Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10919

1 Friday, 4 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody.

6 Madam Registrar, could you kindly call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 For the record, all the accused are here except for General

11 Miletic, and for the record, also, he has communicated his waiver to the

12 Trial Chamber.

13 The Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon. I also

14 notice the absence of Mr. Josse and Mr. Haynes. Do I take it that they

15 will be showing up later in the day? I take it that they are working on

16 other matters in the office.

17 Yes, Madam Nikolic.

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon will be joining us on

19 Monday, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Josse?

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Josse will come after the first

22 break.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. And Mr. Sarapa.

24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He will be joining us in the course of the

25 day. At the moment he's doing some other things at the office, but he

Page 10920

1 will be joining us later.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 From the Prosecution side, I see Mr. McCloskey and no one else.

4 So before we bring in the witness to start his evidence, yes, I

5 think we better go into private session for a couple of minutes. There's

6 something I need to explain to you.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10921

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Usher, you can admit the witness. In the

9 meantime, can you draw down the curtains until he comes in, he walks in

10 and takes his place.

11 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Pardon my slight appearance, but I apparently have

13 a skin ailment of some sort. It's not the result of violence, so

14 hopefully -- the doctor tells me it may come and go, but it's irritating

15 but shouldn't be a problem.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we noticed that two days ago, as soon as you

17 walked in the courtroom, and we were concerned for you, Mr. McCloskey.

18 But any time you need a break or you need some medical attention, please

19 let us know and we'll look into that.

20 Yes.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now, while we are waiting for the witness to

23 come in and take his seat, we have put in place voice distortion for this

24 witness, and therefore it is important that while he is addressing the

25 Chamber, all microphones, all other microphones except his, be kept

Page 10922

1 switched off. That's very important. So I will be keeping watch, keeping

2 an open eye, but I can't see everyone at the same time, so please try to

3 adhere to that rule.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Trial Chamber, my colleagues, Judge

8 Kwon, Judge Prost and Judge Stole, I wish to welcome you as a witness for

9 the Prosecution in this case.

10 You're familiar with the proceedings because you've already given

11 testimony before. Madam Usher is going to hand you now the text of a

12 solemn declaration that you are required to make before you start

13 testifying. Please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn

14 undertaking with us that you will be testifying the truth.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


18 [The witness answers through interpreter]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable,

20 take a seat.

21 What's going to happen, very simply put, is the following:

22 Mr. McCloskey, who is lead counsel for the Prosecution in this case, will

23 be examining you in chief, asking you a series of questions which you are

24 about to answer truthfully. There is one -- he will then be followed by

25 the various members of the Defence teams on cross-examination.

Page 10923

1 I do not expect your testimony to finish today, but all

2 arrangements have been put in place to accommodate you over the weekend.

3 Now, before we continue, there's one thing I need to explain to

4 you. You have been indicted, you have pleaded guilty or entered a guilty

5 plea, you've been convicted and sentenced, so the usual caution that we

6 would give to witnesses who might tend to incriminate themselves if they

7 answer some of the questions put to you does not hold good in your case as

8 far as the events that we're talking about, the events in Srebrenica in

9 1995 are concerned. So your obligation is to answer each and every

10 question as it arises.

11 If you do have problems, please address the Trial Chamber and we

12 will try to deal with your remarks or complaints.

13 Have I made myself clear to you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

16 Mr. McCloskey, he is in your hands. Yes, Mr. Meek.

17 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I direct you to line 17.


19 MR. MEEK: Page 4. I don't believe that --

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Don't even say anything.

21 JUDGE KWON: It will be corrected later on.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware of what we're talking about,

23 Mr. McCloskey?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That's a very fine Polish investigator whose

25 name is on the screen. I don't know how he got up there.

Page 10924

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. No, no. I just wanted to know whether it's

2 the case of redacting it or just correcting it.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we should just correct.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. So it will be corrected later on.

5 Thank you, Mr. Meek, for pointing that out to us.

6 Mr. McCloskey, you may start and proceed.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. If, because of the

8 voice distortion, if I could be allowed to sit down so I get that mike

9 right, I would appreciate it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. McCloskey.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

12 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Erdemovic.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. Can you first just tell us your name, and spell your last for the

16 record?

17 A. My name is Drazen Erdemovic, E-r-d-e-m-o-v-i-c.

18 Q. And where were you born and raised?

19 A. I was born in Tuzla. I grew up in Donja Dragunja, which is a

20 place next to Tuzla.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. McCloskey. I notice Mr. Lazarevic.

22 What's the problem, Mr. Lazarevic?

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have just been informed by my client that they

24 are not receiving witness's voice in their real voice, and I'm not

25 receiving it either. I tried already to switch off to another channel,

Page 10925

1 but it doesn't work.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We need the technicians to attend to this before we

3 can proceed.

4 Now, let's -- does this apply to all the accused? Are you all in

5 the same position or are some of you receiving the -- you are receiving

6 it? Mr. Popovic? Mr. Nikolic? No. Mr. Borovcanin? No. Mr. Gvero, are

7 you receiving?

8 THE ACCUSED GVERO: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So I think we need the witness to say

10 something else and check whether now the situation has been remedied.

11 Mr. Erdemovic, can I ask you to spell out your name again, please?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] E-r-d-e-m-o-v-i-c.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I see at least two of the accused who are not

14 receiving it.

15 Mr. Lazarevic -- Madame Fauveau?

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Fortunately, I have received it, but some of my

17 colleagues have not received it.

18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] The Defence team does not receive it

19 either from -- none of the Defence teams are receiving it, from what I

20 could understand.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand that is as far as the B/C/S. I suppose

22 you are on the right channel, all of you. I mean, I can't imagine you not

23 to be after all these months.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's hope this technical hitch is solved at the

Page 10926

1 earliest. At least can you receive -- at least can you receive

2 interpretation of what I am saying in your own language? Colonel Beara

3 is -- yes.

4 Can I ask the accused to speak again, say something -- the witness

5 to say something? Where were you born?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born in Tuzla, and I lived in

7 Donja Dragunja.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you, Mr. Lazarevic, whether you received --

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm afraid not.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: What is the problem?

11 A/V TECHNICIAN: Sorry. Can I ask B/C/S booth to speak, please?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you hear the B/C/S booth, Mr. Lazarevic?

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, no one is speaking anything on B/C/S,

14 so we cannot be sure whether we receive it or not.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it okay now, Mr. Borovcanin?

16 THE ACCUSED BOROVCANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I hear the

17 witness now, but we do not hear now the interpretation from the English.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think what I suggest is that --

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's try and have a three-minute break. In

21 the meantime, the witness can remain in the courtroom.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: The break is intended for everyone except the

24 interpreters for the time being, because we need you to remain in your

25 place so that we can try and fix this problem.

Page 10927

1 Mr. Borovcanin, are you receiving now an interpretation of what I

2 now have been saying?

3 THE ACCUSED BOROVCANIN: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. What we are going to have, let's have a

5 break. We are all going to stay here while this problem is being fixed.

6 [Discussion off the record]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I just want to make sure also that they are

8 receiving an interpretation of what I am saying now. Okay? Thank you.

9 May I ask the B/C/S-speaking counsel to follow Mr. Krgovic? I

10 just want to make sure that the B/C/S-speaking components of the Defence

11 teams can follow now the interpretation and also the direct.

12 Mr. Sarapa.

13 MR. SARAPA: I have translation, but I have no B/C/S.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: He is not receiving anything.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I can follow both B/C/S and

16 English.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And you, too, Mr. Lazarevic?

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: So far I'm just receiving B/C/S translation. I

19 just have to check whether -- yes, whether --


21 JUDGE AGIUS: And you, Mr. Lazarevic?

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Nothing, I'm afraid.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I hear no more complaints. Let's revert

24 to open session now. It seems to be working fine now? Okay.

25 Can I express the Trial Chamber's gratitude for your prompt

Page 10928

1 assistance and very efficient one, for that matter, too. Thank you.

2 So we can now proceed. Mr. McCloskey. If the problem reoccurs,

3 please draw our attention straightaway.


5 Q. All right. Well, let's try again.

6 Can you tell us what your ethnicity is?

7 A. Bosnian Croat.

8 Q. All right. Now, I am going to briefly outline some of the history

9 of your legal -- your legal history here, as briefly mentioned by the

10 Judge.

11 On 14 January 1998, did you enter a guilty plea to one count of

12 violation of article 3, a violation of the laws and customs of war?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was this pursuant to a plea agreement with the OTP?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And were the facts underlying the charge you pled guilty to

17 involving, well, your involvement and participation in the summary

18 execution of Muslim men from Srebrenica on 16 July 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And on March 5th, 1998, were you sentenced by a Trial Chamber of

21 this Tribunal to five years in prison?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And at this time, you have served your sentence; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you have testified in the rule 61 hearing, in the Krstic

Page 10929

1 trial, in the Milosevic trial; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And do you know that your testimony in the Krstic trial was placed

4 into evidence in the trial of Blagojevic and Jokic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Can you tell us what you were trained to do as you

7 went through your secondary schooling?

8 A. I went to a mechanical school, mechanical engineering school in

9 Tuzla and graduated as a locksmith.

10 Q. In what year were you born?

11 A. I was born on the 25th November 1971.

12 Q. And did you do compulsory service in the JNA?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us when that was?

15 A. That was from December, 1990 until end March, 1992.

16 Q. And what position did you have in the JNA?

17 A. I was in the military police.

18 Q. Now, after leaving the JNA, you have testified and stated many

19 times that you were then in the ABiH and then the HVO and finally in the

20 VRS. Can you give us just a brief outline --

21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe there are

22 some accused who are unable to hear.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: General Gvero? Thank you, Madame Fauveau.

24 THE ACCUSED GVERO: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it broke down

25 now, so I cannot hear the interpretation of what the Prosecutor is saying.

Page 10930

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, General Gvero, for pointing that out in a

2 prompt manner.

3 Can I ask you to repeat your question again? Say something to see

4 whether this was transient or whether it's still there.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can you hear me all right? Are you getting my

6 words in Serbian?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: General Gvero, you're still not receiving

8 interpretation?

9 THE ACCUSED GVERO: [Interpretation] No. I can hear it, but the

10 sound is very low, so I don't really get the meaning. It is so barely

11 audible that I cannot really make anything out.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Can someone help General Gvero maybe increase the

13 sound level? Can you receive interpretation now? Is it better?

14 THE ACCUSED GVERO: [Interpretation] I can hear you, but I don't

15 know whether I'll hear the Prosecutor.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: He's got a stronger voice than mine, but let's see.

17 Mr. McCloskey, I think you're called to the cause again.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Testing 1, 2, 3. Can you hear me now?

19 THE ACCUSED GVERO: [Interpretation] It's good now.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, General Gvero, and I thank you for your

21 patience, Mr. McCloskey.

22 You may proceed. Make sure that all microphones are switched off,

23 please. Go ahead.


25 Q. Now, Mr. Erdemovic, again, could you give us just a brief outline

Page 10931

1 of what you did after the JNA to be involved in the ABiH, the HVO and the

2 VRS, just briefly so we can set the scene for the 1995?

3 A. When I returned from military service in the JNA to my hometown,

4 the conflicts had already started in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Mobilisation

5 calls started first into the Territorial Defence and later the Army of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina was established. I then received a call-up to join

7 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and I responded. I wasn't there for a

8 long time. I was a scout with a mortar detail on Mount Mijovica.

