Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11427

1 Monday, 14 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you all.

7 Madam Registrar, could you kindly call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record all the accused are

11 here. From the Defence teams, I notice the absence only of Mr. Haynes.

12 The Prosecution is represented by Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Vanderpuye. The

13 witness is already in the courtroom.

14 Let me first make a statement explaining the reason why we are

15 starting 40 minutes late. The reason is that when we came here just

16 before 9.00 to start the sitting, we were informed that there was a

17 technical problem as a result of which the accused, amongst others,

18 wouldn't have been able to follow the proceedings on the monitor. So it

19 was a technical problem that required some time to get fixed. I'm told

20 that it is now fixed, and therefore we can proceed.

21 Yes. Good morning to you, Witness.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back. I hope you've had a good rest.

24 Last Friday, we finished with your examination-in-chief and Mr. Zivanovic

25 had just started his cross-examination. Today we will continue with it

Page 11428

1 and then we see who else wishes to cross-examine you. I suspect that

2 almost everyone will.

3 Mr. Zivanovic, good morning to you. You may continue from where

4 you left last time.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Thank you.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]

9 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I have just a couple of more questions

10 for you. In fact, I'm going to ask you for some clarifications. On

11 Friday, when you last testified here, while you were explaining some

12 differences between what you were saying on Friday and your earlier

13 interviews, you emphasised that you were speaking under oath here. I

14 wanted to ask you if that was the reason why you said here the things that

15 you were sure about, whereas in earlier interviews, you were not under

16 oath and you didn't feel the same obligation as you feel before the Court

17 now.

18 A. I don't know what you mean specifically when saying that I said

19 something on Friday.

20 Q. On Friday, I asked you about the description of that one person,

21 one of the two that you described, and I asked you specifically about the

22 mustache. That is what I'm talking about, because I relied mainly on

23 that, and I see that you answered on Friday, as I quoted before, "I'm

24 speaking under oath here," et cetera. Does that explain the differences

25 between what you said on Friday and what you said in earlier interviews?

Page 11429

1 A. Mr. Zivanovic, back then, and today, I still don't know who the

2 people were who had come down there. If I knew, I would say publicly

3 before everyone. I don't want to speculate and I don't want to falsely

4 accuse anyone. All that I can say about those men, I have already said in

5 that description, and I stand behind that. The context in which I

6 mentioned those two names is that after those events, several years later,

7 when I saw certain photographs, my comment was that there was a certain

8 resemblance. Beyond that, I didn't say anything in interviews to the

9 Prosecutor.

10 Q. I didn't ask you about those names. Maybe you didn't understand

11 me.

12 A. You insist on the mustache. I told you that I stand behind the

13 description I gave of the first person, but as far as the second person is

14 concerned, I cannot be sure that he had a mustache.

15 Q. Would that then be your answer to my next question, also seeking

16 clarification of what you said on Friday? You said, "I am not 1 million

17 per cent sure." In our language, it could be understood that you were not

18 a million per cent sure but you are a hundred per cent sure. To avoid any

19 ambiguity, does that mean, when you say that, "I'm not sure a person had a

20 mustache," does it mean you're not sure, you cannot confirm, be it million

21 or 100 per cent?

22 A. That means I can't confirm.

23 Q. Just one more question. In your interviews, you said that when

24 the convoy arrived carrying those prisoners, you said the convoy consisted

25 of about ten vehicles, mainly buses with one or two trucks. You said in

Page 11430

1 the interviews that approximately a half of the people were unloaded from

2 the vehicles and taken inside the school, whereas the other half spent the

3 night in buses and was driven somewhere else in the morning. Can you

4 confirm that?

5 A. Yes. I'm almost convinced that is the way it was.

6 Q. I have no more questions, Your Honour. Thank you, Witness.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

8 Mr. Meek, appearing for Colonel Beara, will go next.

9 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:

11 Q. Good morning, Witness. How are you?

12 A. Good morning. I'm fine, thank you for asking.

13 Q. Witness, we have evidence that some witnesses for the OTP, who are

14 coming to testify in this Chamber, in this case, were told to lie by

15 Dragan Obrenovic before they gave their statements to the OTP

16 investigators. And I want to ask you, sir, did you have any conversations

17 with anyone, including Dragan Obrenovic, either before you gave your first

18 statement or before you gave your second statement?

19 A. I was not in touch with Mr. Obrenovic since the day he was

20 arrested. As for the attitude of the OTP towards me, although I had

21 certain misgivings before I came here, I have a good memory of my contacts

22 with the OTP and I think that they were very decent towards me, before and

23 during my testimony.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, prior to Mr. Obrenovic being arrested, did you

25 speak with him concerning the events around the middle of July, of which

Page 11431

1 you've testified here today and Friday?

2 A. No. We never uttered a word about these events.

3 Q. Sir, besides Mr. Obrenovic, that was on my part an example, did

4 you speak with any other person or persons concerning what you should or

5 should not tell the Office of the Prosecutor, either before the first

6 interview or before the second interview, sir?

7 A. No. The only conversation I had on that topic was at the command

8 of the battalion after the commander returned from the field. I believe

9 it was on the 23rd of July, when we familiarised him with the facts

10 concerning our participation in the event, and I have some notes about it

11 in my diary, which is in the possession of the office of the Prosecutor,

12 but they didn't find anything to ask me about that.

13 Q. Now, just a little earlier here, you testified that you have good

14 memories of your contact with the OTP and that they were very decent

15 towards you. Do you recall that, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember the end of your second interview, you seemed a

18 little upset with the OTP and you couldn't understand why it was that they

19 told you to lie if someone contacted you about what you were speaking

20 about and they told you, "Should you -- should anyone contact you, tell

21 them we spoke about 1992," and you couldn't understand why they were

22 telling you to lie. Do you remember that, sir?

23 A. At the very end of the interview, indeed, we had a sort of

24 misunderstanding. After the first interview that took place in my home

25 they told me that if someone asks me what we had talked about, I should

Page 11432

1 say we had discussed events from 1992, and I kind of opposed that,

2 saying, "Why would I lie about this?" Because I didn't know what the

3 reason would be, since I didn't participate in events of 1992 in the first

4 place.

5 Q. And so you still stand by your testimony this morning that you

6 have good memories of the OTP interviews and they treated you fairly, even

7 though they told to you lie if someone asked you about what you were

8 speaking about? Is that my understanding, sir?

9 A. Excepting that misunderstanding and maybe a small misunderstanding

10 about my diary, which I have given them and from which they copied the

11 page that was of interest to them, during proofing a couple of days ago, I

12 asked them if they would return that diary to me, because it was a fond

13 memory of that wartime. Somebody answered that they would not. Setting

14 aside those two misunderstandings, I have really nothing bad to say.

15 Q. And speaking of your diary, you made that diary, did you not, in

16 order to remember the events that you went through?

17 A. Yes. That's my diary, which was not always up to date, but it

18 contains some significant things, and there are a couple of sentences

19 linked to the event that I'm testifying to.

20 Q. Now, when you say it's not completely up-to-date, do you mean that

21 it wasn't kept in chronological order insofar as you didn't -- you didn't

22 regularly write the events which you experienced down immediately, or

23 sometimes you did and sometimes you didn't?

24 A. At times when things were more or less normal, I didn't write

25 anything down. And when I was on duty in my shift, I would enter

Page 11433

1 everything that seemed interesting to me.

2 Q. It's true, sir, that not only would you write down everything that

3 seemed interesting to you; you also wrote down, as correctly as you

4 remembered, the truth of the events which you experienced. Am I correct?

5 A. Everything that is written in that diary is completely true.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness.

7 Now, do you recall writing in your diary, which, for the record,

8 is 65 ter, Prosecution 65 ter number -- I don't have a ter number on it.

9 I've got it as an attachment to the OTP interview dated 10 March 2003, a

10 notebook containing a diary for the year 1991 and handwritten notes. But

11 I have an ERN number; the B/C/S version starts at 0327-1037 to 1143 in my

12 copy from the OTP. The English is 0327-1046 to 1049. Could we bring that

13 up on the screen, please?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

15 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?

16 MR. VANDERPUYE: I just thought I could be a little bit helpful to

17 Mr. Meek. The diary is designated P02814 for the record.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

19 MR. MEEK: Thank you. I would like to have the English -- the

20 English be page 4 of 5 with ending number ERN 1049. Alongside that, the

21 B/C/S version would be -- and I have it as 1048, which frankly doesn't

22 seem to line up with what I have that the OTP sent. And -- yes, that

23 would be correct. On the B/C/S.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's on the screen now. I have it.

25 MR. MEEK: Could you please go back one page on that, first, on

Page 11434

1 the B/C/S, 1047? Then on the left side, if you wouldn't mind, it would

2 actually be the English version would be 1049 ending ERN number. Scroll

3 down, please. No. It's not the correct one. Yes, the page before in the

4 English. I still need one more page forward. I'm sorry, previously to

5 that one on the English. Scroll down, please. Here we go.

6 Q. Now, Witness, you notice that you have written in this diary --

7 you have entries on this page, I believe, starting at the 10th day of July

8 1995, correct? In the B/C/S version?

9 A. At the top.

10 Q. Yes, the top. Yes, sir. I'm just curious about the date. Is

11 that correct? 10th day of July 1995, top, in the diary on that page,

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the next entry seems to be the 6th day -- or 20th day of June

15 1995; is that correct?

16 A. As I said, it's possible that after returning from leave at home,

17 I leafed through the logbook of the duty officer at the battalion command,

18 and I took things down that seemed interesting, although it was covering a

19 period of over a month or so.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness. And I'm not concerned, I just want the dates.

21 I want to verify that. The next date you went to would have been the 2nd

22 day of June -- 20th day of June 1995, yes or no?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The next date, yes or no, was the 2nd day of July, correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11435

1 Q. Yes or no, the next date was the 4th of July 1995, correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The next date is the 14th of July 1995, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And I believe that on that date, you just wrote that "an order

6 arrived to bring up manpower level to 100 per cent and to form one reserve

7 platoon after the escalation of the conflict in Srebrenica. Our lines are

8 still stable and there are no provocations." That's your entry, correct?

