Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10636

1 Friday, 27 April 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9:04 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, everybody, and welcome.

7 Madam Usher -- Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ma'am.

11 All the accused are present. From the Defence teams, I notice

12 the absence of Mr. Krgovic and the absence of Mr. Ostojic and Ms. Condon.

13 Mr. Meek, the reason I assume Mr. Stojanovic is busy working

14 elsewhere?

15 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And the same place for Ms. Condon.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Prosecution, I notice Mr. McCloskey; that's

19 it. One against seven or times three.

20 Good morning to you, Mr. Galic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are going to proceed with your

23 testimony this morning, but we are going to do so with the bench

24 consisting of three Judges only. Judge Stole couldn't be with us today,

25 and, therefore, we are in agreement sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis (a).

Page 10637

1 Okay. How are you feeling this morning? Are you better?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A little worse than yesterday, but

3 I'll manage.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We hope to bring your testimony to an end as soon

5 as possible.

6 Mr. Bourgon, you were still in possession. Please go ahead and

7 try to conclude as quickly as you can, please. Avoid repetitions.

8 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.


10 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon (Continued):

11 Q. Good Morning, Mr. Galic. Let me begin by going back to the

12 forward command post Kitovnica operations duty log, and if I can have

13 this on E-court, P347 [Realtime transcript read in error "437"], pages 49

14 in B/C/S and page 44 in English.

15 And that's -- Mr. Galic, this is where we left off yesterday. My

16 first question, which you can answer, is that you recognise the signature

17 of Major Obrenovic, do you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Obrenovic, where he signs, he states and certifies that

20 this notebook contains 100 pages. Now, I counted the pages, and they are

21 less. Can you explain why?

22 A. Neither did I form this notebook, nor did I certify it, nor did I

23 count the pages. So I don't know. And 12 and more years later, I really

24 can't say anything about something that I didn't do, even if I had done

25 it. After so much time, I wouldn't be able to assert whether there were

Page 10638

1 as many pages as is indicated.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic.

3 For the sake of the transcript, the page we're referring to is

4 ERN 00760316. That will be important for the next question.

5 JUDGE KWON: What was the 65 -- 65 ter number?

6 MR. BOURGON: Well, that's the e-court. I said P347.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, 347. That should be corrected, line 24.

8 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Judge.

9 Q. And I'd like to go back now to the previous page, which is, in

10 B/C/S, page 48, and then again to page 47.

11 Is it possible to have the English version side by side?

12 You notice, Mr. Galic, that the last three pages of this book are

13 empty, which on the English side we can see because the ERN numbers are

14 mentioned, where it says that page 0314 is blank, page 0315 is blank, and

15 the statement by Mr. Obrenovic is on 0316.

16 My question is simply: Can you explain why there are three empty

17 pages at the end of this book?

18 A. I don't know how I can explain it. Probably there was no duty

19 being done, it was not filled, and on the last page is the certification

20 of the notebook. If I understand the question, maybe there was no duty

21 being done during that time, but I don't know.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. Let's go back to English, page 6, and

23 B/C/S, page 8. And I draw your attention, Mr. Galic, to the entry which

24 is for 14 July. You have it in your language.

25 MR. BOURGON: If we can scroll up a bit so the 14 July is easier

Page 10639

1 to see for Mr. Galic. Yes.

2 Q. The entry for the 14th, and the second paragraph, where it says:

3 "Enemy forces are very active over the communication lines and

4 are preparing to attack our forces."

5 Do you see that, Mr. Galic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And since you said that this was your writing, do you -- can you

8 explain to us, what does this refer to, this paragraph? What does this

9 mean?

10 A. These are reports from units that were coming in on the basis of

11 the situation in the field, and through the communication means they

12 heard and understood that the enemy was preparing to attack the positions

13 of our units. That is the gist of this entry in the notebook.

14 Q. And would I be right, Mr. Galic, in saying that whoever wrote

15 this, that it was a person at the IKM, and the mention is that they could

16 listen to the enemy forces; is that correct?

17 A. Operations, yes.

18 Q. Now, when we talk about enemy forces, we're talking about the

19 2nd Corps or the column that was approaching; would you agree?

20 A. In this case, that they are 2nd Corps forces preparing to attack

21 our forces.

22 Q. Now, do you know, Mr. Galic, who or what is Premier?

23 A. Now, let me see if I can remember. It is the code name for

24 someone. Now, I can't remember offhand who it is. There were several

25 such code names, so I can't remember exactly who this was.

Page 10640

1 Q. Maybe I'll try and help you by saying that Premier is the person

2 or persons who could -- who had the capability to intercept

3 communications from the enemy. Does that help you out?

4 A. No, I don't know. I didn't come across that, so I'm not familiar

5 with these things.

6 Q. Because what I would like to suggest to you, Mr. Galic, is that

7 the -- at the forward command post, Zvornik Brigade did not have any

8 capability for listening to enemy forces, and I wonder where that

9 information could come from, that second paragraph.

10 A. I said that it was only from the units that this message could

11 have come, and this was noted. If it had come from some other source, it

12 would have to be conveyed to units, if the information came from some

13 other source. So in my opinion, what is written here is what I've just

14 said. I can't remember anything else.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. Let's move on to a different topic,

16 Exhibit 3D118, which is a three-page document in English and in B/C/S.

17 And just before this document comes up, Mr. Galic: Would you agree with

18 me that the battalions of the Zvornik Brigade did not have any capability

19 to listen in to the conversations of the enemy?

20 A. I don't know, but in that period everyone was listening in to

21 everyone else, and everyone had the capability to intercept

22 communications if they had the necessary equipment; not myself, but there

23 were all kinds of listening in and information obtained in various ways.

24 Q. And do you know, Mr. Galic, that Premier -- I understand you told

25 me you don't know that -- what Premier was, but I suggest to you that

Page 10641

1 Premier would only report his or its information to the Zvornik Brigade

2 command and not to the IKM. Is there anything you can comment on this?

3 A. No, I cannot. I don't know that. I can't.

4 Q. I ask you now, Mr. Galic, to look at the document which is before

5 you, which is the first page of a statement you provided in Bijeljina on

6 28th of August, 2003. Do you recognise what is before you? And then

7 we'll move on to the second and the third page so that you can see the

8 date.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can we move to the next page, please, on both sides? And just on

11 the right side, if we can move to the third page just so that we can see

12 the date, and then we don't need to move the English, which also has the

13 date.

14 Do you recall, Mr. Galic, giving this statement?

15 A. Yes, that was on this date in the afternoon and the evening, I

16 think.

17 Q. And do you remember the date as being 28 August 2003?

18 A. To judge by this document, yes, that is the date.

19 Q. And is this your handwriting, Mr. Galic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If I can refer you back to page 2, so English we don't need to

22 change, but just page 2. Now, this interview took place on 28 August

23 2003, which is after the second interview you had with the Prosecution.

24 My question is: Is there a reason why you stated that you were on duty

25 at the forward command post on the 14th of July, but you did not say

Page 10642

1 anything about being on duty on the 13th of July or the 15th of July?

2 A. I said that I was on duty on the 14th. That's what I said. As

3 for the rest --

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Galic. We will move on to a different topic, and

5 that is the discussion you had with the lawyers of Major Obrenovic. And

6 first I would like you to confirm, because it's not clear from the

7 transcript of your response two days ago, and I quote the reference then

8 was at page 73, lines 17 to 25, and line [sic] 74, lines 11 to 15. I

9 asked you a question, and then the presiding Judge also asked you a

10 question, but I'm not sure it was clear that you did meet with the

11 lawyers of Obrenovic 1 to 1.5 months before your second interview with

12 the Prosecution.

13 A. I said that I had met with them at their request, but not in the

14 way in which you describe those people had arrived. That was what I

15 reacted to. It wasn't in the way you said. They simply came to see me,

16 like any other normal people.

17 Q. Now, what I'm interested in at this time, Mr. Galic, is not the

18 manner but rather that it was one month to 1.5 months before your second

19 interview, which is what you stated during the interview. I'm talking

20 about the second interview with the Prosecution.

21 A. Yes, I understood that you asked me whether I had spoken to the

22 Defence of Mr. Obrenovic.

23 Q. Just to make it clear, when was this, before or after your second

24 interview with the Prosecution?

25 A. I think it was before the second interview, but one should look

Page 10643

1 at the documents and the dates. I can't remember the dates. There must

2 be a record somewhere which we can look at?

3 Q. There is indeed a record. I'm just asking you if you recall.

4 And my second question is: Do you recall that when you were initially

5 asked --

6 A. No, I don't.

7 MR. BOURGON: If we can have on the e-court, please, the second

8 interview, which is document 3D116, and I would like to have B/C/S

9 page 53 and English page 29. Side by side, if that is possible. In the

10 English side, I refer the Trial Chamber to lines 23 and 24, where it

11 states -- the question was asked to Mr. Galic -- the question was ...

12 Q. Do you have it before you, Mr. Galic, on the right side, where

13 you have the question which was put to you -- the question was at line

14 23 -- I'm sorry, for the English version, it's page 29 and not 30.

15 JUDGE KWON: We have it in English, and let's make sure that the

16 witness has the B/C/S. I'm not quite sure whether he has it.


18 Q. Can you see the question which was asked of you:

19 "Have you spoken to any of the lawyers of the men detained in The

20 Hague for the Srebrenica execution?"

21 And your answer was:

22 "No, although there are quite a few things that remain unclear to

23 me."

24 Can you see this in your language, Mr. Galic?

25 A. [No verbal response].

Page 10644

1 Q. We'll move on to a different topic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it was on the screen in the -- I have

3 been trying using as a beacon the word "security." Yeah, okay, where I

4 take it he can -- he can see it now, I suppose.

5 Yeah. Now, it's -- you leave it where it is, it's one, two,

6 three, four, five. The fifth paragraph from the top of the screen. The

7 interpreter, [B/C/S spoken], et cetera.

8 Can you see it now, Mr. Galic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 MR. BOURGON: If we can move to the next page, in the English

11 also.

12 Q. Now, in this document, Mr. Galic, it says here whether you had --

13 the lawyers of Lieutenant-Colonel Obrenovic, "and they insisted on having

14 a discussion with me and they spoke with me."

15 And the question was:

16 "When was this?"

17 "I don't know the exact date, but it was a month or a month and a

18 half ago."

19 JUDGE KWON: It should be the previous page in B/C/S. It's here.

20 Oh, thank you, yes.


22 Q. At the top part, Mr. Galic, where it says -- or I can see it

23 says:

24 "I don't know the exact date. It was a month or a month and a

25 half ago, and they insisted."

Page 10645

1 Now, how did they insist in meeting you?

2 A. They asked, as I said, that -- they talked to me, since I was an

3 officer in the brigade command, and they wanted to talk to me in

4 connection with the defence of Mr. Obrenovic.

5 MR. BOURGON: Thank you. We'll move on to the last part of my

6 cross-examination and, Mr. President, I would like to go into closed

7 session, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Private or closed? Private? Let's go into private

9 session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10646

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open.

21 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, we are now in open session.


24 Q. Mr. Galic, I just mentioned to you five names, and according to

25 these people you were not at the forward command post when they were

Page 10647

1 there. More specifically, according to one of them, Drago Nikolic was

2 there at the forward command post all day on the 13th and until the 14th

3 of July in the morning.