9 In October of the same year, 1992, I joined the military police of

10 the HVO. I didn't stay there long, either, until November, 1993, when I

11 transferred to Republika Srpska.

12 In Republika Srpska, I did not join the VRS immediately. I moved

13 to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia because of the problems that

14 soldiers in Republika Srpska were creating for me.

15 I joined the VRS in 1994. I believe it was in the month of

16 April. It was a unit newly established, comprising eight to ten men under

17 the command of the Main Staff or, rather, the Security Service of the Main

18 Staff of the VRS.

19 Q. What was the name of that unit at that time that you joined

20 in '94?

21 A. To the best of my recollection, it was simply called "Special

22 Unit." It didn't have a particular name.

23 Q. And did it later become something else or get another name and

24 develop further?

25 A. Yes, it did. I believe in October, 1994, it was named 10th

Page 10932

1 Sabotage Detachment, and it grew to a number of 50 or 60 men. It had two

2 platoons, one in Vlasenica and one in Bijeljina.

3 Q. All right. I know I asked you to give a brief outline, and I

4 appreciate that, but let me go back just for a little more detail.

5 Can you tell us how it was -- why did you leave the ABiH and then

6 why did you join up with the HVO?

7 A. Because I was tired of being in the battlefield, and a chance

8 opened up for me to be with the military police and spend more time at

9 home.

10 Q. At that time, the HVO and the ABiH were on the same side?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. And can you tell us the circumstances surrounding your

13 leaving the HVO? Why did you end up leaving the army?

14 A. In the place where I used to live in Tuzla, the population was

15 mixed. There were Muslims, Croats and Serbs. My Serb neighbours did not

16 feel free to live there, and they asked me to help them cross a line on

17 Mount Mijovica that I knew very well because it was the line where the

18 HV -- it was the defence line facing Republika Srpska. In fact, they

19 asked me to help them cross over to Republika Srpska, and that's what I

20 did. But in doing that, I was arrested, but I cannot tell you exactly how

21 many Serbs. I was arrested, in fact, with that group of Serbs whom I was

22 supposed to help cross over, and the HVO arrested me. I was interrogated,

23 mistreated. That's it.

24 Q. All right. And given that history, how was it that the VRS

25 accepted you? Can you give us the -- I know that can be a long tale, but

Page 10933

1 can you give us the abbreviated version of how that occurred?

2 A. First of all, I was in detention, detained by the Army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then they moved me to a detention unit held by the

4 HVO. I talked to the commander of the military police whom I knew well,

5 and I asked him to release me to go home to have a shower, have a change

6 of clothes. He let me go, and I decided to cross over again to the side

7 of Republika Srpska, to the Army of Republika Srpska, but I didn't know

8 what would happen to me. Nobody was saying anything, nobody was

9 explaining anything. I didn't know why I was kept in detention, because

10 in my own understanding, I hadn't done anything bad. I just tried to help

11 some people cross over to the side of Republika Srpska.

12 And then I decided to cross over to Republika Srpska myself,

13 because I knew that I hadn't done any wrong to Serbs, and I believe -- I

14 believed that they would tell the truth. That's how I decided to move to

15 Republika Srpska.

16 Q. Okay. And how was it that you signed up for the VRS, then?

17 A. Well, at the outset from November, 1993 until April, 1994, I had

18 problems with certain units in Republika Srpska that were made up mostly

19 of refugees from the area of Tuzla, and that's why I went to the Federal

20 Republic of Yugoslav.

21 However, there, in January and February, 1994, they started to

22 mobilise Bosnian citizens who were fit for the battlefield, so I had no

23 choice but to return to Republika Srpska.

24 Before I arrived, I heard in Bijeljina that a unit was

25 established, made up of Croats, Muslims and one Slovene, so I went to the

Page 10934

1 military department in Bijeljina and they agreed that the best thing for

2 me to do would be to join that unit because there are other people of my

3 ethnicity in that unit, and that's how I decided to join that unit.

4 Q. And that's the unit that became the 10th Sabotage Unit; is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Let's go now to 1995. You've told us that there was

8 two platoons of that unit, one in Vlasenica and one in Bijeljina. Which

9 one were you in?

10 A. The one in Bijeljina.

11 Q. And roughly how many men did that unit have at that -- in 1995?

12 A. You mean the whole unit or just the Bijeljina platoon?

13 Q. Just the Bijeljina platoon.

14 A. Around 30.

15 Q. Do you know roughly how many the Vlasenica platoon had at that

16 time?

17 A. I don't know exactly, but I believe around the same.

18 Q. And can you tell us, in 1995 what was the command structure of the

19 unit? And start with the most highest-ranking people you know. You've

20 said it was part of the Main Staff. Who, if anyone, did you know that had

21 supervisory responsibility over the 10th Sabotage in 95?

22 A. Well, from what I know and from what I was able to gather, Colonel

23 Petar Salapura was the main man for our unit, was in charge of our unit.

24 I knew that even back in 1994 when we were just eight or ten men. He came

25 for meetings with us, and I saw him around, so it was Colonel Salapura.

Page 10935

1 And then later I met Major Pecanac, and I just know his nickname.

2 I have to say this in English.

3 Q. What was his nickname, then?

4 A. Pecanac.

5 Q. All right. And what other command figures did you know?

6 A. The commander of our unit was Second Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis.

7 Q. And were you aware of what part of the Main Staff Salapura was

8 from?

9 A. Yes. He belonged to the Security Service. I know that he

10 belonged to the Security Service of the Main Staff.

11 Q. Do you make any distinction between the Intelligence Service and

12 the Security Service?

13 A. Yes, but in our former country it all fit into the Security

14 Service.

15 Q. All right. So let me ask you now, can you tell us, specifically

16 in 1995, what was the function of this unit of -- in your platoon and the

17 other platoon? What were you trained to do?

18 A. We were trained for sabotage jobs, going behind enemy lines,

19 destroying hangars holding ammunition, setting explosives to blow up

20 large-calibre weapons, destroying bridges. Sabotage activities.

21 Q. Leading up to 1995 and in 1995, were you involved in various

22 operations like that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Let me ask you about one in particular that you've talked about

25 before. I believe -- did you go into -- make some kind of a foray into

Page 10936

1 Srebrenica through a tunnel?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us when you did that, how many people, and what the

4 purpose of that was?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you answer.

6 The question may present some lack of clarity. How many people,

7 what do you mean? How many people were they in his contingent that took

8 part in this foray, or do you mean to ask him something else?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll clarify that, Mr. President. Thank you.

10 Q. First of all, let me break it down a little bit. How many people

11 were set aside to go on this mission from your unit?

12 A. I cannot remember precisely how many people there were, but most

13 of the men from my unit were there, as well as the men from the Bijeljina

14 platoon and from the Vlasenica platoon. It was in March, 1995, if my

15 memory serves me well.

16 Q. So roughly how many men from the 10th Sabotage Detachment were

17 involved in this?

18 A. Around 30. I cannot remember precisely, but I think it was around

19 30 men, maybe a bit more. I can't remember better.

20 Q. And did you have any assistance from men from any other VRS units?

21 A. Yes. We had men from the Bratunac Brigade or Unit, I can't

22 remember exactly, but I believe they were from the Bratunac Brigade

23 because they knew the mine well, and then Pelemis said they would guide us

24 through that mine, that they know the mine, because there are many

25 different passages and we needed guidance in order not to get lost.

Page 10937

1 Q. And what was this operation, what was the purpose of the

2 operation?

3 A. The purpose of that operation, from what I was told, was that we

4 get in and try to start a mutiny in the ranks of the Army of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina that was in Srebrenica.

6 Q. When you say "get in," what do you mean?

7 A. I don't quite understand.

8 Q. Get in where, when you say "get in"?

9 A. To get into the town of Srebrenica through the mine and, what do I

10 know, fire a couple of grenades from hand-held launchers, to fire at

11 certain targets where it was believed that there were troops of the Army

12 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to try to create mutiny and insurgency so that

13 they should surrender and stop fighting for Srebrenica.

14 Q. Okay. And tell us about how the project turned out, how this

15 operation went off, just briefly what you guys did.

16 A. We got to an elevation above the town, overlooking the town. We

17 fired a couple of projectiles, I don't know exactly how many, from

18 hand-held launchers, and then we were shown where the command of Nasir

19 Oric was supposed to be, so we fired at that target. It didn't last long,

20 maybe 10 or 15 minutes, before we pulled out and went back to Bratunac

21 again through the tunnel.

22 Q. So did it go off as planned or did you leave for some unforeseen

23 reason?

24 A. No, I don't know of any reason why we would have had to pull out.

25 There was no firing back from the other side.

Page 10938

1 JUDGE AGIUS: What Mr. McCloskey meant to ask you is: Do you

2 consider it to have been a mission completed successfully or not?

3 A. Did I consider it? Of course I did, but I don't know what the

4 command decided about this.


6 Q. As far as you knew, had you done what you were supposed to -- had

7 the unit done what it was supposed to do?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And so let me take the opportunity here to ask you a couple

10 of issues related to the practice or policy of your unit.

11 Now, when you go into enemy lines, you obviously go through the

12 territory of the Republika Srpska through the zone of responsibility of

13 some VRS unit. When you did that, what, if you know, was the practice of

14 informing or not informing the military authority of that unit that you

15 would have been passing through?

16 A. Yes, I know that we had to inform the units that were holding

17 those lines that we were going to be going on some actions in their area

18 of responsibility.

19 Q. Do you know if your commanders had to tell the commanders of that

20 unit what exactly you'd be doing in the enemy territory?

21 A. No. From what I know, they just had to inform the command of the

22 unit that was holding the line of responsibility, but no one was told

23 about the kind of assignment that was to be carried out. Only our command

24 knew what kind of action was involved.

25 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to July of 1995, and at some point did you

Page 10939

1 receive word that you were being charged with going to Srebrenica?

2 A. On the 10th of July, since our company was in the Bijeljina

3 barracks, it was our duty every morning at 8.00 a.m. to appear -- well, if

4 you want me to put it that way. It was like reporting to work. When I

5 came to the barracks, I was told that we were going out on an assignment,

6 that I should go home, that I needed to bring another uniform and

7 everything else that I needed, personal hygiene kit and so on. I wasn't

8 told then that we were going towards Srebrenica, but later that day I

9 found out that we were going to Srebrenica.

10 Q. What kind of uniforms did the 10th Sabotage have at that time?

11 A. We had a black uniform, a uniform of the Army of Republika Srpska,

12 a uniform of the US Army, and we had a uniform that was worn by the Army

13 of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO.

14 Q. And were you told or ordered what uniform to take on this

15 operation on 10 July?

16 A. No. I think I was wearing the black uniform, and then I went home

17 and I put the uniform that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

18 Croatian Defence Council wore.

19 Q. And when did you find out what this operation would be about?

20 A. When we arrived at Bratunac with our own vehicle, we -- when we

21 got to Bratunac, we stopped in front of some prefabricated huts or shacks,

22 and we learned that some people from Vlasenica were going to arrive and

23 that together we would be going to Srebrenica.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed, Mr. McCloskey, could you please

25 ask the witness these questions? First, in relation to the black uniform,

Page 10940

1 whether that also carried any insignia. And same question in relation to

2 the uniform -- other uniform that he put on, that is the one of the Army

3 of Republika Srpska, did it carry the insignia of that army as well, did

4 it show any insignia of that army as well? Thank you.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. First, can you describe the black uniform and whether it had any

7 insignia on it?