9 Yes or no.

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Now, if we could turn to the next page in B/C/S? For the record,

12 I believe we have to skip almost two pages in the English to page 4 of --

13 can we just scroll up on the B/C/S portion, please? Thank you. One more

14 page on English, please. There we go.

15 Now, witness, after that, we go on down and -- could you scroll

16 down a little bit so we can see the very top of the B/C/S page? Then we

17 go -- and again, I'll tell you that I believe in the B/C/S version it may

18 be the very next page, which I think it is, you went to the 9th day of

19 August, correct? Yes or no.

20 A. In the top part, yes.

21 Q. Yes, sir. And then the next day would have been the 19th or the

22 12th day of August, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The next date being the 17th of August, correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11436

1 Q. And after that, the 19th of August, correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then we have the 21st day of August, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Then we go -- then the next date is the 30th day of August,

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Again, all of 1995?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then after that we have another notation for the 14th of July,

11 and actually you say on Friday, 14.07 for the 14th day, the Friday, that's

12 your next entry; correct?

13 A. It's not visible on my screen. It should be scrolled up a little.

14 Q. I apologise for that. There you go.

15 A. I see it now.

16 Q. Okay. And again, for that entry, you put down that on Friday, 14

17 July, "A group of Muslims was brought to Kula who were captured in

18 Srebrenica where they stayed until 16 July."

19 Am I correct, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You note after that a group from Srebrenica returned to the front

22 line on 20th day of July 1995, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You then note that, "the commander returned to the battalion on 23

25 July. On this date, we had a command meeting and we visited all front

Page 11437

1 lines."

2 Is that correct? That's the end of that entry.

3 A. I don't think there is anything more.

4 Q. And again, not to belabour the point, but you've already testified

5 under oath today that everything you put in there, even though it may be

6 out of order or not being sequential, was true. I am correct on that, am

7 I, sir?

8 A. Yes. I stand by the accuracy of everything that's written here.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Two further questions and I think I'll be

10 finished, sir. One is, you will agree that nowhere in this diary of yours

11 did you ever, even one time, mention on the 14th day of July of 1995,

12 these two officers who you have testified you observed for the first and

13 last time?

14 A. I think I've answered all the questions about that a couple of

15 moments ago and anything I might say in addition would be superfluous.

16 Q. All right. Now, sir, is it true that the OTP, during your

17 proofing session, did not show you a photo lineup in order for you to

18 identify any individual?

19 A. They did not show me during proofing any photographs.

20 Q. That leads me to one other question, sir. I just want to confirm

21 on Friday, upon questioning by the honourable Judge Agius, you indicated

22 that you had never been shown any photographs by the Office of the

23 Prosecutor during your interviews, and I'm going to add any other time off

24 the record on those interviews or any time. That's true, isn't it?

25 A. No. The Prosecutor's Office never showed me any photos

Page 11438

1 whatsoever.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 MR. MEEK: I have no further questions, Judge.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Meek.

5 I have on my list the Nikolic Defence team. Madam Nikolic?

6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

7 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

8 Q. Good morning, sir.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions. First of all, I would like

11 you to clarify one thing for me, and that is your position in the

12 battalion of the brigade. You were the assistant for intelligence duties;

13 is that correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Do you know that the Zvornik Brigade had a separation between

16 security and intelligence and that one person was the assistant Chief of

17 Staff for intelligence and the other person was the assistant for

18 security?

19 A. That body was a joint body at times and at times it was a separate

20 body. I can't be more precise and tell you more precisely when these

21 things occurred in what form.

22 Q. If I told you that in July 1995, Dusko Vukotic was the assistant

23 Chief of Staff for intelligence, and Drago Nikolic the assistant Chief of

24 Staff for security, would you agree with me?

25 A. I know Mr. Vukotic and there is no reason for me not to believe

Page 11439

1 you that that body was split into two parts at that particular moment in

2 time.

3 Q. Then next thing I would like to ask you to confirm for me is this:

4 I would like to go back to the three days in July 1995, in the school and

5 around the school in Pilica. On the 14th, 15th and 16th of July if I

6 understood you well, the way you understood the situation and the efforts

7 to preserve peace and quiet in the village during those days up to the

8 morning of the 16th of July, my impression that arises from the -- your

9 testimony was that your view was that these prisoners would be exchanged

10 on any of these three days; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. This lingered in the air from the moment they arrived. One

12 of the possibilities that remained until their very departure.

13 Q. And as far as I could understand, you and the other soldiers from

14 the battalion were afraid as to what this group of prisoners might do and

15 how they might affect the security and safety in the village. You feared

16 for your family and friends, didn't you?

17 A. Yes. We were afraid that the situation in the school would

18 escalate but we were also afraid of some people who might arrive from the

19 neighbouring shops, drunk and so on and so forth. At any given moment, an

20 incident might have occurred.

21 Q. Were you afraid of what the prisoners might have done as a group

22 if they had left the school building?

23 A. Yes, of course.

24 Q. I would like to discuss the soldiers who escorted the prisoners.

25 On page 11385, on Friday, you explained that they were arrogant, these

Page 11440

1 soldiers, who escorted the prisoners and my conclusion from all that were

2 that you and your colleague from the battalion were absolutely powerless

3 when it came to the actions of these soldiers who escorted the prisoners?

4 A. Around the school, there were some troops from the 1st Battalion

5 but not for a single moment and not for any way could they influence the

6 overall developments.

7 Q. Could they have influenced the behaviour of the escorts?

8 A. No, absolutely not. To be honest, I would rather say that they

9 were afraid of them.

10 Q. On Friday, on pages 1409 and 1410 [as interpreted]. My learned

11 friend from the Prosecution asked you on several occasions about the

12 potential incidents and bodies, whether they existed, whether the

13 incidents happened between the 14th and 16th of July around the school,

14 and your answer was negative to every such question. What I would like to

15 ask you now is this: Would you exclude the possibility that in your

16 absence any of these soldiers did create an incident or maybe even killed

17 a prisoner?

18 A. Madam, I did not see any torture, I did not see any killing

19 committed by these other soldiers. I didn't see any of that, and nothing

20 of the sort was conveyed to me by my colleagues from the battalion. The

21 gentleman from the OTP asked me whether I had seen some bodies on the road

22 that I took every day. I claim that there were no bodies whatsoever.

23 Then he mentioned certain streams or brooks. I did not cross any streams.

24 My concern were the soldiers of the 1st Battalion and the population, the

25 local population, and nothing but that. Whatever bad happened to these

Page 11441

1 prisoners, either around the school or elsewhere, happened at the hands of

2 the soldiers that I didn't know. I claim with full responsibility that

3 not a single soldier from the 1st Battalion did anything bad around the

4 school, in Kula.

5 Q. This is exactly the way I understood you, sir. That's why I would

6 like to ask you this: If something bad happened with those soldiers have

7 reported to you?

8 A. I assume they would have told me, but I also told you what I think

9 about the whole thing.

10 Q. Thank you. During the three days of the events in Pilica and

11 around Pilica, you would come and then you would return. You knew Drago

12 Nikolic. Did you see him or did you speak to him on any other occasion,

13 save for that one telephone conversation that you had on the 14th of

14 July?

15 A. Save for that one telephone conversation, I never either saw him

16 or spoke to him. I claim with full responsibility that at the time when I

17 was at the school, none of the officers from the Zvornik Brigade visited

18 the school in Pilica.

19 Q. Thank you. On Friday, on pages between 11395 and 11397, you

20 testified about your visit to the command of the Zvornik Brigade on the

21 15th of July 1995. In the office of the duty operative officer you met up

22 with four or five officers and you explained what had happened at the

23 time, i.e., that you did not feel that they understood you. My question

24 is this: Did you have an impression that the officers from the Zvornik

25 Brigade could influence that situation in Pilica or were they just

Page 11442

1 observers and nothing more?

2 A. My battalion was the furthest from the command of the Zvornik

3 Brigade. It was about 40 kilometres away from the command of the Zvornik

4 Brigade. In normal times when anybody of us from the command arrived with

5 a certain task it was a normal thing for the duty officer to drop

6 everything and to solve the problem for which we had come to visit in

7 order to allow us to return to our unit as soon as possible. You will

8 agree with me that this was not just an ordinary problem because the

9 problem of prisoners of war demanded a different treatment. Their lack of

10 interest for that situation showed me that this is some -- this was

11 something that they were not involved in.

12 Q. I would like to ask you this: While you were at the staff of the

13 Zvornik Brigade, and when you were talking to these people, did you meet

14 up with Mr. Drago Nikolic at the time? Did you see him? Did you speak to

15 him?

16 A. No. I didn't want to go to see Mr. Nikolic because I knew that he

17 could not do anything about this whole issue. The duty officer at the

18 brigade command is a person who stands in for the brigade commander in his

19 absence and he is the one who can make certain decisions, and that is the

20 only reason why I went to the duty officer.

21 Q. Thank you. Just one more question, please, about the conversation

22 and communication that you had with the officers in the duty officer's

23 office, when one of them approached you with certain comments. Did

24 anybody tell you at the time that you should kill those prisoners in

25 Pilica?

Page 11443

1 A. I believe that I've already said that this was an informal

2 conversation.

3 Q. And did you see that conversation as a way to instruct you to

4 commit crimes?

5 A. No, not for a moment.

6 Q. When you returned to Pilica, you didn't do anything bad to the

7 prisoners, either you or your colleagues from the battalion?

8 A. On the contrary.

9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any more

10 questions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.

12 The Borovcanin team asking to cross-examine the witness for about

13 15 minutes. Mr. Stojanovic, go ahead.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

16 Q. Good morning, sir.

17 A. Good morning, Mr. Stojanovic.

18 Q. I would like to look at some documents with you and ask for some

19 clarifications of the contents of these documents. Can we please look at

20 P1807, the Prosecutor's document, P1807. This is an aerial view of the

21 Pilica hall and the road next to it. Sir, you will see in front of you on

22 the screen in a minute. While this is being done and while we are waiting

23 for this photo, I would like to ask you this: There was a check-point of

24 the civilian police in Pilica, in the course of the war? Sir, can you

25 find your bearings in this photo? And I would kindly ask the usher to

Page 11444

1 help us with marking the photo.