4 My question is: Does that help you remember the events as they

5 unfolded in July of 1995?

6 A. No.

7 MR. BOURGON: I'll move to my next question, and I need to go

8 back into private session.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go back to private session for a short

10 while.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]


22 Q. Mr. Galic, according to this person, you actually had a meeting

23 with this person to discuss what he had said concerning the presence of

24 Drago Nikolic at the forward command post on the 13th and 14th. Do you

25 recall having this conversation with (redacted)

Page 10648

1 A. I never discussed that question or other matters with him.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: First you ask us to go into private session so that

3 you keep his name, and then you mention his name yourself, so let's

4 redact.

5 MR. BOURGON: My mistake, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay, it happens, but we waste time like

7 that. So in -- on page 13, line 3, please, delete the name of the

8 individual, and you don't need to delete anything else. Okay.

9 MR. BOURGON: If we can go back into private session,

10 Mr. President, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go back to private session for a short

12 while, please.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10649

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

6 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Galic, I mentioned the name of an individual, and

8 according to this person, Drago Nikolic was picked up from the forward

9 command post in the morning of 14 July in order to go to the Zvornik

10 Brigade command. And according to this person, that person himself

11 returned to the forward command post later that day.

12 My question is: Does that help you remember the events of July

13 1995 as they unfolded?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And my last question: During your testimony, reference was made

16 to the fact that we met before, "we" being representatives or those

17 representing Drago Nikolic. Can you confirm that this meeting took place

18 in November of 2005?

19 A. The meeting, yes, but I do not remember the exact date.

20 Q. And would I be right in saying that nothing much was discussed at

21 that meeting because it was only a preliminary meeting; do you recall

22 this?

23 A. We talked about a series of questions, you and your associates.

24 There -- I don't have any written record of that conversation or

25 interview, so I really don't know. I know that you were there, I know

Page 10650

1 that we did discuss certain matters. I don't remember the exact date.

2 That's all that I can say.

3 Q. And can you confirm that for reasons unknown to us, you refused

4 to meet us thereafter?

5 A. I did not refuse, but the lady who contacted me, I told her that

6 I was travelling that day with my family to my wife's birthplace. I

7 don't know if you remember that, but I do remember it. I would have

8 talked at any other time that I was free with anyone.

9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Mr. Galic. I have no further

10 questions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

12 So now, Mr. Meek, yesterday you confirmed that you had no

13 cross-examination. Is that -- is that still your position?

14 MR. MEEK: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

16 Mr. Lazarevic.

17 MR. LAZEROVIC: We have no cross-examination for the witness, as

18 we indicated earlier.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?

20 MR. HAYNES: I can confirm that, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

22 So it's just you, Mr. Petrusic. Go ahead.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:

24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Galic, I only have a few

25 questions. I represent the Defence of General Miletic.

Page 10651

1 Q. I would like to ask you if in the course of your duties at the

2 Zvornik Brigade, you required the cooperation of the Main Staff?

3 A. I had no need for cooperation. I, myself, didn't need that,

4 because that would have been skipping over my two command levels in order

5 to contact them. I didn't even have the opportunity to do that. I would

6 have liked to go and meet the people there, but I did not.

7 Q. Your communication ended at the level of the Drina Corps; could

8 we put it like that?

9 A. Yes. I went up to the chief of the section for personnel

10 affairs. I don't remember the exact name of the person, but it had to do

11 with certain activities and tasks of that organ, if something was

12 unclear, but everything else was done within the brigade.

13 Q. The assistant commander for personnel affairs, for organisation,

14 mobilisation and personnel affairs in the Drina Corps was Colonel Jovicic

15 [Realtime transcript read in error "Jovetic"], does that ring a bell?

16 A. Colonel what?

17 Q. Colonel Jovicic.

18 A. He was on that duty first. After that, the post was occupied by

19 Lieutenant-Colonel. He went to that establishment post from the Bratunac

20 Brigade command, and he was the assistant commander for that section. At

21 the moment, I cannot recall his name, but we had a lot of contacts during

22 meetings, during briefings that we were invited to. I really cannot

23 remember his name. Before him, it was Lieutenant-Colonel Jovicic.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That means we need to correct line 21 in the

25 transcript, because we have Colonel Jovetic, and it should be

Page 10652

1 Colonel Jovicic, and the witness did mention his successor at least by

2 his surname, but it doesn't show up in the transcript.

3 Who succeeded Major Jovicic -- oh, not Major, Lieutenant Colonel

4 Jovicic? Who succeeded him?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recall the name.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. If he cannot recall the name, that's it.

7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. At this point, Witness, this is not so important, but I would

9 like to put it to you that in July 1995, the assistant commander for

10 organisation, mobilisation and personnel affairs in the Drina Corps was

11 Colonel Radenko Jovicic, but as I said, at this point in time perhaps

12 this is not so important.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak up?

14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I would just like you to confirm the level at which you

16 cooperated was the level of the Drina Corps?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Galic, on the 2nd of July, 1995, the command of the Drina

19 Corps issued an order that the Zvornik Brigade should allocate a brigade,

20 the equivalent of a battalion -- a unit, the equivalent of a battalion,

21 and send it to the Srebrenica region. Do you know anything about that?

22 A. I know about that order, but according to the order I was not

23 engaged or included in any activity pursuant to it.

24 Q. So you know about the order when it arrived at the command?

25 A. I don't know when it arrived, but I know about the order on the

Page 10653

1 basis of which later tasks were carried out.

2 Q. After the unit went into the field, into the Srebrenica region,

3 did you receive any kind of instructions from your command or the Chief

4 of Staff in order to replenish the unit of the Zvornik Brigade, since a

5 considerable, elite part of it was going to a different front?

6 A. No.

7 Q. If it was necessary to mobilise personnel to a limited extent to

8 replenish the ranks, who would issue such an order?

9 A. The brigade command asked for permission from the Drina Corps

10 command, and based on that approval and the order, the activity was

11 carried out in relation to mobilisation of the reserve battalion and

12 their further deployment.

13 Q. Would the same procedure apply in the case of a general

14 mobilisation in the Zvornik territory?

15 A. As for the general mobilisation, I really cannot recall the legal

16 provisions, but I think when we are talking about general mobilisation, a

17 completely different procedure is employed in a particular municipality

18 or in the entire republic.

19 Q. We know, from the roster of attendance of senior officers, that

20 you were absent on the 12th of July, the 12th, the 14th and the 15th of

21 July. Was there a need then to engage certain materiel and equipment,

22 and in that case, in the event of the absence of the commander, Colonel

23 Pandurevic, would Dragan Obrenovic then issue an order to you or to your

24 deputy to engage or provide this materiel and equipment?

25 A. Yes. If the commander was not there, then this task would be

Page 10654

1 carried out by his deputy, as regulated by establishment and other

2 regulations.

3 Q. We also know that on the 12th of July, there was a need to engage

4 a certain number of vehicles at the level of your brigade and also at the

5 level of the Zvornik Municipality. Did Dragan Obrenovic issue an order

6 to utilise these vehicles at the level of the brigade?

7 A. Yesterday, you could see that there is nothing mentioned anywhere

8 which would indicate that these activities proceeded in the organisation

9 and according to the order of the commander or the deputy of the Zvornik

10 Brigade. This was ordered by completely different institutions and

11 organs, so this does not apply to the Zvornik Brigade. Thus, the answer

12 to your question would be, no, there were no activities or any orders

13 undertaken by Mr. Obrenovic in that sense, referring to what you were

14 just asking.

15 Q. So in order to utilise buses on the 12th of July, the order was

16 issued by the Defence Ministry sector in Zvornik?

17 A. Please don't ask me about the documents I had in front of me

18 yesterday, because now I would need to look at them again in order to

19 confirm that. I confirmed yesterday that it was the -- a department of

20 the Defence Ministry, I don't remember how many sections were mentioned,

21 and this was also done by the Secretariat of the Defence Ministry. I'm

22 just speaking off the top of my head. I cannot recall the specific

23 information that I read out from the monitor yesterday.

24 Q. The Secretariat of the Defence Ministry is a civilian organ?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10655

1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

2 questions for this witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Petrusic.

4 Mr. Haynes.

5 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I don't have any further questions of this

6 witness, but I thought it was an appropriate moment to deal with a small

7 housekeeping matter before he faced re-examination.

8 You'll recall that yesterday I asked him to look at a hard copy

9 highlighted document, and after we had finished in court, we were in

10 discussion with the court management about how best to use that as an

11 exhibit, and it was decided that the best way to do it was to re-mark it

12 with asterisks so that they would show up on the screen and then put it

13 into e-court, and that is what we did.


15 MR. HAYNES: But the point is that in going through that process,

16 we discovered that we had miscounted, and the figure I should have put to

17 him was 23 dead, 20 on the 16th, and I thought it appropriate to raise it

18 now lest he be cross -- or re-examined on the point that's our fault, not

19 his.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yesterday I recall we're talking of the document

21 which lists the dead in Baljkovica.

22 MR. HAYNES: That's the one, yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And in the transcript yesterday, we'll check it,

24 you will find three on the 15th --

25 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

Page 10656

1 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and 19 on the 16th?

2 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And you want to correct that?

4 MR. HAYNES: Three on the 15th; 20 on the 16th.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: 20 on the 16th, okay. Thank you.

6 Mr. McCloskey, I understand you have a re-examination?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and I believe it should be hopefully very

8 brief, but ...

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

10 Keep in mind the state of health of the witness.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

12 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Galic. On the last topic of the -- the list, I

14 won't spend much time on this, but the list of the -- the dead, if we

15 were to look and give credit to the men that died on -- in that area

16 during the 15th and 16th, would it be fair to include the areas not just

17 of Baljkovica but of Parlog, Mevici Brezik, Crni Vrh, Kijici and Snagovo?

18 A. People who were killed in that area in Baljkovica, Crni Vrh and

19 the immediate vicinity, yes, but Kijici are not in the area of the

20 Zvornik Municipality, I think that belongs to either Bratunac or Milici,

21 to either of those municipalities, I'm not sure, but it's not in the --

22 or it's not part of the Zvornik Municipality.

23 Q. Thanks for that correction. And are you aware of how many young

24 Serbian MUP soldiers died in that time period in that area?

25 A. No.

Page 10657

1 Q. And did the list that we saw of the dead include the missing?

2 A. No. The list of those killed that we looked at yesterday is just

3 the list of those killed. It's not a list including the missing or the

4 wounded, either likely or seriously wounded. It's just a list of those

5 killed.

6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. McCloskey, just the previous question of yours,

7 "young Serbian MUP soldiers," who do you refer to?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm referring to the special police brigade

9 battalion that were there, the members of the CSB Zvorniks that were

10 there. I -- it's something I have not looked into fully, but I know they

11 were there and they were fighting.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Kwon.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could go briefly back to the

15 duty officer notebook, and that has been numbered -- for 13 July, it's

16 number 377, and it's on the B/C/S, it is 5743. It's page 125 of the

17 B/C/S and page 6 of the English.

18 Q. If you could take a look at the top of the page, I think we went

19 over this briefly, and I'll read out the English, and it will be coming

20 soon, but it says:

21 "The 5th Infantry Battalion. Combat readiness raised to the

22 highest level. Couriers have been dispatched in order to mobilise all

23 men and send them to their units."