8 A. The black uniform was just overalls, and we had insignia that

9 could be transferred from one uniform to another. It was the insignia of

10 the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

11 Q. All right. And how about the camouflage uniform, the regular VRS

12 uniform, did it have any insignia or can you describe that?

13 A. It was a regular two-piece VRS uniform, and as I said, we had one

14 insignia each that we were issued with, and we could move that or transfer

15 that from one uniform to another. Mostly, when we went out on sabotage

16 actions, we would wear no insignia. We would leave everything, insignia,

17 our military booklet and all the other documents that we had, behind.

18 Q. Do you remember if you wore any insignia on the Srebrenica

19 operation of July 10th?

20 A. I think that I did have the insignia of the 10th Sabotage

21 Detachment, and I think that on my right soldier I had a red ribbon or

22 band, and I think we were given that when we got to the hill above

23 Srebrenica on the 10th of July.

24 Q. Have you had a chance to see still photographs of video of the

25 Srebrenica operation where your colleagues were in both those uniforms?

Page 10941

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And we'll be having some exhibits a little later, so you can

3 describe that in more detail.

4 Can you tell us how many -- you may have said this, but as you

5 arrived in Bratunac, how many men were in your unit and what was the

6 command structure? Who was there in command?

7 A. When we came to Bratunac, the people from Vlasenica still hadn't

8 come. Franc Kos was in charge of our detachment. He waited for the

9 others to arrive from Vlasenica and probably for Pelemis to come or Major

10 Pecanac to issue further orders to us.

11 Q. And did they finally arrive?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And when the Vlasenica group arrived, how many -- roughly how many

14 total, were now from your group, the Bijeljina and the Vlasenica group,

15 how many total 10th Sabotage people were there assembled there in

16 Bratunac, I take it?

17 A. I think that there were between 30 and 50 persons. I can't

18 remember exactly, because some people from my unit were on another

19 assignment. Between 30 and 40 persons, something like that.

20 Q. And who was in command?

21 A. When the rest arrived from Vlasenica, Lule, that's his nickname, I

22 only knew his nickname, he had more information about what would happen

23 later.

24 Q. And what about Pelemis; did he show up?

25 A. Yes, but Pelemis came later when we were already on the road to

Page 10942

1 Srebrenica.

2 Q. All right. And what information did you learn from the person you

3 know as Lule?

4 A. Since most of us got there by buses, they told us that trucks

5 would be arriving to take us to Srebrenica, and not long after that this

6 happened. I can't remember exactly, I can't explain exactly, but we

7 didn't take the asphalt road. We went through woods, over hills. They

8 were using hilly-terrain vehicles from the former JNA.

9 Q. Let me take you briefly back to this prefab building that you

10 talked about that was in Bratunac. Do you know what kind of facility that

11 was, military or civilian?

12 A. From what I could see, it was a civilian facility, but it was used

13 for military purposes.

14 Q. All right. And about roughly what time of day did you start off

15 from Bratunac and go through the woods towards Srebrenica? This would be

16 on the -- still on the 10th of July, I take it.

17 A. Yes. It was late afternoon. I can't remember the exact time. It

18 was late afternoon.

19 Q. And where did you go that late afternoon through those woods

20 towards Srebrenica?

21 A. Yes, we went towards Srebrenica. I didn't know the terrain

22 enough, but later I found out that, well, we came from the southern side

23 of Srebrenica. We passed through the UN check-point. There was no one

24 there. Then we continued towards Srebrenica, and we only stopped when we

25 came to an elevation above Srebrenica town itself.

Page 10943

1 Q. And what happened that evening of the 10th, if anything?

2 A. Pelemis appeared, and he told us that we were going to spend the

3 night at the elevation above Srebrenica and that most probably our unit

4 would be the first to enter the town of Srebrenica the next day, not that

5 night. We were not going to do anything that night. We were to rest, and

6 then in the morning we would set off to capture the town of Srebrenica.

7 Q. Did he give you an idea of what kind of resistance was expected?

8 A. I can say I think that he didn't tell us at that time what exactly

9 was expected, but he told us that the next morning, when we were preparing

10 to go into the town.

11 Q. Can you tell us roughly how many kilometres or less you were from

12 the town of Srebrenica when you started off, just roughly so we can get a

13 picture?

14 A. How do you mean, when I left from Bratunac or when we set off in

15 the morning on the 11th towards the town?

16 Q. When you set off on the 11th towards Srebrenica.

17 A. I think that that was already the outskirts of Srebrenica. I

18 think that we were not really -- we're not talking kilometres here. These

19 were the outskirts of Srebrenica, one of the suburbs.

20 Q. Did you receive any fire from the enemy on the night of the 10th

21 or the early morning hours of the 11th before you actually set off?

22 A. No, there was no firing; maybe here and there, but there was no

23 fierce fighting or shooting.

24 Q. Now, I had interrupted you when you told us that Pelemis had, that

25 morning of the 11th, told you something about what sort of resistance to

Page 10944

1 expect. Can you tell us what he told you?

2 A. He told us that we could expect strong resistance and that most

3 probably, according to their information, the first resistance encountered

4 could be around the first mosque as you went down into the town, which was

5 in the southern part of the town. And he told us that we should call the

6 civilian population to come out of their houses because we had to search

7 the houses, and we were to send them to the stadium which was in front of

8 us, in the direction that we were going.

9 Q. Did he give you any other special instructions about how to treat

10 civilians?

11 A. Yes. He said that we were not to shoot at the civilians in any

12 case and that we were to direct them in front of us towards the stadium.

13 Q. And at that time did he or did you get -- well, did he give you

14 any -- did Pelemis give you any information about any other units that

15 would be joined with you on the attack or that were adjacent to you?

16 A. That morning, he also told us that our unit, because we were the

17 first to enter the town, would be joined by 15 persons from the Drina

18 Wolves, and he told us -- he explained to us that the other units, once we

19 started to descend into the town, would be giving us support, and then

20 once we get into the town, they will start to come down from the

21 elevations around Srebrenica. I cannot recall exactly. He said that the

22 units from Bratunac, Milici -- I can't remember which other units he

23 mentioned. I think I remember well the ones from Bratunac and Milici.

24 Q. What was your knowledge of what the Drina Wolves were?

25 A. According to what I heard, I'm not sure, because I didn't have

Page 10945

1 access to the unit, and until then I had never been in contact with that

2 unit. I think that it was perhaps also a special unit of the Drina Corps,

3 something like that.

4 Q. Was there a man that you knew was associated with that unit, or a

5 nickname of a man?

6 A. Yes, Legenda.

7 Q. And what was Legenda?

8 A. On the basis of what I heard, I don't know exactly, but I heard

9 that he was the commander of the unit, of the Drina Wolves.

10 Q. Can you describe briefly what happened that morning as you set off

11 towards Srebrenica? We're now on the morning of 11 July.

12 A. As I already said, we divided into groups. Pelemis also went with

13 us that morning into the town. Perhaps it was already noon. I don't know

14 exactly. For me, it was still morning. And he told us that we would be

15 joined by the people from the Drina Wolves. As I already said, that we

16 shouldn't shoot for no reason, that we should be calling to the people to

17 come out of their houses. He told us not to fire at civilians. Again, it

18 was explained that most probably there would be major resistance and that

19 we would be the first unit to descend into the town.

20 I don't know exactly when we set off for the town. We set off

21 from the elevation at the southern side of Srebrenica, and to my surprise,

22 there was -- there were no major obstacles as we were passing through the

23 town. We came up against -- or we encountered civilians who were

24 elderly. They had problems walking and so on.

25 Q. Had you ever been involved in an assault like this on a -- you

Page 10946

1 know, a joint effort, as opposed to the sabotage missions you've

2 described?

3 A. No, but the people from Vlasenica who joined us had such

4 assignments before joining our unit.

5 Q. Okay. So what happens next as you encounter these older

6 civilians?

7 A. As I already said, Pelemis said that the first stronger resistance

8 could appear near the first mosque. However, we reached that mosque, some

9 elderly people, a few of them, came out of the houses, and we just told

10 them that they should be walking in front of us and that nothing would

11 happen to them, they should just walk in front of us.

12 One of the soldiers, I can't remember exactly who, but I think it

13 was Velimir Popovic, there was a flag on the mosque. He went and he took

14 the flag down from the mosque. And we continued towards the town. Here

15 and there, there was sporadic firing, but nothing dangerous.

16 Q. And did you come across any military-aged men at some point,

17 Muslim?

18 A. When we reached that -- what I thought to be the center of town,

19 there were already buildings in the town. There was a mosque there as

20 well. A person appeared, and from what I could see it seemed to be an

21 able-bodied person who could be in the army. He came out, surrendered,

22 and said that he was not in the army, that he had no problems with Serbs,

23 had nothing against Serbs, something like that. I can't remember exactly

24 the words. And then the people who had already started to come down from

25 the surrounding hills -- we were already in the center of town. There was

Page 10947

1 no fierce fighting, so they started to mistreat him. And not long after

2 that, Pelemis ordered one of the soldiers from Vlasenica to go and kill

3 that person.

4 Q. When you say the people that came down from the hills started to

5 mistreat him, which -- specifically, which people do you mean so we get a

6 better idea?

7 A. Soldiers of Republika Srpska.

8 Q. Did you actually hear Pelemis order that this Muslim man be

9 killed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did Pelemis give this order to anyone in particular?

12 A. Yes. It was a soldier from the Vlasenica platoon. His name is

13 Zoran. I know his nickname, Maljic, but I don't know his surname.

14 Q. And what happened when Pelemis gave Zoran this order?

15 A. What happened was that Zoran went off immediately and slit the

16 throat of that man.

17 Q. And where did this occur?

18 A. In the square, from what I could tell, in the center of town.

19 Q. What, if anything, was done with the man's body?

20 A. Nothing was done at that point in time. Later, I returned to the

21 southern side because Pelemis and -- told me and a few other people from

22 my unit to return to that position where we entered town and to wait there

23 until -- well, to secure the entrance to the town and to let him know when

24 General Mladic passes through, which is what we did.

25 I don't know what happened later with the body of that man. I

Page 10948

1 didn't -- I wasn't in that place anymore to be able to see what had

2 happened.

3 Q. Can you tell us about roughly what time that murder occurred?

4 A. I don't know exactly. It was perhaps between 1.00 and 2.00 p.m.

5 on that day. I don't know.

6 Q. Can you tell us roughly about what time you took up this position

7 that Pelemis told you about, to wait to inform him of when Mladic came

8 through?

9 A. It could have been about 2.00 or 3.00. I don't know. I cannot

10 remember the exact time.

11 Q. And did Mladic come through that day?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember roughly, again just roughly, I know this -- what

14 time Mladic came through?

15 A. I don't remember the exact time, but I know that it wasn't much

16 later after we returned to that position.

17 Q. And how did he travel through? Was he in vehicles or on foot?

18 A. Vehicles passed. I think there were three vehicles. Mladic was

19 in the first one. I think there was a Praga, that's what we called it in

20 the army, that was going or moving ahead.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Mr. President, this might be a good

22 time to take a break.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's have a 25-minute break starting from now.

24 Thank you.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

Page 10949

1 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, Mr. Haynes has -- is now present in

3 the courtroom.

4 Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, before we continue the -- with the events from 11

7 July, I want to go back to a topic, and I know it's been a long time since

8 you've thought and talked about a lot of this material, so I want to read

9 you a couple of answers that you have given on a topic and see if that

10 helps refresh your recollection. It's about the position of Mr.

