 1998. At what age

25 did you join the service, and were you not past the normal age to join

Page 10515

1 back?

2 A. I was born in 1951, and I rejoined the service in 1998, so that

3 was my age. And I was admitted into the service probably -- or certainly

4 in accordance with all the regulations in force at the time, on the basis

5 of which the ministry did admit people to professional military service of

6 all categories.

7 Q. And just my last question to close this topic: Did you not tell

8 someone that Major Obrenovic, who was the commander at that time, did

9 intercede in your favour because there was a problem with your age?

10 A. No, I never said that. That is not true. And it is not typical

11 of me or Mr. Obrenovic. If I was beyond the age, I would have

12 said, "Thank you," and gone to look for another honourable job, rather

13 than doing this. Therefore, that is not true.

14 Q. I move on, Mr. Galic, to your interview with the investigator from

15 the Prosecution. And would I be right in saying that when you met in

16 2001, you did mention that you had no involvement whatsoever in military

17 action in July of 1995; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you also explained to the investigator how is it that as the

20 person responsible for personnel, you were immediately subordinated to the

21 chief of staff? Do you recall that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you recall that you were shown an organisational chart by

24 the investigator when you met him on that day?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10516

1 MR. BOURGON: If we can call up on e-court 3D120, please.

2 Q. While -- before we get this new exhibit on the -- or document on

3 e-court, I'd ask you, Mr. Galic: You recognise the difference between

4 someone who is an assistant commander within a unit for one of the

5 departments and someone who, like you, is reporting directly to the Chief

6 of staff; there is a difference, isn't it?

7 A. There is a difference. Could you please make it clearer, and

8 could your questions be a little shorter, if possible?

9 Q. I will endeavour to make them shorter. What's the difference

10 between an assistant commander and someone who reports directly to the

11 chief of staff?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. There's a lot of people that report to

13 the chief of staff. If you could make that more specific, I think you'll

14 get a better answer.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it would be fairer on the witness, too,

16 Mr. Bourgon.

17 MR. BOURGON: My pleasure to please my colleagues from the

18 Prosecution.

19 Q. How many assistant commanders were there in Zvornik Brigade in

20 1995?

21 A. Let us count them together.

22 Q. You've got the document in front of you. It shouldn't be too

23 difficult.

24 A. Assistant commander for morale, religious and legal affairs,

25 assistant commander for logistics.

Page 10517

1 Q. Anybody else?

2 A. I can't see anyone else from this chart.

3 Q. Assistant commander for security, maybe?

4 A. It says, "chief of security."

5 Q. So the chief of security does not have the position of an

6 assistant commander; is that what you're saying today?

7 A. If I say that he is not, then according to this structure he

8 should have a higher degree of responsibility and a higher position than

9 any other assistant commander.

10 Q. And what is the difference between someone like you, responsible

11 for personnel, and someone who is either in the morale, in the logistics,

12 or security departments or branches? What's the difference?

13 A. I cannot answer that question. Neither was I assistant commander

14 for morale, nor chief of security, nor assistant commander for logistics,

15 so these are duties I cannot discuss. The only thing I can talk about is

16 the assistant chief of staff for personnel, and I spent a certain amount

17 of time during those -- doing those duties, so I can't make a distinction

18 between what you are asking and the services I conducted. Every service

19 has its weight, has its level of responsibility. What that is, I am not

20 qualified or authorised to qualify the duties of the commander and the

21 assistant commanders.

22 Q. Let me try and help you out, Mr. Galic. You, as chief of

23 personnel, would report directly to Mr. Obrenovic, the chief of staff,

24 whereas an assistant commander for morale, logistics or security would

25 report directly to the commander. Does that ring any bell to you?

Page 10518

1 A. First of all, let me correct you. I wasn't the chief for

2 personnel, but assistant chief of staff for personnel, so that is an

3 important difference. I wasn't chief, but assistant. Now, the

4 difference -- you see, I engaged in the activities I have described. The

5 assistant commander for morale, for religious and legal affairs, as the

6 title indicates, has responsibility for morale, for religious affairs and

7 for legal affairs. Those are the three activities that that man united in

8 his activities, as opposed to me, who had no involvement there. I did

9 what I was told to do.

10 Q. We'll leave it at that, but my next question is: When you were

11 shown this organisational chart by the investigator, it was empty, was it

12 not? There was no markings at all on it?

13 A. No, you're not right. It was drawn out, but without the names,

14 and I was asked if I -- as far as I can remember, to put down the names

15 that I could remember and certain parts of units if certain units were

16 left out. That was asked of me, and to the best of my recollection that

17 is what I did at the time.

18 Q. And all these names that we find on this organisational chart were

19 put there by yourself out of memory; is that correct?

20 A. Out of memory, I put down the names. I couldn't recollect the

21 others.

22 Q. And if we -- do you recall that you engaged into a discussion with

23 the investigator, trying to explain to him what was the reserve battalion,

24 because you noticed that there was something wrong there with the reserve

25 battalion, who in your view is not part of the unit; is that correct?

Page 10519

1 A. This was a unit that was occasionally called up; it is not part of

2 the establishment. It was called up according to the procedure that I

3 have described.

4 Q. Now, you're not talking about those people who were mobilised when

5 you talk about the reserve unit or the reserve battalion; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Can you clarify? Are you saying that those people who were

8 mobilised on the 15th and 14th of July, according to this document, that

9 they are the members of the reserve battalion of the Zvornik Brigade? Is

10 that what you're saying?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Okay. We'll move on to another topic. As the personnel officer

13 or the assistant chief of staff for personnel, you did not have any

14 contact with the commander, Vinko Pandurevic; is that correct?

15 A. In what period of time?

16 Q. I'm referring, Mr. Galic, to July of 1995, specifically.

17 A. On certain days, I did have contact, and on others, I didn't.

18 Q. And in accomplishing your duties as the assistant chief of staff

19 for personnel, who did you deal with most often, Obrenovic or the

20 commander, Pandurevic?

21 A. I'm the direct inferior to Mr. Obrenovic, and according to the

22 military hierarchy I'm also accountable to the commander of the brigade.

23 But my immediate superior is the chief of staff.

24 Q. I'd like to move on to the period again in July of 1995, where you

25 mentioned during your interview that from the 4th or the 5th of July until

Page 10520

1 the 15th, that the commander, Pandurevic, was not there, and it was

2 Major Obrenovic who was standing in for him; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you also mentioned during that first interview that your first

5 contact with the commander, Pandurevic, was on the 17th or the 18th of

6 July, and that was because you did not leave your office at all during

7 that period. Did you say that to the investigator?

