Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10880

1 Thursday, 3 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody, and to you too, Madam

7 Registrar. Could you call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All the accused are here. From the Defence teams I

11 only notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon. I think that's all. Yes,

12 Mr. Sarapa is here, Mr. Petrusic is here. Forgive me sometimes but the

13 column is indeed an obstacle. And from the Prosecution I notice the

14 presence of Mr. Thayer. Good morning, Mr. Thayer and good morning to you,

15 Mr. Djuric. Yes.

16 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President, just two quick matters.

17 Mr. McCloskey had a doctor's appointment this morning that he thought

18 would permit him to be here. He can't. He'll hope to join us sometime

19 this morning.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We anticipated it, looking at him yesterday.

21 MR. THAYER: The second matter is with respect to the suggestion

22 that we made yesterday about having a witness testify today concerning

23 some documents, we have been in consultation with our friends. We have an

24 investigator ready to go. However, we could not come to an agreement to

25 permit him to proceed even with direct today, so as far as I understand

Page 10881

1 it, that possibility is off the table. We'll see how it goes this

2 morning, but I wanted to alert the Court to that development.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: In what sense we didn't come to agreement to permit

4 him to proceed even with direct today?

5 MR. THAYER: There was some -- as I understand it, there were

6 documents that were disclosed that had not previously been disclosed in

7 relation to this whole --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Stop.

9 MR. THAYER: -- this whole issue.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's enough. It makes it more understandable,

11 then. All right.

12 So good morning to you, Mr. Djuric, again, and welcome back.

13 Mr. Lazarevic will continue and finish and then we see what happens after

14 that. Mr. Lazarevic, good morning to you, please proceed.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour and good morning.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]

19 Q. Good morning, Witness.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. Can we continue? Are you ready?

22 A. We can.

23 Q. During yesterday's examination, I forgot to ask you just one

24 thing, and that was concerning that Defence Exhibit with insignia to mark

25 the rank of major that you got when you joined the police force. Can we

Page 10882

1 please look at that Defence Exhibit 4D98, page 1?

2 Thank you. Can you see it on the screen now?

3 A. Can we please show the upper part? This is it. In the right

4 column it's the last one at the bottom. Shall I mark it with my pen?

5 Q. Could you put a circle around it, mark today's date and your

6 initials?

7 A. [Marks]. Today's date?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you very much. I don't think we will need this exhibit any

11 longer. We will be moving to a completely different subject.

12 During your testimony yesterday, you said that you had been in

13 Potocari and that soldiers were arriving in the company of bus drivers.

14 Do you remember that part of your testimony?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, before I show you one video that I would like us to see

17 together, I would only ask you a couple of questions about the members of

18 your unit. On the uniforms they wore in Potocari during the time you were

19 there, did they have any insignia that could indicate to which unit they

20 belonged?

21 A. No, they had absolutely no markings on them except rifles, long

22 barrels that were uniform, standard, for everybody.

23 Q. You also said that while they were still in Jahorina, before they

24 set out, they received boots and belts in order to make them uniform.

25 Tell me, what kind of belts were they? Were they special, black?

Page 10883

1 A. They were not uniform. There were brown, lighter brown, et

2 cetera, nothing special.

3 Q. Can we now see this video, P2047, which we have seen already on a

4 number of occasions? And we will watch a clip that begins with 021302,

5 and lasts just one second.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Do you see here on the right of this photograph, two soldiers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. As we can all see on the left arm, there are some insignia or

11 markings. Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yesterday in the course of your testimony, we had occasion to see

14 the distinguishing signs of the brigade of the Special Police and we can

15 agree that this is not it?

16 A. No. Such things, such markings were never used in the Special

17 Police Brigade.

18 Q. And you told us that members of your unit had no special

19 distinguishing signs. Can we rule out the possibility that these men

20 belonged to your unit?

21 A. We can rule it out.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, could we please see Defence Exhibit 4D15? It's

23 in e-court. Thank you.

24 Mr. Djuric, this is an exhibit that has been discussed before this

25 Tribunal through a number of witnesses, and it is a list of war criminals

Page 10884

1 known to the command of the 1st Bratunac Brigade. In other words, a list

2 of people who were known to have committed crimes in the area of Bratunac

3 municipality, Srebrenica, Milici, Vlasenica and other places. You can see

4 the document before you.

5 Did you ever, while you were in Potocari and in the broader area

6 of Srebrenica during those days, did you ever see this list?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Can we now see the last page of this document? Thank you.

9 You see, what's important to me is to look at the date when this

10 document was drafted. It was the 12th of July 1995, in Bratunac. You've

11 already answered that you had had no occasion to see this list before. I

12 suppose that means it was never given to you to look at.

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Did perhaps somebody inform you while you were there about the

15 existence of that list in the possession of the Bratunac brigade, a list

16 of people believed to be war criminals?

17 A. Not that I remember.

18 Q. Thank you. Then I believe we will no longer need this document.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Djuric, I will now ask you to look at the screen again to see

22 another clip from the same video, P2047, from 02.30.37 until 02.30.50.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You see, I believe we just saw a structure that existed

Page 10885

1 in Potocari, and on the terrace of that structure, which is known here as

2 the "White House", we saw the people who I suppose were prisoners at the

3 time. Do you have any recollection of any structure where men that had

4 been separated in Potocari were held?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you have any idea where this structure that we saw on the video

7 is located?