11 Salapura.

12 So let's just take a second here, and I'm sure you recall speaking

13 to Jean Rene Ruez, well, a few times, but I'm speaking of the April, 1996

14 interview, and he asked you at one point:

15 "Do you know who was above Lieutenant Pelemis?"

16 This is page 8 of the English. And your answer was: "Colonel

17 Salapura."

18 And Mr. Ruez said:

19 "Colonel Salapura was constantly present inside the unit or did he

20 only appear in some specific circumstances?"

21 Your answer was:

22 "He was in the Intelligence Centre of the main chief command and

23 we saw him very rarely and only on specific occasions."

24 Now, let me go to the Krstic trial of 22 May where Mr. Harmon

25 asked you the following on page 3079:

Page 10950

1 "I'd like you to then identify some of the hierarchy of the 10th

2 Sabotage Detachment as you knew it in July of 1995. Could you please tell

3 us, from the highest levels working down to the level of Franc Kos and

4 Lule, what was the reporting chain of command?"

5 And your answer was:

6 "As far as I know, in the first place there was Colonel Salapura

7 from the Main Staff, the Intelligence Centre. He was there from the

8 beginning, when there were eight of us, and later on as well."

9 Having heard that, does that refresh your recollection a bit

10 better about the position of Salapura?

11 A. Yes. What I said here this morning earlier, I was trying to find

12 the words in Serbo-Croatian to explain it, but unfortunately, I have

13 little contact nowadays with people who speak Serbo-Croatian, and I have

14 difficulty finding the words, and that's why I was trying to find the

15 simplest way of putting things.

16 But that's correct, he was with the Intelligence Centre, and the

17 Security Service is the same thing for me, because when I was with the

18 JNA, it used to be the Security Service, and we used to call all the

19 people engaged in intelligence work security men.

20 Q. All right. But you can be clear now that you have said to

21 Mr. Ruez, you've testified -- in fact, I think you've always said that

22 Mr. Salapura was an intelligence officer. Is that your memory now?

23 A. Yes, I remember that. But as I said, I tried to formulate that

24 earlier this morning. I couldn't remember the word.

25 Q. Okay, no problem. Now, I believe we left off where you had said

Page 10951

1 that General Mladic did go through your check-point in the southern part

2 of town in vehicles. Can you just describe to us briefly what happened

3 the rest of that day on the 12th, if anything in particular? Excuse me,

4 that's the 11th.

5 A. The 11th. Well, not much was happening, as far as my unit is

6 concerned. Most of us remained closer to the south side of the town,

7 looking from the center, where we set up that check-point, a security

8 check-point, so that General Mladic can enter the town in safety. At one

9 point, one of my colleagues and I set out towards the center, and then we

10 encountered several soldiers from my unit, and there were also several

11 persons whom I didn't know. They were drinking Sljivovica from a plastic

12 jerry can. We started talking. One of the soldiers who belonged to my

13 unit gave me a -- or rather gave that person at the check-point a

14 hand-held launcher, the person whom I didn't know.

15 I asked him, "Why did you give that to him?" And he said, "He's

16 going to be retired soon." And I asked, "Who is it?" And they answered

17 that it was General Zivanovic. One person from my unit said, "He's not a

18 general, he's a drunk."

19 Q. All right. And what else happened that day?

20 A. Then I heard that some of the units asked Pelemis about checking

21 that mine, one entrance to which was in Srebrenica and the other entrance

22 was on the Bratunac side. I cannot recall the name now, but one of the

23 commanders of a brigade from the Zvornik Corps asked Pelemis, since we

24 already knew that mine, that our unit be assigned to check those pits, and

25 that's why we were told to stay overnight in Srebrenica the night of the

Page 10952

1 11th. Nothing much was happening that I could see. However, Pelemis and

2 individuals from Vlasenica were not there with us. They showed up later.

3 Q. When did Pelemis show back up?

4 A. Pelemis appeared early in the evening. He didn't stay long. He

5 just said that we split into two groups, to stay in two different houses,

6 and the next day we would go to check that mine. And then he left with

7 his driver. His driver and he did not spend the night in Srebrenica.

8 There was only with us the commander of the Vlasenica platoon and the

9 commander of the Bijeljina platoon.

10 Q. So did you spend the night in those two houses?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And just briefly describe what you did the next day, very briefly,

13 if you could.

14 A. The next day, nothing happened. We just waited for Pelemis to

15 come the next day so that we can go and check those pits. However, when

16 Pelemis did come, we were told that we were not going to do that, after

17 all, that we were going back to Vlasenica instead.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I hate to interrupt you, Mr. McCloskey, but since

19 we've moved now to the 12th, I would like to know from the witness whether

20 at any time during the 11th, while he and his platoon are there in

21 Srebrenica in the centre of town, whether they could see any inhabitants

22 of Srebrenica around or was it a ghost town at the time?

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.

24 Q. Could you describe any -- could you answer the Judge's question?

25 Did you see any Muslims, any civilians, aside -- you've described briefly,

Page 10953

1 but could you give us more information on what you would have seen or not

2 seen related to civilians?

3 A. The only civilians I saw were those who came out of their homes

4 when we called to them. Perhaps 200 persons. Those were the only

5 civilians I saw in Srebrenica, including that civilian who was killed.

6 They were the only ones that I saw. I didn't see any more civilians until

7 that thing that happened at Branjevo Farm on the 16th.

8 Later on, when I came to The Hague, I was shown videotapes, and

9 only then did I realise that there had been civilians in Potocari, because

10 I didn't know that area well at all, I didn't know that place was called

11 Potocari.

12 Q. Okay. Can you tell us about roughly how many civilians came out

13 of buildings, as you've described, and that you sent up towards the soccer

14 field on the other end of town?

15 A. Well, I think I just said a moment ago that it was around 200

16 persons.

17 Q. So that evening, when you were staying in the two buildings, did

18 any Muslims come by or did you see any Muslims on the street, anything

19 like that?

20 A. No, we didn't see any civilians at all. Nobody even talked about

21 it.

22 Q. All right. And I think I'll now ask you to -- you've seen, over

23 the years, video and photographs. I want to go over some what were

24 photographs from the Krstic exhibits that you had identified. And the

25 first one, if we could have 65 ter 1966.

Page 10954

1 Now, these were from the Krstic trial, and so their quality is

2 perhaps a little different than the quality that we've seen on the video,

3 but have you had a chance yesterday to actually see the video that these

4 stills were taken from to help your recollection and your confirmation of

5 these stills?

6 A. Stills? Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Before he answers the question, Witness, do you

8 understand English?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, it doesn't really make a difference, but

11 before we show him these stills, I understand that at least one of these

12 stills has got some yellow markings on it.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. The first one has a yellow dot, but I don't

14 think it really gives anything away or -- and it's something he's talked

15 about before in the other trial.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections on the part of the Defence teams?

17 We hear none. Okay, then we can proceed. Thank you.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Okay. We now see this photograph.

20 Q. Do you recognise the fellow with the -- well, it's obviously

21 been -- we put on that yellow dot years ago. Do you recognise that

22 person?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And do you know what unit he's from?

25 A. Yes. He was from my unit, the 10th Sabotage Detachment, but he

Page 10955

1 was in the Vlasenica platoon. I know his nickname, Cico. He would

2 sometimes serve as the driver to our commander, Milomir Pelemis.

3 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 65 ter 1979.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we do so, the gear that he's wearing there,

5 the camouflage trousers and a kind of a T-shirt or vest, was that part of

6 the uniform of the Vlasenica platoon or is he wearing casual -- partly

7 casual clothes?

8 A. Well, first of all, from what I can remember, he never went on

9 missions, he never went into action. He was always in the rear, and he

10 was always dressed like that. And that's how he was dressed when he

11 served as a driver to the commander of our detachment.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 Yes, go ahead, Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. Those camouflage pants that he's wearing, are those like the

16 camouflage pants you would have worn in your camo gear that you described?

17 A. Those uniforms were mostly in the Vlasenica platoon. It comes

18 from the Greek army, and the Vlasenica platoon had most of them.

19 Q. All right. Do you see that helmet he's got in his left hand? Did

20 you get a better look at that helmet in another picture from the video?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know where that helmet came from?

23 A. It's a helmet from the UN soldiers. It had been taken from one

24 armoured vehicle that Cico and some other men from our unit appropriated

25 for our unit.

Page 10956

1 Q. All right. Let's go to the next photograph, 65 ter 1979.

2 Now, we see a UN vehicle off the side of the road and an

3 individual. Before I ask you about the individual, do you know if you

4 were on this particular road or was that not a place that you guys went,

5 if you can tell at all where this road is?

6 A. To be quite honest, this place does not mean anything to me. I

7 don't recognize it.

8 Q. So you never would have gone by this UN vehicle that's stuck on

9 the side of the road?

10 A. I can't remember passing by. I did pass by the UN base that was

11 located on the south side, but I didn't see a single vehicle.

12 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you about this man again who has a

13 yellow dot that's been put on the photograph. Do you recognise the man in

14 this picture?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who is he?

17 A. He was the radio operator in our unit, but he belonged to the

18 Vlasenica platoon. I know him by nickname. I don't know his real name.

19 Q. What's his nickname?

20 A. Bujo.

21 Q. Now, the uniform he's wearing, can you tell us about that?

22 A. That uniform belonged to our unit. It was the black one. And if

23 I may just say, on the left arm he's wearing the insignia of our unit. I

24 believe that's the one, because it's white.

25 Q. All right. I know that's not a great picture of the insignia, but

Page 10957

1 can you just describe -- just describe the insignia, if you can. What's

2 it of?

3 A. All I can remember is that it was written on it "10th Sabotage

4 Detachment," and there was a white eagle. I cannot be sure now. It's

5 been a long time since I last saw it.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, 1978. Now, this is not a great

7 quality, but having seen the video and seeing this shot, can you give us

8 any help on who these people are?

9 A. The person who is closer to the UN armoured vehicle, it's my

10 assumption, but I saw the photograph and I know that it is Cico, and the

11 other one is also a signalsman who served with the Vlasenica platoon, but

12 I cannot remember his name, nor even his nickname.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's try to clarify this. The guy who is wearing

14 what appears to be a blue helmet, who -- is that Cico?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's go to the next shot, 65 ter 1977.

18 Q. This man in the forefront with the rifle stock in his back, do you

19 recognise that person?

20 A. Yes. That's a person from the Vlasenica platoon. His name is

21 Zoran Stupar. He was logistics man in the Vlasenica platoon.

22 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 65 ter 1980. This will be a

23 photograph where three men are numbered in yellow, 1, 2, 3, that you have

24 previously identified. I'll ask you, if you can by number, if you can

25 recall, who they were.

Page 10958

1 A. Number 1 is Bujo, the signalsman in our unit, from the Vlasenica

2 platoon. Number 2 was also a signalsman with our unit, also from the

3 Vlasenica platoon. Number 3, from what I can remember, is Cico, who was

4 also in our unit. He served as a driver to our detachment commander,

5 and "Cico" was his nickname.

6 Q. Number 2, had you seen him in the previous -- in one of the

7 previous photographs?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is he the person whose name you didn't know that was standing next

10 to the person with the blue helmet?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Let's go to 65 ter 1981.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you do so. We have seen a

14 sequence of photos in which this Cico sometimes appearing either carrying

15 or wearing a blue helmet, other times not. The witness said that he

16 recalls this Cico having procured such helmet or helmets. Can he tell us

17 whether the procurement of such helmets occurred before this instance or

18 after?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.