8 A. I said that in that period, that was the 17th or the 18th.

9 Q. Let me call up the version of your interview just so that we can

10 maybe help you out here, and I would like to have on e-court 3D115, which

11 is the first interview with the investigator from the Prosecution. And I

12 would like to go straight to page 9 in English and in B/C/S page 13.

13 Now, I will read -- try to move ahead. I will read what you said

14 on that occasion, and I quote from lines 7 to 12:

15 "When he came back, you think, on the 15th, did you see him come

16 back?

17 "No.

18 "How do you know he came back on that day?

19 "I assume that because the unit that went with him also returned

20 that day.

21 "When was the first time that you spoke with Pandurevic or had

22 dealings with him after he has returned?

23 "I'm not so sure, but I think it was already after the 17th or the

24 18th, because they were in the field, and I did not leave the office at

25 all during that period. I was not in contact with --"

Page 10521

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bourgon, could you check whether we have it in

2 front of us?

3 MR. BOURGON: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Judge. I will look. I

4 thought we had the right one. What I'm looking for was 3D115. I don't

5 think this is the one that is displayed now on the screen.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It definitely isn't.

7 JUDGE KWON: I think it's coming.

8 MR. BOURGON: I was looking for page -- in English, I was looking

9 for page 9, and the number of the -- the tape interview is 69666. If we

10 can go back a bit. I had page 9 also written on that document, but page

11 69666, four pages before that. And if I can have the equivalent in the

12 language of the witness, please. No, there is a problem, Mr. President,

13 because this is a mixed version with both English and -- this is a mixed

14 version. This is not 3D115, unless --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Now we have another page. Yes, I think we have it

16 now. We have it now.

17 MR. BOURGON: On the English channel is the good one?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We have it on the -- yes, we have it on the

19 English channel as well here: "When was the first time you spoke with

20 Pandurevic and had dealings with him after?" "I'm not sure, but I

21 think --"

22 MR. BOURGON: Lines 10 to 12 is what I was referring the witness

23 to.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, one moment, Mr. Bourgon.

25 Go ahead. Go ahead. Everything seems to be okay, Mr. Bourgon.

Page 10522

1 You may proceed, unless you have a problem --

2 MR. BOURGON: The document on the screen, on the e-court, is not

3 the right document, so maybe there is something with the loading or --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Which document, in the original language or --

5 MR. BOURGON: I would like both the original language and the

6 English, if I could, for 3D115.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We have it for English, for sure.

8 MR. BOURGON: Okay, so we have the -- I think maybe the wrong

9 document was included in -- the scanned version is the mixed version with

10 all languages. But on the left side --

11 Q. So, Mr. Galic, I will simply read that quote again, and you can

12 confirm that that was your answer.

13 "When was the first time that you spoke with Pandurevic or had

14 dealings with him after he has returned?

15 "I'm not so sure, but I think it was already after the 17th or the

16 18th, because they were in the field, and I did not leave the office at

17 all during that period, so I was not in contact with Pandurevic."

18 Do you recognise these words in this interview?

19 A. It's an interview in which I said I remembered it was around those

20 dates. I didn't claim precisely that it was one way or another. I named

21 the dates that I could remember, without having at my disposal any

22 documents that would remind me of any details or that would give a precise

23 indication of time and date when I met with the commander at the barracks.

24 Q. Let's move on to -- unfortunately, it would be -- I'll try to get

25 the right side with the same page number.

Page 10523

1 MR. BOURGON: If we can try and find one sentence that is the

2 same, then we can move along. Can we move along the right side, the mixed

3 version, can we move to other pages and we'll try to get the two matched

4 together? Okay, next one. I think we're coming there. Next one. Next

5 one. A technical problem that I'm not ... Well, we're going to have to

6 move with the left one, and if you can try and scroll down on the right,

7 because this is not the right -- and move with the next page, because I

8 don't know what -- how to make the pages match. That's not the version I

9 have in my documents.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. A practical suggestion by Madam Registrar, if

11 you have a B/C/S hard copy version, we can put it on the ELMO and that

12 would speed up matters.

13 MR. BOURGON: Just one moment, Mr. President. We do have -- we do

14 have just a B/C/S version which I can show to my colleague and give to the

15 witness, from page 1 to page 49, and there are no markings on it. And if

16 we can move on the ELMO to page 12 of that document.

17 Q. Mr. Galic, I'll ask you to look beside -- to look on the -- to

18 look on the screen before you, and if we go on the ELMO you will see in

19 your language page 12, and I draw your attention to the line which begins

20 with: "I'm not so sure, but I think it was already after the 17th or the

21 18th." If we can scroll down, move up -- yes.

22 Okay. Now, what I would like to do for my next question is a

23 little -- again if you move down a bit, always on the same page, you will

24 find that at that point in time when you spoke with the investigator, you

25 said: "After the 15th, when his unit returned to the brigade

Page 10524

1 headquarters, he went back to the field." Do you recall that

2 Mr. Pandurevic went back to the field after coming back on the 15th?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when you mentioned the investigator, he asked you where the

5 commander was gone after the 15th, and your answer was:

6 "He was in the field in the area of Baljkovica and Kitovnice."

7 "What was he doing?"

8 And your answer was: "He was in command of the units, because at

9 that time the forces from Srebrenica were passing down the road on their

10 way to Tuzla, and that was the reason for him being there commanding his

11 units."

12 Do you see that in your language, that this was your answer to the

13 investigator, Mr. Galic? Page 13. Up a bit. Yes.

14 A. I told him what I knew. I was not in contact with the commander,

15 and to the best of my knowledge he had returned and then went to that

16 area. Whether I was precise or accurate in naming what he was doing, but

17 what I thought he was doing was to complete activities concerning the

18 securing of that part of the area up there.

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bourgon, just to let you know that what we have

20 in our e-court is of 81 pages, but what is on the ELMO is of 49 pages.

21 That's the problem. That may be the cause of the problem.

22 MR. BOURGON: But I have the pages from English to the pages that

23 he has, so this paragraph here that is on top is the right answer that I'm

24 quoting to.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, yes.

Page 10525

1 MR. BOURGON: And I refer to page 9 in English, and he has page 13

2 in B/C/S.

3 JUDGE KWON: But the problem is that document is different from

4 the document on the e-court.

5 MR. BOURGON: I will refer him to the right pages, Your Honour,

6 the right pages in the document that he has.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Galic, my questions here are not to say whether you -- I

8 just want to confirm at this stage that this was your answer to the

9 investigator in 2001, that at that time you knew what Commander Pandurevic

10 was doing in the field after the 15th. And you've just confirmed that.

11 We'll move on to the next point, and that was that a question was

12 put to you by the investigator -- you want to say something? Go ahead.