2 Sir, do you see the culture hall in Pilica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please encircle it and above the circle, can you put

5 letters DK, standing for culture hall?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Thank you. Do you know that during the war, in this area, there

8 was a check-point of the civilian police used to control traffic and

9 movement of goods and people and so on and so forth?

10 A. I believe so, but I can't be sure whether it was there all the

11 time.

12 Q. This photo, does it show the place where that check-point was when

13 it existed in the area? Can you see that place in this photo?

14 A. I'm not sure that I can help you with that.

15 Q. Could you please tell us what the tasks were of the civilian

16 police when they manned that check-point?

17 A. Listen, I was a soldier, and the area of responsibility of my

18 battalion involved the area from Medici to Crne Stijene, about three

19 kilometres in depth. Whatever was beyond the three kilometres was under

20 the authority of the civilian bodies of authority. And this included the

21 police, so I would rather not tell you anything about the way they worked

22 and what they did and how they did whatever they were supposed to do.

23 Q. In July 1995, were they anywhere in the area that is depicted in

24 the photo?

25 A. No. I really would not want to speculate about that.

Page 11445

1 Q. Thank you. I would kindly ask you to put today's date, which is

2 14 May 2007, in the upper right-hand corner, and could you also sign this

3 photo?

4 A. [Marks]. Just one sentence, if you will allow me. When I

5 returned from the brigade on the 15th, I would like to show you where I

6 stopped for maybe two minutes from which place I took a look towards the

7 culture hall.

8 Q. Yes, go ahead and mark that place with a cross.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Could you put the date 15 July next to that cross?

11 A. [Marks]. Do you need the year?

12 Q. Yes, please, 1995.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you very much. This is all about this document. Thank you,

15 Madam Usher.

16 Sir, could we now look at P2814, which is your diary?

17 I would like to thank the usher. We won't need her assistance any

18 more, I believe.

19 Can we look at page 3 of the English version, or the last

20 paragraph on page 11 of the B/C/S version, which is page 1047. Could we

21 please look at the last paragraph? Very well. This is it. Thank you.

22 Can we also place the English version next to the B/C/S version?

23 Sir, before our first break, just one question. It says here n

24 the last sentence, "the losses are still not final."

25 Can you see that, sir? "The losses are not final. The police had

Page 11446

1 six dead, the Legend had three. The blue police a few, and also the

2 battalion."

3 Can you see that?

4 A. No, I've not been able to locate that.

5 Q. This is the fourth line from the bottom of the page?

6 A. Yes. I've been able to find it now.

7 Q. It says here, "the losses are still not final." Can you see that?

8 A. Yes, I can.

9 Q. How did you come by this information about the number of people

10 who had been killed?

11 A. At the most topical thing at the time was major fighting that was

12 going on in the vicinity of the brigade command, and this is information

13 that arrived from every day fighting, from the conversations between

14 Mr. Pandurevic and the Muslim commander whose name I believe was Semso

15 Muminovic, and the topic was opening the corridor and the passage of that

16 column towards Tuzla.

17 Q. You say Legenda had three men killed. Who do you mean there?

18 A. I mean a special unit called the Drina Wolves. Whether he was

19 with them or with some other men, I don't know, but I suppose that he was

20 with his own soldiers.

21 Q. When you mean the blue police had several mean dead, who do you

22 mean?

23 A. I mean the civilian police.

24 Q. Thank you. And finally, when you say the police had six men dead,

25 do you mean the special brigade of the police which was at Baljkovica that

Page 11447

1 day?

2 A. I didn't find that. I'm not sure if I meant the civilian police,

3 but probably I did.

4 Q. Do you know that on the 16th of July, part of the Special Police

5 Brigade was involved in combat at Baljkovica?

6 A. Yes, I know that.

7 Q. And do you think that you might be speaking precisely about the

8 losses of that Special Police Brigade?

9 A. Yes, but I cannot be emphatic about that.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC [Interpretation] Maybe this is a good time for a

11 break, Your Honour, because I'll have two more documents.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. If you remember, before the break we were looking at your diary

18 and the number of losses you recorded. During the break, after consulting

19 with our client, and also the Prosecution documentation, 65 ter, I just

20 wanted to ask you, since you allowed the possibility, is it possible that

21 the six policemen you recorded as dead were perhaps members of the

22 military police of the Zvornik Brigade?

23 A. Yes. It's possible that I meant the military police, because the

24 very next line says, "Blue police, several."

25 Q. That is exactly why we wanted this clarified. And we also

Page 11448

1 obtained the names of those men who are unfortunately dead. Let me ask

2 you: Do you know a man called Pero Petrovic?

3 A. Yes. I do. It's a man who used to be president of the local

4 community. He used to be also sometimes engaged in our battalion and

5 sometimes he was relieved of military duty.

6 Q. Are you aware, and do you remember, whether maybe he went with you

7 when you went to visit the command of the Zvornik Brigade?

8 A. He certainly didn't go with me. He may have gone on his own

9 initiative and on his own.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Peric.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

12 questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

14 I have the Miletic Defence team. Madam Fauveau?

15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this

16 witness, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Fauveau. And the Gvero

18 team had indicated that they do not wish to cross-examine this witness.

19 Is --

20 MR. JOSSE: That's not changed.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that leaves us only with the Pandurevic

22 Defence team. Mr. Sarapa, you had asked for 20 minutes.

23 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I will have a few questions for this

24 witness.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

Page 11449

1 Q. Good morning, sir.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. Could we see on the screen 7D493? Could we just downsize it a

4 bit? This is good.

5 This is a section of a map that shows the area of Pilica and the

6 surrounding area. The markings RTI, 34, and RTD 1 at the bottom mean

7 nothing to us. I just showed the map to the witness so that he could draw

8 in certain positions.

9 A. I cannot draw anything on this map. If you can enlarge it a bit,

10 perhaps.

11 Q. Could we accommodate the witness and enlarge it, please? That's

12 too much. This is all right. Leave it that way.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It may be all right for you, Mr. Sarapa, but I very

14 much doubt it's going to be all right for the witness. It's not all right

15 for me. I can barely see a thing.

16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I think some things are visible.

17 We'll see if the witness will be able to show us. I think it's legible.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The previous image was clearer.

19 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

20 Q. All right now? Can you see it now?

21 A. I think this will do.

22 Q. Could you please, the usher will give you something to use as a

23 pen. Can you draw, please, the lines of defence of your battalion, the

24 way they were in July 1995?

25 A. Here on the right-hand side we were at the boundary of Tursanovo

Page 11450

1 hill.

2 Q. Can you draw a line?

3 A. This is our separation with the East Bosnian Corps. Our line went

4 from Medici, the Dzamija road, Popova Kosa, and ended with Crne Stijene.

5 Q. Now could you show us on this map where was your command post?

6 A. The command of the balloon was in a house in Manojlovici village.

7 Q. I don't know if we can see it on the map. Could you mark next to

8 the line you drew LO, which means "linija odbrane," defence line, and

9 place a K next to Manojlovici?

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Do you see Teocak village here?

12 A. Yes. It's here.

13 Q. Could you use another colour for Teocak?

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Whose forces were next to Teocak? Who populated the village in

16 majority?

17 A. Muslim forces were there ahead of our forward defence line.

18 Q. Could you show us Rastosnica and Laze villages?

19 A. I'm not sure I can see them on this map.

20 Q. Look below Teocak.

21 A. Yes. Rastosnica is here. [Marks]. And Laze --

22 Q. Look a bit further up. Do you know that these villages were

23 burned down, the Serb villages?

24 A. I think the population was expelled. There was no more Serb

25 population there.

Page 11451

1 Q. Next to Laze and Rastosnica, would you please the letters SST,

2 which would stand for, "burned down Serb villages"?

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And next to Teocak, please MS.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Can you find Kula on the map?

7 A. Yes. Here is the school at Kula. The same colour?

8 Q. No. Use another colour and make a little --

9 A. [Marks]

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please get closer to the

11 microphone, please?

12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. And the letter, "sh," s with a diacritic.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you. Now that you've marked this, could you just place your

16 initials at the bottom in the right corner on the map?

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And today's date.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Could we just move the map a little to the left?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do I take it that you haven't finished with this map

22 as yet? Because we were about to store it.

23 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, but I would just like to see

24 whether it's possible to write --

25 Q. Make a little cross next to Branjevo.

Page 11452

1 A. I can see Branjevo on this map. You don't need to move it.

2 Q. And now, use the red pen to write after this RTD 1, "1 PB," the

3 1st Infantry Battalion.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Thank you. We can store this now.

6 Could we now see 7D155?

7 You have already told us that in July 1995 you had an insufficient

8 number of soldiers in trenches.

9 A. Yes. You can see that in my diary, where I gave the example of

10 three or four different groups that were in the field at the time.

11 Q. Now, look at this document. Could we raise it a bit so we can see

12 the bottom line?

13 A. I can see now.

14 Q. Now, look at this. It says, "1st Infantry Battalion, 25 soldiers,

15 1100 hours, to be sent to Kamenica. Djevanje Rijeka settlement." It says

16 at the top, "Act on Obrenovic's instructions."

17 Tell me, do you agree that this entry about sending 25 soldiers to

18 the area of Kamenica, 25 soldiers from the 1st Battalion, this was done on

19 the orders of Dragan Obrenovic?

20 A. I believe that alongside the group that went to Srebrenica, at

21 some point they asked for another 25 soldiers to make ambushes somewhere

22 in that area, but I cannot be certain whether we actually sent them,

23 because of the problems I've already mentioned. I'm more inclined to

24 think that this group that was in Srebrenica returned to Zvornik on the

25 15th, I believe, and was kept for a day or two in that area.