24 Do you get involved in the mobilisation at that level or is that

25 a different level from you?

Page 10658

1 A. This is not a mobilisation of new men. People would stay in the

2 unit for a specific period of time, seven days or fifteen days. They

3 would be at the positions, and then after that they would spend a certain

4 period of time at home, resting. So some people were at the position,

5 some were at home, resting. So probably the commander of the

6 5th Battalion sent his courier to bring all the people who were resting

7 back to the unit. So this is not a mobilisation of new personnel. The

8 commands would work for themselves in accordance with a

9 previously-established order or according to previously-issued orders.

10 Q. All right, thank you. And can we go to a Defence exhibit, 7D99.

11 This is a 14 July 1995 document, and could you just read it briefly again

12 so we see the gist -- or we see what it's about, just the part that stops

13 with "Za," just the three lines?

14 A. "In order to secure the medical centre, Zvornik, carry out

15 mobilisation of seven conscripts, the mobilisation is to be carried out

16 immediately. Chief of the personnel affairs sector, Mihajlo Galic."

17 Q. Now, can we go to the -- the stamp and signature? Again, I think

18 you've dealt with this, but I wanted to -- I wanted to get a little more

19 detail on you. We see the stamp, and it's covering up some -- some

20 letters. Can you tell us what those letters are? It looks like a "PNN"

21 and an "S" with a -- or "Sh."

22 A. "Sh."

23 Q. What does that mean?

24 A. It's a stamp of the military post.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the number.

Page 10659

1 A. And then there is the typed signature, chief of the sector for

2 personnel and replenishment, Major Mihajlo Galic, so this was not

3 actually signed by me but somebody -- but by somebody else in my name.

4 Q. Okay. Can you -- what does, and this will sound funny in the

5 translation, but what does "Za PPP" mean?

6 A. The "P" stands for Pomocnik [phoen] "assist deputy," for deputy.

7 Because at that -- actually, I was not there that day.

8 Q. So sometimes when an officer is not there, his subordinates can

9 sign for him by putting "Za" and then his name, like in this case?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So on the 14th of July, just tell us again where you were when

12 your subordinates were doing this business?

13 A. I was on duty at the forward command post.

14 Q. Okay. I'm just going to spend a little bit of time on this topic

15 to try to see if we can clarify some of this. Is it a serious thing when

16 you're told to go to the forward command post to take an unscheduled

17 duty?

18 A. Each assignment that I carried out, including serious tasks, I

19 took them very seriously. I did not distinguish between easier or more

20 difficult tasks, but approached each one with the same amount of

21 seriousness.

22 Q. Would you be in serious trouble if you refused to follow that

23 order to go to the IKM that night?

24 A. Indeed, I would be in serious trouble, and I would probably be

25 called to task and -- for failure to observe discipline by the superior

Page 10660

1 commander.

2 Q. If you'd gone to that post that night and left your post

3 unauthorisedly, would you also be in serious trouble?

4 A. If I didn't receive an appropriate order and I do that on my own

5 accord, yes, I would be in very serious trouble and I would have to be

6 held responsible.

7 Q. Is it ever appropriate to take the IKM logbook away from the

8 IKM?

9 A. I don't quite understand. Take it where? Could you clarify,

10 please.

11 Q. We don't know, but take it away from the IKM back somewhere away

12 from the IKM on the, let's say, the 14th and 15th of July, in the middle

13 of very tense hostilities?

14 A. That logbook could not be removed from that location because it

15 couldn't even be taken to the observation tower. It was always at the

16 forward command post.

17 Q. Is that a book that the, for example, the commander or the deputy

18 commander needs to rely on when he shows up there to determine what might

19 have happened during the days that preceded him?

20 A. If there are certain entries which are important, it is up to the

21 commander and the Chief of Staff to judge and to see what is of interest

22 to them, what they wish to use and what they need for their work. So I

23 don't know quite how to answer. Whatever he needs, he looks for and he

24 familiarises himself with those entries.

25 Q. Would it be a serious offence to put false entries in that book?

Page 10661

1 A. I think that will be absolutely inappropriate, and it wouldn't

2 serve anyone's interests. I don't see why anyone would put down

3 something that was not true, something that he hadn't seen or experienced

4 at that point in time at that location. I don't see why anyone would do

5 that, myself or anyone else.

6 Q. Can you imagine Drago Nikolic putting up for one minute a false

7 entry putting him at a place or giving him a duty that was not true?

8 A. Knowing Drago Nikolic as a highly-professional soldier and a

9 responsible individual, I don't think he would ever put down something

10 that wasn't true and that isn't a true and real fact.

11 Q. Would he let you get away with doing that, either, especially if

12 it involved him?

13 A. Absolutely not, in view of the opinion I have of him and I have

14 already said, that he was a real professional and he wouldn't get -- let

15 anyone get away with such a thing, not just me but anyone else, to put

16 down an untruth in a document that has some lasting value.

17 Q. Let me go to just a couple of documents on a topic that

18 Mr. Petrusic had asked you about. The first one is a Drina Corps

19 document; that is, 65 ter 871 that I just had in front of me. And if we

20 could bring that up in both languages. But I will start -- well, there

21 you can make out that small print. If we could get the -- the English,

22 but I'll start to read a bit of the English while we're waiting.

23 This is something on the date of 12 July from the command of the

24 Drina Corps, from Commander Zivanovic on the 12th called "The Provision

25 of Buses for Evacuation From Srebrenica Enclave," and it's an order to

Page 10662

1 the Zvornik Brigade, among others. And you can take a look at it, but

2 it -- it basically is asking for available buses and to be sent -- to

3 procure them and to send them to Bratunac.

4 Now, I think from the roster, you may not have been there on the

5 12th, but do you remember this -- this order coming in from the -- from

6 the Corps?

7 A. No, nor do I remember, nor did I ever see this order.

8 Q. All right. If we could go to another one. It's the Zvornik

9 Brigade document related to this, 12 July, 65 ter number 322, and if we

10 could put both the B/C/S and the English on the -- on this. There's the

11 B/C/S. If you could try to make out as best you can on that?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not very clear, Mr. McCloskey. I think

13 instead of having a split scene -- split screen, why don't we concentrate

14 on the Serbo-Croat one, and we can follow from our screens then the

15 English version. It's still not very clear, and for someone who knows

16 the language, it could be understandable, but --

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. We'll do that.

18 Q. Take your time and take a look at this. And when the English

19 comes up on my screen, I'll ...

20 Okay. This is a -- as you can see, it's a regular combat report

21 to the Drina Corps from the Zvornik Brigade, which you talked about those

22 reports a bit, and there's a note in it that says, in that second

23 paragraph:

24 "We sent to Bratunac, pursuant to your order, eight buses from

25 Drinatrans, two buses from the military post and four of our trucks."

Page 10663

1 Did you or your office get involved in that mobilisation?

2 A. No, we didn't. I wasn't in the office that day, nor in command.

3 I had a day off. I was at home.

4 Q. You've talked quite a bit about the mobilisation process, but

5 there's a process by which when the army needs something in an emergency

6 or a combat situation, that they can get it; isn't that right?

7 A. That is right, in accordance with the procedure that I described

8 yesterday. That is stipulated by law.

9 Q. Those buses that sent -- were sent to Bratunac, those didn't go

10 through your office, those were procured in some manner, I take it?

11 A. Not through the department I worked in or the command of the

12 Zvornik Brigade. None of that went through those institutions.

13 Q. Can we see the signature line on the bottom of this report?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think he can see it on the screen as it is

15 now.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, we need to switch to the next page.

17 Q. And that's under the name of Commander Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko

18 Pandurevic, and as you saw from paragraph 2, it said "we sent." So it's

19 pretty clear the Zvornik Brigade had some involvement in -- in following

20 the Drina Corps order that we had seen before; isn't that right?

21 A. I don't know whether you are right. I know that there was no

22 participation. Now, whether someone ordered someone else to send so many

23 buses, I don't know. As for the signature here, I don't see how anyone

24 could have signed this when this man, the signatory, was not in Zvornik,

25 according to the best of my recollection at the time. It's not logical

Page 10664

1 to me.

2 Q. If you would have received an order from Vinko Pandurevic from

3 Zepa, would you have followed it?

4 A. If I had received an order, Vinko Pandurevic had his deputy at

5 the time who would stand in for him, and it would be logical for him to

6 relay that order to me, and I would act upon it. I would have to do that

7 because he was my superior officer. So I would have to carry out all

8 assignments given to me by my superior, the Chief of Staff, or the

9 commander. I would do it unless it was something that is prohibited by

10 law.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, those two letters in front of the

12 name "Vinko Pandurevic," what are they, "MOMD"? What do they represent?

13 I mean, the witness can perhaps help us.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.

15 Q. Witness, can you help the Court? We see the word "Commander,"

16 and then --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Lieutenant-Colonel.


19 Q. -- "Lieutenant-Colonel." Can you tell us what the next Cyrillic

20 letters mean? We also see "Vinko Pandurevic," but can you tell us what

21 the two letters before that are for us --

22 A. In front of in the first and last name?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. It is a title which Mr. Pandurevic had. He was a Master of

25 Sociology, sociological sciences, MA.

Page 10665

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It was there, and I didn't know whether it was some

2 kind of another "Za," someone standing in for him, so I needed to make

3 that clear.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey, and thank you, witness.


7 Q. If you got an order directly from Vinko Pandurevic from Zepa over

8 the phone, would you have followed it?

9 A. I would follow the order if the order was addressed to me and my

10 service.

11 Q. Why is that?

12 A. These are all assumptions, of course. If he failed to get in

13 touch with the Chief of Staff, who stands in for him, and if I was the

14 operations officer on duty, he could tell me to do such-and-such, give me

15 such an order.

16 However, in that period of time, Vinko Pandurevic did not issue

17 any orders to me, and all the activities that may have related to me

18 linked to the replenishment of units and things like that were not

19 addressed to me, and in that period of time I had no contact with him on

20 any issue.

21 Q. While he was away, was he still the commander of the Zvornik

22 Brigade?

23 A. If he's away, the corps command, I think that is their

24 responsibility, would in writing order that the brigade commander should

25 be represented by the Chief of Staff. I know this because there were

Page 10666

1 several occasions when the commander was absent, and there were some

2 orders that arrived and that reached me, others didn't, so the rule and

3 the procedure is as I have said.

4 Q. I understand that, but if Dragan Obrenovic is acting as deputy

5 commander of the brigade in the absence of his commander, is the

6 commander, Vinko Pandurevic, still in command of the Zvornik Brigade?

7 A. In actual fact, but that is my personal opinion, he's not the

8 commander, he is replaced by his deputy who has all the authorisations of

9 the commander, because if Mr. Pandurevic is engaged for a certain period

10 of time or if this applies to any other commander, and if he's away, tens

11 of kilometres away from the territory of Zvornik Municipality, it is only

12 logical that in that period of time he would be replaced by his deputy.