13 A. I was about to say that to the best of my knowledge, that's what

14 he was doing there in the field. I cannot add anything, I'm not going to

15 make anything up.

16 Q. That's exactly my point, Mr. Galic. I don't want you to add

17 anything. I just want you to confirm that these were your answers, unless

18 you're saying today that your answers were incorrect.

19 Now, if we move to page 10 in English, which corresponds to page

20 14 in B/C/S, a question was put to you:

21 "Did you ever perform the duty of duty officer, operational duty

22 officer?"

23 And your response was at the time: "I was on duty, I was on duty

24 service, but at that time, no, mostly on those duties were the other

25 commanding officers at different kind of duties, but I also performed that

Page 10526

1 duty sometimes."

2 Page 13 of B/C/S.

3 A. Look, something is -- please. The question you are asking and the

4 thing that I have before me are opposite. What I have in front of me

5 is: "Did you perform the duties of operations duty officer in July 1995?"

6 That's what I see on the paper in front of me. And you are saying

7 something else.

8 Q. And the question right above that is: "Did you ever perform the

9 duty of duty officer, operational duty officer," on page 13 of the B/C/S.

10 Now, the best way, Mr. Galic, is we'll take the English on the ELMO -- on

11 the e-court before us and you can take the paper in your hands and look at

12 those pages in your hand. This will make it easier for you. Look at page

13 13 and tell me if you see the question: "Did you ever perform the duty of

14 the duty officer, operational duty officer?"

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, because it's been pointed out to me

16 that if we don't put the document on the ELMO, at least the accused won't

17 be able to follow.

18 MR. BOURGON: Very good point.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So we need to -- so usher -- she won't hear me now.

20 If we can put it on the ELMO, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You were asking me if I had ever

22 been an operations duty officer, and the answer below is very clear. Yes,

23 I was an operations duty officer, but not at that time.

24 MR. BOURGON: Thank you. I move to the next question.

25 Q. Did you also tell the investigator at that time, when he asked you

Page 10527

1 if you performed duty officer duties in July of 1995, and your answer

2 was - I'm still on page 13 in your version - "I don't recall exactly. I

3 might have, but during the period of Srebrenica event, I was not on

4 duties. I really don't recall exact date when I was on duty." Page 14,

5 B/C/S. It's the first thing right at the top of the page.

6 All I'd like to know, Mr. Galic: Is this the answer you gave the

7 investigator?

8 A. I don't remember. It probably is, but I don't recall. And if I

9 just may say one thing. All the interviews in which I was questioned, I

10 always answered on the basis of my recollection. I didn't have a single

11 map or a single document that I could use as a reminder in answering these

12 questions. For that reason, it's very difficult for me to say I was

13 operations duty officer or duty officer in such-and-such a place at

14 such-and-such a time. I simply don't recall. I don't have a single

15 document to remind me what I was doing, when I was doing it.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. I will move on, because I'm sure that if

17 there is an issue with this, my colleague will, of course, in his

18 re-examination give you the chance to explain.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object at this point. He's not putting his case

21 to the witness. He didn't put his case to the witness regarding the

22 personnel issues, whatever that was about, and he's not putting his case

23 to the witness on this particular issue. And that's not my responsibility

24 on redirect.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, do you wish to comment on that?

Page 10528

1 MR. BOURGON: I don't think that I have to be more clear than I

2 have been so far, Mr. President. This witness has testified that he was

3 on duty at the IKM on the 15th, and he has a statement that he gave to the

4 investigators in which he says, "I was not on duty." I don't think I have

5 to be more clear than that. I think it's quite obvious, what is my

6 position, and that's why I want the witness to confirm what he said to the

7 investigator in July of 19 -- in 2001, sorry.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: If that's what he's putting to the witness, he

10 needs to do that under these rules so the witness can explain, and

11 that's -- that's the law. And the witness has that right. I don't have

12 to try to get the witness to explain everything that gets dangled up in

13 the air like that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's also in your own interest, Mr. Bourgon, should

17 you later wish to address this particular matter later on. I think the

18 point raised by Mr. McCloskey deserves to be acknowledged. What we are

19 asking you to do is to confront the witness with his statement and other

20 affirmations so that we go straight to the point.

21 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, that's exactly what I'm doing with

22 the witness. He gave an interview. All I'm asking him is to say "yes"

23 or "no," whether this is his statement when he met --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But he also --

25 MR. BOURGON: And then putting my case, I can do that at any point

Page 10529

1 during my cross-examination, and I can -- because there's a follow-up,

2 there's a sequence of events, and it is my choice, Mr. President, with all

3 due respect, to say when I will tell the witness exactly what my case is.

4 But he has a first interview, he has a second interview, and I plan to go

5 through both interviews, and at the right moment I will then state my case

6 to the witness.

7 Thank you, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

9 MR. JOSSE: We're just a bit concerned that the witness should

10 perhaps take off his headphones, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think the witness understands a little bit of

12 English, too, if I got it right. Do you see how quickly he reacted? And

13 let's see this.

14 Mr. Galic, do you understand English? Do you understand English?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very little.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's better if he leaves the courtroom.

17 Basically, what we've suggested is the following: That if there

18 is one affirmation one way and another affirmation which goes a different

19 direction, what Mr. McCloskey pointed out is that you should put to the

20 witness the opportunity -- give the witness the opportunity to explain why

21 he made one statement on one occasion and another statement on another

22 occasion.

23 [The witness stands down].

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: In some cases it's very clear when Defence

Page 10530

1 says, "You said X," and we know their point is "Y" has occurred, I won't

2 object, but what we have in this situation, we have two positions. We

3 have the brigade operations duty officer and we have the forward command

4 post duty officer. What's being referred to in the interview is one

5 thing. What's being referred to in court may be another. So we're

6 getting in a confused situation, so that without him putting his case to

7 the witness, I don't think it's very helpful to figure out what is being

8 said.

9 The other problem I have is that the way the questions -- these

10 aren't real questions. He's just saying, "Was this asked to you and was

11 this your answer?" That's not -- in pure adversarial practice, that's not

12 allowed, because you have to impeach the witness or you have to set a

13 foundation before you can do that. You just don't read something and

14 say, "Was this your answer?" That gets us nowhere. I know we're not in

15 that system, thank God, but you can see we're going nowhere with these

16 sorts of questions. He's just saying, "Yes, that's my -- that's the way I

17 responded," so there's no confronting him with his case. We're getting a

18 confused dual subject here. So that's why I objected.