Page 11453

1 Q. Would you agree that it is not that group, because this entry

2 dates back to the 14th of July?

3 A. I'm sure that they requested these men, but I'm not sure that we

4 were able to send them this number of soldiers.

5 Q. Could we now see document P --

6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Sarapa, did you tell us what this document is

7 about? Whose writing is this?

8 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] It is a working notebook of the duty

9 operations officer.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we now see document P2814?

12 That is the witness's diary. And could we have page ERN number 03271047?

13 Could you scroll it up a bit so we can see the second half of the page?

14 Thank you.

15 Q. Now, counting from the bottom, line 15, where it says, "Around the

16 15th of July, one platoon went to set up an ambush near Kamenica and

17 stayed there for three days." Can you see that?

18 A. Yes, I can, and it's probably the answer to your last question.

19 Q. So could we agree that that was the platoon that executed the

20 order of Dragan Obrenovic to send those men?

21 A. Yes. I can agree with that.

22 Q. Could we now see document 7D159, also a working notebook.

23 We can read here, look at the top of the page, "TG, from Pelemis.

24 There are problems with personnel."

25 You can see that, I suppose?

Page 11454

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you agree that the said entry relates to the problems you had

3 in raising those 25 men that Obrenovic requested from your battalion?

4 A. I think I've spoken about this more than once. That's not in

5 dispute.

6 Q. So your answer is yes?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell me, do you know who Dusan Jokic is?

9 A. I'm not sure.

10 Q. Never mind, then.

11 Did you hear that at that time, in July, related to the Srebrenica

12 events, Commander Pandurevic ever issued an order that no prisoners should

13 be taken, that all prisoners should be killed?

14 A. Never, absolutely never.

15 Q. Since you were assistant commander of that battalion for security,

16 do you believe that such an order, had it ever been issued, would have

17 come to your notice?

18 A. Certainly. The commander of the brigade would send that order

19 down his own chain of command, and in addition, I would receive

20 information about that problem from Mr. Nikolic, down another line.

21 Q. Next to the school in Kula, did you see Radivoje Lakic during

22 those days?

23 A. Absolutely not. That man was seriously ill, an agronomist by

24 training, and he was assigned to another job. He had no business there.

25 Q. Can you see -- did you see Jevto Bogdanovic near that school?

Page 11455

1 A. I'm certain that I didn't see him during the period I was there.

2 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions for you. Thank you for

3 your answers.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Sarapa.

5 Is there re-examination, Mr. Vanderpuye?

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: There is, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay go ahead.

8 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: As long as we have what we have on the screen in

10 EDS and -- in e-court, I'm sorry. Okay.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Could I call up P377, please, in e-court?

13 Okay. I'd like to go to page 142 of the B/C/S version, which should be

14 the same as the page that was previously on the screen, and page 23 of the

15 English version, if we could have that up, please. Okay. Can we scroll

16 down just a little bit? All right. Can we try paging forward one page,

17 please? Okay. Now I think we can scroll down.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the problem, if I may ask?

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm just trying to locate the English translation

20 of the document that my learned friend, Mr. Sarapa, just used a moment

21 ago.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We had it before on a split screen, so what's the

23 problem? I mean --

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. All right.

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 11456

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We can proceed with this one, I

2 guess. I think it's page 24 is the English translation of this document

3 and we'll see if we can work on the other one after. Okay.

4 Q. Do you see this on the screen, Witness, this document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If I could just refer your attention to the entries made in

7 relation to the 1st Battalion, do you see an entry relating to the 50

8 litres of oil and 20 litres of gasoline for the transport of troops to

9 Kula? Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And do you also see an entry relating to ten crates of

12 7.62-millimetre ammunition, relating to the 1st Battalion?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, are you aware of whether or not those entries were made in

15 respect to the activities of your battalion at the school on the 15th of

16 July?

17 A. I don't think I'm the right person to answer this question;

18 however, I can give you a sentence or two. Since I was at the school, it

19 is certain that I did not ask for anything myself. As for the deputy

20 commander who was in the battalion command, I can't speak for him. But

21 there is a possibility that one of the people who were not there asked for

22 those things and that the duty operative officer entered the request, as

23 the request coming from the 1st Battalion.

24 Q. Now, you also mentioned previously, with respect to 7D159, which

25 was, I believe, an entry of the duty officer logbook that was shown to

Page 11457

1 you, it was shown to you by my learned friend, Mr. Sarapa.

2 JUDGE KWON: Before that, Mr. Vanderpuye, can you confirm the date

3 of this entry in this logbook? Can you see it somewhere?

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Just a moment, Your Honour.

5 If we could scroll up.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you have to go to the previous page.


8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic?

9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, this was

10 on the 16th of July 1995.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.

12 Can you confirm that, Mr. Vanderpuye?

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I can't, and I would like to see it -- I would

14 like to have it on the screen so that we can all see it. I would just

15 like to locate the page if I may have just one moment. Okay. I think we

16 can find it on page 16 of the English version.

17 JUDGE KWON: We have to go back eight pages.

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's page 135 of the B/C/S version. I believe we

19 do have the date displayed on the screen.

20 Q. Do you see that, Witness, the date of the entry relating to the

21 question I just put to you?

22 A. Yes. I can see the date.

23 Q. Can you just state for the record what that is?

24 JUDGE KWON: So we have to make sure there is no change of date

25 between page 16 and 24.

Page 11458

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I notice two things, Mr. Sarapa on his feet. Let's

2 start with -- yes, Mr. Sarapa?

3 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] When it comes to the date, we are

4 eight pages back. We have to make sure that this is the date in question.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what we are trying to do. The only thing is

6 that I had understood Ms. Nikolic's contribution to indicate that the date

7 was the 16th, while here it looks as if it is the 15th. So if anyone can

8 help us see clearer, I think it --

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think if we can go forward, we can establish

10 the date from which the 16th entries occur, and I understand we'll find

11 that ten pages in advance of the page we are currently on. So we've gone

12 eight pages back, we'll go ten pages forward, and we should find the 16th.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's, to be doubly sure, go page by page. I mean,

14 it's not time wasted, definitely. Okay, go ahead. All right. Go ahead.

15 Okay. Go ahead. This is where we were when we first started. Go ahead.

16 Yeah, and we come to the 16th on this page.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. I hope that satisfies my colleagues.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic, do you agree it's the 15th that we are

19 talking about? According to the diary, any way. I mean --

20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the entry on the

21 previous page, you can see that the first entry is on the 16th at 6.00.

22 So it is very difficult to say whether the time before midnight or after

23 midnight was entered as the 16th here, because you see here that this

24 entry was made at 6.00 in the morning so it's very difficult to define the

25 time. But if we want to be very formalistic, it may well be the morning

Page 11459

1 of the 16th. I will allow for that possibility.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I got your point.

3 Yes, Mr. Meek?

4 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I just wanted to point out that your

5 comment on line 17 of page 32, you indicated that according to the diary,

6 any way, and I don't believe this was a diary.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Okay. Okay.

8 MR. MEEK: Just for the record.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

10 Yes, point made by Ms. Nikolic is that if the entry referred to

11 any time past midnight, it would still come under the 16th even though it

12 shows up before the first entry for the 16th. So this is basically when

13 she is saying and I'm not going to comment on that, obviously.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: We do plan to elicit further testimony on this

15 specific issue. Just for the record, though, I think it's fair to say

16 that the entry to which the witness's attention was directed precedes the

17 date as indicated in the logbook of the 16th of July and falls within the

18 time frame of the dates, the 15th and the 16th. Just so that we are in

19 agreement, I think, on the record as to what's contained in the logbook

20 entries.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, he's up again.

22 Mr. Sarapa.

23 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I would just like to emphasise once

24 again that before the 16th, here we have an entry that was made at 6.00,

25 6.30, all after midnight, 6.35. And finally the 16th of July. And even

Page 11460

1 where it says the 16th of July, the first entry is at 7.20. On the 15th,

2 we have entries for the events that happened, as it arises from what is on

3 the screen, not on the 15th but on the 16th, at 0600 and 0630. This is

4 after midnight, which means that these things happened on the 16th of

5 July. There is no doubt about that.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Sarapa. I don't think there is

7 going to be agreement between the two sides so let's proceed.

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. You indicated earlier upon some questioning by my learned friend,

10 Mr. Sarapa, that there was an entry, 7D159, if I could have that displayed

11 on e-court? So the English translation, I think, is on page 13, and the

12 B/C/S is at 132.

13 You had indicated, upon questioning about this document, that

14 there was some indication that there was some difficulty getting people

15 together, troops together, from the 1st Battalion. And that was to go to

16 participate in ambushes. Do you recall that testimony?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, is that a specific entry in this logbook?

19 A. I don't know how to answer your question. I'm not clear what you

20 want from me.

21 Q. Okay. Well, did you see that particular entry relating to the

22 difficulty in rounding up men to go to participate in ambushes in this

23 particular document?

24 A. If you mean what it says here in the upper part of the page?

25 Q. Yes, yes. Do you see in there a specific reference to difficulty

Page 11461

1 with personnel as concerns the participation of those personnel in

2 ambushes?

3 A. I believe that I've spoken about that on several occasions, and

4 that there is no dispute about that.

5 Q. Well, was it the case that there was difficulty rounding up men

6 from the 1st Battalion to go and guard or provide security for the school

7 at Kula?

8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I've already spoken about the problems that

9 prevailed in the 1st Battalion at the moment when the battalion commander

10 was not there. I have to tell you that my commander was a courageous and

11 brave man. He went everywhere, wherever actions were taking place. From

12 Banja Luka to Sarajevo, he would be there, and whenever he left the

13 brigade commander during that time was supposed to send an officer either

14 because he knew that there were a lot of problems there. On one occasion

15 it was Milan Martic who died a few days ago. On another occasion, it was

16 Mihajlo Galic. On a third occasion it was Dusko Vukotic. And this

17 repeated on several occasions, which means, pursuant to the orders of a

18 superior command, you do things, you don't ponder upon things. If my

19 commander had been in the unit, he would have displayed his authority.