13 This also applies during leave, medical treatment, et cetera. As an

14 example, I can say that in the absence of the Chief of Staff, the

15 Deputy Chief of Staff replaces him on the basis of an appropriate order.

16 I don't know whether I have managed to answer your question.

17 Q. Well, I don't think we'll get in a debate about it, but I'll ask

18 you one more question on it. Do you think you could be getting confused

19 with the title of acting commander when the corps or the brigade

20 commander actually designates the deputy commander --

21 MR. HAYNES: I'm going to object. He's cross-examining his own

22 witness here. I think the question is asked and answered. He should ask

23 open questions to this man who he called as his own witness.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. McCloskey?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think Mr. Galic and I are having a perfectly

Page 10667

1 reasonable --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Exchange.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- exchange on a topic that was brought up. I

4 don't see any problem or any need to cross-examine him.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. McCloskey, but, please, you're very

6 near the borderline, according to us, very near the borderline. As long

7 as you seek a clarification from the witness, okay, go ahead, proceed,

8 but please don't try to go beyond that.


10 Q. Can you distinguish, in military terms -- have you been trained

11 on the difference between the deputy commander and the acting commander

12 in the absence of a commander?

13 A. No, not fully. What I am saying, I'm saying on the basis of my

14 own personal experience.

15 Q. All right. Just another question or two on emergency

16 mobilisations.

17 If a battalion command post was overrun by the enemy, would you

18 expect the Zvornik Brigade to have to go through some kind of a

19 mobilisation process to take over a house to replace the overrun command

20 post?

21 A. With one's own forces, the situation would be regulated along the

22 defence lines. It is quite logical that the command post will have to be

23 relocated to a place that is more suited for the work of the people in

24 the battalion command, so that they might successfully have control over

25 all activities taking place along the line or region of defence assigned

Page 10668

1 to that battalion.

2 Therefore, if you're referring to the 4th Battalion, as far as I

3 can remember, their command place was burned down and they were

4 relocated. I wasn't there in the field, I don't know, but later I learnt

5 that it was moved to another location, and it took time and resources for

6 it to be fortified so as to be suitable for use for what it was intended

7 to.

8 Q. Okay. But my question is, in particular: Before the commander

9 and his soldiers can go into that building and start using it as a

10 command post, do they have to go through some mobilisation process in the

11 middle of combat, or can they just go into that building and take it over

12 and start operations?

13 A. I don't understand. It's not a building. It can be a trench, a

14 bunker made from logs, planks, et cetera, and the command does it with

15 its own personnel without any kind of additional mobilisation. They do

16 that. They provide shelter for themselves, to be able to seek shelter

17 from any attack or climatic changes. They do that, themselves. Their

18 own unit does it. No one else does it for them.

19 If the need should arise for certain concrete or construction

20 elements, then that is something else. Then if it is a trench or a

21 container that can be secured, but it is adjusted to the needs of that

22 command.

23 Q. If the need should arise at the same time for a shelter to put in

24 prisoners, would the command, on its -- as you've described it, be able

25 to do that as well without going through some sort of mobilisation

Page 10669

1 process?

2 A. I would kindly ask you to clarify the question, because I'm not

3 sure I understood it.

4 Q. Well, if in a situation the Zvornik Brigade takes prisoners in

5 the field, can they take over a local house to put those prisoners in

6 without going through some mobilisation process?

7 A. In the field, whatever we used was mobilised. When the forward

8 command post was being relocated, there was no mobilisation. I'm not

9 aware of any kind of mobilisation, nor of any house being used, because

10 there weren't any such houses in that area, especially as in the

11 surroundings of the command post all the buildings had been destroyed and

12 burned.

13 Q. Do you know what building or facility was used to replace the

14 command post of the 4th Battalion after it was overrun?

15 A. The command post was not overrun, it was simply burned down, and

16 it was relocated. I went there much later. I think it was some sort of

17 a container, and then there were logs and trees used to build something.

18 I really don't remember the details.

19 Q. Do you recall the school at Orahovac being used temporarily after

20 the 4th Battalion command was burned down?

21 A. No, I don't know that, nor was that facility mobilised.

22 Q. Not by you?

23 A. No.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. Galic, thank you very much for your patience

25 and all your time.

Page 10670

1 I don't have any further questions, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you so much, Mr. McCloskey.

3 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

4 MR. BOURGON: Can we move into private session, Mr. President,

5 please?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: In the presence of the --

7 MR. BOURGON: Yes, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move into private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10671

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Galic, your testimony ends here. On behalf of

19 the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over to give

20 testimony and also wish you a safe journey back home.

21 Before you leave this courtroom, however, I enjoin the Victims

22 and Witnesses Unit to give the witness all the attention that he

23 requires, medical and otherwise. Make sure that he is comfortable,

24 pending his transfer to where he resides.

25 Okay, thank you.

Page 10672

1 And we'll have a break now of 25 minutes.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.

4 Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11:04 a.m.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Witness.

9 We will -- before you start giving evidence, we need to process

10 the filing of the tendering of documents from the previous witness. You

11 don't need to follow because it doesn't concern you.

12 Yes, Mr. --

13 MR. HAYNES: I'm in your hands as to whether we do that now, but

14 I was just in discussion with your clerk, and I was going to set out, in

15 a spreadsheet form, the documents I wish to tender, which I haven't done

16 yet, I confess, and I wondered whether --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We can postpone it.

18 MR. HAYNES: -- we can postpone it, and then it will be more

19 straightforward later.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. Thank you, Mr. Haynes.

21 Before the witness starts giving evidence, there's just a

22 formality that we need to address.

23 You will recall that on the 30th of March, 2007, the Prosecution

24 filed a confidential Prosecution motion for leave to amend witness list

25 by adding this witness as a 92 ter witness and for protective measures

Page 10673

1 filed -- and for protective measures. Basically, in it the Prosecution

2 sought the amendment of the 65 ter list to include this witness,

3 permission for his appearance, testimony and protective measures.

4 I wasn't here on the last session of the sitting of the 4th April, but

5 having checked the minutes of that sitting, the motion was not opposed by

6 the Defence, and it was granted orally by our colleague, Judge Kwon, in

7 the course of that sitting.

8 The only thing that remains to be done is that if you are

9 offering him as a 92 ter witness, you haven't specifically asked for that

10 as yet. So you asked for his inclusion in the 65 ter list, but the

11 question of whether he's been accepted as a 92 ter witness has still not

12 yet been decided.

13 Do I take it that there are no objections for having this witness

14 testify as a 92 ter witness from any of the Defence teams?

15 I hear no objections, so he can testify as a 92 ter witness. All

16 right.

17 Now, good morning once more to you, Witness, and on behalf of my

18 colleagues, Judge Kwon and Judge Prost and Judge Stole, in his absence, I

19 would like to welcome you.

20 You are about to start giving evidence. Before you do so, our

21 rules require that you make a solemn declaration that in the course of

22 your testimony you will be testifying the truth. So could I kindly ask

23 you to stand up, please, and read the text of the solemn declaration that

24 is being handed to you now, and that will be your solemn undertaking with

25 us.

Page 10674

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please take a seat.

5 The witness has a pseudonym and facial distortion.

6 MS. SOLJAN: Yes, Your Honours. If Madam Usher could just

7 provide assistance in providing the witness with what has been marked for

8 identification as P02775.

9 Examination by Ms. Soljan:

10 Q. Now, Witness, please take a look at this piece of paper, and then

11 tell us whether your name is on it, without actually saying your name out

12 loud.

13 A. Yes, that is my name.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see it. Can you show it to the Defence or

15 some of the Defence teams, anyone who wishes to see it.

16 I thank you. That will be entered in the records as an exhibit

17 and it will remain under seal. We'll give it a number later on.

18 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Soljan.

20 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you.

21 Q. Sir, do you recall providing a statement to the Office of the

22 Prosecutor on the 20th of April, as well as the 26th of April of this

23 year?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And was the statements at these times truthful?

Page 10675

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read your statement before you

3 came here today?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Did you have an opportunity to correct it prior to signing it?

6 A. I did have the opportunity to read it, and I abide by it.

7 Q. Are you satisfied that the statement that you read is true,

8 accurate and correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And if you were asked the same questions again, would your

11 answers be the same?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you, sir.

14 I will now read a short summary of the statement:

15 "The witness is a Bosnian Muslim. He has been a Ham radio

16 operator since 1986 and learned how to use various types of radio

17 communications equipment prior to his mobilisation into the Army of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 "In late 1992, he was drafted into the Anti-Electronic Warfare

20 Unit attached to the 215th Brigade of the BiH Army. In early 1995, he

21 was sent to work as an intercept operator at the northern facility, and

22 he stayed in this location until late 1995, when he was demobilised.

23 "The witness's work practice followed the established procedure

24 of scanning, recording and transcribing intercepts into notebooks.

25 Normal practice was to work in eight-hour shifts, followed by a longer

Page 10676

1 break. The soldiers present were divided into two alternating groups,

2 each of whom would be working in seven-day shift rotations.

3 "The witness recognised his handwriting when shown the intercept

4 dated 28 October 1995 at 11.20 hours at ERN 0078-5647 to 0078-5648, and

5 confirms that he transcribed this intercept."

6 This ends the summary of the statement, which, for the record, is

7 P02777.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.


10 Q. And, sir, I just have a follow-up question for you, and that is:

11 Have you had a chance to review the intercept in this original notebook?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And did you confirm at that time that it was your original

14 handwriting or your own handwriting?

15 A. Yes, it's my handwriting.

16 MS. SOLJAN: Thank you very much. I have no more questions.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Soljan.

18 On my list, unless it has been updated, I have got three Defence

19 teams that do not wish to cross-examine this witness, and that's the

20 Borovcanin, Gvero and Pandurevic teams. I would like confirmation of

21 that.

22 MR. JOSSE: Confirmed on behalf of General Gvero.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 MR. LAZEROVIC: Also on behalf of Borovcanin Defence.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes?

Page 10677

1 MR. HAYNES: Yes, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I have the Miletic Defence team will require

3 one hour, and then the Popovic, Beara and Nikolic Defence teams.

4 So I suggest you start, Madame Fauveau, unless there is an

5 arrangement that someone else will.

6 Mr. Zivanovic.

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

9 Q. Witness, good morning.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. I would like to ask you for some clarifications of the statement

12 you provided to the Prosecutor on the 20th of April, 2007. In that

13 statement, actually, the facility where you were, we refer to it as the

14 northern location, so for specific reasons we do not mention its name, so

15 when you are referring to the northern location, I would like you to know

16 that that refers to the facility where you were in the course of 1995.

17 Amongst other things, I saw in your statement that in February

18 1995, you attended a course which lasted 15 days, for seven to eight

19 hours each day. My question is if the course was organised for all

20 members of your unit or just for those who were selected from units and

21 then sent to attend the course?

22 A. The course was organised for members. Actually, I think all

23 members of my unit attended the course, as well as members of other units

24 who were performing the same duties within the 2nd Corps. I think that

25 they all -- or everyone was supposed to go through the course.

Page 10678

1 Q. During the 15 days that you attended the course, did you see

2 members of other units there and that was -- on the basis of that, you

3 concluded that they were attending the same course?

4 A. Well, to tell you the truth, it was a long time ago. I think

5 that there were members of other units there. The course was organised

6 at the level of the corps. I don't remember everyone who was there, but

7 I think that it was attended by members of other units.

8 Q. Thank you. Is it correct if I say that you received some basic

9 instructions at the course for intercepting communications, how to

10 operate the equipment, and which methodology to apply in the work?