8 A. No.

9 Q. According to the map and the photographs that we here have had the

10 opportunity to see, that structure should be just opposite the UN base in

11 Potocari, perhaps three or 400 metres away from the location that you

12 marked as your own location in Potocari. Did you ever go in that

13 direction?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because earlier on, when I put on the

16 record who is present and who is not, I forgot to mention that General

17 Miletic today is not present. We had given prior notice of that and had

18 authorised his absence. He has, for the record, also waived his right to

19 be present for today. Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Lazarevic.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. [Interpretation] In view of the replies you gave on the subject, I

22 suppose it is superfluous to ask you whether you saw a pile of documents

23 outside that house.

24 A. The only time I went anywhere was to the entrance of the base

25 after we had finished our job.

Page 10886

1 Q. In order to understand that answer correctly, that was on the

2 13th, when the evacuation was quite completed?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now I would like to ask you a hypothetical question, if you can

5 clarify a situation in the chain of command over police units. If, for

6 instance, in Potocari or in any other location where you and your unit

7 were deployed a police vehicle would arrive bringing uniformed police from

8 Bratunac or from Zvornik, it doesn't matter where, would you have any

9 command authority over those uniformed police?

10 A. No, unless they were directly affecting my job.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Djuric, there was a number of

12 testimonies heard by this Tribunal from different witnesses, and they

13 mentioned certain events and linked you or your name with these events,

14 and I think that it would be fair for me to put to you certain allegations

15 in that connection and to get your comments in relation to those events.

16 Did you ever introduce yourself as the commander of the Serb forces in

17 that region to any member of the Dutch forces?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you the commander of the Serb forces in that area?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever tell any of the members of the DutchBat that your

22 unit of the military police was connected with the Drina Wolves?

23 A. As far as I know, the Drina Wolves unit belongs to the army of

24 Republika Srpska. Therefore, no, I could not have said something like

25 that.

Page 10887

1 Q. I think so too, but to have it in the transcript, did your unit

2 have any connections whatsoever with the Drina Wolves?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you tell any of the members of the DutchBat that 200 buses

5 would come to Potocari and that they would be used to evacuate the people

6 from there?

7 A. I don't think that I did, because I didn't have any information

8 about the transport, how it would look, what it would be like, how large

9 it would be, so I assume that I could not have said anything like that.

10 Q. Thank you very much. That is what I assumed as well.

11 Do you recall an incident that was discussed that took place in

12 Potocari when a soldier allegedly wearing completely black overalls, tried

13 to pull out from the crowd of the refugees a young man by grabbing him by

14 the neck and pulling him? Do you happen to recall such an incident at all

15 on the 12th or the 13th?

16 A. You mean the civilians who were there under our security?

17 Q. Precisely.

18 A. I don't recall that.

19 Q. Perhaps it's superfluous in view of your testimony to ask you if

20 you told any of the members of the DutchBat that people in the "White

21 House" will not be requiring their passports?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you remember yesterday when we were looking at the video

24 footage where we can see that young man, Miki?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10888

1 Q. Was that young man one of the commanders in Potocari?

2 A. He could only have been a member of my unit, most probably. There

3 were no active police officers there except me.

4 Q. For the transcript, so he could not have been a commander of any

5 kind?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Let me ask you another thing relating to these previous

8 testimonies. Did you perhaps see, in Potocari, a group of Dutch soldiers

9 who were disarmed and being under the guard of Serbian forces in Potocari?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you very much. I think that this will clarify all of these

12 situations that were mentioned so far connected to you.

13 I would now like to again move to the night of the 13th to the

14 14th and the road where you said your unit was located, just to confirm

15 for the purposes of the transcript if that night, well, we already

16 discussed the first night. Did your unit that night have any contacts

17 with members of the 28th Division of the B and H army that was moving

18 around in the woods at the time attempting a break through?

19 A. I don't have any information about that and nobody informed me

20 about that. During the period when I was there, on those two occasions, I

21 think on those two occasions, nothing was happening.

22 Q. Thank you very much. During that night, you toured the members of

23 your unit and, as you said, you assume that you would have been informed

24 if something had happened in your absence?

25 A. I believe that I would have been, yes.

Page 10889

1 Q. You already talked about how your unit never physically linked up

2 with the other company from Jahorina and that there was a kind of clear

3 area between your and the other company and that in the woods above that

4 area, there were units of the army of Republika Srpska and you also told

5 us that you received this information from Nedjo Ikonic. Do you recall

6 that part of your testimony?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You further testified that you assumed that Nedjo Ikonic would

9 have told you had there been any members of the Special Police Brigade in

10 that area and that he knew those members, he would have recognised them,

11 do you recall him saying that?

12 A. [No interpretation]

13 Q. Excuse me. Your answer is not in the transcript. Can you please

14 repeat your answer?