20 When he received an order from the brigade commander on two or three

21 occasions, he telephoned the brigade commander to explain to him that our

22 unit was not capable of performing the task, and then the brigade

23 commander would assign that task to another unit. I repeat:

24 Unfortunately, during this particular period of time relevant to my

25 testimony, the battalion commander was not present in the unit.

Page 11462

1 Q. Okay. Perhaps my question was rather inartfully phrased so let me

2 try it a different way. What I want to know is whether or not this entry

3 that you see in front of you, whether or not that entry relates to the

4 provision of men for the purpose of ambushes or the provision of men as

5 relates to providing security for the school, if you can tell that from

6 this specific entry.

7 A. I can't give you a precise answer as to what this referred to

8 exactly.

9 Q. Now, you've testified on cross-examination in response to some

10 questions put to you by my learned friend Ms. Nikolic, about the ability

11 of you and your men to take action with respect to what was going on at

12 the school. Now, with respect to that, my first question is: What effort

13 did you make to do anything about what was going on at the school, if any?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic? And Mr. Sarapa? Ms. Nikolic

15 first.

16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, within the scope of my

17 cross-examination, I have never put any question to the witness about the

18 actions that were undertaken with regard to the events in the school and

19 around the school. My questions were relative to the relationship between

20 the battalion troops and the troops that escorted the prisoners, and the

21 Prosecutor has already put enough questions about this specific subject

22 and has already received the answers that they wanted.

23 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I would like to join my learned

24 friend Nikolic and I would like to add that on several occasions, the

25 witness has already said it that they couldn't do anything. I will

Page 11463

1 paraphrase him by saying that they were just the silent observers of

2 everything that was going on.

3 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, we would also join on that. It's asked

4 and answered and outside the scope of cross-examination.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Now, in line 20, I think we

6 need to make a small adjustment to indicate that it's Mr. Sarapa because

7 he started speaking before Ms. Nikolic had even finished saying --

8 finished her statement.

9 So, now you have three guns pointing at you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

10 What's your position? It's been suggested that you have more or less

11 built on a premise -- built your question on a premise that is incorrect

12 or does not reflect the line of questions that Ms. Nikolic had put to the

13 witness and which he had answered.

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. With respect to the

15 submissions of my learned friends, I think on several occasions during the

16 examination that was conducted by Ms. Nikolic, the witness indicated

17 that -- he even went so far as to suggest that his men were afraid of

18 the -- the other soldiers that were there, that they were afraid of the

19 prisoners, and to that extent, in addition to the soldiers that were

20 there, and my question is to ascertain -- and that's the reason -- let me

21 just rephrase it. That they were afraid of these soldiers that were

22 there, that they had no ability to control the events as they unfolded

23 there, and that that's the reason why they didn't take any action with

24 respect to what was going on there. So my question is specifically put to

25 that issue, which is what actions, if any, they had -- they did undertake.

Page 11464

1 And I think it's responsive -- I think it's responsive to the issues that

2 were developed on cross-examination.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa? Mr. Sarapa first and Ms. Nikolic

4 afterwards. Yes, Mr. Sarapa, go ahead.

5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I believe that this question

6 shouldn't be put because the witness has belaboured on the point of what

7 had been done. He went to the brigade command for a specific reason which

8 was to deal with the problems, to ask for assistance. In other words, he

9 has answered that question already, more than once.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic?

11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

12 like to go back to the question that my learned friend has put to the

13 witness on page 37, lines from 19 to 23. And in conclusion, my learned

14 friend says that because of the entire situation, the troops of the 1st

15 Battalion could not control the situation because they feared both the

16 escorts and the prisoners and they did not take any actions. If the

17 witness stated then, that, then I'm really not clear why my learned friend

18 is now putting the question to the witness as to what actions were

19 undertaken since the witness has stated clearly that they didn't do

20 anything.

21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think the specific question that was put by my

22 learned friend was on -- it's on page 14, looks like line 14.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly, I mean but any way, let's conclude on

24 this. Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye, page 14?

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Line 14, the question was what I would like --

Page 11465

1 with respect to the answers that the witness had given concerning the

2 conduct of his men or inability to act, my learned friend asked

3 specifically, "What I would like to ask you now is this: Would you

4 exclude the possibility that in your absence any of these soldiers did

5 create an incident or maybe even killed a prisoner?" And the answer to

6 that question was a rather long answer but it didn't effectively answer

7 the question, essentially said that he did not observe any torture or any

8 killing that was committed by these other soldiers.

9 I think that my question is relevant because the witness has

10 testified that they didn't engage in any action, he was specifically asked

11 whether or not he could exclude the possibility that in fact they did, and

12 that's the reason why I'm asking the question.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this point has already been covered,

15 Mr. Vanderpuye. Please move to your next question.

16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Now, the capacity in which you were acting at the time while you

18 were at the school, if you had become aware of information regarding the

19 mistreatment or killing of prisoners, did you have the authority or the

20 ability or responsibility to arrest or intercede or act to prevent that --

21 prevent that from occurring?

22 A. I believe that I was very precise when I spoke about the events

23 that took place around the school. There is no doubt, and I repeat that

24 there were a few soldiers from the 1st Battalion there. And I repeat, not

25 for a moment, not in any way could we have influenced the developments.

Page 11466

1 The people who were there, whom I didn't know, could, at any point, do

2 whatever they wanted and that would be my answer to your question, sir.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I noticed you at one point standing, Mr. Sarapa, but

4 the witness had already started --

5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] After the answer I've just heard,

6 there is no point in me raising any objections.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

8 Next question, Mr. Vanderpuye? What are you waiting for?

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm just rereading his answer to make sure I

10 don't repeat.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, okay.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.

13 Q. You made no effort to arrest anybody based on what you knew and

14 what you observed; is that reasonable?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic? One moment before you answer the

16 question. Ms. Nikolic and Mr. Sarapa. Ms. Nikolic first.

17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, asked

18 and answered. Second, this is a leading question. The witness already

19 explained everything in his own words. I believe this question is

20 superfluous and is leading the witness.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa?

22 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I join in what Mrs. Nikolic said.

23 That's precisely what I meant to say.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye?

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'll rephrase the question.

Page 11467



3 Q. You indicated earlier in your testimony that part of your

4 responsibility or duties as an assistant commander for security,

5 intelligence, was to report to the battalion commander deficiencies that

6 you observed or misconduct. Is that fair?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic?

8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this goes beyond the

9 scope of cross-examination.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it's a question that is being put as a prelude

11 for the next question. So we have to hear the next question. First he

12 answers yes or no and then we hear the next question, and probably we'll

13 find more objections and then we decide.

14 Yes, Witness, you need to answer this question. You are being

15 asked if it is correct that earlier on in your testimony, you stated that

16 part of your responsibility or duties as an assistant commander for

17 security, intelligence, was to report to the battalion commander

18 deficiencies that you observed or misconduct. Do you agree with this

19 statement?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I remember correctly, when I was

21 answering the question concerning my duties and responsibilities, I did

22 say that, but I'll repeat: 95 per cent of my activities boiled down to

23 daily inspections of the forward defence line, reporting to the commander

24 about any deficiencies I noticed, in order for the commander to be able to

25 take steps.

Page 11468

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And your next question, Mr. Vanderpuye?

2 Thank you, Witness.


4 Q. Did you have that responsibility with respect to what you observed

5 or knew about during the time that you were at the school?

6 A. I don't know what you mean. Not specifically.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, did you still have that

8 responsibility to report to the battalion commander deficiencies that you

9 observed while during the time that you were at the school? Did you still

10 carry those responsibilities with you at the time?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have said that the battalion's

12 zone of responsibility was as I described it. Anything outside that area

13 of responsibility fell within the purview of civilian authorities. And

14 the school was located in an area beyond our zone of responsibility.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Any further questions, Mr. Vanderpuye?

16 MR. VANDERPUYE: One last question, Mr. President.

17 Q. Witness, with the resources that you had that were available to

18 you at the school -- with the resources that were available at the

19 battalion, were those sufficient to control the situation at the school?

20 A. No, absolutely not. We were not instructed to check or control

21 anything around the school. But let me emphasise again: Our troops had

22 no combat experience whatsoever. Persons who had any experience had been

23 sent to three or four locations on the front line. The rest that remained

24 with the battalion was practically unusable.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Witness. I have nothing further.

Page 11469

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

2 Yes, Ms. Nikolic?

3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. With the

4 Chamber's leave, I have just one question that arises from the

5 cross-examination of my colleague, Mr. Sarapa, page 28, lines 8 to 17. It

6 concerns the order of Commander Pandurevic that was never carried out. So

7 lines 8 to 17, but especially 15 to 17 with references to Mr. Nikolic on

8 page 28.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You have our permission to proceed, Ms. Nikolic. Go

10 ahead.

11 Further cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Just one question, Witness, that will hopefully clarify your

14 answer to my colleague Mr. Sarapa. When he asked you whether you

15 remembered whether Commander Pandurevic ever issued an order, meaning that

16 the prisoners should be killed, back in July, you said no, such an order

17 was never issued or sent down, and you also said that, had it been, you

18 would have heard about it from Drago Nikolic down another chain of

19 command. My question is whether you had ever received such information

20 from Drago Nikolic along the lines of my colleague's question, namely that

21 prisoners should be killed.

22 A. Absolutely not. My only contact with Mr. Nikolic was that

23 telephone call on the 14th of July.

24 Q. No information, that means no order to you or your battalion

25 commander?

Page 11470

1 A. Absolutely not.

2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

3 more questions.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, yes, Mr. Sarapa?

5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Just another follow-up question from

6 the redirect.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Follow up question following what?

8 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Well, the Prosecutor's question

9 concerning the people at the school, if you would allow me just one

10 question.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We are not going to allow you, neither one nor

12 more questions, Mr. Sarapa. We need to move. It's not the practice that

13 we continue as if it's a ping pong game because next thing, Mr. Vanderpuye

14 will want more questions and we'll continue like that.