11 A. Yes, we received some basic theoretical guidance that we lacked.

12 We received the basic training required for our work.

13 Q. Were you instructed at the time on how to work, how to organise

14 your work; in other words, that you needed to transcribe the

15 conversations into the notebook, how to do it, how to proceed from there,

16 and so on and so forth?

17 A. I and a considerable number of my colleagues had already been

18 doing that work for a couple of years, two or three years, from 1992

19 onwards, so that, in a sense, the operative things were something that we

20 were already familiar with. It was a course to cover this kind of thing

21 in a formal way. Honestly speaking, I cannot remember if the course

22 covered the extent of our work and other aspects.

23 Q. Can you please tell me, if you remember, if not at the course,

24 then if you can remember generally, who issued instructions for your

25 work? Who organised work at the location where you were, within your

Page 10679

1 unit?

2 A. There was a command structure. There were section commanders,

3 platoon commanders. There was a command of the division while I was at

4 that location, and then within the command there was an officer in charge

5 of organising this unit.

6 Q. Among other things, you said in your statement that the last

7 three months at the northern location, you primarily worked on data

8 processing, and you explained that the data processing comprised

9 gathering information from the three work stations that were operating,

10 then deciding which information was important, conveying or transferring

11 this information into the computer, and then drafting short summary

12 reports which were then forwarded to the command. Do you recall saying

13 that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I would like to ask you to explain what it means when you say

16 "gathering" or "compiling" the information from the three work stations?

17 A. The operators at the work stations decided, themselves, which

18 conversations were important and which were not. So they recorded a

19 number of conversations, and those they considered important were

20 transcribed, written down verbatim into the notebook.

21 What you are asking me about now is that actually I was often the

22 person who would take each of the notebooks and take from the notebooks

23 what, in my opinion, was the most important thing, then I would copy that

24 or and pass it on or send it to the command. What I mean to say is that

25 not everything that was recorded was not transcribed, and everything that

Page 10680

1 was written down in the notebooks was not sent to the command, only that

2 which we considered important.

3 Q. Very well. You also said that you decided which of the

4 information was important. You just said that. But you also just said

5 that the information was sent to the command, and I see that in the

6 statement, that it says that you typed them into the computer. So could

7 you please tell me if that means that you also sent the reports out or

8 you just typed them into the computer and then someone else sent them

9 off?

10 A. I typed them into the computer. Then I would copy that onto a

11 diskette, and I would give the diskette to the communication centre,

12 which was at the same facility but in the other part of the building,

13 there was a communication centre, and they would then send that to the

14 command. They used package radio or digital communication to -- to send

15 the reports out.

16 Q. So this part of the sentence, where you say that you sent summary

17 reports to the command, you actually mean that you typed that into the

18 computer and copied that onto a diskette?

19 A. On a daily basis, I would draft a report, copy it onto a

20 diskette, and then hand that to the communication centre, which would

21 then send that to the command.

22 Q. In the statement, you say that you sent off summary reports.

23 Does that mean that these were just brief reports containing the key

24 information that you felt was important?

25 A. No. I would literally copy into the report what was written in

Page 10681

1 the notebooks, but only those conversations that I felt were important.

2 I didn't analyse the conversations. I would type them exactly the way

3 they were written into the notebooks, but I would only do that with those

4 conversations that I felt were important.

5 Q. So can we conclude that your assertion that you sent summary

6 reports is not accurate?

7 A. Well, it depends what you mean, summary reports. "Summary" in

8 the sense that, I repeat, we did not send out everything that we had

9 written down. We only sent out things that we considered important.

10 Q. Reading this part of the statement that I put to you, I see that

11 you put those two things differently. You said that you decided which

12 information was important, that you typed that into the computer, and

13 then you sent out summary reports. Now you say that these summary

14 reports are the same as the selection of the information that would be

15 sent out. So it arises from your statement that these are two different

16 things. If you wish, I can show you the statement. We can look at it on

17 the monitor, if you would like to refresh your memory.

18 This is statement P2777 from the Prosecutor's list. It's

19 paragraph 7.

20 A. Yes, you can show that to me.

21 Q. Yes. You will see it on the screen in a moment.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not being broadcast? No, okay.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. It's paragraph 7?

25 A. Yes. Well, I abide by what I have said before. If I have used

Page 10682

1 the term "summary," it just means summary in the sense that not all the

2 conversations that were written in the notebooks were sent out, only

3 those that we selected.

4 Q. In other words, are you trying to say that the term "summary" was

5 used by mistake?

6 A. Perhaps a more appropriate term could have been used, but it

7 doesn't matter.

8 Q. Would you please look at the same statement, paragraph 11?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Please look at the last sentence. It reads:

11 "The one who was responsible to write a report would take the

12 most important facts and forward them to the command."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. My impression is that this again seems to point to a summary

15 report. Do you share my opinion?

16 A. No. As I have said, when we referred to what is important, we

17 mean the conversations that are important. When I said the one who was

18 responsible to write the report would take the most important facts, I

19 meant that he would choose the conversations that he considered to be

20 important. He would copy them and send them to the command.

21 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did you yourself decide which channels you

22 would listen in to, or did you get instructions from someone else?

23 A. In this period of time, when we're talking about this period and

24 this facility, we were aware of a certain number of directions and in

25 agreement with the command -- or, rather, pursuant to instructions from

Page 10683

1 the command we monitored certain directions. Since I mentioned "in

2 agreement with," I meant there was a certain system of subordination with

3 other units so as to avoid doubling the monitoring, so that more units

4 would not be monitoring the same directions.

5 Q. When you say that -- I don't know what word you actually used,

6 the agreement that you made with other units, does that mean that you

7 cooperated with them in that respect?

8 A. No, we didn't cooperate. This was resolved by our command, our

9 division command. There was an officer in charge of these affairs, and

10 he would receive orders from the chief of this branch in the corps

11 command.

12 Q. Are you personally aware of this?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You were present there?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did they tell you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did they tell only you or some other people as well?

19 A. I think other members of this unit knew this as well, but I can't

20 assert that for sure.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, your 20 minutes are soon up.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am finished. I just have a

23 few questions.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, go ahead.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 10684

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please try to conclude.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I will be finishing very quickly. I see that in this same

4 statement, I don't think I need to show it to you now, that you said that

5 you primarily monitored Banja Luka-Belgrade, the Brcko-Modrica and the

6 Bijeljina-Krivik [phoen]-Zvornik directions. Is that true?

7 A. No.

8 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Soljan.

10 MS. SOLJAN: I think it may make sense to actually point to the

11 actual paragraph where this is, because that citation wasn't entirely as

12 it is in the statement.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic. Thank you, Ms. Soljan.

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness look at

15 paragraph 13 of this statement, please? And then he can tell us what is

16 involved.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat your

18 question?

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I would like to ask you to look at paragraph 13 of your

21 statement, where it says that when you moved to this northern facility,

22 you primarily monitored communications Banja Luka-Belgrade, Brcko-Modrica

23 and Bijeljina-Zvornik?

24 A. In my statement, it says:

25 "Banja Luka-Modrica-Brcko-Bijeljina-Belgrade and

Page 10685

1 Bijeljina-Zvornik."

2 Q. Then we must have received another statement, I apologise, a

3 different one. Maybe the order has been changed. It is Banja

4 Luka-Modrica-Brcko-Bijeljina-Belgrade and Bijeljina-Zvornik?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. We had an earlier statement which was not signed, and I was

7 quoting from that one?

8 And just one more point, which will bring my cross-examination to

9 an end, or rather two.

10 In your statement, you said that among other things, you had to

11 note in the notebook the date, time and frequency at the beginning of

12 every conversation; is that right?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. And these were the instructions you received, I assume, again

15 from your command, that that is how you should work?

16 A. Yes, that was the instruction.

17 Q. And the last point I wish to ask you about has to do with the

18 notebooks. You said that the notebooks, when they were completed, would

19 be handed over to the commander. You said every notebook would be handed

20 to the commander when it was completed. So could you tell me, did you

21 then receive a new notebook?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you transcribe those conversations in a single notebook

24 until it was filled; do you remember that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10686

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

3 Madame Fauveau.

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] P2438B, could that document be

5 shown to the witness, and P2438A is the English version of this

6 transcribed intercepted conversation.

7 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

8 Q. Sir, the conversation that you see on the screen, "Saturday, the

9 28th of October, 1995," is that a conversation that you transcribed?

10 A. Yes. But you said "Sunday" and it says "Saturday" here.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about that, Madame Fauveau, because in

12 the transcript it is "Saturday."

13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You noted that the participants in this conversation were

15 General Milovanovic, Natsis [phoen], Panorama and "X." Could you tell us

16 who is designated as Natsis in this conversation?

17 A. The participants in this conversation are General Milovanovic and

18 "X." Natsis and Panorama are the intermediaries; that is, the telephone

19 exchange operators who were code named Natsis and Panorama. They

20 probably referred to certain units or the commands of certain units.

21 Q. And how did you determine that the two exchanges in question are

22 Natsis and Panorama?

23 A. The telephone operators at those exchanges frequently say those

24 names themselves, and probably at the time we knew that this channel was

25 a link between those two exchanges.

Page 10687

1 Q. Could you now look at the contents of this conversation. Is it

2 true that in line 5, the fifth line of this conversation,

3 General Milovanovic has asked for a colonel, and whose name you didn't

4 mention to catch -- manage to catch?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. And then as nobody answered, General Milovanovic asked for

7 somebody called Duboriva [phoen]?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And again nobody answered. Then General Milovanovic asked for a

10 third number, and that is 155?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when the person at Extension 155 answered, Milovanovic said

13 to him --

14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we now roll on to the second

15 page, please.

16 Q. So General Milovanovic said to the person who answered at

17 Extension 155 that he needed Miletic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you were listening in to this conversation, you were not

20 able to determine whether General Milovanovic was looking for Miletic,

21 Dubovina or number 155?

22 A. Could you please clarify your question a little bit?

23 Q. When you were intercepting this conversation, you were not able

24 to understand whether General Milovanovic was looking for Miletic at the

25 colonel's number that he asked for first; at Dubovina's number, the

Page 10688

1 second person he asked for; or at extension number 155?

2 A. I didn't understand that.

3 Q. In any event, when he obtained somebody at extension 155, he

4 didn't ask to speak to General Miletic at that point, did he?

5 A. I noted down what I heard in that notebook.

6 Q. And what you transcribed, nowhere do we see that he asked for

7 General Miletic at number 155?

8 A. If that is your understanding.

9 Q. Did you write down anywhere that General Miletic was looked for

10 at extension number 155?

11 A. I wrote down what I heard in the notebook.

12 Q. Is it true that the person who answered at number 155 did not

13 introduce himself?

14 A. If he had introduced himself, I would have noted it down.

15 Q. And reading this conversation, one can conclude that

16 General Milovanovic was not surprised to hear this person at

17 extension 155?

18 A. Probably.

19 Q. And that person certainly wasn't General Miletic?

20 A. I wrote down what I heard.

21 Q. And what you heard was, in fact, that when no one answered at

22 155, General Milovanovic said, "I needed General Miletic"; is that

23 right?

24 A. I wrote down: "I needed Miletic," without the rank of general

25 being indicated.