19 The other point is Mr. Bourgon, which I did not want to mention in

20 front of the witness, said, "Someone told us --" I can't remember what it

21 was, "X," and the witness said, "No, that was never told to me." Well, I

22 think it's incumbent on Mr. Bourgon to tell the person the name of the

23 person that told him that, because if Mr. Bourgon wants to bring that

24 person back, he has to give this witness a chance to fully respond. And

25 when you don't tell the person the name, you don't give them the chance to

Page 10531

1 fully response, and he should be prevented from bringing back person "X".

2 If we want to get into the adversarial process, which is what we're doing

3 here.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

5 MR. BOURGON: I must completely disagree with my colleague,

6 Mr. President. I have a series of questions, I have over 150 questions.

7 I cannot, at every single question, tell the witness, "You said this and

8 that's contrary to what the Prosecution asked of you." I cannot say that.

9 There are two full interviews, and I want to establish what his answers

10 were with the investigator when he met him for the first time and then

11 there is a second interview, what his answers were, because he changed his

12 mind in the second interview. That's what I want to establish. I don't

13 have to explain that to him, that, "I want to establish what you said

14 differently in the second interview from the first interview." I can't

15 every single question say, "That's contrary to what you said." I will put

16 my case and I'm putting my case as I go along.

17 Now, what my colleague is saying, that this is -- I completely

18 disagree. This is my cross-examination. I ask the question, and if I

19 don't mention some information, I can very likely say, "I've got some

20 information to that regard. What are you saying?" He gives an answer. If

21 I -- later I decide to bring evidence to the contrary, that will be my

22 choice, and I will suffer the consequences because the Trial Chamber won't

23 be able to make a ruling on it. That's what my understanding of the

24 Trial Chamber's decision was.

25 So what I'm doing right now, I'm simply going through the

Page 10532

1 interview so that the Trial Chamber is aware of what he said in that

2 interview and of what he said in the second interview, and as we go along,

3 I will tell him, "How come you change your mind?" And that's very simple,

4 and there's no surprise, and the witness quite understands where I'm

5 going, and everybody in this courtroom understands except Mr. McCloskey.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you need a break, Mr. McCloskey?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Maybe that will help me understand.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you wish to comment on both statements by

9 Mr. Bourgon?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can comment briefly. Mr. Bourgon had left the

11 topic, he told us he had left the topic hanging in the air, and that's

12 without putting him to -- the case to the witness. I'm from the

13 background that he's from. We don't have to put our case -- that I'm used

14 to, but that's not this system, as we all know. And you can see why the

15 British have developed that system and we've adopted it, because it leaves

16 the situation that is not going to be helpful in resolving this, and it

17 puts the burden on the other party to go through and clean up a lot of

18 things that were left hanging.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have the break, but before we do, the position

22 is as follows, Mr. Bourgon, and again I reiterate that it's, we believe,

23 in your own interest, considering what we have in our rules in relation to

24 what should be put to a witness on cross-examination. If it is your

25 position that he was either on duty or not on duty on the respective date,

Page 10533

1 we expect you at some point in time - you choose the time, of course,

2 because we will not dare intervene in your cross-examination - but you

3 choose the time to put that to the witness and give him the opportunity to

4 deal with it. And we are quite confident, because we heard you say so,

5 that you will be doing so.

6 MR. BOURGON: Absolutely, Mr. President. This is, of course, my

7 intention to put my case to the witness when the time will come, but there

8 are two interviews which are very different, and I need to go through the

9 first one, put these questions, and then I will put my case and go to the

10 next questions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are not stopping you, but yet we

12 think Mr. McCloskey needs a break, so we will, and it is our opinion also,

13 and no offence, Mr. Bourgon, that perhaps you could speed up this part of

14 your cross-examination.

15 MR. BOURGON: I will do my best. There were technical problems

16 for which I apologise, but I will do my best to speed it up. Thank you,

17 Mr. President.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We'll have a 25-minute break, and if

19 you're still not understanding, Mr. McCloskey, perhaps you can tell us.

20 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon, you may proceed along the lines

23 that we indicated.

24 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I will endeavour to move

25 more quickly. I think it will not be required to use the e-court at all.

Page 10534

1 I think I will just give the witness the written statement in his hands,

2 and I don't think it is necessary at this point for any of the accused to

3 really see that because they will hear my questions as well as the

4 answers, and we can move more quickly.

5 Q. Mr. Galic, can you take in your hands the document that was given

6 and move straight to page 14 in B/C/S, in your -- page 14.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you a series of questions. All I'm looking

9 for is a "yes" or a "no" in terms of if this is what you remember saying

10 or answering the investigator. Now, I'm looking at page 14 before you.

11 The investigator --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Bourgon.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get the English?

14 MR. BOURGON: I know it would help with the English, and I think

15 the Prosecutor wants me to take more time, but I will put the English up,

16 and on the English it will be page 10.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we need to see it, too, so if it's left on

18 e-court, at least we'll be able to follow better.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think the witness should be allowed to

20 explain any answers that are necessary, not be limited by his direction

21 from counsel.

22 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, it's my cross-examination and I will

23 give the witness all the opportunity to answer, if we can get through

24 these questions, so I can do the foundation that my colleague was asking

25 for. I said I will put my case, and I will put my case, Mr. President.

Page 10535

1 I'd like my colleague to please let me work.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Bourgon.

3 MR. BOURGON: Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Galic, referring to page 14, I refer you to the question which

5 was put to you by Mr. Manning:

6 "Just to clarify something you said, during the period of

7 Srebrenica you were not duty officer. What period would you define that

8 as in the way you just used the term?"

9 Your answer was: "The period I'm referring to is the period when

10 our unit left, so from the 4th or the 5th of July until the moment they

11 returned. That's the 15th of July. That's the period."

12 Is that one of your answers, Mr. Galic?

13 A. In answer to the question whether I was the operations officer on

14 duty, I said, "No," because that was done at the brigade command, and that

15 is why I said that I can't remember. I probably was, but I can't

16 remember.

17 Q. My next question is, Mr. Manning went on to say:

18 "Do you recall who was performing duty officer's function during

19 that period?"

20 And your answer was: "It's been a long time. I can't recall.

21 I'm a separate service that performed their job. I was very little

22 involved in those details, and I don't recall, I don't really know."

23 I'm asking you, was that an answer you gave to the investigator,

24 Dean Manning, on page 14?

25 A. Yes, those are the answers.

Page 10536

1 Q. I'd like to move up to page 12 in English and along with page 17

2 in your language, Mr. Galic. The question which was put to you on page 17

3 was the following -- no, sorry, I have to go to -- try to make quicker.