15 So witness, we don't have any further questions for you, which

16 means that your testimony ends here. You've been very patient with us.

17 On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over

18 to give testimony, and I also on behalf of everyone wish you a safe

19 journey back home.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for those good

21 wishes.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic?

24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just noticed one

25 mistake in the transcript. It's page 43, line 14. I really am not sure

Page 11471

1 that I said "down another chain of command." I meant down another line.

2 I -- I'll try to have this error removed.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: In any case, you were referring to page 28. So

4 whatever is there is -- but point taken. You don't need to worry about

5 this, Ms. Nikolic.

6 So now, documents, Mr. Vanderpuye? Yes?

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. We have only P02814,

8 which at this point we would offer in its entirety since extensive use was

9 made of it on cross-examination. I think it would be appropriate to put

10 the entries in context in light of the entire document.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections to that? We hear -- yes, spoke too

12 soon.

13 Mr. Bourgon?

14 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President, can my colleague just

15 confirm what are the dates that are enclosed in that full document and

16 whether we have a full translation for all of these dates?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good point. Good point.

18 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye? I suppose you need a little bit of time to

19 answer that question.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do. Thank you, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, the Borovcanin Defence team wishes

22 to tender the photo that was marked by the witness, and it will be given

23 4D IC 00108. Any objections? I suppose none. So that document is being

24 so admitted.

25 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?

Page 11472

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have no objections.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Meek?

3 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour, is Mr. Vanderpuye requesting the

4 diary -- this witness's diary be put in evidence? Is that correct?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's according to what I read here, is attachment A

6 to OTP's interview statement dated the 10th March. That is a notebook

7 containing a diary calendar for the year 1991 and handwritten notes,

8 particularly 03271047 to 1048. This is what I have. Now, if this has

9 been updated -- if this has been updated, what certainly has been updated

10 is that it seems that he wishes to tender the entire notebook because he

11 said that a lot of reference was been made to this document. So I think I

12 am still awaiting -- we are still awaiting for his answer to

13 Mr. Bourgon's --

14 MR. MEEK: Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I know as much as you know on this.

16 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. From what we have been able to ascertain,

18 the diary contains entries from 28th February 1995 through October 10 --

19 through January 10, 2000.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and what are you seeking to admit? I mean this

21 is what Mr. Bourgon basically wants to know, and Mr. Meek, and I suppose

22 everyone else.

23 MR. VANDERPUYE: We are seeking to admit the book itself, the

24 physical document that contains the entries that have been referred to

25 in -- both by the Prosecution and the Defence. It's a physical -- it's

Page 11473

1 the physical book itself.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any objection to that? Obviously -- yes,

3 Ms. Nikolic first.

4 MR. MEEK: I apologise, Your Honour -- I'm sorry, Ms. Nikolic, go

5 ahead.

6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the book has not been

7 translated. Only five or six pages have been translated, the ones that

8 were used in court today either by the Prosecution or in

9 cross-examination. So the Defence would not object to the pages that have

10 been translated and have been used.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye, just to have a final clarification,

13 you have only - and others - only made use of these five pages from the

14 entire book, haven't you?

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, that's true, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So why should we have the rest if it hasn't been

17 made use of?

18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think also it puts it in context, because some

19 questions were put to the witness about the order in which the entries

20 were made themselves. I don't know whether or not it can be generalised

21 to the entire document itself.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We will admit these five pages only. If at any

23 later point in time you need to make further reference to this book and

24 you wish to tender it, we'll deal with that at the time.

25 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

Page 11474

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, Mr. President, I'm putting Mr. Vanderpuye

2 in a bad spot. As you can see we are talking to him and giving him

3 advice. We merely have asked that to be in evidence because, as you know,

4 there is a reburial operation, September, October. I would have thought

5 the Court, the Defence, would want to look at those entries. There is

6 nothing in those entries that we see, but if anyone is curious about that,

7 I think it's relevant. That's why. But if -- we are fine with the pages

8 you have but that's -- that's why. We don't want to bring this fellow

9 back to have him talk about those things. But there is nothing in there

10 so we are fine with the ruling but that's the only reason why we offered

11 the whole thing.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. No. We stay with the five pages,

14 Mr. McCloskey, and Mr. Vanderpuye. Saving what I stated earlier, that if

15 there is a future need to come, to revisit this document in its entirety

16 we'll do that but not at the time being.

17 Is there any other Defence team that wishes to tender any

18 documents? Mr. Zivanovic, Mr. Meek? Mr. Sarapa?

19 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to tender 7D155,

20 just one page of the working notebook, with an English translation

21 provided. Then 7D159, another page of the same notebook with an English

22 translation. And 7D493, the map marked by the witness today. That's my

23 third document.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection from anyone? Prosecution and other

25 Defence teams?

Page 11475

1 Mr. Vanderpuye?

2 MR. VANDERPUYE: There is no objection.

3 JUDGE KWON: My question is whether P377 has been admitted already

4 or not in its entirety.

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: My understanding is that it has.

6 JUDGE KWON: If the entire book has been admitted already, what is

7 the point of admitting one page of it separately?

8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Well, I don't --

9 JUDGE KWON: I'm asking in general.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I was just going to respond to Judge Kwon's

12 question. I don't think there is a special need to admit the page over

13 and above the document that's already in.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you and with Judge Kwon. On certain

15 instances we have done that. We have allowed that, though it was the

16 exception rather than the rule basically. So I wouldn't break

17 Mr. Sarapa's heart, if he is so keen on having these pages, two pages,

18 admitted into evidence separately. If you're not too keen, then you may

19 withdraw your request and we'll leave it at that.

20 Yes, Mr. Sarapa?

21 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Not insisting, no.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Then if you're not insisting, I think we drop them

23 and we stick to P -- exactly, the marked map, 7D493, if I am not mistaken.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be 7D IC 109.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. That brings us to -- yes,

Page 11476

1 Mr. Bourgon? Always on the same witness, Mr. Bourgon or --

2 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

4 MR. BOURGON: It's just an observation concerning the last

5 decision of the Trial Chamber to admit those five pages of this document.

6 I note for the record, Mr. President, that this document was not on the

7 Rule 65 ter list for the Prosecution. If they are going to use any such

8 documents, they should seek leave to have this document added to the Rule

9 65 ter list before they do so. And the status of this document being a

10 diary, I mean, we have a statement that was given to us or an interview.

11 This was an annex to the interview but there was no number. And this

12 document should not be admitted unless they first ask for the document to

13 be added to the list. And then we -- then we are on notice that this is a

14 document that may be -- may be filed into evidence. Now, the Trial

15 Chamber has rendered a decision, and we have no problem with the decision,

16 but the Prosecution must comply with Rule 65 ter in the future. Thank

17 you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]. I apologise. Was the

19 interview statement itself, the 10th March 2003, included in the 65 ter

20 list or not?


22 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it wasn't. So, I mean, I just want to make sure

23 that it wasn't.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, it was not but I would also just

25 point out for my learned friend that the diary was essentially made use of

Page 11477

1 on cross-examination in this case, to the extent that there was any

2 examination on the diary itself that I can recall that I did, it would

3 have been on redirect and I don't believe that I did. So the only -- so

4 the only use that's been made of the document itself has been by the

5 Defence in this case.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's true, Mr. Vanderpuye, but it's

7 also true that you had indicated it in -- as your exhibit or the sole

8 exhibit that you had in mind to tender in connection with this witness.

9 So I think we can leave it at that. Point taken, Mr. Bourgon, and I'm

10 sure this is not the last time that we have encountered this problem but

11 let's do our utmost to try and limit cases or eliminate them if possible.

12 So are we ready to bring in the next witness? Yes, we can have

13 the break now, if you wish to have the break now.

14 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I was about to make that suggestion.

15 I think it will make life easier for everyone.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yeah, so we will have a 25-minute break

17 starting from now. Basically we'll start again just before quarter to

18 1.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to address the Chamber before we usher

22 in the next witness or not?

23 MR. THAYER: No preliminaries, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And no preliminaries on the part of the

25 Defence either?

Page 11478

1 Just putting a simple question: Is it also one of those cases

2 where we should alert the witness to Rule 90(E) or not?

3 MR. THAYER: Not in this case, Mr. President, thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought so but since the information that we have

5 at our disposal, which is in any case very scanty, I'm never really in a

6 position to know. All right. So where is Madam Usher? She went to fetch

7 the witness, okay.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning or good afternoon to you, sir.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to welcome

12 you to this courtroom. You're about to start giving evidence. Before you

13 do so, you're kindly asked to enter the solemn declaration -- make a

14 solemn declaration that is required by our Rules. The text is being

15 handed to you now and that is tantamount to a solemn undertaking that you

16 will be testifying the truth. Go ahead, read it out aloud and then we can

17 proceed.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.

23 Mr. Thayer will be putting some questions to you, and he will then

24 be followed by the various Defence teams on cross-examination. I don't

25 know if we'll finish today, most likely not, but Mr. Thayer you may

Page 11479

1 proceed.

2 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Examination by Mr. Thayer:

4 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Would you please state your name for the record.

7 A. Milanko Jovicic.

8 Q. And how old are you, sir?

9 A. 60.

10 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber where you were born and raised,

11 please?

12 A. I was born on the 26th of January, 1948, in Zivaljane [as

13 interpreted] village in Rogatica municipality. I was raised in Rogatica,

14 and since -- between 1962 and 1992 I resided in Gorazde. From 1993 --

15 actually, since 1993, I've lived in Zvornik.

16 Q. And, sir, you identify yourself as a Bosnian Serb by ethnicity; is

17 that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And can you just briefly tell the Trial Chamber what is your

20 educational background, please?

21 A. I completed grammar school in Gorazde, the school of electrical

22 engineering in Sarajevo, I have a bachelor's degree in electrical

23 engineering from the University of Sarajevo.

24 Q. And you've been primarily employed in the field of

25 telecommunications; is that correct, sir?