Page 10689

1 Q. Yes, you are quite right. You mentioned an authorisation in the

2 first line of this page. You were not able to hear what kind of

3 authorisation or permission was being referred to?

4 A. I am repeating again that what I heard, I noted down.

5 Q. And you did not specify what kind of authorisation was involved?

6 A. If I had heard that, I would have written it down.

7 Q. You recorded this conversation on the 28th of October, 1995. Did

8 you know that the person working with you on another work station, I

9 think it was Work Station 2, on the 28th of October, 1995, was not able

10 to register any conversations, as there was no signal?

11 A. Just now at this point in time, I don't know anything about that,

12 because this was 12 years ago.

13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 5D287?

14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Can I interrupt you a minute while

15 we have this intercept in front of us?

16 Witness, the fifth line, you read -- could you read the fifth

17 line from the top?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean on the second page?


20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The fifth line, "X" says: "You

21 have it at Bandita's in Pijesuk."

22 JUDGE KWON: Do you by any chance remember what "Bandita" means?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember, nor can I say

24 now. I assume it is a name, looking at the text. That is just my

25 opinion.

Page 10690

1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Fauveau.

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Your Honour.

3 Could we show the witness 5D298, please, and I would like this

4 exhibit not to be broadcast.

5 Q. Sir, do you recognise this notebook?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Is it not a notebook that belonged to your unit and that it was

8 used by Work Station 2?

9 A. Possibly, but I can no longer remember how that notebook looked.

10 Q. Can we now show page 2 of this notebook? Is it true that the

11 numbers you see, 610, 960, is an indication of the frequency that was

12 being monitored by this work station?

13 A. I think that it is the frequency range that work station was

14 listening into, I think. I think that the radio relay device, RRV 800,

15 operates within the frequency range of 610 to 960 megahertz.

16 Q. You are most probably right. My technical knowledge is not good

17 enough to describe exactly what it is. But in any case, these are

18 frequencies.

19 Could we now move on to page 116 of this document. Is it true

20 that the person working at this work station on the 28th of October,

21 1995, noted down that there was no signal?

22 A. Correct, but it is also correct that at that workplace those

23 frequencies were being monitored, and that at the workplace where I was,

24 another frequency was being monitored, and we did have a signal there.

25 Q. So you're telling us that the frequency, 861, on which the

Page 10691

1 General Milovanovic's conversation was intercepted, was not listened in

2 at Post 2, Work Station 2?

3 A. I said in the statement that there were three workplaces. At

4 each of those workplaces, different frequencies were being monitored.

5 Q. Is it not customary for the person who doesn't have a signal for

6 one reason or another on the frequency he usually monitors, moves on to

7 another frequency for which there is a signal?

8 A. Let us say that it was customary if the intensity of the

9 conversation is high, but there are technical limitations; and that is,

10 if an antenna was a fixed antenna at the other workplace and if the

11 intensity is not high, there's no point in climbing up to the roof and

12 turning the antenna around in another direction.

13 Q. Why [as interpreted] the person who is working at this workplace

14 did not indicate at which frequencies there were no signal?

15 A. He did indicate. You can see the frequencies here, if I can read

16 it properly, 820250 and 830720.

17 Q. Sir, would you please read exactly what is written down in

18 line 2, above the line indicating: "28th October 1995, Saturday, there

19 is no signal"?

20 A. If I am seeing it well, it says: "Signal at 820250, arrived at

21 1903 hours."

22 Q. And the next line, please?

23 A. Signal 837200 arrived in 1700 hours.

24 Q. And the next line?

25 A. "Signal 820250, Nesto at 1935," I think it says.

Page 10692

1 Q. Nesto, meaning disappeared.

2 A. And the next line: "Signals 820250 and 654000 emerged at 20

3 hours 55."

4 Q. Is it true, then, that in fact the notes, which can be found in

5 this notebook, indicating the frequencies, are the frequencies that

6 appear during the day, but nowhere is it stated that the other

7 frequencies could be monitored normally? So these were all frequencies

8 that didn't have a signal?

9 A. I don't know what your question is. I can just say that there

10 were three workplaces and that at each of those places different

11 frequencies were monitored, which means that at one place, one frequency

12 is intercepted; at the second, a second; and at the third, a third. If

13 at one workplace, at this workplace, the person operating said that there

14 were no signals, this doesn't mean that the radio relay communications

15 that were monitored at the other two workplaces could not be monitored.

16 Q. Are you telling me that the frequency 861 was not being monitored

17 at Post 2?

18 A. I don't know now what the distribution of workplaces was.

19 Obviously, on that day it was being monitored at the workplace where the

20 note was made.

21 Q. And the distribution of frequencies, was that done on a daily

22 basis?

23 A. No. It depended on the conditions. Usually, those frequencies

24 of radio relay links were not changed very often, so that usually for a

25 couple of weeks, a couple of months, even for longer periods, the same

Page 10693

1 radio relay would be monitored at a specific workplace.

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown page 42 of

3 this exhibit, please.

4 Q. The frequency you see is 861, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown page 45,

7 please.

8 Q. And, again, at Workplace 2, 861 was being monitored?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] And page 46, please.

11 Q. And this time, again, we see the frequency 861 that was being

12 monitored?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it, therefore, possible that among the frequencies that had no

15 signal, the operator working on the 28th of October, 1995, that that

16 operator also covered frequency 861?

17 A. It was clearly stated which frequencies had no signal in the

18 other note.

19 Q. And you didn't try to scan, when you couldn't find a signal on a

20 certain frequency, to find a frequency where you can catch the signal?

21 A. I was saying it depended on the intensity of the traffic, so if

22 someone was free at a certain workplace because there was no signal on

23 one of those radio relay directions that he was monitoring, he may

24 monitor others if that was necessary, if the traffic was very intense.

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we go into

Page 10694

1 private session for a few questions?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 10695

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You said that you took diskettes to the communications unit for

4 them to write the reports. Did you have occasion to see the written

5 reports in a written form, in hard copy, on paper?

6 A. I did have occasion to see them a couple of times when I was at

7 the division command.

8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

9 Exhibit 5D169, and can the document not be broadcast, please.

10 Q. There is no need for you to read the intercept. I just wanted

11 you to look at the report to see what it looks like. Do you recognise

12 this report that was sent out by your unit?

13 A. I assume that that's the report.

14 Q. Did you have an opportunity to look at the square stamp on

15 reports during the war?

16 A. I probably did see it. I didn't pay much attention to it. It's

17 just a normal stamp indicating receipt.

18 Q. You said that you would take diskettes to the communication unit,

19 which would then pass on the reports. Is it also true that the unit sent

20 out reports for other units which happened to be at the northern

21 location?

22 A. I don't know that, but I can say that the communication centre

23 did not belong to the (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please move

Page 10696

1 into private session?

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

14 Exhibit 5D295, and I would like to request that the document not be

15 broadcast.

16 Q. I assume that you cannot recognise the cover or the first page of

17 this notebook. Can we look at page 2 of this document? Is this a

18 notebook belonging to the communication unit at the northern location?

19 A. I don't know that.

20 Q. But the name of the notebook is the logbook of delivered or sent

21 telegrams?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. Can we look at page 4 of this document? In this table, on line

24 4, your unit is mentioned. Please do not say the name of the unit out

25 loud.

Page 10697

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And since your unit is mentioned in that line and in some other

3 lines just the 2nd Corps is mentioned; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know if all telegrams that were sent and that were

6 received had to be recorded in a notebook?

7 A. I assume that. I would just like to say here, earlier I said

8 that this was the communications centre which was in another part of the

9 building, and as I said, the building or the facility was divided into

10 two parts. The communications centre was in another part of the

11 location, and I never entered that area. Therefore, we would deliver the

12 diskette to them at the door, and that was it. I was not able to see the

13 notebook or the way in which they worked.

14 Q. Isn't it correct that you had to sign once you handed the

15 diskette over to the person who worked at the centre?

16 A. I'm not sure about that. I assume that it is so.

17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness

18 page 14 of the notebook? The bottom of the page, please.

19 Q. The signature that we see at the bottom of the page, is that your

20 signature?

21 A. That is my signature.

22 Q. Is it true that each time you brought the diskette and when the

23 report was sent out, the report was recorded in the notebook, and you

24 signed as the person who provided the diskette?

25 A. As far as I know, that was so.

Page 10698

1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness please look at the

2 following page?

3 Q. Is this an example of a telegram that was sent and that we have

4 your signature next to it in the first three lines?

5 A. This is not an example of a telegram. This is an example of the

6 dispatch logbook.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not being broadcast; correct? Okay, thank

8 you.

9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

10 Q. That is correct, sir, it's an example of a list of telegrams that

11 was sent out and which also feature your signature before the signature

12 of the person that actually dispatched the telegram?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. Sir, you mentioned in the statement a security unit, and you said

15 that you did not cooperate with that unit at your level at the northern

16 location?

17 A. That is correct. The unit was also located in the part of the

18 building where the communication centre was, so I didn't go there. The

19 only people who had access to that part were the people who worked

20 there.

21 Q. Didn't you have the opportunity to dispatch to the security

22 centre intercepts that were taken by your unit?

23 A. All the intercepts that we wanted to send to our command, we

24 would place on the diskette and take it to the communication centre.

25 That was what we did.

Page 10699

1 Q. Were there instances that you would give the diskette to the

2 security service?

3 A. No. I would hand it over exclusively to members who worked at

4 the communication centre.

5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness

6 Exhibit 5D289?

7 Q. Sir, there's no need to read and analyse the intercept. All I

8 would like to know from you is if what you see in front of you is

9 something that was written by your unit and that underneath it says:

10 "Security Service, SB Tuzla"; do you know what that means?

11 A. Can I look at the heading on the page, please?

12 Q. Yes, of course. In order to help you, I'm going to put a direct

13 question to you. Do you recognise the document of the 2nd Corps unit

14 that was at the northern location?

15 A. I am not sure, according to the heading. I think it's not stated

16 in the -- in the heading. I think that this is not a document that was

17 drafted in our unit. But once again, I'm not sure.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not being broadcast. Okay, thank you.

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Sir, I didn't want to say that it was a document generated by

21 your unit, I'm just saying that it's a document of a 2nd Corps unit, but

22 the intercept that is written here was taken down by your unit, and it

23 reached the unit of the 2nd Corps through the Security Service unit?

24 A. I'm telling you again that we would hand over all the reports to

25 the radio operator at the communication centre. Perhaps he passed the

Page 10700

1 reports on to somebody else. I don't know that, and I don't know if my

2 command, the division command - and I assume that they did - conveyed the

3 reports to the corps command, so perhaps there were some connections at

4 the level of the command with the Security Service. What I do know is

5 that we did not have any contact with the people who were doing this kind

6 of work for the Security Service.

7 Q. Very well. But you also assumed that at a higher level

8 information was exchanged amongst different units that were conducting

9 the same work as you, that were transcribing intercepted conversations.

10 First they would intercept the conversations and then transcribe them?

11 A. That's probably how it was, for sure.

12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I have no further

13 questions.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I apologise. Mr. Meek.

17 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour. Your microphone is not on, but I

18 have no questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, it is on.

20 MR. MEEK: I don't have any questions, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Meek.

22 Ms. Nikolic.

23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this

24 witness. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically, that means we're finished with him.