4 Page 14 in English, page 20 in your language.

5 Now, I refer you, Mr. Galic, it's at the end of page 19 and the

6 beginning of page 20 in your language, but it's page 14 in English. The

7 question was:

8 "Do you, during the period from the 10th of July until the 20th of

9 July, were you in the Zvornik Brigade headquarters the whole period?"

10 Your answer was: "Yes, with the possibility that in the

11 meantime, I went to the Ministry of Defence, but there was also some work

12 to be done about the new recruits who were supposed to be sent in the

13 army. Generally, I was there, I was present. I cannot recall the exact

14 details, whether I was doing something else somewhere in the unit.

15 "Where was the Ministry of Defence?"

16 Your answer was: "Zvornik."

17 Do you recall that was your answer to the investigator?

18 A. I gave these answers to the investigators, but if I may add, as I

19 said earlier on, without having any documents and being informed about

20 certain things, I could not claim with great certainty what I was doing

21 and where I was. That is why my answers are like they are.

22 Q. I would like to have on e-court, please, document number P1047

23 [Realtime transcript read in error "P1407"]. I will ask you to look at

24 the screen before you, Mr. Galic, and look at this document, which is the

25 duty roster of Zvornik Brigade command for July of 1995.

Page 10537

1 Do you recall being shown this document by Mr. Manning?

2 A. Yes, but this was not the duty schedule, but the presence of

3 personnel in the unit.

4 Q. Indeed. And did Mr. Manning draw your attention to your name,

5 which is before the number "7" on this chart, and he asked you to go

6 through each single day to show where you were? Did he do that with you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you recall that he asked you what the two "T"s meant under the

9 dates 14 and 15; do you recall that he asked that of you?

10 A. He must have asked, yes.

11 Q. And do you recall that your answer to that question, how you

12 justified those "T"s, you mentioned that this "T" meant "Terrain" [phoen];

13 is that correct?

14 A. Those were the markings we used. Whoever kept this roster, he

15 would give -- indicate certain signs to reflect presence.

16 Q. Now, I would like to refer you to the document you have in your

17 hands, and that is on page 21, towards the end, and the beginning of page

18 22. In English, page 15. The question by Mr. Manning was:

19 "Where its recorded against your name the letters "T" and "T" for

20 the 14th and the 15th of July? Where were you on those days?"

21 Your answer was: "I cannot state for sure, but on the 15th, once

22 the unit returned on the 15th, upon the return of the unit, I had a phone

23 conversation with Pandurevic, so I didn't see him but I talked to him, and

24 I was supposed to pass the order to Dragutinovic that once he returns from

25 Srebrenica, he was supposed to march in the direction of Crni Vrh and

Page 10538

1 Caparde, and on the 14th we had arrival of recruits together with the

2 Ministry of Defence that I told you about. That day, I assume they put it

3 that I was outside the barracks, but I was in the field because of the

4 Ministry."

5 Do you recall giving this answer, Mr. Galic?

6 A. That is what it says here, but I repeat again, because I didn't

7 have sufficient information, this was all on the basis of memory, and it

8 was corrected later on when a document was shown to me from which I could

9 see that I was engaged and absent. So I was shown this roster of presence

10 and later an indication of duty work. I didn't know that at the time.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Galic, without any documents at the time, and I will --

12 of course we will go through that document you're talking about, which was

13 the one that was shown to you by the Prosecution, my question is: You

14 remember the conversation with Pandurevic, did you?

15 A. No. I corrected myself later and said, no, I didn't talk to

16 Pandurevic, but the message was conveyed to me that I should pass on the

17 message to this Major Dragutinovic in connection with this assignment.

18 Q. And you remember that you did get such a message to pass on to

19 Dragutinovic; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Now, you were also shown a -- I look here in the document that is

22 with you, and I refer you to page 24 in your language, and in English it's

23 page 16. You were specifically asked by Mr. Manning:

24 "Why is it that it seems strange that on the 12th of July, you

25 were on leave, which was the period when Srebrenica fell?"

Page 10539

1 And your answer was: "I worked normally. I didn't have anything

2 special. Nothing special was happening to me on the 1st, the 15th or the

3 30th."

4 Was that your answer at the time?

5 A. Yes, it was. According to the schedule, I was on leave, and I

6 went to visit my family, to have a bath, to change my clothing. That's

7 what I used the day for.

8 Q. Now, I refer you now to page 25 of the document that you have

9 before you, and the question which was put to you then, page 16 in English

10 also:

11 "Can you tell me what dealings you had with Obrenovic in the

12 period, let's say, from the 13th until the return of Pandurevic?"

13 Your answer, page 17 in English, always page 25 for you: "I did

14 not have any contact with him. I didn't have any need for it, nor I

15 contacted him."

16 Do you recall that this was your answer?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, always on the same page, it says the investigator Manning was

19 asking: "I'm wondering if Pandurevic was in the field and battling with

20 the column, the 28th Division. Should he be calling for reinforcements?"

21 And your answer was, always page 25 before you:

22 "He didn't request. There were some losses, and I was in charge

23 to keep the records, together with the assistant for morale, as well as to

24 keep the records of the wounded, injured, for their further treatment,

25 keeping records in those commissions."

Page 10540

1 Do you recall that this was your answer?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If you move to the next page, page 26 in your language, always 17

4 in English:

5 "Did Obrenovic ask for reinforcement?"

6 Your answer was: "No."

7 What I'm interested in is your answer which follows a little down,

8 line 16 in English, because the question was:

9 "Can you tell me any details of the military actions that were

10 occurring following the fall of Srebrenica? What battles were fought and

11 where the column was?"

12 Your response was: "I don't have those details. I was not

13 involved in that. I'm a personnel officer. I'm tied to the office, and

14 then they called us sometimes. If I may say, use this term, they called

15 us "office rats". That's because of the health and the age, me and some

16 other individuals were assigned to those duties."

17 Do you recall this being your answer to the investigator?

18 A. Yes, but I'm just following what you are saying.

19 Q. If you just move down in the same page, the question was: "Did

20 you spend the major of your time in brigade headquarters?"

21 And your response was: "Yes, in the barracks."

22 Do you recall answering this in 2001?

23 A. Which year?

24 Q. The interview with Manning in 2001.

25 A. Yes, yes, yes.

Page 10541

1 Q. Allow me to move to the next -- the next part, and that is page --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Bourgon.


4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon, we are inviting you to try and

6 conclude this part of your evidence, please.

7 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. I refer you, Witness, to page 37 in the document you have before

9 you, and it's the end of page 36. For the sake of time, we'll move on.

10 Please move straight to page 39.

11 You were shown a combat report during your examination-in-chief by

12 the Prosecution. I'd like to have this combat report back on the screen,

13 and that was number P329.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: English, if you've got it.