20 Q. Do you know anything about how he procured -- how he got this

21 helmet?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, would he have had it before this

23 occasion already?

24 A. I don't know where this is, which place this is where this is

25 happening, but I assume that he most probably found the helmet in the

Page 10959

1 vehicle.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we can play this segment of the

3 video - it's lined up - if you would like. It may make more sense, but it

4 would take some time. I don't know if you want to see it or not.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. For the time being, let's proceed. Thank

7 you.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I think I'd called up 65 ter 1981.

9 Q. Okay. Now, we see three people in what appear to be black

10 uniforms, numbered 1, 2, 3. Number 1, do you know who that is?

11 A. Yes. That's a person from my unit. He belonged to the Bijeljina

12 platoon.

13 Q. Do you recall his name?

14 A. Yes, Velimir Popovic.

15 Q. And number 2, he is a member of your unit?

16 A. Yes. He belonged to the Vlasenica platoon.

17 Q. Now, you have never given us his name; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And can you tell us briefly why?

20 A. Because that person is quite -- how can I explain it? That person

21 did not take part in anything that was not permitted, and because above

22 all, he was very pleasant to me.

23 Q. All right. Well, I won't go any further than that.

24 Number 3, do you know who that was?

25 A. Number 3, yes, that's a person from my unit. He was in the

Page 10960

1 Bijeljina platoon. His name is Stanko Savanovic.

2 Q. Now, the person on the far left in the camouflage uniform, at the

3 time did you ever see that person around Srebrenica at all?

4 A. No. Now I know it's General Krstic. I even testified in his

5 case. But I emphasise that I didn't have any contacts with that person.

6 Q. All right. Well, now I don't have any more of those photographs.

7 Let's go to the 12th. And I think you talked briefly about it. Can you

8 take up where you left off? What happened on the 12th?

9 A. As I already said, when Pelemis, the commander of our detachment,

10 returned to Srebrenica, he said that the mine does not need to be

11 searched, that we should pack and go back to Vlasenica, which is what we

12 did. I cannot remember exactly when we started to go back to Vlasenica,

13 but I know that we went via a surface mine in Milici, taking a road

14 through the woods.

15 Q. Did you get anywhere near Potocari on your way towards Milici and

16 Vlasenica?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And did you learn about anything happening to anyone on the 12th?

19 Was there some sort of accident?

20 A. The vehicle that I was in, on the way from Srebrenica to

21 Vlasenica, broke down, so that we stayed behind for a few hours. I can't

22 remember how long, but we stayed behind for a long time until the vehicle

23 was fixed. And then when we got to Vlasenica, we found out that the UN

24 transporter had overturned, and it was driven by the commander of our

25 unit, Pelemis, and that one of the soldiers perished. This was not far

Page 10961

1 from the Vlasenica base, which was in the Dragasevac Place. It's on the

2 road from Vlasenica towards Kladanj.

3 Q. What was the name of this soldier that died in the accident?

4 A. Dragan Kolibrat.

5 Q. Had he been one of the soldiers involved in the Srebrenica

6 operation with you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you receive -- what was your next assignment that you

9 received after getting back to the base at Vlasenica?

10 A. When we came back to Vlasenica, we heard what happened to

11 Kolibrat, Dragan, and then in the morning -- actually, in the night, we

12 didn't know anything about that was happening, and then when we got up in

13 the morning on the 13th, Dragan Kolibrat, who was from the Bijeljina

14 platoon, and then in the morning the logistics guys from the Vlasenica

15 platoon, I think it was Zoran Stupar who came and said that I and a few

16 other people should go to the funeral in Trebinje.

17 Q. And where is Trebinje from Vlasenica?

18 A. Trebinje is to the south. It's close to the Republic of Croatia,

19 near the town of Dubrovnik.

20 Q. And can you briefly describe that trip, who you went with, when

21 you went, how long you stayed?

22 A. We went on the 13th. If the situation was quiet, it wouldn't take

23 long to get there. However, that particular trip took much longer than it

24 would take before the war when you travelled, because we had to take a

25 detour in the mountains around Sarajevo and the roads were quite bad.

Page 10962

1 Q. How many of you went?

2 A. Six or seven. I can't remember exactly.

3 Q. And how long were you there?

4 A. Like I said, it took us almost all day on the 13th to get there.

5 The funeral was on the 14th. We set off late on the 14th, late at night,

6 on our return, and the journey back also took a long time, and it was

7 during the night.

8 Q. What day did you come back?

9 A. The 15th, in the early morning.

10 Q. And where did you go on the 15th?

11 A. We came to Vlasenica. We went to sleep. We were tired from the

12 trip and the funeral and everything. We didn't sleep. We were on alert,

13 practically speaking, from the 10th until the 15th.

14 Q. And what happened, if anything, on the morning of the 16th?

15 A. On the 16th, in the morning, we were in one of the rooms where the

16 beds were for resting. Brano Gojkovic came and said that I, Franc Kos,

17 Zoran Goronja should get our weapons ready and prepare to go for an

18 assignment.

19 Q. And then what happened?

20 A. We did that, and maybe after half an hour we set off from

21 Dragasevac, our unit's base, towards Zvornik.

22 Q. How many people?

23 A. Eight.

24 Q. And can you name those people?

25 A. I, Brano Gojkovic, Zoran Svetkovic, who was driving the vehicle,

Page 10963

1 Marko Boskic, Golijan -- I can't remember his first name -- Zoran Goronja,

2 Franc Kos, and Stanko Savanovic.

3 Q. Who was in charge?

4 A. Brano Gojkovic.

5 Q. What was his rank, if any?

6 A. From what I know, he didn't have a rank.

7 Q. What was your rank or position at that time in the unit?

8 A. Before that, I was a corporal in the Army of Republika Srpska. I

9 was a corporal in the 10th Sabotage Detachment, and because of conflicts

10 between me and Milorad Pelemis, who was the commander of our unit, he

11 stripped me of the rank. I was actually the commander of a group in the

12 Bijeljina platoon, but at that moment I was just a regular soldier.

13 Q. And did you know who had given Brano Gojkovic the command of this

14 unit?

15 A. He said that Pelemis came and said to get ready, so I conclude, on

16 the basis of that, that Pelemis told Brano what needed to be done.

17 Q. Before you left on this assignment, did you see any officers like

18 Pelemis or anyone above him around Vlasenica, where you guys were staying?

19 A. That morning, Pelemis was there, but the night when we returned to

20 Vlasenica from Srebrenica, this was on the 12th at night, Major Pecanac

21 was there.

22 Q. Had -- could you tell whether or not Pelemis had been -- had any

23 kind of injury?

24 A. All I know is that he had a bandage -- plaster Band-Aid on his

25 forehead, because he had overturned in the UN armoured vehicle.

Page 10964

1 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back to your departure with this group of men

2 that you've named. Who was driving this vehicle?

3 A. Zoran Svetkovic was driving.

4 Q. I'm sorry, I may have asked you this, but could you describe the

5 vehicle and its colour?

6 A. It was a Volkswagen van, green in colour.

7 Q. And where did you go?

8 A. We went in the direction of Zvornik.

9 Q. And where did you first stop?

10 A. We stopped not far from the exit to Zvornik. There was some

11 buildings there. We stopped near a gate somewhere there, and then Brano

12 was the first one to go inside, and he talked with the military police who

13 were in that kind of building near this gate, and they allowed our vehicle

14 to enter.

15 Q. Okay. If we could bring up 65 ter 1915.

16 Do you recognise what's depicted on this photo?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What is that?

19 A. These are the buildings, the compound with the buildings, where we

20 went in on that day, the 16th of July.

21 Q. All right. If we could go to the next photo, which is a bit of a

22 closer-up. It's 65 ter 1916. And I'm going to be asking him to make some

23 markings on this. There's a new piece of equipment that will allow you to

24 mark on this, this screen.

25 Looking at this photo that is up there, is that the place you're

Page 10965

1 talking about?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And can you -- you said, I believe, that the vehicle, your

4 vehicle, was allowed inside the gate. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And can you, roughly, remember where your vehicle parked when it

7 went inside the gate?

8 A. When we passed through the gate, we parked immediately to the

9 left.

10 Q. Do you see, roughly, where you were parked on this photograph?

11 A. No. It was a little bit further off to the left.

12 Q. All right. Well, I apologise. Let's go back to the last

13 photograph, 1915.

14 Now, if you can, can you take this pen and just put a little

15 bus-like rectangle where your minivan was parked? It should leave a

16 mark.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. All right, and let's -- so did you ever get out of the vehicle

19 when it was parked there?

20 A. No. Brano came up to the vehicle, and he just told Zoran to park

21 there, and the two of them went together into this -- how can I explain

22 it? For me, it was some kind of reception area or guard house.

23 Q. Can you put GH for guardhouse just on the building where you saw

24 these guys go?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 10966

1 Q. And tell us what happened next, what you saw.

2 A. Not long after that, Brano and Zoran came out with a military

3 person, and from what I could see of his rank insignia on his chest, he

4 was a lieutenant-colonel. And then another two policemen, military

5 policemen, came out of the building together with him.

6 Q. Can you describe the person that you believed was a

7 lieutenant-colonel?

8 A. He was quite tall, corpulent, greyish hair. His face had strong

9 features in this area, and he was wearing a uniform of the Army of

10 Republika Srpska.

11 Q. Do you remember any facial hair?

12 A. No, he didn't have a beard or a moustache.

13 Q. Do you remember any eyeglasses?

14 A. No, I cannot remember exactly, but I don't believe so.

15 Q. Okay. And you've also mentioned two military policemen came with

16 him. How do you -- how did you know that they were military policemen?

17 A. They had the insignia of the military police. I didn't see it

18 right away. I think that one of them had a white cross belt. I can't

19 remember exactly, but I think that he did have a white cross belt.

20 Q. Do you remember seeing any patch or insignia that said anything on

21 these two people that you've described as military police?

22 A. Yes, but I only saw that later. I couldn't see it there. I saw

23 it later, once they came out of the vehicles at the Branjevo Farm.

24 Q. So the persons you saw come out of vehicles at the Branjevo Farm,

25 were they the same two people you saw come out of the guardhouse?

Page 10967

1 A. Yes, they were the same people, plus this lieutenant-colonel was

2 with them.

3 Q. Okay. And I'm skipping ahead a bit, but what were you able to

4 make from their insignia or from their patch at that time, these people

5 you've said were the military policemen?

6 A. I could see that they were members of the military police of the

7 Drina Corps.

8 Q. What, precisely, do you remember seeing or reading?

9 A. I can recall exactly reading "military police." As for the rest,

10 I'm not 100 per cent sure.

11 Q. You have always said "Drina Corps." Do you remember why you

12 concluded Drina Corps?

13 A. First of all, because the headquarters of the Drina Corps, I

14 assumed it was in Zvornik, and that's why I always said that that was

15 that.

16 Q. Okay. Let's go back to the guardhouse, when the two military

17 policemen and the lieutenant-colonel come out. Then describe to us what

18 happens.

19 A. They were accompanied by Brano Gojkovic and Aleksandar Cvetkovic,

20 they came out together with him. He drove our vehicle. And Brano said

21 that we were going to follow the vehicle in which these two military

22 policemen and the lieutenant-colonel were.