Page 11480

1 A. Since 1980, I've been employed in telecommunications, until this

2 day.

3 Q. Sir, what I'd like to do briefly is just to review with you your

4 military service history.

5 And if anything I summarise is incorrect or needs elaboration,

6 please feel free to do so. Okay?

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. You were mobilised into the VRS in December of 1994?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. From that time until the end of June 1995, you served in the

11 Zvornik Brigade as chief of communications?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, at sometime at the end of June 1995, you were demobilised.

14 Could you tell the Trial Chamber, please, just briefly why you were

15 demobilised?

16 A. I was demobilised because a professional officer was appointed as

17 chief of communications, and by this, my post was discontinued, because I

18 was a civilian. I had not served in the army, but since I was an expert

19 in telecommunications, I had been appointed as chief of communications and

20 I indeed served as chief of communications during that particular period

21 of time.

22 Q. Okay. And approximately two weeks later, you were mobilised

23 again; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us why you were mobilised again in early July of

Page 11481

1 1995?

2 A. Because the chief of communications was supposed to go on duty

3 with the brigade, so I was temporarily engaged in order to cover for the

4 functioning of communications in the Zvornik Brigade.

5 Q. And what was that particularly -- particular duty or operation,

6 sir, that called the chief of communications away?

7 A. It was the operation involving Srebrenica.

8 Q. Now, sir, during the time period after you were brought back in

9 early July of 1995, can you tell the Trial Chamber what your position was?

10 A. I acted as chief of communications in the Zvornik Brigade.

11 Q. And during this period of time, did you also, from time to time,

12 serve in another capacity within the brigade?

13 A. I was also assistant duty operative officer of the time. That was

14 my assignment from time to time.

15 Q. Now, sir, did you hold a rank in either position, that is the

16 chief of communications or in your role as assistant to the operations

17 duty officer?

18 A. I did not have a rank. I was a foot soldier. I did not have a

19 military rank.

20 Q. And it's correct, sir, that you served until approximately

21 December of 1995, basically through the end of the war?

22 A. Well, yes.

23 Q. Now, sir, when you were chief of communications, prior to being

24 demobilised, who was your direct superior?

25 A. Dragan Obrenovic, who was the chief of the brigade.

Page 11482

1 Q. And, sir, when you say chief, are you referring to Chief of Staff?

2 A. Yes, the Chief of Staff of the brigade, Dragan Obrenovic.

3 Q. And when you were remobilised in early July, who was your direct

4 superior at that time?

5 A. Obrenovic was commander, but, again, he was my direct superior

6 because he acted in both positions, so I was again subordinate to him.

7 Q. And when you were serving as chief of communications, did you work

8 out of a particular office?

9 A. I had an office, yes.

10 Q. And where was it located?

11 A. Across the corridor from the office of the operations duty

12 officer. Not directly across but somewhat to the side but in the same

13 corridor.

14 Q. And is this at the Standard barracks of the Zvornik Brigade?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. And just briefly, was the office on the ground floor or on the

17 first floor, sir?

18 A. On the first floor.

19 Q. And this might be a little obvious but when you were working as

20 the assistant to the duty officer, did you work in a particular office at

21 that time?

22 A. I worked from the office of the duty officer. A duty officer has

23 to sit in the office dedicated to the duty officer and he must not move.

24 He must not leave that office while he's on duty.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions about the general role and

Page 11483

1 responsibility of the duty officer in a moment, sir, but while we are

2 talking about the actual office can you please just describe how the

3 operations duty officer office was set up? What type of equipment was in

4 it?

5 A. There was a telephone, a land line, civilian land line telephone.

6 There was also a telephone used for extension. And there was --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last type of

8 telephone?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The interpreters didn't catch up what you said

10 about the type of telephone. The answer, what we have is, "There was --

11 there was a telephone, a land line, civilian land line telephone. There

12 was also a telephone used for extension. And there was" -- what else was

13 there?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An induction telephone, a field

15 telephone that the troops used when they go into field. It doesn't have a

16 bell but a handle that is turned in order to start a call.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


19 Q. And, sir, when you're referring to a telephone used for extension,

20 are you referring to a military phone that's connected to a switchboard?

21 A. We had a switchboard in the Standard barracks, and that

22 switchboard was connected to extension lines, and those were connected to

23 the telephones in the offices of the officers.

24 Q. And just to complete this thought, sir, when you refer to in the

25 offices of the officers, are you referring to officers within the Zvornik

Page 11484

1 Brigade or both in the Zvornik Brigade and outside of the Zvornik Brigade?

2 A. Those extensions were in the offices of the officers of the

3 Zvornik Brigade, but not only of the officers but also of everybody who

4 was in the barracks of the Zvornik Brigade. In other words, those who

5 were in the barracks could be connected via the extension lines.

6 Q. Now, sir, I would ask you to just take a few moments and explain

7 to the Trial Chamber what the position of the operations duty officer

8 entailed.

9 A. An operations duty officer is tasked with registering every call

10 that comes in, and also to register what is being said during such a

11 telephone conversation. They have to register who called and who the

12 called person was. If a message needs to be conveyed, then the duty

13 operations officer conveys such a message to whomever is necessary.

14 Q. And, sir, when you refer to every call that comes in, are you

15 referring to both calls from within the brigade coming in as well as calls

16 from outside the brigade coming in?

17 A. All calls coming in and reaching operations duty officer. They

18 are all registered, both from within the brigade and from outside the

19 brigade.

20 Q. Sir, you referred to the task of registering every call. Did the

21 duty officer maintain any written record or log of some kind of the phone

22 calls and the subject matter of the calls as they came in during each

23 shift?

24 A. The calls were registered in the logbook of the operations duty

25 officer, and those calls referred to the requirements in the battalions,

Page 11485

1 the situation in the battalions, the development -- developments in the

2 battalions. Those calls came from the information centre. All this came

3 through the switchboard in the Standard barracks and reached the desk of

4 the operations duty officers.

5 Q. And just one other question, sir, before I forget: You're

6 familiar with the IKMs, or the forward command posts, of the brigade, sir?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And how would the Standard Brigade maintain contact with the IKMs?

9 A. There were two types of connections. One was a wire connection,

10 from the IKM to the switchboard in the brigade. That was a wire

11 connection. Up there, they also had a field switchboard. This could also

12 be used to establish communication. And if those lines were interrupted,

13 there was also radio connection.

14 Q. Now, sir, just back to the role and responsibility of the

15 operations duty officer, how long was each shift for the duty officer?

16 A. A duty officer was on duty for 24 hours; however, it is impossible

17 for one man to maintain that duty around the clock. That's why he is

18 assigned an assistant, and the assistant is on duty while the duty

19 operations officer is asleep, or if he has to go somewhere, then it is the

20 assistant who takes his stand.

21 Q. And was there, sir, a particular time period during which the

22 assistant to the duty officer would typically work while the actual duty

23 officer was sleeping?

24 A. Customarily, it was between midnight and until 6.00 or half of

25 6.00 the following morning.

Page 11486

1 Q. And I think you alluded this -- to this already, sir, but during a

2 given shift, who would physically be in the operations duty office?

3 A. Only and exclusively the operations duty officer.

4 Q. Now, you described the book in which these calls and the subject

5 matter were recorded, but would the events of a previous shift be orally

6 communicated to the brigade command each day?

7 A. An operations duty officer has to brief the commander in the

8 morning after the end of his duty, because if there is an urgent need for

9 a battalion to be deployed, then a decision can be made -- made urgently.

10 In other words, after the end of his shift, every morning the duty

11 operations officer has to brief the commander of what had happened during

12 his shift.

13 Q. And, sir, when you refer to the commander, are you referring to

14 the brigade commander?

15 A. Yes, the brigade commander.

16 Q. And from what level of the brigade's officers would the operations

17 duty officers be drawn?

18 A. Operations duty officers were higher ranking officers that were

19 billeted in the barracks of the Zvornik Brigade, in the Standard barracks,

20 and I was on duty because I was the chief of communications. In other

21 words, the chiefs of various branches, assistants for various duties, were

22 assigned as operations duty officers. In other words, they are all

23 higher-ranking officers.

24 Q. And, sir, why was this position entrusted to these higher level

25 officers as opposed to non-commissioned officers or lower level officers?

Page 11487

1 A. In my view, because this was a highly sensitive duty that carried

2 a lot of responsibilities and it had to be carried out responsibly.

3 Q. Now, sir, at this time, I'd ask that P00377 be brought up on

4 e-court, and with Madam Usher's assistance I'd like to show you the --

5 well, I'll just show you an exhibit, the physical exhibit.

6 This is not the document with the page hanging by a -- a hanging

7 chad.

8 Sir, I'd ask you just to take a look at the item that's before

9 you, and, if you would, just flip through the pages and I would ask you if

10 you recognise what that item is.

11 A. This is the duty officer's -- duty operation officer's book.

12 Q. And if we may turn to page 154 on e-court of the B/C/S, and that's

13 page 35 of the English.

14 Sir, you're going to see, I hope, an image on your screen in a

15 moment. And if that's -- if we could scroll down to the bottom of the

16 page, please, and sir, if it's easier for you to look at the original,

17 there is a yellow sticky on the page that I believe is also that same page

18 before you. But can you -- that's fine. Thank you.

19 Thank you, Madam Usher.

20 Okay. I see that you're -- you're looking at both the screen and

21 the original document. Do you recognise your handwriting on this page

22 that's before you?

23 A. I see at the bottom of the screen, below 005, my handwriting

24 begins.

25 Q. Okay. And would you please just read the first line of the text

Page 11488

1 that you identify as being your handwriting, sir?

2 A. "Acquainted the commander of the R Battalion with the order."

3 Q. And is there a time that you've noted next to that entry, please?

4 A. It says 0005.

5 Q. Now, I know you've been shown these pages and you've had an

6 opportunity to review this document previously. Do you recall who was the

7 duty officer during this shift that's captured here and on which you've

8 made some entries?