15 MR. BOURGON: It's yours. I guess you showed it to the witness in

16 your examination-in-chief. If not --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Interview --

18 MR. BOURGON: That's not the interview. I'm talking about the

19 combat report that was shown by my colleague in examination-in-chief.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I know that, but you've referred him to the

21 transcript, and that's what I was asking about.

22 MR. BOURGON: Yes. English, 25.

23 Q. Mr. Galic, you see the document before you, and in your

24 examination-in-chief you were asked whether you recognised the signature

25 as being that of the commander, and you said, "Yes."

Page 10542

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were asked whether you recognised the handwriting, and you

3 also said, yes, as that of being of Mr. Bojanovic. My question to you is:

4 Look at page 38 of the document before you. I'd like to know how come it

5 is that in 2001, when you were asked, "Do you recognise the handwriting or

6 signature," you said, "Handwriting, no, but the signature, yes." Why is

7 it that today you recognised the handwriting, but not back in 2001?

8 A. Because Ljubo Bojanovic told me that himself, and later, in other

9 handwritten notes by him, we compared them, and that is what it is.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Galic, my question is very simple. Unless you were told

11 by Mr. Bojanovic that this was his writing, you could not, in 2001,

12 recognise this writing; is that correct?

13 A. You are right. It is impossible for me to recognise the

14 handwriting of a hundred people. I knew most of them. What I knew, I

15 said. What I didn't, I didn't. Later on, I recognised certain things,

16 and allow me the possibility to correct myself.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. Would I be right in saying that you,

18 because of your duty, would you see any -- the question was put to you

19 whether you would see any combat reports come through your section, and

20 your answer was, "No combat report, no intelligence report, only personnel

21 reports." Would that be a fair summary of what you answered the

22 investigator in 2001?

23 A. Please, I have to point out I can't find everything here. You're

24 speaking quickly. Not a single combat report, operations report,

25 intelligence and so on never went to the personnel service, nor was there

Page 10543

1 any need for that, because the personnel service has a certain area of

2 responsibility, which I have described, so all these reports go to other

3 services and not to the personnel service, which has no responsibility in

4 those areas. The only thing is the part of the operations report, as

5 prescribed by certain regulations, is provided.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. Mr. Galic, I'd like to move on straight to

7 the second interview, but first of all I'd like to ask you: During that

8 first interview, and I will try to summarise in a broad manner what you

9 answered the investigator, that you were always in the barracks at that

10 time; that you did not perform duties; that you explained the markings on

11 the document, the roster, by saying that you were at the Ministry of

12 Defence or that you were receiving recruits on the 14th; that you were

13 quite aware of the fighting situation where Commander Pandurevic had been

14 before the 15th and where Commander Pandurevic was after the 15th,

15 fighting the troops in Baljkovica.

16 Now, I tell you, Mr. Galic, and I suggest to you that, in fact,

17 all of this information that you said here was true and that you have

18 never been at the IKM on July of 1995, on the 13th at night. Is there a

19 possibility that, in fact, you were not at the IKM in July -- on the 13th

20 of July of 2005 -- sorry, 1995?

21 A. I have to clarify. In this question, you have summarised at least

22 30 questions, which I'm unable to follow and to respond to. Could you

23 please ask me question by question? I really am not able to follow, and I

24 don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. I appeal to you, I

25 have said that I didn't have the documents on the basis of which I could

Page 10544

1 remember all the details and dates. If you ask me when I arrived in

2 The Hague, I may make a mistake. Now you have asked me 30 questions all

3 condensed into one. I am unable to answer in that way. If you can ask me

4 question by question, I'll be glad to answer them if I can.

5 Allow me. When you spoke to me, Mr. Lawyer, you didn't draw

6 attention to all these points. You discussed many issues with me, and you

7 didn't ask me any such questions. You, too, gave me certain documents

8 that I saw for the first time when you gave them to me. So how can I

9 remember? It would be not fair to ask me to answer questions without

10 having insight into documents.

11 Your Honours, please, if I may, by your leave, Your Honours, may

12 I --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: What would you like to tell us?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This -- they keep saying, "You said

15 this, you said that." I did say it without any precise data that were

16 available to me. To this day, I don't have such data. It's unnatural to

17 ask me to know all these precisions. Yes, certain documents were shown to

18 me. I said, yes, I was there, but I forgot, I didn't know. And if these

19 questions could be shorter, more concise, more precise, I'll try and

20 answer them. I am unable to answer a question that contains 30 questions

21 within it. I cannot do that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's simplify the whole matter. There's only one

23 question that is being put to you, which if you could kindly answer, now

24 that Mr. Bourgon has gone through with you all your statements, previous

25 statements and documents that you have mentioned, which understandably

Page 10545

1 could have confused you. The question is one, and would you allow for the

2 possibility that on the night of the 13th of July, 2005 [sic], you were

3 not at the IKM, as you have sometimes maintained you have been? Would you

4 allow for the possibility that you weren't at the IKM on the 13th of July,

5 2000 -- 1995, at night? Would you accept that proposition?

6 A. I was on duty, which was not a regular occurrence in the night

7 between the 13th and the 14th of July, 1995, at the forward command post.

8 Yes, that is correct.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. He has answered your question, Mr. Bourgon.

10 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bourgon, can I ask you whether it is your case

12 that the IKM logbook, 65 ter 347, was made up and he lied?

13 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Judge, that's exactly my case.

14 JUDGE KWON: Put it to the witness directly.

15 MR. BOURGON: Well, I'm coming to that.

16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

17 MR. BOURGON: Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Bourgon.


20 Q. Now, you had a second interview with Mr. Manning; do you recall

21 that, Mr. Galic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you recall that before the second interview, you had a

24 meeting with Mr. Dragutinovic?

25 A. It was not a meeting. We are friends and neighbours, and we see

Page 10546

1 each other almost every day, especially nowadays when he's retired too.

2 Q. Mr. Galic, both you and Mr. Dragutinovic had attended an interview

3 with the Office of the Prosecution, and you discussed trying to make out

4 or trying to understand the situation of July 1995; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, I attended the discussion, and so did Dragutinovic.

6 Q. Now, I'd like to also ask you, Mr. Galic, before the first

7 interview, did you not ask the corps whether they had any documents

8 concerning the events of July 1995, and they told you that they did no

9 longer have these documents; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you tell Mr. Manning that because of this document - I'm

12 talking about the IKM logbook or duty officer's logbook - that this was

13 the basis for you to say that you were on duty on the 13th of July, 1995?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And did you tell the investigator that the only reason or -- I

16 don't want to say -- I don't want to misquote you. The reason why you

17 suddenly remember being on duty was because you had conversations with

18 colleagues?