23 Q. Let me finish up this exhibit. I'm sorry. I of course noticed

24 that as you walked away. We need you just to date it. It's the 4th of

25 May. And put your name on this I think in the -- yeah, down in the

Page 10968

1 right-hand corner is fine.

2 A. The whole name or just my initials?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think initials are fine.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so.

5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]


7 Q. All right. So tell us how it was that you left and who you

8 followed in leaving this area.

9 A. Not long after they came out of that guardhouse, the

10 lieutenant-colonel and two policemen got into an Opel Cadet car. I

11 remember the colour of the vehicle was olive-green. And Brano said we

12 would follow them, and we took the direction of Bijeljina on the

13 Zvornik-Bijeljina road.

14 Q. Do you remember, was there any grey in this colour at all? Can

15 you describe that colour a little bit more?

16 A. When I say "olive-green," that was precisely that

17 olive-green-grey, in fact, like the colour of the uniform that used to be

18 the uniform of the JNA.

19 Q. Do you remember what style car this was, how many doors it had?

20 A. I cannot remember the number of doors exactly, but it was an Opel

21 Cadet.

22 Q. All right. And who led as you left the area?

23 A. The two policemen were up front and the lieutenant-colonel in that

24 car that was ahead of us.

25 Q. Roughly how long did you stay at this little compound?

Page 10969

1 A. Ten, twenty minutes, I can't say exactly. Something like that.

2 Q. Do you remember roughly the time of day it was that you were

3 there?

4 A. In the morning. That's all I can say. I cannot tell you the

5 exact hour.

6 Q. And where did these two vehicles go?

7 A. Well, as I said before, we took the road that leads from Zvornik

8 to Bijeljina.

9 Q. I'm sorry. I forgot to ask you one thing. While you were in that

10 van, did you hear any radio traffic over the Motorola that you remember

11 now, while you were still parked there at the compound?

12 A. Yes. We heard over the radio that the Muslims who had left

13 Srebrenica and who were in the woods surrounding Zvornik had captured some

14 police from Doboj and seized one vehicle.

15 Q. All right. So let's get back to the trip. Where did you -- where

16 did you end up stopping on this trip going towards Bijeljina?

17 A. We stopped at the farm, which in my estimate was halfway between

18 Zvornik and Bijeljina. I cannot say that this is a precise estimate, but

19 that's my estimate.

20 Q. Okay. What did you see when you got to the farm?

21 A. When we got to the farm, I could see it was a farm. I saw a

22 tractor, trailers, agricultural machinery, and there were people in

23 military uniform.

24 Q. How many?

25 A. Not many. Perhaps four, five. I don't know. They were in an

Page 10970

1 office.

2 Q. Where was the office? Can you describe the building?

3 A. The building had one story. It was an old structure. I don't

4 know how to explain. It was a long building, and at the beginning -- at

5 one end, there was an entrance to that office, but I didn't go in.

6 Q. So did the lieutenant-colonel and the military police make it to

7 this farm with you?

8 A. Yes. They brought us there to the farm, and when we arrived, the

9 lieutenant-colonel went into that office. And everybody who was there,

10 who was there before our arrival, left, and only one person remained.

11 Q. You're talking about the men that were in the military uniforms?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then what happened?

14 A. Brano talked to the lieutenant-colonel, and when he came back, he

15 said -- in fact, the lieutenant-colonel came back with him, and they said

16 that in a few minutes buses would start arriving, carrying people from

17 Srebrenica.

18 Q. You said "they said." Do you remember which person said that

19 buses would be starting to arrive?

20 A. If I remember correctly, Brano told us, but I believe the

21 lieutenant-colonel was also involved in that talk.

22 Q. And the people in the uniforms that had previously just left, were

23 you able to make out any patches, insignia, or anything that would

24 indicate to you what unit they belonged to?

25 A. No.

Page 10971

1 Q. Okay. Now, when you were told by Mr. Gojkovic that people would

2 be arriving from Srebrenica in buses, what was the next thing you learned?

3 A. Well, that civilians from Srebrenica would be coming. That's what

4 he said, civilians, and that they were to be killed that day, which to

5 some of us, me included, appeared unbelievable.

6 Q. So what happened then?

7 A. There were all sorts of exchanges among us, and if -- and Brano

8 said, "If you think that they would not shoot you, give me your rifle and

9 stand in the same line with them."

10 Q. Then what happened?

11 A. Shortly after, that lieutenant-colonel and the two policemen got

12 into their car, that same Opel Cadet, and left. I believe they had not

13 yet left the farm when the bus arrived carrying people from Srebrenica.

14 Q. All right. And then what happened?

15 A. When the buses arrived, I could see that there was a driver and

16 two persons in uniform, the uniform of the VRS, who I suppose accompanied

17 the bus, and then Brano and Golijan approached the bus, talked to those

18 two policemen, and said they would bring out the people from the bus in

19 groups, that we should line up and escort those people to the site which

20 they had designated as the site where they would be executed.

21 Q. And did you follow those instructions?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And so tell us what happened.

24 A. Well, they brought out ten persons. We were standing in a line.

25 If I remember well, the first people from that first bus were blindfolded

Page 10972

1 and their hands were tied behind their backs.

2 Q. And then what?

3 A. We took those people -- I can't be precise, but I believe it was

4 100, 200 metres away from the bus, and then we were ordered to shoot at

5 them. They had their backs to us.

6 Q. Who gave you the order to shoot?

7 A. Brano Gojkovic.

8 Q. How many of you were in the execution squad?

9 A. Eight.

10 Q. And what kind of weapons were you shooting with?

11 A. Automatic rifle.

12 Q. And did everyone follow that order?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what happened after those men were killed?

15 A. Well, the same thing happened. They took people out from the bus

16 in groups, group by group, and the second group followed the first one.

17 Groups were of ten, and they were executed.

18 Q. And did you take part in all those executions at that time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And how long did this go on?

21 A. Well, I suppose from 10.00 a.m. until 3.00 or 4.00 p.m. I can't

22 tell you exactly.

23 Q. Did any bus drivers have to get involved in this?

24 A. Well, after several buses had come and gone, some individuals who

25 were there on the farm started drinking, and Brano had this idea that bus

Page 10973

1 drivers could later be witnesses and that they, too, should kill at least

2 one person each.

3 Q. So what happened after Brano's idea?

4 A. One of the bus drivers was given a rifle by Brano, and he had to

5 shoot one person.

6 Q. Did you see any other bus drivers have to shoot anybody?

7 A. No. I know only about that one.

8 Q. Was there a time when any other weapons, besides automatic rifles,

9 were used in this execution?

10 A. Yes. I can't say exactly how much time had elapsed when

11 Aleksandar Cvetkovic said that this execution is proceeding slowly and

12 that they would also start to use the M-84 machine-gun.

13 Q. That's a significantly larger-calibre hand-held machine-gun?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Was that used to execute Muslims?

16 A. Yes. I think it was used on two groups of ten, and then a major

17 quarrel amongst us erupted because that machine-gun was a powerful weapon

18 and it just butchered those people.

19 Q. What do you mean?

20 A. Well, the people did not die. They lay on the ground and begged

21 for someone to come and kill them.

22 Q. Why wouldn't a machine-gun of that size kill them?

23 A. Well, I suppose, because I'm not an expert, it had a larger

24 gunpowder charge, and it went through the body. I don't know; I assume

25 that's it.

Page 10974

1 Q. All right. Did any other troops arrive that day?

2 A. Yes. Early in the afternoon, people from Bratunac came.

3 Q. Now, how did you conclude they were from Bratunac?

4 A. Because Brano said people from Bratunac would be coming. In fact,

5 he recognised people from Bratunac. And because Zoran -- sorry,

6 Aleksandar Cvetkovic recognised some among them. That's how I drew the

7 conclusion.

8 Q. How many of these men arrived?

9 A. Eight or ten.

10 Q. And how were they dressed?

11 A. Most of them were wearing uniforms of the VRS.

12 Q. Did you know what unit they were from?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Was there anything to indicate that any of these men that arrived

15 would have known any of the Muslims?

16 A. Yes. There were some of them who knew some Muslims, and some

17 abused the Muslims because they knew them, and one person I recognised on

18 a video spoke quite normally with a person who used to be the butcher in

19 Srebrenica.

20 Q. Okay. We'll get to that, that person that you recognised, in a

21 minute.

22 When you say these men abused the prisoners, can you describe that

23 in more detail? I'm sorry to take us through all that, but it's

24 important.

25 A. What do you want to know? How they abused them?

Page 10975

1 Q. Yes. Just describe what you mean by "abuse."

2 A. Well, they beat them with their rifle-butts. Some even used some

3 metal bars they found on the farm. Kicked them, punched them, cursed

4 them.

5 Q. And when did this -- the killing end at the farm that day, roughly

6 what time?

7 A. It was perhaps 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon. I can't remember

8 exactly.

9 Q. Besides those men from Bratunac, and let me just ask this,

10 anything from their uniforms that you could -- give you any indication

11 where they were from, what unit?

12 A. Well, to be quite honest, I didn't feel at all like looking at

13 them to see what unit they belonged to. I wasn't interested in that

14 because something much worse was happening.

15 Q. Okay. Besides these men from Bratunac arriving, did anyone else

16 arrive that day?

17 A. Well, towards the end, that lieutenant-colonel came and the two

18 other men who had brought us to that farm in the first place.

19 Q. The ones you described as military policemen?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And at about what time did the lieutenant-colonel and the two

22 military policemen return?

23 A. In the afternoon. I don't think the last bus had been finished

24 yet, but that last bus was being done by those people from Bratunac. I

25 already said it could have been 3.00 or 4.00, so sometime around that.

Page 10976

1 Q. All right. I'm going to go back to the man with the bandana and

2 show you photos you've seen before.

3 If we could go to 65 ter number 1919, which is a video still.

4 All right. Now, this is not a good photograph, but did you see a

5 much clearer picture of this person when you saw the video?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recognise anyone in this photograph that you saw taking

8 part in the killings at Branjevo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I think -- can you just take the pen, if you could, and just mark

11 an X over the person's head, just so it's absolutely clear which person

12 we're talking about?

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. And if you could just initial and date this one as well. Again,

15 it's the 4th of May.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. All right. Now, let's go to the other one, which is 1918.

18 JUDGE KWON: Any idea when and where was this picture taken?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. This is on -- this is Potocari,

20 as they're walking into Potocari on the 12th. It's part of the trial

21 video.

22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Can the witness tell us the name of the person he's

24 marked or indicated?


Page 10977

1 Q. Do you know this person's name?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, go ahead.


5 Q. Okay. Now, looking at this photograph, there's a person on the

6 far left of the screen with a bandana. Is this the same person, as far as

7 your recognition is, as the one you saw in the previous photo?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And, again, so this was one of the men at the Branjevo Farm taking

10 part in the executions?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And this was one of the men from -- that you've identified as

13 being from Bratunac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. I want to now go to 65 ter 1799. This is an aerial

16 image that -- I want the unmarked version, if we can. Hold on.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, I think while the witness has used the

18 marked version over the years, it's probably better that we use an

19 unmarked version for these purposes, and if we could just put this on the

20 ELMO.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: While that is being done, is there any objection

22 from any of the Defence teams on using the other photo which has markings

23 on it already and which the witness is familiar with?