Page 10701

1 Yes, we're finished with the cross-examinations, I mean. We haven't

2 finished with him.

3 Is there a re-examination, Ms. Soljan?

4 MS. SOLJAN: No, Your Honours, thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Kwon, Judge Prost?

6 Sir, witness, we're finished with you. You're lucky. You're

7 free to go. Our staff will assist you.

8 Before you leave this courtroom, however, on behalf of my

9 colleagues, Judge Kwon and Judge Prost and the Trial Chamber, I wish to

10 thank you for having come over to give testimony, and on behalf of

11 everyone I wish you a safe journey back home.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: There shouldn't be problems in finalising the

14 documents relating to this witness before I check whether we can also

15 finalise the ones related to the previous one.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Soljan, you had circulated earlier on -- I

18 still have it somewhere. Which documents would you like to tender with

19 this witness, please?

20 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour, on the sheet we handed over, it would

21 be P02777, the witness's statement, as well as P02438A and B, which is a

22 copy of the intercept, B/C/S and English.

23 JUDGE KWON: Were they not admitted earlier when Ms. Frease was

24 here.

25 MS. SOLJAN: I believe they were marked for identification by a

Page 10702

1 previous witness, but not actually admitted.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And they will remain so, because we have agreed

3 that they will be --

4 JUDGE KWON: There's no point to --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I don't -- I don't see the point, but we just

6 need to verify it to make sure that they were included, but I -- I would

7 imagine that they were.

8 Let's start with the summary sheet, the summary sheet. There is

9 no point in even putting any questions. That will be admitted and kept

10 under seal.

11 Now, there is the witness statement. You have the reference

12 number in both versions. Is there any objection on the part of any of

13 the Defence teams for the admission of this document?

14 We hear none, so that is admitted, and it has PO2 -- number

15 P02777.

16 And now we come to the intercepts, and I understand you were

17 trying -- you were about to address the Chamber, especially following

18 what Judge Kwon pointed out, Ms. Soljan.

19 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, I was just about to say that it had

20 previously gone -- or, in other words, it had been previously mentioned

21 and just marked for identification, but that's all.

22 JUDGE KWON: So they were tendered previously?

23 MS. SOLJAN: They were tendered, that's right.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So I don't think they need to be tendered again.

25 They remain marked for identification as they were before, for the same

Page 10703

1 purpose that we have marked for identification various intercepts, and we

2 can leave the matter there.

3 Does any one of the Defence teams wish to tender any documents in

4 relation to this witness.

5 Ms. Fauveau.

6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I would like

7 to tender 5D169, 5D289. These are two reports that were shown to the

8 witness. And also 287, which is the notebook, but only 107.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections, Ms. Soljan?

10 MS. SOLJAN: No, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Have they all -- we have translations for each one

12 of them?

13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Only 5D169 has been translated.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Hearing no objections, that document 5D169 is

15 admitted. The other one, 5D289, will remain marked for identification.

16 The same applies to page 107, from the notebook, that was shown to the

17 witness, which I think is 287. Is that correct? What is the number of

18 the notebook?

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think there's a mistake in the

20 translation. It is page 116.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, 116. And what is the identification

22 number of the notebook?

23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It is separately in the e-court

24 under number 5D281.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, thank you. That will also be admitted

Page 10704

1 and marked for identification, like all other intercepts. All right.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: My idea or our idea is to finalise also the

4 exhibits relating to the previous witness, Mr. Galic. We start with you,

5 Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I would offer 65 ter 329,

7 the Zvornik Brigade daily interim combat report. I believe it was

8 mentioned before, but I don't think it was offered into evidence, is my

9 note. And also 65 ter 347, which is the Zvornik Brigade IKM log.

10 I also had two documents on redirect which are numbers P00871,

11 which was the Drina Corps order about buses, and then P00322, the Zvornik

12 Brigade combat report of the same date, 12 July, about buses.

13 That's it from the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections?

15 So, these documents are all translated, Mr. McCloskey?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: The Zvornik Brigade IKM book, I'm not sure if the

17 whole thing is, but the relevant -- did we get the whole thing? Yeah, I

18 guess Mr. Bourgon signals me, Yes, it is, and they are then.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So, there being no objection, these

20 documents are admitted as exhibits.

21 Now, I understand the Nikolic Defence team has a number of

22 documents. The same applies to the Pandurevic Defence team.

23 We'll begin with you, Mr. Bourgon. You have distributed a list

24 already. Do you maintain that list?

25 MR. BOURGON: Yes, with a few modifications, Mr. President, and

Page 10705

1 so the first is the -- like I said, the first interview of the witness

2 with the Prosecution under 3D115, dated 21 September 2001; the second

3 interview dated 27 June 2002; as well as the handwritten, partly

4 illegible statement, which is 3D118. These three document -- dated 28

5 August 2003. These three documents, Mr. President, I would seek they be

6 admitted for impeachment purposes only.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stop there for a moment.

8 Any objection, Mr. McCloskey?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no objection to them going in for the

10 Court, but I don't see any reason that we need to limit it for

11 impeachment purposes only. This is not something that I think is

12 appropriate in this situation or system.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. Bourgon?

14 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, it's just my request because those

15 were used and they go to the credibility of this witness. There was one

16 main issue, and if it wasn't for the issue of credibility, they would not

17 be going in. And I simply believe that they will be of assistance to the

18 Trial Chamber in assessing the credibility of that witness. That's why

19 they should go in only for impeachment purposes, and nothing else.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

21 Is there any other Defence team that wishes to object?

22 There are none.

23 One moment, please.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We will be admitting these three documents, but

Page 10706

1 we'll tell you exactly whether it's for a limited purpose or whether

2 we'll be dealing with them differently. We'll let you know later.

3 Let's proceed with the others, please.

4 MR. BOURGON: Thank you. I move on to document number 4 on the

5 list, which was the Ministry of Defence order for mobilisation, 15 July

6 1995, under 3D119.

7 I move to number 6, which is a related document, the list of

8 military conscripts, also from the Ministry of Defence under 3D125, dated

9 17 July 1995. And I follow with the security instruction. This was a

10 document that was used by Mr. Haynes -- document number 5, the Mladic

11 [Realtime transcript read in error "Miletic"] instruction. That's a

12 document used by Mr. Haynes, and we provided and there is a translation

13 that goes along with that.

14 I now move to item 7 on my list, which is the Zvornik Brigade

15 operations duty officer notebook. Now, this is a Prosecution exhibit, as

16 I've mentioned, P377. All we want to have admitted is the part that we

17 used, and this was -- this will be under 3D131.


19 MR. BOURGON: And this is for the dates of 13th to 20 July 1995.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And the last one?

21 MR. BOURGON: And finally is the document, the IKM log number 8

22 that was tendered by the Prosecution, and then there is document number

23 9, the roster, the duty roster of the command of the Zvornik Infantry

24 Brigade. This is Prosecution document 1047. I don't know if we're going

25 to now use a "3D" number or if we -- this was a document that was

Page 10707

1 accompanying the first interview of the witness. And the same thing goes

2 for document number 10, which was a Zvornik Brigade structure which was

3 used during the first interview with the witness.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

5 I notice Ms. Fauveau standing.

6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] There's an error in the

7 transcript. Page 70, line 21 in the transcript is something referring to

8 Miletic, and I'm quite sure it's not that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's Mladic, not Miletic. Thank you, and that will

10 be corrected.

11 Any objection on the part of the Prosecution or any of the other

12 Defence teams?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Your Honour, and it doesn't matter to me what

14 numbers they get. These military documents, I don't think you're making

15 any distinguishing between whether they are Defence numbers or

16 Prosecution numbers. It doesn't really matter to the Prosecution.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I take it, Mr. Bourgon, that the only

18 one which is still not yet translated is number 6, 3D125. Correct?

19 MR. BOURGON: Correct, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. I'm being told that 1047 is

21 already admitted as a Prosecution document, Exhibit P311. And it was

22 admitted with Witness PW-101. So, I don't think it needs to be admitted

23 again or tendered again.

24 Mr. Bourgon.

25 MR. BOURGON: Well, if this is the case, because 101, we used

Page 10708

1 part of that document, but this -- this one is the list, was specifically

2 related to officers in the command and I'm not sure -- it might be a

3 longer exhibit that -- it might be part of the longer exhibit we used

4 then, but that's perfectly fine with me.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

6 Mr. --

7 MR. BOURGON: I would just like to draw your attention,

8 Mr. President, to an error in the transcript at page 69, line 14, where

9 it says that the first interview of the witness with the Prosecution was

10 3D185, and it's 3D115. And there is no number for the second interview,

11 which should read "3D116."

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. So all your documents

13 tendered are being admitted. Number 6, namely, 3D125, will be marked for

14 identification pending translation.

15 Now, Mr. Haynes, you also have circulated a list which also shows

16 which ones are still awaiting translation. Do you confirm it?

17 MR. HAYNES: I confirm that list. I confess I copied it to

18 Ms. Stewart, who's left court since the last break, so if Mr. McCloskey

19 could be provided with a quick copy of that, he might be able to glance

20 through it and we could short-circuit this.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. Do you have a hard copy of it,

22 Mr. McCloskey?

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President, but I don't remember having

24 any problems with any of the things he's talking about. But I'll take a

25 look.

Page 10709

1 MR. HAYNES: There are 15 documents. The first seven need to be

2 marked for translation. In summary, they are the five mobilisation

3 orders I showed the witness and the two entries from the duty officer's

4 notebook of the 11th of June and the 16th of September. There are, then,

5 a series of daily and interim combat reports which have Prosecution 65

6 ter numbers and have not, I'm informed, previously been admitted into

7 evidence. And the last two documents are the list of dead people

8 unmarked and marked.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

10 Mr. McCloskey.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: No objection.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. No objection from any other of the Defence

13 teams?

14 So they are all being tendered and admitted. The ones which are

15 still awaiting translation, however, will for the time being, be marked

16 for identification.

17 So we'll have a 25-minute break now. You have another witness, I

18 suppose, no?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: We've got two more, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You can choose which one.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon, Mr. McCloskey. In relation to

24 the three documents, 3D115, 116 and 118, that we told you that will be

25 coming back to you, we are coming back to you now. We all agree

Page 10710

1 unanimously that these three documents ought to be admitted by majority,

2 Judge Kwon dissenting. We have agreed that they would be admitted not

3 solely for impeachment purposes, but for the limited purpose of serving

4 us better when we come to evaluating the evidence of this witness.

5 Yes, you can explain it, Judge Kwon.

6 JUDGE KWON: My dissenting is to the limited purpose of the --

7 the admission for the limited purpose, which was not clear from the

8 transcript.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So next witness. I would like you to -- I would

10 like to invite you, actually, to realise that this witness will be

11 starting now and then he's got three and a half days when he is expected

12 to remain incommunicado, et cetera. But I am -- we are not interfering

13 in any manner, so you may proceed, if you wish to.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't mind if we just quit for the day. As you

15 say, the witness has to come back. I hadn't thought of that as an

16 option, but --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, I'm not in any way telling you that our

18 preference is that we don't start. I just want to make sure that you are

19 all aware of this. There were previous occasions when we decided to go

20 ahead and other occasions where, considering the limited time we had

21 available, decided to postpone the testimony. So it's up to you, Mr.