15 A. Can you please repeat your question?

16 Q. The question was just reminding you that you said that Nedjo

17 Ikonic would have told you if he had seen any of the members of the

18 brigade because he knew them. So you assume he would have told you about

19 it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you very much. I would just like to clarify this entire

22 situation completely. You personally, now I'm talking about you as you

23 were doing your rounds on the night between the 13th and the 14th of July,

24 in that area between the members where your -- the members of your unit

25 were and the members of the other company were, did you see personally any

Page 10890

1 members of the Special Police Brigade of -- or of the PJP company from

2 Zvornik?

3 A. There were various movements along the road. There were vehicles,

4 people were moving around. I don't know if anyone was there or not. I

5 really don't remember that. But the traffic volume was quite high so I

6 don't know if somebody was in that area between the two units.

7 Q. In any case, you don't remember seeing anyone?

8 A. I don't recall anyone being deployed there.

9 Q. One more question about the night between the 13th and the 14th.

10 Your unit, during that night, did it capture any members of the B and H

11 army who had surrendered perhaps?

12 A. I don't recall that being the case, no.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Just some few last questions. If we can

14 look at a document on e-court, please, it's document P94.

15 If we can scroll the document down, please.

16 Can the witness just look at the heading of the document and the

17 date first, and then we can -- all right.

18 Mr. Djuric, this is a document of the Ministry of the Internal

19 Affairs of Republika Srpska from the minister's cabinet. The number is

20 64/95. And the date is the 10th of July, 1995. First I would like to ask

21 you if you had previously seen this document.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Regardless of the fact that you haven't seen the document before,

24 it relates to a certain extent also to your unit that was engaged in

25 Srebrenica, and I would like you to look at this order here, look at

Page 10891

1 paragraph 2, where it says that as part of the unit, the second Special

2 Police detachment from Sekovici, the first PJP company from Zvornik, the

3 mixed company of the joint MUP, RSK, Serbian Republika Srpska forces, and

4 the company from the training centre in Jahorina, will all be part of the

5 unit. Do you see that paragraph?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The first question that I would like to put to you about this is

8 the following: During your stay there in Potocari and on the road, did

9 you see any member of the Republika Srpska Krajina MUP, the Republic of

10 Serbia MUP, there?

11 A. No.

12 Q. One more question. If we look at the units comprising this or

13 making up this formation, it says that only one company from the Jahorina

14 training centre was part of this unit. Do you agree with me?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Therefore, it's evident that this is the company that you led, and

17 based on this, the 2nd Company that we talked about under the command of

18 Nedjo Nikolic [as interpreted] was not part of this mixed unit?

19 A. That's what it looks like.

20 Q. And we can then just note that in paragraph 5, it was ordered that

21 the commander of the unit, upon arrival at the destination should get in

22 touch with the chief of the staff of the corps, General Krstic. Do you

23 see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I assume that you don't have any information about Mr. Borovcanin

Page 10892

1 reporting to General Krstic or not?

2 A. I don't know anything about that.

3 Q. And just one more question at the end. You told us that everybody

4 knows you under the nickname Mane Djuric?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you ever encounter a situation that, in that area, in Zvornik,

7 there is another person with the name Mane Djuric, and who was the deputy

8 of the -- deputy chief of the Zvornik centre?

9 A. Yes. Mr. Mane Djuric, before he came to the Zvornik centre, was

10 chief at Vlasenica. That's where I met him, during one of the police

11 jobs, and since then we socialised and my name and my nickname and his

12 name and his last name actually brought us closer together in a way, and

13 of course, I know him, yes.

14 Q. Mr. Djuric, thank you very much. I have no further questions for

15 you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think Madam Fauveau? Thank you,

17 Mr. Lazarevic.

18 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

19 Q. Sir, you said that when you arrived in the Bratunac area, a local

20 policeman accompanied you to your quarters in the school building; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This policeman, did he belong to the Bratunac police?

24 A. I suppose so. I don't know. But he knew the terrain well, so I

25 suppose he did. I didn't ask him who he was or where he was from.

Page 10893

1 Q. At any rate, it was a civilian policeman, a man who belonged to

2 the civilian police force?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it correct that once your unit was accommodated in the primary

5 school, you were told that the civilian population will be assembled

6 somewhere near the UN base in Potocari?

7 A. I was told that there will be an assembly of Muslim civilians from

8 Srebrenica near the base in Potocari.

9 Q. Did Mr. Jevic tell you on the same occasion that the units of the

10 Republika Srpska army were not present in that location?

11 A. Mr. Jevic told me then that the units of the Republika Srpska army

12 had already passed through that area that was previously held by Muslim

13 forces, and he supposes, therefore, that the area is clear of Muslim

14 forces.

15 Q. When you arrived in Potocari on the 12th July, 1995, you didn't

16 find there any military units, did you?

17 A. I did not.

18 Q. And throughout that day, the 12th of July, no unit of the

19 Republika Srpska army had arrived to be stationed in Potocari?

20 A. None of them were stationed there, but on the road, one military

21 unit passed by, and individual vehicles as well, because it is a road,

22 after all.

23 Q. Is it correct that when you arrived at Potocari, you found a lot

24 of people there, a large group of the Muslim civilians population?

25 A. Yes. A large number of people. And that number increased as time

Page 10894

1 went by.

2 Q. Is it obvious -- was it obvious that these people could not stay

3 at Potocari?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In fact, a fast evacuation of these people was the only possible

6 solution, wasn't it?