24 Mr. Ostojic.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 10978

1 Not with respect to specifically what you said, but we do have an

2 outstanding objection with respect to the markings on the photograph on

3 the top identifying specifically, and that issue still hasn't been

4 resolved as to who put that on the photograph. But with this witness, I

5 don't think it's necessary to repeat that objection.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And in relation to the other issue that

7 Mr. Ostojic has raised, I think it's high time you come back with a

8 stipulation or an agreement so that we can have the evidence of Mr. Ruez

9 as soon as possible.

10 Thank you.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think there's so many markings on that one with

12 the yellow, it might be just easier --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Up to you, Mr. McCloskey. I'm not going to

14 interfere in that.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can just -- let's try with the ELMO, and if

16 we could zero in on that just a little bit more. Okay, that's fine.

17 Q. Do you recognise this -- well, this place, first of all?

18 A. I do, but this is an aerial photograph, so -- but I do recognise

19 the place, yes.

20 Q. If you think you can, could you -- she'll give you a pen, and I

21 think we can mark right on this, right on this photograph. Can you mark

22 the area where the first bus with Muslims in it pulled up?

23 A. What kind of a mark should I make?

24 Q. If you can, just a rectangular, like a bus as if, you know, we

25 were putting it there. I know it's hard to get the scale, but ...

Page 10979

1 A. [Marks]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And if he could mark 1B on top of that line, please.

3 A. [Marks]


5 Q. Okay. The other buses that arrived throughout the day, did they

6 park in roughly the same place?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And can you -- if you can tell, can you mark with an X where the

9 first group of prisoners were taken to be shot?

10 And I think we need -- we may need to pull out a bit from this

11 close-up shot. Okay, okay.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. All right. You've made an X there. And you've described a

14 building where soldiers were -- the lieutenant-colonel went in. Can you

15 make out from this shot which building that was? Only if you can.

16 A. [Marks]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Could he put an O next to that line, please, or just

18 below.

19 A. [Marks]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think if we can just get an initial and a

22 date, it's break time.

23 A. [Marks]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

25 We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

Page 10980

1 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 If we could bring up 65 ter 2804.

6 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, you may recall yesterday we spoke briefly of

7 insignias, VRS insignias, and I showed you a grouping of three insignias

8 that had just been pulled up from the internet, and you -- do you recall

9 identifying those insignias for us?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. And you saw our -- the interpreter wrote your answers

12 to the questions relating to these insignias; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you start with -- first of all, do you recognise those

15 insignias on this document?

16 A. Yes. I just asked that the smaller insignia above the little

17 plaques be crossed out.

18 Q. Okay. And why was that?

19 A. Because I wasn't sure. I know that these were small metal

20 plaques, and I know the first one is major, the second one is

21 lieutenant-colonel and the third one is colonel, but the insignia above, I

22 was not familiar with. But then later I tried to see in a photo, and I

23 could see that generals used these insignia.

24 Q. So as far as you know, those circular things above these ranks

25 were not used at the time in July, 1995 for these ranks?

Page 10981

1 A. No. What I know is that on the 16th, in the morning, when you

2 asked me, "How could you tell he was a lieutenant-colonel," I answered

3 that there was this insignia in the middle indicating that he was a

4 lieutenant-colonel.

5 Q. Where was the insignia that you saw on this lieutenant-colonel?

6 A. It was on his left side, on the military blouse, shirt he was

7 wearing that day.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. On the pocket.

10 Q. All right. And to be clear, there was no little, round insignia

11 that you saw on his shirt at the time; that's why there's an X through

12 this particular one; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. And I'm going to jump out of time just to finish the

15 exhibits. There are some still photographs, 65 ter 1975, and these are

16 stills taken from the video of a ceremony in Vlasenica, the Court may

17 remember. It's 65 ter 2034. And if you could just look at these stills

18 briefly.

19 Now, we see on this exhibit four photographs. Do you recognise

20 anyone or any members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in any of those four

21 photographs?

22 A. Yes. On A, B and C, I recognise -- I recognise persons from the

23 10th Sabotage Detachment.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Which platoon, the Bijeljina or the Vlasenica one?

25 A. Soldiers from both platoons are there, from Bijeljina and

Page 10982

1 Vlasenica.


3 Q. Do you recall being at a ceremony where people were standing like

4 this, I believe, in the late 1995?

5 A. No. We went there, I myself and some other people from Bijeljina.

6 Q. All right. So let's go back --

7 JUDGE PROST: Sorry, Mr. McCloskey. Just before you showed those

8 photos, you mentioned two 65 ter numbers, and I just wanted to confirm

9 which one that was. You said 1975 and then you said 2034.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. 1975 are the stills, and they were taken

11 from this video of 2034.

12 JUDGE PROST: Okay, thank you.


14 Q. Okay. Let's go back briefly to the Branjevo Farm, and I believe

15 you said at the end of -- near the end of the day, the lieutenant-colonel

16 returned. Can you tell us what happened when the lieutenant-colonel

17 returned with the two military policemen?

18 A. When he returned, he immediately started saying that in Pilica

19 there is a cultural hall, Dom Kulture, and that there were 500 people

20 there from Srebrenica who were trying to break down the door and who were

21 trying to escape from there, and he said that we needed to go there and

22 execute those people. I, however, and some other people from my unit

23 refused to do that, but the people that came from Bratunac that day, they

24 went with the lieutenant-colonel and the two policemen.

25 Q. And do you remember what vehicles they left in?

Page 10983

1 A. I think that it was the same vehicle that the lieutenant-colonel

2 came in, the Opel Cadet. I'm not sure, though. The people from Bratunac

3 came in a Tam, T-a-m, van, I think, but I'm not quite sure.

4 Q. And when that group left the farm, what did your group do?

5 A. Nothing. We prepared our weapons, ammunition. We put that in the

6 van. And Brano said that the lieutenant-colonel said that we were to meet

7 at the bar in Pilica, a coffee bar in Pilica.

8 Q. How many Muslim men do you estimate were killed that day at the

9 Branjevo Farm?

10 A. According to my estimate, between 1.000 and 1.200.

11 Q. How do you make that estimate?

12 A. Based on what I already told you. I'm not quite sure, but it was

13 based on the buses that were arriving. That's how I was able to come to a

14 conclusion. I don't know exactly.

15 Q. Do you have a rough number of buses that you recall?

16 A. I don't know exactly, but in my previous testimony and also in my

17 case as well, from 15 to 20, but no one can know how many exactly and

18 what.

19 Q. All right. And did you go to Pilica with your group?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you know roughly what time of day it is that you finally

22 leave that farm and go over to Pilica?

23 A. It was after noon, maybe 3.00, 4.00, 4.00.

24 Q. And when you drove into the area of Pilica, tell us what you saw.

25 A. When we arrived in front of the coffee bar in Pilica, across the

Page 10984

1 road from the coffee bar was the cultural hall, and between the cultural

2 hall and the coffee bar, the road linking Zvornik and Bijeljina passed,

3 and you could see several bodies. I don't know for sure how many, but

4 there were bodies in front of the cultural hall.

5 Q. And where did you go?

6 A. We went where Brano told us that the lieutenant-colonel was

7 supposed to come to meet us. We went to the coffee bar.

8 Q. And what did you see?

9 A. How do you mean, what did we see? In the bar or what I saw of

10 what was happening?

11 Q. Just tell us what you saw, you know, everywhere. Just tell us

12 what you saw as it was happening both in the bar or elsewhere.

13 A. Like I already said, it was possible to see from the road where we

14 turned off to go to the coffee bar, and just there was the cultural hall,

15 and you could see bodies in front of the cultural hall already.

16 Also, there was a check-point of the civilian police of Republika

17 Srpska there. Vehicles were passing normally there. There was civilian

18 houses around. There were people. You could hear firing and explosions

19 from the direction of the hall. There were no people in the coffee bar.

20 It was empty. Just the people who worked there.

21 Q. At the police check-point, did you see any civilian police

22 officers?

23 A. No. They did not wear civilian clothing, but they were in blue

24 camouflage uniforms, which I knew was a uniform of the Republika Srpska

25 MUP.

Page 10985

1 Q. And can you tell us how many of these MUP in blue uniforms you

2 saw?

3 A. I cannot remember exactly, but I think two or three policemen.

4 Q. Do you recall if they were armed with any weapons?

5 A. Yes. They had automatic rifles and pistols, from what I can

6 remember.

7 Q. You said you could hear shooting and explosions from the direction

8 of the cultural centre. Did you see any soldiers around the cultural

9 centre, outside the cultural centre?

10 A. At that point, I didn't see the main entrance to the cultural

11 centre, I couldn't, but the side entrance was where I could see the bodies

12 lying around. I don't recall seeing soldiers around the bodies, but I did

13 hear shooting and explosions.

14 Q. And did you go into the coffee bar?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And tell us what happened in the coffee bar, who you saw, or just

17 continue to --

18 A. Nothing happened. When you entered the coffee bar, to the right

19 there was a small room. That's where Brano -- and I can't remember who

20 else, but I know Brano went in, and Franc Kos and I sat -- immediately as

21 you come in to the left, we sat near the door, and they went over there

22 and they talked with the lieutenant-colonel. Not long after that, this

23 person from Bratunac came, the one that I recognised on the photographs

24 here today, that I indicated on the photographs, and he said that

25 everything was finished.

Page 10986

1 Q. You're talking about the person with the bandana on his head?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And who, if anyone, did he say, "Everything is finished," to?

4 A. He said it. I mean, we could all hear it. I assume that he was

5 addressing the lieutenant-colonel.

6 Q. What was the lieutenant-colonel doing?

7 A. Nothing. He was sitting there and talking with Brano and the

8 other people. I think they were drinking Sljivovica. I don't know

9 exactly. I think so. And finally at the end, when we were already

10 supposed to leave, because some people wanted to go home, I remember well

11 that the lieutenant-colonel stood up and said, "Who remained alive has

12 remained alive."

13 Q. Do you know what he meant by that or why he said that?

14 A. Probably I'm thinking of what had happened that day, if somebody,

15 whoever, remained alive, remained alive. That's my opinion. I don't know

16 exactly.

17 Q. You have been shown many photographs over the years. Some, you've

18 recognised people, as you've testified to. Have you ever seen a

19 photograph where you have recognised the lieutenant-colonel?

20 A. Once I thought I recognised him, and then after considerable

21 thought, I wasn't sure, I couldn't be sure.

22 Q. Okay. What happened after the lieutenant-colonel made this

23 comment?

24 A. We returned to Vlasenica, and when we arrived at the base in

25 Vlasenica, the one that was in Dragosevac, we were told that we should

Page 10987

1 pack and that the Bijeljina platoon was returning to Bijeljina. And

2 that's what happened.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't have any further questions, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. McCloskey.

5 On my list, I have all the Defence teams, with the exception of

6 the Gvero Defence team, who wish to cross-examine this witness.

7 MR. JOSSE: We probably will have some questions later on, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, thank you. So that changes the scenario

10 straightaway. And for the record, since I previously mentioned that you

11 were not here, Mr. Josse, now I put it on the record that you are present.

12 I have the Popovic Defence team who wish one hour, who would last

13 for one hour?

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honours, we will not cross-examine this

15 witness at all.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

17 The Beara, Nikolic and Milotic and Pandurevic teams have each

18 asked for 30 minutes.

19 Mr. Ostojic?

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. During the break, I was

21 able to come with my learned friend from the Prosecution, and we're

22 working on a couple of stipulations for the Court and for this case. I'd

23 rather not specifically identify it in front of the witness, with all due

24 respect to him.