19 A. One of the possibilities, in fact one of the reasons that I

20 realised I had been on duty, is also that discussion, because they showed

21 me that document. Otherwise, I had never had it before me before. And

22 without it, I wouldn't have remembered anything.

23 Q. That's exactly my point. Without this document, you would have

24 maintained your version that you were not at the IKM, because in fact you

25 were not there. That's what the book says, and that's why you adjusted

Page 10547

1 your answers to what the book said?

2 A. I'm not following you anymore. Are you now denying that on the

3 13th and the 14th, I was on duty at the IKM?

4 Q. Absolutely, Mr. Galic. I'm proposing to you that you were not at

5 the IKM the night of the 13th and that the only reason you're saying that

6 today is because you saw something written in the book.

7 A. I can't understand, then, why that would have been written that

8 way, because between then and 2001 or '2, I never saw that document. I

9 can't accept that I just made that up and wrote it down then. It is the

10 nature of my job and it was my nature that I would never have done such a

11 thing, and that's why I can't accept what you're putting to me. How would

12 I take a piece of paper and write a document that is pure fabrication,

13 that is my invention? What you are saying is something I cannot accept at

14 all. I disagree completely.

15 Q. Mr. Galic, we will -- I would like you -- my next question is

16 simply: Do you recall that before your second interview, when you told

17 the investigator that suddenly you remembered being on duty on the 13th,

18 that you were visited at your place by the Defence team of Mr. Obrenovic,

19 who by that time had been accused by the International Tribunal; do you

20 recall that?

21 A. There was a discussion, but I don't know whether I said that or

22 something else or how I said it. I'm asserting only one thing. The

23 logbook and the roster is something that only you lawyers showed to me

24 first, and in fact it was first the investigators who showed these

25 documents to me and then you, the lawyers.

Page 10548

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Galic, it's still not clear from

2 your answer whether before the second interview took place you were

3 visited at your place, to your home, by the Defence team of Mr. Obrenovic.

4 Do you recall being -- receiving a visit from the Defence team of

5 Mr. Obrenovic before the second -- your second interview took place,

6 sometime before?

7 A. I don't remember exactly the date, but that visit by Defence

8 lawyers and Mr. Obrenovic and Mr. Nikolic and I don't know who else was an

9 occasion when I saw that document. And of course when I saw it, then

10 naturally it jogged my memory and I tried to recollect exactly what the

11 date was. And what I'm saying is exclusively based on the records entered

12 in the roster.


14 Q. Mr. Galic, you just mentioned that you were visited by Obrenovic

15 lawyers, as well as Mr. Nikolic. Now, I'd like you to confirm that those

16 are two separate things. When you were visited by the lawyer for

17 Mr. Obrenovic, you stated in your interview that there was an American and

18 someone from Bosnia and as well as an interpreter; is that correct?

19 A. I said what I said. I can't remember all the details now. People

20 introduced themselves to me and I tried to remember. I don't know if I

21 remember correctly.

22 Q. Now, my question is: Did you recall telling members representing

23 Mr. Nikolic later on about this visit, when you were visited by the

24 lawyers for Mr. Obrenovic, and that they showed up at your place with four

25 cars with sirens, and that you thought you were being arrested? Do you

Page 10549

1 remember that?

2 A. Come on now. That's total fabrication. What sirens, what

3 vehicles, what security? Come off it. This is, after all, a court of

4 law. I never said these things. Sirens, vehicles, I mean, to say that

5 it's inappropriate is to put it mildly. I never said any such thing.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, go ahead.


8 Q. Mr. Galic, you mentioned to the Prosecution that you do not

9 remember who it is that woke you up the night of the 13th; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. You don't remember the name of the driver who took you to the IKM;

13 is that correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. You mentioned in your interview that the order came from the duty

16 officer. Do you recall the name of the duty officer that night?

17 A. I don't remember, but that's verifiable. You can check that in

18 the records, in the entries made in the command of the brigade.

19 Q. Well, Mr. Galic, we checked in the logbook of the duty officer,

20 and there is no such thing that you were ordered to go to the IKM that

21 night. Maybe you have something else you can tell us that came from the

22 duty officer. Do you recall that?

23 A. I cannot tell you much about that. If they woke me up and hauled

24 me over to the forward command post, then I took a driver and a vehicle

25 and I went. How, in which way, I can't understand your suggestions that I

Page 10550

1 could have gone into the field on my own initiative, on my whim at that

2 time.

3 Q. Mr. Galic, do you remember the car, what type of car it was that

4 took you to the IKM?

5 A. I don't remember. How could I?

6 Q. And, Mr. Galic, do you remember that when you got to the IKM that

7 night, it must have been, according to what you said, around 2300 hours,

8 11.00 at night, do you remember seeing anything particular that night that

9 really stood out? Do you have any recollection of any major detail that

10 night?

11 A. No.

12 Q. I take it, Mr. Galic, that you have no recollection seeing a big

13 fire burning near Nezuk; is that correct?

14 A. I didn't see it. They may have put it out by the time I arrived.

15 Q. And I take it that you don't know the names of the two persons

16 that were in the IKM at that time.

17 A. No.

18 Q. And I take it, Mr. Galic, you don't know the name of the neighbour

19 of the IKM. Do you know who the neighbour is?

20 A. You mean civilians? Is that what you mean?

21 Q. There's a house immediately beside the IKM. Do you know which

22 house I'm talking about? Immediately to the right.

23 A. I don't know how to put it. How am I supposed to remember the

24 name of the neighbours? I know these houses up there, but I don't know

25 this -- the names of the people inhabiting that hamlet called Delici. I

Page 10551

1 didn't go door to door to ask their names. I really don't know.

2 Q. Mr. Galic, I will put it to you that those we spoke to who were

3 duty officers at the IKM know very well Mr. Djokic, who would do coffee

4 for those who were on duty at the IKM. Do you have any recollection of

5 that?

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. He needs to state the

7 names of people if he's going to put this kind of an allegation to a

8 witness.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

10 MR. BOURGON: I said, Mr. President, that I spoke to those people

11 who were on duty at the IKM. He knows who they are because he answered

12 that question for my colleague, Mr. McCloskey. So people who were on

13 duty, we have information from them that states that they went to

14 Mr. Djokic's house immediately beside the IKM to drink coffee. I'm asking

15 him if that ever happened to him, does he know Mr. Djokic.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: My objection was clear, the names of the soldiers

18 at the IKM that he's calling -- such an allegation needs more than just

19 people.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, you know what our ruling has been in

23 the past on such like matters. We do not, of course, force you to reveal

24 the names of these individuals now, because at the end of the day you

25 might wish to call them and seek protective measures for them. However,

Page 10552

1 the way you put the question, it is very generic, people who were on duty

2 at the IKM, but when? Was it on the night of the 13th and 14th, was it on

3 the morning of the 14th, because understandably the complement on duty

4 there could have changed from one hour to the other. So if you can at

5 least be precise as to which precise time you're referring to.