22 McCloskey. We don't know what the circumstances are. You are perhaps in

23 a better position to make an assessment.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: The witness is fine -- I think he's fine to go.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, then we'll bring him in.

Page 10711

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and I might be able to finish direct. I

2 shouldn't take too long.


4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one other -- in discussing -- could we go

5 into private session for one second?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. Let's go into private session, please.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10712

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no protective measures in place for this

9 witness, is there? Yes.

10 Good morning to you.

11 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, yes. Good afternoon to you, and

13 welcome to this Tribunal.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you start giving evidence, could you please

16 make the solemn declaration required by our rules that you will be

17 testifying the truth.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself

23 comfortable, take a seat. I'll explain a few things to you.

24 Mr. McCloskey will go first. There is no way we can finish with

25 your entire testimony today. We will need to continue it later, and that

Page 10713

1 will be on Tuesday, because Monday is a public holiday here.

2 Between now, when you finish your testimony today, and Tuesday,

3 when you resume, it's important that you do not communicate with anyone

4 on the subject matter of your testimony or let anyone communicate or

5 discuss with you the same subject matter. Is that clear?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, clear.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise, I can assure you that our staff will do

8 their utmost to make your stay here in the meantime as easy as possible.

9 Mr. McCloskey.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

12 Q. Good afternoon.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. Can you first tell us your full name?

15 A. Danko Gojkovic.

16 Q. And as I mentioned to you, we have a system in place here that

17 allows us to try to make your evidence a little shorter, and so I'll ask

18 you a few questions in that regard.

19 Have you had a chance to review the transcript of your interview

20 from 16 May 2006 with the Office of the Prosecutor?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that a correct version of your interview?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. If you were asked the same questions, would your answers be the

25 same?

Page 10714

1 A. Yes, they would.

2 Q. All right. And so I'll read a brief summary that I think we went

3 over before, and that will help us save some time:

4 "Mr. Gojkovic was born on the 7th of June, 1967, in Rogatica in

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina. He performed his mandatory military service in

6 1985 in the JNA in the communications section. He was mobilised in

7 April 1992 and worked as a signalsman in the command of the Rogatica

8 Brigade. In July 1995, Mr. Gojkovic was one of two teleprinter operators

9 in the Brigade communications section.

10 As a teleprinter operator, Mr. Gojkovic would receive various

11 documents and type them into the teleprinter and send them to the

12 appropriate location.

13 In his OTP interview of 16 May 2006, Mr. Gojkovic was shown

14 several documents and commented on whether or not he recognised his

15 initials or signature on various documents. Among the documents he was

16 shown was document ERN 0425-8580, a document which was dated 13 July 1995

17 and noted to have been from the IKM 65 ZMTP to the Commander of the

18 GSVRS. Mr. Gojkovic confirmed that he typed the document into the

19 teleprinter and sent it. He identified his handwriting at the bottom of

20 the page indicating the time, date and his signature.

21 Mr. Gojkovic stated that there was no teleprinter connection

22 between his office and the IKM in Borike. He said there was telephone

23 communication between his office and Borike. He also said that Borike

24 did not have a teleprinter so Borike IKM would not have sent any

25 documents via teleprinter directly from Borike.

Page 10715

1 Mr. Gojkovic stated that after he would type a message into the

2 teleprinter, the original message would be saved and sent to the

3 command."

4 Now, that's just meant to be a summary. Is that basically

5 correct, that summary?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, just a few questions I should have. I hope it's just a

8 few.

9 Do you recall being shown a bundle of original documents that

10 were the ones I referred to in my summary?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I just want to hand you that original -- that bundle just so you

13 can take a look at it, especially this first cardboard front on it.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, the -- this bundle contains

15 all the various numbers that we have noted in the -- in the list, which I

16 will get to a little bit later.

17 Q. And if you could just put the front -- or if you could put the

18 front one on this thing called the ELMO, so that everyone can see this --

19 this front word, this won't take long. And can you tell us -- well, ELMO

20 needs to -- to try to catch the word, so it needs to come up. There we

21 go.

22 Can you read that word, tell us what that word is on this little

23 cardboard thing that is in the front of this bundle?

24 A. It says "Atlantida" [phoen].

25 Q. Do you have any idea what this term, Atlantida, signifies or

Page 10716

1 means?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. Now, can you go to the -- in the bundle, I've marked one

4 of the originals with a little red sticky, and that is P00192. If we

5 could bring that up in both languages, and she'll put that on the -- on

6 the ELMO. And could we focus the ELMO down at the bottom of the page.

7 First of all, let me just ask you, do you remember the substance

8 of any of these documents where you've recognised your initials or

9 signature?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. Well, now let's look at this particular document,

12 especially the -- we see the typed text, but could you take a look at the

13 handwritten part? You can actually look at the original document, which

14 is just down to your right on this machine.

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Now, if we could blow up down at the

17 bottom.

18 Q. Can you just read for us that -- now, first of all, well, did you

19 write that handwritten material?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And so can you read what is said there?

22 A. The handwritten part?

23 Q. Yes, just the handwritten part.

24 A. Dispatched 1510 on the 13th of July, 1995, and my signature.

25 Q. All right. Now, can you just tell us, briefly, what you can --

Page 10717

1 what you did with this document? What does "dispatched" mean?

2 A. When it was brought to me, I printed it on the teleprinter and

3 then we sent it off. This was the time when I was told that it had been

4 sent.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness get closer to the microphone,

6 please.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: They want you a little closer to the microphone.

8 The interpreters are having a hard time hearing you.

9 Q. Can you just explain to us in a little more detail the process of

10 the -- the teleprinter, what this thing is and what it does when you type

11 on it? The teleprinter, that is.

12 A. It transmits the text on a tape, which will, through the

13 communication system, reach the corps or the addressee, whoever that is.

14 I simply type out or retype -- I don't know how to explain it.

15 Q. Okay, no problem. Does the teleprinter or something attached to

16 it encode the -- the document that you're typing into it?

17 A. Yes, there is a device that encoded it.

18 Q. Okay. By looking at the -- the print face of this -- of the

19 document, no longer your handwriting, can you tell what -- what kind of

20 machine made those letters?

21 A. An old typewriter, possibly.

22 Q. Do you have a typewriter in your office?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And you don't remember this document, in particular, as you've

25 stated, so do you remember how this document got to you, who gave it to

Page 10718

1 you?

2 A. Probably they brought it to me, but I can't remember that. That

3 was 10, 12 years ago.

4 Q. What would be just the normal process that you might get a

5 document like this? Like who would bring it to you?

6 A. Well, if I'm in the command, it would be given to me. If I'm

7 not, if I'm working on the teleprinter, then the messenger would bring it

8 to me, one of the soldiers who might be there would bring it.

9 Q. Okay. Now, if we look at this, there's -- there's no handwritten

10 signature for Milomir Savcic. Is that unusual, to get a document that

11 doesn't have a signature on it?

12 A. I can't remember.

13 Q. Just a couple more questions. Where was your teleprinter office

14 located, in particular; what town and what area, if it was in a town?

15 A. Close to the command.

16 THE INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon. We didn't hear that.


18 Q. Sorry, the -- the interpreter didn't quite hear you. You said it

19 was close to the command, so can you tell us where the command was?

20 A. The command was at the factory in Rogatica.

21 Q. Okay. And where was your office in relation to the command

22 building?

23 A. Some 50 to 70 metres away from the command.

24 Q. And how far away was the Borike IKM from the command in

25 Rogatica? Just roughly, if you know?

Page 10719

1 A. About 18 kilometres.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

3 I have no further questions, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Mr. McCloskey.

5 I have on my list several. Mr. Zivanovic?

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. I'm not cross-examining.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Does anyone wish to start now and finish possibly

8 today?

9 Shall we adjourn? I think it's wiser to adjourn and start the

10 cross-examinations next Tuesday.

11 Witness, we are going to let you go now. Make sure that you

12 enjoy the rest of the weekend, which is a festive weekend for the Dutch

13 here, and the weather is going to be also in your favour, and get ready

14 for Tuesday, when we start with the cross-examinations and hopefully

15 finish on that day.

16 Thank you, and have a nice long weekend, everyone. Thank you.

17 Was it anxiety to leave the courtroom or --

18 MR. BOURGON: No, it's to address the Court, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. I thought so.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, the Trial Chamber has just rendered

22 a decision concerning the -- the way in which three exhibits have been

23 admitted, and of course we are always grateful when the Trial Chamber

24 renders a decision. However, I must, for the sake of the record, state

25 that in normal circumstances maybe if there was -- if the statements were

Page 10720

1 different, I would probably seek leave from the Court simply to withdraw

2 those three statements that I wished to have admitted in evidence.

3 In this case, I do not, because there is nothing in those

4 statements that will hurt my client or any other of the co-accused, and

5 so I don't have any purpose in seeking to withdraw.

6 However, Mr. President, this is an issue that has been going on

7 for some time now. We've had a trial -- decision from the Trial Chamber

8 where statements were admitted at the request of the Prosecution, and we

9 have a request for certification that is pending. At some other time,

10 the Trial Chamber has -- there was the issue of whether we could --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not pending. We decided it. In relation to

12 Witness PW-104?

13 MR. BOURGON: Yes, that --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we have decided it.

15 MR. BOURGON: Then it's -- I apologise. But we also have a

16 request that --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. You need -- you need a long weekend.

18 MR. BOURGON: Oh, yeah, I definitely do. But at some points, the

19 debate is whether we can or not seek to have admitted in evidence partly

20 or redacted statements, and I think this issue is still not clear yet,

21 whether what is the position.

22 The position of the Defence, we already said since -- for some

23 time, we believe that what we ask for could be denied or accepted, and

24 then we can decide whether to withdraw. This, I believe, would be the

25 proper position. But in this case, I don't see no point in withdrawing

Page 10721

1 these statements. But I think it is an issue that is bound to come up

2 again and on which we should get some clarification, Mr. President, if

3 the Trial Chamber would deem to give us.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 Certainly, we acknowledge the point you made earlier on, that you

7 needed these for impeachment purposes. Of course, they are important for

8 your purposes. No question about -- no doubt about that. So --

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] ... if I may add, but I

11 don't think there is a need to go into any depth in this, there were

12 instances where the choice was to admit only parts, and there was

13 agreement, and we were satisfied that we could work ahead with those

14 parts only. There were instances where we considered that the parts

15 alone would not be sufficient for our purposes when we come to evaluating

16 the whole testimony of that witness. We -- we've had various instances,

17 and we've tried to adjust our decision according and depending on what we

18 felt was -- was necessary at the time for the grand purpose that we will

19 have later on and as we go along in evaluating the witness's testimony,

20 as well as others.

21 So -- so I bid you farewell --

22 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I bid you farewell and I wish you a nice, long

24 weekend. We will reconvene at Tuesday in the morning.

25 Next -- incidentally, because I had announced once that we were

Page 10722

1 trying -- making an effort to have the 11th May sitting brought forward

2 from the afternoon to the morning, we have succeeded in doing that. It

3 should appear already on the official court schedule, but I wanted to

4 bring that to your notice. Okay?

5 Thank you.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1:41 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of May,

8 2007, at 9.00 a.m.