7 A. From a humane point of view, that was the expectation.

8 Q. You said yesterday that was on page 17 of the transcript, you said

9 that you had not seen any abuse or mistreatment of the Muslim population

10 in Potocari. Is it correct that there were fears that Serb people who had

11 lost family members in the previous period might come and attack Muslim

12 civilians?

13 A. As I was talking to Jevic, he told me that in Bratunac a group of

14 Serb civilians had gathered and they wanted to go and take their revenge

15 on those people from Srebrenica, those civilians from Srebrenica, or

16 something like that, and he told me that if anyone should show up there, I

17 should prevent anything of the sort.

18 Q. On that occasion, did Mr. Jevic also tell you that it was the

19 civilian police of Bratunac that will attempt to hold off those Serb

20 civilians?

21 A. I don't think he went into such extensive explanations, but I

22 believe that it was indeed the civilian police that was keeping the public

23 law and order in Bratunac. It was their responsibility.

24 Q. Is it correct that food was distributed to the Muslim civilians in

25 Potocari?

Page 10895

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it also the case that water was distributed to Muslim civilians

3 at Potocari?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the 13th July, did you see in Potocari Mr. Dragan Kekic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And he was a member of the Republika Srpska commission for

8 refugees?

9 A. Yes. It's in fact the commission for refugees of Republika

10 Srpska.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you know what Mr. Kekic had come to do in Potocari?

12 A. I didn't really talk to him about his job, simply because we are

13 neighbours, we lived in the same building and we hadn't seen each other in

14 a while and we just said hello.

15 Q. Yesterday you mentioned the events in Kravica in January 1993.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it true that you were present when the Serb population of

18 Kravica had been expelled from their homes?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At that time, in January 1993, the Serb population wasn't

21 evacuated, they were simply driven out of their homes?

22 A. They ran for their lives.

23 Q. And in that winter, 1993, during that exodus of the Serb

24 population, those Serbs did not receive any assistance, nobody gave them

25 any food or water?

Page 10896

1 A. No military assistance arrived to help us, nor was there any aid

2 in food or water, and what was most needed were medical services, because

3 there was a large number of people wounded and injured, and they needed

4 help.

5 Q. And no transport was provided for that population?

6 A. No, it wasn't. Instead, those people who were strong enough and

7 who were able to, they carried the wounded, together with my soldiers.

8 Q. Can we say that in January, 1993, Serbs, including women, children

9 and the elderly, had to walk in the cold, in the winter, without any aid,

10 without any help?

11 A. Yes. The only way we could get out of Kravica was across a

12 mountain pass. In fact, I don't really understand why they didn't attack

13 us while we were crossing. It was the only way out. It was very, very

14 hard.

15 Q. You said yesterday that you had not seen, in Potocari, any Serb

16 civilians in civilian clothing. Can we say nevertheless that at that

17 time, in summer 1995, many civilians, many people who were neither in the

18 army nor in the police wore uniforms?

19 A. I cannot claim that with any certainty, but I know from experience

20 that a number of people wore uniforms when they needed it and when they

21 didn't need it. It was like a working outfit, a work outfit, the clothes

22 they wore to work in the field and do all sorts of work. Even after the

23 war, people continued to wear uniforms.

24 Q. Can we say that it was difficult, if not impossible, to

25 distinguish civilians from the military at that time in July 1995?

Page 10897

1 A. It's not an easy question to answer. Many people wore uniforms

2 but -- that's true, but there were also civilians around. Difficult to

3 say.

4 Q. I'll simplify. Can we say that when we see somebody in uniform we

5 cannot automatically conclude that the person is a member of armed forces?

6 A. It was a common occurrence that people who were not actively

7 involved in any units wore uniforms.

8 Q. Is it true that when you were in Potocari in July 1995, you had

9 not seen a single body, a single person killed?

10 A. I did not. I did not see a single corpse.

11 Q. And you didn't hear of any killings at Potocari?

12 A. I did not.

13 Q. Is it also true that when you came to Potocari on the 12th July in

14 the morning, you could see traces of combat around?

15 A. Yes. One of my soldiers told me, and showed me, on the slopes to

16 the left of the road, some burned houses and smoke coming out of them

17 still, and that led me to assume that there had been combat, skirmishes.

18 Q. Among the Muslim population in Potocari, you didn't see any men of

19 military age?

20 A. There were men, but I didn't check who was fit for the army and

21 who wasn't. I didn't look at them that way. They were all the same to

22 me.

23 Q. Isn't it true that the majority of those people were women,

24 children and the elderly?

25 A. It is.

Page 10898

1 Q. You said yesterday that right at the beginning, when the buses

2 arrived, the Muslims were frightened but later on it was difficult to hold

3 them back and to keep them under control.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it true that when the Muslims understood that these buses were

6 really going to evacuate them, they rushed towards them?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And not a single Muslim was forced on to a bus?

9 A. From what I was able to see from the spot I was standing, nobody

10 was forced on to a bus.

11 Q. And not a single Muslim person addressed you saying that they

12 didn't want to go?

13 A. No, nobody addressed me.

14 Q. And your task was to see to it that all the Muslims boarded the

15 buses with full security and in good order?

16 A. It was not my responsibility to ensure the boarding. It was my

17 responsibility to ensure security on that location. But I had nothing to

18 do with transport or the boarding.

19 Q. Thank you for that clarification.

20 Can we say that the members of the UN force worked together with

21 you on the same job?