6 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I would simply modify my

7 question in order to save time, but first I have to be -- to be fair with

8 the witness, I need first to start pronouncing the name right, because I

9 said "Djokic" and it's not that at all, it's Jelkic, and I will ask the

10 following question.

11 Q. Mr. Galic, do you know that there is a Mr. Jelkic who lives beside

12 the IKM?

13 A. No, I never heard of that family in Kitovnice. In Kitovnice,

14 there is not a single family bearing the surname of Jelkic. There is

15 simply no one by that name there.

16 Q. Mr. Galic, can you describe for us the observation tower? How

17 high is it?

18 A. The observation tower at the east post is, as I said, 500, 600

19 metres outside the command post in the direction of the separation line at

20 an elevation, and it was built according to all military regulations in

21 order to observe the defence line to the extent possible from that vantage

22 point. It is protected, weather-proofed, and built in such a way as to

23 protect the personnel from shelling, and similarly all other security is

24 provided to the security personnel on that observation tower.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. I will ask you now to -- if you can give

Page 10553

1 us -- you said in your examination-in-chief that the IKM was a small

2 house, that it was a vacation house. How many beds were inside,

3 Mr. Galic?

4 A. I have to correct myself. That's not the way I put it. That

5 house is not an observation post. It is correct that this prefab house

6 housed the forward command post, whereas the observation tower is 500, 600

7 metres further on. That house is a prefab one, and the area is perhaps 20

8 square metres.

9 Q. I'm talking about, Mr. Galic, specifically the house -- the IKM

10 itself. How many beds were inside?

11 A. There were two beds.

12 Q. Now, and just to be fair with you, I'm asking you these questions

13 because later on I will give you names of persons who worked there as

14 radio operators, who will say, and I will give you the names, who said

15 that you were never at the IKM and that you were never on duty there, and

16 then we'll go through the book together. But, first of all, I'd like you

17 to say -- can you describe what kind of radio equipment or communications

18 equipment was at the IKM?

19 A. There were means of communication, but I know nothing about them,

20 and I didn't know anything about them then. It's all Greek to me. Some

21 communication devices were used. Which, I don't know.

22 Q. Was there a radio?

23 A. A radio device, certainly, because there were radio

24 communications. But the type of that radio device, I cannot tell you.

25 And there was also a telephone line.

Page 10554

1 Q. And what kind of telephone was it? Was that the military line or

2 was that a civilian line?

3 A. Both. But to explain to you the difference is something I cannot

4 do. I don't know the principles of operation of either of them. If

5 somebody calls, I pick up the receiver, communication proceeds. But what

6 kind of line that is, how it is fed, I really don't know.

7 Q. Now, before we conclude today, Mr. Galic, I'd like you to -- to

8 ask you a few questions before we get into the book, simply that when you

9 were asked to go to the IKM, if indeed you were asked, did you not

10 complain to anyone as to why you were asked to go to the IKM when, in the

11 next few days, you had a big incoming of recruits?

12 A. Let me clear up this first. As far as the forward command post is

13 concerned, it is the job of the duty officer to deploy his own time when

14 he will be at the observation post, when he is going to take a rest or do

15 other things. Another thing is nobody is irreplaceable. If, in my

16 absence, there are other persons, there were other persons who can replace

17 me or anyone else, so in my absence there would be a clerk or another

18 officer who would do my job. It is not something that only I could do.

19 It doesn't mean that I -- when I leave, they lock up and no work is done

20 anymore. There is always somebody standing in. That's the way it's

21 always been.

22 Q. That wasn't quite my question. Did you complain or ask questions

23 to anyone as to why you were sent to the IKM on the 13th at night, if

24 indeed you were asked?

25 A. Nobody asked --

Page 10555

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: There's no reason to throw in that last editorial.

2 That's an argumentative editorial designed to inflame the witness, which

3 is just not necessary, and I think we've had enough of it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll soon have a well-merited break, and we can

5 continue tomorrow.

6 MR. BOURGON: Yes, Mr. President. I need to say that I disagree

7 with my colleague. He's been asking me to put my case, so I have to put

8 my case, so I say, "If you were there, what did you do?" So I'm just

9 putting my case, as my colleague requested me to do. So I -- I don't

10 think it's a proper objection.

11 Q. Now, in your interview --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Two minutes more.


14 Q. In your interview, the second interview, Mr. Galic, you mentioned

15 that during the time that you were there, and I have to say, "if you were

16 there," because I think you were not there, you mention in that interview

17 that you were not visited by anybody during that time period; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, I have the information, but I don't have the time to show it

21 to you. What if I tell you that the officer on duty at the

22 Zvornik Brigade received information from the security officer, and I'm

23 not talking of Drago Nikolic, says the security, I will remove "officer,"

24 who was present at the IKM, what do you say to that? And I will show you

25 the entry in the logbook tomorrow.

Page 10556

1 A. Each one of us, including me, will act depending on the

2 information we have, that is, the information notified to the duty

3 officer. What kind of information that is, I don't know.

4 MR. BOURGON: I think we can stop here, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I agree.

6 JUDGE KWON: Just one housekeeping matter. 65 number of the duty

7 roster which appears in transcript page 62, line 9, in the personal

8 computer, should read "1047" instead of "1407"; am I right?

9 MR. BOURGON: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that brings your testimony to an end here

12 for today. You will return tomorrow in the afternoon at 2.15 to continue

13 and hopefully finish your testimony, Mr. Galic.

14 Before you leave the courtroom, I need to make sure that you

15 understand that between now and when you finish your testimony, that's

16 between now and tomorrow, you do not discuss with anyone the matters on

17 which you are testifying. You're not to allow anyone to approach you and

18 discuss or you approach anyone to discuss this subject matter. All right?

19 Is that clear?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear, and I read the rules

21 that were given me even before I came here.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 So I wish everyone -- yes, Mr. Bourgon.

24 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, very quickly, I will be no more than

25 30 minutes tomorrow. However, I cannot be here for the early -- the

Page 10557

1 beginning of the session. And I asked my colleague, Mr. Haynes, if he

2 wanted to step in, and I'll do my 30 minutes after him. With your leave,

3 Mr. President, that's how we will proceed.


5 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem.

7 So good evening, and we'll meet again tomorrow.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7:03 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of April,

10 2007, at 2.15 p.m.