25 I think, and I've consulted with several -- or a couple members of

Page 10988

1 our team, if at all possible, with the Court's indulgence, we would like

2 to perhaps start the cross-examination on Monday, and we may short circuit

3 it. We could almost promise that indeed this witness will be completed on

4 Monday, depending again, and I think we're very close to reaching this

5 stipulation with my learned friend, as I said.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Before we comment on that, is there

7 any -- thank you, Mr. Ostojic -- any other Defence team that is in a

8 position or wishes to start with the cross-examination today?

9 I still have the Borovcanin Defence team have asked for 15

10 minutes.

11 Mr. Stojanovic.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We planned

13 for 15 minutes for caution's sake, but in view of the witness's testimony

14 today, we will not be questioning the witness.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

16 The Nikolic Defence team? This is going to be you or Mr. Bourgon?

17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] It will be me, Your Honours. I can

18 start with my cross-examination today, and perhaps I can even finish.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. And then -- I thank you so much, Madam

20 Nikolic.

21 Could you please proceed.

22 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir.

24 A. Good day.

25 Q. I'm going to try today, during this time that we have left, to

Page 10989

1 complete my cross-examination. I would just like to ask you several

2 questions about the soldier with the bandana and about the group that came

3 from Bratunac and joined you.

4 A. Very well.

5 Q. On the 16th of July, 1995, when you came to Branjevo, already then

6 you saw that man, and his face later appeared in front of the cultural

7 hall and in the coffee bar, so that you managed to actually identify him

8 even ten years later?

9 A. Not ten years later. I identified him in 1996 when I was here in

10 detention. On television, on British television, the BBC broadcast some

11 footage, and I recognised him then.

12 Q. Did you already then have information that he was a member of the

13 Panthers Unit?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you learn about that during meetings with the Prosecutor's

16 office in the course of 2002 and 2004, when you were being interviewed by

17 investigators?

18 A. I recall having a conversation about the Panthers unit, and I know

19 that that unit was in Bijeljina. They were in the barracks next to ours.

20 We were in one hut and they were in the hut next to us in Bijeljina. I

21 remember that we talked about these people. I'm not sure exactly, but if

22 it says there that we did that, then I agree that we did talk about them

23 then.

24 Q. Do you remember if, on the 30th of January, 2004, during one of

25 your interviews with the Prosecution, when a series of stills were shown

Page 10990

1 to you of Panther members other than this person, whose name I do not wish

2 to mention in public session, but perhaps the others I can mention in

3 public session since they are not connected to this witness. Gojko Simic,

4 Rajko Tomic, Miodrag Grujicic were there?

5 A. These names don't mean anything to me.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... your

7 microphone. Give me the last couple of lines so that I redact them,

8 please, or block transmission.

9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Chamber and to

10 the witness, please. I apologise.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... exactly your

12 fault entirely, Ms. Nikolic, because the witness jumped straight with his

13 answer before you had even finished.

14 So, Mr. Erdemovic, it's very important that you allow a short

15 pause between question and answer, because otherwise, if there's this

16 overlapping, your voice can be heard, and we are trying to protect you as

17 much as we can. So please observe this golden rule while we proceed.

18 Yes, Madam Nikolic. Perhaps you can repeat your question.

19 Anyway, he has answered it. He says, "These names don't mean

20 anything to me." Your next question, then.

21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Could the witness please be shown Defence exhibit 1D285. We have

23 the B/C/S and the English version on e-court.

24 Q. Sir, when both versions appear on the screen, could you please

25 look at the second paragraph of this document. It's a report of the

Page 10991

1 Prosecution with the meeting they had with you on the 30th of January, so

2 it's exhibit 1D285 of the 30th of January, 2004.

3 Let me ask you to look at paragraph 2. A sentence in the middle

4 begins:

5 "Of the three of them, the following is known:"

6 Read the text where these three names are mentioned. Do you

7 remember this meeting with the Prosecution?

8 A. I don't remember this document. And as I've already said, these

9 names mean nothing to me.

10 Q. I understand, but you remember the meeting and you remember that

11 certain photographs were shown to you?

12 A. I'll tell you very sincerely, I had too many meetings and I cannot

13 remember every one individually.

14 Q. Do you have any knowledge or have you ever heard that the Panther

15 unit was at that time in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps?

16 A. I was not aware of that.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you proceed, Ms. Nikolic. Just

18 for clarity's sake, what we have on the screen is not a transcript of the

19 interview, but an information report, so I think you need to allow for the

20 possibility that parts of the second paragraph that you read out from

21 could be the statement of the person drawing up the information report and

22 not necessarily the statement of the witness. I don't want to call you to

23 any cause, Mr. McCloskey, but I suppose you would agree with me.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's correct, and I think Ms. Nikolic

25 understands that.

Page 10992

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed.

2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is a report

3 of the investigator. Maybe I used the wrong word when I tried to describe

4 it, but it is a report of the investigator concerning a meeting with this

5 witness.

6 Q. I have only one question to ask of you. Did you have the

7 impression that this soldier with the bandana was, in a way, the leader of

8 that group from Bratunac?

9 A. How shall I put this? I didn't see him issue orders to the

10 others, but he was always around when something was going on. And from

11 the moment when he came up into -- to the lieutenant-colonel in the coffee

12 bar and told him that everything is finished, it was my impression.

13 Q. What I want to know is when you saw that photograph from Potocari

14 of a group of soldiers with that man in the bandana, they were on the 14th

15 and 15th, in Potocari on the 16th, in Branjevo, near the culture hall in

16 Pilica, did you know that these other men were in other locations where

17 things happened?

18 A. No, I had no knowledge of that. I didn't contact with them at

19 all, and he stuck in my mind because he wore that uniform of the US Army

20 and the bandana, and that's why I remember him but not the others.

21 Q. I just want to ask you one more question concerning the vehicle

22 that the lieutenant-colonel drove in. You testified about that today.

23 You said that it was an Opel Cadet vehicle. On the 6th of November, 1996,

24 the same question was asked of you, and I will, if you don't mind, read

25 that passage from the interview to refresh your memory.

Page 10993

1 You were asked:

2 "What kind of vehicle did the lieutenant-colonel drive?"

3 You answered:

4 "I told you that Opel --"

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down.

6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I will have to repeat

7 the question. In fact, I will read that text more slowly.

8 Q. After the question about the vehicle, your answer was:

9 "As for the type, I told you Cadet, the shorter one with a cut-off

10 boot."

11 Your answer was as I just read. The next question asked of you by

12 Jean Rene Ruez is like this:

13 "Coupe, what colour?"

14 And you answered:

15 "Kind of dirty-brownish colour like this bin over here."

16 Did this refresh your memory?

17 A. Yes. The first thing I said was "Cadet," but that vehicle, when

18 it first appeared in the former Yugoslavia, everybody called it Suza,

19 which means tear, because it had the shape of a tear. I remember that,

20 and I remember pointing at the waste bin that was in the room where I was

21 being questioned, and I meant the drab olive-green-grey colour.

22 Q. And the model was coupe?

23 A. Yes, Opel Cadet.

24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank

25 you, sir. I have no further question.

Page 10994

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if it's worth the while of starting

2 another cross-examination, but let me conclude the exercise first.

3 So from Mr. Ostojic, we've heard. Ms. Nikolic has concluded

4 hers. Madame Fauveau, will you be cross-examining this witness? How much

5 time would you require?

6 Mr. Petrusic.

7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we had envisaged 30

8 minutes, but in view of the testimony of this witness so far, we will take

9 less. We can start, maybe we can even finish, but I cannot be sure that

10 we will finish before the end of this day. I have just about ten

11 questions, but the length also depends on the answers. It is not certain

12 that I will finish.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And Mr. Haynes or Mr. Sarapa? I don't

14 know who will be cross-examining this witness.

15 MR. HAYNES: I think it's unlikely we'll have any

16 cross-examination for this witness, but I welcome the opportunity of

17 reflecting upon that position.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

19 So, Mr. Petrusic, I suggest you start.

20 Mr. Josse already said that he will be cross-examining, probably,

21 but I don't know whether he wishes to do so today or Monday.

22 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Krgovic, in fact, is going to do the

23 cross-examination for our team. Fifteen minutes, he tells me.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, 15 minutes is too much for today. So I

25 suggest, Mr. Petrusic, you could start now and see where we get or how far

Page 10995

1 we get, and then you'll continue on Monday.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erdemovic, I appear here for General Miletic

4 in this case, and as I said, I will have only a couple of questions for

5 you.

6 Towards the end of 1993, do you know that in the Territory of the

7 Federation, that is, in the place where you lived, Tuzla, armed conflict

8 was ongoing between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Croatian

9 Defence Council, the HVO?

10 A. End 1993, that's when I moved to Republika Srpska, in November

11 1993, and I cannot say that there was fighting, but the relations between

12 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO were very tense. However,

13 conflict had already started in central Bosnia, as far as I know.

14 Q. In that tense situation, you were arrested by the Croatian Defence

15 Council as you were trying to transport some Serb civilians to the

16 territory of Republika Srpska?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You told us today that you were first captured -- or rather you

19 were first kept in detention by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

20 then, I quote: "I was moved to a prison held by the HVO."

21 A. I will try to explain the sequence.

22 I was captured on Mount Majevica by the HVO. They took me and one

23 of my colleagues who was accompanying me. They just captured us and held

24 us overnight in their command headquarters, which was on Mount Majevica.

25 And if I remember well, they got orders from the headquarters in Tuzla

Page 10996

1 that the HVO should turn us over for interrogation to the Army of Bosnia

2 and Herzegovina.

3 Q. So that coincided with the time when, to say the least, there was

4 pronounced tension between the HVO and the BH Army, if not open conflict?

5 A. That's -- that's about it, yes. You could put it that way.

6 Q. From what I understand of positions in Majevica, they were held by

7 the HVO at the time.

8 A. Yes, in one part of Mount Majevica, not all of it.

9 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, I would now like to move to your involvement in the

10 segment referred to as Srebrenica and your arrival in the area.

11 Those two platoons that arrived, one from Bijeljina and another

12 from Vlasenica, had in total between 30 and 40 men?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You have explained that you had four types of uniform. On that

15 day you came to Bijeljina and on to Bratunac and Srebrenica in a black

16 camouflage uniform. What about the rest of the men, the 30 or 40 of them,

17 did they come in the same uniform?

18 A. No. Most of us wore black uniforms, but many others, I cannot

19 tell you exactly how many -- how do I say it? In uniforms of the VRS, and

20 one person that I showed you on the picture, Stanko Savanovic, wore a

21 uniform that we called NATO uniform. It was predominantly the US Army

22 uniform.

23 Q. If I am not mistaken, you designated Stanko Savanovic with number

24 2 on the photograph shown you by the Prosecutor on 1981. Is he the one

25 you said had an American uniform?

Page 10997

1 A. No. The person I claim is Stanko Savanovic is number 3.

2 JUDGE KWON: It was number 3. I confirm.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have to stop here for today,

4 Mr. Petrusic, because it's past the hour.

5 And we will reconvene Monday at 9.00 in the morning.

6 Mr. Erdemovic, between now and Monday, you are not to discuss or

7 allow anyone to discuss with you the substance of what you are testifying

8 about. Is that clear? I think you should be familiar with this rule.

9 And you are required to observe it to the maximum.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 Have a nice weekend, everyone.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1:46 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of May,

15 2007, at 9.00 a.m.