22 A. Yes. We cooperated.

23 Q. And not a single member of the UN force told you to stop embarking

24 those people?

25 A. No.

Page 10899

1 Q. And while you worked at Potocari in July, 1995, you were under the

2 impression that you were doing a useful and necessary job?

3 A. I had the impression that I was doing an honourable, a very

4 honourable, job.

5 Q. And it was your impression that you were helping the Muslim

6 population?

7 A. Yes, by protecting them so that nobody could hurt them, so that

8 they would feel safe, yes.

9 Q. Did you have occasion in that period, between the 12th and the

10 14th of July, to pass through the town of Bratunac?

11 A. Yes. I passed through Bratunac on the 12th in the morning, and on

12 the 12th late in the afternoon, and during the night. On each trip, when

13 I went to Potocari, and when I returned from Potocari, I passed through

14 Bratunac. And when I went to deploy my men along the road I always passed

15 through Bratunac. Because that's the only road. I had no alternative.

16 Q. And as you were passing through Bratunac, did you see in the town

17 itself any bodies, any dead bodies?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Is it true that at a certain point, Mr. Jevic told you to contact

20 the police station of Bratunac if your unit should capture any prisoners?

21 A. We talked about it, in case anybody should surrender or be

22 captured during the night along the road, it is the procedure, the common

23 practice to turn them over to the police.

24 Q. When in July 1995 you were in the area of Bratunac, in Bratunac

25 town or in Potocari, did you have occasion to go to the Bratunac Brigade?

Page 10900

1 A. No.

2 Q. And when performing your task in July 1995, you had no contact

3 with the army of Republika Srpska in Bratunac or in Potocari?

4 A. No.

5 Q. But when you were in Potocari, you worked together with members of

6 the DutchBat?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau. Mr. Zivanovic?

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir.

13 A. Good day.

14 Q. Can you please tell me, during your stay in Potocari, did you see

15 if the refugees who were waiting to be evacuated received water?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were cisterns brought in?

18 A. Yes, smaller water trucks, I think, from what I can remember.

19 Q. We also heard that bread was distributed to them. Did you see

20 that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you please tell me another thing? We had the opportunity to

23 see some video footage where some soldiers, officers, I think even General

24 Mladic, was there or handing out chocolates and sweets to the children and

25 things like that. Did you have the opportunity to see that?

Page 10901

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I would now like to ask you this: We saw that this was filmed by

3 TV cameras. We heard also a statement that when these things were

4 distributed, chocolates, bread and such, when the cameras stopped rolling,

5 when they stopped filming, the soldiers then would take back from the

6 refugees this bread and these chocolates. Can you please tell me whether

7 something like that happened?

8 A. When Mr. Mladic came, I think the second time, because as far as I

9 can remember, he came to see the civilians twice, he and some other people

10 from his escort, people who were with him, distributed some cookies and

11 chocolates mainly to children. That's what I remember. But I really --

12 but I don't think that anybody took that back. No, that is not very

13 likely.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Mr. Ostojic or

15 Mr. Meek?

16 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President. We have no questions for

17 this witness.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Ms. Nikolic?

19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have already

20 announced that we will have no questions for this witness.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I was just confirming and I'll go through the

22 round.

23 Mr. Josse?

24 MR. JOSSE: Likewise.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Haynes?

Page 10902

1 MR. HAYNES: Yes, the position is the same here as well.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it from what you said yesterday that there

3 is re-examination.

4 MR. THAYER: Just briefly, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

6 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

7 Q. Good morning, sir. You testified about meeting or seeing

8 Mr. Kekic in Potocari on the 13th; is that correct?

9 A. On the 13th in the afternoon, when we finished the job and went to

10 the base, we were waiting for transportation, and there were two or three

11 vehicles at the UN gates marked as the UNHCR. That's where I saw Kekic.

12 Dragan Kekic is his name. He's my acquaintance, my friend. I know him by

13 his first and last name.

14 Q. Just to be clear, you hadn't seen him in Potocari until that time;

15 is that correct?

16 A. No. I didn't go to that area.

17 Q. You were shown yesterday, sir, a page with depictions of certain

18 military insignia. I don't believe this is on e-court yet. I have a copy

19 that I was given, if I could place this on the ELMO? Thank you, Madam

20 Usher. I just wanted to clarify a couple things.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, if I could just have some small

23 clarification. These are not military insignia. These are police

24 insignia.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. I think he's

Page 10903

1 correct.


3 Q. Sir, do you see the document that's next to you? If it's easier

4 to look at the original, please do, or if you want to look at the copy

5 that's on your computer screen, please do.

6 I believe yesterday you testified that prior to the issuance of

7 actual rank, these police insignia denoted the functions or positions that

8 you held; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. In the police, until the end of 1995, and throughout the

10 time that I was working there from 1979 onwards, there were never ranks.

11 There were always just functional markings indicating the place of

12 employment or work and then there were also markings for -- to indicate

13 inspectors and so on, and we would need to go into a broader analysis of

14 that, but I mean, I can go into that. I can talk about that.

15 Q. Let me just ask you a couple of focused questions. If we look in

16 the middle column, I believe you testified yesterday that the second

17 insignia from the top denoted the position you held in July of 1995; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Can I just read it? I can't see it here. It's all --

20 JUDGE KWON: Seeing it in the e-court.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see what's written there.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I have my doubts even if it is legible to the naked

23 eye.