9 A. I didn't remember because I didn't recognise the handwriting;

10 however, when I gave my statement, they told me it was Trbic, because 12

11 years is a lot of time and I'm not good at identifying handwritings.

12 Q. Okay. Do you recall what Mr. Trbic's position in the brigade was?

13 A. If I remember well, he was assistant Chief of Staff for security.

14 Q. Now, if we may turn to the next page, that's page 155 of the B/C/S

15 and page 36 of the English, and again, sir, do you see a new image on your

16 screen?

17 A. I see half the page.

18 Q. Okay. If it's more legible for you to look at the original

19 notebook, please feel free to do that. I just want to turn your attention

20 to the entry for 0445 hours.

21 A. Duty operations officer called Zlatar, and I informed him that

22 there had been no problems during the night, and "the situation is

23 business as usual."

24 Q. And, sir, what is your recollection as to what the term "Zlatar"

25 refers to?

Page 11489

1 A. If I remember correctly, Zlatar was the secret code name for the

2 headquarters of the Drina Corps.

3 Q. And, sir, as you sit here, do you recall what the code for the

4 Main Staff was?

5 A. Vaguely, because code names changed, but I think it was Panorama.

6 Q. And do you recall what the code for the Zvornik Brigade was?

7 A. I don't, honestly I don't. I seem to remember, in fact the word

8 "Badem" springs to mind but I can't be sure.

9 Q. Okay. Now, the entry that you just read, the call from, you

10 recall, Zlatar, being the Drina Corps, was that typical of the types of

11 contacts that were made from the outside into the Zvornik Brigade?

12 A. Well, as a rule, situation was supposed to be reported on a

13 regular basis, but if any problems occurred on the -- in the area of

14 responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade, they checked on the situation in

15 brigades, just as the duty operations officer checked on the situation in

16 battalions, because, you see, at 0500, "situation in battalions checked,"

17 it's business as usual, which means that I did check what the situation

18 was in battalions.

19 Q. And if you would look at the entry for 0535 hours, please? And

20 just read that, if you can read what you wrote.

21 A. "Duty operations officer of Zlatar called. Trbic needs to call

22 back."

23 Q. And if you would read the next entry, please? At 0540 hours.

24 A. "At 5.40, Galic to call the chief at the forward command post.

25 Completed." The chief was Dragan Obrenovic.

Page 11490

1 Q. And if you would please read the last entry that you have there on

2 this page?

3 A. "1st Infantry Battalion asks whether building machinery has been

4 secured. Situation is normal. Trbic needs to call back."

5 Q. Now, I see a particular term that -- that you've written down in

6 this entry, sir, and forgive me if I don't pronounce it well, but the

7 word, "gradjevinski," can you tell the Trial Chamber in your experience

8 what types of machines or machinery does that word refer to?

9 A. The call from the 1st Infantry Battalion did not specify which

10 construction machinery was meant, but we understand that to mean

11 excavators, bulldozers and such.

12 Q. Now, the entry, sir, at 0535 hours says, basically Trbic has to

13 call, and the last entry more or less says, Trbic to report. Do these

14 entries jog your memory at all about how you may have recalled that Trbic

15 was the duty officer during this period of time?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?

17 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I object to that question

18 because this witness has already said that he doesn't -- didn't remember

19 who the duty officer was and that they told him who it was when he had the

20 interview. Now, the Prosecutor hasn't gone further yet and asked who they

21 are who told him it was Trbic, and I object to that question because he's

22 already answered he didn't know who it was.

23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if I may, I --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

25 MR. THAYER: I don't recall that being the testimony of the

Page 11491

1 witness. I believe the witness said he wasn't sure, but that during the

2 interview he told the OTP investigators that his recollection was

3 Mr. Trbic, but I just wanted to --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that the discussion ought to continue

5 in the presence of the witness in the first place. That's number 1.

6 Secondly, let me consult with my colleagues.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 MR. MEEK: May it please the Court, you might look at the page 62,

9 the answer starting at line 2, 3, and 4.

10 MR. THAYER: Yes, my learned friend is correct. I misrecollected

11 the testimony, Your Honours. I think the question is still a fair

12 question to find out whether this is consistent with his recollection that

13 he -- or with what he's testified about.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?

15 MR. MEEK: Well, Your Honour, I don't believe that's fair at all

16 by Mr. Thayer. It's very clear that the witness said he didn't remember,

17 he had no recollection, he didn't recall the handwriting, and that "they

18 told me it was Trbic."

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fair enough. But the question that

20 Mr. Thayer is trying to put now is somewhat different, given what you have

21 already stated, given what the witness himself has already stated, now

22 he's being referred specifically to this entry and he is being asked

23 whether this helps him in any way to jog his memory. In other words, does

24 he still remain the same position as he was before and referred to the

25 duty officer upon the suggestion of the Prosecution, or does now this

Page 11492

1 entry help him to jog his memory and tell us whether now he remembers.

2 This is basically the difference between the previous question and

3 statement and answer and the present one. So go ahead.

4 Witness --

5 MR. MEEK: Judge, Your Honour, with all due respect, I believe

6 Mr. Thayer is misleading the Court, especially at page 64, lines 19

7 through 22, where he says I don't believe the witness said that he wasn't

8 sure but during that interview he told the OTP investigator that his

9 recollection was Trbic when in fact the witness has already said he didn't

10 recall and that they told me. I don't know if they want to mislead you

11 that's fine.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No. This is -- I would temper a little bit the

13 language that you tend to use sometimes, Mr. Meek because when you use

14 such language, you are attributing bad faith to Mr. Thayer, and I would

15 seriously object to that.

16 MR. MEEK: I certainly attribute bad faith to Mr. Thayer if he

17 simply said he made a mistake, but if you read the record, Judge.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

19 Sit down, Mr. Meek.

20 Go ahead and repeat your question, Mr. Thayer, or rephrase it.

21 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Your Honour.

22 Q. Sir, the entry at 0535 hours says that Trbic has to call, and the

23 last entry you read refers to Trbic having to report. My question is:

24 Having read these two entries, does that jog your memory at all about who

25 the duty officer was on this shift or are you still at the point where the

Page 11493

1 only recollection you have of Mr. Trbic being the duty officer was what

2 the OTP told you during your interview? That's the question.

3 A. Well, after all my talks with the investigators, I remembered it

4 was Trbic. But the first entry saying he should report means he should

5 report to the duty officer of the Zlatar, and the second entry means he

6 should report or rather call back the brigade. There were two different

7 addresses [as interpreted] that he was supposed to call.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's make this clear. There was one stage where

9 you were still uncertain in your mind as to who the duty officer was; is

10 that correct?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I talked to the investigator,

12 when he showed me the handwriting and asked whose handwriting it was, I

13 said I don't remember. And then when he said it was Trbic's handwriting,

14 then I remembered that I was Trbic's assistant that evening.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Now, we -- may we look at the next page of this document, that's

18 page 37 of the English and page 156 of the B/C/S, please?

19 Sir, do you see a new image if front of you on the computer?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Now, do you see a date that's written in the upper right-hand

22 corner, and, if you do, can you just read what it is into the record?

23 A. "17th July 1995."

24 Q. And do you recall whether there was any procedure regarding how

25 the date of each shift was to be recorded in this notebook or logbook?

Page 11494

1 A. At the beginning of a shift, the date should be written, and every

2 duty operations officer when he begins he writes the date.

3 Q. Okay. So in your experience, this entry, July 17th, 1995, was

4 entered at the beginning of the shift on the day of -- sometime on the day

5 of July 17th, 1995; is that -- am I understanding you correctly?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Now, based on the hours that you testified that you would

8 typically work as the assistant to the operations duty officer, that is

9 from midnight to 6.00 in the morning, is what you're telling us that you

10 wouldn't write down the date necessarily at 12.01 in the morning of July

11 17th you would wait a few or a few hours would pass, and then the actual

12 duty officer who came on duty would make an entry at the point where the

13 duty officer came on later in the morning? And if that question made no

14 sense to you, please just let me know and I'll rephrase it.

15 A. The question is clear. It was not the practice when you finish a

16 shift -- I mean it was the practice when you finish a shift, you would

17 turn over the duty, and my shift obviously finished around 6.00 because

18 you don't see any more of my handwriting. The person who took over wrote

19 the date and started making his own entries.

20 Q. So based on the date that's shown on this page, can you just tell

21 the Trial Chamber what date it was when Mr. Trbic first started his duty?

22 A. Well, Trbic took over on that day when I was his assistant. It

23 should be the 16th, although I don't see it here. When I finished my

24 shift, and he took over, he continued to make entries.

25 Q. Okay, sir. I don't think I have any further questions for you

Page 11495

1 right now. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Thayer.

3 I have several of the Defence teams that wish to cross-examine

4 this witness. Who is going first? We have got ten minutes or just less

5 than ten minutes.

6 Mr. Zivanovic?

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We will not cross-examine this witness,

8 Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Ostojic or Mr. Meek?

10 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Given the time

11 and the fact that we are going to be visiting with our client, I would

12 like to start tomorrow with what I've heard today on direct.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Is there anyone who can cross-examine this

14 witness in eight minutes? None. Let's go through the list again. The

15 Nikolic team, will you be cross-examining this witness? Madam Nikolic?

16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Borovcanin, you've said no.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, we will not cross-examine this witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Miletic?

20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, we have no

21 questions.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Gvero?

23 MR. JOSSE: No.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And Pandurevic?

25 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] We will.

Page 11496

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. More or less, you know where you stand.

2 I think we need to stop here today. Agreed? Agreed? And you need to

3 have the next witness prepared for tomorrow because I reckon we will be

4 less than one hour with this witness tomorrow morning.

5 MR. THAYER: He's ready to go, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So we stand adjourned, to

7 tomorrow, 9.00.

8 Now, Witness, before you leave this courtroom, as you see, we

9 haven't finished with your testimony today. We'll finish tomorrow. But

10 between today and tomorrow, it's important that you do not communicate

11 with anyone on the matters that you are testifying upon. Is that clear?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's clear.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of May,

16 2007, at 9.00 a.m.