24 MR. THAYER: I can rephrase the question, Mr. President. Perhaps

25 that will make it easier.

Page 10904

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have deciphered it. This

2 would be the markings for a detachment commander. At one time I was a

3 detachment commander, but to tell you the truth, during 1992 to 1995, that

4 period, we very rarely wore the markings because they are so specific,

5 they have a specific colour, and so when we were out in the field, we

6 would always take them off. We would not wear them. So we very rarely

7 wore this insignia.


9 Q. Okay. But just to be clear, in July of 1995 would you have

10 described your functional position as a detachment commander?

11 A. No. I had been replaced then and I was not the detachment

12 commander.

13 Q. Okay. Now, I believe you identified from the bottom up, the

14 second from the bottom in that centre column, as the insignia of

15 Mr. Borovcanin; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I just want to ask you, do you know what that functional

18 position is that's denoted by that insignia?

19 A. Deputy commander of the Special Police Brigade. That's what it

20 indicates.

21 Q. Now, sir, when the rank system was put in place, do you know what

22 the equivalent rank was that was given to that position that you just

23 described?

24 A. When ranks were given, and because this was the first time that

25 they were being given, I was given the rank of major. That was the first

Page 10905

1 rank that I got. Ranks were issued according to the posts or functions we

2 were carrying out, according to the education, length of employment.

3 There were many elements which had an influence on which rank would be

4 given to a person. Not each deputy commander would get the same rank. It

5 depended on a series of other elements because they were -- there were

6 commanders -- there were several detachment commanders but they didn't all

7 get the same rank.

8 Q. Okay. Well, as you sit here today, do you know what the rank was

9 that was issued to Mr. Borovcanin when the ranking system came into

10 effect?

11 A. I don't recall. I recall him as a colonel but I don't know

12 whether that was the first rank that he received. I really don't remember

13 that.

14 Q. Okay. You referred yesterday to Mr. Saric.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And in 1995, what was his position?

17 A. In 1995, Mr. Saric was the commander of the detachment. Actually,

18 no. He was the commander of the Special Police Brigade. Excuse me.

19 Q. And when this ranking system was adopted, do you recall what rank

20 Mr. Saric was given?

21 A. I think that he was a colonel. General Saric had completed the

22 military academy, and this is something that is a little different,

23 because after completion of secondary school, he completed the same

24 secondary school that I completed, he was -- he received a stipend from

25 the MUP and he completed the military academy.

Page 10906

1 Q. So I take it from your answer at some point Mr. Saric received a

2 promotion and actually was referred to as a general at some point; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes. Later he was promoted to a Major General.

5 Q. Now, my last question or questions for you, sir, concern how the

6 Special Police Brigade would operate in the field. Specifically, in your

7 experience with the Special Police Brigade, did the individual detachments

8 have their own area of responsibility?

9 A. Each detachment had an area of responsibility, not in military

10 terms in the sense of an area of responsibility in military

11 responsibility, but an area of responsibility in the security service.

12 But their engagement was not strictly linked to that area of

13 responsibility but if needed, they were sent to other zones.

14 Q. Okay. Let's just talk about that for a brief moment. Was it

15 common for the Special Police Brigade detachments to be sent into other

16 zones of responsibility throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when a Special Police Brigade detachment travelled, for

19 example, to Kravica, as you did in 1992 or 1993, or to Bratunac in 1995,

20 can you describe for the Trial Chamber what was supposed to happen in

21 terms of the communication or coordination between the Special Police

22 Brigade and the VRS units who themselves had their zones of responsibility

23 in a particular area, for example, Zvornik or Bratunac?

24 A. When going into the field, the detachments -- and I said before

25 that the areas of responsibilities did not have specific borders or they

Page 10907

1 were not specific, they were sort of related to the security centres, the

2 security centres did not always cover a specific territory. The

3 territories would shift with -- that were related to a security centre.

4 So there were sort of fictional areas of responsibility. This was never

5 taken into account that much, these fictitious areas of responsibility.

6 When there was a need, the brigade command would issue an order to go to a

7 certain area, to go to work.

8 So it was not always a specific area of responsibility usually.

9 The order would state that we would be subordinated to the army of

10 Republika Srpska and that we would be performing specific jobs with the

11 army of Republika Srpska. Other than that, since the special unit did not

12 have some services that the army of Republika Srpska had, and I'm speaking

13 about the logistics, we didn't have our own kitchen or that component.

14 When we would come out to the field, we would eat in the military kitchens

15 and so on. And of course, we would cooperate with the people whose area

16 of responsibility that was.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Thayer.

19 All right. There are no further questions for you, Mr. Djuric,

20 which means that your testimony finishes here. You are free to go and our

21 staff will escort you and assist you. Before you leave the courtroom, I

22 wish to thank you for having come over to give testimony, and I also wish

23 you a safe journey back home.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 10908

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exhibits, Prosecution? I have got four

2 exhibits on this list here.

3 MR. THAYER: Mr. President we have streamlined it to one exhibit

4 that we are tendering, that is PIC 00098, which was a marked copy of the

5 colour aerial of Potocari which itself was previously introduced as

6 P02478.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any objections? None? Thank you. So that

8 is admitted. Borovcanin Defence team?

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. We have four

10 documents to tender into evidence. Document number 1 is 4D98. It's

11 Republika Srpska MUP ranks insignia.

12 Document number 2 is number 4D103. It's Republika Srpska MUP

13 instructions, instruction on uniforms, functions and functional --

14 function marks.

15 The translation is still pending, so I believe it should be marked

16 for identification.

17 Third document is 4D104. It's an excerpt of the OTP video 6846.

18 Counter starts at 1715 and stops at 1725. Surrogate sheet is already

19 uploaded in the e-court system. And we will provide a CD to the Registry.

20 And the last document is -- well, basically it's more or less the

21 same document as we already tendered but it was marked by the witness and

22 dated. So it's just 4D099, we believe that it should be marked as a

23 different exhibit --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Are there any--


Page 10909

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Any objections from the Prosecution or

2 any of the Defence teams?

3 MR. THAYER: None, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, so they are so admitted, except

5 that the second, that's 4D103, that will be marked for identification

6 pending translation thereof.

7 Madam Fauveau, do you wish to tender any documents?

8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that we can close that chapter.

10 We will now ask you to contribute to the -- your position on the

11 following. Let's go into private session for a short while, please.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10910











11 Page 10910 redacted. Private session















Page 10911

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, we have granted the Prosecution's

5 confidential motion for protective measures for Witness 151, and Witness

6 151 who will start his testimony tomorrow is granted the protective

7 measures of facial and voice distortion.

8 We have also granted leave to the Nikolic Defence team to file a

9 reply on behalf of their client to the Prosecution's response to the

10 Nikolic Defence team request for certification of the Trial Chamber's oral

11 ruling regarding the conduct of the Prosecution when proofing witness PW

12 165 and request for variation of the time limits.

13 Now, the motion as I see it, is this: Witness PW 151 won't be

14 here until tomorrow. That's number 1. You do not have the green light

15 for proceeding with what you had intended to do yesterday, namely bring

16 forward a witness to testify on the provenance of the so-called Drina

17 Corps collection. So Mr. Thayer?

18 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, Mr. Vanderpuye has a brief loose end

19 to tie up with respect to one exhibit from a couple of months ago related

20 to Ms. Gilleece's testimony. I believe the Court issued some instructions

21 to the parties and Mr. Vanderpuye has followed up on that. He does have,

22 I believe, a few minutes of time to occupy, perhaps after the break, or we

23 can do it now. I think it will take five, ten minutes, at most. He is

24 here. He is ready to make the presentation. Beyond that, I'm out of

25 ideas, Mr. President.

Page 10912

1 JUDGE AGIUS: My suggestion to you, if I have the green light from

2 the interpreters and the rest of the staff, technical and everybody, is to

3 go ahead, proceed for the next ten minutes or so, until Mr. Vanderpuye

4 clears this up with us. And then we can adjourn. Unless there is further

5 business to transact.

6 What's the position? I can't see behind the dark glasses.

7 Okay. We go ahead? Okay.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?

10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your

11 Honours, good morning, counsel.

12 The issue that Mr. Thayer had referred to related to the tendering

13 of an exhibit in relation to Ms. Gilleece's testimony, P02408, and that

14 related to the statement or investigative note to file that she had

15 prepared in relation to an interview that was conducted with General

16 Pandurevic back in 2001, October, and there was a question concerning its

17 admissibility because the parties had agreed to redact certain information

18 from the document itself and ultimately were unable to agree on the

19 redactions itself.

20 The Court had indicated, in relation to the tender of the

21 document, that the parties should make an effort obviously to agree on

22 these redactions, and to the extent that that was not possible, it was the

23 intention of the Court to admit the document and then of course use its

24 discretion, as independent professional judges, to determine what weight

25 to give the document and what matters contained within the document to

Page 10913

1 consider.

2 I have made some -- I have made efforts to try to reach agreement

3 with the Defence counsel that are involved, specifically the Nikolic,

4 Beara and Pandurevic teams, and we have been unable to reach an agreement

5 on this matter.

6 I believe that the testimony at issue was before the Court back in

7 February, I think it was the 1st of February, actually, and since that

8 time, we've been unable to reach an agreement and effectively have agreed

9 to disagree, as it were.

10 Pursuant to the previous ruling of the Court, we are prepared to

11 tender the document in the manner prescribed by the Court, and that is

12 essentially unredacted, and to cede to the Court the right to use its

13 discretion to appropriately consider the matters that the Defence has

14 objected to that are contained in the document, and the matters that the

15 Prosecution has proffered as relevant to the testimony of Ms. Gilleece. I

16 don't know whether or not the Defence has any specific objections that

17 they wish to raise to the Court with respect to the matters that they

18 would have sought to have redacted from the document, and to the extent

19 that they do, I think this would probably be an opportune moment to

20 address it, maybe after the break, since I see that it is 10.30. I'll

21 talk to them over the break as well and maybe last minute we can agree on

22 something, but I think at this point, enough time has elapsed that it is

23 appropriate to tender the document pursuant to the 1st February order --

24 or rather decision of the Court.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to look at the 1st February decision in the

Page 10914

1 first place.

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do have it in the transcript and I can read it

3 back if that would again fit you at this point.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Okay. We have it here now. It reads as

5 follows, and the three Defence teams, please try to follow. This is me

6 speaking:

7 "Our conclusion is as follows: We feel that it will not be

8 appropriate to deny outright the Prosecution request to tender this

9 document. We believe that once it is obvious from the proceedings that

10 she was relying on this document, then at least as far as that goes the

11 document should be before the Trial Chamber as well. However, since there

12 is -- there are some arguments which are valid, intrinsically valid, we

13 are giving you the opportunity to consult together, particularly the

14 Ostojic and Pandurevic -- sorry, not -- the Beara and the Pandurevic

15 defence teams to consult with the Prosecution, and if you can come to an

16 agreement to the effect of redacting some parts from the document itself,

17 we will admit it with the redacted -- with the redacted parts. Otherwise,

18 we will admit it and then use our discretion, obviously. We are four

19 professional judges here, and we know that our responsibility mainly is

20 directed towards the viva voce evidence that we have heard. All right.

21 "And you will come back to us on this at the earliest. Thank

22 you." And this is where I was wrong: "I'm sure you will find a way,"

23 because you haven't.

24 So what I suggest is that you have a final round with the Defence

25 teams. Our decision was taken on the 1st of February. If there are

Page 10915

1 submissions that the Beara, Pandurevic teams would like to make, of

2 course, we are here to hear them, and then we will come down with our

3 final position on the matter.

4 Are you in a position to make submissions now, Mr. Ostojic?

5 MR. OSTOJIC: In part, I am, Mr. President and quite candidly I'm

6 a little surprised and disappointed to hear what my learned friend said.

7 I have a completely different understanding of the facts. We had an

8 agreement before Ms. Gilleece testified. They stuck to that agreement.

9 After she testified we had an agreement. I really do need to sit down

10 with my learned friend to see when he came up with his scenario that we

11 have a disagreement or were at an impasse. This is the first time I'm

12 hearing of an impasse.

13 As far as I know, we had an agreement before her testimony, during

14 her testimony, and after her testimony. I've not been given any e-mails

15 to suggest that this issue is going to come up today, that there was not

16 going to be an agreement on the redaction, as it may relate to Mr. Beara,

17 so I'm a little surprised at it, quite candidly, but I think given her

18 testimony on direct, we were restricted and confined to the

19 cross-examination, relying to our detriment apparently on that

20 representation made by the OTP.

21 So we would like to, if nothing else, but to brief the issue, but

22 I think perhaps, as Mr. President suggested, we can caucus and see where

23 there might be a little disagreement or misunderstanding on this point.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Ostojic. Fair enough.

25 Ms. Nikolic?

Page 10916

1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, precisely as my

2 colleague Mr. Ostojic said, I believe we concluded on the 5th of February

3 the final revised version of that statement and we agreed on it with

4 colleagues from the Prosecution. In the meantime, the position of the

5 Defence team of Pandurevic changed a little but I'm not going to talk

6 about that now. As for Beara and Nikolic Defence teams, I believe we have

7 agreed about that with the OTP.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 Mr. Haynes? Briefly, because we are going to suggest further

10 discussions.

11 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I also wonder at how practical an exercise it's

12 going to be to argue over the editing of this document in court rather

13 than perhaps showing you what the respective positions of the parties are

14 in writing. I think it's going to be a very messy exercise with two or

15 three or maybe more teams saying we want this out because the Prosecution

16 promised us that beforehand and we want this out because it's irrelevant

17 or we want this out because it's inadmissible and the Prosecution taking

18 their standard line, which is we want it all in. I think it's going to be

19 a very difficult exercise to for you to deal with in court. I also agree

20 with Mr. Beara, the position is that we made a joint proposal some months

21 ago, the Prosecution rejected it and there the matter went to sleep.

22 I don't by any means think it's beyond resolution, and a

23 resolution between the parties is far and away the best way of dealing

24 with this.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

Page 10917

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So our position is try to get a round table -- round

3 the table together and discuss further and come back to us the earliest

4 possible, but we believe, especially from what we've heard, that you

5 should give it another try, all of you.

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I may, I just want to be clear about

7 something. We had, as Mr. Ostojic indicated and also Ms. Nikolic

8 indicated, we had entered into a certain understanding with Defence

9 counsel with respect to the tender or admissibility of this particular

10 instrument.

11 My understanding is also Mr. Haynes has indicated that at a

12 certain point, the three parties, the three Defence parties, submitted a

13 joint proposal with respect to these redactions, and Mr. Haynes is

14 correct, those proposals, or that proposal was rejected by the Office of

15 the Prosecutor. I don't know whether or not they intend to proceed in a

16 joint fashion. If they do, then I think our position is very clear. If

17 they don't, then our position is also very clear. So I don't know how

18 fruitful it will be, although I will -- I will obviously engage them just

19 now over the break and maybe we can reach something.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Anyway, we stand adjourned now. We will

21 resume our work tomorrow with the new witness, and in the meantime, please

22 try to focus your attention on this issue and try to resolve it, failing

23 which we will have to put into place -- or we have to come down with a

24 final decision anyway.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.39 a.m.,

Page 10918

1 to be reconvened on Friday, the 4th day of May,

2 2007, at 9.00 a.m.